The Talk Show

53: If They Had Asked Us


00:00:00   So we got a very special episode of the talk show this week. I'm here in Denver, Colorado

00:00:06   at Chateau Whiskas with my Q branch colleagues, Brent Simmons and Dave Whiskas.

00:00:13   Dave Whiskas, Jr. Hi.

00:00:14   Dave, it's your first time on the show, right?

00:00:16   Dave Whiskas, Jr. Yeah.

00:00:17   Dave Whiskas, Jr. Brent's been on a long time.

00:00:19   Brent Simmons, Jr. Once at Singleton.

00:00:21   Dave Whiskas, Jr. Was that the only time you were on?

00:00:22   Brent Simmons, Jr. I think so.

00:00:23   Dave Whiskas, Jr. That's a great show.

00:00:24   Brent Simmons, Jr. I think so.

00:00:25   Dave Whiskas, Jr. Yeah.

00:00:26   Dave Whiskas, Jr. That was a good show.

00:00:27   Brent Simmons, Jr. Live version of it.

00:00:28   You should have been on the show more often.

00:00:31   So we're recording on Thursday the week of the iPhone event and I think the show will

00:00:39   probably come out tomorrow.

00:00:40   So by the time people listen to this, they still won't be able to get a new iPhone.

00:00:46   And iOS 7 isn't quite out.

00:00:48   It's going to come out next week.

00:00:49   Right.

00:00:50   So you might as well just wait to listen to this for another week.

00:00:52   You could just wait and make it relevant.

00:00:57   We could talk about iOS 7 because I think, you know, now that it's gone GM, I think that

00:01:02   that that means the NDA is like burned up or something.

00:01:04   I think that's how that works.

00:01:06   Well, at the very least, almost everything that we would want to talk about is stuff that

00:01:10   people know now.

00:01:11   Right.

00:01:13   Right.

00:01:13   It's not a stretch to say that, like, if we want to talk about the status bar.

00:01:20   Right.

00:01:21   We've all seen the status bar.

00:01:22   We all know what the status bar looks.

00:01:24   I can't imagine that Apple would, even if that were under NDA, it's been shown at public events.

00:01:29   - Correct among them.

00:01:30   - Yeah, right on.

00:01:32   - So first the news.

00:01:32   So it's actually, you know, for a big week of, a big Apple week,

00:01:36   I think the news is relatively simple.

00:01:38   Two new phones, the 5C is really just the iPhone 5 with a new case, a new shell, I guess.

00:01:46   'Cause if you call it a case, it's confusing it with the other cases.

00:01:49   - I would say colorful candy shell.

00:01:53   and the 5S which is the new top of the line iPhone.

00:01:59   And of course, as soon as Apple announced this stuff, the stock dropped $26, lost 5%

00:02:04   in a day.

00:02:06   And the thing that gets me about that, and I would love to get your guys' opinion on

00:02:09   this, is the thing that gets me about that is that by almost all accounts, everything

00:02:13   that was announced, all of those things, the 5C, colorful candy shells, the 5S, the fingerprint

00:02:21   sensor that was all the rumors were spot on.

00:02:25   I kid.

00:02:25   So shouldn't the stock market have had like no reaction because it

00:02:30   was exactly what everybody expected.

00:02:32   This isn't based on logic or reason though, right?

00:02:34   People aren't the market isn't responding based on what Apple has actually done.

00:02:38   They're responding to the magical things that Apple was supposed to have done.

00:02:42   Somehow.

00:02:43   Yeah, there was supposed to be something beyond the rumors.

00:02:46   If it turns out that what we expect is true, then yeah.

00:02:50   Right.

00:02:51   It's the market punishing Apple for not surprising and delighting them.

00:02:58   Right. Sure. Yeah, there's nothing else to it.

00:03:03   I'm trying to stick to a, you know, and I go back and forth on this, but I'm trying

00:03:10   to stick to a "don't feed the trolls" strategy this week in terms of the

00:03:14   jackassery that people have posted. And I'm not even saying that you can't be

00:03:17   There isn't a sensible, logical, defendable, "Hey, this is kind of a disappointing week

00:03:23   for Apple," or, you know, there's arguments you can make.

00:03:25   But the things I'm talking about are the articles that are saying that they announced nothing,

00:03:32   that this is a disaster, that the 5C should be $200 off contract, and that they're doomed

00:03:38   because something, something China.

00:03:43   So I'm trying not to link to those because I think a lot of them really are just purposefully

00:03:48   written to get that sort of page view traffic that I'm going to say Apple is doomed and

00:03:54   I know that people are going to link to me.

00:03:56   Yeah, if only to disagree.

00:03:58   Right.

00:03:59   But, there's still some, I'm trying to fish it out here on my phone, there are still some,

00:04:07   there's a guy at Forbes, and Forbes is kind of turning into a click bait factory, but

00:04:12   There was a guy at Forbes who today's posted an article that seriously argued like that

00:04:17   that Tim Cook, it's already too late that he's ruined Apple.

00:04:21   And then it's probably too late for him to even save his job.

00:04:25   Ruined Apple.

00:04:26   Right.

00:04:27   This is that's not that's not just a dumb thing to say that's so hyperbolic.

00:04:30   Yeah.

00:04:31   How do you take that seriously?

00:04:33   I really do think that is like time goes on.

00:04:37   Because what we're exactly well, maybe not quite exactly.

00:04:39   that maybe were like a month short or something, but it's about two years since Steve Jobs died.

00:04:43   And the Apple can't function without Steve Jobs'

00:04:50   mindset. It's like there's no dissuading them from that. It doesn't matter what happens. And it's

00:04:57   just, it's getting worse. And I think part of it too is that people seem to like, in their minds,

00:05:04   they think that when Steve Jobs was alive, every new iPhone, you know, was amazing. It's just as

00:05:08   as amazing as the first one. Ignoring the fact that we had these exact same conversations

00:05:12   year after year when Steve was alive. Except that they didn't have the "Apple is doomed

00:05:17   without Steve Jobs" part to hang on to. Right. It was just Apple is doomed because of Steve

00:05:22   Jobs. Has Steve lost his touch? I bet if you Googled right now "Has Steve lost his touch?"

00:05:26   you're going to find at least a handful of articles from before Steve died about it.

00:05:29   And they'll be talking about the Cube or the Ping or the iPhone 4. Or the mobile meat.

00:05:35   I would bet that at least one of those was written within months of him dying.

00:05:39   Do you remember how much disappointment there was when the iPad was released?

00:05:43   Yeah.

00:05:44   One of the incredible products.

00:05:45   The blowback on the name.

00:05:46   Yeah, right.

00:05:47   But also that, eh, it's just a big phone.

00:05:49   It's just a big phone.

00:05:50   Absolutely.

00:05:51   No, it was a...

00:05:52   And look what it did.

00:05:54   Yeah.

00:05:55   Well, my favorite, I've said this before, but I think it was Schiller who's even said

00:05:58   this publicly, where that's one of the best examples of it because there was all these

00:06:03   critics and media people who streamed out of the iPad an introduction said, "Meh,

00:06:08   it's just a big iPod touch." And all around the world, there were millions of people who

00:06:12   couldn't wait to buy one because, "Oh, cool, it's a big iPod touch." Right? And especially

00:06:19   the – or it's a big iPhone. And I know how to use my iPhone. So here's a new piece

00:06:24   of technology that I know that I will be able to use and enjoy. I already know how to use

00:06:29   it.

00:06:30   That's a great example.

00:06:32   So much of Apple's success with fostering that kind of love is because of the way they

00:06:39   approach their products.

00:06:41   So much of it is people are afraid of technology.

00:06:44   With Apple products, they feel simple.

00:06:46   They feel easier to use.

00:06:47   They feel familiar.

00:06:50   Has Apple lost its touch?

00:06:52   Should Tim Cook be fired?

00:06:54   All of these things, they expect these big iPhone moments of somebody walking on a stage

00:06:58   and here's the thing that's going to change your life.

00:07:00   And that's not really what Apple does.

00:07:02   Sometimes they do that, but it's not because that's their goal.

00:07:04   It's because that's just kind of a natural byproduct of cycling.

00:07:12   And I don't think there's any way that they can get out of it.

00:07:15   There's really nothing they can do.

00:07:17   Here's the game I want to play.

00:07:18   And we talked about this before we started recording.

00:07:20   But what could Apple have announced this week regarding the iPhone that would have satisfied

00:07:25   these people?

00:07:27   I really can't think of anything.

00:07:28   And one thing that obviously pops up, they could have done a bigger screened iPhone.

00:07:32   And I think all of these same people would have just said, "Well, now they've just caught

00:07:36   up to where the competition was two years ago."

00:07:38   I don't think, like if they had announced big surprise, "Hey, the 5S comes in two sizes,

00:07:43   four inch and five inch," which obviously would satisfy some people.

00:07:47   I don't think it would have eliminated any of this.

00:07:50   This was a bad week for Apple.

00:07:52   And I can't think of anything else that they could have done that is actually like realistic.

00:07:55   Well, the anti fanboy argument has always been why does Apple act like they invented the mp3 player? They didn't invent the phone

00:08:02   What's the big deal?

00:08:04   Along those same lines

00:08:08   What what can you do to surprise or to do what what steps could you take that would be

00:08:14   Inventing something is inventing something the only logical argument, right?

00:08:18   And and yeah, they then they could have come out with the most amazing thing ever and you know a whole brand new

00:08:24   unexpected product a whole new category and people would have been down on it if they had come out with let's say a watch a

00:08:30   Smartwatch then there would be the people saying well. Yeah like Apple invented the watch

00:08:34   Right sure I did the watch thing is one of those things where I think everybody

00:08:39   It's just I want Apple to do something new and enter a new category and somebody say they're gonna do watch a watch so there

00:08:44   It is and then the day they actually release something that's probably not a watch

00:08:48   But maybe it's something that you strap on your wrist

00:08:50   At that moment all of the people who've been saying that they're already late to the game

00:08:54   They should have released a watch last year

00:08:55   They're gonna sit down and quick do the math and figure out well the watch only costs a hundred bucks

00:09:00   And so if like half of all the people who bought an iPhone buy one of these watches in the next two years

00:09:05   That's only like two billion dollars. That's nothing. You know and

00:09:10   Right, they're like, it's just an accessory. Why did they do this and it's like hey, you know

00:09:16   The opportunity to sell $800 devices to 300 million people around the world just doesn't

00:09:23   happen all the time.

00:09:25   And the watch cannot cost $800 like the iPhone.

00:09:28   The only other thing I could think of that they would have done that would have mollified

00:09:33   the people who are adamant that Apple is not just a little bit off but like I said, a ruined

00:09:41   company a shell of its former self is

00:09:43   to have announced that the 5c was truly cheap that the C stood for cheap and you could buy one for like the cost of

00:09:51   an iPod touch like

00:09:53   $229 or something like that off contract

00:09:55   Which in hindsight would have been I think really a stupid move for Apple. That's not that's not what Apple does right? Yeah, they

00:10:03   They're not the cheap company right the opposite. I mean

00:10:08   In in every single way, you know, they're they're about quality

00:10:11   See is never gonna stand for cheap, right?

00:10:13   And and all they I think that what they've done is they've slowly in this annual cycle

00:10:19   like

00:10:21   Expanded the pricing by like one notch

00:10:23   So now for $100 like last year

00:10:26   You could buy the year-old 4s for $100 less than the brand new 5 now

00:10:31   At that same price $100 less you can get a brand new phone and you could if you want

00:10:36   spend another hundred dollars and get a

00:10:39   32 gigabyte version of it. So it's nicer like the mid tier of the iPhone lineup is now nicer

00:10:45   Yeah, I wouldn't say they expanded by a notch

00:10:47   It's more that they acknowledge that notch as its own product category and have begun treating it that way, right?

00:10:53   Instead of it's already hand-me-down last year's phone. It's it's the last year's hardware but wrapped up in a different packaging

00:10:59   It's being treated the same way that the iPod touch has been treated. It's it's the fun quirky

00:11:04   Exciting version for kids. I think this also has to be Apple like really understanding how they are

00:11:09   They're an international company and selling you know to a lot of places besides just here in Canada, right?

00:11:15   you know and

00:11:17   You know the way they the way they look at

00:11:20   overseas markets

00:11:23   Has to be I'm certain very in-depth and very interesting and I would love to be inside the company

00:11:29   To know more about that, but that all had to go into the 5c I think

00:11:34   Yeah, I you know and they still have you know even with two new models

00:11:39   They have far fewer phone SKUs than any of their competition

00:11:43   But it's actually that those two phones cover. I think a pretty

00:11:47   wide

00:11:49   Gamut of the high end of the market you know there's the 5s

00:11:52   Which still you know has that premium metal finish and then the 5c which is way more?

00:11:58   fun. It's like a fun design. Right. And fun, that's an interesting word. It seems almost

00:12:04   like they've acknowledged that that category, that price category is for kids. This is the

00:12:12   younger people, teenagers and I guess younger who buy phones are one, they're going to have

00:12:16   less money to spend on them probably. And so why not appeal to them? Why not make them

00:12:20   in fun candy colors? Well, and I think it gets to what Brent was saying too is I would

00:12:24   bet and it's the sort of thing they don't really break down even though they give a

00:12:27   lot of numbers in their quarterly things, but they pretty much just say, "Here's how

00:12:30   many iPhones we sold, and here was the average selling price."

