The Talk Show

32: Denied Permission for an Emergency Landing at Clavius


00:00:00   Well, as it happens, I'm on my way up to the moon.

00:00:03   Are you by any chance going up to your base at Clavius?

00:00:06   Yes, as a matter of fact I am.

00:00:09   Is there any particular reason why you ask?

00:00:12   Well, Dr. Floyd, I hope you don't think I'm too inquisitive,

00:00:16   but perhaps you can clear up the mystery about what's been going on up there.

00:00:19   I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I know what you mean.

00:00:23   Well, it's just for the past two weeks there have been some extremely odd things happening at Clavius.

00:00:29   Really?

00:00:30   Yes, well, for one thing, whenever you phone the base, all you get is a recording which

00:00:34   repeats that the phone lines are temporarily out of order.

00:00:37   Well, I suppose they've been having a bit of trouble with some of the equipment.

00:00:41   Yes, well, at first we thought that was the explanation, but it's been going on for the

00:00:45   past ten days.

00:00:47   You mean you haven't been able to get anyone at the base for ten days?

00:00:49   That's right.

00:00:50   I see.

00:00:51   Another thing.

00:00:52   Two days ago, one of our rocket buses was denied permission for an emergency landing

00:00:57   at Clavius.

00:00:59   How did they manage to do that without any communication?

00:01:01   Well, Clavius' control came on the air just long enough to transmit their refusal.

00:01:06   Well, that does sound very odd.

00:01:08   Yes, I'm afraid there's going to be a bit of a row about it.

00:01:11   Denying the men permission to land was a direct violation of the IAS convention.

00:01:16   Yes.

00:01:17   Well, I hope the crew got back safely.

00:01:19   Fortunately they did.

00:01:20   Well, I'm glad about that.

00:01:22   Dr. Floyd, at the risk of pressing you on a point you seem reticent to discuss, may

00:01:27   May I ask you a straightforward question?

00:01:29   Certainly.

00:01:30   Quite frankly, we have some very reliable intelligence reports that a quite serious

00:01:35   epidemic has broken out at Clavius.

00:01:37   Something apparently of an unknown origin.

00:01:41   Is this in fact what has happened?

00:01:44   I'm sorry, Dr. Smeislov, but I'm really not at liberty to discuss this.

00:01:49   This epidemic could easily spread to our base, Dr. Floyd.

00:01:52   We should be given all the facts.

00:01:54   Dr. Smyslov, I'm not permitted to discuss this.

00:01:58   So I'm here in Chicago,

00:02:02   Kudol Partners World Headquarters,

00:02:04   with my good friend Jim Kudol.

00:02:07   Jim, welcome.

00:02:10   Thank you.

00:02:10   Last night we went to see a screening of 2001,

00:02:15   a space odyssey at the...

00:02:17   Music Box Theater.

00:02:18   Music Box Theater, 70mm print.

00:02:23   A couple years ago there was a new print of this movie that came out and we thought we

00:02:27   were going to go see it and it was a different older sort of scratched up 70mm print.

00:02:33   Yeah, we were going to go, we went to the Wexler Art Center at Ohio State University

00:02:38   because we had heard that they had the new print and as soon as it was sold out, it was

00:02:43   great to see it projected large, but as soon as it started rolling there's a ticking artifact

00:02:48   on the left side channel of the audio in the first section of the film and as soon as we

00:02:53   heard that ticking, we knew that we were watching that same old print. So if you

00:02:57   go to see 2001 in a 70 millimeter print you'll know you've got the right print

00:03:02   when the picture is absolutely gorgeous and there's no crazy audio thing on the

00:03:05   left side. Right, and in addition to the fact that we didn't have any audio errors

00:03:09   last night, it was a digital audio thing. It was not the analog audio on

00:03:16   the side of the film. Optical, yeah. Well we were lucky enough to meet to chat

00:03:20   with the projectionist last night during intermission. How's that? Intermission in a film. So cool.

00:03:25   And he said that originally the 70 millimeter prints were released with an optical audio

00:03:31   track that ran alongside the picture. And that after that, they used a strip of mag,

00:03:40   like magnetic tape that ran along the picture. But that now all that's alongside the picture

00:03:46   his time code and it slaves basically a CD player which has all the digital audio on it.

00:03:52   But even though the audio was perfectly clear it is an old track and I believe that it's mono

00:04:01   and we also noticed that there's very little bottom end. There's very little base in the track

00:04:07   and I think that's probably true of most of the films of that era. We're sort of spoiled now by

00:04:13   Transformers and everything else. These chest-thumping subwoofer

00:04:17   theatre sound experience. Exactly, although it did sound great and it did sound great.

00:04:21   It did sound great. Again, no bottom end, it was no heavy bass, but it

00:04:27   would, in addition to a truly, truly magnificent picture quality, it sounded

00:04:31   great. Yeah, yeah. It was, you know, my father took me to see 2001, I can't

00:04:38   figure out exactly when it was, but it was soon after it came out. That would

00:04:42   to put me about eight years old so I chose how old I am.

00:04:44   But, and I remember being enthralled

00:04:47   and confused by the film.

00:04:50   But this was certainly the best representation

00:04:54   of the film I've ever seen.

00:04:55   And we were sitting right in the second row

00:04:57   and that was the right place to be, I think.

00:05:00   So it's a full house, Stanley can still sell them out.

00:05:02   - Absolutely. - I think the film,

00:05:04   the film has been part of a 70 millimeter festival

00:05:06   that they're running and I think every seat

00:05:08   for every show sold out right away.

00:05:10   - Wow, that's pretty cool.

00:05:12   - So,

00:05:16   I think anybody who ever goes to see this movie,

00:05:20   you come out of it and you do exactly what I always think

00:05:23   I'm not gonna do, which is start talking about what it means.

00:05:26   - Well, we were with my 12-year-old son yesterday,

00:05:28   so we couldn't help you.

00:05:29   His first question is, "What was that?"

00:05:32   - I actually liked, I really thought that Spencer

00:05:36   had a truly fabulous interpretation

00:05:39   of the last shot of the movie, which is that it's Superman

00:05:43   floating over the Earth.

00:05:44   And I know he was kind of half joking,

00:05:46   but I actually think that's, you know,

00:05:49   that to me is the basic gist of the story as I see it,

00:05:52   is that four million years ago, whoever this is

00:05:56   behind the monoliths, used a monolith to turn

00:06:00   our ape-like ancestors into men.

00:06:04   How did we turn from apes to men?

00:06:06   It was with their help and that monolith.

00:06:08   And that now, four million years later,

00:06:11   through the same people's help,

00:06:14   Dave Bowman has become the first whatever's next after us.

00:06:18   Like going from humans to whatever is greater than humans,

00:06:23   Dave Bowman's the first one who's done it.

00:06:26   - Yeah, and I don't think Spencer was the first one

00:06:28   with that theory, but that's the best I can make of it.

00:06:31   You know, the more I learn about the film

00:06:34   and the more I see it, the less I care, sort of,

00:06:37   about what the actual specific meaning of that last reel of the film is.

00:06:42   You know, it's so interesting.

00:06:45   All the details in the middle section and the Jupiter discovery section,

00:06:50   all the details are like, everything takes forever,

00:06:52   and you see every little bit of everything.

00:06:54   And then we make these huge jumps.

00:06:59   Obviously the most famous cut in cinema history between the bone and the spaceship

00:07:03   and the spaceship is a jump and then, you know, we jump down that slit scan, acid-induced

00:07:09   sort of color section. Well, and it really is, right, there's these two fantastic leaps

00:07:15   in the movie. There's the one where you, the jump cut from four million years ago to

00:07:21   forty years in the future. I mean, I still think of it as the future, because even though

00:07:25   it's 11 years after, right?

00:07:28   But, I guess 12 years now, it's 2013.

00:07:31   But then that last reel is another jump like that.

00:07:36   Where, I mean, who knows when or where you are.

00:07:38   But the other thing that really struck me last night,

00:07:42   I mean, again, this is super obvious,

00:07:44   but up until that last reel, up until the slit scan,

00:07:49   I think of it like, I always thought

00:07:51   he was going through hyperspace or something.

00:07:53   That's where he's going to wherever the people who made the monolith are.

00:07:57   Right.

00:07:58   But at that moment, the movie shifts from two hours or so of being extremely, almost

00:08:06   pedantically scientific, like both from the caveman stuff through the space stuff, you

00:08:12   know, this sort of almost extraordinary precision and an attempt to do everything as

00:08:20   realistically as possible to a final reel, which every single second of it, who knows

00:08:29   if any of it is even real.

00:08:33   It's completely poetic.

00:08:35   Is it in Bowman's head?

00:08:38   Is it a wormhole through space?

00:08:44   Spencer's other theory was when the very old man wakes up at the end, he said, "Well, it

00:08:48   was all a dream, which is sort of a conventional Hollywood way to approach it.

00:08:52   If you have a chance to see this print, and we understand that this will be the

00:08:56   print that's circulating, so I would certainly encourage you

00:09:00   if you have a chance to see it, to see it, a little

00:09:04   bit about the technical thing of it. It's the first time I ever

00:09:08   saw the film where things started to feel fake.

00:09:12   And I don't mean that as an insult to the film, obviously it's

00:09:16   special effects and it's from 1968. But the, you mentioned last night and I think

00:09:23   the same thing, the 3D model stuff like of the Discovery still holds up really

00:09:27   well. But some of the scenes are actually 2D photo realistic paintings or

00:09:37   photographs that are moved across another 2D surface and the fidelity of

00:09:42   of the picture last night, put the lie to that a little bit.

00:09:47   - It looked flat.

00:09:48   - Yeah, right, right.

00:09:50   It didn't look bad, it just looked flat.

