The Talk Show

48: Eddy Cue Is Going to Jail


00:00:00   I'm fine. How are you?

00:00:03   I'm excellent. I'm excellent. So what have we got in the news this week? Here's what

00:00:12   I'm thinking. I'm thinking there's a couple of people who have noticed the last couple

00:00:16   of weeks on the show I've spent the whole show talking about iOS 7 design. Some people

00:00:22   are a little fed up with it. So I've got a new topic. I want to run it by you. This is

00:00:25   I asked you on the show this week Derek Jeter's return to the Yankees I'm

00:00:32   waiting for a rods return yeah I don't think there's a big I want to know I

00:00:40   want to know when that's happening I don't think they're in as big a hurry on

00:00:44   that yeah he's working the concession stands right now am I right I think they

00:00:51   got him in a rehab. He's doing a rehab stint working the concession stands. Hey, beer guy.

00:01:04   Isn't the beer guy A-Rod?

00:01:05   [laughter]

00:01:06   >>AJ: He should actually do that. It would probably endear him to the fans if he'd sold

00:01:12   some beer during a game.

00:01:13   >>Joe Kralovski Do you guys have a deal? Is there a classic? Do you go to games that much?

00:01:18   You've been to a few, right?

00:01:19   Yeah, I mean, you know, it's... You don't get over there that much, do you? At least once a year I try to get to Yankee Stadium.

00:01:25   You know, hopefully I'd like to go twice a year at least, but so far this year not yet.

00:01:30   Is there a signature guy, like a peanut guy? We had a peanut guy at Safeco who actually worked at the kingdom for a long time, I think, before he went to Safeco.

00:01:44   He's since retired, but he was like he would do I mean he would throw the peanuts at you from like 50 feet away

00:01:50   There might be but I don't I'm not as I'm not you don't go enough to know that you know

00:01:57   I don't know there used to be a guy. What was his name?

00:02:00   There was it was a fan

00:02:01   That was a guy who used to like a season ticket holder like a real old guy like a drum

00:02:04   But yeah, I think he passed away unfortunately

00:02:08   Moment of silence moment of silence for the guy whose name we don't know

00:02:13   Yeah, but the peanut guy, at one point he disappeared and just didn't show up for work.

00:02:24   People were very concerned about him.

00:02:26   There were articles in the paper and things on the news about him, and finally he turned

00:02:30   up.

00:02:31   He just decided not to go to work for a while.

00:02:34   But he would throw the peanuts from afar.

00:02:38   One time he whipped them at me, and it went behind my head.

00:02:42   He kind of threw, you know, he was throwing a little chin music, I guess.

00:02:45   I don't know what I did.

00:02:47   I don't know what I did to deserve that.

00:02:48   But, and I, you know, I managed to reach behind my head and grab the bag, but it,

00:02:55   but it flew open and the peanuts went everywhere and there were some people

00:02:59   in front of me who, I don't know, I must've come over from Bellevue or something,

00:03:02   but weren't very happy about that.

00:03:04   Didn't, did not understand the, that this was, that this was a, you know,

00:03:11   fan favorite thing to do is he throw in the peanuts and does he throw behind his

00:03:14   back and stuff like that yes yeah I've yeah yeah yeah and I've seen him yeah I

00:03:19   do realize that he is famous so you've actually gotten peanuts from the guy I

00:03:23   have yeah that's been a long time I and I don't think he's I don't think he's

00:03:27   there anymore but I'm not positive about that yeah that's the joy of going to the

00:03:35   baseball game now I did go to a game this week though I went to Jonas and I

00:03:41   and Joan and Jonas his best friends and his dad we went to see the the Phillies

00:03:46   yeah had a good time it's a weird game was a very weird game the Phillies lost

00:03:51   to the Nationals four to one and every single run in the game was a solo

00:03:58   homerun it's kind of a weird game and Cliff Lee who was pitching for the

00:04:03   Phillies and we've already lost the entire audience by the way yeah cliff

00:04:08   Lee again pitch for the Phillies they lost 4-1 he gave up for solo home runs

00:04:14   but he actually pitched a phenomenal game he he had I'm gonna get the exact

00:04:22   numbers wrong but something like he finished the game with 70 strikes and

00:04:25   12 balls he it was like the highest strike to ball ratio since the year 2000

00:04:32   Like in every single major league game in the last 13 years, he just had like the highest

00:04:37   strike to ball ratio. I honestly think he might have thrown four bad pitches and every single

00:04:42   one of them was hit for a home run. And that was it for the day. It was a bizarre game. He was like

00:04:47   on fire and yet the Phillies lost. Kind of weird. How are the Phillies doing this year?

00:04:53   Not so good. They're like two games under 500. I don't know what they did last night. So maybe

00:04:59   They're either one that one game under or three games under and in there would really weak division

00:05:03   The National League East is I think terrible. There's no there's no excuse for not winning that division how the Mariners doing

00:05:10   It's just so it's so painful

00:05:14   just know I

00:05:17   Know where I really don't watch the games that much anymore to say I can't bear to and but you know

00:05:21   I anytime I'm out at a bar in the game happens to be on it's just

00:05:25   Do you do what I used to do what I used to do here in Philly when I was in college in the 90s

00:05:30   when the Phillies after

00:05:32   Phillies had a great team in 93 and then 94 was the strike and then like 95 96

00:05:38   We would just check the schedule and look for when Curt Schilling was pit

00:05:43   No

00:05:43   We really did and we just look look for home games where Curt Schilling was gonna pitch and just go, you know

00:05:49   Then we'd circle them and then we'd go see him on Curt Schilling days because on Curt Schilling days

00:05:53   The Phillies were one of the best teams in baseball right and when other guys are pitching

00:05:58   Yeah, that's what the Mariners are like with yeah with Felix, yeah, yeah, so

00:06:04   Is Ricky Henderson still playing Ricky Henderson's done right? Yeah, he's done cuz he played he played in the mine

00:06:10   He went down. I mean cuz the guy just loves the game so much

00:06:12   He also loves cards apparently

00:06:15   But he went down played in the minors for a while after

00:06:20   He finished with the A's right? I was always a big Ricky Anderson. Oh, he's great. He's so much fun

00:06:25   He's he's one of those guys

00:06:27   who

00:06:28   The rare guy who talks about himself in the third person. Yes, right Ricky. He never uses a first-person pronoun

00:06:35   It's always Ricky and yet somehow you love him for it and you don't think wow. What a douche you think

00:06:42   You gotta love Ricky

00:06:44   You know what the Yankees do the Yankees have a great tradition

00:06:49   I don't know why all the other teams don't. I guess it's because they don't have any, they don't care about tradition.

00:06:52   The Yankees have old-timers day every year. They did that a couple weeks ago.

00:06:56   And so they invite, you know, a whole bunch of, you know, old-time Yankees to come and they play a game before the game.

00:07:03   Like 11 o'clock, you know.

00:07:05   You know, and some of the guys are only out for a couple of years and you watch them and you think, "Man,

00:07:10   he looks like Paul O'Neill. Like, he looks like he could still play. Man, he hit like a ball out to the wall.

00:07:15   I almost hit one out."

00:07:17   And Ricky was there this year Ricky played and did of course did a snatch catch and the crowd went wild

00:07:23   Right and that's the sort of thing where you just

00:07:27   If it weren't Ricky Henderson and he you saw an outfielder do a snatch catch you would think what an asshole

00:07:33   But it's really and you think well, of course, he's gonna do that. You can't just make a regular catch

00:07:38   Real news this week, I guess the biggest news is got to be the the ebook price fixing

00:07:47   case. Right. That would be it. So I guess I'm not surprised that Apple lost.

00:07:56   It didn't seem good, you know, and I know it sounds funny. It seems like it's a

00:08:01   weird... like this type of case is not like what you think of when you think of a

00:08:05   court case because there's no jury. It was like before a judge and it's

00:08:10   supposed to be this way. Like I've seen a lot of people say that this was like

00:08:13   controversial because this judge coat is it coat or coats coats coats no it's

00:08:18   coat coats coat you're right she said before the trial started that she found

00:08:23   the DOJ's case against Apple compelling you know and right and a lot of people

00:08:28   are like whoa how can she be the judge if she's already before the trial said

00:08:32   that but apparently in this type of case so much of the evidence is presented

00:08:35   beforehand that that's it's actually perfectly acceptable there's no that's

00:08:39   That's no reason for Apple to complain. They might have other

00:08:42   You know reasons to to complain but not that yeah

00:08:46   It's like we just think that they go into these things and then they all present their case and then the judge decides it

00:08:52   Right. Well, alright goes into a blind but that's not how it works. Well, that's how a jury case though works

00:08:57   And yes jury case the jury is supposed to the judge, right?

