0:00:00I'm fine. How are you?
0:00:03I'm excellent. I'm excellent. So what have we got in the news this week? Here's what
0:00:12I'm thinking. I'm thinking there's a couple of people who have noticed the last couple
0:00:16of weeks on the show I've spent the whole show talking about iOS 7 design. Some people
0:00:22are a little fed up with it. So I've got a new topic. I want to run it by you. This is
0:00:25I asked you on the show this week Derek Jeter's return to the Yankees I'm
0:00:32waiting for a rods return yeah I don't think there's a big I want to know I
0:00:40want to know when that's happening I don't think they're in as big a hurry on
0:00:44that yeah he's working the concession stands right now am I right I think they
0:00:51got him in a rehab. He's doing a rehab stint working the concession stands. Hey, beer guy.
0:01:04Isn't the beer guy A-Rod?
0:01:05[laughter]
0:01:06>>AJ: He should actually do that. It would probably endear him to the fans if he'd sold
0:01:12some beer during a game.
0:01:13>>Joe Kralovski Do you guys have a deal? Is there a classic? Do you go to games that much?
0:01:18You've been to a few, right?
0:01:19Yeah, I mean, you know, it's... You don't get over there that much, do you? At least once a year I try to get to Yankee Stadium.
0:01:25You know, hopefully I'd like to go twice a year at least, but so far this year not yet.
0:01:30Is there a signature guy, like a peanut guy? We had a peanut guy at Safeco who actually worked at the kingdom for a long time, I think, before he went to Safeco.
0:01:44He's since retired, but he was like he would do I mean he would throw the peanuts at you from like 50 feet away
0:01:50There might be but I don't I'm not as I'm not you don't go enough to know that you know
0:01:57I don't know there used to be a guy. What was his name?
0:02:00There was it was a fan
0:02:01That was a guy who used to like a season ticket holder like a real old guy like a drum
0:02:04But yeah, I think he passed away unfortunately
0:02:08Moment of silence moment of silence for the guy whose name we don't know
0:02:13Yeah, but the peanut guy, at one point he disappeared and just didn't show up for work.
0:02:24People were very concerned about him.
0:02:26There were articles in the paper and things on the news about him, and finally he turned
0:02:30up.
0:02:31He just decided not to go to work for a while.
0:02:34But he would throw the peanuts from afar.
0:02:38One time he whipped them at me, and it went behind my head.
0:02:42He kind of threw, you know, he was throwing a little chin music, I guess.
0:02:45I don't know what I did.
0:02:47I don't know what I did to deserve that.
0:02:48But, and I, you know, I managed to reach behind my head and grab the bag, but it,
0:02:55but it flew open and the peanuts went everywhere and there were some people
0:02:59in front of me who, I don't know, I must've come over from Bellevue or something,
0:03:02but weren't very happy about that.
0:03:04Didn't, did not understand the, that this was, that this was a, you know,
0:03:11fan favorite thing to do is he throw in the peanuts and does he throw behind his
0:03:14back and stuff like that yes yeah I've yeah yeah yeah and I've seen him yeah I
0:03:19do realize that he is famous so you've actually gotten peanuts from the guy I
0:03:23have yeah that's been a long time I and I don't think he's I don't think he's
0:03:27there anymore but I'm not positive about that yeah that's the joy of going to the
0:03:35baseball game now I did go to a game this week though I went to Jonas and I
0:03:41and Joan and Jonas his best friends and his dad we went to see the the Phillies
0:03:46yeah had a good time it's a weird game was a very weird game the Phillies lost
0:03:51to the Nationals four to one and every single run in the game was a solo
0:03:58homerun it's kind of a weird game and Cliff Lee who was pitching for the
0:04:03Phillies and we've already lost the entire audience by the way yeah cliff
0:04:08Lee again pitch for the Phillies they lost 4-1 he gave up for solo home runs
0:04:14but he actually pitched a phenomenal game he he had I'm gonna get the exact
0:04:22numbers wrong but something like he finished the game with 70 strikes and
0:04:2512 balls he it was like the highest strike to ball ratio since the year 2000
0:04:32Like in every single major league game in the last 13 years, he just had like the highest
0:04:37strike to ball ratio. I honestly think he might have thrown four bad pitches and every single
0:04:42one of them was hit for a home run. And that was it for the day. It was a bizarre game. He was like
0:04:47on fire and yet the Phillies lost. Kind of weird. How are the Phillies doing this year?
0:04:53Not so good. They're like two games under 500. I don't know what they did last night. So maybe
0:04:59They're either one that one game under or three games under and in there would really weak division
0:05:03The National League East is I think terrible. There's no there's no excuse for not winning that division how the Mariners doing
0:05:10It's just so it's so painful
0:05:14just know I
0:05:17Know where I really don't watch the games that much anymore to say I can't bear to and but you know
0:05:21I anytime I'm out at a bar in the game happens to be on it's just
0:05:25Do you do what I used to do what I used to do here in Philly when I was in college in the 90s
0:05:30when the Phillies after
0:05:32Phillies had a great team in 93 and then 94 was the strike and then like 95 96
0:05:38We would just check the schedule and look for when Curt Schilling was pit
0:05:43No
0:05:43We really did and we just look look for home games where Curt Schilling was gonna pitch and just go, you know
0:05:49Then we'd circle them and then we'd go see him on Curt Schilling days because on Curt Schilling days
0:05:53The Phillies were one of the best teams in baseball right and when other guys are pitching
0:05:58Yeah, that's what the Mariners are like with yeah with Felix, yeah, yeah, so
0:06:04Is Ricky Henderson still playing Ricky Henderson's done right? Yeah, he's done cuz he played he played in the mine
0:06:10He went down. I mean cuz the guy just loves the game so much
0:06:12He also loves cards apparently
0:06:15But he went down played in the minors for a while after
0:06:20He finished with the A's right? I was always a big Ricky Anderson. Oh, he's great. He's so much fun
0:06:25He's he's one of those guys
0:06:27who
0:06:28The rare guy who talks about himself in the third person. Yes, right Ricky. He never uses a first-person pronoun
0:06:35It's always Ricky and yet somehow you love him for it and you don't think wow. What a douche you think
0:06:42You gotta love Ricky
0:06:44You know what the Yankees do the Yankees have a great tradition
0:06:49I don't know why all the other teams don't. I guess it's because they don't have any, they don't care about tradition.
0:06:52The Yankees have old-timers day every year. They did that a couple weeks ago.
0:06:56And so they invite, you know, a whole bunch of, you know, old-time Yankees to come and they play a game before the game.
0:07:03Like 11 o'clock, you know.
0:07:05You know, and some of the guys are only out for a couple of years and you watch them and you think, "Man,
0:07:10he looks like Paul O'Neill. Like, he looks like he could still play. Man, he hit like a ball out to the wall.
0:07:15I almost hit one out."
0:07:17And Ricky was there this year Ricky played and did of course did a snatch catch and the crowd went wild
0:07:23Right and that's the sort of thing where you just
0:07:27If it weren't Ricky Henderson and he you saw an outfielder do a snatch catch you would think what an asshole
0:07:33But it's really and you think well, of course, he's gonna do that. You can't just make a regular catch
0:07:38Real news this week, I guess the biggest news is got to be the the ebook price fixing
0:07:47case. Right. That would be it. So I guess I'm not surprised that Apple lost.
0:07:56It didn't seem good, you know, and I know it sounds funny. It seems like it's a
0:08:01weird... like this type of case is not like what you think of when you think of a
0:08:05court case because there's no jury. It was like before a judge and it's
0:08:10supposed to be this way. Like I've seen a lot of people say that this was like
0:08:13controversial because this judge coat is it coat or coats coats coats no it's
0:08:18coat coats coat you're right she said before the trial started that she found
0:08:23the DOJ's case against Apple compelling you know and right and a lot of people
0:08:28are like whoa how can she be the judge if she's already before the trial said
0:08:32that but apparently in this type of case so much of the evidence is presented
0:08:35beforehand that that's it's actually perfectly acceptable there's no that's
0:08:39That's no reason for Apple to complain. They might have other
0:08:42You know reasons to to complain but not that yeah
0:08:46It's like we just think that they go into these things and then they all present their case and then the judge decides it
0:08:52Right. Well, alright goes into a blind but that's not how it works. Well, that's how a jury case though works
0:08:57And yes jury case the jury is supposed to the judge, right?
