The Talk Show

83: Live From WWDC 2014 With Marco Arment, Casey Liss, John Siracusa, and Scott Simpson


00:00:00   Hello. Welcome to the talk show. A few things up front before we get started. I want to

00:00:13   thank MailChimp. MailChimp is sponsoring this open bar. So raise a glass to MailChimp. Everybody

00:00:24   here is drinking on their dime. Great email. If you've never heard of them, they do great

00:00:27   email newsletters so go get another drink and then later tonight go set up a

00:00:33   drunk newsletter with MailChimp. I want to thank Microsoft our flagship event

00:00:41   sponsor they've got the banners here this is second year in a row that they've

00:00:44   sponsored this event Azure mobile services truly truly great stuff a year

00:00:51   ago I think it maybe was a little bit weirder that Microsoft and their online

00:00:55   stuff was sponsoring this show at this conference and I think this year it's a

00:01:00   little bit less weird I don't know I mean you guys know that with the stuff

00:01:05   we're doing a Q branch with Vesper we're using them or we build our entire back

00:01:09   end on their stuff certainly wouldn't do that just because they sponsored the

00:01:13   show I'm happy that they're sponsoring a show because I really like their stuff

00:01:16   really amazing stuff so if you're building anything with an online

00:01:20   component I really really encourage you to look at what they have to offer

00:01:24   It's really great even if you're like us and only develop for iOS and Mac OS.

00:01:30   Even if you're really really firmly in the Apple developer ecosystem, they have

00:01:37   great options and so check them out. How many people here have ever checked out

00:01:43   Azure mobile services? Well that we've got to get that up by the end of the

00:01:48   night so maybe I'll go backstage and let you guys investigate your your online

00:01:53   storage needs. No, I'm gonna get started. So the first part of the show I have three

00:02:02   very special guests. I have the guys from ATP, Marco Arment, John Siracusa and

00:02:10   Casey Liss.

00:02:21   This is soft. This is cushy.

00:02:23   Alright, so we've got each got mics.

00:02:25   This is nice.

00:02:26   Nice soft leather.

00:02:28   They always put Casey in the middle.

00:02:30   Like if you ever look.

00:02:31   To be honest, I was expecting to be at the edge.

00:02:33   So it'd be, oh yeah, just sit there and look pretty for a while.

00:02:36   You're good.

00:02:37   Even when they build themselves, I think it's Marco Arment, Casey List, and John Siracusi.

00:02:43   You're always in the middle.

00:02:44   It's obvious.

00:02:45   By surname.

00:02:46   Well it flows really nicely that way.

00:02:49   >> Save the best for last. >> I put myself first. I made the site. And

00:02:55   I kind of cheated. >> So big -- do we all agree this was a big

00:03:01   WWDC, a big king of, right? >> Very much so.

00:03:05   >> Everybody agrees? >> Oh, yeah.

00:03:06   >> Oh, yeah. >> I was sitting in the press section two or

00:03:10   three seats away from John, and I took a picture. It didn't come out because it's so dark in

00:03:14   the area, you know, with the -- you know, the audience isn't lit. The stage is lit.

00:03:18   But I got a picture of him looking happy.

00:03:20   [laughter]

00:03:22   That's amazing.

00:03:23   We were so disappointed because generally for the last few years it's been the three of us in the keynote

00:03:28   and we were genuinely disappointed that we couldn't see his, like, victory dance in his seat

00:03:34   because, you know, I'm assuming that there was some sort of complete spaz attack that happened.

00:03:39   It's like an out-of-body experience. I didn't have much recollection of that one.

00:03:43   When the Swift slide went up, like, I had already tweeted earlier in the thing,

00:03:46   in the thing is this real life when he called Dr. Dre.

00:03:49   So I couldn't use that one again,

00:03:50   but it's exactly what I was thinking.

00:03:51   Is this real life?

00:03:52   Does that slide really go up?

00:03:53   - Well, the reality is like wild exuberance from John

00:03:57   is just like.

00:03:59   - Right.

00:04:00   (laughing)

00:04:01   - I had a big smile.

00:04:01   I showed teeth.

00:04:02   There are pictures.

00:04:03   Come on.

00:04:04   - So they announced, you know,

00:04:05   so I forget the exact way they framed it,

00:04:06   but it was, look, we've got this SDK

00:04:09   and there's the awkward thing

00:04:10   where Tim Cook had to explain, you know,

00:04:11   for everybody out here who's never heard of an SDK,

00:04:13   it's a software development kit.

00:04:15   And there's this weird thing there where it's like, come on, come on, really?

00:04:20   You're going to explain what SDK is at a developer conference?

00:04:22   I know that this is being simulcast to 100 million people and there's press and these

00:04:27   people don't really get it, but come on.

00:04:30   But then, you know, it was, we're proud to announce today we're introducing a brand new

00:04:37   programming language.

00:04:38   And I look over at John and there was still no reaction.

00:04:42   And I think it was like, I think his initial thought was, "Ah, there's got to be a catch."

00:04:48   I don't even remember when he said that.

00:04:50   All I remember is the orange Swift logo, and that was just, seriously, I have very little

00:04:56   recollection.

00:04:57   I was just, I was happy.

00:04:58   I was just so happy that this was really happening.

00:05:00   And then like everyone else was like, "You're seeing this too, right?"

00:05:03   It's not just me.

00:05:06   Was it the Grinch where like the smile just like very slowly just spreads?

00:05:11   I can only imagine. I'm very jealous that you got to witness this firsthand.

00:05:15   Yeah, I... it was... the highlight of the keynote for me was seeing his reaction.

00:05:20   [laughter]

00:05:21   'Cause it really was, and I feel like then they kind of immediately kind of framed it that way,

00:05:25   where it was sort of a... if you've been following this platform long enough,

00:05:30   you hear "new programming language" and it's like, "Well, is it gonna be another bridge?"

00:05:34   "Is it... we mean new programming language, like, new to you, it's gonna be Python,"

00:05:39   or you're going to elevate the Ruby or you know or is it the real deal is it

00:05:43   really a new Apple programming language custom-built for our frameworks and it's

00:05:49   like holy shit yes it is yeah different different syntax it's not objective C

00:05:54   4.0 you know all the things that they could have done if it's the whole

00:05:57   process the whole debate amongst all of us is like oh why they need a new

00:06:01   language they could just do X they can just do why look at how they've improved

00:06:03   objective C and it's like I mean nobody thought that they were at ever settle

00:06:07   they'll settle that debate. It's unequivocal. It looks unlike Objective-C in any way.

00:06:14   So how much have you guys looked at Swift so far?

00:06:17   Only a little bit. And I didn't go to – did you – no, you went to the Swift session.

00:06:20   I went to the introduction to Swift. I mean, if we had all just had time to read that big

00:06:24   iBooks or PDF thing, we would know a lot about it, but we haven't. But I bet if you read

00:06:28   that, you'd know more than you knew from going to that session.

00:06:30   >> Yeah, I mean, I poked through that book with little bits and pieces to see things

00:06:37   that I thought were interesting. We were talking the other night about how closures were going

00:06:42   to be handled and whether or not you needed to do memory stuff. And it turns out, yeah,

00:06:45   you need to do that. But, I mean, really, I'm just thrilled that it's not Perl, because

00:06:50   dealing with -- dealing with --

00:06:52   >> It's almost Perl.

00:06:53   >> Well, dealing with the smugness of it just being a new language.

00:06:56   >> There's plenty of smugness with the Perl angle in there, too.

00:06:59   They list Ruby as a thing, but come on, Ruby is an influence?

00:07:02   Or do you think Ruby got influence?

00:07:04   Alright, I'm gonna cut you off, because this is my...

00:07:06   I wanna let you guys shine, but I listen to ATP every week, I don't need another episode.

00:07:10   Fair enough, fair enough.

00:07:12   Because that's a whole... you complaining about Pearl, and...

00:07:18   Forget it, we're not... no more Pearl, last time we say that word.

00:07:21   We have months of material for our show out of this.

00:07:26   When is the last time, I don't know, like usual I've done no research, when is the last time Apple introduced its own programming language?

00:07:33   Off the top of my head I want to say AppleScript.

00:07:37   Dylan maybe?

00:07:38   Yeah Dylan, but Dylan never, did it ship? Could you ever write an actual thing in the real world using it?

00:07:45   I don't know, maybe not.

00:07:46   Right.

00:07:46   Does Quartz Composer count for anything?

00:07:49   I don't think that's a programming language, I think AppleScript was the last.

00:07:53   HyperTalk, right?

00:07:55   No, AppleScript came after HyperTalk. HyperTalk was first. I'm almost sure somebody looked

00:08:02   it up. Someone in the chat room looked it up.

00:08:04   [laughter]

00:08:07   No, I think off the top of my head, I'm going to say HyperCard was like 1989 or so, and

00:08:12   AppleScript came out somewhere in the System 7 era, so it was, I think it was System 7-1.

00:08:17   You could be right.

00:08:19   And I think that big picture, not getting down into the nitty gritty of the details of what Swift is actually like as a programming language,

00:08:26   zoom out and just kind of look at it and get the basics. I really do think that it is a very Apple-y programming language.

00:08:34   Or at least representative of today's Apple, the modern Apple.

00:08:39   I was going to say, like, Dylan represents the 90s Apple.

00:08:42   And AppleScript.

00:08:43   I think AppleScript is very much a language of and by 1991,

00:08:50   '92 Apple, where the whole idea of we're not

00:08:56   going to make programmers happy, we're

00:08:57   going to make regular people programmers.

00:08:59   Or even just like the hippy dippy kind of academic language.

00:09:02   Like I have a highfalutin idea, and I'm

00:09:04   going to embody that idea in a beautiful, perfect language

00:09:06   or whatever.

00:09:07   Whereas Swift is pragmatic.

00:09:09   It's Chris Latnerized.

00:09:10   Like it is 100% like everything else they've done.

00:09:12   It's like down brass tacks, we need this thing to do x, y, and

00:09:15   z, and we're going to make it.

00:09:16   And if it's a little bit ugly, we don't care.

00:09:18   Totally pragmatic.

00:09:19   Yeah, and I compare it.

00:09:21   My analogy is to the use of Helvetica throughout the UI on

00:09:26   iOS and now on OS X. Helvetica is a great font.

00:09:32   And I've always been a big fan of it.

00:09:35   But it's also famously a very plain font.

00:09:39   lot of people consider it to be the most neutral font that exists. That, you know, they call

00:09:43   it Swiss typography, but that it, you know. I think part of the reason that phrase even

00:09:48   comes on, not just that the Swiss used fonts like Helvetica, but that it's this sense of

00:09:52   neutrality. And when you use Helvetica for anything, nobody ever says, "My God, you're

00:09:57   so clever. You found this amazing font that I never heard of." It's a very plain font.

00:10:02   And I think when they first unveiled the iPhone, I remember people complained about it. That,

00:10:07   "Wow, what an uninspiring choice, Helvetica."

00:10:11   I think Swift is that kind of programming language where there's no real amazing complicated--

00:10:17   >> It's got weird serifs, though. Like, it is--I think Swift has pointy edges. I think

00:10:21   the more you look into it, the more you see some strain. It's kind of more of a mongrel.

00:10:25   It's like Helvetica, but occasionally, like, they have, like, dingbats in the middle of

00:10:28   a cup of something.

00:10:29   [laughter]

00:10:30   >> Right. It's like Helvetica and they've added a couple of Apple-specific emojis right to

00:10:35   the main character set. So you, Marco, you haven't looked at it yet.

00:10:42   Well, you know, I think it's not PHP, you know. I've looked at it, you know, for 10

00:10:52   minutes. So, you know, none of us, well unless there's random Apple people here,

00:10:56   although even they didn't use much of it yet, but none of us have really used it

00:11:00   yet, you know. We're not going to know whether it's a good language or not for

00:11:04   a while. You know, it's good because it takes, you have to almost master a language to really

00:11:09   know whether it's good or not. And usually most languages aren't, you know, categorically

00:11:14   good or bad. There's, you know, pluses and minuses. So I think right now you can look

00:11:17   at it the same way that when a whole rush of programmers came to iOS for the first time

00:11:23   to make apps for the App Store and the big gold rush, everyone looked at Objective-C and

00:11:27   was like, "What a weird language. There's all these brackets everywhere and what the

00:11:30   the heck does that method definition, what's that weird syntax?

00:11:33   And it looked weird and foreign to them, but the language is actually much better than that once you get used to it.

00:11:39   So with Swift,

00:11:40   I think we're looking at it now and a lot of us are saying this is amazing,

00:11:44   but it might actually end up being worse than we think because we aren't familiar with it yet.

00:11:47   It's probably going to be better than we think,

00:11:49   but it's going to take just a while before any of us are familiar enough to really make that call.

00:11:54   I think it has the same effect as like the new look for like iOS 7 or Yosemite.

00:11:58   I was saying this back there, when they put Objective-C up on the slides now, after you've

00:12:02   seen Swift for a while, you can't go back to look at the old...

00:12:06   I mean, whether it's better or not, it's such a huge leap over Objective-C in terms of capabilities

00:12:11   and compactness and expressiveness that it's really hard to go back and look at Objective-C

00:12:16   examples 'cause you see all this noise that's not there in Swift.

00:12:19   And I don't think we'll ever be able to go back.