00:12:33   You can use the average selling price and the amount of phones they sold and figure

00:12:39   out how many of them are high-end, how many low-end, but you don't get a lot of color

00:12:44   in between countries.

00:12:45   But I'll bet in different countries, they're going to sell in extremely different proportions

00:12:51   and not based on economics, but just on culture.

00:12:54   Sure.

00:12:55   You know, that like, you know, like I think everybody seems to think that the gold one

00:13:01   is going to sell really well in Asia because it's sort of a status item and phones are

00:13:04   seen as a status item. And I think that in other like maybe more practical countries,

00:13:10   the 5C is going to sell better.

00:13:11   Well, you know, I've also read though that in in, in America and Europe, you know, neutrals,

00:13:19   blacks, grays, browns tend to be quite popular where China, India, other developing nations,

00:13:27   brighter colors are often are often loved. So I don't, it's not a surprise that the,

00:13:34   that there would be a product perhaps geared toward developing nations that, you know,

00:13:38   has brighter colors and costs a little bit less.

00:13:41   That's an interesting take.

00:13:42   I wouldn't have even really thought along those lines.

00:13:44   I see it as age demographics.

00:13:48   It's certainly good news for Apple if both of these things are true.

00:13:50   You can appeal to teenagers in the US and to everyone in Asia.

00:13:54   Right.

00:13:55   Well, aren't they or haven't they just gotten onto China's biggest carrier?

00:13:58   No, they haven't gone on.

00:13:59   They haven't gone on.

00:14:00   That was … that's one of the things that is … that's a real thing that if they

00:14:03   had announced it, would have been … there's a lot of people who would have seen that as

00:14:07   better news than it is.

00:14:08   It's China Mobile.

00:14:10   And there were a lot of rumors that they were going to, and I guess there's still rumors

00:14:13   that they're still in talks, but it didn't happen yet.

00:14:18   And I know, I think, and this is a little boring, but there's issues with China Mobile

00:14:25   with the specific bands that are required to operate.

00:14:30   Because it is China Mobile, they can have their own weird, sort of like Verizon used

00:14:34   to be in the US, you have to have a special phone for China Mobile.

00:14:38   But I guess that both phones would work on China Mobile.

00:14:42   So that's got everybody thinking that maybe, you know, that they're close and that these

00:14:46   phones will be on China Mobile within the year because they would work on it.

00:14:50   Well, if so, then that's awfully good news.

00:14:53   Yeah.

00:14:54   Yeah.

00:14:55   And that is one of the technical things that is different and better with the 5C versus

00:14:58   the old 5, 5 from a year ago is that it works on way more cellular networks around the world

00:15:05   with one SKU.

00:15:07   So, along those same points, I thought one of the most interesting marketing things that

00:15:12   they announced with these two phones is that there's two of them at the exact same price

00:15:17   point, $199.

00:15:21   It used to be that the mid-range and lower range, when they sold a year-old phone in

00:15:25   the mid-range and two-year-old at the lower range, you didn't have any storage options

00:15:29   for those.

00:15:30   You got 8 gigs in the low end and 16 gigs in the mid-range, and then if you didn't like

00:15:33   it, get the 5.

00:15:36   Whereas now they have two, they have a 16 and a 32 gigabyte 5C.

00:15:39   So the 32 gigabyte 5C is 199 and the 16 gigabyte 5S is 199.

00:15:47   And they've never had that sort of overlap with the previous strategy.

00:15:52   I'm really torn at trying to guess which 199 iPhone is going to sell better.

00:15:59   I really don't know what to guess.

00:16:00   What do you guys think?

00:16:04   You know, I kind of think it might be the C.

00:16:06   And just because it seems really fun.

00:16:10   I'm kind of tempted to get one just because, yeah, I'd like to pick a color and, you know,

00:16:14   they just seem cool.

00:16:16   There's something a little fresh about them.

00:16:18   I would also guess the C again because of the appeal to teenagers.

00:16:22   It's not just the colors though.

00:16:24   I think that the build materials, the difference there is interesting.

00:16:28   Having plastic versus the metal.

00:16:31   And I haven't seen one.

00:16:32   I don't know, is the C thicker?

00:16:35   - It is a little bit thicker.

00:16:35   - Little bit thicker, so no big surprise there.

00:16:37   So it kinda almost feels like,

00:16:39   I mean they make those cases,

00:16:41   but it looks like you wouldn't need a case

00:16:43   'cause it has the case built in,

00:16:44   which is a weird difference from the 5S

00:16:48   and the 5 and the 4 before it.

00:16:49   It feels more like it's its own self-contained thing.

00:16:53   - I think so, but I don't use a case

00:16:58   with my iPhone 5 either,

00:17:00   and I've never used a case with any of my iPhones.

00:17:02   But I realize now more and more that I'm clearly in a minority in that regard, that the sell-through

00:17:08   on cases is just off the charts.

00:17:10   It's probably like 80 or 90%.

00:17:13   I'm that.

00:17:14   **Matt Stauffer:** Look at the phones for people who don't have

00:17:16   cases for them.

00:17:17   Look at how dinged up they are.

00:17:19   **Matt Stauffer:** Well, mine's not dinged up.

00:17:20   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, but you and I probably handle these

00:17:22   things a little bit differently.

00:17:23   I don't use a case.

00:17:25   My phone is pristine.

00:17:26   **Matt Stauffer** But we're definitely in a minority on that.

00:17:30   Here's what I think.

00:17:31   you where I think that the 5C, and I've got to play with them in the hands-on area.

00:17:36   I've held them. Totally agree that it feels like even—I wouldn't get a case for the

00:17:42   5 or the 5S, but with the 5C, I'd be even less likely to get a case. It feels like it

00:17:48   is a case. And I'll bet 80 or 90 percent of the people who buy one buy a case for it.

00:17:52   Mad Fientist It almost seems like that's why Apple made

00:17:54   that stupid-looking case for it, with the weird holes in the back.

00:17:57   I definitely think so. I think that they've had, you know, I don't know why they didn't

00:18:03   come out with a bumper last year. So two years ago was when they came out, or no, I guess

00:18:08   it was three years ago when they did the bumpers. Because it was when they, you know, because

00:18:12   they gave the bumpers out for the antenna gate.

00:18:14   Right, right. It seems like forever ago.

00:18:16   Does seem like forever ago. And I guess they haven't done cases since? Although they

00:18:22   kept the bumpers around for the 4S though.

00:18:25   Yeah, I had a bumper on my 4S. I loved it. And then the 5 came out, no bumper. I didn't

00:18:31   ever get a case for it and I was happier. I felt like it was cathartic. I let go.

00:18:37   But I don't, just observationally, just looking at people in airports and coffee shops

00:18:42   and stuff like that, it doesn't seem like those bumpers ever really took off. I mean,

00:18:45   it's not that I never saw them, but they were not as popular. People really want to

00:18:48   protect the phone, or at least they think they do when they buy a case. They want…

00:18:53   Their argument was, "Hey, we made the back real beautiful, so we made a case that's

00:18:57   just a bumper to show it off."

00:18:58   I feel like the mass market was like, "Oh, I want to protect that back."

00:19:01   Mad Fientist Well, they certainly had a bunch of them in

00:19:02   the stores, and it seemed like one or two colors were always sold out.

00:19:05   I was about to argue that everyone I knew who had a 404 had a bumper on it, but that

00:19:10   might be a little bit tainted because all my friends are nerds.

00:19:13   Dave Asprey And I think they got into the bumper business

00:19:16   because they know how many people buy them.

00:19:19   It's just like, you know, it's like a free extra $29 per iPhone sold.

00:19:24   For something that makes 45 cents to make.

00:19:27   Probably.

00:19:28   And they wanted in on that money rather than just the, you know, whatever, however much

00:19:33   money they make selling third party cases in the Apple store and Apple online.

00:19:37   And I feel like this year is the year that they finally are like, okay, you know, this

00:19:42   case thing is not going to go away.

00:19:44   We kind of, I really think that Johnny Ive kind of hates that everybody wraps these phones

00:19:49   in cases.

00:19:50   But I feel like they're like, "Okay, you're going to wrap it in a case.

00:19:54   We want you to buy our case."

00:19:55   Well, look at it.

00:19:57   Did you see one with the case on it?

00:19:58   Have you looked at the pictures?

00:19:59   The way it covers up the logo, and now you can see it looks like it just says "non."

00:20:03   Yeah, Matthew Panzorino now at TechCrunch was the first one to kind of call that out.

00:20:09   And I have to agree, it doesn't seem-

00:20:10   It's gone awful ugly.

00:20:11   But that's the case for the 5C.

00:20:14   Right.

00:20:15   And that, again, it seems like that phone is designed to not have a case and they only

00:20:19   made this thing so that they could say they made a thing because they felt like people

00:20:22   had asked for it.

00:20:24   It doesn't seem like it was made thoughtfully.

00:20:27   The cases, the leather cases for the 5S seem more serious.

00:20:32   I don't know.

00:20:33   I think people aren't going to like those holes in the back of the other one.

00:20:35   Yeah, I don't expect they will.

00:20:37   It kind of has that bumper feel where it's supposed to show you more of the phone.

00:20:40   Like if you go out and you buy the gold one and you throw one of the leather cases on

00:20:43   it, you're never going to see the gold.

00:20:45   Well, you'd see it on the ring.

00:20:50   But I think people are going to do it.

00:20:51   I really do.

00:20:52   Sure.

00:20:53   I guess what people like to do, I see a lot of third party cases where they, a lot of

00:20:59   them, where they have a hole cut out just for the Apple logo.

00:21:02   Like just to, you know.

00:21:03   It's status.

00:21:04   Yeah.

00:21:05   And you want to let people know that you're using an iPhone.

00:21:06   That's what I think the people who buy the gold one will buy is they're going to buy

00:21:09   buy one that has a hole so you can see the gold Apple logo in the back. But they just

00:21:13   want one hole just for the Apple logo.

00:21:17   It does seem … and thinking about it more, it does seem to make those holes that don't

00:21:23   align at all with anything on the back of the phone on that 5C case seem more inexplicable.

00:21:30   Because it seems like it's pretty obvious that people want the brand stuff to show through.

00:21:35   I can't imagine that like the tactile feel of your hands on those those holes is gonna be a pleasant sensation

00:21:41   I'm imagining it would be weird to hold in my hand. Yeah

00:21:44   Yeah, I don't know yeah

00:21:48   So looks like it feels ugly

00:21:52   So I think we're all in agreement that the

00:21:56   That the

00:22:00   That the 5c is going to be very popular phone

00:22:03   Absolutely.

00:22:04   You guys agree?

00:22:05   Yeah.

00:22:06   No doubt in mind.

00:22:07   C stands for cute.

00:22:08   Yeah.

00:22:09   I pointed out on during Fireball that, in my day one write-up, that it seems telling

00:22:15   to me that it's when you go to Apple.com, that's the first one that's listed.

00:22:19   There's a carousel of the new stuff, but the first one is the 5C.

00:22:25   And it's the only one that's available for pre-order.

00:22:27   It's going to be available, I guess, pre-order tomorrow, so it would probably be the day

00:22:30   that the show comes out.

00:22:31   the 5S is not available for pre-order. And my guess, sort of semi-informed by people

00:22:38   in the Cupertino area, is that it's about availability. That the 5C, there's more

00:22:45   of them on boats en route from China right now than the 5S.

00:22:48   **Matt Stauffer** Do you think that any of that has to do with

00:22:51   the colors of the 5S?

00:22:53   **Joe Stauffer** I don't know. I bet it's more just that all

00:22:56   the components are new. That the A7 is new, that the fingerprint sensor is new, that the

00:23:01   camera is new. Whereas all of those components in the five C

00:23:05   are year old components. It's the exact same camera from the

00:23:08   five. It's the exact same a six, it's the exact same, even the

00:23:12   home button.

00:23:12   And I was gonna add less to do to ramp up right, right. Like

00:23:15   it's, it's made of components that they're already good at

00:23:18   making. I was about to suggest that maybe it had something to

00:23:21   do with like trying to mitigate demand for a specific color of

00:23:24   the five. But that that doesn't quite make sense. Because then

00:23:26   you would want pre order. So you would know how many to ship over

00:23:28   on boats, how many of these things to put together? Right?

00:23:31   I wonder what we'll see when the pre-order comes out.

00:23:35   Will we see that pink and blue are six weeks delayed?

00:23:40   If you didn't get in the day that the moment that the store opened, now there's six weeks

00:23:44   delayed but you can get a yellow one in a week.

00:23:47   Yeah.

00:23:48   Who's going to want to buy a yellow one?

00:23:49   Who's going to buy a white one?

00:23:51   White seems to me, yeah.

00:23:53   White one seems sort of boring and it looks, even in person to me, it looks a lot like

00:23:58   an old white 3GS.

00:24:00   Yeah, exactly.

00:24:02   It actually looks less new than the other ones because I've seen a white plastic iPhone

00:24:07   before.