0:09:01The jury is supposed to start with a complete blank slate as to the facts and only become you know
0:09:06Only the facts presented in quarter supposed to be entered but apparently when it's tried before a judge. It doesn't work that way, right?
0:09:12So I guess I'm not surprised because you know
0:09:15She more I mean, it's almost like it was like a courtesy. It was like you guys are screwed
0:09:19Apparently they are but they're going to appeal Apple seems adamant about it. Yeah
0:09:25And I you know, I feel like you know
0:09:29Everything Apple makes people crazy. I mean you and I have talked about this many times Apple makes Apple
0:09:36Incorporated makes people crazy. And now that this is out, there's some certain people who
0:09:42like Apple something something guilty price fixing and it's like there you go. They're
0:09:47the evil empire. They're the worst company in the world. And I really think no matter
0:09:51what your thoughts are on Apple, I really do think that it's the case is a lot more
0:09:56subtle than that. And it certainly is not the case that Apple in any way like fix things
0:10:03so as that they dominate the ebook industry because they don't dominate the ebook industry.
0:10:09They're not even the leading ebook seller. I guess they're second to Amazon, but it's
0:10:13a distant second.
0:10:14Yeah, Amazon's 90 percent, something like that?
0:10:19Yeah. I mean, it's like crazy. I mean, even with iBooks being like I think a relative
0:10:26success, I think you could still say that Kindle and the Kindle store is a monopoly
0:10:34on ebooks. So it's very strange that the company that, and Apple's sort of made this case all
0:10:42along, like isn't it strange that the company that doesn't have a monopoly is the company
0:10:47that the DOJ is pursuing for unduly influencing the market?
0:10:53Yeah, and a cynical take on that would maybe be related to when Apple was brought before
0:11:02Congress.
0:11:03When was that again?
0:11:04A few months ago.
0:11:05Yeah, it was like May.
0:11:07And at the time, it was noted that they don't really spend that much on lobbying compared
0:11:12to a lot of these other companies.
0:11:14In particular, Amazon is one of them.
0:11:16And Amazon has had to spend a lot on lobbying because of the whole sales tax issue.
0:11:22I mean, I think that's been a real big concern from them, and they spent a whole bunch of
0:11:26time trying to work that issue to try and make that thing come out in there, you know,
0:11:30so that it would work well for them.
0:11:33But if one were cynical, Gwen could say that if Apple had spent more time greasing the
0:11:41wheels of politics, maybe they wouldn't be in the position that they're in.
0:11:45You know, that's an interesting thing.
0:11:46Somebody tweeted that to me today, and I tweeted back to them that I didn't think so because
0:11:51that was Congress and this is you know the Department of Justice is the
0:11:54executive branch you know and then the judge is obvious you know in the
0:11:58judicial branch and you know I'm not saying that judges are completely
0:12:01apolitical but once you're appointed a federal judge I mean you don't have to
0:12:06keep getting reelected so there's it you know there's not as much like money
0:12:11shouldn't be employed I don't think there's any kind of well but that's on
0:12:14the judge but the fact that the case was pursued at all right I mean it is yeah
0:12:19Yeah, the Justice Department is Obama's Justice Department.
0:12:22And I don't even think it's a secret. I think that the fact that it was Amazon that brought
0:12:28... It's not like Amazon can file a suit against Apple like this, but it was Amazon that went
0:12:36to the DOJ and said, "Hey, you guys should go after these guys. They fixed this. They
0:12:42broke the Sherman Act."
0:12:45But I don't think it's even a secret that Amazon petitioned the Department of Justice
0:12:50to pursue Apple in this regard.
0:12:53Our good friend Adam Engst at Tidbits had, I think, I'd linked to it yesterday, I think
0:12:59he had an excellent overview.
0:13:01Like he read the judge's ruling.
0:13:05I didn't read the whole ruling.
0:13:06I read a lot of it though.
0:13:07And it was, it was actually, I thought it was fantastically written in terms of just
0:13:10not being like legalese or anything like that, like something a legal dum-dum like me could
0:13:15just read and sort of follow her logic and, you know, which bits of the evidence she found
0:13:22interesting and compelling. And then Adam, you know, wrote, I think, a good summary of
0:13:27that.
0:13:28Yeah. Yeah, I was rushing to finish it before we got on.
0:13:32So what's your take?
0:13:33Well, it's always been kind of a weird thing.
0:13:37I mean, at first blush it seems like, "Well, why are they going after Apple instead of going after Amazon?"
0:13:43But at the same time, the things that they went after them for, it wasn't so much the agency model as it was the things that they did on top of the agency model in order to try and make sure.
0:13:57make sure so they did the they wanted to switch to the agency model but they also wanted to make
0:14:01sure they could still sell books at the same price that Amazon sold books for so they would get most
0:14:08favored nation status in order to be able to price things lower to match Amazon's prices and then what
0:14:15was the other thing it was but there were two things that were not so much related to the agency model
0:14:18as just more specifically setting the prices. What was the other one?
0:14:27Was it the tears? Yeah, it was the tears, right? Yeah. That the price setting specific pricing
0:14:32tiers. Right. That, you know, that Apple, I think, I, you know, and this all sort of makes
0:14:41intuitive sense too, but that the, the ebook guys wanted much higher prices. Like, because pay,
0:14:51you know, or hardcover books. The publishers. The publishers. That's, yeah, the publishers,
0:14:56you know, had been selling bestsellers like, you know, Stephen King comes out with a new book or
0:15:02the Fifty Shades of Grey lady comes out with a new book. And that that's going to be like,
0:15:07you know, it's going to be a bestseller. And they're like 2530 bucks hardcover.
0:15:12But they sell them to the booksellers at like 1516 bucks with those $30 suggested price,
0:15:21and then it's up to the booksellers to price it somewhere between that suggested price and
0:15:25and whatever the wholesale cost is.
0:15:27But bestsellers are generally in hardcover in the '20s.
0:15:31And they've always managed the book market sort of like--
0:15:37and this is-- obviously, it even predates home video.
0:15:39But it's sort of like with movies where--
0:15:42first movies go in the theater.
0:15:44And they're only in the theater.
0:15:45And it's like $10 a ticket to go see it.
0:15:47And they're supposed to make a lot of money that way.
0:15:50And then they wait.
0:15:51And then four months later or whatever, the home video thing
0:15:55comes out and then you can buy the DVD and get a Blu-ray or buy it on iTunes or whatever.
0:16:02And then three months later or six months after that, then maybe they'll put it on HBO
0:16:07and then you can watch it on HBO, etc. And then two years later, you know, then you can
0:16:12watch it on some stupid commercial channel. There's these tiers and they could roll them
0:16:17out. The book market has always been first the hardcover and then some number of months
0:16:21later then they come out with a nice paperback version of it and it's cheaper
0:16:25even though it's the exact same book it's just sort of you know and probably
0:16:29way more cheaper than the difference in the actual materials between a hard
0:16:34cover and a paperback and so with ebooks that that you the whole concept of
0:16:39ebooks sort of destroys that it's it it there's there's no you can't make like a
0:16:45good version and a better version like paperback hardcover there's just the
0:16:49book.
0:16:50Right.
0:16:51Retina or non-retina?
0:16:52Yeah, maybe.
0:16:53Right?
0:16:54Nice fonts.
0:16:55It's a terrible font.
0:16:56You can get a Comic Sans version real cheap.
0:17:04We shouldn't even mention that.
0:17:05Someone will start doing it.
0:17:06Yeah, somebody out there is taking notes and saying, "Hmmm, it's a genius."
0:17:09It's not a bad idea.
