The Talk Show

13: Unusually Open, with Michael Lopp


00:00:00   Good morning.

00:00:01   Good morning, Michael Lop.

00:00:05   People often… the number one complaint I think about the talk show is that I don't

00:00:08   introduce my guest.

00:00:09   We just start talking and we talk.

00:00:12   So I'm introducing you.

00:00:13   Your name is Michael Lop.

00:00:16   I don't think I've ever heard you… maybe at South by Southwest you've said Michael

00:00:20   Lop, but I've never heard my full name from you in a really long time.

00:00:27   This microphone is huge, John.

00:00:29   Thank you for the recommendation.

00:00:30   But I've got this huge thing pointed at my face, which I think sounds really good.

00:00:34   But it's just dominating the room.

00:00:38   That would be the road podcaster, which is my recommendation.

00:00:44   All the way back, dates back to a recommendation from our good friend,

00:00:50   Dan Benjamin, former co-host of the show.

00:00:56   More or less, the answer is, if you don't know what to get

00:00:58   and you want to record a podcast,

00:00:59   you get the Rode Podcaster USB mic.

00:01:02   But it is enormous.

00:01:03   It's about the size of a grown man's forearm.

00:01:07   - But I think it actually hears better than I do.

00:01:11   When I first put it on, I put on the headphones.

00:01:13   I'm like, wow, this thing's huge.

00:01:15   I could hear my kids in the other room, right?

00:01:17   I mean, I'm like, wow, you know?

00:01:20   What are they doing down there?

00:01:21   And I took my headphones off

00:01:22   and I couldn't hear them anymore.

00:01:23   It actually makes me, as I told you in an email,

00:01:25   it actually makes me feel bionic.

00:01:27   can hear everything around me.

00:01:29   Right, you can hear, I can hear, whenever I plug in,

00:01:33   I can hear the wheels of my chair on the floor.

00:01:36   Right.

00:01:37   Did you get the bionic arm thing for it?

00:01:39   I did, my kids come in and play with it,

00:01:41   and they're like, this is so awesome,

00:01:43   Daddy's radio store, I'm like, no, I'm just a nerd.

00:01:47   Okay, big week, wow, two big pieces from Daring Fireball.

00:01:52   I felt compelled since we were talking

00:01:53   to go and read them.

00:01:55   You know what, I'll tell you this,

00:01:55   'cause you'll appreciate this,

00:01:57   And I think maybe the people who listen to it, listen to the show will appreciate it.

00:02:02   Maybe it's just the early morning loopiness, but it wasn't.

00:02:05   Now, you know this, that a few people have noted it, that yesterday, not yesterday, Monday,

00:02:12   earlier this week, the 13th of August was, in fact, the 10 year anniversary of the first

00:02:19   post on Daring Fireball.

00:02:21   Congratulations.

00:02:22   Thank you.

00:02:23   I didn't note this publicly.

00:02:25   I didn't mention it.

00:02:26   never, to my knowledge, I don't believe, noted publicly that August 13th is an anniversary

00:02:33   date for Daring Fireball. So a year ago, I didn't note the ninth anniversary. I didn't

00:02:39   note the eighth. I didn't note the seventh. I knew it though. I was very much aware of

00:02:43   it. Like when I went to bed Sunday night, I went to bed thinking, "I hope nobody notices

00:02:49   or says anything tomorrow." And when I woke up, it was the opposite. There were a bunch

00:02:54   of really nice things. Kottke wrote a nice thing. There was a thing at the Atlantic.

00:02:58   A couple people around the web did take notice of it, knew that it was the 10-year anniversary,

00:03:07   and everything that anybody wrote about it was all very complimentary. It was very,

00:03:10   very flattering. I went from waking up thinking, "I hope nobody has noticed this," to thinking,

00:03:16   "Well, this is all very, very nice, and I feel very flattered."

00:03:20   Do you remember the day?

00:03:23   That I wrote the first one?

00:03:25   Yeah.

00:03:26   Do you remember the--

00:03:27   I do.

00:03:27   Can you describe it to me?

00:03:31   Well, I don't know the day so much,

00:03:32   but I do remember that I'd spent weeks leading up to it,

00:03:37   working on the site.

00:03:38   The design, picking the color.

00:03:40   I mean, I've said this to Merlin a couple of times,

00:03:42   that it took me a long time to pick the exact color.

00:03:46   It's a little darker, a little lighter, a little darker,

00:03:48   lighter and looking at it in multiple monitors and trying to find the right shade of ever

00:03:54   so slightly blue tinted gray and various other aspects of the design.

00:04:03   But eventually it was ready to go and I just needed something to write.

00:04:07   And the thing I could and I can remember this feeling very palpably is that as nerve-wracking

00:04:14   as it is to write something for public consumption.

00:04:18   For me, it's even more nerve-wracking to write something for nobody's consumption.

00:04:25   That it's like, you know, and in the same way that it's nerve-wracking to get up and speak

00:04:30   in public in front of an audience, to me, it would be even more awkward to get up on a stage

00:04:36   with a microphone and speak in front of an empty room with a microphone.

00:04:41   Then that, to me, is what publishing the first article felt like.

00:04:44   like getting up and giving a speech in front of what I'd suspected to be a completely empty room.

00:04:51   And when I, the magic is the first step, I think. Because I think once you have it going,

00:04:58   and to me, and it's like going, going out for a run, right? Where, you know, you know, you want

00:05:03   to run four miles or three miles or something like that. And if you're halfway through,

00:05:07   and you just feel beat, but you know, you're not home yet. And you know, you're having done the

00:05:12   thing. You just keep your feet moving. Just keep them moving. Just keep them moving and eventually

00:05:17   you're going to be home and you're going to have the miles in. But to me, the one that's hardest is

00:05:21   right outside your front door when you haven't started yet. And you're not sweaty and you're

00:05:27   not tired and you haven't, you know, your feet haven't even started moving yet. It's just going

00:05:33   from "I'm standing still, I haven't started" to "Okay, I'm running." That transition, that's the

00:05:39   the hard part.

00:05:40   - Totally agree with that.

00:05:42   - 'Cause once you start, it's way easier to keep going

00:05:44   than it is to get started.

00:05:45   Getting started is without question the hardest part.

00:05:47   - I think I've had like three or four articles

00:05:50   on that topic of just that nudge that you have

00:05:52   to give yourself, so I've thought about this considerably.

00:05:55   - No, and I will say this, I will,

00:05:59   and I'm gonna be unusually open, because it's you.

00:06:03   - Uh-oh.

00:06:07   But the idea I had was that I wasn't going to publicly acknowledge the ten-year anniversary

00:06:14   of Daring Fireball.

00:06:15   I wasn't going to tacitly acknowledge it.

00:06:19   But I would implicitly acknowledge it by publishing on the actual tenth anniversary what I thought

00:06:26   to be prototypically Daring Fireball-ish article.

00:06:30   But the article I was going to write was the one that I didn't write on the thirteenth.

00:06:33   is the one I wrote yesterday on the further information and speculation on the iPad Mini.

00:06:42   But I didn't write that on the 13th. I wrote on the 13th my review of the Retina MacBook Pro.

00:06:50   And here's how that came about. It's when I woke up on the 13th. And this is true, I swear.

00:06:57   And I realized that there were a couple people around the web who did notice and acknowledge

00:07:01   the 10-year anniversary of Daring Fireball.

00:07:04   One of them was, did you see this thing?

00:07:06   It's at the Atlantic.

00:07:08   This young kid, you think he's only in college,

00:07:10   Robinson Meyer, wrote an article at the Atlantic

00:07:13   called Happy 10th Birthday Daring Fireball.

00:07:16   And it's a really nice little piece,

00:07:21   very, very flattering overall.

00:07:23   Anybody who got an article, my dad,

00:07:25   my dad even called me on the day of the day.

00:07:28   And my dad, he often doesn't acknowledge it,

00:07:31   But sometimes that he can't help because there's no other way

00:07:33   that he can acknowledge what he's talking about,

00:07:36   but that he apparently-- I don't know if he does it every day,

00:07:39   but at least a couple times a week, my dad Googles my name

00:07:42   and sees what's going on.

00:07:43   And he doesn't really get it.

00:07:44   He's not a technology guy.

00:07:48   But Googling my name on Monday, this came up.

00:07:52   And the Atlantic-- that's like an A-list name.

00:07:56   And he was like, hey, did you see this thing at the Atlantic?

00:07:59   And yeah.

00:08:00   And my dad, you know, kind of made my dad's day.

00:08:02   So Robinson Meyer, I've never heard of him before,

00:08:05   but he wrote this nice piece

00:08:06   on the 10th anniversary of Daring Firebomb.

00:08:10   And he says at the beginning,

00:08:13   and I think this is very nice,

00:08:14   and I feel like this is a guy who gets it.

00:08:15   He wrote, "It's a blog not just about Apple,

00:08:19   "but about excellence."

00:08:21   - Nice.

00:08:22   - I say that as a sentence, that's actually,

00:08:24   that's a guy who gets it, and it sees what I'm going for.

00:08:27   It's all very, very flattering,

00:08:28   And anybody who had an article like this written about their work should be very, very flattered.

00:08:33   But I wasn't flattered because at the very end was this paragraph.

00:08:37   It's the third from the bottom.

00:08:38   It says, "The past year, DF hasn't been as enjoyable as it has been in the past."

00:08:44   >> Oh.

00:08:45   >> "Apple, Gruber's Beatrice, is engorged as a company and now seems to be veering from

00:08:51   interesting complex to dully complicated."

00:08:54   (laughs)

00:08:57   Parentheses, I hope the next few months prove me wrong

00:08:59   on both counts, end parentheses.

00:09:01   10 years ago, Gruber picked the right story

00:09:04   at the right time and followed the most complete

00:09:06   business turnaround and aesthetic parable

00:09:08   in recent history.

00:09:09   But, in light of that victory, his renegade confidence

00:09:14   has become an assured superiority.

00:09:16   He hasn't written, for a long time,

00:09:20   an engaging description of a laptop.

00:09:23   and that was a link to my 2005 article on a Power Book,

00:09:28   what was then called a Power Book, 15-inch Power Book,

00:09:32   or an account of an anthropomorphized interface settlement.

00:09:35   And that paragraph really stuck with me

00:09:39   and really, it really pissed me off.

00:09:42   And that made me, honest to God, that's what made me,

00:09:45   instead of writing yesterday about the upcoming tablet stuff

00:09:50   that I thought about and know about,

00:09:52   little little bits here and there that I know a little bit here and there that I've sort of thought through and

00:09:56   I thought fuck you. I'll show you a fucking engaging description

00:10:00   You know

00:10:06   But you know what I mean I to me and and and then I thought about it afterwards I thought well

00:10:11   Why did I do that? Why would I?

00:10:13   Why would I get so fired up about an article that I should be should feel flattered by not fired up by

00:10:21   But I feel like that's the way you have to be I feel like you've got to if you're not looking for I

00:10:28   Don't know sometimes. I feel like you need to look for an enemy not an enemy, but I

00:10:33   Don't know my my my people knew the people who have actually really changed my day or been the sources of

00:10:41   Articles if they actually knew who they were I don't know who a lot of them are because it's sort of anonymous people

00:10:47   but the amount of energy that I get from the random critic who's sane but critical, not

00:10:53   just the total troll, they'd be shocked. I can't do origin stories on all of the articles,

00:11:00   but the amount of energy that I've gotten from random folks saying, "Hey, Rands is not

00:11:08   resonating with me. You haven't really said anything in a month or two." This person,

00:11:11   who I do not know at all, who now just ruined my weekend because now I'm going to sit there

00:11:16   and write a piece about pens or something like that.

00:11:19   This happens a lot.

00:11:21   I'm listening, I see everything that comes by my inbox,

00:11:25   and it does affect me,

00:11:26   even though I don't know who these people are.

00:11:28   - Right, and you'll make it fire you up.

00:11:32   - Yes.

00:11:33   - Right, and I know that athletes are like this too,

00:11:36   and if you say anything that can be construed

00:11:40   as confrontational, it's going up on the locker room wall,

00:11:45   and it's going to be framed, and they're going to use that,

00:11:48   and they're going to say, oh, fuck this guy.

00:11:51   You think you're going to beat us?

00:11:53   If you imply that you think you're

00:11:54   going to beat the opposing team, that's

00:11:57   going up on the locker room board,

00:11:58   and everybody on the opposing team is going to see that.