00:09:55   It's sort of interesting to see it projected.

00:09:59   It's such a different thing than to see even the DVD

00:10:01   on your big screen, flat screen at home or whatever.

00:10:04   - And some of this stuff, honestly, I don't think

00:10:07   that it's just me being an enormous fan of the movie.

00:10:10   Some of the special effects scenes still look as good

00:10:13   as anything you're ever gonna see

00:10:16   because it looks absolutely real.

00:10:18   Like there's some shots where the camera

00:10:20   is sort of stationary in space, outer space,

00:10:23   and the discovery is passing over it.

00:10:26   And it looks, I don't think it can ever be surpassed

00:10:30   because it really looks like what it would look like

00:10:32   if you put a 70 millimeter camera in outer space

00:10:35   and built a real discovery and flew it over the camera.

00:10:38   - Right, right, right.

00:10:39   And every flyby of the camera of every spaceship since 1968

00:10:44   owes its existence to that particular opening scene.

00:10:49   - And a lot of the interiors--

00:10:51   - Opening scene of the discovery of the Jupiter section.

00:10:55   - The interiors really hold up just remarkably well.

00:10:59   Just in terms of does that feel like this could be

00:11:02   a real pod-based station in a starship.

00:11:06   And it just feels absolutely real.

00:11:08   And actually, the scientist's wardrobe is sort of right back in style right now.

00:11:12   The cut of the suits and everything is very contemporary.

00:11:18   I guess we've got to get on them to do Barry Lyndon next, right?

00:11:22   Oh, that would be a great pick.

00:11:23   Because that's another one where I would just love to see it on a big screen.

00:11:27   Yeah, me too.

00:11:28   Of all of the other films, I think that would be the one.

00:11:31   Just talking about "Seen You Projected," that would be the next one I'd want to see

00:11:35   projected, I think.

00:11:36   I was at the Kubrick exhibit in Amsterdam, and that was sort of interesting.

00:11:41   It's now in LA.

00:11:42   I don't know how long it is.

00:11:43   It's the same exhibit.

00:11:44   It's the same exhibit.

00:11:45   They had this big space at the new film museum right on the water there, a really great building.

00:11:51   The space was divided up by the movie.

00:11:53   So there was one section that was Dr. Strangelove, and there was another section that was 2001,

00:11:58   and there was another section that was Paths of Glory.

00:12:01   The really cool thing was they were showing a projection of long sequences from the film

00:12:08   on large screens in each of the sections, but the sections of the exhibit were not separated

00:12:13   from each other.

00:12:14   So while you were watching Alex in Clockwork, you could hear Hal at the other side of the

00:12:21   room and you could hear Merkin Muffley talking to the Russian premier from Strangelove.

00:12:28   It was like your head, the net effect of it was maybe what it might have been to be like

00:12:34   Kubrick, because you had all these ideas floating around in your head at one time.

00:12:37   There's a great app for that exhibit, too.

00:12:40   Have you seen that?

00:12:41   Yeah, yeah.

00:12:42   And it's got photos I've never seen anywhere before in that app.

00:12:45   In fact, photos are in that app that aren't even in the exhibit.

00:12:47   Interesting.

00:12:48   Yeah, so anybody out there is vaguely interested in Kubrick, and if you're not, you've probably

00:12:52   already stopped the podcast.

00:12:54   But you've got to go to the app store.

00:12:56   - Go to the app store and just search for Kubrick,

00:12:58   and I think that's actually just the name of the app,

00:13:00   it's just Kubrick, but yeah, it's like a great ebook,

00:13:04   really, like a coffee table book type thing.

00:13:06   - It's really cool.

00:13:08   - There was another thing, just like a random thing

00:13:10   that stuck out to me last night,

00:13:11   I mentioned this to you last night after the film,

00:13:13   but I'd never thought about it before,

00:13:15   but it really stuck out to me,

00:13:17   was in the caveman sequence, in the prehistoric sequence,

00:13:21   there's a scene where a cheetah is up a bunnet,

00:13:26   on like a little small cliff above the tribe

00:13:31   and pounces and attacks one of the tribe's people.

00:13:36   And I don't know how they shot that

00:13:37   because I realized like it's,

00:13:39   and it wasn't all diced up with cuts, it was like--

00:13:42   - It was one cut, one shot I believe.

00:13:45   - I think it cut when it jumped,

00:13:46   it cut when the cheetah jumped

00:13:48   and then the rest of it is just,

00:13:50   it holds on a shot, like kind of a long shot

00:13:52   of a guy, not really a guy, but one of these,

00:13:57   what do you want to call them, cavemen,

00:14:01   I call them cavemen, whatever.

00:14:02   - Monkeys, whatever you call them.

00:14:03   - Right, fighting a cheetah, and everybody knows

00:14:07   that it was people in suits doing this.

00:14:10   So they had a guy in a suit fighting an actual cheetah.

00:14:14   - Against a front projection glass screen

00:14:17   showing the Sahara Desert.

00:14:19   I noticed that scene too, but not for that,

00:14:22   It didn't occur to me, I guess I'm so immune to Hollywood special effects.

00:14:28   One of the Oscar nominated films is a boy and a tiger in a boat for God's sake.

00:14:33   Maybe it didn't occur to me that, God that cat's actually attacking that guy.

00:14:37   The thing that occurred to me in that scene is that the color correction was off in that

00:14:41   scene relative to the scenes before and after it.

00:14:44   It made me think, I've seen this movie too many times, but it made me think I bet they

00:14:49   only got that once.

00:14:51   They only got the action they wanted once and maybe the lighting wasn't correct, but

00:14:55   the fact was that they needed the action so they had to do what they could with the color

00:15:00   correction to make it sort of fit with the scene that came before and after it.

00:15:04   I agree with that.

00:15:05   There is something off about the lighting.

00:15:07   I love the scene where the leopard turns into the camera and the front projection light

00:15:12   is reflected in his eyes.

00:15:14   For me that's like a really awesome scene, which probably wouldn't happen in nature,

00:15:18   but in a way.

00:15:20   Let's talk about one other thing.

00:15:21   It's a lot of scenes.

00:15:22   It got a good big laugh in the movie.

00:15:23   It always gets a big laugh when you see the movie.

00:15:25   It's the zero gravity toilet instruction scene.

00:15:29   - Right, on the Pan Am shuttle.

00:15:32   - Yeah, to Clavius. - That Heywood Floyd is on.

00:15:34   - Yeah, that he's going, to Clavius?

00:15:35   - No, I think it's on his way to the space station.

00:15:37   - It's on the way to the space station.

00:15:38   And it's like paragraphs and paragraphs of text.

00:15:43   And I believe it's all real text.

00:15:44   It's not like Lorem Ipsum Dolar.

00:15:46   And that comes up and Heywood Floyd's looking at it

00:15:49   and he's like puzzled by it.

00:15:50   And I sort of think that that scene is like maybe the only scene of the film that actually doesn't fit.

00:15:56   That's actually there just as a gag.

00:15:58   Because, as you said, he's been flying around the galaxy for a long time.

00:16:06   He's been on these ships before.

00:16:07   I find it hard to believe he hadn't had to go to the bathroom before.

00:16:10   And secondly, if everyone who ever flew on these ships used the zero gravity toilet,

00:16:17   would they have to have like all of these instructions?

00:16:20   I mean it's clearly a joke for the contemporary audience watching the film.

00:16:26   Right.

00:16:26   Which there's really very little of that. The other thing is that the stewardesses,

00:16:30   I think we can call them a stewardess because they're not really a flight attack.

00:16:33   The stewardesses shoes which have some velcro on the bottom to keep her from,

00:16:38   to allow her to walk in zero gravity, it said grip shoes on the side.

00:16:43   Right.

00:16:43   And for me that, and it looked cool, it was almost like an Adidas looking thing,

00:16:47   But for me that was another thing like a thing for the audience because if everybody wore those shoes

00:16:52   You wouldn't put grip to it doesn't say tennis shoes on the side of my shoes, you know

00:16:57   It doesn't you know, like so it was sort of a way to give out some scientific information

00:17:03   Yeah, it was almost as though they they did like

00:17:05   It was almost the equivalent of putting a graphic on screen with an arrow

00:17:09   You know like a pop-up graphic right that like labels it or explains it or like you do and you know

00:17:15   Like some comic books will explain, you know, like like the old Dick Tracy comics, right?

00:17:20   Would draw like a little arrow to his watch and say two-way wrist radio, right?

00:17:24   It's almost proof of how smart we are about the future, right?

00:17:27   You know and I do kind of miss Pan Am now now after seeing it again, you know

00:17:32   Is there any more Pan Am airline? No, no, and they were gonna be the ones that made it to the future

00:17:36   But they didn't I guess yeah, it's weird. We don't really do that. It was still good, right?

00:17:43   - Right, Hilton's still there. - Hilton's still there.

00:17:44   It was Ma Bell, AT&T, I guess.

00:17:47   I don't know what it was exactly,

00:17:48   but anyhow, interesting on that.

00:17:51   Great time.

00:17:52   - I do, and I, there's so many scenes that I love,

00:17:55   but the scene in Hilton, to me, is one of my favorites.

00:17:59   It's-- - The one we did.

00:18:00   - Right. - Yeah, right.

00:18:01   - The one we did a read-through here for the opening.

00:18:04   And there's something about the way

00:18:07   that the guy who plays Haywood Floyd,

00:18:09   I don't know, I don't remember his name as an actor.

00:18:12   as far as I know he's never been in anything

00:18:13   I've seen since, but he's so deadpan

00:18:16   in terms of, he obviously knows,

00:18:19   but he's not underplaying it, he's not overplaying it,

00:18:22   he's just stone-faced about it.

00:18:24   And he's not tight-lipped about it.

