The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► You know what, speaking of the old talk show, you know, this was last week.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I didn't commemorate it.

00:00:05 ◼   ► I guess it was, I don't know if it would have been a week before I skipped a show, but it's

00:00:11 ◼   ► a year since I started doing the show here at Mule.

00:00:15 ◼   ► And I didn't commemorate the year.

00:00:16 ◼   ► I guess it's even a year and a week.

00:00:18 ◼   ► Well, happy anniversary.

00:00:20 ◼   ► That's exciting.

00:00:21 ◼   ► One year has flown by pretty quickly.

00:00:25 ◼   ► And how are the hot, under-the-collar, long-time fans who were not so happy about your transition?

00:00:39 ◼   ► I don't really look at the iTunes.

00:00:41 ◼   ► I don't hear from them anymore.

00:00:43 ◼   ► I got some email at first, but most of it was in the iTunes comments.

00:00:49 ◼   ► I don't look at them that much anymore, but they still show up.

00:00:54 ◼   ► It still seems like there's every once in a while, I'll look at the comments and there's

00:00:57 ◼   ► one and I'll think, "Well, that's an old comment," because there's somebody commenting on it

00:01:01 ◼   ► like it just happened.

00:01:03 ◼   ► And then I look at the date on their comment and it's like yesterday and it's like, "You're

00:01:06 ◼   ► still..."

00:01:07 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:01:08 ◼   ► Like, "Get over it, pal."

00:01:09 ◼   ► I was actually thinking of you and thinking of that whole way that played out recently

00:01:16 ◼   ► when I was just kind of watching and commiserating from afar actually with Marco Arment about

00:01:23 ◼   ► this whole, you know, everyone's giving him a hard time about how much he did or didn't

00:01:26 ◼   ► make or should or shouldn't be nice to people and all this stuff. And it's just that certain

00:01:33 ◼   ► that there's this certain kind of personality out there that I think, no matter who you

00:01:37 ◼   ► are, if you have some level of success, somebody's going to try to chip away at it. Someone's

00:01:42 ◼   ► going to try to find, find, I think it's like a, it's like a, it's like a defensive gesture

00:01:50 ◼   ► on their part, maybe to explain, "Ah, I don't need to be jealous or envious of this person

00:01:55 ◼   ► anymore because they're actually a horrible person who once changed a feature in Instapaper

00:02:02 ◼   ► that made somebody mad." I don't know what it is, but there's two types of people. Well,

00:02:08 ◼   ► there's more than two types, but there's at least two types of people. One major group

00:02:11 ◼   ► of them is this group of people who are with you and for you and strongly in support of

00:02:16 ◼   ► everything you do until you do this one thing where it's like, "Oh, I thought you were some

00:02:22 ◼   ► kind of superhero."

00:02:23 ◼   ► I also think, and I think Marco is a particular magnet for this, especially his recent run.

00:02:30 ◼   ► Because what's up with that guy? Jesus Christ, he's selling everything. But I feel like he's

00:02:36 ◼   ► a particular magnet for this because his recent run, he's sold a couple of things, or he didn't

00:02:46 ◼   ► really sell the tumbler but he was part of it so he benefited because he had some sliver

00:02:53 ◼   ► of a stake in it and it sold for $27 gazillion. His personality and the way he is so... He's

00:03:00 ◼   ► not abrasive but he just doesn't bend in the face of jackasses. What I think he's a magnet

00:03:13 ◼   ► for is that there's a certain segment of people out there who feel that if you have or if

00:03:18 ◼   ► somebody else has been successful and clearly successful, then they're they're a free target

00:03:24 ◼   ► for just any anything you want to throw at them because it's fair game because they've

00:03:30 ◼   ► had some kind of success. And you can just sort of spew and and just like let off steam

00:03:36 ◼   ► in their direction.

00:03:37 ◼   ► Yeah, I actually thought about this when I was talking on my bits putting show with Jackie

00:03:42 ◼   ► Chang from formerly of, or I guess she's still with Ars Technica, but the famous Jackie Chang.

00:03:47 ◼   ► And we were talking about this spectrum of celebrity, where it's like, I think people are so

00:03:52 ◼   ► used to, for tens, hundreds of years, if you knew somebody's name and didn't know them personally,

00:04:01 ◼   ► then they must be so famous that they could take anything.

00:04:04 ◼   ► Jay Famiglietti Oh, that's a perfect way to put it. That's a good way to put it.

00:04:07 ◼   ► Yeah, because it's kind of like a modern affordance of modern technology that we are afforded small-scale

00:04:19 ◼   ► celebrities. People like you would never have been on the radar of anybody, right? Not to

00:04:28 ◼   ► dismiss what you're doing, but in the old days, maybe you would have gotten a job at CBS Radio

00:04:33 ◼   ► or something. But if you didn't, and you were just kind of toiling away at your stuff, then

00:04:39 ◼   ► you wouldn't have this like kind of tailored made kind of fan base. And I think that there's a

00:04:47 ◼   ► built in misunderstanding of how celebrities can be treated. Right. And then I was saying to Jackie,

00:04:55 ◼   ► that actually opened my eyes a little bit to the fact that, oh, you know, even the real celebrity,

00:04:59 ◼   ► I'm as guilty of it as anybody. I'd say like, "Oh, I'm sure Madonna can take some ribbing

00:05:04 ◼   ► or something." But you kind of step back and say, "Hey," you look at what famous people

00:05:09 ◼   ► we know, quote unquote, "famous people," all the way up to really famous people. And you

00:05:14 ◼   ► say, "You know that John, think in your mind of the most famous, the most legitimately

00:05:21 ◼   ► famous person that you know well enough to make this judgment about and say, 'Doesn't

00:05:26 ◼   ► that person actually get their feelings kind of hurt when somebody is a total jackass to them?

00:05:33 ◼   ► And I think it's true. I think some of us may be hardened to it more than others. But

00:05:40 ◼   ► I was saying to Jackie, "I bet there's some part of Barack Obama who's like,

00:05:45 ◼   ► 'Goddamn it. That's not fair.'"

00:05:52 ◼   ► Anyway, that's something that I think people need to catch up to this. Hopefully, it'll help lead

00:05:58 ◼   ► people to understand that. A lot of what I think people view as when they're judging Marco or

00:06:05 ◼   ► judging you, judging me, judging anybody on our behavior and how we handle criticism or whatever,

00:06:13 ◼   ► is it's failing to acknowledge that it's kind of an unusual circumstance having that much

00:06:19 ◼   ► feedback and having that much exposure to people, right?

00:06:24 ◼   ► Yeah, and I almost feel like we don't have a good word for it because I,

00:06:27 ◼   ► you know, I'm not a celebrity. Celebrity is clearly the wrong word,

00:06:30 ◼   ► but there are way more people who know me than I could possibly know,

00:06:35 ◼   ► and that is something, and that's not

00:06:40 ◼   ► natural, right? Like for thousands of generations of human development,

00:06:47 ◼   ► And the people who knew you and the people who you know was pretty much one to one.

00:06:51 ◼   ► Maybe you were the tribal leader and slightly more people knew you than you knew, but you

00:06:58 ◼   ► still saw their faces.

00:06:59 ◼   ► You know?

00:07:00 ◼   ► Right.

00:07:01 ◼   ► You were still the tribal leader to what at most cases hundreds or a thousand people.

00:07:07 ◼   ► Right.

00:07:08 ◼   ► But probably not.

00:07:09 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:07:10 ◼   ► I still think that was the exception.

00:07:11 ◼   ► And that's really closer to if you were like a king or something like that.

00:07:15 ◼   ► It's closer to what the regular meaning of celebrity is.

00:07:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a relationship disparity.

00:07:25 ◼   ► It's what you have.

00:07:26 ◼   ► - Speaking of well-known people, I should say who you are.

00:07:28 ◼   ► Everybody always complains,

00:07:29 ◼   ► 'cause I like to start the show with a cold opening.

00:07:32 ◼   ► But people may not know.

00:07:33 ◼   ► And here's the thing.

00:07:34 ◼   ► See, I always assume too that people look at the show.

00:07:38 ◼   ► This is the thing.

00:07:39 ◼   ► Let's go a little meta on podcasting.

00:07:41 ◼   ► I assume that with the talk show

00:07:43 ◼   ► when a new episode comes in, whatever app you're using to listen to it, you at least

00:07:47 ◼   ► like look at it and I always put the guest name like first, it's a special guest, Daniel

00:07:52 ◼   ► Jalkett joins John Gruber for blah, blah, blah. But I put the guest name right at the

00:07:58 ◼   ► beginning of the description every time so that you can see, oh, here's who's on the

00:08:03 ◼   ► talk show this week. But a lot of people I think apparently because I get email, people

00:08:08 ◼   ► will email me and they'll say, "I just listened to your show and it was great. I don't know

00:08:12 ◼   ► is on your show.

00:08:13 ◼   ► I got Daniel Jowkett.

00:08:14 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:08:15 ◼   ► How is it, Daniel, that you've never even been on the show?

00:08:20 ◼   ► I don't know what it is.

00:08:22 ◼   ► It's a relationship disparity.

00:08:23 ◼   ► That's what I call it.

00:08:24 ◼   ► It's my fault because you can't ask to be on.

00:08:26 ◼   ► I have to ask you, but I don't know why I've never had you on before.

00:08:30 ◼   ► It happens.

00:08:32 ◼   ► It's great to finally be here.

00:08:33 ◼   ► I mean, I have been a booster for your show, so I'm very happy to see you're still doing

00:08:40 ◼   ► it.

00:08:41 ◼   ► And I was, for what it's worth, not among the hot-headed, frazzled masses when you decided

00:08:48 ◼   ► to move over to Mule Radio. I think you're doing a great job there. This is working.

00:08:55 ◼   ► Dave: Well, you know what? And the bottom line is, I like this show better. It's doing

00:09:02 ◼   ► well. It's clearly not—it hasn't made everybody happy, but you can't do that.

00:09:11 ◼   ► But I feel like if you're not doing a show that you like, or whatever, if you're making

00:09:16 ◼   ► apps, if you're making anything, if you're not making something that you yourself like,

00:09:21 ◼   ► you're going to be miserable.

00:09:23 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:09:24 ◼   ► I can't imagine how anybody would be able to work on something.

00:09:26 ◼   ► If they don't like the thing that they're working on, they're going to be miserable.

00:09:30 ◼   ► You're getting back at – not to harp on this, but you're getting back at that whole

00:09:33 ◼   ► judging successful people thing, where there is a huge amount of expectation for continued service

00:09:45 ◼   ► to some previously presumed promise. For example, just to harp on the Marco situation a little bit,

00:09:53 ◼   ► There are some people out there who undoubtedly feel that Marco's commitment must be, should

00:10:03 ◼   ► have remained and should remain until he dies or until computers are obsolete to work on

00:10:10 ◼   ► Instapaper, let's say.

00:10:15 ◼   ► For example, I don't anticipate you giving up Daring Fireball and starting a new blog,

00:10:21 ◼   ► But if you did merely changing, just merely ditching Daring Fireball and starting a new

00:10:28 ◼   ► blog, let's say for whatever reason you decided it's not making you happy.

00:10:34 ◼   ► So looking at that blog, looking at the articles that come out of it, you're unhappy, you

00:10:39 ◼   ► decide this is for me, I'm going to start a new blog.

00:10:43 ◼   ► People should be happy for you at that point, but they wouldn't be.

00:10:45 ◼   ► They would be saying, "You killed Daring Fireball."

00:10:49 ◼   ► Well, it would be a vocal minority though.

00:10:52 ◼   ► One thing I have found over the years and clearly during fireball has become very successful

00:10:57 ◼   ► and I do get a lot of email from readers and stuff like that.

00:11:01 ◼   ► Most of them are just terrific.

00:11:04 ◼   ► Really, I mean, it's just amazing.

00:11:07 ◼   ► I do feel like it's like the polar opposite of having comments on a blog.

00:11:17 ◼   ► I've not had comments the whole time.

00:11:19 ◼   ► People who are late to daring fireball often think that maybe I've turned off comments

00:11:25 ◼   ► because the audience is so big and it turned bad.

00:11:29 ◼   ► But I didn't have them and didn't want them when I had literally, like in 2002 when I

00:11:35 ◼   ► got started, like 100 page views a day and 60 unique visitors.

00:11:42 ◼   ► I didn't have them then either.

00:11:44 ◼   ► I mean, I didn't want them.

00:11:45 ◼   ► But I think everybody knows that if you do have comments, for better or for worse, a

00:11:51 ◼   ► lot of them, a very significant proportion of them, are from jackasses.

00:11:56 ◼   ► Whereas…

00:11:58 ◼   ► And I think, see, I think the reason is that the jackasses who like to make jackass comments

00:12:03 ◼   ► on a weblog do it because they know the thing is going to be public.

00:12:08 ◼   ► You know, it's a sort of "look at me" anonymously.

00:12:11 ◼   ► It's this "I'm anonymous.

