The Talk Show

106: ‘Star Wars Holiday Spectacular’ With Guests John Siracusa and Guy English


00:00:00   [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:00:03   So I don't know how well this is going to work.

00:00:18   When's the last time I've had more than one person

00:00:20   on the show?

00:00:20   Probably when I was on stage at WWDC.

00:00:23   It'll work out fine.

00:00:24   You'll see.

00:00:24   We're doing a couple for 10 people.

00:00:26   It'll be fine.

00:00:27   Yeah, that's what I thought.

00:00:27   Yeah, and John and I have talked enough before.

00:00:29   We get the gist in my basic gist though is let's shoot the shit on Star Wars for two hours

00:00:36   Movies so you know what's funny before you before you said this side

00:00:39   I wanted to tell you to do the Christmas spectacular again this year except then actually have a guest I thought about

00:00:46   we

00:00:48   And it's actually to screw people and it's actually Syracuse it well. That's what it is here

00:00:53   we are making up for last year where it was a total sham and

00:00:56   I got a

00:00:58   surprising amount of email from people who told me that in that we must have screwed up the editing because we cut it off before

00:01:04   John or Marco made it. Well, I mean they were a little bit in the back

00:01:07   They weren't really ready for the stage right now

00:01:09   Poor molt

00:01:13   His wife had to drive from home and that was not a pretty scene

00:01:17   So have you guys done John you're on the the incomparable

00:01:24   frequently frequently semi-frequently pretty frequently have you done Star Wars on the incomparable

00:01:29   You obviously don't listen to the show. I don't listen to anybody shows. Yeah. No, I we have done

00:01:35   all of the Star Wars movies the original Star Wars movies and

00:01:40   We've done episode 1 & 2 for the prequels and we did but the Star Wars holiday special

00:01:46   Well, see I've never seen that guy. Have you seen the Star Wars holiday special?

00:01:52   No, and I don't want to yeah, especially after listening to the uncomfortable. I don't watch it. Don't don't watch yeah

00:01:57   I I feel exactly the same way you did John like you were

00:02:00   You sort of took one for the team there and now to watch it

00:02:03   Yeah

00:02:03   if I can if I can possibly avoid this is Jason's revenge for me making him watch like hours and hours of anime and

00:02:08   play video games

00:02:11   special a couple of years ago one of the sites published a

00:02:14   like

00:02:17   What do they call him now explainers?

00:02:18   You know like this concept of an explainer which I kind of like it's sort of like a blog post

00:02:23   crossed with like a Wikipedia entry

00:02:27   Here's an exercise try to think of pretend the word explainer doesn't exist and then try to think of another phrase or

00:02:34   Summary or description of what we now know as an explainer

00:02:38   Because whenever I do it I come out with something that's insulting

00:02:44   What would it be? I'm not sure. I don't know. It's like I mean I'm falling back on like the four dummies things or whatever

00:02:49   Let me simplify this to the point where it seems understandable

00:02:54   But what you're actually coming away from the article with is not a true understanding of the subject because it's really complicated

00:03:00   Let me do it take a complicated thing and make it really simple

00:03:02   Let me like it just I don't know explainers. I

00:03:06   Understand why you but some people are attracted to the concept but the actual articles I've read that are described as explainers

00:03:13   just leave me angry. Yeah, like overview, maybe it's a good summary, executive summary overview,

00:03:20   like it's not much. I don't know, like whenever I read something that's described as an explainer,

00:03:25   it's just like, you know, because no one like if there's an article in the Atlantic or something,

00:03:29   nobody calls it an explainer. Like an article is supposed to explain things once you call it an

00:03:33   explainer. That's like code for, oh, we're not actually going to get the real anyway,

00:03:38   I'm unreasonably angry about explainer gone. I interrupt.

00:03:40   Yeah, well, I remember I'd one that I remember that I appreciated was a one from Vox calm on I

00:03:47   Don't know if it was Benghazi or or one of these things where it it seemed like I would have had to read

00:03:53   20 articles to catch up and it didn't make any sense and I read their

00:03:58   quote-unquote explainer and it kind of figure I

00:04:01   Figured the whole thing out because you know in the gist of the explainer there like this is really nothing

00:04:07   It's really just political with you see well

00:04:09   they just did us call that the news that you would watch and it would tell you a summary of what's going on and

00:04:14   Well, anyway, somebody wrote an explainer on the Star Wars holiday special and they had a just enough screen caps where I was like

00:04:21   Holy cow, it really is worse than the terrible reputation would have you believe and so I knew I never had to watch it

00:04:27   Yeah, and not only that as I said in the uncomfortable thing

00:04:30   It's not even the type of thing if you care about Star Wars at all that you can watch and be like haha laugh at

00:04:35   It's so bad. You know what I mean. You can't even do that. It's just it's just bad. It just it's not fun

00:04:40   It's not interesting and if you care about Star Wars, it will hurt you and it was shot on video

00:04:45   It's so bad how shot is the least of its problems so we're having a holiday special

00:04:51   We're talking about Star Wars, but it has nothing to do with the star ways Star Wars holiday

00:04:55   Spectacular or whatever they called it

00:05:00   Not yet at least.

00:05:02   Alright, and also I only want to talk about the movies.

00:05:05   The whole expanded universe thing is a pile of crap as far as I'm concerned.

00:05:09   Yeah, I don't mind the cartoons as much but I don't.

00:05:12   They're a different thing. You know what I mean? Like if the movies are like a good steak dinner,

00:05:17   they're kind of like a beef jerky that you'd buy at a corner store.

00:05:19   You know what I mean? They're meat, but you know, not really the same kind of thing.

00:05:25   Have you watched all of the cartoons, Clone Wars and now the Star Wars Rebels?

00:05:30   I have and there's some there's some things to commend them to some Star Wars II stuff, but I

00:05:35   I don't see how they could possibly fit into the to the story that the movies are telling in any sensible way

00:05:42   I mean, I actually feel the same way about the prequels

00:05:45   So, you know, but it's you know, every now and then they light up a lightsaber and fun stuff happens

00:05:50   There's spin-offs in the traditional sense where it's like, alright

00:05:54   We'll make a TV show out of the movies and it's in the same universe and it's more or less fits in the same timeline

00:05:59   But there's no specific expectation that they feel or behave exactly like the movie because they're not.

00:06:06   They're an animated television show as opposed to movies.

00:06:10   And for what they are, they're actually pretty decent.

00:06:13   Wasn't the original premise for Star Wars Rebels, though, that it would be live action?

00:06:17   There was talk of a live action Star Wars TV series a very long time ago.

00:06:24   Around about the time I think the prequels were either in the process of being made or before they were made.

00:06:28   And that seemed to fall by the wayside it just didn't it didn't didn't work out for whatever reason

00:06:33   I forget what the actual situation was and more recently I've heard the idea of it coming back up again

00:06:39   I'm not opposed to such a thing. I think it would be cool, but

00:06:42   Clone Wars the the computer animated one was kind of weird because there was another

00:06:48   Animated thing called the Clone Wars that was cell animated as opposed to CG

00:06:54   Which was great.

00:06:55   Yeah, it was very interesting.

00:06:57   All of them very different stylistic choices than the movie.

00:07:00   Wait, when was this?

00:07:03   Around about the time of the prequels, around about the time of maybe I guess episode two

00:07:06   or something.

00:07:07   It was cell animated.

00:07:08   It was before episode two.

00:07:10   Very stylized, kind of looked like Samurai Jack.

00:07:12   I don't know if it was the same guy.

00:07:13   It was the same guy.

00:07:15   And it was great.

00:07:16   And you know what?

00:07:19   It ends with the opening scene from episode two.

00:07:24   The end of that arc, of that animation arc, ends with the invasion of, or the assault

00:07:28   on Coruscant from the bad kids.

00:07:32   Grievous's army.

00:07:33   Grievous's army.

00:07:34   Yeah, it shows up and they kidnap the chancellor.

00:07:38   That's the final episode.

00:07:39   Is it in the cel-shaded one or the CG one where you learn why General Grievous is all

00:07:43   wheezy and everything?

00:07:44   It's the shell shaded.

00:07:46   Oh yeah, keep trying.

00:07:48   Cell shaded.

00:07:49   So are these things about...

00:07:50   How come I'm not aware of this?

00:07:51   How could that possibly be?

00:07:52   Your kids are kind of the right age. I don't know the cel-shaded one. I don't I don't think Jonas was born yet

00:07:57   But I saw that it wasn't it certainly wasn't as big as the clone but Clone Wars my son watching. What was it called?

00:08:03   Clone Wars. Yeah, that's the problem. They're both called

00:08:06   And I think well, here's the thing. I think you actually had to be a bit of an animation nerd to get into it

00:08:11   Or to hear about it

00:08:13   That's right. Like how did you hear about it John?

00:08:15   From when those quicktime movies came but that's how I

00:08:19   Do you think I'm gonna be able to get these on iTunes or something? I doubt it

00:08:23   I would have found it by now right the CG Clone Wars has got to be available. Oh, yeah CG is I've

00:08:28   Seen I I I to him. I'm completely caught up. I've seen every episode of the Clone Wars

00:08:33   I saw the theatrical release which is really just a two-hour episode of the movie or the TV show

00:08:40   And just recently caught up Jonas and I caught up on the I guess I think there's only seven episodes so far as Star Wars rebels

00:08:46   right? Yeah, I believe so. Well if that's the case then I'm caught up.

00:08:49   I like the way that the Rebels TV show is doesn't feature any of the characters from the feature

00:08:56   films. Yeah but it's very clearly in the world and it's creeping up on a new hope timeline so

00:09:01   you start seeing TIE fighters look like TIE fighters and you know the kind of rebels in the

00:09:06   Empire in more or less the shapes that you would have expected but you know it's a totally different

00:09:11   thing it's a you know different cast of characters doing different things within the same universe.

00:09:15   There's a bit of a weirdness in that there are Jedis running around.

00:09:23   Whereas as of New Hope, we know that there's, well, at least Yoda believes that there's

00:09:26   no other Jedis.

00:09:28   In hiding.

00:09:29   I mean, you're gonna have a Star Wars show, it's a good idea to have some Jedis and some

00:09:33   lightsabers in it.

00:09:34   Oh yeah, in terms of the narrative device, yes, for sure.

00:09:36   But I mean, it kind of goes against what we heard of Luke being the last Jedi, right?

00:09:41   Yeah, that's what Yoda says on his deathbed.

00:09:43   or no wait is it Empire or is it return of the Jedi when he's dying it might be return of the Jedi when he's

00:09:48   dying and he says something to the effect of

00:09:50   You know in ten seconds from now when I die he laughs last of the Jedi you will be

00:09:55   He'll ask the it'll be the last accredited

00:09:59   So I there's something new that I

00:10:07   Have to learn but to see I don't know my way around the the underground internet

00:10:12   So I don't know how I'm gonna get these cell-animated. Yeah, let's try made it once it there

00:10:16   So I said I haven't been quicktime movies. They're probably like 320 by 200. I know

00:10:21   postage stamps, you know, like what cook time used to look like I remember when that was the big size I remember when 160 by

00:10:27   Yeah

00:10:29   120 was the was the regular so it's cinepak compression is high fidelity though. So to look great

00:10:33   Well, I'm surprised though that that didn't wasn't like a bigger deal

00:10:41   well anyway, and what I understand is with the Disney purchase of Lucasfilm and the

00:10:45   Archive and I talked mentioned this with Weskis a couple weeks ago that they're they're more or less saying with this movie all those

00:10:52   Novels and shit that you've been reading for 20 years. That's all out the door. We're not looking at any of that and

00:10:57   You know, none of that's canon anymore

00:11:00   Yeah

00:11:01   They have to do that because if they're gonna make it chronologically after return of the Jedi the expanded universe has like told all those

00:11:06   Stories like 20 times over like we know what happens to all the characters that we love and there's two whole other bad guys and

00:11:11   Good guys and like they just rung it out

00:11:14   So if you can't put anything chronologically after jai unless you either do exactly what happened in the books

00:11:18   Which would probably be a bad idea or put it way way way past where the books go or something and then say okay

00:11:24   It's the distant distant, you know, it's way past. So and it was always called expanded universe

00:11:29   So I think this is the only possible way to make a movie with the original actors. You just gotta say forget about the books

00:11:36   Yeah, I read I think there's a there's a problem with fetishizing the cannon right like it's gonna hamstring your story

00:11:42   Just go tell good movie stories and just don't worry about the rest

00:11:45   Doesn't mean you can't meet those books and have fun, but you know you don't need them to be in the exact same

00:11:51   canonical universe really

00:11:54   Yeah, and I only read the first of those books the first one with the Grand Admiral Timothy's on yeah

00:12:02   It was and it was so bad that you know, it it kept me from ever reading anymore

00:12:07   But I at least am enough aware of what happened that it and one and I you know

00:12:12   I saw the headlines that in one of the novels Chewbacca gets killed and you know

00:12:16   There's no way they're not bringing Chewbacca back in the new movie

00:12:19   No, everyone dies eventually

00:12:22   Yeah, but if they're gonna kill him they're gonna kill him in the movie. They're not gonna they're not gonna just say well sure bist Chewbacca

00:12:30   Like they did in like they did in last crusade where they just kind of panned over to a picture of Sean Connery on on his

00:12:37   desk

00:12:38   Yeah, because they couldn't get him to do the movie

00:12:40   You mean indie for Oh indie for any for?

00:12:43   What

00:12:48   I always

00:12:50   I like to pretend that that movie didn't happen. Yeah, it didn't happen. I don't know it

00:12:56   Happened in the same screwed up universe at the prequels. Well, so episode 7 potentially

00:13:01   is in the same kind of danger zone because everyone was excited about in d4 for a long time and they couldn't get the

00:13:07   Principles together to do it by the time they did Harrison Ford was really old and it was like hmm

00:13:12   You know, I don't know if they can pull this off. So here we have

00:13:14   It works out a little bit better here because I think

00:13:17   Chronologically speaking everyone is more comfortable with the actors being the age. They're supposed to be in episode 7

00:13:22   It's like how many years of passing the Jedi?

00:13:24   Well, that's exactly how much older you're supposed to be. So you're fine. We don't need any makeup

00:13:27   This is what you look like when you're this age fine

00:13:29   and and the other thing too it can the same point is there's clearly gonna be a cast of

00:13:37   20 to 30 something heroes and villains who will be in major roles to do that sort of

00:13:45   Running and jumping and falling stuff that you need who are not Shia LaBeouf

00:13:51   Right right so that the you know the classic characters can all sort of take on the roles of like obi-wan's and grand Moff Tarkin's and

00:13:58   Just be there be there that fear though like when they said I guess what everybody's coming back

00:14:03   It's like oh geez everybody's coming back, and you start to worry that like it's going to be like their last hurrah

00:14:09   And yeah, they'll be these young actors

00:14:11   But like it'll be a movie for the oldsters, and they'll transition to the youngsters during the movie

00:14:16   That that was the fear like you're gonna make us old guys run around for as long as you've got them

00:14:20   and you'll kill some of them off or they'll kind of you know pass the baton and the next movie will

00:14:25   be really about the youngsters but like what they like what they did with obi-wan in uh the phantom

00:14:30   menace yeah kind of i mean like well it it's like you're we're going to introduce um what's going to

00:14:36   be one of the flagship characters of the whole six movie series obi-wan kenobi and then we'll just

00:14:41   spend the entire middle hour of the movie with him waiting on a spaceship in the desert yeah or like

00:14:48   I mean, you just didn't know who the-- because we know so little about-- at least I know

00:14:51   so little about the movie because I've been avoiding spoilers-- that just based on the

00:14:54   casting alone, you say, "Well, given this cast, I can make a movie mostly about the

00:14:58   old people and about the idea of, like, now they're past their prime and they're passing

00:15:01   the baton on to a new generation, but this is their, like, one last heist or whatever,"

00:15:05   you know, if you want to use another movie cliche.

00:15:08   Or you could do a movie entirely about the young people, and these guys are just in supporting

00:15:12   roles and there are brief glimpses of them or whatever.

00:15:15   I still don't know what kind of movie it's gonna be, but based on the trailer, there's

00:15:18   no old faces in the trailer at all.

00:15:19   So there's a clear signal right out of the gate that says, "I know we've got all these

00:15:22   great people, but this is a movie about these youngsters, and here they all are on the trailer,

00:15:27   and we're not even gonna show you any of the other people."

00:15:29   Yeah, who's flying the Falcon?

00:15:31   Yeah, somebody.

00:15:32   Well, I'm gonna...

00:15:33   Somebody.

00:15:34   Good answer.

00:15:35   It's gotta be either Han or Lando, right?

00:15:37   Chewie flies the Falcon.

00:15:39   Han just gives orders.

00:15:41   I don't know.

00:15:43   Fly casual.

00:15:44   It's a great line.

00:15:48   Yeah, so I mean, starting out with our anticipation of The Force Awakens is as good a place as

00:15:55   any, because it's really what motivated me to do the show, you know, to get me excited

00:15:58   about Star Wars again, too.

00:16:00   And the severe letdown.

00:16:05   I would describe Indy 4 as more of a letdown than even The Phantom Menace.

00:16:10   I would not disagree.

00:16:12   I disagree.

00:16:13   Yeah.

00:16:14   You would not disagree?

00:16:14   You think anything's moving?

00:16:15   - I would not disagree.

00:16:16   No, episode one is the biggest cinematic disappointment

00:16:21   of our generation because of just the massive anticipation.

00:16:26   And like, it was promised, it was foretold, right?

00:16:31   We wanted to know what happened in this whole, you know,

00:16:33   how did Anakin turn into Darth Vader?

00:16:36   What's the whole deal?

00:16:37   You know, like we wanted to know.

00:16:38   We were promised like a nine movie arc

00:16:40   in the fan magazines for so long.

00:16:42   And we waited and waited.

00:16:43   Whereas Indy 4 was like, I suppose they can make another Indy movie, but if they never make another one

00:16:47   I feel satisfied that the arc of Indy, you know, he had three good movies

00:16:51   Well, two good movies and another movie that was okay

00:16:54   And that's fine. Like you weren't aching to know something that has been

00:16:58   Talked about or alluded to for the entire run of the series

00:17:02   So whether or not they made another Indy 4 you wouldn't satisfied with Star Wars was just massively anticipated with a huge gap in between

00:17:08   And the disappointment I think was even more crushing because I've only seen Indy 4 once but

00:17:13   But my recollection is it was not as incompetently made as Phantom Menace.

00:17:18   It's like the Johnny Dangerously joke.

00:17:20   I saw Nd4 once.

00:17:22   Once.

00:17:23   Once.

00:17:24   God, we're all making that joke.

00:17:26   So you and Whiskers were talking about excitement about the new Bond or the new Star Wars.

00:17:33   And hands down, it's gotta be the new Star Wars.

00:17:35   Yeah, for next year.

00:17:36   As much as I like Bond.

00:17:37   But I mean, come on.

00:17:38   Like, new Star Wars?

00:17:39   There's what, 25 Bonds now?

00:17:41   Yeah, the Bond has the out that it's like, "Alright, there's gonna be some bad Bond movies,

00:17:45   there's gonna be some good ones, we're currently in an upswing because everyone loves Daniel Craig."

00:17:49   And like, no matter how big a Bond fan you are, you're like, "Well, this is a bad Bond, but I'll wait."

00:17:53   Like, it's evergreen, in the same way we were just mentioning Zelda before,

00:17:57   in the same way that the Zelda franchise is.

00:17:58   You're like, "Well, I don't like this Bond, I like it different."

00:18:00   You don't have to worry about continuity, you don't have to worry about actors aging out,

00:18:04   they'll just-- or like Doctor Who, they'll just rotate in a new guy,

00:18:06   there'll be ups and downs and it's fine.

00:18:08   Whereas Star Wars is a defined continuity in story with specific actors playing specific characters that doesn't have that out

00:18:14   So it's like it's got oh, it's got a count. You don't get a million shots. Well, even if specter ends up stinking

00:18:19   We would get just as excited next time when whatever they cast is just over

00:18:24   Yeah, like it would just be reset you like any expectations would be fine like oh cool another new one

00:18:29   Yeah, I think it's safe to say I think I forget exactly when Goldeneye came out

00:18:33   But I would say in the last 20 years we've had four pretty good Bond movies

00:18:37   We've had GoldenEye and then the three Daniel Craig ones. So in 20 years, we've already we've got four good ones under our belt

00:18:43   So it does a dud, you know next year wouldn't weigh us down. Yeah, like a swing and a miss is not weird

00:18:49   I don't understand your attraction to GoldenEye, but I'm willing to concede that we've had a

00:18:53   Pretty good set of Bond movies sprinkled throughout the bad ones and even the bad ones are like well, whatever, you know, right?

00:19:01   Yeah, I don't love gold Star Wars on the other hand. We're drawing in. Yeah. Yeah

00:19:07   Well, but I do think the long term, and this is another reason I thought to convene this,

00:19:13   and you know, I've done specials on Bond back in the day with Dan, and now we're doing Star

00:19:18   Wars.

00:19:19   I do think though that ultimately, like 20, 25 years from now, we'll look back at Star

00:19:23   Wars as a sort of Bond-like franchise where I think we're going to see an endless series

00:19:29   of trilogies.

00:19:30   Well, we hope so, because when it was tied up in Lucas, like Lucas is the one who waited

00:19:34   16 years or whatever to give us episode 1 and it was all because he controlled everything no

00:19:39   I'm not gonna say no cooperation would ever have waited that long because it'd be like you're sitting on this cash cow

00:19:44   What are you doing right?

00:19:46   And turning it into a franchise frees it from the constraints and I suppose by the time this new trilogy is over

00:19:53   We'll also free it from the constraints of those characters that we know and love because they'll all be too old or dead

00:19:58   Certainly the actors will and then you're free to do whatever you want within this universe

00:20:02   Which you could have done all along but because Lucas didn't want to do that that never happened, right?

00:20:06   so I have I have a weird take on that maybe that I

00:20:10   So I obviously love the universe

00:20:14   I like stories being told in the universe

00:20:16   but I'm kind of of the opinion that the universe exists in order to tell us like the you know, the

00:20:22   Vader redemption story and the Luke becomes a hero story and

00:20:26   While it's fun to go play in that playground, I don't know if

00:20:32   I don't know if the value of the universe is worth it.

00:20:37   Like maybe you can have another universe

00:20:42   to tell other interesting stories.

00:20:43   Do you know what I mean?

00:20:44   Like it seems like just because you've got this well-defined

00:20:47   sort of universe that's being laid out

00:20:49   to tell this particular story,

00:20:51   the fact that you can shoehorn other stories into it

00:20:53   is cool, but maybe not the best use

00:20:58   of your storytelling skills.

00:20:59   - It's not really shoehorning.

00:21:01   It's kind of like in the Star Trek universe where like the story of Captain Kirk and the

00:21:05   Enterprise is one story and but what you're left with when you're done with that story

00:21:10   or you set it aside is essentially a sci-fi a fleshed out sci-fi universe with a built-in

00:21:15   audience and it's really just an excuse to make sci-fi movies like I'm looking for anything

00:21:20   that will that will let sci-fi movies be made where they don't have to be constrained by

00:21:25   world building because everyone understands the Star Trek universe that's why I mean they

00:21:29   it for TV, you know, Deep Space Nine and all the next generation. It's like next generation

00:21:33   is not Captain Kirk again, right? But it is the Enterprise or whatever and all the way

00:21:37   over to, you know, the, the more, you know, Voyager and stuff like that. I mean, I'm not

00:21:41   saying that those are all great examples of what you can do. But the idea is once you

00:21:44   have an established sci fi universe, you can do lots of interesting sci fi things in it.

00:21:49   And I want to see more sci fi. I think there's not enough of it. And every time someone wants

00:21:53   to do something sci fi ish, they are faced with the problem of I have to describe the

00:21:58   the sci-fi world before I can even tell my story.

00:22:00   Yeah, you spend 30 minutes establishing the world.

00:22:04   30 minutes if you're lucky sometimes to spend the whole movie doing it.

00:22:07   I think what you need is exactly what you said, Guy, but it lets the writer just concentrate

00:22:12   on just give us a handful of really interesting protagonists and antagonists who have an arc,

00:22:21   you know, and then you have a world to put them in immediately.

00:22:24   But give them a different, you know, just give them, give us somebody, don't give us

00:22:27   a new version of Vader for God's sake don't just you know yeah in a way it's

00:22:31   like yeah like all of these superhero movies sort of fault because they end up

00:22:35   telling the origin story over and over again well that's because they don't

00:22:39   have a universe they have like each if superheroes universe in and up to itself

00:22:42   it's not like we've established universe now we can just tell stories it's like

00:22:44   well I have a new character who the heck is Iron Man well I've got to tell you

00:22:48   Iron Man is no new Captain America wait a second who is Captain America each

00:22:51   character is a universe the universe they're in is just normal there's

00:22:55   nothing about like, whereas the Star Wars universe, the Star Trek universe, you have rules about like, how do people get from place to place? How is the system of government organized? How do the alien races get along roughly? And the beauty of Star Wars is that these stories, the original story that's told within the universe, so many things are hinted at and touched on, that may be interesting that are already there. Like you just want to have an entire story about the, you know,

00:23:19   Yeah, yeah, what happened to Nord Bandale?

00:23:21   Yeah, I actually really want to find out like and and you can take that you can end up with like I'm gonna do a bounty

00:23:26   Hunter story not Boba Fett

00:23:27   Maybe something else if you're lucky and you give this to the right people you can end up with a new mini franchise where say there's

00:23:32   Some bounty hunter that uses a very charismatic actor that becomes like a cross between

00:23:36   Indiana Jones and Han Solo but in the Star Wars universe and

00:23:40   They get a series of movies and like you don't never know which one is gonna hit in the same way

00:23:44   You never know which one of these the superhero movies is gonna hit but there's lots of things that have been touched upon

00:23:49   They could say, "Oh, we could try that as a movie."

00:23:51   And the stakes are low.

00:23:52   You're like, "Well, this is mostly going to be...

00:23:54   You can make a Star Wars heist movie, or you can make a sort of...

00:24:01   Like the Clone Wars did a lot, like a Rebel Academy type movie, where it's more like Top

00:24:04   Gun and they're jockeying to be the best X-wing pilot.

00:24:07   So many movies you can make in this universe with things that are already established that

00:24:11   can just be plain old science fiction space movies.

00:24:13   Right.

00:24:14   Okay.

00:24:15   Yeah.

00:24:16   I feel better about it now.

00:24:17   Yeah.

00:24:18   protagonist bounty hunter is a little bit more like a

00:24:20   Privateer well like a real bounty hunter though who's looking to bring people in alive not never really an assassin

00:24:27   You know, it's let's face it would like Boba Fett

00:24:29   Some of the other like those guys no no disintegration, right?

00:24:33   Who's maybe like Han, you know or like like Indy the way that Indy kept losing out to Belloq everything

00:24:39   He went for Belloq at first like a guy who's you you want to root for because he's you know, he's not evil

00:24:45   He just you know, he's just a bit of a rogue, but he keeps losing out to IG 88 or something like that

00:24:49   And IG 88 keeps disintegrating it's his bounty

00:24:54   Yeah, I mean they are doing like so then you have the three

00:24:57   Episode seven eight and nine that they're doing right and there's also going to be

00:25:01   Stand-alone movies and dispersed to them in my understanding and the standalone movies will feature

00:25:05   You know one of them will feature like Boba Fett and one of them, you know with the well-known characters

00:25:09   But that's trying starting to establish the cadence of like art. There's a trilogy

00:25:13   There's an arc here for these three movies that's gonna be a main story

00:25:16   But then we're gonna start having these standalones to get people used to the idea and I bet you if any one of those standalones like

00:25:22   Really catches like oh that standalone

00:25:24   You know those characters that set or that conflict or whatever now spins off into its own little mini arc like

00:25:29   It's giving you the freedom to try a bunch of things see which one sticks without people being upset of you know

00:25:35   They're like, oh, yeah

00:25:36   There's the only three chances we get episode one two and three and one episode one stinks

00:25:40   Well, maybe episode two will be good episode two sucks off forget it now

00:25:42   There's no hope for episode 3 and that's it. Yeah. I'm actually really excited about

00:25:46   8 and 9 because it's it's

00:25:49   Fender the show every on Johnson, right? Well, at least writing we don't know. I don't think you're buying you pronounce it, right? Yeah

00:25:55   I don't think I think he's directing an 8 and then he's doing the

00:25:58   Sort of the treatment for 9 I thought but maybe I'm confused. I I'm not quite sure what's

00:26:05   Official on that but either way, it's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome

00:26:11   Because episode 7 is going to set up the conflict that I assume will play out over the course of the next three movies.

00:26:16   I do think that's the strength of J.J. Abrams though. He does a great setup.

00:26:20   Yeah, I just hope it's a strong arc because that like...

00:26:23   In, you know, so the original trilogy had such a strong thing of like an iconic villain and an iconic hero, a young hero.

00:26:33   The hero gets to evolve over the course of the thing, but it's such a clear conflict.

00:26:37   Rebel Empire Luke Vader a little bit of twisting some Yoda, you know

00:26:41   Yoda stuff in there and I am your father and all this stuff like that is such a good satisfying sturdy simple arc

00:26:47   And modern movies I find tend to over complicate things with like too much

00:26:53   I don't know

00:26:56   Not gonna say too much nuance

00:26:57   but like

00:26:58   It's that the bones are not as sturdy like there always has to be a lot of a lot of things in the mix and

00:27:04   It's it's just Star Wars for me seems to be

00:27:06   be more about clarity, simplicity, and sturdiness of, you know, archetypes.

00:27:12   And you have to do it well.

00:27:14   And that's what you can hang your three movies on.

00:27:17   I don't want to duplicate it.

00:27:19   The talk show research department has just beat me.

00:27:22   According to IMDB at least, Rian Johnson has been named as the director for both episodes

00:27:27   8 and 9.

