The Talk Show

332: ‘The Post-Doom Era’, With Joanna Stern


00:00:00   You have had, to me, an extraordinary 2021 working-wise, culminating, like what, two

00:00:07   or three days ago with a very, very fun segment on Jimmy Fallon's Tonight Show.

00:00:11   It's true. I told you. I told you a text message. It's much harder to book being on your podcast

00:00:18   than it is to be booked on The Tonight Show. I'll actually tell you, they rescheduled on me once, I

00:00:27   think. Yes, we were booked for the day before. And then I got pushed, which I can now see in

00:00:34   hindsight, I was pushed for Matthew McConaughey and Haim, you know, the band Haim. They were on

00:00:40   the night before. And then, so I was supposed to be on the 14th. They moved me. I said, totally

00:00:45   understand. Then when I actually saw what aired that night, I was like, totally understand. I

00:00:49   mean, obviously it was going to be totally fine no matter what. But I think I was rescheduled for

00:00:53   this show two or three times.

00:00:56   Well, it's been a busy week or a busy month. I don't know.

00:00:59   But I don't know who I was pushed for on this show, but I am sure to like those other celebrities, it

00:01:05   was worth it.

00:01:06   I thought that segment was great. It's a classic bit. You get a tech person out and you say,

00:01:12   "Here's some tech products for the holiday season. You got a funny host who's going to demo them

00:01:18   with your assistants. You got a couple of great jokes in," I thought.

00:01:22   It's actually so much easier to be on something like this versus like hosting something, right?

00:01:27   Because you don't have to be funny. The host is the funny one. Like Jimmy Fallon is the funny one.

00:01:33   There's nothing I can say or do that's like, going to be funnier. So it just kind of tried to be

00:01:37   myself.

00:01:38   Right. Like no matter what happens, he can make it funny. Like the robot follow you around thing

00:01:43   could have completely failed, and he could have made it funny. In fact, often that is what makes

00:01:48   it funny.

00:01:49   Yeah, in rehearsal it failed every time. So I was actually visibly very excited during the segment,

00:01:55   which might have been a little bit hard if everything had like gone really well. In the

00:01:59   rehearsals, I would have had to kind of like fake it, but that was genuine happiness that it was

00:02:04   working live.

00:02:05   There was also you Instagrammed before you were in the green room, and Jimmy Fallon popped in to

00:02:13   say, "Hey, this is gonna be great. We're gonna have a great fun," but sort of gave you a weird look.

00:02:17   And I was like, "That's why, you know, you it's nice that he pops in so that you're not just meeting

00:02:22   him for the first time on stage, you know, cool your nerves, you know, get get on the same page,

00:02:27   get the vibe going. But why do you give her a look?" And then you turn to the mirror after he

00:02:31   closed the door, and I knew what happened. You had those damn Ray-Ban.

00:02:34   The Ray-Ban stories.

00:02:37   Yes.

00:02:37   In partnership with Facebook/meta. Yeah, yeah, no, I realized in hindsight, I probably should have

00:02:46   like tagged it that it was recorded with that, but most people picked up on it with the mirror

00:02:50   situation.

00:02:50   Yeah. Well, but then it came out on the show as a surprise. Was that a legit surprise to him on the

00:02:57   show that that you had taken footage of him when he popped in? He seemed genuinely surprised.

00:03:01   He was genuinely surprised. We did tell him like before we aired, right, like that that this is what

00:03:08   was gonna happen. But when he walked in, it was pretty, pretty much a surprise. I know that he

00:03:13   asked me, I don't know if it actually ended up airing, but it's like, is that legal? Yeah, that

00:03:18   was that was in the final.

00:03:19   Yeah, yeah, that was that was it.

00:03:21   Um, because I actually what was cut was a little bit of a longer answer about consent and what

00:03:27   Facebook or meta says about, oh, there's the light. And there's the gesture for lifting up your hand

00:03:32   to your temple that should signal to people that you're recording, which I don't really think is

00:03:36   much of a signal to people. But all of that kind of got cut. But yeah, it was it was fun. It was

00:03:42   definitely I mean, I had a ton of fun. He is so nice and genuinely interested in tech, which is

00:03:49   awesome.

00:03:50   Yeah, they definitely seemed like it.

00:03:52   Yeah, I mean, the true story was like, he said it in the beginning of this segment, which was, you

00:03:57   know, nice TF to me, but he said he had reached out, he saw my iOS 15 video in September, one night

00:04:03   just got this random message from him on on Twitter. And he had a question about the background

00:04:09   sounds, you know, the background sounds, features and accessibility feature and iOS 15. And he was

00:04:15   like, I I followed your instructions. It's not working. Where do I find this? And it's I mean,

00:04:20   common question. It's kind of buried in the control center when you enable it. And so I just

00:04:24   walked him through it. And he was like, thank you. And he was like, that'll be my last tech question.

00:04:27   I'm like, No, it won't be and next thing I know, his Booker was reaching out. So it was awesome.

00:04:33   The other thing I thought, and he he mentioned it when he did, I got it unless I'm forgetting, the

00:04:40   three products you demoed were the Ray-Ban stories, then the robot, which we will get to last,

00:04:48   even though that was second, and then the latest version Oculus Rift, and he played a played a

00:04:52   game. When he put the Oculus on, you know, he mentioned that he has a big head, you know, like,

00:04:57   like a large head, which is actually, you know, I think you know, this is actually like,

00:05:03   like a weird thing, but it's very true of people who are successful, like, actors and TV

00:05:08   personalities. And then you meet them in real life. And you're like, boy, that guy has big head,

00:05:13   like Humphrey Bogart apparently had a head the size of a basketball. Just interesting, but I

00:05:19   thought, you know what, those Ray-Ban glasses looked better on him than they've looked in a

00:05:26   lot of the reviews that I've seen, you know, because they they are slightly I think they're

00:05:30   slightly larger than typical Ray-Ban Wayfarers. Well, you're saying is he looked better in them

00:05:35   than I did, which is fine. It's true. They're big on my face. Well, but they I think that,

00:05:40   you know, but you know, like, your hair looked great. And that helps, you know,

00:05:44   but I do think that there are people they are like the side of them are bigger. And

00:05:50   they're one side. I think they're one size fits all. Yeah, I think they are. Yeah. I'm looking up

00:05:58   because they sent them to me and I never asked for a size. Yeah, they are.

00:06:05   Well, I mean, that'll obviously change, right? Everything gets smaller over time, right? I mean,

00:06:10   we can go back to the 1987 Wall Street where the cell phones were the size of a brick, you know,

00:06:18   but it was super cool that the guy had a cell phone in his car. I mean, yeah. And also, I will say,

00:06:23   like, I, as this was the premise of my review back in September, I wore those things for a week and

00:06:28   a half. And nobody knew that they were weird sunglasses with a camera in it. Nobody. Unless

00:06:34   I told them. And unless I was like, specifically recording them and up and close to them. No one

00:06:40   had any idea that those were had cameras in it or were any sort of smart glasses. Right. Because

00:06:45   they look, they definitely look, you know, I'm not, they look much, much closer to standard Wayfarers

00:06:51   than like Google Glass, you know, which obviously looked like somebody was wearing a,

00:06:56   what, what the hell is that? Right. Or like the Snapchat spectacles, even the ones now,

00:07:02   like they designed them and actually for that Ray Ban review, I spoke to Snapchat about that or Snap,

00:07:08   and they were like, no, we designed these so people would know, like, these are weird,

00:07:12   like, what is going on with them? Like, you kind of look like a little like, bug head with the

00:07:16   little, like circular, it's like they have circular rings around the cameras. I, you know, we,

00:07:23   it's funny going back as Google Glass, if I recall correctly, was around 2013, 2012 or so when it was

00:07:32   a thing. And, you know, the reactions were all over the place. The phrase glass holes, it's,

00:07:39   I mean, exploded in, it was way, the term glass holes was way more popular than Google Glass ever,

00:07:45   ever was as a product. But there were defenders of the weird look who, you know, at Google or people

00:07:55   who just liked them who were saying, well, that's, they did this on purpose, you know, they're not,

00:07:59   they don't look that bad and they're lightweight. And we kind of wanted people who at least have any

00:08:06   awareness of Google Glass to know when they're conversing with somebody who's wearing them

00:08:11   because they had a camera and a microphone, I think too, right?

00:08:14   Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's a, I, and that did have one camera, but I think with this,

00:08:22   the creep part of it is that they do look so similar and their main, they do look so similar

00:08:31   to the originals and like what are typical Ray-Bans and like the main thing that these do

00:08:37   is have, is they have cameras, right? Like that's the main thing about them. And I actually keep

00:08:41   wondering like, why didn't they just do the speaker and the microphone? And because the cameras are

00:08:49   like, eh, like, I don't know. I'm just like, it's, whereas, you know, Bose has these, these glasses

00:08:54   with just the, they're basically like AirPods in the glasses, right? And they're, people like them,

00:08:58   they really like them. They like them for running. They like them for like walking the dog. And,

00:09:01   I just wonder, do they just do that for this? And then, and even when you talk to the executives at

00:09:06   Facebook or Ray-Bans, people say, oh, the best, one of the best uses of this is listening to music

00:09:10   and doing your phone calls. And okay, so maybe just like didn't, you didn't have the cameras,

00:09:16   like these wouldn't be as creepy at people. It is, it does make me think though, like the curmudgeon

00:09:21   in me wants to still be aghast at ubiquitous cameras recording everything. But the realist

00:09:34   in me realizes that this is the way the world has gone, you know, like they're, you know,

00:09:39   and they're on homes, they're on, and you know, and it's not like we as tech critics should,

00:09:45   should just ignore it. And when something happens, like the Amazon doorbell thing where they worked

00:09:52   out deals with the local police in places to like share footage with them and have like a program

00:09:58   where the police encourage people in the neighborhood to get it, not necessarily shady.

00:10:03   I think it, in theory, might've been well-intentioned from a certain perspective,

00:10:07   but from another perspective, it's like a civil liberties nightmare, right? But people have,

00:10:13   you're allowed to put your own security camera on your building, and now they're everywhere. We had,

00:10:19   we had a, like a, it was just like the weirdest story a couple months ago, but across the street

00:10:27   from our house, a young woman just got sucker punched at like 9 30. You know, she's walking

00:10:34   one way on the sidewalk. Another guy who's sort of like a known neighborhood wild person,

00:10:41   just sort of flails around, but has never really attacked people.

00:10:43   I thought you were going to say like a watch person.

00:10:45   No, no, he's like a weird shifty guy. Nobody quite knows what his deal is, you know,

00:10:52   probably, you know, maybe drug addict. I don't know, but you know, but he does it.

00:10:56   You're not worried about him listening to this podcast, it seems.

00:10:58   No, definitely not. But if you look at like Philly's Reddit, which is to me a much better

00:11:05   version of Nextdoor, people know who this guy is, and he does a thing where he like

00:11:09   flails around with his arms out, almost like a dance move. But in this case, he was just walking

00:11:14   past this young woman and just punched her as they passed on the sidewalk. And we, one of our

00:11:22   neighboring buildings had it on a security camera, and I was like, oh yeah, good luck catching this

00:11:28   guy. And it's like, no, because the security cameras, it's like, you know, I don't know if

00:11:33   it's 4K, but it doesn't look like the grainy 480p security footage. And it was at nighttime, so

00:11:40   I thought when I heard they have it on camera, it's like, ah, nobody's going to see anything,

00:11:44   it's going to be all muddy. And it was like, no, it was like clear as a bell.

00:11:47   Yeah, night vision on that stuff has gotten so good.

00:11:50   Yeah, like, so the people in the neighborhood, like it became a news story,

00:11:56   you know, the victim, she stayed anonymous, you know, I probably would too. But people who knew

00:12:01   who the guy was were able to tell the police and they got the guy. And it's like those cameras are

00:12:06   everywhere.