00:12:13 ◼   ► I can be a jackass and get away with it urge that certain personalities have.

00:12:19 ◼   ► Whereas if it's all private, they get nothing out of it.

00:12:22 ◼   ► So I don't get – I get very, very, very, very little.

00:12:25 ◼   ► I mean like a handful of year emails that I would consider the equivalent of comment

00:12:33 ◼   ► jackassery.

00:12:35 ◼   ► I get lots of emails from people who disagree with me.

00:12:38 ◼   ► I get lots of emails from people who just want to say that they agree with me and that

00:12:42 ◼   ► really like the site. But all of it is great. I mean, almost all of it is just super, super

00:12:47 ◼   ► respectful, especially the stuff from people who disagree with me. And I like those emails

00:12:51 ◼   ► even better than the ones that agree with me because it gives me more to think about.

00:12:56 ◼   ► But it's by email and by--and even--and the other thing too is on Twitter, I think that

00:13:02 ◼   ► the people, you know, who @reply me based on Daring Fireball content are great, but

00:13:08 ◼   ► it's because their name is on their Twitter account.

00:13:10 ◼   ► Right. Yeah, there's something to that. And what you said, you know, that the vast majority of

00:13:16 ◼   ► comments are like, you know, jerks or whatever. That is something that becomes more true as the

00:13:24 ◼   ► popularity scales for the site. So if you did have, if you had happened to turn on comments on

00:13:28 ◼   ► day one, I bet you would have had close to 100% thoughtful, meaningful comments. But then you

00:13:36 ◼   ► but then you would have had to suffer that gradual decline as people

00:13:40 ◼   ► it's like it's like uh...

00:13:41 ◼   ► it's like the if there was like uh... bridge overpass that nobody

00:13:46 ◼   ► saw there would be there be no graffiti on it right

00:13:49 ◼   ► but then like if they put it

00:13:50 ◼   ► by path under it

00:13:53 ◼   ► there'd be a ton of graffiti up there because it's not good

00:13:55 ◼   ► interesting target now

00:13:57 ◼   ► but uh...

00:13:59 ◼   ► you know it's funny as i've i've you know me i kinda get like my high horse

00:14:03 ◼   ► on some issues.

00:14:04 ◼   ► Oh, not you, Daniel.

00:14:05 ◼   ► That's probably why you've never been on my show before.

00:14:12 ◼   ► The first and last appearance on the talk show.

00:14:14 ◼   ► So let me get on my high horse.

00:14:16 ◼   ► Nobody has a higher horse than Daniel Johnson.

00:14:18 ◼   ► I have a very high horse.

00:14:19 ◼   ► I have a specialized staircase to get up on my high horse.

00:14:25 ◼   ► I've been the guy who defends comments on a philosophical level.

00:14:33 ◼   ► I've been like, "Oh, well, I owe everything to my comments because when I started Red

00:14:38 ◼   ► Sweater Blog, I had no readers."

00:14:40 ◼   ► It's like you're saying, Jon, a hundred readers maybe.

00:14:45 ◼   ► It took me a while to get a hundred readers.

00:14:47 ◼   ► I did have comments and I thought that it helped me to grow that small community.

00:14:51 ◼   ► I think that's true for a lot of people, but I did face this question when I started my

00:14:57 ◼   ► new blog, the BitSplitting blog, and I have to confess, I mean, I didn't make a big deal

00:15:03 ◼   ► out of it, but there's no comments on that blog.

00:15:06 ◼   ► I just kind of said, "You know what?

00:15:08 ◼   ► I'd give this a try."

00:15:11 ◼   ► So you can chalk that up to getting off my high horse, I guess.

00:15:17 ◼   ► You put that one down in the books.

00:15:19 ◼   ► Don't you think though that the rise of Twitter and the establishment of Twitter,

00:15:26 ◼   ► because Twitter came out in 2006 and really exploded in 2007, 2008 among our crowd.

00:15:34 ◼   ► By now it's so old that it's hard to imagine.

00:15:39 ◼   ► It's gotten to the point you can't imagine what life was like without it.

00:15:42 ◼   ► And it really does help though.

00:15:43 ◼   ► It's not the same as comments on your site.

00:15:46 ◼   ► It's not the same, but it's an interesting middle ground

00:15:49 ◼   ► because they're public and because you can safely assume

00:15:54 ◼   ► that anybody who might want a Twitter account has one.

00:15:59 ◼   ► - You're right.

00:16:00 ◼   ► Yeah, and I think that helps.

00:16:02 ◼   ► Maybe what you were getting at is it made it easier

00:16:05 ◼   ► for me to make that decision or to know

00:16:08 ◼   ► that I have a connection with people

00:16:09 ◼   ► who want to have a connection.

00:16:11 ◼   ► And it is valuable for it to be public.

00:16:14 ◼   ► I mean, I welcome email comments,

00:16:16 ◼   ► but there is, like you said, something to the public comments

00:16:20 ◼   ► being kind of on the record, and it helps the discourse,

00:16:24 ◼   ► I think, on both sides when it's working correctly.

00:16:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, but it definitely is discourse, you know?

00:16:30 ◼   ► And I think it definitely, you know, I mean,

00:16:32 ◼   ► I read almost all my, I mean, I can't keep up with my email,

00:16:39 ◼   ► but I can, I don't know, I think keeping up

00:16:41 ◼   ► with my Twitter is easy.

00:16:44 ◼   ► I think it's one of the greatest things.

00:16:47 ◼   ► And I think it's really helped make Darren Fireball a better site.

00:16:49 ◼   ► I really do.

00:16:50 ◼   ► So, yeah.

00:16:51 ◼   ► I really do.

00:16:52 ◼   ► But in a way that comments would not have.

00:16:57 ◼   ► Well, it's like the email.

00:16:59 ◼   ► So it's similar to the comparison to email in that it's the sort of predictable format

00:17:06 ◼   ► of Twitter feedback.

00:17:08 ◼   ► The reason you can stay caught up on Twitter messages is because you kind of know how to

00:17:13 ◼   ► parse each one. And you get an email and it's like three paragraphs long. You're like, "Oh,

00:17:18 ◼   ► God. What's in the first paragraph?"

00:17:22 ◼   ► I've read this and it's—I mean, I've read this. I've thought about this. And it's part

00:17:31 ◼   ► of the genius of Twitter. And I truly mean it. And it's in that sense of nobody gives

00:17:37 ◼   ► it the credit it deserves because it's so obvious, but it's only obvious in hindsight,

00:17:44 ◼   ► is that the forced brevity of Twitter means that you don't have to open messages to read

00:17:51 ◼   ► them because the thing you see in the list of tweets is the tweet because it's so short

00:17:59 ◼   ► you don't have to have a separate open mode versus what it is that's in the list.

00:18:06 ◼   ► It fits with the way that our minds are hooked up to read because you just scroll.

00:18:17 ◼   ► You just scroll through the thing and you see it all and read.

00:18:21 ◼   ► If you're a fast reader, you can really get through them quickly in a way that if your

00:18:28 ◼   ► Twitter client were set up like an email client, which would be the stupidest idea for a Twitter

00:18:32 ◼   ► app at all. But if it just showed, I don't know, you know, something like the equivalent

00:18:35 ◼   ► of a subject and you had to like just arrow through them one at a time to actually read

00:18:40 ◼   ► the tweets, I'd never be able to keep up. It's the fact that I can use my eyeballs rather

00:18:46 ◼   ► than anything else to keep up with them all. All I have to do is look at them to read them.

00:18:52 ◼   ► It's genius.

00:18:53 ◼   ► Right. Yeah, I agree. And speaking of my high horse, that's one of the many reasons that

00:18:57 ◼   ► I'm just passionately against these services like Tweet Longer or whatever.

00:19:09 ◼   ► To me, the acceptable transgression is a multi-tweet thought, ideally limited to two tweets.

00:19:20 ◼   ► Because then after that, it's like, "Okay, you should be writing a blog post or something."

00:19:23 ◼   ► But at least then it still has that characteristic.

00:19:27 ◼   ► And ideally if it's like too in rapid succession, then even for you or anybody else skimming

00:19:34 ◼   ► it, you still sort of read it completely visible as a contiguous thing.

00:19:39 ◼   ► But if you make somebody go on a read a link to read the rest of your Twitter thought,

00:19:44 ◼   ► that's just like...

00:19:45 ◼   ► Dave: Every time I see something like that, it makes me...

00:19:48 ◼   ► I get 50% of the way to unfollowing the person.

00:19:51 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly. It's much more so than... So yeah, back to the point of being able to skim

00:19:57 ◼   ► it and being able to process it, much more than maybe somebody you're following having

00:20:02 ◼   ► half of what they say be stuff you're not interested in. You can skim that.

00:20:09 ◼   ► And there's other genius things that have come about, like the evolution of Twitter,

00:20:13 ◼   ► where image attachments, which are really just URLs in the tweet, because the tweet

00:20:18 ◼   ► really just text. But putting the thumbnail of them in the tweet, it's great. It's such

00:20:26 ◼   ► a great, it's, you know, it sounds stupid. And again, it seems so obvious in hindsight.

00:20:30 ◼   ► But when when clients first started doing that, it felt a little wrong because it felt

00:20:34 ◼   ► like tweets were supposed to be just text. But in, you know, clearly, it's the right

00:20:38 ◼   ► thing to do.

00:20:39 ◼   ► Jared Ranere: Yeah, and that's that that's, you know, extended in the whole Twitter cards

00:20:43 ◼   ► thing, which I think, when it works, well, it works really well. Like another example

00:20:48 ◼   ► of that is App Store links.

00:20:50 ◼   ► Someone gives you this inscrutable App Store URL,

00:20:55 ◼   ► and then before you would just be like,

00:20:58 ◼   ► well, do I wanna click this thing?

00:20:59 ◼   ► Or now it just shows up, I think,

00:21:00 ◼   ► at least on the clients I use,

00:21:02 ◼   ► it shows up as a little thumbnail of the app.

00:21:05 ◼   ► And it's like, you can see that as kind of like a way

00:21:07 ◼   ► of Twitter and other companies moving in

00:21:12 ◼   ► on the style and formatting of people's tweets.

00:21:14 ◼   ► But when it's like, when it's kind of like,

00:21:16 ◼   ► when you take the step to go,

00:21:19 ◼   ► when you take the step of putting a URL in the content,

00:21:23 ◼   ► then I think you're kind of like inviting anybody

00:21:27 ◼   ► who can make that more digestible to readers.

00:21:30 ◼   ► It's like, go ahead, go for it.

00:21:32 ◼   ► Make that more digestible for my readers.

00:21:34 ◼   ► - I agree.

00:21:36 ◼   ► All right, let me take a break.

00:21:38 ◼   ► We've got three sponsors for this show,

00:21:40 ◼   ► so I better take a break for the first one.

00:21:43 ◼   ► I wanna tell you about Igloo.

00:21:46 ◼   ► Now they sponsored a show a couple weeks ago, I don't know if you heard it, but this is

00:21:50 ◼   ► a fantastic service. Short and sweet, Igloo is an intranet that you'll actually like.

00:21:59 ◼   ► Intranet sounds like such a 90s word, but it's still like a great thing. If you're a

00:22:04 ◼   ► company you need to have some kind of internal to your company web thing that is going to

00:22:09 ◼   ► keep everybody together and and you know private

00:22:14 ◼   ► and

00:22:16 ◼   ► all the old ones that i remember saying they're such there's just awful nineties

00:22:19 ◼   ► stuff igloo is totally new and it's really really modern

00:22:23 ◼   ► and it's just great

00:22:27 ◼   ► andy they have some new stuff just from a month ago that's new and here's the

00:22:31 ◼   ► best part the best part is you can sign up now and get an igloo

00:22:35 ◼   ► and start using it right now just sign up and start using it free

00:22:39 ◼   ► for up to ten people

00:22:41 ◼   ► so you can use it

00:22:42 ◼   ► seed just how cool it is

00:22:44 ◼   ► and i've up to ten people 'cause it's the collaboration with the other people

00:22:48 ◼   ► who you work with that really makes the things sing

00:22:51 ◼   ► up to ten people free absolutely free

00:22:54 ◼   ► uh... and then you can upgrade to a paid account later to add more people

00:22:58 ◼   ► and it's free has no ads and uh... totally respect your privacy because the

00:23:03 ◼   ► whole thing is built for business it's not you know some kind of face book like

00:23:06 ◼   ► thing where they're tracking you and showing you ads and stuff like that. All they want

00:23:10 ◼   ► to do is give you a great intranet that you want to pay for, which is, I think it's just

00:23:16 ◼   ► the way business should be run. They've got a sandwich video. I think the sandwich video

00:23:20 ◼   ► last time they sponsored the show wasn't quite out yet, but it's great. Our pal Adam Lisa

00:23:25 ◼   ► Gore made a video for them. It's very funny. And, you know, like this is what makes Adam's

00:23:30 ◼   ► video so great. It's funny, but it also genuinely explains, you know, the product probably better

00:23:34 ◼   ► than I can. So you're saying you get 10 users for free? Yeah, 10 users for free to sign

00:23:43 ◼   ► up and you can use it. And the sign up you're using it instantly. You could actually if

00:23:48 ◼   ► you signed up when I started reading this sponsorship thing, you'd probably already

00:23:51 ◼   ► have your igloo. When you do want to upgrade because you have more people on your team,

00:23:55 ◼   ► it's only $12 per user per month if you want to use it with your whole company. And they've

00:24:01 ◼   ► They've got new templates and they have Typekit built in.