00:27:28   Oh, cool.

00:27:29   Okay.

00:27:30   So that is good.

00:27:31   That's good, because I like Looper a lot.

00:27:32   Now, I do agree with that, and I think what John just said is in a nutshell, and I feel

00:27:35   like we can continue on for most of the rest of the show and sort of compare the

00:27:39   first trilogy versus the prequel trilogy in detail and in broad strokes but in

00:27:44   broad strokes the single biggest problem between the two well it's hard to say

00:27:48   it's the single biggest because there's maybe three or four enormous problems

00:27:51   but one one of them is the simple lack of clarity over who's the good guys and

00:27:56   who's the bad guys in the first one right before you ever see anything it

00:28:00   You see the logo, you hear the fanfare, and it's already very exciting because it's a cool logo, and it's really cool

00:28:07   Fanfare to start the theme song and then boom you get the scroll and the scroll says right at the beginning of the scroll

00:28:14   There's these good guy rebels who've just won their first victory against the evil

00:28:20   Galactic Empire and there that you've already got the basic gist of it

00:28:24   You could if you're a little kid and you can't even read that fast if you could at least get that first paragraph

00:28:30   Rebels win first victory against evil Galactic Empire. Just right there, evil.

00:28:35   And then all of a sudden you miss the rest of the words and then you see a

00:28:38   little tiny spaceship being chased by an enormous badass looking spaceship. You

00:28:43   know exactly what's going on. You've already got it. Good guys, outgunned, bad

00:28:48   guys, enormous resources. And that's the whole three movies right there.

00:28:53   Yeah, the prequel setup, like the type of movie it would have to be to

00:28:59   use that type of setup is like it would have to be kind of like not even this even this

00:29:05   is simpler like like like Rome on HBO or like you know it's all about political intrigue

00:29:10   and the fall of a decadent empire and that is a much more complicated story than you

00:29:15   know underdog rebels versus oppressive empire you know like it's it's it's a different story

00:29:22   it's like it's like turning it into a political thriller it's like well that's not really

00:29:26   what Star Wars is and then you fail to confidently execute a sort of geopolitical thriller because

00:29:34   geopolitical thrillers don't have a lot of spaceship chases and gunfights like they're

00:29:37   all about backroom dealings and and you know it's like what is it House of Cards in space

00:29:43   like they just it's not no one involved in that movie was equipped to do that the script

00:29:47   didn't support it the characters didn't support and that's not the story we wanted to hear

00:29:50   we wanted to hear hey this Darth Vader guy who supposedly was nice turned into Darth

00:29:54   That's what we wanted to hear you got three movies to tell me that and you're just like actually I want to tell you about

00:29:58   The the fall of the decadent Jedi and I'll do a really crappy job of it. No not interested and you did a bad job

00:30:04   Yeah, I think it's yeah, it's two levels deep or one you didn't want a political thriller anyway, and two the political thriller

00:30:12   That George Lucas wrote and made zero sense whatsoever

00:30:15   And I don't mean that in a small sense and like to exaggerate how little sense it make it just it just doesn't hold any

00:30:21   water at all. I can see the story he was going for because you it's sort of like this is he tells you

00:30:29   flat out like this is you know he has characters say things that are basically like the text of

00:30:33   the movie you know and went with the emperor saying stuff it's like that I can imagine a story

00:30:41   like that as like a side story or as like maybe one of the expanded universe novels describing

00:30:46   the fall of the republic and why the republic fell but it would have to involve entirely different

00:30:50   characters and it would have nothing to do with Darth Vader or anything we cared about

00:30:55   knowing in these prequels.

00:30:57   I always think it's a mistake to tell the backstory of your most intriguing villain

00:31:01   or anti-hero. Because all you can do is lessen them. Like, a lot of their power comes in

00:31:08   there from being mysterious.

00:31:09   Well, no, you can, because here's the thing with Vader. Vader is a cartoon villain in

00:31:12   the first movie and by the final movie you sympathize with him. So that's the arc of

00:31:16   his character.

00:31:17   Yeah, so that's it. You're done. That's what I mean.

00:31:19   But you still want to know how did Vader get to the place where he is in A New Hope?

00:31:23   How did this supposedly sympathetic person come in?

00:31:27   I always compare it to the best case scenario of this is the Godfather series, not counting

00:31:31   movie three, where you take Michael Corleone, who is a good person, smart, he means well,

00:31:39   he's thrust into a difficult situation, and he tries to do the right thing in every time

00:31:44   he's presented with a decision, he tries to do what he thinks is the right thing for himself

00:31:47   and his family and a series of what he thinks are good decisions lead him to the place where he is at the end of

00:31:52   Godfather 2

00:31:54   It's how can a good person make a series of moves they think are right end up in a super dark place

00:32:00   And the Godfather is obviously this is a high bar right you know, but if you want to say

00:32:04   Goodfellas does the same thing in a way, right?

00:32:06   Bad place is being witness protection like yeah, that's more like how do things fall apart whereas what you want to know in Vader

00:32:14   Is how do things come together?

00:32:15   How do they come to a head where you are just this net, you know?

00:32:18   Where you are the one of the the top people in the Empire and eventually with the end of the Death Star by the time

00:32:24   Empire strikes back you are you know, the the fist of the Empire crushing everybody else

00:32:29   You're like this was a good person. How'd that happen? And so we catch it at the end, right?

00:32:34   I would like to see the story of how does this good person fall into that because that can be a variant

00:32:39   I like that story. It's kind of like I don't know what you would call it. It's a it's a tragedy

00:32:43   It's the downfall of a great person

00:32:45   It's a person who you care about who you identify with is it through all through the godfather moves you feel for Michael Corleone you

00:32:50   Identify with him you you you feel like he is the the protagonist that he is the good of which is why godfather 2

00:32:56   Is so brilliant like this is the good guy like it it takes you through that journey and realizes

00:33:00   Makes you realize along with everyone else in the movie that this this arc has bent in a particular direction

00:33:05   I would like to see that movie about Anakin so I so I agree with you. I would like I'm sure

00:33:11   You know since I was a kid. I've always been curious about how

00:33:13   Anakin like Luke's father turned to the dark side that that's fascinating

00:33:19   but I think the degree of difficulty of telling that story in a satisfactory manner is

00:33:23   So high that you basically just run the risk of ruining

00:33:27   The character well you could rate is basically ruined if you pay attention to this the prequels Vader sucks

00:33:34   Basically, I just associate them

00:33:37   Yeah, you have to you have to write because you can't believe that that's the same guy and you don't

00:33:42   You don't root for him. Really? I mean, yeah

00:33:45   Michael Corleone is a good example because you do root for Michael and you sympathize with his decisions

00:33:51   Like I mean, I think clearly probably the biggest decision, you know that starts him on a path

00:33:56   He's never gonna get out of his when he volunteers to

00:33:58   I don't remember its name, but he's oh, yeah kill so lots

00:34:03   So is you know all of a sudden he's not you know up until then on the on paper. He is clean

00:34:10   He's a war hero

00:34:11   He's you know I think he's college educated

00:34:14   You know his father said blood all over your Ivy League shirt or something like that

00:34:17   Yeah, is you know he's he's set up for a career in politics and where maybe his family isn't clean

00:34:22   He is like somebody could look at whatever he's done, and if they knew the truth

00:34:26   They'd find out that you know he was a good kid from a you know gangster family

00:34:30   Whereas once he pulls the hit on Salazzo that's you know

00:34:33   He's got to keep that secret and it's motivated by love of family love right there like so here's the thing they could you know

00:34:39   He said I go it's very difficult to tell that story

00:34:41   One of the the videos that John sent around that he wanted us to watch before this was the kid bash thing

00:34:46   Where they were trying to show some of the influences that George Lucas has been intercutting those influences into the the video of a new hope

00:34:56   like like George Lucas was inspired by you know these Carrasa movies and westerns and Flash Gordon and

00:35:01   He just pulls nose and puts the movie and the modern example that I love the best is look at Quentin Tarantino

00:35:06   All the movies all the genres of movies that he loved particular movies particular scenes particular images that he grew up with

00:35:12   he repurposes and and

00:35:14   remixes and filters through his own mind and imagination and make something

00:35:18   Greater than the whole if you wanted to tell the downfall of Darth Vader story and you didn't have any better ideas

00:35:24   You can do that same appropriation and remixing directly from gangster movies the Godfather or like you said Goodfellas or any

00:35:30   there are so many sources for you to

00:35:32   perform the same creative function of saying I mean you could you could just pull that story straight out and

00:35:38   Use that as the bones to have with and use particular scenes and like, you know

00:35:42   Just there are there other examples of this type of story from cinema and it is essentially a tragedy and even when we know the ending

00:35:49   That makes it all the more poignant because the first few movies you'd really wanted to have us identifying

00:35:54   With and rooting for Anakin and then at the end it would be all the all the worst for the audience

00:35:59   They would feel terrible that they know what's coming kind of like Titanic me

00:36:02   You know the boats gonna sink right but you just got you got a build-up

00:36:04   And then have the sinking be meaningful because now you've become attached to these characters, right?

00:36:09   Well, you know, there's even like historical precedent like I don't know Caesar and Rome like where he goes and basically becomes the Emperor

00:36:15   That's it seems like a decent model for

00:36:18   For the takeover of the Republic, right and you know, it's gonna happen to him too

00:36:23   They've told that story many times exactly. No, it's not gonna happen to Caesar

00:36:26   You just gotta how can I tell that story so that I care when it happens?

00:36:29   Yeah, knowing that knowing knowing the ending is actually a very well

00:36:33   It's a well trodden path for for especially I think tragic fiction

00:36:40   I mean Shakespeare all the shit most of so many of Shakespeare's plays were not original stories. They were either historical

00:36:47   Or they were these you know parables that had been passed down by spoken word for a hundred years people knew the gist of them

00:36:55   All he did was do them really really well with really clever dialogue and really crisply defined characters

00:37:03   But the fact that people knew where they were going

00:37:05   Emphasizes the tragedy of it. Mm-hmm. It's like the Hitchcock thing where the Hitchcock thing was

00:37:09   Have the bomb under the guy's chair the character doesn't know the bomb there's but show the audience the bomb under the chair

00:37:15   So the audience knows ahead of time that there's a bomb in the chair by the characters don't know

00:37:18   So when you know Anakin's gonna turn if you're rooting for Anakin everything Anakin does that brings him closer to the dark side

00:37:24   You're like the audience knows like no Anakin is a bomb under your seat

00:37:26   You're gonna turn don't you see you know what I mean?

00:37:28   Like you this is ample precedent for how to do this

00:37:31   Well, this is it wasn't done. Well doesn't mean it couldn't be right you you lose the surprise and you gain

00:37:37   Tremendous tension tension that lasts whereas like and I think in that the other side of that Hitchcock

00:37:43   Parable, you know his advice on show the audience the bomb under and put it under a little girl's seat

00:37:48   I have it a little girl eating a piece of popcorn and you show the bomb that's under her seat

00:37:51   He said, you know everybody's first instinct though

00:37:55   if they're making a thriller is to make the bomb a secret and

00:37:59   We don't find it goes off until it goes off and that makes us the real audience no different than the audience in the theater

00:38:05   Where the bomb is and he says it's you know

00:38:07   You you surprised you can surprise the hell out of the audience that way but there's no there's no tension

00:38:13   Mm-hmm, you know the tension is what what makes cinema interesting

00:38:17   I think that it there

00:38:25   Yeah, there's there's there's just no arc with Anakin in the in the prequel trilogy

00:38:31   it's all just

00:38:34   Annoying annoying annoying annoying annoying and then all of a sudden with 45 minutes to go flip to the dark side

00:38:40   So I don't for no good reason I mean we'll talk about this when we do the episode 3 and the incomparable

00:38:45   I'm sure but it's like you've got three movies to explain why this guy's gonna turn and just the movie

00:38:50   hours are ticking by and you're talking about the Emperor and you're talking about people running around shooting each other and

00:38:55   other

00:38:57   Insequential things and at no point you're like so so why is he gonna suddenly turn evil?

00:39:02   Oh because the script tells him to like god. I guess and now I kill children sure that comes yeah, right that fits perfect

00:39:08   It just doesn't make any sense

00:39:09   Yeah, I was so shattered after the like the original teaser trailer for Phantom Menace

00:39:15   There's one shot of Anakin

00:39:18   Standing and everybody's cheering him and Anakin the little boy

00:39:22   And I totally had this weird

00:39:25   Like my interpretation was that he's just so force powerful that everybody thinks he's awesome

00:39:30   And he and it basically is his ego is gonna end up eating him and turning him to invader

00:39:34   And then it turned out it was whatever because he ran a goofy

00:39:38   Padres which

00:39:40   What'll let down like there's so many rich things that they could have done with that character

00:39:44   That is a simplified way to go like oh, he's super powerful

00:39:46   It goes to his head like that's more of the Marvel villain type of thing where if you're super yes

00:39:51   And you're just like you know what I'm such a super genius everyone else on earth. They're just like ants to me

00:39:56   I should rule over them, and they're crap you know that's one way to go

00:39:59   It's a little bit more cartoonish villain

00:40:01   It is definitely not a sophisticated as a micro core

00:40:03   the only thing is that's what you want to happen because the arc promise in the original trilogy is that

00:40:07   Vader is actually a

00:40:09   thinking feeling sympathetic person who finally connects with Luke and has a you know

00:40:14   Cares for his son repents for his sin dies for them

00:40:18   and you know has like that's the person that you're promised and

00:40:23   The the crazy egomaniac it's difficult to reconcile that was say

00:40:28   I think you have to go kind of a Marco Carl Jung where it's like he did want to do the right thing and they

00:40:32   tried you that it's like

00:40:33   Anakin is whiny and annoying and the romance angle, there's no chemistry there.

00:40:38   There's... romance is a way you can kind of go bad, but that's more like...

00:40:42   leads you into a crime of passion. It doesn't lead you to become...

00:40:46   you know, rule over a giant empire and kill all the Jedi and start by slaughtering children.

00:40:50   And then it's like, well, I really didn't want my mom to die, so I guess now I should

00:40:53   kill these children because some guy promised me I'll be able to help people stay alive.

00:40:56   Like, if you want people to stay alive, you're not gonna be killing children.

00:40:59   I don't know. It doesn't make any sense.

00:41:01   Yeah. There's some other disappointing stuff there where they advertise him as being incredibly

00:41:10   powerful, more powerful than you know. And he doesn't do anything powerful. I felt that

00:41:16   they sort of lost an opportunity in the second movie when, first of all I don't like any of

00:41:22   this, but when the Sand People have captured his mother and he loses it, I kind of just wanted them

00:41:27   to just force destroy this city you know the the encampment like just tear it apart with his mind

00:41:34   if you want to go with that angle like the he that he's super powerful then you can start pulling

00:41:39   from child prodigy movies you know exactly where they're child prodigies who are very good or you

00:41:44   know you can do like a bobby fisher type thing like they're yeah a chess genius or like you know

00:41:48   an ender's game type thing where they're they're a child and they have amazing powers but they're not

00:41:53   not emotionally ready to deal with them and you know but that wasn't played up

00:41:57   like he was he was but it wasn't about his strength otherwise he was just like

00:42:02   it's pretty good Jedi seems fine yeah he seems I mean he's seems to equivalent

00:42:07   power to Obi-Wan yeah he's not as wise he's stupid he doesn't listen to

00:42:11   instructions but he's not super like the Jedi powers are kind of like the Marvel

00:42:15   powers and that depending on the scene especially in the prequels there there's

00:42:19   There's no real arc to the Jedi powers, and it's not clear what they're able to do or

00:42:24   not able to do.

00:42:25   Like, whereas in the original trilogy--

00:42:26   >> CHIP/JASON Yeah, it's whatever the writer needs at the time.

00:42:28   >> MIKE Yeah, in the original trilogy, it's like the Force is mysterious and weird and

00:42:31   pretty weak, and by the time Yoda is pulling next wing out of swamp, it's genuinely impressive.

00:42:36   Whereas in the prequels, it's like sometimes we're moving to giant rocks, sometimes we're

00:42:40   pushing one dude away, sometimes we're moving to salt shaker or an apple.

00:42:45   Sometimes you've got lightning, but you can block the lightning, but it's like, the rules

00:42:49   Are all worked out whereas in the original trilogy there was a clear arc across three whole movies

00:42:53   They made an arc of force powers lightning doesn't appear until the third movie and when it does you're surprised

00:42:57   And it's clearly a higher echelon of power and the prequel sits all over the map

00:43:01   Yeah

00:43:01   I thought that the other lesson that was very very clear in the the original trilogy from all three movies

00:43:09   But in a growing especially in the second two where Luke is, you know more and in

00:43:15   training to be a Jedi or and then in the third one be you know be

00:43:19   growing as a young Jedi was this this point of

00:43:23   you

00:43:25   If you're gonna be a Jedi you cannot you can't touch the dark side

00:43:29   Like once you go it's it's all corrupted like you can't just dip your toes in the dark side

00:43:33   You're you know, once you touch it, it's it's it's gonna corrupt you

00:43:37   So I have a theory on that. I think I'm gonna talk John offline some of the time

00:43:43   Um, I think so. I mean, Vader's supposed to bring balance to the Force and effectively he does that by murdering everybody who's got a Force powers except for Luke.

00:43:52   And I think the thing with Luke is that he does touch the dark side.

00:43:58   Right.

00:43:59   He uses a Force choke on a guard. That's not cool. No other Jedi has done that. But he just walks into Jabba's palace and strangles a guy.

00:44:07   uh he's dressed all in black in jedi um and he beats he defeats vader by just getting really

00:44:15   really angry yeah and beating the crap out of him but that's not i think i think the balance is where

00:44:21   when he tosses his lightsaber aside uh and decides that like no i can like luke uniquely can pull

00:44:28   back from the dark side right i'm so i'm so willing to reject the dark side that i'll leave

00:44:32   myself defenseless. But the balance thing is he did it but he accepted it right yeah isn't that

00:44:37   entirely a creation of the prequels the whole entire business yeah entirely right and that's

00:44:41   why i think it's bs because it's like it's like saying well we need to have a balance between

00:44:45   like you know uh murder and and safety we need to have a balance between robbery and having your

00:44:51   goods be secure we need to have some robberies but then sometimes things are stolen and we need to

00:44:55   have some murders mostly not murders like we need to have some uh you know anger and hatred but not

00:45:00   No, I disagree. I think, if anything, ham-fistedly, the Jedi Order is depicted as being emotionless

00:45:11   and detached, and ultimately that kind of leads to their downfall.

00:45:17   But that's not the type of balance you're talking about. You're talking about dark side

00:45:20   balance. You're not talking about emotional detachment. That's like Zen versus...

00:45:24   But I think dark side is embracing the passion angle of it.

00:45:28   They're the only people, they're not passionately loving anybody.

00:45:31   Uhh...

00:45:34   You know what I mean? Like I know what you're saying, like there's the emotional detachment depicted, again, this is all dependent on their prequels.

00:45:39   If you pretend their prequels don't exist, the arc is clear. The dark side is using your powers for evil.

00:45:44   And Jedi have tremendous powers, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

00:45:48   That's the dark side. And the whole idea is, "Look, we're going to give you these powers, and it's going to be really tempting to use these powers to essentially get your way."

00:45:54   And even if the way that your way is the good like well

00:45:57   I really wanted to feed the Empire you still should be careful because it's really easy to slip into like, you know

00:46:02   using your emotions to you to tell you what you should do with these powers and his whole arc is like

00:46:07   I'm gonna try he's a hothead and we're gonna try to stay away from the dark side

00:46:12   But you know by the second movie that you know

00:46:14   His father had problems dealing with this and he's a hothead too and he really wants to defeat Vader and Vader does terrible things

00:46:19   And you as the audience you're like pound him Luke kill him or whatever

00:46:21   But in the end as I've talked about in the episode we did about trying to die and the added story of pacifism where is

00:46:26   The only movie hero ever to embrace pacifism in the climactic scene

00:46:30   Yes, he gets away with it because Vader who's already completely, you know corrupted has no problem killing the Emperor

00:46:36   But he's like I would rather die

00:46:38   Than fall to the dark side because it's a personal victory for him

00:46:41   He essentially says I've he's had his victory his whole victory was like can I master the forest? Can I master myself?

00:46:47   Can I not give in to my hatred and everything and in the end he does and that is his victory and even if he?

00:46:51   had been killed by the Emperor and by Vader he still would have won and Yoda

00:46:56   would have been proud of him but we still get the happy ending because Vader

00:46:59   does. That's his arc it's not like well I had to I had to choke that

00:47:03   Remorian guard I had to get angry to defeat Vader you didn't have to do all

00:47:07   that stuff that was his battle against himself and when when he's doing that

00:47:10   when he's wailing on Vader the sad music is playing not the happy music there is

00:47:13   no balance in him there's no balance in him using his anger to beat up on Vader

00:47:17   That is his slow defeat the balance angle coming from the free pull

00:47:21   I think you'd have a better argument for the balance being that the Jedi have to you know

00:47:27   Sort of be more in touch with their emotions and not be you know

00:47:31   It's kind of more like it arguing for that priests shouldn't be celibate in the church. Yeah

00:47:35   I don't think that's coming away from this. Yeah, but I don't think Luke walks away from Jedi squeaky clean right like

00:47:41   he's

00:47:43   He's gone to the dark side and he's come back. Well. Yeah, he's gone to the brain

00:47:47   Let's put it that way because he stopped himself

00:47:50   And the thing is like he was not trained for his entire life to be a Jedi like like the other and the part of the

00:47:55   Training it's like you know

00:47:57   Like to answer these or like priests or whatever where you were denying in our parlance because we just that map humans and everything you're

00:48:03   Denying a part of your humanity. You know if you're gonna be celibate because you're a monk

00:48:06   It's like well

00:48:07   It's important for your spiritual and a life and so on and so forth but the number of humans who deal well with being celibate

00:48:12   is very low because it's a strong, you know, urge that we have and so wouldn't it be better if there

00:48:16   was a philosophy that embraced everything that it means to be human and just took the good from that

00:48:20   and that's what the Jedi are in a bubble and never mind that they're aliens and it doesn't really

00:48:23   make any sense in that context anyway. Yeah.

00:48:25   And never mind too though, also that like let's say with the Catholic church where priests are

00:48:32   celibate, there is no argument within church doctrine that what makes somebody a good priest

00:48:40   an inheritable

00:48:42   quality like genetic

00:48:44   whereas with the Jedi even in not even going to the second trilogy where they

00:48:48   Backwards, you know rewrote in a million. Yeah the medical or the I was gonna call it the m-word

00:48:54   But even even in the first trilogy they say, you know, the force is strong with the Skywalker's and stuff

00:49:00   They even admit then that it's you know

00:49:02   Why in the world with the Jedi Order

00:49:07   Have everybody be celibate if like the best the best source for new Jedi would be their offspring

00:49:13   The celibacy angle makes sense in this in this respect and that because priests don't have super magical powers, right? So

00:49:20   these individuals have tremendous power and it seems if I had to describe what the whole purpose of the Jedi would be is like look

00:49:29   Some percentage of people in this universe or have have this amazing magical power. They're just like super dangerous

00:49:34   so we need to get these kids young and we need to

00:49:37   Tamp down some aspects of what you know human nature essentially we need to get their tempers under control

00:49:42   We need to make it because it's very easy

00:49:44   You know if you give if you give like a five-year-old, you know the ability to use the force and learn to you know

00:49:50   By the time they're 13 year olds

00:49:51   They will have built up an amazing ability to use this force and they'll just be they'll be very destructive and we like we need to

00:49:57   Act as a balance against the the worst parts of human nature because if we don't we're gonna have a bunch of these people running

00:50:03   around with, you know, that their power would corrupt them, that they may have been good

00:50:08   people, but we need to get them early. And what we need to do is give them more of a

00:50:11   monk type mindset because if we don't, we'll have a bunch of hothead teenagers running

00:50:15   around with superpowers and that is a really bad formula for peace. And so there is some,

00:50:21   I could come up with a justification for why it's really important to find force sensitive

00:50:24   kids young, get them into the program and teach them to, maybe they took it too far

00:50:30   of like total detachment and celibacy and whatever like that I think is too far but

00:50:34   have them in a program that lets them deal with their emotions and understand that they

00:50:39   have, you know, with great power comes great responsibility to pull a line from another

00:50:43   movie.

00:50:44   But they have to deal with that in a certain way.

00:50:45   So make some sense that the program for Jedi would be like, dude, chill.

00:50:49   Like not otherwise you've got – can you imagine teenagers with the Force?

00:50:54   It would be a bad scene.

00:50:56   Yeah.

00:50:57   Let's take a break and we'll come back to that.

00:51:00   I'm going to come back to this question of the Jedi Order.

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00:52:46   slash daring fireball Jedi Order see this is one of those things big picture

00:52:56   big picture Star Wars to double trilogy the thing that has always stood out to

00:53:02   me even I thought even with the original trilogy by the time we got to return of

00:53:07   the Jedi that Lucas didn't really have all this shit worked out at the

00:53:10   beginning I mean not even by a long shot but then with the the second trilogy it

00:53:15   It just it just reeks to high hell of stuff that he made up on the fly.

00:53:21   Like almost everything in the prequel trilogy to me shows it and it almost

00:53:27   wrecks the stuff in the original trilogy.

00:53:28   So I think it was great.

00:53:30   I think it was, I think it worked really well when you're doing star wars, because

00:53:36   you can just say stuff as throwaway lines and people can fill in the background

00:53:40   because it's not particularly pertinent to the, to the tale of destroying the

00:53:44   Death Star, right? And Empire kind of builds on that a little bit because there

00:53:52   was a flimsy enough sort of shell before that it could build into it a

00:53:56   bit. Return of the Jedi just kind of goes a little bit off the rails, like I don't

00:54:00   understand what's going on so much. But the prequel trilogy makes no sense at

00:54:05   all. I don't understand the Jedi Order. The Sith seem like the most ineffective

00:54:09   like really? There's only ever two of them? What? I don't get it. I don't

00:54:13   I don't understand the rationale for that at all.

00:54:16   Or how that can be a legitimate threat.

00:54:20   To a Jedi Order of thousands.

00:54:22   Yeah, well, turns out they were, because they took them out, but still.

00:54:26   I'm sure it's explained in the Expanded Universe that I haven't read, but it makes sense to

00:54:29   me that kind of in an evil organization, where might makes right, if you are mighty enough,

00:54:40   there is no reason to have a bunch of henchmen hanging around.

00:54:43   And so if the Sith all kill each other until there's only two left, I mean I didn't listen

00:54:47   to the talk show with Whiskas yet, but the title "Leads and Relieves" you came to the

00:54:51   same conclusion.

00:54:52   Like why have an apprentice then?

00:54:53   Because the whole idea with the apprentice isn't going to kill you, but it's like a wolf

00:54:55   pack where like eventually the lead wolf gets old and some other wolf challenges into a

00:54:59   fight and wins and then he's the head wolf, he's the alpha wolf, right?

00:55:02   That type of model where the strongest survives and the Sith tradition, you can hang a lot

00:55:08   of stuff on tradition because tradition is like "Well it doesn't make any rational sense

00:55:11   It's just the way it's always been done.

00:55:12   Like, the biggest bad is the big bad,

00:55:15   but you always gotta have someone who's an apprentice,

00:55:17   because eventually you're gonna get old and die or get defeated,

00:55:20   and we need someone to replace you.

00:55:21   What we'd rather have happen is you train some guy up,

00:55:23   and eventually he gets stronger than you and defeats you,

00:55:25   and it's kind of like, that's an honorable way for you to go out,

00:55:29   and it keeps the Sith going, and so it's not an entirely crazy system.

00:55:32   Okay, fair enough.

00:55:34   But, you know, two against the entire Jedi Order is weird.

00:55:39   And also the way the Jedi Order sort of sits next to the Republican government.

00:55:46   That's exactly what I think is a huge mistake.

00:55:49   I felt like...

00:55:52   Being in exile makes some sense, where, you know, because of the Empire, Yoda and Obi-Wan

00:55:57   are both old and they kind of have to hide.

00:55:58   But I thought that the way that the Jedi were set up in the first trilogy was that they...

00:56:06   that they were all in hiding but that they weren't centralized. There was an

00:56:12   or-- They were like knights or like samurai. Yeah, well samurai is exactly what I'm

00:56:17   thinking. Where there's not like one central like samurai headquarters where

00:56:20   all the samurai come out of, there's a tradition and there's a code,

00:56:23   clearly there's a code, and the training might be, what would you call it,

00:56:29   regularized? You know, there's a systematic training to become a new one,

00:56:32   But then once you do you're all sort of lone wolves, you know, and you know

00:56:37   But you're serving they're serving the

00:56:41   Good government or like the Republic essentially like they would you know, they would be the sort of benevolent enforcement arm

00:56:47   I did like I think you could make again you can make an interesting sort of geopolitical thriller about look at this weird system of

00:56:52   Government, you know where they have a kind of weird Jedi Order with these magic people. It's an uneasy truce with the

00:56:58   democratically elected non magic people like

00:57:01   that could work out as a different kind of movie and you can see how a

00:57:05   Government could get into a really weird shape, especially if there's legitimate magic running around you're like well who should run the show?

00:57:11   Should it be those magic people or should we like vote for people and they were voting for a queen and then she's a teenager

00:57:15   And like there's all sorts of government ends up in all sorts of weird distorted shape

00:57:20   So I'm willing to to believe any weird galactic government shape could work out

00:57:25   But if your movie is gonna be about that then that's what your movie is about

00:57:28   It's about like well, how do we reconcile this thing?

00:57:30   And what if the magic people started to go crazy and what if the political people started to become a correct?

00:57:33   What are the checks and balances here and how do empires fall and so on and so forth?

