The Talk Show

12: Down to the Mac Nerd Guys, with John Siracusa


00:00:00   You know what I had to do to get this to happen?

00:00:02   What'd you have to do?

00:00:03   Reboot into my super duper clone

00:00:05   Really?

00:00:06   Yeah, because I just upgraded to 10.8

00:00:08   I was like i'd upgraded every other computer in the house to 10.8 without a problem

00:00:12   I said oh this looks like it's going to be a cakewalk

00:00:14   I'll just upgrade my main machine to 10.8 and it was going fine until I tried to use skype and you sounded like

00:00:20   Whatever the the voice from uh, the scream movie. Oh, yeah

00:00:26   I always do my Skyping from my MacBook Air.

00:00:29   But right after I upgraded that machine to 10.8

00:00:32   and first tried to record a show,

00:00:33   I forget how many problems Skype gave me.

00:00:36   So it was pretty bad.

00:00:38   Anyway, before we get started, this is De rigor.

00:00:41   This is something I do with everybody on the show now

00:00:43   is I need a little bit of personal information.

00:00:45   I need your mother's maiden name

00:00:47   and the name of the street you grew up on

00:00:49   and your first elementary school.

00:00:52   - What about my pet's name?

00:00:53   First pet.

00:00:54   - Yeah, exactly.

00:00:54   all four of those things.

00:00:56   >> BRIAN KARDELL Yeah, that's always just been weird to me that we have all these rules

00:01:00   around passwords and the backup, the backup for like, well, in case you forgot your password,

00:01:04   the backup is like things people can easily find out about you using the internet. That's

00:01:08   like the category of what they are, you know?

00:01:10   >> JONATHAN KARDELL Right.

00:01:11   >> BRIAN KARDELL Of all the things, like what color is your hair? What is your eye color?

00:01:15   You know, like you can Google for all this stuff. Mother's maiden name, do you kill off

00:01:19   your entire mother's side of the family? Like they no longer exist. How hard is it to look

00:01:22   up what someone's mother's maiden name is?

00:01:24   Yeah, and of course the reason we're talking about this is the Matt Honan situation from

00:01:30   a week ago.

00:01:31   There's a picture of him in case you wanted to know his hair color and eye color.

00:01:34   Right.

00:01:35   You can go right to the Wired story.

00:01:36   See the poor guy right there.

00:01:38   You can just – the look on his face is like I just lost all the photos of my daughter.

00:01:43   That's what that look says to me.

00:01:46   So anyway, long story short, I mean I'm sure everybody who listens is probably at least

00:01:49   somewhat familiar with the story, but Matt Honan is a lot of Twitter followers and he

00:01:53   for Wired, used to write for Gizmodo. Really had like a war almost like a

00:01:58   worst-case scenario where like Saturday afternoon he's playing with his young

00:02:03   daughter and all of a sudden like starts noticing some funky things. I forget what

00:02:07   what came first but it's like all of a sudden his phone rebooted, his iPhone

00:02:10   rebooted, and next thing you know is his iPad reboots, his MacBook Air reboots, they

00:02:17   all get locked out, they're all remote wiped, and all of a sudden some hacker

00:02:22   hacker group starts posting, takes over his Twitter account and starts posting, I mean,

00:02:27   just horrible, racist and homophobic and maybe even most embarrassing of all, ridiculous

00:02:33   hacker Leetspeak talk to his Twitter account.

00:02:39   And long story short, the whole thing happened because they wanted to mess with his Twitter

00:02:44   account.

00:02:45   And to get his Twitter account, they wanted his Gmail account.

00:02:52   and his Gmail account had as his backup his me.com iCloud email address as like a secondary

00:03:02   account.

00:03:04   And they knew that they could take that over just by calling Apple and giving them his

00:03:10   street address in the last four digits of his credit card.

00:03:14   And they could get the last four digits of his credit card just by calling Amazon and

00:03:21   Amazon is what was it I forget what you needed to know like an email address and

00:03:26   a shipping address and then you could say hey I have a new credit card I just

00:03:29   wanted to add it to my account you give them a bogus credit card then you call

00:03:34   Amazon right back and say I lost access to my email I think I've got this right

00:03:41   so far do I have you got it right I lost access to my email but I do know the

00:03:46   last four digits of my credit card which is the bogus one they just gave you you

00:03:49   they you just gave Amazon not even a real credit card. You just go online and use like a tool that

00:03:55   gives you like a credit card. You know, one that hasn't been verified to make charges, but just

00:04:01   the numbers comply with the rules, you know, we're like MasterCard start with a five and visas start

00:04:07   with a four and a couple of other rules. At which point Amazon will let you reset your account to

00:04:17   I forget what they do.