00:12:01   You need something to fire you up.

00:12:03   Yeah, I mean, I don't know about you, but most of my pieces,

00:12:09   I literally see 70% of the piece in my head based on just some,

00:12:14   again, bit flipping in my head.

00:12:16   I'm like, doo, doo, doo.

00:12:17   And I'm just like, oh, that's the thing I want to say.

00:12:19   And it's whether it's someone kicking me

00:12:21   or just being inspired by reading something,

00:12:24   I can actually see the whole piece.

00:12:26   And when I have that moment, it's

00:12:28   just run to the nearest keyboard as quickly as possible

00:12:31   or a piece of paper and just start getting it out there.

00:12:35   It's a lovely experience.

00:12:37   I love when I capture that.

00:12:40   I just pasted a link to you.

00:12:41   Did you see this?

00:12:42   This guy named Kemper Smith at DistantShape.com.

00:12:47   - Oh, this is beautiful.

00:12:50   - And he did this with no help from me.

00:12:53   And he didn't ping me in advance.

00:12:55   I didn't turn down a request, but he did this.

00:12:58   He downloaded all 962 full articles

00:13:03   that I've written at Daring Fireball

00:13:06   over the last 10 years and tagged them himself.

00:13:10   Even though I've actually been tagging all of my articles all along, but the tags I've

00:13:16   been applying to them aren't exposed publicly anywhere.

00:13:19   They're only in movable type behind the scenes.

00:13:23   And I guess someday I'll try to expose it somehow.

00:13:27   But it's not publicly available.

00:13:28   So this guy downloaded all the articles, read them all, and as he read them, tagged them

00:13:33   all.

00:13:34   And you can see the tags he applied underneath.

00:13:40   And I emailed him after this came out because it's so interesting.

00:13:47   And number one, I asked him, "Dude, did you tag all these yourself?"

00:13:52   And he was like, "Yeah."

00:13:53   And I was like, "Oh, my God, I almost feel guilty about that because I've got the tags

00:13:56   behind the scenes and, you know, could have saved you some work."

00:14:01   But maybe the tags he implied are more interesting, but maybe they're more honest because they're

00:14:05   more objective than the tags I would have applied.

00:14:08   But he even admitted that he didn't do it from the outset

00:14:11   to achieve the visualization he has,

00:14:14   but only realized as he was going that it would make

00:14:17   for a good visualization, is that he's applied colors

00:14:21   to the articles on this graph.

00:14:24   Blue meaning desktop topics, typically,

00:14:28   almost certainly Mac.

00:14:30   And pink for mobile, meaning iOS or iPad, I guess.

00:14:36   And it just so happens, if you think about it,

00:14:41   that given that the iPhone came out in 2007,

00:14:46   that if now is the 10-year anniversary of "Daring

00:14:49   Fireball," that it's actually half of the-- the first half,

00:14:53   the first five years that I've been writing "Daring Fireball,"

00:14:56   there was no iPhone.

00:14:57   In the last five years, there has been an iPhone.

00:15:00   And you can kind of see on this graph

00:15:04   that he's made this shift in topics on Daring Fireball from desktop to mobile.

00:15:09   You've got blue on the left, you've got kind of purple in the middle, and then

00:15:14   pink on the right. So he's also got a pivot to go to showing

00:15:19   article length as well, and there's something very comforting. First off,

00:15:24   it looks like you're generally writing shorter articles, but what's more interesting to me is that

00:15:29   There is this flow to the size of your articles over the course of a year. It looks like yeah

00:15:34   There's this little like sort of bump. It looks like what winter time

00:15:39   I can't actually figure it out, but there is a cape there is a structure to the size of your articles over the course of

00:15:44   the year which

00:15:45   Is fascinating yeah, and it's not winter though. It's is it. I don't know no, but there is

00:15:52   There is a pattern to it, but it doesn't quite seem to be

00:15:57   cyclical or it doesn't quite correspond to the calendar in any way, but there is like a

00:16:02   sine-wave like motion to it

00:16:05   Interesting and it is interesting and it's the sort of thing where I often think about doing stuff like this

00:16:11   I often think like you know what I should do is you know

00:16:14   And it's the type of programming that I'm actually capable of doing is like the let me export everything

00:16:19   I've ever written it during fireball and count all the words

00:16:21   Or or let me I you know, I can do stuff like this

00:16:25   This is the type of programming I can do.

00:16:27   Or let me average how many words I've written a month

00:16:30   for the last 10 years.

00:16:32   Or is there any kind of pattern?

00:16:34   Am I writing fewer words per month?

00:16:36   Am I writing more art?

00:16:39   That sort of thing.

00:16:41   But then I get freaked out by it.

00:16:42   I get freaked out by the self-awareness,

00:16:44   and I don't do it.

00:16:45   So it's interesting to see somebody else do it.

00:16:47   And you're right, though.

00:16:48   There's definitely a sine wave pattern here

00:16:51   to the length of the pieces.

00:16:53   OK, there's another tag down here

00:16:54   that's really important because I know this is a personal issue of yours.

00:16:58   I've got a whiny Boston Terrier outside my window. I have to go in like two seconds.

00:17:02   But there's a tag here which is "was wrong about

00:17:06   something" and according to him, I'm just eyeballing this,

00:17:10   one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, maybe like fifteen.

00:17:14   There's fifteen that he measured as

00:17:18   "was wrong about something."

00:17:22   I know you're obsessive about this.

00:17:24   I feel like number is low.

00:17:27   15 wrong about something.

00:17:29   Does that, do you feel like number's right?

00:17:31   (laughing)

00:17:33   - I wish that it were zero.

00:17:34   God, I wish it were zero.

00:17:36   1.5 times a year, though, I'm wrong about something?

00:17:39   That sounds good.

00:17:41   And you know what, one reason that that could be low

00:17:45   is that he's only counting, for lack of an official term,

00:17:49   full articles, the ones that get a star in the RSS reader and show up in my archive.

00:17:55   >> His whole methodology is actually suspect. He's got the tag right next to it is "was

00:18:00   correct about something" and it's "for."

00:18:02   >> My favorite, and this is why it's a little bit more interesting that he tagged the articles

00:18:12   rather than going with if he had somehow had access to my internal tags, which don't have

00:18:17   stuff like that. My tags are just stuff like, you know, tablets, or Android, Samsung versus

00:18:28   Apple lawsuit or something like that. He's got one where, where is it? It was like Gruber

00:18:33   knows something.

00:18:34   Jonathan Wasserstein Gruber has inside information.

00:18:37   Trenton Larkin Yeah, there it is. Gruber has inside information.

00:18:39   Jonathan Wasserstein Yeah.

00:18:40   Trenton Larkin And that's pretty good.

00:18:41   Jonathan Wasserstein John Siracusa. Let's see what's going on

00:18:43   - You've tagged John Sirkira less than you've been wrong.

00:18:48   - Yeah, but I do feel, I will say this, I will say this,

00:18:55   and I have said this publicly many times,

00:18:58   that it is one of my goals with the site,

00:19:00   overriding always, every day, always very aware of it,

00:19:05   is it's in my mind, don't be wrong,

00:19:09   be right about everything.

00:19:10   But on the other hand, I wanna take chances,

00:19:14   I wanna push myself, and I...

00:19:18   If I'm never wrong, then I'm not pushing hard enough.

00:19:21   - Sure.

00:19:22   - Right?

00:19:23   I mean, I think that's true in anything in life, right?

00:19:25   I mean, if you don't have any failures,

00:19:27   you're not pushing yourself.

00:19:29   And when you are wrong, immediately get on top of it.

00:19:33   The first thing to do when you realize you're wrong

00:19:35   is acknowledge it, and you do it publicly.

00:19:37   You just say, "You know what?

00:19:38   "Here's this thing, I wrote this, that's wrong.

00:19:40   Here's why.

00:19:41   And get on top of it.

00:19:42   Do not be the guy who, because he doesn't want to be wrong,

00:19:47   starts working on ways to show how when he was wrong,

00:19:51   he wasn't wrong.

00:19:52   Don't be that guy.

00:19:54   - I think it's a, I think it's,

00:19:55   I think it's, well, 10 year anniversary,

00:19:57   we can honor Fireball a little bit,

00:19:59   but I think that's one of the defining reasons

00:20:02   it's been successful,

00:20:03   as it's the journalism background, right?

00:20:05   Is you don't just, you know, you don't,

00:20:07   not like rands where it's like kind of op-ed pieces

00:20:10   and dreaming and poetry and whatnot.

00:20:12   But you base your statements as best you can,

00:20:16   unless you flag it as otherwise,

00:20:18   you base them on facts, right?

00:20:20   And just when you go and you see all the mass media stuff

00:20:23   of people with opinions and going back and forth,

00:20:25   it's sort of refreshing, and obviously I'm a fan and biased,

00:20:28   to actually know that in both the pieces

00:20:31   that you did this week, it's like,

00:20:32   this is based on the best data that I have,

00:20:35   and I'm gonna source the best I can.

00:20:36   And yes, I will have opinions about this,

00:20:38   But at the end of the day, this is sourced information.

00:20:43   Does that make sense?

00:20:44   Yeah.

00:20:45   But if I'm wrong, I'm going to get right on top of it.

00:20:47   So let's just say it.

00:20:48   For example, with this whole iPad Mini or iPad Air,

00:20:51   whatever you want to call it thing,

00:20:53   let's say that the thing ships and it doesn't have a 4, 3, 10.

00:20:56   One of the fundamental things I've been writing about all year

00:20:59   is that if Apple makes a smaller iPad,

00:21:01   it's going to have a 1024 by 768, 4 to 3 aspect ratio

00:21:06   display at 163 dpi.

00:21:08   let's say this thing ships and it has a 16 to nine display a

00:21:12   widescreen display or iPhone like three to display. Well,

00:21:18   then the first thing I'm going to do is say, Well, holy shit, I

00:21:20   was wrong and link to the instances in the past that I've

00:21:24   written that it's going to have the 4310, six, you know, 1048

00:21:28   by the 1024 by 768 display, and just get it all out and just

00:21:33   say, Look, I was wrong here, here, here and here, terribly

00:21:37   awfully completely wrong, bad assumption, and get right.

00:21:42   Show where everything I'd been writing was wrong

00:21:48   and immediately try to get on top of all that.

00:21:51   Acknowledge everywhere I was wrong and then get right

00:21:54   and then explain what that means.

00:21:55   - Right.

00:21:56   - There's no other way to do it.

00:21:57   I don't understand people who do it otherwise.

00:22:00   - I think they don't wanna be wrong.

00:22:02   There's, oh no, they're okay being wrong.

00:22:04   There's another tag here that's very interesting.

00:22:06   tag is calls somebody jackass.

00:22:09   And I think this is underrepresented too.

00:22:12   It looks like in 2006 you were calling

00:22:14   a lot of people jackasses, but I think you've done it more.

00:22:17   I mean, jackass of the week is sort of,

00:22:19   or whatever the, has it died down?

00:22:22   - Yeah, definitely.

00:22:23   But see, the reason why is that I think most jackasses

00:22:27   of the week were what I call linked list items,

00:22:29   not full articles.

00:22:31   - Right.

00:22:32   - Right, and I would just link to the jackass

00:22:34   and explain why they're a jackass,

00:22:36   but without writing a full article about them.

00:22:38   So there's not going to be a lot of them.

00:22:41   These tags are great.

00:22:43   Fictitious dialog.

00:22:44   This is another one.

00:22:45   This is one of the first things-- my memories of you

00:22:47   was-- what was it?

00:22:48   The anthropomorphized-- I can't even say it.

00:22:50   It's too early.

00:22:52   Chrome.

00:22:53   Anthropomorphized brushed metal interface.

00:22:56   Exactly.

00:22:57   This was-- they feel like a rare treat to me.

00:23:01   I feel like you're literally-- a lot of your articles,

00:23:04   it's clear you're working.

00:23:05   and you're like, "Gotta get this right."

00:23:07   These, I imagine you sitting back, drinking a martini,

00:23:11   kind of giggling to yourself as you're writing the piece

00:23:13   and getting a little drunk, right?

00:23:15   This is what I saw in them.

00:23:17   - Yeah, and there's no, you know, somehow I feel like

00:23:23   I'm a little overdue for something silly on this site.

00:23:27   - Well, we have tags to prove it.

00:23:29   - Yeah, no, these tags are great.

