The Talk Show

42: No One Has A Higher Horse


00:00:00   You know what, speaking of the old talk show, you know, this was last week.

00:00:04   I didn't commemorate it.

00:00:05   I guess it was, I don't know if it would have been a week before I skipped a show, but it's

00:00:11   a year since I started doing the show here at Mule.

00:00:15   And I didn't commemorate the year.

00:00:16   I guess it's even a year and a week.

00:00:18   Well, happy anniversary.

00:00:20   That's exciting.

00:00:21   One year has flown by pretty quickly.

00:00:25   And how are the hot, under-the-collar, long-time fans who were not so happy about your transition?

00:00:39   I don't really look at the iTunes.

00:00:41   I don't hear from them anymore.

00:00:43   I got some email at first, but most of it was in the iTunes comments.

00:00:49   I don't look at them that much anymore, but they still show up.

00:00:54   It still seems like there's every once in a while, I'll look at the comments and there's

00:00:57   one and I'll think, "Well, that's an old comment," because there's somebody commenting on it

00:01:01   like it just happened.

00:01:03   And then I look at the date on their comment and it's like yesterday and it's like, "You're

00:01:06   still..."

00:01:07   You know what I mean?

00:01:08   Like, "Get over it, pal."

00:01:09   I was actually thinking of you and thinking of that whole way that played out recently

00:01:16   when I was just kind of watching and commiserating from afar actually with Marco Arment about

00:01:23   this whole, you know, everyone's giving him a hard time about how much he did or didn't

00:01:26   make or should or shouldn't be nice to people and all this stuff. And it's just that certain

00:01:33   that there's this certain kind of personality out there that I think, no matter who you

00:01:37   are, if you have some level of success, somebody's going to try to chip away at it. Someone's

00:01:42   going to try to find, find, I think it's like a, it's like a, it's like a defensive gesture

00:01:50   on their part, maybe to explain, "Ah, I don't need to be jealous or envious of this person

00:01:55   anymore because they're actually a horrible person who once changed a feature in Instapaper

00:02:02   that made somebody mad." I don't know what it is, but there's two types of people. Well,

00:02:08   there's more than two types, but there's at least two types of people. One major group

00:02:11   of them is this group of people who are with you and for you and strongly in support of

00:02:16   everything you do until you do this one thing where it's like, "Oh, I thought you were some

00:02:22   kind of superhero."

00:02:23   I also think, and I think Marco is a particular magnet for this, especially his recent run.

00:02:30   Because what's up with that guy? Jesus Christ, he's selling everything. But I feel like he's

00:02:36   a particular magnet for this because his recent run, he's sold a couple of things, or he didn't

00:02:46   really sell the tumbler but he was part of it so he benefited because he had some sliver

00:02:53   of a stake in it and it sold for $27 gazillion. His personality and the way he is so... He's

00:03:00   not abrasive but he just doesn't bend in the face of jackasses. What I think he's a magnet

00:03:13   for is that there's a certain segment of people out there who feel that if you have or if

00:03:18   somebody else has been successful and clearly successful, then they're they're a free target

00:03:24   for just any anything you want to throw at them because it's fair game because they've

00:03:30   had some kind of success. And you can just sort of spew and and just like let off steam

00:03:36   in their direction.

00:03:37   Yeah, I actually thought about this when I was talking on my bits putting show with Jackie

00:03:42   Chang from formerly of, or I guess she's still with Ars Technica, but the famous Jackie Chang.

00:03:47   And we were talking about this spectrum of celebrity, where it's like, I think people are so

00:03:52   used to, for tens, hundreds of years, if you knew somebody's name and didn't know them personally,

00:04:01   then they must be so famous that they could take anything.

00:04:04   Jay Famiglietti Oh, that's a perfect way to put it. That's a good way to put it.

00:04:07   Yeah, because it's kind of like a modern affordance of modern technology that we are afforded small-scale

00:04:19   celebrities. People like you would never have been on the radar of anybody, right? Not to

00:04:28   dismiss what you're doing, but in the old days, maybe you would have gotten a job at CBS Radio

00:04:33   or something. But if you didn't, and you were just kind of toiling away at your stuff, then

00:04:39   you wouldn't have this like kind of tailored made kind of fan base. And I think that there's a

00:04:47   built in misunderstanding of how celebrities can be treated. Right. And then I was saying to Jackie,

00:04:55   that actually opened my eyes a little bit to the fact that, oh, you know, even the real celebrity,

00:04:59   I'm as guilty of it as anybody. I'd say like, "Oh, I'm sure Madonna can take some ribbing

00:05:04   or something." But you kind of step back and say, "Hey," you look at what famous people

00:05:09   we know, quote unquote, "famous people," all the way up to really famous people. And you

00:05:14   say, "You know that John, think in your mind of the most famous, the most legitimately

00:05:21   famous person that you know well enough to make this judgment about and say, 'Doesn't

00:05:26   that person actually get their feelings kind of hurt when somebody is a total jackass to them?

00:05:33   And I think it's true. I think some of us may be hardened to it more than others. But

00:05:40   I was saying to Jackie, "I bet there's some part of Barack Obama who's like,

00:05:45   'Goddamn it. That's not fair.'"

00:05:52   Anyway, that's something that I think people need to catch up to this. Hopefully, it'll help lead

00:05:58   people to understand that. A lot of what I think people view as when they're judging Marco or

00:06:05   judging you, judging me, judging anybody on our behavior and how we handle criticism or whatever,

00:06:13   is it's failing to acknowledge that it's kind of an unusual circumstance having that much

00:06:19   feedback and having that much exposure to people, right?

00:06:24   Yeah, and I almost feel like we don't have a good word for it because I,

00:06:27   you know, I'm not a celebrity. Celebrity is clearly the wrong word,

00:06:30   but there are way more people who know me than I could possibly know,

00:06:35   and that is something, and that's not

00:06:40   natural, right? Like for thousands of generations of human development,

00:06:47   And the people who knew you and the people who you know was pretty much one to one.

00:06:51   Maybe you were the tribal leader and slightly more people knew you than you knew, but you

00:06:58   still saw their faces.

00:06:59   You know?

00:07:00   Right.

00:07:01   You were still the tribal leader to what at most cases hundreds or a thousand people.

00:07:07   Right.

00:07:08   But probably not.

00:07:09   You know what I mean?

00:07:10   I still think that was the exception.

00:07:11   And that's really closer to if you were like a king or something like that.

00:07:15   It's closer to what the regular meaning of celebrity is.

00:07:20   - Yeah, it's a relationship disparity.

00:07:25   It's what you have.

00:07:26   - Speaking of well-known people, I should say who you are.

00:07:28   Everybody always complains,

00:07:29   'cause I like to start the show with a cold opening.

00:07:32   But people may not know.

00:07:33   And here's the thing.

00:07:34   See, I always assume too that people look at the show.

00:07:38   This is the thing.

00:07:39   Let's go a little meta on podcasting.

00:07:41   I assume that with the talk show

00:07:43   when a new episode comes in, whatever app you're using to listen to it, you at least

00:07:47   like look at it and I always put the guest name like first, it's a special guest, Daniel

00:07:52   Jalkett joins John Gruber for blah, blah, blah. But I put the guest name right at the

00:07:58   beginning of the description every time so that you can see, oh, here's who's on the

00:08:03   talk show this week. But a lot of people I think apparently because I get email, people

00:08:08   will email me and they'll say, "I just listened to your show and it was great. I don't know

00:08:12   is on your show.

00:08:13   I got Daniel Jowkett.

00:08:14   I don't know.

00:08:15   How is it, Daniel, that you've never even been on the show?

00:08:20   I don't know what it is.

00:08:22   It's a relationship disparity.

00:08:23   That's what I call it.

00:08:24   It's my fault because you can't ask to be on.

00:08:26   I have to ask you, but I don't know why I've never had you on before.

00:08:30   It happens.

00:08:32   It's great to finally be here.

00:08:33   I mean, I have been a booster for your show, so I'm very happy to see you're still doing

00:08:40   it.

00:08:41   And I was, for what it's worth, not among the hot-headed, frazzled masses when you decided

00:08:48   to move over to Mule Radio. I think you're doing a great job there. This is working.

00:08:55   Dave: Well, you know what? And the bottom line is, I like this show better. It's doing

00:09:02   well. It's clearly not—it hasn't made everybody happy, but you can't do that.

00:09:11   But I feel like if you're not doing a show that you like, or whatever, if you're making

00:09:16   apps, if you're making anything, if you're not making something that you yourself like,

00:09:21   you're going to be miserable.

00:09:23   I don't know.

00:09:24   I can't imagine how anybody would be able to work on something.

00:09:26   If they don't like the thing that they're working on, they're going to be miserable.

00:09:30   You're getting back at – not to harp on this, but you're getting back at that whole

00:09:33   judging successful people thing, where there is a huge amount of expectation for continued service

00:09:45   to some previously presumed promise. For example, just to harp on the Marco situation a little bit,

00:09:53   There are some people out there who undoubtedly feel that Marco's commitment must be, should

00:10:03   have remained and should remain until he dies or until computers are obsolete to work on

00:10:10   Instapaper, let's say.

00:10:15   For example, I don't anticipate you giving up Daring Fireball and starting a new blog,

00:10:21   But if you did merely changing, just merely ditching Daring Fireball and starting a new

00:10:28   blog, let's say for whatever reason you decided it's not making you happy.

00:10:34   So looking at that blog, looking at the articles that come out of it, you're unhappy, you

00:10:39   decide this is for me, I'm going to start a new blog.

00:10:43   People should be happy for you at that point, but they wouldn't be.

00:10:45   They would be saying, "You killed Daring Fireball."

00:10:49   Well, it would be a vocal minority though.

00:10:52   One thing I have found over the years and clearly during fireball has become very successful

00:10:57   and I do get a lot of email from readers and stuff like that.

00:11:01   Most of them are just terrific.

00:11:04   Really, I mean, it's just amazing.

00:11:07   I do feel like it's like the polar opposite of having comments on a blog.

00:11:17   I've not had comments the whole time.

00:11:19   People who are late to daring fireball often think that maybe I've turned off comments

00:11:25   because the audience is so big and it turned bad.

00:11:29   But I didn't have them and didn't want them when I had literally, like in 2002 when I

00:11:35   got started, like 100 page views a day and 60 unique visitors.

