The Talk Show

84: ‘Doctoring the Ball’ With Guy English


00:00:00   Boy, I really had a hard time getting my handle on WWDC.

00:00:04   Still do.

00:00:05   Two weeks later, it still feels like a lot to digest.

00:00:09   There is a lot.

00:00:10   There's a lot.

00:00:11   So there's a lot of technical stuff.

00:00:12   Yeah.

00:00:13   Huge amount of technical stuff.

00:00:15   And then there's the entire sort of cultural change.

00:00:18   Yeah.

00:00:20   Have you watched a lot of sessions in a week since or caught up or read the developer documentation?

00:00:27   Yeah, I've been absorbing as much as I can. Yeah.

00:00:30   Impressive. I literally don't know where to start.

00:00:34   Well, here's what I would think. I think I mentioned this, you know, the whole thing is a goddamn blur, what I mentioned on stage, on the stage show, which was the previous episode.

00:00:42   But I think I mentioned this, but I think it deserves even more attention because I think even more of it than I understood the day after the keynote.

00:00:50   So much of what they announced technically comes down to XPC.

00:00:57   Yes.

00:00:58   Right?

00:00:59   Yeah.

00:01:00   And we've known, you know, and that's Apple's term for interapplication communication, right?

00:01:05   The X, I guess, is...

00:01:07   Yeah, it's a nice framework based on mock message passing.

00:01:12   Okay.

00:01:13   And they've been working on it for a long time.

00:01:17   time. And I think you guys mentioned this on the debug round table, which was amazing

00:01:25   to me because you guys had like six guys in there. And it really was like an orderly discussion

00:01:31   where everybody got to speak plenty.

00:01:34   Yeah, it was kind of surprising. We were all in the same room though. So that helps.

00:01:41   You know, that makes all the difference in the world because you can do little things

00:01:43   like you make eye contact and that's like I've got a point you can kind of like, you

00:01:47   know, like, hey, I've got something and people can concede to you. Whereas if you're all

00:01:51   over Skype, it's a lot more crosstalk. Yeah, I'm sure during this show, I'm gonna end up

00:01:57   talking over you at some point. Well, that's why I have you here guy. Exactly. But yeah,

00:02:01   no, it went really well. And I'm not just saying that because it's it's our show. But

00:02:06   you know, I think listeners to your show would probably get a kick out of that one. Right.

00:02:09   One of the points that was brought up, I think it was Ryan Nielsen brought up that outside

00:02:15   developers have known for a while that Apple had this XPC architecture and was using it

00:02:22   for their own stuff in the system because you can see it in like the stack traces you

00:02:27   get when an app crashes.

00:02:28   You can see that stuff's going on.

00:02:30   Yeah, like if you're being on various share sheets, like the mail one, I think, or the

00:02:35   Facebook sharing stuff.

00:02:36   Yeah, like Facebook and Twitter.

00:02:38   Yes.

00:02:39   - Yeah, stuff like that will come up

00:02:40   and what's happening is in your process

00:02:42   there's a UI remote view controller it's called.

00:02:45   And that's basically just basically a canvas

00:02:48   in which some other processes interface gets projected

00:02:51   into your app.

00:02:52   And previously, if there was a bug or something

00:02:57   that you would crash and you'd see a stack trace

00:03:00   of all of the private goodies that went on behind the scenes

00:03:03   in order to make that happen.

00:03:04   - So we knew that stuff was going on

00:03:06   And you could see, you know, you didn't have to be a genius.

00:03:09   If you knew that was going on,

00:03:11   and you could see that that's how Apple implemented

00:03:14   the Twitter and Facebook sharing,

00:03:16   then you could kind of think,

00:03:17   well, then that could be an API

00:03:19   so that anybody could get into that share sheet.

00:03:23   And we all kind of hoped that

00:03:25   that was gonna happen last year and didn't.

00:03:27   - Well, the reason for that is like,

00:03:30   it had been at least two operating systems

00:03:32   that XPC had been in there.

00:03:35   Right. I think it was Iowa six where some of that stuff, the sharing stuff started,

00:03:39   right?

00:03:40   Could be, but I think XPC was even in five.

00:03:42   Well, then it's three, right? Five, six, seven before they opened it up to third parties.

00:03:47   Yeah. Now, and to be, I don't, I don't actually believe XPC itself is yet open to third party,

00:03:52   so I can check.

00:03:53   No, but they've

00:03:54   The stuff on top of it, right?

00:03:56   Exactly. Right. Like that. They're, they're building all this stuff on top of it and that's

00:03:59   how the keyboards, you know, all this crazy stuff, well not crazy, but all this seemingly

00:04:05   divergent stuff like the sharing sheets and keyboards and I'm pretty sure the new web

00:04:16   kit, there's an all new web kit API and we went all the long time where when Apple switched

00:04:22   to the JIT, the Just-In-Time compiler, which requires memory being marked as executable,

00:04:29   therefore didn't allow it for the third-party WebKit framework, that only Safari got to

00:04:34   use the faster WebKit. And they didn't slow down third-party WebKit. They just didn't

00:04:41   let third-party apps that embed WebKit use take advantage of the new thing, which is

00:04:46   a subtle difference, but it's, you know.

00:04:47   It is. It's kind of funny. Like, yeah, it's not that they slowed it down. They just sped

00:04:50   their own thing up. But a lot of people took it as that they slowed us down. And that was

00:04:56   not the case. Right. And the security thing. I'm pretty sure that that's x PC, too, right.

00:05:02   So it's, it's not that they know the way that they've done this, and that they've given

00:05:07   all apps that that use the new WebKit API, the fastest WebKit on the system is not by

00:05:13   having WebKit running within your app anymore. It's a separate process. And much like Safari

00:05:20   has been on the Mac for a while where you've got these separate rendering processes in

00:05:26   a restricted sandbox that only do the rendering and then they project their view into the

00:05:32   app through XPC.

00:05:33   Right. So, and so for now for new WebKit on iOS, the reason that they allow the just-in-time

00:05:42   to compiler is because you're completely shielded from your app. Like you see the results presented

00:05:47   in your application. But malicious code can't.

00:05:51   Right. The actual rendering process is a separate process. It's not just like a plugin or whatever.

00:05:58   Yeah. Same thing with the keyboard. So it's, you're right. The big story is XPC. So one

00:06:08   of the things I was saying maybe last week was, I think everybody's going to be talking

00:06:12   Swift a lot but the the big story is basically the extensions and XPC and

00:06:17   what that allows it right to you know to happen now and and in the future and

00:06:23   it's you know a very Apple like way of doing it I mean we repeat ourselves

00:06:30   frequently we're you know so many times there's you know here's what we want

00:06:35   Apple please let us do this and then they listen to it and they think about

00:06:40   about the actual problem and then they solve it

00:06:42   in a way that we didn't expect.

00:06:44   Right, where everybody I think really was saying,

00:06:46   what we want is we want that super fast JavaScript engine.

00:06:51   And Apple didn't give it to us because,

00:06:55   or let third parties use it because of the security issues.

00:06:58   But they figured out a way to give it to us

00:07:02   without having it running in the process.

00:07:05   Same thing with keyboards.

00:07:07   - Yeah.

00:07:07   It's that measure twice cut once kind of philosophy,

00:07:12   where I think they look at the actual problem to be solved

00:07:15   and try to come up with a solution for it

00:07:17   rather than sort of cave to like, well, okay, fine.

00:07:20   We'll let you run some JavaScript in your app.

00:07:23   - There were rumors two years ago, a year ago,

00:07:25   man, I think it might've been last year,

00:07:26   but it was previous WWDC and there were rumors.

00:07:29   Somebody had reported that there were going to be

00:07:30   third-party keyboards announced

00:07:32   and it came and went and they weren't announced.

00:07:36   And I spoke to somebody from Apple, a friend in a position

00:07:41   to know.

00:07:42   And they were like, no, it definitely

00:07:45   wasn't going to happen that year.

00:07:47   But they had looked at it extensively.

00:07:51   They knew an awful lot about how it worked on Android.

00:07:54   And this person was like, you wouldn't

00:07:58   believe how it works on Android.

00:08:00   It's more or less just a remote key logger.

00:08:02   And some of them send every single key

00:08:06   you press up to a server because they're doing server-side stuff, and that there's nothing

00:08:11   you can do as a user to stop it. You install this thing from the Play Store, and everything

00:08:16   you type could be being sent to a server.

00:08:19   That's bananas.

00:08:20   And in some cases is, not necessarily that it is, that they're doing anything malicious

00:08:25   with it, but that they're doing it for QA or for some kind of server-side stuff.

00:08:31   For whatever reason. Yeah, you don't even need to believe that they're bad actors. Just

00:08:34   that the fact that the system can be exploited,

00:08:38   it's just bad design.

00:08:41   - Right, and they were like, I mean,

00:08:43   we're looking at it, but I mean,

00:08:44   there's no way we're gonna do it if it works like that.

00:08:47   - Right.

00:08:48   So the custom keyboards, guess what you can't do?

00:08:54   You can't use them to type into a secure text field.

00:08:57   - Ooh, interesting.

00:08:58   - Yep, because when you think about it,

00:09:01   that just makes sense.

00:09:02   So whenever you tap into a secure text field,

00:09:04   either like UI kit style or on the web you get switched to one of the system

00:09:11   keyboards hmm I understand that but then I guess that defeats one of the ideas

00:09:16   that a bunch of us like last week were banding about that it would be a cool

00:09:22   idea for one password to have a custom keyboard I guess that rules that out for

00:09:27   them I mean they still have a cool app for iOS yeah but I we were you know just

00:09:31   bouncing ideas we had the idea well what if they made a keyboard yeah I'm sure

00:09:35   they'll come up with some way of making it nice and because you can't have the

00:09:40   keyboard so up until you put the password in you can have your custom

00:09:44   keyboard so maybe you can see what site you're on and just copy the copy the

00:09:50   password to the to the pasteboard so you can paste it in yeah something like them

00:09:53   you know they can do something but when you do think about it it's like well

00:09:57   yeah it kind of makes sense to only trust the system to handle those kind of

00:10:03   events right yeah secure entry yeah I think so I think it kind of does what

00:10:11   else what was the other kind there's the keyboards there's the sharing extensions

00:10:17   there's this stuff in the today screen oh right yeah and that's the same thing

00:10:23   where those are like their little, more or less, little standalone applications that

00:10:28   run in a different context instead of running as regular apps in the system. They're like

00:10:35   little mini apps that run in that notification center context.

00:10:40   Yeah, and it's far more than less. So what they are is like little bundles that sit inside

00:10:46   your app bundle.

00:10:48   And I don't want to get too techie, but inside an app, you

00:10:54   usually specify the principal class, like the class, the

00:10:58   Objective-C class that's going to be loaded and run.

00:11:00   And it's a UI application class on iOS, or

00:11:05   a subclass of it.

00:11:08   For these bundles, rather than it being an application that

00:11:15   is sort of the root object.

00:11:17   It's just a view controller.

00:11:20   So these are little apps that just load up.

00:11:24   Rather than booting up an entire application instance,

00:11:26   they just load up a view controller instance.

00:11:30   And from there on in, you're running in your own code space.

00:11:33   You've got pretty much all of the facilities that you would

00:11:36   have in a regular app, modulos and differences.

00:11:44   And it's, you know, that the space that you're given is yours to play with.

00:11:49   It's, you have an app and you can do whatever you want in it.

00:11:52   It's not like you're just pushing some XML description language stuff to the screen and

00:11:57   the system's doing it. It's like an honest to God, full on application.

00:12:02   Yeah, that's kind of amazing. And it's, again, sort of a,

00:12:10   like a recurring theme is it's that they've given us more than we expected.

00:12:14   I would not in a million years have expected that. No. The APIs are interesting too because when you

00:12:22   start up one of these extensions it tells you what size you're going to be and they make no

00:12:31   promises about you know aspect ratio or anything they're just going to give you a size and so in

00:12:37   theory down the road they could be putting these I don't know like on the

00:12:41   iPad they could make them huge or they could do different stuff in there man

00:12:44   are they the same are the notification I this is something I don't know it's

00:12:49   still on my like list I haven't watched the notification center sessions yet but

00:12:52   it are they the same for Mac and iOS or you have a very similar very similar but

00:13:03   But it, you know, but you wouldn't, because you don't have fat apps that one dot app bundle

00:13:08   that runs on both Mac and iOS, it doesn't really matter if they're exactly the same,

00:13:13   but they're a lot more similar than say, a Mac app and an iOS app are.

