The Talk Show

45: I Missed OK


00:00:00   You're not technically a back-to-back guest, but you're a back-to-back

00:00:03   appear on the show. The last show was the live show and you made a surprise

00:00:08   appearance, brought the house down.

00:00:09   Wasn't that fun? It felt really good.

00:00:13   It was a blast. I really had no idea. People were like, "Wow, I can't believe it.

00:00:17   You got all three 'You Look Nice' ticket day guys on stage." And I had no idea.

00:00:21   Literally until like 10 minutes before the show was supposed to start. All I did,

00:00:26   I knew Simpson was going to be there.

00:00:29   And he was just like – well, actually, he didn't even ask.

00:00:32   He was just like, "I'm going to have some of the guys come out."

00:00:36   Oh, and by the way, Adam's plane doesn't land until like a minute ago.

00:00:40   Yeah, it got delayed.

00:00:42   He texted me a few days before that and said, "Hey, are you going to be at Dub-Dub?"

00:00:46   I said, "No."

00:00:47   He said, "I'm doing a thing for the talk show.

00:00:50   I wrote something for you and Merlin to perform with me."

00:00:55   I said yes.

00:00:56   Dave Asprey You're playing.

00:00:58   I guess it was delayed.

00:00:59   It wasn't like you planned it that way, but apparently we were going—curtains were

00:01:02   supposed to go up around 6.30 and you were like wheels down at SFO at like five after

00:01:07   six.

00:01:08   Jon Moffitt Yeah, and I was on camera that morning for

00:01:12   one of my shoots that I wasn't directing, somebody else was, but I was on camera up

00:01:17   until like two o'clock.

00:01:18   I had a hard cutoff and then I literally just had to pick up from where I was.

00:01:24   The crew was all rushing and like a complete twat, I said, "I'm sorry, I have to go

00:01:29   be on a podcast."

00:01:30   Tom Bilyeu (

00:01:35   Now, that could be… it probably took you longer to get to LAX than it took LAX, the

00:01:40   flight to get to San Francisco.

00:01:42   Ben

00:01:54   For me too. I don't know. The show seemed to be a smashing success.

00:01:59   Yeah, it went off really well. Amy brought up one thing, and I think she's exactly

00:02:04   right, and everybody is sort of in agreement afterwards, is that we didn't really mic

00:02:07   the audience. We all just did handheld mics on stage, and everybody sounds great. But

00:02:14   because we didn't mic the audience, if you don't know any worse, you might think Scott

00:02:20   bombed doing his bit.

00:02:21   Oh, no. Really?

00:02:22   Because he and he did it was the complete opposite. I mean, I think you agree

00:02:27   I mean, yeah, he absolutely killed but because he killed he actually had to wait sometimes

00:02:31   for the for the audience laughter to die down to continue with the jokes

00:02:38   But on the on the audio recording it comes across as him maybe sort of like rethinking it's a hack

00:02:45   Oh my god, it's the uh

00:02:47   It's the Howard Dean effect

00:02:49   It's it's all about the quality of the microphone that can make or break somebody's career. All right

00:02:54   But anyway for anybody who is confused or perhaps concerned that that Scott Simpson's

00:03:01   Act on the show last week perhaps did not go over well did the complete opposite is the case it was I?

00:03:08   Would and I mean this all with no hyperbole. It was riotous laughter

00:03:13   Yeah, it was my first time having gotten to see him do that which he's been doing for probably

00:03:19   It seems like a year now and you've seen him before

00:03:21   But it was my first time and so I only had my imagination to go by

00:03:25   because I know how funny the man is and he just absolutely was he was Scott Simpson on stage except just

00:03:33   More so and it was perfect. I find it fascinating because it's you know, I would never do it

00:03:42   I mean, I'm not funny enough and I don't have the demeanor, but it's within my imagination to think about screwing around doing it

00:03:49   Right, and I do talk I do conferences and stuff and I try to you know, mix at least a joke or two in there. Yeah

00:03:55   but it's

00:03:57   Fascinating to watch your friend do it, you know and and even having just seen him a few months ago

00:04:03   He's gotten better because that's the thing is like he acts like he's you know, he just goofs around

00:04:07   But he's working his ass off on this. I mean he's doing like

00:04:11   eight nights a week

00:04:12   Yeah

00:04:14   But he's good, but it's different too because when I saw him a few months ago, it was at like, you know open night

00:04:20   I don't know if you call it open mic

00:04:22   But you know a bunch of comedians at a bar in San Francisco and it's like the toughest

00:04:27   it's the toughest room I could ever imagine because it's

00:04:30   Half the room is other comedians who are all just obsessing over their own stuff because they've either just gone on

00:04:38   on and they're thinking about what worked and what didn't work or they're about to go on and they're

00:04:42   just sort of in that backstage mindset. So they're not paying attention to you.

00:04:49   And then the other half are just drunk people at a bar.

00:04:52   Pete: Yeah. And it's the expectation and the entitlement of the audience that makes the biggest

00:04:59   difference. If it's what you do or what I've occasionally done, which is essentially just

00:05:04   going up in, I don't know, a talk is like a monologue and there's not the expectation

00:05:09   of laughter.

00:05:11   So the laughter is almost sometimes out of awkward politeness where it's the kind of

00:05:16   joke, non-joke that's sort of like almost like an awkward self-reference or like, you

00:05:23   know, Tom in accounting, he knows what I'm talking about.

00:05:25   And then you've got that, you get a chuckle from that, from the audience.

00:05:30   But wow, it's just the pressure must be excruciating.

00:05:36   I would completely agree.

00:05:38   I was actually nervous.

00:05:39   I didn't have to do anything.

00:05:40   I just sat there with a drink in my hand, but I got these incredibly sweaty palms like

00:05:45   I was hanging by my fingertips four stories up in the air, thinking about my friend going

00:05:52   in front of this audience.

00:05:53   Because the other thing, too, when you and I speak in public at conferences, we go to

00:05:59   Webstock or something like that or back in the day, South by Southwest or when I do something

00:06:06   like a live episode of the talk show.

00:06:08   The audience knows us already.

00:06:10   They've come.

00:06:11   The people who come to Webstock are there to see people like me and you speak and they

00:06:17   already know us and they want to like what we're about to say.

00:06:21   Whereas when you're just at the open mic at a bar, some of the people who are there didn't

00:06:26   even know it was open mic night.

00:06:27   Yeah, they don't care. They want to be entertained. And there's almost, there's no benefit

00:06:35   of the doubt. It's all, it's like, I hate you until you please me.

00:06:41   Dave: Yeah. So when you see people, and you know, it's not like it's a surprise to

00:06:45   me that, hey, stand-up comedy is hard. You know, there have been some good movies, like

00:06:50   Seinfeld had that good movie a couple years ago. I forget the title was. But you know,

00:06:56   It's about how hard it is and how much writing is involved because it's twofold.

00:07:00   It's a lot of writing during the day and then it's the work at night of getting it down.

00:07:06   Anyway, I think it really shows.

00:07:09   Yeah.

00:07:10   Well, I think that he'll be doing a lot more of it in bigger contexts.

00:07:16   How cool is it that he already had a built-in audience going in?

00:07:21   A smallish audience, but at least one that was interested in pursuing his career.

00:07:26   It's been great.

00:07:28   Dave Asprey I think it's very cool.

00:07:29   Yeah, totally cool.

00:07:30   Jon Moffitt Go, Scott.

00:07:31   Dave Asprey Absolutely.

00:07:32   Yeah, he's going to be one of those.

00:07:33   He's going to be like the guy.

00:07:34   Well, you're the other one.

00:07:36   I feel like I'll be the old guy who gets to say, "I knew that guy back when he would

00:07:40   talk to people like me."

00:07:41   Jon Moffitt Nah, nah.

00:07:42   I'll stop.

00:07:43   Dave Asprey Well, not you.

00:07:44   Scott, though.

00:07:45   Scott will stop talking to me.

00:07:46   Jon Moffitt You and me will be out in the audience claiming

00:07:50   we knew Scott. So the weird thing about doing the show, the live debut, well maybe not the

00:08:00   weird thing, but you know, I even mentioned it on stage last week during the show that because,

00:08:04   you know, time was of the essence, we had a bunch of guests and a lot of fun to have,

00:08:07   wasn't going to spend a ton of time on the tech details or nerding out on the design stuff,

00:08:13   because we could always do that later. Well now is later. And in hindsight, I really do think like,

00:08:19   What is it?

00:08:20   We're recording this on Thursday, the 20th, so we're 11 days after the keynote.

00:08:26   Boy, what really sticks out to me just is the design of iOS 7.

00:08:31   I mean, that's what I thought right after the keynote, but the more time goes on, that

00:08:37   really, to me, it just seems more surprising.

00:08:41   I don't know if it's shocking, but surprising.

00:08:43   Sure, definitely.

00:08:44   Well, it's the thing that people can scrutinize at this point.

00:08:49   We actually have it.

00:08:50   How smart do you think that was to put it in developers' hands at this point, being

00:08:56   an unbaked product?

00:08:58   I think that they had to because it's so significant and that so much of the success

00:09:03   is wrapped up around the App Store.

00:09:08   Need is maybe a difficult word.

00:09:09   I mean Apple is so elevated that they may not need anything, but they certainly want

00:09:16   at least some subset of apps ready to go on day one with this thing.

00:09:20   And how far away is day one?

00:09:24   Well, let's think about that.

00:09:25   I think that in the past, it's always launched with new hardware.

00:09:31   So they said fall, which means North American or Northern Hemisphere fall.

00:09:38   Last year's schedule was like a late September new iPhone and iPod touch and then a mid-October

00:09:46   new iPads.

00:09:49   I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that exact schedule reproduced.

00:09:53   I mean, in theory, if they have it all ready to go, they could just do one big event and

00:09:58   do new iPhones and iPads.

00:10:02   But we're looking at something like September, October because that's when the new hardware

00:10:05   is coming. The new hardware, I think, is going to need iOS 7 because every single previous

00:10:11   year, the new hardware has to run the new OS.

00:10:13   Eric Bischoff So there's been a lot of talk about this

00:10:17   being an opportunity. There's Marco's post about burning everything down so you can grow

00:10:25   fresh and then there's been a lot of talk about what you just mentioned, which is that

00:10:31   developers, they need refreshed apps in the App Store from day one of the new of the of

00:10:37   the of the launch. So what do you think is involved in that for most developers? Like,

00:10:43   is it just a redesign of look and feel? Or is it? How much reengineering do you think

00:10:50   is involved?

00:10:51   Jared Ranere: I really don't know yet. And that's really, I've been thinking about

00:10:55   it nonstop. And I probably would have been thinking about it just as much even without

00:10:59   Vesper, but now I've got a vested interest in it with my own app that just came out.

00:11:04   And I feel like we're in better shape than most because I feel like we kind of correctly

00:11:08   --

00:11:09   You anticipated it a little bit.

00:11:10   Right. Correctly gauged which way the wind was blowing. But it still is a lot of questions.