00:12:22   No matter how Swift ends up, maybe it has terrible warts or real design problems or

00:12:26   whatever, it's clear that Apple's committed to it and we're going to be using it.

00:12:29   Well, you guys are.

00:12:31   >> It's also kind of weird that it kind of came out as this fully formed idea.

00:12:36   And they mentioned they're going to revise it slightly over time with our feedback, but

00:12:41   it came out of nowhere and all of a sudden it's boom, this pretty advanced language with

00:12:47   tons of capabilities out of the blue.

00:12:50   like fully designed within this little you know subset this very small subset

00:12:55   of Apple fully designed here this is our language period yeah it came out and it

00:13:01   not only wasn't leaked it or rumored it wasn't even on people's wish list like

00:13:06   you know there was one of us really I don't think any of us expected this

00:13:15   would come out this year at all. I mean, many of us, myself included, didn't expect Objective-C

00:13:21   to be replaced for the next decade.

00:13:25   And you mentioned this specifically, that it's Tuesday. We've only known about it for

00:13:30   36 hours or so. You're not going to say, "Hey, when I rewrite the overcast download manager

00:13:38   for the fifth time, I'm going to use Swift."

00:13:39   Please, no.

00:13:44   But it does seem like, it seems like one of the ways that I think it, I would bet heavily

00:13:49   on it working out and very quickly, you know like in a way like that whatever you thought

00:13:55   about the iOS 7 look when it first came out, whether you loved it right away or you hate

00:13:59   it or whatever, I think you're in to the, you know, to the week.

00:14:05   When you look back at the old iOS, it's like, ooh, you know, it really looks bad.

00:14:10   It looks old.

00:14:11   And I think that it's not going to take long before Objective-C takes on that look of,

00:14:15   "Oh my God."

00:14:16   We're already there, I think.

00:14:17   Right.

00:14:18   Oh, absolutely.

00:14:19   I mean, and during the presentations, they'll flip back and forth between slides in Objective-C

00:14:22   and slides in Swift.

00:14:24   And just like John said, the moment you get back to Objective-C, it's like, "Well, that

00:14:27   feels cushy and familiar, but ooh, that..."

00:14:29   It's like an old girlfriend or boyfriend, right?

00:14:31   You know, it's like at the time, that was...

00:14:33   I really liked him or her, but now, 10, 15 years on, ooh, they didn't do too well after

00:14:39   that.

00:14:40   Wow.

00:14:41   But I...

00:14:43   [laughter]

00:14:47   There's a...

00:14:49   Two ways that I think that it's gonna get uptake quickly is one is that they're...

00:14:55   They still have all the same frameworks. The frameworks are the same.

00:14:59   It's a new language on top of the frameworks. So they're not saying

00:15:02   "We've introduced this new thing and it's all new and it's the next generation thing and you kinda have to go all in at once."

00:15:09   once and oh and we've only done this much of it so far. It's already all of the

00:15:13   frameworks and I think that's huge and it means that you can think about

00:15:17   starting to use it right away and then I think the other thing is the way that

00:15:21   they're really encouraging and emphasizing at least that I've seen so

00:15:24   far just in the first day that you can start taking existing apps and just

00:15:28   rewrite one class using Swift and you know just go like that or just start

00:15:32   adding your new you know new features in Swift and keep the old stuff you don't

00:15:36   have to rewrite the whole app. You don't have to have a Swift app or an Objective-C app.

00:15:41   They're just Cocoa apps and parts are written in Objective-C and parts are written in Swift.

00:15:46   We saw this before with Arc. What was it, two years ago, something like that? It was

00:15:50   a similar situation where, look at this really new cool thing and you can use it selectively

00:15:54   here and there, but clearly it's in everyone's best interest. It's in Apple's best interest.

00:15:59   It's in our best interest to embrace this and really run with it. And so it's a very

00:16:03   similar tact as to what happened with R.

00:16:06   I'm also pretty confident that, you know, if you think about,

00:16:09   I think the chances of this being a very good language are very high,

00:16:12   because Objective-C is a very good language,

00:16:15   in a lot of ways. I'm a big fan of it.

00:16:18   Probably just because I know it. I like PHP. But that's, we all know, you know.

00:16:22   But if you think about the amount of thought and criticism

00:16:27   that must have come to this language during its development,

00:16:30   from the people at Apple who decide what programming language they use.

00:16:34   Those people are probably not only very smart, but also extremely critical

00:16:39   and careful when making a change like this.

00:16:42   And so I think it's very, very likely to end up being a very good language

00:16:46   because of how it came to be.

00:16:48   But what about the small, we were talking about this backstage too,

00:16:50   what about the small group of people that have seen this?

00:16:52   Because it has been so secret and some Apple, some groups inside Apple

00:16:55   have been looking at it, but like, I think, I don't know if you can test that out

00:16:58   of these developers here in the audience, I'm presuming,

00:17:01   like when they showed you dot dot and dot dot dot

00:17:03   and explained how they were different,

00:17:05   didn't you all like-- - Yeah, what the hell is that?

00:17:06   - Right after this live where they told you

00:17:08   about how they don't have fall throughs

00:17:09   on the case statements and require brackets on the ifs,

00:17:12   but then we made our own mistake

00:17:13   that you're gonna regret 20 years from now.

00:17:15   We made two different operators that differ by a period

00:17:17   that behave differently to make off by one errors.

00:17:20   I don't think that would have survived

00:17:22   like contact with the outside world.

00:17:24   And so it shows that the group that they have inside Apple,

00:17:27   I'm not saying it's like insular, but they have to keep it secret for four years.

00:17:31   Alright, time out. I'll explain.

00:17:33   [laughter]

00:17:35   It's called a range operator.

00:17:37   Yeah, but there's thousands of people out there

00:17:39   listening to the show later. I'm talking to them.

00:17:42   [laughter]

00:17:44   So there's something called a range operator,

00:17:46   and you can write, like the digit, 1,

00:17:48   dot, dot, dot,

00:17:50   5, and that returns

00:17:52   an array of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

00:17:55   or five. It fills it in with, it knows if it are integers, it knows that the ones in

00:18:00   the middle are the dot dot dot. It makes sense.

00:18:04   >> Explain counting to the audience. Good job.

00:18:06   >> But if, if you only use two dots, if you do one dot dot five, it doesn't return the

00:18:14   last item. It returns one, two, three, four. The missing dot means don't give me the last

00:18:20   one. And so it, it makes total sense to a Perl programmer.

00:18:24   No, I think you said it the opposite. Isn't two dots includes both endpoints and three dots doesn't include the last one?

00:18:29   I forget what it is. No, more dots includes more.

00:18:31   Anyway, I didn't come up with a mnemonic for it. Pearl uses just two dots and it's a range operator.

00:18:38   It's also a flip-flop and scalar context, but don't worry about it.

00:18:41   But yeah, but like no, that's that's the type of mistake that makes me wonder about

00:18:46   about it. And again, they said that we reserve the right to change the syntax. We hope we'll get feedback.

00:18:51   so it's not a big deal, but like, you know, that being secret for four years is gonna have effects.

00:18:55   It really says something, this feature is so bad, it's not even in PHP.

00:18:59   It's not in PHP yet, give them time.

00:19:02   I do think, and you know, a

00:19:06   programming language is no different in broad aspects from anything, even something visual, and it, I think Apple runs into this time and time again

00:19:14   with the secrecy and

00:19:16   the way you keep stuff secret is by keeping it a small team and not going outside the team.

00:19:21   And then the smaller the team, the more likely that there's some sort of blind spot on the team.

00:19:26   And whenever we see a major new initiative, I think iOS 7 is a good example.

00:19:31   And that probably wasn't a super tightly held secret within the company,

00:19:34   but it was secret enough that there weren't screenshots that leaked.

00:19:37   And what they showed us a year ago at WWDC had a couple of really glaring, like,

00:19:45   really? You're gonna go that thin on the font for mail that I can't see it?

00:19:50   It's not so much a blind spot as that the group that's doing it has a hierarchy.

00:19:54   And so even if there's feedback within the group that we think this is a bad idea,

00:19:58   if enough people in charge don't think it is, they overweigh the masses.

00:20:01   Whereas when you put it out to the public, then it's, you know,

00:20:04   however many million iOS programmers out there sending feedback.

00:20:07   And that is like, alright, well we can't, there's no hierarchy among them.

00:20:10   It's just, you know, that's the public telling us.

00:20:12   Oh, there is.

00:20:13   It's not as straightforward as reporting relationships inside Apple corporate.

00:20:19   >> So one of the other things I took away from the keynote yesterday is -- and I think

00:20:22   it's -- I don't see how anybody could deny it. I think it was a year ago at the all things

00:20:28   D conference. Now it's the recode conference. But I think that's when Tim Cook said that

00:20:32   he was going to -- Apple was going to double down on secrecy. I think the question was

00:20:36   posed to him along the lines of, hey, you guys are so famously secretive, but you've

00:20:39   had some leaks. Are you guys going to open up some more? And he was like, no, no, we're

00:20:42   We're going to double down on secrecy.

00:20:44   We're more committed to it than ever.

00:20:45   We think our customers like to have a surprise.

00:20:48   And we think competitively it's to our advantages.

00:20:50   And then other stuff leaks, mostly hardware.

00:20:53   And everybody laughs at it.

00:20:54   It's like, aha, Tim Cook says they're doubling down on secrecy.

00:20:57   But look at all the stuff that leaks.

00:21:00   I think it's very clear.

00:21:01   At least there might be some exception somewhere that I'm thinking.

00:21:05   But in general terms, the only stuff that leaks from Apple recently

00:21:09   is hardware from the supply chain in Asia.

00:21:13   That it just seems like there's too many places there

00:21:16   where there's factories and bribes

00:21:18   and too many people who are seeing

00:21:20   these prototype shells coming out

00:21:23   and too much money from the case,

00:21:25   the people who make the cases to put on the phone

00:21:27   who want them and are willing to pay

00:21:29   tens of thousands of dollars to get them

00:21:31   so that they can have their case ready

00:21:32   before their competitors.

00:21:34   But in terms of stuff that just happens at Apple's campus,

00:21:38   the secrecy I think is better than ever. Especially you know the whole

00:21:42   programming language, the screenshots like Yosemite, I mean everybody had

00:21:46   guesses what it was going to look like but to my knowledge not a single actual

00:21:50   screenshot leaked.

00:21:51   Yeah I mean that's that one of the most impressive parts about the keynote is

00:21:55   how much stuff blew our minds

00:21:58   not only because it was major but because we didn't see it coming.

00:22:01   You know and like you know Yosemite is a great example. You know it even like a

00:22:06   a week ago, two weeks ago, you were predicting that they would have problems with how to

00:22:10   deal with window shadows in a new flattened environment because we were all predicting

00:22:14   oh, iOS 7 was a radical redesign and so therefore this is going to be a radical redesign and

00:22:21   it's going to look nothing like it did before and it turns out it looks a lot like it did

00:22:23   before. It's an evolution of the design and it's a bigger step than they usually take

00:22:31   in one revision, but you could see them like making small steps over the next four releases

00:22:36   getting where it is anyway. And so all these crazy predictions that we had that it would

00:22:41   look crazy, just totally unfamiliar, totally different, everything's all flattened with

00:22:47   thin lines, that didn't come to be. And what they gave us is something that honestly just

00:22:53   makes a lot more sense.

00:22:54   Yeah, it doesn't look like iOS, it looks related to iOS.

00:22:59   You know, like siblings who don't even look that much alike, but they kind of look clearly like siblings.

00:23:04   It's definitely not like iOS running on the iPad, which is what I was kind of worried about.

00:23:09   Yeah, oh yeah, I think we were all probably worried about that.

00:23:11   And I think when they were about to show it, I think we were all probably like,

00:23:15   "Here we go, they're going to kill our beloved Mac, it's going to be really weird,

00:23:19   and I guess we'll eventually get used to it."

00:23:21   but we didn't have to do that. It turns out it's fine.

00:23:24   What about the icons?

00:23:28   Because that to me is the one thing that everybody loves to gripe about.

00:23:31   And in iOS 7, I would say like, at this time a year ago,

00:23:34   I would say 80% of what I was hearing was about how fucking ugly the iOS 7 icons were.

00:23:39   And it's like, alright, let's just even concede the point that these icons are ugly.

00:23:43   The whole OS was redesigned. Can we talk about something else?

00:23:46   And I feel like with the Mac OS X, they didn't go to a unified shape,

00:23:50   which is what I kind of thought they were gonna do because it just seemed I didn't know if it would be the same as

00:23:54   iOS or if it would be a circle, but I kind of thought they would because it seemed like

00:23:58   That's the direction they were going, but they didn't it's you know

00:24:01   They're just a little bit more iOS II but not really they did three shapes, right? Yeah, it was three

00:24:06   It's like the it's circular and then like a tilted rectangle right and then and then a rounded rect or something along those lines

00:24:13   Yeah, and I actually really like them. I don't know if it's like shiny then

00:24:16   I'm just excited about something new but I actually really like them

00:24:19   I don't like them as much as John likes the settings icon, which is a lot.

00:24:23   But I do like them overall.

00:24:27   Yeah, and I think it's, if you look at what we have today

00:24:31   and previous to Yosemite, it was looking a little bit dated.

00:24:35   When you have a dock full of all these icons that are all radically different shapes and some of them

00:24:39   haven't been updated in a decade, it does kind of look dated.