00:12:06   No, it had a similar thing here too. I mean, we are, somebody set fire to something in the park,

00:12:11   we live across the street from a park, and set fire and the police were going around asking,

00:12:16   do you have, you know, does your security camera, does your ring pick up what, like this section of

00:12:21   the park? And I said, no, unfortunately mine doesn't, and I looked. But I don't know, they

00:12:25   might have ended up getting from somebody other angle in the park. So bottom, yeah, I mean,

00:12:31   bottom line, I agree with you that this is the way things are going. And to many in many senses,

00:12:36   it is a nightmare. In other senses, there are these positive things, just like any technology,

00:12:42   there's the good and the bad. I think on these glasses, I heard from a lot of people after I

00:12:46   published that review, like, oh, well, like, you could just hold up your phone or people can

00:12:50   secretly record on their phone with on your phone without knowing people have perfected sort of the

00:12:55   like sly, like, hold up your iPhone, and it looks like you're on a call or something, but you're

00:12:59   recording. And that's true, too, right? I mean, and frankly, that's way better quality than these

00:13:05   these. I mean, this is not very good video quality when you're recording, and it's only 30 seconds,

00:13:09   too. So, right. Well, that's like the it's like that there was that whole rash in Japan of upskirt

00:13:16   videos. And this is this is because pretty far back because, you know, I forget when the law

00:13:22   gives past, but creepy guys were on the subway, crowded subways, and they mastered the art of

00:13:29   taking upskirt videos of women. And so Japan, you know, this, they have a law, I believe it's still

00:13:36   on the books, because it's one of those laws that I feel like is never going to come off the books,

00:13:39   because who's what politician is going to stand up and say, I would like to make upskirt videos

00:13:44   easy again. But all cell phones have to make an audible camera click sound, even if they're muted.

00:13:50   So I believe if you use the iOS, you know, or Android, you know, Japanese versions of the OS's,

00:13:55   even if you mute your phone, when you take a picture, it makes a click. Does that work?

00:14:01   I did not know that.

00:14:01   Yeah, I don't know. I mean, is it loud enough to is a click loud enough on a subway?

00:14:05   But, you know,

00:14:08   well, I mean, like, again, with these glasses, there's a there is an indicator light. As I said,

00:14:14   in my review, the indicator light is the size of a poppy seed legitimately compared to a

00:14:19   New York City bagel poppy seed. And people don't see it at, as I said in the piece, like,

00:14:25   at a social distance, people don't really see it. But if you're closer than that, people do see it.

00:14:30   Yeah. And I think outdoors, it's harder to see because, you know,

00:14:34   obviously, you're fighting against the sun to make the light bright enough.

00:14:37   Yeah, exactly what I had done in my testing. People said, I don't see it because of the sun

00:14:42   in their sunglasses. So you wear them inside.

00:14:45   In your review, as I recall, it was you you would take it, you'd record it in a conversation with

00:14:52   your mother. And then told her, Oh, by the way, I'm recording this.

00:14:55   Yep. Yep. Yep, I did that. I did that. I recorded actually a ton of people that week. I was kind of

00:15:01   my premise was like, I'm gonna wear these and see if people know if I'm recording them. I told

00:15:05   everyone I had their consent, like after I started recording as I told them very quickly after like,

00:15:09   and do you know that I'm recording you right now? And everyone's like, what? And they would freak

00:15:14   out about it. Yeah, a couple of people did not want me to post those videos, which I didn't.

00:15:20   But your mother was played along.

00:15:23   My mother plays along with everything. My last piece too, I decided I was gonna,

00:15:28   I wanted to learn about NFTs. I was trying to understand this whole world. And so I

00:15:32   made an NFT out of my son's artwork, and then I gave it to her in a crypto wallet. And she's still

00:15:38   is the piece came out. Now she understands, but she was like, why did I have to be involved in

00:15:42   this piece? Because you needed somebody to go along with it. Yeah, exactly.

00:15:48   So the third gadget that you should that you demoed for Jimmy Fallon is called the Jita

00:15:53   that G I T A. Like cheetah. That's how I remembered it on air. Yeah, but they see that. But if you

00:16:01   wanted to Google it, I will put a link in the shown modes. But it's G I T A the Jita Mini by

00:16:07   Piaggio. Fast forward. How would you describe this thing? It's like a cooler, like a mini cooler on

00:16:17   wheels that drives itself sort of tautomous cooler on wheels, but it's not an actual cooler, but it

00:16:25   does have a container that you open it up, open up. It's it's yellow and spherical. I'd say maybe

00:16:31   about the size of a beach ball. And it balances sort of like a segue with two wheels and, you know,

00:16:40   gyroscopic thing. But the thing it can do is it follows the owner around. So you could, I guess,

00:16:47   in theory, if you found this useful and you don't have to navigate any steps on your Jersey journey,

00:16:54   you could like take it grocery shopping and put your groceries or put even just some of your

00:16:59   groceries in it in the Jita, and it'll just follow you home from the store. You did a way better job

00:17:06   explaining what it is. It is really neat. I can't imagine the scenario where I would use it. I mean,

00:17:14   and I live in a very flat city with a few steps, and it's only 28 pounds if you do need to like

00:17:21   lift it up or down a step. But damn if it didn't follow Jimmy Fallon around the stage. Oh, it did.

00:17:28   Yeah. I mean, so it's funny. I actually heard from somebody on Instagram this morning who told me

00:17:33   they bought one. And he said he uses it to get around. Let me look up. I think he's in Dallas.

00:17:39   And he puts his art supplies in it. But like you said, like groceries. I mean, I could see the

00:17:53   appeal for somebody who's disabled and has a hard time carrying stuff. Sure. Or pushing a cart,

00:17:57   right? Right. The issue becomes like, it sometimes needs to be like, navigated a little bit. And then

00:18:05   you kind of always have to have it following you. You can lock it. One thing I didn't mention on the

00:18:14   show is that you can lock it so you can use the app to lock it. And that will lock both the follow

00:18:18   function and the little container. So I guess you could like park it outside someplace. I just feel

00:18:25   like someone would steal it. But don't worry, you'd have the camera from your house to see if

00:18:30   someone stole it. Here's my question is, how did it know to follow Jimmy and not follow you?

00:18:36   It knows because you, well, we paired it to him. Basically, when it's in this unlock mode,

00:18:44   whoever's standing in front of it, and when you press the button on the front, it knows to follow.

00:18:51   I will tell you, it gets very confused at times. And like, I tested it for a weekend here with my

00:18:57   son, my four-year-old son. And if I would step in front of it, or he would step in front of it when

00:19:03   it was following me, it sometimes would then start following him. But also, it's hilarious to test

00:19:09   this with kids. It was funny, the funniest part of the show. And again, it's like we said, Jimmy Fallon

00:19:14   is, you know, obviously, a very talented comedian. But it was funny because he started by going slow

00:19:20   in a circle around the counter you had set up for demoing the other products. And then he got

00:19:26   feigned being creeped out or and sped up. And damn if that little guy didn't speed up to chase him

00:19:32   around. You know, like, I have, yeah, I have this hilarious video of my son just like sprinting in

00:19:37   the like on our sidewalk. And like, we have bumps on our sidewalk. So he is running, it's following

00:19:42   him really fast. And then it just like falls over because it goes over like a sidewalk, you know,

00:19:46   crack or something. But it's super, it will run. It will run after you.

00:19:52   Yeah, that was surprising to me because I thought, hey, that's doing a pretty good job following him

00:19:57   around. And you know, it's slow, but maybe the people who need something like this, it would be

00:20:01   slow. But the fact that it could go as fast as it could, and who knows if that's even the top speed,

00:20:06   that was wild to me. And so it's not, the thing is, my point is that it is not like some kind of

00:20:15   near field chip, you know, like an AirTag type thing that Jimmy Fallon had to put in his pocket.

00:20:20   You just stand in front of it and hit, okay, now follow me. And it like uses cameras to see,

00:20:27   okay, you, it looks like you're wearing blue jeans. Okay, I got your, I have your two legs.

00:20:31   Now I'll just follow you around. That's right. That's pretty impressive. Yeah.

00:20:37   Yeah. $1850 bucks. So it's not exactly, it's not like a whimsical purchase, but I think Roomba's,

00:20:49   a good, like a high-end Roomba is like $850 bucks. I mean, you know, this thing doesn't vacuum, but

00:20:55   it's not outlandishly priced. It's, and again, it's sort of, it reminds me of the glasses with

00:21:02   the camera. It's early days. Right. And I mentioned this on my podcast, two episodes go with Jim

00:21:10   Dalrymple, and we could talk about this cause I want to talk about your interview with Elon Musk,

00:21:15   which was excellent. Like I said, you have been, I don't know how you did it, crazy busy, but like

00:21:21   talking about Apple and autonomy, it seemed, you know, everybody seems to think they're making a

00:21:27   car, but there's so many other uses for autonomous technology and it's inevitable, right? We're going

00:21:37   to have robots. I mean, we kind of do now and they all are kind of laughable little things that don't

00:21:44   do much. And our poor Roomba is always getting stuck under the table. But it's really kind of

00:21:50   awesome to have a little disc-shaped robot who goes around your house and picks up bits of dust

00:21:56   and you know, crumbs and stuff. Totally. And it's funny, there was a question that was cut from the

00:22:03   Fallon piece where right after we showed the robot, he asked, he said, he said, "Oh, you

00:22:08   interviewed Elon Musk a few weeks ago and you also talked about robotics." And I had this answer,

00:22:13   which they cut because obviously it was super smart and no time for this really smart answer.

00:22:18   But where I sort of made the parallel that, yeah, like Tesla says they're a robotics company

00:22:23   and that's because of the autonomous driving stuff they're working on and the Tesla bot that they're

00:22:27   working on. And yeah, it's similar. It's like, this is the early days of it, looking at the Jita.

00:22:33   Of course, like, do you want to trust this thing right now with anyone's life?

00:22:37   And I did have that funny little bit where I said like, "Oh, you could put your kid in here," but

00:22:42   like, you wouldn't, you know, he was like, "I wouldn't put my kid in here." But like, yes, as

00:22:47   we're like thinking about where this is all heading, yeah, like we can take cues from this funny

00:22:53   little luggage rolling machine. You know, you could put like a little tiny dog in there, you know,

00:23:01   like the little dog some people have that like fit in a purse. So we could put in the notes,

00:23:06   there's a funny TikTok where somebody's doing that with the Jita. Okay. Somebody sent that to me too.

00:23:12   So people have done it. I did not want to do that to my dog. I've put browser through a lot with my

00:23:17   projects, just like my mom, but browser's not going in the Jita Mini. But also, what did I want to say?

00:23:26   Uh, about Elon and autonomy, that your clever observation on the show that was cut?

00:23:34   Was that very- No, it was another thing about the Jita. Anyway, I'll think of it again. But yeah,

00:23:41   don't put your dog in here. Well, the other thing is, and it's so obvious,

00:23:45   but I feel like it doesn't get talked enough about that. Okay, I'm compelled by Elon Musk's

00:23:53   description of Tesla's vehicles as effectively being robots, you know, and it's, you know,

00:23:59   there are things we can debate about Tesla's claims about the level of their self-driving

00:24:06   at the moment. I have some pretty smart friends who think self-driving cars, fully self-driving,

00:24:11   like take a nap in the car or just, you know, like the rumors that Apple wants to make one

00:24:17   without a steering wheel and you just get in and tell Siri, you know, where to take you and off you

00:24:23   go, that that'll never happen. Some smart friends. Elon Musk obviously thinks it will happen. He's

00:24:29   pretty smart. We'll see. I mean, it's a good goal, but to me, the overriding difference is people die

00:24:38   in cars, right? Or people who get hit by cars die, right? That's, you know, even worse, right? You're

00:24:44   better off in the car than to be the poor person, you know, crossing the street or riding a bicycle.

00:24:50   The stakes are literally life and death. And it's serious injuries too. Like you could get in a car

00:24:59   accident and hopefully nobody dies, but people get hurt. Roomba is not going to hurt anybody.

00:25:05   You know, this Jita is, I don't see a way you can get hurt. I mean, I guess a kid could be playing

00:25:10   with it and tip it over, but it's, it's really funny that you say this, because I've been

00:25:15   thinking a lot about this and it's about this trust, right? And I felt it a little bit when I

00:25:21   saw my son and I didn't post this because you can see his face and everything, but I had this robot

00:25:27   like running after my son, right? And I'm thinking, oh, this isn't like, what's the worst that can

00:25:32   happen here, right? And I sort of felt a little irresponsible, but I kept thinking, all right, well,

00:25:37   it's going to stop or I can get in there and I can defend my son against this thing, right? Like,

00:25:43   it wasn't like going to, he's bigger than it. But it made me think about, I have a, I'm trusting

00:25:51   this thing right now, right? And that's, there's going to be these different levels of our trust

00:25:57   in technology and our different levels of trust in robotics. So like you're bringing up right now,

00:26:02   like there's a big difference between a car and this little robot and cars can kill people,

00:26:07   but we know that right now people are using the Tesla self-driving features and they have some

00:26:14   trust in it, right? Like they, they're enabling it. They know it's a beta feature and they're

00:26:19   using it. And then you see these crazy videos of people just like putting something else in the

00:26:23   driver's seat or whatnot. But some of us will look at that and be like, absolutely not. So I keep

00:26:30   thinking about these, that like this level of trust and what's going to, will there be certain

00:26:35   people that will be like, I give it all, I'm okay with it. And then there's going to be these others

00:26:41   that just say, absolutely not. I, and it makes me think of, well, everything makes me think of

00:26:47   Star Wars, but it makes me think of R2-D2 and C-3PO in the, especially in the first movie.

