The Talk Show

67: The Floppy 2: The Zip Disk


00:00:00   Have you seen did you see the news that former Seattle Mariners shortstop Alex

00:00:07   Rodriguez is in trouble.

00:00:10   No trouble. That's yeah that's that's something that's some good spin that's

00:00:17   some good spin right there yeah who's he play for currently I believe he's

00:00:23   suspended yeah I heard that and and he's not happy about it no he's not do you

00:00:38   see one of the railroaded yeah well I didn't watch the 60 minutes thing did

00:00:45   you watch it I heard that it was pretty well and then I love the stomach for

00:00:48   that make a pretty good particularly this week the weirdest part about it and

00:00:53   maybe the part that again I always want to bring this up I try to put it in

00:00:56   terms that people who don't care about baseball might care about the gist is

00:00:59   this guy got suspended for taking performance enhancing drugs for the

00:01:04   entire season regular season is 162 games he got 162 game suspension and

00:01:09   that it includes the postseason just to make the point even if I think it's

00:01:14   pretty unlikely that if the Yankees made the postseason and guy had missed

00:01:18   all 162 games that they'd add them but just to make sure that there's no controversy about it

00:01:23   that the suspension explicitly includes that but it does not include spring training and Alex

00:01:30   Rodriguez has stated that he he plans to attend spring training and it's like the the the the

00:01:38   rules that govern major league baseball and the players association are such that you know if he's

00:01:43   He's under contract.

00:01:45   He wants to come to spring training.

00:01:49   He can come to spring training, which is going to be, needless to say, awkward.

00:01:57   And I follow a whole bunch of Yankees beat writers on Twitter, and they really had a

00:02:02   blast with it.

00:02:03   It was really funny.

00:02:04   They were imagining the questions they could ask Girardi.

00:02:10   he plays in spring training and has a good day like what what's the point you

00:02:15   know it's like you know you can't use him like it he's just he's taking up

00:02:19   yeah but they don't want to they can I mean they why wouldn't they change their

00:02:25   roster I mean they don't want to use a spot I don't know for someone was not

00:02:28   gonna someone who's not gonna play I really don't know what they're going to

00:02:31   do it's it's just seems you know it just seems like everything is set up for

00:02:37   someone to have the good taste not to show right except it's Alex right

00:02:43   exactly speaking of good luck with that speaking of good place I wonder if can

00:02:52   you play Venezuelan ball you know what people said that I don't know what their

00:02:57   rules are well I believe nobody's quite sure and I'm not even sure if things

00:03:04   like the like everybody knows how much money the players make in a contract

00:03:09   because there's you know it's part of the you know there's a salary cap type

00:03:15   thing where you get a penalty if you go over that's all public information I'm

00:03:18   not sure if all the details and clauses of each contract are public but it's

00:03:24   presumed that it's probably you know against his contract with the Yankees

00:03:28   that he can't play professional baseball elsewhere but as someone of the other

00:03:32   writers said well it's Alex Rodriguez you really think he's not going to you

00:03:36   know I don't know where I don't know where else they play in the same months

00:03:39   but you know go over and oh yeah that's well that's winter ball right maybe go

00:03:43   play in Japan you have to be playing already right I guess they're oh that

00:03:48   would be that would be pretty funny hey like somebody said they wouldn't pass it

00:03:52   put it past him to just play in that like a beer league softball league in

00:03:56   Miami yeah and just and they and they do switch back and forth between sometimes

00:04:02   switch back and forth between Japan and the US throughout the season, I think. Because when we

00:04:09   were in Japan back in 2000, my wife was writing for the newspaper. She wrote a couple of stories

00:04:14   about baseball in Japan because the Mariners were getting Kazuhiro Sasaki, it was the closer,

00:04:22   it was a terrific closer for us for a few years. And he had played for, I can't remember, the Hanchi?

00:04:29   No.

00:04:32   Blue Wave-- no, Oryx Blue Wave, that was Ichiro.

00:04:34   Anyway, he played for one of the local teams near Tokyo.

00:04:38   And so she went and interviewed some of the players

00:04:40   to talk about him.

00:04:41   And one of the guys she interviewed,

00:04:42   and I can't remember who it was, was an American guy.

00:04:46   And then when we went back home and were watching the playoffs

00:04:50   that year, Boston was in the playoffs that year.

00:04:52   And he was running around the bases like, that's that guy.

00:04:57   That's that guy you talked to.

00:04:59   So he played in Japan and then came and then I guess the Red Sox picked him up

00:05:04   probably in September.

00:05:08   So it's possible.

00:05:10   I don't know.

00:05:12   Very strange story.

00:05:14   Uh...

00:05:16   Speaking of strange stories,

00:05:20   what's I guess the big news? We're going to talk about news and take the show seriously. I guess

00:05:23   the big news this week is Google buying Nest.

00:05:27   That would be it.

00:05:29   Right.

00:05:29   Did you-- do you have a nest?

00:05:31   I do not.

00:05:33   I do not either, even though I kind of would want one.

00:05:35   Mine is decidedly old school.

00:05:38   Yeah.

00:05:40   Just, you know, seems like a good idea, but it just--

00:05:42   and I never really got around to it.

00:05:44   It's not something that I really care that much about.

00:05:46   Yeah.

00:05:47   Yeah, I kind of--

00:05:48   I work at home, so I'm never like driving home and hoping

00:05:52   to have the heat turned up.

00:05:54   Yep.

00:05:54   Yeah, more or less.

00:05:55   And I do kind of hate our thermostat UI, but--

00:05:59   Sure.

00:06:01   But like 363 days out of the year,

00:06:05   I really just want to hit up arrow, down arrow,

00:06:08   which works pretty well.

00:06:10   And the other two days is when it's

00:06:12   like, how do you switch it from sometimes turning on the heat,

00:06:17   sometimes turning off the heat, to sometimes turning

00:06:19   on the air, sometimes turning off the air?

00:06:21   And every time I have to do that, I get totally lost.

00:06:24   And I might be doing it wrong.

00:06:27   And then I think, I should buy a nest.

00:06:29   And then I figure it out.

00:06:30   And then six months later, I'm in the opposite.

00:06:33   It's not something I want to drop $250 on.

00:06:36   Yeah.

00:06:38   It's just not that important.

00:06:40   Even though it does seem beautiful.

00:06:42   Yeah.

00:06:43   It's wonderfully well-designed.

00:06:45   And it would be nice, but it's not what--

00:06:49   I've got other problems.

00:06:51   Many, many other problems.

00:06:53   And I've always thought it was a decidedly Apple-like approach,

00:06:58   not just because it's a bunch of people like Tony

00:07:00   Fidel and a lot of the people he's hired who came from Apple,

00:07:03   and not just because it's visually attractive,

00:07:06   but because it has come into this market and simply--

00:07:13   it didn't just come in 10% better.

00:07:16   It came in and looks 20 years in the future

00:07:20   from everything else on the market.

00:07:22   And nobody had really-- people might

00:07:24   mutter under their breath for a while about thermostats,

00:07:26   but nobody really saw that coming.

00:07:28   Just an overwhelmingly better concept

00:07:31   for how the whole thing should be designed

00:07:33   and work, which to me is a very Apple-like approach.

00:07:36   I mean, to me, that's exactly like what the iPhone was

00:07:39   to the phone market.

00:07:40   Completely rethinking the problem.

00:07:42   Right.

00:07:43   It's what the iPod was to portable music players.

00:07:47   Completely rethinking the problem.

00:07:51   Screw this 10 songs in your pocket or a spinning CD

00:07:55   in your pocket.

00:07:56   Here's 1,000 songs in your pocket.

00:07:59   Right.

00:08:01   And you can--

00:08:01   I don't know.

00:08:02   I mean, it seems like it's a good buy for Google.

00:08:07   But it doesn't seem like Apple missed out

00:08:09   on anything particularly.

00:08:10   No, and the reports are--

00:08:12   and I trust the--

00:08:14   I think it was Kara Swisher.

00:08:15   I know it was at Recode.

00:08:17   Do we say Recode or do we say re-slash code?

00:08:20   Recode.

00:08:21   Re-code.

00:08:22   I'm not saying re/code.

00:08:23   You know what, though?

00:08:25   Maybe this is the first time--

00:08:26   Somebody said that?

00:08:27   I don't know.

00:08:28   But it's the first time I think I've mentioned it on the show.

00:08:32   But I thought about it when the name was announced.

00:08:34   This is the former team of all things D is now re/code.

00:08:40   Re-code.

00:08:42   Is that to me, maybe I watch too many police dramas on TV

00:08:48   and movies like that.

00:08:48   It sounds to me like you know like they're trying to get these guys on the Rico statutes right now. We recode them

00:08:54   We'll get him on a Rico. You know isn't that what they how they lined up all the criminals in the last Batman movie

00:09:00   You know I think my wife who is an attorney

00:09:05   Immediately like she anytime anything like that ever happens. I turn to her and she gives me either the yeah, right

00:09:11   she'll give me either the

00:09:13   Not bad, or she'll give me the eye roll which is no no you know

00:09:18   Which is funny because when it's something like that legally comes up in a movie or TV show,

00:09:24   I will look to her and say, "Is this right? Is this even in the ballpark?" And she'll give me

00:09:29   like a... The look on her face will tell me. But whenever it's a computer related thing and I want

00:09:35   to... I want to...

00:09:37   Not interested.

00:09:38   No, she's like, "Shut up." She has no interest in the plausibility...

00:09:43   Shut up, nerd.

00:09:43   In the plausibility of their of their

00:09:46   Computer related plot points

00:09:50   Happy to accept everything that Sandra Bullock says

00:09:54   It was like the floppy network the floppy floppy was called the floppy

00:10:05   The Mac - the Mac - VX whatever the zip disk

00:10:11   It's just floppy to the zip

00:10:15   That's a nice product placement on that one that would have been a great movie

00:10:22   Anyway Kara Swisher at recode

00:10:26   I think was Kara Swisher but somebody at recode reported that Apple wasn't even really a serious bitter that nobody was you know

00:10:31   That when it came down to it, I guess, you know as often happens with these acquisitions

00:10:36   they were going for a second round of VC funding at a higher valuation and

00:10:40   you know rather than take another round of funding Google is like look we'll just we'll just buy you up

00:10:44   For 3.2 billion dollars which I believe is

00:10:51   You know, you know, it's like it's all relative and it's you know, it's like well

00:10:56   That's not that much because they spent 12 billion on Motorola

00:11:00   But it's actually the second biggest acquisition Google's ever made. It was I think overture the ad company

00:11:08   I might be getting the name of the ad company wrong, but I don't know four or five years ago

00:11:13   They bought an ad company for three and three billion dollars

00:11:15   and

00:11:17   So it is a pretty big deal

00:11:19   You know if it's the second biggest ever and and the when they bought the ad company it was so clear

00:11:25   Why they were doing it because how does Google make 97% of their money by ads online ads?

00:11:30   So, of course, they're gonna buy other ad companies

00:11:33   Whereas the Motorola thing is a little bit more, you know, why exactly would they spend 12 billion dollars on this?