00:11:16   You know, here's one -- here's a big one that I'm looking at. Every single app from Apple

00:11:23   in iOS 7 that has a navigation bar at the top, in other words, a thing that, you know,

00:11:29   like a title and a back button at the top left and another type of button on the top

00:11:34   right. It's white. It's a white navigation bar that's semi-translucent and then they

00:11:41   distinguish between them. They brand the apps a little bit just by the color of the text

00:11:47   in the nav bar. So the calendar app is red. The mail app is blue. Notes app is yellow.

00:11:55   I forget what else the other ones are, but you get, you see what I mean? They're all

00:11:59   white though. So what I'm wondering is when iOS 7 ships and we kind of get a collective

00:12:09   sense of what it means to have a native for iOS 7 user interface, is that, is everybody

00:12:16   going to have to have a white nav bar or are we still going to be allowed to do what, what's,

00:12:20   what's you know, and this isn't even about like what's

00:12:22   officially prescribed in the human interface guidelines, but

00:12:26   just sort of what we collectively agree is iOS style

00:12:29   design, but can we use branded colors in that navigation bar

00:12:34   the way Yelp is red and Vesper as that slate blue? Are we going

00:12:40   to be able to do that? Or is that going to feel weird and out

00:12:43   of place and old timey?

00:12:45   Yeah, I don't think it's the whiteness the white background

00:12:49   necessarily as much as it is the text styling and the borderless labels and the borderless

00:12:57   buttons.

00:12:59   I think that's going to be the universal, the only universally accepted, unless Apple

00:13:05   somehow updates that for some reason, which they still might.

00:13:11   It's getting a lot of crap from designers, which I guess we'll probably talk some more

00:13:17   about. But just as an aside, before we got on, I put it on my everyday phone on day one,

00:13:26   which was a terrible idea, and people warned against it. I did. And then within a half a day,

00:13:33   while I was still up in San Francisco, my phone battery was dying within three hours.

00:13:39   And I was without a cable, and it was nuts. So I downgraded to 614 again as soon as I got home.

00:13:46   and then just before the show, you know, I had already kind of formed my

00:13:51   collective opinion about it by the time I downgraded, but I haven't looked

00:13:56   at it since. And then about 45 minutes ago I installed on a backup phone.

00:14:03   So I'm looking at it again and I set it up as a new phone and it gets, you know,

00:14:07   goes through the welcome, you know, or it goes through the, you know, select your

00:14:10   language, select your Wi-Fi network, and then it says welcome to

00:14:14   iPhone on a splash screen and there's an OK button that's not a button. It just says OK.

00:14:19   And I go to tap OK and I missed OK. I missed. It felt like when you go to high five somebody

00:14:28   and you miss the high five.

00:14:30   Dave: Yeah, it's foreign, I definitely think. And I think that the borderless buttons are

00:14:37   maybe the most drastic change. And I do find it surprising. Because I even wrote beforehand,

00:14:43   I sort of, and I really didn't know,

00:14:46   I did not know what this was gonna look like,

00:14:47   but I did write something along the lines of,

00:14:50   you know, the gist of it, that you don't need

00:14:53   all the stuff that's bubbly and really over the top,

00:14:56   making a button super buttony,

00:14:59   that people can get what a,

00:15:00   people understand what a touchscreen button is now,

00:15:02   so you don't need to make it look super buttony.

00:15:05   But they really took that with buttons

00:15:07   to the ultimate extreme and completely removed

00:15:10   any and all borders from the buttons.

00:15:12   They're really just text.

00:15:16   Which means that there's an implied field of, what do they call it, field of interest

00:15:21   or something?

00:15:22   What is the tappable space around?

00:15:25   I don't know.

00:15:27   The target area?

00:15:28   The target area.

00:15:29   There's an implied target area that they sort of assume that in 2013 people know vaguely

00:15:36   where it is.

00:15:37   But that's an assumption that I don't think.

00:15:40   I think it's kind of too early to call really.

00:15:43   I just missed it.

00:15:44   Yeah.

00:15:45   I think the thing that sort of feels off to me about no border buttons is that I always

00:15:49   associate that with web pages.

00:15:51   You know, that if the web had never existed, I might be more amenable to this than I am.

00:15:57   But to me, when I see something that you can tap and all it is is text with no border around

00:16:03   it, I just think it's like a link in a web page.

00:16:05   Right.

00:16:06   And why is that?

00:16:07   Tensor still offers so much more precision in targeting than a finger does.

00:16:14   Right.

00:16:15   And they do.

00:16:16   It doesn't seem like…it seems like they have generous tap areas, but I don't think

00:16:21   you missed because the tap area is too small.

00:16:23   Although, I don't know, maybe in that particular case in that setup screen you did because

00:16:27   maybe they haven't seen…maybe that has…that's probably the sort of thing that they've

00:16:31   tested the least because they don't…how many times do they go through the initial

00:16:34   set up screen for a developer beta, probably way less than they do other things.

00:16:41   You know those in some urinals they have like a little printed fly above the drain?

00:16:49   Yes.

00:16:50   You've seen that?

00:16:51   Yeah.

00:16:52   How clever of an invention is that?

00:16:55   It just seems like the guy who came up with that idea or the man or lady who came up with

00:17:01   that idea sorry woman who came up with that idea must pat themselves on the

00:17:04   back every single day you know I was gonna say it had to be a man but maybe

00:17:08   it was a woman because you know all it has they're the ones who constantly

00:17:12   complain about men and spill it you know yeah right it could just be a woman who

00:17:16   was managing a you know some sort of facility where they were spending in an

00:17:20   ornament amount of time cleaning up sloppy sloppy pissers right so why a

00:17:26   a fly and not like just a tiny bullseye or the word okay I wonder I don't know I

00:17:33   don't like like depending on what city you're in just like some opposing sports

00:17:37   teams yeah Obama I mean yeah we're like a Red Sox logo in a New York urinal or

00:17:45   the Yankees logo in a Boston you're sure actually that probably if you get a lot

00:17:49   of it would probably get some spot-on targeting I don't know why I fly I can

00:17:54   Maybe because at a glance you might think it really is a fly.

00:17:59   I wonder how much they tested it.

00:18:01   Do people, if it really were a fly, is that actually a cool thing to do, to urinate on

00:18:05   a fly?

00:18:06   It seems fun.

00:18:08   I'm not a Buddhist or anything, but I don't take any extra delight in killing insects.

00:18:16   If it's crawling on the walls of my house, I got to get rid of it.

00:18:22   But I guess I would if I saw a real fly in a urinal.

00:18:25   I would try to pee on it.

00:18:28   So I guess the question…

00:18:31   So I mean it's just the idea that we need some…

00:18:33   I feel like we need some sort of an object.

00:18:38   Really for me what it's all about and the underlying theme of the new, of the redesign

00:18:44   of the OS for me right now is that none of the buttons are objects.

00:18:50   I feel like I need objects in my life to touch.

00:18:53   You know?

00:18:54   Dave Asprey They're not as satisfying to touch.

00:18:57   You know, I just had another idea on that.

00:18:59   What if you hooked it up with an actual little hole and it would be like one of those things

00:19:04   at the carnival where you shoot the squirt gun in and it fills up a balloon?

00:19:08   [Laughter]

00:19:09   Mike Lee And then you get to keep the balloon.

00:19:12   Dave Asprey Yeah.

00:19:13   And then if you successfully put enough urine into the hole accurately, then you win something.

00:19:19   Yeah, but you could win like an inflated balloon.

00:19:24   Just an idea.

00:19:24   That's a free idea that anybody out there, you guys

00:19:26   can take it and run with it.

00:19:28   Free ideas.

00:19:29   And that's one thing.

00:19:34   It's neat having Vesper out, because I can now

00:19:36   say this is my taste in user interface design.

00:19:39   And one thing we do in Vesper that's

00:19:41   completely opposite of the iOS 7 direction

00:19:44   is that for all of our buttons, there's a really--

00:19:48   I don't know if you want to say drastic, but a very noticeable tap down state for when

00:19:52   you tap on something tappable but haven't released yet.

00:19:58   We sort of go the old style Mac route like from the classic Mac era and letterpress does

00:20:04   the same thing where it actually inverses the colors.

00:20:08   So if it's a white button and you tap it, then it turns dark blue.

00:20:13   If it's a dark blue button and you tap it, it turns white and the text reverses.

00:20:17   I like that.

00:20:18   I like that.

00:20:19   Yeah, it's lovely how this works, how you tap a cell.

00:20:23   For a moment, it turns light gray.

00:20:27   The background turns light gray and then the whole cell lifts off the page to indicate

00:20:32   that it's draggable with shadow.

00:20:35   Yeah, and I find that to be in other apps.

00:20:39   Just in iOS 7 or this modern cutting edge design aside, when I sometimes see an app

00:20:45   and it has like, let's just say a dark blue nav bar, and there's a button, like a done

00:20:51   button in the top right corner.

00:20:53   When I tap it, if it just gets a little bit darker, that bothers me a little bit because

00:20:58   I feel like maybe I missed it.

00:21:00   I like to know that on my tap down, I've hit the target I intended to hit by looking at

00:21:05   pixels that spill out from underneath my finger and I can tell I've got it.

00:21:10   Whereas iOS 7 is the complete opposite design where most things, if you tap them, it's

00:21:14   almost impossible to see visually on the screen that you did because all they do is really

00:21:18   just take the text and make it lighter.

00:21:21   The background doesn't change at all.

00:21:24   I went to the Notes app and I tapped "new."

00:21:30   You can't tell it's doing anything because your thumb is covering it still.

00:21:34   That's the only app with texture in the background still.

00:21:38   That's a weird choice.

00:21:40   That seems almost out of place.

00:21:43   The letterpress texture, which I love and I'm super happy of the hang on to any of

00:21:48   that.

00:21:50   Do you look at the contacts app? You have your iOS 7 device in front of you?

00:21:56   I do. Open up the contacts app and then look at

00:22:01   the list view of people and then look behind it. It's like the list itself is translucent.

00:22:08   How long does it take you? Then do the parallax trick where you wiggle the phone around. I

00:22:13   could tell there was a picture there, but it took me a surprisingly long amount of time

00:22:17   to figure out where that picture was coming from.

00:22:20   You know, so you're saying that the wallpaper is supposed to appear behind it?

00:22:27   It's not the wallpaper.

00:22:29   It's you.

00:22:31   At least for me, when I open the Contacts app, it's using the front-facing camera

00:22:34   and showing me, but translucent and very blurred behind the list of all the contacts.

00:22:40   Interesting.

00:22:41   I'm not seeing that.

00:22:42   Huh.

00:22:43   Maybe.

00:22:44   I don't know how I got it.

00:22:46   I'm in the contacts panel. No, I take if I go to favorites. I don't have any favorites. It's

00:22:50   Just me. That's pretty cool. I mean, what do you think of that? What is that? What is that's what?