00:26:53   Like they're both, they're key players in the plot, but they could not appear more harmless,

00:27:00   right? I mean, the, the, what's the worst that could happen? R2 could tip over on you. I mean,

00:27:05   I mean, and I know that in the prequels later on, they, they added the ability for R2-D2 to fly

00:27:13   and he had like a flame thrower at one point, you know, so that, you know, that's a little different,

00:27:18   but as seen in 1977 in Star Wars, these robots were just slow and gentle, right? I mean, and

00:27:26   C-3PO, like what an interesting choice not to give him a very computery voice and instead have this

00:27:34   very gentlemanly, very gentle and gentlemanly Anthony Daniels do the voice, which just emphasized

00:27:43   that he was, you know, harmless. So I'm going to tell you something, John, I guess I'm telling all

00:27:50   your listeners this, which I think I've said publicly before. I have tried to watch Star Wars.

00:27:57   Oh no. And I think I've made it through the first one every time I fall asleep.

00:28:04   And I've said, I'm going to try again soon with my son, but you will pretty much never find me

00:28:13   making Star Wars references in what I write or what I do video because I can't really.

00:28:19   So that's a secret that I need to tell you all. Well, you are familiar though with R2-D2 and C-3PO.

00:28:26   Yeah, yeah. But like, I can't go deep, you know, I'm not going to try to go deep with you on it

00:28:30   right now. Like, you know, like if you could buy like a C-3PO and have him, you know, clean up

00:28:37   your house and, you know, get you a beverage from the fridge, fold your laundry, that'd be great.

00:28:43   Well, and I was actually just writing about this for 2022 look ahead of tech. Amazon's coming out

00:28:51   with that Astro robot and it's invite only and who knows really how many they're going to ship,

00:28:58   sounds like more than they thought, but it, you know, it does, it has cameras to learn your house

00:29:04   and so you're going to let this thing roam around your house, talking again about that camera

00:29:08   intersection. These are cameras that are connected to Amazon. It does a lot of the Alexa things,

00:29:14   but the main thing that makes it different from the like typical stationary Alexa in the corner

00:29:19   is that it roams around and it learns the different rooms and it can monitor for when you're not there,

00:29:24   so it has security features, but it also has like the ability to go to where people are hanging out.

00:29:32   So sort of like autonomous in that sense, like if it knows that the family hangs out in a certain

00:29:36   area, the Astro rolls over there frequently. So that's coming early next year. I hope to review

00:29:44   it. All right, let me take a break here to thank our first sponsor to our good friends at Linode.

00:29:49   Linode.com/thetalkshow. You can go there and see why Linode has been voted the top infrastructure

00:29:56   as a service provider by both G2 and TrustRadius. What do they do? It's servers. You go there,

00:30:04   they're a service provider for running a website or running a web service.

00:30:07   That's where I host Daring Fireball. They are rock solid and offer extremely competitive prices

00:30:15   and include they have award-winning technical support offered 24 hours a day, seven days a year,

00:30:22   365. Wait, 24 hours, seven days a week, 365 days a year. That's the way that works.

00:30:29   So even if like this episode comes out in a day or two and you need help on Christmas,

00:30:35   you could get it. I don't, it seems a little crazy to me. Maybe let that,

00:30:39   you know, see if you can keep that web server going until the 26th or 27th, but if you need it,

00:30:43   they're there. And developers have been trusting Linode for projects, both big and small since

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00:31:02   centralized tools like Terraform. They make cloud computing fast, simple, and affordable.

00:31:09   I'm proud to say I host my website there. That's not because they sponsor the show.

00:31:13   If they stop sponsoring the show, I'd still keep my website there because where else am I going to

00:31:16   move it? They're perfect. So go to linode.com/the-talk-show, create a free account with

00:31:23   your GitHub or Google account, or just use your email address. And by starting at that URL, you'll

00:31:31   get $100 in credit. 100 bucks! linode.com/the-talk-show. What's going on there? You got some noise?

00:31:39   I got a lot of noise. But if I turn the heat off, my family will freeze, John.

00:31:46   So would you like my family to freeze for your show? But it's gotten so much louder,

00:31:53   is the question. Like, over the year, I think it got louder. I bet we have to change some of

00:31:57   the filters. How cold is it? I mean, in this area right now, it's 42 degrees outside.

00:32:06   I meant in your house. I always assume. Yeah, it's 41 here. I always assume the weather is similar.

00:32:11   Hold on, let me see. Yeah, I got a kid that's sick. I got a four-year-old who has a cold upstairs,

00:32:19   and I got a five-and-a-half-month-old trying to nap.

00:32:23   Well, I don't want him to freeze. I don't want him to freeze.

00:32:26   Honestly, it's not that... We're at 70. Do you have this battle in your house?

00:32:31   Oh yeah, all the time. Yep, yep.

00:32:33   Yeah, yeah.

00:32:35   I've effectively been banned from using the Nest app.

00:32:38   Because you get yelled at? Or are you... I'm going to assume you're the one who says,

00:32:43   "Turn it down." Or if it's heat, "Turn it down." If it's AC, "Turn it up."

00:32:49   It's more complicated than that. Amy has... My wife, Amy, just has, to me,

00:32:55   complicated theories about when you turn the heat up and down, and that you turn it way down at

00:32:59   night. And I'm like, "Well, why do that? Why not keep it around that same 68 or whatever all the

00:33:07   time?" But I've been told to stay away. Our battle, it's funny here. We have two kids,

00:33:15   and so we use the monitor, the baby monitor a lot. And the baby monitor has built-in

00:33:20   temperature, right? It shows what it is in the rooms. And there's always a discrepancy between

00:33:28   what the baby monitor says and the Nest says. And my big fight is always, "What should we trust more,

00:33:35   this $100 baby monitor with a crappy temperature sensor? Or should we trust the actual unit in the

00:33:44   house?" And then we also bought these Nest sensors that we put in the rooms. And again, there's like

00:33:50   discrepancy. And I'm like, "Well, what should we trust more?" This whole podcast is about trust in

00:33:55   technology and fighting with your spouse or your partner about the heat.

00:33:59   your Nest claims that it is 68, an accurate NASA-quality thermometer would say, "It's actually

00:34:13   like 69 and a half, you know? It's a little low." But then once you know the numbers you like on your

00:34:19   Nest, you know, they should be consistent.

00:34:21   SHANNON: Right. Right. But this is the constant battle, and I hear this from a lot of other moms

00:34:27   or dads, mostly dads. I'm always on the sides of the dads where I'm like, "We cannot keep adjusting

00:34:33   the thermostat to what it says on the baby monitor." That is not something -- we cannot

00:34:41   live our life that way. And it's this constant battle. And it's the same thing like, "Shh,

00:34:47   someone's cold in the house. We're turning up the heat like five degrees." But maybe just one.

00:34:52   Yeah. You do kind of have me pegged, though, like in general. And it's not even that I'm cheap.

00:34:59   I'll waste money on X, Y, and Z. It's lucky that I haven't bought one of these $1,800 Jitas already

00:35:04   just to play with it. But in my mind, it's less work to tweak the thermostat than to just put

00:35:11   another hoodie on in the winter, put a sweater on on top of where I already was. Or in the summer,

00:35:18   just -- it's summer. You're supposed to just be wearing a T-shirt and shorts.

00:35:21   Yeah, I think we usually agree on when at night. I'd rather be warmer at night.

00:35:27   Like, I don't want to turn it down at night. Anyway.

00:35:32   Let's talk about something else you've covered recently. Your combination, column, and video

00:35:41   stuck in the metaverse for 24 hours. Oh yeah, let's talk about that.

00:35:45   Again, your commitment to these pieces blows me away and makes me feel lazy, to be honest,

00:35:52   because I would never do that. You checked into a hotel with two Oculus rifts so that you could

00:36:00   keep them on all the time. Yeah, well, now they're called metaquests.

00:36:03   Metaquests. All right. Metaquests. It's a nice thing they decided to change the name mid-project,

00:36:09   because, you know, that was like a week after the meta rebrand and the -- I honestly don't know why

00:36:14   they had to change the name of the Quest. Yeah, I don't know either.

00:36:17   Why? Like, what's wrong with Oculus? Like, what -- that was -- they dropped the Oculus and put

00:36:22   in meta, so it's metaquest2. Right, they already had a brand that was

00:36:26   disassociated from Facebook. If they felt like, "Hey, we gotta stop branding everything Facebook,

00:36:34   we've kind of got a publicity problem or perception problem, we should have a broader

00:36:39   brand," Oculus was already there, so why do that? Right, I guess it's like, "We'd rather realign and

00:36:45   be associated with this thing, so we want to make this the meta." Right, I guess that's the thing,

00:36:50   is that it's central to the whole reason they picked the name meta, is this thing,

00:36:54   so that we actually -- you know, it's not so much that they wanted it to get away from Facebook,

00:36:58   but that they want meta to be known as the leading brand of these things. But anyway,

00:37:03   you checked yourself into the hotel for 24 hours and tried -- You would do the same too,

00:37:09   if you had two little kids. I might check myself into a hotel for 24 hours,

00:37:13   I might do that after we record here, but I could not stand wearing a headset for that long.

00:37:20   And I have used the -- I believe the current Oculus, but only briefly, my son has the HTC

00:37:30   Vive, which is for gaming PCs, so that's one that's tethered. And I've used that one

00:37:39   significantly, just because, "Alright, it's yours, but you gotta let me review it."

00:37:47   I find -- You want to know what he's looking at in there, too.

00:37:51   I find it to be so -- well, when he does, he still uses it, but it is interesting to me how

00:38:00   he uses it enough that it doesn't feel like it was a waste of money to get it for him,

00:38:04   but he doesn't use it that much. And his explanation -- and I believe him -- is that

00:38:10   most of the best games aren't meant for VR yet, even on PC. And so there's a few. But when he is,

00:38:17   it is funny because it's so immersive that if I knock on his door and pop in his room,

00:38:24   I think I can usually see what's going on because it gets mirrored to the actual computer display,

00:38:30   but he'll sometimes jump out of his chair when he realizes that somebody's entered the room.

00:38:36   Because --

00:38:36   Right, because he has no idea.

00:38:37   Right. I couldn't do it. I don't know. And I argue with my pal and colleague Ben Thompson

00:38:43   about this. Ben is more optimistic about VR for work, that you could sit down anywhere

00:38:51   and just -- instead of having a laptop or a tablet, you could just put this headset on and you'll have

00:38:58   a virtual display with -- or multiple virtual computer displays in front of you, like minority

00:39:05   report, and your hand gestures will just work, and you can have these meetings that are all-encompassing

00:39:13   virtual experiences. I get the meeting thing a little bit, but I just don't think that's what

00:39:19   people want. I don't think what people want after the last two years of Zoom fatigue is make this

00:39:25   more all-engrossing of my attention while I'm doing it.

00:39:29   Well, I was actually going to say I would love to have a meeting with you in there,

00:39:34   because you're kind of the perfect person. Like, we haven't seen each other in how long?

00:39:38   Two years?

00:39:41   At least, right?

00:39:42   Longer?

00:39:43   Maybe longer.

00:39:44   Right.

00:39:45   I can't remember if I missed --

00:39:46   iPhone 11 launch?

00:39:49   Yeah, like 2019.

00:39:51   Yeah.

00:39:53   It's probably the last time we saw each other.

00:39:55   Right. And like, we probably -- we have seen each other on Zoom meetings. We definitely have.

00:40:01   But like, there -- it is -- have you had one of these? Have you used it yet? Like, just to do a --

00:40:06   No, not to do a meeting. I should. I should do it with Ben.

00:40:09   You gotta do it. You gotta do it. Do I do it frequently? No. But when I do it,

00:40:14   I'm always like, man, I really just felt like I met with that person. And it's obviously also like,

00:40:21   that person did not look like themselves. They looked like a cartoon with no legs. Like,

00:40:25   that is what -- your avatar might look a little bit like you. You have kind of a

00:40:29   good avatar face, I feel. Like --

00:40:32   I had a good -- I had a good -- what was the one on We called? Me. I had a good Me.

00:40:39   Yeah. Do you have a good -- I feel like a good Memoji or -- my Memoji is like, really bad.

00:40:45   Oh, mine's all right. Yeah, I'm -- there's an easy way to pick a Memoji for me.

00:40:51   Right.

00:40:52   But it also looks exactly like Matthew Panzarinos.

00:40:55   Right. Old dudes look kind of the same in their Memojis.

00:40:59   Yeah, you just sort of middle-aged, black hair, you know, like kind of a beard.

00:41:05   Right. You know, like a roundish face, eyebrows.