00:57:38   Not the story. I was interested in hearing I wanted to hear about Vader and Anakin but that's that's a story

00:57:42   You know right from the start in a phantom menace where the first thing we see is Qui-Gon and his you know

00:57:49   Padawan obi-wan, you know being sent by the Chancellor to to do something, you know fix a trade dispute or whatever

00:57:57   It's just that just didn't seem to me and what the Jedi were about it

00:58:01   It didn't seem to me like the Jedi were people who did the bidding of the government like cops, you know

00:58:05   Well, I mean like Knights serve the king, right? Yeah, like samurai serve their their feudal masters

00:58:12   Well, I loyalty to that man. I think they were Ronan I think is the right word

00:58:16   I thought I always imagined the Jedi is as a sort of Ronan, you know that they didn't serve a master

00:58:21   They served the force was their master and like a natural sense of just truth and justice

00:58:26   Yeah, that would make sense and I mean and then you don't have the Jedi Council at all

00:58:30   But then you have basically a government you could still do the government angle if they really into that was like well

00:58:34   You've got through public

00:58:35   But what's the deal with these Jedi that don't serve any master that are super powerful that are running around we just supposed to trust

00:58:40   That they're gonna be like

00:58:42   Benevolent or whatever you can the other angle you can go is like Merlin serving King Arthur

00:58:46   it's like well, there's not that many of these guys, but they are running around and

00:58:49   We would like to have one in-house, but there's other ones out there. How do you deal with wizards?

00:58:54   How do you deal with people who can who are not not constrained by any government and

00:59:00   have powers that you don't understand it but that are significantly powerful?

00:59:04   Yeah, well, and then you could have something like that where maybe one or so a very small

00:59:11   handful of Jedi could volunteer to be the handful of ones who serve the Chancellor of

00:59:18   the Senate or something like that but not the whole order.

00:59:21   I feel like how you know they were they were like a sort of quasi independent police force

00:59:25   which I thought was just way off for the tone that was set by the original and they did

00:59:30   once they bring in the whole youngling and like the kids and everything I mean that that

00:59:35   the presence for that was set in the movie when Luke shows up and a go by it's like he's

00:59:38   too old yes too old to begin the training it's like well I remember when I watched the

00:59:41   movie like what do you mean too old he's not too old he's like he's just just barely an

00:59:45   adult like it's that's isn't that the perfect time to that's like when you would go into

00:59:49   the army or be trained or whatever but the that comment from Yoda and the prequels make

00:59:54   clear that the whole idea was like it get them when they're young get them like pull

00:59:58   them away from their parents either get when they're toddlers bring them in here and that

01:00:01   again my explanation for that and my head can is like well you really need to get them

01:00:05   when they're young because if you left to their own devices you'll have a serious problem

01:00:09   so that the whole order and system is like that seems like it would be the most important

01:00:15   function of the Jedi order it would be finding these people and bringing them into art and

01:00:19   training them and they could disperse that though. They don't have to remain and become

01:00:22   a Jedi Council who sits around in a circle and makes pronouncements. You don't need to

01:00:25   do that. But once you've established that very young kids get the Force early and that

01:00:30   Yoda said that you need to be trained from a very young age, I think it's reasonable

01:00:35   to stick with that and say there's got to be like a school like Xavier's school for

01:00:40   gifted. Same thing with the X-Men. If you don't get them into Xavier's school, they

01:00:44   might end up falling Magneto and then you've got a problem.

01:00:46   Even with just the original trilogy even not even go into the prequel trilogy. I always thought that Yoda's

01:00:51   protestations in that scene were

01:00:54   He was just playing hard to get to make Luke work

01:00:58   I don't know no intention a minute because even in even from what we only know from the original trilogy

01:01:04   We know that Ben lived near Luke his entire life and that he'd sort of had a you know

01:01:10   and they met each other before he knew him as Ben and

01:01:14   You know, they'd met each other before it wasn't the first time that they met when when he rescued him from the sand people

01:01:20   So obi-wan Kenobi clearly purposefully for the first 20 years of Luke's life

01:01:25   Never even mentioned the force to him not even like it's like telling stories

01:01:29   Like Luke didn't even know what a lightsaber was

01:01:32   Yeah

01:01:32   That they have a timing problem with the prequels to this like you you you to tell me that these Jedi were around but then

01:01:38   Within one generation they're so forgotten that that just believe they exist like and Luke doesn't know what a lightsaber was if every kid in

01:01:45   Our world where the Jedi are fictional knows what a lightsaber is how in the world doesn't every kid in that galaxy

01:01:51   Yeah, like even if Vader had killed them all be just before you were born. You're still gonna know about it like they have

01:01:56   Right. We know recorded in the same the way that in the same way that we all know who the samurai were

01:02:02   Exactly, right

01:02:04   So that I mean that's timing wise that's a problem

01:02:06   but when when Yoda said he's too old the reason that always stood out to me because because he seems to be the perfect age and

01:02:11   The fact that Yoda would pull out the too old and that you know because it would be ridiculous like well

01:02:17   It would say like he's too short like it would be the same. What do you mean? He's too short?

01:02:20   He's like average height for a person seems fine. Maybe did I have to be super short, right?

01:02:23   So when he said he's too old he wouldn't pull that out and yes

01:02:26   He didn't want to train him who's trying to back out or whatever

01:02:28   But why pull up something so preposterous and the answer is it's not preposterous that

01:02:32   Jedi actually are trained from a super young age and

01:02:35   You don't usually get him by the time they're they're practically an adult because by then it's there

01:02:41   They're too set in their ways

01:02:42   it doesn't make much sense in the context of Luke because again my whole rationale of wanting them young is like

01:02:46   They should be feeling the force when they're very young and by the time they get that old

01:02:51   They'll just be like completely reckless force users

01:02:53   Whereas Luke has no idea that even has the force until I knew hope so that's well

01:02:56   There's two things there a I don't believe for a second that Yoda did not intend to train Luke

01:03:01   He's just saying that because he wants to see what how Luke reacts. That's my

01:03:05   He's testing him. No, he's

01:03:07   Arguing with obi-wan because he doesn't what's he gonna do not train Luke and then just let let the galaxy go on being the way

01:03:13   It is no, but he didn't like it. He's out of the game like he's on de go boys hanging around

01:03:18   He's looking at the animals and the lizards and stuff

01:03:20   He's kind of checked out and like he's trying to try and pull him back in like oh, he just can you train one?

01:03:24   I think I think it's a at best a protestation. Like I don't want to get out of bed fine

01:03:29   I know I gotta get out of bed and train this guy. That's how

01:03:32   Well, yeah, it is a legitimate argument and and this is where I back you up is that

01:03:37   Luke

01:03:41   Doesn't believe he can lift the x-wing and that goes to him being too old because he's got an experience and he's got

01:03:47   Like he he understands how heavy one

01:03:55   You can't you don't believe in this stuff enough. So it's like in the matrix when the little kid has no problem

01:04:00   You know, you know there is no spoon and when you're older you're like what you mean?

01:04:04   The spoon is totally there and it's harder because you're more set in your ways

01:04:07   That's the that's the other angle for him being too old

01:04:09   I think it's it's the least his age is the least of the problems with the chronology there. The boy is reckless

01:04:16   Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know I mean the the the Empire just it should have been around for like hundreds of years

01:04:23   Yeah, it should not have been only 15 years old and in fact. They don't say that though well

01:04:27   They do say before the Empire because you could have had a benevolent Empire

01:04:30   But you don't know how old Obi Wan is he could you don't know how long life spans are in this universe

01:04:38   And he's a Jedi and Yoda is super old too and like there are many outs like that the chronology

01:04:43   Made sense when you just had the original trilogy

01:04:46   But when you when you connect it up in the way they did then you're like then you think

01:04:51   Everyone forgot about the Jedi. I know you're on Tatooine. It's far away and stuff. But seriously man, like you get TV

01:04:56   And like yeah, I mean what what's his name even calls tells Vader? It's an ancient. You're the last practitioner of that ancient religion

01:05:03   Yeah, it's not too ancient. It's like yeah, you know, yeah, it's like 20 years out of day. What are you kidding?

01:05:08   I have like computers that still work better that old right? Yeah, I always yeah, I always just had the vague sense

01:05:14   Just as a rough canology and whether it actually worked out or not

01:05:18   But that let's say like in that scene on the Death Star where the guy is saying, you know

01:05:22   You're the last practitioner of that thing that at least the the age of the Empire and the age when the Jedi were

01:05:29   either a dominant force missing or

01:05:32   reduced to just a handful hidden around the galaxy was around the length of those

01:05:37   Men's ages like that guy was born in a world where the Jedi were already decimated. Yes, you know like 35 40 years. Yeah

01:05:45   you know because if it wasn't, you know, it's sort of like for what for like people like us like the the the

01:05:51   World without TV like we know that there was a world without TV

01:05:55   We believe in a world without TV, but we don't we haven't experienced it which makes it because it predates our life

01:06:00   You know our us being born it seems ancient or even black and white TV black and white TV seems ancient to me

01:06:06   Yeah, it's intellectually fathomable, but kind of viscerally just you can't really picture it, right?

01:06:12   Right, whereas if I was maybe 10 years older then black and white TV would just seem like something from my childhood exactly

01:06:18   Yeah, the other angle you can go to explain the chronology is the backwater thing where yeah these things were around but information is not

01:06:27   Evenly distributed and so if you are really far away from all the action on some remote planet

01:06:33   Maybe you're not interested in the history of the Republic or any sort of

01:06:38   Galactic government or anything like that and maybe you just you know like the Jedi story that we heard the samurai stories because Japan's not

01:06:44   Too far away, and we had a war with them

01:06:46   And we know about Japanese stuff in their culture came over here how much culture about maybe it's how do we and they didn't get any

01:06:52   Culture about the Jai and it still doesn't as John said that all right well Ben is down the street

01:06:56   He's purposely not mentioning it

01:06:57   Maybe that's part of his strategy of keeping an eye on Luke put him in a backwater where they've never even heard of the Jedi

01:07:01   You can kind of explain it

01:07:03   But once you get like Han Solo supposedly been jetting all over the galaxy

01:07:07   And he's like I've never seen anything that made me think all-powerful for you never seen anything

01:07:11   Like you should have seen like movies of Jedi things with their mind and you'd be like, alright

01:07:16   Well, I guess that was a thing. Yeah, and then in the new trilogy, I mean again, he's supposedly super super powerful

01:07:21   But we see Anakin as a kid doing some things that would require the force

01:07:25   You know that if just because the Jedi are decimated doesn't mean that human beings who have force related powers

01:07:32   Yeah, you know that you wouldn't run into him with what we can only assume to be the wide variety of action that Han Solo has seen

01:07:40   You know heretofore in his his adventures. Well, I mean Anakin's whole thing was like he's got Jedi reflexes

01:07:46   He's the only human who can podrace you could just be a child prodigy and have amazing reflexes at that point

01:07:50   You don't necessarily have to you know, he's not he's not moving salt shakers for his mind quite yet

01:07:54   I just I bet I just think that if a seven-year-old is showing those type of abilities that Han Solo would have seen

01:08:00   You know something a guy who could cheat at dice, you know in a casino because he can yeah

01:08:04   I mean, there's no explanation for Han not being so doubt

01:08:07   I mean other than the fact that it works in the context of the original trilogy

01:08:10   But as soon as you tack on the prequels with that timeline between them then all of a sudden

01:08:13   Everything in a new hope is just doesn't read is true. Yeah, you have to be willfully stupid at that point. Yeah

01:08:19   I

01:08:22   So I wouldn't I want to touch on some of the writing things that to me just clearly showed that it wasn't thought out in advance

01:08:29   advance.

01:08:30   And I'm going to say this, though, before I do that.

01:08:32   There's so many writing complaints that we can do

01:08:34   and should do, and I think it's fundamental to the prequels'

01:08:38   emptiness.

01:08:40   I'll say, though, I'll forgive Lucas

01:08:42   for those expositional problems, like Luke not knowing

01:08:46   what a lightsaber is or the Force is.

01:08:48   I'll forgive those completely because of the need

01:08:50   to explain to us, the audience, what those things are.

01:08:54   And yes, it was a little clumsy.

01:08:57   If you really think about it, it thinks a little clumsy.

01:09:00   But in hindsight, though, overall, it was a good scene.

01:09:04   I remember very fondly looking back

01:09:06   on that scene in Obi-Wan's house where he gets the lightsaber

01:09:09   and turns it on and hears about the Jedi and the Force.

01:09:12   That scene is perfectly acceptable

01:09:13   if the prequels don't exist.

01:09:14   It's perfect because he really wouldn't have known.

01:09:16   He's a farm boy.

01:09:17   How would he know about this?

01:09:18   Obviously, the farm boy shows up with the old man.

01:09:19   The old man shows him something from a box.

01:09:21   It's an ancient thing.

01:09:22   It's a device.

01:09:24   Yeah, you get someone who's naive,

01:09:26   And then you have the wiser person explain to them and you really explain to the audience

01:09:29   It works perfectly in the context of that story

01:09:31   I think it would be a little bit more elegant if it was a little bit more and I hate to say it but a

01:09:35   Little bit more like the scene in a phantom menace where young Anakin

01:09:40   Asks if he's a Jedi because he's you know, he sees his laser sword

01:09:45   He doesn't even know the name lightsaber, but it's like even if Luke had just said, you know

01:09:50   It just expressed some sort of I've heard of lightsabers, but never believed I'd see well

01:09:55   You want it to be more mysterious than that.

01:09:56   Like, you don't want Neo to know about the Matrix before I get--

01:10:00   like, you want him to be a complete neophyte,

01:10:03   because he's got a-- his arc is he's

01:10:04   a farm boy who dreams something more,

01:10:06   and then this wider world opens up to him.

01:10:08   So I'm perfectly happy with him not knowing at all.

01:10:10   And the explanation, as delivered by Alec Guinness,

01:10:12   was so laid back and not going into a lot of detail.

01:10:15   Like, sure as hell not mentioning midichlorians.

01:10:17   It's like two or three sentences of vague--

01:10:19   it's the type of explanation you would get if this guy's like,

01:10:22   I've decided that I'm going to bring you on board this thing,

01:10:24   But I can't explain it all to you now

01:10:26   Let me just give you the broad strokes and let's move on to the next scene because we gotta go to Mos Eisley

01:10:30   Right and it's a well, you know Luke is our you know, he's there for us

01:10:35   We see this we see that whole thing through Luke's eyes and up until that point in the movie

01:10:39   You know, it's actually it's not like this hybrid fantasy science fiction combo. It's more just science fiction

01:10:47   It's just spaceships and laser guns and then all of a sudden in that scene. We're we're explained that it's also a little magic

01:10:54   And that movie, A New Hope is not force heavy.

01:10:56   Like, it's like, alright, lightsabers, force, Jedi, I guess Vader's got one, it's an excuse to have a sword fight.

01:11:02   But like, really, Luke is like...

01:11:04   He's not so sure.

01:11:06   I think it's only the mind trick that is magic.

01:11:09   They don't even do the force move stuff.

01:11:11   Yeah, but what I'm saying is like, what Luke dreams about is being a pilot.

01:11:15   Like, he wants to fly a spaceship and he's interested in the rebellion.

01:11:18   You know about the rebellion? He's totally interested in the rebellion.

01:11:20   So he's a liberal, basically. Like, he's against the Empire.

01:11:23   He's for he's for the rebellion

01:11:24   He just wants it big since friend has gone off into war to join the rebellion and he's totally into flying things and be like

01:11:31   He's he's a young

01:11:33   Punk who you know wants to get off this stinking rock and do great things and none of that has anything to do with the force

01:11:39   Or swords or sword fighting or moving things with your mind or anything like that's totally the second movie gets him into that and then

01:11:44   The first movie he's just like, you know

01:11:46   It's like a coming-of-age story and going off to the war and even though he does a little bit of force stuff

01:11:51   It's like Obi-Wan says taking your first step into a larger world he has but that larger world does not yet interest him

01:11:57   He doesn't realize the importance of it until more or less

01:11:59   He sees obi-wan disappear in a puff of smoke and then starts talking to him through his you know

01:12:04   He can hear him in his mind. He's like, maybe there's something to this force thing and and that aspect of it

01:12:09   I do think was loosely plotted out by Lucas where here in this first movie

01:12:13   the force is really just for Vader and obi-wan and Luke gets a

01:12:18   Taste of it he gets a few drops on his tongue, you know

01:12:21   And it helps him is it helps him have final victory in the movie like in the end

01:12:26   His piling skills are not enough and he has to you know, use the force

01:12:29   That's the whole big takeaway from and that's the climax. No, but what has he done?

01:12:32   He's barely scratched the surface of like he didn't find anyone with lightsaber the whole movie, right?

01:12:37   He got shot in the butt by the little floaty ball

01:12:39   But in the end it was all I mean, this is why the movie resonated so much

01:12:43   It was you know, the the force stuff is like

01:12:45   It's a little bit of Luddite ISM of turn off your targeting computer

01:12:48   But like you know that that things that are inside you your emotions and feelings and thoughts

01:12:53   Are that feel so powerful inside you can actually have an external manifestation

01:12:57   manifestation of that power and it will lead you to victory and it'll be a good victory and the star will blow up and no

01:13:02   One else could have made that shot and so on and so forth. All right, I

01:13:05   Think and I know this is might be controversial. I think and I think John you and I have even talked about this

01:13:11   I think that when Lucas wrote

01:13:14   Star Wars or what I call Star Wars the new hope episode 4

01:13:18   And I think he thought if this is a hit and I get to make the rest of the trilogy

01:13:22   You know, that was the whole thing

01:13:23   I say I've got to make this first one and if it's successful, holy shit

01:13:26   Then I can you know worry I can write and finish, you know, that's planned trilogy

01:13:30   I think he wrote it with the idea that Luke was gonna be the guy who gets the girl. I

01:13:35   Think so, yeah, it's reasonable and the whole first movie completely supports that right

01:13:42   I don't think there was any plan at all for Leia to be his sister. No, he did plan on Vader being his father

01:13:47   I mean and there's the whole thing where Vader's I think the German word for father

01:13:51   I

01:13:53   Think that might have been there

01:13:54   Although I'm still not even convinced of that because when obi-wan tells him that Vader he was killed by killed by Vader

01:14:02   It it plays well in hindsight

01:14:06   But I can't help but think that in from what we know of Lucas overall like he's if that's what he thought overall

01:14:11   He would have overplayed it and it would have been like he killed your father. So if you watch a scene

01:14:16   I just well actually as it happens. I just watched that scene just before coming on this podcast and

01:14:21   There's two ways you can take it one way if you look at it with hindsight, it is acted perfectly to be like

01:14:27   He's thinking of like what he's gonna say

01:14:32   You know, how is he gonna say if he knows he's gonna lie, right in hindsight?

01:14:36   It can look like that the other way that the same

01:14:38   Performance from Alec Guinness can look is you don't want to tell kid what happened to his father especially his father died like

01:14:44   Don't ask me about your father. I gotta tell you that you know he was killed by Darth Vader, and it's unpleasant and

01:14:50   The same performance read like either one of those things reads on it perfectly obviously the one with hindsight

01:14:57   You're like oh, it's totally that performance, but it could also just as easily be a little kid

01:15:01   Just asked me about his father, and I know this father was killed. He didn't he didn't die peacefully in his sleep

01:15:07   He was killed by Darth Vader. Darth Vader's a bad guy. He's leading those people who are you know like it reads that way as well

01:15:13   I don't know if Lucas told Alec Guinness by the way when Luke asks about what happened to his father

01:15:18   You're going to be essentially lying even if I can't tell you what did happen to his father what you're gonna

01:15:22   Tell him isn't the truth so play

01:15:24   I get the feeling I get the feeling that Lucas made up Vader being his father in the second one

01:15:29   And I get the feeling that

01:15:31   He just went back in so many things in Jedi. I feel that he just went back to the well

01:15:36   He made another Death Star.

01:15:38   Like that, even as a kid, I found that kind of boring.

01:15:41   But it makes a nice circle.

01:15:43   Like, again, I was thinking of a new hope when 3PO is going to the oil bath.

01:15:48   And I forget, Luke is talking to him or whatever.

01:15:51   And he's like, you know, I'm just a protocol droid and not very good at telling stories.

01:15:55   Like, throw away lines like that that get paid off two movies later.

01:15:58   I'll give you that one.

01:15:59   I agree.

01:15:59   I agree.

01:15:59   But I do think that he shoehorned Leia into being part of the Skywalker family in Jedi

01:16:08   because I think he felt that he needed the reveal that was akin to the Wannian Empire.

01:16:12   - But yeah, but he did, in Empire, he said, "No, there is another." So he's got to pay off

01:16:17   "there is another." I'm glad he didn't leave that dangling. The fact that the another is Leia...

01:16:21   - That's true.

01:16:21   - Nah, it's mostly immaterial, unless they build on that in episode seven or something.

01:16:25   It's mostly immaterial. It's like basically, he says there's another, which means that like,

01:16:29   Basically that's there to let you know that Luke could conceivably die an empire and he came pretty darn close to dying like

01:16:34   To make you think guess what guys I'm willing to kill off a main character because there is another right and just so happens

01:16:40   It turns out that he lives and in a Jedi way find out who the other is

01:16:43   But it's mostly inconsequential because hey Luke is alive Luke again if Luke had died a Jedi then the other would be

01:16:48   What we would be hanging our hat on for the future

01:16:50   Well, I mean the concept the consequence is that it makes Luke go

01:16:57   Ballistic and ultimately defeated Vader through anger, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean it was it was worked into the movie

01:17:02   It's just like talk about making it up as you go along. I'm willing to believe that like having

01:17:08   Vader turn out to be his father fine that works but how many surprise familiar relationships are you allowed in a trilogy?

01:17:14   Right, yeah by saying oh and guess what another main characters also related to you really is everybody related to me

01:17:20   Yeah, it could have been it didn't have to be a sister

01:17:24   It could have just been that Leia was the the other one. Yeah

01:17:27   Late late and untapped force right and what's next when I say Darth Vader made c3p out come on. It's ridiculous

01:17:33   And actually he does exactly that yet don't listen. I talk about that

01:17:37   But he does he does like do the the Vulcan mind chat with with Leia as her escaping best man

01:17:44   yeah, no, I think this the who the other is and

01:17:47   The fact that they can have their relate that communication with each other is either

01:17:52   They related or the both Jedi's are both and either one would be semi-plausible because there's plenty of movies

01:17:57   You're like, oh, I just feel that my non magical movies like I have some somehow a feeling that my my brother is in a terrible

01:18:04   Car, you know people totally buy into that stuff especially

01:18:06   In this movie we have established

01:18:09   Telepathic links between people even when one of them is dead like the first movie

01:18:13   Ben is in his ear saying, you know use the force of the Kubernetes

01:18:17   So as soon as he's communicated telepathy with Leia like I guess she's the other

01:18:21   See and I think and if you look remember the original posters and it's like the even the Star Wars logo is a little different

01:18:28   It may be even a lot different. It's still got like the connected letters, but it's like in a different almost like a pyramid shape

01:18:34   And it's like there's it's a lot more stylized

01:18:39   It doesn't I don't know that any of the characters quite look like likenesses of the actual actors

01:18:43   But Luke is holding his lightsaber above his head his chest. He's got his big chest coming out. Yeah

01:18:50   Lay is wrapped around his leg it it to me that that poster gets authorized

01:18:57   Because it's a tale of this

01:18:59   Boy from a farm which is what it ended up being who goes on this grand adventure and gets the girl

01:19:06   Well, he rescues the princess. He rescues her I swing across the canyon on a rope together

01:19:11   Like she gives him a kiss for that for luck and then there's the famous kiss in on Hoth in

01:19:17   By that time you're doing actual romance and the first movie was so gentle

01:19:21   It's like yeah, even Disney even Disney movie has like Belle kiss the beasts and the lips at the end

01:19:26   There was nothing like it's Star Wars. There's no kissing on the lips

01:19:28   It's just like all kind of it's understood that Luke has saved the princess

01:19:33   Nothing is you know, nothing is as sexual though as that poster, right?

01:19:38   And you know because that was the way they did movie posters

01:19:41   like you had to promise even if there's no actual sex in the movie you have to promise there's gonna be a guy there's gonna

01:19:46   to be a girl and the girl is going to be a submissive princess who wraps herself

01:19:49   around the hero's leg and the hero's chest is gonna be gigantic I mean Mark

01:19:52   Hamill's chest is not gigantic but on those posters it's busting out of his

01:19:55   white tunic you know it's the way they advertise things. I'm looking at it now and and if

01:20:02   I'm correct and Han Han and Chewie I don't think are even in it it's you know

01:20:07   there's a big Vader behind him but it's Han it's it's Luke and Leia and the

01:20:14   droids yeah and it's a good call what they like if you're gonna if you're

01:20:17   gonna call an audible it's a good call it's the reason Empire is so great it's

01:20:21   because after the first movie you've got you know the childhood fairy tale we're

01:20:24   gonna save the princess Luke gets to swing across the canyon with her they

01:20:28   all get medals at the end Leia gives them a special smile during the medal

01:20:31   ceremony it's appropriate for like prepubescent boys who understand the

01:20:35   concept of getting the girl or whatever but once you're about to make the second

01:20:39   movie, you say, you know what? You know, Leia, actually, the

01:20:44   bickering Leia did with Han is a better indication of a budding

01:20:47   romantic relationship than anything that happened between

01:20:49   Leia and Luke. And that is a much more interesting

01:20:51   relationship. So why don't we go in that direction for Empire and

01:20:54   they did and it was smart. And again, it doesn't have to be

01:20:56   Luke's sister to do that. Because that that is the actual

01:20:59   relationship with chemistry. Right? chemistry between Luke

01:21:02   and Leia for the second movie to build.

01:21:04   You could, well, I don't know about at the time when I first

01:21:07   Probably not because I was very young, but you can tell when she kisses Luke that it's basically just to get at Han, right?

01:21:15   Like it's got very little to do with kissing Luke.

01:21:19   And Luke is not ready to handle it. Luke is like putting his hands behind his head going, "Oh, a girl kissed me!"

01:21:25   It's like that's, you know, it's, it's... And Han is, you know...

01:21:29   Yeah, but he plays it cool. He's like, "Yeah, take care, kid."

01:21:31   kid. Luke is not, Luke is, as far as we know, Luke hasn't even had a girlfriend here, whereas Han

01:21:37   is, you know, is worldly wise and, yeah, like he's wise enough not to... There is chemistry between the...

01:21:43   He doesn't, he's not even upset with Luke or anything, he's just like, okay, well, she wants,

01:21:48   basically he's resigned that she won that argument. Right, but it's still the two of them.

01:21:53   He still knows it's the two of them and Luke is just a bystander. That's exactly it, that's,

01:21:57   That's the way he plays as a guy.

01:21:59   - And Luke does not spend any part of Empire

01:22:01   pining over Leia or thinking about Leia

01:22:03   in as anyway, except for a friend.

01:22:05   Like when he's having these trances on Dagobah,

01:22:06   he's like, "Oh, Leia, like in terms of his friends

01:22:09   that he's gotta save, Han, Leia,

01:22:11   he's got to go save his friends."

01:22:12   He is not, he's not hung up on Leia at all.

01:22:15   - Right.

01:22:15   - Speaking about sort of the beginning part of Empire,

01:22:20   what I loved, 'cause I, you know,

01:22:22   after we decided we couldn't do this,

01:22:24   of course I watched them all over again,

01:22:26   The story of Han in the first one ends with him basically turning around and saving the day, right?

01:22:34   Or at least helping Luke save the day. And then we come immediately into Empire Strikes Back

01:22:40   and we keep building on that. As soon as he finds out that Luke is out in the cold,

01:22:46   he's willing to die to go get him. The character progression starts exactly where it ended.

01:22:52   Han had already decided that like no he's all in he's committed to saving like these people are his friends and he's gonna go help them

01:22:58   And we don't we don't we don't repeat the arc. You know we don't need to repeat the arc

01:23:03   It's like immediately. He's jumping on his taunt on and

01:23:06   Seeing people in hell there's a continuation of the arc of like he's being chased because he's got a price on his head like we know

01:23:11   There's there's that yeah, but he but he but we don't see him being that the scandal to his friends anymore like he's completely dedicated

01:23:17   Oh, yeah, no, he goes out he goes out he goes out for luke and when uh the imperials attack the base

01:23:23   He immediately goes to get leya and try to try to get it out

01:23:26   Like that's the first thing he does like there's and we've had time removed because the the end of a new hope and the beginning

01:23:32   Empire there's a substantial amount of time during which there's more skirmish like that. They've been to war together

01:23:37   So now they're essentially not just friends, but war buddies. Yeah, there's hijinks in there. There's a word mandel

01:23:43   Well, exactly, but that to me is like the brilliant that's like Star Wars at its best is the Ord Van Delft story where it's just

01:23:49   They just mention it. It's a cool sounding name

01:23:51   You know something happened, you know, there's just this in in the in the quickest way possible simply through dialogue

01:24:00   They just imply and it feels genuine that they've been through some shit in between the two movies and we haven't seen it

01:24:06   And it reminds you that bounty hunters exist in the universe which comes in later right and thereafter

01:24:13   Yeah, all right. I think I can't I could do a whole show just on Empire because I think Empire

01:24:18   Yeah, I think Empire is what what holds the whole thing together

01:24:22   I think Star Wars was clearly, you know, the original one was a huge sensation. It was the biggest pop cultural

01:24:28   You know

01:24:30   Movie of the whole series nothing is ever going to top that

01:24:32   But the one that makes it something that we're gonna keep hoping for sequels that are good is Empire

01:24:38   I mean how when when else has there been a sequel that is?

01:24:42   You know as good or better than

01:24:45   The mine aliens aliens, here's the thing about maybe aliens, but here's the thing about Star Wars versus Empire

01:24:53   Empire took it to another level like it's not just because the Godfather one and Godfather two are at the same level

01:25:00   They're both the same kind of movie their movies for adults. They're serious

01:25:03   They are there

01:25:04   They're aiming for the same type of things and the fact that Godfather 2 was just as good and some people might say better

01:25:09   But they're still the same.