00:23:31   You know, and I should mention,

00:23:33   and we ran through this last night,

00:23:35   But you actually hit your 10th anniversary on Ransom Repose before I did.

00:23:39   You say it was earlier this year.

00:23:41   You're not quite exactly sure when?

00:23:42   It was April.

00:23:43   I wasn't paying attention either, but I got all that coverage on Fox, and CNN had that

00:23:49   cover story about me.

00:23:50   So it was a pretty big deal.

00:23:53   I played it quiet, though.

00:23:55   It was 10 years ago in April.

00:23:56   I wasn't going to say anything.

00:23:59   I got a couple notes from folks, but I was launching my web fonts at the time, so it

00:24:05   seemed like a time to at least say something.

00:24:09   It's ten years.

00:24:10   I find that interesting that the two of us started completely independently and over

00:24:15   those years in many drinks and Southbys and Las Vegas situations, here we are sitting

00:24:21   here ten years later.

00:24:22   There's something very synergistic about that.

00:24:26   And there are and and you know, I think a lot of it is the nature of

00:24:30   What's likely if you started your website circa

00:24:35   2002 right there's a very good chance that you're running movable type and you and I are both running movable type

00:24:42   You're still running moveable type. Yeah, I've considered other things but I mean I have no reason to leave

00:24:47   There's nothing it does. It doesn't do that. I need it to do although I did see that have

00:24:52   Not movable type but blogger

00:24:54   Launched medium last night. It's I did I saw that too and it is funny because I'll tell you what on the days when I'm actually

00:25:02   Writing a bit a bigger article and and the last two days Monday and Tuesday of this week

00:25:08   That's what I've spent my days doing is

00:25:10   nose down writing

00:25:12   Like nobody's talking to me and like I'm skipping meals and I'm just writing writing writing, right?

00:25:18   The world then passes me by right like it is kind of it is kind of much mutually exclusive

00:25:25   To the other side of during fireball where I'm linking to what's new in technology with brief pieces

00:25:31   Like so on days when I'm not really writing anything big

00:25:34   I'm like on top of the industry and I'm like within five minutes aware of everything that's going on

00:25:39   Everywhere and on the days when I'm actually writing it's like like last night

00:25:45   I went I was I don't even know when I realized that that that medium was announced

00:25:49   but it wasn't when it when it hit like it was hours later and I was like I'd written my article and

00:25:54   my family was you know, my wife my son they were in bed and

00:25:58   And then I could catch up on Twitter and then all of a sudden I realized holy shit have Evan Williams

00:26:04   Just launched an entire new blogging platform or something, but I don't quite get it. I don't get medium. No, I don't get it yet

00:26:10   I mean, I've given it 15 minutes and it's Evan so you've got to pay attention right, but it's I'm like, okay

00:26:17   I haven't found a compelling thing. Although they have a very nice

00:26:20   Slab serif M as their as their mark, I mean their logo so but I haven't actually like digested what the hell they're up to

00:26:28   Yeah, I absolutely feel the same way you do where if the guys last couple of projects that he helped launch were blogger and

00:26:35   Twitter

00:26:38   Then yeah, you know you kind of want to you're gonna you're gonna give the guy the benefit of the doubt

00:26:43   No, you're like. Yes. I will sign up. I will give you my $50

00:26:46   I will I'm certainly interested even though I do not get it yet and even his miss

00:26:52   Which I would describe Odeo as was the right idea which was hey podcasts are gonna be a big deal

00:26:59   Yeah, kind of before like because and and the thing that killed Odeo

00:27:04   I think more or less was Apple getting into podcasts. I remember a day

00:27:09   And and Apple got into podcasts

00:27:12   surprisingly early for Apple yes, like

00:27:16   I'm still I still think I still think it's one of the most interesting things Apple's done in the last 10 years was the way that

00:27:23   Apple jumped on podcasting so early right and it kind of killed audio

00:27:28   But at least even so even even the one that they missed on the thing that didn't really amount to much

00:27:34   Ended up being the right idea just wasn't wasn't the right it wasn't really a business model

00:27:39   He was he was collecting bright people and this is my recollection during that time to like Dunstan

00:27:44   And I think was Dorsey was in that at that. I mean, so he had this incubator going on in there

00:27:49   So even though it didn't work out he had that sort of

00:27:52   Universe of people around him that you know went off and did somewhat interesting things

00:27:57   Right the long story short was that you know, it was the the the parent company, which is a great name

00:28:02   I think it's one of the great names. I've said this to have I don't know have that well

00:28:06   But I have said this to him and I've when I've seen him is that obvious corporation is one of my favorite

00:28:11   names in the history of naming anything

00:28:14   Then kind of helps explain it is it is sort of a like

00:28:20   It's an app description of everything I have Williams ever does right, right?

00:28:26   It's like blogger was sort of an obvious idea Twitter super obvious idea pod key

00:28:30   You know, it's like a way of being like, are we on the right path?

00:28:34   Is this obvious?

00:28:35   Right.

00:28:37   But the idea was that the ODO was their big bet and the thing

00:28:40   that they actually had money invested in and lots of time and everything.

00:28:43   And then they gave up on it.

00:28:45   And in the meantime, Jack Dorsey, who was working there,

00:28:48   had this little idea for, well, what about this idea

00:28:51   I have for a centralized server for sending status messages?

00:28:57   And then, you know, boom, Twitter.

00:29:00   Yeah, the dude can pick names, medium.

00:29:02   It's a great name.

00:29:03   And exactly describe-- I mean, whatever.

00:29:05   I'm not sure what they're doing.

00:29:06   But clearly, it's just like, let's try

00:29:09   to reimagine the blogging, the content platform.

00:29:14   Hey, let me take a break here and talk

00:29:16   about the first sponsor.

00:29:17   OK.

00:29:20   And I want to tell you, it's an iPhone app.

00:29:23   And it's a repeat sponsor from a few episodes ago.

00:29:27   app for your iPhone called Hue-less.

00:29:31   It's a photography app.

00:29:32   It's a camera app for your iPhone.

00:29:34   And it's sort of a do one thing and do one thing well app.

00:29:40   And the one thing that Hue-less does

00:29:43   is take black and white photography.

00:29:46   Now, Michael, do you like black and white pictures?

00:29:49   Anyone who follows me on Instagram

00:29:50   knows that I'm still furious about the removal

00:29:53   of the Gotham filter, because I think it was--

00:29:56   Which is like 18 months ago.

00:29:57   I'm still mad about this.

00:29:58   I still tag rip Gotham because I figured out how to sort of approximate it, but I'm mad.

00:30:04   I have a conspiracy theory about why it was removed, but please continue.

00:30:08   This was a complete setup because I know, as a guy who follows you on Instagram, that

00:30:13   you love black and white photography.

00:30:16   That's all Huellist does.

00:30:17   Huellist is an app that is meant for taking.

00:30:22   It's a black and white camera app.

00:30:23   That's what it is.

00:30:25   I'm a huge fan of it, and I've always been a fan of black and white.

00:30:28   I think that there's this weird psychology behind black and white.

00:30:31   I know it's not natural.

00:30:32   I know that the whole origins of black and white

00:30:36   were like technical limitations that kept us from shooting in color.

00:30:39   But in hindsight, there's this great, great emotional effect

00:30:42   from black and white photography.

00:30:44   And I think there's really something to seeing your pictures in black and white

00:30:51   as you're shooting them so that you know what you're getting.

00:30:55   and that's what Huellist is all about.

00:30:57   And they have a brand new version, 1.5,

00:31:01   it's in the months since the last time

00:31:03   they've sponsored the show.

00:31:05   They've been hard at work and some really great features.

00:31:08   They've got some new aspect ratios that you can enjoy.

00:31:12   So you can shoot one to one, which means square,

00:31:16   which means like optimized for Instapaper

00:31:18   right in the camera.

00:31:20   You can shoot three to two,

00:31:22   which is the aspect ratio of the iPhone screen, or at least the iPhone that we have right

00:31:26   now.

00:31:27   So you can shoot full frame.

00:31:29   You've got new aspect ratios.

00:31:31   You see them right there on the screen as you shoot.

00:31:36   A bunch of cleanup, the way that they made the user interface even more streamlined.

00:31:41   Improved direct access to their color filters.

00:31:43   Now the color filters, you say, "What the hell?

00:31:45   You said it's a black and white app."

00:31:46   The color filters, what I mean is that they simulate in terms of traditional photography

00:31:52   the way that you would put like an orange filter over your lens or a green filter or a blue filter

00:31:56   Which filters the light that comes through and you get different degrees of contrast or for example?

00:32:02   And I got them and it's so early in the morning that it's like pitch black here

00:32:07   So I can't I'm guessing wrong but like if you want the sky to pop against the clouds

00:32:13   I think you put like a blue filter on and then the blue will look dark and the white of the clouds will look

00:32:18   white

00:32:21   You put a color filter on and you get different types of contrast out of the black and white

00:32:26   So in other words, it's not about making the image tinted color. It's about

00:32:30   Altering what is dark? What is light and the thing they've improved the interface for that?

00:32:35   Dramatically so that you can switch the color filter on the fly in the viewfinder

00:32:40   More conveniently, it's really really nice

00:32:45   It's a for the Gotham just to back you up here the the Gotham filter that to rebuild it

00:32:50   which involves about two different apps,

00:32:52   which the first app is a black and white app.

00:32:54   The first thing that I do is actually a red filter,

00:32:56   which actually gets that pop that you see against clouds

00:33:00   and makes the sky incredibly black.

00:33:01   - And Helus has a red filter built right in.

00:33:05   There's a slider that lets you adjust how strong it is,

00:33:08   whether it's dark, whether it's light.

00:33:10   It really is absolutely, positively,

00:33:13   one of my favorite apps for the iPhone.

00:33:16   And if I'm thinking, if I'm feeling black and white,

00:33:18   immediately that's what I know I want to go to I go to Hugh list to shoot the

00:33:22   photo and I think everybody should check it out you can go to Hugh less h u e l e

00:33:31   s s app.com and find out more get a link to their to their app in the App Store

00:33:38   and if you've already got it just quick go to the App Store app and and download

00:33:42   the 1.5 update you've you definitely want it it's it's it's a great update

00:33:47   everybody should get it if you don't have it shame on you you less in the app

00:33:53   store $1.99 I mean for God's sake one a dollar ninety nine buck ninety nine how

00:33:57   who can't afford that less than a cup of coffee exactly

00:34:04   what were we talking about what the hell were we talking about we were we were we

00:34:11   We were talking about Ev and Medium and serial entrepreneurs and that sort of thing.

00:34:18   I don't quite get it.

00:34:19   I don't get what Medium is quite all about.

00:34:20   I feel like I'll get it as more people who are on it use it.

00:34:27   Totally.

00:34:28   No, I'll pay very close attention.

00:34:31   But also blogging, really?

00:34:32   Again, we're doing this?

00:34:33   That's right.

00:34:34   I'm cool with that.

00:34:35   The thing I saw that helped me explain it, and he is.

00:34:40   He's like one of my go-to guys that I've been reading since long before, like, you know,

00:34:45   and we're talking about me and you blogging for ten years, but like, makes me feel like

00:34:48   it hasn't even been that long because this guy's been at it.

00:34:51   Like when I got started, I feel like he was already at it for a long time.

00:34:54   Dave Weiner.

00:34:55   I saw Dave Weiner on Twitter last night, and he's already on Medium and has an account.

00:35:01   And I mean, literally, the guy Dave Weiner arguably invented blogging, maybe even invented

00:35:06   the word.

00:35:07   like the guy was writing blogging software like like while some of us

00:35:13   hadn't even learned HTML yet in the 90s and the way he described it was that in

00:35:22   medium that you don't you don't put a category on a post you put a put you put

00:35:28   a post in a category right like a centralized category in the system which

00:35:35   Which is sort of an interesting way to think about it.

00:35:37   You don't just write a post and tag it Apple.

00:35:39   There's like an Apple category and you put a post in it.

00:35:43   And then somebody out there using it would be surfing the Apple category and then they'll

00:35:46   see your post.

00:35:47   So it's not about the individual necessary.

00:35:50   It's like you have these buckets of stuff that if you want to go see, I don't know,

00:35:54   interesting or new or Apple that you can just drill down and see all of the different pieces

00:35:57   inside of it.

00:35:58   That makes sense.

00:35:59   It's simple, but that makes sense.

00:36:00   Yeah, something like that.

00:36:03   You get do what do you have a MacBook Pro with retina display I?