00:24:05 ◼   ► So it's like, you know, this thing, it's not like, hey, everybody's igloo looks the same.

00:24:10 ◼   ► It's, you know, Typekit.

00:24:11 ◼   ► You get to choose from all the Adobe fonts that are in Typekit in terms of like styling

00:24:16 ◼   ► it and making it look the way you want it.

00:24:19 ◼   ► The responsive design for the thing, so it looks great on your phone, looks great on

00:24:23 ◼   ► your iPad, looks great on your 27-inch iMac, all with these templates that, you know, you

00:24:29 ◼   ► have to code them up. They're already there. And they've got big, big improvements like your IT

00:24:35 ◼   ► department. If you're the, you know, person who runs the internet out there listening to the show,

00:24:39 ◼   ► and you're thinking, maybe I should do this, but you've got like this IT department that's going

00:24:42 ◼   ► to have to approve it. They're going to be right on board with it. They've got clients. Igloo has

00:24:46 ◼   ► clients like, let me see here. They've got RSA, Kimberly Clark, that's the Kleenex people, IDC,

00:24:53 ◼   ► I mean, you know, big, big corporations, RSA is the literally like their security people.

00:24:58 ◼   ► so I mean that you know that's pretty that's a void of confidence I would say

00:25:05 ◼   ► yeah so you know anything you have an internal blog internal communication

00:25:10 ◼   ► little internal like your own like little internal company Twitter type

00:25:14 ◼   ► thing but it's got to be can't use Twitter because it's internal you got to

00:25:18 ◼   ► keep it internal igloo can give it to you so check them out here's where you

00:25:21 ◼   ► go igloo software comm slash the talk show igloo just like you know the house

00:25:28 ◼   ► the Eskimos 11 igloo software.com slash the talk show and they'll know you came

00:25:33 ◼   ► from the show and my thanks to them for for being the first sponsor so let's

00:25:41 ◼   ► talk about the stuff that you're working on now alright let me make sure that

00:25:44 ◼   ► I've got it all straight because it's it's it's a big list so you've got red

00:25:48 ◼   ► sweater software correct now that's Mars edit you've got the what's the crossword

00:25:55 ◼   ► up black ink yeah black ink famous famous among nerds fast scripts for yeah

00:26:03 ◼   ► fast I've got fast scripts that's it that's sort of overlooked because it is

00:26:07 ◼   ► that paid is there a free version and a paid version or is it just free yeah

00:26:12 ◼   ► it's free and then you pay if you want to have more than ten keyboard shortcuts

00:26:15 ◼   ► so that's the that's the sort of cut off there hmm but none of that stuff is

00:26:21 ◼   ► really the all that stuff that's not Mars Edit is like backup plans sort of

00:26:28 ◼   ► you know like I don't know it's um it's not making it's not paying for my it's

00:26:32 ◼   ► not paying for my kids education or anything all right so that's red sweater

00:26:36 ◼   ► software yeah and then you've got core intuition which is a podcast you've been

00:26:40 ◼   ► doing with a friend of the show manton reese since I don't know at least I

00:26:45 ◼   ► I don't know forever five years as of when as of this past Wednesday

00:26:49 ◼   ► But it's is it's is it?

00:26:52 ◼   ► Semi-regular, it's like whenever you guys feel like it or do you guys have a schedule? Yeah?

00:26:57 ◼   ► We're on a strict fairly strict once a week schedule now

00:27:00 ◼   ► Thanks to actually you know speaking of sponsors

00:27:04 ◼   ► Thanks to finally just like biting the bullet and taking sponsors

00:27:07 ◼   ► and that was kind of a wake-up call for me because I think I've been like gradually coming out of

00:27:15 ◼   ► growing up on use net

00:27:17 ◼   ► You know the late 80s early 90s thinking of the internet as a

00:27:23 ◼   ► Non-commercial space obviously, I do all my commerce on the internet

00:27:28 ◼   ► I've grown I've grown past that but there's been this kind of block for me for years

00:27:32 ◼   ► Like you don't you know, you don't put ads on things or something like that

00:27:35 ◼   ► Well, I was wrong about that but add that to my list of things. I was wrong about John your high horse

00:27:40 ◼   ► Yeah, take that off my high horse. My high horse is load is getting lighter

00:27:44 ◼   ► But it's been great for us to have sponsors not just because you know gives us a little money to keep the you know

00:27:51 ◼   ► The momentum going but it's also a kind of a vote of confidence for the show. So yeah, that's true. That is true

00:27:58 ◼   ► Now you've also got now this is the thing that's relatively recent is you started a new

00:28:04 ◼   ► Blog and now it's a podcast to under the bit splitting

00:28:09 ◼   ► Brand bit that's witting org. I guess that's the home of both really

00:28:14 ◼   ► Yeah, it's splitting org and then I just tucked podcast into slash podcast

00:28:19 ◼   ► That all came about because you know as you remember John over the years I've been blogging from

00:28:26 ◼   ► red sweater blog my company's blog and

00:28:29 ◼   ► Being up on my high horse and doing all my ranting

00:28:33 ◼   ► it always felt a little uncomfortable to me to have that share space with

00:28:38 ◼   ► with what is supposedly like a somewhat

00:28:43 ◼   ► issue-neutral software company.

00:28:47 ◼   ► It was kind of a mixed blessing, 'cause it was great.

00:28:53 ◼   ► When I would blog about something and it got some attention

00:28:55 ◼   ► and people were linking it around,

00:28:58 ◼   ► then I think there was a non-negligible benefit

00:29:03 ◼   ► to the company, to my income,

00:29:05 ◼   ► because I wasn't charging for anything on my blog,

00:29:08 ◼   ► I wasn't having ads on my blog,

00:29:10 ◼   ► but people would go there, they'd say,

00:29:13 ◼   ► "Oh, you got products, I'm gonna buy your product."

00:29:15 ◼   ► It helped, but there was always this nagging feeling

00:29:20 ◼   ► either that I shouldn't blog about something,

00:29:22 ◼   ► I shouldn't rant against Apple, I shouldn't complain about,

00:29:29 ◼   ► the most obvious types of things is you shouldn't complain

00:29:32 ◼   ► about customer behavior or something.

00:29:35 ◼   ► Yeah, it's a delicate balance. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Especially

00:29:40 ◼   ► – and I think for you personally, your personality in particular, I mean, as I've said several

00:29:46 ◼   ► times, you like to get up on a high horse once in a while. And that's a little bit

00:29:50 ◼   ► more – it's a precarious spot when you want to – I mean, it doesn't even have

00:29:59 ◼   ► to be politics. I mean, in some sense, it's all politics. It's not necessarily national

00:30:04 ◼   ► fair politics, but talking about the App Store is political in a sense.

00:30:08 ◼   ► Yes, in like the classic sense.

00:30:10 ◼   ► Right.

00:30:11 ◼   ► But you want to separate that from your software business.

00:30:15 ◼   ► Yeah, and then like lots of things that just didn't – trying to take a step back and

00:30:21 ◼   ► say not only like is this appropriate for say the Red Sweater blog, but as the company

00:30:30 ◼   ► company being just me. But nonetheless, as the company gets more popular and has a wider

00:30:35 ◼   ► reach and more people have heard about it, they go to the site and they download the

00:30:39 ◼   ► products and they think, "Oh, I should maybe keep up with what this company is doing."

00:30:43 ◼   ► Look at the blog and see like, "Well, this is what Nokia is doing wrong." What the heck

00:30:49 ◼   ► does that have to do with anything?

00:30:51 ◼   ► Right. Even if it's not about avoiding touchy subjects, it's that you somehow feel like

00:30:58 ◼   ► the red sweater blog really ought to be on topic for users of red sweater software. And

00:31:05 ◼   ► anything that's not really on topic for the users or would be users of the software is

00:31:12 ◼   ► potentially a distraction.

00:31:14 ◼   ► Yeah, and then the reverse is true as well as I was lucky enough to start gaining this

00:31:19 ◼   ► readership of people who are kind of maybe not even interested in the products but interested

00:31:24 ◼   ► what I have to say, I started feeling like, "Oh, they're not going to like this update

00:31:31 ◼   ► about fast scripts."

00:31:35 ◼   ► It dis-serves both audiences.

00:31:37 ◼   ► Not to have a distinction between the two dis-serves the customers who just want to

00:31:41 ◼   ► keep up to date with company news or company-related stuff and the people who stumbled in out of

00:31:48 ◼   ► the tech, greater tech world and wanted to keep up on my rants and perspectives.

00:31:55 ◼   ► So I'm pretty happy with the way it's worked out so far.

00:31:58 ◼   ► I kind of just did a soft launch of Bitsplitting, the blog, several months ago now, I guess.

00:32:07 ◼   ► Another part of this is I'm not really sure how much I want to blog, but it's really great

00:32:11 ◼   ► to have an outlet at that moment where you're like, "Oh yeah, I have something to do."

00:32:18 ◼   ► say and alluding back to the Twitter thing, when it doesn't fit in one tweet or maybe

00:32:24 ◼   ► at most two tweets, that's when you really need some outlet.

00:32:29 ◼   ► I think you mostly do everything through Daring Fireball, but I know you also have a Tumblr.

00:32:36 ◼   ► There must be some occasions when you're like, "This doesn't really work for..."

00:32:43 ◼   ► I guess with Tumblr in particular, it's probably your outlet.

00:32:46 ◼   ► You don't usually put photos up during Fireball, but anybody who has known you or even followed

00:32:57 ◼   ► your work knows that that's not because you don't like photos.

00:32:59 ◼   ► I haven't posted to my Tumblr since November 2009.

00:33:05 ◼   ► I guess that dates me.

00:33:07 ◼   ► I've been waiting patiently, Jon.

00:33:10 ◼   ► I think there's only three posts on it.

00:33:14 ◼   ► Maybe I filed that away.

00:33:16 ◼   ► Although I did have the one I did have the other one that fraidy cats one

00:33:19 ◼   ► Where it was I was just posting links to politicians who were?

00:33:26 ◼   ► Endorsing policies that to me implied that they were afraid of terrorists. You know, right?

00:33:32 ◼   ► fraidy cats

00:33:34 ◼   ► I think that that tumblr.com but I haven't updated that one and that's and that's an example of something that you wouldn't shy away from

00:33:41 ◼   ► on a like occasional basis on daring fireball

00:33:45 ◼   ► But you still kind of probably probably acknowledge that that's not it's not something you want a whole, you know

00:33:50 ◼   ► You don't want to like clog up the Daring Fireball with that. So that's probably what led to something like that

00:33:55 ◼   ► But you know in 2008 I did I did I went pretty strong on

00:33:59 ◼   ► anti

00:34:01 ◼   ► Sour Palin in

00:34:06 ◼   ► 2008 yeah

00:34:08 ◼   ► By far and away if you look back if you like graft every post to Daring Fireball

00:34:12 ◼   ► all for the last 10 years and which ones were political. That there was this concentration

00:34:20 ◼   ► in 2008 in a run-up. But I don't regret it at all. And I would explain to people at the

00:34:25 ◼   ► time that I seriously thought that this was dangerous literally to the world. This was

00:34:33 ◼   ► a mentally unbalanced and unfit person who was possibly going to be very close to being

00:34:39 ◼   ► the leader of the free world. And I don't regret it at all. And I think in the years

00:34:44 ◼   ► since it's been proven right that the woman is like a nut job.

00:34:49 ◼   ► Yeah. I know what you mean. There's something to it almost being like a national emergency.

00:34:57 ◼   ► And I guess as you say, it's totally hyperbolic to say it.

00:35:03 ◼   ► And there are some people who are so – they're hooked up wrong and they can't see it because

00:35:08 ◼   ► you know, and I would like to think, I really would, I think I would, that if the Democratic

00:35:15 ◼   ► Party, which I more closely associate with politically, nominated for Vice President,

00:35:21 ◼   ► someone of equivalent mental stability and ability, that I would recognize it and think,

00:35:30 ◼   ► well, this is nuts, and even though I disagree with the other party, I've got to vote for

00:35:34 ◼   ► and endorse the other party because I, you know, far more important than whether I agree

00:35:38 ◼   ► with the person is whether the person is dangerous in that job.

00:35:43 ◼   ► You can't, I mean, you can't have a maniac as, you know, freaking vice president.

00:35:47 ◼   ► But, you know, and, you know, it's just the fact though that I was tweeting or posting

00:35:53 ◼   ► political stuff, you know, and it wasn't like I filled up the site with it, but, you

00:35:57 ◼   ► know.