00:24:43   And I think this is a nice way to modernize it without being

00:24:47   restrictive to iOS and maybe the reason why we got these this flexibility of

00:24:53   having three shapes to choose from which for Apple is flexibility

00:24:56   I maybe I know is that actually like they like the they're recommending you

00:25:01   choose one of those is the recommendation people still get it's

00:25:04   like iOS people still gonna do whatever they want with their icon right but

00:25:06   they've officially said though that these are the three shapes you should

00:25:09   choose from I didn't know that even Apple you'll be like are they gonna

00:25:12   update font book to be looked at that one of the new icons like so there's

00:25:15   always some app that doesn't get the nice treatment. I didn't know that. Well and I

00:25:18   think that I think that's why we got these options because I bet even Apple

00:25:22   internally could not decide on any of these shapes to have all of their icons

00:25:26   become that shape. So we got choice. Well the one thing I'm also very excited

00:25:31   about is perhaps the sea of blue icons on my dock at least they'll be like a

00:25:35   circular blue icon and a tilted blue icon and then a square blue icon. I think

00:25:39   I think I'll get some orange now.

00:25:41   iTunes is red.

00:25:43   I think.

00:25:45   Do you think it's safe to say, and we can poll the audience in a second,

00:25:47   but do you think it's safe to say that

00:25:49   the Yosemite design

00:25:51   is far less

00:25:53   contentious than iOS 7?

00:25:55   Only because iOS 7 came first though.

00:25:57   If this came before iOS 7, we'd be flipping out.

00:25:59   Because we wouldn't know that taking

00:26:01   borders off the buttons was even an option if iOS 7

00:26:03   didn't come first. Now we're like, thank god the buttons have

00:26:05   boxes around them, everything's fine.

00:26:07   (audience laughing)

00:26:10   - That's honestly my, I think I texted Dave Whiskus

00:26:13   afterwards where we were talking about, you know,

00:26:14   how we're gonna do Vespyr for Mac,

00:26:15   and like, I just like all capped it.

00:26:17   I was like, buttons look like buttons.

00:26:20   I have it, I have a review unit for the Apple,

00:26:27   so it gave me running 10.8 already,

00:26:30   so I've spent a couple hours on it today,

00:26:31   and you do too, but you guys haven't really,

00:26:35   I mean, it's only one day,

00:26:36   you guys haven't installed it yet?

00:26:37   care about the Mac. Only half of us get press passes. You just have a Mac just to open up

00:26:41   Xcode, right? I mean I haven't sold Xcode 6 which looks good. I played with the playground

00:26:46   stuff for Swift and that looks really awesome but the only stuff on Yosemite I've seen is

00:26:51   watching over John's shoulder as he was fiddling with it earlier today. We're not special enough

00:26:55   to get review units so. You know just poking around and going through settings and stuff,

00:27:00   I'm surprised, maybe even in a good way, I think in a good way, that it's really is mostly

00:27:08   a skin deep change. It's really just a new theme and very little else has changed. Even

00:27:14   little things that I really thought were going to go away, like the blue or graphite highlight

00:27:21   color choice thing, which, you know, I know why they did it back in 2001. It was because

00:27:27   everybody flipped out because my god bright blue you know I don't like bright

00:27:31   blue and they're like all right here you go here's something dull which I've been

00:27:34   running for 14 years but that option is still there exactly the wording is

00:27:40   unchanged the you know I think what you were all afraid of is that was gonna be

00:27:44   like Windows 8 where like finders gone all it is is a big sidebar that sweeps

00:27:47   in from the side that has a grid of icon or launchpad is the new finder or system

00:27:51   preferences now is a full screen app and the icons are giant like it's not it's

00:27:54   just like you said a recent then there's an awful lot of apps that to me just

00:27:58   look just just the theme is different everything else is pretty much the same

00:28:02   there's you know a lot of apps that are just unchanged and I I'm pretty happy

00:28:07   about that and the new look at like when I saw on the slides you're like I'm not

00:28:10   sure about it or whatever but when you see it when you see it in the element

00:28:13   like like look in the new Safari when it all kind of comes together you're like

00:28:16   all right it's coherent it is all of a piece whether you like it or not it

00:28:20   doesn't look like something slapped together you can kind of see a

00:28:23   a continuous aesthetic on it, which is nice.

00:28:26   I mean, apps that have not been completely converted,

00:28:28   like if you just take your app that had never knew Yosemite

00:28:30   existed and launch it, maybe that'll look odd.

00:28:32   But Apple's own apps are leading the way

00:28:34   in a reasonable way of saying, this

00:28:36   is what they could look like, check it out.

00:28:38   Their apps are simple.

00:28:39   They have one title bar, one sidebar, and a source list

00:28:41   or whatever.

00:28:42   I don't know what Photoshop would look like,

00:28:44   not that they use native UI.

00:28:46   Yeah, and I think when I've seen the screenshots

00:28:48   and little demos using it here and there,

00:28:51   the most jarring change to me is the font change, which we were all, you know, like

00:28:56   we've been saying, we've been thinking for a long time, oh, well, they're probably going

00:29:00   to change the font, it's probably going to be a Helvetica variant, we're going to have

00:29:03   to deal with that along with as they blow up the rest of the interface, you know, and

00:29:07   that ends up, that's like the biggest, most noticeable change most of the time.

00:29:11   I also think that it looks natural on a retina display, now maybe that's because that's the

00:29:16   review unit that gave me is a retina MacBook Pro, so that's what I've seen it on, but I've

00:29:21   never thought that Mac OS X looked quite right on a retina display until now

00:29:24   because it just always looked to me fake like a fake version of Mac OS X ginned

00:29:29   up for a movie. Yeah it's like when you have an HD version of movie you can see

00:29:33   the actors makeup. Right, yeah that's what it always looked like to me it's like

00:29:36   and and part of it is the font but lucid a grand whatever you know however great

00:29:40   it was in 2001 2002 with our big fat pixels on CRT displays back then and the

00:29:47   way that all the hinting helped the strokes fall on the pixel grid. We don't

00:29:52   need to worry about that shit anymore. I mean we have retina displays and nobody

00:29:55   at doing 300 dpi print output would ever use Lucida Grant. The thing about the old

00:30:02   look was that all the interest was in the surface details. This looks like it's

00:30:05   kind of made out of metal and this looks like it's kind of shiny or whatever and

00:30:08   when you take all that away and they did take it all away with the flatness and

00:30:11   everything, the only thing you have left to lean on aesthetically speaking is

00:30:15   sharpness and so this looks great on a, I think it doesn't look as good on a

00:30:19   non-retin display. On a retina display it's like what we have here is cleanliness,

00:30:22   sharpness and this theme takes advantage of that and I think this this theme

00:30:26   would not be as successful if retina didn't exist. Oh I definitely think so. I

00:30:30   don't think you know I know way that this theme would look and I don't think

00:30:35   iOS would either you know I don't think there was any world where the iOS 7 look

00:30:39   would have ever hit before those devices all went retina. Except for the poor iPad

00:30:45   mini first gen that's a sad device that really is because we all bought them

00:30:49   because they were so small and so light and it's man this screen and now that

00:30:54   the retina ones exist and you look at that like first of all like how long are

00:30:57   they gonna actually keep supporting the a5 like you know we lucked out this year

00:31:01   but now it's now the minimum so I'm thinking it's not getting iOS 9 Apple PR

00:31:08   will never they're all everybody works there's you know a pro and they'll never

00:31:12   ever utter, even off the record, a single word that is against Apple's interests. Because

00:31:18   they're PR people. That's what they do. And I remember at WWDC last year after the keynote,

00:31:23   when I got the briefing and the, you know, what do you think about iOS 7 and do you have

00:31:26   any questions? I got to ask questions. And one of my questions was, everything you're

00:31:30   showing -- this all looks great. I really like it. I think it's a great direction. But

00:31:33   every device you're showing it to me on is a retina display. What about the iPad mini?

00:31:37   Is it going to get the same look? And they're like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, can I see

00:31:41   and they were like, "Not yet."

00:31:43   And I was like, "Is it gonna look good?"

00:31:46   And there was like no answer. It was like, "Yeah! Yeah, it looks fine."

00:31:51   And then there was like, you know, somebody was there already with like another question like, you know,

00:31:56   "How's your son?"

00:31:58   And they're still selling those new.

00:32:00   Right.

00:32:01   Like, there's gonna be a lot of disappointed retina, I mean, non-retina iPad mini owners in about a year, you know,

00:32:08   know like I hope this fall they at least stop selling them and then you know next

00:32:12   year iOS 9 announced no more a5 devices there's a lot of a5 devices out there

00:32:17   yeah totally the other the last big ticket thing is that to me it was the

00:32:24   keynote yesterday was a sign of how Apple is playing a very long game in

00:32:29   most of these regards and I think that they've got a years-long roadmap and

00:32:36   and plan and we only see them on these four month, six month intervals of here's what

00:32:43   we have ready for you now. And it's so easy and I think so many people who misunderstand

00:32:48   the company think that in between one and the next everything they've done is what they've

00:32:53   done in between the next. That everything they announced today is all the stuff that

00:32:57   they've decided to do in the last 12 months since last WWDC. And so you see it like you

00:33:02   You see it with the keyboards on the third party keyboards for iOS.

00:33:08   And there were questions, people in the press area after the thing,

00:33:11   they're asking, well, what made you change your mind on these?

00:33:15   Is it because they're so popular on Android?

00:33:17   Is it customers are asking for it?

00:33:19   And we've been working on this for years.

00:33:23   And you can argue maybe engineering-wise it shouldn't have taken years,

00:33:25   but their explanation is that they've been thinking about it for a long time.

00:33:29   I mean, we've been talking about XPC at WWDCs for years of inter-application communication,

00:33:37   and how are they going to do it?

00:33:38   And I think that, you know, typical Apple, they wanted to get it right.

00:33:42   And that's just a sign of it.

00:33:43   >> People have short memories, though.

00:33:44   Like, wasn't it last year's WWDC where third-party keyboards was, like, guaranteed a lock for

00:33:48   the keynote?

00:33:49   Remember that rumor?

00:33:50   >> Yeah, Swipe even published it on their site.

00:33:52   >> Yeah.

00:33:53   >> Yeah.

00:33:54   Well, I mean, and, you know, the press, to be fair, you know, the press usually, most

00:33:57   of them aren't as smart as you.

00:33:58   of them, you know, we asked them to remember a lot. You know, in this business, we asked

00:34:06   them to remember a lot. Like, can you name the whatever phone 12 months ago was the iPhone

00:34:13   killer that month? There's a lot going on in the press. Apple keeps dying and being

00:34:19   doomed and, you know, and they just can't remember simple things like that, you know,

00:34:25   products take more than a year to develop. The one thing they announced

00:34:29   yesterday that I that it makes me wonder whether they've changed their mind over

00:34:35   the last few years is iCloud Drive because it it seemed to me that and

00:34:42   maybe that was just the spin at the time before they had the fun function but it

00:34:46   seemed to me that there are an awful lot of people who were saying okay with the

00:34:51   iCloud documents, why can't you build something that is just like Dropbox?

00:34:55   Right? Long story short, just build a thing that's just like Dropbox but takes

00:34:59   my iCloud credentials and then it's, you know, it's not like a nasty finder hack,

00:35:02   it's built into the system. And their answer was, you know, I don't know, no.

00:35:09   Maybe, you know, again, maybe who knows, maybe who even knows who's in the

00:35:13   audience? There's some poor guy from Apple in the audience who's been working

00:35:16   on iCloud Drive for six years and, you know, non-stop with the original vision

00:35:21   that is exactly like what they announced yesterday but I don't know it makes me

00:35:24   think that maybe they thought they could get away with not having a here's where

00:35:29   you're going to save your files experience on iOS and maybe they've come

00:35:33   to conclude that that was wrong or short-sighted yeah you know when I first

00:35:38   when I first launched the magazine I tried not having a settings panel so I

00:35:43   was like you know settings panels are a clunky hack let me see if I can just get

00:35:47   away with not having any settings at all I'll just make good decisions and I'll

00:35:50   surface things contextually. And it turned out that that was a bad idea.

00:35:54   It required me to do other bad hacks that made the overall

00:35:58   product actually worse and I had to eventually backtrack on that.

00:36:02   iCloud document model storage and iCloud file storage

00:36:06   I think had a similar problem where they designed it with this goal

00:36:10   in mind of let's get rid of files and folders exposed to the user

00:36:14   and let's make this thing just sync and it helped that iOS never had that

00:36:18   from the start. So let's just give these little silos inside of each app and

00:36:23   they'll all have these flat lists of files in that app and they won't be able

00:36:27   to talk to each other and that'll be fine. That's kind of how iOS works. And

00:36:30   then they brought it to Mac and it was like well they're kind of in this hidden

00:36:34   folder buried somewhere deeply in the hierarchy that you're not supposed to

00:36:37   deal with but just trust us it's there somewhere plus you have all these other

00:36:39   files somewhere. And I think that proved to be a model that they they had this

00:36:44   goal in mind of the simplicity but the reality of that, the practicality of people using

00:36:52   that and you know multiple app productivity and simple things like where are these files

00:36:57   so I can back them up.

00:36:59   Simple things like that, the reality made that idea worse in practice and they would

00:37:04   have had to do a bunch of crazy hacks, they tried, to do a bunch of crazy hacks to make

00:37:09   it work out that actually made a worse overall experience.

