The Talk Show

36: Stockpiling the Nuclear Weapons of Design War


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00:00:07   The talk show

00:00:10   Oh malek what a week yes there is and it's not even over yet

00:00:17   I'm just surprised. Uh, it's only friday. I'm just waiting for something else to happen tomorrow

00:00:28   I'm not even sure what the biggest news of the week is. I think it's probably the the facebook home

00:00:34   facebook phone

00:00:36   htc first

00:00:38   But I don't know. There's also the the the webkit. Um

00:00:42   I don't know. What do you want to call it a divorce between apple and google where google sort of

00:00:47   Taking their half a webkit and going their own way

00:00:50   I think those two stories are pretty much the same story

00:00:54   of google versus apple

00:00:57   the narrative you and I have been talking about for a very long time.

00:01:03   I wouldn't think of the two events very separately.

00:01:08   I think the Facebook home story is essentially another assault by the Android ecosystem on

00:01:20   Apple.

00:01:21   Apple right I mean I don't know if you read all those interviews you know

00:01:29   Zuckerberg gave to all the print publications by fortune no I didn't

00:01:36   actually and so he's basically talking about like how easy it is to innovate on

00:01:41   Android and how open it is and then they have a great relationship with Apple but

00:01:47   there are constraints, which is kind of very passive aggressive, classic Harvard way of

00:01:52   saying, you know, we got some issues we need to resolve.

00:01:56   Well, and I do think it's, it's almost surprising, the level to which Facebook home as just

00:02:09   software is able to sort of redefine the Android experience. I mean, and I know, I make fun of it

00:02:15   over and over again. The whole Android is open mantra. But here's an example where it really

00:02:22   it really is like it's at it's designed at a level where an app that you just download from the Play

00:02:27   Store can once you you know you granted a bunch of permissions which I think is a lot more broad

00:02:34   than the typical app you download from the Play Store. But once you say okay this I'm going to

00:02:39   allow this to do these things your your phone interface is really completely redefined.

00:02:44   And, you know, it's very, very much the case that you cannot do anything like that on iOS.

00:02:50   I mean, a part of me says, "Thank God," you know, because what I don't want is Facebook

00:02:57   controlling my user experience on my phone.

00:03:01   I mean, I'm sorry.

00:03:03   I would rather trust Cobra, you know, in my pocket than, you know, Facebook.

00:03:10   I'm sorry.

00:03:11   And, you know, I'm no big fan of Android, but I will say this, though.

00:03:15   I do think it's to Android's credit, and I think it's a lesson learned from the PC decade

00:03:22   of the '90s and maybe even the 2000s, that even, let's say, and I don't know this for

00:03:30   sure because it's not out yet.

00:03:32   It doesn't hit the Play Store until the 12th, and the Android phone I have here is, I think

00:03:37   it's a Galaxy Nexus, and I don't think that's on their list of supported phones.

00:03:41   so I probably won't be able to try it.

00:03:42   But, you know, it is still a download from the Play Store.

00:03:46   So if you download it and you don't like

00:03:48   what it's done to your phone, you can uninstall it.

00:03:51   You can delete the app and go back.

00:03:53   As opposed to the dark days of, you know,

00:03:56   PCs and especially Windows in the 90s,

00:03:59   where you might install, I don't know,

00:04:01   browser toolbars and stuff like that,

00:04:04   and you have no idea how to uninstall them.

00:04:07   - That's true.

00:04:08   I mean, I would give you that.

00:04:10   I think the other issue which we don't talk about often with the Android is that it allows

00:04:17   you to customize everything to the system level and Facebook is taking advantage of

00:04:28   that and creating an experience which is very similar to how they see the world.

00:04:37   And I wonder if this is something which becomes a trend where successful companies like Facebook,

00:04:46   like Twitter, like Spotify start to layer their own usability interface on top of Android.

00:04:57   And what Google does about it would be interesting to see because when I looked at the Facebook

00:05:04   home I was at the event yesterday I looked at it and I said you know it's

00:05:08   only a matter of time before Facebook launches its own OS it's only a matter

00:05:15   of time before Google brings Android back into the you know into the cage I

00:05:21   think it's getting too crazy for them you know if Samsung is running away with

00:05:26   one version of Android and Amazon did their own thing and you know now I think

00:05:31   I think Facebook is going to try and do their own thing.

00:05:34   I just think they said at the event

00:05:37   that they will be upgrading this every month

00:05:40   with growing regularity.

00:05:43   And I was like, wait, this is essentially

00:05:46   just a Trojan horse for a full OS.

00:05:49   I'll give it 18 months.

00:05:52   - Well, and I will say this.

00:05:54   I mean, I invited you to be on this show yesterday,

00:05:57   but it was mainly because I saw that after the event

00:06:00   They had a Q&A, and their credit for having a Q&A with the press.

00:06:05   Apple often usually doesn't.

00:06:08   But I saw that you were pressing them on this exact issue, this, "Come on, this is the first

00:06:14   step towards your own operating system."

00:06:19   And they didn't even really...

00:06:21   They didn't really address it directly, but they didn't really...

00:06:24   I thought their answers to it were kind of interesting, because it wasn't a denial, that's

00:06:28   for sure.

00:06:29   You know one thing I was quite enjoying it see how well-trained Mark has become in terms

00:06:38   of media doesn't even acknowledge the question and answers with what he wants to answer but

00:06:44   I tried and they you know the limit the limit of time is always an issue but I'm fairly

00:06:52   convinced that this is just an opening salvo and they have to do it.

00:06:59   If they are investing so much time and energy in trying to create this user experience on

00:07:05   Android, it makes perfect sense for them to go deeper.

00:07:09   I tell you, they may have been working on an OS level program in the background and

00:07:15   the reason they are not launching it just yet is that it's not mature enough because

00:07:19   But it takes a lot more to build an operating system.

00:07:23   I mean, it took Google a few years.

00:07:26   It took Apple many, many years to get it done right.

00:07:29   And Apple is in the business of OS,

00:07:32   and Google is in the business of building operating systems.

00:07:36   I will say this.

00:07:37   I have spoken to executives at Apple, I mean, really high up.

00:07:42   And they see iOS-- and this is even just from your-- even

00:07:48   today, they see it as a continuous effort dating back to 1988, 1989, and the original

00:07:56   next step operating system.

00:07:58   And in terms of things like graphics performance, the smoothness of animation and font rendering

00:08:04   and stuff like that, and certain technical advantages that iOS has had over Android and

00:08:10   other competitors all along, they see that not as something that they've been working

00:08:14   on since 2005 or 2006 when they started working on the iPhone, but as something that they

00:08:18   dates back to 1989. I mean it is hard stuff.

00:08:22   Yeah, it is. And you know, I will give the Facebook guys full credit for being relentless

00:08:30   too. I think there is a little bit Microsoft in that company and they are just, they just

00:08:35   don't like giving up.

00:08:37   Well, and I, and the thing that you have me convinced of in terms of this angle that this

00:08:43   This is just an opening salvo in terms of a broader mobile initiative from Facebook.

00:08:50   And I think it's very clever, and I think it shows – it's a clever way, like you

00:08:55   said, that if a full operating system under their control – maybe something – maybe

00:08:59   still something based on Android, but something more like what Amazon's done, a fork – if

00:09:05   it's not ready yet, this is a very – this strategy of doing this first, doing a home

00:09:10   home screen first that you can install on five very popular Android phones and ship

00:09:16   a new phone from HTC that'll be in AT&T stores later this month, right, is a great way to

00:09:25   ship something as soon as possible, you know, in that mantra of, you know, minimum viable

00:09:32   product.

00:09:33   Like what's the minimum viable mobile operating system that Facebook could ship?

00:09:39   And home screen might be it.

00:09:41   It's a way to ship early.

00:09:43   - Right.

00:09:44   I think the other thing, if you really look at it, John,

00:09:47   they are, they are basically, they did something

00:09:51   which is quite brilliant.

00:09:54   They tore, they gave the middle finger to Google

00:09:57   in a big way, and yet at the same time, they kept saying,

00:10:00   you know, we love Google.

00:10:02   They have never said in the past that, hey Google,

00:10:05   you're great, they're open, we have a, you know,

00:10:08   we really applaud what you're doing.

00:10:10   The narrative on Facebook is that Google sucks, right?

00:10:14   And then suddenly they wake up and like,

00:10:16   "Ooh, we are saying all these nice things about Google."

00:10:20   And my view is, well, you're just trying to hide

00:10:23   what's the reality, right?

00:10:24   Maybe I'm a little bit too cynical or too old

00:10:28   for this industry, but that's how I read it.

00:10:30   The second thing which I would say is that

00:10:33   there also, Google's big play was Google+ on the web.

00:10:37   on the mobile, right?

