The Talk Show

305: ‘Star Wars: The Mandalorian’ Holiday Spectacular, With Special Guests Guy English and John Siracusa’


00:00:00   He says he joined.

00:00:02   Your weird avatar is not an apple guy.

00:00:04   You can pick which picture you want to like, vend to people, and the picture you've chosen

00:00:08   is the picture of you when you're 15.

00:00:10   I mean, my picture is old.

00:00:13   Hi John!

00:00:14   Nice to see you.

00:00:15   My picture is old, but your picture...

00:00:17   I love you too, man.

00:00:19   I really miss you, it's been a tough year.

00:00:21   Uh huh.

00:00:22   Uh huh, you gotta learn how to work all this apple stuff.

00:00:25   That's on apple.

00:00:26   It's not on apple, it's on you!

00:00:28   It's gonna be a long three hours, is what I'm...

00:00:32   A tight 60.

00:00:33   A tight 60.

00:00:35   Does dithering usually start on time, Mr. "Let's get on Skype in five minutes and take

00:00:41   eight minutes" show?

00:00:42   Yeah, exactly.

00:00:43   Dithering is the antithesis of what either of you are capable of, and it is a remarkable

00:00:49   show.

00:00:50   Dithering starts within a dithering of when it's supposed to start.

00:00:54   Great.

00:00:55   You're only ever off by 100%.

00:00:58   Right, so we're done recording within two days.

00:01:07   It works.

00:01:08   Hold on.

00:01:09   Something bizarre here.

00:01:11   Because I have not been podcasting over the break, I've got this old Catalina system,

00:01:17   and somehow I got an alert, like a notification, that said "Automatic updates have been turned

00:01:23   on", which I didn't think could happen.

00:01:27   I mean, if you turn them on, they turn it on.

00:01:28   I didn't turn them on.

00:01:29   Click a checkbox?

00:01:30   Yeah, no, but now they're all turned on in software update.

00:01:34   Hold on.

00:01:35   Now I'm just...

00:01:37   I don't believe...

00:01:38   Honestly, if that is a policy that apple has adopted, you've got to scoop, because that's

00:01:45   not right.

00:01:46   I don't want any of this.

00:01:49   Come on.

00:01:50   All right.

00:01:51   All right, I'm recording.

00:01:52   You guys are recording your end?

00:01:53   Yeah.

00:01:54   All right, this will be tight.

00:01:57   Let's...

00:01:58   Hey, do you know what?

00:02:03   Just to get it off the top.

00:02:05   Hey, Suki has said, "Happy Christmas.

00:02:09   Hope you guys are doing well."

00:02:11   Happy Christmas.

00:02:12   Is that in Canada too?

00:02:13   That's how they say it.

00:02:14   For crying out loud.

00:02:16   I think it's only in Quebec though.

00:02:19   In what?

00:02:20   You know what?

00:02:21   I don't know.

00:02:22   Never mind.

00:02:23   Take it back.

00:02:24   Merry Christmas to all.

00:02:25   Yeah, yeah.

00:02:26   To all a good night.

00:02:27   Well, and by the time we're done recording, it'll be your birthday.

00:02:30   Sure.

00:02:32   Happy New Year.

00:02:35   Happy birthday, my friend.

00:02:36   I thought we were saving that.

00:02:38   Just so you know, Jon, I had to...

00:02:41   Never mind.

00:02:42   Well, what are we saving it for?

00:02:44   Well, we're saving it for, I don't know, a surprise where I get to feel like the guy

00:02:48   that actually knew it and you got to be the guy that was surprised by it.

00:02:52   It's such a hard date to remember right now.

00:02:54   Well, do you know what?

00:02:56   I texted Jon earlier.

00:02:58   This should go in the show.

00:02:59   I hope this goes in the show.

00:03:01   I texted Jon earlier and I'm like, "Eh, my computer tells me that it's Jon's birthday

00:03:07   today or tomorrow, and I'm not sure I believe it because it could just be a date that got

00:03:14   rounded off to like..."

00:03:16   No, that would be... you get extra points now if you know the Mac epoch.

00:03:21   No looking it up.

00:03:22   Oh, 1970s.

00:03:23   Nope.

00:03:24   Nope.

00:03:25   January 1st, 2004.

00:03:26   January 1st, 2000.

00:03:27   Nope, 1904.

00:03:28   I think that's right.

00:03:31   I think it's right.

00:03:32   The 1904 part sounds right.

00:03:34   The January 1st, I'm not sure about.

00:03:36   I'm pretty sure it's January 1st, 1904.

00:03:37   Well, it has to be January 1st.

00:03:39   Honestly, I'm going to bet harder on January 1st than 1904.

00:03:44   Oh, you got it.

00:03:46   January 1st, 1904.

00:03:47   Yeah, and the reason I think...

00:03:49   I believe the backstory...

00:03:50   I can't believe I know this and it's not you.

00:03:52   I believe the reason they started at 1904 instead of 1900 was... which would be a lot

00:04:00   easier because then you could easily convert the... remember back when we used to do dates

00:04:05   years as two-digit numbers?

00:04:09   Just add 1900.

00:04:10   But they avoided 1900 because of the weird leap year rules around centuries.

00:04:17   And I know 2000 was like the super weird one where usually if it's a century, it doesn't

00:04:23   count as a leap year because it's like you only need 19 non-leap years out of a century

00:04:30   to keep the earth... you know what I mean?

00:04:33   It's like a weird thing where like 1900...

00:04:35   First of all, you don't keep the earth in anything.

00:04:38   You keep us aligned with the way that the earth is going.

00:04:43   But yeah, definitely.

00:04:45   That makes sense.

00:04:47   Also, I think it's a little bit of a flipping the bird at convention.

00:04:52   Yeah.

00:04:53   Well, you know, so you don't run out of...

00:04:55   UNIX runs out of years, you know.

00:04:57   Right.

00:04:58   Real shit.

00:04:59   Right.

00:05:00   And then this ran out when?

00:05:01   2007-ish?

00:05:02   Yeah, something like that.

00:05:05   I forget.

00:05:06   The basic idea was that by starting the epoch at 1904, they could have fewer leap year rules

00:05:12   in the system and it wouldn't break until 2100.

00:05:17   They were ready for the year 2000, but were not ready for the year 1900.

00:05:23   Anyway, this is a Star Wars holiday spectacular.

00:05:29   The most erratic annual, semi-annual... what's the word for... there's bi...

00:05:35   Bi-annual, yeah.

00:05:37   Bi-annual is what?

00:05:38   Every other year?

00:05:41   Or twice a year?

00:05:43   Isn't bi-weekly one of those things?

00:05:45   Bi-weekly is the one that means both.

00:05:47   Yeah.

00:05:48   Let's just go with bi-annual.

00:05:50   Here's the thing.

00:05:52   Here's the thing.

00:05:53   Do you know what we didn't talk about?

00:05:55   What?

00:05:56   Uh, Vice of Skywalker.

00:06:00   Well, see, now I'm getting to that.

00:06:02   We just skipped it.

00:06:03   We just skipped it.

00:06:04   There was other opportunities...

00:06:05   As is appropriate, I think.

00:06:07   I think so too.

00:06:08   Let me get through the introduction.

00:06:11   Here's the way it goes.

00:06:12   Good luck.

00:06:14   So it's not every year, but it's most years, but there is no set schedule, so it's like

00:06:20   errata annual.

00:06:22   It's erratically annual.

00:06:25   During the break between Christmas and New Year's, there's a holiday Star Wars spectacular

00:06:30   episode of this podcast, and we talk about Star Wars, and we did it for The Rise of Skywalker.

00:06:40   Nope.

00:06:41   Nope.

00:06:42   Nope.

00:06:43   That's the only one we didn't do.

00:06:45   We did it for The Last Jedi.

00:06:50   You know 1904, but you don't know the name of the second most recent Star Wars movie.

00:06:56   I don't remember which one we did it for.

00:06:57   The Last Jedi?

00:06:58   I do love that he's got 1904 after Tafu's tongue.

00:07:04   That's pretty great.

00:07:06   You know, this brings me to a good point, though.

00:07:09   I think it's me getting older, but one of the points I want to talk about is that I

00:07:14   remember the obscure names of spaceships and characters, characters who had no lines or

00:07:20   no lines in English from the original trilogy, and there are major characters in The Mandalorian

00:07:27   and the new Star Wars movies whose names I'll never remember.

00:07:31   They're right in front of me, and then I can look away from the piece of paper and I'll

00:07:34   forget them.

00:07:35   So I think the 1904 thing qualifies as that.

00:07:38   That got seared into my young brain, which had great memory, and the new stuff home.

00:07:44   And they have the Mac Epoch action figure from Kenner, which really cemented that.

00:07:52   You know what?

00:07:53   I had to get the character names right because you had to make your Christmas list.

00:07:57   See, now this is where there's that massive overlap between the three of us.

00:08:04   There's a lot of things we all love, and then we're all different in our own ways.

00:08:07   But I feel like one way that all three of us would agree is that when you were asking

00:08:11   for Star Wars toys, I made a very precise list that was unambiguous and could not possibly

00:08:20   have generated any mistakes or errors in terms of, like, should the X-wing toy be the full-size

00:08:28   toy that you could put the action figure in or the smaller die-cast model?

00:08:33   Well, I didn't want to have any ambiguity.

00:08:35   I needed the one you could put the action figures in.

00:08:38   And so I put, like, you know, I forget how I clarified it.

00:08:41   You circled it in the catalogue is what you did.

00:08:43   Right, exactly.

00:08:44   Yes.

00:08:45   You did it out of attachments.

00:08:46   Right.

00:08:47   And that is something that I have never admitted, even to my mother, to anybody I've ever loved.

00:08:55   And since it's just the three of us here, I kind of want to get it off my chest.

00:09:00   When I was very young, I guess eight, seven or eight, I was living in an apartment that

00:09:07   we just moved in after we'd left England.

00:09:10   And I wanted an add-up.

00:09:12   I wanted an add-up.

00:09:14   That was no shame in that.

00:09:16   No, there's no shame in that.

00:09:20   But John, you know me.

00:09:23   The shame is coming.

00:09:27   I went looking for Christmas presents in my mother's closet.

00:09:34   And I found one.

00:09:37   And it was, I forget what it was.

00:09:41   It might as well have been a jigsaw puzzle of an add-at when I wanted the actual add-at.

00:09:50   And I addressed it to her after having discovered it without wanting to let her know that I'd

00:09:59   actually gone and found the present that I had to hope for.

00:10:05   And I was like, "Hey, Mom, just so you know what I want.

00:10:11   I want an actual add-at.

00:10:13   You know, not, let's say, a jigsaw puzzle of an add-at.

00:10:21   That's less fun.

00:10:23   I want an add-at."

00:10:25   And I was not as keenly James Bond-ish as I would have liked to have been at the age of seven.

00:10:37   You were not suave about it, in other words, you're saying?

00:10:40   No, no, not at all.

00:10:41   And I still remember that look on her face.

00:10:44   And I, "Mom, if you listen to this, I'm so sorry.

00:10:48   I did you poorly.

00:10:49   I really did.

00:10:50   I really did want that add-at, and you came through.

00:10:54   She really did come through.

00:10:55   Like I got an add-at for Christmas."

00:10:57   But your reward for this terrible act as you get the actual add-at, I never got the add-at.

00:11:02   I had to go over to my friend's house and play with his add-at.

00:11:03   I did not get the add-at.

00:11:05   I can tell you.

00:11:08   This was not a great contribution to me as a human being, but it worked out in that year

00:11:15   in a very small way.

00:11:16   I was never a present snooper.

00:11:20   I think it peaked around the age of 10, and I did find, I believe for my birthday, I found

00:11:27   the BMX bike that I was getting.

00:11:31   And I did go looking for it because I was so curious.

00:11:33   And I realized there was no way they could really, there was only one place they could

00:11:36   hide it.

00:11:37   It's sort of like a sub closet at the back of the basement.

00:11:42   And there it was.

00:11:43   Oh, and it was beautiful.

00:11:45   But the other one I found accidentally, and it was so jarring and shocking to me that

00:11:51   I don't quite remember if it was a birthday or Christmas, but I suspect it was a Christmas,

00:11:55   is I got the Millennium Falcon.

00:11:57   The big Kenner.

00:11:58   Oh, man.

00:11:59   Pop the top off, throw some characters in there.

00:12:02   And it was the greatest present I ever got.

00:12:04   And I kind of thought it was a stretch goal to ask for it because I don't know what it

00:12:08   cost, but it seemed like insanely expensive.

00:12:11   It was like, I don't know, 60 bucks.

00:12:13   And it was like, "What?"

00:12:14   And it was huge.

00:12:15   It's like, "Ah, there's no way I'm getting that."

00:12:18   But I got it, and it was the greatest thing ever.

00:12:19   Thanks, Mom.

00:12:20   Thanks, Dad.

00:12:21   Yeah.

00:12:22   I do feel like a real jerk.

00:12:25   What was the best Star Wars toy you had growing up, John?

00:12:29   You just mentioned that BMX thing.

00:12:30   I was a present snooper, but somehow they hid my BMX bike for me.

00:12:34   That might be an X-bike.

00:12:35   My 1984 Mongoose Californian was the best Christmas present I ever received.

00:12:40   But on the Star Wars category specifically, I didn't get most of the things that I wanted.

00:12:46   I did have the tie that the wings popped off and the X-wing that the character goes in.

00:12:53   I also had the Death Star with the trash compactor with the square foam cubes.

00:13:01   I think my best one, and these were weird.

00:13:02   Not a lot of people had these.

00:13:03   I don't know if you had these.

00:13:05   Do you remember the 12-inch figures?

00:13:07   Yes.

00:13:08   Yes, I do.

00:13:09   They were fantastic, and I had a Boba Fett.

00:13:11   Oh, and that was cool.

00:13:14   I had a Boba Fett, Darth Vader, Luke, and Leia.

00:13:17   The Boba Fett was obviously my favorite.

00:13:20   Did it have some cloth too?

00:13:22   Yes, that's what I'm saying.

00:13:24   It was before the age of these hyper-realistic toys that look really like the thing on the

00:13:28   screen.

00:13:29   Obviously, the Kenner toys were great and everything, but they didn't even have elbows

00:13:32   and knees that moved.

00:13:33   They were pretty sketchy-looking in terms of fidelity.

00:13:36   Boba Fett was cool, and I had him, not with the shooting missile, but I had the regular

00:13:40   one.

00:13:41   But the 12-inch Boba Fett might as well have been.

00:13:42   It was like an HD, right?

00:13:44   Yes, a cloth cape, plastic head that looked like the one in the movie.

00:13:48   They didn't have articulated joints either, but they were just so much bigger and more

00:13:52   realistic-looking.

00:13:53   Very cool.

00:13:54   Did you guys ever watch The Toys That Made Me?

00:13:56   It's a Netflix documentary.

00:13:58   It covers a lot of…

00:14:00   Right.

00:14:01   They talk about G.I.

00:14:02   Joe at that point, and I think that 12-inch Boba Fett is in line of those old precursor

00:14:11   G.I.

00:14:12   Joe figures that were 12 inches tall, very articulated, and very much in the doll category.

00:14:24   I don't like to make that distinction.

00:14:27   So here's the thing, and I don't think you believe that, is that there was a distinction

00:14:33   between action figures and dolls.

00:14:35   Whatever.

00:14:36   You're playing with dolls, right?

00:14:39   This was very much an action figure.

00:14:45   A grossly rendered action figure, right?

00:14:50   As opposed to the sort of, what are they, like the G.I.

00:14:53   Joe characters, or what, six inches tall?

00:14:56   These things were big and manipulative, and they felt more like an entity in your life

00:15:04   rather than something that you could make a recreation of the Alamo with.

00:15:10   Do you know what I mean?

00:15:13   They were things.

00:15:14   They were things that you interacted with rather than being playthings that you could

00:15:18   place in a battlefield.

00:15:19   I was going to bring it up.

00:15:23   You said that, and it brings to mind that whoever, whichever, and you know it was some

00:15:27   Don Draper, Madman type guy who came up with the phrase "action figure."

00:15:34   And I get it.

00:15:35   And it is funny.

00:15:36   We're of a generation.

00:15:37   We're now in 2020.

00:15:39   We can all say, "Well, if your young son wants to play with dolls, or your young daughter

00:15:45   wants to play with army Star Wars characters with lightsabers and guns, it's all good.

00:15:52   Nobody just has fun.

00:15:54   You don't need to worry about words like that.

00:15:56   It's all silly."

00:15:57   But 1978, '79, it mattered.

00:16:00   We learned that from William Watson's doll on Free To Be You and Me.

00:16:03   We knew it was right.

00:16:06   I had a doll.

00:16:07   I carried a baby doll.

00:16:08   Her name was Kelkie.

00:16:10   And that was because we had a neighbor who was a few years older than me.

00:16:16   Her name was Kelly.

00:16:18   And I guess as a young three-year-old, I had a crush on her.

00:16:22   Not a crush-crush, but looked up to her because she was the neighbor.

00:16:27   Are you telling me that as a three-year-old, you didn't have a crush-crush?

00:16:30   No, you know what I mean?

00:16:32   No, but I liked my Kelkie doll more than I liked Kelly the neighbor.

00:16:36   Once I had the baby doll, I mean, and I couldn't pronounce Kelly, so the baby was Kelkie.

00:16:43   And she was a little…

00:16:45   You'll know the type of doll.

00:16:47   It had a hard head and hard hands, like articulated plastic.

00:16:51   But a squishy body.

00:16:52   But a squishy pillow body.

00:16:54   And I carried Kelkie with me everywhere I went by the arm.

00:17:00   And so the arm…

00:17:01   Eventually, my mom had to sew the arm back on.

00:17:04   And then at some point, that wasn't working.

00:17:07   And my mom, I believe, went out and bought me a replacement.

00:17:11   And I didn't fall for it.

00:17:15   But my dad was very… my dad's a good man.

00:17:19   And he's all on board with it.

00:17:20   My dad was not a fan of, at the time, of taking me, let's say, to the bank with him.

00:17:26   And I would tote along my Kelkie.

00:17:29   He needed to listen more freely to you than me.

00:17:31   Exactly.

00:17:32   He'd be cool with it now.

00:17:33   Yeah, but I think that's true for all of us, right?

00:17:37   We are in a different place now than we were 20 years ago, for sure.

00:17:42   Oh, yeah.

00:17:43   20 years ago was the year 2000, dude.

00:17:45   I know.

00:17:46   I know.

00:17:47   And here's the thing.

00:17:48   Here's why I picked that is that I knew both of you 20 years ago.

00:17:51   And that's uncomfortable.

00:17:54   Yeah, that's true.

00:17:56   I just looked up the 12-inch Boba Fett, by the way.

00:17:58   If I had kept the box, apparently I could sell it for three grand on eBay today.

00:18:02   Wow.

00:18:03   So here's the thing about that.

00:18:05   So this bothered me a lot, though.

00:18:07   And the one toy…

00:18:08   So a massive Kenner toy that I did not want, because I could just tell before I even saw

00:18:14   it at a friend's house, I was like, "I don't want it," is I did not want the Death Star,

00:18:19   because the Death Star was clearly a Death Star-inspired playset, where it was sort of

00:18:25   like a bunch of interior sets from the Death Star, as opposed to a thing that looked like

00:18:33   the Death Star, that you could take a panel off and put people in.

00:18:38   So the Death Star playset was a semi-sphere, basically?

00:18:41   No, it wasn't even a sphere.

00:18:45   As I recall, it was just like an apartment building.

00:18:47   It was just a rectangle.

00:18:48   Really?

00:18:49   My recollection was that it was just like a cutaway of a floor that bent in kind of

00:18:53   an angle.

00:18:54   Like, it wasn't even… there was no hint that it was in a giant gray sphere.

00:18:58   I mean, they don't do that to this day.

00:18:59   Look at the LEGO Death Star.

00:19:00   It has no relation to the actual Death Star, because it's just too darn big.

00:19:04   The thing I'm familiar with interacting with was a semi-sphere, and it had a trash

00:19:10   compactor.

00:19:11   Oh, I've got…

00:19:13   It was all made out of cardboard.

00:19:16   It was not great.

00:19:17   It was bad.

00:19:18   And it supports everything you're saying, but it was a specific thing.

00:19:24   Here, I just put in an iMessage.

00:19:26   This is what I had.

00:19:27   Trash compactor with… what do you call it?

00:19:31   What's the name of the monster in there?

00:19:33   Oh, I forget the name of the monster.

00:19:35   It begins with a D. Whatever.

00:19:37   Trash compactor monster.

00:19:38   Yeah.

00:19:39   Oh, no.

00:19:40   It's…

00:19:41   I got it.

00:19:42   Get it in a second.

00:19:43   Hang on.

00:19:44   Oh my god.

00:19:45   It's a terrible… it was a terrible toy, though.

00:19:46   It was just… you could fake it.

00:19:47   You didn't need it.

00:19:48   I didn't like it at all.

00:19:50   Oh, man.

00:19:51   This is what you had.

00:19:52   Okay, that's…

00:19:53   Diane Lugo.

00:19:54   That's not what I had.

00:19:55   That is what I had.

00:19:56   This is my biggest Star Wars toy, and honestly, I would have rather had either the AT-AT or

00:19:59   the Millennium Falcon.

00:20:00   Yeah.

00:20:01   The Millennium Falcon was the bomb.

00:20:03   And it even had a cool thing where the one landing gear was meant to be used as a pistol

00:20:07   grip.

00:20:08   You could keep it down, and then you could fly around your house with the Millennium

00:20:12   Falcon with this pistol grip down.

00:20:14   Very fun.

00:20:15   Very cool.

00:20:16   But it bothered me when the toys… there's an uncanny valley where it's like, "Okay,

00:20:22   so the original Han Solo did not look like Harrison Ford at all," because all of those

00:20:27   characters… they just had the most…

00:20:30   A melty, generic face.

00:20:32   Yeah.

00:20:33   Like, somebody… like, some kid who's actually pretty talented just carved a candle, you

00:20:38   know?

00:20:44   And they had eyes that were just sort of like… the eyes that you just draw as an idiot, you

00:20:49   know? Like, two dots and then, like, a little upside-down parenthesis, you know? Like, a

00:20:53   parenthesis for eyebrows.

00:20:54   Yeah, and the paint didn't land on the features, even, that way.

00:20:56   No!

00:20:57   They had gloves or boots. It was like, "Eh, the paint is more or less on the boot," and

00:21:01   then it kind of fades into, like…

00:21:02   Right, and then…

00:21:03   I'm looking at this 12-inch Vader again, and I realized that Boba Fett… looking at

00:21:06   these pictures, Boba Fett had articulated joints. Vader didn't. They were hollow plastic.

00:21:10   Like, Vader's arms and legs, like… the whole body of least Vader, anyway, was, like,

00:21:15   hollow plastic, but they didn't have elbows. But Boba Fett did, apparently. Maybe that's

00:21:18   why he liked them better.

00:21:19   Yeah. So, there was a 12-inch 3PO, an evader, and I believe they're from '77, because

00:21:26   I believe I saw them before… at a France house.

00:21:31   Before Empire Strikes Back came out. And I think that once Empire came out, it was like,

00:21:38   "Well, we're going to make a bunch of money, so let's make these better." I have never

00:21:43   seen a 12-inch Boba Fett. I did not know those existed. I knew they existed before Empire

00:21:51   came out, because I was trying to collect enough stickers in order to get one with a

00:21:55   rocket pack, and I did not.

00:21:58   There were so many things that bothered me. It bothered me that the lightsaber characters

00:22:03   had, instead of a lightsaber that went into their hand…

00:22:07   That was the worst.

00:22:08   … that little noodle that comes out.

00:22:11   And it was two different sides. And the worst part about it was, the lightsaber doesn't

00:22:16   have one section that's thicker and then the next section that's thinner. It's

00:22:20   uniform. Why would you do that? The only good thing about it was that my mother couldn't

00:22:24   take it away, because she took away the guns from all my other kind of figures.

00:22:30   Because of sort of a loose "no playing with guns" policy?

00:22:35   It was a very tight "no playing with guns" policy. Very tight.