00:22:57   What is that afford us? I think it I think the idea is that it's ready for you to FaceTime one of them

00:23:03   Okay, that's interesting

00:23:06   That's interesting. It's sort of always wants you to be aware, but that's it but it's only in the contacts app obviously, right?

00:23:12   That's all I see, right?

00:23:14   There's an operating metaphor there that's pretty interesting, but I can't find any.

00:23:19   I can't think of there being any use for it.

00:23:24   Because I was raised in an era of processor-hungry computers, it causes anxiety in me that it's

00:23:34   eating up processor cycles at the expense of something else.

00:23:38   Dave: Yeah, me too, a little bit.

00:23:41   instincts run the other way to be like value efficiency above all else.

00:23:46   But I think this is clearly being built, I mean literally, for like the next 10 years.

00:23:52   Jay Famiglietti Oh, absolutely.

00:23:55   That's the interesting thing about development of this design is that it's not just for iOS.

00:24:02   That much has to be clear.

00:24:03   We have to keep that much in mind is that they're establishing a language that's going

00:24:07   to be applicable across all their devices, even the ones that we don't, especially the

00:24:11   ones we don't know about yet.

00:24:13   Yeah, I definitely think that that's a big part of it.

00:24:16   And in fact, it was like, I forget who I was talking to at WWDC, but I was talking to somebody

00:24:27   and it's like, I don't know, second, third hand information, but that somebody, that's

00:24:31   how you get all your information there.

00:24:33   But somebody was talking to somebody and somebody at Apple said that this was largely informed

00:24:39   by devices that are coming down the pipe. It's not that it's not supposed to look good

00:24:43   on everybody's iPhones and iPads that already exist, that they're going to upgrade when

00:24:48   it comes out, but that it's hand in hand with new stuff that's coming out.

00:24:53   Right. Yeah, that makes sense. It would make sense to me that it's

00:24:57   a visual language that doesn't have anything to do with touch.

00:25:05   Because just personal taste-wise, like I said, I want

00:25:11   objects, if I'm supposed to be interacting with data that

00:25:14   I'm supposed to touch, I want those objects to

00:25:16   have heft and weight.

00:25:19   And so it makes sense to me that these new style of

00:25:22   waitlist buttons are just for things that we're supposed to

00:25:24   interact with through other means, whether it's voice.

00:25:29   I heard somebody use an argument that this was meant

00:25:33   for because Siri is going to get stronger and stronger and more integral integral to

00:25:40   the OS.

00:25:41   I don't know about that.

00:25:43   I don't know about it either.

00:25:45   I wanted to follow up with more.

00:25:47   Yeah, I think Siri remains sort of its own universe and I think sort of rightly so, like

00:25:54   an entirely secondary interface to the phone.

00:25:57   Right.

00:25:58   I do like…

00:25:59   Sorry, go ahead.

00:26:00   Well, you tell me first.

00:26:02   What do you think?

00:26:03   No, I was just going to say it's—did I say "I do like" or did you say that?

00:26:11   That Siri is sort of a secondary interface?

00:26:13   Yeah.

00:26:14   I said that I like that it is.

00:26:15   Yeah.

00:26:16   And I don't think that what we see in the touch interface has anything to do with Siri.

00:26:20   Right.

00:26:21   Yeah, that would make sense.

00:26:22   But I do like that they're starting to hint at integrating Siri into deeper controls than

00:26:30   just, you know, where's the nearest gas station?

00:26:32   Yeah.

00:26:33   Oh, I totally agree with that.

00:26:35   That I think that there's, you know, long term, a serious plan there to keep Siri…

00:26:41   I mean, I think Siri as we know it is baby steps compared to what we're going to expect

00:26:49   of a device in five years in terms of context awareness, knowing where you are and what

00:26:55   you're doing when you're there.

00:26:58   Yeah.

00:26:59   I did a video for Nuance a few months ago and it was like a vision video that's supposed

00:27:05   to sort of imagine how we're going to be able to interact with our devices through

00:27:10   voice.

00:27:12   I find myself very frustrated because when I'm holding my baby and don't have my

00:27:18   either hand free and my iPhone is literally 18 inches from my face that I can't just

00:27:25   tell it to do something.

00:27:29   Yeah, it seems frustrating, limiting.

00:27:36   My thoughts are a little bit all over the map here.

00:27:39   I don't know.

00:27:40   But the other thing, I'm just looking at it right now.

00:27:42   What do you think of the new multitasking interface?

00:27:45   I think it's cool.

00:27:46   It's not original.

00:27:47   I mean, you can argue about who did it first.

00:27:49   I think that the pre guys get the credit for this first, the WebOS Palm Pre.

00:27:55   Yeah, yeah, definitely.

00:27:57   pretty much exactly their app switcher isn't it I think so the one thing Apple

00:28:02   added which I think is actually pretty cool is the the icons underneath which

00:28:08   scroll with a different rate there's like a sort of a parallax there so you

00:28:13   can go if you want to go by icon it's a lot faster and if you want to go by

00:28:17   screenshot it's slower but they're bigger and I think the reason that this

00:28:22   works so well is that there are a lot of apps that look almost the same as

00:28:27   as thumbnails, just a white list with black Helvetica text.

00:28:30   And a white, you know, now it's, you know, with the nav bars all the same, it's even

00:28:35   harder.

00:28:36   So the icon is there to disambiguate them.

00:28:38   And I think that having the icons underneath in a different scrolling list but which matches

00:28:44   the screenshots in the center is way cooler than just putting an icon badge on the screenshots.

00:28:50   Mad Fientist Agreed.

00:28:52   It's taking me a little bit of time to get used to how the snap, like the physics of

00:28:56   the snapping.

00:28:58   I feel like I tend to overshoot what I'm going for pretty easily.

00:29:02   Like it's almost too glassy.

00:29:03   I see what you mean.

00:29:05   Here's one that's just white.

00:29:09   Yeah.

00:29:10   I guess it's a new … It's my messages app and I guess it's a new … Yeah.

00:29:17   It's just a white rectangle.

00:29:19   I mean, I think having the icons is essential.

00:29:22   Adam: Yeah, I think the Messages app is the most controversial for me.

00:29:27   Justin: Why is that?

00:29:30   Adam; Just the style of the buttons.

00:29:34   The Aquafied buttons in iOS 6 are so iconic that these just seem cheap by comparison.

00:29:43   fact that they hung on to the dialogue bubble but just made it 2D illustrated without any

00:29:50   texture or depth whatsoever. And then the cheap little cockeyed animation to bring your

00:30:00   new message up to the top.

00:30:02   top. I have to think that the animation for the, you know, as you type, you're saying

00:30:07   like when you've typed a message, you hit send and it pops out of the text field and

00:30:14   turns into a bubble. It does, but it also does it like with one side at a time. You

00:30:19   know, it goes off axis a little bit. Yeah. It feels like a train that's off the rails

00:30:26   a little bit. And why would it do that? I'm trying to, you know, you always got to sort

00:30:31   to force yourself to ask why, what's behind the decision that they made to do something

00:30:36   terrible and awful.

00:30:39   Not that I'm, I mean, I was being, you know, I was kidding, not necessarily that this is

00:30:44   terrible and awful, but if there's something that you find is questionable, like, there's

00:30:51   got to be some reason behind it.

00:30:53   But I can't really figure out any reason that one side would go up, cockeyed, and then

00:30:58   settle out and settle out flat.

00:31:00   Yeah, I really I you know again who knows when you know September 20 something might come and this thing ships

00:31:08   And it ships exactly like this and you know I guess I'll be wrong

00:31:11   But I can't help but think that the animation on that right now is just uncomplet not completely untuned

00:31:16   But just untuned and yeah that in the right you know I

00:31:20   Think it was a really hard deadline because they you know at a certain point no matter how late it was that they announced

00:31:26   WWDC they really wanted to get this out at WWDC because if they didn't get it out of WWDC then when were they you know?

00:31:32   It kind of had to happen then and I think it's clear how close they are to being

00:31:37   Not even having made that deadline having a you know, even vaguely usable beta by WWDC because they didn't even have an iPad version

00:31:45   They still don't

00:31:47   And which is impressive it's impressive it is impressive

00:31:54   But I do think though that that meant that they had to you know and anybody who's ever shipped a 1.0 of anything let alone

00:32:00   An entire mobile operating system you you really when you have a hard deadline like that

00:32:04   you've just got to start prioritizing what you're going to spend time on before the

00:32:09   Anything not done by this time isn't gonna make it in and I think you know things like crashing bugs or you know

00:32:16   Actual things that keep you from using the app have to go above

00:32:20   Getting the animation, right?

00:32:22   I'm testing it on a 4S and that's also one of the things that there's a couple of them

00:32:29   and it's mostly animation related that feels slow on the 4S like a bad frame rate and I

00:32:35   have full faith that they'll adjust that by the time it ships.

00:32:41   But on the other hand, they have shipped.

00:32:43   It's not like they've never shipped a version of iOS that ran slow on older hardware.

00:32:49   I mean, they are, you know, I mean, I think they would certainly would like it to be fast

00:32:52   on a 4S, but I don't know.

00:32:55   It's a little concerning to me.

00:32:56   Yeah.

00:32:57   But so I'm on a 4S right now as well, and I just, I mean, some of these animations are

00:33:04   really pretty impressive, actually, framerate-wise.

00:33:07   Some of them definitely are.

00:33:09   Like just because, you know, zooming into an app or going back out to the home screen,

00:33:14   those don't get jittery at all on this 4S.

00:33:16   No.

00:33:17   It's really nice to look at.

00:33:18   It's fluid.

00:33:19   It's nice and it's context aware.

00:33:24   It's not just freezing the frame of what you're looking at and zooming into it.

00:33:31   There's some dynamic stuff going on it feels like.

00:33:33   Justin: Yeah, definitely.

00:33:34   I mean and that's – this isn't breaking any kind of developer NDA.

00:33:38   But I mean they announced it at the thing.

00:33:40   But there is an entirely new framework in iOS 7.

00:33:43   I could be getting it wrong.

00:33:44   But I think it's UI Dynamics.

00:33:46   But the gist of it is UI Dynamics.

00:33:48   It's a physics engine for stuff on screen.

00:33:51   So, yeah.

00:33:52   And it seems to be the apps, the developers that are doing clever hacks to the SDK for

00:34:01   things like saved states, those are going to be the ones that are most kind of screwed

00:34:06   by this new stuff.

00:34:09   Where you'll see launching into an app, some of the—like Tweetbot or something,

00:34:15   you'll see doubling of some of the status bar elements that's not supposed to be there,

00:34:20   because they're obviously doing something clever to refresh their saved state from your

00:34:26   last launch.

00:34:27   Dave Asprey Yeah, there's, you know, I mean, and that's

00:34:31   the nature of a major OS release. And I should say this entire discussion, and I even wrote

00:34:37   about it earlier this week about people, you know, don't panic about iOS 7, it's just

00:34:41   a beta. To me, there's a middle ground. The point is not to say, "Hey, because it's a

00:34:46   beta, it's beyond criticism." We've already blown half an hour here criticizing the thing.