00:10:39   That's their social play.

00:10:41   And here comes Facebook,

00:10:43   add the social layer on top of Android and says,

00:10:46   "Great guys, to help with you and your Google Plus,

00:10:49   "here is how we do social on your platform."

00:10:54   Right?

00:10:55   And I think that is what is going to make Google

00:10:58   kind of have a little bit of a second thought

00:11:01   as to like what should they do about Facebook and Android

00:11:05   and how open they should keep it.

00:11:07   I do think, and I've seen it on Twitter and I've seen it elsewhere, I saw Horace Deju

00:11:12   of ASIMCO speculating along the same lines of, "Does this..."

00:11:20   I think Google was already being prodded in this direction of, "Hey, have we given competitors

00:11:24   too much by making Android this open?

00:11:28   Too much of a leg up."

00:11:29   Where would Amazon be in tablets if it were not for the fact that Android is open source?

00:11:36   Have we given away too much? You can't help but think given the, it's not even implicit,

00:11:43   it's explicit. Everybody knows that Larry Page is seriously got Google+ as one of his

00:11:50   primary objectives for the next few years at Google, right? And that Facebook might

00:11:55   be their top competitor, even more than Apple, more than, you know, the most direct competitor

00:12:00   maybe. And now they've given their most direct competitor this this opportunity.

00:12:06   You have to wonder whether they're they're reconsidering what that's going to mean for

00:12:12   the next major version of Android. It'd be fun to see what happens. I'm just like almost giddy

00:12:20   with delight to just write the next story. Whatever happens will be pretty awesome.

00:12:26   And on similar lines, I wrote a little bit earlier this week, but I played off a report

00:12:32   by Nicholas Carlson in Business Insider on Andy Rubin's departure as Android lead.

00:12:40   And that it's—nobody's on the record, unfortunately, but it really seems more and more that what

00:12:47   happened to him is exactly what happened to Scott Forstall at Apple, which is that he

00:12:53   he got pushed out. He didn't just decide to step down. His little do another moonshot

00:13:00   for Google thing is really just a gardening leave where he's waiting for options to vest

00:13:06   or something like that or non-competes to expire.

00:13:09   Dr. Ahmad Sairam. I would not disagree with you. I've heard the same story from multiple

00:13:14   sources that he got pushed out mostly because he was very difficult to work with.

00:13:19   All right, I mean like again the one phrase I heard from somebody was quote-unquote Larry was sick of the fighting

00:13:24   Yeah, and the thing that's so telling about that and is that the fighting was with

00:13:30   Correct me if I'm pronouncing wrong Sundar

00:13:34   Pichai Pichai

00:13:37   The chrome lead who took over Android and that's really when you read between the lines the biggest tell that this was not Andy

00:13:45   Ruben's idea because I

00:13:46   And a couple of people said the same thing, that Pichai is the last guy Andy Rubin would

00:13:52   have wanted to take over Android, because he's the guy he was fighting with all the

00:13:55   time.

00:13:56   Or one of the guys he was fighting with all the time.

00:13:58   I think it was a very explicit message which went out to the rest of the company, is that

00:14:04   you do what is necessary for Google.

00:14:07   This is why I am convinced that the Android gets brought back to the farm.

00:14:16   out there too much.

00:14:18   I've said this for years.

00:14:19   And just not-- it's not even like the details of it.

00:14:23   It's just a general feel, like an emotional feel,

00:14:25   that Android, to me, always felt like an independent company

00:14:32   that Google happens to own.

00:14:35   Not part of Google.

00:14:36   Right?

00:14:38   Everything from their graphic design to--

00:14:41   I don't know, there's just so much about it

00:14:42   that it just did not seem aligned with the company,

00:14:45   really.

00:14:45   other than the fact that it ships with a bunch of Google services, you know, as apps in part

00:14:50   of the default app set.

00:14:54   And I think that that's definitely the message that I get is that's going to change, and

00:14:58   that the next major version of Android is going to be a lot more Googley.

00:15:04   You know, the talking about the next version of Android being more Googley, I would say

00:15:13   It's interesting that the Chrome OS and Android look so much similar when their purposes are

00:15:25   entirely different.

00:15:27   And I just wonder what is the unified experience look like when these two projects actually

00:15:33   are run by the same guy.

00:15:35   It'll be pretty fun to see.

00:15:37   And I'm actually pretty excited about what Google is doing.

00:15:43   Not entirely as somebody who's going to end up spending his time on Android, but just

00:15:49   to see them make these moves is at least interesting.

00:15:53   They're not being boring compared to--

00:15:55   Oh, no, that's definitely the case.

00:15:58   And I think some people overread into my taste in the fact that I generally prefer iOS over

00:16:07   Android in most design senses.

00:16:11   That doesn't mean that I don't look at Android with open eyes and appreciate a lot of the

00:16:15   stuff that they're doing.

00:16:17   And I agree with you.

00:16:19   Especially now that it's under one person, I do wonder where that's going to go with

00:16:25   Chrome as an OS and Android as an OS.

00:16:28   Right.

00:16:29   You know, this brings me to the bigger challenge, which is you and I have talked about this

00:16:34   in the past.

00:16:35   Like what does Apple do?

00:16:37   Like this is a time when the idea of operating systems,

00:16:43   user interfaces, everything is up for grabs.

00:16:49   And it seems like our guys are just like

00:16:53   kind of, seem to be a little stuck, a little static.

00:16:57   I don't know what you think about that.

00:17:00   I mean you're very close to the design thinking

00:17:04   Apple and iPhone and iOS? Well, I don't know. I don't think that there's as

00:17:13   much need for new stuff in iOS, major new stuff, as some people do, because I don't

00:17:21   know. And again, I think I talked about this on my show a couple weeks ago, but I

00:17:24   think it's in a sense that I'm getting older, that I'm no longer as

00:17:28   infatuated with new for the sake of newness. Like, I saw some people yesterday

00:17:33   I saw people and immediately after the Facebook home launch

00:17:36   bemoaning the fact that

00:17:40   That the that that little drag your face up left or right thing

00:17:45   Seemed so much more cooler than than anything in iOS

00:17:50   And it is cool, and it's definitely novel

00:17:54   But I feel like I can't help but wonder if that's going to be confusing to a lot of people like I

00:17:58   I appreciate the fact, not that I need it as a super nerd type guy, but for most people,

00:18:05   I think that the fact that on iOS you can just look at it and figure it out, it tells

00:18:11   you.

00:18:12   It actually tells you in iOS when you have your phone locked, slide this to unlock it.

00:18:18   Some people still have trouble with that because they don't slide it all the way and hold

00:18:22   it.

00:18:23   They'll slide it a little bit and let go and it goes back.

00:18:27   So I think it's really hard to overstate the success Apple's had because iOS is so simple.

00:18:35   And there's so many ways that what people see in other systems that they see as Apple

00:18:39   may be falling behind in the whiz-bang regard would just lose so much of what makes iOS

00:18:49   popular with regular people.

00:18:50   Right.

00:18:51   You know, it's just a little confusing time right now.

00:18:55   I think there is a lot of talk about how things are different now with Android and Samsung

00:19:05   and all sorts of new user experiences coming to market.

00:19:10   And then you also have the issue of Apple still continues to do really well.

00:19:16   I wonder if the next earnings report is going to be something to watch for.

00:19:24   I don't know.

00:19:25   Well, I don't know.

00:19:27   I guess that is coming soon.

00:19:28   I feel like they warned so heavily that this was going to be the first--

00:19:33   I mean, if it's not, they're really going to blow past expectations.

00:19:37   But they warned so heavily three months ago

00:19:40   that this coming report was going to be the first one in, I don't know,

00:19:43   how many quarters, 16 quarters or something like that, that shows a year

00:19:47   over year earnings decrease.

00:19:49   Although I think revenue should still increase significantly year over year.

00:19:53   But the margins have shrunk enough for whatever reason

00:19:56   recently that earnings are going to be down a little bit year

00:20:00   over year.

00:20:00   So we'll see how the market reacts.

00:20:02   But I think that that's already baked

00:20:03   into the depression of Apple's stock price.

00:20:06   Right.

00:20:07   What about the bigger narrative around Apple

00:20:11   is that they are failing to keep up

00:20:15   on the cloud side of things, which I think

00:20:18   is a big challenge for them.

00:20:21   we saw the iCloud related stories pop up this past week

00:20:26   and then you have the problem with Chrome,

00:20:30   WebKit, you know, DevOps so to speak.

00:20:33   I don't know, I would love to know

00:20:34   how you're thinking about this.

00:20:35   Like you're the guy who understands

00:20:39   the software side of Apple better than most people do.