0:17:12And you know, like all of – like the music industry before it, they want to put the genie
0:17:16back in the hat and go back to the days when they could sell the new Stephen King book
0:17:19for $29.99 instead of $9.99. And I think Apple based on, you know, I'm not just intuiting
0:17:29that. I mean, I'm looking at the testimony. Apple, you know, more or less went to these
0:17:33guys and said, Look, you know, you guys got to get realistic. The e book, you know, 15
0:17:39bucks is kind of high for any, you know, that that should be like your target for like a
0:17:42a high, like a bestseller, 15 bucks.
0:17:45Like, trust us, we know what people are willing to spend
0:17:49in an online transaction thing.
0:17:52We've sold a lot of music, we've sold a lot of apps.
0:17:5515 bucks is really what you should be looking at,
0:17:58and then 12 and 11 for older books or something like that.
0:18:01And yeah, but it looks like that sort of tiering strategy,
0:18:08and I guess they got, it's not just like a suggestion,
0:18:12was sort of like a rule from Apple.
0:18:14Definitely counted against them.
0:18:16Yeah.
0:18:17I mean, when you take that and you take it to all the major publishers and say, "Hey,
0:18:22let's do this."
0:18:23Okay.
0:18:24I mean, that sounds like what you traditionally think of as price fixing.
0:18:30Well, and then there's also the collusion because they had the phone records and showed
0:18:35that you know prior to eddy cues like whirlwind tour of the New York publishers you know that
0:18:43these publishers had made very few calls between each other and then as soon as eddy q hit town
0:18:48there was a whole bunch of calls from shimon and shuster to random house and random house to
0:18:54you know whoever else suggesting that they were you know all sort of in on it together but the
0:19:00The thing is, I don't know how this could have happened without Apple saying, "You
0:19:06guys should, if you're going to switch to the agency model," which is really effectively
0:19:16– it's not that complicated. It's the App Store model where you set as the seller,
0:19:23you the publisher, you don't set a wholesale price. You set the resale, the retail price.
0:19:29We take 30% and you keep 70% and that's it.
0:19:34You set a price, the customer pays it and we'll give you 70% of that.
0:19:41Because that's another way of thinking about it is that Apple went to these publishers
0:19:45and said, "We want to sell e-books exactly like we sell apps.
0:19:51You set a price, we'll give you 70% and we'll handle all the distribution."
0:19:57I don't see how they could have done that without getting them all on board.
0:20:00All right, I...
0:20:02I guess not.
0:20:05And I guess that's the other thing I'm still confused about is what could Apple have done
0:20:13differently to not be guilty of price fixing in this case?
0:20:20Would it have been enough for them not to get the MFN clause, the whatever, if you're
0:20:26selling it at a lower price somewhere else we get to match the price is if
0:20:30they wouldn't have had that clause would that have been enough that might have
0:20:34been enough because I mean I would think that Amazon would have had less of an
0:20:38objection and would have been less likely to take you know go to the
0:20:42Justice Department and say hey go after these guys I don't because that's what
0:20:46really because I think that's what Amazon really wanted to be able to do
0:20:49though is they wanted to they wanted to have these lost leaders that they could
0:20:53sell just to get people to come to the site.
0:20:55Right, because with the agency model, you can't sell at a loss.
0:21:00Because there is no wholesale retail difference.
0:21:08It's the seller, the creator picks a retail price and you just give them 70% of it.
0:21:13There is no way to undercut the price.
0:21:16And Apple never would have been able to sell those books for that price.
0:21:22the publishers wouldn't have set them that well right Amazon Amazon would have
0:21:28chugged along happily as it as it had been and I'm not sure about this but
0:21:31this is my guess and because they would be able to still sell books at $9.99
0:21:36all right I guess maybe the other way would be that would have made Amazon
0:21:41happy and I can't help but think would have you know made this a non-issue from
0:21:47the Department of Justice's angle is, okay, you call it the agency model and let's say
0:21:54John Moltz comes out with a new novel published by Random House and Random House wants it
0:21:58to sell for $14.99. Amazon could still sell it for $9.99 and just give you 70% of $14.99.
0:22:09It's the fact that the contracts for these publishers in the new agency model forbid
0:22:14the retailer from changing the price.
0:22:16You know, it's the price you set and it has to be that.
0:22:22I guess the fundamental issue in the whole thing is the fact that Amazon, this is what
0:22:27I keep thinking about, is that Amazon is such an unbelievably different company than anybody
0:22:34would have ever expected to exist.
0:22:38They don't pursue profits and their shareholders don't hold them.
0:22:44Don't care.
0:22:45Don't care.
0:22:46And I'm not even saying that that doesn't make sense, that there isn't a certain sense
0:22:49to it because look at what they've done to the physical book industry, right?
0:22:55They've not quite destroyed it but almost destroyed it.
0:22:58I mean Borders is out of business.
0:22:59Barnes and Noble is in trouble.
0:23:04And it's the fact that like this whole – the whole traditional wholesale retail pricing
0:23:10thing was from the publisher's perspective was built on, all right, we'll set a wholesale
0:23:17price of 15 bucks for the book.
0:23:19We'll put a thing on the cover that says retail $30.
0:23:23And we just assume that everybody we ship it to, you know, from booksellers to Walmarts
0:23:29to whoever is going to sell it at a retail price in between $15 and $30, probably closer
0:23:35to $30. If they want to sell it closer to $15, go nuts. But they know it's going to
0:23:39be above $15 because if it was under $15, it's unsustainable because it's a loss, right?
0:23:45And nobody can go forever selling books at a loss. Nobody ever thinks that except Amazon
0:23:49figured out a way to do that by selling enough other stuff for profits to break even. And
0:23:58And so, you know, forever, they've sold books at a loss just so that they can dominate the
0:24:03industry. And I don't think anybody ever anticipated that a company would exist that for – I
0:24:09mean, how long has Amazon been selling books? Probably about close to 20 years, you know,
0:24:13for 15 to 16, 17 years would continuously sell every book at a loss.
0:24:19Yeah, it's unbelievable.
0:24:21And they just never anticipated that. And then I think taking that same business model
0:24:30to ebooks where Amazon didn't have to destroy the existing infrastructure of physical book
0:24:38sellers, your borders, your Barnes and Nobles, you know, the smaller ones that are inside
0:24:44your malls, targets and Walmart's and everywhere else where you could traditionally buy books,
0:24:50didn't have to destroy that because the ebook market was brand new and Amazon
0:24:54came right out of the gate and and sort of established themselves as the leader
0:24:58I remember being all pie-eyed at the time thinking oh this is great you know
0:25:04now that we're gonna get ebooks we'll be able to pay a lot less for books cuz
0:25:09it's just you know it's just ones and zeros and I are paying basically what we
0:25:15always paid. Oh no I don't know about that. I think ebooks are cheaper than...
0:25:20Well maybe I'm maybe on inflation but I mean... we used to get
0:25:25paperbacks for seven eight bucks. I just assumed... I thought we'd get ebooks for
0:25:32like two dollars. Hmm. Because there was no printing cost they just send you the
0:25:38And because you would like to see authors starve.
0:25:43Yeah. Well, I also assumed that the authors weren't really getting all the money anyway, and I didn't care if Random House starved.
0:25:51Keep sending the same amount to the author, or just squeeze out Random House.
0:25:56house.
0:25:57I do think, and I think that's something about this ebook case where it's more complicated
0:26:03than I think a typical case because there's a bunch of interested parties. Clearly there's
0:26:09Amazon and Apple. And Amazon and Apple are both fine no matter what. They're both very,
0:26:13very successful companies. And Apple in particular doesn't need ebooks at all. They could just
0:26:21get out of the e-book business and it would be a rounding error in their
0:26:25finances you know mm-hmm they could and people would probably still read just as
0:26:30many ebooks on their iPads because they would just switched and just do it all
0:26:34on Kindle app probably wouldn't decrease the actual reading of ebooks on iPads
0:26:39at all there's the publishers there's authors and then of course there's
0:26:48consumers, the readers. And so what I see on Twitter and in my email from people
0:26:55who send me feedback on my coverage of the case, and which hasn't been extensive,
0:26:59I mean, but you know, there's definitely a strong contingent of the
0:27:07consumer side. Probably people listening to the show right now, you know, but
0:27:12definitely people who read my stuff whose take on it is as simple as lower
0:27:18prices are better for consumers, period. And so, you know, Amazon is selling all ebooks
0:27:24or trying to sell all of them at the most $9.99 was great for readers. And Apple's entry
0:27:30into the market, breaking that and raising a lot of ebook prices to $15, you know, and
0:27:37an average that's now somewhere between 10 and $15 is, you know, in and of itself bad.