00:37:13   So I think this is them recognizing, you know what, one common place where you store files

00:37:18   that behaves like a folder full of other folders, people are okay with that.

00:37:23   You know, give people a little bit of credit, that folder might not be where you want it

00:37:27   to be, it might be their desktop, but people do that.

00:37:30   They are okay with having all files live in one place for all applications with these

00:37:34   little subfolders maybe for some applications.

00:37:37   That's a model that works.

00:37:38   has proven it, computers before that proved it, people are okay with that. And I think

00:37:43   this is Apple realizing like if we're going to start breaking down some of these productivity

00:37:47   barriers between iOS and Mac and everything like that and interactive communications,

00:37:51   this is, this will go a long way if we just give up a little bit of our vision about what

00:37:56   iCloud was supposed to be.

00:37:58   So are you at all nervous, John, about the fact that they are putting a lot of eggs in

00:38:02   the iCloud basket? And I know it's almost trendy to bitch and moan about how iCloud

00:38:06   doesn't work the way they say it should and so on.

00:38:09   But I mean, it seems to me like they're going all in on iCloud.

00:38:14   And that could be dangerous.

00:38:16   Like how do you feel about that?

00:38:17   Well, dangerous how?

00:38:18   Just because we-- especially as developers, a lot of us

00:38:21   don't have any faith in the fact that iCloud is really strong,

00:38:24   stable, available, et cetera.

00:38:27   And so now Apple is saying, no, really.

00:38:30   We are all in on iCloud.

00:38:32   So you guys are-- you might as well come along.

00:38:33   And I didn't go to the Cloud Kit session today.

00:38:35   but I've heard unbelievably positive things about it.

00:38:38   So do you have, like how does that make you feel?

00:38:41   Are you nervous at all?

00:38:42   Or are you like, yeah, it'll be fine?

00:38:43   - I think it's inevitable.

00:38:44   I don't think they have a choice.

00:38:45   I think that, and again, I might be reading into this,

00:38:49   John, you might know, 'cause you were actually

00:38:50   at the conference all day and not sleeping.

00:38:53   But it seems like they're not doing away with it,

00:38:57   because if you're already using it,

00:38:58   they're gonna keep counting.

00:38:59   But it seems like the thing that they're no longer

00:39:01   talking about is iCloud Core Data Syncing.

00:39:03   - Yeah, they're still talking about it.

00:39:04   at the end of the CloudKit session,

00:39:06   they were like, we got all these iCloud things.

00:39:08   When should I use each one?

00:39:09   Remember them all, key value storage,

00:39:11   and the documents in the cloud,

00:39:12   and iCloud Core Data, and now CloudKit.

00:39:15   And they went through them all and said,

00:39:16   here's when you should use this.

00:39:17   When they get down to iCloud Core Data,

00:39:18   they're gonna say never, but they didn't.

00:39:20   I mean, they put a brave face on it,

00:39:22   but CloudKit does a lot of similar things to iCloud,

00:39:25   in a different way to iCloud Core Data.

00:39:26   So I'm not sure, they didn't come right out and say,

00:39:28   we're deprecating the ways it didn't work,

00:39:30   and this is the new way, but they have a suite of things

00:39:33   under the umbrella of iCloud and some of them are better than others and we're

00:39:36   all hoping these new ones are the best yet we'll find out. Right you know I

00:39:41   think I think they'll make it work because I think that they know I don't

00:39:44   think there's any doubt that they know that they have to do well at it I think

00:39:48   the things you have to worry about with Apple are the things where it seems like

00:39:50   they don't they don't seem to think it's important. Well they committed to iCloud

00:39:55   the first time when Jobs was up there and said oh it's not along a digital hub

00:39:58   now the cloud is in the middle of lines come out from that and that seemed like

00:40:01   a recommitment to it but what they offered was some good, some bad. I'm getting a better

00:40:06   vibe from the new stuff because it seems like all the things that you like that worked well

00:40:10   about iCloud, these are more like those. Or in the case of CloudKit, this is more like

00:40:15   what everyone was doing instead of using iCloud core data. They were forced to do their own

00:40:18   thing and they would use SQLite database with like FC model or FMDB or whatever. This is

00:40:23   like that but with an Apple twist and really awesome and everything.

00:40:27   that's actually pretty similar like the what happened between core data plus

00:40:30   iCloud and now the new cloud kit is actually very similar I was just saying

00:40:34   about like how like their original view or their original vision of this is how

00:40:39   we're gonna do iCloud it's gonna have this magical sink you just keep using

00:40:42   core data everything's you keep using as normal and it just magically sinks and

00:40:46   of course that that wasn't a server problem that was a design problem well

00:40:51   the core data predated iCloud that was the problem so what we have this one

00:40:53   called core data it would be great to put up a slide that says then it works

00:40:56   on iCloud and then everything will be fine. That was basically and they

00:40:59   basically that's what they when they announce core data for iCloud that's

00:41:01   what they did and so I think cloud kit is them again it's like it's similar to

00:41:06   how they kind of made iCloud file picking a little more like Dropbox

00:41:10   because that's what people actually need and it's a it's a better overall design

00:41:13   in reality. I think cloud kit is solving many of the same needs as iCloud core

00:41:19   data but it is a much better design for reality. The one thing and and you know

00:41:24   no surprise. I mean everybody knows Apple is an ecosystem company and that they want,

00:41:28   you know, stuff is supposed to work better. And we don't have time to get into all the

00:41:32   continuity stuff. But the continuity stuff is an acknowledgement of that. That if you

00:41:36   have an iPhone and a Mac, you get this amazing feature that you could not have if you used

00:41:42   an Android phone where you can start writing an email and switch to the Mac. And I played

00:41:47   with that and I got a demo of it and it works. It's very, very cool. I can definitely see

00:41:53   it but that they're adding all these other developer things though I think

00:41:58   with the hopes of getting more apps to go Apple only you know like I think the

00:42:05   idea would be like take an app like Instagram that had enormous server-side

00:42:10   cost because it's photos and lots of users and they want to be social and they

00:42:13   want to get a lot of people to sign up and I think that iCloud or a cloud kit

00:42:20   it is sort of a, "Hey, you want to build a thing like Instagram, don't even worry about

00:42:25   the server stuff and we'll give you really, really generous amounts of storage and bandwidth."

00:42:30   Well, for getting it off the ground, right? And there's a big question mark. Like, they

00:42:35   were like, "Here, it's free and you get all this for free." And then there was no, like,

00:42:39   what happens after that. I think what happens is you get a phone call from Apple and they're

00:42:44   like, "We need to talk." I'm guessing, though, it's going to be pretty price competitive.

00:42:48   That's what I think.

00:42:49   it's hard you know if you're looking at let's let's build a business on this you

00:42:53   know let's talk about Vesper right so the limit that they published this in a

00:42:59   public document so I don't know what the end the end a situation is weird it's

00:43:02   kind of unspecified who knows but the limit is it's something like a hundred

00:43:06   megs per user for like you know blob storage and then one meg for database

00:43:10   storage now that those sound low to me like you couldn't it would be

00:43:16   irresponsible for you to design something like Instagram knowing that as soon as

00:43:21   one of those users hit a hundred megs of photos something would stop and who

00:43:27   knows what your options would be at that point whether you'd even have any

00:43:31   options or whether like the call to cloudkit would just fail with an error

00:43:35   parameter it's it's a lot of stuff that suddenly be outside your control right

00:43:39   and like that's kind of it's it would be irresponsible to build on that knowing

00:43:43   that there's this wall that you could very,

00:43:46   it's not like the limit is five terabytes per user.

00:43:48   These are limits that are very plausibly hit and exceeded.

00:43:52   And so what do you do?

00:43:55   Do you just hope no one hits that?

00:43:56   That's not very smart.

00:43:58   - But like John said though,

00:44:00   if you're gonna build any service like this,

00:44:02   that's like a network-based service

00:44:03   that has a cloud backend,

00:44:05   you're gonna do it on an Apple-only platform?

00:44:08   Are they the A players in the server-side space?

00:44:12   And then you're going to-- because if you start getting

00:44:14   big, you're going to be like, oh, we're getting big.

00:44:16   We should make an Android version.

00:44:17   We should be on the Kindle.

00:44:18   We should-- oh.

00:44:20   And you can't.

00:44:20   Like, you're putting a cap on your potential.

00:44:22   If you ever want to be the next Instagram,

00:44:24   don't build on CloudKit.

00:44:25   But it's great for people who are not

00:44:27   going to be the next Instagram.

00:44:29   They just want to have a great application.

00:44:30   Like, I mean, again, with Vesper,

00:44:31   if you built it on CloudKit, you're

00:44:33   going to be an iOS on the Mac.

00:44:34   You could use CloudKit.

00:44:35   Who knows what we would have done a year ago if CloudKit

00:44:38   came out a year ago.

00:44:39   But I don't think we would have done anything differently.

00:44:41   I haven't seen anything that really makes me regret doing our own back end because of

00:44:45   that issue.

00:44:46   Like, do we have plans to write an Android app?

00:44:49   Well, I don't think Brent knows how to write Android apps, so no.

00:44:52   >> Brent can do anything.

00:44:53   Come on.

00:44:54   >> But it's a maybe down the road, you know, or a web app.

00:44:56   >> We can't even do a web app.

00:44:57   >> Right.

00:44:58   We could do a web app.

00:44:59   We couldn't even do a web app.

00:45:00   And we want to have those options.

00:45:01   And our thinking in broad strokes was, well, we could maybe do something quicker if we

00:45:05   build it on Dropbox or, you know, had an option to do Dropbox or had an option to do something

00:45:11   with the core data iCloud syncing and then we'd work on our own thing that we'd roll

00:45:15   out. But what I think whenever you make an engineering decision like that and you think

00:45:20   well we'll do this stopgap first because it's quicker and dirtier and easier and we'll

00:45:24   ship something first and then we'll do the real good version then you never do the good

00:45:29   version and you're stuck with the crappy one.

00:45:31   Data migration would kill you anyway. Right. You would never want to do the good version.

00:45:34   So if we wanted to do it eventually then we should have done it first and I think that

00:45:38   we did it the right way. I think SpriteKit is the same sort of idea. The idea with SpriteKit,

00:45:42   and it's a good one. It's not all about lock-in. It's not purely cynical. Hey, write your game

00:45:48   with SpriteKit and you'll save all this work, but then you'll be stuck with an iOS-only

00:45:52   game. I think it's, you know, from Apple's perspective, it's win-win. That's what Cocoa

00:45:58   and Cocoa Dutch have done for close to 30 years is take tedium away from programmers

00:46:05   and do a really good framework that you can count on.

00:46:09   But I wonder, I don't know what the uptake is on SpriteKit

00:46:12   because it just seems to me like most major effort

00:46:15   mobile games, more than any other kind of app

00:46:19   because of the nature of games, want to be cross platform

00:46:21   or want to be cross platform eventually.

00:46:23   And so I just don't know if SpriteKit's ever gonna

00:46:26   really take off.

00:46:27   - I think we're looking at this from the point of view of,

00:46:31   I mean I'm looking at something like CloudKit

00:46:33   and saying all right, well from the point of view

00:46:35   wanting to design a really big web service that has gonna have you know the

00:46:40   six-year lifespan and or more than that maybe and and you know possibly get to a

00:46:46   billion dollar valuation somehow like that's yeah it might not be good for

00:46:51   that but there's a massive class of problems that these kind of frameworks

00:46:54   solve that are on a much smaller scale like most developers are not working on

00:46:58   things like that most developers are working on much smaller apps that like

00:47:03   if the alternative is no backend, then CloudKit is really nice, because it's a backend you can use for limited value,

00:47:10   or for limited purposes, but that's enough for tons of applications.

00:47:15   SpriteKit very similar, like, yeah, you're not going to make the next, you know, Rovio company on that,

00:47:22   because you're not going to be able to address all these other platforms without hiring people to rewrite the engine

00:47:26   for all of them, and eventually convert it to OpenGL or whatever, but that's not what it's made to solve.

00:47:31   It's made to solve much smaller needs for a far larger

00:47:36   number of developers.

00:47:37   And once you exceed those limits for one of these things,

00:47:40   then you're probably big enough that you can't

00:47:41   afford to migrate.

00:47:43   Yeah, so for those of you who have listened to ATP, I've

00:47:45   talked on and off about how I really just want a really

00:47:47   solid app to share a grocery list with my wife.

00:47:50   And Reminders will do it, but it's crummy, and there's other

00:47:53   apps out there.

00:47:54   And for me, if I wanted to write something, I don't want

00:47:56   to have to worry about VPSs.

00:47:58   I don't have to worry about a lot of other things.

00:48:01   And so something like CloudKit is perfect for this app

00:48:04   that I want to write really to scratch my own itch.

00:48:06   And if I'd make a few bucks off of it, sweet.

00:48:08   But I'm never going to be a vesper.

00:48:10   I'm never going to be an Instapaper, an Overcast,

00:48:12   or anything like that.

00:48:13   And that's OK with you.

00:48:14   Don't say that.

00:48:15   Yeah, you never know.

00:48:16   You never know, man.

00:48:17   Have some confidence.

00:48:18   You could be a non-shipping app with the Overcast.

00:48:22   That's true.

00:48:23   That is very true.