00:41:09   Yeah, yeah.

00:41:10   Yeah, I feel like people with glasses do really good Memojis, or good Bitmojis or avatars,

00:41:16   like similar with the Facebook Horizon workplace avatar. But anyway, like, you do it and you really

00:41:23   do feel like that person was in your space. And like, for someone like you, who I haven't seen in

00:41:29   that amount of time, like, I would love to have a meeting with you in that kind of space. And

00:41:33   you do it -- I mean, there's some novelty to it, and you're sort of like, okay,

00:41:37   like, this is not something we could do for long periods of time. But I do think with the right

00:41:42   tools -- and this is where, like, when I was doing a lot of the meeting stuff, and you can pair your

00:41:48   MacBook with it, too, I don't know if you've seen that feature -- I started the light went off in

00:41:53   my head, which is like, if Apple does this, right, if Apple does the headset, which we all think

00:41:58   they're going to do it at some point, they can do it so well. Right? Because they control the

00:42:05   computer, they control the phone, and there's all these ways right now with the Oculus Quest that

00:42:10   they're trying to do it, right, that you can pair your computer -- it does like a fake 3D computer

00:42:16   in the space, and it places the screen on top of it. I'm doing a bad job explaining this, but I

00:42:22   don't even think -- I think you showed it in your video, but -- I think I showed it in the video,

00:42:25   and it works horribly. Right? It's so slow, you've got to pair a mouse with it, it's sluggish, like,

00:42:32   I was using that -- that was like the only way I communicated with my family during that period

00:42:36   was like, through iMessage on my computer through there. And it's so slow, it's just bad.

00:42:42   >> And doesn't it look pixel-y, too? Because there's --

00:42:45   >> So pixel-y. >> Right.

00:42:46   >> Yeah, like, it's just all pixelated, it's like using a remote desktop, but in the worst possible

00:42:52   place, you know, remote desktops are usually laggy anyway. Like, so, the light kind of went off when

00:42:59   I was doing that, I was like, if Apple did this, right, you'd have like seamless iMessage

00:43:03   integration, you'd have an easy way to bring over your Safari windows and everything like that,

00:43:08   like, you could see how easy it could all just sort of be set up in there. The question's like,

00:43:14   do we want that? Right? What -- why would you want that?

00:43:19   >> Yeah, I don't know. And, you know, and the other factor with Apple getting into it is,

00:43:28   what do we think of Apple as a game company, right? Clearly, they're, you know, in fact,

00:43:34   the main reason that they're embroiled in, you know, the lawsuit with Epic is that they're

00:43:40   gigantic in mobile gaming. Just, you know, I guess the biggest by far mobile gaming company with

00:43:48   Google coming in second. But the Mac famously has never been, or at least not since like the

00:43:58   black and white days of the late 80s when it was a very small cult market, you know, in the post

00:44:06   Doom era, there have not been very many great Mac games. It's just, you know, so which one would it

00:44:13   be like? Would it play like mobile? Or would it play like the Mac where they just can't get

00:44:19   traction? >> Well, I think that's, again, the biggest

00:44:23   opportunity for Apple, right? Like, you even look at the Oculus app store, and there are the top

00:44:33   games, which probably your son would know more about this, which is the top games have not made

00:44:37   their way to this platform, right? So you have some of the more fun games like the Beat Saber's,

00:44:43   and obviously also like Facebook or Meta's already tried to gobble up some of these, right? They're

00:44:48   trying to buy these companies. And there seems like there's so much opportunity for another

00:44:55   platform here that also can easily in some ways port over. So I've been wondering a lot about

00:45:03   that. >> Yeah, and it's, you know, like the Mark Gurmans of the world are saying that the, I think

00:45:11   Gurman's latest estimate is that they're trying to get it out by the end of next year. So like a year

00:45:16   from now, we might be, you know, if they hit the target. It just seems so far away from me display

00:45:23   wise, though. It just seems like if you can't make... >> Well, I agree. I agree. Like the tech,

00:45:31   and this year there's going to be the Project Cambria from Meta, which is going to have better,

00:45:37   higher resolution display. It's going to have more cameras so it can do more augmented

00:45:42   reality features like it will improve this MacBook situation, right? Like you'll be able to see more

00:45:47   of what's in your space and have pass through. So that's all coming from Meta this year. But I think

00:45:54   again, like you're saying, like it's going to be this developers race. And right now there's really

00:46:00   just Meta. I mean, yes, there's HTC, but that seems to be like the higher end. And I personally

00:46:06   keep thinking someone's going to buy them. I know they've been passed around a lot, but...

00:46:10   >> It just seems like HTC is coming at it from the gaming PC angle and Oculus is coming at it more

00:46:18   from a mobile angle. I mean, and I don't, I'm not going to say, I was going to say, I don't follow

00:46:26   Facebook closely. I follow it more closely than most people. But I always thought that Zuckerberg's

00:46:32   interest in Oculus was primarily very long story, very short. They were a website and then mobile

00:46:45   became a thing and they're like, oh, well, shoehorn our website into an app for this Apple App Store.

00:46:51   And then the App Store and truly native apps became such a big thing and Facebook jumped on it.

00:46:59   You know, total Bill Gates, like let's turn this company on a dime. Oh, let's, this phone thing is

00:47:06   not an afterthought. This is going to be our main product. This is the main Facebook, right? And

00:47:11   got very serious about it. And then he thought this sucks. I wish I owned the phone platform.

00:47:17   And they tried it. They made a Facebook phone. Right? Amazon had a similar moment where Amazon

00:47:22   made a phone. Cause I think, you know, I went to all those events. They reviewed all those phones,

00:47:27   you know, and they both gave up on it very quickly, which is the opposite of Microsoft,

00:47:33   right? Microsoft traditionally makes a crappy first product, a slightly less crappy second

00:47:39   product, and then just sticks to it for another year. And then version three is like, all right,

00:47:45   you know? Right. But this, I mean, that's what's coming, right? I mean, that's been,

00:47:50   I've covered it, everyone's covered it, which is this coming sort of Zuckerberg versus Apple versus

00:47:57   whoever will be the third platform, I think, you know, it's certainly, the two seem like they're

00:48:03   going to be Apple and Facebook or Apple and Meta. And then Microsoft seems like the likely bet,

00:48:09   right? They've got the HoloLens, they've got Windows. They've already said they're going to

00:48:13   enter there, but you know, who knows? But I think with Apple, it's clear, and I think this was the

00:48:20   Germin report, which was gaming and communications. And I think that makes total sense. They need to

00:48:28   start to do that, whether they have to do it publicly, I think they kind of have a tougher

00:48:34   road about getting developers on board without doing it publicly, right? Like they can only do

00:48:39   so much with what they've done with ARKit, with, hey, build this for the phone, and then eventually

00:48:43   we're going to make tools that make it easier for you to port to some sort of headset platform.

00:48:47   I think that the big difference between mobile and PCs was, okay, the Mac came out in 1984,

00:48:58   and was clearly, if you knew what to look for, this is the future of personal computing.

00:49:04   It's something like this. And Microsoft had Mac apps, right? Excel started as a Mac app.

00:49:12   But they made Windows 1.0, which was a joke, then Windows 2, then Windows 3,

00:49:18   which actually caught on and sort of started painting Apple into a corner. And then Windows 95,

00:49:24   you know, super famous, you know, people lined up around the block like it was a rock concert to get

00:49:29   their boxed copy of it on day one. But I feel like Gates stuck with that because the Mac

00:49:38   never really became like a mass market phenomenon, right? It was like, oh, there is still room here

00:49:46   to be the big gorilla in operating systems. Whereas with like the time the Fire Phone

00:49:53   and the Facebook phone came out, I think Zuckerberg and Bezos, I think they were both,

00:49:58   they're both so smart, so cutthroat, they looked at it and they thought, ah, it's too late.

00:50:03   It's too late. We should have done this. We should have done this two years ago.

00:50:06   There's no way this is entrenched. This is the way platforms work. iOS and Android are our phone

00:50:15   platforms, period. And I think Zuckerberg, I think wisely, if he wants to own his own hardware

00:50:22   platform, picking VR as the next target and hiring, you know, getting the Oculus team and John Carmack

00:50:30   and these super talented people. And it was really smart. It's like, this is a long play. I wish we

00:50:37   owned a major mobile platform, but too late. So let's not miss out on the next one.

00:50:43   Stephanie: Yeah. And it may put them at a disadvantage, but it didn't put

00:50:47   Apple at a disadvantage to not own the most popular desktop operating system when the iPhone

00:50:52   came along. So I'm very interested in it all, obviously, by doing it for 24 hours.

00:50:59   And the point of that was that this is totally not ready. By the way, I was sick for two days

00:51:04   afterwards. Just like, headache, low, yeah, just like subtle headache for two days. It was like,

00:51:15   yeah, this was not the smartest thing I ever did. But I never saw clearer where this is headed.

00:51:22   And also, talk about a computer for your head, very clearly that this is still a really generation

00:51:29   one, not even generation one computer for your head, right? Like, the thing gets warm,

00:51:32   the battery is horrible. Like, what you were mentioning, the pixelation of certain things is,

00:51:38   you still visibly see it. You know, the controller and the accuracy of the hand tracking and all of

00:51:44   that stuff is just like, okay, this is going to take a while. This is going to take a while.

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00:54:03   It was very interesting to me that they partnered with a company, you know, Apple isn't known for sharing their demo. This is with other companies' products, but they obviously did not have VR things to show. And we in the invited media got to try some games and there was a couple other things. But one of the things I remember from that demo is I just could not get over the fact that if I looked down, I didn't have any legs.

00:54:29   Which was this? The...

00:54:31   It was like about four or five years ago. And Apple, it was like one of those things where they shuffle us through various rooms.

00:54:40   I do remember that.

00:54:41   You know, they all have like a room just for sound and they've got like an orchestral score from a major Hollywood movie opened in Logic and they show you, you know, this is incredible. And they've got gazillion dollar speakers set up, you know, so that sounds fantastic. And one of the rooms was like a VR room. But to do it, you know, there was no Apple VR products, so they used the HTC Vive.

00:55:08   Right. And they had like the sensors set up in the room.

00:55:11   Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Perfectly set up sensors, you know, perfectly calibrated.

00:55:15   Right. Because you basically needed like a room to do that set up.

00:55:21   Right.

00:55:22   Yeah. It's going to get better. And I kind of believe this end of 2022 rumor that we're hearing from more and more analysts and folks like Germin, I just think that Apple's going to want to get on this development.

00:55:37   This developer train faster than it, you know, faster than the hardware is going to be ready.

00:55:44   It is truly a genuine art form to know when to hit the go button and say, OK, let's build this plan, this device, this OS. Let's try to ship it in eight months. It's a real product, not a prototype. Go. Because the right time to do it is not when the product is perfect.

00:56:08   Apple Watch, I think they probably would at least one generation too early in hindsight. I think that the battery life.

00:56:16   I agree with that.

00:56:17   Was so bad that it was, you know, but it was close. Like, and by the time they came out with the Series 2, it really was. It was like, hey, this is actually a much better product already.

00:56:32   And I think with the iPhone, they came out with it at exactly the right time. It was just absolutely positively nailed it, even knowing that they were building it on the crazy slow edge network.

00:56:47   You know, and it had battery life issues too, but it was so compelling and so useful. It was truly useful as a product right out of the gate in 2007 that it was pretty well timed. iPad, I would say they timed the first iPad extremely well.

00:57:06   Yeah, and I think like this is going to be, it sounds like it's going to be a different marketing position than any of those products. I mean, maybe most similar to a watch, right? But we're putting this out there. We think this is a bet on the future.

00:57:20   We want people to create for it. And I mean, that was a little bit of the watch messaging, right? Like they weren't sure what the watch was going to be.

00:57:28   I mean, you look back and you're like that first keynote, they're like, yeah, fitness in there, notifications and this and that. And like over the years, they became way more focused on what the watch was supposed to be.

00:57:39   I think with this too, I mean, the rumors is smaller, just not going to be a huge blockbuster product at first. Especially too when you think about how long Cook and some of the executives have been talking about this space as an interest. What is the term they always use? We're highly interested in or we're...

00:58:00   Before the Apple Watch came out, he said, I think at the All Things D conference, one of them, he was like, the wrist is an area of interest to us. And I was like, that's actually kind of crazy because there's only two things you can build.

00:58:16   You can build a watch or a fitness tracker. And fitness trackers are like a Fitbit, especially at the time, like a 2014 era Fitbit told you the time, they were technically watches. So really, you're just talking about what's the priority of the product? How fitness first is it versus style first or something like that.