00:34:53   The point, though, is you've got to put it in the context that it's a beta in early June

00:34:59   of something that's probably not going to ship until late September at the latest. I

00:35:03   mean at the earliest. And who knows? Maybe not until October.

00:35:09   So, you know, it's just don't assume that this is what it's going to be when it ships.

00:35:14   But on the other hand, a lot of this, you know, and they have design guidelines that

00:35:17   are out there and they, you know, they're pushing.

00:35:19   I mean, you can go to Apple.com and iOS 7 is what they're showing you on the front

00:35:23   page of Apple.com.

00:35:25   So a lot of this is clearly, you know, is meant to be taken not necessarily as the final

00:35:30   design, but as this is pretty much what we're going to ship.

00:35:33   Right. So are you and Whiskas and Brent sweating it at this point? Are you having long talks

00:35:42   about how you're going to redesign? No, not yet. We have a few little things,

00:35:50   but we have enough stuff to do in the near term for quick updates to address a few things that

00:35:57   that we don't have to worry about it.

00:35:59   I think we all need to have this settle in a little bit so that it doesn't feel so foreign

00:36:08   before we know what we're supposed to do.

00:36:13   Somehow it's like detecting an accent.

00:36:18   It's like when you see an iPhone app pre-iOS 7 and it just doesn't look right.

00:36:25   just like, this isn't right. It's like, it's like a, it's like an app that's speaking

00:36:29   with a foreign accent. So I can't tell what the native iOS 7 dialect sounds like.

00:36:37   I agree. I don't think there is one cohesive one yet, because it's so diverse among all

00:36:43   the apps that they shipped.

00:36:47   You know which app I thought was weird and I haven't seen anybody really complain about

00:36:50   it is the calendar app.

00:36:53   Yeah, I find it really unusable, actually.

00:36:56   I can't help but think that it's just not even close to finished, not even finished

00:37:01   being designed feature-wise, because it doesn't even have a list of events anymore.

00:37:06   It's just literally a calendar.

00:37:08   It's like a wall calendar.

00:37:10   And you've got the day numbers of the month in one horizontal row where you have to swipe

00:37:16   from week to week, which is not entirely discoverable or usable.

00:37:22   I don't understand why anybody would want that.

00:37:25   No, me neither.

00:37:27   It just doesn't really make sense to me.

00:37:30   I mean it kind of looks good, but in terms of actually using it as your calendar, it

00:37:33   doesn't even seem feasible.

00:37:36   The animation is slick as hell.

00:37:42   Just how there's like the little bit of offset when you swipe around.

00:37:48   But the status up by the title bar where the month is and the search button plus, it all

00:37:54   seems, again, without any borders around any of the objects, it all seems crammed together.

00:37:58   Yeah, a little bit.

00:38:00   One thing I noticed was that if you go to the Apple page for iOS 7, they don't even

00:38:05   have a demo.

00:38:06   You know, there's movies that demo all the built-in apps or most of the built-in apps.

00:38:10   Calendar doesn't have one, which furthers my vague suspicion that this is so unfinished

00:38:16   that they don't even want to show it really yet. But I do, there's some animation stuff

00:38:21   that's great. Like when you're on the annual view, like I'm looking at 2013 and it shows

00:38:26   little square thumbnails for each month. If I tap on June, the J-U-N, it doesn't just,

00:38:32   the whole view doesn't like fade out, fade in. The June moves up to where it's supposed

00:38:38   to go and then the dates, you know what I mean? It's a great little animation the way

00:38:43   that it's they they stay there it's like you're staying in the same position in

00:38:47   it and it instead of the whole view sliding over to the left the elements

00:38:52   stay on screen and zoom up into position yeah there's some really nice stuff is

00:38:58   there any stuff that you know I'm just curious what what made you go wow holy

00:39:03   crap this is brilliant and what made you go oh I never want to see that again hmm

00:39:10   I guess the first thing that made me say "wow" was just the basic zooming in, zooming out

00:39:22   feel.

00:39:23   Like there's something better and way, just to me way better about just when you tap an

00:39:29   icon and it's like the icon sort of turns into the app and zooms at your face to consume

00:39:36   the screen.

00:39:37   the home button it's like the screen snaps back into the iPhone or into the icon yeah

00:39:43   well also I really dig the new photos app yeah it's a big improvement I think the thing where

00:39:53   you can zoom out to these tiny little thumbnails and scrub over them extremely cool and is is

00:39:58   addressing there's a case where they're addressing an actual problem that real people have which is

00:40:03   is that you've got 800 photos on your photo roll and you don't know where, what,

00:40:06   what or where any of them are. Right. What about you?

00:40:11   What was the first thing that made you say, wow, probably it was the home.

00:40:14   It was the new home screen or the new, uh,

00:40:18   the new lock screen or other. Hmm. Um,

00:40:22   just seeing that thin text for the first time was,

00:40:27   it's not necessarily better. It's just new. And this was the first,

00:40:31   really the first new thing that we'd seen design-wise in the OS since version 1.

00:40:37   Yeah, totally.

00:40:38   That's a screen that hasn't changed since version 1 except for the notifications that

00:40:43   they've added in the middle over the years.

00:40:46   Right.

00:40:47   Right.

00:40:48   I mean, the new notifications, whatever OS, was that 5?

00:40:53   I think so.

00:40:54   Those were a huge improvement.

00:40:55   I don't miss the old blue ones with the white stroker on them.

00:41:00   But I don't feel like this OS was just begging to have lighter text on it.

00:41:13   The sort of shameful thought is that it now looks more like other mobile OS's.

00:41:20   That's a good thought.

00:41:22   Let's get back to that one.

00:41:24   We'll continue from there.

00:41:26   Remember that.

00:41:27   But I'm going to take a break here and talk about our first sponsor.

00:41:28   You're gonna think that this whole thing was fixed, but it's not it's a total coincidence. Our first sponsor is

00:41:35   A new company new company to me at least called fracture

00:41:39   Fracture you send them your photos. Here's what you do. You send them photos. They print them in vivid color directly on glass

00:41:49   It's a picture a frame and a mount all-in-one

00:41:53   So it's not printed on some kind of paper and then mounted under glass. They actually print on the glass

00:41:59   They send you a box you send them the photos digitally

00:42:03   They send you back a box that includes everything you need to get your photo on your wall or on your desk

00:42:09   They're a small team. They hand assemble every print themselves right here in the USA in Florida in fact

00:42:15   There you go, Florida and they have what they call a 30-day happiness guarantee and a lifetime warranty

00:42:21   I kind of love that, happiness guarantee. They have three sizes. They have sizes starting

00:42:25   at five by five, small square for 12 bucks. It goes all the way up to 22 by 29, extra

00:42:33   large at $125 bucks. They've kindly, when they sent them for the sponsorship, they took

00:42:40   a couple of photos from me and sent me samples at three of these sizes. It's great. It's

00:42:46   really impressive and it's like the closer you get, the crazier it looks in a good way.

00:42:51   Dave: Yeah. They're really crisp and really well printed.

00:42:56   Dave: And it's in the same way that when you got your retina display iPhone and you're

00:43:01   like, "Wow, these pixels are right on the surface. This looks so much better." You lose

00:43:06   that little bit of parallax. It's the same thing with this where by printing right on

00:43:09   the glass, it's instantly you can tell that even from a couple of feet away that it's

00:43:15   a picture under glass, that it's a picture on glass.

00:43:18   And it's frameless.

00:43:19   It's just the glass.

00:43:21   There's nothing separated.

00:43:25   It comes mounted to a piece of foam, which has a real secure hole and a way to mount

00:43:31   to your wall and everything.

00:43:33   It's just a really nicely crafted product.

00:43:37   You put your own imagery on it.

00:43:40   It's not like you have to go to the frame store or anything because it's a drag.

00:43:44   You just like send them a digital photo.

00:43:47   - Yeah, you get this cool full bleed effect

00:43:50   because it's printed edge to edge.

00:43:52   It's, you know, people will be like,

00:43:53   people who don't know about Fracture will be like,

00:43:55   well, how the hell did you do that?

00:43:56   And then it'll be up to you whether you tell them or not.

00:43:58   But I'm telling you to go check them out and try them out.

00:44:01   Their website is fracture.me.

00:44:05   F-R-A-C-T-U-R-E.me.

00:44:10   And they have a promotion for talk show listeners.

00:44:14   Use this coupon code, the talk show, all one word,

00:44:17   the talk show, and you get 10% off your order.

00:44:21   Now, the reason I say you're gonna think the fix was in

00:44:24   is I just, I literally found this out five minutes

00:44:26   before we started recording.

00:44:28   They've got a sandwich video.

00:44:30   - Oh, they're going to, yeah, we're gonna make one.

00:44:31   - They're going to have one.

00:44:32   - Yeah.

00:44:33   - That they said, and they took a pool.

00:44:35   This is how I found out.

00:44:35   They said I got an email from them

00:44:37   where they wanted to confirm that I got the demos,

00:44:40   the pictures, and they said they had a pool

00:44:43   inside that they're all listeners of the show and they had a pool as to who was going to

00:44:48   be the guest this week. And Kyle, the guy who I was dealing with, his money was on Lisa

00:44:57   Bar.

00:44:58   All right. Hey, guys.

00:44:59   So he wins. But the fix was not in. I did not know this until I had already asked you

00:45:04   to be on the show.

00:45:05   Yeah, that comes as a surprise to me. I did not know that they were sponsors.

00:45:09   I think that the reason is I think it's inevitable. Here's why I think it's inevitable is I think

00:45:13   that cool companies with interesting new products,

00:45:17   and this is super cool.

00:45:18   I mean, this is like a really neat thing.

00:45:20   I never in a million years would have come up

00:45:22   with this idea, but now that I've seen it now,

00:45:24   this is what I wanna do with my pictures

00:45:27   that I wanna put on the wall from now on.

00:45:29   Cool companies like to sponsor this show,

00:45:34   and cool companies also clearly wants sandwich videos.

00:45:39   Who was the last one?

00:45:40   The last one was the--

00:45:41   the talks is our last shared but then there's the igloo igloo yeah it was

00:45:48   gonna sponsor twice on the show they're great and now you guys say we were last

00:45:52   time it was there was one the first one was out it was very funny but now

00:45:55   they've got they've got like a whole it's almost like a TV series of series

00:45:59   it's like a whole series and they're very funny anyway my thanks to fracture

00:46:04   go to fracture dot me and you can find out more and you can watch our soon not

00:46:10   Not yet, but soon you'll be able to watch a sandwich video.

00:46:13   Yeah.

00:46:14   Cool, guys.

00:46:15   All right.

00:46:16   So, uncomfortable, sort of uncomfortable fact is that iOS 7 looks more like other mobile

00:46:24   operating systems than iOS did before.

00:46:28   Yeah.