00:24:08   Yeah.

00:24:09   And years ago when the iPhone first came out, that was kind of the mental image, the prototypical

00:24:15   mental image of what an Apple phone would look like.

00:24:18   Was that white candy shell?

00:24:19   That's right.

00:24:20   Yeah.

00:24:21   With a QWERTY keyboard and a slide-out keyboard.

00:24:25   Pre-iPhone, all the artist renditions of a – you're right that they look that way.

00:24:29   the ones that were like to dial the phone you had to use the circular iPod controls?

00:24:35   Well Tony Fadell has admitted that they actually made prototypes that work like that. They

00:24:40   actually you know that there was it always seemed like a joke and I think a lot of the

00:24:44   people who made those mock-ups were joking but they actually tried that and and his you

00:24:49   know and then he just said you know there's a reason people don't use rotary phones anymore.

00:24:53   It seems like they tried it and then quickly abandoned.

00:24:56   And that surprises me.

00:24:57   It doesn't surprise me that they would want to prototype things and try things

00:25:00   out when exploring a new product category, but that they would, that that

00:25:03   ever made it past the conceptual phase.

00:25:05   Right.

00:25:05   Yeah.

00:25:06   Yeah.

00:25:07   Cause it just seems, it seems like something maybe you don't even have to try.

00:25:10   Yeah.

00:25:10   It's so, it's so dumb that you don't even need to bother going down that path.

00:25:14   Right.

00:25:14   So though, when you have billions of dollars in your pocket, you can, you can

00:25:18   make the prototype gas.

00:25:20   Well, they have billions of dollars, but not billions of engineers and designers.

00:25:23   That's true.

00:25:24   Um, all right.

00:25:26   Before I take the first sponsor break, what are you guys going to buy?

00:25:30   I think I'm going to buy gold.

00:25:31   You're going to buy a 5S gold?

00:25:33   I have 5S gold.

00:25:35   Surprising.

00:25:36   I would not have guessed that when I saw the mock-ups.

00:25:38   Even because I've got my phone, I've got it re-anodized.

00:25:41   It's blue and one of the available colors was a gold.

00:25:43   Even then, it's like, "That just looks gaudy.

00:25:45   I would never do that."

00:25:46   But something about the way Apple's put it together and the ring on the front, it ends

00:25:49   up looking elegant and it's different.

00:25:51   Brent?

00:25:52   I'm probably going to buy the 5S Black, but I might just go crazy and buy a 5C and get

00:25:59   one of the colors.

00:26:00   Because you wouldn't want the 64-bit and the faster...

00:26:03   I like developing for that stuff.

00:26:06   You know, the phones are pretty darn fast already.

00:26:08   That's true.

00:26:09   Yeah.

00:26:10   I'm going to go 64 gigabyte Black 5S.

00:26:14   Well, it's not black.

00:26:16   It's space gray.

00:26:17   Space gray.

00:26:18   Dave, you have an interesting theory on this.

00:26:20   I think they had to call it, there's all these people on Twitter who are complaining about

00:26:24   space isn't gray or making fun of space gray. It's gunmetal gray. That's the real name of that

00:26:29   color. But they can't call it gunmetal gray because gun, the word gun is too politicized.

00:26:33   If they call it gunmetal, then they're drawing attention in a way that they don't want.

00:26:36   Yeah, I totally agree. And having seen it, gunmetal gray is exactly what I would call it.

00:26:43   And I think it's better because it's better than last year's black because it looks like,

00:26:49   like just like a darker metal. Whereas they're not trying to make like the last year's one

00:26:53   looks more like the 2001 monolith, just a black slab. Whereas this one looks like it's

00:27:00   a black face with a metal side. And I think that as it wears over the year and you get

00:27:05   little nicks along the edges, I think it's going to, they're not going to stand out

00:27:09   anywhere as much as they did on the black.

00:27:10   Right. And they may have even refined the anodization process. Like I had mine re-anodized

00:27:14   now I can throw the thing on the concrete and the scratches barely show.

00:27:18   I think it's like sort of like just good advice to just like the materials should be honest

00:27:22   to themselves. I mean, I'm sure Johnny Ive has said that in a video about 10 times over

00:27:26   the years, but I feel like the black one last year went a far, went afield from that because

00:27:32   it's, it was metal, but they tried to make it look like not metal. Whereas now it looks

00:27:37   like metal.

00:27:38   Yeah. And going back to the color thing, the space gray gunmetal gray, that's a name that

00:27:43   refers to where you would see that color of metal. And I think space gray kind of refers

00:27:47   the same thing. It feels sci-fi. It's like that's the color of the spaceship you would

00:27:51   imagine.

00:27:52   Yeah.

00:27:53   All right. Let me take a break here. Thank our first sponsor. It's our old friends at

00:27:59   Squarespace, long time sponsors of the show. You probably know this. You probably listen

00:28:04   to the show. Squarespace, I'll tell you what they are. They're an all in one platform that

00:28:08   makes it fast and easy to create your own professional website or online portfolio.

00:28:16   For a free trial and 10% off, you can go to squarespace.com and use the code TALKSHOW9.

00:28:24   That's T-A-L-K-S-H-O-W and then the digit 9.

00:28:29   Here's an interesting thing.

00:28:30   They've sent me some more information.

00:28:32   This stat just kills me.

00:28:34   I can't believe it.

00:28:36   One of the things they pride themselves on at Squarespace is their 24-hour, 7 days a

00:28:42   week customer support.

00:28:44   You sign up.

00:28:45   The plan started just eight bucks a month, and that includes your own domain name.

00:28:49   For eight bucks a month, at any point while you're setting this thing up, if you have

00:28:53   a problem, you can get help online from a real person in New York.

00:28:56   They have 70 people in their customer care team, which is crazy.

00:29:00   That to me is an enormous number, but it just shows how big Squarespace is and how many

00:29:04   customers they have and how totally serious they are about at any point you need help,

00:29:10   there's someone in New York who's ready to help you, which just blows my mind.

00:29:13   Everything about those guys makes it seem like they're like preparing to take over the world.

00:29:17   They really want to get it right.

00:29:19   Dave Asprey Yeah, and they're always coming out with new templates. They have a whole bunch of

00:29:21   stuff to choose from. All their templates are mobile ready. You load the same site on your

00:29:26   iPhone. It looks perfect on the iPhone. You load it on your iPad, it looks perfect there.

00:29:30   So go to squarespace.com and check them out if you have any need for a website.

00:29:34   **Matt Stauffer** And not to put too fine a point on it, but you know how if you see like the same,

00:29:39   the same, let's say, WordPress theme being used over and over again, you kind of get

00:29:43   tired of it.

00:29:44   But there's a thing with the Squarespace templates that when you see it, it's almost a relief.

00:29:49   Like you recognize it, and even though you've seen this before, it's familiar.

00:29:52   It feels familiar, not repetitive.

00:29:54   Right.

00:29:55   Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

00:29:57   It's definitely a way to set yourself apart from a lot of the other places where you can

00:30:00   host something for free and use the exact same template that every other person uses.

00:30:05   you get a little design hand-holding.

00:30:12   So let's jump and talk.

00:30:13   You mentioned the 64-bit when Brent was saying maybe he'd get a 5C.

00:30:17   So it seems like this, I wouldn't say controversy, but it seems like, especially as I looked

00:30:23   around the web today, there's an awful lot of people who are arguing that going 64-bit

00:30:32   is a sort of show-off, do-nothing, meaningless move at this point, because one of the things

00:30:40   about 64-bit computing is it lets software address more than 4GB of memory.

00:30:46   And so it was a big deal when Mac OS X went 64-bit, because big data-hungry apps could

00:30:53   use a lot more RAM.

00:30:54   Like effectively unlimited RAM.

00:30:56   However much RAM you could put in the machine, now your software could use it.

00:30:59   - Well the iPhone only has 512, I think, megabytes of RAM,

00:31:04   or maybe a gig, I don't know, but it certainly doesn't.

00:31:06   - I think it's a gig now.

00:31:07   - Well it's definitely not four.

00:31:09   - Sure, yeah.

00:31:10   - So the question is, is there any other advantage

00:31:13   to going 64-bit other than just being able

00:31:15   to say you went 64-bit?

00:31:17   - Well of course, you know, even 64-bit apps on the Mac

00:31:22   are probably not using that much memory,

00:31:24   that that's even the issue.

00:31:26   issue is that, um, you know, they're newer processors, faster processors,

00:31:32   they have more registers or, you know, whatever, uh, different instruction

00:31:36   sets, whatever they're just designed to be really fast.

00:31:38   They're better.

00:31:39   I think there's a secondary, just the memory, right.

00:31:42   Memory address.

00:31:43   Agreed.

00:31:43   But I think, I think even, even if the memory thing doesn't make any sense,

00:31:48   and even if they aren't any faster, even if the benchmarks are the same, um, for

00:31:52   the architecture between 32 bit and 64, but on the same processor, it still

00:31:56   seems like Apple setting themselves up to make some kind of change. If I'm Apple and

00:32:01   I've got the 64-bit CPU that I can make that's really fast and I'm putting it in my mobile

00:32:06   devices, I'm going to be thinking about what other mobile devices I have that I could put

00:32:09   this in. Not just, obviously the iPad, but the MacBook Air. They've already made the

00:32:15   architecture switch once. I would be shocked if they didn't have Mac OS X running on ARM

00:32:20   processors right now.

00:32:21   Yeah, they probably do.

00:32:24   And they emphasized that one of the phrases that they used a couple of times in the event

00:32:29   about the performance was that it was "Desktop class performance."

00:32:33   And then they had the Infinity Blade guys come out.

00:32:36   That was actually, I think, the only software that was actually demoed live on stage.

00:32:40   They didn't demo.

00:32:41   All the iOS 7 stuff was in the keynote slides.

00:32:47   The only person who actually used an iPhone on stage was the Infinity Blade guy.

00:32:52   I'm almost certain.

00:32:54   Which I thought was interesting.

00:32:55   But you know, and those guys emphasized that this was like console quality gaming graphics.

00:33:02   If that chip doesn't show up in the next iteration of the MacBook Air, I'll be surprised.

00:33:07   And I would bet money that within a year it's in the MacBook Air.

00:33:11   That's a bold timeline.

00:33:12   I don't know.

00:33:13   I don't think a year.

00:33:14   But I would bet they're looking at it seriously.

00:33:16   I believe that, but I'm not going to bet a lot of money.

00:33:19   Right, but I do think it fits in in the general idea, though, that the MacBook Air is not

00:33:24   about maximizing performance.

00:33:26   It's about minimizing weight, minimizing thickness, minimizing heat, and maximizing battery life,

00:33:34   given those constraints.

00:33:36   We're going to make this thing really small, so we can't put a physically huge battery

00:33:40   in there, but we really do want these to have amazing battery life.

00:33:44   The ones that came out this year, like the jump in battery life year over year on the

00:33:48   current Airs that you can buy is amazing.

00:33:51   It's absolutely amazing.

00:33:52   I agree.

00:33:53   But let's also not discount the importance of controlling your supply chain.

00:33:57   Right.

00:33:58   Yeah?

00:33:59   And then they'd have their own CPUs, their own made CPUs.

00:34:01   But I can't help but think that a hypothetical MacBook Air based on a 64-bit ARM processor,

00:34:08   Battery life would, you know, it could conceivably get 20 hours of battery life.

00:34:13   Yeah.

00:34:15   Like iPad style battery life.

00:34:16   It just, it feels like there's every reason to start thinking about making this switch.

00:34:20   And it really shouldn't be a surprise.

00:34:23   It's telling that they would say specifically desktop class performance, but ever since they started making their own chips for anything, this has kind of been in the back of people's minds.

00:34:31   Sure.

00:34:32   What's going to happen to Intel in the long term?

00:34:35   I mean, they'll probably be okay in the medium term.

00:34:40   Long term, they're going to have—everything's going mobile these days.

00:34:44   And how much are they really doing in that space?

00:34:45   They just seem to have missed the boat entirely.

00:34:47   Well, and the weird thing about Intel—maybe not weird, but the problem they're facing

00:34:54   is sort of like the problem Microsoft is facing.

00:34:56   Then they've always been the sibling companies.

00:34:58   Microsoft did the PC software and Intel did the PC hardware.

00:35:02   And in the way that Microsoft is getting pinched by the rise of free software, like the way

00:35:07   that Google just gives it for free, and Microsoft wants to charge $10 so you can use Windows

00:35:14   Phone, that's a huge reason why Windows Phone is less popular than Android.

00:35:19   There's no doubt in my mind, because Samsung doesn't want to pay anybody $10 per phone

00:35:24   that they use.

00:35:26   And Microsoft is not set up for that world.

00:35:29   They're not set up for a world where they make money on your word processing activity

00:35:34   by selling five cent ads and just make up by having 50 million people use it in a day

00:35:39   and then it's real money.

00:35:41   They're set up so that they get $100 at a time when you upgrade to Word.

00:35:46   Intel's the same way where they're used to making $200, $300, $400 for a high end CPU

00:35:51   and these ARM CPUs that are in these devices are, I don't know what exactly they cost but

00:35:56   they don't cost anywhere near what Intel charges for a CP.