00:04:18   Somehow they reset your-- they let you add a new email address,

00:04:22   I think.

00:04:22   They let you log in, and you can't see your credit card

00:04:25   numbers after logging in.

00:04:26   But you can see the abbreviated versions

00:04:27   of your existing credit card number.

00:04:29   Which is all you need to give Apple.

00:04:31   Right, just those last four digits,

00:04:33   because they star out everything except for the last four.

00:04:35   Right.

00:04:36   And so then you can call Apple back with-- say, I'm Matt

00:04:39   Honan.

00:04:40   Here's my home address.

00:04:42   Here's the last four digits of my account.

00:04:46   I you know, please reset my iCloud password.

00:04:50   And then at that point, all that all those dominoes

00:04:53   that I just set up over the last four minutes,

00:04:55   they all fall down because now they've got

00:04:57   his iCloud account.

00:04:59   And they can they've got the password for that.

00:05:02   And then they use that to use the find my iPhone

00:05:05   to remote wipe his devices to lock them out of his computers.

00:05:09   And then they had Gmail send a reset password

00:05:13   to the iCloud account they were in control of,

00:05:15   which let them take over his Gmail, and then they just, I mean, it seems like the guy,

00:05:19   I can't, he does, the thing that most surprised me is that he wasn't, at least publicly and

00:05:24   writing about it, didn't seem angry about the guys who did this to him.

00:05:27   That's one of those things where like you're in shock, because it's just, it's just such

00:05:31   a huge thing that's just so unlikely to happen, you don't even imagine it happening. And also,

00:05:37   he says many times that he blames himself, and probably rightly, like you don't blame

00:05:42   yourself for getting hacked, but you blame for yourself for having no backups.

00:05:44   Right, that's that's the killer

00:05:46   All the guys wanted to do is take over his Twitter account and mess around with it which in and of itself

00:05:51   They're being assholes about it

00:05:53   But at least if that's all that they did all they did was embarrass him by

00:05:57   Putting a bunch of gibberish on his Twitter account for 12 hours

00:06:00   But the remote wiping of his computers and they they also like remote or not remote wipe

00:06:07   But you know did whatever you do in Gmail to say hey just you know

00:06:10   Delete everything I have in here which is like for him like seven years of email or something like that

00:06:15   Boom just closed out the account. That's just spite

00:06:18   Well, it's not it's not so much spite because they don't even know the guy

00:06:22   It's just like if you give hackers once hackers get access

00:06:26   How are you gonna resist that like now, you know that the whole idea is like control and power

00:06:30   It's like you know what I can remotely wipe all these guys machines because of how he set everything up

00:06:34   That's just the ultimate in power. You're reaching across the internet and just like massively

00:06:39   Smiting this person so it's impossible to resist I guess so because I guess whatever is wrong with your with whatever is wrong with your

00:06:46   Mind that would make you want to

00:06:48   Take over someone's Twitter account like that

00:06:50   It's probably wrong in the same way where you're gonna get a half a giggle out of remote wiping their computer and that's

00:06:56   That's all you need

00:06:58   Yeah, that's just that's that's just the mindset. But the thing about it is like

00:07:02   so we all heard this story and I think

00:07:06   First thing everyone's looking for like what can I do to prevent this happening to me?

00:07:10   That's why we all read all these details about how this is a kind of ad and you know

00:07:14   Like is there something I can do to my setup to make it so this can't happen to me

00:07:19   I think the worst part of the story is

00:07:21   There's probably nothing you can do to stop something similar happening to you

00:07:26   not the exact same thing but something similar because

00:07:29   All you can do is have good backups obviously, but ignoring having good backups

00:07:34   Everything else is like things that aren't under our control

00:07:37   We don't control Amazon's policy for recovering your credit card or Apple's policy for how to reset like we don't control any of that stuff

00:07:44   And so there's nothing it doesn't seem we seem powerless because like I have good passwords. They're all different

00:07:50   Have like having a backup email account seems like a good thing

00:07:54   I have you know if I ever need to recover I've got my backup email account like everything seems to be good and then

00:07:59   Where we end up getting screwed is because of things that other people did that we can't control they probably never even thought of right

00:08:05   Like Google for example really really encourages you to have a backup email account

00:08:09   But in fact if he didn't he would have been better off

00:08:12   Right or if it had been something other than you know a different service that didn't have as exploitable

00:08:19   Rules for a password recovery, and this kind of gets back to the question of you know the getting your what is your first?