00:48:25   One last topic on the nerd path. Because I think it's very telling about where Apple

00:48:34   is today. In a keynote, especially a WWDC keynote, because the event ones are more focused

00:48:40   because it's, hey, we've just got this new iPad and we want to show you. But WWDC, you

00:48:44   can see what Apple thinks is important based on what kind of stint it gets on stage, right?

00:48:49   There's the basic level of, oh, yeah, there's this thing and it'll just tell you and it'll

00:48:53   put up a slide and a thing. And then it's on to the next topic. Then there's like, bring

00:48:58   out a special guest and bring out like, you know, that's like at the far end is like bring

00:49:03   out like a third party and say, we brought them here a month ago. We tied them up in

00:49:07   a room and made them write this thing. And the one that got that, the only third party

00:49:11   that came on stage yesterday was Epic. And that was for metal. And yeah, that's really,

00:49:18   know it goes against the idea that they were focusing on the consumer stuff

00:49:23   right metal and it's a replacement for OpenGL and blah blah blah you know

00:49:28   millions of triangles per second but Apple clearly sees it as important

00:49:32   because they spent a lot of time on it and a big demo and I think it's so

00:49:38   interesting about where Apple is as a company today because it's not just that

00:49:42   they've replaced OpenGL is that they've gotten out of now the headache of OpenGL

00:49:48   is like a it's open it's got like a consortium behind it and so if they want

00:49:52   to get improvements to OpenGL so that it runs better on an a7 they've got to go

00:49:57   through this process and now fuck all that right like WebKit metal is exactly

00:50:04   what Apple wants for talking to the GPUs that they've designed it's like now

00:50:10   they've got an API for using the GPUs that was designed hand-in-hand with the

00:50:16   hardware guys who were making the GPUs and that is not something Apple ten

00:50:22   years ago could have done because Apple wasn't big enough. Microsoft could do it

00:50:25   they did it with DirectX and Microsoft could get away with it because

00:50:30   there were you know three four hundred million PCs out in the world and a

00:50:35   hundred million of them were people who wanted to play games and so Microsoft

00:50:38   could say we've got DirectX you're gonna program to DirectX and game developers

00:50:44   said yes.

00:50:46   DirectX had the advantage of learning from all of OpenGL's

00:50:48   mistakes because OpenGL was older.

00:50:50   So it is a little bit newer.

00:50:51   And DirectX, Apple, Microsoft has evolved it.

00:50:54   And it is a very capable API.

00:50:56   But I think on the metal front, a lot of that, I think,

00:50:58   was coming from game developers who were saying,

00:51:00   you've got a great GPU, but you're

00:51:02   making us use OpenGL ES.

00:51:04   And here's where it's stupid.

00:51:05   And like you said, Apple's like, well, we don't make OpenGL.

00:51:08   We don't define the standard.

00:51:09   We work with the consortium.

00:51:10   It's like trying to work with W3C.

00:51:12   It's a slow process.

00:51:13   And so game developers are like, well, what about now?

00:51:15   My shipping game now, I want to get closer to the metal.

00:51:18   And they pulled the name right out.

00:51:21   It's like AMD's mantle.

00:51:23   Game developers wanted this.

00:51:25   A game developer--

00:51:25   and what can Apple do?

00:51:26   Apple can't-- they're not going to go off and make their

00:51:28   own DirectX, because that's not what we want.

00:51:30   We know exactly what we want.

00:51:31   We know what the GPU is capable of.

00:51:33   Just give us more control.

00:51:34   So it's one of the rare cases where Apple enters a new API

00:51:36   that's lower level, and that it's because

00:51:38   developers wanted it.

00:51:39   They said, we want lower level.

00:51:40   Well, and then I think the other way that it'll work and it'll get uptake is that they've

00:51:44   clearly, this is one of those things where they were a little open, slightly with a short

00:51:48   list but they had Epic. They've got like I think the four big game engines on board already

00:51:54   and so it's the game engines that provide the higher level API that most game developers

00:51:59   spend most of their time in and they just get to take advantage of this 10x improvement.

00:52:05   But I know, and I know the guy even said like an order of magnitude improvement, but I don't

00:52:09   think people maybe some people don't really think that that could be true

00:52:12   that like year over year there's a 10x improvement in graphics but it's really

00:52:16   that true well I mean it's specific cases like an open GL API they want you

00:52:19   to like batch up your stuff and not do a bunch of different calls but just get it

00:52:22   gather up all your crap and make one call because doing the calls is

00:52:25   expensive and this is saying well I got a 10x speed up because I don't have to

00:52:28   do that anymore and I don't do this careful batching and trying to play nice

00:52:31   with open GL I can just send the calls and I mean I don't know enough of the

00:52:34   details of it but it's like it is it kind of a Taylor pick benchmark I like

00:52:38   "Oh, 10x in this particular operation."

00:52:40   But that particular operation happens all the time,

00:52:41   and you could work around it the old way,

00:52:42   but it was annoying, and I said,

00:52:43   "Geez, just let me talk to the GPU

00:52:45   the way it wants me to talk to it,

00:52:46   and I don't have to deal with this stuff."

00:52:48   - All right, whatever.

00:52:52   (audience laughing)

00:52:53   Now, let's take a break.

00:52:54   I wanna end up the nerdy part of the show.

00:52:57   I think that was pretty good.

00:52:59   But I have a surprise, and I have a surprise guest

00:53:03   from our friends at Apple,

00:53:05   and I know it was in the news last week.

00:53:08   Um, no, even better. Uh, I have a gift for you, Marco. And it's here from Dr. Dre. Ladies

00:53:16   and gentlemen, Dr. Dre. I read your site. I listen to your podcast. I know that you

00:53:28   love high end headphones. You can go, you can go ahead and open that.

00:53:35   I'll hold this. I think it would be fair for you to throw those on real quick.

00:53:38   So we... Is this real?

00:53:40   So I had Dre, I called Dre and you know he takes phone calls, he answered right on his Mac and I said Dre...

00:53:48   Well, we all have his number now. I need the best headphones in the world because this guy is really fucking picky.

00:53:53   I mean I sent him the URL of his headphone comparison. He's like, holy shit, man. That guy really knows his shit.

00:53:58   I got just the phones for him.

00:54:00   Beat Studio Special Edition.

00:54:02   You know the funny thing is actually I was in an Apple store recently and I tried these on and I thought you know actually

00:54:06   of all the beats

00:54:07   These actually don't sound that bad like I was like you know of all the all the ones here if I had to buy a

00:54:13   Pair of beats the studios are actually the least crappy sounding ones that they make way to ruin the bit

00:54:20   And they're overcast theme - totally yeah top secret my color is orange

00:54:28   I want to take a moment here. We have one more sponsor for the episode who I want to

00:54:32   thank and that is our good friends at Market Circle. Market Circle has two great apps.

00:54:37   You've probably heard of them both because they've sponsored my show before. They've

00:54:40   sponsored the site. But they have Billings Pro. Now that's a time tracking and invoicing

00:54:46   app. So anybody who does freelance work where you have to track your time, send invoices.

00:54:50   If you haven't looked at Billings Pro, you're nuts. It's a great app. They've got clients

00:54:54   for all your devices. And when you make your invoice, they've got templates and themes

00:55:00   and they come out looking great. So it's not like some kind of ugly thing where it looks

00:55:03   like a 1978 Vax printed out your invoice. Really, really top notch design. Great stuff.

00:55:11   And Daylight. Daylight is software for organizing your business. The way they describe it is

00:55:18   it's CRM with productivity features first as opposed to the other way around. So you

00:55:22   actually organize the people who are involved in the people you know in your

00:55:26   company in a way that looks like a real nice Mac or iOS app not some piece of

00:55:31   crap typical CRM stuff so markets are you can go to market circle calm and

00:55:37   check out their great stuff but they help sponsor this show and that's great

00:55:40   and the other thing I wanted to do is I wanted to mention it so AJ is the guy

00:55:43   from Market Circle and he's been a longtime fan of the show and he a couple

00:55:49   of weeks ago, I got a nice e-mail from somebody at iTunes about the explicit tag on this podcast.

00:55:57   And the fact that it wasn't there. And it was just, "Hey, we all love your show. It

00:56:01   was very nice, very personal." And we know there's not a lot of swearing on your show,

00:56:05   but it does come up occasionally. And we've started to get some complaints from parents.

00:56:12   And so, I've started. If you look at the feed, there's at least two episodes from the last

00:56:16   five or three or four that have the explicit tag because they're swearing.

00:56:19   Obviously this show is probably going to have to have the explicit tag.

00:56:22   And that very day I got an email and it just said, subject,

00:56:26   my son and the talk show. And I thought, Oh God, here it is.

00:56:29   And I almost didn't even read it. I don't want to read this.

00:56:33   And I clicked it and read it. And instead it was AJ writing me.

00:56:36   And he just said he has a 10 year old son and he's a huge fan of the show.

00:56:40   And I was like, wow, 10 years old.

00:56:42   My son does not want to listen to me talk about any of this stuff.

00:56:45   That's amazing! Ten years old and he loves the talk show.

00:56:49   And it's the only show he likes to... Sorry guys, it's the only show he likes to listen to.

00:56:53   And so AJ said that he'll listen to the talk show, because he's been a longtime listener,

00:56:57   and then he's like driving his son to school or soccer practice or something,

00:57:01   and he's like wants to listen to the talk show and he's got to listen to the episodes again,

00:57:03   because he's already listened to them and his son wants to listen to them.

00:57:06   Anyway, his son plays soccer and a week or so ago he was playing and he got injured, he got a concussion.

00:57:12   and he's been laid up since, can't play soccer, can't even listen, he's got like headaches, can't even listen to podcasts.

00:57:18   So his son's name is Kayden, and I just wanted to say something to him right here on the show,

00:57:24   because whenever he's better from this concussion, he's going to listen to it.

00:57:27   And I hope it's a nice thrill, but let's, everybody here in the show, let's hear it for Kayden, the 10-year-old fan of the talk show.

00:57:34   show. Alright, you lose your mic Casey. Alright, my next guest is my good friend, Mr. Scott

00:57:53   Scott Simpson.

00:58:00   I came in like a wrecking ball I never hit so hard in love

00:58:07   All I wanted was to break you up All you ever did was wreck me

00:58:15   I came in like a wrecking ball Yeah, I just closed my eyes and swung

00:58:23   ♪ Let me crush it in a blazing form ♪

00:58:27   ♪ All you ever did was wreck me ♪

00:58:32   ♪ Yeah you, you wreck me ♪

00:58:36   ♪ Yeah you, you wreck me ♪

00:58:39   - What's up San Francisco, The Talk Show,

00:58:43   worldwide developer something something.

00:58:45   (audience cheering)

00:58:47   Means clap your hands.

00:58:49   I feel like this show, I realized when I was backstage

00:58:52   waiting to go up.

00:58:53   My show is gonna be a mullet.

00:58:55   Business is over.

00:58:59   Now it's a party.

00:59:02   Hi, my name is Scott Simpson.

00:59:05   I worked at Apple for about eight years

00:59:09   and then I left to do stand-up comedy

00:59:11   about a year and a half ago.

00:59:13   For the money.

00:59:15   (audience laughing)

00:59:18   Just know that Marco's looking at my butt right now.

00:59:22   right there I mean and it's been going well and and if you don't know who I am

00:59:30   that's fine I assume you're a cretin or some type of hill person that's fine

00:59:38   though and I was talking to a friend of mine like hey how can I get my name out

00:59:41   there more as a comedian now that I'm doing comedy and he was like well what's

00:59:46   your theme song I was like what do you mean theme song he's like dude you gotta

00:59:51   have a theme song. I was like I don't have a theme song. He's like if you have

00:59:55   a theme song that people remember it they know it's you. It sounded like a great

01:00:00   idea so I sat down with my guitar in my office and I knocked out a little theme

01:00:07   song. Do you guys want to hear it? Alright let's listen to my the theme song that I

01:00:12   wrote for myself.

01:00:15   *

01:00:37   Scott.

01:00:39   Scott.

01:00:45   Fun Dad.

01:00:50   Scott.

01:00:55   That's my theme song. Thank you, thank you.

01:01:04   It was really fun to work with Lil Jon on that.

01:01:07   My friend Jessie Char has a great idea about Lil Jon.

01:01:12   She's like, "You know what? 2014, we have exactly the right amount of Lil Jon."

01:01:16   Like, Lil Jon's not food. Lil Jon's like a spice. You don't want too much Lil Jon.

01:01:21   You just want a lil Lil Jon.

01:01:23   I took that back to my people.

01:01:26   And they were like, "You know what? That's great.

01:01:29   But it's a little maybe a little edgy for your crowd.

01:01:35   So I went back to the drawing board and I tried another route.

01:01:41   So let's hear that next one.

01:01:44   Scott.

01:01:46   Scott.

01:01:48   Scott.

01:01:50   Scott.

01:01:52   Then they were like, what?

01:01:58   then they were like well it skews a little young like it's a little poppy

01:02:02   and maybe that's not your style try something a little a little more classic

01:02:06   a little older so I went back to the drawing board Scott

01:02:15   I agree I agree with you guys that one sucks so that one was too old so I tried

01:02:27   like another tack

01:02:29   Scott and they're like the voice is good and I was I was into it cuz like I

01:02:46   thought I sounded really good on that track so they're like try that same

01:02:50   voice and it's like some setting in GarageBand try that voice but try it

01:02:54   like a little more rocky.