00:36:01   And they're just not set up for that.

00:36:02   I mean, I think in theory, they used to be part of ARM.

00:36:05   They sold their partner ARM.

00:36:06   I mean, they could obviously get back into it and make them,

00:36:09   but they can't get back into ARM

00:36:11   and sell the chips for the prices that they want to.

00:36:14   - Right.

00:36:15   So maybe if you're Intel,

00:36:18   you're thinking about getting acquired

00:36:20   by somebody who makes these things?

00:36:22   - Intel's still really big. - I can't imagine

00:36:24   acquiring Intel.

00:36:25   But I mean, I'm just talking long term.

00:36:27   If they can't produce them and sell them with a markup cheaply enough, the best bet

00:36:32   is to—if the world is turning in the direction of everybody's building their own CPUs,

00:36:38   sooner or later they're going to run out of CPU companies to buy.

00:36:41   I think that they've got to get into—they've got to get into mobile somehow.

00:36:45   And they've got to accept that they're going to be cheap and somehow do it in a way

00:36:49   that—except that people are going to buy a lot more mobile devices.

00:36:53   You know, they're gonna buy watches they're gonna buy glasses that have a CPU, you know, your eyeglasses and now have a CPU

00:37:00   and

00:37:01   Everybody wants that and prepare for that world and and instead of selling one

00:37:06   $400

00:37:08   Pentium to somebody who's gonna keep the computer for three years

00:37:12   You know try to sell them seven or eight little CPUs that you know, you upgrade every year, right make it up in volume

00:37:19   Right like it's you know it's an old joke, but I mean you actually maybe they could make it up in volume

00:37:24   well if they actually charge something which

00:37:26   Right and there's all those side processors like the thing that the app was using in the 5s for the the motion tracking like the

00:37:34   What was it called the?

00:37:36   M7 M7 yeah

00:37:39   That's just so there this let's talk about the m7 so Dave. I know you you were a Fitbit right yeah

00:37:44   Yeah, I've got the Fitbit. Do you have anything like that Brent? I do not I

00:37:49   I had...

00:37:50   I'm too fit, he doesn't need one.

00:37:52   I got, it was an Indiegogo campaign for a Fitbit type device called the Misfit Shine.

00:37:59   And...

00:38:00   What a weird name.

00:38:01   That sounds like an indie rock band.

00:38:02   Yeah, a little bit.

00:38:03   It was like a little, about the size of a quarter.

00:38:06   Kind of really cool to touch.

00:38:07   It had a real nice build quality.

00:38:10   It came with a little rubber thing you could stretch around it and magnetize it to put

00:38:15   on your belt or your pockets.

00:38:16   It lasted six days before I lost it.

00:38:18   And now I have no idea where it is.

00:38:20   I hear people talking about losing their Fitbits.

00:38:22   I haven't lost mine, fortunately.

00:38:27   But even just in those six days, I thought the thing was a pain in the ass.

00:38:31   Amy has a Fitbit, or she's had a couple of them because she's lost a few.

00:38:35   Or put them through the washer.

00:38:37   Yeah, put them through the washer.

00:38:39   The one time it was terrible.

00:38:40   She had a brand new skirt and she put it in the pocket.

00:38:43   It ends up that it wasn't a pocket.

00:38:45   It was like a slit.

00:38:46   And so it just like…

00:38:47   It went straight through.

00:38:48   - Oh, no fair.

00:38:49   - Well, that's terrible design.

00:38:52   Something that looks like a pocket has to be a pocket.

00:38:55   You cannot have something that looks like a pocket

00:38:57   that just drops right through to the ground.

00:38:59   - How do you not notice?

00:39:00   Did she not hear it hit the floor?

00:39:01   - No, it probably had enough stiction

00:39:06   that it, who knows where she lost it.

00:39:10   - I guess.

00:39:11   - But I think that the sinking,

00:39:14   it's the sinking that gets me.

00:39:15   I don't wanna have another device that I need to sink.

00:39:17   Right, and the only reason I have, like when I'm traveling, I'll use Bluetooth on my

00:39:21   phone for my car, but if I'm nowhere near my car, I just turn Bluetooth off.

00:39:24   Especially with Control Center, it's so easy to do.

00:39:28   To have one more thing that I have to have Bluetooth on for to keep these things working,

00:39:33   to not have to think about that would be a win.

00:39:34   Right.

00:39:35   The only time that I wouldn't have it with me would be when I'm actually exercising,

00:39:38   like if I go for a jog.

00:39:40   I don't take my iPhone.

00:39:41   You don't take your phone?

00:39:42   No.

00:39:43   you could imagine that, I don't know, maybe an external thing, I don't know.

00:39:48   But maybe I would, maybe I would with the M7. I don't know.

00:39:51   I mean, if you knew that your phone was your Fitbit,

00:39:54   and I'm going to say Fitbit because my guess is that with this stuff,

00:39:58   they're eventually going to make a dedicated app that replaces the hardware

00:40:02   thing.

00:40:02   And there's still gonna be plenty of people who buy the hardware things and not

00:40:04   everybody's gonna have the phone that does this.

00:40:05   I just don't see jogging with, with your phone. I can't, I can't,

00:40:10   I'm going to break it somehow.

00:40:12   Or just like all that jostling day after day.

00:40:15   Sometimes I don't even like to take a key.

00:40:16   What are you talking about?

00:40:17   Yeah, a shuffle.

00:40:18   Shuffle?

00:40:19   Yeah, I mean, just like, you know, I could buy one a day if I had to.

00:40:22   Right, that's exactly what I take.

00:40:24   I take a shuffle.

00:40:25   Yeah.

00:40:26   Yeah, and I do bring my house keys because otherwise, you know, the cocks suck.

00:40:30   Well, let's come back to that because there's, maybe I'll do it after a sponsor break.

00:40:34   We'll come back to that idea of taking the shuffle and putting that M7 in other devices.

00:40:39   Right.

00:40:40   But I do think, I think that they almost, if there's anything that's new in the 5S that

00:40:45   they underplayed, I think it's that motion chip.

00:40:49   Because they spent a lot of time on the camera and spent a lot of time on the performance

00:40:54   improvements.

00:40:55   You know, they had the Infinity Blade guys come out.

00:40:56   The M7, the motion thing, they kind of, I think, you know, they were like, "Hey, here's

00:41:00   what it does."

00:41:01   But they didn't really tell like a story about how you could use it.

00:41:05   Well, they had nothing to demo.

00:41:06   Right.

00:41:07   With the camera, you can demo a camera.

00:41:08   You can demo Infinity Blade.

00:41:10   You can demo how fast a phone is, but it's harder to demo for just a piece of technology.

00:41:15   It doesn't do anything yet.

00:41:16   Right.

00:41:17   And it seems, and because it's new, so there's no apps for it yet.

00:41:20   Although clearly behind the scenes they've been working with Nike because they talked

00:41:23   about an upcoming Nike app that will integrate with it.

00:41:26   And they specifically said for this kind of app, we're going to see a whole new class

00:41:29   of fitness apps.

00:41:30   Right.

00:41:31   It seems like the big difference between the camera and the motion tracker is that the

00:41:35   camera, I mean not that there aren't gazillion camera apps in the app store, but Apple has

00:41:39   a very serious camera app that's built into the phone, whereas they're apparently not

00:41:43   going to have a built-in fitness app that's part of iOS.

00:41:47   Well, yeah, yeah, because this only works on one device.

00:41:52   Good point.

00:41:53   So maybe that changes three years from now when every iPhone has a motion tracker.

00:41:57   Maybe.

00:41:58   Or maybe they just let it be a third-party opportunity.

00:42:01   Maybe it did kind of feel, the way they said it, the whole new class of fitness, health

00:42:06   and fitness application, however the phrasing was there.

00:42:08   It seemed like they were, I don't want to say daring, but encouraging developers, like,

00:42:12   "Come on, guys.

00:42:13   Start thinking about this stuff."

00:42:14   **Beserat Debebe:** They probably already reached out to, well,

00:42:17   not just Nike, but other partners in this, I imagine.

00:42:19   **Matt Stauffer:** Well, but I wonder though, because some of

00:42:21   them, I mean, well, Nike sells their own hardware too, so I don't know.

00:42:25   Would they have reached out to Fitbit behind the scenes?

00:42:27   I don't know.

00:42:28   **Beserat Debebe:** That seems like the obvious choice to me.

00:42:30   And I say that because I'm a Fitbit user, but Fitbit has been kind of on a talent acquisition

00:42:36   spree.

00:42:37   really, really top level designers.

00:42:41   And I haven't seen anything new come out of that.

00:42:43   So maybe Apple's been working with them on some of that.

00:42:45   But it seems like part of it is, you know, it's like it's supposed to be like a, what's

00:42:50   I called a circle that, that's a good virtuous, virtuous circle.

00:42:55   Yeah.

00:42:56   That it, a big part of using a Fitbit or any of these devices seems to be the social networking

00:43:02   angle of it.

00:43:03   you've got a Fitbit and you know I know that you and Amy and Lex and what's his

00:43:10   name the jackass with the beard Montero man you say jacks of the beard I got it

00:43:16   I can't say anything cuz that could be I'm gonna say the wrong name Mike Montero

00:43:20   that you guys are all like in like a social circle on the Fitbit site and you

00:43:25   guys are all comparing your steps every day yeah yeah because I know the one

00:43:28   time there was like two days where you had like ten steps and Amy was like hey

00:43:31   "Hey, are you sure Whiskus isn't dead?"

00:43:34   - She said that?

00:43:35   - Yeah.

00:43:36   I was like, "No, he probably just didn't put the thing on."

00:43:37   She was like, "I don't know, maybe you should check in

00:43:39   "and see if he's actually--"

00:43:40   - Sometimes I forget to sync it.

00:43:41   - Do you ever wake up in the morning and just think,

00:43:42   "How can I get through the day only taking 10 steps?"

00:43:46   - No, I think that would be easier to pull off then,

00:43:49   'cause my daily goal is set at 10,000.

00:43:51   I can do 10 steps a lot easier than I can do 10,000 steps.

00:43:55   - Still, though, there would be just something fun to try.

00:43:58   - She's killing it right now.

00:43:59   She's 134,477 steps right now is where Amy's at.

00:44:04   Is that all time though?

00:44:05   No, that's in the last seven days.

00:44:07   Oh, wow.

00:44:08   Yeah, she's killing it.

00:44:10   That's pretty good.

00:44:12   I'm at like 38,000.

00:44:13   I need to get off my ass.

00:44:16   But I thought that maybe I wasn't paying enough attention during that part of the presentation.

00:44:21   But I left the presentation confused about just how independent the M7 is from the rest

00:44:28   of like the CPU.

00:44:29   Like, so, well, I think it matters profoundly for battery life.

00:44:35   So let's say I get this Nike app that they have already promoted and I'm going to use

00:44:40   that app and the M7 and track my steps with my phone.

00:44:43   Does that mean my battery life is going to go down because the Nike app is running in

00:44:47   some way in the background all day?

00:44:50   But is it?

00:44:51   No, the answer is no.

00:44:52   And I don't think they made that clear.

00:44:53   The M7 is kind of independent, and it's like a Fitbit or like that Misfit Shine that I

00:45:00   lost.

00:45:01   It just takes a watch battery.

00:45:03   Not that there's a separate watch battery for it, but that sort of tracking clearly

00:45:08   doesn't take a lot of power.

00:45:10   If it can run off a watch battery for a couple of months, then it's obviously something that

00:45:14   is almost a negligible effect compared to all the other stuff going on on the phone.

00:45:19   just works all the time and it does nothing on the CPU and no

00:45:23   software running on the CPU. It's just this little independent

00:45:27   chip that's tracking and logging those steps. And then when you

00:45:31   launch the Nike app, or the Fitbit app or whatever app, it

00:45:35   goes and queries it and gets a log of all the activity since

00:45:38   the last time the app, it just gets data and then it process in

00:45:42   Apple, they did in the event, I thought they said that it does

00:45:45   the thing and then the main processor will will analyze the

00:45:48   - But it doesn't do any of that until you launch an app

00:45:51   to do it and I think like, it compared to some of the apps

00:45:54   that are already in the store that let you track,

00:45:58   you know, use like the GPS and stuff,

00:45:59   they're all battery killers.

00:46:01   Like the stuff that's in the iPhone store now

00:46:03   to use your iPhone to track like where you've been like.

00:46:06   - Right, right.

00:46:07   And I've known some people who worked on apps like that

00:46:10   and the trouble with it is one, you've gotta carry

00:46:11   your phone with you when you go running,

00:46:13   which is not something everybody wants to do,

00:46:16   But the app has to be open.

00:46:18   It won't just track that stuff in the background if the app isn't the front most thing.

00:46:23   Right, and I mean over the years all the stuff that happens in the background, Apple has tried to engineer the APIs very carefully.

00:46:30   So that if you're going to do audio in the background, it's minimally CPU intensive.

00:46:37   But still it is CPU, it's still something, some kind of code is running on the CPU.

00:46:42   And that takes battery and the M7 thing is not.