00:08:25   pet's name and stuff like that. The idea that there's all this security, but the weak link

00:08:29   and the security is the thing that's there because we all forget our passwords, and that's like,

00:08:34   "Oh, I forgot my password. How do I recover it?" And the things that you use to recover it are so

00:08:39   much less secure than every other part of the system. It's just the most glaring weak link.

00:08:44   I mean, then why is it I'll ask you, "What is your first name? What is your last name?"

00:08:47   Like, it's so easy to find that information.

00:08:50   And just, you know, just tell me the truth. Is it really you? Right, like, you know, if you

00:08:54   pinky, if you pinky swear, you can get your account. And I, I recognize why that's the case.

00:08:58   But it seems almost perverse. It's like, it's easier. You know, it's easier than remembering

00:09:03   your password, remembering simple demographic information about yourself and looking in your

00:09:07   wallet for two seconds at your credit card. And that's all you need to get into these accounts

00:09:10   if you're willing to sit on that phone for two seconds. So. Right. And I have to admit,

00:09:15   at a certain selfish level, one of the things I was looking at over the weekend is this

00:09:19   excuse me, as this situation exploded was I remember thinking I kind of hope that Honan

00:09:27   did something stupid at some point along the way. Like, you know, figures out that it, you know,

00:09:32   like he logged into his Gmail on a, you know, library, public library computer or something

00:09:41   like that, like something that I would never do, so that I then I could think,

00:09:49   well, that couldn't happen to me. Whereas I kind of think, yeah, it might be.

00:09:59   I don't know. I don't know that anybody could take over my Twitter

00:10:02   account the way that they did. I don't think I have a chain of email accounts

00:10:07   that's connected to Gmail like that. But I'm not 100% sure. But somebody certainly could have

00:10:16   or even still could take over my iCloud account the same way.

00:10:22   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah. Well, not anymore because of that.

00:10:25   **Ezra Kleinman** Right. And Amazon has as well.

00:10:28   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah. And the one thing in this story is I think

00:10:30   Amazon decision to display the stars and then the last four digits of their credit card,

00:10:36   I don't think you should ding them for that because that's been standard practice forever

00:10:39   Starting out everything the last four digits

00:10:42   the flaw is not that Amazon shows you last word is the flaw is an Amazon's customer service allowing you to reset passwords and

00:10:48   Secondarily an Apple saying oh you just need to give me the last four digits because I don't want you to read the all the

00:10:53   Digits over the phone because that would be insecure or whatever like that's crazy

00:10:57   Where you just need the last four digits as to prove that you're you it's not I don't I don't blame

00:11:02   Amazon at all for showing the credit cards the way they did everything else yes, there's plenty of blame to go around for that one part

00:11:08   I don't think people should get hung up on right and a prayer yeah, and so am an Amazon

00:11:12   I think has an easier fix where I just don't think that they should allow like you said they shouldn't allow

00:11:17   That stuff to be changed over the phone like that

00:11:20   And particularly not oh you know

00:11:23   It's so disconnected where you give them a credit card, and they say okay went to them

00:11:28   And you call back and say hey, I just got locked out

00:11:30   here's my credit card number that you just gave them and there's no awareness that you just gave

00:11:33   them to that it doesn't have to be a credit card that you use like their verifications procedure

00:11:37   for proving who you are is similarly bogus that it's gamed so easily by call give a fake number

00:11:43   hang up call back right it certainly shouldn't be possible to do it with a credit card that

00:11:48   like if you want to say this is my new credit card and that they want to enter it without actually

00:11:52   running a charge that's okay but it should still somehow be flagged as okay there's a new credit

00:11:58   card here, but this is an unverified card that hasn't even had a charge run against

00:12:01   it yet.

00:12:02   Or just have an awareness that this guy just called two minutes ago, or yesterday, or whatever,

00:12:06   and has called to add this card.