00:22:39   Gotcha.

00:22:40   Well, seriously, sorry to create character on this, but do you resent that, or do you

00:22:47   think I was good?

00:22:49   I resent it.

00:22:50   Really? Because you're not like "I want to play with guns" kind of guy.

00:22:55   I wasn't big on it with my kids either, but come on. It's Star Wars, it's fantasy

00:23:02   violence. All I did was make my own guns out of wood anyway, so I was like, "You're

00:23:07   not stopping anything."

00:23:09   That is so true. And I know that "no guns" and I know there's guaranteed way too many

00:23:15   people who listen to this podcast. I know that there are literally almost certainly

00:23:20   thousands of people who are going to listen to this show who are currently raising kids

00:23:24   with a "no guns" policy, and there are thousands who are rolling their eyes saying,

00:23:29   "That's ridiculous and silly." I'm just saying, however you want to raise your kids

00:23:35   is all fine. But all I know is having raised a son in the last 17 years with numerous friends,

00:23:44   it was a thing we would check, right? Friends are coming over, what's the gun policy?

00:23:49   Because you don't want any trouble. The kids raised in the "no gun" family will pick

00:23:56   up anything and everything. I mean, like, oh, you know, you find a stick on the ground

00:24:04   that's vaguely L-shaped and it becomes a gun. Okay, sure, I did that. I'm talking

00:24:09   that the kids that Jonas grew up with in "no gun" families would pick up a gum wrapper,

00:24:15   like a piece of paper, and the kids would be playing something entirely else, and then

00:24:21   they would just fold it into a gun. They were nuts for making guns out of pieces of cellophane,

00:24:27   like not sticks, leaves. Just pick up a leaf and it would become a gun. And it's like,

00:24:32   I don't want to send the kid back to his house. I presume that his parents knew that

00:24:39   he was doing this, but it's like, I don't want him to think that they picked it up.

00:24:43   Jonas's dad taught me how to make a gun out of a piece of gum.

00:24:46   That's a little bit James Bond, though.

00:24:50   There's a whole nature/nurture thing going on there. But I mean, I didn't buy my kids'

00:24:54   guns ever. But when my kids got Star Wars figures, I didn't take the tiny little guns

00:24:59   away from the Star Wars figures. I feel like that's the right balance. I never wanted my

00:25:03   kids to have guns, especially realistic-looking guns. I never bought them for them, but I

00:25:06   did buy them Star Wars action figures/dolls, and if they came with guns, they came with

00:25:11   guns. And I think that's the right balance. Because if you do a hard ban, where it's like,

00:25:15   we got you a toy, but now we're removing one of the fun parts of the toy, that makes the

00:25:18   kid make a gun out of a gum wrapper, maybe.

00:25:21   Yeah. We bought Jonas all the guns.

00:25:24   Really? The only thing that kid has ever screwed me up with was really, really, really sour

00:25:33   treats. Nobody has made me want to vomit so much as your son trying to feed me a sour

00:25:44   treat in Ireland. That was the worst.

00:25:46   Those Irish sour candies are the sourest imaginable.

00:25:50   They're no joke.

00:25:51   They're like something from Harry Potter. They're magically imbued with the extra sour.

00:25:54   No, but anyway, we bought Jonas all the Star Wars guns. And in his generation, they were

00:25:58   all bright orange or green.

00:26:01   All the real guns are on computers now anyway. I played Destiny with Jonas. We know where

00:26:06   the real guns are at.

00:26:09   He's a gentle soul. It was never like a rough-hauser. Anyway, I would recommend not worrying about

00:26:18   it, but whatever you want to do. Anyway, long story short, it bothered me that their lightsabers

00:26:24   were like sticks that came out of their arms.

00:26:26   I always felt like that was an attempt at tapering and all they could do was like...

00:26:33   The manufacturer could only make...

00:26:34   That precision was all they could do and they were just like, "Yeah, good enough."

00:26:38   But they should have worried more about length. They were like a foot and a half long in scale,

00:26:45   right? They were like the length of their forearm because that's where they slid into.

00:26:48   So how could you make it longer than the forearm because they slide into the forearms? It was

00:26:51   just bad.

00:26:52   You know what? The Luke character had a yellow lightsaber.

00:26:55   Yeah, it was a mess. I mean, it was the type of thing where the toy manufacturer was like,

00:27:00   "Who cares what color it is in the movie? Whatever." And it turns out everybody cares.

00:27:04   Meanwhile, I'm five years old and I'm like, "Have you people ever even seen this movie?"

00:27:10   I'm so mad about it. I'm still mad.

00:27:12   They didn't realize that this was the movie that would literally create the first generation

00:27:15   of people who would care very deeply about the color of the flashlight.

00:27:19   In fact, too deeply. And I think we're going to touch on that if we ever talk about what

00:27:24   we're going to talk about.

00:27:25   But there were other aspects. There were other aspects that they... This is what bothered

00:27:29   me about it was that they clearly paid attention to other details. So Han Solo came with the

00:27:35   Han Solo DL-44 blaster. Now, see, now how do I know that his blaster was a DL-44?

00:27:41   Well, first of all, it's 44.

00:27:44   Again, I barely remember my own birthday anymore, but somehow DL-44, I remember. And the Stormtroopers

00:27:54   came with Stormtrooper little half rifles, whatever you want to call them. They got the

00:27:59   guns right. And it could have easily just made like Lego. You know, the way that Lego

00:28:03   just sort of has like one generic pistol and... Or like lightsabers, right? So all the Star

00:28:09   Wars figures from Lego have a generic... There's just a lightsaber piece and nobody worries

00:28:16   about whether it looks like Darth Vader's lightsaber.

00:28:18   You print them out by the thousands, you stick them in boxes.

00:28:21   So any of these Star Wars characters with a blaster could have had the same pistol and

00:28:26   it, you know... But they got it right. So why in the world wouldn't you get the color

00:28:30   of Luke's lightsaber right? How can you not know he has a blue lightsaber? It was the

00:28:33   most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.

00:28:35   I suspect they did. And one of you is going to have to correct me on when Pantone actually

00:28:42   came around. Because I just don't think that they could... I don't think they could dye

00:28:47   that plastic that color.

00:28:49   No, because...

00:28:50   Yeah, yellow.

00:28:51   Yeah, because Obi-Wan...

00:28:52   It was just blue.

00:28:53   Yeah, Obi-Wan had a blue lightsaber. Just give him... Just use the same part from Obi-Wan.

00:28:58   Oh yeah, wait. Why was this yellow then?

00:29:00   It was crazy.

00:29:01   Because it wasn't... Because I'm thinking of Jedi and I'm thinking they were trying

00:29:03   to do a green thing, but no.

00:29:05   I mean, it matches his hair. I don't know. I just sent a picture of... Apparently they

00:29:09   did 1995 and 2019. They did reproductions of the original Kenner thing and they faithfully

00:29:14   reproduced the yellow lightsaber with the stupid ship.

00:29:19   Well anyway, it's a long... It's an erratic annual schedule.

00:29:26   Nice recovery.

00:29:28   But we don't cover everything. We can't cover everything. And we happen to skip the rise

00:29:34   of Skywalker. We don't have time. There's no way. We're already... The introduction

00:29:38   has taken us half an hour. There's absolutely no way we can cover it.

00:29:42   Can we say that 1977 Luke Skywalker has a very flaccid looking...

00:29:48   I mean, it was 1977. It was a long time ago. You got to allow for...

00:29:53   It was. It was. That guy went to way too many key parties.

00:29:56   In the immortal words of George Costanza, he was in the pool.

00:29:59   He was in the pool. He was. Sorry, Jon. I don't want to cut you off because we really

00:30:04   should move on. But like 1977 Luke Skywalker has definitely...

00:30:10   You know what? The Obi-Wan character is all kinds of wrong. And that bothered me. I haven't

00:30:14   seen this figure in a long time since I was a kid.

00:30:16   Yeah. That's the one I grew up with and that's just not Obi-Wan.

00:30:20   You could have in line, but you didn't.

00:30:22   He kind of looks like a kid, like a character from Flash Gordon or something.

00:30:26   Yeah. He's wearing some kind of maroon 70s polyester jumpsuit.

00:30:32   It's sort of like with the Obi-Wan character. It's like they found out he was an old man

00:30:36   and kids weren't really going to care. And so somebody who'd never seen the movie just

00:30:40   asked somebody...

00:30:41   Jazzed him up.

00:30:43   Yeah. It was just like second or third hand, what does this Obi-Wan character look like?

00:30:48   And then they made this.

00:30:49   Yeah. They didn't even bother painting his shoes a different color.

00:30:53   You meant the touch of that cape?

00:30:54   His paint color just goes straight down to his...

00:30:56   I don't know if you guys ever touched that cape, but it's plastic.

00:30:58   Oh yeah.

00:30:59   They're all plastic.

00:31:00   Yeah.

00:31:01   Yeah.

00:31:02   All the kind of things have plastic capes.

00:31:03   That's why...

00:31:04   So John, I cut you off to make fun of Flaccid Luke. So sorry, Mark Hamill.

00:31:10   So we are here to talk today about the Ewok adventure, the 1984 TV movie that I've forgotten

00:31:18   even exists. Now, I want to talk about The Mandalorian because I feel like we could cover

00:31:24   that in a reasonable length of time. We can kind of tie it in.

00:31:29   It's adorable.

00:31:30   All right.

00:31:31   We've got a few hours left in 2020. So...

00:31:35   Let me take a break before we even get started. And I will thank our first sponsor. It's our

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00:32:44   technically oriented and if you're not. And as I always like to say, if you're listening

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00:33:28   Big New Year's thing. I'm sure that'll be a push next year. But you can get started

00:33:32   on your New Year's resolutions. Build a new website.

00:33:35   Jon, does Marco ever make you listen to the reads right there during the show? It always

00:33:40   sounds to me like he pops them in after the fact.

00:33:43   Jon Sorrentino He'll never reveal the secrets of our program.

00:33:46   Jon Moffitt Well, don't you let people just listen to it?

00:33:50   Jon Sorrentino Yeah, but if you don't listen live, you don't

00:33:52   know what's happening.

00:33:53   Jon Moffitt Yeah, I love that Goober is just saying you

00:33:54   don't listen live.

00:33:55   Jon Sorrentino No, I stick to Canon.

00:33:56   Jon Moffitt Wow.

00:33:57   Jon Sorrentino You're getting better at this because that's

00:33:58   a good segue.

00:33:59   Jon Moffitt There's multiple Canon versions now because

00:34:04   you've got the member version.

00:34:09   Jon Sorrentino No, that's not Canon.

00:34:10   Jon Moffitt It's very complicated.

00:34:11   Jon Sorrentino No, that's fan.

00:34:12   Jon Moffitt But as you know, Jon, no one pays for podcasts,

00:34:15   so don't worry about it.

00:34:16   Jon Sorrentino That's fan.

00:34:17   Jon Moffitt So what is the Canon version of ATP?

00:34:19   Jon Moffitt They're all Canon.

00:34:21   Jon Moffitt No, they're not.

00:34:23   Jon Sorrentino That's not, that's unlikely.

00:34:25   Jon Moffitt Every week we put out three Canon episodes

00:34:28   every single week.

00:34:31   Jon Moffitt We, over the break, at some point in the last

00:34:37   10 days, we introduced Jonas to the Star Wars holiday special.

00:34:43   This is what I wanted to ask you, Jon, with this birthday of yours.

00:34:47   What is it like to have a birthday so close to life day?

00:34:50   Jon Moffitt That's never come up.

00:34:53   I thankfully avoided ever seeing the Star Wars holiday special despite knowing about

00:34:57   it, despite knowing about its infamy.

00:34:59   I avoided it for almost my entire life until we did it on the incomparable a year or two

00:35:04   ago.

00:35:05   And that was the first time I'd ever seen it and it was terrible.

00:35:08   And then somehow I erased that from my memory and I got sucked back into doing a commentary

00:35:13   track on it.

00:35:14   So I've seen it two times, both times in the form of a podcast.

00:35:18   The first time it really, really bothered me.

00:35:20   The second time I think I was mostly numb to it, but it's no good.

00:35:22   Jon Sorrentino I was really shocked because we're on the

00:35:24   same slack about that.

00:35:26   And when it came up the first time, I'm like, I don't want anything to do with it.

00:35:32   I think I texted you, Jon, and you were like, don't watch it.

00:35:36   I took a bullet for you.

00:35:38   And then not like a year later, you were like, ah, doing a live commentary track.

00:35:43   Jon Sorrentino I was like, what are you doing?

00:35:44   Jon Sorrentino I need two doses to truly be immune.

00:35:48   Jon Sorrentino Yeah, I think so.

00:35:50   Jon Sorrentino I think so.

00:35:51   Jon Sorrentino Yeah.

00:35:52   Jon Sorrentino Jonas is usually pretty keyed in on this.

00:35:53   He's on YouTube all the time and he knows the Star Wars.

00:36:01   And he honestly had sort of vaguely heard about it and wasn't even sure it was real.

00:36:06   Had never seen a moment of it.

00:36:08   We dialed up, you know, somebody's copy of a copy of a VHS tape, best version available

00:36:16   on YouTube.

00:36:17   Jon Sorrentino Did you get the one with commercials in it?

00:36:19   Jon Sorrentino Yes, I believe so.

00:36:20   Jon Sorrentino That's the only good part.

00:36:22   Jon Sorrentino We got the, I had some commercials, we started

00:36:24   watching it and he couldn't believe it.

00:36:27   And I remember when it came out, I was so excited.

00:36:31   I could not believe it.

00:36:32   You know, be a chance for more Star Wars.

00:36:35   And it was going to be free right on TV.

00:36:38   And then the moment it started, I realized I knew exactly what was going on.

00:36:41   This is horrible.

00:36:42   And it just seemed to me, the thing that was the most confusing to me, though, and it gets

00:36:48   to my problem with like the articulation of some of the toys is I could have accepted

00:36:53   more readily if they had also recast all of the parts.

00:36:58   And it was just there was just some other young kid playing quote unquote, Luke Skywalker.

00:37:04   And there was a man in a gorilla suit playing quote Chewbacca.

00:37:09   But it was they were all they got the actors and Chewbacca did look like Chewbacca.

00:37:15   And it was like there was the real R2D2.

00:37:18   And I couldn't understand how this could how these people could play any part in something

00:37:22   that was obviously a complete and utter fraud.

00:37:25   And I don't remember really watching it to completion.

00:37:28   And, and but you know, it scarred me.

00:37:32   It scarred me in a way that because it seemed incomprehensible that there could be any affiliation

00:37:38   with the actual Star Wars, but there clearly was.

00:37:41   And and yet this was a complete, horrible shot on videotape fraud.

00:37:47   So wait, let's save that.

00:37:50   What year did that come out?

00:37:52   1980?

00:37:53   No.

00:37:54   No, it was before Empire.

00:37:56   It was.

00:37:57   Yeah, like 79.

00:37:58   79, I think.

00:37:59   78 or 79.

00:38:02   Yeah.

00:38:03   Man, somebody do that math because I think I think this goes towards this thesis statement

00:38:10   that you sent me earlier, John.

00:38:12   Yeah, well, okay.

00:38:14   1978 Star Wars.

00:38:16   78.

00:38:17   Right.

00:38:18   So what what did Star Wars mean at that time?

00:38:21   Right?

00:38:22   We'd had the one movie where basically a crazy old guy takes a kid and forces him to

00:38:29   engage in something way beyond his pay grade.

00:38:35   And ultimately it works out because magic?

00:38:38   It's, it's a weird story, right?

00:38:41   Like so is Earth Day that far off Star Wars?

00:38:46   Right?

00:38:47   Like not, not we?

00:38:48   Yes, I agree.

00:38:49   I definitely agree with you.

00:38:51   I mean, they made a 70s variety show.

00:38:53   Like we, if you're alive in the 70s, you know what they were doing, and they just shoved

00:38:57   Star Wars into it.

00:38:58   And they literally opened up the CBS Rolodex and just contacted the CBS rotary of, who

00:39:08   do we call?

00:39:09   Well, CBS always calls B. Arthur when, when there's a mod there.

00:39:13   Right.

00:39:14   Yeah.

00:39:15   And if it wouldn't you, I would call B. Arthur.

00:39:16   If I was going to throw in a party, B. Arthur's coming.

00:39:19   Right.

00:39:20   And if it had been on ABC instead of CBS, it would have been a completely different

00:39:25   set of stars.

00:39:26   It would have been like John Ritter from Three's Company would have been in instead of B. Arthur,

00:39:32   you know.

00:39:33   And Harvey Korman.

00:39:34   Harvey Korman, you know.

00:39:35   Or Art Carney.

00:39:36   Right?

00:39:37   That, you know what?

00:39:38   That would have been a great show.

00:39:42   Right.

00:39:43   And if it would have been, if it would have been NBC, they would have got Bob Hope instead

00:39:46   of Art Carney, you know, and you know, all of a sudden Bob Hope is in for 30 seconds.

00:39:51   Bob Hope, Bob Hope doing Yoda would have been good.

00:39:54   Yeah.

00:39:55   And he didn't exist.

00:39:56   It was on Jefferson Starship, put him in there.

00:39:58   Just for the name.

00:40:00   It broke my heart.

00:40:01   Anyway, here's my thesis statement.

00:40:03   My premise for the show.

00:40:04   I ran it by a guy.

00:40:05   I didn't have to run it by John because I feel like you'll grok it immediately.

00:40:09   Hey.

00:40:10   Well, I just wanted to, once you said it was on.

00:40:14   I'm joking.

00:40:15   I'm joking.

00:40:16   Just go.

00:40:17   I forget.

00:40:18   Actually, I didn't write it down, so tell me if I get it right.

00:40:20   But basically.

00:40:21   You did.

00:40:22   You wrote it down to me.

00:40:24   Okay.

00:40:25   Star Wars used to be.

00:40:27   And the Star Wars that infused my vision of what it means was this thing that was extremely

00:40:33   rare, extremely special.

00:40:34   And they were these blockbuster, spectacular, two hour, big budget movies with the greatest

00:40:40   special effects that blew away the second place movies with special effects for this

00:40:45   sort of thing.

00:40:46   We're so far in second place.

00:40:49   It wasn't even worth talking about them.

00:40:52   And that they were like the Olympics.

00:40:53   They only came out every few years.

00:40:55   But at least with the Olympics, you knew there'd be one every four years.

00:41:00   And then when Return of the Jedi was over, there was a question as to whether there would

00:41:04   a serious, serious question as to whether there would ever be any Star Wars again.

00:41:09   And in fact, there wasn't for 16 years except for special editions.

00:41:16   And it was that special.

00:41:19   And then when George Lucas said, we're going to make a new trilogy, the one that was long

00:41:23   rumored is going to be a prequel trilogy.

00:41:25   That's why these movies were episodes four, five and six.

00:41:29   And it was like, this is so special.

00:41:30   This is going to be so great.

00:41:31   This is special.

00:41:33   And now we've got news announcements that there's seven different Star Wars shows.

00:41:41   They make movies.

00:41:43   They can't make movies fast.

00:41:44   They can't make Star Wars movies fast enough.

00:41:47   And my thesis statement is that it was good the old way when we grew up, when they were

00:41:54   extremely special and extremely rare.

00:41:57   But if you're going to go in a different direction and start squeezing them out more and into

00:42:02   an expanded, you know, what do you call it?

00:42:03   Like the Marvel expanded universe and there's the Star Wars expanded universe.

00:42:07   And you're going to just keep making stuff.

00:42:09   It's better to do it like this.

00:42:13   And that's why I'm not that big a fan of the last trilogy of movies.

00:42:17   I really, this, the seven, eight, nine, and the longer I go from them, the less of a fan

00:42:24   I am.

00:42:25   And I feel like doing these TV shows is a better way to do it under Disney stewardship.

00:42:29   That's my thesis statement.

00:42:30   Well, I have to say that the part that you described of when Star Wars was rare and everything,

00:42:37   that's true, but I didn't super enjoy it.

00:42:39   It was a lot of tension.

00:42:41   I could have done with more Star Wars.

00:42:43   Our childhood, at least mine anyway, was defined by wishing that there was more Star Wars.

00:42:48   We saw, you know, A New Hope, Empire, and Return of the Jedi.

00:42:53   And all we did was talk on the playground about the nine movies in the lava pit for

00:42:56   the rest of our adolescence.

00:42:58   And there wasn't any more movies.

00:43:00   And it seemed like we were waiting forever.

00:43:02   And then of course we had the prequels, which were disappointing.

00:43:04   And then we had to wait again, right?

00:43:06   And so I have great affection for The Force Awakens, because I felt like that was the

00:43:12   payoff to a long, painful journey with Star Wars, where I felt like I wasn't getting more

00:43:16   of what I wanted for a very, very long time.

00:43:19   And The Force Awakens was, I think, a very good Star Wars movie that said, yes, there

00:43:24   will exist a new Star Wars thing that you will really like.

00:43:29   And I thought The Last Jedi was okay, not as good as the other one.

00:43:32   And then Rise of Skywalker we didn't talk about, and they kind of dropped the ball.

00:43:35   So I agree that the second trilogy doesn't hold a candle to the first, obviously, but

00:43:40   it's better than the prequels.

00:43:42   But the whole about rarity versus having more stuff, I didn't really like the rarity part.

00:43:47   It's what we got.

00:43:48   It made Absence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder, right?

00:43:51   All that and everything.

00:43:52   That's true.

00:43:53   But I would have preferred a childhood where Star Wars ended up like the MCU.

00:43:57   And the other thing to remember about MCU, speaking of that thing, is the MCU, that's

00:44:01   not the source material.

00:44:02   The comics are the source material.

00:44:04   This is the MCU, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, is derivative material based on properties

00:44:09   developed in comic books.

00:44:12   Star Wars is not like that.

00:44:13   It wasn't developed as a comic book first or whatever.

00:44:16   It was born as a movie.

00:44:18   It is a movie franchise.

00:44:20   So I think it's a little bit different in that you don't have 60 years worth of dozens

00:44:25   of characters from which to pull and let somebody else give their take on Guardians of the Galaxy

00:44:30   or whatever.

00:44:31   That doesn't exist in Star Wars.

00:44:32   It was the EU and it kind of spun out from there and now they can do more picking and

00:44:35   choosing.

00:44:36   But it's just so different that I'm not sure adopting one of the formulas of the existing,

00:44:41   especially things like Cinematic Universe, is the right formula.

00:44:44   I guess I'm agreeing with you that Marvel on TV, I don't know if there's an acronym

00:44:48   for that, but Star Wars on TV seems like a perfectly natural fit for me because now we

00:44:55   do have some canon to pull from and the television format allows you to get what I didn't have

00:45:00   when I was a kid, which is, "Hey, guess what?

00:45:02   More Star Wars."

00:45:03   And when it's a TV show, the stakes are lower.

00:45:06   You make a good TV show, you make a bad TV show, whatever, there'll be another TV show,

00:45:09   it's not a big deal.

00:45:10   Whereas if you have one trilogy of movies every few decades, the pressure is on and

00:45:15   if you end up with a trilogy like the prequels, where it just kind of fizzles and we end up

00:45:19   not liking it, it's like, "Well, I guess I'll see you guys again in another decade

00:45:23   or two."

00:45:24   And that's no fun.

00:45:26   So there were three thoughts there, A, the thought that we didn't get enough is when

00:45:33   we were young and we always wanted more, and ending up on the thought that the television

00:45:45   is a place that we can flesh that out.

00:45:48   And in the middle, there is the notion that Marvel succeeded because it had a lot of room

00:45:54   to play with this stuff and these characters in what has become a safe space.

00:46:01   You can write comics and Spider-Man can turn into a living spider and do all kinds of horrible,

00:46:09   weird and insane stuff.

00:46:11   And you can even get a stinker movie.

00:46:12   You get a Thor 2 or something.

00:46:14   It's not a big deal, right?

00:46:16   Because there were so many more of them.

00:46:19   And in that way, it is the finite expression of Star Wars that sort of makes a difference,

00:46:30   right?