01:25:10   "Star Wars," "New Hope" is like kind of more of a kids movie.

01:25:15   Again, the romance is not real romance.

01:25:17   It's very simplified.

01:25:18   It's very sort of fairy tale.

01:25:22   It aged right along with the kids.

01:25:24   And "Empire" is like, actually, we're

01:25:25   going to take this even more seriously.

01:25:27   And not in a everything is gritty,

01:25:29   Tim Burton's Batman or Dark Knight or Batman begins.

01:25:32   Like, everybody's got to be dark and gritty or whatever.

01:25:34   Just say, we're going to have real emotional stakes.

01:25:36   We're going to have relationships

01:25:38   that read as true to adults, right? So it will, and kids will pick up on the fact that the

01:25:43   relationship between Han and Leia is a more legitimate adult relationship than anything that

01:25:49   took place in A New Hope. And that's why it stands out. It's like, it's taking it to the next level.

01:25:54   Yeah, I loved your observation, probably on the incomparable, in fact, I'm sure it was, that

01:26:04   Han and Leia kiss on the Falcon and then they get interrupted but when they end up in in cloud city

01:26:09   And she's think they're there. They're in that sweet that they're being hooked up on

01:26:14   It's kind of I never thought of it before but you had the observation that it's clearly that slept together by that point

01:26:21   This is just their demeanor together like there's so much more like

01:26:25   Relaxed around each other and a release of tension. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're just like pretty chill with each other and yeah

01:26:31   Yeah, the way they relate to each other is that finally so much more?

01:26:34   You know is will will they won't they the answer was that they will and they did and now they can relate to each other

01:26:40   Directly without because they're so guarded with each other before kind of like you know that they're trying to guard themselves

01:26:45   But not reveal too much of themselves

01:26:47   But show that they want to get together and like and eventually that settles down and they can finally

01:26:52   Relate to each other directly without sort of the artifice of like and it happens it happens off camera and all you see is like that

01:27:00   Just the familiarity and like that. They're still teasing each other, but it's so much

01:27:05   There's less tension going on, you know up until then nothing that they've said to each other is actually what either one is actually feeling

01:27:12   Exactly, right. Yeah, except maybe

01:27:15   The oh you you do have your moments not many but you do have them yeah

01:27:26   about the fact they slept together where they believe both me and Dan Morin as

01:27:29   Often happens had the same thought at the same time in that podcast

01:27:32   Yeah, but Hans whole take up until then is I could take you would leave you and

01:27:38   Which isn't true. He's obsessed and her angle is I'm not interested in you at all, which is not true

01:27:43   She's interested even though she knows she shouldn't be right. Like if there's a line that that is honest. It's her. I like nice men

01:27:51   Yeah, I'm nice man

01:27:55   But that's so basic

01:27:57   That brings us to to me. What was the great thing about Empire was that it seemed as though George Lucas

01:28:03   recognized his weaknesses and recognized everything that would could have been improved in the first one and

01:28:11   then did they either took action to rectify it or or

01:28:15   Delegated so for example stilted character dialogue. Guess what George Lucas very creative at making stories create a brilliant

01:28:24   Seriously brilliant world builder probably I would argue the most brilliant

01:28:28   Cinematic world builder we've ever seen like you could argue that the Lord of the Rings is a more fully realized world

01:28:36   Yeah, but that's big something but that's a novel. It's not cinema. You know as a purely cinematic world

01:28:41   I would say he's unparalleled. Guess what? He can't write dialogue. What was the Harrison Ford line George?

01:28:47   She can't say we can't you can write this but you can't say it. Yeah, you can write this but you can't say it

01:28:52   So he brings in two great screenwriters Larry Kasdan who I guess yeah did Raiders came first

01:28:59   did great work on Raiders

01:29:02   which is a fantastic story and has

01:29:04   fantastic dialogue and a fantastic relationship between Harrison Ford and

01:29:09   Marion yeah, well Larry Kasdan second and ladies

01:29:13   Right. Yeah. Well and with the talk about legend the Lee Brackett, right?

01:29:18   who wrote stuff for

01:29:21   for Humphrey Bogart and you know from that whole era from the 40s those 40s film noir

01:29:31   which is great and that's what you know now that I'm older I mean obviously in 1981 when

01:29:36   it came out I had not seen the Maltese Falcon you know I thought black and white movies

01:29:41   were for you know old people but now that I have like a richer film vocabulary and I've

01:29:46   seen movies like that. That's what The Empire Strikes Back crackles with.

01:29:51   They threw away most of that script though like and the spirit of it

01:29:54   still embodies it like but in the big Empire, Making of Empire book by what

01:29:59   Risner or something like that the big giant coffee table book about Making of

01:30:02   Empire which is great I recommend everybody reading that made me feel like

01:30:06   that Lucas picked these people who are amazingly talented who'd work with

01:30:10   before or new or you know like he picked he picked people who whose work he

01:30:14   admired. And then when they said about doing things, either he was disengaged from it, or if

01:30:18   he was engaged, the feeling that I got from him is like, guys, it doesn't have to be that good. Like,

01:30:23   that he would be fine with it if it was like, that they were, they wanted to make it the best

01:30:27   it could possibly be. And if it, up to him, he'd be like, you guys don't need to argue, just go home.

01:30:31   Like, what you've got is fine. Like, for today, yeah, that's fine. Whereas the people actually

01:30:34   involved in making the movie were just like, we're going to make this as good as we can possibly make

01:30:39   it. And they were arguing with each other about every little thing, right down to the actors of

01:30:42   Harrison Ford arguing about Hans' motivations and what he would say in the scene of like

01:30:46   very collaborative, very contentious, aggressive filmmaking on the part of actually making the

01:30:51   movie and that Lucas would be like, "It's just a kids movie guys, just chill." Like you don't,

01:30:56   it's not that like, if Lucas was more involved, he would not have been pressing people to,

01:31:01   and we see what happens when he did have the say over everything that gets involved,

01:31:04   it's like what he cared about deeply was like the design of the ships and the computer graphics and

01:31:11   stuff like that and what he cared less about was like dialogue, story, acting performances,

01:31:16   you know all that type of stuff. So anyway, I'll take a time out for a sponsor break but anybody

01:31:23   who's looking for some good older movies to watch could do worse than some of the ones that

01:31:28   Leigh Brackett worked on the screenplay for. Going backwards in time and just looking at her IMDb

01:31:34   credits, some of the ones that I've seen that I know or stand out. The Long Goodbye from 1973,

01:31:40   that was a

01:31:42   Robert Altman movie but to make a Philip Marlowe detective story set in the 70s starring

01:31:49   What's-his-name the guy from Oh Elliot Gould from

01:31:54   Young kids will know him from oceans 11

01:31:57   Like a 70s take on a 40s film noir, which was awesome

01:32:06   Probably my one of my favorite Westerns ever made Howard Hawks Rio Bravo you guys ever see Rio Bravo. Yeah

01:32:11   Oh my god. It's one of the best movies ever seen Dean Allen are nothing Alan Dean Martin plays alcoholic

01:32:19   Sheriff you don't say

01:32:22   But it's actually to me like a pretty interesting take on

01:32:26   alcoholism in a kid's

01:32:29   action movie, you know with John Wayne as his boss great great great movie and

01:32:34   the big sleep from 1946 with

01:32:37   Humphrey Bogart and

01:32:40   Lauren Bacall

01:32:43   Lauren come on

01:32:45   That's probably the wife. You're only gonna watch one of the ones I just listed watch the big sleep

01:32:48   And I know you're right they didn't use a lot large parts of her script, but it definitely infused the

01:32:55   dialogue of Empire Strikes Back

01:32:58   All right second sponsor let me thank our good friends at

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01:35:23   Yeah, and I know our friend Marco uses Fracture for his... he makes Fractures out of his app

01:35:32   icons. It hangs them on his wall, which I think is a nice idea.

01:35:35   Yeah, that's only useful if you come out with a new app every year, like Marco, and sell

01:35:39   the old one.

01:35:40   Yeah, but it's a cool idea. I like it.

01:35:41   Yeah, it is cool. I've heard other people say that, that they do that. Empire. We could

01:35:48   go on and on about Empire but it's there's almost no wasted exposition

01:35:52   you're just like you said you're thrust back in this world it feels like yes

01:35:56   some stuff has gone on but the characters are on this exact same arc

01:35:59   that they were before I always use this word I and to me it epitomizes the sense

01:36:05   of camaraderie between the heroes of the original trilogy it's this palpable

01:36:11   sense of camaraderie which I think is so hard to capture in movies I feel like TV

01:36:17   Shows do a better job of it because can do a better job of it because they have so much more time

01:36:22   Right if you watch Mad Men for six seasons

01:36:25   There's a camaraderie between Roger and Don because they've been through so much together because we've seen them through

01:36:32   You know, I don't know a hundred and forty hours of television

01:36:36   Whereas it for Star Wars to have gotten to this palpable sense of camaraderie between these characters that you truly believe

01:36:44   after just you know

01:36:47   two hours and 15 minutes of

01:36:49   Film so far when Han says, you know, they say you're never gonna survive the night and he goes well

01:36:55   Then I'll see you in hell and he goes out. You just believe it. I believed it as a kid

01:36:59   I'd still it chokes me up

01:37:00   I get a lump in my throat when not when he does that when I watch that because I feel to me like it's the

01:37:05   it's not just

01:37:07   Serving the story. It's that's what this guy would do. Yeah, of course. He's going of course

01:37:11   He's like what else is he gonna do?

01:37:13   And the way you build that camaraderie is you have to have the people, the ensemble cast, you have to have them

01:37:19   not sort of

01:37:22   come together and just be friends from the beginning and go through. You need to have them be like at odds

01:37:27   over certain things and have them butt heads about those things and come, not so much resolve those things,

01:37:33   but come to an understanding about those things. Whatever things they disagree on.

01:37:36   I'm totally into the force and think it's great. You think it's hokey. I'm with the rebellion

01:37:42   you're not so sure about it, I'm a hothead, I'm more calm.

01:37:47   Whatever personality traits that don't mesh,

01:37:51   you have to show them clashing,

01:37:53   and then you have to show that they,

01:37:54   through the other things that become more important,

01:37:57   they come to an understanding about those differences

01:37:59   and become friends.

01:38:00   And then you also need to have them go through things,

01:38:02   like John said about madmen,

01:38:03   you have to have them go through the moment

01:38:05   where they succeed in business, fail in business,

01:38:07   where one person is vulnerable because he's drunk

01:38:09   and says something, the other person to have

01:38:11   one or two true moments between people and have like,

01:38:14   you could even have on a TV series,

01:38:16   you could have a misunderstanding or betrayal

01:38:18   that eventually, you know, they figure out how to work out.

01:38:21   Like you have so much more time to have those things,

01:38:24   but in Star Wars with the ensemble cast,

01:38:25   in the first movie, you throw these guys together.

01:38:28   They don't know what to make of each other.

01:38:29   They probably never seen anybody like each other.

01:38:31   And there's other characters in the mix and that, you know,

01:38:33   that Obi-Wan is there and Han is just, you know,

01:38:36   gonna do a job, but you know,

01:38:38   it kind of feels for these people.

01:38:40   The old guy's weird and he dies and they're both there when the old guy dies

01:38:43   Like you have to have that right?

01:38:45   I think the problem with a lot of ensemble movies the more modern ones is you throw together this group of attractive personable

01:38:50   Well-adjusted smart witty people and they just kind of walk parallel to each other side by side through the plot and that does not build camaraderie

01:38:58   Yeah, like hon

01:39:00   It's very clear out because I just watched a new hope recently and it's very clear, huh?

01:39:04   Hon when he first meets them, he just doesn't even believe him

01:39:08   He doesn't believe he doesn't know what the hell kind of trouble they're in

01:39:10   But he it's just his his cynical self thinks whatever problem whatever it is

01:39:14   They want me to take them to Alderaan for it's no big deal. They're telling me it's the Empire. I trust me

01:39:19   I've seen trouble with the Empire. This is bullshit. Yeah, he doesn't believe I'm gonna until the two starters for show up and he's like

01:39:24   Oh, yeah, okay

01:39:25   actually did you know in the cantina all he's thinking about is ripping them off right and

01:39:30   vastly overcharging him

01:39:36   episode about Empire. So Han is doing the thing where he's talking to them and you know negotiating the price and Luke is being not a

01:39:42   good negotiator and Obi-Wan's trying to you know, tell him to calm down and work it out, right?

01:39:46   They both leave the table. What you're left with at that point, I think at that point you had seen Han

01:39:50   I forgot if you've seen him with Greedo or not yet

01:39:52   But anyway, you saw Han dealing with these guys as like I've got a fast ship here or whatever as soon as they leave the table

01:39:57   He talks to Chewie person to person with his true self

01:40:01   These guys must really be desperate and at that point when you see him talking to Chewie with his true self

01:40:05   you realize this guy's not such a hard ass, right? He clearly cares for Chewie, they have

01:40:11   a real relationship with each other. He doesn't talk to Chewie like hired help, he doesn't

01:40:16   have this bluster and everything with Chewie, so you know that there's a heart of gold inside

01:40:20   this scoundrel. So that's set up from the very beginning, and that's how it works out.

01:40:25   It's not like this guy is a hard ass and then suddenly turns over a new leaf. The whole

01:40:30   movie he has this conflict about, "I have to show that I'm tough on the outside, but

01:40:34   the inside I'm a sensitive soul.

01:40:37   There's a great--go ahead, John.

01:40:39   Well just also the sense that he's in some financial trouble to some bad, you know, some

01:40:44   bad people.

01:40:45   And he's scared about it.

01:40:46   Yeah, Guito comes almost immediately after this, after the stormtroopers show up and

01:40:51   then the next time we visit Han, Guito's there.

01:40:56   There's a great scene like that.

01:40:57   And then he does the indie thing in that scene where he's like, "Don't have it with me."

01:41:00   That's kind of the sarcasm.

01:41:01   Indiana Jones and Han Solo blended a lot in my mind as a kid because there's a lot of crossover in terms of Harrison Ford playing

01:41:07   the kind of

01:41:08   You know gonna talk his way out of a jam type of thing

01:41:12   Like he'll fight his way out of a jam and he'll talk his way out of jam and he's able to do both and he'll switch

01:41:15   Between them based on the needs of the situation

01:41:18   So eventually he doesn't have to shoot Greedo, but he tries to talk his way out of it first

01:41:20   And if that doesn't work, he's setting up his shooting the way

01:41:23   Yeah, and I think what I'm getting my own self off point

01:41:26   But I think that's why it's okay that that Han shoots first

01:41:29   is that he really did try to get out of that without any trouble and only when it became ultimately

01:41:34   Really clear that Greta was just gonna shoot him

01:41:37   and as

01:41:38   storm say that sets up his moral journey in like that he is slightly more amoral the beginning of the movie because he's like I just

01:41:44   Care about he's trying to he's trying to put up a front that says I'm tough. I only care about myself

01:41:49   It's not true, but that's the front he's trying to put up. See you later

01:41:52   I don't care about your rebellion

01:41:54   He can't actually stick to that but he's totally willing to shoot first because that's what a tough guy

01:41:58   He's he's play acting the tough guy that he wishes. Yeah, he's cut his paints himself into a corner by being a tough guy

01:42:03   They didn't have to shoot the guy and so they should screed Oh like greed Oh a scum and like indie

01:42:07   Yeah, you know Indy shoots the guy with the sword in the street

01:42:10   Yeah, you don't feel a little bit of a hard ass because he's survived this long doing this job exactly

01:42:15   I think there's one

01:42:16   Just two seconds. There's one scene in Empire that I think really speaks to this

01:42:20   Aspect of Han which is he's already saved Luke and Luke's being

01:42:25   rehabilitated in that and it backed a tank and Luke is about to go out in this snow speeder to

01:42:29   You know try to slow down the the Imperial assault

01:42:33   Meanwhile Han is on top of the Falcon trying to patch it back up and

01:42:38   Luke says goodbye to Chewie and Chewie gives him a big hug

01:42:43   And then there's just no words spoken between between Han and Luke. They just kind of smile at each other and nod and it's

01:42:51   still it's it's

01:42:54   Luke kind of accepting Han's tough guy, outer shell.

01:43:01   Like, they can't actually say anything, but there's just such a good connection between them then that I love it.

01:43:07   I love that there was an intentional choice not to provide any dialogue there,

01:43:12   because I think anything you could have said would have just ruined it.

01:43:14   Well, he stops him when he's walking away.

01:43:16   Like, Luke was walking away.

01:43:18   It's like, well, I've got my hug from Chewie, I'm going to walk away.

01:43:20   And then Han basically stops him by yelling, hey.

01:43:23   But then after after he's gotten his attention, that doesn't need to be a big, you know, exactly.

01:43:27   It's kind of that's a macho.

01:43:29   They just just not. But it's not even that macho.

01:43:31   It's more like I think there is a line there that could be.

01:43:35   But it's like the line is not the line is not what they would say.

01:43:37   The line is not what George Lucas would write for them, which is take care out there because you are a good friend and I like you.

01:43:42   Yes. Yeah. It's something like take these or something.

01:43:45   It's maybe good luck.

01:43:46   But it's so it's so minimal.

01:43:48   But the way that they're communicating, it's not a tough guy thing.

01:43:51   It's more of like a good friend thing.

01:43:54   Do you know what I mean?

01:43:55   It's not like, yeah, like fist bump.

01:43:57   It's not that it's,

01:43:58   Well, no, it's the, it's the slight reveal of like bringing down that wall ever so slightly.

01:44:04   Exactly.

01:44:04   So they are communicating without that wall being in the way.

01:44:08   But if people looking on the outside, they don't see it's still a little bit of a macho thing because you can't show your emotions.

01:44:12   Yes, I take that.

01:44:14   But it's yes.

01:44:15   And it's an interesting contrast with Chewie, who is, I think, the actual toughest of the heroes.

01:44:21   and, you know, the one with the boars temper, and he's the one who just lets the hug fly.

01:44:26   He's in touch with his emotions when the doors close.

01:44:30   He wails because his friend is out there. He is much more able,

01:44:34   he's much more in touch with his emotions, does not feel the need to tamp them down like Macho Man.

01:44:38   Right, he always lets his emotions fly.

01:44:40   As Lato finds out.

01:44:41   I

01:44:43   Was just gonna say to me

01:44:48   Circling all the way back to earlier in the show when I said that I found indie for more disappointing than Phantom Menace

01:44:54   I agree with your assessment that the Phantom Menace had more

01:44:58   The hope that it would be good was bigger than the hope that indie would be good

01:45:03   My thought my line of thinking on that was simply though that Spielberg is still a very talented filmmaker

01:45:09   And I thought that meant you know, there was a good chance

01:45:13   It could still be a good movie. Whereas by the time Phantom Menace came out because of the special editions. I was already so

01:45:19   deeply pessimistic because

01:45:21   Almost everything I would say like nine out of every ten changes in the special editions was for the worse

01:45:27   Yeah

01:45:27   Yeah, and I just made me think this man George Lucas has lost his fucking mind and now he's gonna make a whole movie and I

01:45:35   To me everything that I thought would be go wrong because of the special edition to the original trilogy was exactly what went wrong with

01:45:42   the whole

01:45:43   Original trilogy so I will say this about Empire Strikes Back

01:45:46   It is the only one that survived being special edition and I think came up better for it in many ways

01:45:52   Yeah, I think the changes they made to Empire and special edition were pointless

01:45:56   They did not need to be made but because Empire was so perfect

01:46:00   So what can you do to it? Like, he had to fight to even find things to put in.

01:46:05   Like, "Well, when Vader leaves Cloud City, how does he get back to his starter store? We should see that."

01:46:09   So wait, that's stupid, but the running around--

01:46:11   That's the level of crap you see.

01:46:12   That is stupid, but the running around in the hallways of Cloud City makes it look nicer, because you can see outside.

01:46:17   I kind of like it when it was all white. But that was Lucas's whole thing, is like,

01:46:20   "What could I not do because of budget or technology or time or both?"

01:46:23   Like, "Well, I couldn't have things through the windows. I had to paint them all white, so I'll put stuff in the windows."

01:46:27   in the windows. I didn't like the stuff in the windows. I liked it being all white. When

01:46:30   I was a kid I didn't feel like, "Hey, why are the walls opaque?" I felt like this is

01:46:33   a weird futuristic looking set where everything is white. And when they changed it, it jumped

01:46:38   out to me.

01:46:39   Sure, but it didn't make it worse. It was the movie that didn't get worse for being

01:46:42   special editions.

01:46:43   It didn't get a pretty--because who cares about that? Like, it's a minor point. Like,

01:46:46   "Oh, we get to see them fly into Cloud City." Meh, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the

01:46:49   movie. It sticks out, you don't need it. But like, there was so little they had to do.

01:46:53   They weren't inserting entire new musical numbers, for example.

01:46:56   They weren't altering major plot points like having Greedo shoot at Han.

01:47:01   They didn't load up 20 more AT-ATs in the Hoth battlefield.

01:47:06   Right. They were like, "Oh, I wish I could have had more things going on in the Hoth

01:47:09   battlefield." No, the amount of things in the Hoth battle scene was appropriate. It was fine.

01:47:13   You don't need to have, "Oh, let's put a bunch of things in the background, too."

01:47:15   And then we have a whole other section where we fly around. It didn't need to be there.

01:47:19   Yeah, they cleaned up the mat lines. They added a few things here and there.

01:47:22   They showed the wamper arm getting chopped off.

01:47:24   The matte line thing that annoys me with that is, I don't know if you guys remember, but they redid the matte line.

01:47:30   So it wasn't called Special Edition, but they did a cleaned up effects version of it.

01:47:33   I don't remember what release it was for. Maybe it was for like VHS or maybe like, but they, they,

01:47:38   he did go back and clean up a lot of the worst of the optical matting.

01:47:41   And that was the approach, like, that's why I kind of had high hopes for Special Editions,

01:47:46   because it was kind of like, oh, it's going to be more of that stuff.

01:47:48   It's going to be like things that were limitations of technology at the time,

01:47:51   where the mat lines were super annoying or when there was something just clean that i don't know

01:47:55   if you remember better than the snow speeders used to be able to see through the cockpit into the

01:47:58   yeah yeah slightly translucent and you oh yeah make that if you can make it opaque now fine

01:48:03   because that's you feel like that's not changing the movie and it's a special edition and it's like

01:48:07   cleaned up but it's not like insert entirely new footage yeah yeah and i i remember and i believe

01:48:12   it too as i've read that uh with the mat lines on the spaceships like in the dog fighting

01:48:18   A new hope when it was theatrically shown originally they might it you might have able to squint and see them

01:48:24   But just because of the nature between projecting versus the home video transfer

01:48:28   They were nowhere near as noticeable a lot of it was really just that it was that the first home video transfer was too light

01:48:34   They blew out the blacks

01:48:36   Whereas everything looked it was a lot richer black. It wasn't like wow

01:48:40   I don't remember seeing those lines around the tie fader fighters when I was a kid West cuz you didn't really see him

01:48:44   Yeah, I'd buy that. Yeah

01:48:47   But anyway, that was my thing as I and to me nothing epitomizes it more than the Han shooting first

01:48:52   And I know it's a cliche. I know that it's like a super popular t-shirt, you know Han shot first

01:48:57   But I feel like it's one of those things that it it's a cliche because it really does it

01:49:03   It's a way to just put your finger on everything that's wrong with the special editions

01:49:07   because it seems to me it always and this is the way I put it is it's almost as though like if

01:49:12   George Lucas had sold Star Wars to Disney in 93 and then Disney did the exact same things

01:49:19   You'd be like, oh my god. This corporation doesn't know jack shit

01:49:23   It's like they don't even understand Star Wars and they're ruining this great thing

01:49:26   It's almost mind-boggling that it was all done by the guy who made it

01:49:31   Well, it's not my body. It makes sense to me because the guy who made it got older

01:49:35   It's the same thing that happened with the walkie-talkies in ET

01:49:37   It's like both people are like I'm I'm very well known for this famous movie now

01:49:41   Now I'm an older person and when I go back and look at the movie that I made when I was

01:49:44   a younger man, I feel differently about it.

01:49:47   And if I was making it today, I would make it differently.

01:49:49   And I feel it's too harsh for Han to shoot first because Han is a sympathetic character

01:49:54   and you start thinking of the children and I'm a father now or whatever.

01:49:56   And the whole lesson from this is fine, then make a different movie now.

01:50:01   This is the movie you made when you were a young man and this is a movie made by a young

01:50:06   man.

01:50:07   And when you go back and change that, that is the worst sin of the movies.

01:50:11   I know that you have changed.

01:50:12   If you have changed, make new art

01:50:13   that expresses where you are today.

01:50:15   But don't, and Spielberg,

01:50:16   the fact that his contemporary Spielberg

01:50:18   did the same thing with E.T.,

01:50:19   oh, it's too upsetting that the people chasing after E.T.

01:50:22   have shotguns, put a walkie-talkie in there.

01:50:23   That's how you feel now as a 50, 60 year old man,

01:50:26   it's fine, but you can't go back

01:50:27   and change the thing you made when you were a young man.

01:50:29   - Did he go back and change that back to guns at one point?

01:50:31   - Yeah, I mean, he was guilted into it

01:50:33   because he's also less stubborn than George.

01:50:35   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:50:36   He was like, yeah, that was--

01:50:36   - But it's the same impulse,

01:50:38   because the people who made the movies got older,

01:50:40   And they still had the creative control to say you know what I want to make a new version of this movie that better reflects

01:50:45   Who I am today, and it's like no make make a new movie for who you are today

01:50:48   That's the movie you made then when you were a different person, and it was a valid thing to be I

01:50:52   Agree with both of you. I think we're saying the same thing which is that you know the

01:50:57   You would have to write an entirely different scene to not have him shoot first because the thing if you if you've seen the film

01:51:04   Even once you can see that that he tries to talk his way out of it

01:51:07   He realizes he doesn't and there is no way out for him other than to shoot credo

01:51:11   Greedo is going to kill him right there over my dead body. Yeah, that's the idea

01:51:14   I mean and the thing is he's prepping for like he's he is a cagey person. He is prepping for that the whole time

01:51:20   He's like he's not gonna say

01:51:21   Oh after I fail to talk myself out of it then think of a plan B plan B is already ready plan B has to already

01:51:25   Be ready because that's how he lives this long in his business

01:51:27   It feels like a change that was mandated by like Disney corporate, you know

01:51:32   Like we we can't have a hero shoot first

01:51:36   Barely can be bothered to take out the blackface in their old movies

01:51:39   I would have just left the shooting first like that's fine. Well, I'm just upset about I'm just saying though

01:51:45   It feels like somebody outside the film who hadn't even seen it is just holding up a check lock a checklist

01:51:51   That says the heroes can't do this

01:51:53   It feels like it feels like somebody from like that. What is that thing the

01:51:55   Something parents Association people always write to the FCC to complain

01:51:59   It's like sort of like an old person who's like Oh kids these days and they're cursing and

01:52:06   baggy pants and we really need to quill this up and like it's that type of that

01:52:10   type of idea that older people who are uncomfortable with things that younger

01:52:16   people think are cool like because you know it's just it's just too harsh and

01:52:19   that character feels he was like Han Solo is is a lovable likable good

01:52:23   character and he would never do something that bad whereas a younger

01:52:26   filmmaker or anybody with more artistic integrity to say is good people do bad

01:52:29   things people grow the same reason you know that he grew he should have been

01:52:32   able to say this is what Han was like when he was younger and less wise and

01:52:36   you know and when I made the movie that's the character I made and now Han

01:52:40   is older and more wise and kinder and he has changed but you can't retroactively

01:52:43   go back and make yourself it's like retroactively going back in your own

01:52:46   life and making yourself not do stupid things when you're a teenager that's

01:52:48   part of who you are we haven't spoken much about return of the Jedi yet just

01:52:55   the opening where Luke you know it's sort of you know vaguely touching the

01:53:00   on maybe what a Jedi would do in terms of the dark side so that movie that

01:53:07   movie I think the more I watch it as I get older the more I like it really yeah

01:53:12   I don't love it and it's nowhere near it doesn't make me anywhere near as happy

01:53:15   as Star Wars or Empire does but I almost feel like I don't know how else I'm

01:53:20   nostalgic yeah okay well so I put it I put it above Star Wars for me just

01:53:26   because I feel like it is a more,

01:53:29   it's like, so Empire took it up to the next level.

01:53:31   Say here's a movie that's appreciated for all ages.

01:53:34   It has sophisticated story, emotion,

01:53:37   things for adults in it and also kids will love it.

01:53:39   So that brought it up to the adult level.

01:53:41   Jedi brought things back down a little bit

01:53:43   with the EOOC business,

01:53:44   but I feel like the culmination of the arc,

01:53:45   how this story ends, the whole angle of like Luke

01:53:48   doing something that movie heroes never do,

01:53:51   which is, you know, pacifism is the victory.

01:53:53   Like that never happened.

01:53:54   pacifists are wimps.

01:53:56   Nobody wants a pacifist.

01:53:57   You want John McClane to shoot the guy.

01:54:00   You want the cop who was guilty about shooting

01:54:02   a little kid. - And drop him off the roof.

01:54:04   - Right, yeah, and you want the cop who felt bad

01:54:07   or who couldn't pick up his gun again

01:54:08   'cause he accidentally shot that kid to get his gun back

01:54:10   and say, "Now I'm confident enough

01:54:11   "that I can shoot people again."

01:54:13   Like, pacifism never wins.

01:54:14   Can you think of any other movie anywhere

01:54:17   where pacifism leads to victory?

01:54:18   Again, it's kind of a-- - Gandhi.

01:54:20   - Vader does a thing.

01:54:21   Maybe Gandhi, like, but that's, you know,

01:54:23   You gotta dig pretty deep down.

01:54:26   That is the struggle at the end.