00:09:01   The jury is supposed to start with a complete blank slate as to the facts and only become you know

00:09:06   Only the facts presented in quarter supposed to be entered but apparently when it's tried before a judge. It doesn't work that way, right?

00:09:12   So I guess I'm not surprised because you know

00:09:15   She more I mean, it's almost like it was like a courtesy. It was like you guys are screwed

00:09:19   Apparently they are but they're going to appeal Apple seems adamant about it. Yeah

00:09:25   And I you know, I feel like you know

00:09:29   Everything Apple makes people crazy. I mean you and I have talked about this many times Apple makes Apple

00:09:36   Incorporated makes people crazy. And now that this is out, there's some certain people who

00:09:42   like Apple something something guilty price fixing and it's like there you go. They're

00:09:47   the evil empire. They're the worst company in the world. And I really think no matter

00:09:51   what your thoughts are on Apple, I really do think that it's the case is a lot more

00:09:56   subtle than that. And it certainly is not the case that Apple in any way like fix things

00:10:03   so as that they dominate the ebook industry because they don't dominate the ebook industry.

00:10:09   They're not even the leading ebook seller. I guess they're second to Amazon, but it's

00:10:13   a distant second.

00:10:14   Yeah, Amazon's 90 percent, something like that?

00:10:19   Yeah. I mean, it's like crazy. I mean, even with iBooks being like I think a relative

00:10:26   success, I think you could still say that Kindle and the Kindle store is a monopoly

00:10:34   on ebooks. So it's very strange that the company that, and Apple's sort of made this case all

00:10:42   along, like isn't it strange that the company that doesn't have a monopoly is the company

00:10:47   that the DOJ is pursuing for unduly influencing the market?

00:10:53   Yeah, and a cynical take on that would maybe be related to when Apple was brought before

00:11:02   Congress.

00:11:03   When was that again?

00:11:04   A few months ago.

00:11:05   Yeah, it was like May.

00:11:07   And at the time, it was noted that they don't really spend that much on lobbying compared

00:11:12   to a lot of these other companies.

00:11:14   In particular, Amazon is one of them.

00:11:16   And Amazon has had to spend a lot on lobbying because of the whole sales tax issue.

00:11:22   I mean, I think that's been a real big concern from them, and they spent a whole bunch of

00:11:26   time trying to work that issue to try and make that thing come out in there, you know,

00:11:30   so that it would work well for them.

00:11:33   But if one were cynical, Gwen could say that if Apple had spent more time greasing the

00:11:41   wheels of politics, maybe they wouldn't be in the position that they're in.

00:11:45   You know, that's an interesting thing.

00:11:46   Somebody tweeted that to me today, and I tweeted back to them that I didn't think so because

00:11:51   that was Congress and this is you know the Department of Justice is the

00:11:54   executive branch you know and then the judge is obvious you know in the

00:11:58   judicial branch and you know I'm not saying that judges are completely

00:12:01   apolitical but once you're appointed a federal judge I mean you don't have to

00:12:06   keep getting reelected so there's it you know there's not as much like money

00:12:11   shouldn't be employed I don't think there's any kind of well but that's on

00:12:14   the judge but the fact that the case was pursued at all right I mean it is yeah

00:12:19   Yeah, the Justice Department is Obama's Justice Department.

00:12:22   And I don't even think it's a secret. I think that the fact that it was Amazon that brought

00:12:28   ... It's not like Amazon can file a suit against Apple like this, but it was Amazon that went

00:12:36   to the DOJ and said, "Hey, you guys should go after these guys. They fixed this. They

00:12:42   broke the Sherman Act."

00:12:45   But I don't think it's even a secret that Amazon petitioned the Department of Justice

00:12:50   to pursue Apple in this regard.

00:12:53   Our good friend Adam Engst at Tidbits had, I think, I'd linked to it yesterday, I think

00:12:59   he had an excellent overview.

00:13:01   Like he read the judge's ruling.

00:13:05   I didn't read the whole ruling.

00:13:06   I read a lot of it though.

00:13:07   And it was, it was actually, I thought it was fantastically written in terms of just

00:13:10   not being like legalese or anything like that, like something a legal dum-dum like me could

00:13:15   just read and sort of follow her logic and, you know, which bits of the evidence she found

00:13:22   interesting and compelling. And then Adam, you know, wrote, I think, a good summary of

00:13:27   that.

00:13:28   Yeah. Yeah, I was rushing to finish it before we got on.

00:13:32   So what's your take?

00:13:33   Well, it's always been kind of a weird thing.

00:13:37   I mean, at first blush it seems like, "Well, why are they going after Apple instead of going after Amazon?"

00:13:43   But at the same time, the things that they went after them for, it wasn't so much the agency model as it was the things that they did on top of the agency model in order to try and make sure.

00:13:57   make sure so they did the they wanted to switch to the agency model but they also wanted to make

00:14:01   sure they could still sell books at the same price that Amazon sold books for so they would get most

00:14:08   favored nation status in order to be able to price things lower to match Amazon's prices and then what

00:14:15   was the other thing it was but there were two things that were not so much related to the agency model

00:14:18   as just more specifically setting the prices. What was the other one?

00:14:27   Was it the tears? Yeah, it was the tears, right? Yeah. That the price setting specific pricing

00:14:32   tiers. Right. That, you know, that Apple, I think, I, you know, and this all sort of makes

00:14:41   intuitive sense too, but that the, the ebook guys wanted much higher prices. Like, because pay,

00:14:51   you know, or hardcover books. The publishers. The publishers. That's, yeah, the publishers,

00:14:56   you know, had been selling bestsellers like, you know, Stephen King comes out with a new book or

00:15:02   the Fifty Shades of Grey lady comes out with a new book. And that that's going to be like,

00:15:07   you know, it's going to be a bestseller. And they're like 2530 bucks hardcover.

00:15:12   But they sell them to the booksellers at like 1516 bucks with those $30 suggested price,

00:15:21   and then it's up to the booksellers to price it somewhere between that suggested price and

00:15:25   and whatever the wholesale cost is.

00:15:27   But bestsellers are generally in hardcover in the '20s.

00:15:31   And they've always managed the book market sort of like--

00:15:37   and this is-- obviously, it even predates home video.

00:15:39   But it's sort of like with movies where--

00:15:42   first movies go in the theater.

00:15:44   And they're only in the theater.

00:15:45   And it's like $10 a ticket to go see it.

00:15:47   And they're supposed to make a lot of money that way.

00:15:50   And then they wait.

00:15:51   And then four months later or whatever, the home video thing

00:15:55   comes out and then you can buy the DVD and get a Blu-ray or buy it on iTunes or whatever.

00:16:02   And then three months later or six months after that, then maybe they'll put it on HBO

00:16:07   and then you can watch it on HBO, etc. And then two years later, you know, then you can

00:16:12   watch it on some stupid commercial channel. There's these tiers and they could roll them

00:16:17   out. The book market has always been first the hardcover and then some number of months

00:16:21   later then they come out with a nice paperback version of it and it's cheaper

00:16:25   even though it's the exact same book it's just sort of you know and probably

00:16:29   way more cheaper than the difference in the actual materials between a hard

00:16:34   cover and a paperback and so with ebooks that that you the whole concept of

00:16:39   ebooks sort of destroys that it's it it there's there's no you can't make like a

00:16:45   good version and a better version like paperback hardcover there's just the

00:16:49   book.

00:16:50   Right.

00:16:51   Retina or non-retina?

00:16:52   Yeah, maybe.

00:16:53   Right?

00:16:54   Nice fonts.

00:16:55   It's a terrible font.

00:16:56   You can get a Comic Sans version real cheap.

00:17:04   We shouldn't even mention that.

00:17:05   Someone will start doing it.

00:17:06   Yeah, somebody out there is taking notes and saying, "Hmmm, it's a genius."

00:17:09   It's not a bad idea.