00:35:58 ◼   ► I'd point the stuff out, you know, like when it came out that she, you know, didn't

00:36:04 ◼   ► read newspapers, couldn't name a magazine that she reads. You know what I mean? I pointed

00:36:08 ◼   ► out, like, listen, this is the truth. This is a person who doesn't even read magazines

00:36:12 ◼   ► or newspapers.

00:36:13 ◼   ► That's what we need in America, John. A fresh tape.

00:36:17 ◼   ► Some people went nuts on that, but I think most people understood. Every once in a while,

00:36:24 ◼   ► I get something that's seemingly off-topic, but it's not. What Darren Farbawl is, is what

00:36:28 ◼   ► I'm interested in.

00:36:29 ◼   ► Right, it happens to be a personal interests blog that slants heavily towards computers

00:36:36 ◼   ► because you're so dang interested in them.

00:36:39 ◼   ► Right, it's so slanted towards computers and Apple stuff, not because I keep it on focus,

00:36:44 ◼   ► it's because I'm so warped that that's what I think about all the time.

00:36:50 ◼   ► It's a disservice to the film and sports and politics that since computer interests have

00:36:59 ◼   ► dominated.

00:37:02 ◼   ► So I think it's possibly just a sign of just how bad I am at doing more than one thing

00:37:09 ◼   ► at a time.

00:37:10 ◼   ► But it seems to me like you've bitten off a lot, and no pun intended with bit-splitting,

00:37:17 ◼   ► but with a new blog and a podcast for the blog, which has really been great.

00:37:22 ◼   ► I mean, and you've really had some great guests recently.

00:37:25 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:37:27 ◼   ► I mean Jackie Chang is great.

00:37:29 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:37:30 ◼   ► I got to get her on the talk show.

00:37:32 ◼   ► Amanda Wickstead, great, great programmer.

00:37:37 ◼   ► She's like one of the first programmers who like I loved being able to...

00:37:42 ◼   ► Because Jonas, my son, he loves Pac-Man and she did the Pac-Man port for iPhone, which

00:37:47 ◼   ► is like the only Pac-Man Jonas knew until we finally found an arcade somewhere where

00:37:52 ◼   ► he could play the real thing.

00:37:53 ◼   ► But I was like, "I know the woman who put this on the iPhone."

00:37:58 ◼   ► And he was like, "Really?"

00:37:59 ◼   ► And I was like, "Yeah."

00:38:00 ◼   ► And he was like, "Wow."

00:38:01 ◼   ► And then he actually seemed to think I have a decent job.

00:38:03 ◼   ► Right.

00:38:04 ◼   ► Jonas Gruber finally learns that you actually know some real celebrities.

00:38:10 ◼   ► Right.

00:38:11 ◼   ► The woman who made Pac-Man for iPhone.

00:38:14 ◼   ► But it's a great show, and you're doing good.

00:38:16 ◼   ► But then you've got the Manton thing, and you're still running Red Sweater Software,

00:38:21 ◼   ► which I presume is really your main line of thinking.

00:38:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a little bit of a,

00:38:29 ◼   ► it's probably a little bit of a folly

00:38:32 ◼   ► to take on all these things, to be honest.

00:38:34 ◼   ► But I don't know,

00:38:38 ◼   ► there's a certain freedom and recklessness

00:38:43 ◼   ► of true independence that can lead to this.

00:38:48 ◼   ► And I kind of say to my wife about, for instance, the BitSplitting podcast.

00:38:54 ◼   ► That's a lot of work.

00:38:56 ◼   ► And we always just joke that maybe it'll be like a British TV series, right?

00:39:03 ◼   ► Where it's like, well, it ran for 22 episodes and then it never aired again.

00:39:08 ◼   ► And it's kind of like the knowledge that that could happen is sort of what keeps me a little

00:39:13 ◼   ► bit sane on that front.

00:39:14 ◼   ► But Marco and Sir Kusa and Casey Liss had that idea with their car podcast, where they

00:39:22 ◼   ► started a car podcast explicitly up front where they said, "We think we're going to

00:39:27 ◼   ► do this for like five or six episodes because we think we've got like five or six episodes

00:39:32 ◼   ► of Car Talk to talk about."

00:39:35 ◼   ► But that's an interesting idea to me because if you come into it up front with the idea

00:39:42 ◼   ► that it's going to be a miniseries rather than an open-ended do this forever thing,

00:39:49 ◼   ► it frees you to do things that you feel like you don't really have infinite content for.

00:39:58 ◼   ► I feel like a lot of things on the internet feel like you shouldn't, at least I do, I

00:40:05 ◼   ► feel like you shouldn't start it if you're not going to keep up with it.

00:40:09 ◼   ► Yes, and I think that's the nagging fear part of it.

00:40:14 ◼   ► I actually started, I actually committed to doing the podcast and I was really foolish

00:40:19 ◼   ► when I started.

00:40:20 ◼   ► I was thinking I'm going to do it weekly.

00:40:22 ◼   ► And you know how that is doing this show.

00:40:24 ◼   ► It's like a week goes by very quickly.

00:40:27 ◼   ► It doesn't, and again, I have a great job and it's fantastic, but it is true.

00:40:35 ◼   ► It sounds like upfront a week, doing a podcast once a week is not that big a deal, but it

00:40:39 ◼   ► seems like, again, lately I've been recording on Fridays. We're recording this on Friday,

00:40:44 ◼   ► the 31st of May. And it just seems like when it comes to the podcast, it's like, "Well,

00:40:49 ◼   ► it's Friday. It's time to do the show." And then the next week rolls around and it's Monday

00:40:54 ◼   ► and I feel like, "Well, the podcast is at the end of the week. I can work on all this

00:40:57 ◼   ► other stuff." And then I close my eyes and next thing I know, it's Thursday night and

00:41:01 ◼   ► I got to figure out who the hell I'm going to ask to be on the show. And I can't believe

00:41:07 ◼   ► It feels like I just recorded the show with Merlin yesterday.

00:41:10 ◼   ► Right.

00:41:11 ◼   ► It catches up with you fast.

00:41:12 ◼   ► And I also have antagonists, friendly antagonists, like our friend Gus Mueller from Fly Meat,

00:41:18 ◼   ► who has been just hitting the ball out of the park lately with his Acorn 4 launch.

00:41:25 ◼   ► He's in this group of so-called indie Mac developers like me, who are more or less just

00:41:31 ◼   ► one-person companies trying to take a crack at it.

00:41:35 ◼   ► And we've been sort of like, for years now, we've been sort of motivating each other,

00:41:43 ◼   ► kind of comparing notes, like, "What are you going to do next?"

00:41:46 ◼   ► Trying to keep each other going in the direction.

00:41:49 ◼   ► And he has just been on my case lately about two things—not shipping and "Why the hell

00:41:57 ◼   ► am I doing all these podcasts?"

00:41:59 ◼   ► So he has some wisdom there, I think.

00:42:01 ◼   ► on the flip side, it's like one of the reasons I'm doing the podcasts is I have this freedom.

00:42:08 ◼   ► I can do this. It's like, I said when I announced that I was starting the BitSplitting podcast,

00:42:14 ◼   ► I'm like, I'm a fan of Terry Gross for 15 years or whatever. I've been listening.

00:42:20 ◼   ► If you would have asked me 15 years ago, what are the odds of you, Daniel Jalka, doing a show someday

00:42:29 ◼   ► vaguely comparable to a Terry Gross interview show. And I said, "That's impossible. I'm

00:42:36 ◼   ► a computer programmer. I work at Apple. I have no broadcasting experience. I have no

00:42:43 ◼   ► FCC license. I'm not going to go study the FCC license rules, and I'm not going to go

00:42:50 ◼   ► do an internship at the college radio station so that I can get the FCC license, so that

00:42:56 ◼   ► I can start the local interview show so that I could eventually work my way up to having

00:43:01 ◼   ► anything like a Terry Gross interview show.

00:43:03 ◼   ► Right.

00:43:04 ◼   ► Part of it, part of the reason we're doing it, I mean, it's truth.

00:43:07 ◼   ► And you know, Mule definitely helps me because they handle the editing and the hosting and

00:43:13 ◼   ► stuff like that.

00:43:14 ◼   ► So it's a lot of the busy work is off my shoulders so that I can put more time in Daring Fireball

00:43:20 ◼   ► and less time on the infrastructure of this show.

00:43:26 ◼   ► I don't know why for whatever reason I don't mind I would mind doing all of that for the podcast

00:43:31 ◼   ► But I don't mind the fact that I am literally the only person who works on daring fireball

00:43:36 ◼   ► And so when there are like hosting problems or something like that that it's on my shoulders

00:43:41 ◼   ► I don't mind that for some reason, but I couldn't handle - I don't know

00:43:45 ◼   ► Well, like I was saying I definitely appreciate the that Manton does the the most most of the technical work on

00:43:53 ◼   ► core intuition. I do some of the, you know, also kind of annoying work like some of the sponsor booking and

00:44:01 ◼   ► invoicing and junk like that. It all adds up and at the end of the day, I sometimes do say, "Wait a minute,

00:44:06 ◼   ► I spent like

00:44:07 ◼   ► hours today in

00:44:09 ◼   ► doing this stuff that's not really my quote-unquote job."

00:44:14 ◼   ► But, like, just getting back to that though, this is,

00:44:19 ◼   ► This is a luxury that you can also just kind of enjoy and say well, you know, it's not my so-called job, but

00:44:25 ◼   ► While I have I'm afforded this opportunity, you know being on Twitter all day long. It's not really my job either but

00:44:33 ◼   ► It's kind of fun and it it opens up it opens up opportunities

00:44:39 ◼   ► You didn't know would be there a lot of this though

00:44:41 ◼   ► it really is you know and I think we it's easy to overlook it as the years go on and we get more and more used

00:44:47 ◼   ► to just assuming that the internet exists, but it's in a lowercase L libertarian sense,

00:44:54 ◼   ► the internet really does show, it proves a lot of libertarian principles that the fact

00:45:04 ◼   ► that you don't need an FCC license to launch a podcast, you just need a web server that

00:45:10 ◼   ► can serve MP3 and AAC audio files and an RSS feed that you can put the things into.

00:45:19 ◼   ► You really don't need to do much to get it started.

00:45:23 ◼   ► You really just need to do the work of actually recording shows and you can have a show.

00:45:28 ◼   ► It's led to a fantastic world where you can find stuff that is of niche interest to you

00:45:38 ◼   ► as a listener and just fill up your hours with as much of it as you want.

00:45:42 ◼   ► But I wouldn't have this show. I mean, this show is financially successful. I mean, we really had

00:45:52 ◼   ► great, great sponsors. I'll probably interrupt in a minute and tell you about another one. But

00:45:56 ◼   ► I wouldn't do it if I had to go through, jump through hoops like you would in the days before

00:46:05 ◼   ► the internet to do a show. I mean, I don't even know how I would go about it. I don't

00:46:08 ◼   ► I don't even know how radio, you'd have to have a radio station.

00:46:11 ◼   ► I don't know who would hire me.

00:46:12 ◼   ► I mean, it wouldn't happen.

00:46:13 ◼   ► Well, and you know, the related interesting thing is that no matter what your kind of

00:46:19 ◼   ► like pursuit is, if it involves getting your message or your content out to people, you

00:46:25 ◼   ► no longer have the excuse or the sort of like approval metric of like being quote unquote

00:46:35 ◼   ► being having your show bought by ABC, having your book published by Penguin.

00:46:42 ◼   ► And that's kind of like, that's that like, yeah, it's the libertarian, you know, like

00:46:47 ◼   ► you said, lowercase L libertarianism, where there's no authority making the

00:46:52 ◼   ► call. But then, of course, it's all on us as individuals who decide that one day,

00:46:58 ◼   ► like, yeah, I could do a radio show. We don't have to work our way through any

00:47:02 ◼   ► ranks to do that, which is kind of terrifying too, because it's like, for

00:47:09 ◼   ► instance, I could write the so-called Great American Novel and get it out to

00:47:14 ◼   ► thousands of people, and it could be a really terrible idea. But that is

00:47:21 ◼   ► that is the that's the new way, I think. So we have to just give things a try and

00:47:25 ◼   ► hope that you're on the right track. Yeah, totally. All right, let me tell you about

00:47:29 ◼   ► about our second sponsor and this is great. It's Pocket Informant and it's from a company

00:47:37 ◼   ► called Web IS and it's a full featured planner that lets you manage your events, tasks, notes

00:47:43 ◼   ► and contacts all in one place. Think about pre-iPhone, pre-PDAs. Remember when everybody

00:47:51 ◼   ► when you carry around those like a Franklin Covey planner type thing, you know, a little

00:47:56 ◼   ► notebook that had calendar pages and note pages and a Rolodex type contact thing. It's

00:48:02 ◼   ► the digital version of that in one app. And so instead of having a separate calendar app

00:48:07 ◼   ► and a to-do app and a notes app or something like that, it is the equivalent of all that

00:48:12 ◼   ► in one app. And they just come out with version 3.0. I've been beta testing it and it's really,

00:48:19 ◼   ► really polished and impressive. It's a really impressive app.