00:46:31   I wanted more Star Wars when I was young, and I'm not sure that giving people what

00:46:40   they want is always the best notion of making the most creative thing.

00:46:48   And I sort of feared that this notion that, you know, when I was young, if they just kept

00:46:53   pumping out Star Wars, I'd feel awesome.

00:46:56   Would it mean the same?

00:46:58   I mean, that's what I said.

00:47:01   It obviously looms large in our memory because there was so little of it and because what

00:47:04   we had was so good.

00:47:06   That's true.

00:47:07   Because we made that up, right?

00:47:08   Like, I don't know about you, but I remember having arguments about, like, could yoga beat

00:47:12   yoga?

00:47:14   Could Yoda beat the Emperor?

00:47:17   And my whole notion was like, Yoda would never fight the Emperor.

00:47:21   It wouldn't happen.

00:47:22   He's beyond.

00:47:24   He's just, he doesn't fight.

00:47:26   He certainly doesn't light up a lightsaber and pinball all over the place.

00:47:30   Like, that's beneath him.

00:47:31   He just doesn't do that.

00:47:33   But part of the reason that prequels are so painful is it was this giant gap and the weight

00:47:37   that was put on them.

00:47:38   And instead, I mean, I was never into the EU, but during that whole time, the expanded

00:47:43   universe was a thing and people were writing novels and like, there was this whole world

00:47:47   spinning out after Return of the Jedi.

00:47:48   It's just that it wasn't a world that I participated in.

00:47:51   So Star Wars did have its moment to like, go in a million different directions.

00:47:56   And the reason I say I wanted more Star Wars, and I mostly mean on, you know, the movie

00:48:00   screen or on television screen, as opposed to books, is because Star Wars as a universe,

00:48:06   as a world, can support, you know, so many different stories.

00:48:11   Like so clearly, it's not like we were going to burn it out.

00:48:13   In the same way that superheroes is such an open ended thing that you can support tons

00:48:16   and tons of heroes.

00:48:18   It didn't need to be weighted so heavily with like this expectation of just there's one

00:48:23   story we can tell.

00:48:24   Like there's, you know, there were so many stories you could tell in the Star Wars universe

00:48:27   and the expanded universe told a lot of them.

00:48:30   But we didn't get to see any of them in movies or on television.

00:48:33   That's what I would like more of, even if some of it was kind of stinky.

00:48:36   I mean, we got the Ewok adventure, we got the Hollywood special, we got that other Ewok

00:48:40   movie, and just wasn't enough.

00:48:43   Yeah.

00:48:44   And even the books were like...

00:48:46   So I read the Thrawn trilogy and then a few others and I'm like, this is just not...

00:48:50   It's just not.

00:48:53   It's just not.

00:48:54   I read the first one and it was like, and I did finish it and it was like, man, this

00:48:58   is bad.

00:48:59   Right.

00:49:00   And I just put it aside.

00:49:01   I mean, if you wanted more Star Wars, this is the only places you were getting it, right?

00:49:03   I know, but do I want Star Wars at the cost of it being bad?

00:49:08   And not that those books about it were...

00:49:11   And now the EU was kicked out of Canada and now it's being mined.

00:49:15   For properties to put back into Canada.

00:49:18   Yeah, I know.

00:49:20   But the providence of where good ideas from is less interesting than like, do I want to

00:49:24   sit through this?

00:49:25   And I did...

00:49:26   I feel like the universe, like the Star Trek universe, like these are worlds that can support

00:49:31   so many different stories.

00:49:33   Like you literally got a whole galaxy.

00:49:35   Like I do 100%.

00:49:36   This is a conversation I had with Matt Drance and Rene Richard.

00:49:41   I forget who else was it.

00:49:42   Maybe Belton.

00:49:43   I don't know.

00:49:45   Never heard of him.

00:49:46   Never heard of him.

00:49:47   Years ago.

00:49:49   When Disney bought the rights to Star Wars, Drance was making the point, they're like,

00:49:57   you know what?

00:49:58   Star Wars is a big world.

00:49:59   And my initial reaction was like, you know what?

00:50:03   Star Wars exists to tell the story of Luke Skywalker in those three movies.

00:50:08   It's got a beginning and an arc and an end, and we should leave it at that.

00:50:12   I believe, I completely agree that the universe is an exciting and an enticing premise.

00:50:21   And there's a lot there.

00:50:23   But it exists to tell the stories and it can't be a coherent whole without those stories

00:50:29   holding it together.

00:50:32   I would compare it to...

00:50:33   Given that, where do we feel, given the way the Mandalorian has gone?

00:50:37   Well, here's my comparison, is to George Lucas's good personal friend Francis Ford Coppola

00:50:43   with the Godfather movies.

00:50:46   And obviously, let's just face it, I think I bring it up every time we do one of these

00:50:50   Star Wars spectaculars.

00:50:51   These are kids movies.

00:50:54   And a lot of this grown men arguing about Star Wars stuff, often you can pop a bubble

00:51:00   by just saying, remember, these are for kids.

00:51:02   And there's a reason we do this around Christmas and they come out around Christmas.

00:51:06   It is a Christmas present to all of us.

00:51:10   The original trilogy was for everybody, as Wave would say of Pixar movies.

00:51:14   They're not for kids.

00:51:15   They're for everybody.

00:51:16   But that's part of what made the original Star Wars movie.

00:51:23   So honestly, I don't know how else to say it other than a sort of religious experience

00:51:29   for me and my friends growing up.

00:51:32   And we talked about it the way that people of generations past would talk about their

00:51:37   actual religion.

00:51:39   But the thing that made it so fantastic to me was that it was obviously made so seriously.

00:51:46   The story wasn't serious.

00:51:48   The dialogue famously, as Harrison Ford said to George Lucas, George, you can't say this

00:51:55   shit.

00:51:56   I love that guy.

00:51:57   I'd be so close, old man.

00:52:01   But the production value.

00:52:02   You can't write this shit.

00:52:03   You can't say it.

00:52:04   You can write it.

00:52:05   Getting closer, getting warmer.

00:52:06   What was it?

00:52:07   All right, correct.

00:52:08   George, you can write this shit, but you can't say it.

00:52:09   That's my guess as the third old man.

00:52:11   All right.

00:52:12   That sounds right.

00:52:13   And it also, that sounds better.

00:52:16   So we'll let that stand.

00:52:17   But so much work went into it and it was so palpable, right?

00:52:22   The famous opening shot right away, just boom.

00:52:26   Seriously, maybe, arguably the best opening shot of any movie ever made.

00:52:32   And it just immediately emphasized this is going to look real.

00:52:36   This looks like a massive kilometers long starship chasing a little guy.

00:52:43   And you could just tell by the architecture of the ships, even though they didn't really

00:52:47   cheat, who was the good guy, who was the bad guy.

00:52:53   Just the amount of design, right?

00:52:55   And maybe if there's anything I've been obsessed with my entire life, it's design.

00:53:00   Like the amount of design that went into this movie for kids.

00:53:04   Whereas almost all this stuff that was made for kids when I grew up was clearly garbage.

00:53:10   Just like, "Blah, this is terrible."

00:53:12   Like even Disney started making animated movies where they just cheaped out on the frame rate

00:53:18   and the style.

00:53:20   And it's like 101 Dalmatians and some of those movies of that era, they weren't even well

00:53:26   animated.

00:53:27   It was like, "Ah, it's just for kids.

00:53:29   Why spend all the money to do it right?"

00:53:32   Star Wars had this attitude that kids deserve the highest possible production values and

00:53:39   special effects and articulation of the models and just developing this whole world.

00:53:47   I appreciated that so much.

00:53:49   The Godfather sort of had that for gangster movies.

00:53:51   Here's this whole world that was brought.

00:53:54   It was so visceral.

00:53:55   People still talk about it to this day.

00:53:57   Like if in some alternate universe, George Lucas had just locked the box after 1983 and

00:54:05   there had never been another Star Wars movie or TV show and he still just had the rights

00:54:11   the way that Coppola has to the Godfather.

00:54:14   We would still be talking.

00:54:15   We wouldn't be having the Star Wars Holiday Spectacular right now every year, but we would

00:54:19   still talk about those three Star Wars movies the way people talk about the Godfather movies.

00:54:25   And it would still be a thing.

00:54:26   And that's sort of what I wanted.

00:54:28   As a young kid, I certainly wasn't allowed.

00:54:32   I wasn't allowed and I had no interest in watching the Godfather movies at that age.

00:54:38   But I treated the Star Wars movies that way.

00:54:42   And even as a ten-year-old sort of had feelings about the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi that

00:54:48   are sort of like people's comments on the Godfather Part 3, which is now.

00:54:54   And again, we could do a whole show on the similarities.

00:54:57   The way that Coppola keeps going back to the Godfather movies, the way Lucas couldn't keep

00:55:00   his goddamn hands off the Star Wars movies.

00:55:03   Well, here's where they diverged though.

00:55:06   You mentioned the gangster movies.

00:55:07   Organized crime movies and gangster movies obviously existed before the Godfather.

00:55:10   The Godfather put a stake in the ground and said, "No, no, this is how you do this."

00:55:15   But the universe, like the universe of Italian-American organized crime was not a universe created

00:55:20   by Francis Ford Coppola.

00:55:21   It was like a real world thing, right?

00:55:23   So if he'd just lock the box on the Godfather trilogy, he can't contain the universe because

00:55:30   organized crime is a thing.

00:55:31   And here's what we got.

00:55:33   Because that's not his box to lock up, he's got those characters in that story, but the

00:55:36   setting continues to exist.

00:55:38   Then you get Goodfellas, which is kind of like saying, "Well, Star Wars was locked up,

00:55:43   but the Star Wars universe is available for someone else to pick up the ball and say,

00:55:47   'I can make a gangster movie.

00:55:49   I can make a Star Wars movie.'"

00:55:51   And then they make Goodfellas.

00:55:52   And Goodfellas is amazing, and I would not want to live in a world without it.

00:55:55   And I feel like not allowing other people to make things in the Star Wars universe would

00:55:59   be like not allowing anyone to make any more gangster movies after the Godfather Part II.

00:56:04   I think that last is a jump.

00:56:09   I do.

00:56:11   I'm not sure I disagree with you, but I'm not sure that I can totally get on board with

00:56:17   that either.

00:56:18   Yeah, because where do you put all the Battlestar Galacticas and the...

00:56:20   Right.

00:56:21   I love Battlestar Galactica.

00:56:22   Yeah, me too.

00:56:23   But it wasn't in the Star Wars universe.

00:56:25   No, but I mean, it exists because it was pushed out of the Star Wars universe, right?

00:56:30   And I don't know if you noticed, but the Mandalorian has a bunch of Cylons coming and picking up

00:56:35   baby users.

00:56:36   Those aren't Cylons, come on.

00:56:37   Oh, come on.

00:56:38   Those are from Dark Forces.

00:56:39   We'll get there.

00:56:40   We're only an hour in, okay?

00:56:43   Come on.

00:56:45   But I agree and I disagree.

00:56:48   I kind of see it where Star Wars carved out this weird genre that wasn't just space opera

00:56:55   shoot them up with laser guns and spaceships, but it was a very specific version of it, right?

00:57:02   Like with lightsabers.

00:57:03   Yeah, and they made a universe.

00:57:04   The Star Wars universe is distinct from the Buck Rogers universe or the Battlestar Galactica

00:57:09   universe, even though they both look like they're space and have ILM spaceships.

00:57:12   Because it's this weird meld of space opera that is a lot like on the surface, and if

00:57:19   you don't really pay attention, it is a lot like Battlestar Galactica or any of these

00:57:23   other things.

00:57:24   It's the same ILM people made this ships and biles like rock thing.

00:57:27   That's why it looks so similar.

00:57:28   So wait, specifically the Galactica thing I meant is the dark troopers look like Cylons.

00:57:34   Yeah, I know.

00:57:35   I know.

00:57:36   I know.

00:57:37   I know.

00:57:38   I just want to delineate that for people who may think that I'm painting with a very

00:57:43   broad brush.

00:57:44   Now that we're talking about the Godfather and Star Wars, it occurs to me like, you know,

00:57:47   the thing we always talk about with Star Wars, you know, what defines the Star Wars universe?

00:57:50   It was like the dirty used future, right?

00:57:53   Yeah.

00:57:54   And you know, the first Star Wars movie came out in the 70s.

00:57:58   Everything on screen in the 70s was dirty.

00:58:00   It was like dirty New York City.

00:58:03   Like the Godfather, Taxi Driver.

00:58:07   Just like the Hulk.

00:58:08   But I think that's the brilliance of it, right?

00:58:10   It was like time, but it was a space movie with film grain and dirt from the 70s.

00:58:15   No, because it's not an affectation.

00:58:19   It's not.

00:58:20   It was authentically.

00:58:21   It came by it honestly.

00:58:22   Exactly.

00:58:23   It came by it honestly.

00:58:25   He's hanging out with a bunch of really nitty-gritty film people who did a lot of really nitty-gritty

00:58:31   stuff.

00:58:32   But he's also the guy who made American Graffiti, so it ends up being that dirty 70s, but with

00:58:36   a plucky space hero blonde porn boy from Tatooine.

00:58:40   But there's the insight.

00:58:41   That's what we should be celebrating.

00:58:42   It's like, well, what if I take the future and do it the same way?

00:58:47   What if I treat the future as human and humanely as I treat the current?

00:58:54   And what if I talk about the future Nazis as an analog?

00:58:59   Why don't I do the classic sci-fi thing, which is talk about something that's horrific and

00:59:04   horrible and despicable and project them in a light that is apropos for the time and maybe

00:59:11   a little bit advanced in that I'm going to couch them in laser beams?

00:59:16   And that is the value of...

00:59:20   That's why THX 1138 was a nice draft and Star Wars worked.

00:59:28   And I think it worked because it played on that same notion and it dragged the future

00:59:33   down to Earth.

00:59:35   And it made sci-fi a thing that felt real.

00:59:42   You could reach out and touch a droid.

00:59:44   You could touch O2D2.

00:59:46   You could touch certainly the Millennium Falcon.

00:59:50   Chewbacca was your pet dog.

00:59:52   You could do this.

00:59:54   And yet it was divorced enough from reality to help land the narrative, the points, the

01:00:07   perspective that it wanted to convey.

01:00:08   Now sure, Nazis are bad.

01:00:12   I hope everybody got that from Star Wars.

01:00:14   I'm not sure they did.

01:00:15   Based on the internet, apparently not everybody.

01:00:17   Right, yeah.

01:00:18   I know.

01:00:19   But I mean, that was the point, right?

01:00:21   And I liked it and I admire it.

01:00:23   And I think that's why it is so... it still sticks with us so much, like that lived-in

01:00:30   universe.

01:00:32   Lived-in is a word that means that we can inhabit it.

01:00:36   I think basically...

01:00:39   I'm convinced.

01:00:40   The more we talk about it, I'm convinced that there were only two right ways to handle this.

01:00:45   One would have been that there was...

01:00:47   The good way and the wrong way.

01:00:48   That's gonna work out right, man.

01:00:50   If anything Star Wars has taught us, there's light and bad and everything else.

01:00:54   For Lucas to have made one trilogy, Star Wars, Empire, Return of the Jedi, I thought it was

01:01:02   so awesome.

01:01:03   It was so freaking great as a kid when they renumbered them and Empire, instead of being

01:01:08   Star Wars 2, was Episode 5.

01:01:11   And it just hinted at this greater story.

01:01:13   But what if he'd never gone back?

01:01:15   In some ways, there's an ineffable awesomeness to the fact that if the only three Star Wars

01:01:24   pieces that ever existed were Episodes 4, 5, and 6, and that was it.

01:01:30   Or if you're going to start making more, I think the way that Disney is handling it now

01:01:37   is the way to do it, and to give people enough Star Wars so that if a truly bad movie comes

01:01:45   out like Solo.

01:01:46   Would you guys watch that?

01:01:49   I would not call Solo a truly bad movie.

01:01:51   We differ there very strongly.

01:01:53   Okay.

01:01:54   Well, I thought it was horrible.

01:01:55   I thought it was...

01:01:56   I'm in the middle.

01:01:57   Did you see The Rise of Skywalker?

01:01:58   Come on.

01:01:59   Ooh, I...

01:02:00   Okay.

01:02:01   I think Solo's...

01:02:02   I think The Rise of Skywalker versus Solo.

01:02:05   Which one is better?

01:02:06   Solo.

01:02:07   Solo.

01:02:08   I would rather watch The Rise of Skywalker again.

01:02:09   Oh my goodness.

01:02:10   You need to watch Solo again.

01:02:11   I think your memory is warped.

01:02:13   I remain a big fan of The Last Jedi.

01:02:17   If anything, I've grown more fond of it over the years.

01:02:20   Well, here's my problem with these things, and to compare them with the Marvel Cinematic

01:02:25   Universe.

01:02:26   My least favorite Marvel movies, and I think that the whole Marvel thing has been great.

01:02:30   I love these movies.

01:02:33   Even the ones that I'm not the biggest... that I don't love the most, I still enjoy watching

01:02:38   them all.

01:02:39   I love the way they string together.

01:02:41   The ones that I like the least are the Avenger movies, and especially the last few with the

01:02:46   big guy with the magic rings.

01:02:48   Endgame, Infinite One, the guy with the big...

01:02:51   That's awesome, man.

01:02:52   It's Thanos.

01:02:53   Because it's like they're trying to make this thing that's even bigger than a two-hour blockbuster

01:02:59   movie, right?

01:03:00   Making this... what's even bigger than just regular old Captain America, like the first

01:03:08   Captain America movie, which was a swell movie and just not my favorite.

01:03:13   I like the Iron Man movies better.

01:03:15   The Iron Man ones were my sweet spot.

01:03:18   But Captain America was never my favorite hero either, but they played him straight.

01:03:23   They did a good job.

01:03:24   But they tell a story, and it's sort of a movie the way you think of a movie, whereas

01:03:28   the Avenger ones are... and I know this gets tossed about a lot, like the Scorsese line

01:03:35   about all of these movies, about them, that they're like theme park attractions or something.

01:03:40   But the Avenger movies, like the Endgame ones, they really are like two-and-a-half-hour nonstop

01:03:47   roller coaster rides, where it's just this nonstop blur, and there's so many... you know,

01:03:54   even... you could say, "Well, wow, two-and-a-half hours is a long time for a movie or a long

01:03:58   time for a podcast."

01:03:59   But it's like they were trying to cram in what easily seemed like it could be like a

01:04:05   season of 12-hour-long episodes of a show into two hours, right?

01:04:13   And like at a pace that makes it feel like a two-and-a-half-hour trailer for something

01:04:19   even bigger, where you get to fill in all these gaps.

01:04:22   And then inevitably, everybody's... there's 40 different people punching each other all

01:04:28   at the same time, and that's it.

01:04:30   And it's like that's just... there's only so much of that I can take.

01:04:34   And to me, the Rise of Skywalker had a feel of that, where it's just... they're just mashing

01:04:42   things together, and all of a sudden they're here, and all of a sudden they're there, and

01:04:46   all of a sudden the Emperor's back, and there you are.

01:04:51   If you want a simple story with a clear character and arc and a series of events that culminates

01:04:58   in a satisfying way, you should check out Solo.

01:05:00   Ah, no, terrible.

01:05:01   Okay, okay, let's just let Solo go.

01:05:04   Let's let it go.

01:05:06   We didn't convene to discuss that.

01:05:09   Interestingly, I, in a way, think you're right.

01:05:15   Stelt was fighting with the MCU, in terms of the grandiose-ness.

01:05:25   I think the original plan was very different from the MCU, but that's the plan that they

01:05:29   abandoned.

01:05:30   The original plan of, "We're going to have a trilogy with standalone movies in between,"

01:05:34   that's nothing like the MCU.

01:05:36   The MCU was, "We're going to have 12 movies, and they're all going to be loosely connected,

01:05:40   and they're going to be all over the map, and then we're going to have sequels to some

01:05:43   of the movies within those 12, and those are connected more tightly."

01:05:45   That's totally different.

01:05:47   Star Wars is like, "Look, we're the trilogy company.

01:05:48   We do trilogy.

01:05:49   We did one good trilogy, we did a crappy trilogy, we're going to try to do another good one,

01:05:52   and we'll have these standalones in between."

01:05:54   And I feel like they just kind of lost their nerve.

01:05:57   Solo's incredible failure in the market scared the hell out of them, and everyone just ran

01:06:01   for the hills.

01:06:02   And now the new strategy is, "We could try doing TV shows," which I think the previous

01:06:07   strategy could have worked.

01:06:09   It would be like Marvel giving up after Thor 2 and saying, "We've got to scrap this whole

01:06:12   plan.

01:06:13   There's no way we're going to make 12 movies that culminated in a big Avengers movie.

01:06:16   That's just not going to happen.

01:06:17   Give up on it."

01:06:18   So I think Disney lost its nerve.

01:06:20   But fine, whatever.

01:06:21   They scrapped that plan, and they're on to a new plan, which is umpteen TV shows.

01:06:24   And I'm hoping this will keep the scaredy-cats from bailing, because it's like, "Ah, you

01:06:28   make a bad TV show, you make a bad episode of a TV show."

01:06:31   You keep trying.

01:06:32   It's lower stakes.

01:06:33   We've got the streaming service.

01:06:34   They cost less money.

01:06:36   You can have a satisfying conclusion to an eight-episode series.

01:06:42   It's easier than, like John just said, to try to cram the culmination of 12 other movies

01:06:48   into a single movie.

01:06:49   You can have a 12-episode season and have a satisfying season finale.

01:06:54   And then you can have a season after that.

01:06:57   TV takes the pressure off and gives you more room to breathe and relax.

01:07:01   Now, if Mandalorian had turned out to be a dud in the market, what are they going to

01:07:05   do?

01:07:06   Scrap that plan and come up with another one?

01:07:07   I feel like they need to get a little backbone at Disney and figure out what they can do

01:07:10   with this very valuable property.

01:07:12   Yeah, except they hit the end of the park with Mandalorian.

01:07:17   And to John's point, maybe, since he's a bit of a degenerate gambler—

01:07:25   I don't gamble.

01:07:27   Big—yeah, I'm sorry.

01:07:29   Sorry.

01:07:30   I invest in sports projections.

01:07:34   I'm sorry.

01:07:35   I've been right next to you when you didn't gamble.

01:07:40   Disney is moving, and it feels like if Disney is on the balls of their feet playing volleyball

01:07:53   or winter ale and tennis, for the sake of Syracuse, they're ready to move quickly.

01:07:59   Have they switched to TV rather than movies?

01:08:05   And if so, are they making smaller bets rather than just trying to smash it into the ground

01:08:13   and score some easy points?

01:08:15   Are they understanding that, "Okay, we've got to play in a media environment that maybe

01:08:21   we didn't plan before because we were Star Wars, and now we're going to have to do these

01:08:24   shows that are frankly as good as Game of Thrones, I think, at least in terms of getting

01:08:31   attention and production quality?"

01:08:35   Is that the plan?

01:08:36   But slightly more kid-friendly.

01:08:37   I mean, but they're still making movies.

01:08:39   Oh, slightly more?

01:08:40   Slightly more?

01:08:41   Do you know what?

01:08:43   I didn't watch Game of Thrones for the first year and a half because the very first episode

01:08:47   saw a child thrown out of a window, incest, prostitutes having sex in a barn.

01:08:59   It was not good.

01:09:00   It was like, "Hey, how much HBO can we stick into one hour?

01:09:05   We've got all of the HBO."

01:09:06   And I felt insulted by it.

01:09:08   I'm like, "Look, I don't know."

01:09:09   On the Thrones credit, they didn't just put that in the first episode to get people into

01:09:13   the series.

01:09:14   It was there the whole time.

01:09:15   I know.

01:09:16   They kept rolling with it.

01:09:17   And I went back, like our friend Chris Parrish was like, "No, you've just got to stick to

01:09:21   it."

01:09:22   And I did, and it was better.

01:09:24   But I still never got over that.

01:09:26   Like, "Okay, look, you're definitely trying to HBO the crap out of me."

01:09:30   But is The Mandalorian--I don't even know.

01:09:36   They're definitely not trying to HBO the crap out of you.