00:46:45   **Matt Stauffer:** It's super clever.

00:46:47   **Ezra Klein:** It seems very clever.

00:46:49   **Matt Stauffer** It makes perfect sense.

00:46:51   Yeah.

00:46:52   **Ezra Klein** And I think it was in his wrap up at the event.

00:46:57   Tim Cook mentioned and he sort of emphasized it, maybe like verbally underlined it, that

00:47:02   the new stuff they've added to the 5S is all intended to be genuinely useful.

00:47:08   I took that as a sort of a, we're not going to name names, but look at the goofy stuff

00:47:12   Samsung came out with this year that nobody used.

00:47:16   Six months later, nobody uses.

00:47:17   The thing where if you're watching a video and you move your eyes away, the video pauses.

00:47:23   I think they had a thing where it could scroll text based on where your eyes are.

00:47:28   They had a silly thing where you can not touch the screen and just point your finger at it.

00:47:33   All gimmicks and none of them are actually useful.

00:47:36   Well, maybe useful but not useful yet.

00:47:38   Like these are tech demos.

00:47:39   These are prototypes for something that we might want five years from now.

00:47:42   Maybe, but it seems like what they are emphasizing with the 5S is that, look, the better camera,

00:47:47   you're going to take better pictures and better video.

00:47:49   It's real improvement.

00:47:51   Well, it's also an explanation to the people who think that they're supposed to come out and change the world.

00:47:54   Like, we're doing the things that are going to make this phone genuinely better,

00:47:58   that will actually improve the way you do things, make your life more whatever.

00:48:05   All right, let me take a break here and thank our second sponsor.

00:48:08   It's An Event Apart.

00:48:12   An Event Apart is the design conference for people who make websites.

00:48:16   It's the one web design and front-end development conference that you don't want to miss.

00:48:21   And it's great because there's a couple of events all around the country, so it's not

00:48:24   just one place and you've got to travel there.

00:48:27   They've probably got an event near you.

00:48:31   Their stage, the Event Apart stage, is where Ethan Marcotte introduced responsive web design.

00:48:36   I mean, that's where they invented it.

00:48:37   The guy invented it in a presentation at Event Apart.

00:48:39   I mean, this is a huge deal.

00:48:42   It's where Kristo Halvorsson sounded the cry for content strategy.

00:48:46   It's where Luke Roblowski premiered the idea of designing for mobile first and then expanding

00:48:52   to desktop browser second.

00:48:55   If you care about code as well as content, usability as well as design, and Event Apart

00:49:01   is the conference for you.

00:49:04   See the cities, the schedules, and the tickets and more.

00:49:07   Go to their website.

00:49:08   Here's the address.

00:49:09   And eventapart.com/talkshow.

00:49:14   And that'll let them know you came here from this show.

00:49:17   And eventapart.com/talkshow.

00:49:19   Check them out.

00:49:25   So this was the first year they called the event this year the music event.

00:49:28   And this is the first time they've ever had a quote unquote music event, which is

00:49:32   always what they call their September events, where they didn't have any new iPods, not

00:49:36   just no new iPod touches, no new iPods period.

00:49:39   And no real, nothing really related to music.

00:49:42   Other than the, that London festival, the iTunes festival.

00:49:47   Right.

00:49:48   And I guess that's where they announced that GarageBand is free for the iOS, right?

00:49:53   The iLife stuff.

00:49:54   Wasn't that a thing? Am I misremembering something?

00:49:58   Oh, right. For new purchasers, you get iWork. Does that include garage

00:49:58   - Oh right, for new purchasers.

00:50:00   - Right, right.

00:50:01   - You get iWork, does that include garage--

00:50:03   - Well I thought it was like iWork iLife.

00:50:05   - Yeah, maybe it is, yeah, I don't remember exactly.

00:50:07   - Glossed over.

00:50:07   - Which is very nice.

00:50:09   - Which would be, yeah, sure.

00:50:11   If I'm even remembering that correctly.

00:50:13   - Well we could come back to that.

00:50:16   But I wanna say, I wanna talk about the iPods.

00:50:18   I'm really wondering whether there's gonna be

00:50:21   no new iPods at all this year,

00:50:22   or they just didn't want to steal the spotlight

00:50:24   from the iPhone and maybe the iPods are gonna come

00:50:26   next month when they do iPads?

00:50:29   Because I'll eat my hat if they don't have new iPads in October.

00:50:33   Do you guys think that they're going to do iPods 2?

00:50:36   Or do you think maybe they're going to go two years without even touching the iPod line?

00:50:40   I kind of hope they don't.

00:50:41   I hope they don't touch it or I hope they don't skip it.

00:50:45   I hope they don't touch it.

00:50:46   Because it's simpler.

00:50:48   But at what point does the iPod bleed into the 5C?

00:50:55   Well I definitely think, obviously in terms of total cost, it's way more expensive.

00:51:01   In the US, $199, or even if you get the $99 one, the $99 5C combined with the mandatory

00:51:08   two year contract is, you're probably talking like $2,000.

00:51:12   Although I guess some of the carriers now have some cheaper plans like T-Mobile and

00:51:17   Sprint.

00:51:18   It's Verizon and AT&T where it's really expensive.

00:51:21   But realistically, practically, don't most families have a family-shared plan already?

00:51:28   What is the percentage of, let's say, kids who would want an iPod Touch that couldn't

00:51:34   get a 5C?

00:51:35   Yeah, I have no idea.

00:51:36   I don't know.

00:51:37   But it's also definitely the case where if you're just emotionally, if you just go in

00:51:41   the store, they're competing with each other because they're both bright and colorful.

00:51:47   One's metal and one's plastic, but the colors are the same.

00:51:49   It's the same sort of color scheme.

00:51:52   And it's, you know, I think both youthful and, you know, they're obviously the exact

00:51:57   same size and they do the same thing other than whether they have cellular networking.

00:52:01   Yeah, and I've always seen the iPod Touch as being for kids.

00:52:04   The funnest iPod ever.

00:52:06   Like these things kind of all point to that same, this is the demographic we know buys

00:52:11   these things and we're just going to shoot right for them.

00:52:15   Hmm.

00:52:16   um so my wife is is an is in a quilting guild so she knows a lot of a lot of

00:52:21   women in their 40s 50s 60s 70s a lot of them have really really cheap phones and an ipod touch

00:52:28   interesting you know i i would say all of them but but a fair number do do you know why is there

00:52:33   like a they just think that you know that they get the whatever the cheapest stupidest well free

00:52:39   thing that comes with their cheap you know um uh phone plan and and you know they're used to it

00:52:45   So maybe they've had a cell phone for 10 years.

00:52:48   But they think the iPod touch is pretty cool.

00:52:51   They like the apps.

00:52:52   You can get a phone that's just as good as the touch.

00:52:55   Even the cheapest phone is just as good as the touch and that comes free if you provide

00:52:59   the plan.

00:53:00   So what you're saying though is that John Siracusa is an old lady?

00:53:02   Yes, he is.

00:53:04   That explains all the quilting.

00:53:06   It is interesting.

00:53:07   I think older people, at least in America, I think they're particularly resistant to

00:53:12   smartly.

00:53:14   I think it's because they're wise and they're sensible

00:53:16   and they're not dummies like me.

00:53:18   They're very sensitive to anything

00:53:19   that's a recurring charge.

00:53:21   - Sure.

00:53:22   - And so they're A, less likely to even do anything

00:53:25   with a recurring charge and when there is,

00:53:27   like a monthly cell phone bill, they want it low.

00:53:29   - Mm-hmm.

00:53:30   - And they, you know, and they wanna know exactly

00:53:33   what it's gonna cost and that, you know,

00:53:34   if it's $29 a month, is it really $29 a month

00:53:38   or are you gonna tack on $15 in nonsense fees?

00:53:41   - Yeah, see, I think that it has more to do

00:53:44   with fear of change and fear of technology.

00:53:48   If you've always had this phone, keep this phone.

00:53:51   - Even though why would they also have a touch?

00:53:52   - Yeah, they still have a touch.

00:53:53   - Well, they're not complete xenophobes,

00:53:55   it's just that they don't wanna change.

00:53:57   The thing that they don't understand

00:53:58   is how their phone with the contract and all this stuff works

00:54:01   and if they change something, is it gonna be more money,

00:54:03   is it not more money,

00:54:04   they have to buy a different something or other plan?

00:54:06   - They made the leap to cell phones

00:54:08   and however they landed, they got that to work.

00:54:13   they don't want to screw with it.

00:54:14   - Why change?

00:54:15   - Yeah, exactly.

00:54:16   - They know they can get a call.

00:54:17   They know they can get a call.

00:54:18   - Well, my grandkids, their numbers are all probably down there.

00:54:21   - Yeah, and also, so the iPod Touch is Wi-Fi only.

00:54:25   Well, they would say, "Well, I don't have to whatever at the grocery store."

00:54:30   You know what I mean?

00:54:31   "I don't have to be connected at all moments."

00:54:33   - Probably not as obsessive about Twitter notifications as I say I am.

00:54:37   - If you look at Apple's quarterly numbers, it's definitely, you know, iPod sales overall

00:54:42   are definitely trending down.

00:54:44   And looking at the history of the iPod,

00:54:48   it's clearly being propped up by the iPod Touch,

00:54:51   which is, at heart, it's not really an iPod,

00:54:54   it's an iPhone without the phone.

00:54:57   But it still sells in decent numbers,

00:55:00   it's just way down from its heyday,

00:55:03   you know, 2005, 2006, 2007.

00:55:05   But I wonder, this is another one of those things

00:55:08   where I'm sure that the actual data that Apple has

00:55:11   fascinating. And who knows? It could be that maybe if they don't come out with any new

00:55:16   iPods this year, which would be the first time they've ever done that, maybe it's because

00:55:21   the whole line is sort of a legacy line and they're happy to keep selling it while it's

00:55:27   still a couple million a quarter.

00:55:29   Well, shades of skeuomorphism here where it used to be that the iPod was a physical device

00:55:33   you carried around and then it became an app on the phone and then the iPod app on your

00:55:38   phone was quietly changed to say music. It's not even called iPod anymore. So them getting

00:55:44   rid of the actual physical devices too kind of makes sense in its own way.

00:55:49   In the end, it's all going to be one thing.

00:55:52   Right.

00:55:53   The iPod line will disappear.

00:55:54   Well, but I wonder. I think maybe scenario B is that based on what we know an iPod is,

00:56:01   it's a thing that you put music on and you can play it. They've sort of perfected it.

00:56:08   Like there's no, why tweak it this year if it's not going to be any better? Like the

00:56:14   shuffle is, the current shuffle is great iPod.

00:56:16   Right. Sure.

00:56:17   Or, or if, excluding the touch, the iPod is something that you carry around that you play

00:56:24   music on that's smaller and tuned to a specific set of tasks, playing music and whatnot.

00:56:33   What if they are planning to release something like that, but it doesn't go in your pocket

00:56:38   anymore, it gets strapped to your wrist?

00:56:39   **Matt Stauffer:** Exactly.

00:56:40   That's sort of you've seen exactly where I'm going.

00:56:44   I've always thought that maybe if there's an iWatch, that it's think about it more as

00:56:48   like a next generation iPod.

00:56:52   And maybe that's something too.

00:56:53   I don't think we would see it this year.

00:56:55   I think this M7, because it's new, is meant only to be in the 5S.

00:57:01   Think about next year.

00:57:02   What if they put an M7 in something like the Shuffle, and maybe some of the Shuffles come

00:57:08   with a watch strap?

00:57:09   Now, you've got a thing that … Combine that with a little bit of the little Bluetooth,

00:57:16   the airdrop style Bluetooth communication where you don't have to like do like a connect

00:57:24   it with a cable sync process. The sync just happens over the air when it get when your

00:57:29   iPod shuffle gets near your iPhone or your iPad.

00:57:32   And there's like a ping thing that happens every time interval.

00:57:37   Right.

00:57:38   Yeah. In that way, Brent can put his iWatch on and go for his run kind of back and then

00:57:41   it just talks to his phone and everything works.

00:57:43   Right, and it's all coordinated.

00:57:46   The time you spend with both your iPhone and your watch, or whatever it is, the little

00:57:52   clip-on thing, there's no duplication of it because they know they're near each other.

00:57:58   In fact, maybe they could almost double-check.

00:58:01   I had them at 1,000 steps.

00:58:03   The other device said 1,100.

00:58:05   Let's call it 1,050.

00:58:08   But it wouldn't go down as 2,100.

00:58:11   You know what it reminds me of is the play count in iTunes.

00:58:15   - Oh, sure.

00:58:16   - It's like you take your phone,

00:58:17   you listen to music in your car,

00:58:19   and you come back and your phone syncs to your computer

00:58:21   and the play count in iTunes gets updated.

00:58:24   - Huh, I never knew that.

00:58:25   - Yeah. - That's cool.

00:58:26   It should work.

00:58:27   - I know exactly how many times I've listened to any song.

00:58:29   - So that sort of thinking combined

00:58:32   with no actual manual intervention to make the sync happen.

00:58:38   You know, you set them up, you pair them at one point in the beginning and in the future,

00:58:43   all their hand shaking just happens silently over the air.