00:11:39   What were they thinking and?

00:11:42   With nest I think it's you know, it is not quite clear why

00:11:47   Everybody seemed to jump on it immediately or at least the people I tend to follow who are a little bit more Google

00:11:56   skeptical Google

00:11:59   cautious

00:12:02   You know immediately thought and I have to admit the thought jump to my head is do you want Google collecting?

00:12:08   You know, I mean and there's smoke detectors too and the smoke detectors have you know

00:12:14   I don't know who knows what kind of sensors and presumably they could eventually add cameras to these things

00:12:18   You know that Google it, you know

00:12:20   Well, I mean but even without it even as the product stand today

00:12:23   With some kind of integration that Google would be collecting and tying it to your you know their sense of your identity

00:12:29   sure

00:12:31   You know when you're home for example, they definitely you know

00:12:34   That's the whole point of nest is that nest knows when you're home and adjust the temperature accordingly

00:12:39   You know that you you save money and you know save energy by

00:12:44   Keeping the house, you know not running the air conditioner or heater so much when the house is empty

00:12:50   Do you want Google to know that what could they you know, how can they use that to further show you you know, the creepy ads?

00:12:59   And it's for sweaters. Yeah, so if I was in the market for one now, I would really seriously

00:13:15   think twice about it. Personally. I got a lot of email and Twitter replies and I think I tried to

00:13:22   be cautiously neutral in terms of the privacy aspects of it,

00:13:32   rather than jump to any conclusions.

00:13:35   I tried to do the opposite of fanning the flames of assuming

00:13:42   that Google is going to collect as much intruding data as they

00:13:46   can get out of these devices.

00:13:48   That's not what I did.

00:13:51   But even so, I got a lot of @ replies from people who either A) immediately said,

00:13:58   "I have a nest and now I really deeply regret it and I'm thinking about taking it out."

00:14:03   Yeah, I got a couple of replies like that too.

00:14:05   And B) people who said, "You know, I was really thinking about getting one of these and now no way."

00:14:09   Now, it is also the case that the sort of people who write me emails or have even heard of me

00:14:18   are not typical consumers.

00:14:19   Disinclined to be.

00:14:21   Well, they're not typical consumers in general.

00:14:23   And B, they're a little bit more on the--

00:14:28   as Google and Apple sort of forge a sort of rivalry,

00:14:33   they're clearly more likely to be on the Apple side.

00:14:36   And part of that--

00:14:37   It's also about business model.

00:14:38   It's not just about taking sides.

00:14:40   It's buying into a certain business model

00:14:42   where you buy something and it's yours with fewer ties.

00:14:47   And people may argue with that definition of the difference

00:14:52   between Google and Apple.

00:14:53   But when you're using Gmail, there are certain--

00:15:00   and you're sucked into Google+, and you're

00:15:03   sucked into all these other things,

00:15:04   and they're trying to get you to accept emails from Google+

00:15:09   users that you don't know.

00:15:11   All this stuff, there's a lot of extra baggage there,

00:15:15   is always been my concern with it.

00:15:17   So it's that business model.

00:15:19   It's nothing about Google itself.

00:15:22   - Let's come back to that.

00:15:23   I'm gonna take a break right here for a sponsor,

00:15:24   but let's come back to the business model angle,

00:15:26   'cause I feel like we could go long on that,

00:15:28   and I think it's a big part of the sort of divide.

00:15:31   Our first sponsor, I wanna talk to you

00:15:33   about our old friends, longtime sponsors of the show, Drobo.

00:15:37   Drobo, if you don't know.

00:15:42   - Oh, I do.

00:15:43   - Personal storage.

00:15:45   You buy it, you interchange physical hard drives

00:15:49   in this thing, and it just all,

00:15:51   the Drobo magically makes it appear

00:15:53   as a single unit of storage.

00:15:55   What do I mean?

00:15:58   So you could have a Drobo that has,

00:16:00   let's say, a six terabyte Drobo,

00:16:03   and it has three two terabyte drives in it.

00:16:06   It just looks like a six terabyte drive to your Mac.

00:16:10   And then if it starts to fill up,

00:16:12   What you can do is, at a certain point,

00:16:15   it'll give you these little warning lights.

00:16:17   You could just take one of those drives out, just pop it out.

00:16:20   Put like a 4 terabyte drive in to replace that one,

00:16:23   and it'll just make it all work.

00:16:25   It freaks me out every time.

00:16:27   Because in the old days--

00:16:29   In the old days, you couldn't even disconnect drives

00:16:31   when your computer was off.

00:16:32   Yeah, well, that's the thing.

00:16:33   It's the Finder.

00:16:33   I think the Finder has trained us to be so freaky about taking

00:16:37   drives out that--

00:16:39   Right.

00:16:39   And I did this just the other day,

00:16:41   because I took an old drive out of an iMac and put a new,

00:16:45   what is it, not hybrid drive in it

00:16:50   to speed it up a little bit, it's an old iMac.

00:16:52   And so I took the drive from the iMac

00:16:54   and put it in my Drobo.

00:16:55   And I've done it several times before,

00:16:57   but every time it just, I'm just like,

00:16:59   am I supposed to be doing this?

00:17:00   And every time it works.

00:17:02   - The Drobo simplifies storage so significantly.

00:17:06   It's just, it's like magic.

00:17:10   Now they have three models for Mac users.

00:17:12   They have the Drobo 5D.

00:17:14   It's a five drive system with Thunderbolt and USB 3.

00:17:18   They have the Drobo 5N, N is for network.

00:17:22   It's a five drive network storage system

00:17:25   that connects via gigabit ethernet.

00:17:27   And they have the Drobo Mini,

00:17:30   which is designed for portability.

00:17:32   It emphasizes size and weight,

00:17:38   which is available in four or five drive models

00:17:41   with your choice of interfaces, gigabit or ethernet.

00:17:44   Or gigabit ethernet, I'm sorry.

00:17:48   It's fast to set up Drobo, and after you've set it up,

00:17:53   you can just ignore it.

00:17:54   You don't have to do any kind of management

00:17:56   on a regular basis other than just look at the lights

00:17:58   to make sure it's not full.

00:18:00   You just plug in the drives, plug in the power,

00:18:02   connect to your Mac, and then you use the Drobo dashboard

00:18:04   to format it and off you go.

00:18:06   blue indicators show how full the Drobo is.

00:18:10   Each one represents 10%, so you just 10 of them,

00:18:13   and you don't wanna let it fill up.

00:18:15   If it's starting to get close, then you gotta think about

00:18:17   maybe either putting another drive in if you have

00:18:19   empty bays, or replacing a smaller one

00:18:21   with a bigger capacity drive.

00:18:23   It sounds too good to be true, and I know that the idea

00:18:30   of just pulling a drive out of a thing,

00:18:34   it actually makes my heart hurt a little bit.

00:18:36   But it works, I swear it works.

00:18:39   I've got the Drobo 5D here,

00:18:43   and it does exactly what they say on the tin.

00:18:46   So you can buy it.

00:18:47   Here's the ways that you can buy a Drobo.

00:18:51   You could buy, let's just say,

00:18:53   I'm not gonna read them all,

00:18:54   but there's different price points.

00:18:56   It's sort of like buying a computer.

00:18:57   If you wanna buy your own,

00:18:58   you know, like if you wanna buy your own RAM

00:18:59   for your computer, you can do that,

00:19:01   or you can buy it stocked with drives already.

00:19:04   And I think unlike buying RAM from Apple where they kind of charge you a premium, I think

00:19:08   the drive prices that they sell are pretty reasonable. But just for example, you could

00:19:12   buy a zero terabyte Drobo 5N. In other words, you're going to supply your own hard drives

00:19:19   for $549. You could get a 5D for $699. You could get--here's the biggest one, 20 terabytes.

00:19:26   That's five 4 terabyte drives, 1,500 bucks, and 1,700

00:19:31   for the 5D.

00:19:33   But that's a huge-- that's 20 terabytes of storage.

00:19:35   You could get a 6 terabyte.

00:19:36   There's a sort of middle of the road.

00:19:38   With three 2 terabyte drives, you'd

00:19:40   have two open slots that you could fill later.

00:19:42   Just plug a new drive in, and magically, the volume

00:19:46   will just appear to be bigger when you get full.

00:19:48   900 bucks.

00:19:50   Really, really good prices.

00:19:52   And it's just an amazing device.

00:19:55   So part of the magic of it is that it duplicates

00:20:02   the data across the drives that you have in the device, which

00:20:04   is how the magic of pulling one out

00:20:07   is that no one physical drive holds

00:20:10   any unique instance of a bit.

00:20:13   And then you put a new drive in, and it just sort of recopies,

00:20:16   propagates the data across it.

00:20:18   Can't emphasize enough how much it's a just works product.

00:20:22   They've been around for a couple years.

00:20:25   And I know a ton of people who are very happy Drobo users.

00:20:28   So check them out.

00:20:29   Here's where you go to find out more.

00:20:30   Go to www.drobostore.com and check it out.

00:20:38   Yeah, I've had mine for years now.

00:20:40   And it's just been chugging along.

00:20:43   Do you have all the base--

00:20:44   It's an investment.

00:20:45   Now I have all the base full.

00:20:46   So I'm--

00:20:48   It's one of those things that you bought it--

00:20:50   It's going to last me a little bit longer,

00:20:51   but it'll get to the point where I'm either

00:20:54   going to need to redo the drives,

00:20:56   because I'm just using terabyte drives.

00:20:58   So I could up the drive space.

00:21:02   But I have to reformat it because of the way I formatted

00:21:05   it in the first place, because I've maxed out.

00:21:07   Because I got it so long ago, I thought, oh, four terabytes,

00:21:10   I'm never going to--

00:21:12   you'll never go up to four terabytes.

00:21:13   No, never anymore than that.

00:21:15   Never anymore than 640 kilobytes.

00:21:19   So business models, I do, I almost think that this gets overlooked in writing about this growing divide.

00:21:31   Because like in the old days, when there, let's say the divide that you and I cared most about was sort of a Microsoft versus, you know, Wintel versus Mac sort of thing.

00:21:42   You know, there was a subtle divide where Apple was making most of its money by selling

00:21:50   hardware, but everybody more or less saw the rivalry as more about Mac versus Windows rather

00:21:56   than Mac versus or Apple versus Dell versus HP versus Compaq.

00:22:03   But everybody was in it to make money, you know, by people buying hardware and software.

00:22:11   So Microsoft's income from Windows and Office was people would buy a PC and the PC had Windows

00:22:17   preloaded and the OEM would kick some 15, 25, whatever dollars up to Microsoft for the

00:22:24   Windows version that was included and Intel got paid for the CPU that was in it. And it

00:22:30   was all more or less about people would make a purchase and the purchase price was higher

00:22:36   than the cost of goods and that difference was the profit for who made it. And so in

00:22:40   in fact there was still sort of the same, you know, it's sort of an old-fashioned, you

00:22:46   know, this is how commerce has always worked. Whereas with Apple and Google it is very different,

00:22:51   where Google is on this, we'll give you everything for free, for the most part. I mean obviously

00:22:56   like the Nexus devices aren't free.