01:09:39   They're defining what Disney+ is, and I like it so far.

01:09:44   Is that a pivot?

01:09:47   Is that an abdication of like, "Look, we can't make it on the big screen in trilogies anymore

01:09:52   because that world has passed"?

01:09:54   No, I think they're just rebooting the movie thing.

01:09:57   But they're taking a long break to rethink the movie thing.

01:10:00   And in the meantime, you can't let the stuff just sit there.

01:10:03   Which is the benefit of not having it owned by one person who's going to get burned out

01:10:06   and has to have a good thing for 16 years, right?

01:10:08   It's a whole company there.

01:10:10   Plenty of creative people who are willing to do stuff in this area.

01:10:12   So while the movie stuff is on hiatus and being sorted out--because how many different

01:10:18   movie rumors have we heard?

01:10:19   Speaking of Game of Thrones, the Game of Thrones guys were going to do a trilogy, someone else

01:10:22   was going to get a trilogy, Ryan Johnson was going to get a trilogy, and like, who knows

01:10:25   what's happening now?

01:10:26   The movie stuff is like, we're rethinking it.

01:10:28   But in the meantime, here's a bunch of TV series, some of which are properties that

01:10:33   were previously rumored to be movies.

01:10:36   And we can do the TV stuff now, because it's lower stakes.

01:10:40   It's cheaper, you can put them out incrementally, it's a good fit for our current COVID times

01:10:45   rather than movies.

01:10:46   And so this is all--it's a strategy shift.

01:10:49   And like I said, I don't think they should have bailed on the movie one, they just did

01:10:53   it badly, but you shouldn't just give up after one mistake.

01:10:56   But it turned out to be advantageous, because Marvel having a bunch of movies in the can

01:11:01   is really not helping them right now.

01:11:02   Like that Black Widow movie was done like a year ago, and they're still just holding

01:11:05   on to it, right?

01:11:06   So, they might have kind of lucked out.

01:11:07   Yeah, I'd feel bad for Scarlett Johansson if she wasn't Scarlett Johansson.

01:11:12   Like not that she's wrong in any way, but it's like, come on, she's fine.

01:11:15   It's not a big deal.

01:11:17   But yeah, that's been in the bank for like, what, a year and a half?

01:11:20   Like it feels like a long time.

01:11:22   It's a good thing that we know people who worked really hard to get that thing finished

01:11:25   on time.

01:11:26   Yeah.

01:11:27   Yeah.

01:11:28   You don't know.

01:11:29   Hello.

01:11:30   I like it, and I feel like one of the things that The Mandalorian is helping to sort of

01:11:37   define is, what does it mean to be a show?

01:11:41   You know, and I forget what Kottke has called them, but you know, like super movies or mega

01:11:48   movies or something like that.

01:11:50   But to consider a show like The Sopranos, you can't say that it's less of an artistic achievement

01:12:00   or has lower artistic goals than a motion picture.

01:12:06   It's of that quality, and there's so many shows that have come out in the years since

01:12:10   that are similar.

01:12:12   And if anything, are more adult story driven, more like the character development and plot

01:12:21   development of something meant for adults as opposed to motion pictures, theatrical

01:12:28   motion pictures, which have really, but they have.

01:12:31   They've moved more towards a theme park style attraction level of, and it's partly the international

01:12:38   market that you can't have.

01:12:40   It depends on the movie.

01:12:41   You're getting to my thesis statement, though.

01:12:44   I came into this with a thesis statement about The Mandalorian, and you just came very close

01:12:48   to it.

01:12:49   So my statement, because I thought, silly me, I thought we were going to talk about

01:12:52   season two with The Mandalorian in mind.

01:12:56   We'll probably talk about season two.

01:12:57   Let me have something to say about season one.

01:12:58   Here's my thought on that, right?

01:13:02   Television — Jon just talked about it — television in recent years, like there is a dividing

01:13:07   line where the start of what we call prestige TV, Sopranos, those type of HBO shows that

01:13:12   were more sophisticated, more ambitious and artful than TV had been before.

01:13:19   We all know, it has all sorts of different names that we can, whether it was Sopranos

01:13:23   in your mind about that.

01:13:24   Golden Age of TV, Sopranos, The Wire, past 10, 15, 20 years.

01:13:28   Things you couldn't do on network television weren't as formulaic, were more sophisticated,

01:13:34   more adult views of human interactions, where characters did things and had emotions that

01:13:39   were not explicable at the most elementary level, where it's like, well, there's

01:13:45   a good guy and a bad guy, and he's mean, he's angry, and he's sad.

01:13:47   It's way more complicated than that.

01:13:49   I go back to The Sopranos because it's such a great example.

01:13:52   If you look at the — I mean, obviously there are cartoonish characters in The Sopranos,

01:13:55   but the main characters and their actions and emotions and situation is way more complicated

01:14:01   than a first level, a second level, a third level text, subtext is just much more sophisticated,

01:14:07   right?

01:14:08   So that is the big turn that television has taken in our lifetime.

01:14:13   Into that, we drop — now we're going to do Star Wars on TV.

01:14:17   One way they could have gone with Star Wars on TV is, let's make a sophisticated adult

01:14:25   version of Star Wars.

01:14:27   In some respects, the movies are like that.

01:14:28   I go back to The Force Awakens, which is a straightforward Star Wars story that hits

01:14:32   all the beats that you would expect, but it takes itself seriously and it tries to do

01:14:35   serious stuff in a way that you would expect from a movie, right?

01:14:40   But television, pre-the-golden age of TV, pre-Sopranos, pre-Prestige TV, didn't do

01:14:46   that.

01:14:47   If you had Star Wars on television, it's the Ewok adventure, which is less sophisticated

01:14:50   than the original trilogy.

01:14:52   It's simpler, it's sillier, it's more pat, it's for television, right?

01:14:57   But when they came to television with season one of The Mandalorian, I think they did something

01:15:02   interesting, which is they didn't make Star Wars on TV so it looks like Game of Thrones

01:15:07   or The Sopranos or Breaking Bad or any of that modern prestige TV.

01:15:14   What they did was they made a television show that held onto the — I don't know, not

01:15:22   the innocence, not the simplicity — they made a television show that had — this is

01:15:29   going to sound bad, it's not like I'm a trash can show, but I'm not — that was less sophisticated

01:15:34   than the adult fancy television shows on prestige TV.

01:15:38   It was structured more like a Western with a single silent character episode with not

01:15:42   a lot of dialogue, a very simple story, fairly straightforward motivation, hints at lore,

01:15:48   a slow pace, it wasn't a million characters, it wasn't like you couldn't figure out what

01:15:53   was motivating anybody, there was no deep angst or anguish that was constantly on screen,

01:15:59   everything was subtle, calm, simple, understandable, parsable, and in a way that I think, subconsciously

01:16:09   or not, made people feel comfortable with the show.

01:16:13   I mean, it was a show of its time and it was good for its time, as in, we wanted more Star

01:16:18   Wars, we didn't need it to be like the Avengers, we also didn't want it to be like Game of

01:16:23   Thrones or Breaking Bad or The Sopranos, we were ready — it was the right show at the

01:16:29   right time — we were ready for Star Wars, it looks familiar, but it's not going to overwhelm

01:16:34   you with 5,000 characters and tons of lore and a bunch of darkness and terrible gore

01:16:41   and violence and just — it was a breath of fresh air.

01:16:46   And I think they found — it depends on what you like, if you want something that's much

01:16:51   more sophisticated, The Mandalorian isn't it, The Mandalorian I think is as simple and

01:16:56   straightforward as the original Star Wars, it's less sophisticated than Empire Strikes

01:17:00   Back, right?

01:17:01   Oh, definitely.

01:17:02   So, I —

01:17:03   Anyway, that was my thesis, and I feel like season two is a good contrast to season one,

01:17:08   but I think that decision for this specific show — doesn't mean that's the whole TV

01:17:12   strategy — but that decision for this specific show was very smart and I think is part of

01:17:18   the reason The Mandalorian has had such a positive reaction.

01:17:21   I agree almost entirely, and I agree, I think, more than you suspect, because I think you

01:17:29   struggle with the word "sophistication" and you see it as being an antonym for simplicity,

01:17:36   and I don't think it is, I think The Mandalorian is a sophisticated show and it is expressed

01:17:43   through its simplicity.

01:17:45   But it's not sophisticated in terms of, like, adult character motivations.

01:17:50   Adult themes and emotions in relationship, I mean, it's the thinking of an apple angle

01:17:54   here that simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, right?

01:17:57   Right, sure.

01:17:58   No, I'm not trying to — I'm not sitting in an all-white room here, but what I'm

01:18:02   suggesting is that you get the sense when watching The Mandalorian that they have considered

01:18:12   that and they have rejected it, rather than, "Hey, we're just doing a dumb show."

01:18:17   And the thing they did do —

01:18:19   And it's considered simplicity, rather than one that's just born out of, like, "Well,

01:18:26   we don't know how to do anything else."

01:18:28   Especially in season one, because in season one it's such a clear homage to the lone

01:18:33   silent gunman in a Western-type environment, which is itself a fairly sophisticated form.

01:18:39   It just strikes us in this modern era, like, really?

01:18:42   You're going to have, like, the first three episodes, the guy's going to have, like,

01:18:44   seven lines?

01:18:45   Like, is this the show?

01:18:47   And it's so shocking compared to, like, the television shows that are trying to be

01:18:51   The Avengers writ small, where it's got to be tons of characters in action, and, you

01:18:55   know, like, just think of all the superhero shows on TV, right?

01:18:58   I just watched Wonder Woman '84 twice in 24 hours.

01:19:02   I'm sorry.

01:19:03   Oh my God.

01:19:04   Well, I had to — well, I didn't have to.

01:19:06   I got to talk to Don Morin and John Moles about it today.

01:19:10   I'd rather watch the Star Wars.

01:19:12   I swear to God, I swear to God, 20/20 is the year of Pedro Pascal being a dad, and

01:19:18   it's weird.

01:19:19   He's good and bad, turns out.

01:19:23   The sophistication of The Mandalorian is that it appreciates the sophistication of everything

01:19:30   that's gone before it, and it adopts that the same way that Star Wars Episode IV adopted

01:19:39   the basics.

01:19:40   This was the '70s.

01:19:42   All of his contemporaries were doing really pretty deep work, and Lucas went off and made

01:19:49   a crazy space-carbo movie, and it worked.

01:19:53   And I think that's a little bit of the essence that's been brought forward into The Mandalorian

01:19:59   is that I don't think you can riff on things without knowing where you're coming from,

01:20:06   right?

01:20:07   That's the story of Zoltus of the Hills.

01:20:09   I do think that Mandalorian, especially season one, knew exactly what it was doing, and I

01:20:15   think season two has grown and is building towards something else.

01:20:19   Let me take a break.

01:20:20   We have one more sponsor, and it can coincide with the first spoiler break.

01:20:26   And we'll just say, after we come back from the sponsor break, there will almost certainly

01:20:31   be—I plan to spoil lots of stuff for The Mandalorian.

01:20:36   So up until now, I think somebody who is only Mandalorian-curious could have listened to

01:20:40   us, and perhaps we've given them a taste.

01:20:43   After this break, spoiler's free, and there's no need for any of us to preface them.

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01:22:27   I don't think that the first episode, I went back and watched it again.

01:22:31   They couldn't more, I don't know what they could have done in the first episode of The

01:22:35   Mandalorian to more dramatically say this is Western inspired than if they had put a

01:22:42   cowboy hat on top of The Mandalorian.

01:22:45   They needed one of those squid face guys.

01:22:49   The first scene is a lone gunslinger coming into a saloon, or I guess in the Star Wars

01:22:56   universe we call them cantines, cantinas.

01:23:00   He jangles as he walks like he has spurs.

01:23:05   It could not be more Western.

01:23:07   But part of what makes a Western a Western isn't that it takes place in the US West.

01:23:12   It's about the pace and letting things breathe.

01:23:17   And that to me is what's missing in the modern blockbuster movie.

01:23:20   And what makes The Mandalorian to me so delightful is that you could just have extended sequences

01:23:27   in a cockpit of a janky spaceship and instead of just cutting to, okay cut to where they're

01:23:34   flying to, just have a whole scene in the cockpit where characters talk and stuff happens

01:23:40   and you learn things and people say things and you breathe the moment.

01:23:45   Like you said about the first Star Wars, what a weird movie the first Star Wars is.

01:23:49   There's like a five, ten minute stretch where you just follow a trash can robot going around

01:23:54   the desert while weird little people in robes with red eyes try to steal them.

01:24:02   It's a very strangely paced movie that worked.

01:24:06   And The Mandalorian, it's not strangely paced, but it breathes.

01:24:11   And the other thing is it's, to put it in computer terms, it's single threaded, right?

01:24:19   And so one of the Star Wars-isms, the famous wipes that go between, oh this group's over

01:24:25   on Dagobah and this group of characters is on Bespin and we wipe as we cut between them.

01:24:31   It's single threaded.

01:24:32   You don't have to worry about that.

01:24:34   It's just here's The Mandalorian and while he's going after him, that's it.

01:24:40   One of the great tropes of a Star Wars movie is probably from Jedi, where it's the triple

01:24:48   assault, right?

01:24:49   Like, you've got land, space, and a Jedi trying to chop somebody up.

01:24:58   And well, that's basically it.

01:25:04   I think the best execution of that was honestly Rogue One.

01:25:08   I loved that space and ground combat was brilliant.

01:25:14   And The Mandalorian keeps it so tight.

01:25:20   When he's fighting one AT-ST, that's bananas.

01:25:25   It is mind-blowing.

01:25:26   Like, oh my god, this thing is just going to murder everybody.

01:25:29   It's a crazy thing.

01:25:30   There's a village here, basically unarmed people, and this is a tank.

01:25:34   How do we take out the tank?

01:25:36   That is the kind of stakes that I really appreciate from this show.

01:25:41   I really, really do love it.

01:25:44   Season One, I think, was amazing.

01:25:49   In some ways, I fear, and Suki said, I don't know how you feel about this, it felt like

01:25:55   a training series of levels for a video game that we're now just starting to play in Season

01:26:03   Two, where now you've got dark troopers and now you've leveled up a little bit.

01:26:08   Well, now you've got more money.

01:26:09   I mean...

01:26:10   You've got more money, you've got a jetpack, you've got stuff to play with.

01:26:14   Because The Mandalorian, this is the first go.

01:26:17   Is this going to work, are people going to like it, or is it going to land like Solo

01:26:20   did?

01:26:21   So you don't put all the money into it, you do the best you can, you do things on the

01:26:24   cheap if you can with the big volume.

01:26:26   Save money where you can, indulge the people who want to make actual physical models, because

01:26:32   whatever.

01:26:33   But in general, I'm not saying that that's why it was a simple story, it's clear that

01:26:37   they wanted to do what they did, but it's also clear that money was tight enough that

01:26:42   it had to be won at ST, because you couldn't have an army of them, right?

01:26:45   And Season Two, we've got a hit on our hands.

01:26:48   It's not like they really changed that, it was still single-threaded, each episode The

01:26:51   Mandalorian goes to a place, meets some people, does some things, it's not like there's suddenly

01:26:55   a hundred people in flight at the same time and armies clashing, and so it's still a very

01:27:00   personal and private story.

01:27:02   But in Season Two you can see, oh, there's a lot more ships.

01:27:05   Oh, they can have more than one action episode, right?

01:27:09   The action episodes, or the scenes of action within the episodes, became more populous

01:27:14   and frankly, better.

01:27:15   So in Season One you had him hanging off the side of the sandcrawler and everything, right?

01:27:20   In Season Two you had legit space battles, you had space ice spiders, you had assaults

01:27:27   on bases with all sorts of things.

01:27:29   Well, Asua Kitano, you would not have done that in Season One because I don't think you

01:27:33   had the knowledge, the institutional knowledge to pull that off well.

01:27:40   You need to know how the volume works, you need to know how everything works, you need

01:27:44   to know how to light those swords, you need to know how to do a bunch of stuff about it.

01:27:49   Did you guys watch the cartoons?

01:27:52   So I did, because I had, you know...

01:27:55   I think the last time we were on, Jon and I were imploring you to watch the old Samurai

01:27:58   Jack animated ones.

01:27:59   Oh, I did watch those too, and they were so much better than they sound.

01:28:06   But the problem I had all along with The Clone Wars was that every season, so many of the

01:28:14   episodes were just like...

01:28:17   And it's so weird because it's like, with a regular sitcom growing up, you know, like

01:28:23   an episode of Different Strokes, it's like you've got a cast, you've got a set, somebody

01:28:28   writes a script, and you know, they're not all going to be good.

01:28:32   I feel like that's the song to the Facts of Life.

01:28:35   But they all show, you've got cameras, you've got crew, and you film the episode, and there's

01:28:40   twenty-one episodes a season, and you know, a bunch of them are sort of phoned in, and

01:28:45   that's it.

01:28:46   But like with an animated series, everything has to be drawn.

01:28:49   It just seems like such a waste to...

01:28:53   It seems like there's clearly more work being put into making these episodes than the writing.

01:28:57   You know, there were just so many episodes that were like, why was that even a show?

01:29:01   That was terrible.

01:29:02   Well, I mean, so those things, The Clone Wars and Rebels and those type of shows, they were

01:29:07   not above doing, I thought you were going to say in terms of sitcoms, they were not

01:29:10   above doing the "and everything resets."

01:29:12   Yeah, yep.

01:29:13   They would do a monster of the week, they would do a land on a planet, have a local

01:29:17   problem, maybe hit one or two character notes for a development, but otherwise, we can mostly

01:29:22   forget that that episode happened and it moves on.

01:29:23   But the thing is, Clone Wars and Rebels didn't forget that those episodes happened, and very

01:29:27   often at the end of the season or even in a future season, "Hey, remember that planet

01:29:32   that you landed on when that thing happened?

01:29:33   Here's that person from that planet again."

01:29:35   Right?

01:29:36   So it wasn't as sort of episodic as like a 70s sitcom, but it also wasn't like The Mandalorian,

01:29:41   where it's literally like, you know, The Mandalorian is episodic, but we're following this guy

01:29:45   and he's doing the thing, right?

01:29:48   He's on a quest, he makes progress on his quest, he has sidetracks or whatever.

01:29:53   And I think a lot of it was because those shows, first of all, they had way more seasons,

01:29:57   and second, those were definitely more targeted at kids who would like the episode where you

01:30:02   go on the funny planet and deal with the thing and could handle small character development

01:30:06   between Ahsoka and Anakin in this one episode, but mostly it's about whatever this monster

01:30:11   of the week was.

01:30:12   And it's the same creative team, like it's Filoni and everything, well, not the exact

01:30:16   same creative team, but a lot of the same creative team doing this.

01:30:19   And I think season two of The Mandalorian reminds me a lot more of the rhythm and pacing

01:30:27   of Rebels and later Clone Wars than does season one.

01:30:31   Yeah.

01:30:32   Yeah, and I think the other advantage that they have now, and it also showed to me in

01:30:38   the Clone Wars, and it was that they clearly had their purview of what can you do within

01:30:49   this period of time with these characters.

01:30:51   Yeah, I mean, they were hemmed in.

01:30:53   They had Anakin and Obi-Wan.

01:30:56   You have limited flexibility.

01:30:58   You're book-ended.

01:30:59   Right.

01:31:00   And the next Revenge of the Sith is going to be Lucas's thing, and the Clone Wars movie

01:31:11   was already made.

01:31:13   And so you've just got this interstitial thing, and you can't really change the greater world,

01:31:19   but yet we want you to make 40 or 50 of these episodes.

01:31:23   What are you going to do?

01:31:25   And they also weren't playing with minor characters, right?

01:31:29   And that, to me, is part-- it's not like The Mandalorian hasn't touched major characters,

01:31:37   but by making the primary character not one of the-- it's the opposite direction of Solo,

01:31:45   right?

01:31:46   They took arguably the most beloved hero from the original trilogy and made a whole movie

01:31:50   just about his backstory.

01:31:52   Here with The Mandalorian, they just created an all-new character who exists on the outside

01:31:59   of this realm in a period of time where it's all sort of undefined.

01:32:07   And by not making it about one of the main characters, there's so much more freedom to

01:32:16   me.

01:32:17   Right.

01:32:18   They learned the lesson of Ahsoka.

01:32:21   Ahsoka and the Clone Troopers, none of which were characters in the Star Wars prequels,

01:32:26   right?

01:32:27   Right.

01:32:28   And one of the most valuable properties to come out of Clone Wars is not Anakin and Obi-Wan,

01:32:31   although they are doing an Obi-Wan show.

01:32:33   But Ahsoka is going to get her own show.

01:32:35   And the Clone Troopers that we care about, Fives and all that, they were characters made

01:32:41   out of nothing for the Clone Wars, and those are the most valuable things to come out of

01:32:46   it.

01:32:47   And yes, Obi-Wan and Anakin marched through it, and Ahsoka played off Anakin in an important

01:32:51   way.

01:32:54   Think of it this way.

01:32:55   Clone Wars had not introduced those new characters, but merely had Obi-Wan and Anakin marching

01:32:59   through the story with minor characters bouncing off them.

01:33:02   It wouldn't have been nearly as good.

01:33:04   Yeah, Obi-Wan is the Miles O'Brien of Star Wars.

01:33:09   In that that guy's just in everything, and he's kind of underappreciated in most of it.

01:33:16   I suppose my question is, what's the...

01:33:27   I guess...

01:33:28   Don't worry, guy.

01:33:29   We'll edit this out.

01:33:30   No, no, I'm trying to formulate this in a careful way.

01:33:38   What's the value of having them be this episodic approach as opposed to trying to wrap it up

01:33:46   in a movie, which I think tries to get to your thesis?

01:33:51   There's certainly less risk.

01:33:54   There's less on the line.

01:33:56   We get to explore more common ideas.

01:33:59   But ultimately, is there value to explore this universe that was made in imaginations

01:34:08   from so many people over the course of our lifetimes?

01:34:14   Or is it to tell a story?

01:34:16   And if it's to tell a story, what's that story if we're willing to just discard some episodes

01:34:23   and be like, "We're moving on and it's more of a situational storytelling endeavor rather

01:34:30   than a narrative storytelling endeavor."

01:34:34   I hope that makes sense.

01:34:35   Sorry, I was trying to formulate that carefully because I think there's a distinction there.

01:34:43   Does the world exist to explore or does the world exist to tell a story?

01:34:49   Well, I think that's one of the mistakes that the most recent movie trilogy made was the

01:34:54   movie trilogies, as established by the original trilogies, have always existed to tell a specific

01:35:02   story, which the original trilogy did so well and so coherently.

01:35:08   And arguably, even though the prequels are terrible, they also told a story.

01:35:14   We know what the story is.

01:35:15   They did it very badly, but it's there.

01:35:19   The third trilogy didn't seem to nail down its story at the start.

01:35:26   So it didn't tell a free thing along the lines.

01:35:29   Like they are connected to each other, but they're connected to each other in a wavy

01:35:33   line that just doesn't terminate in a satisfying way, as we've established.

01:35:36   And that was a big mistake because what we're not looking for is, "Oh, here's three new

01:35:39   adventures in the Star Wars universe."

01:35:41   Because you look at the seven, eight, and nine, you're like, "But you were supposed

01:35:44   to be telling a story and you kind of flubbed that."

01:35:47   So that's what I think the trilogy movies are doing.

01:35:50   But writ large, I think, as I said before, the Star Wars universe exists as a fertile

01:35:54   place where anybody can tell the story that they want to tell.

01:35:58   Like in my past Ink Opera episodes, many moons ago, I was saying, "If someone wants

01:36:03   to make a horror movie in the Star Wars universe, let them.

01:36:07   Go for it."

01:36:08   Right?

01:36:09   Like Star Wars is not a genre, as far as I'm concerned, in terms of creative works.

01:36:13   If you want, you know, we already did the Skywalker thing and I feel like, "Fine, leave

01:36:17   that alone."

01:36:18   Right?

01:36:19   But there are tons of new stories you can tell in this universe.

01:36:21   And it can still be Star Wars because the universe is well established and it will inflect

01:36:26   your story.