0:27:43It is you know the market is now in worse shape than it was before and so it's good
0:27:48That the Department of Justice went after Apple because this is a bad thing
0:27:52And I you know there's a certain logic to that argument
0:27:56but I'd I really think that the short I think it's short-sighted because I don't think it's I don't think that the
0:28:02Amazon dominating the e-book market was going to be good for consumers in the long term right and I don't either
0:28:09And you see it. There was a New York Times article last month about how
0:28:13Amazon has started now finally raising prices on physical books
0:28:19After years and years of always being the lowest, you know price now that they dominate it so strongly
0:28:25And they've driven so many other competitors out of business now, they're starting to raise prices
0:28:30and I think that's almost certainly what they would have done or might even still do with the e-book market someday is
0:28:38Grow to dominate it so strongly that they can eventually, you know that everybody's dependent upon them and then they can say okay
0:28:44Now we're gonna keep selling books
0:28:47I think that their long-term plan was in the short term keep buying these wholesale ebooks at 15
0:28:521415 bucks sell them at 999 at a loss, but then eventually go to the publishers and say, you know
0:28:59We're sick of selling these things at a loss
0:29:00We're gonna keep selling them to people at 999, but we're only gonna give you seven dollars for them
0:29:06And now we're gonna keep two dollars of it and that's it take it or leave it
0:29:09And if they're selling 90% of all ebooks, they might have to take that
0:29:14I think that's the future that publishers feared and I don't think that there's you know
0:29:18Any reason to think that that's a crazy theory, right?
0:29:21And I you know, I think that's sort of along the lines of the argument Steve Jobs laid out in one of the emails that they
0:29:27had is
0:29:29Evidence, you know, I think to Rupert Murdoch's kid
0:29:32Jimmy Murdoch
0:29:35Well, what was it?
0:29:40The individually published books before Apple got in—how am I remembering this correctly?
0:29:48Didn't they sell—it was flipped, right?
0:29:53Before Apple launched the App Store—was it the App Store?
0:29:58Amazon took 70% as opposed to 30%.
0:30:00Hmm.
0:30:01I'm trying to remember what I'm missing something there but but there was
0:30:04something and I'm assuming that it was individually published books yeah I think
0:30:08it was because you could because you could publish a book as an app when the
0:30:11App Store came out maybe that's it but no I think but it was basically yeah
0:30:20they were taking 70% and then Apple came out right with their with their solution
0:30:25and they had to flip it because Apple was only taking 30%.
0:30:30So it doesn't, yeah, I mean,
0:30:34even though they're selling things cheaply now,
0:30:37it's not to say that they always would,
0:30:41or that always selling things cheaply
0:30:44is necessarily the best thing.
0:30:45I think the App Store, I mean,
0:30:49and Apple's App Store is also an example of that.
0:30:53Well, and I think that there's a certain fundamental truth to it that it's, it is ultimately unsustainable.
0:31:00I mean, at some point in theory, I think, you know, and maybe, you know, we're maybe
0:31:05we're literally talking about decades, you know, the decades long event horizon, Amazon
0:31:11can't keep selling them at a loss, something's got to give, you know, it's unsustainable.
0:31:16And it's all, you know, in general, I think it's better to set up a business to be sustainable
0:31:21right from the start. And the agency model is sustainable because there's no selling
0:31:27at a loss involved.
0:31:28Tim Cynova Yeah, I guess I wonder what sustainable means
0:31:32though. They've been doing it for 15 years. That's a fairly long horizon.
0:31:39Dave Asprey Yeah, I guess so. The thing that has always
0:31:43made me, you know, amenable to Apple's side of the argument is the fact that the
0:31:50Authors Guild, I mean that's not to say all authors certainly, I mean the Authors
0:31:55Guild doesn't speak for everybody, but the Authors Guild was strongly on Apple's
0:32:00side, you know, and was against Amazon's side, you know, and the other thing too, I
0:32:04mean, and it's not even about sustainability, it's just sort of the,
0:32:09It's the way that pricing is part of your branding, right?
0:32:13Your price is part – for any product is sort of part of the brand.
0:32:18And the publishers were concerned about the $9.99 e-book pricing because they felt like
0:32:22it was setting the expectation in consumers' minds that e-books were worth a lot less than
0:32:30physical books.
0:32:31And it's like you even said a few minutes ago.
0:32:33Maybe that is right.
0:32:37Because you're not paying for all of this paper and printing and all the physical shipping
0:32:42and that truck loaded up with all these books to drive across the country and ship these
0:32:47books everywhere that you should expect to pay a lot less.
0:32:51Maybe, but the publishers didn't like it.
0:32:54And they realized, I think, correctly, I think, that the longer Amazon went selling bestsellers
0:32:59like brand new books for $9.99, the more strongly entrenched in consumer minds it would be that
0:33:04that that's what ebooks should cost.
0:33:08Yeah, so it devalues their products.
0:33:12Right.
0:33:13It's almost like a control issue that they've lost control over the pricing of their own
0:33:16product, which I think is frustrating.
0:33:19And maybe they're wrong.
0:33:20Maybe they're wrong about expecting to get those higher prices.
0:33:23But I don't think that they were wrong to think that they should be the ones who get
0:33:27to pick the price for their product.
0:33:29Yeah, I would certainly agree with that.
0:33:32Well, let's take a break.
0:33:34Just because, yeah, okay.
0:33:35I'll take a break.
0:33:36We'll come back to it.
0:33:37We'll keep going on eBooks for a little bit.
0:33:38But first, bizarre coincidence truly, but I want to tell you about the first sponsor
0:33:46is Tableau Publishing.
0:33:48They spell it T-A-B-L-O.
0:33:51No Frenchy spelling.
0:33:53T-A-B-L-O.
0:33:54What does Tableau do?
0:33:58Here's what they do.
0:33:59They let you create e-books in the cloud and publish them with a single click.
0:34:04Now, in the past, publishing your own e-books is very complicated at a technical level.
0:34:10First, different file formats. iPad uses the EPUB.
0:34:14Kindle uses their own format. All sorts of differences between the formats.
0:34:20Different formats for different devices. Different tricks you need to do to make it look
0:34:24good on different devices, registering ISBN numbers for each of your books because certain
0:34:30booksellers aren't gonna sell books that don't have them. And different publishers have all
0:34:35sorts of different requirements. Well, here's the thing. Tableau centralizes all of this.
0:34:38You don't have to worry about any of it. They make it easy for anyone to take any, to create
0:34:42an e-book and publish it to all the major e-bookstores. You create your books in the
0:34:47cloud using any device. You style your text. You drop in images. You make your own chapter
0:34:52divisions and then with one click you can publish your books to both Amazon and the
0:34:57iBook store. It's really easy to cut and paste your existing work. So if you already have
0:35:02a book written or let's say like a big pile of blog posts that you want to collect into
0:35:08a book, you just copy and paste them into their web app and you're off. It takes all
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0:35:21free to create your books. How do you get started? Go to Tableau dot io, ta b l o dot
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0:35:45check it out for free, see how it works. Take a look. And when you're ready to go use that
0:35:51code the talk show and you'll save you'll save some dough so my thanks to
0:35:54tableau publishing for sponsoring the show kind of freaky because these
0:35:59sponsorships have been booked weeks in advance and I I did not you know I
0:36:07didn't call judge coats and say hey could you could you issue your ruling
0:36:11this week because I have a sponsor who's in a book publishing so eddy Q is I
0:36:20guests going to jail is that how this works again no that's where they got him
0:36:30right it's like a work release program he seems like a guy who could handle
0:36:36himself in jail yeah he does he's a Duke fan so you know yeah him and Bob
0:36:41Mansfield would they would uh man they would just run the place Bob Mansfield
0:36:47would have no problem whatsoever. Big Bob Manfield.