00:11:42   I didn't have them then either.

00:11:44   I mean, I didn't want them.

00:11:45   But I think everybody knows that if you do have comments, for better or for worse, a

00:11:51   lot of them, a very significant proportion of them, are from jackasses.

00:11:56   Whereas…

00:11:58   And I think, see, I think the reason is that the jackasses who like to make jackass comments

00:12:03   on a weblog do it because they know the thing is going to be public.

00:12:08   You know, it's a sort of "look at me" anonymously.

00:12:11   It's this "I'm anonymous.

00:12:13   I can be a jackass and get away with it urge that certain personalities have.

00:12:19   Whereas if it's all private, they get nothing out of it.

00:12:22   So I don't get – I get very, very, very, very little.

00:12:25   I mean like a handful of year emails that I would consider the equivalent of comment

00:12:33   jackassery.

00:12:35   I get lots of emails from people who disagree with me.

00:12:38   I get lots of emails from people who just want to say that they agree with me and that

00:12:42   really like the site. But all of it is great. I mean, almost all of it is just super, super

00:12:47   respectful, especially the stuff from people who disagree with me. And I like those emails

00:12:51   even better than the ones that agree with me because it gives me more to think about.

00:12:56   But it's by email and by--and even--and the other thing too is on Twitter, I think that

00:13:02   the people, you know, who @reply me based on Daring Fireball content are great, but

00:13:08   it's because their name is on their Twitter account.

00:13:10   Right. Yeah, there's something to that. And what you said, you know, that the vast majority of

00:13:16   comments are like, you know, jerks or whatever. That is something that becomes more true as the

00:13:24   popularity scales for the site. So if you did have, if you had happened to turn on comments on

00:13:28   day one, I bet you would have had close to 100% thoughtful, meaningful comments. But then you

00:13:36   but then you would have had to suffer that gradual decline as people

00:13:40   it's like it's like uh...

00:13:41   it's like the if there was like uh... bridge overpass that nobody

00:13:46   saw there would be there be no graffiti on it right

00:13:49   but then like if they put it

00:13:50   by path under it

00:13:53   there'd be a ton of graffiti up there because it's not good

00:13:55   interesting target now

00:13:57   but uh...

00:13:59   you know it's funny as i've i've you know me i kinda get like my high horse

00:14:03   on some issues.

00:14:04   Oh, not you, Daniel.

00:14:05   That's probably why you've never been on my show before.

00:14:12   The first and last appearance on the talk show.

00:14:14   So let me get on my high horse.

00:14:16   Nobody has a higher horse than Daniel Johnson.

00:14:18   I have a very high horse.

00:14:19   I have a specialized staircase to get up on my high horse.

00:14:25   I've been the guy who defends comments on a philosophical level.

00:14:33   I've been like, "Oh, well, I owe everything to my comments because when I started Red

00:14:38   Sweater Blog, I had no readers."

00:14:40   It's like you're saying, Jon, a hundred readers maybe.

00:14:45   It took me a while to get a hundred readers.

00:14:47   I did have comments and I thought that it helped me to grow that small community.

00:14:51   I think that's true for a lot of people, but I did face this question when I started my

00:14:57   new blog, the BitSplitting blog, and I have to confess, I mean, I didn't make a big deal

00:15:03   out of it, but there's no comments on that blog.

00:15:06   I just kind of said, "You know what?

00:15:08   I'd give this a try."

00:15:11   So you can chalk that up to getting off my high horse, I guess.

00:15:17   You put that one down in the books.

00:15:19   Don't you think though that the rise of Twitter and the establishment of Twitter,

00:15:26   because Twitter came out in 2006 and really exploded in 2007, 2008 among our crowd.

00:15:34   By now it's so old that it's hard to imagine.

00:15:39   It's gotten to the point you can't imagine what life was like without it.

00:15:42   And it really does help though.

00:15:43   It's not the same as comments on your site.

00:15:46   It's not the same, but it's an interesting middle ground

00:15:49   because they're public and because you can safely assume

00:15:54   that anybody who might want a Twitter account has one.

00:15:59   - You're right.

00:16:00   Yeah, and I think that helps.

00:16:02   Maybe what you were getting at is it made it easier

00:16:05   for me to make that decision or to know

00:16:08   that I have a connection with people

00:16:09   who want to have a connection.

00:16:11   And it is valuable for it to be public.

00:16:14   I mean, I welcome email comments,

00:16:16   but there is, like you said, something to the public comments

00:16:20   being kind of on the record, and it helps the discourse,

00:16:24   I think, on both sides when it's working correctly.

00:16:27   - Yeah, but it definitely is discourse, you know?

00:16:30   And I think it definitely, you know, I mean,

00:16:32   I read almost all my, I mean, I can't keep up with my email,

00:16:39   but I can, I don't know, I think keeping up

00:16:41   with my Twitter is easy.

00:16:44   I think it's one of the greatest things.

00:16:47   And I think it's really helped make Darren Fireball a better site.

00:16:49   I really do.

00:16:50   So, yeah.

00:16:51   I really do.

00:16:52   But in a way that comments would not have.

00:16:57   Well, it's like the email.

00:16:59   So it's similar to the comparison to email in that it's the sort of predictable format

00:17:06   of Twitter feedback.

00:17:08   The reason you can stay caught up on Twitter messages is because you kind of know how to

00:17:13   parse each one. And you get an email and it's like three paragraphs long. You're like, "Oh,

00:17:18   God. What's in the first paragraph?"

00:17:22   I've read this and it's—I mean, I've read this. I've thought about this. And it's part

00:17:31   of the genius of Twitter. And I truly mean it. And it's in that sense of nobody gives

00:17:37   it the credit it deserves because it's so obvious, but it's only obvious in hindsight,

00:17:44   is that the forced brevity of Twitter means that you don't have to open messages to read

00:17:51   them because the thing you see in the list of tweets is the tweet because it's so short

00:17:59   you don't have to have a separate open mode versus what it is that's in the list.

00:18:06   It fits with the way that our minds are hooked up to read because you just scroll.

00:18:17   You just scroll through the thing and you see it all and read.

00:18:21   If you're a fast reader, you can really get through them quickly in a way that if your

00:18:28   Twitter client were set up like an email client, which would be the stupidest idea for a Twitter

00:18:32   app at all. But if it just showed, I don't know, you know, something like the equivalent

00:18:35   of a subject and you had to like just arrow through them one at a time to actually read

00:18:40   the tweets, I'd never be able to keep up. It's the fact that I can use my eyeballs rather

00:18:46   than anything else to keep up with them all. All I have to do is look at them to read them.

00:18:52   It's genius.

00:18:53   Right. Yeah, I agree. And speaking of my high horse, that's one of the many reasons that

00:18:57   I'm just passionately against these services like Tweet Longer or whatever.

00:19:09   To me, the acceptable transgression is a multi-tweet thought, ideally limited to two tweets.

00:19:20   Because then after that, it's like, "Okay, you should be writing a blog post or something."

00:19:23   But at least then it still has that characteristic.

00:19:27   And ideally if it's like too in rapid succession, then even for you or anybody else skimming

00:19:34   it, you still sort of read it completely visible as a contiguous thing.

00:19:39   But if you make somebody go on a read a link to read the rest of your Twitter thought,

00:19:44   that's just like...

00:19:45   Dave: Every time I see something like that, it makes me...

00:19:48   I get 50% of the way to unfollowing the person.

00:19:51   Yeah, exactly. It's much more so than... So yeah, back to the point of being able to skim

00:19:57   it and being able to process it, much more than maybe somebody you're following having

00:20:02   half of what they say be stuff you're not interested in. You can skim that.

00:20:09   And there's other genius things that have come about, like the evolution of Twitter,

00:20:13   where image attachments, which are really just URLs in the tweet, because the tweet

00:20:18   really just text. But putting the thumbnail of them in the tweet, it's great. It's such

00:20:26   a great, it's, you know, it sounds stupid. And again, it seems so obvious in hindsight.

00:20:30   But when when clients first started doing that, it felt a little wrong because it felt

00:20:34   like tweets were supposed to be just text. But in, you know, clearly, it's the right

00:20:38   thing to do.

00:20:39   Jared Ranere: Yeah, and that's that that's, you know, extended in the whole Twitter cards

00:20:43   thing, which I think, when it works, well, it works really well. Like another example

00:20:48   of that is App Store links.

00:20:50   Someone gives you this inscrutable App Store URL,

00:20:55   and then before you would just be like,

00:20:58   well, do I wanna click this thing?

00:20:59   Or now it just shows up, I think,

00:21:00   at least on the clients I use,

00:21:02   it shows up as a little thumbnail of the app.

00:21:05   And it's like, you can see that as kind of like a way

00:21:07   of Twitter and other companies moving in

00:21:12   on the style and formatting of people's tweets.

00:21:14   But when it's like, when it's kind of like,

00:21:16   when you take the step to go,

00:21:19   when you take the step of putting a URL in the content,

00:21:23   then I think you're kind of like inviting anybody

00:21:27   who can make that more digestible to readers.

00:21:30   It's like, go ahead, go for it.

00:21:32   Make that more digestible for my readers.

00:21:34   - I agree.

00:21:36   All right, let me take a break.

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00:25:14   thing but it's got to be can't use Twitter because it's internal you got to

00:25:18   keep it internal igloo can give it to you so check them out here's where you

00:25:21   go igloo software comm slash the talk show igloo just like you know the house

00:25:28   the Eskimos 11 igloo software.com slash the talk show and they'll know you came

00:25:33   from the show and my thanks to them for for being the first sponsor so let's

00:25:41   talk about the stuff that you're working on now alright let me make sure that

00:25:44   I've got it all straight because it's it's it's a big list so you've got red

00:25:48   sweater software correct now that's Mars edit you've got the what's the crossword

00:25:55   up black ink yeah black ink famous famous among nerds fast scripts for yeah

00:26:03   fast I've got fast scripts that's it that's sort of overlooked because it is

00:26:07   that paid is there a free version and a paid version or is it just free yeah

00:26:12   it's free and then you pay if you want to have more than ten keyboard shortcuts

00:26:15   so that's the that's the sort of cut off there hmm but none of that stuff is

00:26:21   really the all that stuff that's not Mars Edit is like backup plans sort of

00:26:28   you know like I don't know it's um it's not making it's not paying for my it's

00:26:32   not paying for my kids education or anything all right so that's red sweater

00:26:36   software yeah and then you've got core intuition which is a podcast you've been

00:26:40   doing with a friend of the show manton reese since I don't know at least I

00:26:45   I don't know forever five years as of when as of this past Wednesday

00:26:49   But it's is it's is it?