01:54:27   It is a sophisticated struggle,

01:54:31   an emotional struggle between Luke not giving in

01:54:34   to his anger and fighting Vader,

01:54:37   and the moment when Luke is winning the fight,

01:54:39   which is what you want the good guy to do in most movies.

01:54:42   Kids are rooting for the guy, beat the bad guy.

01:54:43   Good guy, beat the bad guy.

01:54:44   Good guy may be down for the count.

01:54:46   Good guy may be on the ropes, but he's gonna come back

01:54:47   and he's strong and he's gonna beat the bad guy.

01:54:50   When that's happening in Jedi, that's the bad.

01:54:53   You're like no Luke don't do that you bring little kids along on that journey because all little kids want is the good guy to

01:54:58   Beat the bad guy to bring little kids along to the point where they are sad when the good guy is beating the bad guy

01:55:04   I think it's a nice message. I think it's a message that is never ever seen and I think the sophistication of that culmination

01:55:10   Yes, they do blow up the Death Star again, but the sophistication of the resolution of the Luke Vader story

01:55:15   Elevates the rest of that movie silly walks and all okay

01:55:19   So I totally agree with you in terms of Luke's arc and yes, that is the most satisfying thing and it's ultimately it redeems

01:55:26   Vader and and Luke and and the space battle is good too. Oh, yeah. Oh my god

01:55:31   They don't make space battles like that

01:55:35   Yeah, it's not just a bunch of ships flying around you care about Lando by that point because you know him you care that he's

01:55:41   Flying someone else's ship, right?

01:55:43   You care like the the three fronts thing people down on the planet people in the space station Luke and the Death Star

01:55:48   The coordination between those three lines of action is I think very well done. I'm tempted to do in many other movies

01:55:55   I think is it you know it's in a modern device

01:55:57   It's like oh we see that all the time the multiple lines of action culminating around one thing

01:56:01   But this was an early occurrence, and I think the balance between those three plot lines is just very nice

01:56:06   So sometimes when they're on the you walk planet

01:56:08   You're not that interested, but at least it's all connected in a way that you understand and in a way

01:56:12   But what I don't like about it is

01:56:14   Sorry, John. I think I cut you off, but just well

01:56:17   I was just gonna say that it makes sense not scientifically not like if you really try to think it through

01:56:22   But if you just go with the flow of Star Wars level logic, it makes sense that all three things are simultaneous

01:56:28   Yeah, I mean just as a narrative

01:56:30   They're relying on each other like this this this cast that we've come to know and they've been with each other their ensemble cast

01:56:37   They're friends

01:56:38   They are spread out to be different missions for this final battle here and they're all relying on trailer

01:56:43   If Han doesn't get that shield down, they can't do the attack.

01:56:45   And if Luke doesn't defeat the Emperor inside there, it doesn't matter because,

01:56:50   you know, if he gets turned, then they could blow up the Death Star.

01:56:53   But then they have a problem anyway because the Emperor will survive.

01:56:55   The only person who kills the Emperor is Vader.

01:56:56   So all they're all depending on each other and they're all leverage of each other.

01:57:00   Like the Emperor saying, oh, your friends out there, you think they're,

01:57:03   we know about their plan.

01:57:04   They're screwed.

01:57:04   Like it all, it all connects nicely.

01:57:06   So I, so I completely agree with you that I guess the, the last third or at least

01:57:11   the second half of that movie is great.

01:57:13   We've got Akbar, he's amazing. The ship battle is great.

01:57:17   The surprise appearance of the bulk of the Imperial fleet, amazing.

01:57:22   The shield being up and all of those ships having to dodge, amazing.

01:57:26   Everything's great. I love it. And you're totally right about everything coming together.

01:57:30   Jedi for me starts out with the world's most inane Higgledy-piggledy plan of like,

01:57:38   like what the hell are you doing so you give you give the droids to Java and

01:57:44   you've got Lando embedded and then you hand over but then wait then you hand

01:57:52   over Chewbacca and then you try to get and solely released but here's what

01:57:59   hand but you back is already in the thing and then when it comes down to it

01:58:03   you you thought you were gonna get dragged over so like pit so that are too

01:58:07   DJ would be serving drinks and jettison at like a lightsaber to you so you can just had not as

01:58:12   It is the stupidest plan

01:58:15   They're outgunned right because the people are going after Han it's not the entire rebellion the entire rebellion is not coming down to me

01:58:21   No, no, no, it's just it's just it's right. And so they can frontal assault is not gonna work sure

01:58:26   So they seem to have planned ABC and D. So they have a lot of things going on here

01:58:31   They have people embedded there. They have the droids Luke goes there like he's planned

01:58:35   You know he's probably his primary plan is probably you know talk his way

01:58:38   We can get maybe we can get him out with these guys who are embedded if they can't send in Luke

01:58:42   But don't send in Luke with his lightsaber because if Luke gets screwed we need to have his lightsaber available so smuggle that into our

01:58:46   two right it's a lot of contingency plans and basically all their contingencies needed to be there because

01:58:52   everything goes wrong and they're at the brink of death and their final contingency was

01:58:57   Luke can get out of this as long as he has his lightsaber. We do have his lightsaber like yeah

01:59:01   I don't see them as contingencies. Yeah, so much as like we're gonna set up a bunch of things that may be useful and

01:59:07   Maybe it'll all work out like but that's a good opening scene. It's like a good bond opening scene. It's like yeah

01:59:13   That's exactly it's contrived. It's silly it goes on a lot longer than a bond opening scene

01:59:16   It is a little bit contrived

01:59:17   But you get to see first of all you've got to resolve the Han angle and get that out of the way

01:59:20   Yes of the movie and second of all it's it's like a series of fun action set pieces

01:59:25   It's it's like it's you know three bond ones you got the rank or you've got the the Sarlacc pit

01:59:31   And then you've got a lot of like intrigue with people in this guy Bob Bob affair sadly, sorry, John

01:59:35   I keep cutting you off. Well, the only Star Wars movie that doesn't have any scenes on Tatooine

01:59:40   empire, yeah, right and

01:59:43   Here they are back on Tatooine and instead of feeling at that time because at that point

01:59:48   50% of all Star Wars movies had scenes on Tatooine just you know half just the one here

01:59:54   It is it felt like a you know, he started on Tatooine

01:59:58   He didn't know shit about the force now. He's back on Tatooine and he's a Jedi. Mm-hmm and it felt like a

02:00:03   Another loop you're not just closing the loop on Han being kidnapped and frozen in carbonite. You're closing the loop on Luke's

02:00:10   You know childhood and my that sets up the rest of the arc of the movie though because he you saw him at the end

02:00:17   Of Empire and he is defeated his hand is cut off. He's a mess emotionally. He just found out Vader his father

02:00:23   He is at his low you see him in Jedi

02:00:25   I hear like who is this guy cuz last time I saw him he was drenched in sweat with his hand cut off and looking

02:00:30   Like crap now this guy is confidently strolling into here. I'm strangling people

02:00:34   Confidently going in and he's like super powerful like wow Lucas super powerful

02:00:40   I guess his his arc is done and you find out his arc is not done because what he's got to deal with now is

02:00:44   Oh, so you think you're the master of the force everything

02:00:47   You don't even know what the actual battle is against your nature of not using your newfound power is for evil

02:00:52   And that is the actual battle and that's why he goes back to Yoda and is like, "Oh, you think you're a Jedi? No, you have to face Vader."

02:00:57   Why does he have to face Vader? It's not like some trial.

02:00:59   Like, "Oh, you have to..." The understanding of it being as a kid is like, "You have to face Vader because when you beat him that shows you're the best guy."

02:01:05   "Because the best is the guy." No, you have to face Vader because you have to deal with the whole dark side angle.

02:01:10   Like, remember your failure in the cave. You have to face Vader to show that you really are on the light side of the Force and not the dark side.

02:01:17   The only way to do that is to test yourself against someone that you totally want to kill and not do it.

02:01:21   I agree with you guy that it logically

02:01:25   Probably should just gone in with the lights. Yeah, you know that the whole idea that instead of going in with the lightsaber

02:01:32   I'll smuggle it in our - and I'll just assume that if and when I really need it

02:01:36   He'll be in but he can't go with the lightsaber because if he's got to kill every man woman and child in Jabba's Palace

02:01:42   It's not like he's gonna run race out of there with a gigantic car

02:01:44   No, but he but he grabs somebody's gun and tries to blast jab in the face

02:01:49   That is not that is not Jedi stuff that is he's improvising at that point because he's trying to shoot an unknown guy in the face

02:01:56   That is not he's trying to negotiate his way out of the thing and they're like, oh actually we're gonna send you into the pit

02:02:01   And he tries to use the force to get out of it

02:02:03   It's like things don't go well for him isn't isn't that the first time in the movies?

02:02:08   We've because we you know, the whole the whole original trilogy is relatively light on Jedi action, you know

02:02:15   Yeah, it's the first time we've seen the Jedi mind trick not work on somebody

02:02:18   And that's where we learn that it only works on weak-minded fools.

02:02:23   Well no, actually I think Kenobi says it, the force can have a powerful influence on

02:02:28   the weak-minded.

02:02:29   Yeah, I mean the original trilogy is really good at paying off things in ways that movies

02:02:35   are not patient about now.

02:02:36   Movies today have something in the beginning of the movie and they're going to pay it off

02:02:39   by the end of the movie.

02:02:40   Very rarely do you have something in one movie and pay off in a second movie and the Star

02:02:44   Wars trilogy has tons of things in the first movie that do not get paid off until two movies

02:02:48   Which nobody has the guts to do anymore except for maybe like the big Marvel arcs now that they have I mean

02:02:53   But even that is like you're much more assured like they set up so much stuff in a new hope even Jabba the Hutt himself

02:02:58   Is set up in a new hope would have been in the movie they had the time or budget they didn't put him in the second

02:03:02   Movie he's in the third movie, right?

02:03:04   Yeah pay off that the debt that we from we first seen we meet Han Solo 40 minutes into a new hope

02:03:10   We don't pay it off until the third movie

02:03:13   To an empire right like I've got to assume that the guy I know what Mandel is sent by Java. Yeah. No they say that

02:03:19   Yeah, that's a death. What does he say the general says like a death sentence? Yeah

02:03:22   Yeah, they don't mention Java by name, but it's clearly

02:03:27   And I think Luke's idea that hey, I'll try the Jedi mind trick on it. Maybe this would be easy

02:03:33   Who would that have been dissatisfied if Java was like, okay?

02:03:37   You have to end up puncturing Luke's confidence because he comes in as a star-coated figure

02:03:42   Who could this be and like he works any super confident you will give Han Solo to me and like gradually things fall apart

02:03:47   Well, he gets passed out. He's like how we doing, you know, same as usual. Is that bad, huh?

02:03:51   Like at that point like his his confidence in buster has been pierced and he's back to the old likable Luke that who's like

02:03:58   Well, he's more powerful now, but things really aren't going well anyway

02:04:01   No, cuz he does get past the butler with that the Jedi mind trick, right?

02:04:05   And that's what sets up jabber to be like, oh, yeah fool you idiot like yeah

02:04:11   get his right hand to help, you know? Yeah. Yeah, his twisty-headed consigliere. Yeah,

02:04:15   I'm sure there's a name in people yelling at us right now, but whatever.

02:04:19   My only problem with the opening scene, which I agree pace-wise, even more than the battle at

02:04:25   Hoth, which is almost more of like an opening act because it involves everything from Luke,

02:04:30   you know, getting captured by the wampa and Han rescuing him to the whole battle,

02:04:35   to me that the the the Java scene pace-wise feels like a bond opening yeah thing my only problem

02:04:42   with that whole bit is the ignominious way that Boba Fett yeah it's his end no that's not good

02:04:47   it's not it's not talk about it it's a sign of things to come yeah I don't know how you can do

02:04:53   that what I think they do give him a Wilhelm which is a little nod of respect but other than that

02:04:58   Well, yeah, I don't I just don't understand

02:05:01   You know

02:05:05   They knew how cool he was. Why would you do that?

02:05:07   There's a lot more slapstick in Jedi

02:05:10   There's a lot more humor and slapstick stuff which I think for the most part works

02:05:13   But the fact that Boba Fett gets wrapped up in a slapstick joke and that ends up being his death is a shame

02:05:18   He's the only guy that can go toe-to-toe with the Jedi and he looks like he's gonna win like it

02:05:23   Yeah, and normally he's crafty and waiting for his moment. Like he's established as

02:05:28   as not the toughest bounty hunter, but the smartest, the street

02:05:31   exactly. An empire that establishes his character.

02:05:34   And he doesn't even get taken out by purpose. He gets taken out

02:05:37   by what like, yeah, like a blind hand.

02:05:40   He either should not have been there at all and just leave, you

02:05:44   know, he's not there. Or he should have gotten away. Well, I

02:05:47   mean, I'm okay with Luke cutting his gun in half because like,

02:05:50   well, you're up against a Jedi. Yeah, that can happen. I'm not

02:05:53   okay with the way he died. That's garbage.

02:05:56   But they made him even worse by having him basically be all into that musical scene that they added.

02:06:01   Like, they just keep making Bompafette more and more sad.

02:06:04   Well, in the original run, he just gives the little nod to the sexy girl dancer, which is totally a Bompafette thing.

02:06:10   Of course, yeah. That's badass.

02:06:13   But, yeah. And let's not even get into Jango Fett and the whole...

02:06:18   God, what a waste of a character.

02:06:22   Well, I you know and the only other thing I'll say about return of the Jedi is that to me the weak spot is the

02:06:27   whole thing on

02:06:28   the

02:06:30   Endor moon that third moon event like the whole the middle bit with the Ewoks

02:06:33   Yeah, it just doesn't live up and it's it's partly just that the whole Ewok thing was where the merchandising started getting out of hand

02:06:41   Because it was like have you guys heard this?

02:06:44   There's the I don't know, you know

02:06:45   You never know how much of this is apocryphal and how much is true but that the toys had already been put into

02:06:49   production before they made the costumes and the costumes were like just incredibly hot and

02:06:54   Just and it really limited the actors ability to move. That's why they just sort of waddle instead of walk. I

02:07:01   Hadn't heard that. I had heard that eventually was gonna be

02:07:05   The Wookie planet Kashi. Yeah. Yeah. Well, which would have been a lot cooler

02:07:10   Yeah, but your work is taking on a strong troopers. You can believe that

02:07:13   Right, and there's just a silliness to it that these little furry, you know

02:07:18   fit tall creatures are beating stormtroopers literally with rocks.

02:07:22   I do like that.

02:07:22   I do like the...

02:07:23   There is a good insurgent angle, like native people insurgent type thing,

02:07:27   but the Ewoks are one of those characters that are mostly

02:07:29   made for kids and don't have much value for adults.

02:07:34   I do like the notion that the Ewoks represent nature,

02:07:39   while the Imperial troops represent like some kind of technological terror.

02:07:43   Yeah, there's that obvious angle and there's also the angle of like an insurgent force

02:07:46   against a much more dominant military force than the fact that insurgents could

02:07:50   Native Americans versus you know during the Indian war.

02:07:56   The same type of territory that was trod much more seriously in Ballastar Galactica.

02:07:59   Yes.

02:08:00   I think that was an allegory for the Iraq war.

02:08:02   Yes.

02:08:02   And I feel like the other thing that was evident with the whole segment is that they had these

02:08:08   characters Han and Leia who we wanted to see more of and would they just they so we got these

02:08:16   scenes with them, you know, having this assault on the shield generator. Whereas the real,

02:08:23   what really mattered, what was left to really matter in the story was the other two angles,

02:08:28   which was the big space battle with the fleet, the two fleets fighting each other. And, you

02:08:34   know, and then primarily the Luke Vader emperor. Yeah, I mean, so the whole Endor thing, in

02:08:38   addition to being silly, just because they're little Ewoks, it really felt a little forced

02:08:44   because it's like well we just want more Han and Leia and we're never gonna see them again.

02:08:48   That was the gorilla action supporting the larger thing it's like you got to deactivate the shield

02:08:52   generator which is in a remote place you're going to send a small strike team because this is your

02:08:55   stealth mission that's why Luke doesn't go on it he's endangering the mission he shouldn't have

02:08:58   come because they could sense him and all stuff you get to have a speeder chase through the the

02:09:02   redwoods that's also a nice action scene there. It's brilliant. Yeah well it fits a lot better

02:09:07   than like the pod racing scene which is just this whole giant digression whereas the the the

02:09:14   speeder bikes and the moon was just a really cool action and the speeder bike is like uh you know

02:09:19   the whole idea is that stealth and so it's jammed their comlink with just a little yeah script he

02:09:23   used to say we want to have a chase scene and the stakes of the chase scene are as if you let these

02:09:27   guys escape they're going to tell the whole empire that you're down here never mind the emperor already

02:09:30   knows you're down here at that point the audience doesn't know that but there's a reason for the

02:09:33   chase scene there's a reason for the desperation it's basically hide and seek we don't want

02:09:37   The Empire to know we're down here some people start getting us the whole thing

02:09:40   You think you got them all then you see two other guys get off on speeder bikes

02:09:42   Then you got to jump on a speeder bike and make sure they don't get out of here

02:09:45   So one thing that used to bother me as a kid and only recently have I come around to the thought that maybe Lucas actually

02:09:51   This is like his last hurrah and he knew what he was doing and it's actually pretty good

02:09:55   Character development and screenwriting is it always bothered me as a kid that in Empire

02:10:02   Vader doesn't really want to hit and not even really just doesn't want to kill Luke

02:10:06   He wants to turn Luke and doesn't want to turn him for the Emperor

02:10:09   I think he truly and sincerely means it when he says join me and

02:10:14   Totally he meant that an empire to possess the whole no. No, it's only an empire

02:10:19   He doesn't even make the offer in return of the Jedi

02:10:22   You know

02:10:23   He just takes custody of Luke and at that moment where he takes custody of Luke and he and he takes his lightsaber

02:10:29   he says he was carrying this sir and he gives him his lightsaber and

02:10:32   It's the little I've said this before on other podcasts

02:10:35   It's one of my favorite little moments in all of the whole series is what does Vader do when he gets Luke's lightsaber?

02:10:40   Well, of course, he turns it on and he tries it out a little bit just waves it around feels the weight

02:10:45   It's like that's what like when I used to ride a skateboard when I was a teenager you get somebody else's skateboard

02:10:50   What do you do you take you know, you may not take it all the way around the block

02:10:52   You just try it out a little bit see what it's like, you know

02:10:55   Well, so the whole father-son angle like you're coming in the beginning like an empire

02:10:59   It's like oh my you're identifying with Luke like oh Darth Vader is my father. What a dramatic revelation

02:11:04   and I'm upset about it and so on and so forth.

02:11:06   By the time Jedi comes around, you're looking at it from the other direction.

02:11:10   Vader is going, "Luke is my--"

02:11:11   Obviously he's known as "Luke is always his son,"

02:11:13   but now he's like, "I've seen my son. This is my son."

02:11:15   If your son made a lightsaber, you'd be kind of proud of like,

02:11:18   "Hey, my son made a pretty good lightsaber here."

02:11:20   - You know, like-- - Your training is now complete?

02:11:22   If you are internally a, you know, a thinking, feeling person,

02:11:26   and you meet up with your son, like, those feelings are going to be there.

02:11:29   Like, the fatherly feelings are going to be there,

02:11:31   and that is the feeling that Vader has in Jedi.

02:11:33   You know there is no conflict, but there is and the conflict is that you know my son is actually pretty cool

02:11:37   And I I wanted him to join me in the last one

02:11:40   But that was me rationalizing my I can still be evil and still have my son here when it's clear that my son is

02:11:44   I'll never join you right clearly. He's not gonna join me

02:11:47   I'm not too gung-ho and kill him cuz I actually kind of like my son. He's actually pretty cool

02:11:50   He does some great things and I feel ashamed of the things that I've done in front of my son

02:11:54   It's too late for me son blah blah blah that

02:11:56   Conflict is present and because Darth Vader wears a mask for all of Jedi you get to be like is Luke like

02:12:02   Wishing that was there and it's not really in Darth Vader, you know and like many times like, you know father

02:12:07   We can he tries it right there on the in the scene and on Endor

02:12:09   He's like come with me father

02:12:11   We can go and like you get nothing from Vader's face mask because it doesn't change expression and you know

02:12:15   Is Luke totally wrong about Vader or is he right?

02:12:18   And they is that what is that when he is that when he turns Vader in or at least starts to turn him like he

02:12:22   Walks off the ad ad and just calls him father immediately

02:12:25   Yeah, no playing up the angles. That's a superpower move right like hi dad

02:12:30   - Yep, yep.

02:12:31   - Like, boom.

02:12:32   - And Vader is resisting it.

02:12:34   - The hole that I always thought I saw as a kid

02:12:36   was that why doesn't Vader make the same offer again

02:12:39   and just be like, look, I'll give you your lightsaber back.

02:12:41   Let's go kill this guy.

02:12:43   You and I have our differences.

02:12:44   We can sort them out after we kill some of the big jumpers.

02:12:46   - I think he's established by the hole.

02:12:48   You know, I was threatening to kill you.

02:12:50   I cut off your hand, I was threatening to kill you,

02:12:51   and you still turned me down.

02:12:53   Like, that's not gonna happen.

02:12:54   - Nope, and then watching it again in recent years,

02:12:56   I think that that's actually the way it plays out.

02:12:58   And it also fits with the way that Luke is clearly a more mature character and more composed

02:13:06   at the beginning, even just at the beginning of Return of the Jedi than he was.

02:13:11   That scene on Bespin in Cloud City, that was Vader's chance to turn him.

02:13:15   Well, just the fact that he surrenders willingly, hands over his lightsaber to the stormtrooper

02:13:21   patrol shows a resolve in Luke that I think Vader recognizes he won't be able to break.

02:13:29   - And also, Luke was optimistic. He thought he could turn Vader. He was right in the end,

02:13:33   but he thought he could turn. There is good in him, I have felt it. When did he feel it?

02:13:36   He felt it after the end of Empire when Vader... Basically, Vader could have killed him many times

02:13:41   and then he was trying to turn him. And then when Luke was going off, he's like, they're

02:13:44   communicating telepathically as father and son, right? That's the point where you feel there's

02:13:49   us some good in him because he is not communicating telepathically, "Boy, I'm gonna get you, Luke.

02:13:53   When I see you next time, I'm gonna kill you." It's like father-son across this distance.

02:13:56   Not only that, one of my favorite parts of Empire is when the Falcon finally jumps into

02:14:02   hyperspace. Vader doesn't kill anybody.

02:14:05   Yeah, Vader just turns around. He's too depressed, though.

02:14:09   There's two things. A, you did everything I told you to. You disabled the hyperdrive,

02:14:12   everything. It didn't work out. But my son got away, I'm kind of depressed, and I can't

02:14:17   even be bothered to murder anybody at this point.

02:14:19   - Yep, yep.

02:14:21   It's an emotional moment for Vader.

02:14:23   And again, we don't see emotion on his face

02:14:24   'cause it's just a mask and it never changes

02:14:26   and it's not even that much body language

02:14:27   but what you've got is--

02:14:28   - No, he just turns around and kind of walks off,

02:14:30   kind of dejected.

02:14:31   - The hothead that was constantly killing people,

02:14:33   the frustrated hothead that was constantly killing people

02:14:35   because he wasn't getting what he wanted,

02:14:37   he realizes that nothing could get him what he wanted to hear

02:14:39   because what he wants is his son to love him.

02:14:41   (laughing)

02:14:43   - For some reason, the helmet is oddly expressive

02:14:46   in a certain way.

02:14:47   I wonder if that's like lighting. It's a blank canvas, right?

02:14:50   Right, and and it's you know, I think it's all tied with musical cues, but it like in the whole first movie

02:14:56   It just looks like the most evil badass mask you can imagine and there are some differences

02:15:01   I know that in the next two it was a lot more polished like in the first one. He changes

02:15:05   And they had a problem in in the original one of getting the eyes to be completely black and opaque like sometimes there

02:15:13   They're a little bit lighter gray and it was a little bit danger Empire

02:15:16   I think is the best Vader because it is it is sleek and menacing but like you said also

02:15:21   There is more body language now

02:15:23   It's more expressive with like him reaching out with his hand doing all this stuff like he he's able to act more with his body

02:15:28   In Empire also in Empire his cape seems to not cover his shoulders a lot like you see those big massive shoulder pads a lot

02:15:36   More yeah, and it waves behind him and there's wind like you've got like the body language of Vader when you know the surprise dinner with

02:15:44   Orlando leaving them all open the door is that Vader standing at the head of the table both at how cool is it?

02:15:49   Han Solo yeah, everybody come on. Let's just get Han Solo tattoos. He knows he knows to goes law yeah proudest moment

02:15:55   It's so good proudest. He stands in front of layer and just start shooting. That's

02:15:58   That's what you do. That's it's that's the answer

02:16:02   so perfect

02:16:05   Doesn't work the best the best James Bond ones the best James Bond speaking trans bond like the best James Bond

02:16:10   sequences are the sequences in which

02:16:13   Bond does bond reacts in the appropriate way

02:16:16   Before the audience has time to think about what the appropriate way exactly because he's the one who's been in the situation many times for

02:16:22   And the only reason he's still alive is because he immediately knows what to do

02:16:24   Yeah, and there's not a lot of reaction shot

02:16:27   What should I do about blood bond as a man of action immediately?

02:16:30   We knows when it's the action is called for immediately goes into action and it catches the audience by surprise

02:16:34   That's the kind of that I like so that everybody wants on everybody wants to think they're good in a pinch

02:16:39   Yeah, but Han Solo is good in pain

02:16:41   But that's the only time I think we've ever seen that I don't know if it's the force or because he's a robot

02:16:46   But he just catches a bunch of laser bolts

02:16:49   Which is super super badass, but it's kind of this steady ramping up of what is possible with the force

02:16:55   Yeah, you know we knew that you could

02:16:57   Think we might have known you could block

02:17:00   Blaster bolts with the lightsaber, but he does it with his hands, and it shows that he's we don't we don't see that

02:17:05   We don't see that to legit. I actually yeah, especially like Yoda moves lots of stuff with his money

02:17:10   So that shows that it is powerful, but he's not teaching Luke karate moves or how to chop things.

02:17:16   There's not a lot of scenes on Dagobah where he's showing him fancy lightsaber moves.

02:17:20   This is how you chop stuff up.

02:17:21   It never does.

02:17:22   That's not what the Force is about then.

02:17:22   Yoda never changes.

02:17:25   So the dark side Force, what would you do with the Force if you were not in the Yoda school of

02:17:29   what the Force is all about?

02:17:30   And that could involve blocking things with your hands and in a third movie shooting lightning

02:17:35   bolts out of your hands.

02:17:37   We don't know where how far this this leveling tree goes

02:17:40   But I would almost say that it comes right out of like a horror movie where you don't you know

02:17:44   Like the monster can you just oh shit?

02:17:46   You can't even see this you empty you a gun right a vampire or the mummy or something. Yeah, nothing happens

02:17:51   It's like and what you want to show there is Han being a man of action and not going Vader

02:17:56   I knew I would find you because that's stupid to goes right right and also showing that Han may have that inclination

02:18:02   But he is not of the magic using grass and that like his everything he can do it is

02:18:08   It's like a child's toy now

02:18:10   He'll block a few things then take Hans gone and say please sit down because you you hon

02:18:15   That's something like why can't Han Solo go and fight Darth Vader? Why does it have to be Luke?

02:18:19   well the reason is because

02:18:21   Yeah, it's never been clear to me though

02:18:24   I'm not quite sure though if that that move of blocking the blaster with your hand because we never see that even in the Clone Wars

02:18:30   Where the general shot that?

02:18:32   I it might be because he's got robotic. That's what I was thinking. I'm not sure. I'm just gonna go with whatever

02:18:36   You think the force has to be involved? Yeah, I'm gonna go with it

02:18:39   Yeah, because it's the most powerful thing a little bit Vader do and fine

02:18:43   I'm gonna go a little bit column a little bit column B

02:18:45   It's both like maybe Vader's like the only guy who could yeah, maybe it would really screw up your hand if you had a real hand

02:18:50   but

02:18:51   Whatever, you know like either way you've got a robot

02:18:54   hand afterwards. As a small observation, this is such a small detail, but it seems as though

02:19:07   the advances in, what would you call it? What do you call it like when somebody gets an artificial

02:19:18   limb? Prosthetics. Prosthetics. Prosthetic technology advanced pretty significantly.

02:19:24   significantly in the 22 years. You think it's the only technology that advanced? It could have also been a fashion choice

02:19:29   Like one is try to make it look at most like a human hand and the other one is can you make me into a

02:19:34   machine of war? Yeah, that's two different goals. So wait, we're talking about the end of episode two, right? When he's got

02:19:39   Yeah, yeah, I'm not even talking about Vader. I'm talking about

02:19:42   Young Anakin, you know. That could also be a style choice too because it wasn't it was like steampunk

02:19:48   It was like well kind of brass and it was kind of like art deco steampunk kind of thing

02:19:53   which is a lot of the aesthetic of--

02:19:55   - Like Luke went to a nice cosmetic surgeon.

02:19:57   - Yeah, yeah, he got a real hand.

02:19:59   His poor old pappy got like a steam engine

02:20:04   attached to his wrist.

02:20:05   - How are we doing on time?

02:20:07   I know that it's getting late.

02:20:08   Can we have 15 more minutes?

02:20:10   (upbeat music)

02:20:12   (upbeat music)

02:20:15   - Yeah, for sure.

02:20:32   Do you gotta do another sponsor?

02:20:33   - Maybe I do.

02:20:36   At the very least I want--

02:20:37   - You run the show.

02:20:39   - At the very least I want John to get a good night's sleep

02:20:42   before going to work.

02:20:43   - Oh yeah. - No work tomorrow.

02:20:45   You don't work tomorrow?

02:20:46   - No, I get off.

02:20:47   - Well then we can go on. - Oh man, okay.