00:58:46   Let's also think maybe that if these, if the iWatch or whatever they're going to call it,

00:58:53   maybe it does have not just Wi-Fi but some kind of cellular data thing that you can get

00:58:58   on it.

00:58:59   I mean, that would make it much more useful out in the wild.

00:59:02   Yeah, it would.

00:59:04   It would.

00:59:05   I think especially of notifications.

00:59:07   - Right, right.

00:59:08   - That's something important that I need to see

00:59:11   is what I'm expecting there.

00:59:13   - And the way these things work now

00:59:14   is that it talks to your phone over Bluetooth

00:59:16   and it just picks up the notifications from your phone.

00:59:18   But if it's another one of these ties to your,

00:59:20   like if I've just got my watch on

00:59:22   and it ties to my Apple ID,

00:59:24   then wherever I am, it could be,

00:59:26   at some interval, sending all of my step count data

00:59:31   up to the cloud and you just get sync.

00:59:33   - Could be.

00:59:36   Third and final sponsor, these guys are great.

00:59:39   I love them.

00:59:40   I mean, they're actually, there's like 10% of my body weight is their product.

00:59:44   It's Tonks coffee, back on the show.

00:59:47   And a week like this, now I've been away from home, this is the fourth day away from home,

00:59:50   I fly home tomorrow.

00:59:52   We've had some good coffee out here.

00:59:54   I had some good coffee in San Francisco.

00:59:55   I'll tell you what, I miss my Tonks back home.

00:59:58   I really do.

00:59:59   I'm starting to get the shakes.

01:00:01   For those of you who don't know them,

01:00:02   Tonks is a small online coffee company.

01:00:07   They source beans from all over the world themselves.

01:00:14   They roast it themselves,

01:00:16   and then they ship it to the people

01:00:18   who are their customers.

01:00:19   You sign up for a subscription,

01:00:21   totally reasonable rate for what I would argue

01:00:23   is as good a coffee as you can get anywhere in the world.

01:00:26   And you sign up for how frequently you want it.

01:00:30   I get it every two weeks.

01:00:31   I get a big bag and it's just magic.

01:00:34   Just every two weeks, a bag of fantastic,

01:00:37   amazing coffee just shows up at my door.

01:00:40   One of the little things as time goes on

01:00:43   that I just love about Tonks, number one,

01:00:45   I've still never gotten a batch

01:00:47   that I didn't think was great.

01:00:49   But I get batches of coffee that I would not ordinarily buy.

01:00:52   Usually, before Tonks, what I would do is

01:00:54   I would find one kind of coffee that I liked

01:00:57   and then I would just buy it, that exact coffee,

01:00:59   week after week after week.

01:01:00   TONX gives me like a variety and sort of opens my palate to some different coffees that I

01:01:05   wouldn't ordinarily try.

01:01:06   You just put your faith in TONX and they give you great coffee.

01:01:11   That sounds pretty good.

01:01:12   I'm the guy who drinks the same exact thing every day.

01:01:16   You should think about it.

01:01:17   Here's how you find out more.

01:01:18   You go to tonx.org.

01:01:19   T-O-N-X and you'll find out more.

01:01:22   But I cannot recommend them highly enough.

01:01:24   I'm looking up right now to see if they have decaf.

01:01:28   What are we going to do with him, Brent?

01:01:29   I can't have caffeine.

01:01:32   I get all the...

01:01:33   You can go to tonks.org too and I guess that'll work.

01:01:35   I'm not real good with URLs.

01:01:38   You could also just Google "tonks" T-O-N-X and it'll get...

01:01:41   T-O-N-X?

01:01:42   That's what I did.

01:01:43   I Googled it.

01:01:44   But anyway, go there.

01:01:45   If you like coffee and you still haven't signed up for tonks, you're nuts.

01:01:48   And it looks like they have decaf, so if you're like me and...

01:01:52   I mean, don't ever admit that in front of John.

01:01:54   No.

01:01:55   So last...

01:01:56   Well, I just don't see the point of decaf.

01:01:57   I don't know.

01:01:58   - It tastes the same.

01:01:59   Well, ish. - No, it doesn't taste the same.

01:02:01   - It tastes enough like--

01:02:02   - Well, there's a small point,

01:02:04   which is occasionally at night,

01:02:06   a little coffee sounds good,

01:02:07   and you really just don't wanna be up all night.

01:02:09   I love, you know, not every day, not every week,

01:02:12   not even every month, but on occasion, I'll do that.

01:02:14   - Yeah.

01:02:15   And I'm, you know, I guess I'm--

01:02:16   You're talking me into it, 'cause I guess the thing is,

01:02:18   I love the way good coffee tastes.

01:02:20   - Oh, sure. - So there is something.

01:02:22   - When you talk about decaf versus caffeinated,

01:02:24   you're treating it like the drug is what matters.

01:02:25   Do you not like the flavor?

01:02:27   If you don't like the flavor, what do you care?

01:02:28   Well the process of de-drugifying it changes it a little bit, but not so much that I mean

01:02:33   I haven't had caffeinated coffee in so long than yeah

01:02:36   I honestly don't remember what the difference is if there's one all right now

01:02:40   I feel like well you wouldn't drink zero proof whiskey either even if it was really good

01:02:43   Well, there are people who do wine tastings

01:02:46   We spit out the wine those are people well. Let's say

01:02:50   Air quotes always thought it'd be great to get into like a wine tasting like a really serious one and

01:02:57   and don't spit out the God damn hinges.

01:02:59   Just get smashed.

01:03:00   And everybody else is all hoity-toity talking about the mouthfeel and the tannins and all

01:03:05   this stuff.

01:03:06   And there's me and Brent at the end of the line just sloshed, drink it out of the bottle

01:03:12   with an empty bucket.

01:03:14   As Brent takes a drink of his whiskey.

01:03:15   I know it's so incongruous because wine is so snobby.

01:03:19   It's the snobby booze.

01:03:21   Right, yeah.

01:03:22   I think beer is becoming the snobby alcohol.

01:03:24   Yeah, but it never will be the way wine is.

01:03:27   And I'm not even putting it down.

01:03:28   I'm not a wine drinker, but I guess I am putting it down.

01:03:35   But I understand that it really is so hard to make good wine that it's worth the money

01:03:42   because it's supply and demand and that it might actually be worth it to buy an $80 bottle

01:03:47   of wine.

01:03:48   But I just find it so funny that they get so dressed up.

01:03:52   wine is a very dressy thing and then they're spitting in the buckets.

01:03:55   Yeah, right.

01:03:56   It's like you're in a baseball.

01:03:59   Monty Python would have made it up if it wasn't already true.

01:04:03   It's like some wine tastings are as elegant an experience as you're going to find and

01:04:09   here's these fancy people spitting grape juice into a bucket.

01:04:12   Well, I guess it's better than fancy people being smashed out of their minds.

01:04:17   I don't know.

01:04:19   I think fancy people are probably improved by being smashed out of their minds.

01:04:23   Dave Asprey I think drinking some of it would probably

01:04:24   loosen them up a little.

01:04:25   Jon Streeter Yeah, totally.

01:04:26   Dave Asprey I mean that's their problem.

01:04:27   Jon Strey All right, speaking about getting loosened

01:04:29   up, let's talk about, let's wrap the show up and talk about iOS 7 and maybe tie it in

01:04:34   a little bit with what we've been doing with Vesper and some of the design challenges that

01:04:38   we face.

01:04:42   We were just talking about it today and Dave, you said something to the effect of that when

01:04:47   Vesper when we unveiled it back in June and then iOS 7 came out a week later an awful

01:04:54   lot of people said wow you guys you know sort of saw where the puck was going you guys kind

01:04:57   of have an iOS 7 looking app before iOS 7 came out and then it followed that up with

01:05:03   well you guys probably won't have much to do to update the design for iOS 7.

01:05:09   Well the app couldn't take more than a weekend in the first place.

01:05:13   Well like any good app.

01:05:14   We knock it out. I mean you're Brent Simmons you run the news wire. Why is this taking you so long?

01:05:18   The thing wasn't even designed. It was basically, hey Brent, write us a note taking app.

01:05:22   I scribbled some stuff in crayon, mailed it to Brent, mailed it through the actual postal mail.

01:05:27   The truth is we, I think we ran into more design problems getting this thing to where we want it to be for iOS 7 than we did with the original version.

01:05:36   Yes. I think a lot of it is because we were speculating and we were trying pretty hard to get a sense of what the future was going to look like.

01:05:45   And I'm not going to say it's an accident that we got what we did because we put a lot of work into it, but I am surprised by how close we got.

01:05:52   For better or worse, I'm surprised that we got as close as we did.

01:05:57   And when you look at what iOS 7 actually is,

01:06:01   the way that that all turned out, we're close,

01:06:04   but there's differences that are not just

01:06:07   a quick cosmetic fix.

01:06:09   There are differences that required rethinking

01:06:11   the way we did some things.

01:06:13   - Well, and there's definitely some differences

01:06:14   that really, I mean, not to be full of ourselves,

01:06:19   but honestly, they come down to,

01:06:21   if Apple had asked our opinion before iOS 7 came out,

01:06:24   we would have recommended they do something different.

01:06:28   For example--

01:06:29   - There's no non-dicky way to say that.

01:06:30   - Right, and you've written about it on your blog, Dave,

01:06:33   but the status bar, the thing at the top of the screen

01:06:36   where there's the time, the carrier, the signal strength,

01:06:40   that's one where we just disagree

01:06:45   with what Apple's done in iOS 7,

01:06:46   and it was really, really hard to figure out

01:06:49   what to do with Vesper in that regard.

01:06:51   - Just shaking my head in frustration.

01:06:54   I look at that thing and it doesn't make any sense to me.

01:06:56   The reason, I get why they wanted it to look like

01:07:00   the entire screen was the app,

01:07:01   and like extracting the, what's the word I'm looking for?

01:07:05   Abstracting the hardware from the software.

01:07:10   But the trouble is that the status bar

01:07:12   has always been hardware.

01:07:13   That's always been, it's all hardware indicators.

01:07:16   So it's not something I have control over.

01:07:18   - Yeah, it's a throwback to like dumb phones

01:07:20   where there'd be an LED line

01:07:22   would give you signal strength and the time.

01:07:25   Right.

01:07:26   But now they've taken what was an OS level problem of showing me that hardware information

01:07:31   and made it an app level problem toward now I as a designer have to account for what they've

01:07:35   done in a way that I one have no control over.

01:07:38   That's the big issue.

01:07:39   We have so little control.

01:07:40   We can say be dark or be light.

01:07:43   But that means our design has to be so that it's readable.

01:07:47   We can't do anything too weird up top.

01:07:50   You can't do anything where the left half of your screen is dark and the right half

01:07:54   is light.

01:07:55   Because then you're just screwed.

01:07:56   - Unless you draw a fake status bar background.

01:07:58   - Right.

01:07:59   - And we've, can I talk about this at all?

01:08:03   We toyed with that idea.

01:08:04   We thought seriously about do we just draw a black rectangle there and say screw Apple,

01:08:08   they're wrong.

01:08:09   - Right.

01:08:10   - And believe me, I'm still kind of tempted.

01:08:14   - It would have been easiest to program.

01:08:16   I would have been done with it really quick.

01:08:17   - I've gotten used to it.

01:08:18   I mean, it's not, I still hate it, but I've gotten used to it enough to where it doesn't

01:08:22   enrage me.

01:08:23   And I can look at the work we've done, and I'm happy with where we are.

01:08:26   It took way more effort to get here than it should have.

01:08:29   Part of what frustrates me about it is that, to me, they started with a status bar problem.

01:08:35   And this is the original iPhone in 2007, because there were a couple of different styles.

01:08:39   There was the gray style and a black style.

01:08:41   Oh, right.

01:08:42   Yeah.

01:08:43   I don't know if there was a third style.

01:08:44   But it was always kind of up in the air if you went anywhere non-standard UI-wise in

01:08:50   your app, which status bar you were supposed to use.

01:08:53   I think that the HIG went back and forth on it.

01:08:56   I've got an opinion on this.

01:08:58   And then the iPad came out and they did something interesting.

01:09:02   When the iPad came out, the status bar was black.

01:09:06   And that was it.

01:09:07   And your options were show the status bar, and if you do, you're going to get a black

01:09:11   one.

01:09:12   Or don't show it.

01:09:13   or you're showing a full screen video.

01:09:15   And that's it.

01:09:16   And to me, that was so clearly what they should have done with the iPhone.

01:09:20   And I honestly thought, this is back 2010 when the iPad came out, and when I noticed

01:09:25   that there was no gray status bar there, always black.

01:09:28   And I thought it always looked great.

01:09:29   And it looked great on both white ones and black ones hardware.

01:09:32   I thought, "Well, this is great.

01:09:34   Next year when the iPhone comes out, they'll go with the black status bar."

01:09:37   And then instead, they went with the goofy color thing.

01:09:41   The weird--

01:09:43   Extracting from the nav bar tint color thing.

01:09:45   Right.

01:09:45   And it made it, in my opinion, worse.

01:09:49   But it was still, I think, better than this,

01:09:52   because you at least had the option as an app developer to go black.