01:36:27   That's what's interesting about it.

01:36:28   It's like telling a love story in, you know, Japan with samurai.

01:36:32   Right?

01:36:33   Right.

01:36:34   Love story is the genre.

01:36:35   Japan with samurai is the setting.

01:36:37   You can do that and it's cool and interesting.

01:36:39   Right?

01:36:40   But when people are going to do something, "I'm going to make a TV series.

01:36:45   I'm going to make a single movie.

01:36:46   I'm going to make a trilogy of movies," those people should have stories they want to tell,

01:36:50   whether it's a standalone love story or a set of three movies that connect in an arc,

01:36:54   whatever it is.

01:36:55   They have a story they want to tell and they feel like this story can be best told in the

01:36:58   Star Wars universe.

01:37:00   That's what they're doing.

01:37:01   But Star Wars, as a franchise, I feel like exists for anybody who has a good story to

01:37:05   tell that fits into the Star Wars universe to tell it.

01:37:09   I love that.

01:37:14   And this is very, very, very reductive, but should I put you in the column of more TV

01:37:18   shows and fewer movies?

01:37:22   What do you follow on that spectrum?

01:37:23   Would you like more experimentation with lower stakes or swings for the fences, basically?

01:37:30   What I would personally prefer, which is not perhaps the thing that the Disney Corporation

01:37:35   should do, is I like trilogy movies that tell a story.

01:37:40   That is a Star Wars format that I enjoy.

01:37:42   So if I could only pick one thing that could be Star Wars, I would say get someone to make

01:37:46   a new Star Wars trilogy of movies and have it actually be a sensible story and do a really

01:37:50   good job in it.

01:37:51   That's my personal taste, but whatever.

01:37:55   But I also love TV shows and watch a ton of them.

01:37:57   Now, my personal taste in TV shows does go much more towards the Breaking Bad, The Wire,

01:38:05   The

01:38:28   like

01:38:43   that

01:39:04   is

01:39:23   in

01:39:44   the Star Wars universe.

01:39:59   But whoever comes in, whatever creative person comes in, they have to know what kind of thing

01:40:03   they're doing.

01:40:04   And Dave Filoni, I think, knows what he's trying to do, or knew what he was trying to

01:40:08   do with Clone Wars and Rebels.

01:40:09   And Favreau knows what he's doing with Mandalorian.

01:40:12   And I like seeing that authorial voice.

01:40:15   And it just so happens that their authorial voice, I think, fits very well with the Star

01:40:19   Wars franchise.

01:40:20   Now, there's a reason that so many people list.

01:40:22   To be honest, it aligns with us.

01:40:26   Well, what I was going to say, there's a reason people of our generation and who have similar

01:40:31   tastes to us and me, they all cite Empire as our favorite Star Wars movie, because it

01:40:35   actually is the most sophisticated.

01:40:38   Its relationships are one notch a little bit more nuanced than just like Luke finds the

01:40:43   pretty princess and maybe Han is a little bit jealous.

01:40:47   They take that one more notch of complexity.

01:40:49   Instead of being middle school complexity, it's high school level romance complexity.

01:40:54   And Luke and his father, and then I feel like Jedi, for all its Ewoks that people complain

01:40:59   about, takes it a level farther.

01:41:00   And see my episode where I talked about Return of the Jedi and the Incomparable, having a

01:41:05   franchise capping climactic movie where the hero wins through being passive and refusing

01:41:12   to fight remains unprecedented.

01:41:15   And it's actually a way more complex message and story than people give it credit for now,

01:41:21   so much so that it's essentially never been attempted again.

01:41:23   I mean, it wasn't like Captain America was putting down his shield and refusing to fight

01:41:27   Thanos.

01:41:28   It's just not done.

01:41:31   So you mentioned, and I agree, it actually is.

01:41:34   And I totally did not respect it.

01:41:37   Not that I didn't respect it.

01:41:40   As a kid when Return of the Jedi came out, I loved the opening and I did not care for

01:41:47   the Ewok stuff at all.

01:41:50   And I loved the space battle and I loved the climactic Vader, Luke, Emperor finale in the

01:41:59   throne room.

01:42:00   I just thought that the whole thing on Endor was like, "Ah, this is like 40 minutes of

01:42:06   filler and it's like, it's just so blatant that they just wanted to get our main characters

01:42:10   together and okay, the speeder bikes are cool, blah, blah, blah."

01:42:16   I didn't think, "Oh, that sucks that Luke refused to try to fight the Emperor with his

01:42:21   lightsaber."

01:42:23   But I didn't respect it at all.

01:42:25   And I agree with you, Jon, that in hindsight, it's remarkable.

01:42:29   It's this movie about people cutting off arms and shooting people and blowing up things

01:42:34   and the true climax.

01:42:37   And it feels, it is a natural storytelling moment.

01:42:40   It comes about organically and feels true to all of the characters.

01:42:45   And true to what came before it.

01:42:46   We had three movies, Knowledge and Defense, Never Attack.

01:42:49   That wasn't BS.

01:42:51   That was the T-shirt.

01:42:52   It was earned.

01:42:53   It was so earned.

01:42:54   Yeah.

01:42:55   And it is interesting.

01:42:58   And it's, to me, it helps that movie stand as a classic.

01:43:02   Helps the whole trilogy feel like it was tied off in a bundle and it stands as a trilogy.

01:43:08   And to me, too, to go back to just my opening point that it doesn't matter how long the

01:43:13   ongoing cinematic universe goes and it doesn't matter what's officially canon and what's

01:43:19   not and what used to be canon and got erased when they decided to reset it.

01:43:24   Those three movies stand alone and there's nothing that can come.

01:43:26   They could make 20 seasons of The Mandalorian and make Obi-Wan and young Princess Leia and

01:43:35   do whatever you want.

01:43:36   Do a whole series where...

01:43:37   I mean, eventually, I've been saying this for years, eventually they're going to reboot

01:43:40   the original trilogy, you realize.

01:43:43   And I'll be fine with that, too, because that doesn't take away from the original movies.

01:43:46   They're going to do it.

01:43:47   They're going to cast the new Luke and Leia and they're going to redo the trilogy.

01:43:49   Probably when we're grandparents, right?

01:43:51   I don't know about that.

01:43:52   That's a great idea.

01:43:53   Wait, so that sort of leads me to...

01:43:54   It does leave me alone that they absolutely will.

01:43:56   That leads me to something that I was going to ask previously.

01:43:58   And eventually it's, what is it, one hour, 50 minutes closing in?

01:44:03   We should talk about Mandalorian season two.

01:44:07   What is your pecking order in terms of canon?

01:44:11   And I don't mean in like...

01:44:12   I don't worry about canon.

01:44:14   I don't worry about it either.

01:44:15   Do you know what?

01:44:16   If it existed in the cartoon, that's cool.

01:44:18   I used to worry about it.

01:44:19   If it exists in a TV show, that's cool.

01:44:21   If it's in the movies, that counts.

01:44:23   Is basically it.

01:44:25   You know, there's been a lot of people complaining about the end of season two of The Mandalorian

01:44:29   because...

01:44:30   You can say that.

01:44:32   Spoilers are free.

01:44:33   Just saying.

01:44:34   Spoilers are free.

01:44:35   He couldn't take the Darksaber because blah blah blah, Mandalorian BS code.

01:44:40   And they were like, well, in the cartoon, somebody...

01:44:42   Who cares?

01:44:43   Don't worry about it.

01:44:44   There's a pecking order to this stuff and whatever gets written later...

01:44:47   I think it made perfect sense in The Mandalorian season two because our character, our hero,

01:44:52   is established as, we didn't know this in season one, but in season two, it revealed

01:44:55   that, hey, you know, Mandalorians are as straight edge as you are about the whole helmet business,

01:45:00   right?

01:45:01   Yeah.

01:45:02   That's one of the best things.

01:45:03   That's one of the things I love about Worf is whenever he interacts with Klingons, they're

01:45:06   like, whoa, dude, you just, you got to tone down the Klingon.

01:45:08   And in season one, you didn't realize that.

01:45:10   You just thought they were all like that, but now you realize they're not.

01:45:12   And so the whole rules about the, oh, well, you got to fight for him.

01:45:15   It's no more stupid or reasonable than any of the other rules about Mandalorians.

01:45:20   And I can imagine, you know, for who, depending on who's on either side of the dark saber,

01:45:24   saying, oh, I actually take that rule super seriously.

01:45:26   And I can't actually, you can't actually just give it to me because then I won't be the

01:45:29   rightful leader.

01:45:30   People got all sorts of BS rules for their society.

01:45:33   And so I'm willing to let that slide.

01:45:34   And yes, I know it was different in the, in the Clone Wars, but if you don't believe in

01:45:37   those rules, you're not bound by them.

01:45:38   But if you do, then you are.

01:45:40   Me too.

01:45:41   Exactly how I feel.

01:45:42   And you know what I love about that is immediate and very first reaction is, well, I yield.

01:45:47   That's the sizzle.

01:45:48   I don't care.

01:45:51   You have it.

01:45:52   I yield.

01:45:53   Okay, fine.

01:45:54   You beat me.

01:45:55   It doesn't matter.

01:45:56   It was the helmet.

01:45:57   And he already got over that because he had, he was forced a couple episodes earlier to

01:45:58   make a choice.

01:45:59   Like, do you care more about the helmet rules?

01:46:00   Do you care more about saving the child?

01:46:02   Then he made his choice.

01:46:03   Exactly.

01:46:04   He's like, I don't care.

01:46:05   This is yours.

01:46:06   I yield.

01:46:07   I don't need my ego to fight over this dumb thing that I got off this asshole that was

01:46:13   going to kill a kid.

01:46:14   So he's not interested in going, trying to blow up the Death Star too, right?

01:46:17   No, and if anything, he's frustrated about it.

01:46:19   Just take it.

01:46:20   I don't want any part of any of this.

01:46:22   And this crazy wizard guy that just came in and chopped up a whole bunch of Cylons.

01:46:26   That guy's kind of spooky.

01:46:29   And he just took my kid.

01:46:32   There's a scene in the first season that bothered me, but in hindsight now I realized they were

01:46:37   right.

01:46:38   I like it.

01:46:39   And the further development of the Mandalorian character says to me that it actually was

01:46:44   right.

01:46:45   But it's the scene.

01:46:46   It might've been the first episode.

01:46:47   But early on, you mentioned it where he somehow gets caught up with some Jawas.

01:46:52   And the Jawas steal his stuff.

01:46:55   And then he gets him back.

01:46:58   But he doesn't kill all the Jawas.

01:47:00   And I was like, come on.

01:47:01   This guy.

01:47:02   And it's because I was reading too much into what I thought the Mandalorian was.

01:47:09   And he was.

01:47:10   He was a badass when he was going after one of his targets.

01:47:14   But it turns out that not killing those Jawas for stealing his stuff was definitely correct

01:47:20   for this character.

01:47:22   And that was a darker take on this.

01:47:24   I was thinking about that the other day.

01:47:26   So the first episode of the season one of The Mandalorian, our bounty hunter is faced

01:47:31   with the situation where he's got to kill this cute little thing.

01:47:33   And is he going to do it or not?

01:47:34   It turns out he saves the cute little thing instead of killing it.

01:47:38   The way he sort of—

01:47:39   Just for any listeners out there, if you've got a choice between shooting a baby and a

01:47:42   robot, shoot the robot.

01:47:44   Shoot the robot every time.

01:47:46   It was a murderous robot.

01:47:47   It wasn't just a bystander.

01:47:48   It was a robot.

01:47:49   I don't care.

01:47:50   Shoot the robot.

01:47:51   You can build another robot.

01:47:52   Come on.

01:47:53   The more conventional way to do this character in the modern era of television is to have

01:47:57   a previous series of events where The Mandalorian is established as somebody who does hew to

01:48:04   the bounty hunter code by showing a situation where he is told to bring in a sympathetic

01:48:10   character dead or alive and ends up killing him.

01:48:14   And we see him do that like, "Oh, this guy's the anti-hero thing.

01:48:18   He's a little bit of a bad guy.

01:48:20   He has a code and maybe he didn't want to kill a guy."

01:48:22   It was like, "Well, I'm a bounty hunter.

01:48:23   I've got to do what I've got to do."

01:48:24   And I kill him.

01:48:25   And then when he's faced with baby Yoda, he's like, "Okay, well now I make a different

01:48:30   choice."

01:48:31   But The Mandalorian doesn't do that.

01:48:32   The Mandalorian says, "From season one, episode one, this guy's got a gruff exterior,

01:48:37   but he's a softy.

01:48:39   He knows right from wrong.

01:48:40   He's had a hard life.

01:48:42   He puts on a hard front.

01:48:43   He's a great fighter.

01:48:44   But there isn't the episode where he kills a baby Yoda and then has second choices about

01:48:48   the second and is haunted by it and then makes a different choice on the second baby Yoda.

01:48:51   He's good from the jump, right?

01:48:54   I agree with you so much because the Horatio Sans character, the blue guy that they meet

01:48:59   in the bar, it's like, "I can bring you in warm or cold?"

01:49:03   And then he's an idiot.

01:49:05   And he goes messing around with things.

01:49:07   And it's like, "Yeah, he turns up cold.

01:49:09   But he's not dead.

01:49:10   He's just frozen in carbonite."

01:49:11   It'll be back in season two and they'll be friends.

01:49:15   That's part of the family-friendly nature of the show.

01:49:18   And it's part of also understanding that you can have a character who has to do a job and

01:49:22   is conflicted and has character development and moments without first putting them into

01:49:26   the super-duper anti-hero thing.

01:49:29   The farthest Star Wars has ever gone in that, famously, is Han Solo shooting Greedo first,

01:49:34   which is the hardest core arc that you get of like, "We know Han is good-hearted, but

01:49:39   we also, the first thing we see him do, I mean, granted, it's self-defense, but we don't

01:49:44   see him find a non-O'odham way out of that situation.

01:49:46   I feel like that's why Lucas regretted that and keeps trying to mess with it or whatever.

01:49:50   And I think that little harder edge helps in an otherwise fairly fluffy movie.

01:49:54   But the Mandalorian clearly, they want you to know this character has inner turmoil and

01:50:00   everything, but we are on the Mandalorian side from the very beginning.

01:50:05   And we feel his struggles as he goes on with his whole coat and his helmet and the people

01:50:09   and the kid and whatever, but we always know in his heart that he's good.

01:50:13   Yeah, I think I forgive Spielberg and Lucas for their VA examination of the violence that

01:50:23   they visited in those earlier films.

01:50:28   It is unfortunate that you can reach back into history and to change things, but I understand

01:50:32   that they've moved their perspective and now they don't want their hero to shoot people

01:50:36   or the bad guys in E.T. to be carrying guns and now you get walkie-talkies.

01:50:41   I think it's a mistake.

01:50:45   And I reject the revisionism of it, but I understand the evolving nuance because I think

01:50:53   we've changed too, right?

01:50:54   Like if we'd made something in an earlier period, I think whatever work you make is

01:51:04   a part of the period in which it's made, right?

01:51:08   You build things within the culture.

01:51:10   The solution is to make new things, not to go back and change the old.

01:51:13   Exactly.

01:51:14   Because you're not actually changing anything.

01:51:15   We know you made the old thing the other way.

01:51:16   And honestly, Han shooting first is in a life or death situation anyway where Greedo basically

01:51:21   says he's going to kill him is totally justified and perfectly fine.

01:51:24   And it's not like Han is a super hard-edged thing.

01:51:27   As soon as we see his guard down, these guys must really be desperate when he says that

01:51:32   he sounds like a little kid.

01:51:33   Exactly.

01:51:34   And so, sorry, just to finish that thought, that's why I like The Mandalorian, as that

01:51:40   is the way you address that.

01:51:42   You have a character that's a total badass and his version of like, "I can bring in warm

01:51:48   or cold."

01:51:49   It's like, "Well, you're still going to be alive, I'm not going to kill you.

01:51:51   Come on, what am I, a jerk?"

01:51:53   He doesn't want to kill you.

01:51:54   He doesn't want to kill you.

01:51:55   He will if he has to, he kills plenty of people on this show, but it's not his preferred course.

01:52:01   As we reveal his backstory, he's had a difficult life.

01:52:04   The droids came and killed his parents, he got adopted by these Mandalorians that had

01:52:08   the strict code, he had to learn to be a fighter.

01:52:11   But he doesn't, like, if he had grown up in luxury and not had to worry about this whole

01:52:16   situation, he would not have ended up as a bounty hunter, for sure.

01:52:19   Right.

01:52:20   And even then, he comes to love droids, episode one of season two.

01:52:23   He's like, "You know what?

01:52:24   Let those stupid droids just go up my ship.

01:52:28   That's fine.

01:52:29   They're not going to..."

01:52:32   My Han and Greedo analogy is that Lucas went back to that scene as though, imagine if the

01:52:37   original scene had been Han was on his way out.

01:52:41   He was already done, he's like, "All right, we got this deal with this crazy old man.

01:52:44   We're leaving."

01:52:45   He looks out of his corner of his eye and Greedo just happens to be at a table having

01:52:48   a drink.

01:52:49   And he goes, "Greedo!"

01:52:51   And Greedo's like, "Ah!"

01:52:53   And he's like, "Hey, remember that time you cheated me at cards?"

01:52:56   And Greedo's like, "Oh yeah, ha ha."

01:52:58   And then Han just shoots him dead and then walks out the door.

01:53:01   Right?

01:53:02   Now, you laugh, but there are scenes like in the Clint Eastwood Westerns where stuff

01:53:06   like that happens, where a guy just, you know, just out of the blue just shoots a guy.

01:53:10   If Han had done that, I could see where Lucas would be like, "I got it."

01:53:14   That never sounds right.

01:53:15   But then Han Solo wouldn't be the Han Solo that we know.

01:53:17   Like the reason we love him so much is because he's not that type of jerk.

01:53:20   Like, his arc in the first movie is I start off seeming like a jerk, and then I mostly

01:53:25   seem like I'm selfish, but in the end I'm neither one of those things.

01:53:28   And that's movie number one.

01:53:29   I think his first thing when he shoots Greedo is like, "I'm just trying to survive.

01:53:33   I'm just trying to get out of here.

01:53:34   I'm going to do this thing that I'm not happy about."

01:53:36   He's a survivor for sure, you know, over my dead body.

01:53:39   That's the idea.

01:53:40   It's clear he's going to be killed.

01:53:41   Until he turns around and he comes back and saves Luke, which is the whole point.

01:53:45   And he does, he tips the bartender extra.

01:53:48   Sorry for the mess.

01:53:49   Sorry for the mess.

01:53:50   Yeah.

01:53:51   Which, I mean, the last time Jon and I killed somebody in a bar, we didn't even tip that

01:53:57   well.

01:53:58   We just ran.

01:53:59   Just bolted.

01:54:00   So, Jon, I'm almost surprised to hear you call the character Baby Yoda.

01:54:05   He has a name.

01:54:07   Does he have a name?

01:54:10   I feel like if they could have ever...

01:54:12   I can't help but think that they regretted not giving him a name instantly.

01:54:17   It's part of the mystery of season one of The Mandalorian.

01:54:21   And lets you defer a difficult decision until later.

01:54:24   Right.

01:54:25   And it almost...

01:54:26   Have you guys seen the gallery for season two?

01:54:28   Yeah, I did.

01:54:30   Okay.

01:54:31   Yeah.

01:54:32   It's not pertinent to this, but it will come up and I just want to...

01:54:34   The what for season two?

01:54:35   The gallery, the Star Wars gallery.

01:54:37   The making of.

01:54:38   The making of.

01:54:39   Oh, no, I did not see it.

01:54:40   I did not.

01:54:41   But you can tell.

01:54:42   It's a single episode so far.

01:54:43   Making of.

01:54:44   Yeah, I mean, it's not going to ruin anything.

01:54:45   It's how they made it, but yeah.

01:54:48   But his name is Grogu.

01:54:50   Which is a fine name.

01:54:51   It's a fine Star Wars name.

01:54:56   It's such a great relationship.

01:54:58   I liked it immediately and I know people latched on, "Oh my God, he's adorable."

01:55:03   But he is adorable.

01:55:04   He is.

01:55:05   It's that simple.

01:55:06   There's no reason to overcomplicate it.

01:55:08   It's an adorable idea.

01:55:09   You get it immediately.

01:55:11   He's one of Yoda's species.

01:55:13   He's obviously special.

01:55:15   He's powerful in the Force.

01:55:18   And it's a fantastic combination of introducing a very Star Wars-ian character and a MacGuffin

01:55:27   all in one.

01:55:29   It is so great.

01:55:30   But then the other thing, like one of the great tricks of the original Star Wars is,

01:55:36   like Spielberg has said, his favorite character is R2-D2 because he's the most purely cinematic

01:55:41   character in movie history.

01:55:42   Because he can't talk.

01:55:43   It doesn't even make any technical sense.

01:55:45   You have a universe where the computers can talk, obviously, because C-3PO does.

01:55:50   And this guy just beeps.

01:55:51   He has an astromech.

01:55:52   What does he need to talk for?

01:55:56   It's just a little person at a trash can.

01:55:59   You know what, though?

01:56:00   When we were growing up and we could hear our hard drives whirring and be like, "Ooh,

01:56:04   that's a bisector."

01:56:05   Right.

01:56:06   But Chewbacca never gets a subtitle.

01:56:10   You know, and of course they do the dialogue thing where the—

01:56:14   Yeah, they do that with R2 as well.

01:56:16   C-3PO basically translates for him by responding.

01:56:18   The response includes you get to—but it's a great thing that only really makes sense

01:56:25   in cinema, right?

01:56:26   Like, you know, the novelizations never really capture R2-D2 or Chewbacca, you know, or even

01:56:33   the comic books.

01:56:34   You know, because it's the actual beeping.

01:56:36   There's nothing you can do in a comic book to make the beep emote.

01:56:39   Do you guys remember Buck Rogers where there's like a little robot who wore a medallion of

01:56:46   another little robot that looked like a speaking spell?

01:56:48   That was a doctor.

01:56:49   Doctor something.

01:56:50   Yeah.

01:56:51   And he used to go like, "But a butter butter butter butter" or something like that.

01:56:54   "But a butter butter."

01:56:55   "Twiggy."

01:56:56   Honestly.

01:56:57   "Twiggy and not Dr. Zaius.

01:56:58   That's Planet of the Apes."

01:56:59   "Dr. Zaius and Planet of the Apes."

01:57:00   Yeah, I don't know.

01:57:01   You go look it up.

01:57:02   And what I'm saying is like, you know what, they could have done that for Star Wars.

01:57:05   They did not.

01:57:06   And I think it takes one of the things that I think makes Star Wars so great is the willingness

01:57:13   not to explain things to you.

01:57:16   Is to just let them sit there.

01:57:18   And Chewbacca growls and you're like, "Yeah, that didn't seem good."

01:57:23   Or he sort of chuckles at Han.

01:57:26   And you're like, "Yeah, I don't know what you're laughing about exactly.

01:57:29   But yeah, Han's being a bit of an idiot."

01:57:32   And you get that and you run with it and it lands.

01:57:38   I think of anything where the prequels—well, there's a lot of places where the prequels

01:57:43   fell down for me.

01:57:45   But it's over-explaining Vader.

01:57:47   Oh, yeah.

01:57:48   Like, just stop.

01:57:50   You don't need to explain this stuff.

01:57:52   The magic is—

01:57:53   Over-explaining isn't the problem.

01:57:54   By the way, it was Dr. Theopolis.

01:57:55   Thank you.

01:57:56   Yes, that was it.

01:57:57   Thank you.

01:57:58   I was vamping to get it.

01:58:01   The other—the prequel thing, not to go into it too much, but getting back to The Godfather

01:58:08   again, the story that the prequels had to tell was, "How did the good man that was

01:58:15   your father become Darth Vader?"

01:58:17   That was the story they had to tell.

01:58:18   We already know how it's going to please tell me that story.

01:58:21   And the best example in my movie canon of seeing something like that happen in a believable

01:58:27   way is The Godfather Part 1 and 2.