00:13:21   Oh, yeah.

00:13:22   Yeah.

00:13:23   Well, I mean, ultimately, you still got to do that.

00:13:25   You're doing UI code at some point, right?

00:13:27   So that that's divergent.

00:13:28   But the structure and the idea and the notion is basically identical.

00:13:34   These things were not developed in the old fiefdom system of like, "Here's OS X and

00:13:41   here's iOS and maybe once every few years we'll try to sync some stuff up."

00:13:44   These were clearly done together as one.

00:13:48   And in fact, the core technology is from the CoreOS group.

00:13:53   So I think Colorize drove the XPC and that kind of side of stuff.

00:14:01   And then the various framework groups built on top of that.

00:14:03   But I think we're going to end up overusing this word, but clearly there's a lot of

00:14:08   collaboration going on there.

00:14:09   Yeah, that's sort of the key word, like the central part of the post-WWDC essay that

00:14:16   I published today.

00:14:17   Well, recording today and Friday.

00:14:19   I don't know when the show's going to air.

00:14:21   But that collaboration press release from October 2012 when they announced the sort

00:14:26   of reorganization that Forstall was gone and Federighi was taking over all engineering

00:14:31   and Johnny Eivald design, we're clearly seeing that that was not just an empty, you

00:14:38   know, let's put a positive spin on an ugly infighting that's been put to an end. It

00:14:44   was an actual statement of intent.

00:14:46   Yeah, you know, it's funny you actually you you often make that argument that Apple just says what they're like when they do say something

00:14:53   They just say it straight

00:14:54   Yeah

00:14:56   But but even that one like that that memo

00:14:59   Or that that press release, you know people were kind of second-guessing wondering if they if exactly what they meant

00:15:06   But no turns out that's what they meant. They wanted to increase collaboration. And here you go. Here's the results of that

00:15:15   It's fascinating. And they've done a terrific job.

00:15:16   Right. I think it's a trust but verify situation.

00:15:19   I'm not putting it past them that someday they'll,

00:15:21   they'll find themselves in some sort of hole where they have to lie or,

00:15:26   you know, you know, white lie or whatever you want to say.

00:15:32   Just put a spin on something and that what they put out is a misdirection.

00:15:35   I think you could certainly say that they did that with a lot of the things

00:15:39   that they had to say about Steve Jobs's health in the last few years, right?

00:15:44   that that was not straightforward.

00:15:46   And it's an exceptional situation.

00:15:47   It was obviously up to Steve, and Apple PR

00:15:51   had to more or less play along.

00:15:53   So there's a good example of some press releases

00:15:57   or official statements from Apple

00:15:58   that were not straightforward.

00:16:00   - I also think that's kind of fair enough.

00:16:01   It's a little bit salacious to be digging into--

00:16:03   - Right, it was very, very personal.

00:16:06   And maybe one more, and maybe one that wasn't

00:16:08   quite so personal, but that was an ugly situation

00:16:11   comes to mind was the stock options backdating. Now that's going back, I think, a decade.

00:16:16   I mean, you're talking about 2005. But that they skated very close, you know, maybe went

00:16:21   over a line and, you know, were in a situation where they couldn't be straightforward.

00:16:26   Yeah, that seemed to be like dirty pool for sure.

00:16:28   But an awful lot of the time, yeah, hindsight proves that they're actually pretty straightforward.

00:16:35   And I think that it's showing that that's clearly the case. And that collaboration,

00:16:39   like you said, that it's a core OS effort.

00:16:44   It's at the framework level.

00:16:47   It's not about iOS.

00:16:49   iOS and Mac OS X haven't really gotten any closer

00:16:52   to each other.

00:16:53   They're not, from a user perspective,

00:16:56   from an interface perspective,

00:16:57   there's still no touch on the Mac.

00:17:00   Changing the system fonts to match each other

00:17:04   is Helvetica NUIA is not, that's cosmetic.

00:17:07   It's not technical.

00:17:08   But the frameworks have, they've really done a massive job of getting as many of the frameworks

00:17:15   that could be shared between them to be shared between them.

00:17:18   Yeah.

00:17:19   You know, anything that doesn't touch the UI is pretty much equivalent on either of

00:17:26   the platforms.

00:17:27   You know, there's caveats here and there.

00:17:30   But you know, like AV Foundation, all of it, the video playback stuff, certainly a lot

00:17:35   of the core UI stuff, and foundation itself.

00:17:38   Yeah, AV Foundation is probably the first one I can remember. Boy, it was a long, it

00:17:43   was a couple years ago, definitely. Maybe two years ago, I forget, was when it first

00:17:47   came out. Maybe it was three years ago. That's the first one that might have been a sign

00:17:51   of things to come, even though, you know, it was before this, you know, the October

00:17:56   2012 reorganization. But AV Foundation was one I can remember where they were in the

00:18:00   session. You know, I was in the session and it was clearly a unification between Mac and

00:18:05   iOS.

00:18:06   Not only that, it stomped on QuickTime.

00:18:08   Right, which was kind of unimaginable. You know, a number of years ago. Yeah, could be quick time being a crown jewel of the company. Right? I think they learned from it. It wasn't like that they, you know, threw it in the garbage, but that they more or less said, you know, you've got to start over. Yeah, quick times what 89 kind of thing like, it was like 91. But close, it was probably they probably started work on it in 89 or 90. And I remember running literally, like, posted

00:18:37   stamp-sized movies on my Mac LC and being amazed.

00:18:42   Yeah, this is the best thing ever.

00:18:44   Yeah, I think like a very...

00:18:46   They were like what we would now use as like animated GIFs that fit on a line of text.

00:18:51   They were maybe like, I don't know, 80 pixels by like 120 or something.

00:18:55   But it would peg your CPU too.

00:18:56   Oh, absolutely. And drop frames.

00:18:59   Yeah, you'd get like, you know, 12 frames per second or something.

00:19:04   256 colors?

00:19:05   Yeah, but you'd have, you know, you'd have a video playing on your computer. It was amazing,

00:19:09   which was pretty cool. Actually, wait, did Max do 256 colors with a color palette? Or did you

00:19:15   just go 16 bit? No, mine had 256 colors, you had to have a better video card. And then they went to

00:19:22   that they used to call it thousands of colors. That's it. Yeah, they had a mode, which was,

00:19:28   I think, what would it have been? It would have been like 16,000 colors.

00:19:33   65536. Yeah, exactly. But instead of giving you that number, they just called it, it was very

00:19:40   Apple. They just called it thousands. Yeah. And that was what that was, you know, if you had a

00:19:45   good, good video card. I'm trying to picture a Mac with a 256 bit color palette. How did that work

00:19:50   with different applications? Man, I wish SirQsa were here. I remember it because I had it for

00:19:58   years and years, there was a standard system palette of 256 colors, but an app could change

00:20:06   that. And it was a certain ResEdit resource type where you would more or less just give

00:20:16   the system a two. Here's the 256 colors I want in RGB. So for example, I remember I

00:20:25   like a, it wasn't called PGA golf, I forget, but I had a golf video game that I was totally addicted

00:20:31   to in college. And I remember looking, it was like a klut, I think it was a C L U T resource. I

00:20:38   forget what that stood for. Yeah, color lookup table. Yeah, that's it. That's it. It was a

00:20:42   klut resource. And I remember being curious one time and I looked at it and they, of course,

00:20:46   they had like out of 256 colors that had like, I don't know, 180 shades of green.

00:20:52   and a couple of pinks so you could wear like obnoxious golf shirts and stuff.

00:20:56   But then you'd see like some weird flashing if you switched between two apps like that.

00:21:05   Okay, yeah, that's what it is. That's what I was curious about. Because in the background,

00:21:09   the other app, there's one palette for the entire screen. So if you've gotten one image

00:21:14   with a nice palette, like the other one is just gonna look like garbage.

00:21:17   Yeah. And so I seem to recall mostly it was for games, though. So you wouldn't notice,

00:21:21   Right. Most apps wouldn't switch it. And I guess if you were looking at like an image

00:21:25   editor or something with, you know, in a regular not full screen mode, you know, with with

00:21:30   Windows overlapping, it would make Windows in the background from other apps look, you

00:21:34   know, all sorts of goofy. Yeah. But goofy was sort of the name of the game back in those

00:21:40   days. Yeah, it somehow didn't really strike strike me as all that, you know, it seemed

00:21:45   it seemed understandable. It was gross, but it was like, well, of course, because there's

00:21:48   - That's right.

00:21:49   - And sometimes you need more than eight shades of green.

00:21:53   - Exactly, for golf.

00:21:56   Okay, memory lane.

00:21:59   What were we talking about?

00:22:02   The iOS extensions, right?

00:22:04   - Yeah, well, let me take a break

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00:25:05   So Jeter is a baseball player. Yeah, Derek Jeter. Yeah. Yeah. So I hear he's a play for

00:25:12   the vet socks, isn't it? Well, he's in Brazil right now playing in the World Cup. Nice.

00:25:22   You know, I saw I saw a thing we we have so much tech stuff to talk about. But I know

00:25:26   you're a fan of the football. Um,

00:25:28   "Kotke" linked to a cool thing the New York Times had showing the history of the World Cup soccer balls.

00:25:33   I was just looking at it. It's great. Oh my god. It's so great. I gotta link that up.

00:25:37   The first the first one looks like a medicine ball. It looks like a misshapen American football.

00:25:43   Yeah, you know that somebody took a US football and just pumped it up until it went round.

00:25:48   Like it's it's crazy.

00:25:52   I I guess I did because I've never I mean I'm you know a sports fan, but I'm not a soccer fan

00:25:58   I

00:26:00   had always assumed that the soccer balls that from like the 70s that iconic black and white sort of

00:26:09   checkered pattern octagonal

00:26:11   checkered pattern

00:26:14   That was the way they always looked but it wasn't it was really just like a brief period

00:26:18   In our youth when they looked like that

00:26:21   Yeah, but to me I

00:26:22   You know basically same age. Yes that exact look that 70s checkered look that's soccer - yeah

00:26:29   Did you like these new soccer balls? I don't I think that they're they're messing around with them too much. Yeah, I totally agree

00:26:35   No, I think they're kind of crappy actually

00:26:38   I don't know. Maybe I'm just a traditionalist or something, but I

00:26:42   You know, they got to be black and white and they need to have some kind of checker pattern on them. That's yeah

00:26:48   That's all I care about. Yeah, they could even if they want to use these these fewer panels

00:26:52   they could somehow put the checker pattern on. But even then though I kind of don't like the way they

00:26:57   keep messing with it. Like it's it seems contrary to tradition. Yeah, and soccer is a lot about

00:27:03   tradition. Like if you did some the same thing with baseball, it would the baseball would look

00:27:08   exactly the same. Like here it is 10 years, you know, 1920s looks like a baseball, 1930s looks like

00:27:13   like a baseball. And there's always been rumors in Major League Baseball that in certain decades

00:27:20   that there's a secretiveness to what's in the center of a baseball, which I've never

00:27:26   really bought into because you don't have to be a baseball fan to know that home runs

00:27:30   and foul balls go into the stands all the time. Like, it's not every game, some couple

00:27:36   of dozen fans go home with a real Major League Baseball. So it's there to be cut open and

00:27:42   looked at. But there's always been rumors like when home runs go up or down, there's

00:27:47   always conspiracies that they've changed the rubber in the middle of the ball, you know,

00:27:51   that the commissioner has decided we need more home runs, and they've doctored the balls

00:27:55   to make them easier to hit further, etc, etc.

00:27:58   I think doctoring the players is

00:27:59   Yeah, it was a lot more fun. And there was but you have to go back 100 years for this.

00:28:05   There was something called the dead ball error, where where the baseballs were harder to hit

00:28:11   further. What like because they were constructed differently? Yeah they were

00:28:16   just I don't know what the technical I don't know what the actual technical

00:28:19   difference was but this wasn't like a secret conspiracy this was you know it's

00:28:23   just a stated fact yeah and and then they you know there's like pre Babe Ruth

00:28:29   I mean so you're really talking like almost a hundred years ago but it

00:28:33   wouldn't be like that same thing for basketball like I think you could go

00:28:35   back to like 1950 and about you know a basketball looks like a basketball

00:28:40   Yeah, I'd imagine so. I don't get it with soccer. I can't. I can't. Well, European fashionistas, right?