00:36:09   Don't and I knew you ask me that and I have I have I feel bad because I've seen it enough around and on work that

00:36:17   It's it's it's you just I mean so you're gonna say this anyway

00:36:21   But you just see it in your life is completely changed and everything else starts to look just you know not so shiny

00:36:28   Yeah, so that is sort of one of the things that kept me that like had that review that I had

00:36:34   I kept it in the draft folder for weeks longer than I had originally anticipated is this whole angle of it being a

00:36:42   machine and a technology that I

00:36:46   Loved and and I say that word with no hyperbole that I absolutely adore it

00:36:52   I mean, I love it it like strikes my

00:36:56   childlike wonder, nerd nerve in a way that nothing, like nothing since the original iPhone

00:37:05   has. But on the other hand, it is not the machine for me. And I it's like I couldn't

00:37:13   square that circle. Because I don't want a 15 inch laptop anymore, even though it is

00:37:21   noticeably thinner and noticeably lighter than any previous 15 inch laptop from Apple before I've

00:37:27   Really gotten used to when I'm leave the house with a computer that it's this tiny little sliver of a MacBook Air, right?

00:37:36   What is your I should know this but what is your what is your desktop setup?

00:37:40   So I'm wrestling with the same thing right now is I've got the cheese grater right here on the floor

00:37:44   And I've got the 30 inch and I've got the 27 inch next to it

00:37:48   So we've got some pixels.

00:37:49   We've got some serious pixels here.

00:37:50   My desktop setup is totally janky.

00:37:54   It's ridiculous.

00:37:56   It's an old-- it actually is a 15-inch MacBook Pro,

00:38:00   but I don't use it as a MacBook Pro.

00:38:02   It's a MacBook Pro that never leaves the desk,

00:38:05   and I don't use the built-in display on,

00:38:07   driving a 20-inch, a measly little 20-inch cinema display.

00:38:14   The MacBook Pro on my desk is so old

00:38:16   that it has the gray keyboard, not the black keyboard.

00:38:20   But what is your upgrade for that?

00:38:21   Because this is the one that I feel like--

00:38:23   Well, my upgrade-- this is it.

00:38:24   This is the thing, is that my upgrade is I

00:38:27   want it to be a Retina iMac.

00:38:30   And I don't want to buy an iMac that's not Retina.

00:38:33   And I sort of had it as a vague thought before.

00:38:36   And now that I've seen an actual Retina display,

00:38:40   it's like adamant.

00:38:41   I can't imagine buying any new Mac that's not a Retina.

00:38:45   I can't imagine it.

00:38:46   I actually left – when I left the WWDC keynote this year in June, I was very excited about

00:38:54   the Retina MacBook Pro.

00:38:56   But I also thought, well, now they've updated the Airs.

00:39:00   And my Air, my 11-inch Air, is two years old.

00:39:04   It's from 2010, and it's the last one that Apple made that doesn't have a light-up

00:39:10   keyboard.

00:39:11   If you remember in 2010, the 11 inch didn't have a light up keyboard and the 13 inch did.

00:39:17   And then they came out with a 2011 update that was a real nice update.

00:39:21   And I skipped because I just bought the previous generation.

00:39:23   And now I felt like leaving the keynote, I thought, well, now it's two generations after

00:39:27   mine.

00:39:28   The thing only costs 1000 bucks.

00:39:33   I'm sure I can, you know, find someone else to take this two year old one.

00:39:37   I'll get it.

00:39:38   I left the keynote excited about the Retina MacBook Pro,

00:39:41   but thinking, hey, I should quick jump on apple.com

00:39:43   and pre-order a brand new 11-inch Air to replace this one.

00:39:48   I really, I honestly was thinking maybe, you know,

00:39:50   I would quick pre-order one immediately.

00:39:53   Sight unseen, just quick pre-order one.

00:39:55   And I didn't, I waited, and then the longer I used

00:39:58   the Retina 15-inch MacBook Pro that Apple loaned me

00:40:01   as a review unit, and now I can't bring myself to do it.

00:40:05   I cannot spend money on a machine

00:40:07   it's not doesn't have a retina display so you're gonna do the iMac if and when

00:40:12   it ever comes out as your desktop that's gonna be your desktop machine that's

00:40:15   what I'm my in theory what I would love to do is get a retina right if if though

00:40:22   if Apple were to ship cinema displays with retina just retina right quality

00:40:29   then I would buy one of those and I don't know I guess get a Mac Pro or Mac

00:40:34   or something to drive it.

00:40:36   Yeah, I think that's the move.

00:40:38   Because I feel like I'm wondering if I'm going to go to a completely mobile solution,

00:40:41   but I have the same quandary, which is I fly a lot,

00:40:45   and the only thing to take on a plane is an air.

00:40:48   There's just no doubt in my mind that it's easy,

00:40:51   it just slides in the chair in front of me,

00:40:54   it's light, it's the right size.

00:40:57   And when you're in one of those airports that has like 122,

00:41:02   No, they're not called terminals like what are they called gates like 120 and you like all right you get through security

00:41:09   And you're like in an unfamiliar Airport, and you're like all right. I've got gate

00:41:12   87 where am I and you look up and it says gate 2 right you're like oh

00:41:17   Christ

00:41:19   You get when you get to gate 87 if you're now in the era of the MacBook Air

00:41:24   You don't feel like like your one shoulder hurts and your other one doesn't right exactly

00:41:29   used to. It used to be like, now I feel like I'm doing manual labor here. I feel like one

00:41:34   of my shoulders is ready to fall off. It is addictive, the lightweight.

00:41:45   I guess if you're in first class, you could even set up an iMac up there. But in a regular

00:41:51   coach seat, it is an enormous advantage to have a MacBook Air.

00:41:57   Well, even in first class, not that I'd do it a lot, but it's still-- for me, it's

00:42:01   a nice trade-off between enough screen real estate, moving it around, but also just a

00:42:08   perfect-sized keyboard.

00:42:10   The smaller keyboard-- I know there's a lot of folks that like that really, really small

00:42:13   form factor-- it drives me a little bit crazy.

00:42:16   So it's the perfect size for me on the travel.

00:42:20   In theory, two years from now, I assume that this will be no problem and I'll have it all.

00:42:32   I'll have a retina, iMac, and a desk in my office, and a retina 11-inch MacBook Air that

00:42:39   I take with me everywhere else.

00:42:40   Do you?

00:42:41   Is it multiple monitors?

00:42:43   No, one monitor.

00:42:45   The multiple monitor thing.

00:42:47   I had it years ago, last time I had a real office job when I worked at Barebone Software,

00:42:53   I had multiple monitors.

00:42:55   I did appreciate it.

00:42:57   I know exactly what people are talking about.

00:43:02   But it doesn't really work for me.

00:43:05   Do you do the whole expose, whatever, I forget what it's called this year, do you do multiple

00:43:10   virtual desktops?

00:43:12   Sometimes.

00:43:14   Especially like if I'm like when I'm writing a big article is out the spaces right right and I'll put

00:43:20   I'll have everything in space. Everything is space one except space two is

00:43:25   Only the the the BB edit document I'm typing in and the Safari windows that are

00:43:32   Specifically opened for that article right that I've got like as research and then I can say space two is is

00:43:41   the stuff I'm working on for the article.

00:43:43   But it's funny though, because like--

00:43:46   and I've noticed this the last two days,

00:43:48   because the last two days I've spent writing these articles--

00:43:51   is that I'll start out and it seems perfect,

00:43:54   where space two only has two windows, a BB Edit document

00:43:59   and one Safari window with two tabs.

00:44:02   But by the time I'm done, I've got like seven Safari windows,

00:44:06   each with four tabs open over there,

00:44:08   which is as many Safari windows as the front.

00:44:10   and the whole thing is just as big a jumble as my space number one.

00:44:14   Right. But it is a partitioning way. I do the same thing.

00:44:18   It's what am I focusing on and where am I doing research. I have another one which is

00:44:22   basically distractions. So if I'm taking that mental break, it's that window that has

00:44:26   Twitter in it and whatever other things are zipping by my desktop.

00:44:30   So one of the reasons

00:44:34   I asked you about the retina display is

00:44:38   that like, one of the ways that you and I are very much alike

00:44:41   is a relentless pursuit of perfection

00:44:46   and to an obsessively detailed degree.

00:44:54   - Correct.

00:44:55   - And the retina display enables that.

00:45:00   - Right.

00:45:00   - Right, like I mean you've at least,

00:45:02   you've like loaded up your website in a retina display.

00:45:05   - Oh no, I had this, I actually was looking at your site.

00:45:08   One point, this is before the Retina MacBook came out,

00:45:12   was I had to redo my logo, right?

00:45:14   'Cause I did my logo years ago,

00:45:17   and I suddenly looked at it.

00:45:18   I was on the iPad, the iPad 2,

00:45:20   and I was like, what the hell happened?

00:45:21   (laughs)

00:45:23   Suddenly all of those jaggies and all of that,

00:45:25   like that stuff that's lost on their regular displays

00:45:29   was suddenly just in my face, and it looked awful.

00:45:31   And I'm like, have you been looking at this

00:45:33   for the last 10 years, right?

00:45:35   So that was my first moment of like, oh, the game is different regarding how we're actually

00:45:40   going to have to have our images and what our fonts are going to look like.

00:45:44   I noticed, and I noticed this last week because there was a day, and I hope to write about

00:45:49   it soon, and it took me, as always with anything like this, way more time than I thought it

00:45:57   would.

00:45:58   I upgraded the favicon on Daring Fireball last week.

00:46:04   for a couple of reasons, but it took me way longer than I thought it would.

00:46:08   But I upgraded it, mainly

00:46:12   to retnify it. And I did notice

00:46:16   and as I was doing it, I went around the web and tried to see, well, who else has a retina quality

00:46:20   favicon? And RANS has a retina favicon.

00:46:24   I noticed that. And it is one of those things where when you're

00:46:28   surfing, you look at your website on the Retina MacBook Pro, and if you don't,

00:46:32   You look up at the URL and you see that little tiny FAB icon, but it's not retina.

00:46:38   It's like, "Oh, that's not going to work."

00:46:40   It just smudged, right?

00:46:41   Yeah, it does. Yeah, exactly. It looks like somebody faxed it to you.

00:46:45   And it's like, immediately, it was like pain in my heart. It was like, "This hurts me.

00:46:55   It hurts me as though I'm listening to somebody insult my wife or my child."

00:47:02   It hurts me because my beloved Daring Fireball favicon now looks like--

00:47:08   Complete shit.

00:47:09   Looks like a piece of paper, a wet piece of paper I just peeled off my shoe.

00:47:13   I've got to fix this.

00:47:16   But there aren't a lot of resources online for how to make a retina quality favicon.

00:47:23   It's-- and you Google it, and it's a lot of SEO crap.

00:47:29   Like, the SEO crap for how to make a favicon dominates the search results.

00:47:34   So that's why I want to write about it.

00:47:36   But I knew that you got it.

00:47:38   But the other thing, too, and I wrote about this in my review, is that--

00:47:43   and this is where you're way ahead of me.

00:47:45   You're way ahead of me.

00:47:47   And I'm way behind the times, is that on the Retina MacBook Pro--

00:47:54   and I think it's true for the iPhone and the iPad, too.

00:47:57   too, but I feel like it is even more prominent on the retina

00:48:02   Mac.

00:48:03   It's so much like print quality output

00:48:12   that you want real fonts, not screen fonts.

00:48:16   And you've switched--

00:48:17   I don't know when, but you've switched this year

00:48:19   to Ideal Sans from Hoffler and Fur Jones.

00:48:28   It was around the time of the 10-year anniversary

00:48:30   is when I switched.

00:48:31   And to your credit, the idea to even consider this idea

00:48:34   was from you.

00:48:36   I was flying, and I landed, and I got this rabid text or tweet

00:48:42   or something from you where you're like, oh my god,

00:48:44   Ideal Sans.

00:48:48   So the inception is from you, although I have turned it on.

00:48:53   And it's beautiful.

00:48:54   It's gorgeous.

00:48:56   Literally, to your point, when I first loaded it up on the iPad

00:49:00   too with all ideal sounds and I have Sentinel as a headline,

00:49:05   I feel like the world is a better place.

00:49:09   There's order, and there's beauty,

00:49:11   and I can't describe the feeling of actually seeing

00:49:14   great typography on the blog.

00:49:17   I'd only really upgrade.