00:12:10   Not a lot of thought has gone into those recovery procedures.

00:12:13   And I understand the recovery procedures have to be easy, because look, these guys couldn't

00:12:17   even remember their password.

00:12:18   We got to make it so easy.

00:12:19   Can you imagine the turmoil if they had policies that were more like you'd forget your password

00:12:25   and you'd call them up and you're like, "I can't prove to these people that I am who

00:12:27   I am like they want my passport and I have to show up in person and give a blood sample like I don't know

00:12:33   It's ridiculous. I can't get my account unlock. They won't believe that I am. Oh, yeah, my totally am like that is bad PR

00:12:38   It's also they go to the other way and they say okay

00:12:41   well

00:12:41   We'll just ask them some basic stuff and ask them some

00:12:44   Security question that anyone could Google the answer to and you know

00:12:47   Maybe something about their credit card or just the expiration date or some stuff like that

00:12:51   So people come out of that experience like oh, I forgot my password. I call customer service. It was so nice

00:12:55   It was so easy. I got right back in

00:12:57   That's 99.99% of the time.

00:13:00   Those policies put good feelings on customers and how easy it was for them to recover their

00:13:05   account.

00:13:06   But this 1% is a doozy.

00:13:07   Right.

00:13:08   And I can sort of see.

00:13:09   And so I think bottom line is that Apple really had the procedure in place that deserves the

00:13:14   most criticism, where being able to get your iCloud account or Apple ID, I should say,

00:13:19   because it's any kind of Apple ID, not just an iCloud account.

00:13:22   you can get your Apple ID password reset just with your name, home address, and last four

00:13:30   digits of a credit card really seems like glaringly insecure.

00:13:35   Like when I wrote about it, you'd never write your password on a piece of paper and put

00:13:40   it in your – or at least most people wouldn't do it and keep it in your wallet.

00:13:45   But anybody who picks up my wallet has my home address and the last four digits of all

00:13:49   my credit cards.

00:13:50   I mean, and so, I mean, obviously you're in a lot of trouble if some, you know, no good

00:13:54   nick has your wallet, but you shouldn't be thinking, like if I lost my wallet or I suspected

00:14:00   somebody stole it, I would never think, well, now they've got my iCloud account.

00:14:04   But in fact, according to the, you know, by their previous procedures, they would.

00:14:08   Yeah.

00:14:09   And it's the worst because that is the power of the Apple ID has just vastly increased

00:14:14   over time.

00:14:15   Like at first it was like, you can buy stuff from iTunes.

00:14:17   That's bad enough.

00:14:18   Right.

00:14:19   iCloud and you can remote wipe those machines and then extend it to Macs and so like finally

00:14:23   iCloud became powerful enough to control any piece of hardware anyway if so configured

00:14:28   and this poor guy just after that happened gets hacked and they just they reach out and

00:14:33   they just wipe all his hardware which is such a crazy thing you would expect like oh they

00:14:36   have to break into each thing or whatever no they just get that one little key to the

00:14:39   kingdom and over the network wherever you are wherever these things are they can go

00:14:44   I mean you're really once you're in fine once you're in find my iPhone you're

00:14:48   you're I don't know six clicks away from wiping out all three of the devices yeah

00:14:54   so I I don't know what what they should do I know everybody a lot of people a

00:15:01   lot of thing a lot of publicity and in response to this is about Google's

00:15:05   optional two-factor authentication you know which I don't use even in and after

00:15:13   this because it just seems like a pain in the ass.

00:15:16   Yeah, I wonder if that would have helped though because if you had your backup email address

00:15:20   as your Mac.com thing, would that be the two-factor?

00:15:23   I don't think the two-factor lets you use email.

00:15:25   I think it has to be like a phone or something.

00:15:27   Well, two-factor is for just getting in, but what if you can't get into the two-factor

00:15:32   thing?

00:15:33   I thought you could go, "Okay, I've totally forgotten.

00:15:35   You send something to my backup email address."

00:15:37   Isn't that the point of the backup?

00:15:38   It's like the last resort?