00:46:31   And in addition, maybe the thing it looks most like is not another operating system,

00:46:36   sort of looks a lot like the Google aesthetic for iOS apps, which is not the same as Android,

00:46:45   right? The Google apps for iOS don't look like Android. They look like Google's iOS

00:46:50   aesthetic.

00:46:51   Yeah, that's an interesting distinction. How would you characterize that? Just light text,

00:46:56   white background?

00:46:57   White background, translucency, right? Doesn't the Google Maps have a translucency? I think

00:47:02   it does.

00:47:03   Yeah.

00:47:04   you know, yeah, lighter, lighter weight, meaning thinner stroke

00:47:12   Helvetica. These sort of vibrant blue, reds, yellows, you know,

00:47:21   like the Google palette. Primary colors, maybe is a way to say

00:47:26   it.

00:47:27   Yeah, I mean, and to like, I'm not a designer. But I but I like, and you're not, you know,

00:47:36   you're not a designer either. But I kind of ask you, like, what, in your opinion, what is lighter

00:47:41   text mean? Why? Why that aesthetic? And why do people see? Why is it trending that way?

00:47:47   I don't know. I don't know what it means. Maybe it's a little friendlier.

00:47:54   I guess it kind of goes hand in hand to me with

00:47:57   Friendliness, I don't know. Yeah, I mean

00:48:00   Maybe just a sort of general trend though and Apple's been going that way marketing wise to

00:48:05   Ever since the I think starting with the MacBook Air

00:48:10   Yeah, yeah, definitely but that they you know to emphasize the air's lightness

00:48:16   They printed their myriad with a lighter text and then last year with the iPhone 5 they really went lighter

00:48:22   I think they even commissioned, might have commissioned a new version of Myriad.

00:48:26   But Myriad is a long story short, but it's a multiple master font.

00:48:30   So it was always intended to have highly adjustable stroke widths.

00:48:36   But they went super lightweight with it because they wanted to emphasize, you know,

00:48:40   it was like a way of emphasizing the physical thinness of the iPhone 5

00:48:46   with the thinness and lightness of the marketing material that surrounded it.

00:48:50   it.

00:48:51   Right.

00:48:52   And I get that, but why does it have to be everywhere?

00:48:55   Why does everything have to be now universally light?

00:48:59   I mean to me, first of all, was the world clamoring for universally lighter text?

00:49:03   Like, were people looking at normal-weight text and going, "Ah, my eyes."

00:49:11   And then, I mean, I just prefer that it were used selectively just like bold text is.

00:49:20   I don't know.

00:49:25   I think a lot of it is just subjective and it's what Johnny Ive and the other designers

00:49:30   who are calling the shots on the iOS 7 like, whether it's that they like it at the moment

00:49:36   or whether it's what they like forever.

00:49:38   I think it's what they like.

00:49:40   It's not to my personal liking.

00:49:42   Again, Vesperservice is a perfect example where the text there is a little heavier.

00:49:47   If anything, it's a little heavier than standard, I mean regular weight, Helvetica.

00:49:53   Ideal Sans' book, I think, has a slightly bolder stroke weight.

00:49:59   We use semi-bold in a bunch of places to go even bolder.

00:50:05   But I don't think – again, I think that's a way where Apple is setting – to me, I

00:50:11   think Apple is setting their own look for the default apps.

00:50:16   I don't think third-party apps necessarily need to follow that.

00:50:19   I mean, I could be wrong because I will admit I haven't read the design transition document

00:50:25   yet.

00:50:26   Maybe it says you've got to use Helvetica, Ultralight everywhere or else you're not

00:50:31   going to be cool.

00:50:33   But I don't think that's the case.

00:50:34   I think Apple is setting their own look.

00:50:37   What's interesting to me is that so much focus is being, so much attention is being

00:50:42   given to the icon, the icon redesigns.

00:50:45   Yeah.

00:50:46   Well, I'm not surprised, but it's, I'm surprised that a week later people are still

00:50:52   spending so much time on icons.

00:50:54   Right.

00:50:55   Which is like, it's just a small slice.

00:50:57   It's the most visible front facing slice of the redesign, but those can be designed

00:51:03   without any implication whatsoever on the rest of this of the operating system.

00:51:09   When I look at these, and it's all grads still, what they've done

00:51:15   away completely with is the spec, the glossy specularity on all of the

00:51:21   elements, which I'm pretty glad, I mean it's there in the Game Center icon still.

00:51:27   For some reason, I don't know why those bubbles are still glossy, but everywhere

00:51:30   else it's got a grad from light to dark. And what's interesting is that like in the mail

00:51:36   app and app store and videos and Safari, the lighter side of the grad is this neon greenish

00:51:43   blue. And the the implication of those kind of the of the highlights, because the reason

00:51:50   that grad exists is because you're simulating like there's a light source on the object,

00:51:54   right? Right. Well, I guess that's what it used to be. Well, I think it's true.

00:52:00   I feel like it's still got kind of gotta be like that that it's all about

00:52:04   Faking a light source, but the the the weird thing is that they're basically saying that these objects live under fluorescent green light

00:52:12   which weird I

00:52:15   Saw somebody there's a couple things to say about the home screen

00:52:18   And it's certainly gotten the most attention and I can't say I agree with all of it

00:52:23   But I do think I think it's exciting that it's new and I'm not as offended as a lot of people are at some of

00:52:28   decisions. But I think the reason everybody obsesses over icon design, even

00:52:35   not just professional people who actually make a living designing app

00:52:39   icons, who largely are upset about these changes, at least in most of the public

00:52:45   reaction I've seen, that there's sort of a collective "what the fuck" from people

00:52:50   who actually design icons professionally regarding this. But I think the reason

00:52:55   even armchair critics of iOS always, or any system, will jump on app icons is that app

00:53:01   icon design is the one area that's so encapsulated that everybody can imagine doing it, even

00:53:08   if they don't have the artistic ability to do it. Everybody thinks, can at least imagine

00:53:13   being able to draw an app icon. You just make a doodle in a little square. And so everybody

00:53:19   has ideas. And any time you've ever done client work and it involves an icon, God, that's

00:53:23   the worst. It's just the worst because everybody has an idea. You can never please anybody

00:53:30   with app icons.

00:53:32   Yeah. Well, I mean, I really enjoyed Louis Mantia's. Did you see Louis Mantia's sort

00:53:38   of re… I guess he just did it. He put it up on Dribbble and it was a redesign of the

00:53:44   icon set.

00:53:45   No, I didn't see it.

00:53:46   Oh, it's really tasteful. If anybody could do it, that guy could.

00:53:50   Louis pisses people off. I love Louis.

00:53:52   Sure, me too.

00:53:53   He's got no, and this is partly why I love him though,

00:53:58   is that he's got no off switch.

00:54:00   Like he'll say what he thinks.

00:54:02   Like, and this was a year or two ago

00:54:05   when they redesigned one of the iTunes logos.

00:54:07   He pissed a lot of people off

00:54:08   because he trashed the new one from Apple.

00:54:11   - Yeah, well I just sent you the link to that on Dribbble.

00:54:15   - Oh, here it comes.

00:54:16   - 'Cause the icons are so good.

00:54:17   - Yeah, I got it.

00:54:18   Yeah, that looks pretty good.

00:54:20   Well, no, actually I kind of disagree with some of these.

00:54:22   Okay. Like, for example, on the male, he went back to these

00:54:27   tapered edges on the diagonals. Sure. envelope things. Whereas I

00:54:33   think that the the new the new look in iOS seven where they're

00:54:37   sort of it's more iconified is actually better. They're just

00:54:40   these they're not it's a little bit less realistic and a little

00:54:43   bit more of like a idealized envelope

00:54:47   uniformly uniformly spaced.

00:54:52   Yeah. Right. But largely I see what you're talking about. But you see, here's the thing

00:54:58   I see with the gradients or as you call them the grads.

00:55:01   Yeah. Is that like on the green ones like phone

00:55:05   and message, it looks like they're light at the top, dark at the bottom.

00:55:10   Mm-hmm. And on the blue ones, they're dark at the top

00:55:12   and light at the bottom, which to me is confusing light source wise.

00:55:16   Yeah. Like if you're talk, you know, and in the

00:55:19   old iOS, the gradients and those 3Dness, it was definitely light source, you know, and

00:55:27   it was about a three dimensionality to them. Whereas in the new one, I'm not quite sure

00:55:31   why there's a gradient on the ones that have a gradient because the ones, if it's light

00:55:35   at the top, dark at the bottom, to me that says it's a, I always get this mixed up, a

00:55:41   convex shape. And if like male where it's dark blue at the top and light at the bottom,

00:55:47   a concave shape because that's what would catch the light.

00:55:50   Yeah, I don't know. I think it's more about source. I mean, it's all got a basis in photography

00:55:56   where sometimes for dramatic effect you underlight something.

00:56:00   Right. One big change though, and it's very, very clear to me, is that the old iOS button

00:56:07   or icons like the home screen looked like an array of buttons. I don't know if that's

00:56:13   exactly why they went with this, you know, like one of the big changes iOS made and enforces

00:56:18   is that your icon has to be this round cornered square. And no matter what you do within it,

00:56:25   it's got to be a round cornered square. And some people have done really clever things

00:56:29   to make them 3D, you know, like books, you know, make it look like a book, even though

00:56:34   it's still in this enforced shape.

00:56:36   Right. To add a bottom edge or something.

00:56:39   Right whereas you know on the Mac and Windows and other systems before the outline shape of an icon was completely up to the designer

00:56:46   It could be anything

00:56:48   And I thought that I always thought that it was clear from the shape and the three dimensionality and the the aqua

00:56:55   Candiness to them to all of them that they were meant to be like buttons

00:57:00   You know any idea was you have a home screen of buttons?

00:57:03   And these are the things you can do on your iPhone and you hit a button to do that thing

00:57:09   And it was almost like you didn't even have to think of them as apps, that it was a thing

00:57:13   you did on your phone because they were really concerned that, hey, most people at the time,

00:57:20   2007, had a phone that they could barely use to make phone calls, that they could barely

00:57:26   program with their beloved friends' and families' numbers and associate a name with them.

00:57:32   And if they did figure it out, it was a huge pain in the ass.

00:57:35   And so here they're asking people to buy a phone that could browse the internet and be

00:57:39   an iPod and manage their calendar and do all these things.

00:57:44   And I, you know, I think they started with this mindset of, "Well, let's pretend that

00:57:47   it's a regular phone and you just have these features."

00:57:49   And there's one level of hierarchy.

00:57:51   You go to a home screen, you pick calendar and it's a button.

00:57:56   The new buttons or the new icons in iOS 7 don't look like buttons anymore.

00:58:01   still have that uniform outline but it's they're not buttony yeah they're more I

00:58:09   don't know in this case I think they are more they're more like abstractions but

00:58:14   they're they're like things I guess I I guess I agree with you I you see you've

00:58:20   seen that diagram that is supposed to be the guideline or the template with the

00:58:25   different circles in the grid right and everything and the circles way bigger

00:58:30   than you think it would be.