00:26:52   Semi-regular, it's like whenever you guys feel like it or do you guys have a schedule? Yeah?

00:26:57   We're on a strict fairly strict once a week schedule now

00:27:00   Thanks to actually you know speaking of sponsors

00:27:04   Thanks to finally just like biting the bullet and taking sponsors

00:27:07   and that was kind of a wake-up call for me because I think I've been like gradually coming out of

00:27:15   growing up on use net

00:27:17   You know the late 80s early 90s thinking of the internet as a

00:27:23   Non-commercial space obviously, I do all my commerce on the internet

00:27:28   I've grown I've grown past that but there's been this kind of block for me for years

00:27:32   Like you don't you know, you don't put ads on things or something like that

00:27:35   Well, I was wrong about that but add that to my list of things. I was wrong about John your high horse

00:27:40   Yeah, take that off my high horse. My high horse is load is getting lighter

00:27:44   But it's been great for us to have sponsors not just because you know gives us a little money to keep the you know

00:27:51   The momentum going but it's also a kind of a vote of confidence for the show. So yeah, that's true. That is true

00:27:58   Now you've also got now this is the thing that's relatively recent is you started a new

00:28:04   Blog and now it's a podcast to under the bit splitting

00:28:09   Brand bit that's witting org. I guess that's the home of both really

00:28:14   Yeah, it's splitting org and then I just tucked podcast into slash podcast

00:28:19   That all came about because you know as you remember John over the years I've been blogging from

00:28:26   red sweater blog my company's blog and

00:28:29   Being up on my high horse and doing all my ranting

00:28:33   it always felt a little uncomfortable to me to have that share space with

00:28:38   with what is supposedly like a somewhat

00:28:43   issue-neutral software company.

00:28:47   It was kind of a mixed blessing, 'cause it was great.

00:28:53   When I would blog about something and it got some attention

00:28:55   and people were linking it around,

00:28:58   then I think there was a non-negligible benefit

00:29:03   to the company, to my income,

00:29:05   because I wasn't charging for anything on my blog,

00:29:08   I wasn't having ads on my blog,

00:29:10   but people would go there, they'd say,

00:29:13   "Oh, you got products, I'm gonna buy your product."

00:29:15   It helped, but there was always this nagging feeling

00:29:20   either that I shouldn't blog about something,

00:29:22   I shouldn't rant against Apple, I shouldn't complain about,

00:29:29   the most obvious types of things is you shouldn't complain

00:29:32   about customer behavior or something.

00:29:35   Yeah, it's a delicate balance. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Especially

00:29:40   – and I think for you personally, your personality in particular, I mean, as I've said several

00:29:46   times, you like to get up on a high horse once in a while. And that's a little bit

00:29:50   more – it's a precarious spot when you want to – I mean, it doesn't even have

00:29:59   to be politics. I mean, in some sense, it's all politics. It's not necessarily national

00:30:04   fair politics, but talking about the App Store is political in a sense.

00:30:08   Yes, in like the classic sense.

00:30:10   Right.

00:30:11   But you want to separate that from your software business.

00:30:15   Yeah, and then like lots of things that just didn't – trying to take a step back and

00:30:21   say not only like is this appropriate for say the Red Sweater blog, but as the company

00:30:30   company being just me. But nonetheless, as the company gets more popular and has a wider

00:30:35   reach and more people have heard about it, they go to the site and they download the

00:30:39   products and they think, "Oh, I should maybe keep up with what this company is doing."

00:30:43   Look at the blog and see like, "Well, this is what Nokia is doing wrong." What the heck

00:30:49   does that have to do with anything?

00:30:51   Right. Even if it's not about avoiding touchy subjects, it's that you somehow feel like

00:30:58   the red sweater blog really ought to be on topic for users of red sweater software. And

00:31:05   anything that's not really on topic for the users or would be users of the software is

00:31:12   potentially a distraction.

00:31:14   Yeah, and then the reverse is true as well as I was lucky enough to start gaining this

00:31:19   readership of people who are kind of maybe not even interested in the products but interested

00:31:24   what I have to say, I started feeling like, "Oh, they're not going to like this update

00:31:31   about fast scripts."

00:31:35   It dis-serves both audiences.

00:31:37   Not to have a distinction between the two dis-serves the customers who just want to

00:31:41   keep up to date with company news or company-related stuff and the people who stumbled in out of

00:31:48   the tech, greater tech world and wanted to keep up on my rants and perspectives.

00:31:55   So I'm pretty happy with the way it's worked out so far.

00:31:58   I kind of just did a soft launch of Bitsplitting, the blog, several months ago now, I guess.

00:32:07   Another part of this is I'm not really sure how much I want to blog, but it's really great

00:32:11   to have an outlet at that moment where you're like, "Oh yeah, I have something to do."

00:32:18   say and alluding back to the Twitter thing, when it doesn't fit in one tweet or maybe

00:32:24   at most two tweets, that's when you really need some outlet.

00:32:29   I think you mostly do everything through Daring Fireball, but I know you also have a Tumblr.

00:32:36   There must be some occasions when you're like, "This doesn't really work for..."

00:32:43   I guess with Tumblr in particular, it's probably your outlet.

00:32:46   You don't usually put photos up during Fireball, but anybody who has known you or even followed

00:32:57   your work knows that that's not because you don't like photos.

00:32:59   I haven't posted to my Tumblr since November 2009.

00:33:05   I guess that dates me.

00:33:07   I've been waiting patiently, Jon.

00:33:10   I think there's only three posts on it.

00:33:14   Maybe I filed that away.

00:33:16   Although I did have the one I did have the other one that fraidy cats one

00:33:19   Where it was I was just posting links to politicians who were?

00:33:26   Endorsing policies that to me implied that they were afraid of terrorists. You know, right?

00:33:32   fraidy cats

00:33:34   I think that that tumblr.com but I haven't updated that one and that's and that's an example of something that you wouldn't shy away from

00:33:41   on a like occasional basis on daring fireball

00:33:45   But you still kind of probably probably acknowledge that that's not it's not something you want a whole, you know

00:33:50   You don't want to like clog up the Daring Fireball with that. So that's probably what led to something like that

00:33:55   But you know in 2008 I did I did I went pretty strong on

00:33:59   anti

00:34:01   Sour Palin in

00:34:06   2008 yeah

00:34:08   By far and away if you look back if you like graft every post to Daring Fireball

00:34:12   all for the last 10 years and which ones were political. That there was this concentration

00:34:20   in 2008 in a run-up. But I don't regret it at all. And I would explain to people at the

00:34:25   time that I seriously thought that this was dangerous literally to the world. This was

00:34:33   a mentally unbalanced and unfit person who was possibly going to be very close to being

00:34:39   the leader of the free world. And I don't regret it at all. And I think in the years

00:34:44   since it's been proven right that the woman is like a nut job.

00:34:49   Yeah. I know what you mean. There's something to it almost being like a national emergency.

00:34:57   And I guess as you say, it's totally hyperbolic to say it.

00:35:03   And there are some people who are so – they're hooked up wrong and they can't see it because

00:35:08   you know, and I would like to think, I really would, I think I would, that if the Democratic

00:35:15   Party, which I more closely associate with politically, nominated for Vice President,

00:35:21   someone of equivalent mental stability and ability, that I would recognize it and think,

00:35:30   well, this is nuts, and even though I disagree with the other party, I've got to vote for

00:35:34   and endorse the other party because I, you know, far more important than whether I agree

00:35:38   with the person is whether the person is dangerous in that job.

00:35:43   You can't, I mean, you can't have a maniac as, you know, freaking vice president.

00:35:47   But, you know, and, you know, it's just the fact though that I was tweeting or posting

00:35:53   political stuff, you know, and it wasn't like I filled up the site with it, but, you

00:35:57   know.

00:35:58   I'd point the stuff out, you know, like when it came out that she, you know, didn't

00:36:04   read newspapers, couldn't name a magazine that she reads. You know what I mean? I pointed

00:36:08   out, like, listen, this is the truth. This is a person who doesn't even read magazines

00:36:12   or newspapers.

00:36:13   That's what we need in America, John. A fresh tape.

00:36:17   Some people went nuts on that, but I think most people understood. Every once in a while,

00:36:24   I get something that's seemingly off-topic, but it's not. What Darren Farbawl is, is what

00:36:28   I'm interested in.

00:36:29   Right, it happens to be a personal interests blog that slants heavily towards computers

00:36:36   because you're so dang interested in them.

00:36:39   Right, it's so slanted towards computers and Apple stuff, not because I keep it on focus,

00:36:44   it's because I'm so warped that that's what I think about all the time.

00:36:50   It's a disservice to the film and sports and politics that since computer interests have

00:36:59   dominated.

00:37:02   So I think it's possibly just a sign of just how bad I am at doing more than one thing

00:37:09   at a time.

00:37:10   But it seems to me like you've bitten off a lot, and no pun intended with bit-splitting,

00:37:17   but with a new blog and a podcast for the blog, which has really been great.

00:37:22   I mean, and you've really had some great guests recently.

00:37:25   Thank you.

00:37:27   I mean Jackie Chang is great.

00:37:29   I don't know.

00:37:30   I got to get her on the talk show.

00:37:32   Amanda Wickstead, great, great programmer.

00:37:37   She's like one of the first programmers who like I loved being able to...

00:37:42   Because Jonas, my son, he loves Pac-Man and she did the Pac-Man port for iPhone, which

00:37:47   is like the only Pac-Man Jonas knew until we finally found an arcade somewhere where

00:37:52   he could play the real thing.

00:37:53   But I was like, "I know the woman who put this on the iPhone."

00:37:58   And he was like, "Really?"

00:37:59   And I was like, "Yeah."

00:38:00   And he was like, "Wow."

00:38:01   And then he actually seemed to think I have a decent job.

00:38:03   Right.

00:38:04   Jonas Gruber finally learns that you actually know some real celebrities.