00:48:27 ◼   ► I think the best part about it is the way that it lets you see everything at once. If

00:48:34 ◼   ► you've got a lot going on, you've got a lot of to-dos, you've got a lot of stuff on your

00:48:38 ◼   ► calendar and stuff like that, and you just want to see what the hell is going on the

00:48:41 ◼   ► next day or two, this app gives you the view for that. It's really, really interesting.

00:48:48 ◼   ► It also, now this is an iPhone app, integrates with the calendar and reminders on your phone.

00:48:56 ◼   ► It syncs with Google calendars and tasks.

00:48:59 ◼   ► It also optionally, if you want, syncs with Toodle-Do, it syncs with Evernote.

00:49:05 ◼   ► All of your events and tasks can be shown together on the same calendar or you can filter

00:49:09 ◼   ► down just to what you want to focus on.

00:49:11 ◼   ► So if you just want to see your notes, you can just see your notes.

00:49:14 ◼   ► If you just want to see to do little checkbox things, you can just, the little tab right

00:49:19 ◼   ► at the bottom, one tab, you'll filter down just to that.

00:49:23 ◼   ► Search searches everything.

00:49:24 ◼   ► So if you're looking for a thing and you know that has something to do with Jalkit, well,

00:49:27 ◼   ► there's not going to be a lot of matches for that.

00:49:29 ◼   ► Just hit search Jalkit and it's going to show just the things involving Daniel Jalkit.

00:49:35 ◼   ► I assume everybody out there has at least a few tasks related to you.

00:49:38 ◼   ► It sure feels like it these days.

00:49:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:42 ◼   ► for half the people out there probably gonna be on your podcast.

00:49:45 ◼   ► They've got smart task filters.

00:49:49 ◼   ► And now this is an interesting thing.

00:49:51 ◼   ► It lets you create custom groupings of tasks that you'd like to see.

00:49:55 ◼   ► So you can have this big pile of everything that you ever want to do.

00:49:58 ◼   ► And this is a big list.

00:49:59 ◼   ► But with these smart filters, you can filter them down to these little sub lists

00:50:04 ◼   ► to focus on the ones that are related together.

00:50:07 ◼   ► You have a today view so you can just look at the stuff you want to do today.

00:50:12 ◼   ► Natural language entry so you can just type in "meat bob for coffee" every Friday at 6 and the right thing happens.

00:50:21 ◼   ► It creates, you type that and it creates a recurring task on your calendars at 6 p.m. that says, you know, "meat bob for coffee".

00:50:30 ◼   ► Every day it'll just show up.

00:50:32 ◼   ► They've got rich text formatting, which on iOS, I mean, you know this, it's like I don't

00:50:38 ◼   ► even know how they pulled that off.

00:50:40 ◼   ► So you can set your own fonts, you can set colors, really, really well done.

00:50:46 ◼   ► Even just little touches.

00:50:47 ◼   ► This is the thing that really shows that it's a 3.0, is that they've got weather integrated

00:50:53 ◼   ► and it's a great, the weather stuff is great.

00:50:55 ◼   ► You just look at today and it just gives you the weather.

00:50:57 ◼   ► And if you want more information, you can expand that and get more weather.

00:51:01 ◼   ► sorts of stuff. It's really, really great. Check it out. Now here's where you go. Pocket

00:51:06 ◼   ► informant.com slash talk show pocket informant.com slash the talk show. Version 3.0 is brand

00:51:16 ◼   ► new. So if you've ever looked at it before, you want to look at it again. And iPad version,

00:51:24 ◼   ► of course, they've got it because I'm telling you, it's version 3.0. They've really got

00:51:27 ◼   ► their act together. And the iPad version really, really, to me, gives you that same sort of

00:51:33 ◼   ► overview that you could get from the old days of using those physical desk planners because

00:51:38 ◼   ► you can see so much. So go check it out. My thanks to Pocket Informant for sponsoring

00:51:44 ◼   ► the show.

00:51:50 ◼   ► So back to your stuff.

00:51:53 ◼   ► So here's a question for you as the guy who writes Mars Edit, which you didn't start.

00:52:01 ◼   ► That was a Brent Simmons app.

00:52:04 ◼   ► You took over it, bought it from Brent.

00:52:08 ◼   ► How long have you been doing Mars Edit way longer now than Brent did Mars Edit?

00:52:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:13 ◼   ► It's been six years, I think, almost.

00:52:18 ◼   ► Maybe six years.

00:52:19 ◼   ► track but yes there was a point in which I surpassed I think Brent maybe started

00:52:24 ◼   ► in 2002 2003 and then I took it over in 2007 I believe so that's in a while I

00:52:35 ◼   ► it's just funny I don't because it came out and I used it immediately I don't

00:52:42 ◼   ► remember how I posted to during fireball before Mars at it from my Mac I guess I

00:52:48 ◼   ► I used the web interface to moveable type.

00:52:52 ◼   ► I can't, 'cause it must, I guess.

00:52:55 ◼   ► - Maybe write in BB Edit and copy and paste?

00:52:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, I guess that's what I did,

00:52:58 ◼   ► is I'd write in BB Edit and then paste it

00:53:00 ◼   ► into the text fields of moveable type.

00:53:05 ◼   ► - It doesn't seem likely you would have,

00:53:07 ◼   ► I mean, 'cause let's be fair,

00:53:09 ◼   ► the editing interfaces on these web-hosted blogs

00:53:12 ◼   ► have gotten a lot better, but that long ago,

00:53:15 ◼   ► I can't imagine you composing like a Fireball-length essay.

00:53:20 ◼   ► - Well, the other thing too is that Mars had it,

00:53:23 ◼   ► 'cause if it came out in 2003,

00:53:24 ◼   ► it was the, and this fits with my memory,

00:53:27 ◼   ► is that I didn't start the linked list part

00:53:30 ◼   ► of "Daring Fireball" until 2004.

00:53:33 ◼   ► So all I had were the full articles from 2002 to 2003.

00:53:37 ◼   ► So it wasn't six, seven posts a day.

00:53:41 ◼   ► it was two, three, maybe four posts a week,

00:53:46 ◼   ► but probably more like two or three posts a week.

00:53:49 ◼   ► And so it, I actually literally think

00:53:54 ◼   ► that the existence of Mars Edit

00:53:57 ◼   ► made "Daring Fireball" what it is today,

00:54:01 ◼   ► because without it,

00:54:03 ◼   ► I would have never started the linked list.

00:54:05 ◼   ► I wouldn't do it if I had to do it

00:54:07 ◼   ► through the web interface and movable type.

00:54:09 ◼   ► - Right, that's-- - It never would have

00:54:10 ◼   ► occurred to me to do it because it would have seemed like such an enormous pain in the ass.

00:54:14 ◼   ► Yeah, you don't want anything where there's sort of the shorter and more off-the-cuff

00:54:23 ◼   ► thing you're publishing is in that respect.

00:54:26 ◼   ► That's where the friction of going to the web can become the most grating.

00:54:31 ◼   ► I think that's an interesting point.

00:54:33 ◼   ► What's funny is it's also--there's different things that drive people to something like

00:54:38 ◼   ► something like Mars Edit, but the opposite is true when people are used to just writing

00:54:43 ◼   ► the long-form stuff in the web browser.

00:54:46 ◼   ► Over the years, I don't know how many copies I've sold to people who just had the "browser

00:54:52 ◼   ► eats your content" bug happen.

00:54:54 ◼   ► Again, that's something that happens far, far less than it used to.

00:55:01 ◼   ► It's interesting that you could have the experience of it just being very pertinent to you in

00:55:07 ◼   ► that sense of just like quickly getting stuff up there that would be too much trouble to

00:55:12 ◼   ► kind of go and log in to do. But then on the other hand, it's also very, it's very useful

00:55:18 ◼   ► to people who want that like I wrote this on my Mac, saved it on my Mac, and it's not

00:55:23 ◼   ► going anywhere. Kind of the long form stuff as well.

00:55:28 ◼   ► Now, when Brent was doing it, I know that Brent and you know, and this is one of those

00:55:36 ◼   ► things where maybe Brent is almost, you know, he's too sensitive and overthought it. But

00:55:40 ◼   ► his idea was that if he's writing a generic blog editor that tries to support every blog

00:55:48 ◼   ► or even blog type CMS that has a remote editing API support, that he needed to be neutral

00:55:57 ◼   ► towards them all. And so his own blog, he wrote his own blog software for so that instead

00:56:03 ◼   ► of say using WordPress and then people say, "Well, you use WordPress so that's why your

00:56:08 ◼   ► app works better with WordPress than blah, blah, blah."

00:56:11 ◼   ► Whereas the truth is it works better with WordPress because WordPress has better API

00:56:14 ◼   ► support than some other thing.

00:56:17 ◼   ► Right.

00:56:18 ◼   ► Yeah, I always kind of thought that was interesting, that stance he took.

00:56:23 ◼   ► And I think I still don't quite get it.

00:56:26 ◼   ► I think he overthought it.

00:56:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:29 ◼   ► And there's also, try to look at it from Brent's point of view, where he was so in the midst

00:56:37 ◼   ► of this big, he was a big pillar of this kind of emerging blogging, RSS type thing.

00:56:49 ◼   ► I think a lot of people were paying attention to what Brent did and he probably felt that.

00:56:56 ◼   ► My attitude about that has been almost diametrically opposite because, and sort of like lends itself

00:57:03 ◼   ► to my interest in like doing lots of different projects, at least for, you know, lots of

00:57:10 ◼   ► different blogs, at least for a while I tried to make a conscious effort to have separate

00:57:14 ◼   ► projects on separate systems.

00:57:17 ◼   ► So to be able to say, "Okay, this is my WordPress blog.

00:57:21 ◼   ► This is my Blogspot blog.

00:57:28 ◼   ► And then I even tried to do a Tumblr blog.

00:57:32 ◼   ► I actually tried to start a Tumblr blog recently and then got bit by the inability to add images

00:57:39 ◼   ► from Mars Edit.

00:57:42 ◼   ► But I had the opposite attitude, which is I'm not going to understand what these customers

00:57:48 ◼   ► are running into unless I actually try to use this system that they're using.

00:57:54 ◼   ► I didn't think I could really appreciate what people wanted to get out of the app with,

00:57:59 ◼   ► say, WordPress, unless I had a WordPress blog.

00:58:02 ◼   ► Yeah, that makes sense to me.

00:58:05 ◼   ► What are you using for BitSplitting?

00:58:07 ◼   ► I'm using WordPress for that.

00:58:12 ◼   ► the fact of the matter is I've ended up using WordPress more consistently across my sites,

00:58:17 ◼   ► in part because it has that level of support through the API that some systems aren't quite at.

00:58:26 ◼   ► But also just, you know, I'm probably an example of, in part, why WordPress is so successful.

00:58:34 ◼   ► You can install it on almost any server. If you host it yourself, you can customize it. And there's

00:58:39 ◼   ► like a huge collection of plugins for getting a head start on that. So like for example

00:58:45 ◼   ► my bit splitting podcast is it leans at least a little bit on this podcasting plugin I installed.

00:58:54 ◼   ► And that just took some of the work out of that.

00:58:56 ◼   ► What does it do?

00:58:58 ◼   ► It does stuff like automatically sense that there's an enclosure on the blog post and

00:59:03 ◼   ► enclosure you know saying a reference to an mp3 file if there's an enclosure on

00:59:08 ◼   ► the file then it is it if there's an mp3 on the on the you know post then it not

00:59:15 ◼   ► only packages all that up in the way that makes sense to iTunes but it like

00:59:19 ◼   ► automatically reads the size of the file off of that and the length in minutes

00:59:24 ◼   ► and hours and stuff and puts it automatically inserts a you know like on

00:59:29 ◼   ► They have this on Mule Networks as well.

00:59:33 ◼   ► You can go to the page for an episode and just play the episode right there.

00:59:37 ◼   ► Automatically inserts a media player, stuff like that.

00:59:40 ◼   ► And does it do it with the HTML5?

00:59:42 ◼   ► Yeah, so it works on iPhones and all that, and it's magic.

00:59:48 ◼   ► You know what I was just thinking about last night?

00:59:52 ◼   ► Because it's a little off topic, I guess, but it's sort of related to that with the

00:59:58 ◼   ► the HTML5 is that the world is so quickly, like the people depending on flash player

01:00:12 ◼   ► for audio and video playback are disappearing at such a fast rate now that it's surprising

01:00:20 ◼   ► when I'm on the iPad or iPhone and run into something that I can't play at this point.

01:00:26 ◼   ► Because just last night, before I went to bed, I wanted to watch Elon Musk at the D11

01:00:33 ◼   ► conference, the All Things D. It was just posted earlier in the day. I don't know.