00:58:38   Yeah, and I think they've been saying this for like three years now, at least, about AR and not VR, but AR. And so that's, I think, a little bit of the challenge too, where they have to explain to people this is not the end goal, but we are building on this. Yeah, it feels like a watch situation.

00:58:55   The other thing, it's just a little bit, I'm going to say gossipy, but maybe that's not the right word. Or Kremlinology, right? Like the old word from the Cold War, where there were these specialists who could read the propaganda newspapers coming out of Moscow and read between the lines, even though, because it was all a bunch of bullshit.

00:59:17   But if you knew what to look for, you'd say, "I see what they're doing." As an outside apologist, one of the things that I find interesting about AR and VR, and a reason to be optimistic that it might ship next year is there's lots of reports ever since the get-go that Project Titan has a huge amount of turnover.

00:59:40   Leadership turnover, I mean, at the highest levels now. Kevin Lynch, the guy who still is also running Apple Watch, has moved to take over. Just a huge soap opera saga of executive turnover and bringing Bob Mansfield back out of retirement because things had gotten out of hand.

00:59:58   The AR/VR stuff under Mike Rockwell, who I interviewed on stage four years ago, five years ago, they've had no turnover whatsoever. So whatever that team is doing seemingly is making Tim Cook and the rest of the senior executives think that they're on to something.

01:00:19   Yeah, and when I interviewed Federighi, one of the times last year I asked about it, and he just gave us usual smirk that they're still really interested in it. It wasn't one of those backtracking things.

01:00:36   And people on YouTube were definitely reading into that. I remember whatever the time code was, which was basically people were like, "Look at him say yes!" Look at him just be like, "Confirm that they are doing this," with his eyes or something like that, somebody was saying.

01:00:51   It was this year, right? It was one of your interviews with Craig Federighi where you asked point blank, as the total pro you are, is he in line and interested in perhaps succeeding Tim Cook as the next CEO? And he got so embarrassed.

01:01:07   He tried to make a joke out of it, but it's like, I don't know, I thought it was a very interesting answer because he didn't just get, I don't think he was ready to be asked, and Apple executives usually are extremely ready for any question.

01:01:24   And I thought of that again about two months ago, six weeks ago, when Federighi spoke at the Web Summit in Spain, and a big, big conference over there gave his impassioned pitch for why mandatory sideloading for mobile platforms would be a terrible idea for legislators to mandate.

01:01:52   Boy, that sure seemed like, I know, it seemed less about him talking about, I mean, there were technical aspects to his argument, but it seemed a lot less than his usual role as Senior Vice President of Software.

01:02:10   Like, when he's on stage at WWDC, it's to talk about software. When he's on stage at a product event, it's to talk about software, but they usually don't even bring him out, like, when, like, the iPhone introduction comes out, because that's about hardware, and they bring out someone like Kyan Drance, who's their product marketing senior executive in charge of hardware.

01:02:34   Yeah, or Jaws.

01:02:36   So, you know, somebody, they obviously, Apple, you know, like, I linked to it and just said, you know, this is not a little thing for an Apple Senior Vice President to travel all the way to Barcelona to give a speech at somebody else's conference, especially at this time of year, where it's like release season for Apple Software.

01:02:56   Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, his quote, I believe, was insanity or something like that, like, you know, that would be insanity, would I ask, like, you know, your name is a successor, and he said something like insanity, you know, that would be, he said that would be irresponsible insanity or something like that, right?

01:03:16   And he's just joking and deferring it, but I was very surprised at how many times they put him out this year, not only, obviously with me, I was very engaged in both of the conversations, both of the times we talked, because they were around specific software features, but other things, I felt the same way.

01:03:36   And I, you know, part of that's that he's very good. He's maybe the, you know, better than Cook in some regards in terms of talking and explaining things. I don't know who else do they really have to do.

01:03:48   I thought about this.

01:03:49   They've got a lot of people, but he's very good.

01:03:52   I would think that it would, that that particular speech, once it was decided that Apple should send somebody over to do it and that they should send somebody senior, to emphasize how, it's like a respect to the conference, right, as opposed to sending somebody lower who nobody's heard of.

01:04:12   These are from the people who are keynote regulars at Apple. Cook obviously could have done it. And he's, you know, he's got his own style on stage, but it is a little reserved, right?

01:04:28   He's not bad and he's not stilted, but he's not enthusiastic like Craig is.

01:04:35   Phil Schiller could have done it, but he has not appeared on stage since taking the title of Apple Fellow and no longer being Senior Vice President of Product Marketing.

01:04:48   I'm not sure we'll ever see Phil Schiller on stage again. I'd love to. I think it would be a fantastic surprise.

01:04:54   He could have done it, but he's not there. But then that, the only other person I could think of would be Jaws, who is sort of the new Phil Schiller Senior Vice President of Product Marketing.

01:05:04   So I don't know, you know, how much debate there was within Apple, but I would think it would be one of those four.

01:05:11   Yeah. Yeah. And Craig's just very, very compelling speaker.

01:05:16   Yeah, he just really is. So I don't know. I thought that was pretty interesting moment as we reviewed Joanna Stern's 2021.

01:05:25   Greatest Hits.

01:05:27   Let me take another break here and tell you about a new sponsor on the show. Very happy to have them on. Short and sweet message. Revenue Cat.

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01:06:18   you don't really have like a centralized platform. It's just a huge amount of work to do subscriptions, to do in-app purchases, to keep track of all this stuff.

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01:06:35   So my thanks to Revenue Cat for sponsoring the show. Go to revenuecat.com. That's it. Revenuecat.com.

01:06:45   Here it is. I've been putting it off. I probably misintroduced you on the show because I promised you months ago that I would forever after introduce you as Emmy Award-winning Joanna Stern.

01:06:59   Just put it in the list of the things that have gone wrong with this booking, John. You'll be hearing from my people.

01:07:08   Well, I laugh because Jimmy Fallon introduced you to Wall Street.

01:07:12   It's true.

01:07:13   Emmy Award-winning Wall Street Journal personal technology reporter Joanna Stern.

01:07:19   Columnist, but yeah.

01:07:20   Columnist. I forget the exact name. Emmy Award-winning is what... I stopped listening after that. I was like, this is never going to stop.

01:07:31   But you won an Emmy.

01:07:34   That is probably the most shocking thing of the year. Yeah, we at the Wall Street Journal won our first Emmy for this documentary I did last year.

01:07:44   Published, honestly, maybe this time last year, a little bit earlier, about a very... it's not the most uplifting topic that I've ever covered, which is death and technology.

01:07:57   But yeah, I'm still in shock over that because that was a piece that I just became so invested in and just to see it recognized was amazing.

01:08:11   Eternal, a tech quest to live forever. It is available on YouTube. I promise everybody it will be in the show notes.

01:08:19   It is good. It is touching. And your demeanor as the host of the documentary I thought had the perfect tone of acknowledging, hey, this is a bit morbid talking about stuff like this.

01:08:35   But where are we going with these digital, our digital legacies?

01:08:41   And what might be possible in the future to sort of preserve the sense of somebody?

01:08:49   I'm not... that feels too far-fetched for me. I mean, I'm not going to say like in a thousand years it's not possible, but I don't think I'm going to live to a time where somebody can somehow digitize their mind, die, and you still feel like your friend is still there.

01:09:05   That doesn't seem possible to me. But it's obviously a thing that science fiction writers have been imagining since the beginnings of science fiction.

01:09:17   Yeah, and like I... sort of how I envisioned the piece always was sort of like, look at what we have right now, like sort of as a step into the future. Like look at what we have right now, which actually what we have right now is pretty much right now literally in the news because of what Apple introduced in iOS 15.4.

01:09:37   Sorry, too many dots. 15.2 with the digital legacy contact feature, but sort of what all these tech companies have offered us right now. And then look a little bit beyond that where I feature a company called Hereafter where you can make an interactive voice bot.

01:09:53   Really, it's basically like it works with Alexa and you can kind of talk and hear the recordings of somebody who's died. And then, hey, look like way out into the future to what this company is doing. They're doing it right now. But like, maybe one day, I agree with you, it's very eerie and weird, where like, we have humanoid robots that look like ourselves, and they talk and sound and have our consciousness is what they say.

01:10:18   So yeah, the idea of the piece was to put that in front of people, which is like, where

01:10:23   could this go? And it follows one specific woman who is actually just had another health

01:10:31   scare. Her name is Lucy and she, if you watch, you get to know Lucy a little bit. She's

01:10:36   in her 20s and has had, has fought this terminal illness for her whole life and she thinks

01:10:41   a lot about digital legacy and has like made a lot of plans about what will happen to her

01:10:45   social media account, how she wants to, she made videos that when she passes, she wants

01:10:50   those to be posted. And so it follows her to find sort of the right solution to something

01:10:56   that she's been looking for.

01:10:57   Yeah, so I, because that you can imagine, right? You could do that now. You can sit

01:11:04   your parents down with a camera and, you know, do like a little family podcast effectively,

01:11:10   right? And just talk and get stories out of family members while they're still around

01:11:16   to tell the stories, right? I mean, and it is weird and I think that part of, I still

01:11:23   haven't done it, so maybe it's fake praise, but like I know my dad has these fantastic

01:11:31   stories. My dad was absolutely a miscreant student in high school and, you know, cut

01:11:36   class and he just has so many funny stories about him and his buddies figuring out that

01:11:43   they could skip first period and because the teacher never took roll and it was a lot of,

01:11:47   and they always sat in the back. And so they just went out and, you know, got sodas or

01:11:51   goofed around or whatever and then came in to go to second period and ran right into

01:11:56   the principal of the school who, you know, it's a Catholic high school, a nun. And

01:12:04   it was like, he knew that they were like, they all knew the jig was up and that she

01:12:09   knew that they were out, scooping off, skipping class. I should have him on to tell the story,

01:12:15   but to capture those stories and to capture more memories and, you know, and obviously

01:12:20   that's Apple's thinking about it too with this legacy, what is it called? Legacy?

01:12:25   Legacy contact, yeah. Legacy contact. Which you can enable and actually it was like hugely

01:12:30   popular. I did a guide to it last week because, you know, this has been a topic that I've,

01:12:34   and I hit them a little hard last year because they didn't have a feature like this, right?

01:12:39   Google's had a feature like this, Facebook's had a feature like this, all the password

01:12:42   managers have had features like this where you assign somebody and so when you die, that

01:12:47   person you've assigned can then get into your digital data really. And so they finally released

01:12:54   this feature this last week in 15.2 and I did a guide to it and it's been hugely popular.

01:13:00   People have from all over have been emailing just, you know, how do I enable, asking questions

01:13:04   about it all. But yeah, I mean, that similarly to you, this prompted and again, you see in

01:13:10   the documentary me to talk to my mom about how do I record her stories because I don't

01:13:14   necessarily need her to be in a voice bot, but I want to have those recordings.

01:13:19   Right. Yeah, the voice bot thing is sort of a distraction. They capture these memories

01:13:26   and then you can go back and look at them again 10 years after they're gone, 15 years

01:13:30   after they're gone. Your kids can see their grandparents when they're, you know, there's,

01:13:36   and there is clearly a lot of tech moves so fast that there's been a ton of digital rot

01:13:45   over the years. It's sickening. I mean, honestly makes me queasy how many links from

01:13:54   Daring Fireball to other articles and websites over the years that I've been writing Daring

01:13:59   Fireball are now 404s. And that's just like articles about like Mac apps and stuff like

01:14:07   that, right? I mean, it's like how many personal digital photos have been lost because nobody

01:14:12   had the password to the iPhone where they all were.

01:14:16   Exactly. Exactly. And how do you create that on your own, right? Like you don't necessarily

01:14:22   want to just inherit somebody's giant library of photos.

01:14:26   Right.

01:14:27   Right, but

01:14:28   And, you know, and everybody pre-digital had family photo albums or, you know, a lot of

01:14:35   times shoe boxes full of photos waiting to be organized into photo albums and, you know,

01:14:42   maybe whoever was the organizer of the albums runs out of steam at some point. And, you

01:14:46   know, then when they pass and their family comes in, they just find the shoebox of photos,

01:14:50   but there they are. You don't need a password to get into a shoebox of old family vacations

01:14:55   and family Christmases and birthdays and all of that stuff. And you can just sit there

01:15:01   and go through them. I mean, it's, you know, the analog world of a literal shoebox of photos

01:15:07   stinks in so many ways. The cameras were terrible for most consumers. The lighting for anything

01:15:13   taken in the dark, look, you know, it's hard to believe how bad flash photography was at

01:15:20   the time, but the cameras were so slow that they had to use a flash. But they're there

01:15:24   and everybody can look at them.

01:15:27   And like, I mean, it sounds like just things like that can be destroyed, right?

01:15:31   Right.

01:15:32   I mean, fires, floods.