00:28:50   Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. I don't know. There's so much money in soccer, though. It's crazy.

00:28:57   Yeah, I wonder if that's it. If they, you know, if they make a lot of money by selling, like,

00:29:03   these updated soccer balls. Because, you know, but I would think so, you know, like any sport,

00:29:07   that the balls wear out anyway and that there's always going to be you know

00:29:10   anybody who plays on a regular basis has to buy balls on a regular basis and it

00:29:14   doesn't matter if they change the design you're still buying the ball yeah but

00:29:18   getting a new design for the for the World Cup yeah I guess it could spike up

00:29:22   the thing yeah and I guess what it does is it makes everybody want to get the

00:29:27   official adidas ball that it's more that's it's you know it's whereas I can

00:29:32   basketball there's three four five major manufacturers of basketballs and they

00:29:36   make the same fundamental ball but are they used interchangeably during the game uh no each league

00:29:43   usually at least at a serious level once you get to like serious like college basketball or um

00:29:48   you've got certainly in the professional level it's there's somebody has a licensing deal in it

00:29:53   you know and for fairness sake there's one manufacturer but like you know spaulding has

00:29:58   long made the nba's balls um but very few of the college teams use the spalding balls they use you

00:30:06   Wilson and other brands.

00:30:07   I don't know why that is.

00:30:08   I guess it's, you know.

00:30:09   - Whatever, licensing. - Marketing deals.

00:30:12   - Payola.

00:30:13   - Extent.

00:30:17   Right on topic.

00:30:19   - We could talk about goofy stuff forever.

00:30:21   Got a job to do.

00:30:23   Yeah, I don't know.

00:30:25   What do we get to?

00:30:26   Extensions, good.

00:30:28   I think maybe you link to a piece by Sean Heber.

00:30:32   - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:30:33   Interesting.

00:30:35   Yeah, because it's, you know, it's this, I guess a lot of people, Sean Heber had a

00:30:41   piece where he sort of speculated, he works, he does all the work for Hockenberry, you

00:30:47   know, Hockenberry gets all the credit and Sean Heber, I guess, does all the hard work.

00:30:52   And when you're as big as Hockenberry, you don't want to.

00:30:54   Yeah, you don't really need, you know, to do the typing. I don't want to read his

00:31:02   But basically, he took a look at this new extension, emphasis on extensions, and the safety,

00:31:08   you know, the way that it's separate apps, really, just little apps running in a different context,

00:31:13   and speculated that that could be the future of a new, like a next generation Apple TV with,

00:31:20   you know, with apps, with an open, like an open for Apple and App Store architecture.

00:31:27   Yeah, it's an interesting piece. It's worth checking out.

00:31:31   Yeah. I'll put it in the show notes.

00:31:35   Yeah, okay. Perfect. Because the cool thing about the extensions thing is that they don't tell you

00:31:40   really what context you're going to be in. It doesn't say, "Okay, now you're coming up for

00:31:45   the today context," or whatever. It gives you a frame in which to project your UI in.

00:31:54   Now that you can actually use the GPU in the background,

00:32:01   I can see them doing something where an app can be running

00:32:04   and projecting a UI into an off-screen surface

00:32:08   and having that surface broadcast to a television using,

00:32:12   basically, what do they call it, AirPlay.

00:32:15   Yeah.

00:32:16   Well, for video, AirPlay is great.

00:32:17   For games, it wouldn't be.

00:32:19   And in just pie in the sky, what if, blah, blah, blah.

00:32:23   The idea that the game is running on your iPad or your iPhone and just projecting to the screen,

00:32:28   it's gonna be way too much latency. There's no way that you're gonna get, you know, even fun,

00:32:34   casual game waste latency with that type of...

00:32:37   No, it depends on the game. But yes, there's...

00:32:39   Well, they would rule out a lot of games. There's some games where that could work.

00:32:42   All right, I'll backtrack. There's some games where it could still work,

00:32:45   but there's a lot of games where it wouldn't.

00:32:47   I certainly don't think you'd get a big chunk of the console market through that method, because

00:32:53   Yeah, you bet.

00:32:54   The latency wouldn't be there.

00:32:55   All right.

00:32:56   And the other thing that I keep coming back to is we know the basic – or at least Apple

00:33:02   TV as we know it is the cheap parts of an iOS device, by which I mean – and it just

00:33:09   seems funny because if you're old enough to think that the CPU is one of the cheap

00:33:14   parts is crazy because it used to be that a PC was a very expensive CPU surrounded by other stuff.

00:33:23   And now, like the, you know, the A series systems on a chip, not that they're cheap, but they're,

00:33:31   you know, they're nowhere near as expensive as the touchscreen, the display. You know, the glass,

00:33:37   the actual glass is the expensive part of an iPad and an iPhone. Batteries are probably expensive.

00:33:43   Yeah, I think batteries are expensive. And I think that I think that it's the assembly

00:33:48   too. I think that the you know, that's not you can't really call it a component. But

00:33:52   getting all that stuff into these crazy thin small form factors, the affordances they have

00:33:58   that it costs money in the tool. Right. So but then to take that little tiny system on

00:34:04   a chip and put it into a relatively humongous hockey puck, like the Apple TV, I think is

00:34:10   Assembly wise very cheap so they can sell them like right now today

00:34:14   They sell an Apple TV for $99 and it has the I think it has the a5 doesn't it? They never updated it if I see it

00:34:20   And you know, it's been

00:34:24   Updated to the a5 for a while now that was you know

00:34:27   I think it was sometime like 18 months two years ago when it came out

00:34:31   But when it did the a5 was roughly a year old, you know, they can put a year old

00:34:38   system on a chip into a $99 Apple TV. Yeah, so that means like

00:34:44   Sometime soon if not, if not in the second half of this year, maybe early next year

00:34:49   They could put the a7 system on a chip in a $99 Apple TV

00:34:54   And I doesn't make any sense if you've got a nice a7 in there

00:35:00   It doesn't make any sense to only use it for airplay. I mean you'd want to have code running on it

00:35:04   and graphic stuff running on Metal on the A7.

00:35:09   - I agree.

00:35:10   Yeah, especially because yeah, A7 starts with the,

00:35:13   sorry, the Metal API, the new 3D rendering API

00:35:16   that they have requires an A7 right now.

00:35:19   Again, I think it's a business thing,

00:35:24   depending on how they think they can get into this market.

00:35:27   Ben Thompson had a good piece up yesterday

00:35:32   about disrupting, like Apple disrupting the console market

00:35:34   and how it's right for it.

00:35:36   I agree with you, he at some point had two products.

00:35:41   He had look at $99 one without games

00:35:43   and $179 one with games, which is boneheaded.

00:35:48   - Yeah, and it's funny because a year,

00:35:50   and I even updated it with a year prior,

00:35:52   he had the right idea that it would just be a $99 device

00:35:55   that you could run games on.

00:35:56   - Yeah, I had a good lunch chat with him yesterday on,

00:36:00   I forget what the show, Electric Shadow.

00:36:02   Anyway, that'll come out sometime soon.

00:36:03   He's a smart guy.

00:36:04   - "Moy Zissou Show."

00:36:05   - Yeah, "Moy Zissou Show."

00:36:06   - We were on it together.

00:36:08   - Exactly.

00:36:09   And Sandy.

00:36:10   - Yeah.

00:36:11   - That was fun.

00:36:12   Any excuse to talk to Sandy.

00:36:13   - The thing that I thought his key observation

00:36:16   was that historically, zoom out to the Atari 2600 in 1979

00:36:21   or whenever it came out, for a very long stretch,

00:36:26   consoles cost like a hundred bucks

00:36:30   And then they'd try to make their money selling the games and there was this hundred dollar hundred dollar

00:36:34   You know give or take, you know, maybe sometimes closer to 200

00:36:37   But that I guess probably starting with the PlayStation and certainly with like PlayStation 2 and then with Xbox

00:36:47   They got more expensive, you know, and it used to be the PCs were thousands of dollars, you know average price like

00:36:57   $1,000 back in like 1980 81 and

00:36:59   Consoles that you just hooked up to your TV were like $100 and that you know, he made a nice graph

00:37:05   It's pretty I thought that was pretty insightful that they've converts that consoles have gotten more expensive because they've gotten more powerful and effectively

00:37:12   They're they're gaming PCs. Yeah, and PCs have gotten cheaper and cheaper

00:37:17   But that that that trend has left this

00:37:21   Pricing umbrella underneath. Yeah, the big one like consoles now about 400 bucks

00:37:26   Xbox was 500, but they dropped it down.

00:37:30   And I think his argument is that the console

00:37:36   manufacturers have been chasing the high end gaming

00:37:39   market, and that's made it necessary to have high end

00:37:48   machines all the time, which costs a bunch of money.

00:37:51   And they try to make the money back over the six year,

00:37:54   seven year span of the console.

00:37:56   But yeah, that has carved out a giant section below it.

00:38:00   And I think for a long time that didn't really matter,

00:38:05   because what was below the high-end consoles wasn't a compelling experience.

00:38:11   But now I think with an A7-powered level chip,

00:38:17   I think you can have a pretty compelling experience that a lot of players would be happy with

00:38:22   at a very low price point and sort of undercut the high-end console market in a way that

00:38:28   they don't expect and they can't really compete with.

00:38:31   Yeah. And I don't think it's just about games. And I know that a lot of us – I'm not even

00:38:36   a gamer. I mean, I don't play a ton of games. But I know you do have a background actually

00:38:41   making games. But I think maybe that's part of the thing that we're overlooking is we're

00:38:48   only focused on watching movies and TV shows, right, on an Apple TV or any of these, you

00:38:55   know, devices that you hook up that you could do that on a TiVo, you can do it on, you know,

00:38:59   you can get movies and TV shows on your PlayStation and your Xbox and games. But there's other

00:39:05   you could do anything you'd want to project on a TV, right? And so think about the way

00:39:10   that we can talk about other things that have been Sherlock'd, you know, by announcements,

00:39:16   But it occurred to me that maybe like Panix status board could be Sherlock by a future

00:39:25   Apple TV that runs notification center widgets.

00:39:28   Sure.

00:39:29   Yeah.

00:39:30   Right.

00:39:31   And that, you know, you might not do it in your living room for your family, but that

00:39:34   if you're a business, you know, you might have a TV set up with, you know, uh, Apple

00:39:41   TV hooked up to it and just run notification center and have you know, company information

00:39:47   and you know, status.

00:39:48   I do that in a second. I think it's a good idea.

00:39:51   Right. And it's powerful because then it's not just what here's the widgets Apple thinks

00:39:54   you might want. It's any widget from any app, including ones that you the company with this

00:40:00   board up on the wall, wrote yourselves for your own internal system.

00:40:03   Yeah, no, I totally agree. Things are great idea. You know, I need, you know, $99 box

00:40:08   that you just plug into a TV is pretty that's like not a huge argument you have

00:40:13   to have with the procurement office in order to get that right right yeah it's

00:40:17   it's you know it's lunch for four or five people exactly yeah so no I think

00:40:22   that's a good idea I guess um you know and also you could project your slides

00:40:25   onto it for when you want to do the presentation yeah yeah anywhere where

00:40:29   you'd have a screen or project something is a possible place where you would use

00:40:35   Apple TV and that you know having these extension api's make it possible to do a

00:40:41   lot more than just show video or play a game yeah I think it's a think there's

00:40:46   an interesting product in there I don't know if they're gonna call it Apple TV

00:40:50   but yeah who knows yeah who knows if they change the name of that and I'd

00:40:54   also don't know if it's a this year thing or not I think that I get a sense

00:41:01   a little bit further out. Yeah, I kind of did last week too. And I don't know, it doesn't seem

00:41:07   impossible. I don't know, I don't know anything for sure. But I kind of get the feeling that the,

00:41:13   that it's not on the list of things that are coming at the end of the year. No. And, you know,

00:41:18   everybody seems excited about the list of stuff that is coming. So yeah, but I think there's a

00:41:22   lot of people who assume that TV has to be one of them because it's the one that's been the

00:41:28   rumored for the longest? Well, I mean, that's kind of the classic thing, right? Everybody assumes...