00:58:31   Dave Asprey And our pal, Neven Murgen, had a good piece

00:58:35   about that.

00:58:36   Jon Moffitt Right, and went so far as to say that it was

00:58:39   a wrong, it was an aesthetically wrong decision.

00:58:43   And then photographer friend David Friedman actually made an interesting point that he

00:58:50   feels like it's a choice to break the aesthetic pattern or the aesthetic expectation much

00:58:56   in the way that there's a rule of thirds for photographers and it's an aesthetic choice

00:59:03   to break the rule of thirds intentionally.

00:59:07   And he thinks that that's what Ive has done with this grid.

00:59:10   I think he's exactly right.

00:59:12   I do not think that it was any sort of ignorance about the conventions of iOS iconography or

00:59:21   best practices of iOS iconography or an

00:59:25   unawareness of what was deemed by good

00:59:29   icon designers as the best icons on iOS.

00:59:32   I think it's a deliberate attempt to

00:59:34   sort of break those expectations. I think

00:59:37   there was a sort of, sounds dismissive,

00:59:40   and I don't mean it to be, but a sort of

00:59:41   cargo cult around icon design for iOS.

00:59:45   That there was this, this is the right

00:59:47   look and feel for a good iOS icon and

00:59:50   and people, some of the people who are good at it got really good at it.

00:59:54   Like there are some really cool icons for iOS apps,

00:59:56   but I think it really got locked into a certain, I don't know,

01:00:01   like a certain mentality that I don't know is, was meant to be forever.

01:00:05   Well, I agree. I mean, this is a radical shift in it, but it's not going to be,

01:00:10   it's not the last radical shift that's going to happen.

01:00:12   They might even be making them less, these shifts will be more, uh,

01:00:18   you know, temporary, transitory. Like, just like when you when you go for it, I feel like

01:00:25   aesthetically when when there's a shift like this, that it just almost implies the next shift is

01:00:30   going to shift is going to happen quicker. Yeah, I think some maybe. And I do think too,

01:00:35   the other big thing about the grid is that the grid is not meant to make any individual icon

01:00:41   look better. The grid is very specifically about making your entire home screen of 20

01:00:48   or 24 apps all arrayed together look better. And I do think there's some harmony to that.

01:00:56   Like on mine, I happen to have a clock next to App Store, next to Settings, which are

01:01:02   all circles in the round square. And it's something nice about the fact that all the

01:01:07   circles are the same size. Did you notice that the clock is live now?

01:01:12   Dave Asprey Yeah, I read that. Oh, and it's a sweep.

01:01:16   It's not a tick. On the second hand.

01:01:20   Dave Does that aggravate you and make you worry

01:01:22   that it's burning CPU cycles? That it should only be updating once every second and not

01:01:29   every third of a second or whatever it's sweeping at?

01:01:31   Dave Asprey It's pretty awesome. It's just like I don't

01:01:35   if they could make that secondhand any thinner than the one pixel by 20 pixels that it is,

01:01:42   40 maybe.

01:01:43   Dave Asprey What do you think about the new folders?

01:01:47   Aaron Alexander I think they're really attractive.

01:01:49   Dave Asprey I do too, and I think that it's also one

01:01:52   of the best uses of translucency in the system. I think the way that you can pan through them

01:02:03   uh... you know and make multiple screens of them within a folder so you could

01:02:06   just really put all of your even if you have a t games you can put them all in

01:02:09   one folder games

01:02:11   and just sort of have like to speak and you know have two modes for your

01:02:14   i've found you could just have all your apps and then a folder just for games

01:02:18   and sort of switch to game mode in page three i think it's great

01:02:22   i think it's very very thoughtful and in a way that i think really makes it

01:02:26   easier to organize a lot of apps

01:02:29   is among all the changes that we've been talking about is

01:02:32   should be instantly familiar to existing iPhone users.

01:02:37   I don't think anybody would be confused

01:02:40   by these new folders.

01:02:42   - Yeah, I love that frosted glass.

01:02:44   I had, I wasn't able to tell on the wall,

01:02:47   the default wallpaper that I had installed,

01:02:49   but I just set a really colorful photo to the,

01:02:53   to my home screen and got the folder with the frosted glass

01:02:59   and the super defocused background.

01:03:01   it looks more real than anything in iowa six two

01:03:04   yeah it looks like it really looks like a street touch it and feel like a

01:03:08   attacks trust

01:03:09   yeah frosted glass texture

01:03:11   there's one thing i think there's two things about it though that i think that

01:03:13   they could improve

01:03:15   on the home screen

01:03:17   all laps and the folders have their label underneath

01:03:22   when you tap a folder it opens up it zooms up it doesn't decide again it's

01:03:26   the same thing like just sort of zooming in and out

01:03:29   But the text goes away, and a new text label in a bigger font is written above.

01:03:35   I think that the label should still be underneath, and it should zoom with the icon.

01:03:39   Yeah, what's that about?

01:03:41   I don't know. I don't understand. It's right there. I don't understand why it doesn't zoom.

01:03:45   Just like the thing I talked about in the calendar a couple minutes ago, where the

01:03:48   month name, even though it moves into a different position versus the days of the calendar,

01:03:54   it just zooms into that position and the days zoom over.

01:03:57   I'm sure they're saving that space on the bottom for something else.

01:04:00   Dave Asprey The other thing I thought is that you should

01:04:02   be able to pinch it to close it.

01:04:04   And then I read on 9to5Mac the other day that somebody was poking around the internals of

01:04:11   it and there is a hidden setting that they obviously were playing with that.

01:04:16   Jon Streeter Oh, cool.

01:04:18   Dave Asprey Because right now to close it you just tap

01:04:20   away from it, but I think you should be able to pinch it.

01:04:23   I think the new folders are very cool.

01:04:28   I think people will get used to the icons.

01:04:32   I think the colors are curiously chosen now.

01:04:35   You brought that up before.

01:04:36   That it almost…

01:04:37   I don't know how to describe them.

01:04:40   They're not my…

01:04:41   They're not…

01:04:42   I don't hate them.

01:04:43   It's not like, "Boy, this really bothers me."

01:04:45   But they're not to my liking.

01:04:47   Yeah.

01:04:48   Who knows?

01:04:49   Who knows?

01:04:50   It's just like I said, I feel it's transitional.

01:04:54   Who knows what next year will be?

01:04:55   Dave: Do you think that there are—who do you think the target audience for the colors

01:04:59   is?

01:05:00   Eric Lander That's a good question.

01:05:01   I mean, I would think younger people.

01:05:04   Dave That's what I think too.

01:05:07   To me, it's not a masculine-feminine thing.

01:05:09   It's a kids—nah, kids is too rough.

01:05:12   It doesn't look childish even though I've seen a lot of critics of the icons call them

01:05:17   childish.

01:05:19   It's youthful though, and I feel like at 40 I'm old enough where there's people

01:05:23   who I can call "youths" who are a lot younger than me but aren't kids.

01:05:28   Mad Fientist Right.

01:05:30   Definitely.

01:05:31   There's, you know, colors come in and out of fashion just like clothes do.

01:05:39   And I guess this palette is very current, hopefully.

01:05:45   like a lot of people have compared it to sort of '80s neon Miami Vice aesthetic?

01:05:56   Steven: Yeah, maybe. I think it's also true. I do think it's true. I think this is a

01:06:04   a lot it's a fundamentally timeless design for the OS but I feel like it it

01:06:10   affords for fashionable decoration on top right like I feel like the metaphors

01:06:20   that they're using in a way that they're using zooming in in and out and layering

01:06:26   is is fundamentally with this for you know probably the the rest of iOS is

01:06:31   life and I think it's a good thing. I think the actual specific palette of like the colors

01:06:36   used on the icons is subject to change in two years.

01:06:40   Definitely. That's all just skin.

01:06:42   Right. But it's interesting. For example, I do have on my testing phone, I have Google

01:06:46   Maps installed, the Google Maps app. And the Google Maps app really looks like the colors

01:06:51   on the icon looks so restrained.

01:06:54   Yeah, I agree.

01:06:57   As in general, I think Google uses colors that are more primary than I like.

01:07:05   Everybody named me I like gray.

01:07:07   That's my favorite color and black.

01:07:11   Compared to Apple's new icons, Google's looks very, very flat.

01:07:16   I don't mean flat in a three-dimensional way.

01:07:18   Flat colors.

01:07:19   Mad Fientist Yeah, just restrained.

01:07:21   They're sticking with the design of the maps, which I guess maybe maps have to just be universally

01:07:27   colored in order to be accessible yeah I don't know desaturated that's another

01:07:32   way to think yeah I mean it's funny to think it's really funny to think of

01:07:35   Google as the one using desaturated colors kind of crazy actually it's the

01:07:46   color of the road and maps is the same color is the same yellow as the the top

01:07:52   of the notes icon.

01:07:54   Yeah.

01:07:55   Hmm.

01:07:56   Is it really?

01:07:58   Very close.

01:07:59   Yeah, very close.

01:08:01   Definitely.

01:08:03   Here's another thing.

01:08:07   You go to, for example, and I think it's maybe the best example, you go to the mail

01:08:11   app.

01:08:12   At the bottom, it's the same fundamental layout as the old mail app, a nav bar at the

01:08:17   top.

01:08:18   You can go up and down messages.

01:08:20   can go back to the you know further up the hierarchy and then at the bottom is

01:08:25   a toolbar where there's a flag button a folder button archive or trash button

01:08:30   reply button and a new message button what do you think about those icons at

01:08:35   the bottom in the toolbar the square with the arrow up all of them like in

01:08:41   mail like the flag folder archive reply like when you're in a message they're

01:08:53   they're fine I mean they say what they they're supposed to say they're light

01:08:57   and nice and clean so I can't get into the one the the square with the up

01:09:02   pointing arrow though yeah don't know what the hell it is that's like the

01:09:06   replacement share button I know whether it's a share button or just action

01:09:10   button because in some cases it's not a sharing thing. It's just sort of like a do something

01:09:14   with this thing.

01:09:15   Eric Banderman Yeah, yeah. I've always thought of it as

01:09:18   a share button I guess but now it's difficult. It's tricky getting used to the up arrow and

01:09:24   it seems like it shouldn't make that big of a difference.

01:09:27   Dave Asprey I don't like them. I don't like this aesthetic

01:09:30   of icons.

01:09:31   Eric Banderman They look like dry cleaning instructions on

01:09:34   a piece of clothing.

01:09:36   They just don't fit with anything to my mind.

01:09:40   And there's this site and it's got a funny domain name.

01:09:45   Like Helveticons.

01:09:48   That makes sense.

01:09:51   If you Google Helveticons and it's spelled weird, it's H-L-V-

01:09:56   Here it is. H-L-V-I-T-I-C-O-N-S.

01:10:01   So HLV for Helvetica, just H-L-V-T and then icons, dot CH because it's Swiss.