0:36:54Forstell, they would have traded like cigarettes.
0:36:57He'd be in trouble.
0:37:06No, I know. What is it? It's like a fine, right? I mean, it's just like a – they have to pay back people who bought e-books.
0:37:16I guess what I do, you know, I'm confused about that, too. I guess that, you know, first
0:37:22Apple has said there, you know, who knows if they're going to follow through, but they
0:37:25said they're going to appeal. And I guess if they do, then the appeal has to come first.
0:37:31Let's presume that either they don't appeal or they appeal and lose. Then it's it's a
0:37:37separate hearing to establish damages and and you know, Apple's gonna have to pay some
0:37:42number of million dollars where does the money go though I don't know does it did
0:37:47the government just take it or is it somehow read only did it huh yeah I
0:37:50think you'd end up well I don't know it's not a class suit right it's not a
0:37:54class-action lawsuit so I don't I don't see how they could possibly return the
0:37:57money to write consumers I think that you'd pay the fine to the government and
0:38:01government keeps it huh it goes right to Obama that's how that works right is
0:38:11Was that Rian Noel? I don't want to get into that. We'll lose the people who made it through
0:38:20the sports references.
0:38:23I guess that's how it works.
0:38:27Yeah I guess. I mean that's, I'm trying to think of what, so, well, Microsoft, their
0:38:34suit was different. They basically had to break up their products, right? I don't think
0:38:43they had a fine.
0:38:44And that was a far bigger and more complicated and wider reaching case because again, that
0:38:50was about the fundamentals of the company. That was about Windows and Office. I mean,
0:38:56it was about everything that Microsoft-- the Microsoft case was truly about everything
0:39:01fundamental to the company. Whereas like I said, you know, if the ruling were, I mean,
0:39:06what, I don't, this isn't even on the table, but if the ruling were Apple is forced to
0:39:10leave the ebook market, I bookstore is shut down. That would, I would have almost no effect
0:39:15on Apple whatsoever. I mean, maybe that's overstating it a bit, but it, you know, I
0:39:21think it would be embarrassing certainly, but certainly gives, it certainly gives Amazon
0:39:25leverage yeah but you know which should which you know what ultimately is bad
0:39:30for consumers but anyway but that's not what's happening but the other thing
0:39:35though is that it's it's not gonna put the genie back in the bottle and switch
0:39:39the market back to the way it was before wholesale retail like the agency model
0:39:43still stands between even with publishers and Amazon you know it's like
0:39:53again, a bunch of the publishers, or I guess all of the publishers, rather than stand with
0:39:57Apple and fight the case, all of the publishers settled with the DOJ, you know, a year ago
0:40:01or months ago, and I guess just paid fines, but they didn't really have to change the
0:40:06way they do business.
0:40:10So yeah, because the next phase of the trial was supposed to be damages.
0:40:18Right.
0:40:19But...
0:40:20I think the judges is going to pick some number of $50 million or something like that and
0:40:24Apple pays a fine and then the whole thing gets forgotten. But I mean it. And I think
0:40:30that henceforth, all ebooks are sold on the agency model, both on the iBook store and
0:40:36Kindle store.
0:40:37JE: Right. Seems strange. Seems like if the people who were hurt are the people... Although
0:40:46So I guess the theory is also that Amazon customers were hurt by it too.
0:40:51I guess so.
0:40:52But they can't send money back to Amazon customers.
0:40:53Right.
0:40:54But there's nothing...it's like the tactics were illegal, you know, or found to be illegal.
0:41:00You know, that the way that Apple went to all of them and said, "Hey, everybody else
0:41:04is on board.
0:41:05We want you on board too."
0:41:07That's what's illegal.
0:41:08I mean, it's like you said before, the agency model itself, there's nothing illegal about
0:41:11it.
0:41:12I mean, nobody's complaining or saying that the App Store is in any way, you know, price
0:41:15fixing. It was the collusion between the publishers to all do this at once and
0:41:22Apple as the coordinator of that or maybe facilitator is the better word
0:41:28because they were gonna you know open this high-profile store where it could
0:41:32start. So we all pay less in our taxes next year? Yeah, exactly. Big tax cut
0:41:45coming thanks to Uncle Tim. I'll go buy a new MacBook. Free MacBooks for everybody.
0:41:55That seems wrong. Oh man. So I guess there's anything else on the e-book thing? No, we
0:42:05should maybe should we talk about the other big suit that's coming up? What's
0:42:08What's that?
0:42:09Let me see if I can find the title of this one.
0:42:19Apple should protect me from my porn addiction.
0:42:21This is going to be a big case.
0:42:23All right.
0:42:24Let's hear about it.
0:42:27A Florida man.
0:42:29That's always Florida man.
0:42:30Florida man.
0:42:33This is Above the Law, which I guess is a law blog, is suing Apple for millions because
0:42:40he couldn't be bothered to figure out how iTunes works.
0:42:44He is complaining that Apple products should ship with basically the child protection on
0:42:52so that people cannot accidentally visit porn sites because he accidentally visited porn
0:42:58sites and it ruined his marriage.
0:43:01Yes, accidentally. He apparently typed in, instead of Facebook, he typed in a popular
0:43:08porn site. Also starting with F and ending with book.
0:43:14Alright, that's a good way to put it. With an "uck" in the middle. Accidentally. Accidentally.
0:43:21You know how that happens. Curse you, autocomplete.
0:43:28Yeah, because that's what autocomplete does. It puts in swear words where you were going
0:43:33to put in regular words.
0:43:35So he wound up at fbook.com and then his life went to hell.
0:43:39Right.
0:43:40And clearly…
0:43:41His marriage was ruined because he couldn't stop looking at naked ladies.
0:43:48Because of a defective Macbook that kept showing him porn that he was asking it to show him.
0:43:57And the the the complaint is written is just it's just great. I mean, it's the bits I didn't read the whole thing. But the bits that are that are quoted in this piece are just hysterical.
0:44:08Yeah, that's that's a court case. I could I could Yeah, I am looking forward to this. I hope this goes to trial. Yeah. I don't think it will. I want to I want to I want to get I want to see Phil Schiller on the stand and answer for this.
0:44:24As human beings themselves Apple employees know that a man is born full of harmonies and attacked
0:44:32Attacked to by women engaging in sexual acts with the intent to cause vicarious arousal
0:44:39Direct quote from the from the lawsuit. Yeah, I got a feeling that this guy I got a feeling this guy might need a better lawyer
0:44:48than himself
0:44:53apparently is a fairly a lawyer and and also also he has his own band of course
0:45:01he does what's the name of the band do they say it's I looked it up earlier
0:45:08it's ghost wars hmm here's my favorite part of his his lawsuit is the the
0:45:21unfair competition clause and you know what and he's got a point now apples
0:45:25already just you know two days ago been found guilty of unfair competition so I
0:45:30think he's got a case here unfair competition and interference of the
0:45:34marital contract the plaintiff became totally out of sync and his romantic
0:45:39relationship with his wife which was a consequence of his use of his Apple
0:45:44product there you go I mean I'd right stop that the all the rest of it there
0:45:49There you go. I mean, that's it. There's your case. He got it out of sync with his wife.
0:45:56Right. He also claims that if this is...
0:46:03This is literally...
0:46:05It'll help the... I'm trying to find it. It'll actually help the porn industry if Apple is
0:46:10sued because it will... Where is it? Unrig it because Apple is sued.
0:46:17Because unregulated internet porn is hurting brick and mortar or mom and pop porn shops.
0:46:27[laughter]
0:46:28>> Mike Bausch It is the guy from above the law that says,
0:46:34first of all, mom and pop porn shops is going into the pantheon of greatest phrases and
0:46:39legal complaints.
0:46:40>> John
0:46:40I like this part.
0:46:43The plaintiff began desiring younger, more beautiful girls featured in porn videos than
0:46:47his wife, who was no longer 21.
0:46:54His failed marriage caused the plaintiff to experience emotional distress to the point
0:46:59of hospitalization.