01:09:55   You could say, just give me a black status bar.

01:09:57   And if you look in the App Store, almost all apps that I would say are nice,

01:10:02   they all have the black status bar on iOS 6,

01:10:05   because that's the sensible solution.

01:10:07   It's almost like third-party developers are screaming at Apple, "You solved this with

01:10:11   the iPad.

01:10:12   Just have a black status bar."

01:10:13   Yeah.

01:10:14   I mean, you look at iOS 6.

01:10:15   I can't think of a single app that I admire that uses the gray status bar.

01:10:20   No.

01:10:21   No.

01:10:22   And I think that the way, the semantics of it are that 98 percent of the screen is yours,

01:10:30   meaning the app.

01:10:32   And we'll just take this little strip up here for the system.

01:10:34   Right.

01:10:35   Because that needs to go somewhere.

01:10:36   Look, it's the user needs to see this stuff.

01:10:39   We got to show it.

01:10:40   We got to put it somewhere.

01:10:41   We're going to stick it up here and in this part of the screen and you've got

01:10:44   everything below that, we're sorry, but like, we'll take care of this.

01:10:48   And now what they're saying is you have to show this stuff.

01:10:52   You have to deal with it.

01:10:53   And F U you figure it out.

01:10:56   It's really hard if you customize your, your UI at all.

01:11:01   Yeah.

01:11:02   To deal with.

01:11:03   And we've talked about how the UI is always going to be Helvetica.

01:11:07   The UI pieces are always going to be Helvetica system level UI will always be

01:11:11   Helvetica.

01:11:11   And so it's as much as it would be nice to have any kind of typography control

01:11:15   over things like what a UI alert looks like or when, um, like, uh,

01:11:20   activity sheets or the status bar text,

01:11:24   as long as it's all consistent, that's, that's fine. But

01:11:32   It's still, it's another, it's another example of they've got full control over

01:11:37   this thing, but it's your problem.

01:11:38   I never found it jarring typographically when, you know, we use a custom fund

01:11:44   other, a lot of apps use custom funds, never found it jarring in iOS six.

01:11:48   When the status bar was black and had white Helvetica texts and any app

01:11:53   underneath was set in a different thing.

01:11:55   Cause it seemed like here's two different regions, little tiny bit of the system at

01:11:58   the top app down below now that it's integrated with.

01:12:02   With the nav bar, it does, I think.

01:12:05   I think any app that uses custom fonts, it's jarring in a way that, you know.

01:12:09   Well, it's just dishonest.

01:12:11   The status bar is not part of our app.

01:12:13   Right.

01:12:14   I think dishonest is the best word to use there.

01:12:16   Right.

01:12:17   It's almost like in UI terms, it's almost like a parasite now.

01:12:20   Yeah.

01:12:21   Yeah.

01:12:22   You can tell I really like it.

01:12:25   What else?

01:12:26   What other problems did we have?

01:12:28   - Live blurring turned, you know,

01:12:29   in all the wonderful demos Apple did and everything,

01:12:33   it looked like live blurring would be an easy thing to do

01:12:37   and there would be APIs for it and it would be all over.

01:12:39   - Yeah, I don't--

01:12:40   - No, no, not really.

01:12:42   - Yeah, I don't wanna give away too many surprises,

01:12:44   but we were trying to do live blurring with something

01:12:45   and it just was a nightmare.

01:12:47   'Cause the only way you can do it

01:12:48   is if you use the toolbar or nav bar.

01:12:51   - Yeah.

01:12:52   - And so we wanted something larger than that

01:12:53   and we just drew a giant toolbar

01:12:54   over the thing that we wanted to blur.

01:12:56   - Seriously, developers, here's your tip.

01:12:57   Make a UI toolbar, make whatever size you want,

01:12:59   treat it just like any other UI view,

01:13:01   and then you've got live blurring.

01:13:02   - Yeah, it works. - It's weird.

01:13:04   - Performance sucks.

01:13:05   - Terrible, it's terrible.

01:13:06   - Awesome.

01:13:07   - So, and I guess that's probably why they didn't expose it.

01:13:10   You know, and they've kept the live blurring to themselves

01:13:12   is that there are some serious performance problems with it.

01:13:15   And so they're doing it in small doses

01:13:18   and knowing, they know exactly how much

01:13:22   live blurring performance problems

01:13:24   are gonna be on the phone

01:13:25   because the only people who get it is the system itself.

01:13:28   - Well, the live blurring, the reason we wound up

01:13:31   going a slightly different direction

01:13:32   is not because of the performance.

01:13:33   I mean, that was definitely worth considering,

01:13:35   but it was more that we'd have to account

01:13:37   for what happens on devices that aren't capable

01:13:39   of doing the blur.

01:13:40   - Sure.

01:13:41   - And now we're designing for two different things,

01:13:42   and we wound up trying something else

01:13:43   and we liked the way that looked better.

01:13:47   - The other thing that we ran into,

01:13:50   and I guess I don't know if we wanna spoil it or not,

01:13:52   but we can at least talk about,

01:13:54   Maybe we won't say what we came up with, but the question of all of Apple's apps

01:13:59   for iOS 7 have a white nav bar at the top.

01:14:03   Are colored nav bars flat, whatever, is a colored nav bar passe?

01:14:11   **Beserat Debele:** Apple is really setting a tempo here.

01:14:16   I don't know if they mean to or not.

01:14:17   It almost seems like it's unintentional, but they're really setting a tempo of everything

01:14:21   is going to have a white nav bar.

01:14:23   I'm fearful of this historically, the stock apps that come with the phone,

01:14:26   Apple stock apps have always had, uh, hints suggestions for what third-party

01:14:32   developers should do with their apps.

01:14:34   Like everything from the compass app to the, to the stocks app to, to, uh, maps.

01:14:39   I've all had like one or two things that were a little bit custom or suggested

01:14:43   what you should do in this kind of situation.

01:14:45   And with every app now having that white nav bar, I'm fearful that developers are

01:14:50   going to be turning out apps that all look the same.

01:14:52   I just don't I just don't think I don't think it'll turn out that way. I think developers will be like hey

01:14:58   You know you know we have a color scheme. We have some branding whatever yeah, and you're probably right colored knife navbar

01:15:05   Yeah, I I don't in an apple may even complain to them, but I don't think it's going to change I

01:15:10   Think that based just on the few screenshots they showed at the event

01:15:16   this week of

01:15:19   third-party iOS apps that are in development,

01:15:22   and I forget who, a couple of them are named,

01:15:24   but I saw a couple of them just in the screenshots

01:15:26   that flashed by real quickly that had colored nav bars.

01:15:30   And they were flatter or totally flat,

01:15:33   but they, it seems to me like even just the ones

01:15:37   that Apple already has been in communication with

01:15:40   behind the scenes, color is not going away.

01:15:43   - Yeah, I guess my bigger concern is that

01:15:45   developers are gonna do it,

01:15:46   but they're gonna do it with no guidance.

01:15:48   There's nothing, Apple's given us nothing to show us how we're supposed to do this.

01:15:51   And so we're all just kind of fumbling in the dark.

01:15:54   So the guidance will be peer to peer, right?

01:15:57   We'll see what other developers do.

01:15:58   They'll see what we do.

01:16:00   And I think consensus is, if that's a word, kind of form based on that.

01:16:06   So we don't really understand iOS 7 from Apple's apps alone.

01:16:09   We understand it because we see what Icom factory and what everybody else does.

01:16:14   And it's always kind of been that way.

01:16:15   There's the things that we learned from Apple and there's the things that we learned from

01:16:18   Third parties right this just seems like Apple had an opportunity and they threw it away, and it's not clear to me. Why hmm?

01:16:25   They had an opportunity to show what we're supposed to do and it might just be that they don't know they don't know how to

01:16:31   Handle color and like well you guys figure it out

01:16:33   We did this stupid thing with the status bar and now we have no idea what to do and how we didn't know what to do

01:16:37   yeah, and and

01:16:39   We talked about this before the show

01:16:41   But I think that it's possible it's possible I could see how maybe like when they were doing

01:16:45   and I was seven, and they wanted to,

01:16:50   "Let's start with a clean slate.

01:16:52   Let's have no preconceptions from the old look and feel."

01:16:54   That maybe they tried to get away with navbars completely.

01:16:57   And if there was going to be a back button,

01:17:01   just draw it with no background.

01:17:02   And if there was a button,

01:17:05   just draw the buttons over the content.

01:17:07   And some of the apps, like the Weather app

01:17:09   that fit on a screen, they're like that.

01:17:11   Not that Weather had a navbar before, but you could see it.

01:17:13   or I think the stocks app is another example.

01:17:16   - The more widget-y apps.

01:17:17   - Right. - Right.

01:17:18   - But the problem you run into,

01:17:21   if you're just gonna draw the button with nothing,

01:17:24   no bar behind it that stretches across

01:17:26   is what do you do with scrolling content?

01:17:27   All of a sudden your words are being covered by a button

01:17:31   and that doesn't look right.

01:17:32   And I almost wonder if that's what they tried,

01:17:34   realized that scrolling content was a problem,

01:17:37   and then they went white with the background,

01:17:39   but in their minds,

01:17:40   they don't even see it as a white nav bar.

01:17:42   They see that as no nav bar, but just that it's white so that it obscures the content

01:17:47   as it scrolls underneath.

01:17:48   And maybe the--

01:17:49   Well, and it's a blurred, often, nav bar too, right?

01:17:51   So you still kind of see--

01:17:52   You get the context of the scrolling content.

01:17:54   And that's interesting.

01:17:55   You can still do that with a colored nav bar.

01:17:58   It doesn't work in quite the same way.

01:17:59   But there's also how do you handle different types of content, especially images versus

01:18:03   text.

01:18:04   These things show up differently behind a blurred nav bar.

01:18:06   These things would show up differently behind a text button.

01:18:11   they pair differently with a text button.

01:18:14   - So I've been running iOS 7 betas,

01:18:17   I think since beta 3.

01:18:18   I think that was like two weeks, four weeks after W.

01:18:21   - Yeah, I think we went up switching

01:18:22   to the beta on the same day.

01:18:23   - Right.

01:18:24   And I can definitely say, and again,

01:18:28   we just griped about some things.

01:18:30   There's definitely some things

01:18:31   that I don't like about iOS 7.

01:18:32   But overall, I really do like it.

01:18:35   And the thing that really jumps out

01:18:37   is when I use apps that aren't updated for iOS 7,

01:18:40   which is a lot of apps at this point

01:18:41   because none of them in the app store.

01:18:43   It's really only ones that I'm beta testing

01:18:45   that could be updated for 7 or Apple's own ones.

01:18:48   But every single time, it's like, ugh.

01:18:52   It's like a punch in the gut.

01:18:54   - It's that keyboard man.

01:18:55   - Right, yeah, the keyboard man.

01:18:58   It just looks so chunky.

01:18:59   - Yeah, it looks syrupy, like it looks slow.

01:19:04   - It adds five pounds to the feel of the iPad in my hand.

01:19:07   Really does.

01:19:08   - I know, you know, I could be,

01:19:10   This is one of those places where I might be just too blinded by my own preferences,

01:19:13   but I really do think that normal people are a lot of normal people.

01:19:19   When they upgrade their phone to iOS 7, which the statistics show they do very quickly,

01:19:25   I think that they're going to be grossed out by apps that haven't been updated for

01:19:30   7.

01:19:31   Mad Fientist Yeah.

01:19:32   My initial thing, I was talking to Justin Williams about this, and he made the point

01:19:35   that when, when the, the, the, the switch gets flipped and everybody sees that

01:19:41   there's an update available and they hit the button, normal people hit the button

01:19:43   to update their, their OS, their phone restarts, or that had, they, they set it

01:19:47   to do before they go to bed, they're going to wake up and look at their phone.

01:19:49   And they're going to be shocked.

01:19:51   But I don't, I, I've, maybe it's that I've had enough time to look at it and

01:19:56   think about it and get used to it.

01:19:57   Um, I just don't think it's me that big of a shock.

01:19:58   I think maybe there's going to be a couple of support calls, but, uh, for the

01:20:01   most part, people have been pretty well informed that there's a change coming.

01:20:04   And despite looking different, it's still, it's not even that it doesn't feel different.

01:20:10   It feels very different, but in a very good way, but it still feels familiar.

01:20:14   I don't think it's going to be as jarring to normal people as I have.

01:20:17   I don't know.

01:20:18   Never underestimate people's hatred of any change at all.

01:20:21   And this is really something.

01:20:24   Yeah.

01:20:25   And I think it's, you know, there's no doubt in my mind, I think Apple's done a good job

01:20:29   with it.

01:20:30   I think it's a better design for an OS by far.

01:20:32   I think it's built to last.

01:20:33   I like it a lot better.

01:20:35   I think in the long run it's going to be fine.

01:20:37   I think Apple's pretty confident of all those things that I just said.

01:20:40   But I think even Apple has no idea what that first month reaction is going to be like.

01:20:45   Well, I guess maybe a better point to make would be that even if the reaction is bad,

01:20:50   Apple's willing to take that hit.

01:20:51   Right.