00:15:39   But I think if you turn if think if you'd sign up for the two-factor authentication at Google then

00:15:44   You can't reset your account that way

00:15:47   Yeah, I mean the one thing I did in response to the story was changed my backup email address on Google to not be

00:15:55   One of my various Apple IDs. Mmm

00:15:58   There's only predictions old people have is we have multiple Apple IDs for historical reasons and you know that helps a little bit

00:16:07   security through obscurity, but yeah, I changed it to not be my my because so then

00:16:11   like because your main email address is really like the keys to the kingdom because that's always like associated with all of your accounts and

00:16:17   You can send the password resets there. So that really has to be super protected and I've many times

00:16:21   I've considered putting two-factor auth on my gmail account

00:16:23   But it just seems too annoying to me

00:16:27   Maybe I should just try it for a while to see if it really is annoying

00:16:30   But it's especially annoying to me because I don't even have an iPhone. So I got my crap phone and

00:16:34   Do I really want to be making sure my crap phone is charged and it has a signal and I can look at the little

00:16:39   code and I don't know

00:16:41   Maybe I'll try it someday. But but anyway, like, you know, I would have been more motivated motivated to do that. There was some sort of

00:16:46   Password hack or something or really it's just it's customer service policies that that bit him, right?

00:16:53   And I can also see how I you know, it was a mistake and not clearly somebody with a good

00:16:59   suspicious hardened

00:17:02   Security mindset didn't really look at these procedures that Apple had in place

00:17:06   But from a customer support standpoint you could see I mean who knows who only knows who can only guess how many people call

00:17:13   Apple every honest people with the honest problem that they don't remember their iCloud password

00:17:18   Who need to just need it reset?

00:17:22   I mean who knows I mean I wouldn't be surprised if it's a huge number

00:17:26   Yeah

00:17:27   When they say social engineering you think it's like someone who's a smooth talker kind of cajoled somebody into doing something

00:17:32   they weren't supposed to or whatever, but this was a case of they were just going right down,

00:17:35   they were totally within the guidelines. They didn't have to sweet talk anybody. They didn't

00:17:39   have to make a sob story. And I bet those sob stories work. Like I bet, you know, if you're

00:17:43   really convincing and you're just like, oh, it's an emergency or I need this right now, you know,

00:17:47   I don't remember my home address. Can you, you know, or if you can be convincing, not that I

00:17:51   remember my home address, but if you can be convincing in that way, that's what you think

00:17:54   of when you're social engineering. This wasn't social engineering. This was just a normal

00:17:58   Customer services a call that proceeded exactly as expected right? That's that's the really scary part, right?

00:18:04   Yeah, it wasn't like this was you know, the world's greatest con man

00:18:07   really pulling a clever a

00:18:11   Clever scam over the support rep. Yeah, it was just right it also seems to me and this isn't is so clear from

00:18:18   Honan's reporting on it, which has been copious, you know, he did a really good thorough write-up of it for wired the

00:18:24   day or two later

00:18:27   But I got the impression from his back and forth with the one of the hackers who got him

00:18:33   That

00:18:37   This seems like at least in certain underground circles seemed to be widely known that you can take over at

00:18:44   An Apple ID pretty easily if you can get those things yeah

00:18:49   This is the type of thing that would be widely known because it just doesn't require any technical skills. It's just simply you know a

00:18:56   Not very well kept secret among people who are in these circles that here here are the easy ways to

00:19:00   Exploit customer service policies to get access to people's accounts and hacking required and so I you know one of the floods I've had

00:19:08   In the week since is that I've seen a lot of reports over the last year or two

00:19:12   Not a ton but enough that I've seen it. It's like a

00:19:16   Something that's repeated that people getting their iTunes account hacked and they're swear up and down that they used a unique password

00:19:24   never put it into with somebody else's computer and it just doesn't make any

00:19:31   sense how their account got hacked. And there was the stories like oh this is a

00:19:38   well-known hack and Apple's addressing it maybe if it was all customer service

00:19:42   stuff. I wonder though because it and my first thought was I bet that maybe

00:19:45   that's the source of this is that there's people who you know that who use

00:19:49   this this address and four digits of a credit card combined maybe with the

00:19:53   Amazon thing to do that but I would think that Apple would be able to and

00:19:59   Apple's publicly at least has brushed these off by saying you know with you

00:20:03   know that their response when people write in and say look my account was

00:20:06   hacked was that you know you should be more careful with your password blah

00:20:09   blah blah more or less kind of blaming them assuming that it was somehow the

00:20:14   users fault that for leaking their password but I would think if there was

00:20:17   a pattern where these people who called and said my account got hacked and their

00:20:22   account records show that they had one of these phone calls where they got the

00:20:27   account changed presumably recently, right? I mean I don't think any of these

00:20:32   hackers if their goal is to do things like buy $100 worth of apps from your

00:20:39   iTunes account it's not like they're changing your password and then doing it

00:20:46   two months later because you're gonna notice right away because all of a

00:20:49   of a sudden you can't get into your iTunes account.