02:20:48   We got another couple of hours, yeah.

02:20:50   - All right, well, let me take one more break

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02:24:17   slash the talk show

02:24:18   of slash talk show no that

02:24:21   even i got that

02:24:23   so that brings me to a point here's a point i wanted me it's a funny time but

02:24:27   i wanted to make this before we wrap up the show

02:24:30   One thing that Star Wars does, and I think it's a good thing, but it doesn't really make any logical sense,

02:24:36   is there just always been very hand-wavy yada yada yada dot dot dot

02:24:42   about how long it takes to get from one planet to another in hyperspace.

02:24:48   It's seemingly a big deal to get from Tatooine to Alderaan because they have to pay

02:24:53   10,000 credit 10,000 credit 17,000 and it's enough that Luke says we could almost buy our own ship. It's you know

02:25:00   But how long is it nobody changes their clothes, you know, they do the movie is not about long space flights

02:25:09   So that's not an important part of the movie needs to be in there

02:25:11   And all you got to do is make it seem like a really long car trip because that's what people can relate to

02:25:15   It's gonna be like a really long car trip guys

02:25:17   And then that's how much time you have in terms of time passing in the movie

02:25:20   That's how like well if you're in if you're in some town in the middle of nowhere and you want to get to the big

02:25:24   City, you got to somehow get there either by doing a long car trip or taking a bus or train or something like that

02:25:29   I guess it's not a lot of public transportation the galaxy, but if you're gonna have any galaxy spanning civilization

02:25:33   You just got a hand wave travel time. Yeah, and there is some notion of that

02:25:37   Tarkin does not want to blow up down to in because it's too remote to make an effective demonstration

02:25:43   Yeah, I don't know what the media situation is

02:25:45   Yeah, like it's far far away, but the media situation is again, you know

02:25:49   If we're gonna say that Tatooine is remote, like they don't have any kind of

02:25:52   Galactic media that is sort of giving any sort of shared like they're not all watching Space Seinfeld together

02:25:58   They're not all on the same page in terms of culture. They're not listening to the same songs

02:26:02   They're not interested in news about what's going on in the other systems

02:26:05   If you're a remote enough system, you could be like rebellion Empire doesn't really affect me

02:26:10   We're kind of in a lawless planet run by the huts anyway, so no big deal

02:26:13   It's more like the entire galaxy is about the size of the United States and it's in the United States

02:26:18   It's like in the pre-Interstate Highway Age.

02:26:22   Tatooine is like Arizona, Nevada maybe.

02:26:25   You got the Wild West.

02:26:26   It's a little bit of the Wild West.

02:26:27   You got what's going on with the big city and there is organized crime and maybe there's

02:26:30   prohibition and that type of communication delay.

02:26:34   You guys and your American-centric line of thinking.

02:26:38   But yeah, I tend to agree.

02:26:40   Is there a sister in Canada?

02:26:41   I don't know.

02:26:42   What about this timeline?

02:26:43   This timeline to me is all...

02:26:45   It's just very...

02:26:46   I accept it.

02:26:47   mind it but it if you think about it too much it's pretty hard to explain is the

02:26:52   Falcon leaves Hoth and the hyperdrive you right hyperdrive doesn't work so

02:26:59   they go hide in an asteroid field because at the very least we can go

02:27:02   there and these stardestories will start stop shooting at us so far so good I'll

02:27:08   it just just forget that this space worm somehow gets huge on an asteroid with no

02:27:13   atmosphere and yeah whatever whatever the biology of that thing is it's

02:27:17   spaceships yeah it eats hydrogen maybe it's meters who knows yeah so what so

02:27:22   what it's a good was a cool scene and a great surprise so I forgive it but they

02:27:26   don't have a hyperdrive and they never fix the hyperdrive and then Han is

02:27:30   flipping through his computer and he goes Lando huh and so somehow he can get

02:27:35   to Bespin which is well it's clouds in that system they're in the know add

02:27:40   system already. Where are we? He's already left the Hoth system. There's not much there.

02:27:44   He's left the Hoth system. They're in the Noad system.

02:27:46   That's what I'm saying. It's going to be like a long car ride. Well,

02:27:48   hyperdrive will get you there faster, but if you're willing to just go along the highway at 55,

02:27:52   you'll eventually get there. It's just preposterous, scientifically speaking,

02:27:55   but that's the way it works. But then he's going to go to Bespin, or the Lando system,

02:27:58   quote unquote. So, sorry, continued. But that's a different solar system, right?

02:28:03   Yes. They're not trying to say that Bespin is on a different planet in the Hoth solar system.

02:28:08   I actually don't know someone someone who knows more about Star Wars could probably map this out for us

02:28:12   but I don't think so because the system could also mean the planet being the central and the moon's being the

02:28:17   System, right? I think that the loosey-goosey

02:28:20   site, you know Star Wars scientific explanation is that hyperdrive is really really fast and gets you, you know,

02:28:28   like you said like a couple of hours you can get from one A to B and

02:28:31   If you don't take hyperdrive

02:28:33   there's still some kind of faster-than-light way that you're gonna get there, not like 100 years

02:28:40   from now, you're gonna get there in a couple of weeks. Because that's the whole period where Luke

02:28:44   is training on Dagobah. Yeah, exactly. Right? The time it takes the Falcon to get from the asteroids

02:28:50   to Bespin is the time, the entirety of the time that Luke trains. Either Luke spends a grand total

02:28:56   of about eight hours training, or those guys are sitting around playing an awful lot of that video,

02:29:02   >>Steve, that table video game.

02:29:03   >>Corey, because we covered these same topics.

02:29:05   In fact, this was the title of one of the episodes of an empire, was "Jedi Weekend",

02:29:10   because we were discussing how long does he spend on Dagobah.

02:29:13   Is he there for a month?

02:29:14   Is he there for a week?

02:29:15   Or is it just like a Jedi Weekend?

02:29:16   >>Corey, what's this show you speak of?

02:29:18   >>Steve, you should put it in your show notes.

02:29:20   >>Corey, I will.

02:29:21   >>Steve, and by the way, I just Googled that.

02:29:23   There's a question on swtor.com.

02:29:27   How did Han get to Bespin with no light speed?

02:29:29   It's a question right in the forums.

02:29:31   The first answer is that it's pothole.

02:29:33   Yeah.

02:29:33   No, do you know what?

02:29:34   I'll tell you what.

02:29:35   Oh, a pothole.

02:29:35   You know what?

02:29:36   I'll tell you what.

02:29:36   This is classic comic book writing.

02:29:40   Like the hero's only ever as powerful as you need him to be for any given scene.

02:29:44   Like Superman can move the moon in one scene and then just get beaten down

02:29:48   by Batman in the next scene.

02:29:49   It's, it's fine.

02:29:51   Like I, I think, you know, Scott McNulty, forgive me, but Star

02:30:00   Star Trek kind of overly fetishizes this kind of thing and it's just a detail.

02:30:04   It doesn't matter.

02:30:05   It has nothing to do with the narrative expression of the story.

02:30:08   Right.

02:30:09   Like Star Trek has gone on to explain that the warp factor going from 0 to 10 is like

02:30:15   a logarithmic scale.

02:30:16   Yeah, and they've changed it a couple of times in order to make more sense given the

02:30:21   end.

02:30:22   So apparently Hoth and Bespin are both in the NOAD system.

02:30:24   I sent you a NOAD sucker.

02:30:26   Oh my god, look at this.

02:30:28   You know that this was backwards.

02:30:31   This is somebody who this really bothered them.

02:30:37   And bless them.

02:30:38   Because the expanding universe and everything has to explain all this.

02:30:43   People who are more into it know all these answers already because they have to make

02:30:46   you know the movie gets to do throwaway lines when you write novel after novel in this universe

02:30:49   you have to eventually figure out where everything is.

02:30:51   Oh no wait no wait that's a second it's not the same solar system.

02:30:54   It's the same sector.

02:30:55   What does that mean? It doesn't matter. It's all just hand-waving.

02:30:58   But you still need faster than life travel. Faster than life.

02:31:01   And I feel like the movie doesn't suffer for it at all. And it would have been a whole

02:31:08   midichlorian moment if they had gone the whole Star Trek factor and explained that we can no

02:31:13   longer go in hyperdrive past speed one. But Star Trek doesn't do that either.

02:31:20   Star Trek basically just says if it's a dramatic part of a plot, we would just simply have someone

02:31:24   and explain in the moment that whatever speed we're going now is either adequate or inadequate

02:31:29   for some made-up reason to escape or not escape from. It's like when they're trying to do

02:31:33   the, trying to get out of the black hole in the J.J. Abrams reboot. Like the big hole

02:31:37   going and the red matter and they're trying to get away from it. Like, "Oh, we're at maximum

02:31:40   warp. We're not going to make it out and blow a thing up behind..." Like, they just need

02:31:42   a dramatic moment. Like, there's no, there's no, before that they didn't have long discussions

02:31:47   about what it would be like trying to escape from an antimatter bomb with warp engines,

02:31:52   It doesn't matter.

02:31:53   You just need a dramatic moment.

02:31:54   In the moment, someone yells something that tells you the rules.

02:31:57   You can't do that too much because then you get Doctor Who.

02:31:59   Yeah, exactly.

02:32:00   But in terms of Empire, what we needed is we needed Luke to be trained by Yoda,

02:32:04   and we needed time for Han and Leia to sort of come together in some kind of way.

02:32:12   And sort of the downtime in both the asteroid field and on Dagobah provides that story tempo, right?

02:32:21   And then after you're done with that, it's, you know, wave your hands and it's on to the

02:32:27   next thing.

02:32:28   Right.

02:32:29   And it also makes sense then that the Empire could have gotten there before they did because

02:32:33   they have ships with fully functioning hyper drives and could get there and, you know,

02:32:37   work out their dastardly plan.

02:32:39   Yeah.

02:32:40   I mean, clearly, I mean, well, yeah, what does Lando say?

02:32:41   They got there just before you did.

02:32:44   So...

02:32:45   Oh, does he say that just before?

02:32:46   I think it's...

02:32:47   Obviously enough before that, you know, Vadius has time to plan a dinner party.

02:32:51   So I always thought that was pretty classy.

02:32:55   He's totally classy.

02:32:55   That was the Bond villainiest moment in Star Wars.

02:33:00   Yeah, he was pretty classy the whole time.

02:33:01   And I, you know, I think it makes sense to test the carbonite freezing on Han.

02:33:07   Why would you not do that?

02:33:10   Like, and again, it's like, we don't want the Emperor's prize damage, but even at that

02:33:14   point you'd be saying maybe he doesn't want to.

02:33:16   Of course he doesn't want to meet a son. I mean even at that point if he's got delusions that it's going to be like father and son the evil duo.

02:33:23   Yeah.

02:33:24   Yeah.

02:33:24   Yeah, either way.

02:33:26   Of course he doesn't want to test it. Who would want to test it or not? That's fine.

02:33:29   Do you think it's made further uncomfortable? I mean I presume that they did get a meal.

02:33:33   I do.

02:33:34   They did that in Robot Chicken, I think. The Robot Chicken parody where they play out the rest of that scene where they're awkwardly eating.

02:33:41   And like, I didn't see- Oh, I have to put this in the show notes.

02:33:44   I think it's Robot Chicken.

02:33:45   - It's gotta be.

02:33:46   Yeah, so what's Vader doing?

02:33:47   He's just sitting there?

02:33:48   So...

02:33:49   - Well, Vader and Boba Fett both wear masks

02:33:53   that they don't take off, right?

02:33:56   - Oh yeah, I forget Boba Fett steps in from the side.

02:33:58   - They just wanna see other people enjoying their food.

02:34:00   - Boba Fett being in that scene is basically

02:34:02   just a fuck you to Han Solo at that point.

02:34:04   - Yeah, 'cause he just comes out from the side, he's like,

02:34:06   - He has no reason to be there other than like,

02:34:08   "Heh, I got you."

02:34:09   It's just to rub it in.

02:34:11   - Oh, I guess he wants the bounty.

02:34:12   He's like, you know, that guy's worth a lot to me.

02:34:15   Yeah.

02:34:16   Like, do you think Vader ate his meals alone

02:34:21   in his little meditation chamber?

02:34:23   Yeah, it's the only way he could take the helmet off.

02:34:27   He ate in front of the big screen, put on some sports.

02:34:30   Oh my god, you remember in the prequels

02:34:32   when they had like robots playing football,

02:34:34   some kind of American style football?

02:34:36   Oh, yeah.

02:34:36   Yeah.

02:34:37   Oh, it's so horrible.

02:34:38   Well, in Star Wars Rebels, they bring back that little,

02:34:41   whatever it's called, the circular table in the Falcon with a little

02:34:43   Yeah.

02:34:44   clay animation monsters.

02:34:45   Yeah.

02:34:45   What is that game called?

02:34:46   I don't know.

02:34:47   I'm sure there's an idea.

02:34:48   I'm cool with that.

02:34:48   They pull that back in Rebels.

02:34:49   Whatever.

02:34:50   But really playing American football, George playing American football is just,

02:34:54   come on.

02:34:54   What?

02:34:54   Or even something vaguely.

02:34:58   Yeah, sure.

02:34:58   Whatever.

02:34:59   I mean, the guy had basically, yeah, they look like a line of blockers and

02:35:02   they could, somebody with the football.

02:35:04   So.

02:35:04   Once you've got a fifties diner, all bets are off.

02:35:07   Yeah, I know.

02:35:07   God damn.

02:35:09   So let's blow through the prequel trilogy.

02:35:12   Can we just blow it up instead?

02:35:14   Yeah, but to me, among the worst things...

02:35:18   Alright, the dialogue is terrible throughout.

02:35:20   The character motivations are terrible throughout.

02:35:21   The definition of who's the main characters in this movie are terrible throughout.

02:35:27   So you get that from the Plinket things, right?

02:35:29   I am, yeah. That's the red letter media.

02:35:32   I watched them again.

02:35:35   I would hardly recommend them except for all of the weird side plot stuff.

02:35:39   I don't like the Plinket things.

02:35:41   I don't like the characterization of the framing device.

02:35:43   I think it's pointless.

02:35:44   I think the framing device...

02:35:45   And the thing about the no main character, which a lot of people pull away from that,

02:35:50   in ensemble movies, it's perfectly fine.

02:35:53   Who's the main character in The Usual Suspects, right?

02:35:55   Who's the main character in Firefly?

02:35:57   It is possible to have, you know, or you can have arguments about,

02:36:01   "Mao is the main character in Firefly."

02:36:03   Well, is Kevin Spacey the main character in Jules Hoss specs or is it Gabriel Byrne?

02:36:07   Like, you know, like ensemble casts are fine. Who's the main character in Oceans 11?

02:36:11   Is it George Clooney because he's the most famous and got paid the most?

02:36:14   Like ensemble casts are fine. But what he was trying to get at with the

02:36:17   who's the main character in The Phantom Menace is that we don't care about any of these people.

02:36:21   Right. I totally agree.

02:36:22   The main character is like, who do I care about? Who do I identify with?

02:36:26   Who should have been Kenobi?

02:36:27   Who am I rooting for? And in Phantom Menace, the answer is nobody because they're all just

02:36:31   cardboard cut out pieces of crap. The entire prequel should have been Kenobi. And Kenobi's

02:36:35   ultimate failure to effectively save Anakin from going to the dark side. You're like,

02:36:42   "Who the hell is Qui-Gon? Never heard of him before." And he's pointless. And in fact,

02:36:45   Kenobi said he was trained by Yoda, so what... why are we... you know... and I like Liam Neeson.

02:36:53   "Well, everybody's trained by Yoda, it's like saying, 'I was taught by a famous professor at

02:36:57   at famous school you really weren't really maybe had one class with him but yeah that's it so

02:37:01   everyone's always trained by yoda because he's sort of the head of the training hierarchy but

02:37:05   anyway like yeah introducing all like every level of the prequels has problems you can get a little

02:37:10   picky you and things you can complain about them in the micro level and you can pull all the way

02:37:13   back to level i always like to go out and says they just failed in their fundamental tasks explain

02:37:16   why and it can turn to the dark side i i think the reason qui-gon exists is because of i well one of

02:37:23   One of the reasons is that I feel like Lucas got a bug up his butt to have a parallel to

02:37:27   the first one where, you know, there's this great moment where Obi-Wan sacrifices himself

02:37:32   and dies and you know, oh my God, this Jedi who was so wise and sage and powerful throughout

02:37:36   this movie, all of a sudden he's dead.

02:37:38   I didn't expect that.

02:37:39   Well, I want that again, but it can't be Obi-Wan because I need Obi-Wan, you know, for the

02:37:43   next six movies.

02:37:44   And so we'll invent this new guy.

02:37:45   And then what happens to Obi-Wan?

02:37:46   Well, he gets to sit on a spaceship for 45 minutes.

02:37:49   So the one thing I will say about that Obi-Wan thing is that Qui-Gon's death kind of gives

02:37:54   him the option, at least, to do what Luke did in Return of the Jedi, where he just goes

02:38:04   bananas and really wails on Darth Maul, another character we don't care about.

02:38:09   But that doesn't really even happen, as the Plinkett thing points out.

02:38:13   Well, he does, but then you don't get...

02:38:15   There's no payoff.

02:38:17   There's no idea that Obi-Wan is constantly teetering on the edge of the dark side.

02:38:19   Yeah, exactly.

02:38:20   What you get is more like Qui-Gon is kind of like the problem student who's always a

02:38:26   little bit disrespectful and kind of, you know, I don't know, like a little bit of a

02:38:33   rebel.

02:38:34   But never do you get the idea that Qui-Gon is teetering on the edge of the dark side

02:38:37   rather than Obi-Wan.

02:38:38   No.

02:38:39   It's just that they're kind of like the trouble students.

02:38:43   But whereas Luke's whole thing is like, "Yeah, you're teetering on the edge of the dark

02:38:46   So when Obi-Wan goes nuts and starts wailing on him, we're not... sad music is not playing.

02:38:51   We are rooting for Obi-Wan to win. He does win. There is no, you know,

02:38:55   pacifism angle or anything. So I've got two things about that. First of all, I loved...

02:38:58   I mean, so visually, that battle was stunning, as contrived as it was. It looked pretty cool.

02:39:06   I liked that as those arbitrary doors closed, like laser doors closed, Qui-Gon sat down and

02:39:15   and meditated while Darth Maul stalked back and forth.

02:39:19   That was nice. I liked it.

02:39:22   I liked that after Qui-Gon had been killed, Obi-Wan was like jumping up and down, just

02:39:29   ready to go, like he's clearly pissed, right?

02:39:32   But you're right, there was no payoff.

02:39:34   And worse than there being no payoff, and this is horrible, he ends up in a tactically

02:39:42   inferior position.

02:39:43   basically fallen halfway down the hall

02:39:44   and he's got no lightsaber.

02:39:46   And he manages to beat Darth Maul by jumping over him,

02:39:51   force grabbing the lightsaber and cutting him in half.

02:39:53   - It's the henchman thing, when henchmen in the movies

02:39:56   like just get into position in front of the hero

02:39:58   and then stand motionless

02:39:59   while the hero does some cool move to them.

02:40:00   - Exactly, now here's the thing.

02:40:03   That is an incredibly inferior position.

02:40:05   And at the end of "The Revenge of the Sith,"

02:40:10   we see we have Kenobi in a marginally elevated position over Anakin.

02:40:19   And they have to speak the lines out because like, I need you to understand that now I

02:40:25   have the advantage because I want you to know that the next decision Anakin makes whether

02:40:29   the fight or not will be like it's just it doesn't make any sense because we've seen

02:40:33   Kenobi beat way crazier odds against a guy that was, you know, arguably,

02:40:38   Maul was like, probably one of the better fighters that we've seen, right?

02:40:42   So it's, it's just, it's so frustrating.

02:40:45   It's all nonsensical.

02:40:46   It is nonsensical at every possible level.

02:40:49   You go, you go really picky, you're like medium level, like from moment to moment,

02:40:53   scene to scene, action to action, motivation to motivation.

02:40:56   Like the fight scenes make no sense.

02:40:58   The larger stories make no sense.

02:40:59   At any level of zoom, you still get the poo emoji.

02:41:03   is what... To jump to that Vader... Well, he was Vader, but the Anakin/Obi-Wan's

02:41:10   fight in Revenge of the Sith, in that very fight scene, it is... I never

02:41:14   thought about it before, how it parallels the Darth Maul/Obi-Wan, you're in a lower

02:41:19   position, and he didn't even have a lightsaber in his hand yet. You're right

02:41:21   though, that is pretty damning. But even in that one fight scene, in the

02:41:26   ebb and flow of one guy having the upper hand, one guy having the lower hand, you

02:41:30   know upper hand lower hand you know ebb and flow the fights going back and forth

02:41:33   that was so far and away not the worst position one of them in in those guys

02:41:39   would come back from so much worse position everyone to go farther level in

02:41:43   that in that scene where the two of them fighting you want the fight to not be

02:41:47   about the fight yeah I want to be about something else but there's something

02:41:50   else it's about is so stupid and you don't care about it at all and you've

02:41:53   totally checked out an Anakin as a character for three whole movies you

02:41:56   could give a damn about what the like the underlying you didn't even check out

02:41:59   You never checked it.

02:42:00   You just yeah, right, exactly.

02:42:01   But no, it's like if you're going to have a long fight scene,

02:42:05   like culminate a trilogy of movies, a long fight scene between

02:42:10   two people, you have to have established whatever the underlying

02:42:13   issue is to the degree that the attention of the fight scene

02:42:15   is not just about the fighting part.

02:42:17   But by the time episode three comes along, you're just like,

02:42:19   whatever.

02:42:19   That's why it just seems like all this drags on so long and

02:42:23   it's boring.

02:42:24   Who cares?

02:42:24   Who cares who win?

02:42:25   You know who wins?

02:42:26   You know what happens?

02:42:26   You don't there's no emotional stakes because you don't care about any of the people and then the mechanics of the fight scene aren't any interesting

02:42:32   Phantom Man is I think had a well choreographed fight scene with some interesting things in it

02:42:36   That didn't make too much sense. Did you care about the characters?

02:42:41   Maybe you kind of cared about obi-wan because you knew he was gonna be Qui-Gon

02:42:44   I mean Liam Eason is fairly charismatic and his character was vaguely interesting

02:42:48   Darth Maul was a total cipher and was stupid and then they killed him so so much for that. Yeah

02:42:53   He was almost like a red shirt. Yeah, he really was just a red

02:42:56   It was just like a big mean looking scary guy who's got like two lines and you're only reason you you think he's intimidating is

02:43:02   Because like you assume he's a good fighter and you later to see that he is and that he seems scary

02:43:06   But I mean Vader had a whole movie to be intimidating before he took out obi-wan

02:43:10   Yeah, I'm always like you saw him briefly

02:43:12   I feel that that final fight would have almost been better served have just I

02:43:16   Don't know like obi-wan kicks down the door and just eviscerates

02:43:21   Anakin, like immediately just chops it into pieces.

02:43:23   Like, because that's what you need to have happen, right? Like that's...

02:43:26   Well, I mean, you need to have the emotional payoff of whatever their supposed conflict is about and whatever is like,

02:43:32   "Oh, Anakin, why are you turning up?" But it was just so squandered at that point.

02:43:36   Yeah, yeah.

02:43:36   It's like, whatever.

02:43:37   But I feel like once you've decided, once Kenobi has decided, I think there needs to be a decisive thing.

02:43:44   And what happened was not decisive, really, you know?

02:43:47   Obi-Wan was supposedly holding back. It's like I really don't want to kill you

02:43:51   I can kill you because you're a stupid kid and you didn't take all my lessons and I'm a good fighter

02:43:55   I can but I don't want to I'm trying to convince you and talk you down from it eventually

02:43:59   I hope the high ground if the next move you make is something he just says to the audience like I'm setting up a scenario

02:44:05   Which now this fight is over now

02:44:07   and I'm telling you that the decision Anakin makes now will determine whether the fight ends for him and for me and

02:44:12   The rash move would be for him. I'm telling him don't do this rash move because I'm in a superior position

02:44:17   Even though that makes no sense the context in terrified. I am simply like where it's whatever this description has run out

02:44:23   So now yeah, I'm just going to tell you what is going to happen here

02:44:27   I can't actually make it happen organically through a story, you know, where things were events unfold and situations arise

02:44:34   We can't have that because that'd be too complicated

02:44:35   I'm just gonna tell so this is the ending part of a dick move to let your friends slash

02:44:39   I thought if you like a brother to burn alive maybe you know put him out of his misery

02:44:45   Yeah, no, it doesn't make any sense.

02:44:47   Like, do I try to save him?

02:44:48   Like, even Batman saves the Joker.

02:44:50   I'm gonna take your lightsaber.

02:44:52   Yeah, he's gonna give it to Luke.

02:44:54   And like, I'm gonna hand you later, and you, it's like,

02:44:56   I don't know if we're supposed to believe that you thought,

02:44:57   well, he's a goner, or we just let him burn to death,

02:44:59   and it's like, it doesn't make any sense.

02:45:01   It's horrible.

02:45:02   There's no reason it has to play out that way.

02:45:04   Right.

02:45:05   It's like when you're writing the script,

02:45:07   this is the type of thing you think about.

02:45:08   Like, you know where you want to go,

02:45:09   and you have to have a series of events

02:45:11   that leads naturally to the place you want to go.

02:45:12   Right. You need to trap--

02:45:13   You can't force it. You need to trap your protagonist into a course of action that

02:45:17   Needs you down down the path that you've voted for. And nothing was nothing was forcing Obi-Wan to have like an appointment

02:45:24   He had to get to. All right. Well, I wouldn't pull you out of the lava

02:45:26   But I it's not it's not even that hard to think of something very close where you are

02:45:30   You're and and this is one of those things that I don't know if you guys remember but I remember even as a kid

02:45:35   that the fan magazines had rumors that if they're ever if they ever made the

02:45:40   prequel trilogy that the way that Vader got the way he was and the whole reference to you know, the

02:45:46   You know last we met I was but the learner now on the master, you know that these guys knew each other

02:45:50   Was that you know?

02:45:52   There were rumors all the way back then like 80 81 that it was some kind of lightsaber duel and obi-wan knocked him into lava

02:45:59   Yeah, that's what screwed him up

02:46:01   Something something Vader, you know obi-wan gave him a ass-kicking and he fell on so just make it an edge

02:46:06   You know you're on a cliff or something like a volcano and you he cuts off his arm his lightsaber falls to the ground and he

02:46:12   falls into a pit of and he does it's unintentional effectively like

02:46:15   If I wanted to do it what I would have I mean you got to have a whole other different three movies in front of

02:46:21   This delete on this but what you'd want to have happen is to have them have whatever

02:46:24   Underlying issue and have it play out through through a lightsaber thing and have oh

02:46:30   basically have Obi-Wan try and fail to save him from the lava thing.

02:46:35   Like that it's not like he hit him into the lava then in second thoughts and tried to save them.

02:46:39   Like the fight led to a situation in which Anakin was going to fall in the lava and the battle was

02:46:47   Obi-Wan trying to save him. Not like Obi-Wan pushed him into the lava in second thoughts.

02:46:50   Because then you have...

02:46:51   Well, he needs to try to save him both from going to the dark side and from

02:46:55   the ultimate physical demise, right?

02:46:57   Right. It depends on what you want that want the conflict to be. If you want the conflict to be

02:47:01   that can feels like he was betrayed by obi-wan then you could have it be like you know obi-wan

02:47:05   trying to show him that he wasn't betrayed if you want the conflict to be something different like a

02:47:08   love triangle or some other like i don't know it depends on the conflict how you want it to play

02:47:12   out but you've already written a thing where he has to survive and he's all smart and messed up

02:47:16   and obi-wan has his saber those things were already set so you have him cut off his hand

02:47:21   his sabers there on the ground he falls in the pit and he's gone and you know obi-wan's not nuts

02:47:26   He's not jumping down into a lava pit to make sure the guy's dead. He just assumes he's dead and somehow

02:47:31   He's still so powerful. He's got the dark side

02:47:33   He can keep himself alive in a lava pit even while he's getting all burned up and there you go. You're done

02:47:38   Oh, I mean, I think you probably also I would have obi-wan to know that he's still alive and know that he has failed to save

02:47:44   him but the you know, like because yeah, that's because I don't be one is hiding on Tatooine so he knows like

02:47:49   Who's he hiding Luke from if he thinks Vader?

02:47:51   Well, I like the idea of Vader being a thing and then slowly

02:47:55   it's

02:47:57   You know obi-wan recognizes it like oh my god that that's what happened. I wouldn't be tired of a lot of it

02:48:03   Yeah, I know the lava pit is from it's from Lucas. It's from the fan

02:48:06   I guess from way back who cares you had a good story

02:48:09   That's pretty ham-fisted because it's like first of all Lord of the Rings did it first and see

02:48:12   And it's slightly differently the second of all like anything we were established anything that involves like a pratfall or a slapstick or like whoop

02:48:21   I lost my balance and fell into this thing. It's like it's such a

02:48:24   Ignoble my god, imagine they dropped Anakin into like a so like pit

02:48:28   Yeah, someone bumped into him like he was just walking

02:48:31   Various walkways that has no railings on it and like they tried to pass each other

02:48:35   Real ham screen

02:48:39   So the whole the whole prequel trilogy I feel like it's mostly in hindsight it's a

02:48:47   Like fanfiction ask trying to write in as many coincidences as possible

02:48:52   You know, like you've already mentioned don't say see he don't see 3po made by a boyhood

02:48:57   You know Anakin even though he's clearly as we've seen through all of the movies like right off the assembly line

02:49:06   He's right off the assembly line. There's like other

02:49:09   Protocol droids who look exactly like him Anakin was not a very imaginative child

02:49:13   They just made one looks exactly like the ones you maybe had like a radio

02:49:15   shack, something, you know, it's like a kid.

02:49:18   But somehow he didn't have the outer shell for him.