00:41:32   It gets back to what we're talking about, about the extensions or the, you know, the accelerated

00:41:38   WebKit. People say they want a specific thing, and then Apple just kind of delivers something

00:41:45   different that does address the problem. Yeah. So I don't know if it's going to be a watch or a TV

00:41:51   or whatever, but whatever it is, they seem pretty pleased with it. Yeah, sort of a different topic.

00:41:56   Anyway, one of the things I wanted to write about, but I skipped because I felt like I'd

00:42:02   gone long enough in my piece.

00:42:03   But when you go to WWDC, and you were there, I was there, you see people who you don't

00:42:11   see throughout the year, especially people who work at Apple, people who I'm friends

00:42:16   with or semi-friends with or who I at least have met before, and there's a certain personal

00:42:22   repertoire.

00:42:23   And like I said with Mark Gurman on this show a couple weeks ago that you develop, you know

00:42:28   not not necessarily giving spilling secrets or

00:42:31   You know tips that are you know, super juicy or something like that

00:42:34   But you can learn things that you wouldn't learn any other way because face-to-face communication is somehow more

00:42:40   human man

00:42:43   I

00:42:45   Really got a sense talking to people at Apple last week at WWDC the

00:42:50   They're happy happy in a way that they haven't been again. In fact one friend literally said the words

00:42:56   It's fun again. Yeah, that's good, which I thought was pretty interesting. Yeah, I don't know

00:43:02   Did you did you pick up on anything like that or or yeah, it's something tell me almost exactly the same thing

00:43:08   Like yeah, I'm having a lot of fun

00:43:11   So and that's it. Yeah it yeah to me

00:43:15   it's really interesting.

00:43:16   And I thought that that fun again was a big tell.

00:43:20   And again, it's not because they're taking it easy and relaxing.

00:43:25   I mean, these are people who love their work.

00:43:27   Yes.

00:43:27   No, no, these people--

00:43:29   fun again probably means that they're working the weekends, unfortunately.

00:43:33   I hope not, because that just burns people out.

00:43:35   But fun again means that they're tackling interesting problems

00:43:38   and they're having a good time.

00:43:39   Well, and I think it gets to the part--

00:43:42   I think it is also part of what I did write about,

00:43:44   which is this sort of like go back to the collaboration and more parts of the company

00:43:49   working together on the same things, you know, and that, that there were iOS people working on

00:43:58   the umbrella, you know, it's an umbrella term continuity isn't one feature. It's,

00:44:04   it's, you know, an umbrella name for several features, but that they're working hand in

00:44:08   hand at the same time with people doing the same frameworks on the Mac side, because the

00:44:13   whole point of them is to, you know, like handoff handoff doesn't exist if there aren't collaborating.

00:44:19   Right. But it means that there's more people that nobody's like sitting there twiddling their thumbs,

00:44:24   while the attention of the top executives is all on iOS eight. Right. Well, I mean,

00:44:30   the program office used to be divided between OS groups. And now it's combined. Right. And it's,

00:44:37   I think that it's meant that more, a lot more, not just a little more, but a lot more engineers

00:44:44   are fully engaged on high priority projects than ever before. And that's what makes them happy.

00:44:51   I think so. Yeah. Plus, I mean, so last year, it had been a slog to get iOS seven out.

00:44:59   The four style departure probably soured some people. Not not that they were bitter,

00:45:06   necessarily just that you know it's a big change up so that there's always

00:45:11   some kind of gnashing of teeth when there's a changeup yeah I worry about

00:45:16   that too and I hope that when what I wrote didn't come across as being

00:45:19   anti-forstall because I feel like as time goes on it's easy to slag on the guy

00:45:24   and as time goes on I actually think he doesn't deserve it no why you think it's

00:45:28   an amazing job everybody I've talked to that's worked with him there's nothing

00:45:31   but high praise for him right and I think that's what might have soured some

00:45:34   people is that the people who worked under him, who were in his division, the IOS division,

00:45:40   mostly really, really liked and admired him. And they always felt like that he had their

00:45:45   back. And because he was an effective corporate in-fighter and was obviously famously close

00:45:53   to Steve Jobs, that having their back meant that they, you know, that's a great boss,

00:45:59   right? That's a great guy to be working for.

00:46:04   I get to and the other thing I didn't know this till recently like it's the Don Melton story

00:46:09   But the Don Melton story that that forced all was the guy who went to back for the carbon strategy

00:46:16   We're now we're going way back now. We're talking like 1988 1999

00:46:21   You know you you talked about this with Rich Segal on

00:46:26   Debug recently a great great episode of the show rich my it was actually one of the few people who I could say is my former

00:46:32   boss at bare bones. He's a blast to talk to you. Oh, he's super thoughtful guy. Yes, we

00:46:41   talked about it. Yeah, exactly. We go long story short, you know, the, you know, Apple

00:46:46   buys next. Next comes in Steve Jobs and the next leadership effectively take over Apple.

00:46:54   Correctly, you know, that's, they were, you know, the people who were the whole reason

00:46:59   Apple was in trouble was that their leadership was crap. They come in, they come up with

00:47:04   a strategy and their first strategy is, "Okay, everybody's going to write Cocoa apps because

00:47:09   Cocoa is awesome. Trust us. It's better." Now, they're correct that Cocoa is great and

00:47:13   that it was better. They were not correct that that was an effective… that Apple was

00:47:19   in a position to dictate something like that because they needed big developers like Adobe

00:47:27   and Microsoft to have their apps on the system.

00:47:31   And rewriting from scratch was not something

00:47:33   they were gonna do for a system that might not even work.

00:47:37   - Right. - Right?

00:47:38   'Cause Apple had been promising

00:47:38   next generation operating systems

00:47:40   for the whole decade of the 90s.

00:47:41   - Yeah.

00:47:42   - And at the smaller level, developers like bare bones,

00:47:47   the small ones, weren't on board with it either,

00:47:49   because they could actually even less afford to gamble

00:47:52   because they couldn't afford to spend a year

00:47:55   rewriting for a new system.

00:47:56   know, that it could put a small developer out of business.

00:47:59   So along comes this idea of carbon. Right. And it's surprising to me in hindsight,

00:48:07   but not really having met Forrestal, you know, once or twice and knowing a little bit about him.

00:48:13   But knowing that he was a next guy, had been there with the next, there was a perception on the Mac

00:48:18   side that the next people all wanted, that they were a little religious about cocoa and the next

00:48:23   stuff. And it's interesting to me that one of the next guys was the one who really fought

00:48:30   for the carbon strategy within Apple. And the whole reason, well, I think practical

00:48:35   in terms of realizing that it was a good strategy for Apple to keep developers on board. But

00:48:40   I think it was also the case that Forstall always, he was a supporter of third party

00:48:45   developers.

00:48:46   Yeah, I think so too.

00:48:48   So we haven't released it yet, but we did an interview with

00:48:52   Nithin Ganatra, who was the director in

00:48:56   charge of iOS apps.

00:48:58   Like from the beginning of the project to a

00:49:00   couple years ago.

00:49:02   This is going to be on debug?

00:49:04   Debug, yeah.

00:49:06   It's not out yet, but man, it went long.

00:49:08   It's like four hours long, so it's going to be in two hours,

00:49:11   I guess.

00:49:11   But the first half, he started in '93, and he was with the

00:49:15   during this entire process that you just described and he was working on carbon

00:49:18   and it's so if anything that John just said it interests you there's gonna be

00:49:24   more more information than you can shake a stick at on on a coming up debug show

00:49:29   but needons awesome nice such a smart smart guy yeah I don't want to say it's

00:49:34   ancient history but it's certainly history at this point and it's a

00:49:37   surprisingly little of that has come out I think it's just the nature of Apple's

00:49:41   culture of not really talking about the internals of your work. I mean, it's not secret anymore,

00:49:47   but it's not like I think Don Melton is burning any bridges by having said that. But Apple

00:49:52   people just don't talk about stuff like that. So to hear these stories is usually there's

00:49:57   something new to learn.

00:49:58   Yeah, it's a treat. That's kind of where the interview went so long. I wanted to talk to

00:50:03   him. We try to get the backstory of people and then focus on something. I was going to

00:50:07   focus on you know iOS development and the apps but it was just so fascinating

00:50:12   all this historical stuff felt I just couldn't help but go down the rabbit

00:50:16   hole on it so anyway I you know it's a I think as time goes on the forest all

00:50:22   story and and you know whatever friction there was with him and the other

00:50:26   executives and cooks decision to to to oust him it's not a simple story of well

00:50:33   Forrestal was a you know bad guy or an asshole and you know I think it was a

00:50:39   complicated story and probably without question in my mind the most difficult

00:50:44   decision that Tim Cook has made as CEO. I'd say so. Didn't you have a piece arguing

00:50:48   that? I think so but I think as time goes on though and we hear you know just to

00:50:54   hear stories like that like to hear that Forrestal was the guy who went to bat

00:50:57   for carbon even though he was a next guy yeah who clearly was evangelizing for

00:51:01   Coco you know it just shows that he was you know he was good for third-party

00:51:08   developers you know yeah but that it still might have been the right you know

00:51:11   and I think more and more it seems like it was the right move to to move on well

00:51:15   it's it's hard to look at this WWDC and argued that they made a misstep right

00:51:20   right it's clearly not in the gutter I mean it's greatest as for style was this

00:51:25   is a I don't want to say new era because it's not but it's you know grown up

00:51:30   That's where I've what I've that I've chosen to frame it is that the company has grown up. I like that. That's good

00:51:36   Yeah, there's a maturity

00:51:38   to to their

00:51:40   Opening up internally sure. I mean people have been saying it's a new Apple and yeah, maybe but not really

00:51:47   ultimately Apple is still gonna do the thing that you can depend on them to do which is

00:51:52   Act in their own interests first

00:51:56   Because it's a company that's the way the world works. But now they seem to

00:52:00   See their interests aligned with third parties in a much more open kind of way in it where maybe previously

00:52:09   They thought they could just do everything in the today view. We're all

00:52:13   Being a grown-up and as a human is largely to me about

00:52:18   Being disciplined that you can be an idiot when you're you know a teenager and you know college student

00:52:26   and maybe even in three or 20s, but that at a certain point,

00:52:29   you've got to stop being an idiot,

00:52:30   and you've got to be a little bit more disciplined

00:52:32   and behave in a way that's not necessarily whatever you want

00:52:36   to do at the moment, but it's part of a larger plan.

00:52:40   And I think it's true for companies, too.

00:52:41   And I think that immature--

00:52:44   I say new Apple is the new Apple after they reunified with Next.

00:52:50   I love that term, by the way.

00:52:51   I don't know if I'd heard it that way before.

00:52:53   The reunification.

00:52:55   I've been using it for a little bit and and it just struck me last night when I

00:52:59   read the price. Yeah.

00:53:00   Well, I've thought about that because you know, a lot of the next guys,

00:53:06   there's guys like bud trouble who like bounced, I think he was at apple,

00:53:10   then at next and now he's back at apple, you know,

00:53:12   it wasn't just steve jobs, right? And, and when jobs left,

00:53:17   he took apple people with him or,

00:53:19   or there were apple people who after jobs was forced out of the company in 85

00:53:24   who then left Apple and then went to Next because they liked the Apple when Steve was there.

00:53:30   Right.

00:53:30   You know, and that it, to me, that's the best way to see it. I know that some people phrase it as,

00:53:35   "Hey, it was a reverse acquisition that Apple bought Next and Next took over Apple."

00:53:40   At a leadership level, that's true. But I think reunification is, to me, the best way to look at

00:53:45   it.

00:53:45   I like it. It makes it sound happy, too.

00:53:47   Right. That in their hearts, they were always in alignment, that they, two companies that

00:53:53   valued the same things. Oh yeah, yeah for sure. Well, design and interface for sure.

00:53:58   Yeah, all right. Well, let's come back. I want to come back to this corporate maturity. Remember

00:54:03   that. But let me take a second break here and thank our great friends at Squarespace. Everybody

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00:54:29   "because I'm starting my own podcast."