00:20:51   Presumably they change the password and immediately use it.

00:20:55   You would think that that pattern would be detectable

00:20:57   in your records that hey, these people all called up

00:21:00   and had their password changed right before

00:21:02   they then claimed to be hacked.

00:21:04   - It's the same as the Amazon situation though

00:21:06   where you call up, add a credit card, hang up,

00:21:07   call right back and say I can't get into my account.

00:21:09   Like there probably is a lack of global awareness

00:21:13   of what has happened in the past to this customer.

00:21:16   I mean, you always say, let me pull up your record here

00:21:18   before you talk to it and you expect them to see a record of all the times you've called,

00:21:21   but maybe that's not happening.

00:21:24   Obviously it's not happening in the Amazon case where they're not pulling up your thing

00:21:27   and saying, "You just called two minutes ago to add this credit card.

00:21:29   Now you're reading the number back to me."

00:21:31   Anyone can see that that's weird.

00:21:33   So you're just assuming that they would realize that, "Oh, all these people who got hacked,

00:21:39   well, I can look from their records and they all did this password."

00:21:41   Maybe they don't even see that.

00:21:42   Maybe it's not even the same people.

00:21:43   Maybe they don't have access to that record.

00:21:45   Who knows?

00:21:46   You can't tell.

00:21:47   The other alternative is that Apple knew and was trying to cover it up, but I don't see

00:21:50   why they would do that because it's so easy to change that policy.

00:21:53   As we see, they changed the policy.

00:21:55   It's not rocket science.

00:21:56   It's not like they need to patch some piece of software.

00:21:58   They just say, "Okay, new policy, everybody.

00:22:01   Don't do that anymore."

00:22:02   Right.

00:22:03   It's a hard problem to solve, though, because what should they do?

00:22:05   What should they do to let you reset your password if you forget it?

00:22:09   Yeah.

00:22:10   I mean, you could go with the full credit card number if it's a credit card that's actually

00:22:14   been used.

00:22:15   That's not good though, because I don't think it should be information that you can

00:22:19   get by stealing somebody's wallet.

00:22:21   Well, I mean, it's got – the thing with the two-factor is like something you have

00:22:24   versus something you know and all the different things that you can use to authenticate.

00:22:28   But when they've forgotten their password and if you don't have any other shared piece

00:22:33   of information with them, all you can do to prove that you're you is give them information

00:22:38   they already have about you.

00:22:39   There's no new information you can give them to prove that you're you.

00:22:43   You can only, I mean, maybe what you could do in the fantasy world type thing is when

00:22:49   you create your account, have a photo have to be associated with the account, and when

00:22:55   you try to recover your thing, they can do a video chat with you, which we currently

00:22:58   don't quite have the technology to fake.

00:23:00   They ask you questions and you talk to them and they can see that it's really you.

00:23:03   Then your twin brother can break into your account, I guess, but that's kind of more

00:23:06   of a family problem.

00:23:09   Stuff like that.

00:23:10   What else can you really do?

00:23:11   They all they know about you is what they have on file and if you can parrot back every piece of that information to them

00:23:16   Then what else do they have?

00:23:18   So I think photos and video is that the only next place that can go and beyond that it has to be some sort of

00:23:23   Two factor thing. I know I've gotten credit cards before

00:23:28   Where like when the new credit card comes you have to call to activate it and that only works if you call from the phone

00:23:35   Number that they have on a file for you. Yeah, I

00:23:39   Don't know how much your phone can be, you know

00:23:42   And I know that's how partly least partly how Google's two-factor authentication works is assuming that you have a phone number that can be trusted

00:23:48   Yeah, that's that's the something you have. What do you have? I have my cell phone. I have my home phone

00:23:52   I have possession of the home from which this number

00:23:55   I mean, it's not people don't have landlines as much anymore, but it's it's it's the something you have thing there

00:23:59   I had a similar situation

00:24:00   I don't know if you saw these tweets from like the other week when I was going in to pick up my monitor at the Apple

00:24:04   Store. Yeah, I did and I forgot my wallet

00:24:08   and they said oh, sorry, we can't give you your computer without your wallet and and

00:24:12   What I thought of was look you've got my information on file

00:24:16   Why don't you just call the telephone number?