00:17:12   And you know, like all of – like the music industry before it, they want to put the genie

00:17:16   back in the hat and go back to the days when they could sell the new Stephen King book

00:17:19   for $29.99 instead of $9.99. And I think Apple based on, you know, I'm not just intuiting

00:17:29   that. I mean, I'm looking at the testimony. Apple, you know, more or less went to these

00:17:33   guys and said, Look, you know, you guys got to get realistic. The e book, you know, 15

00:17:39   bucks is kind of high for any, you know, that that should be like your target for like a

00:17:42   a high, like a bestseller, 15 bucks.

00:17:45   Like, trust us, we know what people are willing to spend

00:17:49   in an online transaction thing.

00:17:52   We've sold a lot of music, we've sold a lot of apps.

00:17:55   15 bucks is really what you should be looking at,

00:17:58   and then 12 and 11 for older books or something like that.

00:18:01   And yeah, but it looks like that sort of tiering strategy,

00:18:08   and I guess they got, it's not just like a suggestion,

00:18:12   was sort of like a rule from Apple.

00:18:14   Definitely counted against them.

00:18:16   Yeah.

00:18:17   I mean, when you take that and you take it to all the major publishers and say, "Hey,

00:18:22   let's do this."

00:18:23   Okay.

00:18:24   I mean, that sounds like what you traditionally think of as price fixing.

00:18:30   Well, and then there's also the collusion because they had the phone records and showed

00:18:35   that you know prior to eddy cues like whirlwind tour of the New York publishers you know that

00:18:43   these publishers had made very few calls between each other and then as soon as eddy q hit town

00:18:48   there was a whole bunch of calls from shimon and shuster to random house and random house to

00:18:54   you know whoever else suggesting that they were you know all sort of in on it together but the

00:19:00   The thing is, I don't know how this could have happened without Apple saying, "You

00:19:06   guys should, if you're going to switch to the agency model," which is really effectively

00:19:16   – it's not that complicated. It's the App Store model where you set as the seller,

00:19:23   you the publisher, you don't set a wholesale price. You set the resale, the retail price.

00:19:29   We take 30% and you keep 70% and that's it.

00:19:34   You set a price, the customer pays it and we'll give you 70% of that.

00:19:41   Because that's another way of thinking about it is that Apple went to these publishers

00:19:45   and said, "We want to sell e-books exactly like we sell apps.

00:19:51   You set a price, we'll give you 70% and we'll handle all the distribution."

00:19:57   I don't see how they could have done that without getting them all on board.

00:20:00   All right, I...

00:20:02   I guess not.

00:20:05   And I guess that's the other thing I'm still confused about is what could Apple have done

00:20:13   differently to not be guilty of price fixing in this case?

00:20:20   Would it have been enough for them not to get the MFN clause, the whatever, if you're

00:20:26   selling it at a lower price somewhere else we get to match the price is if

00:20:30   they wouldn't have had that clause would that have been enough that might have

00:20:34   been enough because I mean I would think that Amazon would have had less of an

00:20:38   objection and would have been less likely to take you know go to the

00:20:42   Justice Department and say hey go after these guys I don't because that's what

00:20:46   really because I think that's what Amazon really wanted to be able to do

00:20:49   though is they wanted to they wanted to have these lost leaders that they could

00:20:53   sell just to get people to come to the site.

00:20:55   Right, because with the agency model, you can't sell at a loss.

00:21:00   Because there is no wholesale retail difference.

00:21:08   It's the seller, the creator picks a retail price and you just give them 70% of it.

00:21:13   There is no way to undercut the price.

00:21:16   And Apple never would have been able to sell those books for that price.

00:21:22   the publishers wouldn't have set them that well right Amazon Amazon would have

00:21:28   chugged along happily as it as it had been and I'm not sure about this but

00:21:31   this is my guess and because they would be able to still sell books at $9.99

00:21:36   all right I guess maybe the other way would be that would have made Amazon

00:21:41   happy and I can't help but think would have you know made this a non-issue from

00:21:47   the Department of Justice's angle is, okay, you call it the agency model and let's say

00:21:54   John Moltz comes out with a new novel published by Random House and Random House wants it

00:21:58   to sell for $14.99. Amazon could still sell it for $9.99 and just give you 70% of $14.99.

00:22:09   It's the fact that the contracts for these publishers in the new agency model forbid

00:22:14   the retailer from changing the price.

00:22:16   You know, it's the price you set and it has to be that.

00:22:22   I guess the fundamental issue in the whole thing is the fact that Amazon, this is what

00:22:27   I keep thinking about, is that Amazon is such an unbelievably different company than anybody

00:22:34   would have ever expected to exist.

00:22:38   They don't pursue profits and their shareholders don't hold them.

00:22:44   Don't care.

00:22:45   Don't care.

00:22:46   And I'm not even saying that that doesn't make sense, that there isn't a certain sense

00:22:49   to it because look at what they've done to the physical book industry, right?

00:22:55   They've not quite destroyed it but almost destroyed it.

00:22:58   I mean Borders is out of business.

00:22:59   Barnes and Noble is in trouble.

00:23:04   And it's the fact that like this whole – the whole traditional wholesale retail pricing

00:23:10   thing was from the publisher's perspective was built on, all right, we'll set a wholesale

00:23:17   price of 15 bucks for the book.

00:23:19   We'll put a thing on the cover that says retail $30.

00:23:23   And we just assume that everybody we ship it to, you know, from booksellers to Walmarts

00:23:29   to whoever is going to sell it at a retail price in between $15 and $30, probably closer

00:23:35   to $30. If they want to sell it closer to $15, go nuts. But they know it's going to

00:23:39   be above $15 because if it was under $15, it's unsustainable because it's a loss, right?

00:23:45   And nobody can go forever selling books at a loss. Nobody ever thinks that except Amazon

00:23:49   figured out a way to do that by selling enough other stuff for profits to break even. And

00:23:58   And so, you know, forever, they've sold books at a loss just so that they can dominate the

00:24:03   industry. And I don't think anybody ever anticipated that a company would exist that for – I

00:24:09   mean, how long has Amazon been selling books? Probably about close to 20 years, you know,

00:24:13   for 15 to 16, 17 years would continuously sell every book at a loss.

00:24:19   Yeah, it's unbelievable.

00:24:21   And they just never anticipated that. And then I think taking that same business model

00:24:30   to ebooks where Amazon didn't have to destroy the existing infrastructure of physical book

00:24:38   sellers, your borders, your Barnes and Nobles, you know, the smaller ones that are inside

00:24:44   your malls, targets and Walmart's and everywhere else where you could traditionally buy books,

00:24:50   didn't have to destroy that because the ebook market was brand new and Amazon

00:24:54   came right out of the gate and and sort of established themselves as the leader

00:24:58   I remember being all pie-eyed at the time thinking oh this is great you know

00:25:04   now that we're gonna get ebooks we'll be able to pay a lot less for books cuz

00:25:09   it's just you know it's just ones and zeros and I are paying basically what we

00:25:15   always paid. Oh no I don't know about that. I think ebooks are cheaper than...

00:25:20   Well maybe I'm maybe on inflation but I mean... we used to get

00:25:25   paperbacks for seven eight bucks. I just assumed... I thought we'd get ebooks for

00:25:32   like two dollars. Hmm. Because there was no printing cost they just send you the

00:25:38   And because you would like to see authors starve.

00:25:43   Yeah. Well, I also assumed that the authors weren't really getting all the money anyway, and I didn't care if Random House starved.

00:25:51   Keep sending the same amount to the author, or just squeeze out Random House.

00:25:56   house.

00:25:57   I do think, and I think that's something about this ebook case where it's more complicated

00:26:03   than I think a typical case because there's a bunch of interested parties. Clearly there's

00:26:09   Amazon and Apple. And Amazon and Apple are both fine no matter what. They're both very,

00:26:13   very successful companies. And Apple in particular doesn't need ebooks at all. They could just

00:26:21   get out of the e-book business and it would be a rounding error in their

00:26:25   finances you know mm-hmm they could and people would probably still read just as

00:26:30   many ebooks on their iPads because they would just switched and just do it all

00:26:34   on Kindle app probably wouldn't decrease the actual reading of ebooks on iPads

00:26:39   at all there's the publishers there's authors and then of course there's

00:26:48   consumers, the readers. And so what I see on Twitter and in my email from people

00:26:55   who send me feedback on my coverage of the case, and which hasn't been extensive,

00:26:59   I mean, but you know, there's definitely a strong contingent of the

00:27:07   consumer side. Probably people listening to the show right now, you know, but

00:27:12   definitely people who read my stuff whose take on it is as simple as lower

00:27:18   prices are better for consumers, period. And so, you know, Amazon is selling all ebooks

00:27:24   or trying to sell all of them at the most $9.99 was great for readers. And Apple's entry

00:27:30   into the market, breaking that and raising a lot of ebook prices to $15, you know, and

00:27:37   an average that's now somewhere between 10 and $15 is, you know, in and of itself bad.