00:18:28   He seems like exactly the sort of guy

00:18:30   who you'd want in the government to trust

00:18:33   with the single greatest secret the government's ever had.

00:18:36   He really does seem like the perfect guy.

00:18:38   - Yeah, and then he does the presentation later

00:18:41   where he doesn't really say anything to anyone.

00:18:43   - Right.

00:18:44   - He's like perfect government scientific bureaucrat.

00:18:47   - Right.

00:18:48   He's still really the only guy who knows

00:18:50   what the hell's going on, even in the presentation, yeah.

00:18:53   - Yeah, right.

00:18:54   Yeah, he's just trying to keep them in line, so to speak.

00:18:58   - Sort of like, it's almost like just a formality,

00:19:03   like just good manners that I'm not gonna not address you,

00:19:07   but I'm not going to tell you anything

00:19:09   when I do address you.

00:19:10   - Right, and you have to keep up the charade of the epidemic.

00:19:13   - Right, but that's a beautiful Kubrickian thing too,

00:19:15   is that he sets up the scene with Smyslov in the Hilton.

00:19:18   And the end of that scene that we just kind of went through

00:19:23   is where he accuses Floyd of hiding the fact

00:19:27   that there's an epidemic on the clavian base.

00:19:29   And then later he makes the presentation

00:19:32   and he talks about what's going on in the base

00:19:34   and at the end of the presentation he says,

00:19:35   "And that's why it's so important

00:19:36   that we keep up the appearance of an epidemic at the base.

00:19:40   So at the moment when we first saw Floyd,

00:19:44   we didn't know what he thought about this idea

00:19:47   of an epidemic and later we find out what a cool cat he is

00:19:50   because he's orchestrated this entire cover story.

00:19:53   It's a good exposition by Kubrick

00:19:55   because we know as little as the people in the scene know.

00:19:59   We are like the Russians in the first scene

00:20:01   and in the second scene of the presentation,

00:20:04   we are like the ignorant other officials

00:20:06   from the other area, so it's nice.

00:20:08   It's like the film we learn as characters

00:20:13   in the film learn, sort of.

00:20:15   Like Heywood's got one over on us, too.

00:20:18   - Right.

00:20:19   And then there's the, you pointed it out,

00:20:22   that on the next shuttle, the smaller one

00:20:24   that goes from the space station to Clavius,

00:20:27   where they're wearing actual astronaut suits.

00:20:30   - When they're having sandwiches.

00:20:31   - And they're eating sandwiches.

00:20:32   And the one guy is like, great presentation.

00:20:34   - Yeah, you really bucked up the truth.

00:20:36   You didn't do anything.

00:20:37   You did nothing of this sort.

00:20:39   - Right, really.

00:20:40   - I mean, unless there were some other speech he gave

00:20:42   that we didn't see.

00:20:44   - I don't, well, maybe, but I don't think so.

00:20:46   I think it was in reference to that presentation,

00:20:48   and I think he was just trying to be complimentary

00:20:50   to clearly, you know--

00:20:51   - Kissing up to him.

00:20:52   - To the highest ranking guy

00:20:53   that he's probably ever gonna encounter in his career.

00:20:56   - But that guy knew what was going on at Clavius.

00:20:58   - Right.

00:20:59   - So he was one of the guys at the meeting, you know, so.

00:21:02   I don't know, "Clevius," good place for a mystery.

00:21:05   - So that, you know, and clearly,

00:21:07   for people who aren't a fan of the movie, the--

00:21:09   - Well, they certainly would have hit pause by now.

00:21:12   - Right.

00:21:13   - On this podcast.

00:21:14   - Well, the complaint, and it has merit, really,

00:21:18   is that the film is tedious.

00:21:20   It's tedious deliberately, though, right?

00:21:23   - It's glacial.

00:21:24   - Right. - Yeah, yeah.

00:21:25   - There's, yeah, there's extended sequences

00:21:28   of people doing truly mundane things,

00:21:31   And the point of it, it's almost like a deliberation

00:21:34   on what the mundane aspects of the future are going to be.

00:21:39   It's like almost like a painstakingly detailed,

00:21:44   we've thought of every single thing

00:21:46   and we're gonna show it to you.

00:21:47   And the pacing of it, it does,

00:21:50   it always puts me in a certain mindset

00:21:52   where it does, it zones me out.

00:21:54   - Yeah, and that, and Dave's, and Bob's breathing too,

00:21:59   like the whole thing has sort of a zen sort of a quantity,

00:22:03   quality to it. Like when he opens,

00:22:06   when he's going to use the explosive bolts to get back into the discovery,

00:22:10   when he opens that hand crank door,

00:22:13   it takes forever. Like he just turns it and turns it and turns it and turns it.

00:22:19   And we're waiting and we're waiting and we're waiting and the tension is

00:22:21   building and building and building. I mean, it's just beautiful.

00:22:24   And the whole film is, I mean,

00:22:25   The whole middle section of that film is the most anti-science fiction, science fiction

00:22:30   film ever made.

00:22:32   In the time it took him to open that door, in most science fiction films, civilizations

00:22:37   will have born, lived, and died in the same time it took Dave to open the door.

00:22:42   New generations of weapons will be developed to counter the weapons that would have been

00:22:46   shown 15 minutes ago.

00:22:49   Exactly.

00:22:51   It is a science fiction movie, but it's...

00:22:53   Our idea of what a science fiction movie is now is a lot different than it was in 1968,

00:22:57   too.

00:22:58   I think there's...

00:22:59   And most of them owe everything to it, I would say.

00:23:03   One of the little oddities about it is that it's a G-rated movie, and surely the only

00:23:09   G-rated movie Stanley Kubrick ever made.

00:23:13   Which I think, A, is a little weird because it just seems to me like a murderous robot

00:23:22   is maybe PG already.

00:23:25   Four people get murdered, including Frank Poole, who I think kind of gets murdered in

00:23:32   one of the most terrifying ways imaginable.

00:23:35   It's maybe even worse than drowning, right?

00:23:38   Just to be in a suit knowing that you've been cut.

00:23:41   know he had a couple seconds there before he died where he knew well I'm

00:23:44   gonna die right I'm gonna float away into truly oblivion yeah and of course

00:23:49   the actual act takes place off-screen right which is so interesting since we

00:23:53   they've spent their time to be spent his time showing us every little detail of

00:23:57   every little thing except for the most crucial moment in that reel of the film

00:24:00   that happens off-frame on a frame and the murder of the three crew members who

00:24:07   who are hibernating is something too, yeah.

00:24:10   If it was a murderous robot, it would have been PG-13,

00:24:15   but it's a murderous mainframe.

00:24:17   That's a little different.

00:24:18   - Right, and I do think that that might be why

00:24:20   that they didn't see it that way,

00:24:22   because HAL's physical instantiation isn't a robot,

00:24:26   isn't a humanoid type C-3PO thing.

00:24:29   - Right. - It's really just

00:24:30   a presence on the ship.

00:24:31   He's a camera, you know, he's a series of red cameras

00:24:34   and a voice, and that's it.

00:24:36   Like if you want to think about it, it's almost like he's the ship.

00:24:40   Right.

00:24:41   Yeah, it's like when we think of being killed by machines, generally we imagine them marching

00:24:45   at us with lasers, you know what I mean?

00:24:50   Not turning off the power to our hibernation cocoons.

00:24:54   And that whole sequence after Hal kills Frank Poole and his body is going out into oblivion.

00:25:04   And what Dave Bowman does then is never explain.

00:25:09   He doesn't say anything,

00:25:10   'cause the only person he would talk to would be Hal.

00:25:13   And he clearly knows, I guess, it seems realistic to me,

00:25:15   it seems, you know, but it also seems like

00:25:18   unlike most Hollywood movies where he never, you know,

00:25:22   does like a shakes his fist at Hal and swears revenge

00:25:25   and screams at him and says,

00:25:27   "Well, I'm gonna go get his body or something like that.

00:25:30   "I'm not gonna let him,

00:25:33   I'm not gonna let him go like that.

00:25:35   I mean, clearly he knew he was dead.

00:25:37   I think the only reason he went to get him

00:25:39   is out of respect for his friend and clearly,

00:25:41   it wasn't like he thought

00:25:42   he had any hope of saving his life.

00:25:44   He just, he went out to retrieve his body

00:25:49   and it's minutes long.

00:25:51   I mean, I wonder how long that scene is.

00:25:54   That's one of those things where I wouldn't be surprised

00:25:55   if somebody told me it was actually 20 minutes long.

00:25:58   I don't even know, it might be 20 minutes

00:26:00   before he gets down the steps,

00:26:02   gets into a... From the time he leaves until the time he blows through the

00:26:07   explosive bolts to get back in that is a long and again glacial

00:26:12   and quiet sort of a sequence. You know like even when he blows the bolts

00:26:17   you don't even hear the explosion. It's sort of like the Ridley Scott line right?

00:26:20   In space no one can hear you scream. Like there's no sound of the explosion.

00:26:24   The only sound comes as as he closes the door and air starts to rush back into the

00:26:28   airlock. Sort of interesting choice there. And that is one of the

00:26:32   when I say it's like super scientific, one of the ways that the film is is when the camera is

00:26:37   exterior in space, there is no sound. Spaceships don't make any whooshing sound. It's just pure

00:26:43   silence. And the sound, some of the sounds in the movie, it was so loud in the theater.

00:26:47   The silence really pops. The silence, it's like, you know, in great visual, in graphic design,

00:26:53   where if you make truly great use of white space, it's striking. But then the only time he ever

00:27:00   interrupts that would be to use the breathing of an astronaut and sort of it

00:27:05   almost like audio audio wise puts you in a first-person perspective yes yes as the

00:27:11   same way of a point-of-view camera that's exact I mean that's exactly it

00:27:14   every time you're the breathing you are Dave like in a way you know what I mean

00:27:17   you are booming so it almost makes my face feel hot like I can feel my own hot

00:27:23   breath in a glass you know and closed helmet right

00:27:28   - So did we waste enough time talking about 2001 yet?