01:15:34   Right.

01:15:35   And I actually did a year ago around this time too, like sort of that similar piece,

01:15:40   which is how do you preserve your family memories from way back when and make them digital?

01:15:46   And then what do you do with the digital ones, right? So I did like even the guide to like

01:15:50   how to use, how to update, you know, if you've got the slides, right, the 35 millimeter slides

01:15:55   and you want to bring those into the digital world, how do you do that? How do you scan

01:15:59   lots of lots of photos to bring those into your digital library now?

01:16:05   It's definitely a project, but it's, to my point with both of these pieces, all of these

01:16:09   pieces is like, we don't think about it. And what got me started thinking about it was

01:16:14   I had some emails from readers about this topic, and then a producer we had hired was

01:16:18   like, "Do you ever think about this topic?" and started digging into it. And turns out,

01:16:23   there's a lot that's happening there. We just don't talk about it enough. And the tech companies

01:16:26   don't talk about it enough because one, it's a weird thing to talk about. And two, as I've

01:16:30   said many times, like, they want to deal with their active users. It's literally how they

01:16:35   make money is the active users. They're not necessarily concerned with the non-active

01:16:39   users.

01:16:40   It is, it's like an inextricable part of human nature that we have a lot of trouble understanding

01:16:48   that we're all going to die. Like, we know that we're all going to die, but you don't

01:16:52   really feel like you're going to die. It's just innately uncomfortable. I think Apple's

01:16:58   done a good job with it from what I've seen. But even their language is a little stilted.

01:17:04   Like you go into settings, password and security, and then there's a section for legacy contact.

01:17:09   A legacy contact, this is how they describe it in iOS 15. A legacy contact is someone

01:17:15   you trust to have access to the data in your account after your death. That's not bad language,

01:17:22   but it's a little cold for Apple. I don't know, but I don't, I often, you know, me,

01:17:29   I have strong opinions on everybody's writing, but I don't know what note to send. You know,

01:17:34   like, usually if I see badly written text in a settings description, I can think of

01:17:40   a better way to say it. I can't think of a better way to say it, except I also don't

01:17:45   think that that's very, it's not encouraging, right? That to me is where it falls short,

01:17:52   is it feels so cold and it acknowledges that you're going to die after your death. I sort

01:18:00   of feel like it should be written in a way that more strongly encourages people to turn

01:18:04   it on.

01:18:05   Yeah, I bet. I want to also like, to me, it's always funny, like who writes these things?

01:18:09   How many lawyers did they have to read it? Right? Like, I'm going to see what I had,

01:18:15   how I can, because my phone is in airplane mode. Also, another thing it should say here,

01:18:21   but it doesn't because I've gotten this email from so many readers, is that you have to

01:18:25   have two-factor on. Now, you should have two-factor on regardless, but it turns out a lot of my

01:18:30   readers don't have two-factor on, so then they email me saying this feature does not

01:18:33   exist in 15.2, to which I have to write them back and say it does, you just have to have

01:18:38   two-factor on.

01:18:39   Yeah, I wonder what the percentage is on that, and I kind of feel like, I don't know, I want

01:18:47   to say my mom has it on and my dad doesn't, and it's one of those things where I should

01:18:54   help them out and, you know, and maybe when I go through this, you know, make sure that

01:18:59   they both have it on.

01:19:00   Yeah. You'll have to.

01:19:01   Yeah, and enable this. It might be, so it's a good prompt both to set this up and a good

01:19:06   prompt to make sure both of my parents have two-factor on. But I'll bet the percentage

01:19:11   of iCloud accounts that don't have it on is staggering. I don't know if I'd say a majority,

01:19:22   but...

01:19:23   I feel like you have to turn it on if you have a watch.

01:19:25   Yeah, there might be. Maybe some little things like that over the years where they've sort

01:19:32   of turned up the temperature on, if you want to use this in conjunction with blank, you

01:19:38   have to have two-factor on.

01:19:39   Like you've got to have it for the TV, I'm pretty sure, too.

01:19:44   And maybe for like AirTags? I don't know.

01:19:46   And I'm pretty sure to use iTunes, like to purchase things.

01:19:49   No, you don't need it for iTunes.

01:19:52   You don't need it for purchasing?

01:19:53   I don't think so, no. But anyway, there it is. And it is, it's, you know, it's interesting.

01:20:02   I'm not surprised you wrote a whole column about it because obviously you have an Emmy

01:20:06   award-winning documentary proving your interest in the subject. I think it was well done.

01:20:11   Yeah, no, and I actually think they probably have seen... So I actually wrote about this

01:20:16   in our newsletter this week, too, which is all of these iOS updates we've been seeing.

01:20:21   And I've seen other people commenting on this over the last couple of months as, you know,

01:20:25   there were the delays on SharePlay and there's been the delays on the ID. And I was sort

01:20:29   of arguing, I wasn't really arguing. I was just saying like, there's good and bad to

01:20:33   these updates lately. The good is that Apple just can release features when they're ready,

01:20:39   right? They don't have to feel forced to just do it all at the beginning of the September

01:20:44   timeframe. And I will also lump in there that I think it's good that sometimes when these

01:20:50   features are not included in the main September release -- I didn't make this point in the

01:20:55   newsletter, but I'm making it now, so this is important for everyone to listen to -- is

01:21:00   that there's more attention to them, right? Because if we were talking about iOS 15 in

01:21:06   the fall, we might not have... We were just glossed over this. But there's more... They

01:21:10   can hit bigger with a certain type of feature. I would say the same thing will happen with

01:21:14   the digital IDs, the digital licenses when that happens next year. And then there's the

01:21:21   downside to all these updates, which is that people get annoyed by updates and they're

01:21:25   like, "Why am I updating again?" And a lot of people said to me on Twitter and stuff

01:21:28   like, "Well, there's automatic updates," but a lot of people don't have that turned on.

01:21:32   And people get frustrated when they're like, "Why did this thing move? Why is there a new

01:21:35   thing?" But yeah, those are my deep thoughts on the dot releases.

01:21:39   Yeah, well, it's like, welcome to software, right? It's like you can buy an old analog

01:21:44   telephone and you're not going to wake up one morning and the buttons have moved around,

01:21:49   right? But it's like... That was actually Steve Jobs' explanation for not putting a

01:21:54   keyboard on the iPhone. Once you put a button on, the button's always there. Software, you

01:21:59   can move it around. And then the downside is obviously a lot of people don't deal well

01:22:05   with change. I'm still, in hindsight, a little blown away at the iOS 7 update with the totally

01:22:16   new look and feel.

01:22:17   You haven't gotten over that?

01:22:19   No, it's not that I haven't gotten over it. It's just, of all the things to change, they

01:22:25   change literally every single way that everything looked in the entire operating system. And

01:22:31   it's like, the Mac OS X has evolved over the years. And if you go from today's version

01:22:38   and look at the first version in 2001 with all the crazy stripes and stuff like that,

01:22:47   obviously there's a lot of change. But it was a classic slow-boiling frog where they

01:22:52   would tweak and modernize the look every few years. There was never a moment... The classic

01:22:58   Mac 2 at Mac OS X was that sort of leap, but it was also not something you were going to

01:23:04   get automatically installed just by updating your Mac. Most of the Macs that were in use

01:23:10   weren't even capable. You had to have a fairly recent Mac to do it. And it was a whole big

01:23:16   process. You knew what you were doing when you upgraded from classic to Mac OS X. You

01:23:22   didn't accidentally click a button.

01:23:25   And I think Apple has been... Maybe it was a learning from 7, right? That was so jarring

01:23:31   to people. But Apple, and now I think Microsoft, have taken real hints from what Apple's done

01:23:37   in the last number of years, which is add these features that change the look and feel,

01:23:44   that change the aesthetic, but don't force them down your throat. A lot of them are optional.

01:23:49   That was the huge thing with iOS 14. You could do the widgets if you want to. You could get

01:23:54   rid of your home page, the app pages if you want to, but you don't have to. And I think

01:24:00   they've done a great job of that. And again, possibly again, why we have more of these

01:24:06   dot releases, because they had to add features like that, make them easier, and other things

01:24:10   fall and slip, and it is what it is. I'm not crying that I can't get my digital ID right

01:24:16   now. I can't get it anyway in New Jersey.

01:24:19   We can't get it here either.

01:24:22   And I think also to that, Microsoft is infamous for not doing it the right way. Windows 8

01:24:30   did not do it the right way. And they've learned, especially with Windows 11 this year, "Hey,

01:24:37   remove this thing. You can do it if you want to. If not, you can put it back into the left

01:24:41   corner if you want to. It's okay." You put things where you want it. And maybe, I mean,

01:24:47   I'm sure someone's going to listen to this and say, "Well, we shouldn't have so much

01:24:51   choice and the company should be able to control more." But I think Apple's sort of the

01:25:00   guiding light on that.

01:25:01   Yeah, and I think that the App Library feature from last year in iOS 14 is a perfect example

01:25:06   of it. I think that it is clearly a better design for a home screen, especially for a

01:25:13   platform where they'll be the first ones to brag about how many apps there are in the

01:25:18   App Store and encouraging people to download and install as many apps as possible. The

01:25:28   App Library that you get—and I think it's set up with, if you don't upgrade your phone,

01:25:33   if you just do a fresh install, you get the App Library by default and you don't get

01:25:38   an endless number of home screens that are, as you go from left to right, are less and

01:25:45   less organized in any sort of fashion. The App Library is definitely a better design.

01:25:53   I love it.

01:25:54   Same. Yeah, and I only have two home screens now.

01:25:57   And I honestly sometimes think about getting rid of the second.

01:26:01   I have three, and the third one is almost empty and it's like new apps that I'm

01:26:09   trying a test flight for or something and I want to get to it a little bit faster than

01:26:14   spotlighting, but it is so much less cluttered than my old home screen. But I think they

01:26:21   were right not to turn it on for people by default and all of your familiar home screens

01:26:26   are gone.

01:26:27   Right, right. And it's the same kind of with widgets. You don't have to do it, but

01:26:35   I don't even think it shows up if you've—you have to know where to find it.

01:26:41   They didn't shove them down your face.

01:26:42   Right? I mean, I think when they do the onboarding, they tell you about it.

01:26:47   Right. Yeah, and they didn't rearrange your first home screen to put a big calendar widget

01:26:51   at the top. It's still just whatever you had on your first home screen before.

01:26:55   Yeah. I mean, my favorite piece—one of my favorite pieces every year I do is the iOS

01:26:59   piece. It's the most helpful to people and I love to be able to just go through and

01:27:05   see what's new and tell people what they—discover these things even though a lot of times people

01:27:11   do it on their own. But it's—yeah. And Jimmy Fallon watched this year, so I was pretty

01:27:16   happy about it.

01:27:17   All right, let me take a break here and thank our third and final sponsor. Oh, I love this

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01:29:33   Bonus round.

01:29:35   Did you see Dieter Bohn's Springboard documentary?

01:29:39   You know, I have not watched the whole thing yet. Every time I go to start to watch it,

01:29:43   I get taken into something else. So I have it. I'm going to watch it in the next week

01:29:48   because I have time to watch something.

01:29:50   All right. That's good. I don't usually spoil upcoming guests on the talk show. I'd

01:29:56   like it to be a surprise when new episodes come out. But I feel like this time I have

01:29:59   to assign homework because communicating with Dieter. And as you know, it's very difficult

01:30:05   for me to schedule.

01:30:06   Yes. Yes.

01:30:07   Schedule one of these. But I am having Dieter on to talk about it. And we'll probably

01:30:15   talk about it longer than the actual documentary because I think it's about half an hour.

01:30:20   But basically it is a—it's Springboard, the secret history of the first real smartphone.

01:30:26   And it's the story of Palm and the Palm Pilot. And it is so good. And as a nerd, I

01:30:34   would love to get the Peter Jackson version of it that's double length. But it does

01:30:40   tell the story. And it's so interesting to me, looking back on time, how things that

01:30:48   in my memory were actually far apart, weren't very far apart at all. Palm just wasn't

01:30:56   even around that long, at least as a serious player. It was like a flash in the pan, in

01:31:02   a sense, right? There's like—because I remember I first got one. I got the Handspring

01:31:07   Visor, which was—and it was another one of these companies that—I always thought

01:31:12   there were a lot of similarities between Palm and Apple. Certainly a similar aesthetic and

01:31:18   a care for attention to detail in user interface design and the clickiness of the buttons.