00:27:43   It is you know the market is now in worse shape than it was before and so it's good

00:27:48   That the Department of Justice went after Apple because this is a bad thing

00:27:52   And I you know there's a certain logic to that argument

00:27:56   but I'd I really think that the short I think it's short-sighted because I don't think it's I don't think that the

00:28:02   Amazon dominating the e-book market was going to be good for consumers in the long term right and I don't either

00:28:09   And you see it. There was a New York Times article last month about how

00:28:13   Amazon has started now finally raising prices on physical books

00:28:19   After years and years of always being the lowest, you know price now that they dominate it so strongly

00:28:25   And they've driven so many other competitors out of business now, they're starting to raise prices

00:28:30   and I think that's almost certainly what they would have done or might even still do with the e-book market someday is

00:28:38   Grow to dominate it so strongly that they can eventually, you know that everybody's dependent upon them and then they can say okay

00:28:44   Now we're gonna keep selling books

00:28:47   I think that their long-term plan was in the short term keep buying these wholesale ebooks at 15

00:28:52   1415 bucks sell them at 999 at a loss, but then eventually go to the publishers and say, you know

00:28:59   We're sick of selling these things at a loss

00:29:00   We're gonna keep selling them to people at 999, but we're only gonna give you seven dollars for them

00:29:06   And now we're gonna keep two dollars of it and that's it take it or leave it

00:29:09   And if they're selling 90% of all ebooks, they might have to take that

00:29:14   I think that's the future that publishers feared and I don't think that there's you know

00:29:18   Any reason to think that that's a crazy theory, right?

00:29:21   And I you know, I think that's sort of along the lines of the argument Steve Jobs laid out in one of the emails that they

00:29:27   had is

00:29:29   Evidence, you know, I think to Rupert Murdoch's kid

00:29:32   Jimmy Murdoch

00:29:35   Well, what was it?

00:29:40   The individually published books before Apple got in—how am I remembering this correctly?

00:29:48   Didn't they sell—it was flipped, right?

00:29:53   Before Apple launched the App Store—was it the App Store?

00:29:58   Amazon took 70% as opposed to 30%.

00:30:00   Hmm.

00:30:01   I'm trying to remember what I'm missing something there but but there was

00:30:04   something and I'm assuming that it was individually published books yeah I think

00:30:08   it was because you could because you could publish a book as an app when the

00:30:11   App Store came out maybe that's it but no I think but it was basically yeah

00:30:20   they were taking 70% and then Apple came out right with their with their solution

00:30:25   and they had to flip it because Apple was only taking 30%.

00:30:30   So it doesn't, yeah, I mean,

00:30:34   even though they're selling things cheaply now,

00:30:37   it's not to say that they always would,

00:30:41   or that always selling things cheaply

00:30:44   is necessarily the best thing.

00:30:45   I think the App Store, I mean,

00:30:49   and Apple's App Store is also an example of that.

00:30:53   Well, and I think that there's a certain fundamental truth to it that it's, it is ultimately unsustainable.

00:31:00   I mean, at some point in theory, I think, you know, and maybe, you know, we're maybe

00:31:05   we're literally talking about decades, you know, the decades long event horizon, Amazon

00:31:11   can't keep selling them at a loss, something's got to give, you know, it's unsustainable.

00:31:16   And it's all, you know, in general, I think it's better to set up a business to be sustainable

00:31:21   right from the start. And the agency model is sustainable because there's no selling

00:31:27   at a loss involved.

00:31:28   Tim Cynova Yeah, I guess I wonder what sustainable means

00:31:32   though. They've been doing it for 15 years. That's a fairly long horizon.

00:31:39   Dave Asprey Yeah, I guess so. The thing that has always

00:31:43   made me, you know, amenable to Apple's side of the argument is the fact that the

00:31:50   Authors Guild, I mean that's not to say all authors certainly, I mean the Authors

00:31:55   Guild doesn't speak for everybody, but the Authors Guild was strongly on Apple's

00:32:00   side, you know, and was against Amazon's side, you know, and the other thing too, I

00:32:04   mean, and it's not even about sustainability, it's just sort of the,

00:32:09   It's the way that pricing is part of your branding, right?

00:32:13   Your price is part – for any product is sort of part of the brand.

00:32:18   And the publishers were concerned about the $9.99 e-book pricing because they felt like

00:32:22   it was setting the expectation in consumers' minds that e-books were worth a lot less than

00:32:30   physical books.

00:32:31   And it's like you even said a few minutes ago.

00:32:33   Maybe that is right.

00:32:37   Because you're not paying for all of this paper and printing and all the physical shipping

00:32:42   and that truck loaded up with all these books to drive across the country and ship these

00:32:47   books everywhere that you should expect to pay a lot less.

00:32:51   Maybe, but the publishers didn't like it.

00:32:54   And they realized, I think, correctly, I think, that the longer Amazon went selling bestsellers

00:32:59   like brand new books for $9.99, the more strongly entrenched in consumer minds it would be that

00:33:04   that that's what ebooks should cost.

00:33:08   Yeah, so it devalues their products.

00:33:12   Right.

00:33:13   It's almost like a control issue that they've lost control over the pricing of their own

00:33:16   product, which I think is frustrating.

00:33:19   And maybe they're wrong.

00:33:20   Maybe they're wrong about expecting to get those higher prices.

00:33:23   But I don't think that they were wrong to think that they should be the ones who get

00:33:27   to pick the price for their product.

00:33:29   Yeah, I would certainly agree with that.

00:33:32   Well, let's take a break.

00:33:34   Just because, yeah, okay.

00:33:35   I'll take a break.

00:33:36   We'll come back to it.

00:33:37   We'll keep going on eBooks for a little bit.

00:33:38   But first, bizarre coincidence truly, but I want to tell you about the first sponsor

00:33:46   is Tableau Publishing.

00:33:48   They spell it T-A-B-L-O.

00:33:51   No Frenchy spelling.

00:33:53   T-A-B-L-O.

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00:33:58   Here's what they do.

00:33:59   They let you create e-books in the cloud and publish them with a single click.

00:34:04   Now, in the past, publishing your own e-books is very complicated at a technical level.

00:34:10   First, different file formats. iPad uses the EPUB.

00:34:14   Kindle uses their own format. All sorts of differences between the formats.

00:34:20   Different formats for different devices. Different tricks you need to do to make it look

00:34:24   good on different devices, registering ISBN numbers for each of your books because certain

00:34:30   booksellers aren't gonna sell books that don't have them. And different publishers have all

00:34:35   sorts of different requirements. Well, here's the thing. Tableau centralizes all of this.

00:34:38   You don't have to worry about any of it. They make it easy for anyone to take any, to create

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00:34:52   divisions and then with one click you can publish your books to both Amazon and the

00:34:57   iBook store. It's really easy to cut and paste your existing work. So if you already have

00:35:02   a book written or let's say like a big pile of blog posts that you want to collect into

00:35:08   a book, you just copy and paste them into their web app and you're off. It takes all

00:35:16   the technical challenges of publishing away so you can focus on writing. And it's free.

00:35:21   free to create your books. How do you get started? Go to Tableau dot io, ta b l o dot

00:35:28   io slash the talk show. Then they'll know you came here from the show. Sign up today

00:35:34   and you can start creating your own books for free. When you're ready to publish, use

00:35:39   the code, the talk show and you'll save 10% on the publishing costs. So you can go there,

00:35:45   check it out for free, see how it works. Take a look. And when you're ready to go use that

00:35:51   code the talk show and you'll save you'll save some dough so my thanks to

00:35:54   tableau publishing for sponsoring the show kind of freaky because these

00:35:59   sponsorships have been booked weeks in advance and I I did not you know I

00:36:07   didn't call judge coats and say hey could you could you issue your ruling

00:36:11   this week because I have a sponsor who's in a book publishing so eddy Q is I

00:36:20   guests going to jail is that how this works again no that's where they got him

00:36:30   right it's like a work release program he seems like a guy who could handle

00:36:36   himself in jail yeah he does he's a Duke fan so you know yeah him and Bob

00:36:41   Mansfield would they would uh man they would just run the place Bob Mansfield

00:36:47   would have no problem whatsoever. Big Bob Manfield.