0:47:02Plaintiff could no longer tell the difference between internet pornography and tangible
0:47:06intercourse due to the content he accessed through the Apple products.
0:47:12You couldn't tell the difference?
0:47:13If you can't tell the difference, you may be doing it wrong.
0:47:16Am I screwing my wife at this moment or am I looking at Borno on a laptop?
0:47:22I can't tell.
0:47:23I bet he had a retina.
0:47:25I was going to say that.
0:47:27It's got to be a retina, Mac, because the pixels would have been a dead giveaway.
0:47:31That's right.
0:47:32would have been a dead giveaway so we'll look forward to more about that well and
0:47:42that coincidentally enough leads us directly into our next sponsor our next
0:47:52sponsor yeah our second sponsor is domestic beast and they have absolutely
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0:48:39And you can tell as soon as you get to the website, you can see, "Oh, man, this is nice.
0:48:43It's a nice design site." They've got great products, though. They've clever stuff. They've
0:48:46got a dog bowl designed to make dogs eat slower. Because I've seen dogs. I don't know about you,
0:48:51you've got a dog, right? But there are some dogs who are sort of pathological about food
0:48:57and and we'll try to eat it all at once. Yes. My dog growing up. Oh yeah, no he goes through,
0:49:02oh yeah, no I mean. My dog growing up was sort of like that, like he he was sort of like a great
0:49:07depression dog. Right, they're all like that. He would try to eat an entire bowl of food at once,
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0:49:18they've got a poop bag that's shaped like a mitten for easy pickup. Oh man. Isn't that great? Now
0:49:25Now that, I mean, you know, if you're a city dweller,
0:49:29I mean, that's, you know, what to do with the poop
0:49:31is a serious issue.
0:49:32I mean, we're civilized people here.
0:49:34I guarantee you, I would be appalled
0:49:37if there was anybody out there who listens to this talk show
0:49:39who's one of those dirtbags who takes their dog out
0:49:42and lets him poop and then looks, you know,
0:49:44does like a left, right, and if nobody's looking,
0:49:46just walks away and leaves it there.
0:49:47Because you're, you know, that's the scum
0:49:49of the earth right there.
0:49:50- Yes.
0:49:51- Everybody who listens to this show is civilized.
0:49:52You pick up the poop, but how do you pick up the poop?
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0:50:10Right. I think this to me is a fantastic sponsorship for this
0:50:15show because the show in general has nothing to do with dogs. I
0:50:19don't generally link to dog related stuff. But my audience I
0:50:24would think is that it's defined by people who have good taste and like the
0:50:28nicer things in life and so those of you who have dogs I this stuff is is right
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0:50:43money you yes well you know it's stuff we have to buy anyway well except for
0:50:47the probably the coats and stuff like that but the poop bags I mean we have to
0:50:51the poop bags anyway. I also like that they just call it poop. Yeah, it's it you hover
0:50:56you hover over the thing and it says see poop. Yeah, view, view, view. And it's it is also I
0:51:02would just further say and and to me it just speaks to the design quality of their products
0:51:08or it implies it. The website is just lovely. I think it's a terrific, terrific website. Yeah.
0:51:16Really like it.
0:51:17This is good.
0:51:18Yeah, I have an internet famous poodle.
0:51:22I don't know if you knew that.
0:51:23I do know that.
0:51:24No, your poodle is nuts.
0:51:26Yeah.
0:51:27He's big.
0:51:28He's 85 pounds because he eats all of his food.
0:51:37So maybe if we get him, maybe he can slim down a little bit.
0:51:40Big ass poodle.
0:51:41He's barely a little bit overweight.
0:51:44Big Ass Poodle is one of my favorite dog breeds.
0:51:47It really is.
0:51:48I mean it sincerely.
0:51:49I need to – I should get the URL.
0:51:52Big Ass Poodle?
0:51:53Yeah.
0:51:54Isn't that the technical name for that breed?
0:51:57As far as I'm concerned.
0:51:59There's the Miniature Poodle.
0:52:00Standard is what it is, actually.
0:52:03There's – but that's – so, standard is the big one?
0:52:06Yeah.
0:52:07Standard is the big one.
0:52:08Oh, see, I thought – let's see, but I would think standard –
0:52:10You'd think that standard would be like the middle.
0:52:11The knee-high one.
0:52:12Yeah.
0:52:13I don't know what that is because there's oh, you know, that's miniature and then the small ones are teacup. Oh teacup
0:52:19Ah, that's the one where like the that's the one that shakes all the time and that the
0:52:24You'll see like girls who put them in their purse and just walk around town with them in a purse, right?
0:52:29Right your your dog. What's your dog's name Grant Grant? That's a good dog name. So grant probably does not fit in a purse
0:52:36No doesn't fit in anything
0:52:41Is he good in the car?
0:52:47He's all right.
0:52:48He's not crazy about the car, but he wants to go wherever we go.
0:52:51So if we're going to the car, he wants to go get in the car.
0:52:54He used to get car sick when he was younger, and he's better about it now.
0:52:59He doesn't really get that sick, but he's not crazy about the car particularly.
0:53:03He doesn't stick his head out the window.
0:53:06My dog growing up, Chester, he was a head sticker outer.
0:53:10Love to stick his head out the window.
0:53:12Just nuts for it.
0:53:14Even if the window wasn't even open a crack, he would just sit there and paw at the window.
0:53:19Make this thing go down.
0:53:20I want to stick my head out the window.
0:53:21Yeah.
0:53:22Our dog fell out the window doing that.
0:53:23No, you're kidding me.
0:53:24We were driving down the road.
0:53:26Mitt Romney style.
0:53:27Yeah.
0:53:28Well, fortunately, my brother had her on a leash.
0:53:30Oh, my God.
0:53:31And he basically just...
0:53:32We were driving on...
0:53:33She was a small...
0:53:34She was a West Island Terrier.
0:53:37And we were driving along and he was hanging on to the leash.
0:53:39hanging there by the leash like choking a D screaming stop stop so she was all
0:53:46right so she was fine just back in the car nothing happened the car you know
0:53:51still shaken up maybe they forget about that after a while though is this one of
0:53:57those things now we're gonna have to put some kind of SPCA warning at the end
0:54:00podcast no dogs were we're harmed making in the making of this podcast
0:54:05does grant know when you're taking him to the vet no my dog growing up it's it
0:54:11well actually I think he probably does when we get close we see we you know he
0:54:16can see knows he recognizes places when we get close to them we would take take
0:54:20Chester Chester was a like a mutt it was but a best we could determine he was
0:54:26probably about three quarters poodle and maybe like one quarter Pekingese or
0:54:31something like that. But looked, you know, he didn't have the curly hair, but
0:54:36physically looked a lot like a poodle. I mean, there was clearly a lot of poodle in him.
0:54:39But he was, you know, maybe like knee-high. We used to take him a lot of
0:54:42places, take him to shopping and just leave him in the car, crack a window. But
0:54:46he would spend a lot of time, you know, so we took him a lot of places in the car.
0:54:48He'd go out in the car a couple times a week. When we took him to the vet, he knew
0:54:53before we even left the house. He just knew. He knew and he would go like rigid-
0:54:58legged and would dig his nails into the carpet and would make you pick them up. As opposed
0:55:04to if we're going to Kmart or something, he just opened the door and he'd run to the car.
0:55:09He knew.
0:55:10He could smell it. Maybe he could smell it on you.
0:55:12I don't know. Something about that always amazed me.
0:55:14Yeah. It's amazing how much they use their nose. You talk to him and he's sitting there
0:55:21smelling you, trying to figure out what's going on because he can tell.
0:55:26That's how I feel about going to the dentist.
0:55:29I can't blame them.
0:55:31That's probably how you feel about going to the airport.
0:55:34Oh, yeah.
0:55:35Yes, it is, actually.
0:55:37It's exactly that.
0:55:39Can we – is it – are you comfortable talking about this?
0:55:41I want to talk about the plane.
0:55:42No, I'm not comfortable talking about it, but we can talk about it anyway.
0:55:44The plane that crashed at SFO a week ago.
0:55:47What was it?