00:20:42   - I think that that's one of the,

00:20:46   I do think for the most part that getting the iCloud stuff

00:20:49   to work as well as the--

00:20:54   I think it needs for Apple to really succeed

00:20:56   over the next five years, like they have over the last five years.

00:20:59   The iCloud stuff needs to start working as well for third party developers

00:21:05   as--

00:21:06   what do you want to call it-- Coco Touch or UI Kit,

00:21:09   but whatever you want to call it.

00:21:11   The framework that you use to make native iPhone and iPad apps,

00:21:16   and how much-- when you talk to developers,

00:21:18   much easier it is to write really good-looking, smoothly animated, beautiful apps for iPhone

00:21:26   as opposed to other platforms. They need to get it so that writing stuff that stores data

00:21:32   and syncs data to the cloud is just as good as it is to make good-looking apps. Does that

00:21:39   make sense?

00:21:40   Yeah.

00:21:41   And they're not there yet. And part of it, I just saw that Google has announced some

00:21:45   some new developer features for Google Drive.

00:21:50   And some of them--

00:21:50   a couple of the headlines have said

00:21:52   that it's iCloud, heading in the direction of iCloud,

00:21:55   where it's not just like Dropbox, where it's a folder

00:21:59   that you sync to Google.

00:22:01   They've added key value storage, which is an iCloud feature.

00:22:04   And that's actually an iCloud feature

00:22:06   that works pretty well if you talk to developers.

00:22:10   And I forget what else.

00:22:11   They don't have like a database level, database record level

00:22:17   syncing.

00:22:18   They don't even try it.

00:22:19   And that's the part of iCloud that developers

00:22:22   are bedeviled by.

00:22:23   That's what the Ars Technica story was about.

00:22:25   That's what Rich Segal's incredibly detailed,

00:22:29   and I think very, very fair, technical assessment

00:22:33   that I linked to on During Fireball last week.

00:22:36   And it's also The Verge--

00:22:38   who was it who wrote this Verge story?

00:22:40   Was it Alice Hamburger?

00:22:41   it was Alice Hamburger at The Verge, had a really great story. And what made it great

00:22:46   was he really, I mean, he must have talked to at least a dozen or more developers to

00:22:51   get different perspectives, but they all kind of told the same story about core data syncing

00:22:56   to iCloud. Google doesn't even try that yet. I mean, so it's frustrating for developers

00:23:01   in so far is that core data syncing to iCloud, it's not fair to say it doesn't work, but

00:23:08   it is fair to say it does not work well enough,

00:23:12   to the point where a lot of applications

00:23:14   simply can't rely on it.

00:23:17   But in another sense, Apple's ahead

00:23:19   because they're at least trying something

00:23:21   that Google isn't offering yet, that Amazon doesn't have.

00:23:26   So we'll see.

00:23:27   I mean, is this a case where maybe they shouldn't

00:23:31   have shipped when they did?

00:23:33   Maybe they should have left it in the labs for another year?

00:23:36   or was it worth getting it out there to maybe help iron out the kinks in the field?

00:23:43   You know, I would say that they need to kind of take a step back and figure out their entire

00:23:52   internet strategy, not just iCloud, not just iTunes. They really need to figure out how

00:24:02   internet interfaces with everything they do including their iOS, how deeply

00:24:08   integrated it is. I think what I'm trying to say is that if you look at

00:24:13   Google they are coming from this position of knowing web services really

00:24:18   really well and they are building a design and hardware experience on top of

00:24:22   that. Much easier to do compared to what Apple is trying to do is graph web

00:24:29   experience into its way of thinking and I think unless they figure that out they

00:24:34   will always be challenged with this iCloud type problems. I think as a

00:24:38   company they don't think about the the internet the way as native internet

00:24:44   companies do and I think they are not understanding the little fact that it's

00:24:48   not enough to make great design, great UI, great hardware, great software. You have

00:24:56   to have the ability to be a great connected experience and I think great as Apple might

00:25:02   be on all those things, internet is and will always be its weak point and they're chinking

00:25:10   the armor and so they really need to kind of, they have to have a step back thinking

00:25:17   about this and I think they need, I personally think they need to go find a 35 year old chief

00:25:25   internet officer. That's what they need. They don't need a big company. They don't need to buy a lot of things. They need to buy a

00:25:33   guy or a gal who are native internet thinkers who are in their mid 30s who have grown up on

00:25:41   broadband who think about devices from a connected experience. So if I was free I would volunteer, but I'm not.

00:25:48   But they would look, you know, there's a guy who runs Snapguide. He's a friend of mine, Daniel Raffer.

00:25:54   you know, he could be a good guy to run their, you know, their internet like

00:25:59   ideology, they need the internet ideology and they need to

00:26:02   Inculcate the whole company with connected thinking and I don't think they have it

00:26:09   I just look at all their products great as they are

00:26:12   I would not be able to use anything from any other company

00:26:15   But they still need to think about the services as part of the core software

00:26:21   up in experience and I and if they need to go away from this what's happening

00:26:25   with iCloud it's it just is bringing in that DNA I mean I know it sounds kind of

00:26:31   out there but at least that's how I think about it I I agree though I think

00:26:37   that there's I've always said that I think for anybody whether it's a person

00:26:41   or even an institution where you start informs where you're going how you're

00:26:48   going to look at things forever. And, you know, Apple started pre-internet by decades.

00:26:56   And I mean, just for example, I went, my freshman year of college was 1991. And I went to a

00:27:02   very technical university. I mean, Drexel was, you know, super nerdy. I mean, it was

00:27:06   one of the first, famously one of the first colleges that required all students to have

00:27:11   computer. But when I got there in 1991, and everybody was supposed to buy a Mac, and that

00:27:18   you could buy them at terrific discounts, student discounts. So you go there, and the

00:27:23   second day you'd go and pick up your Mac from this student center where they had all

00:27:28   the ones that you bought through the university. You take it up in your dorm, and the only

00:27:33   thing you connected it to was the power supply in the wall. There was no Ethernet in the

00:27:38   dorms yet. And modems were incredibly expensive. The cheapest modem was three or four hundred

00:27:45   bucks. So we all hooked up our computers. And freshman year, we ended up making our

00:27:52   own little network. It was this little—remember these things? I don't know if you remember

00:27:56   these things. PhoneNet?

00:27:57   Darrell Bock Yeah.

00:27:57   Dave

00:27:57   Yeah.

00:27:58   …where it was like you'd plug it in the serial port of the Mac, and then you could

00:28:02   just use either copper wiring or just phone cabling.

00:28:06   And it was just copper wiring, and you'd get a little Apple local—what was it called?

00:28:12   Local talk network.

00:28:15   We did that so we could play games against each other.

00:28:16   But it wasn't a campus-wide network.

00:28:18   It was just the people in the dorm hallway who we ran copper wiring between.

00:28:24   That was our network, which is crazy, you know, in hindsight.

00:28:27   I mean, and anybody who's younger than me, even just by five years, even somebody who

00:28:32   went to college five years after me, it's almost laughable that you would have a computer

00:28:38   in your dorm room and not have it hooked up to any sort of network.

00:28:41   Right.

00:28:42   I mean, it's almost like I'm sure that anybody who is that young is laughing right now.

00:28:46   They're probably laughing out loud.

00:28:48   Or they think I'm exaggerating.

00:28:50   And I think there's a lot of people, you know, that still is Apple's root, where you buy

00:28:55   a beautiful Apple computing product.

00:28:58   And it's a really thoughtful interface.

00:29:01   It's beautiful.

00:29:03   It feels good in your hand.

00:29:05   And you go home, and you use it by yourself.

00:29:09   Right.

00:29:10   But that was then.

00:29:11   And what is now is that all the people

00:29:16   start with the experience of being connected and services

00:29:21   just being there, right?

00:29:22   and like how all those things connect

00:29:25   with the actual hardware also defines

00:29:28   how we feel about the hardware,

00:29:30   not just the user experience level.

00:29:33   The user experience also means

00:29:36   the internet experience now, right?

00:29:38   And I think that's a change in how the world

00:29:42   thinks about these things.

00:29:43   I just wish, you know, there was like more thought

00:29:49   being put into this at the Apple on this front.

00:29:55   At least I feel they don't think about it that much.

00:29:59   Well, I think they do.

00:30:00   But I don't know, though, that it's high enough a priority.

00:30:03   And some of the stuff they've done really is great

00:30:05   and has worked really well.

00:30:07   I mean, I think that the iCloud backups for iOS devices

00:30:10   has been an unheralded success.

00:30:14   I think the fact that most people seem

00:30:17   have it on, you know, it's opt-in. Everybody has to make a choice, right? When you turn

00:30:25   on your new iPhone or iPad, you've got to go through this setup where you, you know,

00:30:30   if you already have an iCloud account, you can enter it. And if you don't, they encourage

00:30:34   you strongly, but don't force you to create one. And if you do, they ask if you want to

00:30:38   back up to iCloud.