02:49:22   Uh, you know, to Django fat, uh, we all we've killed Boba fat and he was a

02:49:27   bad-ass, so we can't still have him around, but we'll just put his father in.

02:49:31   And then we'll say that he's, Oh, also that cool fat guy.

02:49:34   He's the, the, the parent of all the clones.

02:49:37   He's the template clone zero.

02:49:39   That's horrible.

02:49:41   It seems like you're getting away from that and then well who knows but

02:49:45   I I don't even you could list them forever

02:49:49   I'd say flaw number two is turning the Jedi from these like

02:49:54   martial artists who are masters of subtlety to

02:49:58   Superheroes, right? Like it just suddenly jumped from you know, like these guys who specialize mostly in like going unnoticed

02:50:07   I mean, that's what obi-wan does in like to shut down the reactor beam. It's it's awesome

02:50:11   It's so cool in the first movie the way obi-wan is this lone old how he deals with the sand people, too

02:50:16   He just makes a crazy noise. Anyway, he doesn't go slice and dice them

02:50:19   He just you know, right and there's this totally cool scene

02:50:23   you know super cool scene where there's the two stormtroopers by the the the

02:50:28   Tractor beam control and you know, it's like have you seen the new tk-421?

02:50:31   It's pretty I heard it's quite a thing to see your memory of Star Wars lines is quite a mishman

02:50:37   - The one that is Han Solo.

02:50:39   Yeah, whatever the model name is.

02:50:42   What's the model name of the Skyjumper

02:50:44   that he's talking about?

02:50:45   - Syracuse.

02:50:46   - Whatever, it's like, have you seen the new Camaro?

02:50:48   - Yeah, exactly.

02:50:49   - It's just a cool scene and it's a nice little,

02:50:52   it's like George Lucas when he made films for humans,

02:50:54   it's like, well, you know what,

02:50:55   that's probably what stormtroopers would talk about,

02:50:57   you know, cool spaceships and stuff like that.

02:51:00   But then all he does is make like a little noise,

02:51:02   like, you know, they hear something over there.

02:51:04   They turn their heads and boom, he's gone.

02:51:07   Perfect. That's what the Jedi's did. And then whole trilogy, it's established that they're like Marvel superheroes.

02:51:13   Well, and you know, growing up that that line of like, you know, I fought in the Clone Wars with your father. I never thought of it like they were generals or anything. I just thought that they fought together and they happened to be

02:51:31   General Kenobi.

02:51:33   Oh, sorry. Yeah, I did. But I didn't think that they were

02:51:36   commanders of troops. No, no, no, no, I didn't think that they

02:51:40   were outside of the weird general command structure,

02:51:45   right? I just thought that they were Jedi that happened to be

02:51:48   part of the army.

02:51:49   Ah, I see.

02:51:51   Like, yeah, it's not a Jedi. That's not a problem. You can

02:51:55   have, you know, but the prequel certainly sort of preclude that

02:51:59   possibility. But like,

02:52:00   - Yeah, when I was a kid, when I thought of them,

02:52:02   you fought fighting in the Clone Wars,

02:52:04   what I pictured was them fighting in the way

02:52:06   that Luke was aspiring to fight

02:52:07   and that they were pilots of, you know,

02:52:10   X-Wings or whatever, and they were shooting things

02:52:12   with guns and flying X-Wings around,

02:52:14   and the fact that they happened to have the force

02:52:15   maybe gave them a little bit better piloting skills,

02:52:17   but in general, that's how they were operating

02:52:19   within the missionary of the war as young men,

02:52:21   is that you fought in the Clone Wars

02:52:22   as a warrior of the type Luke was in that movie.

02:52:25   - That's exactly it, yeah.

02:52:26   And maybe you pull out a blast and you blast some people,

02:52:28   but when you need to get the honor thing going,

02:52:31   you can pull out your lightsaber and do it.

02:52:32   - Not that they were a bunch of priests in robes

02:52:34   running around and that there was some,

02:52:35   I mean, that was the problem with the prequels is that,

02:52:37   you know, if you're gonna do that timeline

02:52:40   and you're gonna make Jedis normal

02:52:43   and you're gonna have a lot of them,

02:52:44   they're no longer special and you have to embrace that

02:52:48   to a degree that the prequels

02:52:50   didn't feel comfortable embracing.

02:52:51   Like, it's as if you had a movie in which

02:52:54   one person had a gun and it was a big special thing.

02:52:58   You know like that Stephen King the guns the gunslinger series guns are a rarity or whatever and then you do prequels to them

02:53:03   Where everybody has guns if you're gonna do everybody has guns you have to do it like Saving Private Ryan

02:53:08   I know where guns are not part of the story at all

02:53:09   It's just normal and you move on from it very quickly on to whatever the actual story is

02:53:13   The story is not can you believe all these guys have guns, right? Yeah now we know they all have like it's normal

02:53:19   You have to have another story there. That's the story of that

02:53:22   You know a dramatic thing happening in war or whatever. So you're gonna have a million Jedi running around

02:53:26   The Jedi can't be that special and you have to have another story

02:53:29   That takes place and people just happen to have lightsabers in the same way that people happen to have

02:53:33   I completely agree and one thing that I always liked about Star Wars that I feel has been sort of betrayed over the years

02:53:40   Is something that sets it apart from Star Trek and in Star Trek each alien species

02:53:47   They call them races each alien race

02:53:50   has a prescribed set of

02:53:55   Sort of values and a cultural aspect to it like Klingons are warriors. The Ferengi are traitors like the humans are

02:54:03   Vaguely fleshed out the Romulans are duplicitous. The Vulcans are logical and

02:54:08   I always thought and I think it stems from the from the cantina scene in Star Wars that

02:54:14   these are just a bunch of people hanging out or aliens like it's

02:54:18   You can have Greedo can be an asshole

02:54:21   But that doesn't mean that everybody looks like Greedo is gonna be a bounty hunter out to kill people

02:54:26   Well, you've got the huts that are all gangsters supposedly, but not in the movies

02:54:30   I'm Lee but it's not in the movies that they don't say it is Java the hut. That's all you hear about

02:54:34   Well, no, but I did mention that the huts run the show sure

02:54:38   But I mean that could be I mean maybe the hut is as far as I know that's their family's family name

02:54:44   I don't know. Yeah, exactly

02:54:46   Maybe it's just an end but that's what I mean about it

02:54:48   It's been slowly betrayed over the years of this notion of like

02:54:51   this group or you know, or this this alien species acts in this way and

02:54:56   There is a nice touch like that

02:54:59   It would Star Wars

02:55:00   You know if we're going to be be nice and say nice things about the prequels in the in phantom menace one of Anakin's

02:55:06   Childhood friends is a yes

02:55:09   Except I think he's greedy. I think he's actually greedy. Well, oh you do

02:55:14   I really do. Oh

02:55:17   Yeah, I appreciate your notice. Yeah the Jedi Council. Oh my god. No, that's green. Oh, yeah

02:55:24   That's hard. I'll go check

02:55:27   I tried to forget that it's it's Warwick Davis anyway. It's Warwick Davis. Oh, yeah, I think they call him Peter

02:55:32   But the the Jedi Council and Phantom Menace though is the kind of the United College of Benetton with it like anyone can be in

02:55:38   Jedi so they think every single Star Wars race they try to throw in one of them including whatever Yoda is because they've

02:55:43   So wait, one thing, oh man, I'm just I'm gonna use this just to air all of my Star Wars grievances out

02:55:50   Yoda should not have a lightsaber. I never thought I was eight years old when I was like, no

02:55:56   There's no way Yoda should have a lightsaber, whenever it came out

02:55:59   I would not have done that

02:56:01   Yoda is just a, I remember being a kid before Jedi came out

02:56:06   Oh, no

02:56:07   It was after Jedi trying to figure out if Yoda could beat the Emperor and it was always like well

02:56:13   Well, Yoda's too good for that shit.

02:56:16   He doesn't fight.

02:56:18   He's beyond that kind of level.

02:56:21   It doesn't matter to him.

02:56:23   He definitely does not pull out a lightsaber and try to cut people in pieces.

02:56:26   I couldn't agree more.

02:56:28   I was so proud of what Jonas and I were talking about.

02:56:31   I've been really on a Star Wars kick lady.

02:56:33   I was so proud of him.

02:56:34   He said that Jonas came up with the same thing.

02:56:36   He thought Yoda shouldn't have had a lightsaber because in the first trilogy, the Emperor

02:56:41   didn't have a lightsaber.

02:56:42   And wouldn't that be cool if like the top dark side guy is so powerful he doesn't need a lightsaber and the top

02:56:47   Lightside guy that's like that's for kids. I want elegant. Yeah like an elegant. What is it an elegant weapon for a more civilized age?

02:56:55   They don't need weapons. They're there and then sex secondarily even if you're gonna say, okay, he does have a lightsaber

02:57:02   He shouldn't fight like a pinball miss

02:57:04   Bouncing around a machine once you're gonna have him try to fight with a lightsaber

02:57:10   That's really his only viable strategies to be a little chasm eating devil whirling dervish because otherwise

02:57:16   I like people had to bend down to even like so should I swing at you down there somehow?

02:57:21   He should be so powerful if he does have a lightsaber that it's like it would be like his his battles would be like that

02:57:27   The the first battle between obi-wan and very slow very simple and it's like he's just he's he's one step ahead of you

02:57:35   I was too small. I can just cut your ankles off

02:57:37   I mean like it's a mistake to give him a lightsaber if you do give them one that you go with the the

02:57:41   Anime cliche that they also do in samurai movies where it's like two motionless people standing facing each other

02:57:47   Then there's some flash of action and then one guy falls apart because he's been sliced in half. Yeah

02:57:51   You know the Emperor didn't have one Yoda doesn't need one the end the frenetic pace of his lightsaber battling

02:58:01   It's just it just reeks to me of like they they were so hobbled when he was a practical effect

02:58:08   By the limits of puppetry and it's like so hard to make him even like walk right and they had like seven puppeteers

02:58:15   Working Yoda simultaneously so that his eyes could move while his mouth moved and it's a fascinating

02:58:21   You know backstory of how they made that Yoda puppet as realistic as they did and clearly they had trouble making him eat soup

02:58:28   The first one and make him believable and then all of a sudden they come to George Lucas and they're like well as a computer

02:58:35   Generated effect he can do a triple somersault right over Count Dooku's head. I think it was led the other way

02:58:41   I think Lucas wanted to see him fight with lightsaber. Yeah, I agree. I agree

02:58:44   Yeah, I yeah, I blame George Lucas entirely that it was like but like these front

02:58:49   You know that he saw no beauty in in the economy of the limits of Yoda as a practical

02:58:54   No, it doesn't.

02:58:56   Or even like the whole philosophy of the force as expressed in Empire, which is Lucas's least

02:59:00   favorite movie.

02:59:01   Wait, is it really?

02:59:02   Is that, is he on record saying that?

02:59:05   Yes.

02:59:06   Oh, God.

02:59:07   Are you surprised?

02:59:09   No, I just hadn't heard that.

02:59:11   I mean, now I'm in, like, I still hold a grudge against Stephen King because he doesn't like

02:59:16   The Shining.

02:59:18   That is explicable because it's not that I don't think he doesn't like The Shining, it's

02:59:22   That the shining is so different from the book. He's like this is not an adaptation my book

02:59:27   I think my book is good and this movie is a different movie

02:59:29   I think he would admit that the shining is a good movie, but he would say it's a

02:59:32   Vaguely, no, actually he's said that it's a bad movie

02:59:36   But because he doesn't think it under see though he's he's a fan of like typical horror movies like he likes darkness

02:59:41   He likes surprises. He's

02:59:43   Appreciated psychological horror - it's just that it's it is it doesn't capture anything about his book that he feels like there was value in

02:59:50   My book and this movie captures none of it, which is true. It captures different value that is not in the book

02:59:54   Yeah, you know well actually we know the answer

02:59:57   Have you guys ever seen his shining miniseries for ABC which starred the guy from no because I was angry at him

03:00:04   the guy from the guy from

03:00:06   You can see what he you can we see we know what Stephen King thinks is a good film

03:00:12   I did see I think it's I don't know if you know that was good, but at least it's faith more faithful to the book

03:00:18   Well, I know he likes the Pet Sematary movie, and that tells me everything that I need to know about his...

03:00:25   It's basically like... Kubrick's The Shining is based on the book in the same way that Blade Runner is based on Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.

03:00:33   That's basically the connection.

03:00:34   Yeah.

03:00:35   Yeah. Source intro.

03:00:36   And it's good. Anyway, whatever. I don't want to diverge into that. But...

03:00:39   How do we get there? Anyway, yeah, so no, I'm not...

03:00:44   Jedi is a superpower.

03:00:46   not surprised but I am depressed that Lucas dislikes Empire Strikes Back or

03:00:52   it's his least favorite one. That boggles my mind.

03:00:56   It didn't turn out the way, like that's the reason he started to take

03:01:00   over a little bit more control in Jedi and in total control in the prequels is

03:01:04   that he was distracted by you know building his empire and like the

03:01:07   success of Star Wars or whatever that he basically had to outsource and he didn't

03:01:11   want to direct another movie because it was so exhausting to do Star Wars. You

03:01:13   You should read the book. It's JW Rinsler.

03:01:16   They're huge hardcovers. One for New Hope, one for Empire, one for Jedi.

03:01:20   They're beautiful giant hardcover books. You can also get ebook versions.

03:01:23   And they are long and there's tons of stuff in them about the making of all these movies.

03:01:28   I didn't buy the Jedi one. I have the first two.

03:01:34   You gotta buy the Jedi one. You gotta have the complete set.

03:01:37   Yeah. At this point I'll probably have to pay extra.

03:01:39   do it really cool. I mean, as annoying as the Ewoks are that the integration of the

03:01:45   stop motion animation of the scout walkers into the forest scenes is bananas.

03:01:50   Joe, that was like the top, the highest level, the peak of a bunch of model

03:01:56   spaceships coming out. Because after that it was like all going to be CG. And so it's like, this is, you know, the most money, the most experience, the people who know how to do it best, doing the kind of battles that they could have only dreamt of in A New Hope.

03:02:07   And then after that, it was basically like, and no one will ever top that

03:02:10   because everything else after that will be CG.

03:02:12   That's space.

03:02:13   Fine.

03:02:13   CG is good, but it's a different kind of space and no one is ever going to do it.

03:02:16   That space battle blew my mind.

03:02:17   Like the, you see it from the front of the cockpit of the Falcon, like just

03:02:22   that swarm of firefighters coming at you.

03:02:23   Yeah.

03:02:24   Or even just the thing where they, they, you know, flip over to go into the little

03:02:27   tunnel into the Death Star, like the motion control camera moves to, you know,

03:02:31   point this out on any camera as well.

03:02:33   Like that they didn't just do the straightforward, easiest things they

03:02:36   wanted to, which is why it's great in the Force Awakens trailer, the ridiculous

03:02:40   camera moves and tracing the Falcon around, that's part of the Star Wars

03:02:45   aesthetic is that, unlike for example Star Trek where the ships kind of fight

03:02:48   like naval things where they're kind of moving in different directions.

03:02:50   Which is cool too, but it's not the same thing.

03:02:52   Right, but it's a whole different thing, but in Star Wars it's like everybody flies fancy.

03:02:57   Like everyone does everything like the hard way, it looks cool, because it looks

03:03:00   cool basically. There's no other reason, like why do you have to spiral and twist around

03:03:03   you go into the star why does the camera fall because it looks exciting dramatic

03:03:07   and yeah like the way that han parks in the

03:03:09   yeah yeah he flies over his parking spot and then

03:03:13   like doesn't he million like right down into it

03:03:16   yeah because he's got style yeah he's got like you you just know that his

03:03:20   signature yeah he does not fly casual yeah and and

03:03:24   like the the fact that you you know if you think about how the motion control

03:03:27   with all these models was done for jedi that you know everything all shot

03:03:30   separately or whatever the way that space battle was choreographed with the

03:03:33   the different things that happen in it and so that you get coherent action.

03:03:36   It's just, I mean, it's easier to do it in CG because you can plan the

03:03:40   whole thing out and you can put the camera that you want in the scene.

03:03:43   With models, you got to shoot an individual model doing its thing and then

03:03:48   knowing you put them all together, it's going to make one coherent scene.

03:03:50   And if they don't, it's not like you can move the camera to a different

03:03:52   position and try it from here.

03:03:53   Like, yeah, it takes ages.

03:03:55   Yeah.

03:03:55   Much more.

03:03:56   You get it.

03:03:56   You get a sense of spatiality that, that it just, you could do in CGI.

03:04:01   You can tell they've got weight.

03:04:02   You know, I don't know how to describe it.

03:04:04   Well, and the thing is they had, you don't realize it, but you like go, if you go back on with the stopwatch and see at how much time during this space battle scene are models on the screen.

03:04:13   And it's incredibly small amount of time because it was so expensive and time consuming to do.

03:04:17   Spent a lot of time seeing people's faces and cockpits and stuff like that.

03:04:21   And the trick is, how do I make a coherent battle scene where I can only show the models for a total of like 10 percent of the of the battle time because it's just so damn expensive.

03:04:30   And so every camera every shot of models has to be like in this scene. There's like three storyboards

03:04:36   We have to see big ship big ship move this way

03:04:39   Death Star fire ships scatter and the message is getting across here is the Death Star is active

03:04:44   It's shot a ship ships are scattered is the lame Falcon this scene? Yes

03:04:47   No

03:04:47   like and you get like

03:04:49   three seconds of screen time to convey an entire movement of the thing and then a more a bunch of people's faces and talking and

03:04:55   stuff and then you get

03:04:55   Three more seconds of ships moving and what happened between that one shot of ships moving the other one

03:05:00   It's communicated by the people talking by the interior shots by al-mahab are yelling or whatever, but it's still all weaves together

03:05:06   Yeah, it's a good. Yeah, we're to

03:05:09   Exactly. Yeah, don't show the show you make it do with what you have

03:05:13   Yeah, you make do with what you have and you say how do I how do I make this coherent?

03:05:17   When I know that I can only show the ships flying around the screen for fraction a second you make every one of the seconds

03:05:23   Versus like you know episode three

03:05:25   Flying everywhere. I mean whatever so that brings me to my man

03:05:30   I'm basically just using you as my Star Wars therapy at this point

03:05:34   The battle at the end of a new hope to take out this house death star is brilliant

03:05:40   You can tell what's happening like the you know the rebel ships are holding pattern somewhere above the death star

03:05:46   And they keep going on trench runs and effectively getting cut down by TIE fighters

03:05:51   So basic it's great and there's and and there's a map in the rebel base that shows how close the

03:05:57   Makes no sense if you think about it for three seconds is like we can go all across the galaxy

03:06:03   But the last ten meters we have to do in dramatic

03:06:05   but well, whatever let's buy it for artistic license and the same thing with like the

03:06:09   In broad strokes a very large space station, which they were the gravitational

03:06:16   fighters

03:06:18   Well, they weren't careful that you know

03:06:20   It wasn't designed for a tech for an attack like this and this kind of attack is the only attack the rebels have it's a typical

03:06:25   underdog type story

03:06:26   We're gonna attack with a small number of people we're gonna go through this little exhaust port with the never thought like

03:06:30   It sure less works in broad strokes

03:06:33   But the most important thing is like you said once you've established that stuff even if it's yeah

03:06:37   Nonsensical the idea that there's a trench. There's a target. We've told you what it is

03:06:41   We're gonna make a bunch of runs at it and it's gonna look cool because trenches are cool because the walls are close to you

03:06:46   So this is right exactly so this is my argument

03:06:48   It's about the battles as portrayed in in over the Star Wars movies that battle makes sense

03:06:53   Granted you know your Death Star has a dumb design, and you know did everything that you know stipulate to everything that John just said

03:07:02   the

03:07:04   The Battle of Hoth makes perfect sense kind of I don't know how jumping out of with the hand waving of like why can't we?

03:07:11   Just bring these things down. Yeah, well as a shield and like perimeter

03:07:14   We have to fly, we have to land far away.

03:07:16   Like whatever, but whatever.

03:07:18   Yeah, and you eat like, why do the walkers have to walk through the place?

03:07:20   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

03:07:21   Why can't they just come?

03:07:22   Suffice to say, they have to walk and that's fine.

03:07:25   And the rebels are fighting a holding action.

03:07:27   They have no illusion that they're going to win.

03:07:29   But they're fighting a holding action.

03:07:31   Mostly ineffective.

03:07:33   But they stay in their trench and they start blasting at stuff.

03:07:35   Good.

03:07:36   The kind of crazy Ewok attack.

03:07:40   Kind of crazy.

03:07:41   A little bit of the insurgency thing.

03:07:43   I think it would work if those guys were just Wookiees. I think that would just work

03:07:47   Because you could picture a Wookiee hitting somebody over the head with a stone and it would you know, you'd be laid down

03:07:53   Yeah, and like in the way that in the first movie the Empire had overlooked the possibility of what are they called snub fighters?

03:08:00   Being something to worry about you can say

03:08:02   Whatever they call them

03:08:08   that the Empire sort of

03:08:10   There's an implicit racism to the Empire because everybody in the Empire is exactly you could see them overlooking force of Wookiees is being something

03:08:17   That's like that and and really if they had a bigger budget or like more like if they had CG basically

03:08:23   They what they may not realize that many occupying forces don't realize that you are vastly outnumbered by the yeah

03:08:29   And you know, it doesn't matter how much technology

03:08:31   Is being used as slaves and then like overthrow that there's way more interesting things you could have done with that movie

03:08:37   Anyway, they didn't. But that said, at least that battle makes sense. And certainly the

03:08:42   space engagement makes a lot of sense. Because the rebels get totally...

03:08:47   I mean, it's a trap. It's a trap. And it works.

03:08:50   - It's a good play, because they have a plan, they execute on their plan. Their plan does not

03:08:54   go as planned because the Emperor knew about it. That's a typical, you know, in any type of war

03:08:59   type scenario where you do have a plan. For the battle seemed to be dramatic, you can't simply

03:09:04   execute your plan and then when in the end you have to have you know oh things are going badly

03:09:08   we thought this was going to be our plan but it turns out the Death Star is active and oh here's

03:09:11   the entire uh Empire's fleet and we have a serious problem here. And the a trap between the Imperial

03:09:16   fleet and an entirely operational Death Star. Not a good place to be. All of these battles make sense

03:09:23   but let's go to the prequels. Totally. Well I would say this just let me say before we go to the prequels

03:09:29   Let me say this that in their first trilogy. Let's say it takes place over roughly six years

03:09:34   Which is what the movies took place, you know in real life to make them takes place over six years

03:09:38   the the three movies spend an inordinate number most of their time on the most

03:09:43   Interesting things that happened in the whole galaxy in those six years the space battles that took place were monumentally important like historically

03:09:52   And the personal scenes are about the most important people in the galaxy at that time

03:09:58   Right now go to the original trilogy which takes place over like more than six and three cool

03:10:05   What is it? Yeah, it's like 20 something what?

03:10:08   Like seven and then he's like ten years ten years maybe a little

03:10:16   At the beginning of it there's a gap there's a galactic Senate and

03:10:23   There's a Jedi Order that seems to order, you know number in like the thousands and by the end of it

03:10:29   The entire Jedi Order is wiped out and the Republic is replaced by an empire

03:10:33   they spend like a

03:10:36   grand total of like two and a half minutes on screen showing the Jedi Order being wiped out and

03:10:42   You know the Emperor just says he's the Emperor

03:10:45   So they they just the the most interesting things that you would think they would show over the trilogy

03:10:51   They cover in about two and a half minutes.

03:10:53   They don't know what they're doing.

03:10:54   So, OK.

03:10:55   The battle in Phantom Menace won the

03:10:59   OK, the Gungans, the Gungans versus the droids.

03:11:03   Boring because you're fighting on a flat plane.

03:11:07   But what if you got the shields and it's kind of cool in a weird

03:11:10   Roman phalanx kind of way?

03:11:12   Until. Whatever.

03:11:14   Until it falls apart and...

03:11:16   The slapstick.

03:11:18   Yeah, exactly.

03:11:19   They're throwing big, glowy purple balls at each other.

03:11:22   Yeah, like it starts out kind of cool when they start deploying the army.

03:11:25   It's like, I don't know why you'd fight in a flat field,

03:11:27   given this kind of level of attack and whatever.

03:11:30   They're fighting on the window of XP. Exactly. Exactly.

03:11:33   And the and, you know, the idea that they're fighting droids that,

03:11:37   you know, if their control ship goes off their head.

03:11:40   Yeah, it doesn't make sense.

03:11:41   So the space battle is inane, completely inane.

03:11:44   They're going after what the control ship and it's stupid.

03:11:49   And Anakin gets lucky, like he doesn't even get smart.

03:11:52   He just, it's horrible.

03:11:54   So that can't touch, and even can't even touch the Ewok battle.

03:11:59   Like it's it's night and day worse than that.

03:12:02   You care more about the Ewoks than you do about any of the Gungans or anybody.

03:12:05   Of course you do.

03:12:06   Yeah, the Ewoks have that touching moment

03:12:08   where the guy in the glider gets shot down and the other Ewoks like...

03:12:11   And you'd establish them as characters of like capturing them

03:12:14   and bringing them back and discussing them, being convinced by, you know, C3PO

03:12:18   that he's a god and I think it works in their favor that you can't understand

03:12:22   what they're saying because yeah well and there was the one guy who got it

03:12:26   there's like an explosion that goes off in the one ewok yes he rubs the other

03:12:31   one yeah yeah it's getting it's getting at least there's some sense that there

03:12:40   are serious yeah and you killed one of the cutest things on screen that's you

03:12:43   know that's something um in the second one we have the inane yeah we have the

03:12:51   beginning of the Clone Wars whatever I don't want to talk about that because

03:12:55   none of it makes sense what they did how did all those Jedi's just walk in there

03:13:00   I don't know who knows why would you I'm not a really tactical savvy guy but if I

03:13:08   was 500 Jedi's I would not walk into the middle of an arena if you everything

03:13:13   can just shoot me.

03:13:14   - It's like they so wanted to have a, you know,

03:13:16   Roman Colosseum, good guys versus the lions type of thing.

03:13:19   - Yeah. - It's alien lions

03:13:21   and exciting you just have it in this big stadium.

03:13:23   - Yeah. - And like.

03:13:25   - The only cool thing about that is that

03:13:28   Vietnam era helicopter gunship coming in

03:13:31   with all the stormtroopers, the clone troopers,

03:13:34   basically shooting all the bad guys

03:13:36   and kind of trying to dust,

03:13:37   like trying to extract the surviving animals.

03:13:40   That's the only thing.

03:13:41   - It's the same problem as the first battles.

03:13:42   like I don't care about either side of these battles like I vaguely know that the good guys

03:13:48   are the guy with Yoda and I know they want to do like the well the good guys are using stormtroopers

03:13:52   isn't that weird but you don't care it's just a bunch of things it's like it's like uh what do

03:13:58   you call it man of steel just people banging against each other but it's more than that

03:14:01   whatever I guess though but it's more than that they get tactically stupider as the movies go on

03:14:07   So as soon as they dust off, they land and the Jedis end up taking squads of stormtroopers.

03:14:14   And the stormtroopers, the clone troopers, are a finite resource. They've been cloned over, what,

03:14:20   10 years against an advancing droid army. And what do they do? They just run at them.

03:14:27   They just run at them. Like, flat out run at a bunch of robots that we've seen,

03:14:33   A factory pumping them out by the hundreds.

03:14:35   Like, it's the dumbest thing ever.

03:14:40   It's the whole...

03:14:41   This is a George Lucas-ism in the entire movies.

03:14:44   The idea, and everybody succumbs to this, especially older people, but the idea that

03:14:48   the, well, not everybody, I mean, James Cameron has it, the idea that the Droid Army is obviously

03:14:54   going to be inferior to even clones because living things are so much smarter than droids

03:14:58   and droids are so dumb.

03:14:59   Yeah, but living things are smarter because they will duck and take cover and shoot at

03:15:01   the dumb ass robots.

03:15:03   Well, but that's the idea.

03:15:04   There's so many droids in the droid armies,

03:15:06   even the Gunkins can defeat them.

03:15:07   And when it's the clones versus the droids,

03:15:09   even though there's a factory turning them out,

03:15:10   obviously the living thing is going to win.

03:15:12   And I think the much more likely and reasonable scenario

03:15:15   is the Terminator one.

03:15:16   It's like, no, the machines win

03:15:17   because they're really good at killing them.

03:15:18   Yes, that would be my...

03:15:19   It's like, at least take cover.

03:15:20   That's why the living thing wins

03:15:22   because it's got a sense of self-preservation, effectively.

03:15:25   And here's where we get to where I want to just

03:15:30   murder every Wookiee I see. I don't see a lot, so that's okay. Yoda is on Kashyyyk, the Wookiee

03:15:39   homeworld, in the third movie, and the Droid Army is coming. And for whatever reason, the Droid Army

03:15:46   has decided to cross a lake or a river or whatever it is and land on a beach. And the beach is covered

03:15:55   on two sides by elevated cliffs. And on the top of the cliffs are a bunch of clones with

03:16:00   machine guns or whatever the hell it is like blasters. And on a trench on the beach are

03:16:08   a whole bunch of Wookiees with all of their bowcasters and their badass stuff.

03:16:13   And then the droids start coming and as they get onto the beach,

03:16:17   the Wookiees in the trench, what do you think they do?

03:16:23   They jump up out of the trench and run at the droids in the water.

03:16:29   You're in a trench.

03:16:31   Shoot the robots.

03:16:32   Why would you jump out of the trench?

03:16:34   It's horrible.

03:16:37   It's the most revolting...

03:16:43   Not revolting, but it's...

03:16:44   Like, we've gone from a completely understandable, really complicated scenario

03:16:49   of assaulting a Death Star with multiple fighter squadrons

03:16:52   into such a simple scenario where it's like these living things should probably not jump out of cover.