00:38:10   Right.

00:38:11   The woman who made Pac-Man for iPhone.

00:38:14   But it's a great show, and you're doing good.

00:38:16   But then you've got the Manton thing, and you're still running Red Sweater Software,

00:38:21   which I presume is really your main line of thinking.

00:38:26   - Yeah, it's a little bit of a,

00:38:29   it's probably a little bit of a folly

00:38:32   to take on all these things, to be honest.

00:38:34   But I don't know,

00:38:38   there's a certain freedom and recklessness

00:38:43   of true independence that can lead to this.

00:38:48   And I kind of say to my wife about, for instance, the BitSplitting podcast.

00:38:54   That's a lot of work.

00:38:56   And we always just joke that maybe it'll be like a British TV series, right?

00:39:03   Where it's like, well, it ran for 22 episodes and then it never aired again.

00:39:08   And it's kind of like the knowledge that that could happen is sort of what keeps me a little

00:39:13   bit sane on that front.

00:39:14   But Marco and Sir Kusa and Casey Liss had that idea with their car podcast, where they

00:39:22   started a car podcast explicitly up front where they said, "We think we're going to

00:39:27   do this for like five or six episodes because we think we've got like five or six episodes

00:39:32   of Car Talk to talk about."

00:39:35   But that's an interesting idea to me because if you come into it up front with the idea

00:39:42   that it's going to be a miniseries rather than an open-ended do this forever thing,

00:39:49   it frees you to do things that you feel like you don't really have infinite content for.

00:39:58   I feel like a lot of things on the internet feel like you shouldn't, at least I do, I

00:40:05   feel like you shouldn't start it if you're not going to keep up with it.

00:40:09   Yes, and I think that's the nagging fear part of it.

00:40:14   I actually started, I actually committed to doing the podcast and I was really foolish

00:40:19   when I started.

00:40:20   I was thinking I'm going to do it weekly.

00:40:22   And you know how that is doing this show.

00:40:24   It's like a week goes by very quickly.

00:40:27   It doesn't, and again, I have a great job and it's fantastic, but it is true.

00:40:35   It sounds like upfront a week, doing a podcast once a week is not that big a deal, but it

00:40:39   seems like, again, lately I've been recording on Fridays. We're recording this on Friday,

00:40:44   the 31st of May. And it just seems like when it comes to the podcast, it's like, "Well,

00:40:49   it's Friday. It's time to do the show." And then the next week rolls around and it's Monday

00:40:54   and I feel like, "Well, the podcast is at the end of the week. I can work on all this

00:40:57   other stuff." And then I close my eyes and next thing I know, it's Thursday night and

00:41:01   I got to figure out who the hell I'm going to ask to be on the show. And I can't believe

00:41:07   It feels like I just recorded the show with Merlin yesterday.

00:41:10   Right.

00:41:11   It catches up with you fast.

00:41:12   And I also have antagonists, friendly antagonists, like our friend Gus Mueller from Fly Meat,

00:41:18   who has been just hitting the ball out of the park lately with his Acorn 4 launch.

00:41:25   He's in this group of so-called indie Mac developers like me, who are more or less just

00:41:31   one-person companies trying to take a crack at it.

00:41:35   And we've been sort of like, for years now, we've been sort of motivating each other,

00:41:43   kind of comparing notes, like, "What are you going to do next?"

00:41:46   Trying to keep each other going in the direction.

00:41:49   And he has just been on my case lately about two things—not shipping and "Why the hell

00:41:57   am I doing all these podcasts?"

00:41:59   So he has some wisdom there, I think.

00:42:01   on the flip side, it's like one of the reasons I'm doing the podcasts is I have this freedom.

00:42:08   I can do this. It's like, I said when I announced that I was starting the BitSplitting podcast,

00:42:14   I'm like, I'm a fan of Terry Gross for 15 years or whatever. I've been listening.

00:42:20   If you would have asked me 15 years ago, what are the odds of you, Daniel Jalka, doing a show someday

00:42:29   vaguely comparable to a Terry Gross interview show. And I said, "That's impossible. I'm

00:42:36   a computer programmer. I work at Apple. I have no broadcasting experience. I have no

00:42:43   FCC license. I'm not going to go study the FCC license rules, and I'm not going to go

00:42:50   do an internship at the college radio station so that I can get the FCC license, so that

00:42:56   I can start the local interview show so that I could eventually work my way up to having

00:43:01   anything like a Terry Gross interview show.

00:43:03   Right.

00:43:04   Part of it, part of the reason we're doing it, I mean, it's truth.

00:43:07   And you know, Mule definitely helps me because they handle the editing and the hosting and

00:43:13   stuff like that.

00:43:14   So it's a lot of the busy work is off my shoulders so that I can put more time in Daring Fireball

00:43:20   and less time on the infrastructure of this show.

00:43:26   I don't know why for whatever reason I don't mind I would mind doing all of that for the podcast

00:43:31   But I don't mind the fact that I am literally the only person who works on daring fireball

00:43:36   And so when there are like hosting problems or something like that that it's on my shoulders

00:43:41   I don't mind that for some reason, but I couldn't handle - I don't know

00:43:45   Well, like I was saying I definitely appreciate the that Manton does the the most most of the technical work on

00:43:53   core intuition. I do some of the, you know, also kind of annoying work like some of the sponsor booking and

00:44:01   invoicing and junk like that. It all adds up and at the end of the day, I sometimes do say, "Wait a minute,

00:44:06   I spent like

00:44:07   hours today in

00:44:09   doing this stuff that's not really my quote-unquote job."

00:44:14   But, like, just getting back to that though, this is,

00:44:19   This is a luxury that you can also just kind of enjoy and say well, you know, it's not my so-called job, but

00:44:25   While I have I'm afforded this opportunity, you know being on Twitter all day long. It's not really my job either but

00:44:33   It's kind of fun and it it opens up it opens up opportunities

00:44:39   You didn't know would be there a lot of this though

00:44:41   it really is you know and I think we it's easy to overlook it as the years go on and we get more and more used

00:44:47   to just assuming that the internet exists, but it's in a lowercase L libertarian sense,

00:44:54   the internet really does show, it proves a lot of libertarian principles that the fact

00:45:04   that you don't need an FCC license to launch a podcast, you just need a web server that

00:45:10   can serve MP3 and AAC audio files and an RSS feed that you can put the things into.

00:45:19   You really don't need to do much to get it started.

00:45:23   You really just need to do the work of actually recording shows and you can have a show.

00:45:28   It's led to a fantastic world where you can find stuff that is of niche interest to you

00:45:38   as a listener and just fill up your hours with as much of it as you want.

00:45:42   But I wouldn't have this show. I mean, this show is financially successful. I mean, we really had

00:45:52   great, great sponsors. I'll probably interrupt in a minute and tell you about another one. But

00:45:56   I wouldn't do it if I had to go through, jump through hoops like you would in the days before

00:46:05   the internet to do a show. I mean, I don't even know how I would go about it. I don't

00:46:08   I don't even know how radio, you'd have to have a radio station.

00:46:11   I don't know who would hire me.

00:46:12   I mean, it wouldn't happen.

00:46:13   Well, and you know, the related interesting thing is that no matter what your kind of

00:46:19   like pursuit is, if it involves getting your message or your content out to people, you

00:46:25   no longer have the excuse or the sort of like approval metric of like being quote unquote

00:46:35   being having your show bought by ABC, having your book published by Penguin.

00:46:42   And that's kind of like, that's that like, yeah, it's the libertarian, you know, like

00:46:47   you said, lowercase L libertarianism, where there's no authority making the

00:46:52   call. But then, of course, it's all on us as individuals who decide that one day,

00:46:58   like, yeah, I could do a radio show. We don't have to work our way through any

00:47:02   ranks to do that, which is kind of terrifying too, because it's like, for

00:47:09   instance, I could write the so-called Great American Novel and get it out to

00:47:14   thousands of people, and it could be a really terrible idea. But that is

00:47:21   that is the that's the new way, I think. So we have to just give things a try and

00:47:25   hope that you're on the right track. Yeah, totally. All right, let me tell you about

00:47:29   about our second sponsor and this is great. It's Pocket Informant and it's from a company

00:47:37   called Web IS and it's a full featured planner that lets you manage your events, tasks, notes

00:47:43   and contacts all in one place. Think about pre-iPhone, pre-PDAs. Remember when everybody

00:47:51   when you carry around those like a Franklin Covey planner type thing, you know, a little

00:47:56   notebook that had calendar pages and note pages and a Rolodex type contact thing. It's

00:48:02   the digital version of that in one app. And so instead of having a separate calendar app

00:48:07   and a to-do app and a notes app or something like that, it is the equivalent of all that

00:48:12   in one app. And they just come out with version 3.0. I've been beta testing it and it's really,

00:48:19   really polished and impressive. It's a really impressive app.

00:48:27   I think the best part about it is the way that it lets you see everything at once. If

00:48:34   you've got a lot going on, you've got a lot of to-dos, you've got a lot of stuff on your

00:48:38   calendar and stuff like that, and you just want to see what the hell is going on the

00:48:41   next day or two, this app gives you the view for that. It's really, really interesting.

00:48:48   It also, now this is an iPhone app, integrates with the calendar and reminders on your phone.

00:48:56   It syncs with Google calendars and tasks.

00:48:59   It also optionally, if you want, syncs with Toodle-Do, it syncs with Evernote.

00:49:05   All of your events and tasks can be shown together on the same calendar or you can filter

00:49:09   down just to what you want to focus on.

00:49:11   So if you just want to see your notes, you can just see your notes.

00:49:14   If you just want to see to do little checkbox things, you can just, the little tab right

00:49:19   at the bottom, one tab, you'll filter down just to that.

00:49:23   Search searches everything.

00:49:24   So if you're looking for a thing and you know that has something to do with Jalkit, well,

00:49:27   there's not going to be a lot of matches for that.

00:49:29   Just hit search Jalkit and it's going to show just the things involving Daniel Jalkit.

00:49:35   I assume everybody out there has at least a few tasks related to you.

00:49:38   It sure feels like it these days.

00:49:41   Yeah.

00:49:42   for half the people out there probably gonna be on your podcast.

00:49:45   They've got smart task filters.

00:49:49   And now this is an interesting thing.