01:00:42 ◼   ► Their whole team is at a conference. I just had this thought in my head like, "Ooh, I

01:00:45 ◼   ► bet this is going to…" The only way it was going to work for me was I was downstairs.

01:00:49 ◼   ► The only thing I had was my iPad and I wanted to AirPlay it to my Apple TV. I thought, "This

01:00:54 ◼   ► going to work. I bet it's going to need Flash. I'm going to have to watch in the morning

01:00:58 ◼   ► up on my desktop or something or just not even watch it. I went to the thing and it

01:01:03 ◼   ► just worked because of course it has HTML5 support.

01:01:08 ◼   ► I just remember there were so many people who when iOS came out without Flash support

01:01:14 ◼   ► who were so damn sure that it was never going to work. There's no way that people are going

01:01:20 ◼   ► to give up Flash player because Flash was already there and just worked.

01:01:26 ◼   ► It's just one of those things where the people who are so wrong about that are never going

01:01:28 ◼   ► to revisit that and admit that they were wrong.

01:01:31 ◼   ► Yeah, well it's one of those things too where depending on what...

01:01:35 ◼   ► I didn't quite get it until I...

01:01:38 ◼   ► I didn't get it really at all because I was very dismissive of anybody who thought you

01:01:43 ◼   ► would require Flash for the long term.

01:01:45 ◼   ► And then I had to kind of grudgingly admit that, for example, this whole class of like

01:01:52 ◼   ► kids games from PBS and etc that my kid played were all like flash based.

01:01:59 ◼   ► And I was like, "Oh, okay, well, there is a there is a ton of stuff out there that today

01:02:05 ◼   ► or at that time 2010 you can't use."

01:02:10 ◼   ► But then I think you're right now it's like, it's getting to the point where yes, all these

01:02:14 ◼   ► like old flash games and stuff are still out there and occasional like very I don't know

01:02:21 ◼   ► what's wrong with them. Restaurants will still require flash for their menus or whatever.

01:02:25 ◼   ► You know what's really changed that though the iPhone has really changed that too. It

01:02:30 ◼   ► really is because I think restaurants in particular it's because they want to appeal to people

01:02:35 ◼   ► who are already out and are like, can we get in at this place? Where is this place? You

01:02:41 ◼   ► Let's go to the New Mexican place."

01:02:45 ◼   ► The iPhone has driven away.

01:02:47 ◼   ► It's finally driven restaurants off flash-based websites.

01:02:51 ◼   ► I think.

01:02:52 ◼   ► Tim Cynova Yeah, I think any of them that have the wherewithal

01:02:54 ◼   ► to notice that and/or the budget to change whatever they've done.

01:02:58 ◼   ► A lot of these restaurants, especially if they're not glossy restaurants and you just

01:03:03 ◼   ► happen to like, then they have the misfortune of somebody having sold them a solution in

01:03:08 ◼   ► 2007 that they're stuck with until.

01:03:12 ◼   ► I think that's the way I would put it is not how much Flash content is out there now, but

01:03:19 ◼   ► who is commissioning new Flash content today?

01:03:23 ◼   ► Right.

01:03:24 ◼   ► Nobody.

01:03:25 ◼   ► It would be dumb, right?

01:03:26 ◼   ► No.

01:03:27 ◼   ► Even Adobe has finally gotten off it.

01:03:28 ◼   ► It would be.

01:03:29 ◼   ► There's some Flash experts out there who are peddling Flashwares, trying to make this argument

01:03:37 ◼   ► that Flash is going to have a big comeback and you don't want to be caught without Flash

01:03:42 ◼   ► on your site when the big comeback comes.

01:03:44 ◼   ► Right. But that's the plug-in you're talking about. It sounds like it does the right thing.

01:03:49 ◼   ► And it's the same lines of why I like using Mars Edit and why Mars Edit really, I wouldn't

01:03:58 ◼   ► say it inspired the idea for the link list, but it made me think it was something I might

01:04:01 ◼   ► want to do because, like you said, you said the word "friction." That taking out the friction

01:04:06 ◼   ► because it's not complicated, it's not hard. Like if you're a programmer, the markup involved

01:04:13 ◼   ► of getting an HTML audio player into a post on your website is not, it's not like you

01:04:20 ◼   ► don't understand it, but if you had to do the markup by hand every week, it's a pain

01:04:24 ◼   ► in the ass. Whereas if you can just tell the software, here's the description and it's

01:04:30 ◼   ► just text, you just write the description and here's the file and it's just an audio

01:04:35 ◼   ► file and the right XML and HTML comes out the other side when you hit a button, it's

01:04:44 ◼   ► just this, it's like a weight off your shoulders.

01:04:46 ◼   ► It's a huge difference.

01:04:49 ◼   ► And all that time you saved is, you know, it's the time that is going to give you even

01:04:54 ◼   ► the possibility of squeezing this one other project into your busy schedule.

01:04:58 ◼   ► Like, you know, there's a level of complexity, for instance, if you didn't have the help

01:05:01 ◼   ► of Mule Networks and you didn't have this great audio recording software and a great mic and

01:05:07 ◼   ► computer that can handle it all. There's this level of complexity where you wouldn't do this show.

01:05:11 ◼   ► And these are all the little things that add up. And that friction word is what keeps coming back

01:05:18 ◼   ► to for me. And I'm sensitive to that. That's why, for example, I don't see myself using

01:05:25 ◼   ► Twitter if they ever made it so I couldn't use a desktop app of some kind.

01:05:31 ◼   ► Yeah. Right? Like, I'm not going to go log in to post my, you know, funny to me and five

01:05:37 ◼   ► other people thought that just came to mind. Yeah, I, you know, their website is a fine

01:05:44 ◼   ► website, but if I had to use the Twitter website to use Twitter, I wouldn't use Twitter.

01:05:48 ◼   ► Exactly. That's, and I think we're a minority, actually, but...

01:05:52 ◼   ► Yeah, but that's why I hope that they – and I think like the renewed – like they've

01:05:57 ◼   ► had a lot of renewed activity in their own clients.

01:06:01 ◼   ► Like for a while, it seemed like not just that they were anti-third party clients, which

01:06:08 ◼   ► they still are. I mean they still have these severe limits that are really – I really

01:06:14 ◼   ► hope they revisit them. The third party thing is different, but it really seemed almost

01:06:18 ◼   ► like they weren't just anti-third-party clients but that they were anti-clients period and

01:06:23 ◼   ► that their own apps were an after – they really wanted people to use the website.

01:06:29 ◼   ► I feel like the reason that I thought that was frustrating was that most people do already.

01:06:34 ◼   ► The mass market already does just use the website. Let the people who care enough to

01:06:38 ◼   ► want the apps use apps and just make everybody happy. It's so hard to go wrong making people

01:06:46 ◼   ► happy, users, customers, whatever you want to call them. If you're making them happy,

01:06:51 ◼   ► you really – you're on the right track.

01:06:54 ◼   ► Eric Bischoff Yeah.

01:06:55 ◼   ► Dave Asprey And if you're doing things that make some

01:06:57 ◼   ► significant portion of them unhappy, that's a good sign that you're wrong.

01:07:01 ◼   ► Eric Bischoff Yeah. And with Twitter, I think – I get

01:07:06 ◼   ► the argument people have given that they had – they're a bind. They have investors.

01:07:10 ◼   ► They need to make money. They need to prove that they can make money. They need to take

01:07:13 ◼   ► control of the timeline, all this stuff.

01:07:16 ◼   ► I guess what I'm optimistic for is that once they get past that kind of nervous zone, then

01:07:23 ◼   ► they can loosen up a little bit.

01:07:26 ◼   ► I could even imagine some investor somewhere saying, "Well, how are you going to make money

01:07:32 ◼   ► if you let all these third-party clients do whatever the heck they want?"

01:07:36 ◼   ► Maybe even somebody at Twitter could be thinking, "Well, that's just John Gruber and Daniel

01:07:40 ◼   ► Jock, those are the only two people. But they'd still want this argument to say, "Oh right,

01:07:46 ◼   ► this is our plan going forward. We're going to take control of the timeline."

01:07:50 ◼   ► Don't fight against people's desires, though. But if it had worked out differently and it

01:07:54 ◼   ► ended up that 90% of the people using Twitter wanted to use third-party clients, if that's

01:07:59 ◼   ► what they want, then they should go with it and figure out a new way to make money from

01:08:04 ◼   ► it. As long as you've got millions and millions of people using it, there's got to be a way

01:08:08 ◼   ► to make money on it. I mean, that's really what inspired me to do the RSS sponsorships

01:08:15 ◼   ► on Daring Fireball was that I, you know, and it's been so long now, it seems like ancient

01:08:22 ◼   ► history, but at the time, my free RSS feed, the default one that anybody could just sign

01:08:26 ◼   ► up for, didn't have the full content of the site. It only had excerpts of articles so

01:08:32 ◼   ► that you'd have to go to the website to read the articles because my thought was, well,

01:08:37 ◼   ► That's the only place where I've got ads.

01:08:39 ◼   ► So I can't just put all the articles in this RSS thing because everybody who does that

01:08:46 ◼   ► is decreasing the number of people who read the ad-supported stuff.

01:08:52 ◼   ► Then I had paid feeds where if you bought a t-shirt or signed up for a membership, you'd

01:08:57 ◼   ► get a little username and a password and then you could read these feeds with the full content.

01:09:05 ◼   ► way, okay, there's no ads, but you're giving me 19 bucks a year, which is fantastic. That's

01:09:10 ◼   ► great. That's way more than enough per reader. That easily justifies full content.

01:09:16 ◼   ► But the problem I ran into was Google Reader, which was the thing that everybody – so

01:09:21 ◼   ► many people wanted to use, but Google Reader didn't support password-authenticated feeds.

01:09:28 ◼   ► And at first I thought, well, they'll get around to it. And it's Google. They'll

01:09:32 ◼   ► around to it. And then it didn't and I just kept getting email after email after email

01:09:36 ◼   ► that I'm trying to use my, I just paid for this thing. I gave you 19 bucks and here's

01:09:41 ◼   ► my username and password. I can't get it to work in Google Reader. And then I thought,

01:09:45 ◼   ► I gave it some thought and I thought of course it doesn't support feeds because Google works

01:09:49 ◼   ► at scale. And Google, therefore, let's say there's 10,000 people reading the Daring Fireball

01:09:56 ◼   ► feed or you know, I don't know, it's probably more, a lot more than that. It's hundreds

01:09:59 ◼   ► thousands, but I'll be humble and say it's 10,000.

01:10:04 ◼   ► They don't want to check the feed 10,000 times with 10,000 username and password combinations.

01:10:10 ◼   ► They want to check the feed once and they store it and then the 10,000 people get the

01:10:15 ◼   ► content from Google, right?

01:10:18 ◼   ► Google's bot checks the feed once, sees there's a new article, and then they send it to the

01:10:24 ◼   ► 10,000 people.

01:10:26 ◼   ► That's how Google works.

01:10:27 ◼   ► Right?

01:10:28 ◼   ► Right?

01:10:29 ◼   ► actual numbers and you know like I said I mean there's you know like literally

01:10:33 ◼   ► hundreds of thousands of people signed up for the feed through Google Reader it

01:10:38 ◼   ► you can see how it just doesn't make sense from Google's perspective to

01:10:41 ◼   ► support usernames and passwords but so instead of fighting it I thought well

01:10:46 ◼   ► there's got to be a way that I can make this work so many people want to use

01:10:49 ◼   ► Google Reader and they want full content I I'm lucky that there's all these

01:10:54 ◼   ► people who want to read what I'm writing this way, let's do it and I don't know, I

01:11:00 ◼   ► guess I could just sell a sponsorship once a week and that wouldn't annoy people and

01:11:05 ◼   ► I'll just put it in as an entry instead of putting like an ad in the entries, I'll

01:11:10 ◼   ► make the ad and entry in the feed. It's worked out great. It's turned into the primary

01:11:16 ◼   ► source of income for the site. But it was only because I didn't want to – I wasn't

01:11:20 ◼   ► afraid to say, and the membership thing was great. It was, you know, at the time, it was

01:11:26 ◼   ► the most successful thing I had done. But I wasn't afraid to just throw it away because

01:11:31 ◼   ► so many people wanted something where it was never going to work. And by doing that, I

01:11:35 ◼   ► came up with something that was, you know, way more profitable.

01:11:39 ◼   ► And easier to administer, easier to maintain. You don't have to have this back end liability.

01:11:44 ◼   ► That's a, you reminded me talking about that actually, this interview Glenn Fleischman

01:11:49 ◼   ► did on his podcast with Cory Doctorow.

01:11:52 ◼   ► And one of the things Cory said that struck me, because I think I've been kind of like

01:11:56 ◼   ► coming to terms with this kind of stuff myself lately, he talked about the distinction between

01:12:04 ◼   ► when a problem becomes a fact.

01:12:08 ◼   ► He was talking about ad rates for newspapers, and it was a problem for a while.