01:31:27   Handspring was—but also in the '90s, they were like a corporate mess, right? Apple and

01:31:33   Palm. And so Palm was a company, and then the leaders left and licensed the software

01:31:42   and built their own competitor to the software, the Handspring Visor. And that's the first

01:31:47   one I got. I think I got it in 2000. My wife loved it too. And it came in fun colors. I

01:31:54   think I had an orange one and she had a purple one. And so the Palm pilots were like these

01:31:59   sort of grab, drab, gray, sort of Newton-y looking devices with the plastic. Handsprings

01:32:08   were much more fun. They used these colors, had the same great software. If anything,

01:32:13   it was better. They had built-in apps that only came from a Handspring. And they had

01:32:18   a cartridge thing at the top where you could buy additional hardware modules. So it did

01:32:24   not have a built-in phone, but then they came out with a phone attachment. And I, of course,

01:32:31   bought that and it took absolutely terrible, terrible black and white photos. But now I

01:32:39   had a camera with me wherever I was, which was a game changer. Before that, I was an

01:32:45   enthusiastic amateur film photographer, but I didn't have a camera that was with me all

01:32:49   the time that I could put in my pocket. That was a huge game changer.

01:32:52   What was this? Was it like 2000?

01:32:55   Yeah, around that time, you know. And they were still around and then famously, I don't

01:33:00   think I linked to it yet, but one of the outtakes from it, they're famously, Palm was still

01:33:05   around in 2006. And that was when they were playing around with like Windows Mobile instead

01:33:11   of their own OS. And it's like, oh man, this is terrible. Windows Mobile, this thing stinks.

01:33:17   It's just like Windows 95 shrunk down to a phone. Who wants that?

01:33:22   Yeah, because my, I was too young at this point in life to know, but my only recollection

01:33:28   of Palm and Handspring was like a friend of mine in high school's father had one of these.

01:33:35   And like the, then by 2006, I was out of college and a friend of mine, instead of like getting

01:33:43   into the BlackBerry, had a Palm with Windows Mobile, you know, with the stylus. And I thought

01:33:48   that was super cool. But that's like, no, I definitely did not have one of these.

01:33:56   So I don't want to spoil talking about the movie too much because Dieter is going to

01:33:59   be on, but I do want to, I wanted to put in a good word for it here to encourage those

01:34:05   of you who will be listening into subsequent episodes of this show to have watched it already

01:34:10   by the time Dieter comes on so that, you know, we don't spoil it for you.

01:34:14   Well, I'm going to, I'm going to do the same. I'm going to, I'm going to watch it and then

01:34:18   I'm going to listen to the show.

01:34:19   All right. There you go.

01:34:21   Will you post the show by like end of next week? Because I'd love to listen to it when

01:34:26   I'm on my car ride.

01:34:27   I believe, I believe it will be out by the end of next week.

01:34:30   Okay. Thank you for accommodating that for me.

01:34:33   Here, last but not least, I wanted to talk about your interview with Elon Musk at the

01:34:38   Wall Street Journal CEO Council Summit.

01:34:42   This was a thing.

01:34:45   It looked like a very nicely produced conference, a nice big stage. Elon was at the Tesla factory

01:34:53   in Texas coming in remotely on a big screen above you. Was that, how was that? I thought

01:35:02   it was a terrific interview by the way. I'm not just saying it because you're here. I

01:35:06   can't believe it. I mean, I wish I, if I were half as good an interviewer as you might show

01:35:11   these podcasts would be 30 minutes, but I would find it so hard to be I'm on stage as

01:35:18   the interviewer and I'm instantly nervous because I'm on stage in front of an audience, you know,

01:35:25   and I find it hard enough to interview somebody on stage where we're both sitting there looking

01:35:32   at each other and we're four feet apart and we're both talking in front of the same audience.

01:35:38   Like I know, I'm not saying I'm great at it because I don't do it enough, right? Like

01:35:43   a true pro like, you know, Jimmy Fallon or those good people, they interview people in

01:35:49   front of a live audience every single day. So they're really good at the sort of managing

01:35:56   your attention as the host between the guest and the audience. Whereas if I were talking

01:36:02   to a giant 15 foot Elon Musk head on a screen, I feel like I would forget the audiences there.

01:36:10   I mean, so, so many things to say about the setup, but right, like this, what the internet

01:36:17   also doesn't see is like, this is for our CEO council conference, which is one of our

01:36:22   biggest conferences, if not like sort of the biggest conference of the year that we have.

01:36:26   We have a tech conference, we have a couple of others, but like this is our members pay

01:36:30   to be in the CEO council and the Wall Street Journal puts on these special events. And

01:36:34   so we also had like a lineup. Musk was supposed to be the ending of that night. It's like

01:36:40   the opening night, but there were some issues and things got moved around. So he was in

01:36:44   the middle of the lineup. And what I should have said publicly is that we had the CIA

01:36:49   director, William Burns, waiting backstage after that. And I should have just made a

01:36:55   joke because like, you know, it comes off as rude and like the entire internet like,

01:37:00   ate me for it because they're saying, you were so rude to him. He said he would give

01:37:03   you extra time. And I said, well, we have some other people at this conference. And

01:37:07   I should have said, we have the CIA director who I don't want to piss off right now, backstage,

01:37:13   right. And I had in the front row, like my editors and bosses basically being like, you

01:37:18   know, we have to move the show alone, right. And like, I have a timer, like a big thing

01:37:22   in the back. So I had actually pushed because it was supposed to be 30 minutes and I think

01:37:25   it ended up being 38 minutes or something like that. So I extended but like, this needed

01:37:30   an hour. Right, right, right. Like, this needed an hour and he clearly would have given an

01:37:35   hour.

01:37:36   Yeah, he meant it when he said that. I noticed that.

01:37:38   You know, and I actually think he was very engaged. I'd watched the prep I did for this

01:37:44   one, which I do a lot of prep for all of these, but I did like, crazy prep. I also had like

01:37:49   surgery in the beginning of or at the end of November. So I had a lot of extra time

01:37:54   and I just ended up binge watching his interviews from the last two years. And it's hard to

01:37:59   get him sometimes engaged. So like, I was really happy almost instantly like, oh, he's

01:38:04   engaged with this question. He's worked up, he's ready to go. And so, yeah, I mean, and

01:38:11   plus, like, just like, I've got this group of CEOs sitting there, and I'm like, straining

01:38:16   my head to look at the monitor because I don't I don't see him like I don't see him through

01:38:20   like there was no other monitor over the camera. So then there was another camera that I'm

01:38:24   looking at, because like, that's what he sees. Right. Luckily, like I did tell the producers

01:38:30   beforehand, you know, can I just go talk to him in the zoom thing on my computer first?

01:38:35   So just like he knows who I am. And he knows what's happening here. And we know there had

01:38:40   been email chains, but it's not the same as just like, hey, we're about to sit down in

01:38:43   front of a bunch of people. And, you know, I knew it would be millions of people online,

01:38:47   like, you know, and that we got to do but not ideal. Yeah. Like I've been doing with

01:38:53   some of these other interviews, which are video, it's a lot better. Like when I you

01:38:58   know, when I did Craig Federighi, or I did such an Adela a couple months ago. It's like

01:39:03   zoom and it's produced and we tape and then we edit. But this was live, which was great.

01:39:08   I liked that it was live in some ways, but a lot less control over the end product.

01:39:13   I like doing my live interviews too, like once a year. Because it's incredibly nerve

01:39:20   racking. I've said this many times. But there's an energy that you can't replicate.

01:39:26   I think my wife and I like to watch the, you know, the late night talk shows. And we want,

01:39:31   you know, and I think all of the ones that we watched, and we, you know, we'd skip around

01:39:35   through all of them. I think they all did an amazing job coming up with ways to keep

01:39:40   their show going while they were shooting every single night from the hosts house. Right.

01:39:46   It's just Stephen Colbert's desk in his house. Jimmy Fallon had the best time. Yeah. And

01:39:53   he had like a clubhouse and his kids would go down this slide at the end. I think, you

01:39:59   know, but they all had to do that and I appreciate it. But it's like, man, once they got the

01:40:04   live audiences back, it's like, boom, this show, pow, there it is. This is actually better.

01:40:11   Even if you're not there in the audience, there's like a certain, and you know, and

01:40:16   I think COVID made it worse because it was hard. It was somber, right? It's like, it

01:40:21   was this constant reminder that we're still all locked in our houses.

01:40:25   Yeah. No, and for me, like, you know, pre-COVID, I did a lot of stage interviews for the journal

01:40:32   and I was always in person with those people. Right. It was, I did Trevor Noah. I did Michael

01:40:39   Streepfer at Facebook. I've done a bunch of bigger ones and being on stage with that person,

01:40:47   like you get their vibe, you're looking at them, you can make them feel comfortable.

01:40:50   You can bring in the audience, you know, ask like, what's the reaction in some ways. And

01:40:56   then we went to just all Zoom, which was tough. Like you're saying, like, you have to, like,

01:41:01   you don't have the audience, so you have no connection to the people that are watching.

01:41:05   And now we have like this weird hybrid thing sometimes where you're one person's in

01:41:09   person and the other with the audience, and then someone comes in like us getting a sort

01:41:13   of big, big brother way. So I'm just hoping we'll go back to all in person, but I guess

01:41:21   this is not the week to say that.

01:41:22   Yeah, fingers crossed. Let's see. But was it, did you pick up on this or is it just

01:41:32   me and where I noticed it, where after the interview, the initial coverage seemed hyper

01:41:39   focused on a brief section of you and Elon Musk talking about what he would say to President

01:41:47   Biden if he got to give him his advice on the Build Back Better Act, and that the initial

01:41:53   coverage was sort of like, yeah, Elon Musk says he doesn't want the government giving

01:41:58   subsidies to his competitors because he's, you know, his company's ahead and sort of

01:42:04   painting him as a libertarian, selfish billionaire bastard. And in context, I don't think that

01:42:14   was a fair characterization of that segment of the discussion at all.

01:42:19   I don't either, and I don't think that the characterization, which ended up being

01:42:22   what others said about me, which is I'm a liberal, whatever, I don't want to say

01:42:26   words here, that, you know, is in support of this bill, is right either. I mean, I was

01:42:31   just trying to challenge him and keep getting him to explain his thoughts. And frankly,

01:42:36   like, he got there in a really interesting way. Like, he just, like, my favorite quote

01:42:40   is he's just like, "Delete, you know, delete," which is, like, that's the most—he

01:42:47   had spent a little bit of time prior to that, like, winding up about it, and then he just

01:42:50   gets it to the succinct bite, which is like, "No, delete this. Delete it all." Yeah,

01:42:56   I think that, look, the focus is there because he hadn't said anything on this before.

01:43:01   So I think that was why, like, then, yes, I mean, he's a very divisive person, if

01:43:09   not the most divisive person you could interview right now. So I try to remember that when

01:43:14   I keep getting messages from Tesla fans and other Elon Musk fans that say I was rude to

01:43:20   him.

01:43:21   He is. I know, you know, people have compared him to Steve Jobs a gazillion times, and,

01:43:26   you know, they're founders, they're charismatic, they are good interview subjects, they think

01:43:33   about a lot of things, and they both were incredibly accomplished, right? I mean, it's

01:43:40   crazy that Pixar was Steve Jobs' other company sidekick, right? It is kind of nuts that Elon

01:43:48   Musk runs the leading electronic car maker in the country by far. I think he said that

01:43:55   they outsell all other electric vehicles two to one at the moment, or maybe three to one,

01:44:00   I don't know. A spaceship company whose goals are, as he keeps saying, his goals are

01:44:11   like to colonize other planets and put people into outer space to live. It's not just

01:44:17   like, "Oh, we launch a satellite into low Earth orbit," that's what we do. I mean,

01:44:22   the ambitious Starship project has had great success with it. Well, and then—

01:44:30   And then brain implants.

01:44:33   I was not aware of the fact that they had successfully put one into a monkey, and the

01:44:38   monkey could play Pong, you know, the video game Pong telepathically. That's bananas.

01:44:47   And the Neuralink one, I don't think I've looked at—

01:44:51   Is that a joke with the bananas with the monkey? I'm not sure.

01:44:55   But the Neuralink one, I have to admit, I've rolled my eyes out a bit, because it's like,

01:44:59   number one, I'm not going into space. You're not getting me up into outer space. I mean,

01:45:04   maybe by the end of my life, I don't know, but I doubt it. I have no interest in it.

01:45:09   Right. You know what will happen before you go to space? You being put in a Jita Mini

01:45:15   and driven around the town.

01:45:17   But the Neuralink thing, my first reaction is a complete revulsion. And again, not to

01:45:23   get into vaccinations and the politics around vaccinations, but one of the interesting things

01:45:29   that anybody who's been paying attention over the last year with vaccination rates

01:45:35   around the world is that there has always been enormous vaccine hesitancy in the public.