00:54:32   Or you're starting a blog,

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00:54:40   they think, "Well, everybody's always telling me

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00:56:24   So corporate maturity, yeah, that's that's how I look at it

00:56:28   I do and and I think it's discipline and it takes discipline to do multiple things at once and to

00:56:35   Collaborate. Yeah, and I think when apples was new Apple was immature. I think that it it

00:56:43   it manifested itself and do one thing at a time and

00:56:48   It left a lot big parts of the company

00:56:51   untapped

00:56:53   You know and that you know, I'd linked to it today and jalkeet had a great piece on it in

00:56:59   2007 but I

00:57:01   In 2007 when the iPhone first came out, they had a press release

00:57:05   They actually had to issue a press release before WVDC and because they it wasn't that they were expected to announce

00:57:12   leopard they had they were expected to

00:57:15   Release leopard it leopard was supposed to ship to consumers at WWDC not like a developer beta

00:57:21   But the real thing and they had to say in advance of WWDC. This isn't gonna happen. We're gonna shoot for October

00:57:29   We'll have a beta for developers at WWC

00:57:32   But it's nowhere near shipping because we had a pull engineering and QA resources off Mac OS X to ship the iPhone

00:57:38   You know and it's not the only example of it but that you know that that they were you know

00:57:46   you know, I think a lot of it comes down to Steve Jobs that he was insular and

00:57:51   You know what his attention was on was where he directed the company and it was well, it's a little focused

00:57:57   I mean, well both, you know that he was folk that the it it's a different thing for the company to be focused than for one

00:58:04   Person to be focused sure I think

00:58:06   And I think mature Apple is doing more things at the same time

00:58:12   But in unity that they're not all over the place, you know and an example

00:58:17   And maybe it's unfair maybe you tell me if it's unfair but here so Apple announced a new programming language

00:58:25   And it really is new and it's interesting we can talk I'd like to talk to you and see what you think about it because I've

00:58:29   What I've learned in two weeks since it was announced is pretty interesting. Yeah

00:58:33   But it's really is a new language this is no joke they haven't just you know made a small tweak to some existing language

00:58:42   And that's a pretty big deal and they expect to have very big deal, you know

00:58:47   millions of apps written using this language

00:58:52   Starting this year and it runs on both iOS and Mac. Yeah, so it's not like this abstract

00:58:58   Here's a new language and but it doesn't really you know, you can't use it to write apps or

00:59:04   Or you can't use it to write Mac apps yet

00:59:07   You can only use it to write iOS apps or the other way around

00:59:09   It's no here's and here's a new language and you can start using it now or very soon because you know

00:59:17   The syntax is like in beta. Yeah

00:59:19   but you know, I think they expect to finalize at least finalize the 1.0 version of it very soon and

00:59:25   You can start using it for real in production now compare and contrast that with with Google which put a crackerjack

00:59:33   like Hall of Fame team together

00:59:36   Of language guys, you know that and they came up with a new language go which has a you know

00:59:43   I don't I wouldn't call it that close to Swift but it's the same basic idea of let's solve the problems of C without

00:59:49   losing the performance of C. Let's do something like safety.

00:59:54   That's the big theme that's shared by almost all newer systems languages.

01:00:00   Java was, having it in a runtime is about safety and security.

01:00:06   Same thing with C#, which is in layman's terms, Microsoft's version of Java.

01:00:11   Or maybe Microsoft's vision for something like Java.

01:00:16   Go is about getting rid of pointers and stuff like that. Swift is about getting rid of pointers

01:00:23   and memory management and stuff like that for safety and for programmer efficiency,

01:00:28   but while having that same performance.

01:00:31   So Google has this new language, well-respected. It's been out for a while now. But it has

01:00:37   absolutely nothing to do with Android. So they've got this platform with hundreds of

01:00:42   of millions, maybe even close to a billion now, devices running it and a new programming

01:00:47   language, but the two are just, there's no relationship between them whatsoever.

01:00:51   >> Yeah, they're completely divorced from one another. Android uses a version of Java.

01:00:56   >> Right? And maybe that's unfair that it, you know, that anything Google does has to

01:01:00   be part of Android or something like that. But it just seems to me that Google is still

01:01:03   an immature company in that regard in that they have these different initiatives and

01:01:07   they're not really pulling together. It's a throw it all up against the wall and see

01:01:11   what sticks yeah I think they do have a little bit of that sort of academia

01:01:16   style thing which I'm really not knocking but they will try a bunch of

01:01:22   different stuff and sometimes I come up with really really cool stuff yeah

01:01:25   that's exactly what goes seems like it's and that just doesn't mean that go

01:01:29   there's anything wrong with go no or that you know that they should have done

01:01:32   differently but to me there's something more interesting and more about Apple's

01:01:38   Swift because it's so practically useful.

01:01:42   Yes.

01:01:43   And in fact, you can tell from the design of it that it was built to interoperate with

01:01:47   Objective-C.

01:01:48   Yeah.

01:01:49   The way that they have like pseudo named functions, pseudo named parameters in the functions like

01:01:56   Objective-C.

01:01:57   I don't know how many you want to get here, but in Objective-C, you have like multiple

01:02:03   parts to the method name, right?

01:02:06   each after each part like I'm trying to think of one you URL for a resource by

01:02:13   it of type that that's a method so there's two parameters so when it go

01:02:18   function you can you can name them similarly so each parameter and a

01:02:22   function can have a separate name but you can't swap them around it in many

01:02:26   languages with named parameters you can name them as we're not with go oh sorry

01:02:32   it was swift yeah we're done with Swift in many languages with named parameters

01:02:36   you can put the parameters in arbitrary order.

01:02:40   That's not the case with Swift,

01:02:41   because it's built into operate with Objective-C.

01:02:44   - In Objective-C, you couldn't move them around either.

01:02:46   - No, you can't do it.

01:02:47   - Right.

01:02:48   - Because what happens in Objective-C

01:02:48   is it basically takes all of those parts

01:02:50   and it sticks them into one string,

01:02:53   a method name effectively called a selector.

01:02:56   And that's what gets looked up in the runtime.

01:02:59   - Right.

01:03:00   Yeah, like the traditional way of doing it

01:03:03   would be if you have two parameters to a method call,

01:03:07   or call it a function, whatever.

01:03:09   Most languages, you have to know which order to put them.

01:03:13   And you say, here's my function, my function,

01:03:16   parentheses, first parameter, second parameter,

01:03:20   and you have to know what those two are.

01:03:22   - Yeah.

01:03:23   - In that order.

01:03:23   And then once you get to three,

01:03:25   maybe if you get to four, you've got a problem

01:03:28   with your design of the function.

01:03:30   But three's not crazy,

01:03:32   but then you've got three things to remember

01:03:34   and you could easily screw that up.

01:03:35   And if they're both, if two of them are integers,

01:03:38   you're not going to get a compiler warning

01:03:41   and you might have a bug that's very--

01:03:42   - Yeah, you could swap them around

01:03:43   and you don't have the context to understand what they are.

01:03:45   So the name parameters helps a lot.

01:03:47   - Right, because it reads more like language

01:03:50   where the purpose of the second parameter

01:03:53   is right there where you're putting it.

01:03:57   I see exactly what you mean though.

01:03:58   So in Swift, in theory, they could have done it,

01:04:01   which sounds like a nice idea here,

01:04:03   just put the name parameters in,

01:04:05   in whatever order you want.

01:04:06   But I see what you mean that it's meant to be

01:04:11   a sibling to Objective-C.

01:04:12   - Yeah, 'cause it runs on the same runtime.

01:04:15   So, just explain Objective-C for a second.

01:04:19   There's the language of Objective-C

01:04:21   and then there's what's called the runtime,

01:04:23   which is kind of what,

01:04:24   you know, where the magic happens effectively.

01:04:26   The runtime is where all the classes are.

01:04:28   The runtime is where,

01:04:31   When you send a message to a class, when you ask an object

01:04:35   to do something, under the hood, what happens is you go

01:04:39   into the runtime and you look up where the little piece of

01:04:41   code that can respond to that message lives in memory.

01:04:46   And then the computer jumps to it and starts

01:04:49   executing that code.

01:04:51   So that runtime is shared between Swift and Objective-C.

01:04:54   It's the same runtime.

01:04:56   What's different is the language layer on top.

01:04:59   So Objective-C is kind of, I guess, now the traditional way

01:05:03   of addressing that language, which is that runtime, which

01:05:06   is obviously C-based.

01:05:09   So it's got all the power and folly of ancient C. And it's

01:05:14   got this objective layer on top of it, which is where you

01:05:17   get all the classes and the message handling and all of

01:05:20   the fancy stuff that you've come to expect from Cocoa.

01:05:23   So Swift is just another way of addressing that.

01:05:28   runtime and it does away with all of the sort of the followers of C. Arguably it picks up a few of

01:05:35   its own here and there but it's like you said you get rid of pointers you get rid of all of the

01:05:39   hopefully most of the ways that you can kind of cause trouble and and be insecure. What do you

01:05:47   make of um some of this stuff I haven't followed too closely but in the keynote they

01:05:55   they put forth that not only was it as fast as Objective-C, but they gave two examples,

01:06:02   you know, where they showed that it was faster than C. One of them seemed a little realistic,

01:06:06   which was like some kind of, you know, standard security compression or encryption algorithm,

01:06:16   and that the same encryption algorithm, you know, mathematically intense in Swift was actually

01:06:23   faster than an objective C. The other one though, and I think it was you at dinner last week,

01:06:28   I think you even pointed it out, it was actually just total bullshit. It is a quote, complex object

01:06:34   sort. Yeah, I was talking to think this Sir Cusan and I were chatting about it. Like, that's not a

01:06:40   thing. I don't understand. It was a dinner with the both of you at the at the prime rib, where we

01:06:45   were joking about what a nonsensical like, it means nothing. It could mean anything. That's the

01:06:52   It could literally just mean anything.

01:06:54   And so that one was much faster than Objective-C.

01:06:57   So the reason I'm going to guess that that one was faster

01:07:00   is that in Objective-C, every time you want to see if two objects are equal,

01:07:06   you need to go and look up the method, like the isEqual method.

01:07:10   So you have to go to the runtime, so you get one trip for the runtime per object

01:07:13   to check if they're equal.

01:07:14   And if you're going to sort something, obviously you're checking if stuff's equal a lot.

01:07:18   Now, with Swift, because you can say that all of the objects that you're going to sort

01:07:25   are going to be the exact same type, you only have to go look up that method once in the

01:07:30   amount of time.

01:07:31   Because once you've got it, you know that it's going to apply to all of the objects

01:07:33   in your collection.

01:07:34   Do you know what I mean?

01:07:36   Yeah, that makes sense.

01:07:37   So you, rather than asking each object, "Okay, how do you want me to compare you?

01:07:41   Okay, here's a little bit more."

01:07:42   Maybe it's not an expensive thing, but it's, if you're doing it to sort—

01:07:45   It's going to add up.

01:07:46   Yeah.

01:07:47   with a complex object sort, I'm pretty sure they just threw a whole bunch of

01:07:51   crap at it, like a lot. And, you know, so yeah, Swift was faster.

01:07:54   Right. In other words, I think it's, let me see if I can put it in layman's

01:07:59   terms, is it would, Swift would allow you with objects to do something just once,

01:08:08   even if it's a hundred thousand objects, that would have to happen a hundred

01:08:12   thousand times in Objective-C. And even if it's relatively lightweight, you're

01:08:16   there's something that you don't have to do each iteration each comparison, but it is it's an objective see it's it's

01:08:22   Very small, but you know

01:08:24   But scale everything adds up, right, right when you're doing something when you're got a hundred thousand items to compare anything

01:08:31   You don't have you can do once instead of each time through the loop is is a win

01:08:35   Yeah, so that's maybe a little bit of a contrived example

01:08:38   Right because you could actually trick that in objective C to you if you if you have fancy pants

01:08:44   Well, the thing I thought that I'm thinking about though is the fact that and and I

01:08:49   Would think and so far from what I've seen I've seen

01:08:52   It I've seen some performance examples that people have written simple little things where objective C still comes out ahead

01:09:00   but that it's

01:09:02   Easily that Swift looks fast enough. Oh, yeah, whether certainly fast enough. Yeah, right like

01:09:10   If there are problems with Swift, it's not going to be about performance. No, no, no. No, I don't want to I

01:09:16   Was ragging on that particular thing, right?

01:09:19   Greg Titus that's more and I think that's more of a marketing issue than you know for the keynote then

01:09:25   It might it's let's face it I don't know this but the Swift team was probably rolling their eyes at that - I

01:09:33   Would not be surprised they are not done. He's a very very very smart people

01:09:36   to say

01:09:39   I think it was Greg Titus, Omni group guy.

01:09:44   Classic comp side problem is called a TRIE, like a T-R-I-E.

01:09:48   And he's got very fast Objective-C code to sort of do it.