01:58:30   Because we have someone who is essentially a good person at every point trying to make

01:58:34   what he thinks is the right decision, but essentially ending up as a force for evil,

01:58:38   despite his best efforts, unknowingly.

01:58:40   It's hard to tell that story.

01:58:42   So it's not like, "Oh, please don't explain to me how Anakin turned."

01:58:45   I want to know how Anakin turned.

01:58:46   It's a great story.

01:58:47   Godfather Part 1 and 2 tell a great story of a essentially good-hearted person, a good-hearted,

01:58:52   smart person trying to do the right thing and ending up where he ends up at the end

01:58:55   of Godfather 2, which is not a good place.

01:58:58   It can be done.

01:58:59   It's just pretty darn tricky.

01:59:00   Well, it's actually true for both him and his father, right?

01:59:05   And that's what makes The Godfather 2 so brilliant.

01:59:07   Right.

01:59:08   It's not what I wanted for you.

01:59:09   Right.

01:59:10   And also a good person who is honest and does what he says he's going to do.

01:59:15   Although Marlon Brando, the original Godfather, does end up as a comparison against Michael

01:59:20   in that he gets to go out more or less never having killed his own brother.

01:59:26   You know what I mean?

01:59:28   He stuck to his code.

01:59:30   He did leave his family better than he found it.

01:59:33   You know what I mean?

01:59:34   Right.

01:59:35   Right.

01:59:36   And the son didn't live up to that, let alone be a senator.

01:59:39   Right.

01:59:40   Right.

01:59:41   Yeah.

01:59:42   I would say—I'll just insert my annual holiday spectacular, perhaps surprising to

01:59:49   many aside, that I enjoyed the prequel trilogy much more than just about anybody of my generation

01:59:56   that I know and think that they are fine movies.

01:59:58   They're not—

01:59:59   You watch James Bond movies, so you're used to some bad dialogue and dumb plots.

02:00:02   Well, they're not what I wanted, and they're not what I would have made, but I appreciate

02:00:07   them for what they are.

02:00:09   I'll land in the—

02:00:10   There's some beautiful design and good music in those movies.

02:00:12   I will land in the middle, and I 100% agree with Syracuse that there is beautiful design

02:00:17   in there.

02:00:18   Holy cow, some of those shots are great.

02:00:21   Phantom Menace especially has a lot of very vertical columns in the throne.

02:00:25   There's a lot of cool stuff going on.

02:00:27   Anakin Skywalker is no Michael Corleone in terms of—

02:00:31   No.

02:00:32   No, they totally blew the story.

02:00:33   I'm saying, "You can tell that story."

02:00:34   They did not.

02:00:35   Sorry.

02:00:36   In any kind of believable way, they just blew it 100%.

02:00:40   A much more Michael Corleone-ish, young Michael Corleone-ish young Anakin Skywalker would

02:00:46   have made for a much better trilogy.

02:00:47   But anyway—

02:00:48   Yeah, he's coming back, by the way.

02:00:49   I don't know if you know that.

02:00:50   Who is?

02:00:51   Hayden Christensen.

02:00:52   Oh, yeah, I did hear that.

02:00:53   Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:00:54   By the way, Kenobi's my favorite guy.

02:00:57   I'm so happy that we're going to get a show about that, and I've got a lot of trepidation

02:01:04   about it being actually good.

02:01:05   He's got some good scripts that he can do some justice with.

02:01:08   Yeah.

02:01:09   I mean, he's an amazing actor.

02:01:10   Come on.

02:01:11   Well, and there is, I guess—so here we get to the greater expanded universe that they're

02:01:16   popping, they're sprouting.

02:01:18   And to me, this is what makes The Mandalorian so clearly successful, is that they're using

02:01:23   it now as the trunk to branch other things off.

02:01:26   You've got the Boba Fett series, you've got the Ahsoka series.

02:01:29   Right, and the Ahsoka series wasn't—to me, at least as somebody who doesn't follow

02:01:33   the comic book news, comic book world news, my understanding is that the announcement

02:01:39   that Ahsoka is going to have her own series came after her appearance on The Mandalorian.

02:01:45   And during her episode, they introduced that she—what is she doing in the world at this

02:01:50   time?

02:01:51   She's hunting down Grand Admiral—

02:01:53   Grand Admiral Thrawn, who's a guy from the books, but also appeared in Rebels.

02:01:56   Right.

02:01:57   And all of a—

02:01:58   So he's part of the "canon."

02:01:59   Right.

02:02:00   And so all of a sudden, you're like, "Whoa, how is that going to fit into The Mandalorian?"

02:02:02   And it's like, "This is terribly exciting.

02:02:04   I remember him.

02:02:05   He's a good bad guy."

02:02:06   He's like, you know, whether you really, really are into him or not, you have to admit he's

02:02:10   a pretty good bad guy.

02:02:13   And you know—

02:02:14   He's an Erwin Rommel kind of guy, just for people who haven't—Erwin Rommel being an

02:02:22   Nazi general, so definitely no good.

02:02:23   For the kids who don't know who Thrawn is but who know who Rommel is, that's a nice

02:02:28   small group.

02:02:29   I don't—Rommel was a Nazi general in North Africa, fought the British on the U.S. to

02:02:36   some degree, was going to reinforce the beaches on D-Day, but ultimately—

02:02:41   He was a Nazi general who was kind of like a Grand Admiral Thrawn, if that helps.

02:02:46   But I always ultimately turned against Hitler and got shot for it.

02:02:50   Not a good guy, but somebody that the British like to prop up because it made them feel

02:02:53   great about fighting an honorable opponent.

02:02:57   But Grand Admiral Thrawn is definitely like, "Let's take Rommel and make him blue and put

02:03:01   him in space."

02:03:02   Right.

02:03:03   I believe we have covered in past Holiday Spectaculars the very conspicuous plot holes

02:03:10   and patchworks and gaps and things that really don't add up at all between maybe the way

02:03:18   that George Lucas didn't really think things through and then tried to make them through.

02:03:24   Like for example, just the whole, "Why in the world did Obi-Wan and Yoda not go to kill

02:03:31   the Emperor together?

02:03:33   Why in the world would they split up?"

02:03:34   And then even when they failed in their own weird ways, why did they go into exile for

02:03:38   twenty years when they both clearly were very close to being able to defeat these enemies?

02:03:44   And then just let the whole galaxy succumb to a sort of fascistic, authoritarian, evil

02:03:54   regime?

02:03:55   I don't know, but I think it explains what Luke did.

02:03:57   He's like, "I don't know.

02:03:58   I don't know, Dad.

02:03:59   You taught me.

02:04:00   I don't know why I'm smoking pot, Dad.

02:04:02   You told me to run away to this island and down here."

02:04:04   The problem is that we have the prequels that tried to explain it, so that's stuck in our

02:04:07   mind.

02:04:08   It doesn't make sense.

02:04:09   But without the prequels there, you can come up with reasons that make sense in terms of

02:04:12   just personally being devastated by what's happened and sort of punishing yourself and

02:04:19   exiling yourself and all that business.

02:04:21   Right.

02:04:22   Well, even there, I think the last Jedi and Luke's position there supports that.

02:04:29   What am I going to do?

02:04:30   Walk out there with a lacer sword and beat the whole Empire?

02:04:32   No.

02:04:33   I'm just a guy.

02:04:34   I can't do that.

02:04:35   I can't do it.

02:04:36   But if Yoda and Obi-Wan had been like, "You know what?

02:04:40   There's two of us.

02:04:42   There's an entire galaxy full of these people."

02:04:44   They were playing a long game.

02:04:46   I mean, they were stupidly hiding Vader's son on his own planet, but whatever.

02:04:50   They had a long game.

02:04:51   The long game was Luke and Leia.

02:04:53   But the argument about, "Why didn't we just double our forces and go take out the Emperor?"

02:04:57   Well, if you ignore the prequels, that wouldn't have been an issue.

02:05:04   That would have been like, "Well, there's about a million stormtroopers between here

02:05:08   and there, and there's only two of us.

02:05:10   That's just not going to work no matter how much of a badass samurai you are."

02:05:14   Well, I still think…

02:05:15   I've always thought that it was ambiguous.

02:05:18   Right from the beginning, just what Vader meant, right in the first movie when he says,

02:05:22   "When last we met, I was but the learner."

02:05:24   I mean, you get the sense.

02:05:26   We find out later that Obi-Wan did this to Vader.

02:05:31   But it was always, to me, it seemed purposefully vague as to whether there was one incident

02:05:37   20 years prior where that happened and they haven't seen each other since, or whether

02:05:41   they had seen each other in interstitial years at some point, even though it's clear that

02:05:48   he hadn't seen Obi-Wan in a while.

02:05:50   Yeah, they could do another thing.

02:05:52   I do sort of prefer it if he just left him there.

02:05:57   I don't think they're going to be seeing each other again, because it was pretty clear,

02:06:00   I think, in A New Hope where it's like they split up, and they split up when last we met.

02:06:06   They were student and teacher.

02:06:08   We know that Obi-Wan taught him, blah, blah, blah.

02:06:11   And they don't come back together again until it's on the Death Star with Luke.

02:06:15   I don't think so, but I would have liked if instead of chopping off and said I had the

02:06:19   high ground, which was dumb, he said, "You've still got a lot to learn.

02:06:23   I was going to teach you so much.

02:06:25   On the Master, you're the learner.

02:06:27   Look at you."

02:06:28   Like, that would have been dickish, but it would have added at least a little bit to

02:06:34   Vader's like, "Ah, I'm the Master now."

02:06:36   You know, and speaking of things in the prequel that people don't like and everything, it's

02:06:39   interesting how the Mandalorian has walked the line with the baby Yoda.

02:06:45   He's got a high M count.

02:06:46   We don't want to say the word, but his blood has something in it that starts with the letter

02:06:50   M. Also, it's importantly only the Imperials

02:06:55   that say that.

02:06:56   Right, and what they're doing with it, right?

02:06:58   So they're either resurrecting the Emperor, they're making the Snokes, or whatever the

02:07:02   hell they're doing, right?

02:07:03   They're tying it into the movie canon that exists in a way that's like, "Okay, we've

02:07:08   done two seasons of this, and we're still not in a big darn hurry to tell you what they're

02:07:11   doing with baby Yoda's blood," right?

02:07:13   But it's pretty clear they're making either Snokes or Emperors or something like that,

02:07:17   or maybe a third thing that we don't know about, right?

02:07:19   But we're so much all on board with that now, and as much as I despise the prequels and

02:07:24   as much as I think the old talk of Megaclorians was done, I will continue to say this.

02:07:29   The very first movie in the entire original trilogy, this force is strong in your family.

02:07:34   It is, for better or for worse, I know people don't like it, I know they won't, you know,

02:07:38   but for better or for worse, it is a hereditary thing.

02:07:41   Now, interestingly for the Last Jedi people, that doesn't mean that there's literally only

02:07:46   one family in the entire universe that can have the force.

02:07:49   Lots of things are hereditary, like skill in sports, right?

02:07:53   Can be passed on from father to son, yet there's not a single family that populates the entire

02:07:57   Major League Baseball, there are tons of family and they can come from anywhere, so I just

02:08:01   want to say that those two things can live together.

02:08:03   The force, established as hereditary, also means there can be people other than the Skywalkers

02:08:08   and Palpatines that have it.

02:08:09   In fact, there can be millions of people who have it, and in fact, just like being good

02:08:13   at baseball, just because you're good at baseball, and even if you're Andre Agassi and Steffi

02:08:18   Groff, doesn't mean every single one of your kids is going to be number one in the world

02:08:20   in tennis, right?

02:08:22   Even though you've got, like, literally the best genes you could possibly imagine.

02:08:26   It's just the way the genetic lottery works, so I'm okay with that.

02:08:29   I'm okay with M-count and midichlorians if they want to say, "Oh, okay, well we figured

02:08:33   out how it's passed on, sort of, kind of."

02:08:35   Just don't tell me too much about it, because all you have to say is, "The force is strong

02:08:38   in your family, I totally buy in, it makes sense, that's all that needs to be said."

02:08:43   I tend to agree.

02:08:44   I am very much into the democracy of the force that Ryan Johnson sort of introduced with

02:08:55   The Last Jedi, but I agree that I don't think that they're opposed.

02:09:01   Anybody can have the force, it's just a matter of practice, and so are more and more predisposed

02:09:05   than others.

02:09:06   And also opportunity, which is a big part of the Ryan Johnson thing, is you don't think

02:09:08   the kid who's sweeping the street has the force, but why wouldn't he?

02:09:11   There's no reason the kid who's sweeping the street isn't going to be the next best pitcher

02:09:15   in the major leagues, right?

02:09:17   Exactly.

02:09:18   It's all about having the opportunity to do that and not being, like, so it all, that

02:09:21   all is completely harmonious to me.

02:09:23   And I think part of the reason I haven't seen anyone freaking out over midichlorians and

02:09:26   the Mandalorian is that, A, they didn't lean on it too much, and B, like, I think people

02:09:33   are on board with that idea.

02:09:35   Like I think it is actually harmonious, and I, you know, half the reason people got bent

02:09:39   out of shape about The Last Jedi has nothing to do with what people say it's about.

02:09:42   No, no, people just…

02:09:43   But there's no, there's no incongruity there.

02:09:48   I feel like as they reveal more about what they were doing with Baby Yoda's blood and

02:09:52   whatever, and they tie it into either Snoke or the Emperor or something else, that'll

02:09:56   be perfectly fine because in the end, the Mandalorian thus far in two seasons has been

02:10:00   a personal story about a small number of characters that we care about, and I don't see that

02:10:03   changing.

02:10:04   Yeah, I think it's a little bit like, it's like the reverse order.

02:10:08   So with, with the midichlorians, we've got these prequels from 20 years ago that went

02:10:13   way too much into trying to explain this, and it's like, what are you doing?

02:10:18   What are you talking about?

02:10:19   Where are you going?

02:10:20   This is awful.

02:10:21   And now you can just sort of touch on it and it's like, okay, we'll accept that.

02:10:25   And it's like the reverse of like galactic Senate politics, right?

02:10:29   Where in the first movie, there's some kind of talk about, wait, what are you trying to

02:10:34   do?

02:10:35   The Senate's going to throw a fit and they're, and Tarkin is just like, ah, the Senate, the

02:10:39   hell with them.

02:10:40   And it's like, okay.

02:10:41   The Emperor dissolved the Senate.

02:10:42   It's like some low level, well, yes, like a lieutenant in the Imperial Navy being like,

02:10:48   hey, just so you know, I'm going to have to answer a lot of calls about this.

02:10:52   And the Vader's like, I don't, I don't give a fuck.

02:10:55   I don't care.

02:10:56   I did you see me strangle somebody?

02:10:58   I don't care.

02:10:59   I'm going to, I'm going to murder a diplomat.

02:11:01   So you figure it out.

02:11:03   I've got questions here though, about the Grogru, the baby Yoda.

02:11:07   So the, I, as I understand it just from watching the show, that baby Yoda is like 30 years

02:11:16   old, 50 years old.

02:11:18   So and he was in the Jedi training.

02:11:22   He's the same age as Anakin or the same year.

02:11:26   Okay.

02:11:27   Ah.

02:11:28   And, and so that sort of explains how Yoda could be 930 years old, you know, in Return

02:11:34   of the Jedi.

02:11:35   Different species age differently.

02:11:37   And he's so he ages these, these, these, whatever they are age so slowly that a 50 year old

02:11:44   still can't even talk.

02:11:47   So wait, just a sec, both of you have children and neither of you are as Zen in the Force

02:11:52   as I suspect you'd like to be.

02:11:56   Would you put up with a toddler for 50 years?

02:11:58   I mean, I feel like if I live for 900 years, it's all proportional.

02:12:01   Right?

02:12:02   I wouldn't feel like I'm burning 50 years, more than half of my life changing diapers.

02:12:07   Fair enough.

02:12:08   Fair enough.

02:12:09   It does seem like a lot of work, but.

02:12:11   I take that trade.

02:12:12   If my kids still couldn't talk at 50, but I lived to 900, sign me up.

02:12:15   All right.

02:12:16   But man, what a good dad.

02:12:18   Part.

02:12:19   So part, part of the problem with the whole Star Wars time span, or at least the time span

02:12:25   we're familiar with from the, you know, cause obviously you could go back a thousand years

02:12:31   and I know there was the Knights of the Old Republic video game.

02:12:34   That's like, they're doing a TV series for that.

02:12:37   It's not as far back as the Knights of the Old Republic, but it's way before the New

02:12:40   Hope.

02:12:41   Young Yoda, if I got to pitch, I would pitch Young Yoda as a pretty good idea for a trilogy,

02:12:47   but that's just my idea.

02:12:48   I mean, the problem with Young Yoda is you are burdened with the now canon of the prequels,

02:12:53   which don't...

02:12:54   I am very adverse to any prequels after having watched, forget the Star Wars prequels, Star

02:13:02   Trek has had a very, very difficult time doing that.

02:13:05   Both Discovery and Enterprise sort of foundered on the shores of the future.

02:13:09   Well, let's not.

02:13:10   In that aspect.

02:13:11   I think Discovery and Enterprise are in two different classes.

02:13:12   I think Discovery is doing a pretty good job.

02:13:14   I do, I do, but they jumped.

02:13:16   They got out of there, right?

02:13:18   Yeah.

02:13:19   I do.

02:13:20   I like it, but I think they, like, I'm not...

02:13:24   I'm sincere when I say that I think they foundered on the shores of the future there.

02:13:28   I think they ran up against things that they could not really rationally make sense.

02:13:33   I don't know if they needed to, but they chose to take them seriously and they got out of

02:13:38   there.

02:13:39   They've gone, not to spoil it, but they're in the far future now and that's different.

02:13:43   And it's a good show, but it doesn't...

02:13:46   I think when you write towards an inevitable conclusion, you have some sort of limits on

02:13:57   where you can go with that.

02:13:58   Yeah, but I mean, you better... if you're going to do that, you better do it in the

02:13:59   form of a trilogy where you know you're just going to have three movies or something.

02:14:02   You can't do it as an ongoing TV series.

02:14:03   Right.

02:14:04   Now, I haven't watched Better Call Saul enough to be able to call that out.

02:14:07   Better Call Saul is fantastic and also very different from Breaking Bad.

02:14:11   I think it's a great example of doing something...

02:14:13   I've had to do it, right?

02:14:15   You can imagine, how can this possibly work?

02:14:16   This is going to be terrible and it isn't, but it also isn't Breaking Bad.

02:14:20   Yeah, I watched most of season one.

02:14:22   It's on my list of like, you know what?

02:14:23   On a rainy day when I'm sick, God forbid, I'm going to binge it all.

02:14:30   So here's my... here's where I'm trying to go with this.

02:14:34   Is in their timeline, there's the era when there were lots of Jedi and the whole one,

02:14:42   two, three prequel trilogy is about, okay, how did they go from there was a lot of Jedi

02:14:48   and a Jedi order to the Jedi are almost extinct when Obi Wan's old and young, Luke is 20 years

02:14:56   old and gets trained.

02:14:59   And there's a time when we're down to literally the last Jedi, right?

02:15:04   That's the name of a movie.

02:15:06   Yet, you can't make Star Wars movies without Jedi, right?

02:15:12   That's the difference between Star Wars and Buck Rogers.

02:15:16   You could, but you want to, right?

02:15:18   And that's...

02:15:19   The Mandalorian did for most of season one.

02:15:22   Solo had a Jedi in it.

02:15:25   But it's hard.

02:15:27   And it's like you end up with the...

02:15:29   I was not a fan of the Rebels show, but you got that kid, what was his name?

02:15:36   Ezra.

02:15:37   Whatever happened to him?

02:15:38   Is he dead?

02:15:39   No.

02:15:40   He went after his Thrawn, which is where we're getting back to the Thrawn thing.

02:15:43   You might say, the characters may be less annoying as adults.

02:15:46   But you end up with this thing where it's like you kind of, as a creator, you need to

02:15:51   start, you need to invent some Jedi because otherwise this isn't Star Wars.

02:15:55   But that's the beauty of the Jedi though, is because it's genetic and because it can

02:15:59   pop up anywhere, right?

02:16:01   That anybody can be strong with the Force and all you really need at that point is a

02:16:04   lightsaber and those don't seem to be too hard to come by.

02:16:07   And all the religious aspects around it of the Jedi Order and the kyber crystals and

02:16:11   all these ceremonies, that can grow and change.

02:16:13   And the Old Republic Jedi are nothing like the Jedi in the prequels and can be nothing

02:16:17   like the Jedi in the future.

02:16:18   If you have a universe where the Force exists and people have laser swords, there will always

02:16:22   be Jedi, so I don't worry about that.

02:16:24   Well what...

02:16:25   And in fact, Ahsoka is nothing like the Jedi we've seen, right?

02:16:28   Yeah, she's got big problems with the Jedi Order.

02:16:30   Yeah, she's like, uh...

02:16:32   Honestly, she did the Mario thing.

02:16:35   It's like your princess is in another castle.

02:16:38   Right.

02:16:39   She's like...

02:16:40   Yeah, I know how to...

02:16:41   Yeah.

02:16:42   She's like a Ronin, right?

02:16:44   She's the Jedi equivalent of a Ronin.

02:16:46   100%.

02:16:47   And who knows how many other ones like that are out there who are just strong in the Force?

02:16:50   I mean, what is Grogu?

02:16:52   He's not being...

02:16:53   Well, I guess Luke's adopted now.

02:16:54   We'll see how that...

02:16:55   But we know how that goes.

02:16:56   And he ends up not doing too well as a...

02:16:58   Yeah.

02:16:59   Running a Jedi Academy.

02:17:00   Well, and where...

02:17:01   Here's where I'm going.

02:17:02   What was Yoda thinking?

02:17:03   Yoda obviously knew about Grogu, and so did Obi-Wan, because he was born 50 years before.

02:17:09   And so that whole time...

02:17:10   Yeah, he might have thought he was dead, though.

02:17:11   So we know that in Revenge of the Sith, most of the Jedi are killed, and the Jedi Temple

02:17:17   is burned down and whatever, and Yoda could think all the younglings, they're all gone

02:17:20   now.

02:17:21   Turns out, maybe Yoda was out eating eggs and he didn't get burned down.

02:17:25   Wouldn't he...

02:17:26   Let's not say that Yoda is racist, but that he...

02:17:31   Remember, Yoda and the stupid prequels is flying around on troop carriers and commanding

02:17:38   troops in the field and doing all sorts of BS or whatever.

02:17:40   But when everything went down with the Jedi Temple and everyone getting killed and Anakin

02:17:46   killing the younglings and everything, Grogu, like I said, he was out stealing eggs somewhere,

02:17:51   and he managed to dodge that whole thing.

02:17:53   And he's so small.

02:17:54   He noticed, and maybe someone smuggled him away.

02:17:56   It's really easy to get Grogu out of that situation without anybody knowing.

02:18:01   And especially since he doesn't know what he's doing, he's little, he doesn't know how

02:18:03   to reach out through the forest, they had to put him on the rock for that.

02:18:07   Real easy for there to be Jedi all over the place that Obi-Wan and Yoda do not know about.

02:18:12   And Jedi sympathizers, too.

02:18:16   Like "Oh my god, Anakin is out here murdering everybody.

02:18:21   I'm just going to grab this kid and run."

02:18:23   That seems reasonable.

02:18:26   Like the guy that's cleaning the floors in the Jedi Temple maybe puts down the cyberspace

02:18:32   mop and just grabs the kid and runs.

02:18:34   Grogu is small.

02:18:35   He's easy to hide.

02:18:37   Yeah.

02:18:38   Well, here's where I'm going with it, though.

02:18:40   Now we reached the end of season two, and I thought it was a pretty good plot point.

02:18:47   I don't love the way it was directed where we watched it on security cameras.

02:18:51   Yeah, well, you do have an effects budget to stay within.

02:18:54   You can keep the hood on and keep it in grainy video.

02:18:57   It saves a lot of money.

02:18:58   I liked it.

02:18:59   I thought it built up a lot.

02:19:02   I liked it.

02:19:04   Everybody knows who it is.