00:36:54   Forstell, they would have traded like cigarettes.

00:36:57   He'd be in trouble.

00:37:06   No, I know. What is it? It's like a fine, right? I mean, it's just like a – they have to pay back people who bought e-books.

00:37:16   I guess what I do, you know, I'm confused about that, too. I guess that, you know, first

00:37:22   Apple has said there, you know, who knows if they're going to follow through, but they

00:37:25   said they're going to appeal. And I guess if they do, then the appeal has to come first.

00:37:31   Let's presume that either they don't appeal or they appeal and lose. Then it's it's a

00:37:37   separate hearing to establish damages and and you know, Apple's gonna have to pay some

00:37:42   number of million dollars where does the money go though I don't know does it did

00:37:47   the government just take it or is it somehow read only did it huh yeah I

00:37:50   think you'd end up well I don't know it's not a class suit right it's not a

00:37:54   class-action lawsuit so I don't I don't see how they could possibly return the

00:37:57   money to write consumers I think that you'd pay the fine to the government and

00:38:01   government keeps it huh it goes right to Obama that's how that works right is

00:38:11   Was that Rian Noel? I don't want to get into that. We'll lose the people who made it through

00:38:20   the sports references.

00:38:23   I guess that's how it works.

00:38:27   Yeah I guess. I mean that's, I'm trying to think of what, so, well, Microsoft, their

00:38:34   suit was different. They basically had to break up their products, right? I don't think

00:38:43   they had a fine.

00:38:44   And that was a far bigger and more complicated and wider reaching case because again, that

00:38:50   was about the fundamentals of the company. That was about Windows and Office. I mean,

00:38:56   it was about everything that Microsoft-- the Microsoft case was truly about everything

00:39:01   fundamental to the company. Whereas like I said, you know, if the ruling were, I mean,

00:39:06   what, I don't, this isn't even on the table, but if the ruling were Apple is forced to

00:39:10   leave the ebook market, I bookstore is shut down. That would, I would have almost no effect

00:39:15   on Apple whatsoever. I mean, maybe that's overstating it a bit, but it, you know, I

00:39:21   think it would be embarrassing certainly, but certainly gives, it certainly gives Amazon

00:39:25   leverage yeah but you know which should which you know what ultimately is bad

00:39:30   for consumers but anyway but that's not what's happening but the other thing

00:39:35   though is that it's it's not gonna put the genie back in the bottle and switch

00:39:39   the market back to the way it was before wholesale retail like the agency model

00:39:43   still stands between even with publishers and Amazon you know it's like

00:39:53   again, a bunch of the publishers, or I guess all of the publishers, rather than stand with

00:39:57   Apple and fight the case, all of the publishers settled with the DOJ, you know, a year ago

00:40:01   or months ago, and I guess just paid fines, but they didn't really have to change the

00:40:06   way they do business.

00:40:10   So yeah, because the next phase of the trial was supposed to be damages.

00:40:18   Right.

00:40:19   But...

00:40:20   I think the judges is going to pick some number of $50 million or something like that and

00:40:24   Apple pays a fine and then the whole thing gets forgotten. But I mean it. And I think

00:40:30   that henceforth, all ebooks are sold on the agency model, both on the iBook store and

00:40:36   Kindle store.

00:40:37   JE: Right. Seems strange. Seems like if the people who were hurt are the people... Although

00:40:46   So I guess the theory is also that Amazon customers were hurt by it too.

00:40:51   I guess so.

00:40:52   But they can't send money back to Amazon customers.

00:40:53   Right.

00:40:54   But there's nothing...it's like the tactics were illegal, you know, or found to be illegal.

00:41:00   You know, that the way that Apple went to all of them and said, "Hey, everybody else

00:41:04   is on board.

00:41:05   We want you on board too."

00:41:07   That's what's illegal.

00:41:08   I mean, it's like you said before, the agency model itself, there's nothing illegal about

00:41:11   it.

00:41:12   I mean, nobody's complaining or saying that the App Store is in any way, you know, price

00:41:15   fixing. It was the collusion between the publishers to all do this at once and

00:41:22   Apple as the coordinator of that or maybe facilitator is the better word

00:41:28   because they were gonna you know open this high-profile store where it could

00:41:32   start. So we all pay less in our taxes next year? Yeah, exactly. Big tax cut

00:41:45   coming thanks to Uncle Tim. I'll go buy a new MacBook. Free MacBooks for everybody.

00:41:55   That seems wrong. Oh man. So I guess there's anything else on the e-book thing? No, we

00:42:05   should maybe should we talk about the other big suit that's coming up? What's

00:42:08   What's that?

00:42:09   Let me see if I can find the title of this one.

00:42:19   Apple should protect me from my porn addiction.

00:42:21   This is going to be a big case.

00:42:23   All right.

00:42:24   Let's hear about it.

00:42:27   A Florida man.

00:42:29   That's always Florida man.

00:42:30   Florida man.

00:42:33   This is Above the Law, which I guess is a law blog, is suing Apple for millions because

00:42:40   he couldn't be bothered to figure out how iTunes works.

00:42:44   He is complaining that Apple products should ship with basically the child protection on

00:42:52   so that people cannot accidentally visit porn sites because he accidentally visited porn

00:42:58   sites and it ruined his marriage.

00:43:01   Yes, accidentally. He apparently typed in, instead of Facebook, he typed in a popular

00:43:08   porn site. Also starting with F and ending with book.

00:43:14   Alright, that's a good way to put it. With an "uck" in the middle. Accidentally. Accidentally.

00:43:21   You know how that happens. Curse you, autocomplete.

00:43:28   Yeah, because that's what autocomplete does. It puts in swear words where you were going

00:43:33   to put in regular words.

00:43:35   So he wound up at fbook.com and then his life went to hell.

00:43:39   Right.

00:43:40   And clearly…

00:43:41   His marriage was ruined because he couldn't stop looking at naked ladies.

00:43:48   Because of a defective Macbook that kept showing him porn that he was asking it to show him.

00:43:57   And the the the complaint is written is just it's just great. I mean, it's the bits I didn't read the whole thing. But the bits that are that are quoted in this piece are just hysterical.

00:44:08   Yeah, that's that's a court case. I could I could Yeah, I am looking forward to this. I hope this goes to trial. Yeah. I don't think it will. I want to I want to I want to get I want to see Phil Schiller on the stand and answer for this.

00:44:24   As human beings themselves Apple employees know that a man is born full of harmonies and attacked

00:44:32   Attacked to by women engaging in sexual acts with the intent to cause vicarious arousal

00:44:39   Direct quote from the from the lawsuit. Yeah, I got a feeling that this guy I got a feeling this guy might need a better lawyer

00:44:48   than himself

00:44:53   apparently is a fairly a lawyer and and also also he has his own band of course

00:45:01   he does what's the name of the band do they say it's I looked it up earlier

00:45:08   it's ghost wars hmm here's my favorite part of his his lawsuit is the the

00:45:21   unfair competition clause and you know what and he's got a point now apples

00:45:25   already just you know two days ago been found guilty of unfair competition so I

00:45:30   think he's got a case here unfair competition and interference of the

00:45:34   marital contract the plaintiff became totally out of sync and his romantic

00:45:39   relationship with his wife which was a consequence of his use of his Apple

00:45:44   product there you go I mean I'd right stop that the all the rest of it there

00:45:49   There you go. I mean, that's it. There's your case. He got it out of sync with his wife.

00:45:56   Right. He also claims that if this is...

00:46:03   This is literally...

00:46:05   It'll help the... I'm trying to find it. It'll actually help the porn industry if Apple is

00:46:10   sued because it will... Where is it? Unrig it because Apple is sued.

00:46:17   Because unregulated internet porn is hurting brick and mortar or mom and pop porn shops.

00:46:27   [laughter]

00:46:28   >> Mike Bausch It is the guy from above the law that says,

00:46:34   first of all, mom and pop porn shops is going into the pantheon of greatest phrases and

00:46:39   legal complaints.

00:46:40   >> John

00:46:40   I like this part.

00:46:43   The plaintiff began desiring younger, more beautiful girls featured in porn videos than

00:46:47   his wife, who was no longer 21.