00:30:39   Right.

00:30:40   And from everything I've heard from people who do tech support for people and daring

00:30:47   Fireball readers who work as geniuses in the stores and stuff like that, it's been a huge,

00:30:52   huge success because now people come in with a dead iPhone and either buy a new one or

00:30:59   get a replacement under warranty or whatever, and they type their iCloud password into the

00:31:05   replacement one and while they're in the store on Apple's super fast Wi-Fi, boom, their stuff

00:31:10   his back, as opposed to before, they'd be like, "Back it up, Hal." And they'd just look

00:31:16   at the guy, and he'd be like, "Did you ever plug it in your computer?" And they're like,

00:31:19   "I think I did when I—the day I bought it, and that was the last time they'd plugged

00:31:23   it into their computer." And so everything they had after that, you know, was gone.

00:31:28   So I think that's been a huge success for Apple. But it's monolithic, right? It's restoring—it's

00:31:36   whole you know you can restore your whole phone to a new phone and that it

00:31:40   does work well but I feel like the incremental updates you know this just

00:31:47   the little stuff throughout the day of having you know your records in each app

00:31:51   sync seamlessly between devices is you know it's it's a huge challenge for them

00:31:57   we look I I'm a believer that they can get it right if of all the people out

00:32:04   there they're the one company which will understand how human beings like to use

00:32:12   you know the internet and a connectivity and all those things and bring it all

00:32:18   together but they need to make it a top priority like I wrote a little tiny post

00:32:23   last night in which Microsoft Robbie Bach and one of the other guys talking

00:32:29   about Microsoft Kin in 2010.

00:32:34   Three years later, Zuckerberg used pretty much the same language describing Facebook

00:32:40   Home and in three years what Microsoft couldn't get it right, Facebook got it right because

00:32:46   they are an internet native company.

00:32:49   Microsoft had the right ideas, just was a bad UX, bad UI and bad execution.

00:32:56   that company is like their middle name should be bad execution right like they

00:33:01   come up with technologies first and they can't execute on it and I don't know why

00:33:05   you know they were the first ones with tablet and just couldn't get it right

00:33:09   they were the first ones with like a proper smartphone with like a

00:33:12   programmable software with Windows CE and they still couldn't get it right so

00:33:18   as a company they're bad they're bad execution guys but the key Microsoft kin

00:33:24   made a lot of sense they were talking about people centric they were talking

00:33:28   about content and context they were talking about all these things three

00:33:32   years ago but they were not a native internet company so they didn't quite

00:33:37   understand how to do it right Facebook yesterday when I saw it my issues with

00:33:43   their privacy you know you know disregarding privacy aside that's an

00:33:49   actually a product built for the connected age right but there are a lot

00:33:53   of people use it or not remains to be seen, but it takes into the account that you're

00:33:58   always on. You're always engaging with the smartphone. You're always connected. And

00:34:04   I think that's the thinking of that web thinking is there. And that's what Apple

00:34:10   needs.

00:34:11   That's what I…

00:34:12   That's… And let's hold the privacy discussion for a moment. But the one note

00:34:17   I have written down to speak to you about is, to me, what it is is proof of something

00:34:22   that I've suspected for a while which is that Facebook now realizes that they've

00:34:27   had a change of heart at some point in the last few years where they realized

00:34:30   that they're not a website they're a service. The website is just one

00:34:38   way to access the service and that they need to think that way and you know

00:34:43   and now mobile is a different way to access the service. Yeah I totally agree

00:34:48   with you now think about it this way that they with the new Facebook home

00:34:55   they're essentially saying what has been Facebook since 2005 the whole newsfeed

00:35:02   idea it's okay to not have that idea let's break up everything into

00:35:07   individual components I mean that's the big implication of yesterday's news is

00:35:13   that they're okay, you know, disaggregating the entire Facebook experience into a whole

00:35:20   different screen, right?

00:35:22   Right.

00:35:23   And that--

00:35:24   It's not just that one web, canonical website interface.

00:35:27   Yeah.

00:35:28   And I think that is a very interesting way of looking at Facebook now.

00:35:33   It's like, okay, if they're a service, I agree with you, 100%, they're a service.

00:35:38   really and they're finally beginning to embrace that bit.

00:35:45   Maybe they've already always embraced it, just not talking.

00:35:47   No, I don't think so.

00:35:48   I think their old mindset was what's the best way to get our website to people, including

00:35:53   even their initial efforts on mobile, which I think was mostly just wrapping the website

00:35:57   into an app.

00:35:58   It was how do we get our website into an app.

00:36:01   Whereas now I think they're thinking what's the best way – what's the best interface

00:36:05   to get our information, our service to its users.

00:36:10   And if it's native code, it's native code, then do it.

00:36:15   Then let's hire designers and developers

00:36:20   who are gonna kick ass at it.

00:36:21   Because that's the other thing too.

00:36:23   Did you get your hands on the phone yesterday?

00:36:25   - Yeah, I did.

00:36:26   - Was it as smooth as it looked in the videos and the demos?

00:36:28   - Actually better.

00:36:30   I was completely, they exceeded my expectations.

00:36:35   Let's get back to that in a second. Let me take a break here for a sponsor and that's

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00:39:51   I just downloaded it man, spent 18 bucks on it.

00:39:55   It's a great app, it really is. It's just fantastic. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

00:40:03   So anyway, smoothness, animation smoothness, that's one of the things that really blew me away.

00:40:09   And it's one of the things, I don't even use Facebook, I've never signed up for it.

00:40:13   But I'm fascinated by the company and keep my eye on them.

00:40:17   on them. And the one thing all of us, anybody who covers the industry has noticed over the

00:40:21   last two years is that they've hired an enormous amount of design talent. A lot of people who

00:40:28   used to work at Apple, Mike Mattes, for example, iOS developers, the guys who did Kaleidoscope,

00:40:37   what were they called, Sofa, and a couple of other great apps, like really high quality

00:40:44   the type of apps that win and have won Apple Design Awards, those type of developers and

00:40:49   designers. Facebook has been hiring as fast as they can get them. And I know firsthand from a

00:40:56   bunch of my friends that they've reached out to more who've turned them down.

00:41:02   Dr. Ahmad S

00:41:02   Yeah, they're stockpiling the nuclear weapons of design war man. They're just bringing on anybody and everybody

00:41:10   I actually had a list and then I just the list was got so big that I just forgot and like I said

00:41:18   Let's give up keeping track of these people and I think

00:41:21   My my take is that these guys are gonna stop and nothing to get get it right for all different kind of

00:41:32   of device experiences and all kinds of web experiences.

00:41:36   I do agree with you that they are splintering away

00:41:40   from the idea of a unified feed and becoming more of a--

00:41:45   more of-- sorry.

00:41:52   Thinking of the information as being

00:41:54   abstract from the interface for it, right?

00:41:56   And then here's this device.

00:41:58   Here's a four-inch device.

00:41:59   What's the best interface for this?

00:42:01   Well, it's nothing at all like it is on your 21 inch monitor

00:42:04   where you're running a web browser.

00:42:06   - Right.

00:42:07   So much design thinking in the company

00:42:11   means that they are thinking about data and design

00:42:16   and screen in a very contextual, very thoughtful manner.

00:42:21   I think that's a new thing about what Facebook is doing.

00:42:25   And I think this is going to be an interesting challenge

00:42:29   for our friends at Apple,

00:42:32   like how do they think about all these things, right?

00:42:34   Like, I don't think data has been part of their thinking.

00:42:38   I don't think, you know,

00:42:39   internet has been part of their experience thinking so far.

00:42:44   You know, they can still continue to just make hardware

00:42:47   and make software and still do what they do,

00:42:50   but design and the connectedness are,

00:42:53   oh sorry, data and connectedness,

00:42:55   or the state of connectedness are part of the thinking

00:42:59   which they need to have, which is what I think these guys are able to do.

00:43:03   Look, Google has done the same thing.

00:43:06   I don't know if you've noticed Google's apps have just gotten infinitely better looking

00:43:11   than they used to.

00:43:12   And the reason is that they're also understanding that apps on the desktop don't necessarily

00:43:18   have to work like the way they do on the mobile.

00:43:24   But they're also going in the, you know, they're coming up with same design language as for

00:43:29   various different screens, which is the Google Look, the Apple Look, the Facebook Look, and

00:43:35   all these guys are thinking about that.

00:43:37   And I think from my standpoint, I do feel that Facebook has a slight advantage right

00:43:43   now.

00:43:44   I gently disagree with you, though.