00:49:19   I did a couple other nips and tucks.

00:49:21   But I only upgraded the typography.

00:49:23   The whole layout is the same.

00:49:25   But it feels to me, whenever I see it,

00:49:27   it feels like a brand new site.

00:49:30   It looks great on a non-retina display.

00:49:32   It's a great font.

00:49:33   And one of the reasons-- and I think it's super interesting.

00:49:37   The HNFJ web fonts, to my knowledge,

00:49:43   are only in-- it's not publicly available.

00:49:45   The only three sites I know of that have the HNFJ web fonts are you, Jason Kotke, and Barack

00:50:00   Obama.

00:50:01   Like, that's pretty good company.

00:50:04   You, Kotke, and Obama.

00:50:06   And one of the reasons why is that it is -- and you talk to these guys, you talk to anybody

00:50:13   who's working on distributing web fonts.

00:50:15   And it is really hard.

00:50:20   It's super simple.

00:50:21   It's as simple as linking to anything

00:50:23   like an image or a style sheet or anything on the web

00:50:26   to get one working, get web fonts working technically.

00:50:30   And it is incredibly hard and painstaking.

00:50:36   And glyph by glyph requires all of this hand-drawn work

00:50:42   to get them to look good everywhere.

00:50:46   Meaning on the Mac, on iOS, on Android, and--

00:50:54   what's the other-- the OS for PCs from Microsoft?

00:51:01   I totally don't know.

00:51:03   I've been ignoring Microsoft for so long.

00:51:05   Do you remember that?

00:51:08   Oh, Christ almighty.

00:51:09   It's on like 90% of all computers in the world.

00:51:14   Anyway, whatever it is called, it's really, really hard

00:51:17   to get web fonts that look good there, because all

00:51:20   these different platforms use different anti-aliasing

00:51:23   algorithms.

00:51:24   They have different software that actually renders

00:51:26   the outlines into bitmaps that are pushed into pixels

00:51:30   on screen.

00:51:31   And these guys-- you think guys like me and you sweat

00:51:36   the details on font.

00:51:38   It's like the guys who actually make fonts, it's amazing

00:51:42   that they can even get out of bed,

00:51:44   because they really, really sweat the details.

00:51:48   And they notice things like when one side of uppercase M

00:51:54   is half a pixel thicker than the other side when

00:51:57   it's rendered on this browser on this platform.

00:52:02   And that's what's taking so long for all these guys

00:52:04   to get these fonts out as web fonts.

00:52:07   And the other thing for HF&J in particular, I believe,

00:52:10   is that they're also just super concerned with making sure

00:52:15   that it's fairly licensed.

00:52:17   They don't want to get fonts out in the open.

00:52:19   So they're really obsessive about that,

00:52:21   which I think is absolutely the right thing to do.

00:52:23   It's so easy to steal a font, if you will.

00:52:27   And their work is, as you just described,

00:52:31   it's painstaking work.

00:52:32   No one-- everyone looks at fonts.

00:52:33   They do not see any of the work involved

00:52:35   in actually pulling it off.

00:52:37   Anyone who stares at a set of letters and goes,

00:52:40   that question mark is like a work of art in itself,

00:52:44   times that by the entire character set.

00:52:46   You're talking about a massive amount of work.

00:52:48   And I think one of the things they're tweaking and why it's

00:52:51   not-- and this is my opinion, it's not out there to more

00:52:53   people-- is they're just making sure that it's rock solid

00:52:56   in terms of protecting their hard work.

00:53:00   Right.

00:53:01   Absolutely.

00:53:03   But really, the bottom line, though,

00:53:05   is that this transition from only using the fonts that

00:53:09   are available by default with the-- what do they call them?

00:53:12   The web save fonts.

00:53:14   They're used-- there's this list of 15 fonts that

00:53:17   are available on Mac and Windows and Android or whatever.

00:53:22   I guess Android doesn't have any fonts.

00:53:23   Android's got like serif and sans serif or something like that.

00:53:26   It's terrible.

00:53:27   But there's the web save fonts that everybody's

00:53:29   known from 1997 onward.

00:53:32   And it's like-- bottom line is you're either picking Times,

00:53:36   Verdana, or Georgia for fonts.

00:53:38   And now with the web font thing, you can pick any of these fonts.

00:53:42   And there's Typekit, which has a whole bunch of fonts

00:53:44   from Adobe and other great indie browsers, or type vendors.

00:53:52   And they look good anywhere.

00:53:53   And it's because they've spent an awful lot of time

00:53:56   to make sure they look good.

00:53:57   But my god, do they look good.

00:53:59   They look great.

00:53:59   On the retina display.

00:54:01   There's only one complaint, and I don't know if you have a huge amount of people that are

00:54:06   listening to us at this point, but there's a load issue, and it's not just HF&J's solution.

00:54:11   I've seen it elsewhere.

00:54:12   Maybe it's a browser issue, but there's a double load issue.

00:54:16   When you first load the page, you first get a render, and then there's a second render.

00:54:20   It doesn't realign, it doesn't re-flow the page, but when the fonts are actually loading.

00:54:25   So there's this eighths of a second, half of a second,

00:54:28   where you get the correct geometry with all

00:54:33   the bulleted-- I mean, the underlines and whatnot.

00:54:35   And the typefaces haven't loaded yet.

00:54:37   And then it shows up.

00:54:38   The faster the machine, the slower-- I mean,

00:54:40   the faster the machine, the less of a lag there.

00:54:43   That's the only thing that bugs me,

00:54:45   is there's like this second or so where you're still loading.

00:54:48   It doesn't come in as one render of the page.

00:54:53   Minor thing.

00:54:53   You're going to notice.

00:54:54   You're going to be turning this on at some point,

00:54:56   and it's going to be 4 in the morning,

00:54:58   and you're going to be just about done.

00:55:00   And you're going to be going to an iPad 2,

00:55:01   and you're going to reload.

00:55:02   And you're going to be like, oh, what's that load thing?

00:55:04   And I'm just telling you now, I'm saving you some time.

00:55:07   I don't think it's a HF and J thing.

00:55:10   I think it's a browser issue.

00:55:12   Right.

00:55:13   No.

00:55:14   And there's a phrase for it.

00:55:15   It's like a lingo.

00:55:16   It's like the flash before something.

00:55:20   I don't know.

00:55:21   Something there, yeah.

00:55:22   So ridiculously early in the morning for me.

00:55:24   I cannot think of it.

00:55:24   But I know that I've seen it and that other people have

00:55:28   commented on it.

00:55:29   And I also know that there's a big deal,

00:55:33   in terms of the latency, switching from using

00:55:36   built-in fonts to web fonts, that it really

00:55:39   affects people who are on high latency connections.

00:55:42   Like, for example, all of our friends down in New Zealand,

00:55:47   which is isolated and sort of has a crappy connection

00:55:52   to the rest of the entire internet.

00:55:56   I know that depending on how you're serving your web fonts

00:56:01   and where you're getting them from,

00:56:03   that delay between the initial page render

00:56:06   and when the actual font kicks in is even worse down there.

00:56:09   I haven't had one complaint from folks about it.

00:56:12   There was someone running some bizarre Ubuntu blah, blah,

00:56:16   blah that had a complaint.

00:56:18   But everyone else-- I was worried

00:56:20   there was some part of the demographic that was going to, some technology, some browser

00:56:24   that I wasn't going to be able to support. I had one complaint and it was completely

00:56:28   edge case Linux distribution, which was satisfying for me. I felt like I was a little bit ahead

00:56:34   of the times, but it's not. It's not at all. We've already blown past the hour mark and

00:56:39   I promised a bunch of people that this show would only be an hour long. But we're going

00:56:42   to, we're going to head towards the finish. We're going to head towards the finish. Let

00:56:46   me do the second sponsor read and then, and then we've got a couple of other things I

00:56:49   I want to cover before I let you go. And our second sponsor, this to me is Serendipity.

00:56:57   This is a delightful one-two punch of sponsors. Our second sponsor is PhotoDelight. It's an

00:57:07   app for the iPad from our friends at Global Delight. Now PhotoDelight is a photo colorizing

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00:57:35   Now Photo Delight lets you create really cool pictures out of ordinary snapshots, and it's

00:57:43   It's got this really, they call it smart touch that lets you adjust your photo with, you

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00:58:03   photo.

00:58:04   It detects the color you want to highlight by your touch on that part of the image.

00:58:08   It continues to reveal only that color in the image wherever else you move your finger

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00:58:37   want to highlight to really, really make it super vibrant and more or less more cowbell.

00:58:44   It's one of my--the wife and I just went to Yellowstone with the kids. And literally

00:58:52   80% of the time on the iPhone is sitting there between the two of us battling on Instagram.

00:59:00   And seriously--and she's better than I am, by the way, just so everyone knows. But I've

00:59:07   I've got a set of photo editing apps that we have.

00:59:11   And the goal for each of us is what combination of these apps

00:59:14   and their set of features can we use

00:59:17   to outdo the other person?

00:59:19   We're sitting in bed at night just doing photo processing.

00:59:22   Who would have imagined?

00:59:24   I've got an entire page--

00:59:27   I don't know what you call them-- home screen page

00:59:29   on my iPhone that is just for diddling a picture that

00:59:32   is going to go to Instagram.

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00:59:43   Gorgeous UI for the retina display.

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00:59:55   ensuring that the parts of the photo you touch

00:59:59   are the parts that get highlighted.

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01:00:05   I mean, I don't even know where you're going to get 20 megapixel pictures onto the iPad,

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01:00:12   Brush settings, accidental stroke correction options, pinch pan gestures for finer adjustments.

01:00:19   It's integrated with iOS's Twitter and Facebook sharing.

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01:00:50   you can find out more about the contest there and buy it, buy the app for the iPad. And

01:00:57   I recommend it completely. It's a great, great app.

01:01:01   You know, your wife's Instagram account, to me,

01:01:05   is almost like a fake Instagram account,

01:01:07   where it's like the account that Instagram would show

01:01:12   in the app store screenshots

01:01:17   for what do you do with Instagram,

01:01:19   because it's all of these scenic landscapes.

01:01:24   I don't know what she does.

01:01:28   I don't know if she's got her own personal jet airplane,

01:01:32   but all of a sudden, it's like, here's

01:01:34   one where it's like trees and woods and mountains.

01:01:37   I'm like, oh, I think that's where the Lops live, right?

01:01:41   And then the next one is like a desert landscape,

01:01:43   and the next one's like the ocean, and the next one is--

01:01:49   they're all over the place.

01:01:50   I don't know how it happens.

01:01:52   I don't know how she's getting that.

01:01:54   We live in the Santa Cruz mountains in California,

01:01:56   There's lots of--the coast is--look out the window right now, I can see the Pacific Ocean,

01:02:00   we're in the middle of a redwood forest, there's lots of diversity.

01:02:05   But the larger point is she's really fucking good at this, which is incredibly annoying

01:02:09   to me because we obviously like, "How many likes did you get?"

01:02:13   And she's got far less than me, but ratio-wise, just kicking my ass.

01:02:17   I mean, kicking my ass.

01:02:19   And she's all--and I think--she's not going to hear this because I'm not going to tell

01:02:25   Tell her about that. I'm doing the show by the way because she can't hear this is I think what she's good at is

01:02:30   And it's it's an important thing is if you go look at the rands the rands instagrams

01:02:34   I go for like high contrast and deep colors

01:02:38   I think my composition is okay

01:02:40   But she goes with subtle right and it's and it's I don't do so because I feel like I need to like turn up the

01:02:46   Knobs and whatever direction as loud as she's very good at that like finding a great

01:02:50   Got a great look and then this subtle change as opposed to like throwing down the Gotham or whatever, you know intense

01:02:57   You know saturation that Rans is going for I I think that you and I are more or less on par

01:03:02   Photography quality wise where you and I can take some pictures are like wow

01:03:07   That's pretty cool for a picture you took with your phone, right? Your wife though is that like she takes picture

01:03:12   I'm like, come on you took that with your iPhone. You gotta be kidding. You've got to be kidding me. I

01:03:18   I don't think I could get a picture like that out of my $2,500 Canon 5D.

01:03:25   We're not telling her this. Everyone is just not. She can't hear this because I'm screwed.

01:03:29   But she does. And you can vouch for that, that she takes those pictures with the iPhone?

01:03:32   Oh, it's all iPhone. She doesn't have any other camera.

01:03:34   Because I do. In my heart, I do think she cheats.