00:49:51   It lets you create custom groupings of tasks that you'd like to see.

00:49:55   So you can have this big pile of everything that you ever want to do.

00:49:58   And this is a big list.

00:49:59   But with these smart filters, you can filter them down to these little sub lists

00:50:04   to focus on the ones that are related together.

00:50:07   You have a today view so you can just look at the stuff you want to do today.

00:50:12   Natural language entry so you can just type in "meat bob for coffee" every Friday at 6 and the right thing happens.

00:50:21   It creates, you type that and it creates a recurring task on your calendars at 6 p.m. that says, you know, "meat bob for coffee".

00:50:30   Every day it'll just show up.

00:50:32   They've got rich text formatting, which on iOS, I mean, you know this, it's like I don't

00:50:38   even know how they pulled that off.

00:50:40   So you can set your own fonts, you can set colors, really, really well done.

00:50:46   Even just little touches.

00:50:47   This is the thing that really shows that it's a 3.0, is that they've got weather integrated

00:50:53   and it's a great, the weather stuff is great.

00:50:55   You just look at today and it just gives you the weather.

00:50:57   And if you want more information, you can expand that and get more weather.

00:51:01   sorts of stuff. It's really, really great. Check it out. Now here's where you go. Pocket

00:51:06   informant.com slash talk show pocket informant.com slash the talk show. Version 3.0 is brand

00:51:16   new. So if you've ever looked at it before, you want to look at it again. And iPad version,

00:51:24   of course, they've got it because I'm telling you, it's version 3.0. They've really got

00:51:27   their act together. And the iPad version really, really, to me, gives you that same sort of

00:51:33   overview that you could get from the old days of using those physical desk planners because

00:51:38   you can see so much. So go check it out. My thanks to Pocket Informant for sponsoring

00:51:44   the show.

00:51:50   So back to your stuff.

00:51:53   So here's a question for you as the guy who writes Mars Edit, which you didn't start.

00:52:01   That was a Brent Simmons app.

00:52:04   You took over it, bought it from Brent.

00:52:08   How long have you been doing Mars Edit way longer now than Brent did Mars Edit?

00:52:12   Yeah.

00:52:13   It's been six years, I think, almost.

00:52:18   Maybe six years.

00:52:19   track but yes there was a point in which I surpassed I think Brent maybe started

00:52:24   in 2002 2003 and then I took it over in 2007 I believe so that's in a while I

00:52:35   it's just funny I don't because it came out and I used it immediately I don't

00:52:42   remember how I posted to during fireball before Mars at it from my Mac I guess I

00:52:48   I used the web interface to moveable type.

00:52:52   I can't, 'cause it must, I guess.

00:52:55   - Maybe write in BB Edit and copy and paste?

00:52:57   - Yeah, I guess that's what I did,

00:52:58   is I'd write in BB Edit and then paste it

00:53:00   into the text fields of moveable type.

00:53:05   - It doesn't seem likely you would have,

00:53:07   I mean, 'cause let's be fair,

00:53:09   the editing interfaces on these web-hosted blogs

00:53:12   have gotten a lot better, but that long ago,

00:53:15   I can't imagine you composing like a Fireball-length essay.

00:53:20   - Well, the other thing too is that Mars had it,

00:53:23   'cause if it came out in 2003,

00:53:24   it was the, and this fits with my memory,

00:53:27   is that I didn't start the linked list part

00:53:30   of "Daring Fireball" until 2004.

00:53:33   So all I had were the full articles from 2002 to 2003.

00:53:37   So it wasn't six, seven posts a day.

00:53:41   it was two, three, maybe four posts a week,

00:53:46   but probably more like two or three posts a week.

00:53:49   And so it, I actually literally think

00:53:54   that the existence of Mars Edit

00:53:57   made "Daring Fireball" what it is today,

00:54:01   because without it,

00:54:03   I would have never started the linked list.

00:54:05   I wouldn't do it if I had to do it

00:54:07   through the web interface and movable type.

00:54:09   - Right, that's-- - It never would have

00:54:10   occurred to me to do it because it would have seemed like such an enormous pain in the ass.

00:54:14   Yeah, you don't want anything where there's sort of the shorter and more off-the-cuff

00:54:23   thing you're publishing is in that respect.

00:54:26   That's where the friction of going to the web can become the most grating.

00:54:31   I think that's an interesting point.

00:54:33   What's funny is it's also--there's different things that drive people to something like

00:54:38   something like Mars Edit, but the opposite is true when people are used to just writing

00:54:43   the long-form stuff in the web browser.

00:54:46   Over the years, I don't know how many copies I've sold to people who just had the "browser

00:54:52   eats your content" bug happen.

00:54:54   Again, that's something that happens far, far less than it used to.

00:55:01   It's interesting that you could have the experience of it just being very pertinent to you in

00:55:07   that sense of just like quickly getting stuff up there that would be too much trouble to

00:55:12   kind of go and log in to do. But then on the other hand, it's also very, it's very useful

00:55:18   to people who want that like I wrote this on my Mac, saved it on my Mac, and it's not

00:55:23   going anywhere. Kind of the long form stuff as well.

00:55:28   Now, when Brent was doing it, I know that Brent and you know, and this is one of those

00:55:36   things where maybe Brent is almost, you know, he's too sensitive and overthought it. But

00:55:40   his idea was that if he's writing a generic blog editor that tries to support every blog

00:55:48   or even blog type CMS that has a remote editing API support, that he needed to be neutral

00:55:57   towards them all. And so his own blog, he wrote his own blog software for so that instead

00:56:03   of say using WordPress and then people say, "Well, you use WordPress so that's why your

00:56:08   app works better with WordPress than blah, blah, blah."

00:56:11   Whereas the truth is it works better with WordPress because WordPress has better API

00:56:14   support than some other thing.

00:56:17   Right.

00:56:18   Yeah, I always kind of thought that was interesting, that stance he took.

00:56:23   And I think I still don't quite get it.

00:56:26   I think he overthought it.

00:56:28   Yeah.

00:56:29   And there's also, try to look at it from Brent's point of view, where he was so in the midst

00:56:37   of this big, he was a big pillar of this kind of emerging blogging, RSS type thing.

00:56:49   I think a lot of people were paying attention to what Brent did and he probably felt that.

00:56:56   My attitude about that has been almost diametrically opposite because, and sort of like lends itself

00:57:03   to my interest in like doing lots of different projects, at least for, you know, lots of

00:57:10   different blogs, at least for a while I tried to make a conscious effort to have separate

00:57:14   projects on separate systems.

00:57:17   So to be able to say, "Okay, this is my WordPress blog.

00:57:21   This is my Blogspot blog.

00:57:28   And then I even tried to do a Tumblr blog.

00:57:32   I actually tried to start a Tumblr blog recently and then got bit by the inability to add images

00:57:39   from Mars Edit.

00:57:42   But I had the opposite attitude, which is I'm not going to understand what these customers

00:57:48   are running into unless I actually try to use this system that they're using.

00:57:54   I didn't think I could really appreciate what people wanted to get out of the app with,

00:57:59   say, WordPress, unless I had a WordPress blog.

00:58:02   Yeah, that makes sense to me.

00:58:05   What are you using for BitSplitting?

00:58:07   I'm using WordPress for that.

00:58:12   the fact of the matter is I've ended up using WordPress more consistently across my sites,

00:58:17   in part because it has that level of support through the API that some systems aren't quite at.

00:58:26   But also just, you know, I'm probably an example of, in part, why WordPress is so successful.

00:58:34   You can install it on almost any server. If you host it yourself, you can customize it. And there's

00:58:39   like a huge collection of plugins for getting a head start on that. So like for example

00:58:45   my bit splitting podcast is it leans at least a little bit on this podcasting plugin I installed.

00:58:54   And that just took some of the work out of that.

00:58:56   What does it do?

00:58:58   It does stuff like automatically sense that there's an enclosure on the blog post and

00:59:03   enclosure you know saying a reference to an mp3 file if there's an enclosure on

00:59:08   the file then it is it if there's an mp3 on the on the you know post then it not

00:59:15   only packages all that up in the way that makes sense to iTunes but it like

00:59:19   automatically reads the size of the file off of that and the length in minutes

00:59:24   and hours and stuff and puts it automatically inserts a you know like on

00:59:29   They have this on Mule Networks as well.

00:59:33   You can go to the page for an episode and just play the episode right there.

00:59:37   Automatically inserts a media player, stuff like that.

00:59:40   And does it do it with the HTML5?

00:59:42   Yeah, so it works on iPhones and all that, and it's magic.

00:59:48   You know what I was just thinking about last night?

00:59:52   Because it's a little off topic, I guess, but it's sort of related to that with the

00:59:58   the HTML5 is that the world is so quickly, like the people depending on flash player

01:00:12   for audio and video playback are disappearing at such a fast rate now that it's surprising

01:00:20   when I'm on the iPad or iPhone and run into something that I can't play at this point.

01:00:26   Because just last night, before I went to bed, I wanted to watch Elon Musk at the D11

01:00:33   conference, the All Things D. It was just posted earlier in the day. I don't know.

01:00:42   Their whole team is at a conference. I just had this thought in my head like, "Ooh, I

01:00:45   bet this is going to…" The only way it was going to work for me was I was downstairs.

01:00:49   The only thing I had was my iPad and I wanted to AirPlay it to my Apple TV. I thought, "This

01:00:54   going to work. I bet it's going to need Flash. I'm going to have to watch in the morning

01:00:58   up on my desktop or something or just not even watch it. I went to the thing and it

01:01:03   just worked because of course it has HTML5 support.

01:01:08   I just remember there were so many people who when iOS came out without Flash support

01:01:14   who were so damn sure that it was never going to work. There's no way that people are going

01:01:20   to give up Flash player because Flash was already there and just worked.

01:01:26   It's just one of those things where the people who are so wrong about that are never going

01:01:28   to revisit that and admit that they were wrong.

01:01:31   Yeah, well it's one of those things too where depending on what...

01:01:35   I didn't quite get it until I...

01:01:38   I didn't get it really at all because I was very dismissive of anybody who thought you

01:01:43   would require Flash for the long term.

01:01:45   And then I had to kind of grudgingly admit that, for example, this whole class of like

01:01:52   kids games from PBS and etc that my kid played were all like flash based.