0:55:48About a week ago?
0:55:49Yeah, something like that.
0:55:50Yeah.
0:55:51I think it's almost exactly a week ago, right?
0:55:53Yeah.
0:55:54It was last Thursday and Friday?
0:55:55which I had never heard of before.
0:55:58I thought it was the airline I lost.
0:56:01It's so amazing, because that was Oceana.
0:56:04Oceana Airlines.
0:56:07Oceanic.
0:56:08But close enough.
0:56:11I'm going to make light of this a little bit, and I do not mean to make light of the two teenagers from China who died on the flight,
0:56:19or of any of the people who did have some...
0:56:22Luckily, here's the thing that's amazing.
0:56:24The plane actually crashed.
0:56:25It was a crash.
0:56:26There was fire.
0:56:27The tail ripped off the plane.
0:56:30And out of like 303 people on the plane, only two people died, which to me is amazing.
0:56:34Yeah.
0:56:35Yeah.
0:56:36And I mean, you know, and as someone who is uncomfortable flying, it's actually, you know,
0:56:42it's terrible.
0:56:43But it's also because my image is always just like the whole everything goes.
0:56:47Fireball.
0:56:48Right.
0:56:49Yeah.
0:56:50Just everything reduced to dust.
0:56:51Right.
0:56:52And so, it's heartbreaking to think of the two girls who died, and I don't mean to make
0:57:01light of that. And there were a hundred and some people who had to go to the hospital
0:57:05for varying degrees of injuries. A lot of people, neck injuries and back injuries from
0:57:10the bouncing up and down. And I guess even with seat belts on, a lot of people hit their
0:57:14heads on the overhead thing.
0:57:18Oh, is that right?
0:57:19Yeah.
0:57:20I mean, well, it probably depends on how tight you keep the seatbelt too.
0:57:23Well, did you see the video?
0:57:25So there was a guy.
0:57:26No.
0:57:27No.
0:57:28I've…
0:57:29There was a guy…
0:57:30I've assiduously avoided any…
0:57:31There was a guy…
0:57:32I'm talking about…
0:57:33…who was just, you know, I forget how far away he was from the airport, but not too
0:57:37far.
0:57:38You know, had like a good view of the runways and was there with his family on a trip like
0:57:41his kids and he had a camera and they were just watching planes land.
0:57:45he had his camera, you know, right there and saw the plane, you know, the whole thing. It's
0:57:51kind of amazing footage. But it did it like hit, you know, it I guess that I guess what happened is
0:57:59the plane was coming in way too soon and was going to hit the water before the pilot realized it and
0:58:04tried to pull up but it was too late to pull up. But that's why the plane hit tail first because
0:58:09the pilot had the nose rising nose pointing up to try to get back up in the air but it was too late
0:58:16and so it hit tail first and the tail broke off whole plane hit the ground and then it like
0:58:23bounced up in the air and then came back down and skidded to a halt but i guess when it bounced a
0:58:28lot of people went up and hit their head so people are hurt but there were also a couple like a hundred
0:58:32hundred and some people, or like 160 people who walked away unscathed. Right? So there's
0:58:39a guy on Twitter. It's amazing. This guy David, I might pronounce his surname wrong, Eun.
0:58:44E-U-N. David Eun. You know, and it seems--
0:58:49>>AJ (off-screen) Did you see the guy? He worked for Samsung? Was he--
0:58:51>>John (off-screen) I don't know if he works for Samsung or what.
0:58:54>>AJ I thought that guy, because he was--wasn't he the first guy that the picture--he posted
0:58:59on Twitter that I don't think I just you know I just crash-landed yeah here's his
0:59:03tweet I'll put it in the show notes I just crash-landed at SFO tail ripped off
0:59:07it's a it's a path link yeah most like the picture everyone seems most everyone
0:59:12I thought he worked for Samsung little maybe he does I don't think so but but
0:59:17he is Korean maybe he does but you know and it's weird it's like the second
0:59:21reply to him was from a friend of the show frequent guest Dan Fromer who's just
0:59:26like holy shit glad you're okay but it's it's a you know he took the picture like
0:59:30I don't know looks like maybe 50 feet after he got out of the airplane mm-hmm
0:59:35but he's fine but here's the thing then you follow the rest of his tweets then
0:59:39and you see that he didn't leave SFO for like another seven hours and that's now
0:59:46this is the part I wanted to bring up I feel like if I'm on a plane and it
0:59:51crashes and I'm lucky enough that I'm okay. Well, I just want to go. I don't want to stay
0:59:59for six or seven hours. Let me get – if I walked off, let me just go. I want to go
1:00:03have dinner. Right?
1:00:05JE; Drink.
1:00:06AO; Right.
1:00:07JE; Definitely want to have a drink.
1:00:08AO; Yeah.
1:00:09JE; Well, I assume they want to interview him. And you probably – like any accident,
1:00:15you want to make sure – I mean, maybe have somebody check you out. Although, maybe you
1:00:18need to go to her doctor.
1:00:19I think I can do it like a sell. I feel all right. Is that absurd? I'm not saying I expect
1:00:26to immediately go. Clearly, I'm not going to be able to pick up your bag. I feel like
1:00:33an hour at the most. I feel like take my name down. Sure. But you already have the flight
1:00:40list. Mark me down as being okay and let me go.
1:00:47Hmm. I don't know. It seems like there would be paperwork.
1:00:52I guess, but it seems like six or seven hours of paperwork is asking a lot.
1:00:57Well, it's an airport. Everything takes longer than an airport.
1:01:02I guess I would be okay with...
1:01:04Yeah, because you'd probably have to fill out some sort of like...
1:01:07God, I can't even imagine.
1:01:11Because all their luggage was probably...
1:01:13Didn't it burn after that, didn't it?
1:01:16Yeah.
1:01:17I mean, like the...
1:01:18Well, and the luggage goes on the bottom.
1:01:20Right.
1:01:20So I would presume that that just got destroyed by the friction,
1:01:23and that that's, you know, as the plant slid,
1:01:26because it didn't go on the wheels, it just slid.
1:01:28I would guess that the luggage that was underneath was pretty much toast.
1:01:32Or you're probably just not going to want it back anyway.
1:01:34But maybe the overhead bags, the stuff you put over your seat, might have been alright.
1:01:37Yeah, that's true.
1:01:38Right? And I guess that's the other thing, too.
1:01:39No, but it didn't have top. Anyway, it doesn't.
1:01:41That's the other thing too, though. I would want it, you know, "Hey, once you've got
1:01:45the fire out, can I get in there and get my overhead bag?" Is that asking too much?
1:01:51I left my magazine.
1:01:52You know, you're the ones who crashed the fucking airplane. How about you let me get
1:01:55my bag and let me get on with my trip?
1:02:00But you've probably thought of this, right? Have you ever thought about this? I mean,
1:02:02I think about it every time I fly into SFO. It's just, you know, if you fly over the
1:02:06water and then you see a bunch of rocks and then there's the and there's the
1:02:10runway right yeah and everyone you know every time I fly in there I think wow
1:02:16it's kind of amazing that they pull this off all the time I mean I you know you'd
1:02:23think like every once in a while someone would just come a little too short yeah
1:02:28Scully and land right in the water yeah I guess so I don't know that does seem
1:02:34you know again I'm not making light of it seems it seems like it was pilot error
1:02:38just you know it doesn't seem like yeah that's what it's that's what that's what
1:02:41it does seem like I guess it's the sort of thing they weren't going they weren't
1:02:45going fast enough right they were supposed to be going like 130 knots
1:02:48they're not like a hundred and it made me here it's at SeaTec there's there's a
1:02:54lot more land in front of the it's still it's like on a raised sort of plateau
1:03:00So you fly over a bunch of other, you know, you fly, I think there's a there's a road
1:03:05and and then it rate and then it climbs up.
1:03:09But there's still before you see the actual runway, I think there's a lot more dirt.
1:03:14It's like if you were a little if you were a little short, you probably just get on to
1:03:18the Philly seems to have really long runways because I don't really even recall seeing
1:03:23the beginning or end of a runway.