01:09:51   And he rewrote it in Swift.

01:09:53   And his initial implementation was 80 times slower.

01:09:56   But he managed within a day of sort of optimizing and figuring things out.

01:10:00   He got it to be only 1.5 times slower than Objective-C.

01:10:05   Now keep in mind his Objective-C one he's had since forever.

01:10:09   He's been using it for performance testing stuff for a long time, like 20 years.

01:10:14   And he got the Swift one within very close to it in only a day.

01:10:20   And his conclusion, and this is from a series of tweets, so if I'm getting something wrong, I apologize.

01:10:28   But his conclusion was that it's going to take a little bit of time to figure out how to make Swift fast.

01:10:35   But it's certainly got it where it counts. Like you can definitely get there.

01:10:40   And I'm eager. I'm looking forward to it.

01:10:43   I think it's telling that effectively what we now know, and he didn't take credit for it, and it's typical Apple way,

01:10:50   but it makes sense that they let Chris Latner do the demo in the keynote, which was super cool.

01:10:57   I was surprised. Compiloguy comes out of his cave and just walks onto the stage. That's pretty cool.

01:11:03   Yeah. In a keynote where there were only five people on stage.

01:11:06   Yeah. Right. There was Cook, mostly Craig Federighi, a senior vice president,

01:11:11   one product demo by Brian Kroll, who's on Schiller's team, a product marketing guy,

01:11:18   one by Jaws, who's, I think, second to Schiller in product marketing. But those guys were both

01:11:25   on stage very briefly, you know, maybe like five minutes each. And then a nice big demo from Chris

01:11:31   Lattner in the keynote, which is crazy. But it, you know, effectively what we now know is that

01:11:38   for about a year, it started, he started in 2010. And for the first year, Lattner was doing it on

01:11:44   his own. So it's, you know, not that it's his language, and it should be swift by Chris Lattner,

01:11:49   but that he's the, you know, assuming the father of video, the progenitor, maybe the manager,

01:11:55   And he's the guy who did the compiler.

01:11:57   He's just clang and LLVM.

01:12:00   So I think it's interesting that the language came from the compiler

01:12:07   and not the abstract--

01:12:09   like Ruby.

01:12:14   Ruby, it's like, Matz had the idea for the language.

01:12:20   Or that's how I-- not that it's anywhere near as complex as a programming

01:12:23   language, but that's how I did Markdown.

01:12:24   Here's what I want.

01:12:26   I want to put asterisks around a word

01:12:28   and then have m tags come out around it in the output.

01:12:32   And then I figured out, well, how do I make

01:12:34   that happen in a Perl script?

01:12:37   Whereas Latner was starting with, here's a compiler,

01:12:40   and here's a runtime, and here's a bunch of frameworks

01:12:44   for a huge, wide frameworks.

01:12:49   How do I make a language that's optimal for this?

01:12:53   And so I don't think it's any, you know, it would probably be surprising if the performance was bad because you know

01:12:59   He started with starting with the compiler. Yeah. Yeah, exactly this and there is a little bit of a language wonk

01:13:03   smell to Swift

01:13:07   But I could just be an old man, I don't know yeah, I think so, too

01:13:12   I

01:13:13   Guess and I don't know. I don't know if I should be surprised or not. I did think it was crazy

01:13:17   I forget whose tweet it was where I was in a thing on

01:13:23   On Swift it was with Syracuse and we're talking about like how big the language was might have been another omni guy

01:13:28   But somebody said just go to a playground and go import Swift to import the Swift

01:13:34   What is that I would you call it the I

01:13:39   Don't even know what that is when you import Swift it's like the the framework did I mean yeah

01:13:45   Yeah, like the not the runtime

01:13:49   Well, whatever it is, but that's what I get self. Yeah. Yeah, I think they have a name for it

01:13:53   And I think and then you command-click

01:13:55   Swift after you've imported it to bring it up in the playground and inspect it and you can see that Swift itself is actually written

01:14:03   In Swift that the language is actually that the true. What is the language itself is extremely thin. Yeah

01:14:10   Yeah, I'm looking at it now. So there's no so all of the built-in operators

01:14:15   Right so an operators like an equal or an addition or minus even just addition yet is not really part of the language

01:14:21   It's in the Swift

01:14:23   object

01:14:24   Or class you know that's implicitly imported into every Swift program. It's a Swift function

01:14:30   Yeah, all right because I thought I was a little surprised they did operator overload. I did were you at first yeah

01:14:36   I'm not a fan of operating overloading

01:14:38   In some cases it makes turning real comps on ya

01:14:44   I hope yeah

01:14:45   Operator overloading C++ is the only language I ever did any work in that had operator

01:14:50   Overloading and the gist of operator overloading is you could so you could say right out of the bag if you say four plus

01:14:56   Four you're gonna get eight because it knows how to do integers

01:15:00   But you can write your own class and your class could be I don't know a color and you could say color a plus

01:15:08   color B and get a new color and you define what it means to add color one color to another and

01:15:15   Which in some cases that's cool

01:15:18   So you don't have to write a function that says add colors color a color B

01:15:23   You could just say color a plus color B and you've that's overriding the plus sign in the language

01:15:30   Sounds great, but in practice it would drive you nuts because people who you were working with if you're sharing a code would do stupid things

01:15:36   things.

01:15:37   Yeah.

01:15:38   Somebody would come up with somebody would have a cute idea.

01:15:40   And you would look at something like an expression like a plus b.

01:15:44   And it would not be a plus b.

01:15:46   It's like a plus b, but b is like, well, we won't let any negative values in like

01:15:50   some weird, weird stuff.

01:15:52   Why that you would never guess by looking at the go, you can't, right?

01:15:55   You have to Yeah.

01:15:57   So I'm not a fan of operator overloading.

01:16:00   It does ultimately come down to basically, you're gonna have to trust the team that

01:16:03   you work with.

01:16:04   Yeah.

01:16:05   It's true for a lot of programming.

01:16:09   But I kind of feared that a lot of crazy shit

01:16:13   is going to hit the fan.

01:16:16   Yeah, I wonder.

01:16:17   I don't know.

01:16:18   But the reason, once you go to a playground

01:16:20   and do import Swift and command-click Swift,

01:16:22   you can see why it has operator overloading.

01:16:24   Because all of the operators in the language

01:16:26   are defined in Swift itself.

01:16:27   Yes.

01:16:28   Swift itself.

01:16:28   Yes.

01:16:29   Which is a sort of recursive mentality

01:16:32   that I imagine is comes naturally to somebody like Chris. Yeah, like Chris

01:16:38   Lattner is, you know, if I explain this to him how innery resting that is, he'd be

01:16:43   like, well, you know, I probably like why would I do it any other way? You know, it

01:16:46   seems but as to me, it's sort of like mind bending, like looking behind the

01:16:50   matrix, like, whoa, all of these super simple things, like, what does the plus

01:16:55   sign mean when you have an integer on one side and integer on the other is

01:16:58   is defined in Swift itself.

01:17:00   Yeah.

01:17:01   And it's kind of funny.

01:17:03   It's like basically the, you know, the design that the base language to have like two things

01:17:07   you can add and you can compare and then everything else just gets built on top.

01:17:12   Yeah.

01:17:13   And then you end up with a language that's not verbose.

01:17:16   It's you know, really, really easy to read and simple.

01:17:20   Or it looks like it is.

01:17:21   It's pretty much Yeah.

01:17:22   I mean, I think people can abuse it, but you can abuse anything.

01:17:25   So we'll see.

01:17:27   I'm really looking forward to actually getting some real work done with it.

01:17:31   I think it's going to be a long time.

01:17:33   I'm not sure if you put it on Darren Fireball, but there was a piece recently by Aaron Hillegas,

01:17:40   you did link to it, saying that you're still going to need to learn Objective C. Yes, I

01:17:46   agree with him.

01:17:47   Again, I don't think that Swift is harder to learn than Objective C. But I think what

01:17:55   What he does when he teaches is basically he just ignores all of the C stuff.

01:18:00   The objective C is relatively easy, but once you get into the C stuff, things get a little

01:18:06   wonky.

01:18:07   But I'd guess it's like at least two to five years out before objective C is something

01:18:14   that you don't need in any way, shape or form.

01:18:18   least like I know that they're not shipping any frameworks with Swift now

01:18:25   yeah they probably I'll bet they'll start with apps right and they even said

01:18:30   at the WWDC that they rewrote the WWDC app in Swift and you know assuming that

01:18:36   they meant the whole thing I mean I I'm still using it to watch sessions and the

01:18:41   app is great it's perfect never know anything better than any other previous

01:18:46   year yeah and presumably as the language settles down they will start writing

01:18:52   frameworks with it but I you know I can see why they're not you know they want

01:18:58   to be super conservative with the frame yeah well and the frameworks of the

01:19:02   heart and soul of the company oh yeah they are definitely the kind you and I

01:19:06   think that that came across last week at WWDC - it's you know with that where

01:19:11   Microsoft has one operating system windows that they want to run on all

01:19:14   devices. Apple has two very different operating systems, but

01:19:18   that they do share the framework.

01:19:21   Yeah, definitely. I'm not that I heard you make the red you make

01:19:25   that point. But yeah, the like foundation and all of the other

01:19:29   frameworks are really what Apple shares. Like honestly, they

01:19:33   could, they could probably just pull the kernel bit out and

01:19:36   stick it a different kernel in there. And, you know, so long as

01:19:40   all the frameworks are good, that they'd still be happy, you

01:19:43   You know, that it's the identity of the company at this point.

01:19:46   Right. I would almost assume that, you know, not that I think that they,

01:19:50   I don't know if they are ever going to replace the kernel,

01:19:52   but I would almost assume that they've written them with that in mind.

01:19:55   Oh yeah. Definitely. Yeah.

01:19:56   Like in the way that they wrote them in the mind that they should be, um,

01:19:59   CPU architecture in the past. Yeah, definitely. You know,

01:20:03   and that's so they could switch from power PC to Intel and that they could

01:20:07   switch from Intel to arm without, you know,

01:20:11   any kind of pain or the sort of pain that people have had before.

01:20:15   Yeah, I mean that's a lot of the good stuff they got from Next and on like Avi, Tivinion,

01:20:19   and Bertrand, those guys. Very agnostic about the particular hardware that they were running

01:20:26   on.

01:20:27   Yeah. Let me take a third break here. Thank our final sponsor of the show. Another repeat

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01:24:32   What are we talking about? We gotta wrap this up soon, but

01:24:39   No, we never wrap these things up. We just we just keep rolling. We should start talking about movies. Yeah

01:24:45   Yeah, it's nothing good easily

01:24:47   You know what so here's a guy on Twitter, I think he's being sarcastic

01:24:54   Brian s Hall I

01:24:59   Like people who criticize me on Twitter

01:25:01   Just finished a long Gruber post and it's now clear that Tim Cook is Apple Steve Ballmer, which is exactly what Apple needs

01:25:10   Understand so well, I think what he's trying to say is I think he's trying to make an argument that

01:25:15   I'm going to say that whatever is going on at Apple is good. And if Tim Cook is a

01:25:23   Operations type minded guy not a design guy then that's and now he's CEO that now that's exactly what Apple needs a CEO

01:25:31   Yeah

01:25:35   Where as I but see I would I would say it's too too early to tell

01:25:40   Whether it's eventually going to be a problem not having a product guy atop the company

01:25:45   But I think the early signs are that he gets that and that he doesn't try to be a product guy

01:25:53   Yeah, I think the I

01:25:55   Think of anything the biggest mistake

01:25:57   You know bomber or or Tim Cook or anybody who wasn't necessarily product focus could make is

01:26:03   To try to step into the shoes of like the ultimate product guy that it's not gonna happen and by which I mean both both Bill Gates

01:26:10   I think he was good product guy at the end of the day

01:26:13   In a very different way

01:26:17   but

01:26:19   You know, he was also focused on

01:26:21   What was actually shipping I think I?