01:02:56   [music]

01:03:04   Scott!

01:03:05   [music]

01:03:15   I realize now that I made too many of these,

01:03:19   But we're still gonna do them.

01:03:21   And then, you know, we realize like it does need to be a little more current, a little more, a little more interesting and fun.

01:03:30   Maybe bring it up a little bit in terms of energy. So let's give this one a listen.

01:03:35   Scott?

01:03:52   Mix-a-lot and I agreed that the messaging on that was a little weird.

01:03:59   So we got to this.

01:04:01   listen to this next one are you as bored of this joke as I am fuck you that was a

01:04:27   rhetorical question clappers. God damn it. Alright there's one more I said it on

01:04:36   this one. This is it. Are you booing me motherfucker? Get the fuck out of here!

01:04:42   Alright just one more.

01:04:46   Scott.

01:04:53   Scott use you want to have fun with anyone

01:04:58   but when I see you hanging about with anyone yeah I'm gonna go with turn down

01:05:05   for Scott I feel like that's the best one I'm gonna live with that huh thank

01:05:09   you it is it is very nice to be in San Francisco I live here I know a lot of

01:05:16   you folks traveled here from elsewhere over the weekend I want to tell you this

01:05:19   brief story. I went to Indiana to perform in a comedy festival there and when I

01:05:27   was there before I went my friend was like "are you going to Bloomington?

01:05:31   Bloomington's fun but watch out they like to drink." And I was like "that's also

01:05:41   how people introduce me. Watch out. He likes to drink. So I took it as a

01:05:51   challenge. I think I won. I might have lost. I'm not sure. I got drunk the whole

01:05:54   time. It was great. But a couple other amazing things happened to me when I was

01:05:58   in Indiana. Is anybody here from Indiana? Clap if you're from in Indiana. All right.

01:06:02   That's a decent number. Here's what I thought about Indiana before I went.

01:06:08   As I was driving from Indianapolis in the airport, I was driving on the highway.

01:06:15   It was so beautiful. As I drove, a majestic water bird like a heron or a crane, a four-foot

01:06:26   wingspan came and flew next to my car for about a minute. It just flew there next to my car. And

01:06:34   And I swear to God at one point it went it looked over at me was like

01:06:38   I'm pretty sure I got supped by a heron

01:06:43   It was awesome. It was like it was like the that moment in easy rider when somebody does something to a thing whatever doesn't matter

01:06:50   But I was riding along with this goddamn heron and it was beautiful now we have to use the explicit tag

01:06:57   I'm sorry. I'm sorry Kayden Kayden

01:06:59   Man, I know you're not gonna listen to this, but you're gonna get so much puss based on that

01:07:04   that applause

01:07:07   oh bro fucking caden can we sub in Scott for that later

01:07:12   it's kind of my thing

01:07:16   Scott's 10 he had a concussion and he's ready to fuck that's not true I'm not

01:07:28   I'm sorry. So, back to Indiana. There I was in Indiana and this majestic bird was

01:07:39   flying next to me and then at one moment it arced off and I saw it fly over a

01:07:44   large warehouse and on the side of the warehouse was a bedsheet and on the

01:07:50   bedsheet was hand-painted the word fireworks. As I left the fireworks store

01:08:00   with a bag full of way more shit than I can use in three days, I thought to

01:08:06   myself this is amazing. This is two amazing human achievements, two amazing

01:08:11   human perceptions in one day. I got to view, I got to see the majesty of nature

01:08:17   And I also got to experience the majesty of using some shit to blow other shit up.

01:08:24   Right? It's great. Like, I feel like that is core to us as people. Whether you believe in God or not, you

01:08:30   recognize that the world is a magical,

01:08:33   wonderful place, and

01:08:36   sometimes you want to make it fucking explode.

01:08:39   The rest of the weekend I spent in my hotel room

01:08:47   listening to Lionel Richie

01:08:49   Just sitting on a pile of fireworks

01:08:51   Not dancing on the ceiling hello, I listen to hello on repeat in my underwear

01:08:59   Surrounded by bottle rockets and roman candles and I thought to myself

01:09:04   Goddamnit heartland

01:09:08   There are some things you do right like I'm a California guy

01:09:10   I'm as blue state as they come but I loved being in Indiana because you know what if a dumb

01:09:16   Meaty bro wants to ride around on his motorcycle with his helmet off. That's kind of great, right?

01:09:21   Like I feel like we can learn from I can learn certainly from that perspective like certainly I believe

01:09:28   That a woman has a right to a legal and safe abortion

01:09:34   Thank you. I think if you believe in it, why don't we clap for that if you believe in it? I

01:09:42   I believe in that. I also want to clap for this next one. I also believe that that same woman

01:09:47   has a legal unsafe right to enough fireworks to freak out all the cats in her neighborhood.

01:09:54   Right? Like both of those things. That's great. And what I was going to say based on that was,

01:10:01   you know, I think the same thing sort of applies a lot of times in technology.

01:10:06   Like there's a partisanship between two opposing sides like iOS versus Android or something like that.

01:10:14   And we really gain a lot when we come together and figure stuff out that works on both sides.

01:10:20   I was gonna say that, that's boring as fuck. I just wanted to talk about being in my underwear in my hotel room.

01:10:25   Turn down for me you guys.

01:10:34   The other thing that I wanted to talk about with you guys specifically, Mark, no nothing,

01:10:43   it's cool, you got those sweet beats.

01:10:45   I'm going to call you sweet beats from now on.

01:10:49   It's good.

01:10:52   Have you guys ever heard of a place called Draper University?

01:10:57   No?

01:10:59   Has anybody here ever heard of Draper University?

01:11:03   a few people okay okay you might not like the next half an hour of what we talk about

01:11:10   oh thank you guys thank you so much

01:11:16   Ladies and gentlemen, Brent Simmons and

01:11:19   Choc!

01:11:20   woo!

01:11:21   and boos

01:11:26   and boos

01:11:27   clap for boos

01:11:32   Jesse Char. So I do a lot of stuff in San Mateo. I spent a lot of time at the public

01:11:40   library in San Mateo because they have the most relaxed sleeping policy. And I've often

01:11:49   walked by this place that is an old converted hotel. And I walked past the other day and

01:11:55   And in the window were two giant photographs, one of Steve Jobs and one of Elon Musk, looking

01:12:03   like he needs some sun, like he always does.

01:12:06   And I was like, what is this place?

01:12:09   So I did some research online to find out what Draper University is.

01:12:13   And I thought I'd share it with you.

01:12:15   Mostly because I feel like as good, we're all good people, right?

01:12:19   I feel like we should combat the douchiness in our midst and technology

01:12:25   often encourages a lot of a lot of that behavior. It's rampant out in the valley.

01:12:30   Yeah, oh yeah exactly and so that's where that's where this is. So I looked it up

01:12:36   online Draper University and I got this I got this information. Located in

01:12:43   Silicon Valley, Draper University of Heroes. It's the first sign, like it's

01:12:51   Draper University of Heroes. And then I remembered like a bunch of like young

01:12:55   people walking around town wearing this t-shirt that just says hero on it. I'm

01:13:00   like what did you did you save a cat from a burning building? You don't look

01:13:03   like it. And I realized that they're attendees of Draper University. Draper

01:13:08   University of Heroes is the brainchild of free-spirited venture capitalist Tim

01:13:12   Draper aka the risk master I think Tim Draper is a good stand-in for a Silicon

01:13:22   Valley proto douche like a like a like the last generation like you know like

01:13:28   he's got like a fun tie and he hates all taxes I I thought when you said it I

01:13:40   never heard it I thought it was maybe like a Don Draper University and I I

01:13:44   feel like anybody who would enroll at thinking along the lines that I'm

01:13:48   thinking is probably gonna be very disappointed when the classes start like

01:13:52   they probably think classes are gonna start like this that's right that's

01:13:56   right we do a shot and then we learn how to harass right you unlearn all those

01:14:01   classes you took apparently it's a very different University it is so what they

01:14:07   say on their website top of the line websites not it's terrible we are an

01:14:13   unconventional world-class residential and online school for the brightest

01:14:17   young entrepreneurs from around the world our core curriculum all right our

01:14:21   core curriculum includes some of the following topics media training

01:14:27   negotiations various topics in finance is gloss over the stuff that's actually

01:14:34   a school subject. And then they dive into other things like lean startups,

01:14:42   creativity crash course, design thinking, innovation, and some other terrible stuff.

01:14:50   And so I was like what what is it? So I looked further I watched a video there's

01:14:56   a great video online about Draper University. Instead of desks students sit

01:15:02   in colorful beanbag chairs. And the video is great because like obviously he had this idea

01:15:08   he's like oh this will be great we'll be unconventional as fuck we'll just sit in beanbag chairs and

01:15:14   bandy about great ideas for how to change the world and you see the kids in the beanbag chairs

01:15:19   and they're like sliding down. Did you have a beanbag chair when you were growing up? No I

01:15:25   wanted one but I was not allowed to have one because I was told before we ever even tried it

01:15:31   that it would break and make a ginormous mess.

01:15:34   You had good parents.

01:15:35   Yeah, that's like the beanbag chair is the great lie.

01:15:39   It's like the hungry hungry hippos of chairs.

01:15:41   Like it seems like it's gonna be the best thing in the world.

01:15:43   And then you get it and somebody swallows a marble and you're in the emergency room.

01:15:47   Every common area and hallway is covered in whiteboard paint for brainstorming.

01:15:55   And there's a shot of the class schedule at one point.

01:15:59   One of the classes is called Futurology.

01:16:02   (audience laughing)

01:16:05   It's making up words.

01:16:06   And then there's a quote from an article

01:16:12   about the university.

01:16:13   "Earlier that day, I watched Draper change the agenda line

01:16:17   "for a planned activity, a gathering of Draper U students

01:16:20   "and his daughter's college friends.

01:16:22   "He changed it from mixer with sorority to hero-a-thon."

01:16:27   the private school is not accredited and never will be draper says that's a box

01:16:43   we don't want to be put into

01:16:44   oh the actual university box

01:16:48   so here's my favorite part and then have a question for you for you guys

01:16:56   at the end of the session each student doesn't receive a BA or a BS or again an

01:17:04   actual degree every student receives a CA which stands for can you guess what

01:17:09   CA stands for? Creative Achievement. Creative Achievement that's a terrible

01:17:17   guess John it's actually a fine guess stands for change agent which sounds

01:17:26   like what Ebola turns into when it's human catchable like you we could have

01:17:31   given John six months and he never would have thought of that because it's such

01:17:34   bullshit yeah that's right that's right you just proved yourself to be bullshit

01:17:38   free. Alright so here's my favorite part in lieu of diplomas Draper U students

01:17:48   receive masks and superhero capes.

01:17:53   Printed, guy up front said no. They receive masks and capes printed with

01:18:04   their superhero nicknames gets better and are instructed to jump on each of a

01:18:11   series of three small trampolines placed in a line in front of them while

01:18:17   bouncing from trampoline to trampoline they're told to shout up up and away

01:18:25   then they assemble for a group photo what a bullshit place so why why are we

01:18:31   doing this show instead of doing a show where all of us go there and videotape it.

01:18:35   That would be great. I also thought maybe we could do a Kickstarter where we all

01:18:39   send John to...

01:18:42   It's a... so again it's called a university. It's an eight-week course. So it's an

01:18:51   eight-week course that costs $10,000 which frankly is not that crazy for... I mean

01:18:56   you get breakfast. I thought maybe we could we could because actually the

01:19:04   application deadline this is true the application deadline for the summer

01:19:07   quarter I think they call it even though that's a lie is tomorrow on the

01:19:13   application box on the application screen it's an online application

01:19:16   there's one box that just says tell us a story which I love but then I realized

01:19:25   that you have to be 18 to 26 to go there and I don't think like we could doctor

01:19:34   know the fuck out of you with some makeup but I don't think there'd be

01:19:38   enough to to make you look 26 to make you look 26 yeah but then that got me

01:19:44   thinking too look Draper you let's just work to combat that element of bullshit

01:19:53   tech speak and entrepreneurial mumble jumbo. Mumble jumbo I just said but I

01:20:01   thought maybe well here's my dream my dream is this not Draper U my dream is

01:20:10   Gruber U. Gruber University I don't know not of heroes but I don't know what that

01:20:20   would look like. I thought maybe you guys could help me out with that. I think

01:20:24   John already told you it's like Mad Men University. That's true. It's still called

01:20:28   Draper University. So there's a lot of drinking. There's no suits though. Morning

01:20:38   classes no. No morning classes. Well you'll have classes. You'll have classes

01:20:43   at 2 in the morning. Oh that doesn't count as a morning. Well that's a good

01:20:50   I don't know. I feel like I'm in a poor position to judge. I feel like it's, I feel

01:20:54   like you guys maybe would have better ideas than me. Well, is the

01:20:57   curriculum anything outside of mixology? Is that pretty much the extent of it all?

01:21:04   No, I have other interests. I mean, it'd be a wide-ranging curriculum. But they all just fund...

01:21:10   We'd have a very good baseball team. That's true. That's right. But you went to school and you did

01:21:15   like the student things. You were in that school newspaper. You did all that

01:21:19   So the Draper University, sorry, the Gruber University's gotta take you through that arc of like,

01:21:24   once he was a good student and belonged to the newspaper and was, and then you gotta transition into the Don Draper.