01:20:52   Well, and they did it with Maps.

01:20:53   I mean, they knew Maps was going to be bad, but I think they were surprised by how bad

01:20:57   people considered it.

01:20:59   Right.

01:21:00   IOS, I think they're confident rightfully so that people might be surprised at

01:21:04   first, but we'll end up being very happy for the change.

01:21:07   These are things that kind of need to happen.

01:21:08   Where I get upset is when people will talk about how IOS seven is just a visual

01:21:13   change. Like it's all, it's all just a new coat of paint kind of a thing.

01:21:17   When to me it feels so much better than iOS six. And if,

01:21:22   if you, if you only see iOS seven as a visual change,

01:21:24   I have to assume that you haven't used it because it feels so much better.

01:21:29   And again, familiar.

01:21:31   So I can see where there might be some confusion,

01:21:32   but there's just so many details

01:21:33   that are better thought out.

01:21:36   - Well, and I think multitasking is one example

01:21:38   where I think the original iPhone didn't have it.

01:21:41   I mean, I'm not even talking about

01:21:42   the computer science level multitasking.

01:21:44   I'm saying can you double tap home and switch apps?

01:21:47   - Right, oh yeah.

01:21:48   - Not getting into the, you know,

01:21:50   that it was Unix and then had--

01:21:51   (laughing)

01:21:53   It didn't have it.

01:21:55   And I'm sure they've had some basic idea

01:21:58   of how they were gonna do it.

01:21:59   Maybe they even already knew, "Well, we'll just double tap the home screen and we'll

01:22:03   show something."

01:22:04   But whenever you design something, when you actually have to do it for real, it's like

01:22:08   that's when the shit hits the fan and you always run into unexpected problems.

01:22:12   And the multitasking interface on iOS 6 and 5 and 4 and 3, whenever they introduced it,

01:22:18   it was always felt a little tacked on.

01:22:21   And whereas the multitasking on iOS 7 feels natural because there's this, the animations

01:22:27   play into this where your icon flashes when you launch it, zooms in and that becomes your

01:22:35   app.

01:22:36   And when you double-tap for multitasking, the app gets sucked back a little bit.

01:22:40   You know, the three-dimensionality of the animations conveys to you how the multitasking

01:22:45   works.

01:22:46   It's funny, going back to the things that we got right ahead of time, we used to say

01:22:51   z-axis because we don't push over in Vesper to get to the detail view of a note.

01:22:55   It just pulls in.

01:22:57   It zooms in, it's all z-axis navigation.

01:22:59   And that's the world we live in now.

01:23:02   I think that's great.

01:23:03   I like that every app feels that way.

01:23:04   I like the way that folders are set up now,

01:23:06   to where when you tap on the folder,

01:23:08   it just comes forward.

01:23:09   And then the app comes forward out of that.

01:23:11   Everything is all on the z-axis.

01:23:13   You're either moving into or out of the thing you want.

01:23:15   You're not, and that's even the wrong way to say it.

01:23:18   The things that you want are appearing

01:23:20   and disappearing in a logical way.

01:23:21   There's not as much spatial movement

01:23:23   as there was in iOS 6 and before.

01:23:26   The APIs haven't totally caught up to all that yet,

01:23:30   which is interesting.

01:23:31   It's still easier to move left and right

01:23:35   using a standard navigation controller.

01:23:37   And you can write custom transitions

01:23:39   and do all that kind of stuff,

01:23:40   but it's still nowhere near as easy.

01:23:43   It's still a lot of extra work to do.

01:23:45   - It's like early days of SpriteKit, right?

01:23:47   - Yeah, right.

01:23:48   - Yeah, so over time.

01:23:49   - Yeah, over time, yeah, it's getting there.

01:23:51   But to me, that's a huge fundamental change in 7,

01:23:55   and one that I quite like.

01:23:56   - Yeah, if there's anything that excites me the most

01:23:59   about iOS 7, it's what it means for iOS 8.

01:24:01   - Yeah. - Right?

01:24:02   - That we're on a trajectory now that is genuinely excited.

01:24:05   - It does feel ungrateful that it still,

01:24:07   it hasn't shipped to consumers yet,

01:24:09   but we've already, we're building up our,

01:24:11   really, this is what the whole show has been about,

01:24:13   is building up to our list of,

01:24:14   here's what we really want in iOS 8.

01:24:16   Like, fix the status bar, fix the status bar.

01:24:18   - If there's any one thing, if anybody at Apple's listening,

01:24:20   just fix that status bar, that's all I ask.

01:24:22   - Having used it and gotten, you know,

01:24:24   It's like now when I see or I use an older device or see my wife's phone or something

01:24:28   running iOS 6, it's like, "Oh, man, that's so old."

01:24:32   But the one thing that really jumps out at me, and it's not a unique observation.

01:24:36   A lot of people, right after WWDC, kind of picked up on this.

01:24:40   But in practice, to me, it's very tangible, is everybody says iOS 7 is flat and iOS 6

01:24:47   was not flat.

01:24:48   But conceptually, iOS 6 was very flat in terms of you'd open an app and the app was just

01:24:55   there and you'd go left to right sideways as you navigated through the app.

01:24:59   Right.

01:25:00   It felt like sheets of paper being moved around a desk.

01:25:02   Right.

01:25:03   The 3D-ness of, like I said, the multitasking, that there's these levels.

01:25:07   There's this bottom level, which is the apps.

01:25:09   That's your home screen.

01:25:10   Then there's a mid-level, which is when you're multitasking and you're switching between

01:25:14   running apps.

01:25:16   It's the actual card, and I know Palm, the webOS had a very similar multitasking interface

01:25:21   with the cards, but it's the way that that card zooms up to fill the screen.

01:25:25   It's like a third level of zoom.

01:25:27   Now you're really zoomed in and you're in the app.

01:25:30   It really gives you more of a sense of place, like where you are in terms of which apps

01:25:35   you're switching between.

01:25:36   Right.

01:25:37   And Flat, when people complain about Flat and iOS 7, they're just talking about the

01:25:41   visual.

01:25:42   And again, of all this focus on the visual, there's so much more that people are missing.

01:25:46   so much easier to talk about the visual though than to talk about other things.

01:25:50   It's sure visually flat, but conceptually very much non-flat. Whereas iOS 6 was

01:25:57   animation and navigation was very flat, but visually very lumpy.

01:26:03   I think in terms of like, is this going to be controversial when it rolls out and you're one,

01:26:08   okay, yes, update me when I'm plugged in away from perhaps getting a very major surprise.

01:26:14   I side, I think, with Dave.

01:26:16   Clearly, you can't have 100 million customers and not have some of them scream Bloody Mary

01:26:21   no matter what you do.

01:26:23   But I think it's going to go over pretty well.

01:26:25   I think that there's enough awareness that this is happening that there will be fewer

01:26:32   people surprised than some people think.

01:26:34   I was talking to a friend of mine.

01:26:37   She had called me right after the iOS 7 announcement and she was super excited about iOS 7.

01:26:41   She's not a technical person.

01:26:42   She doesn't work in this industry, but she saw, she watched the event

01:26:45   cause she loves her phone.

01:26:46   She loves using Apple stuff and she sees the stuff and seven,

01:26:49   she gets genuinely excited.

01:26:50   And she now, no, I could see a scenario where this is just like,

01:26:58   like almost scandalously bad.

01:27:01   Like there's a worldwide revolt and you know, which lasts two weeks and

01:27:05   then people are like, Oh no, actually I like it, but I mean, it could be just,

01:27:09   I don't want that to happen, but it would be kind of interesting.

01:27:13   It could be really, really noisy.

01:27:15   Dave Asprey And don't underestimate the news media's

01:27:18   desire for anti-Apple stories or Apple's made another mistake stories and blown out

01:27:26   of proportion.

01:27:27   Adam Back (01h00m

01:27:27   - Well, the end of that story is that she's got

01:27:30   seven running on her phone now,

01:27:31   so that she can, mostly so she can test stuff for us.

01:27:34   And loves it, like genuinely loves it.

01:27:37   Like genuinely excited about all of the new things it does

01:27:39   and the way it works and it's just so much better,

01:27:41   so much easier.

01:27:42   And that's my template for what I expect

01:27:44   the rest of the world to do.

01:27:46   Even if people resist it at first,

01:27:47   they're gonna spend a day or two with it

01:27:49   and they're gonna love it.

01:27:50   - We should wrap up soon, but here's one last topic

01:27:53   would be with, and a lot of it, it gets to the stuff

01:27:57   that's not just cosmetic, but even the cosmetic stuff,

01:27:59   it's hard to straddle iOS 6 and 7.

01:28:02   So how many apps do you think are gonna go iOS 7 only?

01:28:06   - Oh man, I hope all of them.

01:28:07   - A lot of people I talk to really wanna do iOS 7 only,

01:28:12   but they have constraints, which is bosses, clients,

01:28:16   whatever, and those people often tend

01:28:19   to be very conservative.

01:28:20   They think that you have to support back

01:28:21   to 4.3 or whatever.

01:28:23   - I get that there are reasons why you need to do that.

01:28:27   - The percentage of people who are on iOS 6 now,

01:28:29   is it 90, is it more than 90?

01:28:31   - iOS 6, I think it's more than 90, like 95.

01:28:33   Something ridiculous, something that's like unheard of.

01:28:35   - Right, and I think no matter what,

01:28:37   I think it's, you know, I think iOS 7 will reach

01:28:39   similar levels in its similar time frame.

01:28:41   - Sure.

01:28:42   I would say even faster.

01:28:43   - Right, so I do, I wonder, I mean,

01:28:45   I can see not going iOS 7 only on day one,

01:28:47   because there is a ramp up.

01:28:49   It's not like 95% of people are gonna upgrade

01:28:51   in the first week.

01:28:51   - Wait, wait, wait, iOS 5 didn't have auto update,

01:28:55   that didn't have the over-the-air update, right?

01:28:57   That came in six?

01:28:58   - I think so.

01:28:59   - So I'm expecting, I would expect then that even more,

01:29:01   it's even faster that we get to the same percentage.

01:29:03   - Yeah.

01:29:05   - But I think it's very reasonable to do it

01:29:08   within a couple of month timeframe of it.

01:29:10   I really do. - Absolutely.

01:29:11   - And I don't think you're gonna leave many customers behind

01:29:13   and I think the people you do are probably not,

01:29:15   it's just not a big enough number to really worry about.

01:29:19   - Right. - Yeah.

01:29:20   - And the people you're leaving behind

01:29:21   are people who don't buy software,

01:29:23   maybe don't download apps.

01:29:25   The people who don't upgrade are not your customers in general.

01:29:28   I'm reminded of the people who hung on to classic Mac OS four or five years after Mac

01:29:37   OS X came out.

01:29:38   Like the first two, three years, that was actually totally reasonable.

01:29:41   I spent a lot of time on Mac OS 9 the first two, three years after Mac OS X came out because

01:29:46   I wanted something that was fast.

01:29:49   But there came a point where, hey, come on, they haven't made computers that run Classic

01:29:56   in years, and you're still running it because of X, Y, and Z, the butt-hurt feelings about

01:30:03   Mac OS X. You know there's going to be some of those people with iOS 6 who are going to

01:30:10   cling on to iOS 6 for the next three years and not upgrade their phone and complain.

01:30:15   But like you said, they're not good customers.

01:30:17   No, they're not they're not the people that you can reach with your software

01:30:22   God, I hope there's not like a huge contingent of talk show listeners who are all like they're already gonna get so much hate man

01:30:29   Who are already planning their strategy for keeping their phones on?

01:30:32   It's getting harder and harder not to update I think yeah, you know, it's

01:30:39   Not just because there's social pressure or whatever

01:30:42   but just like it seems like the UI is more and more like, you know,

01:30:46   we have over the air updates now, right? You know, you just kind of can't miss it.

01:30:50   Yeah. You know, here's why you go. I was seven only no non retina assets on the

01:30:55   iPhone. Nice. Yeah.

01:30:57   Because because it doesn't support iOS seven doesn't support any devices that

01:31:02   aren't retina. What about the iPad mini?

01:31:05   The iPad mini runs iPhone apps into X mode. So it uses the ad to access anyway.

01:31:09   Beautiful. Well, there you go.

01:31:12   Huge win.

01:31:13   Yeah.

01:31:14   Non-retinitis.

01:31:15   Gross.

01:31:16   2x for life.

01:31:17   Non-retinitis for life.

01:31:18   Alright.

01:31:19   Well, thank you guys.

01:31:20   Let's wrap it up.

01:31:21   Brent Simmons and Dave Whiskus, thank you very much.

01:31:22   I love doing shows like this where I'm in a room with you.

01:31:23   I feel like these are the best.

01:31:24   Yeah.

01:31:25   Chill.

01:31:26   I hate Skype.

01:31:27   Chill in my dining room.

01:31:28   Yeah.

01:31:29   I want to thank our sponsors.

01:31:30   We had Squarespace, Tonks, and InventaPart.

01:31:33   So, thanks.

01:31:34   Thanks.

01:31:35   Awesome.

01:31:36   Thank you.

01:31:36   Awesome, thank you.

01:31:36   [BLANK_AUDIO]