01:26:24   Say I and I pointed it out in my piece today that I think that the the John Browett

01:26:33   hiring and quick firing is a good sign because it wasn't

01:26:38   And I had to tone down my initial language as I edited it because I think I called it a disastrous

01:26:43   Stint in my early draft, maybe the one that you read last night, but I changed it to ill-fated because it wasn't disastrous

01:26:50   I mean, he wasn't there long enough to do anything really bad. Yeah, and it wasn't like yeah

01:26:54   He just looks shaky on the wheel and they think right it wasn't like and it wasn't like people were

01:26:58   You know after he took over you were walking into the Apple store and the computers were set up on

01:27:02   folding tables, you know, the lights were flickering and

01:27:06   You know, it smelled like

01:27:10   Urine in a subway station

01:27:13   I mean it was I think most people who weren't really

01:27:16   Finely tuned to what people who worked in the stores were saying didn't even notice. It wasn't there long enough

01:27:20   Thing was just a cultural misfit. Yeah

01:27:27   You know, I think you know, I think Tim Cook knew that dismissing him was going to make him that is Tim Cook look bad

01:27:35   Right. Yeah in a way because it's you know, there's the guy who was only on the job six months and they were like

01:27:42   Oh, by the way, John Broward has left the company

01:27:44   You know, it's it's a tacit admission that hate

01:27:47   My first executive hire was a dud. Yeah, right

01:27:52   and I think it would have been a lot easier to

01:27:57   Or at least easier ego wise to just stick with the guy

01:28:01   You know and instead, you know, I think he clearly took a look and thought you know what I think I needed entirely

01:28:10   180 degree different sort of person to take over this job

01:28:14   Which is you know exactly what Angela aren't you know clearly is?

01:28:18   You know this the barrow it came from you know, a nickel-and-dime

01:28:25   electronics reseller

01:28:27   that has a reputation, you know for being pretty low low margin low rent and you know, Angela arts comes from a

01:28:34   genuine luxury retail

01:28:37   Nothing that I mean the worst thing to do when you make a mistake is to double down on it, right?

01:28:42   So it's exactly but it's easy human nature makes it so easy to do that because it

01:28:47   Feels like the worst thing to do is to say I'm wrong

01:28:50   Oh hell yeah do that all the time every time we order one too many drinks at night. I'm like no

01:28:54   [chuckles]

01:28:55   This is the right thing to do.

01:28:57   [chuckles]

01:28:59   Sorry, I made that silly.

01:29:05   [chuckles]

01:29:08   When I left WWG, did I tell you this?

01:29:12   When I left town, I left early.

01:29:17   I left on Thursday morning

01:29:19   and you were still there for a couple of days.

01:29:21   And I woke up and I thought,

01:29:23   "Oh, I hope I gave Guy the rest of that bottle of bourbon

01:29:28   because I can't get it on an airplane.

01:29:30   I only had a carry-on and I would hate to throw it away.

01:29:34   And I got a quick hurry up and pack it.

01:29:35   There was no, wow, you were probably still asleep.

01:29:38   I wasn't gonna wake you up and run it to your room

01:29:40   and give it to you."

01:29:41   And I looked at the bottle and it was empty.

01:29:42   And I was like, "Oh, well."

01:29:43   - Problem solved.

01:29:45   - Problem solved.

01:29:46   No wonder I didn't give it to him.

01:29:48   I was right to worry that I didn't give it to you

01:29:50   to take with you.

01:29:51   And I was wrong to be worried.

01:29:53   Yeah.

01:29:55   I appreciate it.

01:29:56   And then my second thought was to realize

01:29:57   that that was a mistake.

01:29:58   A different sort of mistake.

01:30:05   Here's what I have.

01:30:06   I think that complacency is the problem that

01:30:12   besets giant companies.

01:30:15   I agree.

01:30:15   And I certainly think that that's what--

01:30:19   I think that's what A.L. Ballmer's term at Microsoft,

01:30:24   that he was too complacent, too willing to keep making money.

01:30:29   And again, in defense of Ballmer, way higher profits

01:30:34   and revenues than they ever made under Bill Gates.

01:30:36   Those financial things grew, grew, grew under Steve Ballmer.

01:30:43   But I think he got complacent in terms of moving onward

01:30:46   and being willing to cannibalize his own stuff and make something new and take a chance that

01:30:52   might take away from the existing stuff. And I don't get the sense that Tim Cook is like

01:30:56   that at all.

01:30:57   No, I agree. In fact, I was saying similar to Ben last night. I think Nintendo did the

01:31:04   same thing. Nintendo for a long time was the only console manufacturer that was making

01:31:11   money on their devices. And I think they kind of, they got

01:31:15   addicted to, to that kind of revenue stream. And now they're

01:31:19   kind of in a bad spot where, you know, if Apple does do something,

01:31:22   they're just going to take the legs out from underneath

01:31:24   Nintendo. Yeah, and Nintendo can't be up on the high end,

01:31:27   because that's not what they were doing.

01:31:29   Yeah. And complacency is a weird thing. Because everybody would

01:31:32   say, No, I'm not complacent. Any leader is going to say that

01:31:35   they're not. And I think bomber would be the first to say, No

01:31:37   way. I'm not complacent. I want to destroy everybody. But

01:31:40   Denial is is hard to recognize. Yeah, you know you can go into denial about

01:31:45   Things like what the iPhone was gonna do to Windows Mobile, right?

01:31:50   Which wasn't really that big really Windows Mobile never really was big

01:31:53   Anyway that they were just thought they were gonna be big and their whole attack plan was attacking

01:31:58   Blackberry and Symbian I was weird. They thought it felt to me like they they felt entitled to be big

01:32:06   Do you know what I mean? It was more like...

01:32:08   Yes, exactly. Right.

01:32:10   That was Microsoft...

01:32:12   When Microsoft enters a market with a new platform,

01:32:15   it's going to be a majority share

01:32:18   because... not because of rational reasons, but because that's what happens when Microsoft enters a market.

01:32:24   Because they didn't really do anything.

01:32:27   I mean, they had... So Windows CE was around for ages.

01:32:30   And they didn't really do anything. And they had plenty of time to...

01:32:33   I don't know if they could have done... So the iPhone's a leap.

01:32:36   Let's just say that, you know, whatever, that that's neither here nor there.

01:32:40   But they kept shipping something that looked like Windows 95 for years.

01:32:46   They didn't... They never really bothered rethinking the problem.

01:32:49   They just...

01:32:50   I think they just thought eventually it's going to...

01:32:55   Eventually this is going to be a big thing.

01:32:57   And since we're already there, we'll be the ones who reap the benefits.

01:33:00   Yeah. Well, to your point, it's almost immature.

01:33:02   It's almost like they're just pouty, like why aren't you buying our phones?

01:33:07   We're not going to give you a compelling reason to do it, but you should be.

01:33:12   Weird.

01:33:13   So I'm not worried about that.

01:33:18   I could not be more bullish on Tim Cook's leadership at Apple.

01:33:22   No.

01:33:23   I think he's doing a great job.

01:33:25   I think he knows his wheelhouse and sticks to it and leaves the other stuff that's out

01:33:33   of his wheelhouse to people who are experts.

01:33:35   People we trust.

01:33:36   Well, everything we've seen is great.

01:33:40   Definitely closer collaboration between the two operating system groups.

01:33:47   Way more opportunities for third-party developers than we've ever had on the platform before.

01:33:54   with friends in the company, everybody's happy and excited. Everybody seemed happy and excited

01:33:58   on stage. They even tried to do some nice stuff in the App Store, which is…

01:34:05   Yeah.

01:34:06   …that's kind of… I don't think that's going to change much, but they tried, right?

01:34:12   There's almost nothing negative coming out of this WWDC.

01:34:15   Yeah. It's a good way to put it. Very, very hard to find anything other than niggling

01:34:21   details.

01:34:22   Oh yeah, yeah, like I've got little complaints about Swift and...

01:34:25   But pretty much everything they announced was all good all around for everyone.

01:34:30   Yeah. Well, except that they sure locked a couple of people.

01:34:34   Well, yeah, like yeah.

01:34:36   Well, I got a minor shit locking, but the Reveal app guy's got that stank.

01:34:41   Yeah, so Reveal, it's worth, you know, pouring one out for Reveal because it was really clever.

01:34:48   long story short, you probably know more about it than me, but I would explain it as sort

01:34:53   of like a WebKit inspector for cocoa apps. Good enough. Yeah. And in terms of like the

01:34:58   UI could show your app, you know, the layering, like which controls are on top or in there,

01:35:05   it would give you a three dimensional look at the at the way that the, the controls are

01:35:09   stacked on top of each other. So if you scroll, I can see what's going to go behind one or

01:35:13   the other. It was handy. Yeah. And if you have like a drawing bug, where you're seeing

01:35:17   something that you shouldn't be able to see or not seeing something you should be able to see

01:35:21   that 3D view can help you. Oh, look, duh. No wonder you can't see that button. It's on the wrong way.

01:35:26   And really cool, really advanced, very fancy stuff. And it's like the same thing is now

01:35:34   built into Xcode. Yeah. And, and more, you can do more with it, obviously, because it's built in,

01:35:39   but it's, it's pretty much a direct rip off. So good idea. You know, it kind of deserves to be

01:35:45   to be part of Xcode, I don't know what to say.

01:35:48   Sherlocking is a double-edged sword, right?

01:35:52   - Yeah, especially if you're doing developer tools.

01:35:54   - Yes.

01:35:55   - It's, you know, did you ever,

01:35:56   did you listen to the episode of Brent and Chris's,

01:36:00   The Record with John Chaffee?

01:36:02   - Yes, I did.

01:36:03   - So Brent Simmons and your colleague at Aged and Decealed,

01:36:06   Chris Parris, have a podcast, The Record,

01:36:09   where they're talking to, you know,

01:36:13   Long-standing members of the indie Mac development community John Chaffee of busy Mac now

01:36:17   You know the great busy calc and they're doing what's the new one that's coming out soon busy contacts. Is that what it's called?

01:36:25   And he talked about when he was at extensive which used to make suitcase plugins

01:36:32   Yeah, and they made plugins for like Quark Express and Photoshop

01:36:36   Okay

01:36:36   Yeah

01:36:36   And I remember when I was doing like practically or even not even practically like literally full-time work

01:36:42   Doing graphic design layout and quark express there were some extensive plugins that were

01:36:48   Essential, you know that I don't use that word lightly once you had them you just could not go back

01:36:54   But his you know, he said like we knew that the bet our best extensions that there's Adobe and quark

01:37:01   We're gonna see that and they're gonna see well, you know

01:37:03   If everybody's using it would that should be part of Photoshop or that should be part of quark express

01:37:07   and so it was he said it was like, you know, you had to stay ahead of them because

01:37:12   We needed hits, but once we had a hit, we knew that that hit was very likely going to be rolled into the next version, and that we weren't going to get a heads up about it.

01:37:21   Right. Yeah, that was a great show. Great interview. That's an especially insightful point. Because it's kind of funny, because once you see the numbers spike on a certain plugin, you're like, "Well, that one's dead."

01:37:32   Yeah, yeah, which is you know, but and and I hate to say it but the same is true for developer tools

01:37:37   You know and and it's you know, it's been evident

01:37:40   Ever since again go back to the next reunification that Apple is very very serious about

01:37:47   Providing the definitive developer tool, you know for for their platform. Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, like when they showed off

01:37:55   Xcode for the first time

01:37:58   Very clear indication that code warrior was gonna be persona non credit pretty soon. Yeah that they were gonna do it, you know

01:38:05   They saw it as a strategic of strategic importance to get all the cameras using the first party. Yeah, and it really is

01:38:12   I mean next it's like so the objective well Coco the frameworks and the developer tools

01:38:18   Particularly interface builder

01:38:21   we're pretty much the crown jewels of next and

01:38:24   they've taken that and if they've

01:38:27   Sort of kept that as much as I complained professionally about Xcode or whatever going wrong

01:38:31   They they do take it very seriously

01:38:34   I I say this as a guy who still uses on a daily basis BB edit and loves BB edit and wants bare-bones to continue

01:38:41   to thrive but there used to be

01:38:43   like in the code warrior days really solid support for external editors and that you could use BB edit as your

01:38:50   editor for code warrior development and

01:38:53   You'd miss a few things, but you'd gain things, you know, the things that are in BB editor weren't in their editor and Xcode

01:39:00   Does it still support ex-current internal editors?