01:10:10   And they're not open source.

01:10:11   They're royalty free.

01:10:13   You pay for them.

01:10:14   But they're like clip art icons you can use.

01:10:16   And the idea is that it's like clip art icons that are supposed to look like the general

01:10:21   aesthetic of Helvetica, of the font.

01:10:26   And I think that they largely succeed.

01:10:27   I think that they do kind of.

01:10:29   I don't know, you know, I'm not even quite sure how to describe that but a certain

01:10:33   rectangularness to them in uniform stroke width

01:10:36   Characterizes Helvetica these icons have that to me is what the icons in Iowa seven should look like more or less. Yeah that they should match

01:10:46   somehow harm harmoniously with the feel of

01:10:51   Helvetica itself whereas these feel totally foreign to me and and I

01:10:57   You know, I actually think a lot like Android like they look robotic to me

01:11:02   Yeah, they just look like to me. They just look like really lightweight Helvetica Helveticons

01:11:08   There's something about them that doesn't look like Helvetica to me. It's like they're too. I don't know rectilinear

01:11:15   Like as Helvetica, you know when things are flat in Helvetica, they are very flat and when they're rectangular

01:11:21   It's a right corner, but when things are curved, it's very curvy. Whereas these have very little curve to them at all

01:11:27   It's all just rectangles and right angles and 45 degree angles

01:11:31   And the other thing about them too is that there's all again there's almost no indication

01:11:38   When you've tapped on one that you've successfully tapped on it unless you kind of purposefully tap off to the side because there's no

01:11:45   Background color change the old iOS had like a fade when you click on toolbar icons or a glow

01:11:52   Well glow I guess that's a better way to put it a glow and it was a large enough radius on the glow that you

01:11:58   Could see it outside your you know your finger unless you know you really covered it up with a big fat thumb or something

01:12:05   But it would give you this instant hit you know feedback that hey

01:12:08   You've hit the thing that you were trying to hit or that you didn't hit the thing that you were trying to hit

01:12:13   Whereas this you you completely cover them up and the only visual indication is that they get lighter

01:12:20   Yeah, a little concerned about that tell you the truth. Yeah, I mean, maybe they're just making all this stuff. So

01:12:26   Milk toast that it's just encouraging people to screw with it. I don't know encouraging designers to break it and make their own

01:12:34   You know and I don't know. I mean, I hope this whole show hasn't sounded like I'm down on iOS 7

01:12:39   I'm super excited by it

01:12:41   And I think it's great overall

01:12:42   But I think there's a lot of little details in what we've seen so far that that really need a lot of work agreed

01:12:49   We do the second sponsor and we'll finish the show great our second sponsor also very excited about

01:12:55   Brand new app just launched today. I

01:12:59   Know that it's out right now. We're recording on Thursday the 20th. I'm not sure though today

01:13:04   Officially it's in the store you get it, but I know the show's not coming out till tomorrow

01:13:08   So maybe it launched yesterday depending on when you're listening. It's called insta browser

01:13:14   Insta browser and you can find out more at insta browser co co

01:13:19   Here's what it is. It's an iPhone app and it turns any web page into a mobile web page whole point of the app is

01:13:26   Mobilification of the web it downloads just the pages HTML it parses out the context and the content and then it renders it

01:13:35   In a beautiful mobile style and it figures out which parts of the page which images actually matter and only gets those

01:13:42   And so it's sort of like a you know like the way you might use instapaper or something else for read it later

01:13:47   It's an it's for reading it now. It's a read it now and it's great

01:13:51   For any kind of context where you're out and you don't have a great mobile connection or you're at

01:13:56   Conference or something like that and everything super slow because then instead of loading the full web page and then mobile flying it somehow

01:14:04   It's just you put it in read it now mode and it does a mobile thing right from the get-go

01:14:10   And it does a really good job. This is the hard part sounds like a great idea

01:14:13   Lots of other apps have done this lots of other services do it

01:14:16   But I tried it out for a whole big stretch

01:14:20   And it does a great job on all the all the every site

01:14:24   I tried to use it on does a great job of actually figuring out

01:14:27   Here's the actual part that you want to read and just giving you that

01:14:30   Has an automatic table of contents for every page where it parses out the links on the page

01:14:37   and you just swipe over to the side, has a nice little 3D effect, and it just shows you the links

01:14:42   on the page, which is great if you go to something like a home page of a blog or something like that.

01:14:48   You could just go to Daring Fireball. What it shows you is just a list of all the links on

01:14:52   Daring Fireball, and then you can find the one that you want and just load that. So it's meant

01:14:57   for speed, it's meant for browsing, like a table of contents style. And most importantly,

01:15:06   it does a perfect job of rendering during Fireball on the iPhone. It's launching today.

01:15:13   Again, I'm not quite sure if today is today today or yesterday today, but when you hear

01:15:17   this, if you hear me saying this to you, it's there. Introductory price just $2.99. You

01:15:24   Go to the App Store, search for InstaBrowser. You'll find it or find out more at InstaBrowser.co,

01:15:32   not .com, .co for more information.

01:15:38   My only concern is my concern is I've already – I already – every time I say Insta – I

01:15:44   want to say Instagram, I say InstaPaper and whenever I want to say InstaPaper, I say InstaGram

01:15:49   and now I've got a third one. Now I've got InstaBrowser. So I'm going to screw

01:15:53   them all up three ways.

01:15:54   Well, three is all we need. No more Instas. Speaking of Instagram, though, the news today

01:16:02   is video on Instagram. Now, you're not a Vine user very much. You've done it a couple times.

01:16:07   Jay Haynes Yeah, I think it's because I'm not good at it.

01:16:12   I found Vine to be interesting. And I do check once in a while. And you're…

01:16:18   I'm not good at it either.

01:16:22   I want to make that clear.

01:16:24   I don't naturally think in that format.

01:16:26   There are some people that are really good at it.

01:16:28   But it tends not to be filmmakers.

01:16:35   So there's no correlation between people who make good films and people who shoot good

01:16:42   films.

01:16:45   My favorite Vine person is Will Sasso, the comic actor.

01:16:50   He used to be on Mad TV.

01:16:53   I don't know what else he's been doing.

01:16:55   He was in the Three Stooges movie and he makes the funniest damn Vines I've ever seen.

01:16:59   They always make me laugh.

01:17:01   He's the Rob Delaney of Vines basically.

01:17:03   Dave: I'm going to put that in the show notes.

01:17:06   Everybody can go and look.

01:17:07   What Instagram announced today is pretty much that they're just doing what Vine does,

01:17:13   except they're going to give you 15 seconds instead of six seconds. Right. Which in principle,

01:17:18   boo. Yeah, it really seems derivative. It really seems spiteful. It really seems like all these

01:17:25   other guys built a nice new thing that stands on its own. You know, it clearly isn't keeping people

01:17:31   from using Instagram. It's just a nice new thing. It just happens to be owned by Twitter,

01:17:38   which is I guess, a rival of Facebook. So now they've got to do the same thing.

01:17:43   Well, the best thing that could possibly happen is if Instagram accidentally poached its own

01:17:47   success or what do you call it when…

01:17:56   I forget the word, but basically that they've diluted themselves by allowing video and that

01:18:03   nobody's going to be interested in going there for stills or video anymore.

01:18:07   I mean, no ill will to the good people at Instagram, but fuck Facebook.

01:18:16   You know what?

01:18:17   You took the words right out of my mouth, Adam.

01:18:18   I feel the same way.

01:18:20   I like Instagram.

01:18:21   I like using it, but I feel like this is such a dick move.

01:18:24   And I also have to say, when I go to Instagram, I don't want to see people's movies.

01:18:27   If I wanted to see movies, I'd go to Vine.

01:18:31   I kind of like the compartmentalization of Instagram and Vine and things like that.

01:18:40   And if people want to, if there's a place where they should be sending them or you see

01:18:44   them all at once, let people post them on their Facebook wall or put them on their Twitter

01:18:49   or something like that.

01:18:50   But I tend not to like it unless it's something really special out of the ordinary.

01:18:54   I instantly start thinking about unfollowing when somebody Twitters all of their Instagrams.

01:18:59   Sure, or their vote if I wanted to see all of your instagrams, I would follow you on instagram

01:19:04   Yeah, no, we're probably wrong and it's going to be in instagram is going to blow up even huger than it is and now

01:19:11   video is going to be

01:19:13   Completely ubiquitous in the 15-second form and maybe people forget about vine

01:19:18   Now what that would suck

01:19:21   But I think that I think the vine still has something really crucial and special which is that

01:19:28   the videos are meant to auto load and just play without any interaction without any

01:19:33   You know in involvement on them on the users part and you still have to I believe you still have to press play on the Instagram

01:19:41   videos

01:19:42   yeah, I don't I haven't upgraded my app yet, but I

01:19:45   Can't see how the 15 second thing is an improvement

01:19:52   I mean, who knows? Maybe it is. But it seems to me like when people would come out with

01:19:57   rivals to Twitter and their feature would be that it has more than 140 characters. That

01:20:05   hasn't worked. So I don't know that it's going to work here either. And it's funny,

01:20:09   again, to see Twitter being the one with the more restrictive limitation.

01:20:12   Yeah, but it makes sense. I don't know.

01:20:20   I don't know if it makes sense. It makes spiteful sense. I don't know if it makes this is a good

01:20:24   idea for Instagram sense. I don't know. I mean, the one point of friction to vine for in vine is

01:20:35   in the thing that keeps I think people from using it as much as they want to is the load times on

01:20:42   the videos. And I think probably Instagram has I'm just assuming a little bit more capacity, but I

01:20:49   I don't know.

01:20:50   That's a total guess.

01:20:51   Dave Asprey You know, one thing Vine does that's pretty

01:20:53   clever is that they auto upload in the background.

01:20:56   So like as you're recording, because they don't let you go back, right?

01:20:59   So you start like if you want to have like three shots in your Vine, you hold down for

01:21:05   the one and then you let go.

01:21:07   It starts uploading that video like immediately.

01:21:11   Trevor Burrus Oh, really?

01:21:12   Dave Asprey Yeah, I think so.

01:21:13   Because if you ever try to play with it, you never have to wait for it to upload.

01:21:18   I think they're doing some tricks there and then even if you cancel then they just send a thing to the server and say I

01:21:23   Throw that throw that thing away

01:21:25   right

01:21:26   But it doesn't seem like Instagram does that it's like now you got these shoot one of these things you gotta wait for the damn

01:21:31   thing I

01:21:33   Say boo I say boo to

01:21:35   Jerks hope they don't sponsor the show

01:21:40   What else with iOS 7

01:21:47   It's gracious, I don't know what do you have you played around with radio yet? I have I think it's one of the most polished parts

01:21:54   Of it. I think it's great. Mm-hmm. It feels like a finished

01:21:57   It's the one of the few things that to me just feels like you don't have to touch it ship it

01:22:00   This is great. The whole music app is really pretty well done

01:22:03   But radio really seems done to me. Yeah

01:22:08   What do you think? I'm just playing around with it for the first time actually. Oops. Well, it's really nice

01:22:14   Oh, man, you cost us like $15,000 in music licensing.