00:27:32   - Well, I could never waste enough time.

00:27:33   - I know.

00:27:33   - Here's my question for you is if Hal killed me

00:27:37   and my body was floating out into the middle of nowhere

00:27:41   between Jupiter and Mars, would you get in a pod

00:27:44   and come out and rescue my body?

00:27:45   - Yes, because I, at that moment,

00:27:48   I did not know that Hal knew.

00:27:52   Remember, Hal doesn't reveal that he had read his lips

00:27:55   until after.

00:27:56   So I, you get the feeling though

00:28:01   that Bowman is suspicious beyond the fact

00:28:04   of just, just from the look on his face.

00:28:07   But yeah, of course I'd come and get you, Jon.

00:28:10   - All right, good to know, Jim.

00:28:11   - But then when I got back and I couldn't get in,

00:28:13   I'd have to let you float away.

00:28:15   - I think Bowman at that point is angry,

00:28:18   'cause I think he knows it's Hal's fault,

00:28:20   but that he's only unsure whether it's Hal is malfunctioning

00:28:26   - Or malevolent. - Or malevolent.

00:28:28   - Yeah, right, right. - Right.

00:28:29   And so I think, though, and I think he's so

00:28:32   in a state of shock, because, you know,

00:28:34   I mean, obviously he was good, he was his friend,

00:28:36   the only guy he's talked to in the last year or something.

00:28:38   I don't know how long he'd been up there, but--

00:28:40   - A long time. - It's an 18-month mission,

00:28:41   and it seems like they're pretty far along in it.

00:28:43   - Well, it's mostly almost there,

00:28:45   because he sees the video transmission from Floyd

00:28:50   when he's disconnecting Hal, and that means--

00:28:53   - That's when he's up there. - And he says,

00:28:55   "We're only going to give you this message now that you're in reach of Jupiter."

00:28:59   - Jupiter, right.

00:29:00   Yeah, so it must be like 18 months.

00:29:01   So in like 18 months, he's the only guy he's known.

00:29:05   He's in a state of shock.

00:29:06   He forgets his helmet.

00:29:09   But whether he completely forgot the helmet or just made the assumption that I don't really

00:29:13   need it because I'm not going out of the pod, I'm just going to use the arms to get Frank

00:29:17   and then Hal will let me back in here, just never even occurred to him that Hal wouldn't

00:29:22   let him back in.

00:29:23   - Yeah, that's the answer, I think.

00:29:25   And then there's, you know, you go into that whole sequence of the slitscreen camera and

00:29:33   everything that goes into there.

00:29:34   Now there's two ways this movie can go, really.

00:29:37   One way is if you stay on the same path, you wind up in the room with the white floors

00:29:42   and Dave Bowman and the changing of time and the space baby.

00:29:47   But if you make a little left-hand turn right there, you run right into Terrence Malick's

00:29:51   Tree of Life.

00:29:52   And then that movie takes over from there.

00:29:54   So that's the primordial ooze from which interesting movies come or something.

00:30:02   Although you can't make Tree of Life into a science fiction movie.

00:30:05   That would be a hell of a double feature.

00:30:07   Yeah, you better drink some coffee.

00:30:11   That would be like six hours.

00:30:14   I could stand it.

00:30:15   I don't know if anybody else could.

00:30:16   I don't think Spencer could.

00:30:17   I don't think my son could.

00:30:19   I don't know what kind of state of mind you'd be in by the end of that, too.

00:30:24   All right, well, that was good.

00:30:25   Let me do the first sponsor read.

00:30:27   I want to thank Squarespace.

00:30:30   Squarespace is back on board this week to sponsor the show.

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00:30:54   You simply start with one of their designs.

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00:30:58   You add your own images and content, anything you want to sell.

00:31:02   You connect your social accounts, your Twitter account, your Facebook account, that sort

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00:31:41   And if you sign up for a year, they even give you a free domain name.

00:31:46   The new thing they have, this is the new thing, is this integrated store.

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00:32:08   easy store management and great options for payment.

00:32:12   I think that they – I think it's Stripe.

00:32:14   Yeah, I think that's their primary.

00:32:15   That's their primary.

00:32:16   Yeah, and everybody knows Stripe is just – it's the best way to do online commerce.

00:32:20   So I mean it really took something that's a huge pain in the ass.

00:32:24   I mean and Jim and I both know that setting up an online store and have made it really,

00:32:29   really easy.

00:32:30   So check them out.

00:32:32   The URL is squarespace.com/thetalkshow.

00:32:37   dot com slash the talk show that way they'll know you're coming here from the show but

00:32:42   check them out especially if you've got something you've been thinking about setting up an online

00:32:46   store that's new so check out what they have to offer before you make a mistake and go

00:32:50   with someone else. Yeah I mean just brand new I think it's brand new and it's a whole

00:32:54   suite of e-commerce features that are loaded into your account so it looks cool I've been

00:33:00   playing around with it a little bit so it looks cool. They're a sponsor on the deck

00:33:03   They are. They're a long time sponsor of the deck. Like other smart companies. Very smart

00:33:10   companies. Let's talk about the deck. So when, how long have we been doing this?

00:33:15   The deck's been going since about 2007, 2008, was kind of in its infancy and then really

00:33:24   started getting going in 2009. So it kind of, it ran as a small text ad service as a

00:33:32   sort of a proof of concept and originally just ran on Kudol.com and then after that

00:33:36   it got we sort of got serious about it so I think it was 2009 was when we we might have run a little

00:33:42   at the end of 2008 but 2009 would have been the first year of the deck I guess and here we are in

00:33:47   13 so are you sure you don't have the years wrong on that I thought it was sooner I mean or older

00:33:52   I thought it was no I don't think it's much older than that we happen to be sitting in my office so

00:33:57   so I can just look on my computer and see.

00:33:59   - What I remember is that it first launched

00:34:01   with you and 37signals and Zeldin.

00:34:05   - That is correct.

00:34:06   You are correct.

00:34:09   - And you guys, the Jewelboxing, I think.

00:34:13   - Yes, 2006 and 2007, 2008 and 2009.

00:34:18   - That makes sense 'cause it really sort of coincides

00:34:20   with when I took Darren Fireball full time.

00:34:22   And prior to that--

00:34:24   - Man, it's a long time ago now.

00:34:26   - Feels like it.

00:34:27   But prior to that, I'd been selling my own totally text ads.

00:34:31   Same spot where the deck ads are on Daring Fireball.

00:34:34   - Right, I remember that, yeah.

00:34:35   - It was just text.

00:34:36   And similar model where it was sort of like

00:34:38   my RSS sponsorship still are,

00:34:39   where it's one spot a week.

00:34:41   One sponsor a week.

00:34:43   And you were buying those spots occasionally

00:34:47   for Jewel Boxing.

00:34:49   - Right.

00:34:50   - And I don't think Field Notes existed then.

00:34:51   - No, it was just starting 2007.

00:34:53   - I think it was Jewel Boxing.

00:34:55   'cause back then people actually needed

00:34:56   jewel boxes for discs.

00:34:58   I mean, that's how old we are now.

00:34:59   - Despite everything, some people still do.

00:35:03   Business, jewel boxes still selling.

00:35:04   Not very many compared to the old days.

00:35:06   - And I was gonna go,

00:35:10   when I wanted to take Daring Farboul full-time,

00:35:12   I needed somebody else to sell the ads.

00:35:14   I needed bigger and better ads.

00:35:16   I needed some more money from it.

00:35:18   And so I just emailed you to say,

00:35:19   "Hey, thanks for all of the jewel boxing things

00:35:22   "you've sponsored here,

00:35:23   "but I'm going to start looking for something else for ads."

00:35:28   And you were like, "Hold that thought, John.

00:35:30   "Give me a week."

00:35:32   And then the next week you were like,

00:35:34   "All right, you want to be in the deck."

00:35:35   - Right, well we had done,

00:35:37   I was always convinced it would work,

00:35:39   and I believe it was at South By in 2006

00:35:43   where it was easy to talk Jason Fried into it

00:35:45   because we shared an office.

00:35:47   So I'm like, "Jason, I'm going to do this ad thing.

00:35:48   "Come and do it with me."

00:35:49   And then I talked Jeffrey Zeldman into it

00:35:53   a list apart. And then it ran with us three as the only place where the ads appeared for

00:35:57   a little bit, for a while. I believe you were next or maybe Andy. You were Andy. I don't

00:36:03   know who was next.

00:36:04   It was really close between me and Andy Baio's waxy.org.

00:36:07   And then it started. Then it grew fairly quickly. Now it's growing slowly. But that's how we

00:36:12   want it to be. At that point, it was relatively easy to... There were different concerns about

00:36:21   getting new affiliates at that point.

00:36:23   Now we're looking for exactly the right affiliate and one that the ads work well for the audience

00:36:28   and that is designed properly, whatever.

00:36:30   But back then, nobody was carrying ads.

00:36:34   And when you put the ads on your site or Jason Kotke did or we did, there was some concern

00:36:42   that our readers would see that as a betrayal, which seems kind of funny now, doesn't it?

00:36:47   Like to be so worried about that.

00:36:49   Yeah.

00:36:50   And that is definitely true.

00:36:51   were in those, you know, I've been doing Daring Fireball

00:36:54   for 10 years, so we can talk about it

00:36:56   as a little bit over 10 years now, but as a decade.

00:36:58   And in that first half, the 2002, 2003, 2004 years,

00:37:03   nobody had ads on their weblogs.