00:23:01   They're significantly discounted.

00:23:03   Right, they are, you know, an unlocked Nexus 5 phone, which it's not exactly a spec for

00:23:09   spec equivalent to an iPhone. I think the iPhone is definitely in some regards, you

00:23:14   know, qualifies as a higher caliber device, but it's like $399 to start. Whereas an iPhone

00:23:20   is I think like $600 to start.

00:23:23   Something like that.

00:23:26   But for the most part where people see them as competing, it's, you know, they're giving

00:23:28   it away. And, you know, and it affects Google versus Microsoft too, where Microsoft is always,

00:23:35   know what hasn't traditionally made devices they just licensed the OS but

00:23:40   they do it for money whereas Google's Android you know is really disrupted

00:23:45   Windows by just saying here take it you know and you can either take it the way

00:23:51   we want you to take it with all of our services and stuff and we'll promote it

00:23:54   we'll give you the App Store or you know you could even do like what Amazon has

00:23:59   done and take take it as an open source thing and fork it and do your own

00:24:04   complete derivative of it and I think that it gets overlooked but there's

00:24:09   still there's still you have nothing is really free I mean I know it's one of

00:24:13   the oldest cliches in the world that there's no such thing as a free lunch

00:24:16   but you do pay eventually somehow and with Google services for the most part

00:24:21   you pay with your privacy you know that you get free email from Gmail but they

00:24:31   They don't just parse your email looking for spam.

00:24:34   They parse your email for everything and then show you ads related to it.

00:24:37   So if you're, I guess, I don't really use the Gmail interface much, but it seems like

00:24:43   if you're emailing somebody about buying a car, you start seeing ads for cars.

00:24:51   And obviously, a lot of people think that's a fine trade-off and they're willing to do

00:24:55   it, but it's a very different model.

00:24:57   Yeah.

00:24:58   I mean, I certainly don't have any problem with anybody

00:25:00   who prefers that, who prefers a lower cost option that's

00:25:04   ad-based.

00:25:05   That's fine, but it's not what I want from my experience.

00:25:09   Right.

00:25:12   Yeah, and I also think that there's--

00:25:14   I'm completely with you.

00:25:19   I mean, I think no surprise there.

00:25:20   I mean, I think it's anybody who follows my writing or the show

00:25:25   would not surprised by that, that I'd rather

00:25:27   pay for quality and just be, you know, have the transaction be done, then have some sort

00:25:33   of ambiguous data collection thing behind it. But I totally understand how other people

00:25:39   would see it that way. If you don't care that Google is, you know, doing that and you think

00:25:43   this is great, I'm saving all this money on software because I'm getting it all free from

00:25:47   Google, I totally understand that. I don't agree with it personally. I don't feel that

00:25:52   way, but I could see how somebody else would. But I feel like a lot of the people on the

00:25:55   other side think that the people who pay like to pay for stuff from Apple or from

00:26:00   you know other companies they somehow cannot wrap their heads around that and

00:26:06   think that you know it and then they know then start down the road of you

00:26:10   know the cult of Mac and you know and I think to me that's the biggest that's

00:26:15   the bigger problem but there's also the sort of Walmart effect that where

00:26:21   because I mean Google moves into these markets and then drives a bunch of

00:26:25   people out of business and and then reduces the number of options and then

00:26:32   maybe abandons it right and they've done before they've done in several cases

00:26:36   before Google Reader I think is right the example that would resonate with our

00:26:42   audience the best that they truly deaf I mean they came into the RSS market and

00:26:48   and just devastated it.

00:26:50   I mean, and if they had had their heart in Google Reader,

00:26:55   it would have been, I guess, for the better,

00:26:58   or at least for people who liked Google Reader,

00:27:00   that there would have been one vibrant RSS reader left.

00:27:05   But what they, they came in, put everyone else

00:27:10   out of business by doing everything for free,

00:27:13   and then they lost interest in it, and it just withered.

00:27:17   Mm-hmm. I mean at least it's coming back a little bit now, but it's

00:27:21   You know, we're sort of in this

00:27:24   Period of regrowth from something that was squashed, right?

00:27:30   So what do you think I what do you think Google was thinking when they bought nest?

00:27:35   Well, I think there's there's this

00:27:39   Buying I mean buying Tony Fadal is part of it

00:27:43   Right, that's what I think. I really yeah, and it wasn't just me trying to write a column. That was

00:27:48   Not about data collection, but I really do think especially for 3.2 billion which again

00:27:54   Not that much compared to Motorola

00:27:57   But it's a lot of money especially for a company that I think is only currently at like a hundred and some

00:28:02   million dollars in revenue a year

00:28:08   It it just seems to me like it has to be a bigger picture and I just I don't I've never met Tony Fidel

00:28:15   But I just get the feeling though that he's a lot more ambitious than that that it was never about thermostats and smoke. Yeah

00:28:21   And they were invested Google Ventures was invested in

00:28:26   Nest prior to this and somebody brought and I haven't read it yet, but there's somebody wrote a piece about how that worked about how

00:28:36   What that how that that transaction works out when Google adventures is an investor in something that they end up buying

00:28:44   Yeah, and more or less panzerino, maybe yeah

00:28:48   But it more or less it's not quite like three billion dollars because a lot of that three billion or at least a significant chunk

00:28:55   It was there was their own goes to Google Ventures. It's a little bit of your left hand

00:29:00   What's the phrase?

00:29:02   I don't know

00:29:05   Rob and Peter to pay Paul I don't eggplanting is that what I guess

00:29:09   So correlated to the nest thing well here I'll say this why do you think Apple wasn't interested

00:29:20   Well, they don't I don't think they need it to the tune of 3.2 million dollars, I mean they have product people and

00:29:28   I mean, there's no doubt that Tony Fidella is a great product guy

00:29:32   Google really needs a great product guy more than Apple needs a great product guy.

00:29:36   I agree on both parts. I think if they really wanted Tony Fidele, they would have kept him.

00:29:43   Yeah.

00:29:43   And... and... and... but my understanding though is that when Fidele left Apple,

00:29:47   it was not... it may not have been singing Kumbaya, you know, I think it was slightly

00:29:53   contentious. But I think in a very professional way, we're not... I shouldn't say professional,

00:29:58   that's not quite right. But not in a contentious way like with Scott Forstall. We're Forstall,

00:30:02   Yeah, he wasn't he wasn't forced out right forced all was like a Game of Thrones type thing, you know

00:30:07   Joffrey, you know, you know some

00:30:14   There's blood all that's unfair. That's unfair. I call anybody Joffrey. I

00:30:19   Didn't even think about that

00:30:22   But I think he I think he was taken by surprise is more what I think I don't I don't I don't think for stock saw

00:30:29   it coming and I think it was

00:30:31   uh he was more or less cleaved it was you know yeah whereas angwith fidel it was you know like

00:30:38   a handshake and uh you know uh you know good luck seriously who did who did you know i mean

00:30:44   there was a rumor that i had heard that he didn't get along with johnny jive johnny i've right yeah

00:30:51   i that comes from um leander connie's new book yeah which i haven't read yet i do i should that

00:30:59   That is really, it really seems almost professionally negligent that I haven't.

00:31:03   But I haven't read that yet.

00:31:05   So I don't know, that might be true, I don't know.

00:31:09   It could be, I don't know.

00:31:15   >> Yeah, yeah.

00:31:17   >> I always thought it was a little bit more with forestall.

00:31:24   Even though forestall, by all accounts that I've ever heard,

00:31:28   really had nothing to do with the design of iPhone hardware.

00:31:33   But until he was ousted, he was the undisputed leader

00:31:39   of iOS software, other than Steve Jobs.

00:31:44   And that it all stemmed back from the early days of how

00:31:47   are they going to-- when they committed to build a phone,

00:31:50   were they going to use OS X and strip it down,

00:31:53   or were they going to use the iPhone OS

00:31:56   and sort of build it up?

00:31:57   that Tony Fidel and an iPod iPod OS or something like it some other thing like

00:32:04   a sort of an embedded systems type thing like based on Linux and build that up as

00:32:09   like a whole new thing and so basically yeah so basically the new wave of iPods

00:32:14   would be based on iPhones I well but but also I mean but Fidel was in charge of

00:32:20   iPods right and it was probably clearly becoming becoming clear that

00:32:27   that that division would be less important in the future

00:32:31   and would also probably be pushed into using software

00:32:35   that was under forestalls control.

00:32:38   - Well, they were, right.

00:32:39   Like in the first iPod touch and to my understanding,

00:32:43   I don't even know if there is such a division anymore

00:32:45   because I mean, who knows what's going on

00:32:47   with non-iPod touch iPods.

00:32:50   But like the original iPod touch,

00:32:53   which came out three months after the iPhone

00:32:56   was built by the same people who did the iPhone.

00:32:59   I mean, clearly software-wise it was.

00:33:01   I mean, I think the only difference was that

00:33:03   it had, instead of having an, like,

00:33:06   remember the iPhone for a couple of years

00:33:08   had an app called iPod.

00:33:10   - Right. - And on the iPod,

00:33:12   it had two apps, music and video.

00:33:15   But I mean, other than that, it was the exact same software.

00:33:18   So I always thought that that was my understanding.

00:33:20   Somewhat informed, I don't have any direct source,

00:33:23   no secret, you know, high level source who absolutely positively confirmed it.

00:33:29   But when I wrote about it, nobody--usually what happens if I take an informed guess and

00:33:33   I'm wrong, somebody will correct me off the record and then I'll try to correct it publicly.

00:33:38   But like the story I've heard and told and was never corrected on was more or less--Fidel

00:33:45   and Steve Sockerman and a few others built, you know, were just, you know, it was like

00:33:49   two teams.

00:33:50   went to build an iPhone that was based on like a Linux embedded system thing sort of like

00:33:55   Not who knows what the interface would have been like

00:33:57   but effectively like more like what we knew of then as iPods and

00:34:02   Bertrand and surlay and

00:34:07   For stall engineering and design

00:34:11   Went off to let's take Mac OS X and build something new that could run on a phone size device

00:34:20   and you know that's the side that won and when they did you know that was

00:34:24   clearly the new a team at Apple and Fidel wasn't really part of it and like

00:34:28   the way I remember pretty much the way I phrased it on daring fireball was that

00:34:31   you know the iPhone is clearly the new a team and Tony Fidel doesn't seem like a

00:34:36   B team guy and so I you know it wasn't like he was pushed out and it wasn't

00:34:41   contentious I think he just saw that he was no longer you know when he was

00:34:45   leading the iPod division he was odd you know the leader of the a team at Apple

00:34:50   And so he left, but I don't think it was contentious.

00:34:55   And I also think, and I think you mentioned the same thing, that if Apple wanted to build

00:34:59   a smart thermostat of their own, they could, but they don't need to buy someone to do it.

00:35:04   Right.

00:35:05   It doesn't seem like there's just, I mean, it wasn't as important for Apple to, I mean,

00:35:12   if they wanted to get into home automation, then yeah, I guess they could have bought

00:35:17   them but it seems like they could also just do the same thing for 3.2 million dollars

00:35:22   with stuff that they have lying around.