00:43:47   I feel that what Facebook showed yesterday is more of a threat to Google than Apple,

00:43:52   I feel like what Facebook has done has become to me, and I haven't seen the phone firsthand,

00:43:58   but I really do take your word for it, and the videos were pretty impressive, but it

00:44:03   looks to me like the first other company that's created an Apple quality, humane interface

00:44:10   for touch in terms of the organic-ness of the way that animations work.

00:44:19   And it's not just that things bounce, it's the way that they bounce and stretch.

00:44:22   And like I said, like, making it feel organic is the best way I can think to put it.

00:44:29   And while Google's iOS apps, I think, have gotten really good and consistent and have

00:44:35   a very nice Google-wide brand, I don't see that on their Android apps.

00:44:40   Their Android apps, to me, and it's, to me, it stems, I think it's purposeful, I think

00:44:45   It stems from the whole name Android, that they've gone for this sort of robotic aesthetic.

00:44:53   But it's sterile in a way that like when you bounce, when you scroll in lists and stuff

00:44:59   like that and you get to the end, it doesn't bounce at all.

00:45:01   It just ends.

00:45:02   It feels very mechanical.

00:45:05   There's no organicness to it.

00:45:06   I feel like it lacks humanity.

00:45:09   And that to me is a problem for Google because what Google wants, I think, most is not to

00:45:14   to be more like Apple and sell their own $700 phones and tablets, but to be more like Facebook

00:45:23   and have people share their personal information and do their social networking through Google

00:45:27   Plus. And I feel like Facebook getting more humane in their design helps Facebook stay

00:45:36   ahead of Google in that regard.

00:45:39   Hmm, okay. I mean, you know, I do feel that there are all these three companies are all

00:45:46   on the, you know, they're going on a collision course, so to speak.

00:45:51   And well, and among the other news this week on the collision course, so we've got Amazon

00:45:57   who already has tablets based on Android, like complete forks. Now they've hired Charlie

00:46:04   Kindle, who has the most amazing name for someone to be hired by Amazon, even

00:46:09   though he has the E and the L transposed versus their e-readers. But he

00:46:15   used to work at Microsoft on mobile, and since leaving Microsoft has written, I

00:46:22   think, extremely cogently—I mean, I've linked to him several times on Daring

00:46:26   Fireball, his blog, and very astute—a very astute observer of the mobile

00:46:31   industry as a whole for a quote unquote secret project.

00:46:35   But I think, you know, is there anybody who isn't thinking that he's been hired by

00:46:39   Amazon to lead their mobile phone?

00:46:41   No, I don't think that anything, it's nothing, it's, I am convinced that it's,

00:46:48   it's a phone and Charlie's gonna help build that.

00:46:52   And I think that's a great hire because, like I said, just from reading his blog where

00:46:56   it seems to me like for the, you know, I mean, obviously I think that's gonna, his openness

00:47:00   is going to stop in that regard. But I think he's a really astute observer of what's, you know,

00:47:06   what's made the mobile industry tick over the last few years.

00:47:09   So I had a chance to meet with him and be on a panel with him like a couple of months ago.

00:47:16   And man, that guy is one smart cookie. I can't believe, you know, Microsoft lets people like him

00:47:25   walk out. It just is amazing to me. And it just boggles my mind like how can you have

00:47:32   talent like that just walk out. But most important thing I think from an Amazon's perspective is

00:47:39   that how much of the the experience they are going to control from a shopping standpoint now

00:47:47   if they have a phone also. I mean that just is just going to be amazingly brilliant way

00:47:54   of thinking about shopping and buying things.

00:47:57   And it just is amazing how those guys are thinking about the world.

00:48:02   And you have to kind of think about it.

00:48:06   There's the old adage, follow the money.

00:48:08   And so these guys are all competing with each other.

00:48:11   And let's just take phones.

00:48:12   It's not even talk tablets, but just phones.

00:48:15   Almost everybody only has one phone at a time.

00:48:19   Guys like me and you might have an office full of phones

00:48:22   and more than one SIM card at a time because we're testing phones and stuff like that.

00:48:26   I mean, we're clearly oddballs, right? And business guys who have an iPhone and a Blackberry

00:48:32   or something like that, there's such a small number of people, it's not even worth thinking

00:48:37   about, right? People get one phone at a time. And unless it breaks or something like that,

00:48:41   they keep it for at least two years because they buy it under contract.

00:48:46   So there are—there's absolutely—they're all competing against each other because they

00:48:50   They want you, when you go buy your next phone,

00:48:53   to buy their phone, right?

00:48:55   So there's definitely competition.

00:48:56   But their interests are all very, very different.

00:48:59   Apple really just wants you to buy the iPhone

00:49:02   'cause they make a lot of money

00:49:03   once you've bought the iPhone.

00:49:04   And they wanna keep you happy

00:49:05   so that you'll use their services and stuff like that.

00:49:08   But they've already got the money

00:49:09   and their main interest in making you happy

00:49:11   is so that the next phone you buy is also an iPhone.

00:49:14   Google and Facebook are primarily in the ad business, right?

00:49:19   They want you to use their stuff because they want to be able to make money on the ads they're

00:49:23   going to show you.

00:49:24   And Amazon, different than all the others, just wants you to buy stuff from Amazon.

00:49:30   And if you are going to buy more stuff because your phone is an Amazon phone, that's great.

00:49:36   I think they should just give these devices away for free.

00:49:41   I mean, my view is both the tablets and the phones, if they make them, they should give

00:49:47   them away for free if they want people to shop from them constantly.

00:49:51   I mean, it's like the logic on buying an iPhone is, or maybe even a Samsung Android, is that

00:50:01   you can basically go to any place and buy anything or do anything without regard of

00:50:09   one specific service.

00:50:11   And that is, you know, a Swiss model.

00:50:15   I mean, I kinda like that, but if these companies,

00:50:18   let's say,

00:50:19   Facebook or even Amazon want us to buy their phone,

00:50:25   they shouldn't try and make us spend a lot of money on them.

00:50:30   I would want them for free.

00:50:31   So that, yeah, I'll happily shop on it, no problems.

00:50:35   I mean, I shop on it like,

00:50:36   I mean, I buy pretty much everything on Amazon right now.

00:50:39   - I buy everything I can buy on Amazon from Amazon,

00:50:42   just about.

00:50:43   If I can't, you know, and if I think that they have it, I check there first.

00:50:51   It's definitely true for me.

00:50:52   I've had the same thought on the Facebook phone pricing.

00:50:55   With Apple, they don't want...

00:50:58   It's in their interest to have a phone that is free with a contract, you know, the two-year-old

00:51:03   iPhone 4 now.

00:51:07   But not as their big new, this is the thing when they come up on stage and unveil something

00:51:13   new. They don't want to come out with something new and say that it's free. It doesn't work

00:51:17   for them because it doesn't help their brand image as a premium brand. It's this sort of

00:51:25   premium luxury or affordable luxury, I should say, where it's not like buying a Rolex watch

00:51:33   where it's way too expensive for most people. It's, "Hey, here's the best phone on the market

00:51:38   and you can afford it because it starts at $1.99, right?

00:51:41   It's this affordable luxury.

00:51:44   Free doesn't fit in with that.

00:51:45   Whereas with the Facebook thing, with like the HTC first,

00:51:50   I don't know, if they're going to show ads in the thing,

00:51:53   to me, like, why not make it free?

00:51:56   With the contract, with the, in terms of,

00:51:59   well then how do you get AT&T on board?

00:52:01   You get AT&T on board because it's still the two-year

00:52:04   contract, not a free phone that you don't have

00:52:07   the obligation for but quote unquote free right agreed like I am with you and

00:52:13   that 100% they need to figure that one out and they would actually do well if

00:52:17   they were making an actual phone which was for free and people could you know

00:52:22   get it for free and and they could show ads on it great I mean I'm I'm pretty

00:52:28   sure there's like you know many many people who would want something like

00:52:32   Yeah, and you know, and Amazon's the one who I think is most likely to just go there, just

00:52:39   do it maybe even out of the gate and just say, "Look, the damn thing's gonna be free."

00:52:43   Because they, you know, their pricing, their, their, their, it's, competing with them on

00:52:48   price is almost crazy because they'll do crazy things and, and they have the support from

00:52:52   their shareholders to do that, to, to run the, you know, the business at break even

00:52:56   or even slightly under.

00:53:00   So can we talk a little bit about this WebKit fork because I'm trying to understand this

00:53:09   and you've been blogging pretty extensively about it.

00:53:12   Well, you know what?

00:53:14   Let's do that, but let me do the second sponsor break first and then we can finish the show

00:53:17   by talking about the WebKit.

00:53:18   Okay.

00:53:19   All right.

00:53:20   Our second sponsor, as mentioned at the outset, is audible.com.