00:37:06   Nobody had any kind of ads.

00:37:08   And then Google had the AdSense thing,

00:37:13   but that was still just text, and it was all pay-per-click.

00:37:16   And that was, I mean, it really was controversial

00:37:19   and people would just add like a single Google text thing.

00:37:22   It was like a, I don't know, a complete aversion

00:37:24   to advertising at all in this.

00:37:26   - Yeah.

00:37:27   We were more altruistic back in our young days, I guess.

00:37:30   - But at the same time, there were,

00:37:33   I've always been, other websites, the CNETs,

00:37:35   the New York Times is the ones that were not personal

00:37:39   but somehow, I don't know what you want to call them,

00:37:42   institutionalized news sites had the worst ads.

00:37:47   I mean, ads that are worse than the ones you even see today.

00:37:49   I mean, I think like about 10, eight, nine years ago,

00:37:53   advertising online was absolutely at like the bottom.

00:37:57   - Right.

00:37:58   - Punch the Monkey, you remember that?

00:38:00   They would have these ads that--

00:38:02   - There's plenty of bad shit out there now too though.

00:38:04   - Yeah, maybe I just don't see it

00:38:05   'cause I have flash turned off on my computer.

00:38:07   I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say that.

00:38:09   - Would you think, should I, I mean,

00:38:10   the idea of the deck was, just to go over the basics

00:38:13   if you know this, I'm sorry to repeat,

00:38:14   but the idea of the deck was we thought

00:38:16   there was probably a better way to do display advertising that would provide benefits for

00:38:22   all three people in the advertising equation.

00:38:24   By the three people in the equation, I mean the publisher, the advertiser, and the reader.

00:38:30   If we felt like when we made the deck, if we could come up with a concept for delivering

00:38:34   advertiser that would be beneficial to all three of those people, then it would work.

00:38:38   Up until that point, it was for the advertiser, it was for the publisher, it was for the publisher,

00:38:45   It was for the reader, whatever.

00:38:47   Our concept was if we put together a confederation of like-minded sites that we displayed a single

00:38:57   ad from an advertiser that was truly relevant to the readership that everybody could benefit.

00:39:05   We've never said that if an ad is in the deck, we endorse its business, but it's sort of

00:39:10   an implied endorsement since we turn down ads all the time.

00:39:14   Since we're fairly low-fi and low-tech, and we're serving up, I mean the deck is not any

00:39:20   whiz-bang programming thing, and we're serving up these ads, we have very low overhead on

00:39:25   the network, and so we deliver a lot of impressions for a relatively good cost.

00:39:31   So lots of people want to buy on the deck, but we don't want the ads from lots of people.

00:39:35   We want ads from people who have products and services that appeal to our audience in

00:39:39   a real way, not just in a sort of, you know.

00:39:43   I'm unconvinced that an algorithm can ever really choose relevance for advertising to

00:39:50   a marketplace.

00:39:51   I mean, maybe someday I can.

00:39:52   The other thing that's not really of direct concern to people who read sites that are

00:39:57   on the deck, people who read Daring Fireball or who read Kaki, they don't need to understand

00:40:02   this and it doesn't matter.

00:40:05   But the fact is the deck has never paid by the page view ever.

00:40:08   In fact, that was part of the concept of this.

00:40:12   It's better for everybody if we do it this way, where advertisers just paid the deck

00:40:17   a set fee and they run for the month.

00:40:23   It's not that we don't give them traffic numbers and we tell them collectively we tend to do

00:40:29   this many page views a month or whatever, but if we happen to do more, we do a little

00:40:33   less in a month, it doesn't affect it.

00:40:38   That's to me the biggest thing.

00:40:39   To me, that's even bigger than the unobtrusiveness of the actual physical format of the ad on

00:40:43   the page is that it takes away any sort of impetus to trump up your page views.

00:40:48   There is no reason.

00:40:49   And so you don't see, there's nobody I know of on the deck who takes long articles and

00:40:53   breaks them into six pages, which is truly just, it's just a scam.

00:40:57   I mean, and I don't even use that word lightly.

00:41:00   It's a scam to get your page views up.

00:41:03   And that works against nobody.

00:41:06   So the pay-per-view model that most of the rest of online advertising uses is bad for

00:41:11   everybody because it's bad for the advertiser because they're getting these numbers that

00:41:17   don't correlate to people.

00:41:18   They correlate to people clicking on web pages, right?

00:41:21   So when you go through and the worst of it now, the way that that's sort of bottomed

00:41:25   out are the slideshows, right?

00:41:28   Here's 20 ways that Apple could screw up the iWatch.

00:41:34   And then you've got to click 20 times and it counts as 20 pages.

00:41:37   But that's no good for the advertiser.

00:41:39   Right.

00:41:40   Because each one of those advertisers, let's say there's four advertisers in the slide

00:41:43   view, they're all being charged the full price of a page view when it goes without saying

00:41:48   that if I'm clicking through to 20 pictures and not seeing 20 pictures on one page, what's

00:41:51   a more valuable impression?

00:41:55   If I'm involved in an article, I'm reading it at Fireball or I'm reading a post from

00:42:00   from TNet, Swiss Miss, or a long thread on MetaFilter,

00:42:04   I'm involved in the ad is there.

00:42:06   If I have to click through and see four ads,

00:42:09   sure, we'll get four more impressions,

00:42:11   but are those four impressions equal

00:42:13   to the single impression?

00:42:14   No, of course not.

00:42:15   - Right.

00:42:15   It's even worse for the reader.

00:42:17   I mean, nobody ever in the history of the world has said,

00:42:19   "You know what I like to do is I like to click 20 times

00:42:21   "to see all 20 ideas you have about the--"

00:42:24   - All the Kate Upton pictures I can handle, right?

00:42:26   Whatever it is, yeah.

00:42:28   And it's no good for the sites themselves,

00:42:30   because then they're busy themselves

00:42:32   with trumped up SEO headlines.

00:42:36   Who feels good about taking a nice long article

00:42:39   that's really a good read and chopping it up into bits,

00:42:42   where you know that each one of those times

00:42:44   where you make asking the reader to click the thing,

00:42:46   you know that half of them are gonna just drop out.

00:42:48   - And some are gonna drop away, yeah.

00:42:49   - Right, it's almost heartbreaking to know

00:42:51   that if you've written something that really is good,

00:42:53   like a real nice 2,000 word piece,

00:42:55   It's almost heartbreaking to think that two thirds of the readers only go to the first

00:43:00   seven hundred words because they just closed the window.

00:43:03   So it doesn't work for anybody.

00:43:04   And yet it's like entrenched.

00:43:06   Right.

00:43:07   And it's not just that.

00:43:08   It's the idea of displaying five ads on a page and counting them all as an you don't

00:43:15   count each of those as somehow for some reason you don't count each of those as a fifth of

00:43:19   an impression.

00:43:20   Right.

00:43:21   You count them all as a full impression.

00:43:22   So I don't know, maybe we're over-delivering, but the dirty little secret of the deck is

00:43:26   for the right advertiser, it works very well.

00:43:28   Most of our advertisers renew.

00:43:30   Advertisers that have the service or a product that fits with the mindset of the affiliates

00:43:34   that are in the deck do very well.

00:43:36   So we don't have to change all the advertising on the web.

00:43:39   We just have to keep going.

00:43:41   The equivalent, and it's hard to equate the ads in any one medium to another.

00:43:46   How is a TV commercial like a magazine ad?

00:43:50   It's hard to draw the comparison.

00:43:52   But to me, the way that there's five ads on a page at the Washington Post or something

00:43:58   like that, and they sell them all as separate page views, to me it's like selling a full-page

00:44:01   ad in the newspaper or magazine, but putting five ads on the page.

00:44:06   Right.

00:44:07   That's the point I was trying to make.

00:44:08   That's a good way to put it.

00:44:09   But you know what it is?

00:44:10   I often think that buying a slot on the deck, which buys you one slot on the deck, buys

00:44:17   you 3% of all the impressions across all the sites and services in the network for a calendar

00:44:25   month and that works out to somewhere between 2 and 3 million impressions.

00:44:29   But buying that, currently it does, but buying that is most akin to buying a full page in

00:44:35   the New Yorker in a magazine.

00:44:36   It's more like a magazine ad because you're buying a monthly thing.

00:44:41   Your ad is by itself.

00:44:44   It is adjacent to content but it is not adjacent to other ads.

00:44:48   It's a very difficult thing to quantify the results that you get for it but if you

00:44:54   buy the ad in the New Yorker and your sales go up, you probably renew the ad and you can

00:44:59   track who saw it in the New Yorker.

00:45:00   Well, it's the same thing with the deck.

00:45:02   So I think the deck, if it's like anything in old media, it's more like a full page

00:45:08   magazine ad in a magazine than it is like a TV commercial or like a traditional banner

00:45:13   ad. I just wish the deck could just take over all the pages on the affiliates. The deck

00:45:19   ad could get really big and blot out all the content. I think the readers and the advertisers

00:45:23   would appreciate that.

00:45:24   Yeah, or if you could use a little JavaScript to make the ad march over the page and you

00:45:29   have to shoot it before it and it'll go back to the spot that it was in.

00:45:34   And then it puts up a dialogue that says,

00:45:36   do you really want to leave this ad?

00:45:38   I love those.

00:45:39   But it's like, yes, you're trying to leave this page.

00:45:40   Now you don't know what to click

00:45:41   'cause you feel like you're in the spammer's embrace already

00:45:44   like, and so if you click, no, I don't want to leave,

00:45:46   you're saying, yes, I appreciate your takeover ad.