01:03:37   I think there's one cheat. She took a picture of one of the kids at one point.

01:03:41   I'm saying, though, that her pictures every single day look like that.

01:03:44   look like.

01:03:45   All iPhones, swear to God.

01:03:46   What else you want to talk about, dude?

01:03:52   You know what I want to talk about is a little bit

01:03:55   on the web fonts.

01:03:56   Are you surprised that Apple isn't using web fonts yet?

01:04:03   On the website?

01:04:04   Yeah.

01:04:05   I'm loading it just to make sure that they didn't do it

01:04:08   this morning, because that would be funny.

01:04:12   You know, I used to work at Apple.

01:04:15   It's--

01:04:17   It's just about to ask you if we can mention that.

01:04:19   You always have to ask.

01:04:20   You have to double check with anybody.

01:04:22   Yeah.

01:04:24   Yeah.

01:04:25   The website--

01:04:28   It's got to happen.

01:04:29   It's got to happen eventually.

01:04:30   And the same is true for me, though.

01:04:32   Maybe it's just as surprising that I'm not using web fonts

01:04:35   yet.

01:04:35   The thing about the website for me, even when we were there,

01:04:38   is it's like-- and my friends run it,

01:04:42   so I can rip on them because they're my friends.

01:04:44   But it's a beautiful, beautiful site.

01:04:47   It's a gorgeous site.

01:04:49   But if you go look at it, this isn't an application.

01:04:52   If you go view the source, the amount of technology

01:04:55   behind the site is pretty low.

01:04:56   It's like, where do you log into apple.com?

01:04:58   And the answer is, you don't.

01:04:59   I mean, you can go to the store and that's

01:05:00   an application and whatnot.

01:05:02   But it's always felt beautiful to me.

01:05:05   But technology-wise-- and I know who's

01:05:08   going to yell at me about this-- they

01:05:11   haven't been leaning forward in terms of the technology.

01:05:17   It's a static-- it's not a static site,

01:05:19   but it is a static site.

01:05:20   And so it doesn't surprise me.

01:05:22   And I know people are going to yell at me about that.

01:05:24   I would expect it at some point here.

01:05:25   But then thinking about Apple, you have to wonder,

01:05:28   it's like there's probably some reason they haven't done it.

01:05:31   Like is it because web fonts are big,

01:05:33   and that would be a huge load, or whatever.

01:05:36   But I'm not surprised.

01:05:37   It's not like I'm sitting here going, oh my god,

01:05:39   they haven't done it.

01:05:40   Well, the things I can think of are that A, clearly everybody knows the homepage of any

01:05:47   site is the most important.

01:05:49   And I think the homepage, the actual Apple.com homepage is way more important to Apple than

01:05:54   it is to most people.

01:05:56   In the way that the first impression of anything is more important with Apple.

01:06:02   Their stores are nice.

01:06:04   And if you just go into the store and crawl into the corner and just examine where the

01:06:09   floor hits the wall and look for dust bunnies, you're not going to find it. It all looks

01:06:14   new and the actual joint where the floor hits the wall just looks as new. Maybe it's a 10-year-old

01:06:22   Apple store in your local mall and it still looks brand new. But the thing that's most

01:06:26   important isn't the detail. It's not like the actual wow. If you actually look at the

01:06:30   corner of this table where all the iPhones are set up, it still looks like a brand new

01:06:34   table right on the corner, nothing's worn off, no scuff marks, blah, blah, blah.

01:06:39   But the thing that's most important is what it looks like from the outside when you first

01:06:43   step in.

01:06:44   Right.

01:06:45   Right?

01:06:46   It's that first impression and then everything goes from there.

01:06:47   Well, the same is true for the homepage of a website.

01:06:50   And the homepage of Apple.com, it's all images.

01:06:55   There is no text because it's not rendered in web browser fonts.

01:07:03   It's all rendered in the Apple corporate myriad typeface.

01:07:07   But the way they do it is by everything is an image.

01:07:10   I was looking at, as you were talking, I was doing that, and that's one of the reasons

01:07:14   that they don't have to go to web fonts.

01:07:15   All of these headlines are actually images.

01:07:18   Right.

01:07:19   And it's all retinified.

01:07:20   And there's a WWDC session where they explain how they do it, their way of serving retina

01:07:28   images to retina quality displays.

01:07:30   I sorry I gotta interrupt you here the

01:07:33   Scorsese iPhone ad what did you did you love it? Did you hate it? I know you're a fan

01:07:39   So I love Scorsese and I'm not a hater on these celebrity Siri ads, but I do feel though

01:07:46   Here's the thing about the Scorsese one that I feel I

01:07:49   They're all a little cheaty because they all make Siri look a lot faster than Siri actually is sure and the thing with Scorsese is Scorsese

01:07:58   infamously is a super fast talker and thinker

01:08:02   Like he's a mile-a-minute talker. That's that's his thing. I mean, that's Martin Scorsese and

01:08:09   In addition to the fact that even if he were like

01:08:15   in like the the like a direct Ethernet connection to the backbone of

01:08:23   the best backbone of the ethernet in Urbana, Illinois,

01:08:27   is not going to get this sort of response time from Siri.

01:08:29   He's in midtown Manhattan.

01:08:32   And you go to New York enough.

01:08:34   I mean, you know, I don't care if you're on Verizon.

01:08:37   I don't care if you're on AT&T. I don't care what you're on.

01:08:39   The 3G service in midtown Manhattan, midday, is sketchy.

01:08:45   Like, it couldn't be more unrealistic in terms of what

01:08:50   it's actually like interacting with Siri.

01:08:51   That's the thing that gets me about the ad.

01:08:53   Right.

01:08:54   It's a good ad.

01:08:54   I thought it was clever.

01:08:56   It was one of my--

01:08:57   It's a good ad in terms of what Siri could be or will be

01:08:59   eventually.

01:09:00   But in terms of what you would actually get from Siri

01:09:04   while you're in a cab in midtown,

01:09:06   it's like that commercial in real time

01:09:09   would take 90 minutes.

01:09:11   It would be like a feature film.

01:09:14   And also the fast talking, you'd be getting those-- I'm sorry,

01:09:18   Martin.

01:09:18   I don't know what you mean by-- right,

01:09:20   because he's talking so fast.

01:09:21   Right.

01:09:23   I thought it was kind of interesting that they gave him a white iPhone,

01:09:25   because I think it's very clear that's because the cab is a dark atmosphere

01:09:29   and he's sort of wearing a dark thing. And it actually-- I think Martin Scorsese,

01:09:33   if he has an iPhone, if he really carries one, he's a black iPhone guy.

01:09:36   Totally agree with that. Are you black or white right now?

01:09:39   Oh, you know. Come on.

01:09:40   Oh, yeah.

01:09:41   I can't believe you had to ask.

01:09:42   What are you, though? You, I'm not sure about. You might be a white iPhone.

01:09:48   am a white iPhone and I think I got inceptioned on that too because I had black twice and

01:09:54   And I'm like a new phone

01:09:57   I'm gonna get the white

01:09:58   But then I went back and I think these ads are all changed out after

01:10:02   after they announced the most recent iPhone and I went back and look at the advertising and I'm pretty sure that

01:10:07   The the white was more prominently featured and now I'm just sitting there whether I've gotten figuring out whether I got

01:10:15   Manipulate it or not into getting away. I mean, I just wanted a change of scenery and the white is beautiful, by the way, but

01:10:20   I'm feeling manipulated because I think they really pushed it and I think that is one of the reasons that I actually

01:10:26   Decided to make the switch on the most recent one, but I'm going back to black

01:10:30   It's that's that's the only one for me. This is an old story

01:10:33   I'm sure I've told this before like in a long ago episode of the talk show and I've probably

01:10:38   Told it to you personally because you've hung out with me and my wife. Yeah, but it's it's a good story

01:10:44   is that when the iPhone 4 first was announced,

01:10:49   and my wife and I were both on,

01:10:53   hey, I get one every year,

01:10:54   she was definitely on pace for a new phone,

01:10:56   and I said, "You should get the white one."

01:10:59   I've seen it, 'cause I was at the press event

01:11:01   on the WWDC where they announced it,

01:11:03   and I said, "It's beautiful.

01:11:05   "I don't want it, I'm gonna get black.

01:11:06   "I get black everything.

01:11:08   "If anything is available in black,

01:11:09   "I just get it in black."

01:11:10   Anything, cars, phones.

01:11:13   If there's a black option, I just get black.

01:11:15   That way I don't have to think about it.

01:11:17   And I said, but trust me, this thing is beautiful.

01:11:20   The white one is great.

01:11:21   And then we're gonna solve this problem

01:11:23   we've had since the iPhone came out,

01:11:25   where there's two phones on the kitchen counter

01:11:28   and they're identical.

01:11:29   And you gotta turn it on to see whose is whose.

01:11:32   And you're never gonna accidentally

01:11:34   pick up each other's phone.

01:11:36   And she said, okay, I'm in.

01:11:39   And then of course, the white iPhone

01:11:42   infamously took Apple like 10 months to ship and

01:11:44   By the time it actually came out

01:11:47   You know there was the rumor was that there was a new iPhone coming

01:11:52   And then that actually turned out to be false because it didn't come out the iPhone 4s didn't come out until October

01:11:58   But it was a real source of of marital stress in in my life because I got blamed for this

01:12:04   I'm sure she didn't bring that up and doesn't continue to bring that up like every week hour

01:12:11   So she ended up not getting a new phone until the 4s came out, but she did get white and in fact though

01:12:16   She does love it and loves the white but still I get blamed for like the lost 18 months of her having to use

01:12:22   janky old 3gs

01:12:25   But yeah, it's I think the white is great but

01:12:30   It's funny. It is funny too though to think that it took them

01:12:34   It's like one of those things are like at the time it was amusing and we thought about it and then we've sort of like

01:12:40   forgotten it but like mighty Apple couldn't ship a white iPhone yeah I

01:12:46   still think that's one of the most interesting things to happen in the last

01:12:49   ten years like this company that we sort of think can do no wrong and as you know

01:12:55   infinitely powerful couldn't ship a white iPhone that they were apparently

01:13:01   convinced that they could you know we're ready to ship two weeks later in June to

01:13:07   I wasn't there when it was happening, but it feels right to me.

01:13:13   The rumors were that when it got hot, you'd start to see discoloration.

01:13:18   To me, that feels very Apple.

01:13:20   They went into the shake-and-bake period, or whatever that last month or so of qualification,

01:13:25   and they found that there was a slight discoloration, or whatever it was.

01:13:29   This is actually very Apple, which is like, "We don't ship crap."

01:13:34   Three months if you're seeing a little discoloration where it's hot. It's like that is you know

01:13:39   Every single phone is going to be returned at that point. So this is

01:13:42   the other the other rumor and maybe it was like a little bit of column a and a little bit of column B I thought the

01:13:48   other rumor was that the

01:13:50   There was like light leakage that the like right the camera

01:13:55   Right, so like photos didn't look as good because there was light coming in to hit the sensor

01:14:01   That wasn't coming in from the lens or something like that

01:14:03   Yeah, but whatever, you know, so my guess is maybe it was like all of the above right

01:14:07   there was discoloration and there was some light leakage and that they because there's

01:14:11   Like if you look at the schematics the white one has like a different grill right on the camera

01:14:18   But you I'm sure you noticed this because you've got friends, you know

01:14:22   you you did work there and you've got friends who were there is that the one of the most interesting things is what

01:14:26   and I noticed this when I was there for the

01:14:32   Antennagate event right when they had the that hey, hey, you better come out here

01:14:36   We got to deal with this antenna gate situation and that was at a special press event on campus hadn't been there in a while

01:14:42   So it was like August I think

01:14:44   2010 like two months after the

01:14:48   iPhone 4 it shipped and two months where the only one that had shipped was the black one and you go to the campus and

01:14:54   You see employees walking around and half of them had white iPhones, right?

01:14:58   And it was like you're in this bizarro universe on campus where the white iPhone existed

01:15:03   And it was like whoa

01:15:07   The only other place that I had seen one was on the the table right at

01:15:13   WWDC where they had the one set up for the press but you went to the campus and employees had them

01:15:18   It's like this la-la land where you know stuff that isn't available to the public people just walk around with them wonderland

01:15:26   One of the things I speculated on in my piece earlier this week on the retina MacBook

01:15:30   Pro is what font Apple might use as the system font for Mac OS X if they switch from Lucida

01:15:39   Lucida Grande Grande Grande Grande koodle could koodle Grande

01:15:44   You said a grand grand. I don't know

01:15:47   I immediately thought that I should ask you since I knew you were gonna be issued you've you've you've a feel for that even a

01:15:52   Do you have an opinion on that?