01:01:59   And I was like, "Oh, okay, well, there is a there is a ton of stuff out there that today

01:02:05   or at that time 2010 you can't use."

01:02:10   But then I think you're right now it's like, it's getting to the point where yes, all these

01:02:14   like old flash games and stuff are still out there and occasional like very I don't know

01:02:21   what's wrong with them. Restaurants will still require flash for their menus or whatever.

01:02:25   You know what's really changed that though the iPhone has really changed that too. It

01:02:30   really is because I think restaurants in particular it's because they want to appeal to people

01:02:35   who are already out and are like, can we get in at this place? Where is this place? You

01:02:41   Let's go to the New Mexican place."

01:02:45   The iPhone has driven away.

01:02:47   It's finally driven restaurants off flash-based websites.

01:02:51   I think.

01:02:52   Tim Cynova Yeah, I think any of them that have the wherewithal

01:02:54   to notice that and/or the budget to change whatever they've done.

01:02:58   A lot of these restaurants, especially if they're not glossy restaurants and you just

01:03:03   happen to like, then they have the misfortune of somebody having sold them a solution in

01:03:08   2007 that they're stuck with until.

01:03:12   I think that's the way I would put it is not how much Flash content is out there now, but

01:03:19   who is commissioning new Flash content today?

01:03:23   Right.

01:03:24   Nobody.

01:03:25   It would be dumb, right?

01:03:26   No.

01:03:27   Even Adobe has finally gotten off it.

01:03:28   It would be.

01:03:29   There's some Flash experts out there who are peddling Flashwares, trying to make this argument

01:03:37   that Flash is going to have a big comeback and you don't want to be caught without Flash

01:03:42   on your site when the big comeback comes.

01:03:44   Right. But that's the plug-in you're talking about. It sounds like it does the right thing.

01:03:49   And it's the same lines of why I like using Mars Edit and why Mars Edit really, I wouldn't

01:03:58   say it inspired the idea for the link list, but it made me think it was something I might

01:04:01   want to do because, like you said, you said the word "friction." That taking out the friction

01:04:06   because it's not complicated, it's not hard. Like if you're a programmer, the markup involved

01:04:13   of getting an HTML audio player into a post on your website is not, it's not like you

01:04:20   don't understand it, but if you had to do the markup by hand every week, it's a pain

01:04:24   in the ass. Whereas if you can just tell the software, here's the description and it's

01:04:30   just text, you just write the description and here's the file and it's just an audio

01:04:35   file and the right XML and HTML comes out the other side when you hit a button, it's

01:04:44   just this, it's like a weight off your shoulders.

01:04:46   It's a huge difference.

01:04:49   And all that time you saved is, you know, it's the time that is going to give you even

01:04:54   the possibility of squeezing this one other project into your busy schedule.

01:04:58   Like, you know, there's a level of complexity, for instance, if you didn't have the help

01:05:01   of Mule Networks and you didn't have this great audio recording software and a great mic and

01:05:07   computer that can handle it all. There's this level of complexity where you wouldn't do this show.

01:05:11   And these are all the little things that add up. And that friction word is what keeps coming back

01:05:18   to for me. And I'm sensitive to that. That's why, for example, I don't see myself using

01:05:25   Twitter if they ever made it so I couldn't use a desktop app of some kind.

01:05:31   Yeah. Right? Like, I'm not going to go log in to post my, you know, funny to me and five

01:05:37   other people thought that just came to mind. Yeah, I, you know, their website is a fine

01:05:44   website, but if I had to use the Twitter website to use Twitter, I wouldn't use Twitter.

01:05:48   Exactly. That's, and I think we're a minority, actually, but...

01:05:52   Yeah, but that's why I hope that they – and I think like the renewed – like they've

01:05:57   had a lot of renewed activity in their own clients.

01:06:01   Like for a while, it seemed like not just that they were anti-third party clients, which

01:06:08   they still are. I mean they still have these severe limits that are really – I really

01:06:14   hope they revisit them. The third party thing is different, but it really seemed almost

01:06:18   like they weren't just anti-third-party clients but that they were anti-clients period and

01:06:23   that their own apps were an after – they really wanted people to use the website.

01:06:29   I feel like the reason that I thought that was frustrating was that most people do already.

01:06:34   The mass market already does just use the website. Let the people who care enough to

01:06:38   want the apps use apps and just make everybody happy. It's so hard to go wrong making people

01:06:46   happy, users, customers, whatever you want to call them. If you're making them happy,

01:06:51   you really – you're on the right track.

01:06:54   Eric Bischoff Yeah.

01:06:55   Dave Asprey And if you're doing things that make some

01:06:57   significant portion of them unhappy, that's a good sign that you're wrong.

01:07:01   Eric Bischoff Yeah. And with Twitter, I think – I get

01:07:06   the argument people have given that they had – they're a bind. They have investors.

01:07:10   They need to make money. They need to prove that they can make money. They need to take

01:07:13   control of the timeline, all this stuff.

01:07:16   I guess what I'm optimistic for is that once they get past that kind of nervous zone, then

01:07:23   they can loosen up a little bit.

01:07:26   I could even imagine some investor somewhere saying, "Well, how are you going to make money

01:07:32   if you let all these third-party clients do whatever the heck they want?"

01:07:36   Maybe even somebody at Twitter could be thinking, "Well, that's just John Gruber and Daniel

01:07:40   Jock, those are the only two people. But they'd still want this argument to say, "Oh right,

01:07:46   this is our plan going forward. We're going to take control of the timeline."

01:07:50   Don't fight against people's desires, though. But if it had worked out differently and it

01:07:54   ended up that 90% of the people using Twitter wanted to use third-party clients, if that's

01:07:59   what they want, then they should go with it and figure out a new way to make money from

01:08:04   it. As long as you've got millions and millions of people using it, there's got to be a way

01:08:08   to make money on it. I mean, that's really what inspired me to do the RSS sponsorships

01:08:15   on Daring Fireball was that I, you know, and it's been so long now, it seems like ancient

01:08:22   history, but at the time, my free RSS feed, the default one that anybody could just sign

01:08:26   up for, didn't have the full content of the site. It only had excerpts of articles so

01:08:32   that you'd have to go to the website to read the articles because my thought was, well,

01:08:37   That's the only place where I've got ads.

01:08:39   So I can't just put all the articles in this RSS thing because everybody who does that

01:08:46   is decreasing the number of people who read the ad-supported stuff.

01:08:52   Then I had paid feeds where if you bought a t-shirt or signed up for a membership, you'd

01:08:57   get a little username and a password and then you could read these feeds with the full content.

01:09:05   way, okay, there's no ads, but you're giving me 19 bucks a year, which is fantastic. That's

01:09:10   great. That's way more than enough per reader. That easily justifies full content.

01:09:16   But the problem I ran into was Google Reader, which was the thing that everybody – so

01:09:21   many people wanted to use, but Google Reader didn't support password-authenticated feeds.

01:09:28   And at first I thought, well, they'll get around to it. And it's Google. They'll

01:09:32   around to it. And then it didn't and I just kept getting email after email after email

01:09:36   that I'm trying to use my, I just paid for this thing. I gave you 19 bucks and here's

01:09:41   my username and password. I can't get it to work in Google Reader. And then I thought,

01:09:45   I gave it some thought and I thought of course it doesn't support feeds because Google works

01:09:49   at scale. And Google, therefore, let's say there's 10,000 people reading the Daring Fireball

01:09:56   feed or you know, I don't know, it's probably more, a lot more than that. It's hundreds

01:09:59   thousands, but I'll be humble and say it's 10,000.

01:10:04   They don't want to check the feed 10,000 times with 10,000 username and password combinations.

01:10:10   They want to check the feed once and they store it and then the 10,000 people get the

01:10:15   content from Google, right?

01:10:18   Google's bot checks the feed once, sees there's a new article, and then they send it to the

01:10:24   10,000 people.

01:10:26   That's how Google works.

01:10:27   Right?

01:10:28   Right?

01:10:29   actual numbers and you know like I said I mean there's you know like literally

01:10:33   hundreds of thousands of people signed up for the feed through Google Reader it

01:10:38   you can see how it just doesn't make sense from Google's perspective to

01:10:41   support usernames and passwords but so instead of fighting it I thought well

01:10:46   there's got to be a way that I can make this work so many people want to use

01:10:49   Google Reader and they want full content I I'm lucky that there's all these

01:10:54   people who want to read what I'm writing this way, let's do it and I don't know, I

01:11:00   guess I could just sell a sponsorship once a week and that wouldn't annoy people and

01:11:05   I'll just put it in as an entry instead of putting like an ad in the entries, I'll

01:11:10   make the ad and entry in the feed. It's worked out great. It's turned into the primary

01:11:16   source of income for the site. But it was only because I didn't want to – I wasn't

01:11:20   afraid to say, and the membership thing was great. It was, you know, at the time, it was

01:11:26   the most successful thing I had done. But I wasn't afraid to just throw it away because

01:11:31   so many people wanted something where it was never going to work. And by doing that, I

01:11:35   came up with something that was, you know, way more profitable.

01:11:39   And easier to administer, easier to maintain. You don't have to have this back end liability.

01:11:44   That's a, you reminded me talking about that actually, this interview Glenn Fleischman

01:11:49   did on his podcast with Cory Doctorow.

01:11:52   And one of the things Cory said that struck me, because I think I've been kind of like

01:11:56   coming to terms with this kind of stuff myself lately, he talked about the distinction between

01:12:04   when a problem becomes a fact.

01:12:08   He was talking about ad rates for newspapers, and it was a problem for a while.

01:12:16   they were going down and then like it one day it just becomes a fact that

01:12:19   they're never gonna go up again and like I think about this stuff with the App

01:12:23   Store is it a problem for me that Apple requires my app to be sandboxed well for

01:12:30   a while it's a problem until maybe you know if I want to stay in this business

01:12:34   it's just a fact so that's kind of what you ended up doing and it's like it's

01:12:38   kind of reassuring to know like well this is a pretty dynamic business and

01:12:42   everything's shifting all the time all these problems are either going to go

01:12:45   away or they're going to become facts.