00:45:49   But if you say, I want to leave,

00:45:50   you think maybe that they're smart enough

00:45:52   to make that the default that sends you

00:45:54   to the Florida property page or whatever,

00:45:56   whoever the advertiser is or something more nefarious.

00:45:59   - Have you noticed that Netflix still does pop under ads?

00:46:04   I don't see them. I don't know why. Maybe it's because Safari's good at getting rid of them. I don't know.

00:46:08   It's like a cat and mouse game, I think, between the browsers and the rotten thieves who are trying to circumvent the anti-popup thing.

00:46:16   But every once in a while--and I still see them from Netflix. And every time I see one--

00:46:21   I've been a happy Netflix customer for years, and I still am. But every time I see a pop-under from Netflix,

00:46:26   it puts the idea in my head that maybe I should unsubscribe from Netflix just because they're using some of the money to do pop-under ads.

00:46:32   which are the worst.

00:46:33   - Right, so it's not working.

00:46:36   The advertisers are not working.

00:46:37   In fact, it's counterproductive on you.

00:46:39   I don't know who's, I don't see them.

00:46:41   I don't know, maybe I must have some settings

00:46:42   set up or something.

00:46:43   - I don't see many.

00:46:44   I do have to admit that I use Safari.

00:46:46   I have to admit they're pretty good at blocking.

00:46:49   - Right, so if you are like Squarespace

00:46:52   and you have a product or service that could benefit

00:46:55   by being in front of millions of creative, intelligent,

00:46:59   curious, and good looking people, you should go to the deck

00:47:02   and give us a holler.

00:47:03   Let me ask you about another subject.

00:47:05   - All right.

00:47:05   - Tell me about Webstock.

00:47:07   You and I were both in New Zealand,

00:47:08   so tell me about that.

00:47:09   - We were there a week ago, as we're recording today,

00:47:12   Friday, February 22nd, a week ago we were together,

00:47:15   except instead of being in Chicago,

00:47:16   we were in Wellington, New Zealand.

00:47:18   - Just about this time you were doing your presentation.

00:47:21   - I think that's probably about right.

00:47:22   - A week ago.

00:47:23   - Although--

00:47:24   - Well, the time difference was--

00:47:25   - Right, which is mind-blowing, right?

00:47:26   And there's this whole thing where

00:47:28   the international date line, you cross,

00:47:30   So they're in tomorrow already.

00:47:33   - Right.

00:47:34   Well, it's not good.

00:47:35   That's sort of like the end of 2001,

00:47:39   the end of the day.

00:47:39   You just can't really understand it.

00:47:40   - You know what?

00:47:41   I should have had though that our friend,

00:47:42   our mutual great friend, Michael Lop,

00:47:44   had a birthday and he...

00:47:47   - He left California on the 9th on the airplane

00:47:51   from San Francisco.

00:47:51   I was on the plane with him.

00:47:52   We arrived in Wellington, New Zealand on the 11th.

00:47:56   Michael's birthday's the 10th,

00:47:57   so he got gypped out of a birthday.

00:47:58   - Right, he had no birthday.

00:47:59   Or maybe it's a positive, because maybe it doesn't have to count.

00:48:01   - Right, now maybe, yeah, does it legally count

00:48:04   as being a year older than when you weren't around

00:48:06   on your birthday?

00:48:07   - I don't know.

00:48:08   Talk about, it's a great conference.

00:48:10   What did you think of it?

00:48:11   - I really, I went back, I was there two years ago,

00:48:15   and it was such a long flight, and as soon as I came back,

00:48:17   I thought, well, that was great, but never again,

00:48:19   because the flight was too long.

00:48:20   And then I think it's like the way that, I don't know,

00:48:23   they say with, you know, like childbearing,

00:48:25   where it hurts, and then women say,

00:48:27   well, never gonna do it again.

00:48:28   But then you're engineered to forget how painful it was.

00:48:31   It's like, the flight's not that bad.

00:48:34   But I remember it was such a great conference two years ago,

00:48:37   and so I jumped at the chance to go back.

00:48:39   And I thought the same thing, that it was, man,

00:48:41   I would have loved to have been here even if I wasn't speaking,

00:48:44   just to see these talks.

00:48:45   Yeah.

00:48:46   It's the best conference I've ever-- I've even put on conferences,

00:48:49   and I never did that good.

00:48:50   I mean, it's the best conference I've ever been to.

00:48:52   Maybe only rivaled by 2007, 2008, South By,

00:48:57   before it turned into the monster that took over the world.

00:49:00   The thing, it's a single track with a small exception.

00:49:04   It's a single track concept.

00:49:05   So there's about 850 people there,

00:49:07   and everybody sees all the same talks.

00:49:08   In the middle of the day, half the people who are more

00:49:11   developers go one way, and half the people who are more

00:49:13   designers go the other way.

00:49:14   But by and large, it's a single track conference.

00:49:16   And I have never been to a conference

00:49:19   where more of the speakers sat and rooted

00:49:21   for the other speakers.

00:49:22   I mean, for me, that really said what

00:49:24   interesting and well-programmed conference it was is that I wanted to

00:49:30   see all the other speakers and not just because I knew some of them but but

00:49:33   because and many of them I didn't know at all or only know now and that was

00:49:37   sort of interesting and it's in a cool place Wellington's a cool place it's a

00:49:41   very cool place and it's nice it is a really nice tree and I was every speaker

00:49:46   from North America well or your yeah but I think we're all from the northern

00:49:52   hemisphere. I don't think they had any, what do you call them, antipodes?

00:49:55   Yeah, I don't know. It depends on where you count Craig Modis from being from.

00:50:00   Yeah.

00:50:00   If he's from San Francisco, he's one thing, but he's also from Tokyo.

00:50:04   I don't know. Yeah. But it's really nice to go from mid-February northern hemisphere to

00:50:12   mid-February southern hemisphere. I guess, what is that? That's the equivalent of August?

00:50:17   Yeah. It's like summer, mid-summer.

00:50:18   - Yeah, and it's not real hot.

00:50:22   It was, I don't know, 70 every day.

00:50:25   It was like 70 and sunny every day.

00:50:27   - Which apparently is not the case in Wellington

00:50:29   most of the time.

00:50:30   It's very windy and it rains quite a bit,

00:50:32   but we didn't see any of that.

00:50:33   - Yeah, we had more rain too.

00:50:34   - It could be that sort of thing where they tell everybody

00:50:35   it's windy and rainy all the time to keep people away.

00:50:38   Like they don't want to share their space

00:50:39   with everybody else.

00:50:40   It might be that.

00:50:41   - I think the single-track nature of Webstock,

00:50:46   I mean, and there's certainly other single-track conferences,

00:50:48   But a lot of the other single-track conferences

00:50:50   that I go to or have been to are significantly smaller.

00:50:54   - Yeah.

00:50:55   - The new one, Singleton, which has gone on two years

00:50:59   in a row in October in Montreal is about 100,

00:51:02   I think the two years have been 100 and 125 people or so.

00:51:06   And C4 here in Chicago before that,

00:51:10   it was like a 2006 to '10 thing.

00:51:11   - Are those both nerdier?

00:51:13   - Yeah, those are more specifically focused

00:51:17   on Apple developers.

00:51:18   Used to be Mac developers, but now clearly Mac and iOS,

00:51:22   Coke developers, if you will.

00:51:23   - I mean, there was some nerdiness of WebStack,

00:51:27   but it was more of a general developer-designer,

00:51:31   broadened your mind a little bit.

00:51:33   Like, for example, Craig talked about what he called,

00:51:36   what does he call the publishing, the subcompact publishing,

00:51:40   talking about Marco a little bit, and the magazine,

00:51:42   but also sort of general trends.

00:51:45   It was more like that.

00:51:47   It was more like big idea and then let's break it down

00:51:50   as opposed to this is how you code a shopping cart

00:51:53   and rails or whatever.

00:51:55   - Right, and Craig, his Craig Mod's talk

00:51:58   is probably a perfect example of that

00:51:59   where I feel like they, I mean,

00:52:01   the name of the conference, Webstock, implies its roots,

00:52:04   which was people making websites.

00:52:06   You know, back, I think this was the seventh year

00:52:07   that they ran the conference, seventh grade.

00:52:09   And I think originally it was more specific

00:52:12   about designing and building websites

00:52:14   and now they've gotten away from that.

00:52:16   I mean, that's certainly part of it.

00:52:18   But I think Craig's talk exemplified

00:52:19   why they're getting away from that,

00:52:21   because there's not that much of a difference.

00:52:22   And if you're gonna do an online publication,

00:52:25   you're gonna need web stuff and app stuff.

00:52:30   - Right. - You know, I did a show

00:52:31   of hands in my talk, 'cause I was curious,

00:52:32   'cause I remember two years ago I did the same thing.

00:52:35   You know, what are the people in the audience working on?

00:52:37   And it was overwhelmingly websites, web stuff.

00:52:39   And I asked this year how many people were working on apps.

00:52:42   And I'd say easily over half the hands went up.

00:52:45   And the most hands went up were the ones when you said how many are working on both.

00:52:48   Right.

00:52:48   You said you're working on websites and mobile apps and like the whole crowd.

00:52:53   Yeah.

00:52:54   Everything went up and that's, you know, I even put my hand up and I'm not working on any of that.

00:52:57   I just got caught up in the emotion of the whole thing.

00:53:00   And I think that, but I think that that, I think it speaks to the strength of the programming of the conference that Dave sort of adjusted instead of trying to replay what Webstock was in 2007.

00:53:12   it's they've really sort of got their finger on the pulse of what are these people working on today.

00:53:17   Or even if it's not what they're working on, it's what issues, what larger issues in design and

00:53:26   development can we discuss that will benefit your work. And the other thing they do is they have the

00:53:32   first two days of the conference are workshops. So you can go to a half-day workshop with Cragmod,

00:53:37   for example, about subcompact publishing.