00:46:54   His failed marriage caused the plaintiff to experience emotional distress to the point

00:46:59   of hospitalization.

00:47:02   Plaintiff could no longer tell the difference between internet pornography and tangible

00:47:06   intercourse due to the content he accessed through the Apple products.

00:47:12   You couldn't tell the difference?

00:47:13   If you can't tell the difference, you may be doing it wrong.

00:47:16   Am I screwing my wife at this moment or am I looking at Borno on a laptop?

00:47:22   I can't tell.

00:47:23   I bet he had a retina.

00:47:25   I was going to say that.

00:47:27   It's got to be a retina, Mac, because the pixels would have been a dead giveaway.

00:47:31   That's right.

00:47:32   would have been a dead giveaway so we'll look forward to more about that well and

00:47:42   that coincidentally enough leads us directly into our next sponsor our next

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00:48:43   It's a nice design site." They've got great products, though. They've clever stuff. They've

00:48:46   got a dog bowl designed to make dogs eat slower. Because I've seen dogs. I don't know about you,

00:48:51   you've got a dog, right? But there are some dogs who are sort of pathological about food

00:48:57   and and we'll try to eat it all at once. Yes. My dog growing up. Oh yeah, no he goes through,

00:49:02   oh yeah, no I mean. My dog growing up was sort of like that, like he he was sort of like a great

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00:49:18   they've got a poop bag that's shaped like a mitten for easy pickup. Oh man. Isn't that great? Now

00:49:25   Now that, I mean, you know, if you're a city dweller,

00:49:29   I mean, that's, you know, what to do with the poop

00:49:31   is a serious issue.

00:49:32   I mean, we're civilized people here.

00:49:34   I guarantee you, I would be appalled

00:49:37   if there was anybody out there who listens to this talk show

00:49:39   who's one of those dirtbags who takes their dog out

00:49:42   and lets him poop and then looks, you know,

00:49:44   does like a left, right, and if nobody's looking,

00:49:46   just walks away and leaves it there.

00:49:47   Because you're, you know, that's the scum

00:49:49   of the earth right there.

00:49:50   - Yes.

00:49:51   - Everybody who listens to this show is civilized.

00:49:52   You pick up the poop, but how do you pick up the poop?

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00:50:10   Right. I think this to me is a fantastic sponsorship for this

00:50:15   show because the show in general has nothing to do with dogs. I

00:50:19   don't generally link to dog related stuff. But my audience I

00:50:24   would think is that it's defined by people who have good taste and like the

00:50:28   nicer things in life and so those of you who have dogs I this stuff is is right

00:50:34   up your alley I think it's like I get almost like the canonical I yeah no this

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00:50:43   money you yes well you know it's stuff we have to buy anyway well except for

00:50:47   the probably the coats and stuff like that but the poop bags I mean we have to

00:50:51   the poop bags anyway. I also like that they just call it poop. Yeah, it's it you hover

00:50:56   you hover over the thing and it says see poop. Yeah, view, view, view. And it's it is also I

00:51:02   would just further say and and to me it just speaks to the design quality of their products

00:51:08   or it implies it. The website is just lovely. I think it's a terrific, terrific website. Yeah.

00:51:16   Really like it.

00:51:17   This is good.

00:51:18   Yeah, I have an internet famous poodle.

00:51:22   I don't know if you knew that.

00:51:23   I do know that.

00:51:24   No, your poodle is nuts.

00:51:26   Yeah.

00:51:27   He's big.

00:51:28   He's 85 pounds because he eats all of his food.

00:51:37   So maybe if we get him, maybe he can slim down a little bit.

00:51:40   Big ass poodle.

00:51:41   He's barely a little bit overweight.

00:51:44   Big Ass Poodle is one of my favorite dog breeds.

00:51:47   It really is.

00:51:48   I mean it sincerely.

00:51:49   I need to – I should get the URL.

00:51:52   Big Ass Poodle?

00:51:53   Yeah.

00:51:54   Isn't that the technical name for that breed?

00:51:57   As far as I'm concerned.

00:51:59   There's the Miniature Poodle.

00:52:00   Standard is what it is, actually.

00:52:03   There's – but that's – so, standard is the big one?

00:52:06   Yeah.

00:52:07   Standard is the big one.

00:52:08   Oh, see, I thought – let's see, but I would think standard –

00:52:10   You'd think that standard would be like the middle.

00:52:11   The knee-high one.

00:52:12   Yeah.

00:52:13   I don't know what that is because there's oh, you know, that's miniature and then the small ones are teacup. Oh teacup

00:52:19   Ah, that's the one where like the that's the one that shakes all the time and that the

00:52:24   You'll see like girls who put them in their purse and just walk around town with them in a purse, right?

00:52:29   Right your your dog. What's your dog's name Grant Grant? That's a good dog name. So grant probably does not fit in a purse

00:52:36   No doesn't fit in anything

00:52:41   Is he good in the car?

00:52:47   He's all right.

00:52:48   He's not crazy about the car, but he wants to go wherever we go.

00:52:51   So if we're going to the car, he wants to go get in the car.

00:52:54   He used to get car sick when he was younger, and he's better about it now.

00:52:59   He doesn't really get that sick, but he's not crazy about the car particularly.

00:53:03   He doesn't stick his head out the window.

00:53:06   My dog growing up, Chester, he was a head sticker outer.

00:53:10   Love to stick his head out the window.

00:53:12   Just nuts for it.

00:53:14   Even if the window wasn't even open a crack, he would just sit there and paw at the window.

00:53:19   Make this thing go down.

00:53:20   I want to stick my head out the window.

00:53:21   Yeah.

00:53:22   Our dog fell out the window doing that.

00:53:23   No, you're kidding me.

00:53:24   We were driving down the road.

00:53:26   Mitt Romney style.

00:53:27   Yeah.

00:53:28   Well, fortunately, my brother had her on a leash.

00:53:30   Oh, my God.

00:53:31   And he basically just...

00:53:32   We were driving on...

00:53:33   She was a small...

00:53:34   She was a West Island Terrier.

00:53:37   And we were driving along and he was hanging on to the leash.

00:53:39   hanging there by the leash like choking a D screaming stop stop so she was all

00:53:46   right so she was fine just back in the car nothing happened the car you know

00:53:51   still shaken up maybe they forget about that after a while though is this one of

00:53:57   those things now we're gonna have to put some kind of SPCA warning at the end

00:54:00   podcast no dogs were we're harmed making in the making of this podcast

00:54:05   does grant know when you're taking him to the vet no my dog growing up it's it

00:54:11   well actually I think he probably does when we get close we see we you know he

00:54:16   can see knows he recognizes places when we get close to them we would take take

00:54:20   Chester Chester was a like a mutt it was but a best we could determine he was

00:54:26   probably about three quarters poodle and maybe like one quarter Pekingese or

00:54:31   something like that. But looked, you know, he didn't have the curly hair, but

00:54:36   physically looked a lot like a poodle. I mean, there was clearly a lot of poodle in him.

00:54:39   But he was, you know, maybe like knee-high. We used to take him a lot of

00:54:42   places, take him to shopping and just leave him in the car, crack a window. But

00:54:46   he would spend a lot of time, you know, so we took him a lot of places in the car.

00:54:48   He'd go out in the car a couple times a week. When we took him to the vet, he knew

00:54:53   before we even left the house. He just knew. He knew and he would go like rigid-

00:54:58   legged and would dig his nails into the carpet and would make you pick them up. As opposed

00:55:04   to if we're going to Kmart or something, he just opened the door and he'd run to the car.

00:55:09   He knew.

00:55:10   He could smell it. Maybe he could smell it on you.

00:55:12   I don't know. Something about that always amazed me.

00:55:14   Yeah. It's amazing how much they use their nose. You talk to him and he's sitting there

00:55:21   smelling you, trying to figure out what's going on because he can tell.

00:55:26   That's how I feel about going to the dentist.

00:55:29   I can't blame them.

00:55:31   That's probably how you feel about going to the airport.

00:55:34   Oh, yeah.

00:55:35   Yes, it is, actually.

00:55:37   It's exactly that.

00:55:39   Can we – is it – are you comfortable talking about this?

00:55:41   I want to talk about the plane.

00:55:42   No, I'm not comfortable talking about it, but we can talk about it anyway.

00:55:44   The plane that crashed at SFO a week ago.

00:55:47   What was it?

00:55:48   About a week ago?