01:15:57   I thought about it.

01:15:58   I was thinking about it last night.

01:16:00   I don't know what it is, but the thing about it is,

01:16:01   I think it's going to be some Helvetica variant,

01:16:04   but my opinion is it's more the intent of what it's there.

01:16:07   It needs to be very readable and just very ignorable,

01:16:12   if you will.

01:16:16   It just has to be really, you don't even want to see it.

01:16:17   It has to be something which there is an elegance to it.

01:16:17   is a high readability to it.

01:16:20   It has a lot of the things that Characteristic Lucinda does.

01:16:23   But it's zero flash, right?

01:16:26   Because this is the system font, right?

01:16:28   It's going to be something which is just-- it's vanilla,

01:16:32   beautifully vanilla.

01:16:33   What do you think?

01:16:36   My guess is that it's going to be Helvetic.

01:16:38   They're going to switch to Helvetic.

01:16:40   And I do think-- I actually do think--

01:16:42   this is an article that is in my drafts folder.

01:16:47   and it's probably only two sentences and a bunch of gibberish words, but I've been thinking about

01:16:51   for a while, is that I do think that one of the most interesting design decisions Apple has ever

01:16:58   made in 30 years of corporate history is the choice of Helvetica as the system font for iOS.

01:17:08   because Helvetica is sort of the most obvious font that they could have chosen.

01:17:18   >> Right.

01:17:19   >> It is a great face. It is, you know, it's super famous. It's maybe, you know,

01:17:23   it's the font that actually has a documentary named after it. It's a font that people who

01:17:28   don't even really think about fonts have at least heard of, even if they can't identify it.

01:17:35   But sort of what makes Helvetica so famous is that it is so neutral.

01:17:42   Exactly.

01:17:45   It's almost the non-font. I remember when I first got a Mac, thinking... And I didn't really even

01:17:52   know... It's like before I really became even informed about typography, but I was intrigued

01:17:59   by the font menu, and that I could do a "Select All," go to the font menu, and make what I

01:18:05   just wrote look different.

01:18:08   And I remember thinking that...or actually not even thinking that it was sort of a "Of

01:18:16   course, it has to be this way," that of course, in any word processing document, when you

01:18:22   make Command-N and make a new document and just start typing, of course it's going to

01:18:27   to be 12 point Helvetica. Because that's the font that you haven't chosen a font. That's

01:18:34   the, okay, you're just starting and this is neutral and we're not going to assume that

01:18:39   this is supposed to feel friendly, we're not going to assume it's supposed to feel formal.

01:18:43   It's just neutral.

01:18:45   It's just the words. And it's Helvetica. Nobody ever says, it's a great font, but nobody ever

01:18:50   says, "Wow, that is an interesting choice for a font. Like, you are a brilliant designer

01:18:57   for having chosen Helvetica." But that's what they chose for iOS. And the other thing about

01:19:04   choosing that for iOS is that Helvetica is not free. I think Linotype owns the license

01:19:11   to it. But it's certainly widely available in any other company. And in fact, you can

01:19:17   see there's a whole bunch of Android phones that it doesn't ship as part of the default

01:19:21   Android distribution, but the add-ons from companies like Samsung and HTC inevitably

01:19:28   use Helvetica for the home screen widgets, the clock and the date and time and the weather

01:19:34   and stuff like that. Because it's Helvetica. Everybody can have access to Helvetica.

01:19:40   But it is. I mean, it's the point about a really good face is, I mean, unless you're

01:19:45   doing something comic-sansy and horrific like that is. The point is it needs to kind of

01:19:49   stay out of the way. And when I go look at the web fonts on RANS and Repose right now,

01:19:54   they still give me joy, but at the end of the day, I want them to get out of the way

01:19:57   so that people can get to the message. So there's that balance you want to strike of

01:20:03   highly readable, but also just get the hell out of the way so I can get to the words.

01:20:09   The knock against Helvetica is that,

01:20:12   or one of the knocks against it,

01:20:14   especially for use as a system font,

01:20:16   is that it's a font that not only is it

01:20:21   hard to distinguish certain similar characters,

01:20:26   in some cases it's actually impossible

01:20:28   without the surrounding context.

01:20:30   And the best famous example is capital I,

01:20:35   lowercase l, and the numeral one.

01:20:38   - Right.

01:20:39   Now the one in Helvetica is a little different, but like a capital I and a lowercase L, the

01:20:47   only difference between them and Helvetica is that the capital I is ever so slightly

01:20:51   taller.

01:20:52   But they're just straight bars with no serif or glyph or bendy thing at all.

01:20:57   And a lot of people feel very strongly that like a system font should have some kind of

01:21:05   distinguishing characteristic for all of those characters, that the L should have a little

01:21:09   bendy, the lowercase L should have a little bendy thing at the bottom, the uppercase I

01:21:14   should have the bars, the crossbars.

01:21:18   And Helvetica has none of those things.

01:21:22   But God, I love Helvetica.

01:21:25   I wouldn't mind at all if the Mac OS X switched to Helvetica.

01:21:27   It's going to happen at some point, something, I don't know what it is.

01:21:31   But it's one of those things where the retina makes all the difference in the world, where

01:21:36   on pre-retina displays, it's not that Helvetica looks bad, but it doesn't look great.

01:21:40   Yeah. Right? Whereas on a retina display, it's like, oh yeah, that's, you know, that's the

01:21:44   Helvetica I love. It's my favorite thing, one of my favorite things to do on the site when I landed

01:21:49   the web fonts is to pinch and it doesn't make them huge and make the article huge. I can just

01:21:56   see word by word and just, just crisp, just gorgeous, very satisfying. It's so different.

01:22:05   It's so different.

01:22:07   And for me, and it really is, it's overdue.

01:22:12   And I don't even have a good excuse for it

01:22:14   why I haven't switched to some sort of web font

01:22:16   at Daring Fireball other than-- what's the word?

01:22:21   Laziness.

01:22:22   But the body font at Daring Fireball is Verdana at 11px.

01:22:31   And I chose that.

01:22:33   I chose that font and size in 2002 at a time when the overwhelming majority of Daring Fireball

01:22:43   readers, not just on Windows, which at the time was actually a majority of readers, but even on Mac

01:22:49   were using Mac OS 9, not Mac OS 10, and on Mac OS 9, it wasn't anti-aliased.

01:22:57   it was a pure pixel font.

01:23:00   Like, I picked that font and size at a time

01:23:03   when anti-aliasing wasn't even enabled,

01:23:06   except for the sliver of readers who were already on Mac OS X.

01:23:11   Which in 2002 was actually a really, really small number.

01:23:14   Yep.

01:23:15   And it just doesn't hold up.

01:23:21   Like, I linked to-- have you noticed, you go to Ikea?

01:23:23   You're an Ikea guy?

01:23:24   You're an Ikea fan.

01:23:25   I know can't cover but you know that you know the brand right? Oh hell yeah, and you know that they switched from

01:23:31   like their own custom version of Futura

01:23:34   great fun

01:23:37   To Verdana like their catalogs and their signage are all printed in Verdana now, you know this I'm looking at it right now

01:23:44   Yeah, and it really looks horrible. Yeah at print resolution

01:23:49   and

01:23:51   Everybody nobody nobody has a good explanation for why they did this

01:23:55   There's a convenience store/gas station chain in the greater Philadelphia area called

01:24:04   Wawa.

01:24:05   Wawa?

01:24:06   Can you spell that for me?

01:24:09   W-A-W-A.

01:24:10   Okay.

01:24:11   Everybody listening, most people listening are exactly like you, thinking, "What?

01:24:14   Wawa?"

01:24:15   And then the Philadelphia area listeners are all like, "I can't believe you had to spell

01:24:20   Wawa."

01:24:21   You know, it's a 7-Eleven-ish type thing, but with like, you know, nicer.

01:24:28   It's a lot nicer than a 7-Eleven.

01:24:32   But they use—I often gas up the car at a Wawa.

01:24:35   They use Verdana, like, on their print stuff.

01:24:39   You know how, like, when you're buying gas, there's always an ad for something?

01:24:42   Like the sandwiches they're selling inside or the Slurpees or whatever the hell they've

01:24:46   got.

01:24:47   They use Verdana.

01:24:48   I noticed when they used Verdana and I think, "My god, does that look like shit at print

01:24:54   resolution?"

01:24:55   That's what Verdana looks like to me on a retina display.

01:24:58   It just looks like you've chosen a font that is never meant to be output at this resolution

01:25:05   and now you're using it.

01:25:07   Did you ever see anybody who uses Chicago as a print font?

01:25:12   No.

01:25:13   I've seen it every once in a while.

01:25:17   You'll see a store or something that has a sign, and they pick Chicago.

01:25:20   And it looks so bad as a print font.

01:25:23   Yeah.

01:25:23   No, I haven't-- whenever I'm walking around New York City,

01:25:28   I know there's lots of people like those on Instagram.

01:25:30   It's just the font travesties that are out there.

01:25:33   It's shocking to me.

01:25:36   Or as bad as Trebuchet looks on the web, when somebody prints a sign using

01:25:41   trebuchet. Oh my god, it just kills me. It's like needles in my eye.

01:25:46   Bad fonts. That's the thing about the retina display is good fonts look so

01:25:51   good and bad fonts look so much worse. They look worse than they do before

01:25:56   retina displays. I've got one more thing.

01:26:03   And that's one more thing. That's a piece that you wrote on Rans and Repose

01:26:08   Just a few weeks ago, you wrote about Apple's thing.

01:26:15   That's my question for you.

01:26:17   Is the one more thing from a keynote, is it an Apple thing or was it a Steve thing?

01:26:24   Oh, you know, I did research into the piece and I found the YouTube video

01:26:28   that someone just amalgamated them all together.

01:26:31   And I will put that YouTube in the show notes for everybody to enjoy.

01:26:35   And it's it's it's it's an amalgamation of Steve Jobs one more things from keynotes over the last 15 years

01:26:41   But the question that you asked that I don't know the answer to is did anyone say it in a keynote?

01:26:46   Before that and I don't know he certainly shaped it though, right?

01:26:50   I mean if you go look at the video you can see you can see him

01:26:53   Go from like it's this it's this total moment of it's the showmanship of him

01:27:01   Going from like oh, it's like walking off stage, right, you know, and he's like we're all done and he turns around and goes

01:27:08   Oh, wait a minute

01:27:09   There's one more thing and that's how it really started and you've seen this too

01:27:12   but it really started with him like literally trying to convince us that he almost forgot to introduce this world-changing thing and

01:27:18   it over years it sort of refined into sort of a

01:27:22   More it wasn't that big of a surprise

01:27:26   It was just those three words that they actually that they actually did and you always were wondering right you were always wondering whether that

01:27:33   Thing was gonna happen at the at the end of the of the keynote

01:27:37   Well, he didn't always and when it did there was usually something that was it was compelling whether it was the Airport Express or I forget

01:27:43   All the things were there but the question that I have is I think it is a Steve thing is my opinion

01:27:48   I don't think I think they will never do it again

01:27:51   Because it is his thing and if they do that would be that's

01:27:56   That is a significant milestone in the post Steve world if they actually go say one more thing because it is him

01:28:02   It's really it is literally a sign of his of his style and in the showman that he was

01:28:08   And

01:28:11   they did and

01:28:13   Then you know it was certain when he died it was certainly an unusual situation and right unusual to say the least a unique

01:28:20   Situation for Apple in its corporate history that there's nobody else

01:28:24   It was death going forward. I mean the company could still be around and still thriving a hundred years from now

01:28:30   Absolutely, and they're still never gonna be anything like the death of Steve Jobs in terms of what it means to the company

01:28:37   And and they had to do something and so they did something unusual and they had you know

01:28:41   They had that picture of him right and a sort of tribute on the home page of Apple calm for a long time

01:28:46   After I died, right?