01:21:30   Oh yeah. It's an arc. That's genius. The Gruber Memorial Rotunda.

01:21:35   That tells the story of your life from a young shitty kid to a middle aged shitty man.

01:21:45   It is true. I'll tell you, it's funny you bring it up. I didn't know you were going to bring this up.

01:21:48   But I've been haunted my entire life by dreams.

01:21:52   And it's very common, everybody has, but dreams of school unpreparedness.

01:21:57   You know, in the dream it's exam day or there's a big homework assignment and it's like,

01:22:01   "Oh my God, I blew it off, but why would I blow it off until now?"

01:22:04   It's due now. Shit.

01:22:06   And, you know, and then it's a very unpleasant dream and I feel stressed out because when I was young,

01:22:10   I wanted to get good grades, etcetera, etcetera.

01:22:12   But I've started, like, in the last few years, it's really me in the dream now. And I don't

01:22:18   care. And I literally had a dream that I grew up, my parents' house is across the street

01:22:26   from the elementary school I went to. Literally across the street. And I had a dream that

01:22:30   my high school social studies teacher, who's a great guy, Mr. Choika, and he taught us

01:22:36   like civics and stuff and taught us cool shit to teach high schoolers. Like, hey, when cops

01:22:40   come to your door you don't have to let him in and we use that like high school parties it's like

01:22:44   no you cannot come in and nobody else knew that he was a great teacher and in my dream

01:22:49   some for some reason he's teaching in the elementary school but it's i'm in high school

01:22:56   and he's just like a kid and i'm there and it's people are noisy and i'm annoyed and

01:23:03   choika mr choika goes i could use a fucking drink and i said i could get one of my parents houses

01:23:08   across the street and he goes that'd be great and and I said what do you want

01:23:13   because well we gotta make it look like water what I swear guys it's a real

01:23:16   dream I had and this is the dream I thought this is a real thing that

01:23:19   happened never happened I stopped listening for a second and I was like

01:23:24   your teacher was the best teacher no it's like did my dreams of being in

01:23:27   school now it's just me I'm like yeah I'll get you a drink and I went across

01:23:30   it and the funny thing is and I got him like a gin and tonic and he told me to

01:23:33   in the dream he told me to put extra pepper in it I was like all right

01:23:37   you're the teacher. And the funny thing is my parents don't even have gin in the

01:23:41   house. I don't know but in my dream world they do. I think I would go visit them a

01:23:45   lot more. Can I just quickly quick aside somebody in the front somebody in front

01:23:50   have an iPhone that they would be willing to use would you be willing to

01:23:54   use would you keep track of the Gruber University core curriculum for us? Let's

01:24:00   9 to 10 at 10 a.m. is blank. 10 to 2 p.m. is blank. Study hall.

01:24:11   2 to 3 is Yankees.

01:24:24   three to 301 is Yankees suck 301 to 302 is that lady gets unmatriculated we have

01:24:36   to address grading you know evaluation of the students and in Draper Gruber

01:24:42   University you know because what you said about you know you used to care a

01:24:45   lot about grades until you got smarter and realized you know so just forgive me

01:24:51   this is a bit of a risk, but I think probably not. How many of you out there were A students?

01:24:58   Okay, how many of you out there were C students? The C students always have a way more fun

01:25:06   reaction to that. How many, I would guess that on average, and this is totally out of

01:25:13   my ass, on average C students probably do better in reality than A students. Because

01:25:18   the C students are the ones... That's what C students tell themselves anyway. That too.

01:25:24   Because the C students were the ones who figured out that you don't have to do about 80% of

01:25:28   what they assign you in school. Right? So I think part of Druber Draper University would

01:25:35   just be, you know, you don't tell anybody this for a while and then like, you know,

01:25:39   senior year or whatever, last week of it, you take everyone with a GPA of above like

01:25:44   3.8 and you guys fail. Sorry. That's brilliant. You didn't get it. That's brilliant. You've

01:25:48   wasted way too much time studying on this nonsense. Exactly. That's brilliant. You did everything we asked. Why didn't you question that?

01:25:55   You know, I remember when Bushi was the president and there were, you know, famously it was not the sharpest pencil in the box and didn't have a terrific school record.

01:26:08   there was actually news stories about that there is a correlation to achieving

01:26:13   C-level positions in major fortune 500 corporations and having

01:26:20   extraordinarily mediocre scholastic records. You'd have to be a psychopath for that though, right?

01:26:26   Right, well there's even a phrase for it, "the gentleman's C" that you know that

01:26:30   that as long as you put up a modicum of effort and you know you're not going to

01:26:34   never show up for class you're going to show up and you're going to take the

01:26:37   exam and fail terribly, they'll at least give you a C. And that is the people who

01:26:41   take advantage of that rule and they're like, "Well, wait a second. If the worst I can do

01:26:45   is a C, I can do nothing." Yeah, I never did homework. I literally did zero

01:26:52   homework for my entire academic career and I always almost failed some classes

01:26:57   here and there and got A's in the easy classes here and there and I came out

01:27:01   okay. I almost even graduated. Alright, so I think we can probably guess

01:27:06   that that description does not apply to John. You would guess wrong. I also did not like

01:27:12   doing homework at all. I just did enough of it to get A's. But. Oh, what an asshole.

01:27:22   I did not want to do homework at all. I thought it was in a front that I should ever have

01:27:26   it and now I get it back because now my son comes home and thinks it is like the worst

01:27:29   injustice in the world that when he comes home from school there's still more school

01:27:32   to do. Tell it the same way. He's right.

01:27:35   But nobody would ever accuse you of being a type A personality. Type A is I've got to

01:27:39   be valedictorian. And if I'm salutatorian, I'm going to find a loophole where the valedictorian

01:27:47   took a weird class in seventh grade and their 4.0 should be a 3.999. That's not you.

01:27:52   This is what I said in my report card every year for my whole life. Not working up to

01:27:56   potential. I've got them all saved. Every teacher would write it.

01:28:03   But I don't think anybody is surprised by this. I think this comes very clear. And your

01:28:07   baseline of the minimum work to get an A. And you probably did more work to figure out

01:28:12   what the minimum work is to get an A than the actual work that you did. Like you probably

01:28:17   knew exactly. It wasn't work, it was more like subterfuge. How many notes home can I

01:28:21   hide from my parents before they find one? This is probably a CPAN module somewhere to

01:28:26   Did you know your grades? Like were you ever surprised by your report card? Did you know your grades?

01:28:31   No, I knew my grades. I mean I was with the nerds like valedictorian was my best friend.

01:28:35   Oh were you with the nerds? You were with the nerds?

01:28:38   Look look where you look where you are, sir

01:28:41   That's true, I'm the one who's gonna get beat up for sure

01:28:49   Nah, you can pass

01:28:53   But Casey Casey to me you're a mystery man. Where did you fall on this like what kind of a high school student?

01:28:58   Yeah, so so when I was in grade school when I was in middle school total like I will do every bit of homework

01:29:04   I'll ask for extra credit total freaking nerd and then around and then around high school

01:29:09   I realized I just don't fucking care and so I was a terror

01:29:14   I was an okay high school student

01:29:16   I was a terrible college student Marco and I I think could probably get into a pretty serious pissing match over who was the worst

01:29:22   student in college. But yeah, so then I just realized, well, it's enough to get by and

01:29:28   all that matters in the end is that I have a degree, not a what was change agent certificate

01:29:35   of authenticity, whatever it was, and that's all I needed.

01:29:39   But you Scott, were you a good good college student? Well, much like Casey, at a certain

01:29:44   point, I realized that that that stuff wasn't important. And I stopped being as as, as rule

01:29:50   following as I was. For me that moment came when I was 37. I was gonna say it's

01:29:58   when you left Apple right? Yeah it was like this is stupid. I mean it's well

01:30:03   it's stupid it's stupid but you know for me it was it was the wrong thing and I

01:30:07   finally like was like okay I can I can jump out of this this path that I

01:30:12   thought I had to be on. I was stressed throughout my college career because I

01:30:18   I went to Drexel on... Drexel has a slogan much like Draper U.

01:30:25   Drexel has an official slogan it's "We're right next to Penn." That is their slogan.

01:30:31   I forget if I've ever told this story. I don't know if this is gonna be too long.

01:30:36   But the long story short is I was an okay student, never really cared about grades,

01:30:41   but I was an exceptionally talented test taker. I have truly gifted at taking things like the SAT

01:30:47   because it was like being in the matrix where I could see why they were asking

01:30:51   the question. I couldn't even answer it but I can see clearly they mean see I

01:30:54   don't understand what these words mean but I I could understand the SAT at a

01:30:59   meta level and scored very very high. This is in the early 90s before they

01:31:03   rescored them and let people get high grades but in like 10th grade I took the

01:31:09   SAT as a test like this isn't for real we're gonna take it for real next year

01:31:14   And when you take the SAT, at least you did back then, you'd say, "What schools do you

01:31:19   want it sent to for free?" And I hadn't done any research on where to go. And I picked

01:31:23   basketball schools that I liked. I picked North Carolina and Villanova and Syracuse.

01:31:28   >> [audience member] Syracuse!

01:31:29   >> Yeah, I picked all the Big East teams and everybody but Duke and ACC. And I had no intention

01:31:36   of going to any of these schools. And there were still open slots. And my friend who was

01:31:39   with me, his sister went to Drexel. She goes, "Put Drexel down. They're cool." I was like,

01:31:43   "All right, Drexel." And I got a really high score. I got like a 1420. And then, I go to

01:31:48   the next year and I got a 1460. And by that time, though, I knew where I wanted to go.

01:31:53   And I had this list of schools and it was a lot more practical. And I said, "I don't

01:31:56   know." And Drexel wasn't even on the list. And blah, blah, blah. And I thought I was

01:31:59   going to Penn State. And one day, the phone rings and somebody is like, "I'm somebody

01:32:02   from Drexel University. I want to speak to John Gruber." And I said, "Yeah, that's me."

01:32:06   And they said, "Yes, we'd like you to come to Drexel on a full tuition scholarship."

01:32:10   And I said, "Well, what do I have to do?" And I'd already been filling out all these

01:32:15   essays for scholarships to other schools. >> He was like, "Can you play badminton?"

01:32:19   [laughter]

01:32:21   >> The answer was, "Well, you need to apply." And I was like, "All right."

01:32:25   [laughter]

01:32:26   >> Seems like work already.

01:32:28   >> I was like, "Well, then what?" And they're like, "No, that's it." And we have a policy

01:32:38   where if you scored a 1400 or higher on your SAT, you can come to Drexel for free.

01:32:43   >> You know it's pronounced "sat."

01:32:44   [ Laughter ]

01:32:45   >> It's a more efficient way to say it.

01:32:49   >> Well, it's a Tim Cook. It's Tim Cook. And I was like, "What that -- you mean that's

01:32:53   all I have to do is apply?" And then I go for free. And they're like, "Yeah." And I

01:32:57   was like, "Well, what is tuition?" Because I hadn't done any research. And they're like

01:32:59   -- and this is 1991, so it's -- I mean, it's probably like $50,000 a year now. They're

01:33:03   like, "It's $16,000 a year." And I was like, "And I don't have to pay any of it." And they're

01:33:07   And I was like, "Oh." And I got off the phone and my dad was like, "Who's that?"

01:33:11   And I was like, "I don't know, it's Drexel. I guess I'm going there?"

01:33:14   [laughter]

01:33:16   Because it was like I had, I don't know, it was complicated, you know, money for college, it's crazy how much college costs.

01:33:22   And we had this complicated thing where we were taking out loans and all this stuff.

01:33:26   And the only catch was I had to keep a 3.0 grade point average for my whole academic career.

01:33:32   No deal.

01:33:33   - It was a deal.

01:33:34   - It was very, very stressful my first two years,

01:33:37   but then I knew other people who had this scholarship.

01:33:40   And the back story of it is that Drexel is really,

01:33:43   well, maybe they're better now,

01:33:44   but when I was there, they were really not a good school,

01:33:46   and they had really low average SAT scores.

01:33:49   They were like a safety school.

01:33:51   And so their idea for raising the average SAT score was,

01:33:54   we'll let people who score 1,300 or higher

01:33:57   go for half tuition and 1,400, you go for free.

01:34:00   And so I ended up like, I had like six roommates

01:34:04   in a big apartment in one apartment,

01:34:05   and like half of us were there for free

01:34:07   because we'd scored 1400 and couldn't go to a good school

01:34:11   'cause we couldn't pay for it.

01:34:12   But then I figured out halfway through my college career

01:34:15   that there was a grace period on the GPA thing.

01:34:19   Like they don't just like, you fall to a 2.9

01:34:22   and they're like, oh, sorry, you have to go.

01:34:25   You get like, I don't know what you call it.

01:34:27   Just to note the daily curriculum,

01:34:31   three to four grace period.

01:34:33   (audience laughing)

01:34:36   - But I liked it, I had a good time there.

01:34:39   I think I finished with like a 3.00002 GPA.

01:34:44   It was incredibly close, but I never did dip down

01:34:47   and I never got the letter.

01:34:49   - I think about this a lot, especially having moved

01:34:51   from the East Coast to the West Coast.

01:34:53   So when I was on the East Coast, also it was the early 90s,

01:34:56   It's like you go to college. It's just what you do, obviously.