01:39:02   You know what I'm looking right now at one point it did but it did for a long time but not in a robust way

01:39:08   No

01:39:09   And whenever you'd file if you could get if you could get the ear of somebody on the team or file a radar and get a

01:39:15   Response and you'd ask for better

01:39:17   External editor support because I want to use BB edit and the answer would be well

01:39:23   what would you what features and BB editor do you want us to add to Xcode

01:39:26   which is sort of not what you want to hear if you're working at bare-bones or even if you're a user who wants

01:39:32   Bare-bones to thrive so that you still have you know, yeah, you know that BB edit does well

01:39:36   But you know, I understand why right? Yeah

01:39:40   I do understand why that if there's a good features like that that they want them in these free developer tools that all developers can

01:39:47   Have and take advantage of and not have to to do that

01:39:50   Yeah, but it does hurt and you know, yeah hats off to the reveal people. Yeah, exactly

01:39:55   I just gave up and I start using defaults and pretty much everything on the time

01:39:59   Like I don't like it used to be that I changed all my my text colors for my man. Yeah, I'm just

01:40:05   I've given up I'm resigned. I'm like just give me give me the defaults

01:40:09   I'll work with that because at least when I go to somebody else's Mac the odds are that they've also given up and

01:40:14   We've all been yeah out into doing everything the exact, you know what when you do give up like that and it's you know

01:40:20   Then you get a new computer. There's a huge advantage to this thing.

01:40:24   Hey, I used to spend three days when I got a new computer getting everything set up the way I want it.

01:40:28   And now I just log in with three things and install Dropbox and I'm up and down.

01:40:34   The one thing I do is I speed up the mouse a little bit and I make the keyboard so that it's not glacial speed.

01:40:39   I don't know why they default the keyboard to be that slow.

01:40:42   Oh, like when you repeat key?

01:40:44   Yeah, the repeat key stuff, which doesn't matter that much anymore because they've kind of nerfed that with the...

01:40:48   Yeah, because half the time you know, if you hit like the E key, it gives you the iOS style

01:40:54   pop up for your the little Frenchy things they put over there.

01:40:57   Frenchy things. Yeah, but for me, it's normally like I just type something I hate and I just

01:41:01   hold down delete. And when it takes like half a second,

01:41:04   oh, yeah, delete. Yeah, delete would be the one or if you want to add a bunch of returns,

01:41:08   but I can see how delete Yeah, yeah, I definitely changed some of those.

01:41:11   What else happened? Oh yeah, so I was joking last week. So Markup kind of

01:41:18   Sherlock's us a little bit, Sherlock's napkin. And I was joking last week saying

01:41:26   that I would rather have it just be everywhere in the system because that's

01:41:29   a cool feature and it is a cool feature and guess what? It's everywhere in the

01:41:34   system. Turns out that Markup, the one that they demoed in Mail, is an extension.

01:41:39   Yeah, I figured that out and I didn't want to tell you.

01:41:43   I don't… Really? You didn't want to hurt my feelings?

01:41:47   I figured it would be better if you figured it out on your own.

01:41:51   So I didn't know, but that's cool. That's really cool. So in any app

01:41:55   now you can just get, well, certainly text edit and mail

01:41:59   so any text view on the system, you can edit an

01:42:03   image in Markup. Was I calling it Markdown? Whatever, Markup.

01:42:07   I know it's Marco or any other image editing capable extension

01:42:16   on the system. I love that idea. I've always loved the idea of

01:42:19   services that came from nest. They get super underused. But

01:42:23   hopefully with this new extensions mechanism, that's

01:42:28   going to sort of breathe new life into that idea.

01:42:29   Yeah, it's a good you know, and napkin getting Sherlock to say

01:42:34   whatever. You guys are fine. You're big boys. But you're

01:42:38   right. And it is more elegant. It's more elegant to know that

01:42:41   it's a feature that implemented on the new extension mechanism

01:42:44   and not hard coded into mail. Right? It's not that the mail

01:42:48   dot app team went in and made this feature. It's a system

01:42:52   level thing. And you're exactly right that it's the second

01:42:55   coming of services because services the things you see in

01:42:58   the you know, you go up to the application name and go down to

01:43:00   services and you see this or you they put it in the control the

01:43:04   the right click menu a couple years ago. Powerful. I use them all the time, but largely unchanged

01:43:11   from the next days. Very much so. Yeah. In fact, I don't think, you know, maybe it takes

01:43:16   one API change since then. Like, yeah, you take an op, you know, what type of data I'll

01:43:20   take text, I'll take files, I only want here, I'm a service, I only want images. If it's

01:43:26   an image, I'm available, otherwise not. And then you return the same, you return something

01:43:32   option. So it works super basically. You have an app, you offer to provide a service in

01:43:39   your app bundle, your P-list. And what happens is when you get fired up, so when the user

01:43:47   selects something and then chooses your service, it copies it onto a special pasteboard. And

01:43:53   then in your app, when you launch, you just look at that pasteboard and do something with

01:43:58   it and then put it back on the pasteboard and say that you're done and the app that

01:44:01   sent it to you gets the changes. It's the most simple system you could think of, right? Like,

01:44:07   "I'm just going to put it on the pasteboard." You don't blow away the one that the user won,

01:44:11   the copy paste one, you just use another one. It's simple and elegant, but its simplicity and

01:44:15   elegance almost shows that it dates from like 1989 or 1990. Computers needed, it had to be so

01:44:22   lightweight because there wasn't all that much disk space or memory or CPU time. They're very,

01:44:28   very thin. You know, they're elegant and powerful, but they're thin. Whereas this new extension system

01:44:35   is in 1990 or 91, it would have been way too heavy. It would have been too much. It's too CPU

01:44:44   intensive and takes too much memory. It does bring back the heady days of 90s, sort of open doc stuff.

01:44:53   Yeah, exactly. I thought the same thing that, you know, hey, why do I have to keep going

01:44:58   between different apps if I just want to take advantage of this app's thing right here?

01:45:04   Like I just want to tweet this. Here's a URL. I just want to tweet it out. Why do I have

01:45:09   to copy and paste it and then switch to another Twitter app and then hit command and open

01:45:14   a tweet and do this thing and then switch back to go to where I was? It's exactly that.

01:45:19   sort of like that the idea of OpenDoc where you just here just go to share hit Twitter

01:45:26   and a little view will open right here where you are um but you know with this new safety thing

01:45:34   where it's not actually injecting any code into your process right which was kind of the problem

01:45:38   with open well there's a lot of problems with OpenDoc but well and OpenDoc had problems i think

01:45:42   conceptually where they they lost i think they lost the wheel by basing it on documents rather

01:45:47   the fundamental thing was a document instead of an app. Well, I think that they got caught

01:45:53   up with what people were doing with computers in the 90s, where everybody was making documents,

01:45:57   you know, it's new Excel files and new Word documents, and Claris works documents, and

01:46:02   everybody was doing documents and emailing documents. And so they thought, well, why

01:46:05   don't we make documents the first class? So it only made sense in the 90s. I think I think

01:46:10   long term, the app is the fundamental metaphor metaphor in the system is great. And I don't

01:46:17   I don't necessarily think that's true though.

01:46:19   So wait, let me back up.

01:46:21   That is inarguably true in our timeline, to simplify it.

01:46:30   I think if computers had started with documents being the first class item,

01:46:34   like from day one, you were always working in a document.

01:46:37   So rather than a command prompt on your Apple II where you'd run a program,

01:46:41   you had some kind of worksheet that as you type stuff would happen to the

01:46:46   worksheet do you know what I mean I think I think you can grow an

01:46:51   interesting computer platform based entirely on documents however nobody is

01:46:55   nobody's doing now and it was by the night is it way too late to put the

01:46:58   genie back in the bottle and reboot yeah and nobody pulled it off no no no

01:47:01   definitely not but it is that you know and the man I remember I had a job this

01:47:07   back when I was thought I was going to be a programmer college internship. I

01:47:14   think it was my third one. It was at a Windows software developer here that did

01:47:17   project management. So I had to, I had to read the open doc spec. Oh, God, I'm

01:47:22   sorry. Because I wanted to know if they should do it. And they were already

01:47:26   going to do object linking and embedding. And I had to read the open doc spec and

01:47:30   actually like try to understand it. It made me want to jump out of window.

01:47:35   Yeah, it's crazy.

01:47:36   It was so hard to get your head wrapped around.

01:47:39   Whereas, even as an outsider, not sitting there in Xcode writing code,

01:47:44   it's like I can watch the extensions,

01:47:47   you know, WWDC sessions and read the high-level docs, and I get it.

01:47:52   I see exactly, you know, all right, you just put it in a little bundle

01:47:55   and a little rectangle will open up and you're drawing in that rectangle.

01:47:59   Yeah, it's just terrific.

01:48:00   That in-situ editing is brilliant.

01:48:02   And I hope a lot of people adopt it.

01:48:04   I really do.

01:48:05   Well, and the other thing too, I think, see, I think it's great because I think it's a

01:48:08   very good conceptual model for developers and developers forget it. I think it's really,

01:48:13   really easy. It's almost like, well, why not do it? It's the sort of thing you can, you

01:48:17   know, you're working on a big complicated app. You can take, you need a break. You can

01:48:21   work on a little sharing extension. It's a nice little side project. Um, like the way

01:48:26   Martin Scorsese always likes to, after he directs a major motion picture, he often afterwards

01:48:31   directs like a commercial, often for like companies in Europe and stuff like that. Because

01:48:36   it's like a nice brand. Just go from a three hour, you know, Wolf of Wall Street. Now,

01:48:41   now we just want to do a 30 seconds. The sorbet between courses. Yeah. But I also think it's

01:48:46   gonna be huge for users because they're so much more exposed. I don't know what I really

01:48:53   hope so. I don't know what the percentage of Mac users who've ever used a services menu

01:48:58   item is, but I'll bet it's in the single digits. Even once, let alone use them on a regular

01:49:03   basis. Whereas that sharing button, which they know from their iPhones, boy, I think

01:49:08   that's, I think they're already using it. And I think that now that they can do more,

01:49:12   I think that, uh, I think that it's really nicely exposed. Yeah. Hopefully it takes off.

01:49:20   I think it's going to be a big deal. I'd be less thrilled if they tank napkins. Other

01:49:25   Other than that, I think it's a terrific idea. There's equal exposure on iOS, right? You

01:49:32   can have photo editing extensions on iOS, which I think is going to be huge.

01:49:36   Yeah, I think so, too.

01:49:39   Like the first person who writes a Gotham filter is going to get bought immediately

01:49:42   by Pinterest.

01:49:44   Yeah. It's the easiest acquisition strategy.

01:49:49   Yeah, like an immediate billion-dollar payout for Pinterest.

01:49:53   Put it put it right into Michael Lops

01:49:55   Camera, all right. I gotta get going. I gotta go to there

01:49:59   Cool. Okay. It's been fun, man. Yeah guy English you guys can find guy on the Twitter's at

01:50:08   GTE I don't even know GTE. Yeah

01:50:11   Three later you gets you look at all the space you'll have left for text because you only have to use

01:50:19   Well used to be used to be at kicking bear and I pulled a whammy and I got it down to three letters

01:50:23   Yeah, well remember I registered at guy English for you. You did. Yeah, and I know I didn't why I did not post a single

01:50:31   No, I get everything to it kind of should it I don't know. I think I've got the the password somewhere

01:50:36   I think I took it over at some point. But yeah, anyway, yeah, I did that at

01:50:40   The chief that's a chieftain. Yeah, it's very very candy and and handed it over to you like the friend that I

01:50:48   the kicking bear calm you write once in a while, but then the big thing is

01:50:52   debug with you and Renee Ritchie

01:50:56   Yeah, I think you think it's you know nerd listeners out there may enjoy

01:51:01   debug

01:51:03   If only because man, we've got some great guests. We're

01:51:06   All of us are enjoying an incredible

01:51:10   Blossoming of cool nerd podcasts, you know, yeah, but

01:51:15   Note not just because you're my guest on the show debug is it's really been one of my favorites and especially recently you guys are

01:51:22   Killing it. Thanks, man. I

01:51:24   Normally, I'd be mirror from that kind of stuff. But our guests are I don't know. We've got some great guests

01:51:29   Yeah, that's cool thing about doing a podcast is you can you can you you can just put it all on the guests and

01:51:34   Be proud of it. Yeah. Anyway, what's the best way to find it? It's over at I'm more I'm more calm

01:51:40   debug or just let's yeah go to iTunes oh you got a you could just got a nice

01:51:45   little tweet from Sean Louis guess a oh that guy actually I gotta get him on

01:51:49   yeah yeah you got us yeah you know you got to step it up your guests think if

01:51:55   it's not malls it's garbage