03:16:58   Why would why did you bother building the trench?

03:17:00   I've often said about like the Roger Morier Bond movies that he he gets you know like when he gets

03:17:07   captured and is you know facing seeming certain death he doesn't even seem perturbed he's not

03:17:12   worried he's not sweaty and he it's like he acts as though he's a character who's read the rest

03:17:17   of the script and knows knows he's getting out of it like it's like the Wookiees knew like well we

03:17:21   We read that we don't get shot, so we'll just run right at the point.

03:17:25   So they didn't have good analogs for the...

03:17:27   Because the other movies had analogs for you.

03:17:29   World War II dogfights.

03:17:30   Or like we just said, in Star Trek you had naval battles.

03:17:33   - Sure. - Or samurai swordfights.

03:17:35   So you have analogs, right?

03:17:36   And so the obvious analog for infantry,

03:17:39   there's plenty of analogs for them,

03:17:40   depending on what you want to do,

03:17:41   they just chose not to do any of them.

03:17:42   So one analog is like the Lord of the Rings thing,

03:17:44   where you can do a medieval formation type of, you know...

03:17:47   Which they kind of did in Fatimidus, right?

03:17:49   of all the Lord of the Ring movies,

03:17:52   including the Hobbit ones and everything,

03:17:53   they did a reasonable job of saying,

03:17:55   here is something that looks vaguely like

03:17:57   a maneuver that might've been done

03:17:58   by large standing armies with medieval weapons.

03:18:00   Whatever they may be, protective patterns with shields,

03:18:03   the use of your bowmen and the use of cavalry

03:18:07   and mounted things, stuff like that.

03:18:08   And there's plenty of analogs to choose from

03:18:10   in Star Wars I, they do have trenches,

03:18:13   like they were doing that, they did it on the hot scene,

03:18:15   it's just that they're like, at a certain point,

03:18:17   they're like, okay, here's a setup,

03:18:18   But rather than trying to sort of model footage from similar large infantry battles, we'll just do whatever seems the most dramatic.

03:18:27   And wookiees leaping from the barricades seems dramatic.

03:18:30   It's bananas.

03:18:32   My complaint with that is that I didn't know any of those wookiees.

03:18:36   I didn't care whether they won.

03:18:37   I didn't care about it.

03:18:38   I don't care about anything that's going on there.

03:18:40   It's just like, I have more investment in video game.

03:18:43   I think, yes, exactly.

03:18:45   I think you might have had they acted in any kind of way that made any kind of sense at

03:18:49   all.

03:18:50   I think there's probably characters or at least, I was about to say NPCs, but whatever,

03:18:58   extras in Empire Strikes Back that you are more interested in than any of those Wookiees.

03:19:04   Like, you know, the guy that presses the remote control button that fires that cannon at the

03:19:09   AT-AT leg in Empire Strikes Back?

03:19:13   Yeah, but that was, yeah, but see the thing is that was a battle that was happening around our heroes who we care about.

03:19:19   This thing that the prequels do, that they add at the end of Jedi as well, is...

03:19:23   It's pointless.

03:19:24   A survey of conflicts happening across the galaxy not involving anybody you care about.

03:19:29   It's like they needed to express the idea of "we've given this order, and everywhere on every planet, any Jedi out there are being killed."

03:19:36   And so it's like a survey of like, "on this planet, these people are fighting. On this planet, these people are fighting. On this planet..."

03:19:41   And that does not make a movie that doesn't even make a good documentary Ken Burns

03:19:44   like you have to you have to have investment in the conflict and

03:19:49   You can briefly show that maybe something else is going on elsewhere

03:19:51   Like they do this in disaster movies like in the beginning they showed that the the crumbling of civilization

03:19:56   But that's just like a brief aside to the main story

03:20:00   It can't be the cut your climax can't be a survey of battles happening on other planets

03:20:04   just suffice it to say the good guys the bad guys are fighting people everywhere and we will tell through music cues or whatever which

03:20:09   I don't care is anybody here that I care about where are my heroes do I care about any of these movies?

03:20:15   like imagine if the first and only time we meet Sonny and the Godfather is two minutes before he

03:20:22   Rashley leaves and you know goes through the hole they would just show all the death scenes

03:20:27   They wouldn't show the movie for and they'd be like guys killed that guy that guy killed in a revolving door

03:20:31   This guy got killed at a toll booth

03:20:33   It's like yeah

03:20:33   Oh and we we care about sunny in the tollbooth because we've seen him in two hours and we've seen him before

03:20:39   act out of bad temper and

03:20:42   You know

03:20:44   We don't want to be he's kind of a bad guy, but we still kind of like him, you know, and it's you know

03:20:48   It's like the culmination of Michael's plan is all those people dying. It's because we realize it's the culmination of plan

03:20:54   We know who those people are we you know

03:20:56   And and we understand how he is coordinated all this to happen when he is he is in someplace that is essentially untouchable

03:21:02   while it's going on and by the time he gets out it's all settled.

03:21:04   Right. He spent the entire three movies showing the wrong stuff and developing the wrong stuff

03:21:11   and then just rushed through with and therefore with no emotional impact whatsoever these characters

03:21:18   who should have been developed. We had three whole movies where they could have developed,

03:21:21   let's just say six Jedi, six different Jedi who in the course of three movies could have been made

03:21:28   into real characters with varying flaws and personalities and then they die at

03:21:33   the or you just show like even if you didn't that or you just show whatever is

03:21:37   happening to the characters that we supposedly care about and have them have

03:21:42   them establish to be I care about the Jedi and have them here that the Jedi

03:21:46   are dying elsewhere you don't need to show them because if I care about them

03:21:49   like you can have heroes in situations where they find out that bad things are

03:21:53   happening elsewhere but you don't need to show the bad things right happening

03:21:56   You can just show that my main characters care about this therefore I care about it, but it's not so important

03:22:00   So how do we how do we feel about the execution of order 66 because I thought that was actually one of the most effective

03:22:06   I

03:22:07   You know, I feel like there should have been a musical

03:22:10   You know like

03:22:14   What do they call them like it's not a segue like a

03:22:18   Motif like yeah, I keep thinking about goodfellas when when he's trying to get the cocaine all sort of that

03:22:24   You could sell any of that, but you have to have...

03:22:30   If you have a better movie leading up to it, how you communicate that a coordinated attack is taking place with essentially brainwashed clones who are always...

03:22:41   It's like the Manchurian candidate, like "oh, trigger this" and they all just do this order, they all know this order, and when the order comes they kill all the Jedi.

03:22:47   Fine, you can do that in lots of different ways, but you need to show the people who

03:22:54   care about that.

03:22:55   We care about these people, and these people care that all the Jedi are being killed.

03:22:58   That's what you need to focus on.

03:22:59   But it did kind of work.

03:23:00   It was ham-fisted, but we had seen many of those Jedi do stuff.

03:23:07   Or at least being in the background.

03:23:08   Right?

03:23:09   Yeah.

03:23:10   They didn't have many lines, they sat around a table, they smiled, they helped out in some

03:23:13   other movies, and now they're getting gunned down.

03:23:15   they played sad music, but it's just like yeah, it

03:23:18   Yeah, it doesn't matter something good

03:23:20   At that point you either earned it or you're having and they did yeah

03:23:24   Yeah

03:23:25   Which which brings us to the end of of that movie and it's the whole end of the whole trilogy

03:23:31   And it's the whole reason that the truth that prequel trilogy was even made which was to set up

03:23:35   the middle trilogy which was already established and it had to therefore had to

03:23:41   Leave us in a certain place and had to explain certain things

03:23:45   The whole point of it. This is the whole point

03:23:47   This is the only reason that the prequel trilogy was even made or written and it makes no goddamn sense whatsoever

03:23:54   So let's just say let's just give it up that all the most of the Jedi have been

03:23:59   Extinguished their dead exit order 66 killed him but obi-wan and Yoda are still together. Yeah, and

03:24:07   and

03:24:09   they figure out what's going on. They know who the Emperor is.

03:24:12   So,

03:24:14   why in the world would they split up?

03:24:16   Why wouldn't they either A)

03:24:19   go after Anakin? I would suggest that the first thing they should do is go after Anakin.

03:24:27   Together. Well, first of all, I think maybe they think Anakin is dead at that point. Or at least a non-factor.

03:24:32   No, they decide Yoda is going to go after the Emperor. Oh, sorry. Obi-Wan is going to go after...

03:24:37   I thought you meant after, like at the end when they rendezvous on what becomes said.

03:24:42   No, but that doesn't make any sense either. But before that, when they decide who to fight,

03:24:46   if they decide we should get the emperor first, they should go together. If they decide we should

03:24:51   go take care of Anakin, either see if we can turn him back to the good side or do something

03:24:56   with him, why in the world would they split up? It makes no sense whatsoever.

03:25:02   The only conceivable rationale for that is that if you act swiftly and by surprise and take out both of them, maybe that counts for something.

03:25:12   But no, I would just go, I would take Yoda and go talk to Anakin.

03:25:16   Like to see it's, if you have to kill him, Yoda could do it.

03:25:22   You know, like, while I, I mean, Kenobi even says on stage, on screen that he can't kill him.

03:25:30   kill him and then Yoda says no go do it like what why would you why would you assign him that like

03:25:35   he's already basically said that it's not gonna be but then even given that the asinine nature of

03:25:43   their let's split up even though there's only two of us left and you know right now we have the

03:25:48   we could have the element of surprise and go if there's any chance that one of us could beat the

03:25:52   emperor surely we have a better chance together we could do it right now even if you take that

03:25:56   Just let him do that and say, "Yoda fights the Emperor, and Obi-Wan fights Vader and

03:26:02   thinks he kills him."

03:26:04   Even then, afterwards, you find out, "Well, Obi-Wan did almost kill Vader and left him

03:26:11   deformed and semi-crippled, and Yoda at least fought the Emperor to a standstill."

03:26:17   And then they decide, "Well, now we'll just spend 20 years."

03:26:21   Yeah, it seems like they could have teamed up and taken out the Emperor at that point.

03:26:25   Like Yoda did come pretty close to taking him out

03:26:28   Especially since their plan wasn't okay you go take Luke to Tatooine

03:26:33   Hide him from the Emperor and slowly train him as a Jedi that wasn't their plan either

03:26:37   It was like you go hide in Tatooine. Luke will be there keep your eye on them

03:26:41   But don't try to actually train him up for it. Like what are they waiting for?

03:26:43   What was there? What was their plan for victory?

03:26:46   Right at the moment that they split up and went into hiding they both had fought they wanted defeated the other and Obi wanted

03:26:54   soundly defeated Vader

03:26:56   And Yoda had fought the Emperor to a standstill

03:26:59   I would say and certainly I would say given that he fought him to an almost standstill if they went after him together

03:27:04   Obi-wan and Yoda you you know, I like their chances

03:27:07   See like by the time a new hope comes in an empire what what those movies say is that Yoda had checked out

03:27:14   He had a colossal failure

03:27:16   institutional failure to deal with the whole, you know, he

03:27:19   he was

03:27:21   He has failed and as he thought he could you know be the head of the light side

03:27:25   And you know so he's basically not an exile

03:27:27   But he's like he's given up and he's gotten off to live in the woods right so he's checked out right and obi-wan same thing

03:27:33   He's a crazy old man. He loves that and both of them are like we are defeated

03:27:37   This is our great shame the best obi-wan can do is to make sure Luke

03:27:40   Continues to hide from the Emperor hope he never exhibits any force powers keep him down on the farm

03:27:45   And then at the very least he can say at least I'm keeping these kids safe, but the Empire is one

03:27:50   We are defeated. We have no plan for victory. But like you said at the end of stupid episode 3

03:27:54   They're not in that headspace. They're not both

03:27:57   So massively defeated and so crushed by their own personal failings that they check out entirely from the conflict and say well

03:28:04   This is never gonna change. It's gonna go off somewhere hide and die, right?

03:28:07   Exactly, exactly. I had I just assumed even as I was suffering through those prequel trilogy

03:28:13   I was like something's gonna happen at the end of this that's gonna leave

03:28:16   Obi-wan and Yoda both like morally defeated and instead they both left like oh my god. We were so close

03:28:23   Not not only so close like if you were gonna kill Anakin he was right there you could have killed him

03:28:28   It's not like you didn't know he was still alive. Did you just assume he would die?

03:28:32   It's like a game of the Bond villain. It's like well. I'll just assume this machine will kill you mr.. Bond

03:28:35   I'm gonna leave the room now

03:28:36   Yeah, when I see you later in the movie. I'll be genuinely surprised I do I

03:28:41   I do kind of understand the notion of not wanting to murder Anakin in cold blood, which is effectively what it would have been.

03:28:47   But then you save him!

03:28:48   Well, exactly. You either save him or once he catches fire, maybe you walk back down an embankment and just-

03:28:53   It's like the most morally cowardly thing. It's like, "I'm not gonna kill you, but if you happen to slide into that lava a little farther, I'll deal with that too."

03:28:59   Yeah, that's horrible. It's what it is. It's just awful.

03:29:01   No, I mean, no wonder he ends up extra pissed off.

03:29:04   Yeah, and...

03:29:06   I hated that fight between, um...

03:29:10   Yoda and the Emperor. That was awful. That was just awful.

03:29:14   I liked when Yoda walked in and just totally destroyed the two Imperial guards.

03:29:19   The Emperor is a fun guy to watch fight because he's kind of ugly.

03:29:24   He was fine when the four Jedi showed up. When the Jedi showed up to arrest him, I was fine with that.

03:29:29   Because I liked the fact that he actually would. I could see him using a lightsaber because,

03:29:35   Well, A, he's no height, so it's not that obscure.

03:29:39   But I also like the notion that he's just... hasn't quite reached that level of enlightenment yet, that he doesn't need one.

03:29:46   Yoda always strikes me as somebody who's just...

03:29:49   Well, before the...

03:29:51   The emperors seem kind of like...

03:29:52   The emperors seem kind of feral.

03:29:54   Exactly.

03:29:54   I liked when the emperor and Yoda were fighting, and Yoda was like using the force to move heavy things,

03:29:58   and the emperor was, you know, shooting at him with lightning or whatever.

03:30:01   Yeah, well, yeah.

03:30:02   Although the lightning ultimately screws him up, doesn't he?

03:30:06   He gets thrown off and his little nails get stuck into the...

03:30:10   That's a good question.

03:30:13   I've never seen a good...

03:30:14   Jonas and I have talked about that a lot.

03:30:16   So we've never even mentioned Mace Windu, who to me, I love Sam Jackson.

03:30:20   A waste of Sam Jackson.

03:30:22   Exactly.

03:30:23   Yeah, a waste.

03:30:24   What?

03:30:25   What a waste of him.

03:30:26   Yeah, what a waste, because he's awesome.

03:30:27   He could have been a bad guy, or he could have been some kind of weird, vone-in Jedi.

03:30:31   awesome and he's also in he's also into Star Wars he wanted to be in the movies

03:30:34   and what he was given is like he does a bad job with the line readings he has no

03:30:38   charisma to the character the character has nothing to do he doesn't seem like a

03:30:40   badass it's just like how can Sam Jackson not seem like a badass well he

03:30:44   seems more badass than anybody else if only because everybody else is

03:30:47   completely wooden so there is a cool thing in that scene where they go to

03:30:52   confront the Emperor and the Emperor just jumps at them with a weird fighting

03:30:57   style like you said Farrell is perfect and I love the way that he like killed

03:31:01   four of them in like ten seconds like he's so badass and there's never been a

03:31:05   lightsaber fight like that every other lightsaber fight we've ever seen up

03:31:08   until this point was dramatic and had ebbs and flows and even like when Dooku

03:31:13   in the second movie was kind of dominant over Obi-Wan and Anakin it took him a

03:31:18   while took him a while to cut off Anakin's hand it took him a while to

03:31:21   get Obi-Wan you know pinned under a column whereas the Emperor is such a

03:31:24   - Badass, like boom, boom, boom.

03:31:26   - Yeah.

03:31:27   I mean, they light their lightsabers

03:31:30   and then they're on the floor.

03:31:31   Like that's just, yeah.

03:31:31   - So this is the thing about the fight scenes

03:31:33   in all these movies.

03:31:34   If you're going to have a fight scene,

03:31:36   unless your movie is about fighting styles,

03:31:38   unless it's like one of those classic Kung Fu movies

03:31:40   where the whole frigging movie is about,

03:31:41   I'm gonna learn crane technique

03:31:42   and I'm gonna learn the tiger technique

03:31:44   and my technique is better than your technique

03:31:45   and I'm gonna train at a monastery.

03:31:47   Like unless your whole frigging movie

03:31:48   is about fighting techniques,

03:31:50   the fight can't be about who is a better fighter.

03:31:52   The fight has to be about something else.

03:31:54   and in the case of the Emperor going feral,

03:31:56   the part of that fight that was dramatic is

03:31:59   the Emperor is revealed.

03:32:00   He's revealed in a sudden fashion.

03:32:01   The people who are there are surprised that he's revealed.

03:32:03   It is not about how exactly he defeats those people.

03:32:06   When you have Emperor versus Yoda,

03:32:08   it's not about who is stronger and who is not.

03:32:10   The fight always has to be about something else.

03:32:11   Because again, unless your movie is a Kung Fu movie

03:32:14   where you're actually concentrating on fighting styles,

03:32:16   you always have to have the fight

03:32:18   be about something else from the fight

03:32:19   because that's what happens.

03:32:20   We're not like, otherwise you would just have a movie

03:32:23   where people have a conflict and then they just have a long grown out sword fight and

03:32:26   the winner of the sword fight wins the movie. That can't be what the fight is about. The

03:32:29   fight has to be about something else and they just happen to be fighting to work out whatever

03:32:33   else. It doesn't mean they need to have a conversation the whole time in the fight,

03:32:36   Princess Bride style or anything. But like, the fight has to be about something else.

03:32:41   The Emperor killing all those people, that particular fight is about, I am revealed,

03:32:46   this is me, I bet you're surprised this old guy can do this and here I am and quickly

03:32:49   kill them. And once that is done, the fight is over.

03:32:52   So here's the thing with that. I mean, I totally agree with you. And I think that goes back

03:32:55   to the point I was trying to make about the battles is that, you know, without anything,

03:33:01   any skin in the game, it just really doesn't matter. Really, the only character that showed

03:33:07   up to arrest Palpatine was Windu. The other guys were just fodder to prove that like,

03:33:14   Whoa, this guy's serious. And, you know, sure enough, he dispatched them and, you know,

03:33:21   popcorn. They didn't matter. The actual fight came down to Windu and Palpatine. And I thought

03:33:26   it was actually a pretty good fight. I did too. I actually think it was the best part of the whole

03:33:32   prequel. Because I think they both had something at stake. Certainly Windu represented the old

03:33:37   school strict Jedi order. And Palpatine was more so than the Yoda-Palpatine fight. Because it...

03:33:46   You know my interpretation of the way that scene went was that mace windu is indeed a badass

03:33:51   Maybe he's even more powerful than yoda because he's at least at the at the athletic

03:33:56   There is a line in there. It's uh, I think anakin delivers

03:33:59   It says something like I will be I want to be a better, uh sword fighter than mace windu than

03:34:05   Master windu something like or maybe yeah

03:34:08   They definitely shout out to to windu to be like yoda was always held up in that whatever this conversation was

03:34:15   Yoda was always held up. Yeah.

03:34:16   Which was really, yeah, there is one that shout outs that

03:34:21   sort of props Windu up as being a badass.

03:34:26   And I forget what it is.

03:34:27   Yeah, but like but but Sam Jackson, the actor could not deliver on that

03:34:31   because I guess they didn't have enough body doubles forever.

03:34:33   And he just looked kind of old and tired.

03:34:34   I like the way well, I kind of like that because I.

03:34:37   I kind of like the idea that I mean, he hasn't really been.

03:34:41   Well, actually, we just saw him fighting the second one.

03:34:44   I was gonna say maybe he was attached like he did. Yeah, I don't know

03:34:48   I liked it because it was less frenetic and you could just sort of see them. Yeah battling Palpatine was seen my interpretation

03:34:54   Yeah

03:34:56   Well, my interpretation of the cino is that Windu actually actually got the better of him and that Emperor Palpatine was not

03:35:03   Sandbagging he was desperate and that the only way he could save himself

03:35:08   The only way was if he could completely if he could complete Anakin's turn to the dark side

03:35:14   It either he could turn Anakin and and have Anakin, you know

03:35:18   Knock Windu out the window or cut off his arm, whatever he did first or he was dead

03:35:23   Palpatine was a loser his only chance had nothing he couldn't beat Mace Windu in the fight

03:35:29   He'd lost so the only way he could win was to complete Anakin's turn that was

03:35:32   I think Windu

03:35:35   It's a failure of the filmmaking that it's not clear that those were the stakes

03:35:40   And I always thought he was sandbagging a little bit just because that's kind of his MO where he was like, you know

03:35:45   It's hard to say I manipulate Anakin

03:35:47   That's my take but I have to admit that the other take that he was sandbagging and he could have

03:35:52   Up the force on Windu at any moment, you know, yeah

03:35:56   But it's sloppy filmmaking for that to be ambiguous is probably not intended to be ambiguous

03:36:00   It's like but then in my reading it was him

03:36:03   when he was shooting the force lightning at Windu and Windu was successfully blocking it with his lightsaber and

03:36:10   And his that's when he got deformed and you know

03:36:13   That was him like to Pete depleting his own life force like he'd I don't think he wanted to be disfigured

03:36:18   It wasn't like it was his true

03:36:20   Form he's not a shape-shifter. He was like wrecking himself

03:36:23   Because he was so desperate, you know

03:36:26   He was giving it everything he had and even everything he had wasn't enough to

03:36:30   Beat me that's my take - if only because again he deforms himself

03:36:34   but I'd really do think that it's just it's just a

03:36:39   condemnation of the filmmaking that it's ambiguous because this at the same level when that you know the the culmination in return of the Jedi

03:36:46   It's all very clear what the stakes are

03:36:49   There's amber couldn't beat mace Windu and one-on-one combat

03:36:52   He also couldn't beat Yoda like it at best you could say both of them came to draws or maybe mace at the upper hand

03:36:57   but that doesn't make sense in the context of the later movies the idea that

03:37:02   The Emperor is the top of the heap on the dark side and you would assume that

03:37:07   that one-on-one the Emperor could take out any of the single light side people simply because the dark side, you know

03:37:13   Not more powerful, but like in terms of killing people like you know, how do you get to be the head of the Sith?

03:37:20   Well, we also don't know how it works

03:37:22   It could be like the Peter Pan thing where every time you believe in a Sith guy he gets more powerful, you know, like

03:37:27   Yeah, I don't know

03:37:29   Is basically the question is is the Emperor at the end of Return of the Jedi more powerful than the Emperor in episode right?

03:37:35   And who knows also who cares just yeah, I would say yes

03:37:39   I think so too because it's like the Sith get like more powerful as they get old and more evil

03:37:44   Yeah, cuz I mean he's had 20 years to get rid of it being a badass, right or

03:37:47   Maybe not with his lightsaber, but at least with his you know his research into being evil

03:37:53   Well, no because I mean he you know they talk about that at the Opera. That's a great scene by the way well great

03:38:00   It's it's it's really good

03:38:02   It's nonsensical

03:38:05   How are you?

03:38:07   Stop people from dying. Did you ever care about somebody? Maybe you should slaughter children, but it's it's tense

03:38:13   It's an opera which I thought was kind of interesting. I like this stuff

03:38:17   But like and the actor what's his name?

03:38:22   He's creepy he's one of the better actors in the prequel trilogy who despite the fact that he's given stupid things to say deliver

03:38:30   Yeah, I regret saying great. It's great in the toilet bowl in which it swims. It's actually

03:38:37   it's pretty good. Isn't it so telling though that like

03:38:42   in the first trilogy, the original trilogy, everybody was at least clamoring for these

03:38:50   backstory prequels of, well, how did Vader get like this? How did Anakin turn to the dark side?

03:38:55   Whereas after the prequels nobody was like well, how did the Emperor learn to be a Sith while he was an up-and-coming politician?

03:39:02   That's the thing where you mentioned like in A New Hope where like they

03:39:05   offhandedly mentioned sorts of lots of things like Clone War or an Empire Ord Mandel or the the you know

03:39:11   All these things like they laid these little seeds of like oh you could flesh those out forward or backwards

03:39:15   What seeds were laid in the prequels? It's like the time began in the prequels. Like there was nothing mentioned in the prequels

03:39:20   Well, it was about things that happened before the prequels.

03:39:22   Darth Sidious, what was the name? The previous guy?

03:39:25   Darth Malus? Like the Plagueis?

03:39:28   Seriously?

03:39:31   Right, but like but those are that's not that's actually spoken in the thing. It's not like, you know, something casual

03:39:36   That was like a major plot point where they're describing a backstory, right?

03:39:40   Like the one and only thing I could think of that I'd kind of wanted to know more about was this

03:39:45   I have no idea. Thank you for bringing that up because that none of it makes it right

03:39:50   He was a Jedi who somehow commissioned a building of the was he killed by Dooku and then Dooku posed as him

03:39:57   It's too much exposition for like there's just too much plot happening

03:40:01   or like the structure isn't sturdy and then they hang

03:40:04   tinsel and ornaments all over the friggin thing until it's just a big giant mess and it's like you didn't even have good bone structure under

03:40:09   there and now now you

03:40:11   like a clone army of I don't know how many strong it's got to be hundreds of thousands right from what we see just

03:40:17   appears and the

03:40:19   Galactic Republic is like, "Oh, cool. Let's just use these guys? What?"

03:40:24   That's mind-boggling.

03:40:27   Clones aren't humans. It doesn't matter about the clones.

03:40:30   It doesn't matter, even if that many droids showed up to be on your site.

03:40:36   It's not a matter of what they are.

03:40:38   It's worse than that. It's like saying if you wanted to have a standing army made entirely of identical twins,

03:40:43   it would be okay if they all got slaughtered.

03:40:45   Because they're all genetically identical.

03:40:47   Once you're genetically identical, it's like, well...

03:40:49   There's only that aspect.

03:40:51   You don't even count as human. If anybody shares their genes with you, you don't count as human.

03:40:55   But even a guy like Dooku, who has in broad strokes sounds like an interesting guy,

03:41:01   was a real Jedi, turned to the dark side, left the order...

03:41:05   Which, you know what, they make it sound like no big deal.

03:41:08   Oh, he's an ex-Jedi. He can't possibly do that.

03:41:11   So that makes me think that ex-Jedis are a thing.

03:41:14   Yeah, that's you know, some guys leave and get whatever they do. Yeah into yeah go into

03:41:21   professional sports or something. That's still good guys, but you know, yeah.

03:41:25   In broad strokes, if you just defined the character before you showed me the movie,

03:41:30   I would think, "Oh, that's an interesting guy. I would like to know more about him."

03:41:33   Then you watch the movie and you're like, "I would I am not interested in the least

03:41:36   bit in this broad caricature of evil." Well, I have something for you. And you know,

03:41:43   He's a robot with four arms and eight lightsabers.

03:41:46   How much less could you care about somebody's design?

03:41:53   I mean.

03:41:54   Well, I like the idea of taking lightsabers from here.

03:41:57   That I like.

03:41:58   And you know what?

03:41:59   He worked well in that in that cell animation one that we were talking

03:42:03   about at the top of the show.

03:42:05   I like that character.

03:42:06   And then I saw him in in in film and he stinks.

03:42:13   He's awful. It's just yeah, he was just empty

03:42:15   He was just empty bad guy and they even reused the the the idea of having a respiratory problem from vader

03:42:22   You know

03:42:24   It's just a hodgepodge. I do like the way he's dispatched by kenobi with a blaster because you get a cute

03:42:29   You get a cute action hero line out of it

03:42:32   Yeah, that wasn't that wasn't good but it you know wasn't bad yeah no

03:42:38   Well, and it raises the question of how many?

03:42:41   um how many one-on-one duels can you fit in one movie

03:42:47   i mean because that's really what that last movie devolved into is just one

03:42:51   after it was pretty hilarious that um

03:42:55   uh grievous just starts shit talking kenobi despite the fact that

03:43:00   and he keeps doing it despite the fact that kenobi's chopped off to his arms

03:43:04   ready and he's still he's still giving like you

03:43:06   can't escape it's like i've just started cutting you to pieces i'm pretty sure

03:43:10   I'm doing pretty good here

03:43:12   like he jumps into like a

03:43:14   ring of a hundred droids and then just you know

03:43:17   Chops up the bad guy and the bad guy is still giving him shit like, you know, maybe turn that back a little bit

03:43:23   So there's there's Darth Maul. There's Count Dooku. There's Grievous and even the Emperor himself

03:43:30   You've got four major bad guys in a whole trilogy and there's not one of them who I would like to know more about

03:43:35   You know or how he came to be who he is

03:43:38   No, you could combine them all into a janko fit maybe

03:43:42   Yeah, maybe maybe

03:43:46   But I still think it's kind of a jit that they just duplicated at least he meets a better end in his son

03:43:53   Yeah

03:43:55   Yeah, all right. I think we've gone on long enough. This has been everything I could ask for more. It's a true holiday

03:44:01   spectacular

03:44:05   Yeah, I don't thank our sponsors we've got to get Marco on

03:44:08   Holes and Dan Morin, that's it

03:44:15   You guys did yeah, sorry for not getting you out of the greenery now. I want to thank our sponsors

03:44:21   We had Casper we had fracture and we had back blaze

03:44:25   This is all I could ask for and more

03:44:28   John Sir, Cusa and Guy English. Thank you very very much for

03:44:33   enormous amount of your time thanks it's been a lot of fun it's a lot of Star

03:44:37   Wars to cover you know yeah we're still not done but it was pretty good no no

03:44:41   we'll come back for part two perfect or or Empire Day all right thank you guys

03:44:49   I'm going to bed