01:12:47   Right. Eventually, it's like fighting the tide, right? And maybe, you know, whatever

01:12:51   reason you're down at the shore and you really don't want the tide to come in, it's not a

01:12:56   good time for it. But if the tide's coming in, it's coming in and there's nothing you

01:12:59   can do about it. So you better figure out a way to go with the rising tide than to,

01:13:04   you know, somehow try to, you know, build the sandcastle and fight off the tide that's

01:13:09   coming in.

01:13:10   Yep.

01:13:11   Let me do the last sponsorship and then we'll wrap up. I want to talk a little bit more

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01:15:08   a new website, you're nuts if you don't check out Squarespace. Squarespace.com and the code,

01:15:15   not password, code is talk show six. So how come there's no iPhone version of Mars Edit?

01:15:22   Oh boy. Don't get me started. Save this towards the end of the show. That will be a natural

01:15:31   protection here but I softened you up you know I don't know it's a part of it

01:15:39   is there's a lot of it's a reason 23rd 2013 Daniel I know and it's a it's

01:15:46   frustrating to me actually that that there is no Mars edit for iOS part of it

01:15:53   is just that the just the pure and simple one person running a company it's hard for

01:16:02   me to make more than one substantial product and even though it would have the same name

01:16:10   Mars Edit for iOS is as you know an iOS app that has a counterpart on the Mac has to be

01:16:18   a dramatically different product.

01:16:20   You could share, almost certainly, the backend code that communicates to the various APIs.

01:16:30   That's right.

01:16:31   Right?

01:16:32   But the interface would be 100% new.

01:16:35   Absolutely.

01:16:36   I think that has to be true.

01:16:37   Even stuff like the syntax coloring would be different, because NSText and the UI text

01:16:43   views, the UI stuff for text is all totally different.

01:16:48   Yeah.

01:16:49   all the Vue stuff would be dramatically different. Make no mistake, I've been thinking about this

01:16:57   since day one of the iPhone, thinking about how much sense it would make, first of all,

01:17:04   how much money could I make, second of all, what kind of trade-offs I'd have to make,

01:17:09   third of all, and then what are the high-level design differences. The use cases are different,

01:17:17   too for like for if you're using Mars Edit on an iPhone for example you're not

01:17:23   going to be typing out unless you're insane you know the whole long new

01:17:28   essay. Do you know who writes long blog posts on his iPhone?

01:17:33   Om Malik. Really? Yeah he writes with a keyboard though right with a keyboard. I

01:17:39   don't think so I you know I don't I don't know I think he actually types him

01:17:44   out on the on the phone keyboard. If you go to Om's blog, he even says sometimes,

01:17:49   like he just put up a review of not GigaOM but his personal blog.

01:17:55   It's like om.co I think. It's a super cool URL. It's like om.co. I think

01:18:01   that's his blog. I better double check. Yep. Is it? What I'm reading today.

01:18:09   yep mm-hmm yeah oh yeah om dot co which is how awesome is that if you look at

01:18:16   his review of the galaxy s4 he says that he wrote it on on his iPhone I'm telling

01:18:23   you the I and I don't think he's with the keyboard so oh yeah he said he wrote

01:18:26   it with draft with drafts on his iPhone yep there's people who do it so I don't

01:18:32   know I you might be underestimating that although I agree though that the average

01:18:36   posts are probably the best. I post a lot from my iPhone, especially when I'm on vacation

01:18:43   or something like that, but it's a lot shorter.

01:18:46   Typically more like links, right?

01:18:49   Yeah. But I'll add content and stuff like that. I have a bookmark lid that makes it

01:18:53   so that it sends me over to Movable Type. There's a great plugin for Movable Type called

01:19:00   IMT, like lowercase "i" "m" "t" like movable type. That Brad Choate, I know him for years,

01:19:11   I don't know how to pronounce his surname, Choate, Brad Choate and somebody else at Six

01:19:15   Apart wrote years ago. But it just makes movable type look right on the iPhone. And actually,

01:19:22   in many, many ways, actually makes movable types web interface way better than the version

01:19:28   on the desktop. It's actually, it's not just like a stripped down version. It's just, it's

01:19:36   like, it's just clean. It's really good. So I don't, because of that, I don't crave Mars

01:19:42   Edit for iPhone as much as I would without that. But I do. And especially, you know,

01:19:49   and I'll tell you, you know, you know what the problem is. The biggest problem is that

01:19:54   you can occasionally, while you're going back and forth between tabs in Mobile Safari, if

01:19:58   If it runs short on memory, it'll just wipe your other ones out.

01:20:02   And if you've already sat there and painstakingly thumb typed a couple, even just a couple sentences,

01:20:07   and then you come back and it reloads the page and it's all gone, it's rage inducing.

01:20:14   So yeah, it's like the old world browser problems from the desktop are new world problems on

01:20:19   iOS.

01:20:20   It's like, because that almost never happens anymore, thankfully, on desktop browsers.

01:20:25   But definitely happens on the iPhone.

01:20:27   So long, you just haven't gotten to it?

01:20:29   I just haven't gotten, you know, it's one of those things too. I have a, I have a list of unfinished projects

01:20:34   that is, it's one of my, you know, one of my definite flaws is my distractibility and interest in new projects.

01:20:41   Jumping into things like making a podcast, I'm not going to lie that that takes some time away from, you know,

01:20:48   maybe making an iOS version of MarsEdit.

01:20:50   But yeah, the other problem is,

01:20:54   just completely, just at confessional mode here,

01:20:59   it's a challenge to take something like MarsEdit

01:21:04   that's such a feature-filled app on the Mac,

01:21:07   and then get comfortable with whatever subset

01:21:12   of those features is that you're willing to ship the 1.0 as.

01:21:16   And that is, that's hard when you're making a new product,

01:21:21   hard enough when you're making a new product, right?

01:21:23   Because you have your own personal idea

01:21:26   about what everything, how everything should work,

01:21:29   and you ship the app and you go,

01:21:30   "Ah, everyone's gonna hate the fact

01:21:32   "that I left out XYZ features."

01:21:36   But when you're shipping a version of an existing app,

01:21:41   it's really easy to get caught up in fears about that.

01:21:43   Like, who's going to be mad that it doesn't support this publishing feature of WordPress?

01:21:52   Who's going to be mad that it doesn't support rich text, let's say?

01:21:55   Who's going to be mad this, that, and the other thing?

01:21:57   And so, for example, I could look at someone like you, John, and I could say, "Well, I

01:21:59   know John's not going to be mad if it doesn't support rich text.

01:22:02   I know John's not going to be mad if it..."

01:22:04   I know John would be...

01:22:05   I'd be happier if it didn't.

01:22:06   Because then there's one less tab in the interface junking it up, because I'm never going to

01:22:10   turn it on.

01:22:11   Exactly.

01:22:12   So, and for another example, you would be happy if it was a movable type only app for

01:22:20   starters, let's say.

01:22:21   So—

01:22:22   Well, I'd be satisfied.

01:22:23   It wouldn't make me happy.

01:22:24   I wouldn't be like gleeful that other people can't use it.

01:22:26   I would be like, "Well, that's cool.

01:22:27   If he's only going to support one, at least it's the one I could use."

01:22:30   That's right.

01:22:31   It works for me.

01:22:32   You might even be saying under your breath, "Well, he's an idiot, but this is working

01:22:35   for me."

01:22:36   Right, because there's 20 million people on WordPress and, you know, 10 of us left

01:22:39   on movable type.

01:22:40   Right.

01:22:41   But me and Kaki can use it.

01:22:43   That's right.

01:22:44   I'll tell Kudol too.

01:22:48   The movable type cabal will be satisfied.

01:22:53   But yeah, it's a challenge for me.

01:22:56   You remember I made a talk about this at the first Singleton where that's already two

01:23:00   years old now, my sort of coming to grips with my own inability to finish and ship this

01:23:07   thing.

01:23:08   Right.

01:23:09   But what can I say?

01:23:10   days it's going to happen, and then we will move on from there. To be honest with you,

01:23:14   just like, I'm not one of these... There's some people out there who are still these

01:23:19   Mac developers who are convinced that iOS is not worth pursuing, or it's like, I don't

01:23:28   know, it's for toys, it's for games, and Mac is going to be here forever. And these people,

01:23:34   to me, I'm a committed Mac developer, but these people are sounding more and more to me like the

01:23:39   people who were convinced Mac OS 9 was here forever.

01:23:44   If I were starting a new app and it was like a utility type app and it made sense to maybe

01:23:50   have iOS and Mac versions of the same app, I would do the iPhone version first.

01:23:59   Not even iPad, I would do iPhone first.

01:24:01   I have to say, maybe exclusively, depending on the app, because it's a very near and dear

01:24:11   to my heart market, the Mac community, but it is a specialty kind of power user market

01:24:19   more and more.

01:24:20   Right.

01:24:21   And maybe it might make sense.

01:24:23   I know what you're saying, because the idea would be, it wouldn't be that the Mac doesn't

01:24:26   matter, but that if you have limited resources, you're always going to get more results out

01:24:30   of pouring those resources into the iOS version because the opportunity is so

01:24:36   immensely large. I think that's the thing that old-school Mac developers maybe are

01:24:40   just they can't wrap their heads around is just how large the iPhone iPad market

01:24:47   is. Because we're just not used to that. I mean we're all happy that the Mac is thriving

01:24:52   and that the Mac audience has grown over the last ten years which is great but

01:24:59   But you just can't fathom how much larger the iOS market is.

01:25:02   I can't.

01:25:03   I just know it is that much larger.

01:25:05   But I really, it's almost like it doesn't even make sense to me.

01:25:07   It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

01:25:09   But the important distinction for me and for I think other Mac developers out there is

01:25:13   a huge market.

01:25:15   And that is clearly not enough for us.

01:25:17   Otherwise, we would have all been Windows developers the whole time.

01:25:19   Right.

01:25:20   That's not the reason.

01:25:21   That's not, yeah.

01:25:22   It's not the reason.

01:25:23   combination of a huge market and a compelling, interesting platform.

01:25:28   And a lot, not to all people, because there's, you know, there's clearly a lot

01:25:32   of people using iPhones and iPads who don't even care about the quality of the

01:25:36   interface of the apps they use, but there's clearly a subset of them who do.