00:53:26   Audible.com is the leading provider of downloadable audiobooks with over 100,000 titles in virtually

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00:54:07   offer. That will let them know you're coming from this show, and it will automatically

00:54:13   qualify you for the 30-day free trial.

00:54:19   They always like a recommendation from the hosts.

00:54:23   I have a great recommendation for an audiobook.

00:54:26   Perfect for this week and it's perfect for you, Om.

00:54:30   Right now, and you know what,

00:54:31   and I don't think people appreciate this, Om,

00:54:33   that you and I are voluntary,

00:54:34   we're missing a Yankees game right now to do this show.

00:54:39   The Yankees are playing the Detroit Tigers.

00:54:41   I haven't looked at the score.

00:54:42   Have you looked at the score?

00:54:43   - I'm just scared to look at the score.

00:54:45   - You know what, I felt good last night.

00:54:47   I felt good last night watching 40-year-old Andy Pettit throw eight innings and 43-year-old

00:54:53   Mariano Rivera get the save.

00:54:56   You know, just to feeling a little old, I would say as guys who've been doing what

00:55:02   we've been doing for a very long time, it is good to see some old guys.

00:55:08   It warmed my heart.

00:55:09   It warmed my heart to see guys my age save the Yankees season.

00:55:14   They were 0-2 going into it.

00:55:16   Perfect for the start of baseball season is this book. It's called "Scorecasting,

00:55:20   the hidden influences behind how sports are played and games are won." And it's by

00:55:26   two economists, L. Ron Wertheim and Tobias Moskowitz. And it's just a fascinating

00:55:34   book. And it's for sports fans combined with math fans,

00:55:40   statistical fans. And it's just chock full of the the intersection of psychology and statistics.

00:55:48   And they make like a great case that statistically, this is just one example, statistically in US pro

00:55:55   football, teams should almost never punt. They should almost never punt on fourth down. They

00:56:01   should go for it almost all the time except in extreme circumstances. And instead, across all

00:56:06   levels of football, high school, college, and especially pro coaches are super, super

00:56:10   conservative and on almost every fourth down they do punt. Why? It's, it's even

00:56:15   though the stats show you'd be better off, you'd win more games by not punting,

00:56:19   it's the psychology of it and that you feel like when you don't make it you're

00:56:23   losing more than you gain when you do make it, right? It's, that's the

00:56:29   psychology of it. The book is just chock full of examples like that for all

00:56:34   sports it's not just about football it's not just about baseball but basketball

00:56:38   they go into great have a great chapter on the home field advantage and where it

00:56:43   where it comes from and how the home field advantage holds up across all

00:56:48   sports soccer football baseball all team sports all around the world how all

00:56:53   every one of them has a very very consistent home field advantage it's a

00:56:57   great book for sports fans who love stats it's called score casting and they

00:57:02   They have it there on audible.com.

00:57:08   So the WebKit thing.

00:57:10   I don't know what to make of this.

00:57:12   I really don't.

00:57:13   Can we talk Yankees before we talk WebKit?

00:57:15   Yeah, we can talk Yankees, definitely.

00:57:18   This has been a hard year, man.

00:57:20   It's been like going into it and I'm looking at this and like, who are these people?

00:57:24   I don't even know them.

00:57:26   It's like this like two hundred and twenty nine million dollars for like this team. Oh my god

00:57:31   It is just I think you know, I wrote a little post on my personal blog

00:57:37   om.co

00:57:39   basically bemoaning that

00:57:41   This is gonna be a tough year to be a Yankee fan and it will test our faith like nothing has ever before

00:57:48   Well, man, it's like day four and I'm like, oh my god

00:57:52   I guess like oh my god is like my favorite expression as far as the Yankees course are concerned

00:57:57   The score is actually six three. I just looked at and

00:58:01   Three in the seventh and Nunez just left to injury. I don't know what is going on

00:58:07   You know what right before we got started the show right before we started I?

00:58:10   Had watched while I ate lunch and him it happened after I that but I saw an update that he'd gotten hit by a pinch

00:58:17   And was apparently really really writhing around and pay and I hope that's not it but

00:58:21   - Wow man, this is gonna be some year.

00:58:25   - This is the first time I can remember

00:58:28   since sometime maybe in the early 90s

00:58:30   where the opening day lineup was filled with,

00:58:35   who the hell is that?

00:58:36   I've never heard of this guy.

00:58:37   Travis Hafner and I mean I've heard of Vernon Wells,

00:58:41   but I mean you really had to be paying attention

00:58:42   to even realize the Yankees had signed him.

00:58:45   They only had three guys on their opening day lineup

00:58:47   from the year before.

00:58:48   Whereas for the last, I don't know, 15, 16 years,

00:58:52   they've really had a lot of continuity

00:58:56   from season to season.

00:58:57   I don't know.

00:58:59   It's either gonna be a brutal year to be a Yankee fan,

00:59:01   a real brutal, I mean, just really horrible,

00:59:05   or some of these young guys and the new guys

00:59:08   are gonna step up and it's gonna be kinda awesome

00:59:10   because it might be reinvigorating

00:59:13   to get some new blood onto the lineup

00:59:15   if they can play first place baseball?

00:59:19   - Well, let's hope so.

00:59:21   I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

00:59:25   Let's see what happens.

00:59:27   But let's get back to Chrome and WebKit.

00:59:32   - Blink. - And Blink.

00:59:33   - I'm not sure about that name.

00:59:36   I still think, I'm still scarred from 1995

00:59:40   when the Blink tag was hooked up in Netscape.

00:59:44   I'm not sure if that's a nod to that or if it's something else.

00:59:48   I guess it's supposed to be about how fast it is.

00:59:50   I mean, that's what they say is there.

00:59:52   I mean, and admittedly, Chrome is a very, very fast browser,

00:59:56   maybe the fastest of the major browsers.

00:59:59   You know, I'm not sure if it's also supposed to be like a wink, wink,

01:00:04   nudge, nudge to the Blink tag.

01:00:07   >> You know, I don't know what the name is.

01:00:09   I bet you most of those kids don't even know the Blink tag.

01:00:13   they may have not even remembered it.

01:00:15   Yeah, you know what that might be.

01:00:17   It might be.

01:00:18   So the politics of this whole situation is pretty interesting.

01:00:23   That post by Rob Isaac, who's a developer based in New Zealand, was pretty fun to read.

01:00:31   Actually he did the bullshit to English translation on the whole FAQ on Blink, which was pretty

01:00:39   awesome to read.

01:00:40   Yeah, and he took a very "this is political and we're trying to screw Apple" sort of stance

01:00:44   to it. I'm not sure that that's true, and I'm not one, I think my reputation is one to sort of,

01:00:49   by default, you know, to be one to think that app, that Google is a bit more scheming and

01:00:56   less open and less, or more disingenuous than people give them credit for. But I'm not sure

01:01:02   that's the case here. I really don't. I really don't know what to make of this.

01:01:07   Look, there's a little bit of truth that there's politics involved.

01:01:13   And I think there is a truth that WebKit has become a little bit, you know, big and bloated,

01:01:19   I guess.

01:01:20   I mean, if that's the right way to describe it.

01:01:22   So…

01:01:23   Well, or at least the… from their perspective as the developers of WebKit, it has gotten

01:01:29   bloated, right?

01:01:31   And I think that's the argument that, forget his name, but one of the Chrome developers

01:01:34   made was that it's just got all of these build targets for platforms that Chrome doesn't

01:01:39   care about.

01:01:40   So why are they – they're stuck making sure that all of their changes don't cause

01:01:46   problems on all of these other platforms that use WebKit that Chrome doesn't care about

01:01:50   because Chrome only runs on Mac, Windows, iOS, and Android, right?

01:01:55   So why do they care if it causes a problem on the Nokia phone or something like that

01:02:00   or, you know, Blackberry?

01:02:02   You know, why are they developing, fixing bugs that they don't care about?

01:02:07   Right.

01:02:08   I, you know, I totally see their standpoint on this.

01:02:11   I think it'll be, I've also heard, and I don't know if you've heard something similar that

01:02:16   Apple is working on their own, you know, twist on, on WebKit and whatnot.

01:02:26   So

01:02:27   You know what?

01:02:28   I did hear something like that.

01:02:31   And again, I don't, what I heard somebody, something, something about maybe a new web

01:02:36   rendering engine from Apple, I don't think, when I hear new web rendering engine, I don't

01:02:41   think brand new, although that is what Mozilla and Samsung are apparently working on.

01:02:46   I think it's another, you know, it's starting with WebKit and doing something new with it,

01:02:51   you know.