01:28:48   Months I think it was months. Yeah, it was it was really a long time

01:28:53   I mean some you know, he died in

01:28:55   October

01:28:57   Is it October? I actually don't remember exactly when I think was October and I think they had that up on the homepage through the holiday

01:29:04   Yeah, I mean and you know, that's a particularly big deal because the Apple as big as it is is still

01:29:11   disproportionately a holiday quarter company

01:29:14   Still always it I don't think it's ever gonna not be their biggest quarter of the year

01:29:20   Absolutely, and they spent the whole quarter with their homepage being a tribute to the you know, deceased founder Steve Jobs

01:29:26   And

01:29:30   then you know now it's it's you know,

01:29:33   Once that period was over now, they just don't talk about Steve, right?

01:29:39   right, but I feel like when they have the events it's

01:29:43   Impossible for anybody and I feel like years from now five years from now when they're introducing

01:29:49   you know the the

01:29:51   iPhone 12

01:29:53   Or the 11s, I don't know what the hell they're gonna call it but whatever

01:29:59   Whatever they're gonna call it. We're still gonna think at the beginning of the event when the music stops

01:30:06   And somebody walks out you're gonna think god. I wish that were Steve absolutely

01:30:13   And that's a tough thing for you know for Tim Cook and Phil Schiller and everybody who's gonna do it

01:30:19   Is that it's never nobody's ever gonna stop missing Steve at those events because that's when we

01:30:24   Had any kind of you know sauce with him right that's when his presence was palpable is on the events

01:30:33   And I think I'm with you that I I feel like it would be nice and maybe they could do it

01:30:40   You know and if anybody could pull it off, I think it's Shiller

01:30:43   Sure.

01:30:47   But if they ever did, the first time they did a one more thing.

01:30:51   Right.

01:30:53   In an event going forward without him, it's almost as though it's almost as explicit,

01:31:05   not even implicit, but explicit, a shout out to Steve Jobs, as if they actually just said,

01:31:12   And we'd like to just throw up a you know just you know it's been a year since he died

01:31:16   Here's a picture of him

01:31:17   We just like to say a few words about Steve Jobs who's right on for a year which they're not going to do

01:31:23   But that what if they do a one more thing?

01:31:25   It would be if you were gonna spend that if let's say let's say like if you can actually because there would be a cost

01:31:32   To doing that because I do think it is his his line

01:31:35   But if you were gonna do that the what I would do if I was which I'm not

01:31:41   But would it would have to be something of a magnitude that would be significant

01:31:46   But it also have to be this is something that Steve would have wanted right if it's because otherwise if it's not something amazing if it's

01:31:53   not something

01:31:54   Huge then you're wasting that right it has it would have to be it have to be a call out to him

01:31:59   Is this what I would what I would think is like it has to this feels like a this is a thing that Steve would

01:32:04   Want to build all right because like you and so it's exactly like you mentioned

01:32:08   And I think I've talked about this before,

01:32:10   that it was the fact that it was way more powerful

01:32:15   because it wasn't every event or even predictable.

01:32:19   And I think what I've mentioned before

01:32:22   is that it gets into behavioral psychology

01:32:25   where it's this, a random reinforcement schedule

01:32:30   is actually the most powerful way

01:32:32   to get somebody hooked on something.

01:32:35   And I know I've mentioned this before,

01:32:36   but that if you have, I think it's called a Skinner box,

01:32:40   where you put a rat in a box

01:32:42   and give the rat a little button to push to get food,

01:32:45   and if it's like you set up a schedule

01:32:48   where every other time, every odd time

01:32:52   that it hits the button, a piece of food comes out,

01:32:54   and then you stop, and you just unhook the button,

01:32:59   and then no matter how many times the rat pushes the button,

01:33:02   no food comes out, the rat will give up after like,

01:33:04   I don't know, five, six, seven pushes.

01:33:06   And with different schedules, the rat will keep pushing the dead button after you unhook

01:33:11   it longer and longer.

01:33:12   But if the original schedule is random, the rat will never stop pushing the button.

01:33:19   This is true.

01:33:20   I swear.

01:33:21   Oh, no, I believe you.

01:33:22   It is one of the most interesting things about psychology.

01:33:23   And I feel like that's the one more thing.

01:33:26   For us, is that three years could go by from now.

01:33:32   it's all of a sudden it's 2015 and Michael Lop is back on the talk show with with John Gruber and

01:33:38   We're gonna talk about

01:33:42   Hasn't been a one more thing since Steve Jobs is alive, right?

01:33:44   You'll come on and we'll talk about and we'll say well, maybe they'll do it next time, right?

01:33:48   And we'll be kind of hope that's what and I feel like that's the thing that makes it so interesting and so

01:33:54   It's one of those you writing about that made me so jealous because I was like god damn I wish I wrote that

01:34:01   It's really one of those like I really wish I had written that piece because it really kind of gets to the heart of what?

01:34:07   Makes Apple such an interesting company is that you think about and you know that they think about it, right?

01:34:12   Right and they wouldn't like you said like they would not take if they do it. They wouldn't take it lightly

01:34:17   It's it's it's a little bit off topic

01:34:20   But it's like it's one of the things I'm reading all the press about the Samsung cases

01:34:23   I know I know I'm not there anymore and I don't you know and wasn't involved in any of these conversations

01:34:28   But you got to know that one of the things they said hey listen

01:34:31   We're gonna go we're gonna go to town on this case against Samsung is

01:34:34   We're gonna have to we're gonna have to open the kimono a little bit and show them a little bit of secret sauce

01:34:40   And I don't know how you quantify that. I don't know how you measure that but it's it's

01:34:45   You're seeing prototypes. You're seeing a little bit more of how Apple works, and they don't want that at all

01:34:50   They don't want of course. They don't want that at all and that's that's the thing

01:34:53   I think it I think it pains them to have to like say well

01:34:56   We have this room and this room that's everyone's always known about what's never been actually confirmed everyone sits around the table

01:35:01   And they they hold prototypes in there. They don't want to share that at all because it's a cost to it

01:35:06   It's it's it's the mystique is a little bit less

01:35:09   Mysterious and that's a good line. I don't know but that's the thing they're wrestling with

01:35:14   right like you know it is I

01:35:17   Think it is very much analogous to the the adage that a magician never explained absolutely

01:35:24   work, you know, that you don't talk about it, that it does take something away.

01:35:29   But I do think – I agree with you completely, though, that it's absolutely – they were

01:35:37   completely aware of that going into this lawsuit.

01:35:40   Right.

01:35:41   And they feel that it's worth it.

01:35:42   It is absolutely not the case that they just blindly in anger wanted to sue Samsung and

01:35:49   then all of a sudden a year later they're like, "Oh, shit, we're screwed.

01:35:53   we've got to reveal these prototypes.

01:35:55   - Right.

01:35:55   - Like they knew that.

01:35:56   - All of that, I completely agree with that.

01:35:58   - And completely see that as being worth the risk

01:36:01   for whatever competitive reasons.

01:36:03   I could see it, the thing that gets me thinking

01:36:07   about the one more thing too is that this event

01:36:09   that is rumored for next month.

01:36:13   - Right.

01:36:14   - 'Cause the idea, the rumors are so strong

01:36:17   that it's gonna have both an iPhone and a new iPad,

01:36:21   this smaller iPad thing, makes me think that one or the other of them, like maybe the event

01:36:26   is about the iPhone and the iPad is one more thing, and that you're like getting towards

01:36:30   the end and it seems like they're wrapping up, and then I feel like I can just imagine

01:36:34   myself in the audience, taking my notes, thinking, "Oh shit, I've written all this shit on

01:36:39   Daring Fireball about this iPad mini or air or nano, whatever they're going to call it,

01:36:45   and they are not going to announce it."

01:36:47   And there's one for that site, Gruber was wrong.

01:36:51   And I start getting that flop sweat of, oh shit,

01:36:54   I've got to write an I was wrong article.

01:36:57   And then one more thing.

01:36:59   And I can imagine being there in the audience doing it.

01:37:04   And I can also imagine being at home following along

01:37:07   on all the sites that live blog stuff

01:37:10   and having that same feeling like, oh man, everybody

01:37:12   was wrong about the iPad Mini.

01:37:13   And then all of a sudden, there's

01:37:15   Dan Moran on macworld.com saying one more thing

01:37:18   Shiller one more thing

01:37:22   I'm gonna go with no I think it's his I mean I've been wrong many times

01:37:26   I don't have a tag, but I do want to go on the record on the name

01:37:31   If it there is another iPad coming out. I you see you're saying mini and air

01:37:36   I feel like there's there's exclusive names relative to platforms

01:37:40   And I think many an error are all MacBook and I think blurring that over from that over to the iPad isn't gonna happen

01:37:47   So nano I don't love the name if there is one

01:37:50   But that feels more like that is the realm of more of the the portable devices not portable

01:37:55   But the you know, I'm talking about the iOS devices. So that's just going on the record there

01:38:00   All right, you're going on a record now the reason I don't think they'll use nano is that nano to me is really small

01:38:07   Smallness. Yeah, and I don't think smallness is the is where they're going. I think it's a thinness and lightness. I

01:38:14   Would go I agree. I would go with new word before air or many

01:38:20   Okay, all right one more thing just before we go

01:38:26   Yeah

01:38:26   If they do if

01:38:28   Apple does ever do whether it's next month whether it's a year from now whether it's three years from now if they ever do

01:38:34   Another one more thing in a presentation. Mmm who does it?

01:38:39   And I think it's either I think it's a binary choice. I think it's either Schiller or it's Tim Cook. I

01:38:45   think

01:38:48   It's got I'm with you on the Schiller. I think Schiller I think she's watching Schiller

01:38:53   He's just started so uncomfortable years ago. He was sort of the court gesture type and he is no longer that at all. Obviously

01:38:59   He's I think he's a much better speaker and a much better presenter than he was five ten years ago

01:39:04   Um, but and he may be able to do it with more flair

01:39:08   But it's the CEO right? I think I think if you're gonna do it, it's got to be Tim Cook and it and again

01:39:15   I don't think that they do it because I think it is a Steve thing

01:39:18   But the CEO has to announce it even though Tim is Tim doing products. I can't even do it right now

01:39:24   Well, he hasn't he to my knowledge. He has not done a product

01:39:28   He does he sort of talks about the company at the beginning and introduced the event and he does the wrap-up at the end

01:39:34   but he hasn't done a product. Right. I would go with Tim. I think I think Schiller

01:39:40   constitutionally could totally do it, but again, if you're gonna do this, if you

01:39:44   believe my theory that it's gonna be, it's gonna be, they're gonna spend it in

01:39:49   a very careful way, it's something that comes from Tim. Alright. People always say

01:39:55   I should have people on the show who disagree with me rather than agree with

01:39:59   me. I'm gonna disagree. I'm gonna say that if they ever do it, it's gonna be

01:40:03   Shiller, not Cook.

01:40:04   And for the reason that

01:40:07   Cook is the one who has to sort of

01:40:13   toe this line of being the guy in charge.

01:40:18   I'm now the head motherfucker in charge,

01:40:20   but I'm not trying to be Steve Jobs.

01:40:24   - Right.

01:40:25   - That's a very strange and difficult

01:40:28   and totally do not want to be that in that man's shoes

01:40:33   line to Hugh.

01:40:35   And I feel that him doing a one more thing

01:40:38   would come across as, I think I'm Steve Jobs now.

01:40:42   Whereas Schiller could pull it off and make it seem like,

01:40:45   look, Steve always did this, but it's an Apple thing,

01:40:48   not a Steve thing.

01:40:49   - Yeah, but then it's smaller, right?

01:40:51   Then it's not that Schiller is not amazing and great.

01:40:53   - I agree, because it's coming out of somebody

01:40:55   who's not the CEO.

01:40:56   - Exactly, right.

01:40:58   Again, I think we can disagree here, but my gut is they just don't do it.

01:41:03   I think there's a certain set of things that we could debate on what this list is that

01:41:08   are sacred and no longer there, one of them being Steve Jobs, but the other things that

01:41:12   are associated with him.

01:41:13   That feels like one of them.

01:41:15   It feels like part of his show.

01:41:17   As things were getting worse, you could see it in the present.

01:41:22   It used to be just a Steve Jobs show and there was occasionally someone from Sony up there

01:41:27   Just embarrassing all of us, but they started to kind of build out the crew and you know forest all was there more

01:41:32   And there was more folks. They started getting to that world of

01:41:34   Sort of the cast of characters as opposed to just him

01:41:37   And that's the current the current status quo, but it's to me. It's just it's that's that's his and

01:41:44   Again, they if they're gonna spend it it better be something big

01:41:47   Totally agree Michael op. Thank you for being here. I want to thank I want to thank our sponsors

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