01:35:01   But then coming to the West Coast and seeing all these people achieve amazing things without

01:35:07   ever having gone to college and also watching college tuitions go from super expensive to

01:35:13   what the Kayden has been.

01:35:16   >> You used to be like you'd buy a car for college tuition. Now you could buy like a

01:35:18   really, really nice car.

01:35:20   >> Yeah. You can buy a nice car for like the whole--you can buy like four cars for the

01:35:25   four years.

01:35:26   so

01:35:28   not that expensive

01:35:29   to buy a tesla you could be you could buy four teslas for the cost that goes

01:35:33   to or for the you know how much college cost kcr casey

01:35:36   margot you'll find out

01:35:38   so you guys let's have pulled the on how many people here went to college

01:35:42   well well i think that i can see we can see shit

01:35:47   how many people

01:35:48   graduated from college

01:35:52   and how many people never went to college

01:35:55   I love you guys.

01:35:56   Those are my people.

01:35:57   Small number.

01:35:58   They're the people who got smart at an earlier age, right?

01:36:02   So do you believe that college is necessary?

01:36:04   So for folks like this, for, you know, going in the world of like being a developer or

01:36:09   something like that, do you need to go to college still?

01:36:11   I don't know.

01:36:13   I think you need to go to college if you think you do so that you can learn that you don't.

01:36:21   really profound advice but I totally can't believe it with those beats around

01:36:26   your neck this this lends me credibility among the youths right isn't that why

01:36:32   Apple bought them the youth's youth's did you say you I don't know you guys

01:36:44   have anything else what do we want to talk about school I mean we should wrap

01:36:47   up soon but school is great love school school is good for the life stuff like

01:36:54   it's good to learn how to drink in college it's good to learn how to live

01:36:59   by yourself for the first time that's nice so there's an adulthood element to

01:37:03   it is it worth $60,000 a year no but while we're you know open kimono life

01:37:10   story porn and all on the table I went to college I did not drink I started to

01:37:16   drink slightly while I was in college but didn't really start drinking until

01:37:22   like my mid-20s. Yeah I actually had a fairly similar experience I vividly

01:37:27   remember it was one day over the summer before I'm about to go to college I went

01:37:31   to college at Virginia Tech and and my dad sits me down my dad. No just just to

01:37:35   note nobody applauded for Virginia Tech. Thank you I know it's alright I'm the

01:37:40   other guy it's fine no but uh so my dad sits me down my dad sits me down and he

01:37:43   put something in front of me, I can't remember what it was, and he says, "You need to drink

01:37:47   this." "Okay, you're going to drink more than one. What is it?" And I took a little sip

01:37:54   and God knows what it was and I probably choked it up.

01:37:57   How old were you?

01:37:58   I was 18. Because I'd never really had booze before. And my dad basically sat me down and

01:38:02   said, "You're getting fucking hammered tonight. So this way when you go to school, you know

01:38:06   what this feels like and you will be okay."

01:38:10   Casey drank 11 melon-teenies that night.

01:38:14   It was easy on the teeny, too.

01:38:17   Dad, why are you giving me melon-teenies?

01:38:19   Shut up. Drink it.

01:38:20   Did he also make you smoke a whole pack of cigarettes?

01:38:22   No, no, no. None of that. None of that. None of that.

01:38:25   But no, that was my first real drinking experience.

01:38:27   And then I drank a little bit in college.

01:38:29   And now supposedly drunk me is somewhere in the audience.

01:38:33   Or so I'm told.

01:38:34   Let's hear it for Drunk Casey out in the audience.

01:38:36   The mystery tweeter.

01:38:38   There used to be a drunk Gruber account, but then the guy stopped updating it.

01:38:44   Yeah, cirrhosis.

01:38:45   It took him.

01:38:49   Pour one out for drunk Gruber.

01:38:56   What he used to do is try to guess which tweets of mine I tweeted while intoxicated.

01:39:05   And it was funny because he was pretty good, but not that good.

01:39:08   It was like, you know what, it is pretty late, but I'm actually stone cold sober tonight,

01:39:11   and I actually just tweeted that.

01:39:15   Now, you never really were a drinker, is that right?

01:39:19   No, you got it out of your system when you were in high school.

01:39:20   Yeah, I got it out of my drink in high school, then it stopped.

01:39:24   It pains me so deeply.

01:39:25   Is that true?

01:39:26   No, is that true?

01:39:27   No, that's totally true.

01:39:28   Like, in high school, we'd have the guy with the receding hairline get beer at the gas

01:39:30   station, and we would all drink.

01:39:32   Wait, so you knew Marco in high school?

01:39:33   Zing. There is a function, there is an evolutionary niche for those people.

01:39:41   Bold move for the guy holding Marco's microphone. Pretty good one though. I wasn't

01:39:50   going to have Casey come out, I was just gonna, you know. I'm glad I did. Let's hear it for Casey with the Zing.

01:39:57   I'm glad I've earned my keep after all. No, I did not drink a lick in high school.

01:40:02   I had friends who did, and they'd have parties.

01:40:05   And I was the official, just in case the cops show up, this is the guy who paid attention

01:40:10   to Mr. Troika's class and knows how to deal with it guy.

01:40:13   Yeah, write down Mr. Troika dream.

01:40:17   Four to five.

01:40:18   Yeah, that's a class.

01:40:19   That's a, that's a, yeah, yeah.

01:40:20   It's a semester long class.

01:40:21   It's you talking about your dreams that you had about your high school teacher.

01:40:26   So can we go back, can we explore what Drunk John was like?

01:40:29   Like I, I never got drunk.

01:40:32   I shouldn't be surprised by this but that's terrible.

01:40:36   I just I envisioned like this really chipper happy like touchy-feely John

01:40:40   like hey man give me a hug. It's all in your head. Yeah I know that's my dream

01:40:46   that's my dream is meeting drunk John. What was the high school drinking

01:40:50   situation like where you went? Was it like a go out in the woods type of

01:40:53   situation? People's houses with parents weren't home totally. Right. What is wrong

01:40:58   with those parents right I mean now that we're adults and we're the parents the

01:41:05   idea that I would leave maybe see like if you were my son then I think I had

01:41:11   them in my house too you know when you've got the kid who's gonna have a

01:41:14   party when the parents go I bet that's exactly what my parents thought but they

01:41:17   were wrong because it's not like I made the party it's like whose parents are at

01:41:20   home okay everyone go there I did not think that we would relate on anything

01:41:26   my mother was a she she she she met a man and he lived in Minnesota and so she

01:41:34   would travel to visit him and she'd be like well the house is yours take care

01:41:39   of it and I was very similar like she just trusted me what a bad idea it was

01:41:46   it was part it was a party every time she left it was crazy and it was fun I'm

01:41:51   I'm pretty sure because of those parties I was voted most well-rounded in high school.

01:41:58   Like that's the only thing that I did.

01:41:59   I didn't do sports, so I think that was what it was for me.

01:42:03   So there's actually, so I was left alone all summer for most high school summers.

01:42:09   That's just because they forgot about you.

01:42:11   Yeah.

01:42:12   And I am actually such a nerd that I didn't do anything bad.

01:42:16   I'm actually more of a nerd than John Syracuse on something.

01:42:19   You had nicer friends.

01:42:20   People were bad influence on me. I wouldn't have done it on my own. I was roped into it.

01:42:24   Oh sure, yeah. It's their fault.

01:42:26   You were left at home for the whole summer?

01:42:28   Yeah. My mom is a teacher. She would go upstate New York for the summer and I would go when I was younger.

01:42:34   But then once I got older, I didn't want to go up there. I wanted to stay with my friends in high school.

01:42:38   So yeah, I was like 17, 18, alone all summer. It was awesome.

01:42:42   And you just stayed home drinking soda and playing video games?

01:42:45   Pretty much. Yeah.

01:42:48   I was doing all this crap, programming, and all that.

01:42:50   Yeah, that's how I got started programming.

01:42:52   It was instead of having a social life, just like probably many of you out there, I was

01:42:59   doing that.

01:43:01   So at that point, you were in college, and then you went to the actual college to not

01:43:05   really do anything productive.

01:43:07   So that was your college.

01:43:08   Well, yeah, in college, I just found new ways to be a nerd.

01:43:13   Just more, more, you know, I drank some in college.

01:43:17   You know, I have a very vivid memory from my freshman year of college of -- I'm in the

01:43:24   dorm and my roommate was a guy I went to high school with. He was actually the guy who told

01:43:29   me back in 10th grade to put Drexel on the thing. And we, you know, went and I didn't

01:43:33   want to take a random roommate. That seemed like a sucker move. So I was like, "Oh, why

01:43:37   we should be roommates?" You know, we weren't best friends. But I knew I could live with

01:43:40   the guy. He pledged a fraternity. A lot of the guys on my floor pledged fraternities

01:43:44   and they went to these fraternity parties.

01:43:46   And I remember very specifically what the game was.

01:43:49   I stayed to play Leisure Suit Larry.

01:43:52   8-Bit Boobs.

01:43:56   Right, and I felt like I was being pretty badass.

01:43:59   There were boobs in the game.

01:44:02   4 to 5, 5 to 6, where are we? 5 to 6?

01:44:05   Leisure Suit Larry.

01:44:07   8-Bit Boobs.

01:44:11   We're getting late on time. I don't know. Do you guys have anything else? Any more stuff?

01:44:20   All right. Why don't we wrap it up? I would like to do some thanks. I have a lot of people,

01:44:26   well, no, a couple people that I would like to thank. I would like to thank Megan here

01:44:31   at Mezzanine and the whole staff at Mezzanine. What a great place this is. We did this show

01:44:38   show here last year. I hope we do it again next year. But what a great place. It's just

01:44:43   a great facility, but the staff and the bar, everything's great. So thanks to Megan and

01:44:48   everybody here at Mezzanine. Jesse Char, she helped produce the show. She's here in San

01:44:53   Francisco. She runs a place, she runs an app design development shop, Pacific Helm, PacificHelm.com.

01:45:04   They do great work. They do such good work, it's probably hard to get in on them. But

01:45:09   if you need to check out -- need somebody to help you design or develop an app, check

01:45:13   out Pacific Helm. Great stuff. I want to give a special thank you to someone

01:45:18   who I should have thanked a couple episodes ago, but Caleb Sexton. Caleb Sexton is here.

01:45:24   He's helping with the audio, make sure everything sounds good. But he's at Mule Radio. And I

01:45:32   should have thanked him a couple episodes when I did the show with Mike Monteiro on

01:45:35   the last show that I did while the show was on Mule. But Caleb has been helping me with

01:45:41   the talk show ever since I've taken it solo and everything good about the audio quality

01:45:47   and the editing and finding funny little things to stick into the audio for two years. 99.97%

01:45:55   of that is from Caleb Sexton. And I should have thanked him two weeks ago, but let me

01:46:00   thank him tonight when he's here. Let's give it up for Caleb Sexton, my friend. I want

01:46:08   to thank our sponsors, Microsoft for sponsoring this big event. Microsoft, check out Azure

01:46:13   Mobile Services. If you haven't looked at them, they're great. Market Circle with their

01:46:19   great apps, Daylight and Billings Pro. And probably the biggest applause here, but our

01:46:26   good friends at uh...

01:46:30   who sponsored the bar? I forget.

01:46:32   The email company. The cool guys who make it easy to do an email to a lot of

01:46:37   people. I don't get it.

01:46:38   Oh yeah, MailChimp.

01:46:40   No, but let's hear it for MailChimp.

01:46:47   Oh, also,

01:46:51   shooting video tonight. I don't know when it's going to come out. We're going to hopefully release

01:46:54   this at some point but uh...

01:46:56   couple of guys here from they're putting together a documentary called app the

01:47:02   human story and it's a documentary about the rise of apps as like a thing that we

01:47:08   care about and like even probably just like a word like the fact that everybody

01:47:11   like in the developed world knows what an app is now they have a website app

01:47:16   documentary.com they're gonna do a Kickstarter soon it's not open yet but

01:47:21   it's a really cool idea for a documentary I think it's really sort of

01:47:24   story of the decade in tech. They're here shooting video so we have an archive of the

01:47:31   show. So let's hear it for them. Stay tuned to Daring Fireball. I'll tweet when they have

01:47:35   their Kickstarter. And then last but not least, you four gentlemen, Marco Arment, Casey List,

01:47:43   John Siracusa, and Scott Simpson. Thank you. And last but not least, thanks to all of you

01:47:52   for coming blows my mind that so many people come to see us be up here and be

01:47:57   dummies clapper John's cool purple shirt he's branching out give it to him what a

01:48:04   delightful man John Gruber clapper John he's the best doctor's man right

01:48:11   provost I think that's the end of the show we'll call that we'll say the show

01:48:20   over. We're in the post-grip land. I think we're technically supposed to be out of

01:48:23   here by 9. It's 10 of... you know, you guys want to have another... I don't know if they

01:48:27   close the bar. I don't know, but we... you don't have to rush out. Let's calm and

01:48:33   orderly. If you want to chill, if you want to chug another drink, have another drink.

01:48:37   It's all on MailChimp, but thank you for coming, but we got to get out of here 10,

01:48:43   15 minutes. Thanks.

01:48:46   (upbeat music)

01:48:49   ♪ Yeah, it's like she said ♪

01:48:52   ♪ Tell me more how it's gonna be ♪

01:48:56   you