00:35:30   Which uh, well you know what I'll take a break. Let me take a break and we'll come back to

00:35:34   it. I want to come back to the Walter Isaacson thing.

00:35:43   Our next sponsor is app.io, app.io. Are you still using pictures and videos to market

00:35:52   your app? Are you not getting the downloads or exposure that your app deserves? Then why

00:35:59   don't you try a playable demo instead? At app.io, they enable your native iOS app to

00:36:07   playable in any browser. No plugins or downloads, just click and play instantly.

00:36:12   It's super easy, embeddable anywhere and takes less than 30 seconds to enable

00:36:18   your app. You can create a playable demo now at app.io. I checked this out for

00:36:25   Vesper. We don't use it. I can't say that we use it but it is absolutely on

00:36:31   our list of hmm maybe and it it really is what they say it gives you it's sort

00:36:38   of like watching a like when you when somebody puts like a screencast movie of

00:36:43   the app on the website except instead of just being a recorded movie of some

00:36:49   actions the things that are tappable or tappable the things that are scrollable

00:36:52   or scrollable kind of black magic I have to say I did I heard it and I was like

00:36:59   how can that be it doesn't really seem right but it works so where do you go to

00:37:10   find out more go to app a PP dot I owe www dot app dot IO and and check it out

00:37:19   and they have some great demos and you can see for yourself yeah I'm actually

00:37:23   I'm playing I'm playing a game on it right now I will emphasize to that it's

00:37:27   It's like you give them your native app and they turn it into this thing somehow.

00:37:31   It's not like some kind of goofy toolkit where you build your whole app out of, you know,

00:37:36   web page elements or something like that.

00:37:37   You don't have, you know, you start by building a regular app and then they turn it into the

00:37:42   demo.

00:37:43   It's not like a framework or something like that that you have to start with from scratch.

00:37:47   So if you're an app developer, you really should check it out just to satisfy your curiosity

00:37:51   at how the damn thing works.

00:37:53   It's really pretty interesting.

00:37:55   It's computer magic.

00:37:56   Dot app dot io.

00:37:58   Yeah, that's interesting.

00:38:00   What did I say we were gonna come back to?

00:38:06   Oh, Walter Isaacson.

00:38:07   So Isaacson, Steve Jobs' biographer,

00:38:10   God, what a terrible decision Jobs made picking this group.

00:38:13   'Cause now he's like,

00:38:14   everybody said before he wrote the book,

00:38:19   well, this guy's never really covered technology at all.

00:38:21   Doesn't seem to have any.

00:38:23   Now he's appearing on CNN talking here see ya right CNBC something like that now. He's an expert

00:38:29   Technology and innovation the I word man that innovation has got to be like

00:38:34   In the whole

00:38:37   Era since Steve Jobs died it this has got to be like the defining word of

00:38:43   Apple news coverage pro or con is you know this innovation everything is innovation

00:38:52   So he's on CNBC and what did he say?

00:38:55   Well a

00:38:59   Lot of crazy stuff

00:39:01   Basically even me basically saying that Google is now out out innovating Apple and that this

00:39:09   acquisition of nest is just another sign of that which I don't understand at all because

00:39:15   Buying somebody is not

00:39:17   innovating they haven't

00:39:20   Shipped anything based on that acquisition yet. Of course, they're pop, you know, I guess you could say that they're shipping nests

00:39:25   from Google

00:39:28   or will be as of the act when the acquisition is closed, but

00:39:31   There's no there's no new thing that's come out of this acquisition yet

00:39:36   And I think that's nothing that's innovative and the thing that gets me is that he compares it directly to

00:39:42   the iPhone

00:39:45   Finally hitting a mobile deal. Yeah, the China mobile network and China mobile is is not just like another

00:39:51   Carrier in China. It's the like

00:39:54   biggest by far

00:39:57   Mobile carrier in China and the iPhone hadn't been on it officially

00:40:00   I think the two things aren't really comparable

00:40:03   Well, they're not comparable. It's not the same thing. I mean one is a

00:40:08   As an acquisition one is a one is a distribution deal, right?

00:40:12   And it just seems to me like they just happen to be the two things related to the two companies that are in the news

00:40:19   This week like so in terms of the broad scope

00:40:23   You know big picture which company is more innovative than the other what what could be less relevant than just the two most recent

00:40:31   Bits of data that just happened to have come out the week that he's on the show

00:40:36   like it seems like the worst kind of

00:40:39   Trying to draw a cause and effect. Yeah, it could not be any more. It's so short-sighted like who's more innovative this week

00:40:51   This week in innovation including one of the companies which is notoriously

00:40:59   secretive yeah

00:41:02   The other one is open about everything right well not everything not everything but

00:41:06   likes to talk about what it's doing all the time.

00:41:09   I think anybody who would, you know, even somebody who would like to make the case

00:41:14   that Apple is incredibly more innovative than any other company, that

00:41:18   they're number one and that number two is so far behind they're not even worth

00:41:22   talking about. I don't even think that person would want to argue that the

00:41:26   iPhone hitting China Mobile is innovative. I mean, it's another

00:41:30   carrier. It happens to be a massively large carrier and but that nobody would

00:41:36   argue that that's innovative from a technology standpoint. It's just simply

00:41:39   a very large potential source of new iPhone users. It's just a business. It's a

00:41:45   business deal. Yeah. I mean I don't think anybody could argue otherwise. I mean

00:41:52   there's a bit of trickery involved where I think that the iPhones that they are

00:41:56   shipping to China Mobile are technically different SKUs because China Mobile uses

00:42:00   a bizarro they're sort of like the Verizon of China where they have like a

00:42:04   bizarro network spec network yeah and so the antenna is just tuned to a different

00:42:10   you know but that's but that's you know that's nothing for ya and then somewhere

00:42:16   inside Apple there's that there's an engineer on the antenna team who listens

00:42:19   to the talk show who's suddenly crying his eyes out because he probably had to

00:42:27   like solved Fermat's last theorem to get it working.

00:42:31   It was like the hardest thing anybody at Apple

00:42:34   has ever done and got like a gold medal from Tim Cook

00:42:37   and was told you can never tell anybody.

00:42:39   - Take this to your grave.

00:42:41   - And then Moulton Gruber just said, "Ah, don't be--"

00:42:43   - Yeah, screw that guy.

00:42:45   - Sorry, unnamed antenna engineer

00:42:53   who listens to the talk show.

00:42:56   Your work is very innovative.

00:42:57   We value your contribution.

00:43:01   And so here's the other thing I quoted.

00:43:04   This is a quote from Isaacson.

00:43:05   And I always want to be careful with things like this,

00:43:08   because it matters what he actually said

00:43:12   and how they phrase it.

00:43:13   So the headline that CNBC used is Google steals innovation

00:43:20   crowd from Apple colon Isaacson.

00:43:24   But I don't think, as far as I could tell,

00:43:26   he didn't say Google has stolen the innovation crowd.

00:43:29   That's the headline they've put on his spin.

00:43:31   He's definitely arguing that Google is more innovative,

00:43:34   but that phrase that they've stolen the crown

00:43:37   is them sensationalizing it.

00:43:39   But here is an actual quote.

00:43:41   "I think Steve Jobs would have wanted,

00:43:44   as the next disruptive thing,

00:43:46   to either have wearable-like watches or TV."

00:43:51   I mean, I shouldn't mock,

00:43:53   because I'm sure if you took the transcript of this show,

00:43:56   I say all sorts of things that I wouldn't write.

00:43:59   - Yeah. - But wearable like watches.

00:44:01   - Yes, it is really hard to do that.

00:44:05   - I think what he meant is wearable devices like watches,

00:44:09   not watches that might be wearable.

00:44:12   Oh, you can almost wear this watch.

00:44:15   It's really just an 11 inch.

00:44:20   - For some reason the band is only three inches long.

00:44:23   It's really just an 11 inch MacBook Air with a leather strap.

00:44:26   But it has a hardware keyboard.

00:44:30   Or an easy TV that you can walk into the room and say put on squawk box.

00:44:38   Squawk boxes in the show on CNBC that he was appearing on.

00:44:42   Dot dot dot or disrupt the digital camera industry or disrupt textbooks.

00:44:49   Now that's the part on my little post on during fireball that I hung on.

00:44:53   I actually don't know how the textbook thing is going with iPads. I think it was two years ago

00:44:58   Where they had the special textbook event in New York?

00:45:02   iPad or iPad author iOS boy. I hope that wasn't three years ago because if it was three years ago time is really fine by

00:45:09   Do you want to quick google that I thought it was two years ago, but

00:45:14   What's that thing I author what is that thing called I can't remember

00:45:21   God your keyboards louder than mine. I don't yeah, that's not it's not clicky. I

00:45:27   Books author

00:45:31   And I misspelled author January 2012 education event. So I'm correct two years ago

00:45:37   Didn't follow it up last year, you know, and that's a little unusual for Apple

00:45:41   It was sort of you know, it was like a one-off event. That was like nothing they've done before or since you know

00:45:47   It's just a sort of education event at a new location

00:45:50   And they didn't follow it up last year.

00:45:52   I don't know why.

00:45:53   I don't know.

00:45:54   I haven't heard anything about anything this year.

00:45:57   I don't know how that's going.

00:45:58   And I realize, just seeing him say that, I would be curious to hear from people in education.

00:46:06   [laughter]

00:46:08   They

00:46:10   They have a new guy watching them now

00:46:14   That's another thing we could talk about oh

00:46:18   We should have books the although that's not quite related to textbooks, but no I guess not right, but but anyway

00:46:26   I do think they're trying to disrupt textbooks

00:46:29   At the various but the other part about digital camera industry. I mean is he nuts have you gone to any sort of touristy type?

00:46:37   location any time recently and seen what people are doing

00:46:42   with their

00:46:44   iPhones and you know as I'm really trying to get over my aversion to it iPads as cameras I

00:46:51   mean it I

00:46:54   would argue that they've

00:46:56   Well, and maybe that's not quite fair, but I think it's very close that that

00:47:02   Seven years in the iPhone has disrupted the camera industry as much as it has the phone industry

00:47:08   I'm sure I just think I think a big part of it is that it's called the iPhone, but I've personally

00:47:15   You mean how much sense would it make for Apple to start making a digital camera right now?