1:03:24It seems like we're, you know, already landing in the middle of it and already, you know,
1:03:28taking off always in the middle of it.
1:03:30I know I'm I don't maybe I'm wrong, but I think we have very long runways
1:03:34The one Airport I've been to that I am NOT I've had you on we talked about your you're uncomfortable
1:03:41Yeah, like anxiety. I'm not I'm not a nervous flyer. I've said that before
1:03:46But the one Airport I've been to that I have to say made me a little nervous is
1:03:51Wellington in New Zealand. Oh, yeah
1:03:57unbelievably short runway. The runway is about 30 feet long for landing commercial airliners.
1:04:05And you don't know that when you're landing. The first time you go, and I don't stare out
1:04:10the window while we're landing. I don't know. I usually don't have a window seat anyway.
1:04:14But we took a hike when we were there at Webstock and went to the mountain that overlooks it.
1:04:21They can look right down over the airport and it's like shockingly short runway.
1:04:27That made me a little nervous about the taking off the next time.
1:04:32Really seems like you got it like back up like to the last inch and then really gun
1:04:35it and then you don't take off – like the plane doesn't take off until it gets to
1:04:39the end of the runway.
1:04:41Seems like a – you get like one shot and one shot only.
1:04:44Tim Cynova My brother landed on an aircraft carrier one
1:04:46time.
1:04:47Justin Perdue That's crazy.
1:04:48That's nuts when you think about it.
1:04:50He's a he does military he's like a military expert. He's not in the military but he teaches
1:04:56at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey and occasionally in the past has gone on to these
1:05:03ships to to do talks to the officers and and it's the only way to get on so so yeah yeah so he they
1:05:10landed on a so that's the only way that it's a real jerk I mean you know just like stopping
1:05:16because you basically just get yanked to a stop. The only way it works is with those like bungee
1:05:21cords, right? Yeah, you get a hook with a tail hook and a big... you mean launching or landing?
1:05:28Yeah, there's a tail hook both to land and then there's like a something I think there's
1:05:34something like a catapult that launches like a slingshot. Yeah, yeah, get you up to speed. But
1:05:39just to get the plane to stop, it's almost like flying into a net. Right.
1:05:46All right, here's the other part about this that I this would make me very, very nervous, I have to
1:05:50say and even as a generally non nervous flyer is the fact and I you think about it, it makes
1:05:55intuitive sense because they investigate the hell out of these things to find you know, they're
1:05:58going to investigate every single detail of the plane is that that the plane I don't know if it
1:06:03is as we speak, but as of like yesterday or the day before was still there on the runway at SFO,
1:06:10like the burned out hulk of the crashed plane because the, you know, the FAA investigators
1:06:17were still going over it. It's like a crime scene almost. Like you can't move it.
1:06:20And so, like, you know, there's all sorts of tweets from people who are like freaked
1:06:27out because they're like, their plane is taxiing around to take off and it's going around a
1:06:32crashed airplane. Like, and I have to admit that that would, that's really freaky.
1:06:36That's a disturbing, yeah. I flew out of Tokyo one time and we got held up for just
1:06:43a few minutes and they said, the pilot came on and said, "We're gonna be hanging out
1:06:48here for just a minute while they clear some debris off the runway." And I'm like, "What?"
1:06:54And then I look out the window and I see these Japanese guys in jumpsuits with these hard
1:06:58hats on, dragging a big piece of sheet metal off the runway.
1:07:02Holy shit.
1:07:03And apparently on takeoff, the plane in front of us had just like dropped a, you know, a
1:07:08piece just fell off and they, and they turned around and came back.
1:07:12Right.
1:07:12Um, and then we, yeah, so that was the first thing I saw before, you know, the 11 hour
1:07:16flight back to Seattle.
1:07:19So, uh, my wife, uh, uh, Amy is like you as a nervous flyer, very nervous.
1:07:28Yeah.
1:07:29So she, and she was, when this plane crash happened, she was very keenly following the
1:07:33breaking news. But I think also like you, she was following the breaking news but not
1:07:39looking at the pictures.
1:07:41JE; Pictures.
1:07:42AG; Right. Couldn't look at the pictures, wouldn't watch the video, but keenly observed.
1:07:49It makes her... This worsened her flight anxiety, now that there's been a crash. And the fact
1:07:56that I said, "Well, isn't that great though? Because this is like the first... It's been
1:08:00like four and a half years since there it's like the longest stretch in the
1:08:03history of the United States without a commercial air airline yeah which really
1:08:08is amazing right and only two people died like I it's like we're in like the
1:08:13the you know it's more safe than ever before almost dramatically so doesn't
1:08:20that reassure you and she was like no it was a lot more reassuring when it was
1:08:24four and a half years when nothing had happened exactly yeah yeah yeah I mean
1:08:29I mean, for me, it's kind of – it's a six of one half times the other two because
1:08:32it's – in a way, because my fear is just like I said, it's just like the whole thing
1:08:39goes.
1:08:40So it's kind of like, well, sometimes you have an accident and that doesn't happen.
1:08:44But at the same time, I don't really like thinking about it.
1:08:48Right.
1:08:49Do you have a thing – is it for you like almost like a Wile E. Coyote type thing, like
1:08:52where maybe – like the only reason that these planes can fly is that we think they
1:08:59can fly. And eventually the laws of physics are going to catch up. And it's like in the middle of
1:09:02a flight, the laws of physics are going to tap the universe's shoulder and say, "Hey, a gigantic
1:09:08bus." Hey, look down. Yeah, exactly. Which is always when the cartoon character falls out of
1:09:14the sky is when they look down and notice that they're hovering. A giant 100-ton tube of aluminum
1:09:19can't fly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, none of it makes any sense. And the funny thing is my fear is
1:09:28mid-flight. My fear is always turbulence, which is really usually not the problem. It's always
1:09:35on takeoff and landing. And particularly landing. Actually, years ago, I took a flying lesson just
1:09:40to try and help myself. And the guy, we've just flew around in a little plane for a while,
1:09:46and he let me fly. And flying is flying through the air. You can fly through the air because
1:09:53because there's nothing up there.
1:09:56I mean, you're just flying through the air.
1:09:58You just got to keep it level, and you fly.
1:10:00It's landing.
1:10:01That's the hard part.
1:10:01And even by taking off, because you're just going up,
1:10:06it's easier to go up than to bring it down without smashing
1:10:09it into the ground.
1:10:10Flying helicopters is apparently difficult.
1:10:12Oh, that's hard.
1:10:13Yeah.
1:10:13But flying an airplane is apparently--
1:10:15And jet packs.
1:10:16Jet packs are really hard, too.
1:10:20did you see that they had these guys had won a challenge to create a human
1:10:27powered helicopter? You know I saw a tweet about it but didn't follow it.
1:10:33What was it? It's like so it's like a bicycle type thing? Yeah I think it's you
1:10:37know I didn't look at it closely but I thought that was pretty cool. Sort of
1:10:42kind of thing that you know was it Leonardo da Vinci first dreamed of a
1:10:48thousand years ago or however long well no it's not that long ago but I'm trying
1:10:53to find it now yeah here it is it's seen that human-powered helicopter finally
1:10:57takes Sikorsky Prize yeah it seems like am I imagine this from the photo that it
1:11:07is in the normal an enormous device it's big it's it's like the wings are like
1:11:15So the wings are like the size of like a commercial airliner
1:11:18Yeah, it seems yes, that's a you get that's how you get get enough lift
1:11:22It's gonna be a bitch to park these things it is
1:11:25Anyway that was my segue a segue off an uncomfortable topic for me
1:11:37Anything else anything other so we cover recover as far as painful painful topics for me. We've covered baseball
1:11:45all, and flying.
1:11:51So I don't – yeah.
1:11:55I think that's it.
1:11:56I don't think I have any more really uncomfortable topics if you wanted – if that's what we
1:12:02were trying to touch on this week.
1:12:03DAVE SMITH No, I think that will cover it all.
1:12:05And dog poop.
1:12:06Don't forget the dog poop.
1:12:07My crippling fear of dog poop.
1:12:09[LAUGHTER]