01:12:16 ◼   ► they were going down and then like it one day it just becomes a fact that

01:12:19 ◼   ► they're never gonna go up again and like I think about this stuff with the App

01:12:23 ◼   ► Store is it a problem for me that Apple requires my app to be sandboxed well for

01:12:30 ◼   ► a while it's a problem until maybe you know if I want to stay in this business

01:12:34 ◼   ► it's just a fact so that's kind of what you ended up doing and it's like it's

01:12:38 ◼   ► kind of reassuring to know like well this is a pretty dynamic business and

01:12:42 ◼   ► everything's shifting all the time all these problems are either going to go

01:12:45 ◼   ► away or they're going to become facts.

01:12:47 ◼   ► Right. Eventually, it's like fighting the tide, right? And maybe, you know, whatever

01:12:51 ◼   ► reason you're down at the shore and you really don't want the tide to come in, it's not a

01:12:56 ◼   ► good time for it. But if the tide's coming in, it's coming in and there's nothing you

01:12:59 ◼   ► can do about it. So you better figure out a way to go with the rising tide than to,

01:13:04 ◼   ► you know, somehow try to, you know, build the sandcastle and fight off the tide that's

01:13:09 ◼   ► coming in.

01:13:10 ◼   ► Yep.

01:13:11 ◼   ► Let me do the last sponsorship and then we'll wrap up. I want to talk a little bit more

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01:15:08 ◼   ► a new website, you're nuts if you don't check out Squarespace. Squarespace.com and the code,

01:15:15 ◼   ► not password, code is talk show six. So how come there's no iPhone version of Mars Edit?

01:15:22 ◼   ► Oh boy. Don't get me started. Save this towards the end of the show. That will be a natural

01:15:31 ◼   ► protection here but I softened you up you know I don't know it's a part of it

01:15:39 ◼   ► is there's a lot of it's a reason 23rd 2013 Daniel I know and it's a it's

01:15:46 ◼   ► frustrating to me actually that that there is no Mars edit for iOS part of it

01:15:53 ◼   ► is just that the just the pure and simple one person running a company it's hard for

01:16:02 ◼   ► me to make more than one substantial product and even though it would have the same name

01:16:10 ◼   ► Mars Edit for iOS is as you know an iOS app that has a counterpart on the Mac has to be

01:16:18 ◼   ► a dramatically different product.

01:16:20 ◼   ► You could share, almost certainly, the backend code that communicates to the various APIs.

01:16:30 ◼   ► That's right.

01:16:31 ◼   ► Right?

01:16:32 ◼   ► But the interface would be 100% new.

01:16:35 ◼   ► Absolutely.

01:16:36 ◼   ► I think that has to be true.

01:16:37 ◼   ► Even stuff like the syntax coloring would be different, because NSText and the UI text

01:16:43 ◼   ► views, the UI stuff for text is all totally different.

01:16:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:16:49 ◼   ► all the Vue stuff would be dramatically different. Make no mistake, I've been thinking about this

01:16:57 ◼   ► since day one of the iPhone, thinking about how much sense it would make, first of all,

01:17:04 ◼   ► how much money could I make, second of all, what kind of trade-offs I'd have to make,

01:17:09 ◼   ► third of all, and then what are the high-level design differences. The use cases are different,

01:17:17 ◼   ► too for like for if you're using Mars Edit on an iPhone for example you're not

01:17:23 ◼   ► going to be typing out unless you're insane you know the whole long new

01:17:28 ◼   ► essay. Do you know who writes long blog posts on his iPhone?

01:17:33 ◼   ► Om Malik. Really? Yeah he writes with a keyboard though right with a keyboard. I

01:17:39 ◼   ► don't think so I you know I don't I don't know I think he actually types him

01:17:44 ◼   ► out on the on the phone keyboard. If you go to Om's blog, he even says sometimes,

01:17:49 ◼   ► like he just put up a review of not GigaOM but his personal blog.

01:17:55 ◼   ► It's like om.co I think. It's a super cool URL. It's like om.co. I think

01:18:01 ◼   ► that's his blog. I better double check. Yep. Is it? What I'm reading today.

01:18:09 ◼   ► yep mm-hmm yeah oh yeah om dot co which is how awesome is that if you look at

01:18:16 ◼   ► his review of the galaxy s4 he says that he wrote it on on his iPhone I'm telling

01:18:23 ◼   ► you the I and I don't think he's with the keyboard so oh yeah he said he wrote

01:18:26 ◼   ► it with draft with drafts on his iPhone yep there's people who do it so I don't

01:18:32 ◼   ► know I you might be underestimating that although I agree though that the average

01:18:36 ◼   ► posts are probably the best. I post a lot from my iPhone, especially when I'm on vacation

01:18:43 ◼   ► or something like that, but it's a lot shorter.

01:18:46 ◼   ► Typically more like links, right?

01:18:49 ◼   ► Yeah. But I'll add content and stuff like that. I have a bookmark lid that makes it

01:18:53 ◼   ► so that it sends me over to Movable Type. There's a great plugin for Movable Type called

01:19:00 ◼   ► IMT, like lowercase "i" "m" "t" like movable type. That Brad Choate, I know him for years,

01:19:11 ◼   ► I don't know how to pronounce his surname, Choate, Brad Choate and somebody else at Six

01:19:15 ◼   ► Apart wrote years ago. But it just makes movable type look right on the iPhone. And actually,

01:19:22 ◼   ► in many, many ways, actually makes movable types web interface way better than the version

01:19:28 ◼   ► on the desktop. It's actually, it's not just like a stripped down version. It's just, it's

01:19:36 ◼   ► like, it's just clean. It's really good. So I don't, because of that, I don't crave Mars

01:19:42 ◼   ► Edit for iPhone as much as I would without that. But I do. And especially, you know,

01:19:49 ◼   ► and I'll tell you, you know, you know what the problem is. The biggest problem is that

01:19:54 ◼   ► you can occasionally, while you're going back and forth between tabs in Mobile Safari, if

01:19:58 ◼   ► If it runs short on memory, it'll just wipe your other ones out.

01:20:02 ◼   ► And if you've already sat there and painstakingly thumb typed a couple, even just a couple sentences,

01:20:07 ◼   ► and then you come back and it reloads the page and it's all gone, it's rage inducing.

01:20:14 ◼   ► So yeah, it's like the old world browser problems from the desktop are new world problems on

01:20:19 ◼   ► iOS.

01:20:20 ◼   ► It's like, because that almost never happens anymore, thankfully, on desktop browsers.

01:20:25 ◼   ► But definitely happens on the iPhone.

01:20:27 ◼   ► So long, you just haven't gotten to it?

01:20:29 ◼   ► I just haven't gotten, you know, it's one of those things too. I have a, I have a list of unfinished projects

01:20:34 ◼   ► that is, it's one of my, you know, one of my definite flaws is my distractibility and interest in new projects.

01:20:41 ◼   ► Jumping into things like making a podcast, I'm not going to lie that that takes some time away from, you know,

01:20:48 ◼   ► maybe making an iOS version of MarsEdit.

01:20:50 ◼   ► But yeah, the other problem is,

01:20:54 ◼   ► just completely, just at confessional mode here,

01:20:59 ◼   ► it's a challenge to take something like MarsEdit

01:21:04 ◼   ► that's such a feature-filled app on the Mac,

01:21:07 ◼   ► and then get comfortable with whatever subset

01:21:12 ◼   ► of those features is that you're willing to ship the 1.0 as.

01:21:16 ◼   ► And that is, that's hard when you're making a new product,

01:21:21 ◼   ► hard enough when you're making a new product, right?

01:21:23 ◼   ► Because you have your own personal idea

01:21:26 ◼   ► about what everything, how everything should work,

01:21:29 ◼   ► and you ship the app and you go,

01:21:30 ◼   ► "Ah, everyone's gonna hate the fact

01:21:32 ◼   ► "that I left out XYZ features."

01:21:36 ◼   ► But when you're shipping a version of an existing app,

01:21:41 ◼   ► it's really easy to get caught up in fears about that.

01:21:43 ◼   ► Like, who's going to be mad that it doesn't support this publishing feature of WordPress?

01:21:52 ◼   ► Who's going to be mad that it doesn't support rich text, let's say?

01:21:55 ◼   ► Who's going to be mad this, that, and the other thing?

01:21:57 ◼   ► And so, for example, I could look at someone like you, John, and I could say, "Well, I

01:21:59 ◼   ► know John's not going to be mad if it doesn't support rich text.

01:22:02 ◼   ► I know John's not going to be mad if it..."

01:22:04 ◼   ► I know John would be...

01:22:05 ◼   ► I'd be happier if it didn't.

01:22:06 ◼   ► Because then there's one less tab in the interface junking it up, because I'm never going to

01:22:10 ◼   ► turn it on.

01:22:11 ◼   ► Exactly.

01:22:12 ◼   ► So, and for another example, you would be happy if it was a movable type only app for

01:22:20 ◼   ► starters, let's say.

01:22:21 ◼   ► So—

01:22:22 ◼   ► Well, I'd be satisfied.

01:22:23 ◼   ► It wouldn't make me happy.

01:22:24 ◼   ► I wouldn't be like gleeful that other people can't use it.

01:22:26 ◼   ► I would be like, "Well, that's cool.

01:22:27 ◼   ► If he's only going to support one, at least it's the one I could use."

01:22:30 ◼   ► That's right.

01:22:31 ◼   ► It works for me.

01:22:32 ◼   ► You might even be saying under your breath, "Well, he's an idiot, but this is working

01:22:35 ◼   ► for me."

01:22:36 ◼   ► Right, because there's 20 million people on WordPress and, you know, 10 of us left

01:22:39 ◼   ► on movable type.

01:22:40 ◼   ► Right.

01:22:41 ◼   ► But me and Kaki can use it.

01:22:43 ◼   ► That's right.

01:22:44 ◼   ► I'll tell Kudol too.

01:22:48 ◼   ► The movable type cabal will be satisfied.

01:22:53 ◼   ► But yeah, it's a challenge for me.

01:22:56 ◼   ► You remember I made a talk about this at the first Singleton where that's already two

01:23:00 ◼   ► years old now, my sort of coming to grips with my own inability to finish and ship this

01:23:07 ◼   ► thing.

01:23:08 ◼   ► Right.

01:23:09 ◼   ► But what can I say?

01:23:10 ◼   ► days it's going to happen, and then we will move on from there. To be honest with you,

01:23:14 ◼   ► just like, I'm not one of these... There's some people out there who are still these

01:23:19 ◼   ► Mac developers who are convinced that iOS is not worth pursuing, or it's like, I don't

01:23:28 ◼   ► know, it's for toys, it's for games, and Mac is going to be here forever. And these people,

01:23:34 ◼   ► to me, I'm a committed Mac developer, but these people are sounding more and more to me like the

01:23:39 ◼   ► people who were convinced Mac OS 9 was here forever.

01:23:44 ◼   ► If I were starting a new app and it was like a utility type app and it made sense to maybe

01:23:50 ◼   ► have iOS and Mac versions of the same app, I would do the iPhone version first.

01:23:59 ◼   ► Not even iPad, I would do iPhone first.

01:24:01 ◼   ► I have to say, maybe exclusively, depending on the app, because it's a very near and dear

01:24:11 ◼   ► to my heart market, the Mac community, but it is a specialty kind of power user market

01:24:19 ◼   ► more and more.

01:24:20 ◼   ► Right.

01:24:21 ◼   ► And maybe it might make sense.

01:24:23 ◼   ► I know what you're saying, because the idea would be, it wouldn't be that the Mac doesn't

01:24:26 ◼   ► matter, but that if you have limited resources, you're always going to get more results out

01:24:30 ◼   ► of pouring those resources into the iOS version because the opportunity is so

01:24:36 ◼   ► immensely large. I think that's the thing that old-school Mac developers maybe are

01:24:40 ◼   ► just they can't wrap their heads around is just how large the iPhone iPad market

01:24:47 ◼   ► is. Because we're just not used to that. I mean we're all happy that the Mac is thriving

01:24:52 ◼   ► and that the Mac audience has grown over the last ten years which is great but

01:24:59 ◼   ► But you just can't fathom how much larger the iOS market is.

01:25:02 ◼   ► I can't.

01:25:03 ◼   ► I just know it is that much larger.

01:25:05 ◼   ► But I really, it's almost like it doesn't even make sense to me.

01:25:07 ◼   ► It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

01:25:09 ◼   ► But the important distinction for me and for I think other Mac developers out there is

01:25:13 ◼   ► a huge market.

01:25:15 ◼   ► And that is clearly not enough for us.

01:25:17 ◼   ► Otherwise, we would have all been Windows developers the whole time.

01:25:19 ◼   ► Right.

01:25:20 ◼   ► That's not the reason.

01:25:21 ◼   ► That's not, yeah.

01:25:22 ◼   ► It's not the reason.

01:25:23 ◼   ► combination of a huge market and a compelling, interesting platform.