00:55:49   Yeah, something like that.

00:55:50   Yeah.

00:55:51   I think it's almost exactly a week ago, right?

00:55:53   Yeah.

00:55:54   It was last Thursday and Friday?

00:55:55   which I had never heard of before.

00:55:58   I thought it was the airline I lost.

00:56:01   It's so amazing, because that was Oceana.

00:56:04   Oceana Airlines.

00:56:07   Oceanic.

00:56:08   But close enough.

00:56:11   I'm going to make light of this a little bit, and I do not mean to make light of the two teenagers from China who died on the flight,

00:56:19   or of any of the people who did have some...

00:56:22   Luckily, here's the thing that's amazing.

00:56:24   The plane actually crashed.

00:56:25   It was a crash.

00:56:26   There was fire.

00:56:27   The tail ripped off the plane.

00:56:30   And out of like 303 people on the plane, only two people died, which to me is amazing.

00:56:34   Yeah.

00:56:35   Yeah.

00:56:36   And I mean, you know, and as someone who is uncomfortable flying, it's actually, you know,

00:56:42   it's terrible.

00:56:43   But it's also because my image is always just like the whole everything goes.

00:56:47   Fireball.

00:56:48   Right.

00:56:49   Yeah.

00:56:50   Just everything reduced to dust.

00:56:51   Right.

00:56:52   And so, it's heartbreaking to think of the two girls who died, and I don't mean to make

00:57:01   light of that. And there were a hundred and some people who had to go to the hospital

00:57:05   for varying degrees of injuries. A lot of people, neck injuries and back injuries from

00:57:10   the bouncing up and down. And I guess even with seat belts on, a lot of people hit their

00:57:14   heads on the overhead thing.

00:57:18   Oh, is that right?

00:57:19   Yeah.

00:57:20   I mean, well, it probably depends on how tight you keep the seatbelt too.

00:57:23   Well, did you see the video?

00:57:25   So there was a guy.

00:57:26   No.

00:57:27   No.

00:57:28   I've…

00:57:29   There was a guy…

00:57:30   I've assiduously avoided any…

00:57:31   There was a guy…

00:57:32   I'm talking about…

00:57:33   …who was just, you know, I forget how far away he was from the airport, but not too

00:57:37   far.

00:57:38   You know, had like a good view of the runways and was there with his family on a trip like

00:57:41   his kids and he had a camera and they were just watching planes land.

00:57:45   he had his camera, you know, right there and saw the plane, you know, the whole thing. It's

00:57:51   kind of amazing footage. But it did it like hit, you know, it I guess that I guess what happened is

00:57:59   the plane was coming in way too soon and was going to hit the water before the pilot realized it and

00:58:04   tried to pull up but it was too late to pull up. But that's why the plane hit tail first because

00:58:09   the pilot had the nose rising nose pointing up to try to get back up in the air but it was too late

00:58:16   and so it hit tail first and the tail broke off whole plane hit the ground and then it like

00:58:23   bounced up in the air and then came back down and skidded to a halt but i guess when it bounced a

00:58:28   lot of people went up and hit their head so people are hurt but there were also a couple like a hundred

00:58:32   hundred and some people, or like 160 people who walked away unscathed. Right? So there's

00:58:39   a guy on Twitter. It's amazing. This guy David, I might pronounce his surname wrong, Eun.

00:58:44   E-U-N. David Eun. You know, and it seems--

00:58:49   >>AJ (off-screen) Did you see the guy? He worked for Samsung? Was he--

00:58:51   >>John (off-screen) I don't know if he works for Samsung or what.

00:58:54   >>AJ I thought that guy, because he was--wasn't he the first guy that the picture--he posted

00:58:59   on Twitter that I don't think I just you know I just crash-landed yeah here's his

00:59:03   tweet I'll put it in the show notes I just crash-landed at SFO tail ripped off

00:59:07   it's a it's a path link yeah most like the picture everyone seems most everyone

00:59:12   I thought he worked for Samsung little maybe he does I don't think so but but

00:59:17   he is Korean maybe he does but you know and it's weird it's like the second

00:59:21   reply to him was from a friend of the show frequent guest Dan Fromer who's just

00:59:26   like holy shit glad you're okay but it's it's a you know he took the picture like

00:59:30   I don't know looks like maybe 50 feet after he got out of the airplane mm-hmm

00:59:35   but he's fine but here's the thing then you follow the rest of his tweets then

00:59:39   and you see that he didn't leave SFO for like another seven hours and that's now

00:59:46   this is the part I wanted to bring up I feel like if I'm on a plane and it

00:59:51   crashes and I'm lucky enough that I'm okay. Well, I just want to go. I don't want to stay

00:59:59   for six or seven hours. Let me get – if I walked off, let me just go. I want to go

01:00:03   have dinner. Right?

01:00:05   JE; Drink.

01:00:06   AO; Right.

01:00:07   JE; Definitely want to have a drink.

01:00:08   AO; Yeah.

01:00:09   JE; Well, I assume they want to interview him. And you probably – like any accident,

01:00:15   you want to make sure – I mean, maybe have somebody check you out. Although, maybe you

01:00:18   need to go to her doctor.

01:00:19   I think I can do it like a sell. I feel all right. Is that absurd? I'm not saying I expect

01:00:26   to immediately go. Clearly, I'm not going to be able to pick up your bag. I feel like

01:00:33   an hour at the most. I feel like take my name down. Sure. But you already have the flight

01:00:40   list. Mark me down as being okay and let me go.

01:00:47   Hmm. I don't know. It seems like there would be paperwork.

01:00:52   I guess, but it seems like six or seven hours of paperwork is asking a lot.

01:00:57   Well, it's an airport. Everything takes longer than an airport.

01:01:02   I guess I would be okay with...

01:01:04   Yeah, because you'd probably have to fill out some sort of like...

01:01:07   God, I can't even imagine.

01:01:11   Because all their luggage was probably...

01:01:13   Didn't it burn after that, didn't it?

01:01:16   Yeah.

01:01:17   I mean, like the...

01:01:18   Well, and the luggage goes on the bottom.

01:01:20   Right.

01:01:20   So I would presume that that just got destroyed by the friction,

01:01:23   and that that's, you know, as the plant slid,

01:01:26   because it didn't go on the wheels, it just slid.

01:01:28   I would guess that the luggage that was underneath was pretty much toast.

01:01:32   Or you're probably just not going to want it back anyway.

01:01:34   But maybe the overhead bags, the stuff you put over your seat, might have been alright.

01:01:37   Yeah, that's true.

01:01:38   Right? And I guess that's the other thing, too.

01:01:39   No, but it didn't have top. Anyway, it doesn't.

01:01:41   That's the other thing too, though. I would want it, you know, "Hey, once you've got

01:01:45   the fire out, can I get in there and get my overhead bag?" Is that asking too much?

01:01:51   I left my magazine.

01:01:52   You know, you're the ones who crashed the fucking airplane. How about you let me get

01:01:55   my bag and let me get on with my trip?

01:02:00   But you've probably thought of this, right? Have you ever thought about this? I mean,

01:02:02   I think about it every time I fly into SFO. It's just, you know, if you fly over the

01:02:06   water and then you see a bunch of rocks and then there's the and there's the

01:02:10   runway right yeah and everyone you know every time I fly in there I think wow

01:02:16   it's kind of amazing that they pull this off all the time I mean I you know you'd

01:02:23   think like every once in a while someone would just come a little too short yeah

01:02:28   Scully and land right in the water yeah I guess so I don't know that does seem

01:02:34   you know again I'm not making light of it seems it seems like it was pilot error

01:02:38   just you know it doesn't seem like yeah that's what it's that's what that's what

01:02:41   it does seem like I guess it's the sort of thing they weren't going they weren't

01:02:45   going fast enough right they were supposed to be going like 130 knots

01:02:48   they're not like a hundred and it made me here it's at SeaTec there's there's a

01:02:54   lot more land in front of the it's still it's like on a raised sort of plateau

01:03:00   So you fly over a bunch of other, you know, you fly, I think there's a there's a road

01:03:05   and and then it rate and then it climbs up.

01:03:09   But there's still before you see the actual runway, I think there's a lot more dirt.

01:03:14   It's like if you were a little if you were a little short, you probably just get on to

01:03:18   the Philly seems to have really long runways because I don't really even recall seeing

01:03:23   the beginning or end of a runway.