00:47:20   None, although I kind of wish that they would but

00:47:24   way I

00:47:26   Kind of wish that they I wish they'd make a printer, but I would buy not for me

00:47:31   but for my wife I would buy a somewhat thicker iPhone that had a better camera and therefore I could

00:47:37   By making it thicker the lens could be a little bigger the sensor could be bigger and there'd be more distance from a little bit

00:47:43   more distance from the lens to the

00:47:45   sensor

00:47:47   But I completely understand why they don't want to do that

00:47:50   But I you know, there's no doubt for me that the vast majority of photos I take anymore even though I'm sort of enthusiastic amateur

00:48:00   camera guy are on my iPhone, but if you go anywhere just I mean like I

00:48:05   I was in

00:48:09   Penn Penn station

00:48:15   Grand Central station one way that has the Apple Store

00:48:18   in December and

00:48:20   I had a way to where I had to wait for a few minutes and I just was like walking

00:48:24   you know, it's a beautiful beautiful concourse and I just was just

00:48:27   looking at people just people watching and because it's such a beautiful concourse and it's a tourist

00:48:34   destination

00:48:36   You just people after people after people taking photos with their phones and all I could think is that you know

00:48:44   Ten years ago there'd be I would see almost no one taking pictures period

00:48:47   Because it's you know, people wouldn't have there. It's not like sure outside the Empire State Building

00:48:54   There have always been tourists with cameras taking pictures of the building

00:48:56   But now it's like people take pictures everywhere and they're doing it with their phone. I think it's one of the biggest

00:49:02   Disruptions ever. Mm-hmm

00:49:06   Here's a good way to put it if I had if the the phone on my iPhone broke

00:49:12   It's under warranty it's it's a new 5s

00:49:17   So I would take it to the Apple Store and get it fixed but I may not go today if the camera broke

00:49:21   I would go to that I would I would go today and yeah, I did that

00:49:25   I mean I had I had those I had like Dustin in my camera

00:49:30   I was getting these spots on my pictures to take it right take it right over

00:49:33   Yeah, one emergency because you know, you know, you might have a good picture to take tonight. Yeah

00:49:38   You know if I had to go away

00:49:41   For the next week and I had two iPhones both configured with all my stuff on him

00:49:47   And I had to choose one and one of them couldn't make phone calls and one of them couldn't take

00:49:52   photos. And now I'm saying literally the phone, the phone app that the, you know, the, the,

00:49:57   let's say that somehow the can't make phone calls but the data still works. I would take the one

00:50:03   that, you know, still had the working camera. It's way more of a camera to me than a phone.

00:50:08   I have a hard time of thinking these days about what Apple should do next, really. I think it's,

00:50:18   We used to have, it seemed to be easier five years ago,

00:50:22   or longer than that, like 10 years ago, I guess now.

00:50:25   I mean, the wearables thing, I guess,

00:50:28   but I have a hard time really wrapping my head around that.

00:50:32   It seems so much less concrete.

00:50:34   It just seems very ill-defined right now.

00:50:37   And then apart from that,

00:50:39   I just see too many problems with everything else.

00:50:42   I mean, the television doesn't make much sense.

00:50:46   So hopefully they got something.

00:50:50   Because I think there's something

00:50:52   to be said for the fact--

00:50:53   I mean, Nila Patel wrote a piece a few months ago now,

00:50:56   I think, back after the October conference call with analysts,

00:51:03   where they reported their results, where Tim Cook was

00:51:06   saying, again, we've got new things coming in the pipeline.

00:51:10   And Patel was pointing out that, OK, he's

00:51:13   been saying this for kind of a while now.

00:51:16   And I think there's something to that,

00:51:20   that we're kind of getting to the point where

00:51:22   it would kind of be nice if they introduced

00:51:25   something completely new.

00:51:28   I don't think they have to to do well.

00:51:31   But it's kind of to the point where we're

00:51:35   sort of expecting something.

00:51:37   I think Patel's column on that, it was kind of interesting.

00:51:41   I forget if I linked it or not.

00:51:42   There might have been something that made it.

00:51:47   I forget why.

00:51:48   Something disinclined me to link to it.

00:51:50   But it was not so much that they should have done something by now, which is the layman's

00:52:02   crude cudgel argument against Tim Cook, that it's already a failure because they haven't

00:52:07   already shipped something.

00:52:09   His argument was a little bit more about what Quick was saying.

00:52:14   Yeah, that what he says publicly, which is rare because it's not like he's on TV all

00:52:19   the time blabbing.

00:52:20   I mean, it's pretty much like going to all things D or I guess it's called the Re-code

00:52:26   now or whatever conference in June or May.

00:52:32   I kind of disagree, I guess, but somehow it does – I don't know.

00:52:36   like somehow Steve Jobs could do the same thing and it was a little bit more

00:52:40   death about it I get the feeling from watching him I think he's he's super

00:52:48   well prepared I think Tim Cook prepares for those things to a degree that a lazy

00:52:53   son of a bitch like me just can't even because I feel like he's he's a little

00:52:58   bit more like good like presidential candidate where he's prepared for every

00:53:05   possible question and has an answer ready and it's all very careful he's

00:53:10   clearly an extremely careful speaker I think it would be shocking if he ever

00:53:16   slipped up and said something you know that he regretted I think he's

00:53:21   incredibly prepared very articulate obviously very thoughtful but it's all

00:53:25   to me a little canned prepared like he's already prepared for all of these

00:53:30   questions. Whereas Steve Jobs, he was...

00:53:33   Much more off the cuff.

00:53:35   Yeah, he didn't do many interviews, but he... I think it, like all things, Steve, was

00:53:39   off and off the cuff. I think that like the famous trucks, cars analogy, I wouldn't be

00:53:45   surprised if he'd made that before. I don't think it was completely wholly new to his brain.

00:53:49   But I do think just watching the video, I forget, I just watched it a couple weeks ago again.

00:53:54   it was a little bit more off the cuff.

00:53:59   And I think he was a little bit--

00:54:00   I think his mind worked so fast that he was--

00:54:05   again, I would have been surprised if he'd

00:54:07   said anything he regretted insofar as hinting

00:54:10   at Apple's future play.

00:54:12   But he had a different-- just had

00:54:16   a different way of talking about the future than Tim Cook does.

00:54:19   And I can see that there's sort of a--

00:54:21   that Tim Cook is maybe teasing a little bit.

00:54:24   - Yeah.

00:54:26   - The thing that used to drive people nuts about Jobs

00:54:28   and that Tim Cook, to my knowledge, hasn't done yet

00:54:31   is Jobs had that, and everybody knew it.

00:54:34   I used to, I think it was so funny,

00:54:35   but he would just completely trash the entire category

00:54:40   as being beneath anybody's interests until they came up.

00:54:45   - Until they came up with something.

00:54:47   The video playing iPod is maybe the best example ever.

00:54:54   I think it came to a fever pitch the year that they shipped the one they called the

00:54:57   iPod Photo because it had a color screen.

00:55:00   You could sync photographs to it.

00:55:05   And then the press asked him, "Well, what about why not play video?"

00:55:08   He's like, "Nobody wants to watch TV shows or movies on a tiny little screen like this."

00:55:13   But then why, A, why would you want to look at photos?

00:55:16   (laughing)

00:55:19   Right, why would you want to look at photos?

00:55:21   And then B, they came out of the video playing iPod

00:55:26   with pretty much the same size screen a year later.

00:55:28   And he pulled it off, like I think that's the sort of thing

00:55:33   that always drove people who didn't like him nuts.

00:55:35   But he pulled it off like somehow it was very clear

00:55:38   in his head that he hadn't contradicted himself.

00:55:41   Like, he believed he hadn't contradicted himself.

00:55:44   And therefore, it kind of felt like he hadn't.

00:55:48   Yeah.

00:55:48   I think it would have been the same thing with the iPad Mini

00:55:51   if he had lived long enough, because he downplayed

00:55:55   that as well.

00:55:56   Well, that one in particular, though,

00:55:58   was he jumped on a conference call.

00:56:00   And it was when the first rival tablet started coming out

00:56:03   to the iPad.

00:56:04   Might have been-- must have been 2010.

00:56:06   So like, the iPad came out in February--

00:56:09   was announced in February.

00:56:10   have been later than that because I think the first rivals were full-sized.

00:56:14   I thought that... I don't think they came out with smaller ones until they

00:56:19   realized that they couldn't directly compete against the iPad. I thought it

00:56:22   was later in 2010 and Samsung came out with the first Galaxy Tab and it was

00:56:27   like an 8-inch tablet or yeah like 7.9 inch tablet and he trashed it as

00:56:34   having you know really small touch targets and stuff but if you look at the

00:56:39   actual words that he said he wasn't saying small tablets as a general

00:56:42   concept he was saying these small tablets the ones that are coming out

00:56:46   right now that we've seen from competitors are terrible devices and

00:56:51   they have small touch targets and they're too fiddly and it was all true

00:56:54   and they were huge duds I mean even by the standards where the iPad still

00:56:59   dominates tablet purchasing and consumption and usage today in 2014

00:57:04   I mean, the first ones, the first Android tablets just were terrible.

00:57:09   I remember going into a Verizon store to see the first Samsung one and it was really bad

00:57:14   because they had no...

00:57:15   I mean, the apps weren't written for tablets at all.

00:57:18   And that's why the stuff was...

00:57:19   It really was.

00:57:20   It was like really tiny.

00:57:21   Either the stuff was gigantic...

00:57:22   Just the phone size.

00:57:23   It was the phone size stuff blowing up.

00:57:26   There was really, really small stuff and it was really fiddly.

00:57:29   I think it's fair to say he might have been a little poo-pooing smaller tablets, but his

00:57:34   His scathing criticism was about the actual ones that were on the market.

00:57:39   But yeah, he could have just trashed them in general and said nobody would ever want

00:57:42   a tablet.

00:57:43   He could have.

00:57:44   He could have just said no one would ever want a tablet smaller than this iPad and then

00:57:48   proudly introduced the iPad.

00:57:50   And he would have had some kind of...

00:57:53   And slept like a baby.

00:57:54   And slept like a baby.

00:57:56   I love it.

00:57:58   All right.

00:57:59   sponsor, our good friends at the Omni Group, makers of productivity apps, including the

00:58:09   new OmniGraffle 6. OmniGraffle is a great way for beginners or professionals to work

00:58:16   on diagrams, layout pages for print, or create website and app mockups. It's for students,

00:58:25   engineers, whomever. Just go and have a look. OmniGraffle 6 is the easiest way to get your

00:58:31   information and ideas into a beautiful document to share. It's now available on both the Mac

00:58:37   App Store and Omni's own store. New features, you can mask images directly on the canvas,

00:58:43   no need to crop before you place the image. They have new fill and stroke styles for quick

00:58:49   and dirty mock-ups when you have a great new design to show off but you want it to look

00:58:53   as rough as possible to just sort of emphasize that it's a wireframe of rough

00:58:58   thing you don't want people focusing on the pixel level details it's easier to

00:59:03   share layer access it's just a click away the shared layer quote-unquote this

00:59:12   is from the talking points a enemy special stuff to make designing for

00:59:16   retina just plain enjoyable layers stay intact when exporting to Photoshop

00:59:21   thanks to help from Gus Mueller at Flying Meat.

00:59:25   That's the best thing about the indie. This is what makes the indie

00:59:29   software world, Mac software world great. Gus Mueller, genius

00:59:33   one-man show at Flying Meat, helped him out with

00:59:36   Photoshop layers, which is a...

00:59:40   if you ever talk to an engineer who's worked on trying to read PSD

00:59:44   documents, you're going to see an engineer who's

00:59:46   a drinker.

00:59:50   Where do you go to find out more?

00:59:52   Go to omni-group.com.