01:25:41   And, you know, it still is the difference. We could go for another hour and talk

01:25:46   about the whole market share and profit share stuff, but part of it, and you know,

01:25:49   like the Tim Cook thing at the D11 conference where he keeps talking about

01:25:53   about the usage stats that show that people use the iPhone a lot more than Android users

01:25:58   use their phone for the web browsing and for app installing and all this stuff. What that

01:26:02   means is though is that the people who care more tend to buy iPhones and iPads. Not all

01:26:09   of them. Not that everybody who cares and makes a very thoughtful and informed decision

01:26:16   to which phone to buy chooses an iPhone. But that the more you do care and think about

01:26:22   the more likely you are to choose an iPhone.

01:26:24   And that means that the market of people for the apps

01:26:27   is predisposed to appreciate the things that Mac developers have

01:26:30   always cared about, which is sweating the details,

01:26:34   putting nice touches in, just making nice things.

01:26:40   Yeah.

01:26:42   And with a market as huge as the iOS market,

01:26:46   even if only 5% of that market is that kind of attention

01:26:52   to details, appreciation. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head. Probably 5%

01:26:58   of the iOS market is comparable to the Mac market. I don't know. That's pulling it out

01:27:04   of thin air.

01:27:05   Dave: It might even be … Well, that's probably about right. But maybe if anything,

01:27:09   it's smaller.

01:27:10   Tim: Right. So the Mac market is huge today. It's bigger than it's ever been and it's

01:27:14   enough to sustain one-person companies like me. Then you look at something like the iOS

01:27:18   market and you say, "Even if …" I know it can be folly to look at markets and say,

01:27:22   even if I could get X percent.

01:27:23   But yes, there is a significant portion

01:27:26   of that market that is right up traditional Mac developers'

01:27:32   alleys.

01:27:34   And you bet I want to get in there.

01:27:37   And I have fun when I play with iOS development.

01:27:39   It's just time management.

01:27:41   And there's also other little things,

01:27:44   like making money on iOS is not as obvious.

01:27:48   It's not as clear.

01:27:49   And I know other people who have dipped their toes into iOS

01:27:51   and then kind of recoil back to the Mac because even with this piddly little market, we charge

01:27:57   40 bucks for our software and people think that's cheap.

01:28:00   Right. Now, it definitely makes a difference. I'll tell you what. We'll wrap up, but I'm

01:28:04   going to tell you. I'm going to give you a hint because I'm your pal.

01:28:07   All right.

01:28:08   So you're too nice.

01:28:11   Because there was an easy – when I hit you with why is there no iPhone version of Mars

01:28:17   edit. What you should have done is instead of answering it, is you should have hit me

01:28:22   with why is there no iPhone responsive version of Darren Fireball. Because it all, you know,

01:28:31   people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

01:28:32   So, so, so,

01:28:34   Because of me rubbing it in your face that it's 2013, well, the same thing applies to

01:28:38   the fact that when you load Darren Fireball on your iPhone, it still doesn't look perfect.

01:28:43   And why isn't there, what was the other thing that you were, I heard this several months

01:28:47   ago on your show, I think, the web fonts thing. Why haven't you adopted—

01:28:51   Right. Why is it text still set in an 11px Verdana?

01:28:56   And it's because you have a hell of a lot of things to do, and that one hasn't bubbled

01:29:01   up to the top yet.

01:29:02   Yeah, more or less. Is that what I said? That's a good answer.

01:29:05   No, no. That's my off-the-cuff answer today. That's my answering vicariously through

01:29:10   you answer, but feel free to take it.

01:29:13   Well, it's you know, that's exactly right though. It's bubbled up, but it's not quite at the top

01:29:18   It's it always it never gets higher than like number two or number three and then something else is always at number one

01:29:25   Well, the other thing too with the thing that the web fonts is I want to I've had

01:29:28   People say the design hasn't changed in ten years of during file that's not true if you go through it it has changed in subtle ways

01:29:36   But it's always been 11 px

01:29:40   Verdana for the body fun and it held up for 10 years and you know, it's definitely looks dated now

01:29:46   But if I well when I change I will change but when I change I want it to last

01:29:51   For the rest of my life

01:29:53   I would like to change the font once and then that's it because once now that web fonts are available

01:29:59   I can pick a font that should never get dated

01:30:02   Right, but then you got it that that having that attitude going into it ups the ante right incredibly, right?

01:30:10   You got to measure, you know, they say measure twice, cut once.

01:30:12   Well, I measure about three or four hundred times and then I cut once.

01:30:16   I'm going to use that.

01:30:20   That's going to be my new one-line response actually to iOS Mars Edit.

01:30:26   I'll take that one from you.

01:30:27   You can take the bubbling up from me and we'll move on with that.

01:30:31   All right.

01:30:32   Daniel, thank you for your time.

01:30:33   This has been a great show.

01:30:35   Let's let's let everybody know again all this stuff where they can find

01:30:39   Your work so we've got red sweater software. That's let me get it right red -

01:30:45   sweater calm

01:30:47   That's right red - sweater calm Mars edit is the big one there

01:30:51   Bit splitting org is

01:30:55   your new blog and your podcast

01:30:59   and

01:31:00   Then where's core intuition?

01:31:03   Core intuition is that core int?

01:31:05   Org pay you gonna be at the WWDC

01:31:09   Yeah, I'm gonna be standing on the steps of WWDC

01:31:12   Passing out flyers and competing with the crazy street people for you. You won the lottery

01:31:19   To get a you you got in in the 90-second window where tickets are available. You got a ticket, but then immediately

01:31:27   Like within the hour rather than be happy about it you decided

01:31:32   that what wait what to explain this have I have I mentioned my high horse right

01:31:38   show you immediately got up on your high horse I got I bought I got down off of

01:31:45   my high horse just long enough to stand in line with everybody else at 1 p.m.

01:31:51   Eastern Time reloading frantically the WWDC page and got in reloaded I heard

01:31:58   your account of this to mine went just like yours okay reload reload reload you

01:32:02   can buy, click buy. Okay, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I don't care what it is, yes. You have

01:32:08   a ticket allegedly coming to your inbox soon. All right, cool. That was easy.

01:32:13   Dave: Me and you were doing it at the same time.

01:32:16   Tim Cynova So you had that experience too, right?

01:32:18   Dave Right.

01:32:19   Tim Cynova So you and I were both thinking at 1 o'clock

01:32:23   and 33 seconds. Wow.

01:32:25   Dave This was great. Everybody got in.

01:32:27   Tim Cynova This was great. Yeah, I'm going to go check

01:32:28   with my friends. Everyone I know was doing the same thing, so we all got tickets. Then

01:32:35   I just start seeing, "Oh, Apple. Oh, I had the ticket in my cart. Oh, it wouldn't even

01:32:40   let me get into the ticket. Oh, it wouldn't even let me log in."

01:32:42   I knew one of my friends supposedly had a ticket, but then when they put their credit

01:32:50   card thing in, it spun for a while and came back with like Czechoslovakian text and some

01:32:57   company name from Eastern Europe.

01:33:00   Right! It was revealing other members' information.

01:33:04   Anyway, it was kind of a classic Daniel Punk-ass, high horse moment.

01:33:12   But it was one of these things where I didn't understand

01:33:17   why I was doing it at the moment. I was doing it on instinct.

01:33:22   I think I remember I tweeted it.

01:33:25   Well, first of all, I went to the site, to the store, and I was frankly surprised that

01:33:29   they had an option on the store cancel order.

01:33:33   I just thought, "Are you kidding me?

01:33:37   This is the one thing nobody would ever want to cancel."

01:33:42   And then I thought about it, and I'm seeing all my friends, some people who even ended

01:33:47   up getting tickets afterwards, but friends like Marco Arment, I think my friend Chris

01:33:55   Alicia got one, Marco Arment didn't get one, Manton Reese, you know, he's like the most

01:34:01   earnestly wanting to attend WWDC guy I know.

01:34:04   Dave: Yeah, if fans didn't get a ticket, it really

01:34:06   makes you doubt that there's a God.

01:34:08   Tim Cynova Yeah, right.

01:34:09   So then I'm like, "You know what?

01:34:10   I'm in the wrong club here."

01:34:12   It's like in retrospect, I started looking at it and the metaphors that came to mind

01:34:16   were like, I just like ran the race of my life and I'm like panting at the finish line

01:34:23   And I came across and I broke the ribbon and I they hand me the gold medal and they're like congratulations

01:34:28   you ran a great race and I look behind me and like people have been tripping the other runners and like

01:34:34   You know

01:34:36   Fire firing like slingshots at them and I just had like an easy breezy run and then I find out afterwards that

01:34:42   It wasn't a fair run. And so you canceled your order. So I canceled my order

01:34:47   Instinctively and not sure if I would believe me. It was a little stressful

01:34:51   But it took me about two minutes to make the call, because I was also, as I'm thinking this,

01:35:02   I'm also like, like I said, this is not real. They're not really offering to let me cancel.

01:35:06   That doesn't make any sense. But then I thought, what if this is my chance? And so then I canceled

01:35:14   it. And I felt the urgency and the stress of, or the anxiety rather, of deciding.

01:35:19   It was the most jowkety thing you've ever done.

01:35:21   - It was the jowkety thing.

01:35:23   (laughs)

01:35:24   It was full.

01:35:25   - But you're still coming out to San Francisco?

01:35:26   - I am, yes.

01:35:27   I'll come out.

01:35:28   I'll see you there.

01:35:29   - You coming to the talk show live thing?

01:35:30   - Absolutely, yes.

01:35:32   I was there last year.

01:35:33   I've had a great time looking forward to.

01:35:34   You're at a different location now though.

01:35:36   - Bigger.

01:35:36   - Yeah, bigger.

01:35:37   - But it's still sold out.

01:35:38   So I'm sorry everybody out there tried to get the tickets

01:35:40   and you didn't.

01:35:41   I'm really sorry and maybe next year we'll try to get

01:35:43   an even bigger place.

01:35:44   But all of you, looking forward to it.

01:35:46   I think we got, well, I got one more show next week

01:35:47   and then the next one will be the live one and I'm really looking for ya all

01:35:51   right well you know there then yep and remember John just looking for a bigger

01:35:54   venue is more than Apple has done

01:35:57   anyway bit splitting org red sweater calm and where's core intuition with you

01:36:05   and Manton core int org all right that's great that Daniel jacket thank you for

01:36:10   your time and and thanks for a great show thanks for having me John all right