01:03:24   It seems like we're, you know, already landing in the middle of it and already, you know,

01:03:28   taking off always in the middle of it.

01:03:30   I know I'm I don't maybe I'm wrong, but I think we have very long runways

01:03:34   The one Airport I've been to that I am NOT I've had you on we talked about your you're uncomfortable

01:03:41   Yeah, like anxiety. I'm not I'm not a nervous flyer. I've said that before

01:03:46   But the one Airport I've been to that I have to say made me a little nervous is

01:03:51   Wellington in New Zealand. Oh, yeah

01:03:57   unbelievably short runway. The runway is about 30 feet long for landing commercial airliners.

01:04:05   And you don't know that when you're landing. The first time you go, and I don't stare out

01:04:10   the window while we're landing. I don't know. I usually don't have a window seat anyway.

01:04:14   But we took a hike when we were there at Webstock and went to the mountain that overlooks it.

01:04:21   They can look right down over the airport and it's like shockingly short runway.

01:04:27   That made me a little nervous about the taking off the next time.

01:04:32   Really seems like you got it like back up like to the last inch and then really gun

01:04:35   it and then you don't take off – like the plane doesn't take off until it gets to

01:04:39   the end of the runway.

01:04:41   Seems like a – you get like one shot and one shot only.

01:04:44   Tim Cynova My brother landed on an aircraft carrier one

01:04:46   time.

01:04:47   Justin Perdue That's crazy.

01:04:48   That's nuts when you think about it.

01:04:50   He's a he does military he's like a military expert. He's not in the military but he teaches

01:04:56   at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey and occasionally in the past has gone on to these

01:05:03   ships to to do talks to the officers and and it's the only way to get on so so yeah yeah so he they

01:05:10   landed on a so that's the only way that it's a real jerk I mean you know just like stopping

01:05:16   because you basically just get yanked to a stop. The only way it works is with those like bungee

01:05:21   cords, right? Yeah, you get a hook with a tail hook and a big... you mean launching or landing?

01:05:28   Yeah, there's a tail hook both to land and then there's like a something I think there's

01:05:34   something like a catapult that launches like a slingshot. Yeah, yeah, get you up to speed. But

01:05:39   just to get the plane to stop, it's almost like flying into a net. Right.

01:05:46   All right, here's the other part about this that I this would make me very, very nervous, I have to

01:05:50   say and even as a generally non nervous flyer is the fact and I you think about it, it makes

01:05:55   intuitive sense because they investigate the hell out of these things to find you know, they're

01:05:58   going to investigate every single detail of the plane is that that the plane I don't know if it

01:06:03   is as we speak, but as of like yesterday or the day before was still there on the runway at SFO,

01:06:10   like the burned out hulk of the crashed plane because the, you know, the FAA investigators

01:06:17   were still going over it. It's like a crime scene almost. Like you can't move it.

01:06:20   And so, like, you know, there's all sorts of tweets from people who are like freaked

01:06:27   out because they're like, their plane is taxiing around to take off and it's going around a

01:06:32   crashed airplane. Like, and I have to admit that that would, that's really freaky.

01:06:36   That's a disturbing, yeah. I flew out of Tokyo one time and we got held up for just

01:06:43   a few minutes and they said, the pilot came on and said, "We're gonna be hanging out

01:06:48   here for just a minute while they clear some debris off the runway." And I'm like, "What?"

01:06:54   And then I look out the window and I see these Japanese guys in jumpsuits with these hard

01:06:58   hats on, dragging a big piece of sheet metal off the runway.

01:07:02   Holy shit.

01:07:03   And apparently on takeoff, the plane in front of us had just like dropped a, you know, a

01:07:08   piece just fell off and they, and they turned around and came back.

01:07:12   Right.

01:07:12   Um, and then we, yeah, so that was the first thing I saw before, you know, the 11 hour

01:07:16   flight back to Seattle.

01:07:19   So, uh, my wife, uh, uh, Amy is like you as a nervous flyer, very nervous.

01:07:28   Yeah.

01:07:29   So she, and she was, when this plane crash happened, she was very keenly following the

01:07:33   breaking news. But I think also like you, she was following the breaking news but not

01:07:39   looking at the pictures.

01:07:41   JE; Pictures.

01:07:42   AG; Right. Couldn't look at the pictures, wouldn't watch the video, but keenly observed.

01:07:49   It makes her... This worsened her flight anxiety, now that there's been a crash. And the fact

01:07:56   that I said, "Well, isn't that great though? Because this is like the first... It's been

01:08:00   like four and a half years since there it's like the longest stretch in the

01:08:03   history of the United States without a commercial air airline yeah which really

01:08:08   is amazing right and only two people died like I it's like we're in like the

01:08:13   the you know it's more safe than ever before almost dramatically so doesn't

01:08:20   that reassure you and she was like no it was a lot more reassuring when it was

01:08:24   four and a half years when nothing had happened exactly yeah yeah yeah I mean

01:08:29   I mean, for me, it's kind of – it's a six of one half times the other two because

01:08:32   it's – in a way, because my fear is just like I said, it's just like the whole thing

01:08:39   goes.

01:08:40   So it's kind of like, well, sometimes you have an accident and that doesn't happen.

01:08:44   But at the same time, I don't really like thinking about it.

01:08:48   Right.

01:08:49   Do you have a thing – is it for you like almost like a Wile E. Coyote type thing, like

01:08:52   where maybe – like the only reason that these planes can fly is that we think they

01:08:59   can fly. And eventually the laws of physics are going to catch up. And it's like in the middle of

01:09:02   a flight, the laws of physics are going to tap the universe's shoulder and say, "Hey, a gigantic

01:09:08   bus." Hey, look down. Yeah, exactly. Which is always when the cartoon character falls out of

01:09:14   the sky is when they look down and notice that they're hovering. A giant 100-ton tube of aluminum

01:09:19   can't fly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, none of it makes any sense. And the funny thing is my fear is

01:09:28   mid-flight. My fear is always turbulence, which is really usually not the problem. It's always

01:09:35   on takeoff and landing. And particularly landing. Actually, years ago, I took a flying lesson just

01:09:40   to try and help myself. And the guy, we've just flew around in a little plane for a while,

01:09:46   and he let me fly. And flying is flying through the air. You can fly through the air because

01:09:53   because there's nothing up there.

01:09:56   I mean, you're just flying through the air.

01:09:58   You just got to keep it level, and you fly.

01:10:00   It's landing.

01:10:01   That's the hard part.

01:10:01   And even by taking off, because you're just going up,

01:10:06   it's easier to go up than to bring it down without smashing

01:10:09   it into the ground.

01:10:10   Flying helicopters is apparently difficult.

01:10:12   Oh, that's hard.

01:10:13   Yeah.

01:10:13   But flying an airplane is apparently--

01:10:15   And jet packs.

01:10:16   Jet packs are really hard, too.

01:10:20   did you see that they had these guys had won a challenge to create a human

01:10:27   powered helicopter? You know I saw a tweet about it but didn't follow it.

01:10:33   What was it? It's like so it's like a bicycle type thing? Yeah I think it's you

01:10:37   know I didn't look at it closely but I thought that was pretty cool. Sort of

01:10:42   kind of thing that you know was it Leonardo da Vinci first dreamed of a

01:10:48   thousand years ago or however long well no it's not that long ago but I'm trying

01:10:53   to find it now yeah here it is it's seen that human-powered helicopter finally

01:10:57   takes Sikorsky Prize yeah it seems like am I imagine this from the photo that it

01:11:07   is in the normal an enormous device it's big it's it's like the wings are like

01:11:15   So the wings are like the size of like a commercial airliner

01:11:18   Yeah, it seems yes, that's a you get that's how you get get enough lift

01:11:22   It's gonna be a bitch to park these things it is

01:11:25   Anyway that was my segue a segue off an uncomfortable topic for me

01:11:37   Anything else anything other so we cover recover as far as painful painful topics for me. We've covered baseball

01:11:45   all, and flying.

01:11:51   So I don't – yeah.

01:11:55   I think that's it.

01:11:56   I don't think I have any more really uncomfortable topics if you wanted – if that's what we

01:12:02   were trying to touch on this week.

01:12:03   DAVE SMITH No, I think that will cover it all.

01:12:05   And dog poop.

01:12:06   Don't forget the dog poop.

01:12:07   My crippling fear of dog poop.

01:12:09   [LAUGHTER]