00:53:40   And I think they actually, with their iPhones, published a book to Amazon

00:53:45   in their half-day conference of photography.

00:53:47   So, I mean, there was, I think the more practical sort of things like

00:53:52   Karen McGrane's talks, and they wound up in the workshops where people could

00:53:57   really get their hands on the stuff.

00:53:59   And the more conceptual stuff wound up in the main presentations, I think.

00:54:05   But I would encourage anybody who is interested in going to New Zealand to go to the next

00:54:12   Web Stock.

00:54:13   I hope they're all sold out.

00:54:16   It's one of those things where I guess no matter how effusive our praise is of the conference,

00:54:22   anybody who's listening from North America, even on the West Coast where you're already

00:54:26   closer is still going to roll their eyes and think, "Well, I'm not going all the way to

00:54:30   New Zealand for a conference."

00:54:32   But if you've ever thought about going to New Zealand or maybe some kind of combined

00:54:36   two-week trip where you'd go to Australia too or something like that, and you could

00:54:43   work it out schedule-wise to do it with web stock in the middle, boy, that would be worth

00:54:47   it.

00:54:48   I mean, it really is the best.

00:54:49   It's the best conference I know of that's going on right now.

00:54:51   Yeah, yeah.

00:54:52   And we'll see because it's in this beautiful hall.

00:54:55   The main presentations are what's called the Wellington Town Hall, which was from 1906

00:54:58   or something.

00:55:00   And it's this big, beautiful old building.

00:55:02   The Beatles played there, the Talking Heads played there, and all this other stuff happened

00:55:06   there.

00:55:07   It's quite an imposing stage for a speaker.

00:55:09   But with the big earthquake in Christchurch a year ago, two years ago, they have made

00:55:18   much stronger regulations about how buildings have to be supported.

00:55:22   So the town hall is going to be closed for two years while they reinforce it.

00:55:26   So I don't know what's going to happen with Webstock.

00:55:29   For me, it's hard to imagine that happening without that beautiful building, but I suppose

00:55:32   it could happen anywhere.

00:55:33   I'll have to see what happens.

00:55:35   My story on the earthquake was that it happened, and again, I certainly didn't suffer for it.

00:55:41   You caused it.

00:55:42   Right.

00:55:43   But it happened two or three hours after our plane took off from Auckland, the 12-hour flight

00:55:49   from Auckland to SFO.

00:55:51   So we were in Auckland and there was no earthquake.

00:55:54   we got on an airplane two or three hours later

00:55:55   is when this truly horrifying earthquake,

00:55:58   I mean, and again, I don't think it's hyperbole,

00:56:02   devastated the city of Christchurch.

00:56:03   And it was major, major world news.

00:56:07   And so, like, mine and Amy's family saw this thing,

00:56:11   major earthquake in New Zealand,

00:56:13   and they didn't know what city,

00:56:14   all they knew was we said we're going to New Zealand

00:56:16   for a conference, and they, you know,

00:56:17   blah, blah, blah, Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch.

00:56:19   They didn't know.

00:56:20   For all I knew, we were in Christchurch.

00:56:22   And so they all tried calling us,

00:56:24   and of course we couldn't get a call

00:56:25   because we were only two or three,

00:56:27   we had nine hours to go before we land in SFO.

00:56:30   So when we landed in SFO, our phones,

00:56:32   and we turned our phones on, it was like,

00:56:34   voicemail, voicemail, voicemail, voicemail.

00:56:36   Are you all right, are you all right, are you all right?

00:56:38   And my first thought was, it's the way you always,

00:56:41   when you get bad news and you just instantly blank

00:56:43   and go into denial almost, and I was like,

00:56:46   there was no earthquake in New Zealand.

00:56:48   'Cause I was just there and there was no earthquake.

00:56:51   It doesn't occur to you that something like that

00:56:52   happen when you're flying over the Pacific.

00:56:54   Right, especially when the other thing about that is remember when you fly from

00:56:58   Auckland to San Francisco you pretty much arrive

00:57:01   at the same time you left because of the international dateline so actually

00:57:04   there's no time you know right if you leave there at three in the afternoon

00:57:07   you get to San Francisco at about three in the afternoon it's almost like

00:57:10   it's a free 24 hours. So of course it didn't happen.

00:57:14   Yeah so if if if Lop's birthday had been a week later

00:57:17   you would have had two birthdays, right?

00:57:20   - You could have had two, oh yes,

00:57:23   you could have had your birthday

00:57:24   and then had your birthday again.

00:57:25   - Right, except you would have spent

00:57:26   the whole time on an airplane.

00:57:27   - Yeah, which is not anybody's idea

00:57:29   of a great birthday, I don't think.

00:57:30   - All right, let me do the second sponsor.

00:57:31   - Okay.

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00:57:34   I'd say this not because of the sponsor,

00:57:37   but because I'm really impressed by what they've built.

00:57:39   It's Everpix, E-V-E-R-P-I-X.

00:57:43   Everpix is a smart photo platform

00:57:46   that helps you make sense of your growing

00:57:47   photo collection. They have no storage limit, so you have all your photos anywhere, everywhere,

00:57:54   organized automatically in the cloud. Really, the bottom line, long story short, is that

00:57:59   they're aiming to replace something like iPhoto or Lightroom as your canonical file store.

00:58:07   Four photos. Four photos. And the problem that they're trying to solve is that they

00:58:13   They think and I believe that the modern photographer is simply casual photographer is overwhelmed

00:58:21   by the number of photos that they take.

00:58:23   You take hundreds a month, thousands in a year and you end up, we've all had digital

00:58:28   cameras now for probably like 10 years.

00:58:30   We have libraries of 10 or more thousand files and nobody organizes them and let's not pretend

00:58:38   that you're going to when you get back from your vacation and that you're going to take

00:58:40   those 300 photos and put tags on all of them and name them all.

00:58:44   So they have done all this algorithmically.

00:58:47   It's really, really smart stuff from a really smart team.

00:58:50   And they have a great iPhone app and iPad app for navigating these libraries.

00:58:55   On the Mac, you can still use something like iPhoto or Lightroom to suck the photos off

00:59:01   your card and to make color corrections and delete the ones that are no good and eyes

00:59:04   are closed.

00:59:06   But then instead of organizing them into albums or anything like that, just go through and

00:59:10   iPhoto you tell Everpix's Mac client, it's sort of like Dropbox, it's just a simple little

00:59:17   faceless thing that runs in the background, you get to pick which known file locations,

00:59:22   whether you just pick a folder or you pick your iPhoto library, it uploads them to your

00:59:26   account in the cloud. And everything else happens after that. The app is really, really

00:59:32   impressive. By default, it just groups everything by date into events. It's really, really smart

00:59:37   about detecting the interesting parts of a photo.

00:59:40   So when it puts them together in a collage on screen

00:59:42   for you to pick from and scroll through,

00:59:45   it shows you just great little thumbnails

00:59:47   and it's very fast, very beautiful.

00:59:51   You can try it for free.

00:59:54   The apps are all free, the software's free,

00:59:56   and you can do a 30-day free trial

00:59:58   just to see how it works.

01:00:00   If you like it, you pay.

01:00:02   I think it's $40 a month, or $40 a year, I'm sorry,

01:00:06   or $5 a month, very reasonable, unlimited storage.

01:00:11   And again, I was doubtful at the beginning.

01:00:16   And I wasn't quite sure what it was.

01:00:17   What it's not, it's not a replacement for Flickr,

01:00:19   it's not Instagram, it's not photo sharing.

01:00:22   It's your personal library, backed in the cloud,

01:00:25   available on all of your devices all the time.

01:00:28   I'm using it, I really couldn't be happier with it.

01:00:31   I'm really impressed.

01:00:32   I just, just before we recorded the show,

01:00:34   I was showing Jim I was getting all maudlin and showing baby pictures of Jonas when he was a

01:00:39   Year old the pictures. I haven't seen in forever and it was it was just great

01:00:44   So ever picks what you want to do is go to ever picks dot-com

01:00:49   Eevee er pix calm and check it out. My thanks to them for sponsoring the show. I will check it out, too

01:00:57   Because I had said the other day that I hope that there's actually there is reincarnation

01:01:02   Because then I will be able to organize my digital photos

01:01:04   Because otherwise it's never gonna happen. Yeah, I think it's a great premise

01:01:09   I really do the premise is you're never going to organize them just give them to us and we'll organize them for you

01:01:14   Right, right that long story short. That's the gist of the app

01:01:16   And it's it's I think that they've got it

01:01:19   Do people even delete you still delete photos and say that's not a good like I think I know it's just there's so much

01:01:24   It's like I do that when I shoot with my real camera

01:01:28   I do because I shoot so many pictures.

01:01:30   But I used to do like a two pass thing

01:01:33   where the first pass is go through,

01:01:35   like with Webstock, I took, I don't know,

01:01:36   300 pictures down there.

01:01:38   First pass is just go through

01:01:40   and pick out anything that's just awful,

01:01:43   you know, out of focus or the lights way off

01:01:46   or somebody's eyes are closed.

01:01:48   And then if there's one where I took like,

01:01:50   let's say four pictures of the same thing,

01:01:52   I'll quick make a snap decision

01:01:55   which one's the good one and go on.

01:01:56   - And delete the other three.

01:01:57   And then the old way, then what I used to do years ago,

01:02:00   and I still do every once in a while,

01:02:02   but I have to admit I just never get around to it

01:02:04   with most events, then I would go through

01:02:07   and really start thinking about which ones are good

01:02:09   and giving a four star ranking to this one

01:02:11   and five star to this one and stuff like that.

01:02:14   Giving them titles or putting names and stuff.