01:02:52   And I do think that's the one thing that people aren't clear about, a lot of people aren't

01:02:54   clear about with Blink, is that Blink is not like a brand new web rendering engine from

01:02:59   Google and they're walking away from WebKit. Blink is Google saying we're taking a fork of WebKit as

01:03:05   it stands today and making our own new thing Blink starting with it. In the same way that WebKit

01:03:12   didn't start from scratch, it started with look we're going to take khtml and make this thing

01:03:17   called WebKit from it. You know, I think that that translation from Isaac that you talked to,

01:03:27   He seemed to me seem to be under the impression that they're talking up a new a brand new web engine in blink

01:03:34   But that's not what blink is

01:03:36   well

01:03:38   It could be in the future right like sir look. They they have a lot of you know

01:03:44   invested in in in in Chrome right Chrome OS and the Chrome browser

01:03:51   So it would make perfect sense for them to do what they need to do

01:03:55   to make that investment pay off properly.

01:03:58   - Well.

01:03:59   - I mean, look, just these are big companies

01:04:03   with big businesses, right?

01:04:05   I wouldn't put it past them to do it.

01:04:08   And you know, I wouldn't, I guess, yes,

01:04:12   as a user of the web and web services,

01:04:16   this is going to be a little bit painful

01:04:21   and not right, but I guess, you know,

01:04:24   what happens next is is still to be seen right I don't know if it's gonna be

01:04:31   painful I I'm I don't I think it's a different I think the way that these

01:04:34   browser wars go today is very different from those of the late 90s where it

01:04:43   really was so hard then to have even moderately complicated web app that

01:04:52   worked in all the major browsers and on Mac and Windows. It really was almost like you

01:04:57   had to rewrite it each time for each one and detect each one. And then when somebody else

01:05:03   came out with a new browser, it didn't work at all because it wasn't one of the browsers

01:05:06   you actually sniffed for and explicitly served the custom code for. I don't think that we're

01:05:12   seeing that anymore. I feel like, you know, I feel like there's this baseline of HTML5.

01:05:17   I feel like HTML5 standards thing has been so successful

01:05:23   that that's a really-- it's a pretty consistent baseline

01:05:25   that developers can hit.

01:05:27   And even IE does a pretty good job with it nowadays.

01:05:31   I think it's more about what's coming next, the next stuff.

01:05:36   It's not the stuff that we already have,

01:05:38   like how does the CSS3 we're already using render,

01:05:42   and what's the spacing, and stuff like that.

01:05:44   I think it's about stuff like for Google,

01:05:46   might be about like, what do they call it, NACL, the Native Client, which is just, you

01:05:54   know, hasn't really taken off yet. But I know a lot of people who really keenly think that

01:05:59   it might be a big new thing coming. But it's this way to get native code, code that runs

01:06:05   as fast as native compiled code, running in the browser, but with all the security advantages

01:06:12   of a browser where it's all sandboxed from your actual computer. So you're getting, you know,

01:06:17   you could have a game that runs through Chrome with native performance, not JavaScript performance,

01:06:24   not let's make JavaScript faster, but actual native performance and, you know, the hooking up to the

01:06:30   graphics processor on the computer and getting, you know, OpenGL and stuff like that.

01:06:41   But with the-- look, you don't have to install anything.

01:06:43   You just go to this URL and the native code loads,

01:06:47   just like you go to a website.

01:06:48   So getting that baked into their web rendering engine

01:06:53   at whatever layer they see as the best fit

01:06:56   is a huge win for Google, I think,

01:06:59   as opposed to trying to get Apple to allow them to put it

01:07:02   in the WebKit, which I think wasn't going to happen.

01:07:04   Whether that's for politics or whether Apple

01:07:08   has good reasons for that, you don't even have to--

01:07:10   you don't have to agree what the reason was. It's, you know, it just probably wasn't going to happen

01:07:14   as long as Apple was in charge of WebKit. But maybe Apple wants to do their own version of

01:07:19   that, right? Like that's pretty likely too. It very well could be. I definitely think so. And,

01:07:25   you know, and Apple, that's one of those ways that Apple and Google are different is that culturally

01:07:30   Google will talk about what it's doing first and then ship it. You know, Google Glass, another

01:07:36   example right been talking about it for a while been showing it for a while

01:07:40   having a preview you know the way Apple does stuff is they keep it secret secret

01:07:44   secret secret okay now it's for sale next week and that's the same way it was

01:07:48   with WebKit and what do you call it a multi-processing model where the the

01:07:55   rendering engine is separate from the browser application both for security

01:08:00   and hopefully for performance but you know so far in Safari I don't think it's

01:08:04   out that way for performance. But Chrome has this multi-process rendering model where each

01:08:11   tab you open gets a separate process called a WebKit renderer that just renders that tab.

01:08:20   Safari has one separate process that renders all of your tabs, but it is still a separate

01:08:24   process from the actual Safari browser application. But it's two totally different ways of doing

01:08:30   doing it. And you know, that's just one of the points of conflict between Google and

01:08:36   Apple and WebKit over the last few years.

01:08:39   You know, somebody really needs to write an explainer for human beings, right? Like, what

01:08:45   it really means for people. I mean, I'm trying to figure out, you know, what this really

01:08:51   means. And like, you know, and it's like really hard to understand.

01:08:54   I it's very hard for me to understand. And I've been as close to this stuff as you know,

01:09:00   I could be for all along. I mean all the way from like 1995, but it's really really hard.

01:09:05   I think it's you know web rendering engines have become so

01:09:08   sprawling in scope and so important to everybody in daily use that it's

01:09:13   It's almost hard to get your head wrapped around everything that they do

01:09:17   so

01:09:20   before we

01:09:22   Stop talking about this stuff. Can I ask you one question? You can ask me anything home?

01:09:27   So what does Apple do next in your opinion?

01:09:30   Overall or just with the web rendering engines no would like the product being a picture a big picture I

01:09:38   Think they just keep going as they've been going I think you know new iPhone

01:09:48   new iPads and

01:09:51   You know who knows what else but I don't know that they need to do much else

01:09:55   I think that hardware-wise, their machine has been working.

01:09:59   Machine meaning that the whole operation has been working just terrific, I think, year

01:10:05   after year pumping out significant improvements.

01:10:09   I think it's like we said half an hour ago, I think it's the cloud services is the big

01:10:14   can they do it.

01:10:15   Great.

01:10:16   Do you think they need to change a little bit how they work as a company?

01:10:23   the privacy they worked with in the past may have worked in the era of Steve Jobs when

01:10:28   he was the storyteller of the company or do they need to change their tactics?

01:10:34   You know, I was thinking about this earlier in the show and I didn't say it, but I do

01:10:37   think that one of the areas where maybe they really might need to change is with the cloud

01:10:42   services, I think that they need to iterate faster.

01:10:47   I think that this schedule of, we'll tell you what we've been up to at WWDC and then

01:10:55   you'll hear from us again in 12 months.

01:10:58   It doesn't, it works for hardware.

01:11:00   As frustrating as some people are that they don't talk about hardware, they don't release

01:11:04   a phone every three months or that they don't talk about new phones six months in advance,

01:11:09   you know, because people just are dying to know about it.

01:11:11   It does work for them to keep the hardware secret until they're ready.

01:11:16   sort of works for them with the system software because they can unveil it at something like

01:11:21   WWDC as a beta to get developers on board two three months in advance

01:11:25   But they get to unveil it at a show and and get a lot of publicity at it

01:11:31   but I think with the cloud stuff like you said Facebook is saying that they're going to be updating the

01:11:36   Facebook home on a monthly schedule

01:11:39   Right. I feel like with the iCloud stuff waiting a year between

01:11:46   updates to iCloud, it just doesn't work.

01:11:51   And it doesn't work for developers, and it doesn't work for users, right?

01:11:54   I feel like – and this core data syncing thing is the epitome of this problem, because

01:12:04   it's not just that they haven't fixed it.

01:12:07   It's that developers don't even know if they're going to fix it, right?

01:12:11   Apple actually even have-- is Apple taking this as seriously as the developers who are

01:12:16   depending upon it hope that they are? Nobody knows, right? So if you're this developer,

01:12:21   if you're developing an app for the iOS or the Mac or something like that, and your app

01:12:26   depends on Core Data, and you're hoping to use or you're trying to use, you've actually

01:12:30   got it in the store and it's supposed to be using Core Data syncing, but your users are

01:12:34   running into these bugs that are like wiping out their whole library on the iPhone, and

01:12:40   And then, you know, hopefully when it syncs, whatever's in the iCloud version is what they

01:12:44   had before.

01:12:45   And if not, they've lost data.

01:12:49   And you don't know.

01:12:50   Is Apple taking this seriously and you should wait, wait for WWDC because there's good news

01:12:55   coming?

01:12:56   But if you don't know, if you just, you ask and you get nothing back, what is that, what

01:13:01   should you do?