00:59:55   It's really, really just a fantastic app.

00:59:58   It's always been one of the flagships at Omni.

01:00:03   Really, really great, powerful stuff.

01:00:06   Back when I worked at the company,

01:00:09   I used to do all of our--

01:00:13   all that work, all the charting and graphing,

01:00:15   and stuff that I used to do in OmniGraffle,

01:00:18   because I couldn't--

01:00:19   But the company standard was Visio.

01:00:21   But I couldn't bear working in Visio.

01:00:23   So I would do it on my Mac in OmniGraffle

01:00:26   and then export it to Visio.

01:00:28   I might be misstating this history.

01:00:31   And if I am, I'll do a correction.

01:00:33   I'm sure somebody at Omni listens to the show.

01:00:36   My understanding was that the whole origins of OmniGraffle

01:00:39   was that Visio, which is a Windows only app--

01:00:41   and pretty good for a Windows app, but it's a Windows app.

01:00:45   But it became like a sort of de facto corporate standard,

01:00:49   because it filled this niche that Microsoft didn't have.

01:00:53   What Excel is to spreadsheets and Word is to word processing,

01:00:56   there wasn't an equivalent for diagramming and moving

01:01:02   graphical elements around on a canvas, that sort of thing.

01:01:06   And not like Illustrator, where it's clearly meant for artists,

01:01:13   more of a general purpose diagramming tool that a complete non-artist like John Moltz

01:01:18   or anybody else in business might use. And that the Omni group is like, "Wait, everybody's

01:01:22   asking for Visio for Mac. Why don't we just build something like that but make it actually

01:01:27   like good and like a..." Instead of like copying Visio, let's do it the Mac way. Let's do the

01:01:33   same thing and stick some sad story engineer with the job of reverse engineering the Visio

01:01:40   file format because that was the thing right that they could read and write

01:01:42   Visio files but that was like the whole idea the idea for the app was like

01:01:47   everybody says this app is great and they want them to build a Mac version

01:01:51   why don't we just kill them and you know kill the idea by building a true Mac

01:01:56   version which would be any they've done the same thing with project management

01:02:00   to because they have a they have a great project management app right same type

01:02:03   thing where instead of copying the the you know the windows style of

01:02:09   Microsoft project it's let's do the same thing. Let's solve the same problem, but do it Mac style, right?

01:02:15   Great people you can find out more at

01:02:19   Omni group calm

01:02:22   What were we talking about

01:02:27   Were we still talking about Isaac center? No, we're jobs. We're talking about jobs and Tim Cook and the promising and what's coming next. Yeah

01:02:36   Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how else you play it though, you know, and it is true and you know

01:02:40   I'm so glad that I

01:02:43   What I write about on a regular basis has nothing to do or doesn't have to be anything to do with

01:02:50   Speculation about what they're going to do as as we spend 30 minutes on the show speculating on what they might do

01:02:56   But that I don't need to you know, I don't know. I just feel like the rumor sites

01:03:00   I just feel like that's such a desperate dirty job

01:03:04   Large large iPad. Do you want to talk about large iPad?

01:03:06   In some sense though, I also feel like and I know that a lot of people have

01:03:17   Think it's sort of a joke because remember two years ago. I think Tim Cook said they were gonna double down on secrecy

01:03:23   And he seemed very sincere about it. I mean number one Tim Cook always seems sincere. He doesn't really seem like a

01:03:31   Like I said that seems like everything he says in public is very well considered and that the fact that he said that did not

01:03:36   Seem to me to be off the cuff, you know, he meant it and then things happen like, you know

01:03:41   the the gold iPhone case leaked and you know the the designs of the the

01:03:46   iPad mini and the new iPad air leaked

01:03:50   and

01:03:52   everybody says so much for doubling down on secrecy, but I think that that's really all about the

01:03:59   the large-scale ramp-up of

01:04:01   hardware production in Asia

01:04:04   That you wrote about you wrote about that before because you were noting that all those leaks seem to come from

01:04:12   Right and the stuff that they could keep secret like the design of iOS 7 they really more or less did

01:04:18   I mean there were rumors that it was going quote unquote flat and I think Mark Gurman at 9 to 5 Mac had

01:04:23   Some like really blurry

01:04:26   Screenshots like two days before it was announced but for the most part when they unveiled that video at WWDC in June

01:04:32   That was a surprise

01:04:34   I mean it was a really serious surprise as what exactly it looked like and how radical the the visual overhaul was

01:04:41   And I think let's face it

01:04:45   I mean, I don't is there anybody who believes Apple isn't working on at least a few major new initiatives

01:04:51   Well, nobody knows what they are. I mean, it seems to me like the doubling down on secrecy worked

01:04:55   that it's true. Seems like Walter Eise thinks maybe they aren't. Yeah I

01:05:01   guess so. I don't know. One thing about this little Nest thing is that I think

01:05:07   it spared us from a week of overwrought analysis on that new Apple ad. Mmm. The

01:05:15   what was it called? Yourverse. Yourverse. Yeah. What do you think? That's the one

01:05:20   that I liked it. I liked it a lot. This is the ad where they show footage of real

01:05:24   real iPad users from around the world. Other than the fact that it

01:05:29   promotes taking photos with your iPad and I liked it. I think that

01:05:34   I'm telling you I think that ship has sailed I think we've all got to

01:05:38   get on board with it. The iPad is a camera. People love using it as a camera.

01:05:43   I think Apple's got to get... Which is funny I mean it's one of those

01:05:48   things where we sort of nerdy pedantic people don't you know we don't want to

01:05:53   see that. It's like seeing the refrigerator repairman's butt crack.

01:06:01   Does it bother you less when people are using the iPad mini as a camera? Sure. It

01:06:06   does. I think the iPad mini... I do. It's all about size. I think that in terms of

01:06:14   software, clearly the iPad mini deserves and should run a slightly shrunk version

01:06:21   of the iPad software.

01:06:24   It should not be at this size, should not

01:06:26   be running blown up iPhones.

01:06:29   But when you're holding it in front of your face

01:06:31   to take a picture, to me-- and maybe I'm just getting more

01:06:33   and more used to it, but when I see people using an iPad

01:06:36   Mini as a camera, to me it looks more

01:06:38   like they're holding a big ass phone in front of their face.

01:06:40   It looks a little weird, but it doesn't look goofy.

01:06:44   When you're holding a full sized tablet, to me you look goofy.

01:06:48   And for some reason too, and I don't know why this is,

01:06:51   With the full-size tablets, I see way more people

01:06:54   who have the cover or the case flapped down,

01:06:58   which effectively doubles the size of the rectangle

01:07:03   with which they're blocking their actual view of everything.

01:07:07   And I don't see that as much with the Mini.

01:07:09   I don't know why that is.

01:07:10   I don't know.

01:07:11   But you can see, I mean, you can see more

01:07:14   of what you're taking a picture of on the screen.

01:07:16   I'll tell you what, I--

01:07:18   You can see it better.

01:07:20   I see so many people taking pictures with the iPads that I really think that Apple should

01:07:25   if they can, and I think it's a cost thing, not an engineering thing, but they should

01:07:32   get the iPad hardware onto the same camera train as the iPhone 5s.

01:07:40   In other words, instead of using last year's iPhone camera, they should get the iPads on

01:07:47   the top of the line camera.

01:07:49   And I suspect the reason is cost because iPhones have a higher profit margin because of the

01:07:54   way that they're sold with the subsidies that you know overwhelming majority of them are

01:07:59   sold through phone subsidies and therefore Apple can put higher you know that's why the

01:08:03   iPhone has the touch sensor and iPads don't that it can they can put more expensive stuff

01:08:08   in it.

01:08:10   But I think so many people use it as a camera that it's it's almost like Apple should feel

01:08:14   obligated to do it to help them take better photos because they're going to do it anyway.

01:08:20   And I've also heard from a lot of people whenever I bring this up, a lot of people have told

01:08:24   me that their family members, you know, in terms of why, why would you do this? Especially

01:08:29   like people who have a phone and if you have an iPhone and an iPad, you're taking worse

01:08:34   photos if you use your iPad. But I've had a lot of listeners of the show and readers

01:08:38   of the site who said that they, you know, family members they've brought this up to.

01:08:42   And the reason is that because the screen is bigger, the preview looks better because

01:08:48   it's bigger.

01:08:49   And so they think they're taking better photos.

01:08:50   Taking a better picture.

01:08:51   Because it looks better to them as they're framing it.

01:08:54   And so that's why when they go to the seashore and they're taking pictures of everybody on

01:08:59   the beach, they use the iPad because they think they're getting better pictures because

01:09:01   they see it bigger.

01:09:06   And so if people think, if somebody who owns an iPhone 5S and an iPad Air thinks their

01:09:11   iPad Air as a better camera. In theory, if they can make it work cost-wise, I really

01:09:16   think that Apple would do well to put the leading camera tech into the iPad.

01:09:23   The 28-inch iPad Pro.

01:09:31   Do you think they're working on a bigger iPad? That's a good question.

01:09:35   I don't know.

01:09:37   came out with a report like two weeks ago and I and MacRumors picked it up and

01:09:42   just echoed it and that the and it was an analyst who said you know they're

01:09:46   working on like a 12 inch or 11 or 12 inch iPad Pro aimed at the enterprise

01:09:52   and that is to me is crazy right because what I can see how when did they ever

01:09:59   come out with a product aimed at the enterprise right what's that how would

01:10:03   they even do it that would be like and it doesn't seem like that's you know I

01:10:07   mean what I don't understand why enterprise users would be crying out for

01:10:11   a larger iPad anyway no I don't understand I don't understand what what

01:10:17   they would think that why a bigger I you know to me if there's a one market that

01:10:21   you might want to target it would be like the sort of creative industry which

01:10:26   is more natural for Apple you know that people who are using it you know to edit

01:10:31   video in the field or to draw or something like that and all the people

01:10:37   using it as illustration you know I could see that as a pro market but I

01:10:42   don't see it I don't know I think even the name iPad Pro is is a non-starter

01:10:49   yeah the only thing I can think of and the last time I was at Mac world some

01:10:54   guy came up and asked me this after one of some one panel that I was on about

01:11:00   just for entertainment purposes, like sitting on the couch and watching a movie.

01:11:05   And we used to have part of our basement was finished and that's where we have our big

01:11:12   TV and we had water leakage so the whole thing's been ripped up for a long time now.

01:11:18   And so we've been relying on the TV that's in our living room, which is smaller.

01:11:23   And so actually when I sit on the couch, because it's so far away and it's smaller, my iPad

01:11:30   air on my lap is a bigger field of view than the TV. So I actually have resorted to mostly

01:11:38   watching stuff on the iPad instead of on the television. Unless, you know, if it's me and

01:11:45   the boy, he'll just like sit next to me often and we'll just watch something on the iPad.

01:11:50   Not always. We probably usually watch it on the TV because he'll sit down front. But I've

01:11:57   found that kind of nice in a way.