01:25:28 ◼   ► And a lot, not to all people, because there's, you know, there's clearly a lot

01:25:32 ◼   ► of people using iPhones and iPads who don't even care about the quality of the

01:25:36 ◼   ► interface of the apps they use, but there's clearly a subset of them who do.

01:25:41 ◼   ► And, you know, it still is the difference. We could go for another hour and talk

01:25:46 ◼   ► about the whole market share and profit share stuff, but part of it, and you know,

01:25:49 ◼   ► like the Tim Cook thing at the D11 conference where he keeps talking about

01:25:53 ◼   ► about the usage stats that show that people use the iPhone a lot more than Android users

01:25:58 ◼   ► use their phone for the web browsing and for app installing and all this stuff. What that

01:26:02 ◼   ► means is though is that the people who care more tend to buy iPhones and iPads. Not all

01:26:09 ◼   ► of them. Not that everybody who cares and makes a very thoughtful and informed decision

01:26:16 ◼   ► to which phone to buy chooses an iPhone. But that the more you do care and think about

01:26:22 ◼   ► the more likely you are to choose an iPhone.

01:26:24 ◼   ► And that means that the market of people for the apps

01:26:27 ◼   ► is predisposed to appreciate the things that Mac developers have

01:26:30 ◼   ► always cared about, which is sweating the details,

01:26:34 ◼   ► putting nice touches in, just making nice things.

01:26:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:42 ◼   ► And with a market as huge as the iOS market,

01:26:46 ◼   ► even if only 5% of that market is that kind of attention

01:26:52 ◼   ► to details, appreciation. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head. Probably 5%

01:26:58 ◼   ► of the iOS market is comparable to the Mac market. I don't know. That's pulling it out

01:27:04 ◼   ► of thin air.

01:27:05 ◼   ► Dave: It might even be … Well, that's probably about right. But maybe if anything,

01:27:09 ◼   ► it's smaller.

01:27:10 ◼   ► Tim: Right. So the Mac market is huge today. It's bigger than it's ever been and it's

01:27:14 ◼   ► enough to sustain one-person companies like me. Then you look at something like the iOS

01:27:18 ◼   ► market and you say, "Even if …" I know it can be folly to look at markets and say,

01:27:22 ◼   ► even if I could get X percent.

01:27:23 ◼   ► But yes, there is a significant portion

01:27:26 ◼   ► of that market that is right up traditional Mac developers'

01:27:32 ◼   ► alleys.

01:27:34 ◼   ► And you bet I want to get in there.

01:27:37 ◼   ► And I have fun when I play with iOS development.

01:27:39 ◼   ► It's just time management.

01:27:41 ◼   ► And there's also other little things,

01:27:44 ◼   ► like making money on iOS is not as obvious.

01:27:48 ◼   ► It's not as clear.

01:27:49 ◼   ► And I know other people who have dipped their toes into iOS

01:27:51 ◼   ► and then kind of recoil back to the Mac because even with this piddly little market, we charge

01:27:57 ◼   ► 40 bucks for our software and people think that's cheap.

01:28:00 ◼   ► Right. Now, it definitely makes a difference. I'll tell you what. We'll wrap up, but I'm

01:28:04 ◼   ► going to tell you. I'm going to give you a hint because I'm your pal.

01:28:07 ◼   ► All right.

01:28:08 ◼   ► So you're too nice.

01:28:11 ◼   ► Because there was an easy – when I hit you with why is there no iPhone version of Mars

01:28:17 ◼   ► edit. What you should have done is instead of answering it, is you should have hit me

01:28:22 ◼   ► with why is there no iPhone responsive version of Darren Fireball. Because it all, you know,

01:28:31 ◼   ► people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

01:28:32 ◼   ► So, so, so,

01:28:34 ◼   ► Because of me rubbing it in your face that it's 2013, well, the same thing applies to

01:28:38 ◼   ► the fact that when you load Darren Fireball on your iPhone, it still doesn't look perfect.

01:28:43 ◼   ► And why isn't there, what was the other thing that you were, I heard this several months

01:28:47 ◼   ► ago on your show, I think, the web fonts thing. Why haven't you adopted—

01:28:51 ◼   ► Right. Why is it text still set in an 11px Verdana?

01:28:56 ◼   ► And it's because you have a hell of a lot of things to do, and that one hasn't bubbled

01:29:01 ◼   ► up to the top yet.

01:29:02 ◼   ► Yeah, more or less. Is that what I said? That's a good answer.

01:29:05 ◼   ► No, no. That's my off-the-cuff answer today. That's my answering vicariously through

01:29:10 ◼   ► you answer, but feel free to take it.

01:29:13 ◼   ► Well, it's you know, that's exactly right though. It's bubbled up, but it's not quite at the top

01:29:18 ◼   ► It's it always it never gets higher than like number two or number three and then something else is always at number one

01:29:25 ◼   ► Well, the other thing too with the thing that the web fonts is I want to I've had

01:29:28 ◼   ► People say the design hasn't changed in ten years of during file that's not true if you go through it it has changed in subtle ways

01:29:36 ◼   ► But it's always been 11 px

01:29:40 ◼   ► Verdana for the body fun and it held up for 10 years and you know, it's definitely looks dated now

01:29:46 ◼   ► But if I well when I change I will change but when I change I want it to last

01:29:51 ◼   ► For the rest of my life

01:29:53 ◼   ► I would like to change the font once and then that's it because once now that web fonts are available

01:29:59 ◼   ► I can pick a font that should never get dated

01:30:02 ◼   ► Right, but then you got it that that having that attitude going into it ups the ante right incredibly, right?

01:30:10 ◼   ► You got to measure, you know, they say measure twice, cut once.

01:30:12 ◼   ► Well, I measure about three or four hundred times and then I cut once.

01:30:16 ◼   ► I'm going to use that.

01:30:20 ◼   ► That's going to be my new one-line response actually to iOS Mars Edit.

01:30:26 ◼   ► I'll take that one from you.

01:30:27 ◼   ► You can take the bubbling up from me and we'll move on with that.

01:30:31 ◼   ► All right.

01:30:32 ◼   ► Daniel, thank you for your time.

01:30:33 ◼   ► This has been a great show.

01:30:35 ◼   ► Let's let's let everybody know again all this stuff where they can find

01:30:39 ◼   ► Your work so we've got red sweater software. That's let me get it right red -

01:30:45 ◼   ► sweater calm

01:30:47 ◼   ► That's right red - sweater calm Mars edit is the big one there

01:30:51 ◼   ► Bit splitting org is

01:30:55 ◼   ► your new blog and your podcast

01:30:59 ◼   ► and

01:31:00 ◼   ► Then where's core intuition?

01:31:03 ◼   ► Core intuition is that core int?

01:31:05 ◼   ► Org pay you gonna be at the WWDC

01:31:09 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm gonna be standing on the steps of WWDC

01:31:12 ◼   ► Passing out flyers and competing with the crazy street people for you. You won the lottery

01:31:19 ◼   ► To get a you you got in in the 90-second window where tickets are available. You got a ticket, but then immediately

01:31:27 ◼   ► Like within the hour rather than be happy about it you decided

01:31:32 ◼   ► that what wait what to explain this have I have I mentioned my high horse right

01:31:38 ◼   ► show you immediately got up on your high horse I got I bought I got down off of

01:31:45 ◼   ► my high horse just long enough to stand in line with everybody else at 1 p.m.

01:31:51 ◼   ► Eastern Time reloading frantically the WWDC page and got in reloaded I heard

01:31:58 ◼   ► your account of this to mine went just like yours okay reload reload reload you

01:32:02 ◼   ► can buy, click buy. Okay, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I don't care what it is, yes. You have

01:32:08 ◼   ► a ticket allegedly coming to your inbox soon. All right, cool. That was easy.

01:32:13 ◼   ► Dave: Me and you were doing it at the same time.

01:32:16 ◼   ► Tim Cynova So you had that experience too, right?

01:32:18 ◼   ► Dave Right.

01:32:19 ◼   ► Tim Cynova So you and I were both thinking at 1 o'clock

01:32:23 ◼   ► and 33 seconds. Wow.

01:32:25 ◼   ► Dave This was great. Everybody got in.

01:32:27 ◼   ► Tim Cynova This was great. Yeah, I'm going to go check

01:32:28 ◼   ► with my friends. Everyone I know was doing the same thing, so we all got tickets. Then

01:32:35 ◼   ► I just start seeing, "Oh, Apple. Oh, I had the ticket in my cart. Oh, it wouldn't even

01:32:40 ◼   ► let me get into the ticket. Oh, it wouldn't even let me log in."

01:32:42 ◼   ► I knew one of my friends supposedly had a ticket, but then when they put their credit

01:32:50 ◼   ► card thing in, it spun for a while and came back with like Czechoslovakian text and some

01:32:57 ◼   ► company name from Eastern Europe.

01:33:00 ◼   ► Right! It was revealing other members' information.

01:33:04 ◼   ► Anyway, it was kind of a classic Daniel Punk-ass, high horse moment.

01:33:12 ◼   ► But it was one of these things where I didn't understand

01:33:17 ◼   ► why I was doing it at the moment. I was doing it on instinct.

01:33:22 ◼   ► I think I remember I tweeted it.

01:33:25 ◼   ► Well, first of all, I went to the site, to the store, and I was frankly surprised that

01:33:29 ◼   ► they had an option on the store cancel order.

01:33:33 ◼   ► I just thought, "Are you kidding me?

01:33:37 ◼   ► This is the one thing nobody would ever want to cancel."

01:33:42 ◼   ► And then I thought about it, and I'm seeing all my friends, some people who even ended

01:33:47 ◼   ► up getting tickets afterwards, but friends like Marco Arment, I think my friend Chris

01:33:55 ◼   ► Alicia got one, Marco Arment didn't get one, Manton Reese, you know, he's like the most

01:34:01 ◼   ► earnestly wanting to attend WWDC guy I know.

01:34:04 ◼   ► Dave: Yeah, if fans didn't get a ticket, it really

01:34:06 ◼   ► makes you doubt that there's a God.

01:34:08 ◼   ► Tim Cynova Yeah, right.

01:34:09 ◼   ► So then I'm like, "You know what?

01:34:10 ◼   ► I'm in the wrong club here."

01:34:12 ◼   ► It's like in retrospect, I started looking at it and the metaphors that came to mind

01:34:16 ◼   ► were like, I just like ran the race of my life and I'm like panting at the finish line

01:34:23 ◼   ► And I came across and I broke the ribbon and I they hand me the gold medal and they're like congratulations

01:34:28 ◼   ► you ran a great race and I look behind me and like people have been tripping the other runners and like

01:34:34 ◼   ► You know

01:34:36 ◼   ► Fire firing like slingshots at them and I just had like an easy breezy run and then I find out afterwards that

01:34:42 ◼   ► It wasn't a fair run. And so you canceled your order. So I canceled my order

01:34:47 ◼   ► Instinctively and not sure if I would believe me. It was a little stressful

01:34:51 ◼   ► But it took me about two minutes to make the call, because I was also, as I'm thinking this,

01:35:02 ◼   ► I'm also like, like I said, this is not real. They're not really offering to let me cancel.

01:35:06 ◼   ► That doesn't make any sense. But then I thought, what if this is my chance? And so then I canceled

01:35:14 ◼   ► it. And I felt the urgency and the stress of, or the anxiety rather, of deciding.

01:35:19 ◼   ► It was the most jowkety thing you've ever done.

01:35:21 ◼   ► - It was the jowkety thing.

01:35:23 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:35:24 ◼   ► It was full.

01:35:25 ◼   ► - But you're still coming out to San Francisco?

01:35:26 ◼   ► - I am, yes.

01:35:27 ◼   ► I'll come out.

01:35:28 ◼   ► I'll see you there.

01:35:29 ◼   ► - You coming to the talk show live thing?

01:35:30 ◼   ► - Absolutely, yes.

01:35:32 ◼   ► I was there last year.

01:35:33 ◼   ► I've had a great time looking forward to.

01:35:34 ◼   ► You're at a different location now though.

01:35:36 ◼   ► - Bigger.

01:35:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, bigger.

01:35:37 ◼   ► - But it's still sold out.

01:35:38 ◼   ► So I'm sorry everybody out there tried to get the tickets

01:35:40 ◼   ► and you didn't.

01:35:41 ◼   ► I'm really sorry and maybe next year we'll try to get

01:35:43 ◼   ► an even bigger place.

01:35:44 ◼   ► But all of you, looking forward to it.

01:35:46 ◼   ► I think we got, well, I got one more show next week

01:35:47 ◼   ► and then the next one will be the live one and I'm really looking for ya all

01:35:51 ◼   ► right well you know there then yep and remember John just looking for a bigger

01:35:54 ◼   ► venue is more than Apple has done

01:35:57 ◼   ► anyway bit splitting org red sweater calm and where's core intuition with you

01:36:05 ◼   ► and Manton core int org all right that's great that Daniel jacket thank you for

01:36:10 ◼   ► your time and and thanks for a great show thanks for having me John all right