01:13:02   Should you wait anyway or should you decide, "I'm going to bite the bullet and rewrite

01:13:06   the whole thing from scratch and use something else?"

01:13:08   And I feel like that uncertainty is worse.

01:13:11   It's like the worst situation that the developers could be in.

01:13:15   So in terms of where Apple should go, I feel like with the iCloud stuff that developers

01:13:20   are relying on, I really feel like open maybe isn't the right word, but they just need to

01:13:25   iterate more quickly in terms of updates and in terms of conveying to developers where

01:13:32   this is going.

01:13:33   Right. I think that would be a good change if they made I would be in favor of something

01:13:40   like that. It'd be fun to see them kind of adopt to this new world in a different way.

01:13:46   Here's a here's another way to put it. There's an old adage, especially from the open source world

01:13:52   to ship early and often. And Apple's never been a ship early and often company Apple's been a

01:13:58   work on it and keep it and iterate. Do the often part. Do the iterate part, but do it

01:14:03   all internally and wait until it's ready and then ship it.

01:14:06   I feel like with iCloud, they did ship early. They unveiled iCloud as early as they feasibly

01:14:14   could. And some of the stuff, like I said, the key value storage stuff worked great.

01:14:18   I think the backup stuff has worked great, and I think it was worth unveiling. The core

01:14:22   data stuff obviously hasn't. They did the early part, but they haven't done the often

01:14:26   part and I feel like they go together. You suffer if you do the early

01:14:31   without the often. Well let's see how they change and they adapt. So what do

01:14:37   you think Apple is going to do? What do you think the rest of the year for Apple

01:14:41   is going to look like? So I am not a big believer in the iWatch that's number one.

01:14:48   I don't think they should be even bothering with stuff like that. I do

01:14:53   I do believe that they will do something you will wear.

01:14:58   They will make a wearable computer,

01:15:00   whether it's for health reasons or it's a sensor device

01:15:04   which uses your iPhone to do interesting things.

01:15:07   That would be my number one prediction,

01:15:11   that that is something they will release, not the iWatch.

01:15:14   And the number two I think they will do

01:15:18   and they are probably thinking about is

01:15:22   how do they create a more jointed experience inside of iOS, like how to

01:15:33   make all these applications talk to each other and make the

01:15:38   interface more useful and more contextual, sort of like how they started

01:15:43   off with the notifications and with notification type functionality

01:15:49   becoming more center stage.

01:15:52   That is something I hope they're working on, they should be working on, and thinking about.

01:15:58   I think that would be my prediction for next 12 to 18 months.

01:16:03   That is the direction, those two things.

01:16:05   Dave Asprey Yeah, I would love for WWDC, I would love

01:16:10   for the major announcements to be significant improvements to iCloud, and maybe even secondarily,

01:16:17   and better inter-application communication.

01:16:23   And I really do hope that that's what they've been working on, and I really do hope that

01:16:30   the things we saw last year with the little tweet sheets and the Facebook status update

01:16:35   sheets are examples of what they are working on a way to open up to third-party developers,

01:16:45   right?

01:16:46   two these two ones that they're going to bake into the system but that

01:16:51   hopefully I would love it in iOS 7 if something like that could anybody could

01:16:56   have it so like what Marco Arment could have a send to instapaper sheet that any

01:17:01   app if you have instapaper installed when you hit the share button the send

01:17:05   to instapaper thing automatically shows up and then the URL that the app has

01:17:11   has, whatever app, whether it's a Twitter client or an email app or anything, you hit

01:17:18   this share, there's send to Instapaper, and a Marco-designed sheet drops down. You don't

01:17:23   switch to the app. This sheet drops down right in the app and lets you set which folder it's

01:17:29   going to and set a title for it or something like that and send it. That sort of integration,

01:17:38   I think it's almost limitless what the things could be.

01:17:42   And it's definitely an area where they're behind

01:17:45   both Android and Windows Phone 7,

01:17:47   which have things more or less like that.

01:17:50   - Yep, and you know, last point I wanna make, John,

01:17:56   I think people who write about Apple

01:17:59   and I think their job has become much tougher

01:18:04   in the post-Steve Jobs multi-competition landscape,

01:18:09   because not everything Apple is gonna do is gonna be great.

01:18:14   And I think it is gonna be good for us to think about that

01:18:19   and make them constantly think about

01:18:22   what they're doing wrong.

01:18:23   I think it's like a hard thing to do,

01:18:25   but I think the blogging community doesn't talk about

01:18:29   the things they're not doing well as often.

01:18:32   So I wish they would-- I think it's something which-- I think

01:18:39   about a lot.

01:18:39   I think it's important to kind of remind them

01:18:42   that they need to be thinking about the internet.

01:18:44   They need to be thinking about data.

01:18:47   They need to be thinking about how

01:18:48   to build these new connected experiences.

01:18:53   And I wish-- it would be good to have a more deeper dialogue

01:19:00   with the company as well.

01:19:02   I think that's something we should talk about more often.

01:19:05   - Yeah, well, and-- - That's my wish list, right?

01:19:07   Like, I mean, I'm not, it's not like a,

01:19:09   like, I think about the world in that sort of a way,

01:19:14   so I guess I'm thinking in,

01:19:16   with those parameters right now about everything.

01:19:22   - It's, you know, it's funny,

01:19:23   because we just this past week

01:19:25   had the three-year anniversary

01:19:26   of when the original iPad shipped,

01:19:28   And it just seems crazy that it was only three years ago.

01:19:33   Because it's like, I really can't even

01:19:35   imagine what it was like going on an airplane

01:19:37   and not seeing everybody holding an iPad of one shape or another.

01:19:41   And the people who don't have an iPad

01:19:43   have some kind of iPad knockoff.

01:19:47   It seems crazy.

01:19:48   But on the other hand, here we are three years in,

01:19:52   and it still is so hard to send something from one app

01:19:55   to another, other than just copy and paste,

01:19:58   which is, you know, it doesn't even work for some things.

01:20:02   And I feel like there's an under appreciation

01:20:05   for the amount of work people actually want to do.

01:20:08   I mean, I'm saying from Apple's perspective,

01:20:10   the work that people want to do,

01:20:11   but that requires more integration

01:20:15   between different applications.

01:20:17   You know, that work on computers is no longer,

01:20:22   you know, right from day one,

01:20:23   they had the numbers spreadsheet, right?

01:20:25   But how many people really spend,

01:20:26   I mean, I know some people do,

01:20:28   But most people I know don't really sit down and spend hours working on spreadsheets anymore.

01:20:32   That was like 20 years ago.

01:20:34   People don't just open their iPad and work on a spreadsheet.

01:20:37   It's this sort of back and forth interplay between applications and data that keeps coming

01:20:42   in over the internet.

01:20:44   Right.

01:20:45   You know, it is a lot of things going on right now.

01:20:53   I think even as I sit today and I think about what does the world look like going forward,

01:21:05   it's so hard to even project today.

01:21:09   Five years ago, in 2007, when the iPhone came, it was fairly easy to see and actually draw

01:21:18   a linear conclusion as to where the mobile world was gonna go, right?

01:21:24   Like this is where everybody was gonna copy that design and that user experience and now

01:21:31   suddenly it's not as clear.

01:21:34   Like the whole world either seems to be moving forward at a much rapid space or at the end

01:21:40   at the same time it's stuck in the same place.

01:21:43   So it just is like a really hard time to figure out what's going on in technology.

01:21:47   I agree. And it's, you know, the three year anniversary of the iPad makes for a nice halfway

01:21:53   point for the distance from the iPhone, right? So the iPad came three years after the iPhone.

01:22:01   So when the iPad shipped three years ago, the iPhone was still as new then as the iPad

01:22:06   is today. Does that make sense?

01:22:07   Right.

01:22:08   Six years ago was the iPhone. Three years in, we had the iPad. Now we're another three

01:22:12   years later and the iPhone is certainly and and certainly iPhone like phones are

01:22:18   they're just that's just the baseline we just we just assume that now right I do

01:22:25   feel like it were at an interesting juncture as to where we go next well you

01:22:29   and I will keep talking about it and writing about it and it'll be fun who

01:22:34   knows maybe I'll be out soon to see a new new iDevice possibly great well I

01:22:39   I will look forward to seeing you.

01:22:41   - Yeah, save me a seat in the room.

01:22:42   I'll sit next to you.

01:22:43   - Absolutely.

01:22:44   - Om, thanks for being here.

01:22:45   Om Malik, you can always read more at GigaOm.com.

01:22:49   Everybody probably reads it every day,

01:22:50   and he's got the shortest Twitter handle

01:22:52   of anybody I know, O-M.

01:22:55   Thanks, Om.

01:22:56   - Thank you, John, for having me.

01:22:57   It's always wonderful to talk to you.