01:12:02   And I wonder if that's a different way to disrupt--

01:12:10   and I'm just saying this as I'm thinking it, really--

01:12:12   but to disrupt the television market is to go upscale,

01:12:16   rather than start at the top and try and--

01:12:20   you're never going to get a lot of action in that market

01:12:26   because those things turn over so infrequently.

01:12:29   I mean, when somebody buys a big screen TV,

01:12:30   they usually don't replace them that fast.

01:12:32   But if you have something that's on your lap

01:12:36   that you're using to watch entertainment,

01:12:40   and maybe that's more attractive to younger people,

01:12:43   I don't know.

01:12:44   - Hmm, it's a good question.

01:12:47   I did see one of the most interesting things I saw

01:12:49   in the CES coverage I saw was somebody linked to,

01:12:55   You know, it's just some off-brand,

01:12:56   and nobody you've heard of, some Asian company

01:12:58   with kiosk on the floor at CES,

01:13:02   where the sign had said TVs.

01:13:05   But what they were were Android tablets,

01:13:08   like no name Android tablets.

01:13:10   And I know Benedict Evans,

01:13:13   who's just been killing it the last few years

01:13:16   on analysis of that whole part of the industry,

01:13:21   has pointed out that a lot of the $150 tablets

01:13:26   that are sold, which are often sold in Asia to it,

01:13:31   people in Asia, not a big thing in the US yet,

01:13:34   but even when it is, it's really just being used

01:13:38   as a sort of touchscreen TV to watch YouTube

01:13:42   and any other video that you can get on there.

01:13:45   And that is a totally, and therefore,

01:13:50   Not that you can't compare it to iPads,

01:13:52   but that it's a very different,

01:13:55   you're selling the whole thing short

01:13:58   if you just call them all tablets and draw a percentage

01:14:01   and talk about market share

01:14:03   because it's such different use cases,

01:14:05   even though maybe when they're turned off,

01:14:07   they kind of look like similar devices.

01:14:11   And if you think about it, I remember it was growing up,

01:14:15   like when we were kids, portable TVs were always like,

01:14:19   I wanted it.

01:14:20   Oh, yeah.

01:14:21   And I remember I had a friend who had like a little three-inch diagonal TV in their kitchen.

01:14:28   And I think it was black and white.

01:14:30   And this really dates us.

01:14:32   I mean, I know that younger listeners of the show are really going to wonder just how old

01:14:35   we are.

01:14:36   But I mean, it got the TV signal with the antenna.

01:14:39   It wasn't even hooked up to cable.

01:14:43   But then they could watch like the local news and stuff in the kitchen.

01:14:47   And Sony eventually had a Watchman, right?

01:14:51   Right, I think so, yeah.

01:14:52   Yeah.

01:14:54   But it was like a little handheld television.

01:14:59   I think that probably, you know, like--

01:15:00   Like, it looked like the shape-- more like the shape

01:15:02   of a big iPod with, you know, big old disk drive iPod.

01:15:06   But, you know, we're talking-- you know, this is the '80s.

01:15:09   So we're talking about, like-- and not the wristwatch thing,

01:15:11   but like the one my friend had in the kitchen

01:15:13   was a glass picture tube.

01:15:15   I mean, it was a big device.

01:15:16   you had to put it on a counter.

01:15:17   You know, you couldn't put it on your lap.

01:15:20   And it is, like you said, in terms of field of view,

01:15:23   an iPad on your lap is not too small a screen.

01:15:28   No.

01:15:30   It's bigger.

01:15:31   And when you're on an airplane, it's a bigger field of view.

01:15:33   It's a bigger screen than any back of the seat screen

01:15:37   I've ever seen.

01:15:38   Not easily.

01:15:40   iPad screens way bigger than the TV screens

01:15:42   I've seen on most airplanes.

01:15:44   - I would think the Mini is even bigger.

01:15:46   - Yeah, the Mini is maybe roughly the same,

01:15:49   but possibly bigger.

01:15:50   I think they're usually like six, seven inches.

01:15:52   And always so dim and you know.

01:15:55   - Yeah, they're lousy screens.

01:15:57   - They're really lousy screens.

01:15:58   The colors are terrible, everything's all washed out.

01:16:01   Way better.

01:16:02   It's you know, and when you're, you know,

01:16:03   there's a perfect example where you're cramped

01:16:07   and you know, it's good that the iPad

01:16:09   is going to be close to your face.

01:16:11   You're gonna get a pretty decent field of view.

01:16:13   It's not bad.

01:16:14   don't like watching movies on a plane, but I love watching TV shows. Like to me, movies

01:16:19   usually, you know, deserves to be on a bigger, a real bigger screen, but TV shows, it's great.

01:16:26   Yeah. So anyway, yeah. Maybe that's the Apple TV.

01:16:32   I don't know. Could be. I don't know what else they would do. There's one thing with

01:16:36   any rumor of future sized iOS devices that I, every time I read a report about it, I

01:16:43   want to hear the explanation for is what is the pixel resolution going to be? Well, to

01:16:49   make it plausible. If you really know what you're talking about, if your source for this

01:16:53   story knows what they're talking about, they should be able to answer the question of what

01:16:58   is the pixel resolution going to be? Because Apple to date with every single device has

01:17:04   stuck to two effective screen sizes. The, well you know, and then they grew the

01:17:13   iPhone a little bit in a one direction. By changing the aspect ratio though, it's

01:17:20   still effectively the same pixel size, the virtual pixels, not the actual pixels.

01:17:25   When they went retina they just said every virtual pixel is now four pixels,

01:17:28   you know and the iPad is the same. So to me if they make a bigger iPhone for

01:17:34   example and I think Marco is a perfect explanation of this other people have

01:17:38   that they would just do the same thing they did with the iPad except instead of

01:17:42   shrinking it they would grow it and they would make an iPhone with the same

01:17:47   number of pixels as the iPhone 5s and iPhone 5 but that they would just be

01:17:53   264 pixels per inch instead of 323.

01:17:57   So effectively it would be the same pixel resolution

01:18:01   as the iPad Air and they would just cut

01:18:05   like a 4.6 inch screen out of it.

01:18:07   And then your apps would all just work

01:18:08   and developers wouldn't have to change anything.

01:18:10   Everything would just be a little bit bigger.

01:18:12   You'd be blowing it up.

01:18:13   And that makes total sense.

01:18:15   And it would also cause a conniption

01:18:17   with all of the people who read Gadget

01:18:22   and Gizmodo and The Verge,

01:18:23   because it wouldn't be 1080p, 1980 pixel.

01:18:28   They'd be like, this Android phone has more pixels.

01:18:32   But trust me, if the screen is good enough for the iPad Air,

01:18:37   it's good enough for an iPhone that's bigger.

01:18:40   But when people say that they're going

01:18:42   to make a six-inch iPhone, well, then I don't understand.

01:18:46   Because then it doesn't work.

01:18:48   Then it doesn't work out.

01:18:49   They'd have to come up.

01:18:50   And in theory, of course, it could

01:18:52   be that they'll say to developers, hey, now you have a new you got another one, you have

01:18:55   a new size to support you have to, you know, if you want your app to look right on this,

01:19:00   you've got to code and design for a new size. With a bigger iPad, I don't know how they

01:19:09   would do that, because they've already I think the iPad air is already running at the minimum

01:19:15   number of pixels prints that they could use to call it retina, that if they just just

01:19:21   blew it up by another two or three inches diagonally it wouldn't really it

01:19:24   would start to look a little bit non retina or they could make it bigger but

01:19:29   then say the developers now you have a new size to support but they haven't

01:19:33   done that to date you know when they went retina they didn't say you have a

01:19:37   new size to support they said you you're designing for the same size but now

01:19:40   everything should be you know twice the resolution mm-hmm so I just don't

01:19:45   understand what they would do for a bigger iPad like that

01:19:51   Yeah. And I think it also fits into the...

01:19:56   I don't want to say pipe dream. Because I could see that Apple maybe would do it someday.

01:20:01   But there's a contingent of people who desperately want Apple to complicate the

01:20:06   iOS UI by allowing you to say run two apps

01:20:11   side by side. And what I mean by that, that I'm hesitant to call it a pipe dream.

01:20:16   pipe dream because as the future goes on maybe that's inevitable you know as iOS

01:20:21   grows and needs and I certainly don't deny that at times it would be useful

01:20:25   and if the device actually had a bigger screen you know it might make sense of

01:20:29   but I'm just saying don't hold your breath because that would make it more

01:20:34   complicated there's no yeah I don't see that I don't see that as a priority

01:20:39   right doesn't seem like that's it certainly hasn't helped the surface that

01:20:43   much right and don't get confused starting to think about like what people

01:20:47   like us who have loved and and thrived using you know Macs and windows and

01:20:55   other you know dozens of windows overlapping and apps running at the same

01:21:00   time and command tab switching that that that we don't have any problems with

01:21:04   that level of complexity don't underestimate just how many people have

01:21:07   felt lost for decades using, you know, Windows and Mac computers. And the whole reason they

01:21:14   love their iPads is that tap an app, there it is full screen, tap the home button, go

01:21:20   back, now it's closed. And that's it.

01:21:23   And, I mean, there's also just a certain... Jason Snell wrote a piece about how he likes

01:21:31   writing on his iPad because it allows him to focus. So there's also just like an ability

01:21:38   to really be in one app at a time and actually focus on that app.

01:21:44   Yeah, I totally see that. And I think it's a lot more natural. I think, you know, because

01:21:49   it's what it was designed for. I think the single app view, whatever you call it, full

01:21:53   window view, full screen view on Mac, is weird. It's always weird. In every, almost every

01:21:59   app. The only apps where...

01:22:00   I thought I was going to use it a lot and I don't use it at all.

01:22:04   The only apps where it really works for me are apps like iPhoto or Lightroom or iMovie

01:22:13   or something like that where you're doing something where you would have been using

01:22:17   a window that was truly maximized like in the window sense where it's taking up as much

01:22:24   of the screen as possible anyway.

01:22:27   like for writing or web browsing or something like that and never do it.

01:22:32   Or watching a video obviously, but you know, you used to be able to go full screen before

01:22:36   there was an official full screen, you know, method.

01:22:42   My parents put their iMac into full screen mode a couple of weeks ago and it was the

01:22:47   most confusing phone call I've ever had.

01:22:52   It really was.

01:22:54   the annals of John Gruber helping out his parents with their Mac over the phone, it

01:22:59   was really, really baffling. And I do, I love my mom and dad dearly, but it really got to

01:23:05   the point where I was starting to get angry. Because what happened was, long story short,

01:23:08   is that they had been running an older iMac, and I think, and it was like on 10.58 or something

01:23:15   like that, so it didn't have the App Store. And because it didn't have the App Store,

01:23:18   there was no real easy way to get on the, maybe they were on 10.6, I forget. But they

01:23:24   were on the last version that didn't have the App Store. And then the new versions of

01:23:27   Mac OS X only came out on the App Store. And I know you can put it on a thumb drive and

01:23:32   do that, but it just never... They were happy. They were satisfied. Their computer was working

01:23:37   fine. And then the hard drive died and they needed to get a new Mac. And so I helped them

01:23:42   set up a new iMac. But now all of a sudden they're running Mavericks. And now they didn't

01:23:48   have full screen mode before. And I guess they clicked it by accident. But they didn't

01:23:52   they'd clicked it and all they wanted to know was how to how to how to close mail

01:24:00   and I said just click click that green button click that red button and there

01:24:05   is no more red button like there's gotta be a red button I was like what is above

01:24:10   the thing what's and they're like it doesn't say that and then I was like

01:24:14   well what's above what's below the Apple menu and they're like there is no Apple

01:24:18   I'm like, there's always an apple menu.