01:02:18   - I mean, I don't do anything.

01:02:20   I don't delete, I don't title, I don't organize.

01:02:23   And it's not that I don't want to,

01:02:27   it's just that I, it's just so much.

01:02:29   - It just never seems like there's a right time.

01:02:31   When you really want to take two hours and go through.

01:02:33   And it's, you know, once you've fallen behind,

01:02:35   now you've got, you know, a year worth of photos.

01:02:38   - Well, CJ said, who we met, who I met,

01:02:40   you've met before CJ at Webstock,

01:02:42   said that an eight hour layover in Singapore

01:02:45   is a good time to organize photos.

01:02:47   (both laughing)

01:02:48   So that seems like a long layover to me.

01:02:50   - Yeah, hanging out with CJ at Webstock

01:02:53   made me feel great about my New Zealand to Philadelphia

01:02:58   by way of Auckland and LAX.

01:03:01   I went through LAX, but there's no difference really

01:03:05   than going through SFO.

01:03:06   It made me feel a lot better

01:03:07   'cause he was going home to Sweden

01:03:09   and he was flying, instead of flying east,

01:03:12   he was flying west.

01:03:12   So it was like New Zealand to Australia to Singapore

01:03:16   to God knows where, Timbuktu.

01:03:19   Right, it was like one of the Indiana Jones trip, you know dot the picture of the little plane on the map on the sepia tone map

01:03:26   So what would you go back to web stock I would I think I mean I would hope to be invited again

01:03:34   But I but you know what I would like to do and we should get we should talk to Mike Monteiro

01:03:39   Because he did it a little bit is I would like to go for longer

01:03:41   go to web stock and then take a car around the South Island because everybody said that's like

01:03:46   That's the place and that's where a lot of them there are some locations around Wellington from the the Lord of the Rings movie

01:03:54   That's sort of like their cottage industry. Yeah

01:03:56   Tourist pitch anyhow is is go there and see the Lord of the Rings

01:04:01   Sites and stuff like that and the studio isn't right the studio is in Wellington. The was it weta. Yeah. Yeah, WTA right? Yeah

01:04:09   I'll take a guess and I'll assume I'm wrong that it's weta. Yeah, but it is I really

01:04:16   - Really?

01:04:17   See now everybody will be surprised

01:04:18   'cause whenever I have to guess at the pronunciation

01:04:20   of something, I always guess.

01:04:22   - I just what the cab driver said,

01:04:23   so maybe he was wrong, so I don't know.

01:04:25   - There's some locations on the North Island,

01:04:28   which is the one with Auckland and Wellington,

01:04:31   but the South Island is the one where it's apparently

01:04:33   a little bit more--

01:04:34   - A lot more scenic.

01:04:35   There's a lot more.

01:04:36   There's a lot less population,

01:04:37   a lot more public ground is supposed to be.

01:04:39   So I think that would be, you know,

01:04:42   I think I would like to go to Webstock again.

01:04:45   I would also like to see more of New Zealand.

01:04:48   So maybe we can work those two things together

01:04:50   at some point.

01:04:51   What else?

01:04:57   What talk did you think at Webstock

01:05:01   was most gratifying or most illuminating?

01:05:07   - That's a good question.

01:05:12   There were a bunch that were really good.

01:05:14   - I'm drawing a blank on his name.

01:05:15   The guy who wrote the novel, Mr. Penumbra's--

01:05:17   - Sloan, Robin Sloan. - Robin Sloan.

01:05:19   - That was a great talk, yeah.

01:05:20   - Gave a great talk on the way we,

01:05:25   I don't wanna butcher it by summarizing it the wrong way,

01:05:29   but part of it was about the way

01:05:31   that we don't really understand any new medium

01:05:34   until decades after it comes out.

01:05:36   And one of the ways he proved that was

01:05:39   by going back to the turn of the last century

01:05:42   and how when movies first became a thing,

01:05:46   people put like sarcastic quotes around the word movies.

01:05:49   That it was, you know, movies with quotes around it.

01:05:53   And that that lasted for decades,

01:05:55   like even up through like the 20s,

01:05:57   even until like the 1930s,

01:05:59   when people in newspapers wrote about movies,

01:06:01   they put the word in quotes,

01:06:03   like it was sort of not a real thing

01:06:05   or a valid art form.

01:06:06   - Right, or passing fancy of some sort, right, right.

01:06:09   - Right.

01:06:12   His talk reminded me of one thing.

01:06:13   I don't remember who said it, maybe,

01:06:15   I don't know where the quote is,

01:06:16   but when they first shown a movie for the first time,

01:06:21   somewhere in India or somewhere,

01:06:24   the audience didn't know whether they should look

01:06:27   at the screen or the light moving through the air,

01:06:30   like from the projection booth,

01:06:32   like they didn't know what was the most interesting thing.

01:06:34   I thought that's sort of funny.

01:06:35   So which way do you turn your chair?

01:06:36   - What was the best one for you?

01:06:40   What was your favorite?

01:06:41   I think that one was very entertaining.

01:06:45   I sort of enjoyed Jason Kotke's talk about building Stellar,

01:06:49   which I don't want to-- and I believe all the Web Stock

01:06:51   videos go up online, right?

01:06:53   So I'm not going to sort of spoil what it's about,

01:06:55   but it was a surprising--

01:06:58   it was a very typical talk about one guy building a web app that

01:07:02   took an interesting and surprising turn.

01:07:06   It was very human and emotional and also very informative.

01:07:09   So I like that.

01:07:10   And then I saw Kelly Anderson's talk about design

01:07:15   in everyday life, which really was great.

01:07:19   Some super interesting projects and a lot of really

01:07:22   terrific work presented in a entertaining

01:07:25   and intelligent way.

01:07:26   If you get a chance to see her speak, I would do that.

01:07:29   I think those two maybe were--

01:07:31   - Unsurprisingly, I have the same taste as you.

01:07:34   But yeah, Kottke's was great and very personal

01:07:39   in a very Jason way.

01:07:41   - Yes.

01:07:42   Every one of the room was surprised at one point in it.

01:07:47   Let's put it that way.

01:07:48   - Right, and I know he doesn't speak a lot,

01:07:49   so there's probably a lot of people out there listening

01:07:51   who certainly know his sight, probably daily,

01:07:54   but maybe don't know what he's like in person.

01:07:59   But I think he is a lot like what you think he is

01:08:01   from his sight.

01:08:02   You know, it's not quiet, but he's--

01:08:05   - Thoughtful and observant.

01:08:07   - Right.

01:08:09   Not a shouter.

01:08:09   - Sneaky funny.

01:08:10   - Right.

01:08:11   - That doesn't mean he's not funny,

01:08:12   it just means it's quiet funny, like smart funny.

01:08:16   - His talk and the way he gave it was really him,

01:08:19   I thought, in a way that I can't do.

01:08:22   I don't know, there's like a stage John Gruber that's,

01:08:26   I don't think it's, I'm disingenuous on stage,

01:08:29   but I don't know, I know that I'm not as

01:08:32   broadly personal as he was.

01:08:35   And I really enjoyed that.

01:08:36   And Kelly's, again, was great.

01:08:37   Kelly's one of those ones, like you said,

01:08:39   where I had never, I wasn't familiar with her work before.

01:08:42   I'd never met her before and now would consider her a friend

01:08:46   and blown away by the quality of her work.

01:08:49   - And then Mike brought the house down.

01:08:52   Mike Montero brought the house down.

01:08:53   He was the last speech on the last day

01:08:55   and he talked about designers' responsibility

01:08:58   to their work and to what's right and to their craft.

01:09:03   And it was, I don't know what you call that.

01:09:07   It brought the house down.

01:09:10   Everybody was, everybody was,

01:09:11   and it was powerful and positive,

01:09:14   and it was also a bit of a lecture,

01:09:17   so, but you know, but good, in a good way.

01:09:19   - And it was, boy, was that the right audience

01:09:22   for that talk, right?

01:09:23   I mean, like, in terms of actually him giving,

01:09:26   you know, hey, if you're doing it this way,

01:09:27   you're doing it wrong, and you should do it this way,

01:09:30   and not just for yourself, but really, literally,

01:09:32   he meant it for the world.

01:09:34   And the people in the audience are the people who,

01:09:36   You know and you know what a lot of speakers swear a lot right for effect

01:09:41   But he's the man nobody swears like fun to like in a speech like that, which is a highly structured well-rehearsed, right?

01:09:49   intellectually rigorous presentation

01:09:51   He is his his his profanity is powerful. I will say in a good way. So

01:09:59   Yeah, his use of profanity is about as eloquent

01:10:04   Well, what is the title of his most famous speech online fuck you pay me fuck you pay me, right?

01:10:11   So he's also good at making this time. This was called how designers destroyed the world, right? He's good with titles. He is good

01:10:17   It was a good way to end web stock

01:10:21   It's probably a good way to end the show. It probably is. Well, thanks for having me on

01:10:25   Yeah, thanks. I'm listening first time caller as they say

01:10:30   And if you have a chance to see the new 70 millimeter print of 2001, travel all the way

01:10:35   from Philadelphia to Chicago if you have to, it's worth it.

01:10:37   You know what this means, of course.

01:10:39   You know that they're going to schedule a 70 millimeter, a screening of this print in

01:10:42   Philly, probably while I'm flying home.

01:10:44   Yeah, maybe.

01:10:45   That's right.

01:10:46   Right.

01:10:47   Well, keep our eyes open for Barry Lyndon.

01:10:48   We'll go back to Ohio State.

01:10:49   We could tell the story about the countdown bar at some point, but we'll have to do that

01:10:52   on a future episode.

01:10:53   Yeah, we'll save that one.

01:10:54   All right.

01:10:55   Thanks, John.