02:19:05   You can tell from the markings on the X-wing for crying out.

02:19:07   Yeah, but they went red.

02:19:08   I loved it somehow.

02:19:10   And god knows when future/past/incredible technology, they still don't have crystal

02:19:18   clear LCD screens.

02:19:21   That's awesome.

02:19:22   It's like, "Yeah, it's black and white," and it skips a few frames.

02:19:27   Who knows if those are red markings?

02:19:28   It's the lived-in future.

02:19:29   They could be anything.

02:19:30   Right.

02:19:31   But we've reached the end of season two.

02:19:33   Luke Skywalker swoops in.

02:19:36   Is the Luke we've always wanted to be.

02:19:38   He doesn't swoop, man.

02:19:39   He saunters in.

02:19:40   Well, he swooped in with the X-wing.

02:19:42   I mean, that was a swoop.

02:19:45   There's a very cool line, very cool line, where Kara—I forget her last name—Kara

02:19:51   something whatever.

02:19:52   Kara-doon?

02:19:53   Duff?

02:19:54   Something like that.

02:19:55   Kara Trace.

02:19:56   No, sorry, wrong one.

02:19:57   But she says, "What good is one X-wing?"

02:19:59   And it's Kara-doon.

02:20:00   It's Gina Carano.

02:20:03   And what a great line, because it's like, "Oh, you know."

02:20:06   It's like, "Whoa."

02:20:07   Like, we're all vaguely aware of the timeline, and it's like, "Oh my god, no."

02:20:13   And I have to say, I didn't watch it on day one, but I've gotten so good at staying spoiler

02:20:19   free.

02:20:20   I had no idea.

02:20:21   I didn't even—

02:20:22   I had no idea as well.

02:20:23   I had no idea.

02:20:24   And I'm watching with my son, and he said it.

02:20:27   He was like, "It's Luke."

02:20:28   And I was like, "I think you're right."

02:20:31   And it was like, "Oh, it was so awesome, so satisfying."

02:20:34   I didn't love watching the whole thing on the security footage, but it's fine, because

02:20:38   it was cool, and he was Luke, and he was as awesome as you could think.

02:20:41   But wait, it wasn't the whole thing.

02:20:43   And it—

02:20:44   Right.

02:20:45   Well, and then—

02:20:46   Honestly, I think it would have been good—

02:20:48   Well, the fight was—

02:20:50   It would have maybe fed our childish wishes to see him just murder a bunch of toys, but—

02:20:57   What some people wanted was the equivalent of the Rogue One Vader hallway scene.

02:21:01   Right, right.

02:21:02   But they got it!

02:21:03   They literally did it.

02:21:04   Right, but it wasn't as artfully done.

02:21:06   The Vader hallway scene was beautifully shot and complicated, and it's really easy because

02:21:10   you can put any guy in that suit, and you don't have to see their face and everything

02:21:12   like that.

02:21:13   This one, they felt like they had—you know, it was less dynamic, the darktrooper suit

02:21:16   was kind of lined up.

02:21:17   It's a TV show.

02:21:18   Ultimately, it's a show.

02:21:19   Exactly.

02:21:20   Right, it's a TV show.

02:21:22   But I—

02:21:23   It works for me.

02:21:25   I think it gave us the Luke that we wanted to see back in, let's say, when was—Jedi

02:21:32   '83?

02:21:33   Well—

02:21:34   I'd say '85, when we were like, "How powerful is Luke Skywalker?"

02:21:37   Eh.

02:21:38   About that powerful.

02:21:39   I mean—

02:21:40   And you assume he continues to grow after the movie, because he barely gets out of the

02:21:44   Death Star 2 by the skin on his teeth, right?

02:21:46   Right.

02:21:47   That's why I liked him in The Last Jedi, when he was like, "Yeah, I'm done with this.

02:21:50   This sucks."

02:21:51   But we can—yeah, different discussion.

02:21:54   Well, but I also enjoyed, though, that they spent more time, and him beating the darktroopers

02:22:00   was sort of handled quickly, and then they let it be more of a moment of, "Whoa, whoa,

02:22:07   but wait a second.

02:22:08   Now what?

02:22:09   He's just going away with Grogu, and that's it?

02:22:12   Grogu's gone?"

02:22:13   Because you know Luke is not going to be in the show every week, right?

02:22:19   It's like baby Grogu is gone, and we love baby Yoda.

02:22:23   The whole world loves baby Yoda.

02:22:24   Well, that's part of the—I feel like with season three of The Mandalorian, which is

02:22:28   actually going to be a little bit of a gap, the whole show doesn't have to be a baby Yoda.

02:22:32   I feel like that situation has been resolved up until the point where the Jedi temple burns

02:22:36   down and Luke totally blows it and training everybody, but that's a different trilogy.

02:22:39   Yeah, that's like ten years out.

02:22:40   That's a long way out.

02:22:41   But anyway, Grogu, it's not like he's going to be flying back to visit Grogu every time.

02:22:45   He doesn't need to.

02:22:46   Right, but it feels sad.

02:22:48   I was sad watching it.

02:22:50   I believe that The Mandalorian is sad to say goodbye.

02:22:53   I believe that Grogu was sad.

02:22:57   And it all felt true and earned, and it's like this is a total Star Wars success.

02:23:05   And I always come back to the word "comradery" as what I loved about the original trilogy,

02:23:11   what I loved most about Empire Strikes Back is that it really established the sort of

02:23:16   camaraderie between our heroes.

02:23:19   And you know, there's a legitimate camaraderie between The Mandalorian and Grogu, which is

02:23:24   amazing because The Mandalorian is a guy in a helmet who barely talks and Grogu doesn't

02:23:32   talk.

02:23:33   Right.

02:23:34   And Empire Strikes Back, Han Solo rides out into the cold to his death to save Luke Skywalker,

02:23:43   who I don't remember the last thing he said to him, but it was like, basically, "I'm out

02:23:49   of here, kid.

02:23:50   Like, I'm going to take my money and I'm leaving."

02:23:53   That's the last thing we saw him say.

02:23:57   One of the smart things Empire did was have a bunch of stuff happening off camera, which

02:24:02   they reference, to say, "Look, we've become a tight knit unit."

02:24:05   The Bounty Hunter, Orton Mandel, like all of that.

02:24:08   At the end of A New Hope, we were friends, we all hugged in the hangar, we all got medals

02:24:11   except for Chewie.

02:24:13   But then even since then, we've been on adventures together, so we are now tight.

02:24:16   So it doesn't, you know, like the, what do you call it, the Bounty Hunter we met on Orton

02:24:20   Mandel or whatever.

02:24:21   Like, there are adventures that happen between A New Hope and Empire, which lets you start

02:24:25   Empire with, "I'm going out there in the cold to save my friend."

02:24:29   Right.

02:24:30   Exactly.

02:24:31   And I'm not quite sure this show has done that yet, but...

02:24:35   But it's harder with Grogu.

02:24:36   He's a little kid, he's a baby, he's a baby Yoda, he's cute and everything, and the Mandalorian

02:24:41   felt for him because he himself was a foundling, you know, it's all, it all connects together

02:24:45   with the whole thing.

02:24:46   But he also recognizes, I don't, you know, this whole force, he doesn't even know what

02:24:50   the heck the force is.

02:24:51   He's just trying to do right by this kid.

02:24:53   He realizes that me raising this kid is probably not the best, especially since he's got this

02:24:58   gift which I can't help him develop in any way whatsoever, so he calls the Jedi and Luke

02:25:02   shows up, which seems like a best case scenario, but obviously he hasn't seen Seven, Eight,

02:25:06   and Nine.

02:25:07   Right, right.

02:25:08   That's where I'm going.

02:25:09   Baby Yoda does not seem to have a bright future.

02:25:12   Right?

02:25:13   I mean, maybe he dies in the Jedi temple or maybe, like his species, he's pretty wily

02:25:17   and he gets the hell out of there and he's just hanging out on a small planet somewhere.

02:25:20   I suspect that we discover that Luke finds him untrainable because he's too attached

02:25:31   to--

02:25:32   Well, the attachment thing.

02:25:33   I think they can be started on that.

02:25:34   Yeah, I know.

02:25:35   I know.

02:25:36   Here's the problem with Grogu.

02:25:39   I don't think there's ever going to be the budget available to do a Yoda TV series because

02:25:45   you can't make a character like Yoda emote and be amazing like they did in Empire, but

02:25:49   to do it on a TV budget, I don't think you can do that.

02:25:52   So I think Grogu--

02:25:53   I also don't think a character like that can hold a show.

02:25:56   I don't.

02:25:57   Even Baby Yoda.

02:25:58   I mean, they can, depending on how you do it.

02:25:59   They are the accents.

02:26:01   I think they're the accents on a story that our main protagonist is going through.

02:26:07   I think that that's the way those characters are going through.

02:26:10   I mean, you think about something like The Dark Crystal or even like the Hobbit movies,

02:26:13   you can have a diminutive, somewhat alien-looking character carry a franchise, but Baby Yoda

02:26:21   probably--

02:26:22   You really did win with The Dark Crystal.

02:26:23   But I mean, even then, did you watch the Netflix show?

02:26:27   Did you watch the Netflix show?

02:26:28   Because it didn't land as well.

02:26:31   We got to wrap it up.

02:26:32   I have two more questions.

02:26:34   Number one, specific to the special effects, what do we think about the special effects

02:26:38   to make Young Luke?

02:26:40   I thought it was great.

02:26:41   I was like, this is really pretty good.

02:26:44   You're renowned for your keen vision.

02:26:46   I'm back to 2020 in one eye.

02:26:54   You're right.

02:26:55   You probably actually have better vision than I do with my stupid glasses.

02:26:57   You'd be surprised.

02:26:59   I really-- was it perfect?

02:27:01   No, but it was good.

02:27:02   It was clearly of the same technique that they used to make Young Leia in Rogue One,

02:27:08   which I actually was OK with.

02:27:11   I thought that was fine.

02:27:13   I think I said when we were discussing this in one of the slacks that we're in, the way

02:27:17   they would do this when we were kids is they would get a young actor that looks sort of

02:27:19   like Luke.

02:27:21   We would know it's not Luke, and we would be like, that's what you do on TV.

02:27:26   These days, the thing that you do is what they did, which was computers.

02:27:29   You look at it, and does it look convincing?

02:27:31   No, but it's fine.

02:27:33   Look, you're just trying to tell a story.

02:27:36   The way I put it for a lot of this stuff is when you watch a play at a kid's school and

02:27:40   someone comes up with a big cardboard boat or something, it doesn't look like a real

02:27:44   boat.

02:27:45   But for the purposes of the story, you're like, I'm not going to spend the whole time

02:27:47   hanging up and like that cardboard boat doesn't look real.

02:27:49   Just enjoy the performance.

02:27:50   All they need to do is say, this is Luke, and amazingly with technology, we can make

02:27:56   him look actually pretty close to the real Luke and do this amazingly with the voice,

02:27:59   which I still don't know how they do, and just accept it as part of the story.

02:28:03   And I did, and it was fine.

02:28:04   Now again, can you build a series?

02:28:06   Can you build a young Luke franchise for that CGI Luke?

02:28:08   No, you absolutely cannot because the tech is not ready and it's super expensive and

02:28:11   hard to do.

02:28:13   But for the purposes of storytelling, I'm fine with it.

02:28:16   Just the same thing I was with the Rogue One and everything.

02:28:18   It's just, they're just not there.

02:28:19   But the thing is, you're never going to get there if you don't keep trying to do it.

02:28:22   So I always applaud the effort.

02:28:24   The voice was so good that it was like completely, completely, for me, 100% believable.

02:28:31   But then you immediately go to, this is terrifying because 10 years from now, they're going to

02:28:35   be able to make anybody sound like anybody.

02:28:38   I mean, you could already do that.

02:28:39   You ever use Descripts to do that with your own voice?

02:28:41   Yeah, Descripts is an awesome app, by the way.

02:28:44   That's like the janky version of it.

02:28:46   Honestly, I don't know how they did it.

02:28:48   I was hoping the gallery thing would tell me, because that's all I wanted to know.

02:28:51   I know how they did the CGI face because we all know how they did it in Rogue One and

02:28:55   everything.

02:28:56   But how do you do the voice?

02:28:57   Because you have choices.

02:28:58   You can have Mimic do the voice, you can have Mark Hamill do the voice and then modify it,

02:29:02   or you can manufacture the voice out of sound samples, which is what Descript does, only

02:29:07   in a jankier way.

02:29:09   But I don't know which one of those three things they did.

02:29:11   Well, just from comments that Hamill has made on Twitter, I believe he was involved in the

02:29:17   production.

02:29:18   Somehow I'm going to have to guess it was voice and maybe mocap.

02:29:23   I don't know.

02:29:24   I'm going to mocap that old guy for the young Luke thing.

02:29:27   Who knows?

02:29:28   Well, no, no, not for the fighting stuff, but for the "I'm hanging out with R2" speech,

02:29:34   the monologue.

02:29:35   Even the voice wasn't 100% convincing because when I listen to it, I'm like, "That's super

02:29:39   close," but not quite.

02:29:42   I don't know.

02:29:43   I loved it.

02:29:44   I thought it was a great twist.

02:29:45   I thought it was deserved, well-earned.

02:29:49   My last topic is—

02:29:50   Wait, wait.

02:29:51   Just one second.

02:29:52   I agree 100% with Syracuse that, yes, we should keep doing this.

02:29:58   I think that in the future, we're going to see, like in comic books and everything else,

02:30:04   presentations are going to change over time, and yet the characters are going to remain

02:30:10   the same.

02:30:11   We have the technology, more or less, to do that now, and I think we're going to see it

02:30:15   more often.

02:30:16   I think subsequent generations are just going to come to see, "Well, that Superman looked

02:30:21   like he should have had a mustache or just looked a little bit off."

02:30:24   Well, don't start with the Superman mustache.

02:30:26   We already did that.

02:30:28   Or Leia looked a little—and in the case of Leia and Vogue 1, I know there were some last

02:30:33   minute changes to that.

02:30:35   Or I've been told there were some last minute changes to that scene that changed the lighting

02:30:38   on it, that made it stand out a little bit more.

02:30:41   There are difficulties doing this, but if you've seen Ant-Man, it works pretty great.

02:30:48   There's a bunch of stuff that has done this technology.

02:30:52   Or Captain Marvel, they de-aged Sam Jackson.

02:30:57   Using this technology is just going to make it more and more effective.

02:31:00   And I think it's a viable and interesting way forward in terms of keeping these, essentially,

02:31:09   mythological characters alive and in representation of the people that first embodied them.

02:31:15   Do I think that's necessarily healthy as a culture?

02:31:18   No.

02:31:19   Especially since we are accustomed to and totally accept the other thing, which we saw

02:31:24   our whole life and even did it in solo.

02:31:26   You just get a different actor.

02:31:28   We accept it.

02:31:29   We're not freaking out.

02:31:30   Like, "That's not Young Harrison for--" We're fine.

02:31:32   People can handle it.

02:31:33   It happens all the time.

02:31:34   It does not detract from the storytelling in any way.

02:31:36   And it is way cheaper.

02:31:39   I agree.

02:31:40   And yet I admire the reach of trying through it.

02:31:44   I'm still waiting.

02:31:45   I paid to see Final Fantasy Spirits within.

02:31:47   I am all in on full CG photo-real people.

02:31:52   Absolutely.

02:31:53   100%.

02:31:54   Do it.

02:31:55   Let's get there.

02:31:56   Did you enjoy that movie?

02:31:57   Because I did not.

02:31:58   It's not going to go--

02:31:59   But I'm happy I paid to see it.

02:32:01   So I wanted to give them my money and say, "Yes, keep trying to do that because I think

02:32:06   that's a super cool thing that you can do."

02:32:11   What did you guys think of The Irishman and the aging effects in The Irishman?

02:32:16   I mean, that's-- no.

02:32:19   Again, I think it's a good thing to be able to do well because for certain stories, it's

02:32:24   super important to be able to do it well because if that's the thing you want to do.

02:32:29   But for The Irishman, it just felt like getting the band back together, but the band is all

02:32:33   sevening and you wish they weren't.

02:32:36   I love to feel the same way.

02:32:37   I think any trick done as a trick is worth pulling off.

02:32:44   I think Jimi Hendrix lighting his guitar on fire with lighter fluid and then playing with

02:32:51   his teeth, that's cool.

02:32:53   Maybe don't do a whole concert like that is kind of my feeling on that.

02:32:59   Do it where it's appropriate and where it's going to get a wow and a bang factor.

02:33:03   I think Rogue One tried to do that well, and I think certainly The Mandalorian season two

02:33:07   at the finale tried to do that well.

02:33:11   Don't hang your hat on that.

02:33:13   It's a trick.

02:33:15   Appreciate it like a trick and deploy it accordingly.

02:33:19   It wasn't good enough to be a full-length movie.

02:33:22   The effect wasn't good enough to build a whole movie on.

02:33:24   Again, you're not going to do it unless you keep trying.

02:33:26   And I think the story of The Irishman was good and certainly the talents involved were

02:33:30   good but I think you really need a young man's energy to play a young man.

02:33:35   And you can de-age De Niro all you want, but he's not that young man anymore.

02:33:38   And the particular scene where it stood out, everybody's talked about it, is the curb stomping

02:33:44   scene.

02:33:45   It's a 70-year-old body, right?

02:33:48   Right.

02:33:49   And that's budget.

02:33:52   You can de-age the body too, but now it gets even more expensive and troublesome.

02:33:55   And it's like, "Well, then why do we even have the real actor in there at that point?"

02:33:58   And it's like, "Yes, exactly.

02:33:59   Just get someone."

02:34:00   I mean, De Niro played a young Marlon Brando and it was fine.

02:34:03   Like it worked great.

02:34:04   We're okay with it.

02:34:06   Yeah, especially now that you make me think about it too much, one of his first starts

02:34:12   was playing a de-aged superstar.

02:34:14   Right.

02:34:15   And they don't even look that much alike at all, but we don't care because they're both

02:34:18   good actors.

02:34:19   They're both incredible actors and they're both handsome people, but holy cow, they do

02:34:24   not look like the same person even a little bit.

02:34:26   It was way cheaper to just get a young guy who looks like a young guy.

02:34:29   Right.

02:34:30   Well, and the other funny thing about that too is, okay, we never saw young Marlon Brando

02:34:36   as Vito Corleone, but everybody knows what young Marlon Brando looked like because he

02:34:42   was already from a very young age.

02:34:44   Yeah.

02:34:45   He was built like a brick shithouse and did not look anything like what we actually got

02:34:53   to see on screen.

02:34:54   But De Niro got to play the young Vito Corleone, which is not the young Marlon Brando.

02:35:00   Right.

02:35:01   They're both playing the same character and just because one comes first and one comes

02:35:04   second.

02:35:05   Yeah.

02:35:06   I totally bought him as young Vito.

02:35:08   I don't care if he looks like Marlon Brando.

02:35:09   Oh, totally.

02:35:10   100%.

02:35:11   I think maybe we're falling into the trap of going for visual similarity rather than

02:35:23   sort of like...

02:35:25   It's a cool thing you can do if you can do it and if you can do it convincingly.

02:35:29   And I think it will be a great tool to have in the tool chest, but right now that tool

02:35:34   falls short of alternate techniques.

02:35:35   So use it sparingly to just advance it.

02:35:39   And I mean, just think of it this way.

02:35:41   Think of fake backgrounds.

02:35:42   Think of a show like The Crown or whatever.

02:35:45   You could make a show like The Crown in the 70s and it would be fine.

02:35:48   Today we have tools in our tool belt that are so good that they're just a routine part

02:35:52   of doing stuff, which is like, "I'll put in Buckingham Palace behind there and nobody

02:35:55   will ever know."

02:35:56   And it works so perfectly that it's a non-issue.

02:35:59   When we get to that point, if we ever get to that point with de-aging, by all means

02:36:03   use it whenever the hell you want.

02:36:04   Right now, it's not at that level, so you have to really pick and choose because people

02:36:08   are going to notice and it is going to stand out and you have to balance that.

02:36:13   We want to keep practicing this and getting better at it so that we can get to the point

02:36:16   where it's not noticeable.

02:36:17   But right now it is, so let's factor that into our creative decisions and not build

02:36:21   a three-hour movie around it.

02:36:22   Can I tell you…

02:36:23   So one thing, Sir Keaton, that I was most interested to talk to you about tonight was

02:36:34   you had a definite perspective on the arc of Luke's character.

02:36:40   And I feel, and not to put words in your mouth, but I feel like you felt a little bit betrayed

02:36:46   by the last Jedi and his arc in that film.

02:36:53   How does the final episode of Mandalorian season two sort of fit into that?

02:36:59   You're going to throw that one out there when Jon's trying to close on the show?

02:37:02   What is your final point, Jon?

02:37:03   I'll let you get to that and then we'll see if we have time for me to address guys.

02:37:06   That's the most essential thing that we have to talk about.

02:37:09   It's not my fault you guys have been…

02:37:11   I just want to give Jon a chance.

02:37:12   He had one final point he wanted to make.

02:37:14   I just wanted to say, it's a complete aside, I just want to say my favorite special effect

02:37:20   of the entire two-season run of The Mandalorian was the IG, I think he's IG-11 droid.

02:37:27   IG-11, yeah.

02:37:29   And I think what made it work so perfectly, well, number one, it's just great effects

02:37:33   work, but number two, it's the fact that the original IG-88 character was made with

02:37:38   1981 technology where they built like, "Well, what can we make that looks like a credible

02:37:44   assassin droid?"

02:37:45   And it would look like this.

02:37:47   And the mechanics of the droid that they created to make a real world slightly…

02:37:54   I mean, IG-88 barely moves in Return of the… or Empire Strikes Back.

02:37:59   I think his head swivels and he's got those like…

02:38:02   But it becomes this thing that is completely able to be made completely realistically in

02:38:11   today's CGI and it's just… it's like, "Oh, that guy moves like a herky-jerky robot."

02:38:18   That's because he is a herky-jerky robot, right?

02:38:20   It was…

02:38:21   I loved that.

02:38:22   I thought it was so great.

02:38:24   I loved it.

02:38:26   And just today, or maybe yesterday, Boston Dynamics put out a little video of the robots

02:38:33   dancing and I'm like, "Eh, IG-11 is going to be so much fun."

02:38:40   Before we close, we could close on the Luke question.

02:38:42   My other topic before we close on that would be, what do we think of bringing Boba Fett

02:38:46   back?

02:38:47   Ooh, good one.

02:38:49   That was also my last…

02:38:52   That's my last thing.

02:38:53   There's a little bit of a De Niro effect in there that Boba's put on some weight.

02:38:56   The armor doesn't fit like it used to.

02:38:58   I dig it.

02:38:59   I kind of dig it.

02:39:00   But the thing is, you can lean into that, right?

02:39:03   Because we're not trying to de-age him.

02:39:04   We're saying, "This is Boba who's been digested slightly and he's put on some weight

02:39:09   and he's a little worse for wear, but he's still pretty cranky and if he's a little

02:39:15   heavier now and he's older, that's the character and so go with it."

02:39:18   And they did.

02:39:19   They talked about that in the gallery thing that they wanted to give Boba Fett a different

02:39:22   fighting style than the Mandalorian, and what they ended up giving him was a fighting style

02:39:26   that befits the actor who's playing him, which I think is great because there's no

02:39:29   established stuff in the universe in the existing canon of what Boba Fett's supposed to be

02:39:35   like after he escapes the Sarlacc, so guess what?

02:39:37   This is what he's like.

02:39:38   Now, can they build a series on that gruff, tough character?

02:39:42   I don't know.

02:39:43   We'll see.

02:39:44   They have to, especially since he's on the Jabba throne, or on the Bib Fortuna throne,

02:39:49   whatever the throne is called, that he takes over there.

02:39:53   I'm not sure what that series is going to be like.

02:39:55   He doesn't seem like the type of character that you could build a series around, but

02:39:59   look, I assume the people who have that franchise have a story in mind that they want to tell,

02:40:06   and my whole thing is if you have a story you want to tell in the universe, go for it,

02:40:10   and if you want to use this character, feel free because it's not like Boba Fett in

02:40:13   the original trilogy is so well established that you're hemmed in.