01:24:22   And it just didn't occur to me that they would accidentally

01:24:25   go into full screen mode.

01:24:27   I don't know why.

01:24:29   But somehow, the fact that they were telling me

01:24:31   that they didn't have an apple menu made me so angry.

01:24:35   And then I eventually figured out,

01:24:38   if you move your mouse all the way to the top right,

01:24:40   is there a blue set of two arrows?

01:24:43   And they're like, oh, yeah.

01:24:44   I was like, click that.

01:24:46   They were like, oh, thank you.

01:24:48   Thank you, John.

01:24:49   That was the best part.

01:24:50   The best part is they never grew irritated with my inability

01:24:54   to help them or my growing frustration.

01:24:58   But it just, to me, was an interesting thing,

01:25:00   because they also both have iPads now, and they love them,

01:25:03   and never, ever call me with any questions about their iPads.

01:25:08   And their iPad apps are always running in full screen mode.

01:25:11   But the way you get in and out with that simple hardware home

01:25:15   They don't even think about it. Whereas, you know, I think that this I think it was even called

01:25:21   This is part of the quote unquote back to the Mac

01:25:23   You know initiative is now we have iPad iOS style full-screen mode confused the hell out of them

01:25:29   Just didn't fit. I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna start trying it

01:25:35   I'm gonna put them all on full screen right now

01:25:38   Just see if I can live this way. I

01:25:42   Don't think I can

01:25:44   Because it doesn't the problem is it doesn't stick even so like if you switch to one that's not in full screen like

01:25:52   Yeah, I tweet but I don't think has a full screen. No, no, so I switched

01:25:57   Tweet but then it goes then everything goes back to

01:26:01   the window view

01:26:04   Yeah, it doesn't work no, it's I think long story short

01:26:08   sure it's really really hard to add something after the fact when you've

01:26:12   started. Oh except it looked like it didn't work in Safari but it did work in

01:26:18   mail. When you've started with a system design that the basic system design is

01:26:24   that you know apps open windows and windows are these draggable stackable

01:26:30   rectangles and you know which is you know it's a it's a metaphor that has

01:26:35   It's been useful for us for 25 years and growing,

01:26:42   30 years and growing.

01:26:43   Yeah, the Mac is 30 years old.

01:26:47   But it's complicated.

01:26:48   But then once that's your basic model, having it--

01:26:53   full screen mode just doesn't work with it.

01:26:56   And there's just too many apps that don't do it.

01:26:58   And in the same way, I don't think

01:26:59   iOS could support running some apps in little windows that

01:27:04   stay around on screen all the time.

01:27:06   I really don't think, you know,

01:27:08   you can't add Windows to a full screen OS

01:27:10   and I think the full screen mode on Mac shows

01:27:12   you can't really add it to a windowing OS.

01:27:16   I think the only people who use it are people

01:27:18   who are able to deal with complex,

01:27:21   like somehow it adds to the complexity

01:27:22   rather than reduces it.

01:27:24   - You said they have it on Windows

01:27:27   and for some reason, I mean, I think it worked there

01:27:30   'cause it had been in there for forever really, I think.

01:27:33   I think it had been in there since three Windows 3 anyway.

01:27:37   And that made sense, even though sometimes windows were smaller.

01:27:41   But they still showed the windows, right?

01:27:43   They just zoomed the window to take up the full screen.

01:27:47   And the same window--

01:27:49   You still got the menu bar and everything.

01:27:51   Yeah, the same buttons for closing the window

01:27:53   or whatever other options are in those things were still there.

01:27:56   They just grew it to fill everything on the screen.

01:27:59   It wasn't really a full screen mode.

01:28:01   it was a button you could click to say,

01:28:04   make this window zoom from every corner

01:28:07   to corner of the display.

01:28:09   - Yeah.

01:28:10   - You know, and one, some sense of people who like that,

01:28:13   and I know like back when a lot of people

01:28:15   were switching to the Mac, it was a, you know,

01:28:17   like a circa 2004, five, six, seven even,

01:28:22   it was a frequent complaint that when you hit the zoom button

01:28:25   - You couldn't have.

01:28:26   - Right, what they wanted was the zoom button on the Mac

01:28:28   to zoom the window to take up the full screen.

01:28:30   up full screen. And it'll resize to full screen, but it doesn't...

01:28:38   there are still edges. Yeah, it's often very questionable what... And sometimes, yeah,

01:28:43   sometimes it'll do something else weird. Right, sometimes it tries to... some apps

01:28:47   make like a best guess as to what's the biggest size you would want this to be.

01:28:51   And it's, you know, often not what you want. Yeah. Anyway, before we go, you've

01:28:57   You've got a new show, you have a new podcast.

01:29:01   I do.

01:29:02   It's you and John Armstrong of Blurbomat fame.

01:29:06   And Lex Friedman of Lex Friedman fame.

01:29:09   What's the name of the show?

01:29:10   It is called Turning This Car Around.

01:29:15   And it is about?

01:29:17   Anybody who's a father will know what I'm talking about.

01:29:20   It's about fatherhood.

01:29:21   We sit around and share.

01:29:24   It's more of a, it's not really, I don't think any of us would portray it as offering our

01:29:30   advice as fathers.

01:29:31   It's more of like a commiseration support group.

01:29:36   Tales of woe.

01:29:37   Tales of woe.

01:29:38   Warnings.

01:29:39   In fatherhood.

01:29:40   Warnings, yes.

01:29:41   Cautious words of...

01:29:46   So how many kids does everybody have?

01:29:48   Now you've got Hank.

01:29:49   I've got Hank.

01:29:51   We've got the one.

01:29:52   Hank is how old now?

01:29:54   just turned 10 like just like you're just like your son he's just like a few

01:29:58   days he's like two weeks older yeah right so he's a little bit older than my

01:30:02   Jonas and I know John's Lita is almost the exact same age too because I

01:30:08   remember you know back when when she was born they documented it on the deuce and

01:30:12   and blurb them at almost exactly the same age okay I didn't actually know I

01:30:18   didn't know exactly how old yeah you don't pay attention I don't listen I

01:30:22   I just talk and then I zone out while they talk.

01:30:25   - Right.

01:30:26   (laughing)

01:30:27   - And then Lex has three kids.

01:30:29   - And John has Marlo too, right?

01:30:32   - Yeah, yeah, so John's got two girls.

01:30:35   Four, five?

01:30:41   - Yeah, so that would be great though.

01:30:42   So I would imagine, I mean, I get the feeling over the time,

01:30:46   I feel like there'll be a lot of good stories.

01:30:48   I get the feeling, Hank, not exactly the easiest,

01:30:50   He's not exactly the easiest kid, but he's just one.

01:30:54   I imagine that you're gonna have a lot of fun

01:30:57   over the course of the show

01:30:58   with all the problems and hassles of--

01:31:00   - Yes, yeah, yeah.

01:31:03   We haven't, yeah, just one's enough for us.

01:31:06   But yeah, sometimes hearing what Lex has to go through.

01:31:11   - Right.

01:31:12   'Cause kids, here's the thing.

01:31:13   I had a sister growing up, and so it was two on two,

01:31:16   two kids, two parents.

01:31:17   But I remember we plotted against them.

01:31:21   Sure.

01:31:21   I mean, I think it just comes naturally to kids.

01:31:24   Yeah.

01:31:25   And then once you get to three, now you've got a majority.

01:31:28   You know, you can overtake them.

01:31:30   Yeah.

01:31:31   Although at the same time, they also entertain themselves.

01:31:33   Because like, Hank's got some friends live up the alley from us,

01:31:36   and there's three of them, three of those kids in that family.

01:31:39   And they just let them play.

01:31:43   And when he has a kid over to play often,

01:31:45   It's just it's easier because the two of them will just be entertaining each other's running around having a good time

01:31:49   I've it's a crapshoot in my experience if they can get in a good in a good

01:31:54   Zone yeah, and if they don't know I

01:31:58   Feel like what often happens if two kids get together is that if they can agree on what to play they're all set yes

01:32:05   Yes, that's right, but if that's true if they can't it's horrible. Yeah, all right. What's the name of the show?

01:32:10   Turning this car around all right, and it's on iTunes of course

01:32:15   But it's also at TT - CA

01:32:18   .net

01:32:20   And so it's all because all the good URLs were taken. Yeah, and it's not like some kind of I mean

01:32:26   This is what you'd expect with a bunch of knuckleheads talking about

01:32:29   Yes, right. I mean this is right. This is not like serious fun. Hopefully it's fun

01:32:34   This is not like dr. Joyce brothers like serious serious advice on how to raise your kid

01:32:41   Decidedly not probably I'm guessing the alternate title for the show was this is why daddy drinks

01:32:46   That was one of the considered titles. I believe we had a lot of we had a lot of

01:32:51   Turning this car around is good. I like the roast of the top. I

01:32:55   like it I

01:32:57   like it, you know why I like it because

01:32:59   Here's why I like the title better than this is why daddy drinks is that

01:33:04   Most of the reasons why daddy drinks are also the reason why mommy drinks

01:33:10   Whereas I'm turning this car around that's not a mom thing to say that's a dad thing

01:33:16   My mom never threatened to turn a car around my dad has gotten furiously angry while driving. Yeah, I

01:33:23   Think it is much more fun. I've been I've been there. I've said I've said it a lot jokingly

01:33:30   Definitely and I think I've probably even said it once or twice

01:33:34   in earnest

01:33:36   she just

01:33:39   Sometimes you just have to my favorite. I think the canonical example of that is

01:33:44   Towards that right at the beginning of the third act of

01:33:49   The first vacation movie where they were going to Wally world

01:33:54   and he goes off and has it the family wants to turn around and abandon the trip and he has a

01:33:59   angry profanity laced rant

01:34:02   And the son Russ from the backseat touches him on the shoulder and says hey dad and he just goes don't touch

01:34:09   I feel like that's the canonical example of yeah dad's had enough behind the wheel so

01:34:21   it's TT - CA dotnet yeah not bad nice short domain you could just go to iTunes though and search for

01:34:31   turn this car around and you go this great new show and there's gonna be a regular show this

01:34:35   This isn't like...

01:34:36   Oh yeah, no it's not a... no fly by night here.

01:34:40   We got a bunch of them in the can already.

01:34:42   There's two episodes up now.

01:34:46   Well I am looking forward to it.

01:34:48   I thought the first episode was very well done.

01:34:51   Thank you.

01:34:53   It's fun for us, so God knows it's cathartic.

01:34:57   Alright, well thank you John.

01:35:00   Okay, thank you.