01:22:19   I won't tell you what it was.

01:22:25   When I tapped to load a song, it gave me the status circle, the loading circle, which is

01:22:31   new.

01:22:32   And that's across all apps.

01:22:37   So there's no longer the dotted line circle?

01:22:41   Yeah, I don't think so.

01:22:43   I think it's like a it's a it's a circle. Yeah, it's it's a little bit more like a watch thing going. Yeah

01:22:50   Fascinating I feel like every every decision they make

01:22:57   The only choice I can have is to be like Bill Murray's character in in Royal Tenenbaums when he's studying the kid who's like

01:23:05   very

01:23:08   much mentally

01:23:09   handicapped and

01:23:11   If the kid does something weird and wrong he just goes fascinating

01:23:15   And I and I feel like that's how I keep reacting to this OS over and over again. Here's an interesting

01:23:20   repercussion of the white background everywhere and the music app

01:23:25   Which I think is I really do think is one of the most polished of all these new apps

01:23:29   But the music app shows this so in the old OS

01:23:32   If you had a toolbar at the bottom of your app

01:23:38   let's say like mail it would by default have this sort of pale blue gradient

01:23:44   background and the buttons were actions so you would hit the reply button and

01:23:49   you were replying to the message you're looking at something was going to happen

01:23:53   and if you had a tab controller at the bottom it was black with you know like

01:24:00   an inverse you know color screen and and then the idea was when you hit these

01:24:03   things you weren't doing something you were changing the view it's a tab

01:24:08   controller. Whereas in now in iOS seven, everything has a white background. And so like in the music

01:24:14   app, it's it's still a tab controller at the bottom, which it's always been in which makes

01:24:18   design sense. But it has the same appearance as like the action bar in in other apps.

01:24:28   True. And again, I think they're just assuming that users know by now.

01:24:34   That's a big assumption. I think that they might be right, but I think it's like a serious change.

01:24:39   The other thing too is that the icons in this app to me are much better. These are great icons.

01:24:44   Like the radio icon I think is great. And I think it looks like Helvetica.

01:24:49   Yeah, it's neat. I like the little notch at the top of the antenna.

01:24:54   Yeah, I do too. I think it's like a perfect example of like retina first design.

01:25:01   It's not that the icons weren't retinified, you know, starting three years ago when the

01:25:06   iPhone 4 came out, but they were like retinified versions of the non-retina icons.

01:25:11   Whereas these are retina icons.

01:25:13   There's like this tiny little, I mean, you really have to almost, for me, I have to like

01:25:17   hold the phone close to my eyes to see it, but there's like that little notch in the

01:25:20   antenna.

01:25:21   It's great.

01:25:22   I love the record stacks in the radio app.

01:25:24   Yeah, I do too.

01:25:26   And the parallax as you flow by them.

01:25:30   Yeah, it's subtle and it's way less in your face than the old cover flow

01:25:34   but to me it's it's way nicer because it's not in your face and it's not like

01:25:39   Showing off like look at this. It's you know, it's cover flow, but

01:25:43   It's just a little bit of a depth cue. Yep, and it and it also gives you a

01:25:49   left to right cue as to where you are in the

01:25:53   You know in the order and then the

01:25:58   Only thing that is still cover flow like is this is the Safari tab switching? Yes

01:26:05   Which to me I like and you will do you realize what I think I talked about this last week on the show

01:26:13   I don't remember them. But do you know why they switched Safari tab switching? No

01:26:18   They switched for a tab switching because the old Safari tab switching is now the multitasking interface

01:26:24   Oh, right a side to side, you know thumbnails big almost full-screen thumbnails that you scroll through left to right

01:26:31   And so if they were using that metaphor that card metaphor side to side for apps

01:26:37   Then they needed something new for tabs

01:26:39   Right, and then yeah

01:26:42   I do remember you guys talking about this and that they can now you can fit so many more of them on screen at once

01:26:47   Which is a good thing is you can have more than eight tabs, which is always driving me crazy in the old Safari

01:26:53   Yeah, and the other thing that this affords is a much nicer interface to iCloud tabs,

01:27:02   which I use and I think is a great feature because I constantly think like I'll have

01:27:09   some article by somebody open and mostly read and I want to link to it on during Fireball.

01:27:14   But if I go to bed and wake up the next morning, I cannot remember which device I read it on.

01:27:19   I know it's open somewhere, but I don't remember where.

01:27:22   It's really cool and it's one of those examples of iCloud working exactly like it should despite

01:27:26   all the, you know, many complaints.

01:27:31   On Safari on my Mac, there's a nice cloud button right in my toolbar that I can click

01:27:37   and it shows all the tabs open on all my devices.

01:27:39   And on the iPad, there's the same thing.

01:27:41   But the iPhone never had that button because it didn't have room for it.

01:27:44   And I understand that it didn't have room.

01:27:46   But what they used to make you do is go into your bookmarks, leave whatever folder you

01:27:51   were in and switch to iCloud tabs folder to get to your iCloud tabs and then that also

01:27:59   meant that when you wanted to go to your regular bookmarks for your iPhone, you'd have to do

01:28:04   it all over again. Whereas this, you just go to your tabs and it shows you your tabs

01:28:09   that are open on your phone and then scroll down a little bit further and it just shows

01:28:13   you all the tabs open as a list on all of your devices.

01:28:16   on all of your devices.

01:28:19   It's very cool.

01:28:21   I'm a big iCloud fan.

01:28:24   I'm getting there.

01:28:26   I mean, I like iCloud for the stuff that it does well.

01:28:29   It's the third-party sync stuff that it still doesn't work well with.

01:28:34   But for the built-in Apple stuff, it's really starting to work well.

01:28:36   I can't remember the last time.

01:28:38   It might be a year, well over a year, two years that I've had a problem with something

01:28:44   like contact syncing, where I know that I've entered the contact, a new person's phone

01:28:50   number, but it hasn't synced across all my devices.

01:28:52   Like –

01:28:53   Ben

01:29:14   of thing you do once a year like paid your taxes it's like I better sync my Palm Pilot

01:29:18   and get out of context. You said to do the same thing with the Newton too. It was like

01:29:24   that what was that thing called it was like the Newton Command Center or something like

01:29:28   that. It was this horrible Mac app that would just sort of shuffle some like some but not

01:29:33   all of your information between the devices. Yeah. Yeah, New Safari with more than eight

01:29:41   tabs is great because the thing that always bit me and you know I'm sure if

01:29:45   you're complaining about the eight limit is you'd get to eight and then forget

01:29:49   that you were at eight and then you'd click a link like an email and it would

01:29:52   go over and just erase like the oldest one and you'd be like what I don't

01:29:56   remember what it was well it's the only one with the back button right there

01:30:01   would always no I don't think they gave you a back button when they did that no

01:30:04   they do they do that's how you would know which tab was got overwritten and

01:30:09   And then you have to make a choice.

01:30:10   I used to just throw my phone against the wall.

01:30:14   That's how you get more than eight tabs is by two iPhones.

01:30:19   Here's a weird thing, though.

01:30:23   When you want to throw away a tab, you can only slide it to the one side.

01:30:27   You have to slide it to the left.

01:30:28   I'm not quite sure why can't you slide it both ways.

01:30:30   Oh, is that what you do?

01:30:31   I've been tapping the little X and missing.

01:30:33   You can tap the X, but you can just toss it over to the side to close it, too.

01:30:38   I think there's a lot of discoverable stuff like that.

01:30:42   I mean, it's kind of like the Mac in that way, that there are a lot of tips and tricks

01:30:48   I think that are still going to be left, gestures that are left to be discovered.

01:30:52   Well, anyway, it's going to be a long summer.

01:30:59   I do.

01:31:00   I think there's going to be a lot of beta.

01:31:01   I think we're going to see a lot of betas of this thing.

01:31:04   I think this is the earliest we've ever seen something like this from Apple.

01:31:08   Maybe except for the original public betas of Mac OS X back in like, I don't know, when

01:31:15   was that, like 2000 or so.

01:31:18   And I still think, I think what we're seeing is sort of like that version of it.

01:31:21   You know, remember the one where there was the Apple logo in the middle of the menu bar?

01:31:26   I think that's what this is for the iPhone.

01:31:29   Except that instead of, you know, having like two years to sort of polish it up, they've

01:31:33   They've got about three months.

01:31:34   Mad Fientist Right.

01:31:36   You did a whole episode on the Apple logo being the center of the menu bar in 2000,

01:31:41   didn't you?

01:31:42   Ben de la Torre If I would have had a show, I would have.

01:31:44   Mad Fientist Sure.

01:31:45   Ben de la Torre I remember thinking the world was going to

01:31:48   end then.

01:31:49   I was younger and more irritable.

01:31:51   Mad Fientist I just set up a new—we got a MacBook Air

01:31:55   for our in-house head of production here.

01:31:59   He's always been a Windows user, and it still bites me, as you just said, that the menu

01:32:07   bar comes translucent by default.

01:32:09   Steven: Oh, that still drives me nuts.

01:32:11   Yeah.

01:32:12   DAVE Why would they do that to people?

01:32:14   Steven I don't know.

01:32:16   It is weird.

01:32:17   I find it weird to set up.

01:32:19   I still find it weirdly hard to set up a new Mac.

01:32:21   DAVE Yeah.

01:32:22   There's all sorts of stuff you have to do, like throw away sound effects.

01:32:26   Steven Yeah.

01:32:27   Wait.

01:32:28   away sound effects? Oh, absolutely. Why do you do that? Oh, because they drive me bonkers.

01:32:33   Like the "ta-konk" when you throw something away or the crumpling up of trash when you

01:32:39   have to. What you have to do is you have to go into core audio services just to get to

01:32:43   those files. It's really nuts. Then you have to show package contents. But I do it

01:32:51   just habitually every time I set up a new Mac. There's no preference for that?

01:32:56   Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, I thought that there was a preference for that. I believe you have preference. Oh, I hope there is and I've just been spending

01:33:04   Like wasted that's our contest for the week. We got everybody out there help help Adam figure this out

01:33:10   Oh, I bet somebody knows command line all over the you know

01:33:13   Is it weird that's a weird thing

01:33:16   I you know shows should be almost over but is it weird that the Mac has sound effects for stuff like that?

01:33:22   but iOS doesn't. It seems like if any of them would have cutesy sound effects, it would

01:33:26   be iOS.

01:33:27   Well, no. I mean, I just set up a new iOS 7 install and the first thing I had to do

01:33:33   was disable keyboard clicks and lock sounds.

01:33:37   I like my keyboard clicks.

01:33:38   Oh.

01:33:39   Could we be friends?

01:33:42   I don't – fascinating.

01:33:44   Can we still be friends?

01:33:50   (laughing)

01:33:53   (both laughing)

01:33:55   (laughs)