02:40:17   He's such a cipher.

02:40:18   You can honestly do whatever the hell you want.

02:40:19   Well, wait, he's forgetting that monologue where he describes everything that he loves

02:40:23   and being bought off one of those giant cows on Naboo, and he's just a really fully fleshed

02:40:32   out character.

02:40:33   I mean, the whole season should just be about him constantly reliving having his backpack

02:40:38   malfunction when he gets accidentally poked in the back by Han.

02:40:40   He's so embarrassed by that.

02:40:42   He's just constant nightmares and dreams about it and people teasing him in the street.

02:40:46   And then it burped, everybody, it burped!

02:40:49   It was just how his head is down and he's just walking.

02:40:52   To answer your question, Jon, I don't care.

02:40:58   I don't care.

02:40:59   I like the actor, I like the character.

02:41:02   When we were young and when Boba Fett went into that solo act pit, I felt a little ripped

02:41:12   off because I thought he was a great character and I wanted to see him do more kickass stuff.

02:41:16   I don't know if you guys have felt it yet, but we're old.

02:41:21   I don't need to see him crawl out of a cell like a pit and kick some ass.

02:41:25   I don't care.

02:41:26   I'm not really entirely sure where that story arc goes.

02:41:33   I was more invested, oddly, because I didn't like him in the first season, but Bill Burr's

02:41:39   character this season excited me more than Boba Fett.

02:41:44   I did like him cracking Stormtrooper helmets open.

02:41:48   That was cool.

02:41:49   I think it's the first time we've seen Stormtrooper armor shattered and fragmented.

02:41:53   We've seen it burned and we've seen it get bashed a lot but then bounce off, but this

02:41:57   is the first time we've actually seen it shatter like the plastic we know it is.

02:42:01   I was dying for that to be the episode where armor actually worked.

02:42:06   Like have a rock explode and have rocks bounce off of their armor.

02:42:09   Do something!

02:42:10   My family is asking about this too, and my in-universe explanation, which may or may

02:42:13   not be supported by the materials, is that we know the Empire cheaps out on its crap.

02:42:18   It's why there's no atmosphere in TIE Fighters.

02:42:20   It's not giving these people the best armor.

02:42:22   It's better than no armor in that maybe you'll take a couple rocks from an Ewok and not die,

02:42:28   but it's not going to stop a blaster.

02:42:30   You may get knocked out or knocked down, but you're out of the fight.

02:42:35   Maybe they cheaped out so much that it's just like "armor" and they just want these guys

02:42:40   to look terrifying.

02:42:41   If you wore it on a motorcycle, it would keep your skin from being scraped off by the asphalt.

02:42:45   It's more like motorcycle armor.

02:42:46   It's some protection.

02:42:49   If you punch it with a bare fist, you're going to be glad you've got that helmet on, but

02:42:52   if you have a big metal stick with a pointy thing at the end or a blaster, you get problems.

02:42:56   My only complaint is that we had a scene with Finn saying "you know what, that armor is

02:42:59   just so that we feel empowered so we can go kill people."

02:43:04   Like it doesn't... they 3D print this stuff off the line and it doesn't do anything.

02:43:09   It doesn't keep out chemicals, it keeps out smoke but not chemicals.

02:43:12   Wasn't that one of the lines in one of the movies?

02:43:15   Something like that.

02:43:16   That just doesn't make sense.

02:43:17   It's just like, "You know what, we wear the armor so that we feel scary and powerful."

02:43:22   Just say that.

02:43:23   And so they can't see we're all the same person.

02:43:25   Because at this point it's getting extra, extra stupid.

02:43:28   But should Bob and Fit have a show?

02:43:33   Sure.

02:43:34   Why not?

02:43:35   More people get employed.

02:43:36   That's awesome.

02:43:37   I think they've already said it's a limited run.

02:43:39   They're just going to do six episodes and that's it.

02:43:42   I could say go for it.

02:43:44   I like the idea that he's a fringe character and it's not one of... even though he's beloved,

02:43:50   like super beloved, it's a fringe character.

02:43:54   He's a guy with a helmet so there's no need for worrying about the aging thing.

02:44:00   I like that they hired the guy.

02:44:03   And sure, it does look like he...

02:44:05   Well, the original guy, Jeremy Bullock, died.

02:44:07   No, but they hired...

02:44:08   They're having the prequels now.

02:44:10   I know, I'm trying to shoehorn in and mention Jeremy Bullock.

02:44:14   That's all.

02:44:15   Right.

02:44:16   But it's alright.

02:44:19   There was the whole, "You never saw him without his helmet."

02:44:22   But if they took off Darth Vader's helmet back in Return of the Jedi, they could take

02:44:26   off anybody's helmet.

02:44:27   So I'm fine with it.

02:44:29   I think 10 years ago me would have been upset about it and I'm like, "Eh, let's see."

02:44:35   Cool.

02:44:36   I think that's it.

02:44:38   If you think you have a story to tell, go for it.

02:44:39   These characters aren't precious.

02:44:40   It's fine.

02:44:41   I like it.

02:44:42   I feel like he's in good hands.

02:44:43   I like it.

02:44:45   I like the idea that the first thing he did when he got his stuff back together is go

02:44:49   kill Bib Fortuna.

02:44:53   I love it.

02:44:54   I never liked that guy.

02:44:55   I love that Bib Fortuna is put on like 100 some odd pounds.

02:44:59   I don't have to...

02:45:01   You see him on that throne and the pounds just come on.

02:45:03   You just eat frog after frog.

02:45:05   Yeah, I kind of like that.

02:45:08   It's a sign of decadence.

02:45:11   Let's wrap up and revisit Guy's question about Luke's arc.

02:45:15   I think this is a pertinent question and I think it goes to the hardest of questions.

02:45:20   I think it's less pertinent than you think it is.

02:45:22   But just to review, my problem with...

02:45:24   John, you've been telling me that for like 30 years now.

02:45:27   My problem with Luke in The Last Jedi has almost nothing to do with what you see Luke

02:45:34   doing in present day in The Last Jedi, but everything to do with the flashback in which

02:45:38   we are led to believe that he seriously considered killing the son of his best friend Han Solo

02:45:43   because he sensed the dark side in him.

02:45:45   Nothing we had seen on screen up to that point or since took us from the Luke at the end

02:45:50   of Jedi to the Luke who would make that consideration.

02:45:54   Luke couldn't even consider fighting, let alone killing his own father who had blown

02:45:58   up entire planets.

02:46:01   And suddenly he's going to consider killing Han Solo's son because he's an innocent child

02:46:05   because he sort of senses the dark side in him a little because we know Luke is so afraid

02:46:09   of the dark side and if he ever meets anyone who has the dark side he will kill them immediately.

02:46:11   No, he won't.

02:46:12   He absolutely won't.

02:46:13   So that did not fit with his character.

02:46:15   Now, I'm not saying that can never happen, but you have to build the story pieces taking

02:46:20   me from the Luke at the end of Jedi to the Luke that considers killing his son.

02:46:23   I have no problem getting to the Luke who's bitter on the island.

02:46:27   That's super easy because you can just do that with like, "Well, I tried to train a

02:46:31   bunch of people.

02:46:32   It didn't work out.

02:46:33   I blew it.

02:46:34   I'm super sad about it.

02:46:35   Now I'm bitter on this island."

02:46:36   They told that story, but the "How did you get there?

02:46:38   Oh, I was thinking about killing Han's son."

02:46:40   Nope.

02:46:41   Luke would not do that and that is my giant objection.

02:46:44   Right.

02:46:45   So I think Luke on the island from Luke at return of the Jedi, you can do a linear interpolation

02:46:50   there, right?

02:46:51   Yeah, because you know the whole Jedi schooling thing didn't go well.

02:46:54   It totally screwed up.

02:46:55   He was super pissed and bitter about it and that's a thing you can imagine happening.

02:46:58   But in the mid-part you try to kill your nephew?

02:47:01   Yeah, but you know he's mostly a good-hearted person who feels bad.

02:47:05   Like Yoda in some respects.

02:47:06   Yoda sort of went off on his own and was a little eccentric in his little hidey-hole

02:47:11   on Dagobah and everything.

02:47:13   Right.

02:47:14   A little.

02:47:15   A little.

02:47:16   Yeah, but so did Obi-Wan and that's a little bit of my explanation for Luke in the last

02:47:20   Jedi.

02:47:21   So now everything you learned is from these two guys who just basically ran away and hid.

02:47:25   Now here's the thing.

02:47:29   Luke at the end of the Mandalorian season two is very much a deus ex machina, right?

02:47:38   He just comes in, he swoops in, he murders all of the bad robots and he takes the kid

02:47:43   and he books.

02:47:45   A little bit polite, but if anybody had argued with him you'd get the sense he was still

02:47:50   going to take that kid.

02:47:55   How does that fit into your interpretation of Luke between point A and point B?

02:47:59   So Luke's doing a star cameo in this.

02:48:01   So first of all it's the Luke from basically the end of Jedi.

02:48:03   He's wearing the same freaking outfit, right?

02:48:05   He looks the same.

02:48:06   Which is all lack, by the way.

02:48:09   I think we disagree on this.

02:48:10   I think Luke in Jedi was more Darkseid than I think you do.

02:48:16   Ultimately his whole battle was against being tempted to the Darkseid because he so wanted

02:48:21   to have a relationship with his father that he was willing to consider that, but no, I

02:48:25   have to resist the enemy.

02:48:26   We're not going to be back in the Jedi.

02:48:28   Ultimately he throws it aside, right?

02:48:30   But I think that it is inherent in his character that he's tempted to go that way, and I think

02:48:35   that this episode...

02:48:36   I mean he's not really tempted to go that way, it's just that he wants to save his friends

02:48:39   so much.

02:48:40   The Emperor is trying to turn his goodness against them.

02:48:42   It's not as if he ever considers being evil because that might be cool, but he really

02:48:45   wants to save his father and he really wants to save his friends, and also he's a young

02:48:49   hothead, he's a young man who's pissed off that your friend's out there on the moon.

02:48:53   Anyway, I don't want to talk about that.

02:48:55   Sure, sure, sure, but if those dark troopers hadn't been robots and they'd been people,

02:48:58   would there be any less dead?

02:49:00   Alright, so the Luke that comes up here, he got the phone call from Grogu.

02:49:06   This call went out, "Hey, I'm a little Jedi.

02:49:09   I'm just a baby Jedi with so much potential."

02:49:11   Oh, there's a reference nobody will get.

02:49:13   Nailed it.

02:49:14   You don't get this.

02:49:15   Stop laughing.

02:49:16   You do not get that reference.

02:49:17   I don't care.

02:49:18   It's funny that you think that there are people out there that would get that reference.

02:49:22   There are at least five people listening to this who understand what that's a reference

02:49:27   to.

02:49:28   So Luke is making a star cameo in the 70s TV show style.

02:49:31   Ooh, a big star is going to show up for one episode in, say, a couple of lines, right?

02:49:36   It's established that the whole arc is, "We've got to find something to do with this baby

02:49:39   Yoda.

02:49:40   I can't deal with him.

02:49:41   I need a Jedi."

02:49:42   Ahsoka says, "No, I'm too busy doing the Thrawn thing.

02:49:44   Maybe I'll make a phone call, see who answers."

02:49:47   Luke answers.

02:49:48   He's coming in and he's like a Jedi, a full-fledged Jedi.

02:49:54   What he's up against is a chicken man with the Darksaber who is not a Jedi by any stretch

02:50:01   of the imagination and isn't even really good with the Darksaber.

02:50:05   I love that you called him Chicken Man.

02:50:06   Plus, I mean, I guess he's in the boys, too.

02:50:12   Plus, a whole bunch of rank-and-file Empire people and then the robots, the big killer

02:50:22   robots.

02:50:23   Now, it's not like the robots just showed up to be cannon fodder for him.

02:50:25   The robots were established.

02:50:27   This was his big tool.

02:50:28   Like, "I've got these robots.

02:50:29   I've got some crappy troops and whatever.

02:50:33   They're not great.

02:50:34   I mean, the Empire is not what it used to be, first of all.

02:50:36   And second of all, they're never really good.

02:50:37   But I've got this tech, right?

02:50:39   And so that's my big thing.

02:50:40   And so I don't feel like they're set up there so Luke doesn't have to kill real people to

02:50:44   come in and get Grogu.

02:50:45   That's just what he's got.

02:50:48   And they're actually pretty tough if you're not a Jedi, right?

02:50:52   And so he flies in.

02:50:53   And they're not even on a real Star Destroyer.

02:50:55   What is it?

02:50:56   The light cruiser?

02:50:57   Whatever little thing?

02:51:01   No problem for him to show up, stroll in there fairly casually.

02:51:06   What threat?

02:51:07   Well, his lightsaber goes through them perfectly well, right?

02:51:11   Yeah.

02:51:12   And all they can do is shoot at them.

02:51:13   And we've seen Jedi destroy droids with shields and all kinds of stuff.

02:51:17   That's not a problem.

02:51:18   Now, the more complicated...

02:51:19   Anyway, I'll finish this up.

02:51:20   Yeah, the more complicated the droid is, the more the Jedi is going to do it.

02:51:23   No, I understand the more complicated thing in the Star Wars universe is how droids are

02:51:25   treated, which Solo touches upon.

02:51:27   Oh, yeah.

02:51:28   But anyway, the dark troopers seem to not even really be particularly sentient or particularly

02:51:33   smart.

02:51:34   So he strolls in.

02:51:35   He gets the baby Yoda.

02:51:36   He doesn't have to have a lot of lines.

02:51:38   He doesn't know these people.

02:51:40   We know what projects he's undertaking.

02:51:42   He is like, "We defeated the Empire.

02:51:43   Now I'm going to start up training Jedi again.

02:51:46   You go do that, Luke.

02:51:47   It's not going to turn out well, but you don't know that yet."

02:51:49   So he comes and he goes.

02:51:51   And his character...

02:51:52   He doesn't do anything out of character because he's coming in to rescue somebody, which is

02:51:56   a thing that Luke would do because he's a gooder.

02:51:59   And the fact that he answered is because he's Luke.

02:52:02   He always answers.

02:52:03   His friends are in danger.

02:52:04   He leaves and goes to Cloud City.

02:52:05   He's supposed to finish his training.

02:52:06   He's got to save his friends.

02:52:07   That's totally a Luke thing to do.

02:52:10   Killing the robots on the way in, no problem.

02:52:13   That's perfectly in keeping with the Jedi, Luke, as far as I'm concerned.

02:52:16   I like it because it's internally consistent where the argument is, "Well, why didn't Yoda

02:52:22   and Ben Kenobi know that baby Grogu was out there?"

02:52:27   Well, they didn't know.

02:52:28   They thought maybe he'd gotten killed.

02:52:29   They couldn't sense him.

02:52:31   The force isn't that sensitive.

02:52:33   They could keep track of Luke because they knew to keep track of Luke, but they didn't.

02:52:38   And then, "Why didn't Luke find baby Grogu earlier?"

02:52:42   Well, he didn't know either, but then there's this magic altar and baby Grogu has a religious

02:52:50   moment on it and it sends the bat signal up and Luke hears it.

02:52:54   I like it.

02:52:55   Yeah, I'm okay with that.

02:52:58   I think there is a... it's, I mean, for lack of a better terminology, it's like the Li

02:53:05   lions on the earth, right?

02:53:07   Like where there was like magic lions that intersect at a certain point.

02:53:10   You take them to this part of the galaxy, he's going to be able to talk to people.

02:53:14   Jedi can't talk to each other because the Sith have basically messed us all up seriously.

02:53:19   Even in the prequels, they're like, "Yeah, we can't see the future.

02:53:21   We don't know what's going on.

02:53:23   Things are bad."

02:53:25   So it makes sense to me for that.

02:53:29   I don't know how you felt, but when Luke took Grogu, I felt sad.

02:53:35   Yeah, I said that.

02:53:37   I felt really sad.

02:53:38   Yeah.

02:53:39   And that is the hero for my youth.

02:53:42   Yeah.

02:53:43   But it is a sad parting, but the whole Mandalorian's whole arc is like, if you were rooting for

02:53:50   the Mandalorian, just adopt baby Yoda.

02:53:51   He'll be your baby.

02:53:52   That's never going to happen because he can't give baby Yoda what baby Yoda needs.

02:53:56   Like the thing that he needs to do if baby Yoda is to fulfill his potential is to give

02:54:00   him to someone who understands his force crap.

02:54:03   And it's going to be sad when you leave him, but that's what's best for the baby.

02:54:06   So he's doing what's best.

02:54:07   I agree with you, and I think season three is going to reverse that decision.

02:54:13   I don't know.

02:54:14   I mean, it depends on how...

02:54:15   I think it would be a wise choice to...

02:54:17   Because again, we know what happens with Luke's training, it doesn't go well.

02:54:23   I don't think you can keep bringing it, cycling baby Yoda back in.

02:54:25   Like you can't put him in peril again in the rescue and then put him in peril and rescue

02:54:28   him.

02:54:29   No, I'm not...

02:54:30   I think he just goes off.

02:54:31   I think he goes off and just abandons Jedi stuff and hangs out with Mando.

02:54:35   Meanwhile, Bob Iger's watching the sales of baby Yoda related merch at them.

02:54:39   Right.

02:54:40   And he's picking up the phone call.

02:54:42   He's like, "Look, you guys..."

02:54:43   "Can we get that baby Yoda back in?

02:54:44   The kid stays in the picture."

02:54:46   "Get me some Jon Favreau baby."

02:54:48   "Hey, you can do what you want to do, but you got to get me some baby Yoda."

02:54:52   "Yeah, we'll get Grover Chom and Oliver Loyce."

02:54:55   Do you know what I love about that phone call?

02:54:58   Is that Favreau is so much the goose that has laid so many golden eggs for that company.

02:55:04   Like he's basically created the MCU, and now he's rebooted Star Wars.

02:55:09   He's a made man.

02:55:10   He's got to be a made man.

02:55:11   And it's like, "Okay, so Jon, I hear you're writing off baby Yoda."

02:55:17   "I love the way you..."

02:55:18   "That's cool.

02:55:19   That's really cool.

02:55:20   I love it.

02:55:21   Anything you want, buddy."

02:55:22   And meanwhile, he's already launched this successfully with this blockbuster hit show,

02:55:26   launched the single most important thing Disney has done strategically in the whole internet

02:55:31   era, which is this Disney Plus, and made it a must subscribe thing.

02:55:35   And it's like, he's already done his thing, but it's like, you can't take your foot off

02:55:39   the gas pedal on the baby Yoda toys and pajamas.

02:55:42   I know.

02:55:43   I love that conversation.

02:55:44   I think it'd make a Jedi Babies animated series with just all the little younglings.

02:55:49   Have you guys ever seen The Chef Show?

02:55:50   I think it's on Netflix.

02:55:52   It's really good.

02:55:55   I know I've shared a link with you, Grover.

02:55:56   It's good.

02:55:57   It's really good.

02:55:58   It's just Favreau and his friends.

02:55:59   All I can say, I've got a three and a half year old niece, and all I can say is for that

02:56:04   demographic, you couldn't put baby Yoda on enough stuff.

02:56:09   I don't even know if kids use lunchboxes anymore.

02:56:12   You could just bring back lunchboxes, and if it's got Grogu on it, it's going to sell.

02:56:16   Everything.

02:56:17   The baby Yoda all the way down.

02:56:19   Anyway, I'm going to call that a spectacular.

02:56:24   That was great.

02:56:25   You guys, I appreciate your time so much.

02:56:29   This was a lot of fun for me.

02:56:30   It turned out as good as I could imagine.

02:56:32   Maybe a little longer, but what are we going to do?

02:56:35   What are you talking about, dude?

02:56:36   We're under three hours.

02:56:37   You're going to take out your pee break?

02:56:39   It'll be comfortably under three hours.

02:56:41   Yeah, it's not our fault.

02:56:43   We were here to work.

02:56:44   You phoned it in a little bit.

02:56:46   I couldn't be happier.

02:56:47   Honestly, overall, I don't love The Mandalorian.

02:56:53   I think there are a lot of people who like it more than I do, but it is more than good

02:56:58   enough for me to say, "Hey, this is a treat.

02:57:01   I really look forward to it every Friday.

02:57:04   Can't wait for season three.

02:57:05   I think they're doing a great job."

02:57:07   It makes me happy, basically, that Star Wars is in good hands.

02:57:12   I like it.

02:57:13   Me too.

02:57:14   It's not my Star Wars, but I don't make Star Wars.

02:57:16   I'm glad that somebody is making very good Star Wars stories.

02:57:19   Yeah, I will echo that.

02:57:22   I really, really enjoyed The Mandalorian, season two.

02:57:25   It's very different than season one.

02:57:28   I suspect and I hope that season three will be different.

02:57:32   I hope that some of these new shows pick up on sort of what the promise of The Mandalorian

02:57:37   season one was, which was a band of people that are not attached to Luke Skywalker at

02:57:45   some point or the greater gist of the universe.

02:57:49   Although I know there's a strong gravity well that will draw all of these stories together.

02:57:58   The other thing I want to say is happy birthday, John Siracusa.

02:58:01   We already did that three hours ago, but thank you.

02:58:06   I know.

02:58:07   It's three hours later, and we're getting there.

02:58:10   We're like an hour away.

02:58:12   So anyway.

02:58:13   All right.

02:58:14   Thank you, fellas.

02:58:15   Thanks to our sponsors, Squarespace and Field.

02:58:18   What else?

02:58:19   Siracusa, did you say good?

02:58:20   I don't think you got a final word.

02:58:22   I think I said plenty of words.

02:58:24   More Star Wars is good.

02:58:25   Really?

02:58:26   Are you telling me?

02:58:27   Are you telling me after all of these years of knowing you that you're tapping out and

02:58:31   you don't have any more words?

02:58:32   I don't have opening statements.

02:58:33   I don't usually have closing statements.

02:58:35   Star Wars is good.

02:58:36   Let's make more good Star Wars.

02:58:37   The end.

02:58:38   There we go.

02:58:39   My God.

02:58:40   Love this guy.

02:58:41   What show are you guys looking more forward to?

02:58:42   Boba Fett show, the Obi Wan show, or the Ahsoka Tinobee?

02:58:44   Obi Wan Kenobi.

02:58:45   He's my guy.

02:58:46   I don't know.

02:58:49   I would have said the Ahsoka show, but maybe Obi Wan.

02:58:54   I can't really decide.

02:58:55   Really, honestly, it depends on which show has better writing.

02:58:57   I love that there's so many shows that I can pick and choose favorites among them.

02:59:02   I just want to see who's got the best writing team.

02:59:07   For television, that's almost all that I care about because the effects are going to be

02:59:11   fine.

02:59:12   I know the actors can all act.

02:59:13   I think it will all be great.

02:59:15   Give me some good writing.

02:59:17   I think that's the key to The Mandalorian, honestly.

02:59:20   It's the best thing about it is that it's a well-written show.

02:59:23   I agree.

02:59:24   It's so good to see that they respected that and it didn't just figure out, "Hey, we'll

02:59:31   put some lasers in some spaceships and call it a show."

02:59:34   Well, speaking about Favreau, I think that guy could retire just on having pushed for

02:59:42   and made possible the volume that they used to film the stuff in.

02:59:48   That insight alone of being able to do this kind of stuff in camera with a virtual stage

02:59:54   is brilliant.

02:59:56   It's amazing.

02:59:57   It is a remarkable leap in filmmaking.

03:00:02   My hat's off to everybody involved in that.

03:00:04   It's really, really, really cool.

03:00:06   I think it unlocks all of these other shows because you couldn't shoot them on location.

03:00:11   It would cost far too much.

03:00:14   But now we've got, what, five, six shows within reason to create.

03:00:21   I think when things get cheaper to make, we often see a higher quality outcome because

03:00:32   you can take more risks.

03:00:35   Well said, guy.

03:00:36   All right.

03:00:37   Merry New Year to you all.

03:00:38   I'm going to call that a show.

03:00:40   [BLANK_AUDIO]