01:45:44   And I also think, my personal theory is that a lot of people are a lot more afraid of needles

01:45:52   than they would let on, because it sounds like you're being a wimp by saying, "I

01:45:56   just don't want to get a shot." But people have an aversion to anything being punctured

01:46:01   through their skin. And evolutionarily, that makes all the sense in the world, right? Like,

01:46:07   up until the last century, anytime you got your skin punctured, you were at serious risk

01:46:14   for an infection that could wind up killing you. And putting something into your brain,

01:46:21   it sounds crazy because nobody's ever done it before. But it's sort of like putting

01:46:27   dead smallpox things into people's arms and all of a sudden they stop getting smallpox

01:46:33   because they have the antibodies. And his explanation about the medical purposes is

01:46:42   that they expect that their first group of human subjects will be people like paraplegics,

01:46:48   quadriplegics, and that maybe it would enable them to walk again. That's really crazy,

01:46:57   you know, in a good way. But it's like, these are all from the same guy, and it's

01:47:01   like, I get it that he pisses people off because, you know, I mean, Steve Jobs pisses people

01:47:07   off. And it's like, I am not an Elon Musk worshiper. But it's like, you have to admit

01:47:12   the guy is being crazy productive.

01:47:17   Yeah. And I mean, that was like sort of my goal with the interview. I mean, thoughts,

01:47:24   you're making me think about my year of interviews in a really smart way. And my goal with this

01:47:30   interview was to really just get him to talk about the projects and where they are and

01:47:37   get him to speak and open up about them. Because it's really when he's the most passionate,

01:47:41   you watch these past interviews with him and he's just, you know, he just like doesn't

01:47:45   want to talk about certain things. Not because he doesn't want to answer, but just like,

01:47:49   you can clearly see he's not passionate about it. Right. And so you want to get him to the

01:47:52   places where he's passionate. And yes, ask some tough questions about it. But, you know,

01:47:58   after a year of interviewing folks from companies that are so telling you the marketing lines,

01:48:07   and you got to really fight to get some answer, to then talk to him who clearly does not care,

01:48:13   you know, there's no press people behind the scenes are trying to tell him what to say,

01:48:18   if they are, they're doing a horrible job. Like, it's just night and day. And it's as

01:48:23   an interviewer so much more interesting and for the audience so much more interesting,

01:48:26   because you're really getting a peek into like, this is this guy's brain. And, you know,

01:48:31   one of the questions I wanted to ask him, and we kind of checked out to his like, how

01:48:34   does he work? But like, you know, how do you do all of this? Because I was trying to get

01:48:38   to like, do you want to keep managing, you know, running Tesla? And he didn't really

01:48:42   tell me much there. But you get a sense of like, this guy, yeah, just like visionary,

01:48:49   and where his mind goes and what he gets excited about. I think the best moment of the whole

01:48:53   thing was when he when I asked him about Starship. And you could tell his response was like,

01:48:59   this is just such a tough project. This is the hardest thing. You know, you could see

01:49:02   he's defeated by it. He's worked up to like, get this done. He wants, you know, he, he

01:49:08   says he spends most of his time thinking about that problem right now. I bet to me that was

01:49:12   that section was the best. And why I let him keep going too, because it was like, tell

01:49:17   me why this is hard. And he's like, well, that's gonna take longer than, you know, 30

01:49:20   seconds and then he pulls out the water bottle and it's like, oh, that's okay. That's okay.

01:49:24   But yeah, in 30 minutes was not enough at the end of the day.

01:49:28   Yeah, he said it was going to require A+ execution across the board in every single way. And

01:49:32   you know that whatever you think of Elon Musk, you know what he considers to be A+ execution

01:49:37   is his highest high levels. I thought another great moment, and I don't even know if it's

01:49:42   true. I don't care if it's true. I actually don't want to look it up because I want it

01:49:46   to be true, was you were talking about his, that segment talking about titles at Tesla.

01:49:54   And he went off on a tangent. He would know he started all these companies, but he, according

01:49:59   to him in US law to start like a C corporation, the only officers you need are a president,

01:50:08   a treasurer, and a secretary. And that the titles like CEO and CFO are all just made

01:50:14   up titles companies give to people with jobs and they aren't like legally mandated. And

01:50:22   the funny part about it, you called it out, is it was at the Wall Street Journal CEO conference.

01:50:27   I, yeah, I mean, everyone in the room laughed, which was good. Oh, I loved that too. I mean,

01:50:36   he's just like, basically screw all titles. And he said, you know, he's techno king at

01:50:41   Tesla.

01:50:42   Yeah.

01:50:43   But CEO is a meaningless title in front of the biggest annual conference of CEOs. I thought

01:50:51   that was pretty funny.

01:50:52   Yeah, it was. I mean, yeah, he was, he was, it was very entertaining and definitely wish,

01:51:01   I hope I get 30 more minutes with him next year or an hour. I did email him to ask him

01:51:06   for an hour next year. So we'll see.

01:51:08   All right, there we go. Well, that about wraps it up for me. That's my full agenda.

01:51:13   I mean, I haven't, I feel like we didn't, we, I mean, I've listened to the shows where

01:51:19   we've talked about MacBooks and stuff, but.

01:51:22   We didn't talk MacBooks. We should do, let's do an extra bonus round here. You've got to

01:51:28   be happy with the new MacBooks, right?

01:51:31   I'm very happy with the new MacBooks. I'm using the 14 inch still, which I, the review

01:51:36   unit and I'm going to pack it up and send it back and decide if I'm going to buy it.

01:51:42   You know, I will say the 14 inch battery life, because I was using the 16 inch for a couple

01:51:46   of weeks, the 14 inch battery life is just no, nowhere near with that 16 inch.

01:51:52   Right. And it's, it's better than any other MacBook you've ever had, but you got used

01:51:57   to something even more.

01:51:59   Well, the 13 inch Pro with M1 is actually longer than this 14 inch, I think, or I did

01:52:08   the battery tests and it was, and even in use now, I think it is longer, but I still

01:52:14   like just love this, everything else about this so much more than the 13 inch. So do

01:52:19   I just go with the 13 inch, which is, I mean, do I just go with the 14 inch, which I think

01:52:23   the answer is yes.

01:52:24   Yeah, that's what I'm, that's what I purchased for myself. That, now that we've lived with

01:52:28   it for a while, what are your thoughts on the notch?

01:52:30   Yeah, I'm so used to it. I did, I did download that Notchmeister.

01:52:35   Yes, it hangs Christmas lights from your notch.

01:52:40   Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. It's, I mean, but I hadn't thought about the notch honestly

01:52:46   till I saw that post on your site. So yeah.

01:52:49   Now I have to add that to the show notes, but free utility from my friends at the icon

01:52:58   factory led by Craig Hockenberry.

01:53:01   No, the notch does not bother me. Does it bother you? I mean, I, you know, they'll get

01:53:06   rid of it at some point and it's gonna be gone and we'll never, you know, people will

01:53:10   remember the notch version.

01:53:13   I wasn't bothered right from the get go. Like, and it's interesting. I don't think I, I don't

01:53:16   think I put this in my review cause I felt like I didn't want to, with that time crunch

01:53:22   of trying to hit the embargo and you've only got six days and maybe it's more like five

01:53:28   and a half days cause you got to wait for FedEx to show up now cause you can't just

01:53:32   leave the event with the review unit in your hand. I didn't want to make a long-term impression

01:53:39   of it, but basically it took me a lot longer to get used to the iPhone notch back when

01:53:46   the iPhone 10 came out and that annoyed me longer and I just thought, man, this is, I

01:53:52   don't know, wouldn't this just be better to, even if it doesn't go edge to edge, to just

01:53:56   make the black part at the top just go all the way across. And eventually, you know,

01:54:02   I turned around on it and I don't really see it anymore and I kind of like the way they

01:54:06   squeeze stuff like the time and the cellular signal up there and the ears, whatever you

01:54:11   want to call them next to the notch. With the MacBook one, I felt like the menu bar

01:54:16   is the perfect place for something like that. It's, you know, are there a couple of apps

01:54:21   like Xcode where the menus are so, there's so many menus that they stretch across the

01:54:26   notch? Yeah, but it's kind of fun the way your mouse just like teleports across it as

01:54:30   you're dragging across the menu bar. Like, you know, I'm fine with it. I love the computers.

01:54:37   Yeah, no, I mean, same here. I just got to pull the trigger and buy it. But the, yeah,

01:54:46   the other thing is, and we messaged about this a couple months back, is now, you know,

01:54:53   I used the iMac for a while and I got really used to that iMac display, the 21-inch iMac.

01:55:00   Or no, 24-inch.

01:55:01   Yeah, sorry, the 24-inch iMac. And I, you know, sent that back, but I miss it. Like,

01:55:08   I miss that display and I miss the setup of that. And so I just really want Apple to make

01:55:14   that monitor.

01:55:15   Yeah. There's a rumor last week that came out of LG, I forget who, you know, one of

01:55:21   these rumor experts on Twitter, but basically it's claiming that LG is working on like

01:55:26   at least three upcoming monitors. And it's unclear, like one of them almost certainly

01:55:34   is for the bigger iMac. And there's another one that they're going to update the $5,000

01:55:43   Pro Display XDR and it's going to have a built-in iOS computer in the back for some

01:55:47   reason. But just if that third one is just a standalone desktop monitor that you could

01:55:54   plug your MacBook into?

01:55:56   I would be so happy.

01:55:57   I don't even care. I used to have stronger pins, like, oh, I hope it's at least 27

01:56:01   inches. I don't care. Just give me the 24-inch one from the iMac. Just something, though,

01:56:06   where I could get an Apple quality display.

01:56:10   And just like the design of it. Like, I went back to my LG monitor, speaking of LG, I have

01:56:14   a nice LG 4K monitor and I set it all up. You know, I've got the mouse and the keyboard

01:56:18   and everything. It's just not the same.

01:56:19   Yeah. And I'm at that point now.

01:56:21   And I got, you know, on that, I got used to the chin, right? Like, I think actually on

01:56:24   the last, when I was on here last, we talked about the chin. And I was like, oh, it's

01:56:29   so ugly. But I got used to it. That's like, okay. Like, I definitely got, I was more bothered

01:56:33   by the chin on that iMac than I was by the notch on the MacBook.

01:56:37   Ah, I guess I was too. I got the orange one. What color iMac did you have?

01:56:42   Blue.

01:56:43   Blue. I remember that from your video.

01:56:46   Remember and I was like, yeah, it's like reminding me of like baby blue. You know, like

01:56:50   you get like the blue stuff for your baby is you have a boy and everyone gets you blue

01:56:54   stuff and it's like,

01:56:55   Yeah. When it first came out and I was using it, the chin, I didn't hate it, but I thought

01:57:01   it was distracting. I thought I was sort of one foot in the camp of, I would like to see,

01:57:08   I mean, surely they made prototypes without the chin that were slightly thicker to accommodate

01:57:15   the stuff that they wound up putting in the chin. And it's like, boy, I'd sure like to

01:57:19   see one of those and, ah, no, I think they made the right decision. And I think it shows

01:57:24   how many times internal to Apple they iterate and iterate and use these things. And if they

01:57:30   realize the notch is okay on the phone and on the MacBook, they can realize in that design

01:57:37   lab that the chin is fine.

01:57:41   Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I want that monitor. That's my big, like Apple did a lot this year

01:57:47   on Macs. I'm not going to complain. They did some great stuff, but that's what I want to

01:57:52   see next year.

01:57:53   Yeah. Something that you could just,

01:57:55   2022, give me the monitor.

01:57:57   Yeah. Some kind of Insta-buy, just take my money and get me this display.

01:58:02   Yeah. And like, you know, we'll have all the docking stuff. Like it'll be the Thunderbolt

01:58:06   of whatever that year was. It will be of the 2022.

01:58:09   Right.

01:58:10   Give me the Thunderbolt display for 2022.

01:58:13   Exactly. Well, anyway, thank you for being here. I always appreciate your time. Have

01:58:17   a good holiday season, the new year and everything like that. Best to the family. And let me

01:58:23   Same to you. I look forward to hearing a bit from your booker for my next episode.

01:58:29   And let me

01:58:30   Where I will be the host.

01:58:31   And let me thank our sponsors. Are you going to do the sponsor reads?

01:58:35   No, I can't do the sponsor reads.

01:58:37   Yeah, see, you can't do the sponsor reads. I'll have to break in. I'll have to do them

01:58:41   in post.

01:58:42   That's true.

01:58:43   All right. Memberful, where you can monetize your passion with membership. Revenue Cat.

01:58:51   Oh, man, where they make it easy to build and manage in-app purchases and subscriptions

01:58:55   on iOS, Android and the web. And last but not least, Linode, the web host and server

01:59:03   infrastructure that I use to host during Fireball. My thanks to all three.

01:59:07   [ Silence ]