00:24:19   Associated with with you know this repair and my wife will answer the phone and she'll

00:24:24   Tell you that I just left to go to the Apple store and she'll talk to me on the phone and confirm that it's to

00:24:28   You that it's like right? What's more secure than that?

00:24:30   Like anyone can get a wallet and a photo ID and who knows the picture they even look at the picture if it looks

00:24:36   Particularly like me or anything like that anyway

00:24:39   Yeah, that's much easier to fake then you have this telephone number on file that I gave you when I drop the thing off

00:24:44   Why would I you know if someone had my wife a gun pointed home so they can get a new 27 inch monitor?

00:24:49   But they wouldn't accept that

00:24:51   And nor would they accept the other things that I suggested which was like a

00:24:54   Google for my name or other people said how about you just sign in with your Apple ID like there's an Apple ID

00:24:59   Associated with this repair if I can sign in with that does that prove it as me nope photo ID only

00:25:05   So I have to go back home and get a photo ID and then I know I don't know I know the kicker

00:25:09   Yeah, the guy doesn't even ask me for it. I think I said silent the whole time. I'm like

00:25:15   Tell him what I hear he goes back

00:25:17   It's a thing gives it to me puts it back in the box all packed up

00:25:20   He says alright, so you're all set like I just wanted to make sure that he wasn't waiting till the very end to say okay

00:25:24   Oh, yeah, let me see that photo. We had nothing I

00:25:26   Can't it was like you know

00:25:28   I just went home to get my photo ID and then now you didn't even ask for it

00:25:32   So I recognize you from when you dropped it off. I

00:25:34   Did I didn't recognize him he wasn't the guy who helped me and he wasn't I didn't see him when I first came

00:25:39   Where were you killing me? Where was he half an hour ago? Yeah

00:25:42   But there's a similar situation where you're gonna hand somebody especially like it was a warranty repair

00:25:49   So it's free you're gonna hand somebody a potentially expensive piece of hardware

00:25:52   just because they told you like their name and

00:25:55   That there's something waiting for them and they want some way to show that you're you and that

00:26:00   That's even weirder because when you drop it off,

00:26:03   they don't think they take the photo ID.

00:26:04   I don't remember.

00:26:05   Maybe someone will send you angry emails and say they do,

00:26:07   but that's what they go with, photo identification.

00:26:12   So it seems like for online,

00:26:14   it has to be something similar where either they're relying

00:26:16   on your physical appearance and things that are difficult

00:26:19   to fake, not so much a photo,

00:26:20   but a video of you talking or something you have,

00:26:23   which is your cell phone or your home phone

00:26:24   or something like that that they can show that,

00:26:27   "Yeah, I have this information."

00:26:28   And you may know the information that we have on file here,

00:26:31   but let's prove it's really you.

00:26:32   I'm gonna call the phone number on here

00:26:34   and you better answer it to show that it's really you.

00:26:36   - Only other thing I can think of that could verify stuff

00:26:42   like that would be like your home address.

00:26:46   Like that seems pretty secure,

00:26:47   but then you don't get fast turnaround.

00:26:49   Like maybe they could--

00:26:50   - Send you a piece of mail.

00:26:51   - Right, they'll send you a piece of mail

00:26:53   and the mail would contain like a, you know,

00:26:57   some kind of keyword or something like a unique and then you have to call Apple

00:27:00   and read the keyword and then you know you could get your account back but you

00:27:04   know I customer service wise the three or four day turnaround on that is you

00:27:09   know it's intolerant flip out yeah people would flip out it would be like

00:27:12   there would be a story in the New York Times and within two days of that policy

00:27:17   going to affect it's got to be electronic it's got to be immediate but

00:27:21   it also has to be secure right now and I guess I would be negligent if I didn't

00:27:26   mentioned that the recent act didn't Apple recently acquire on of the URL handy they just bought like a fingerprint ID company

00:27:33   Yeah, and that's that's not good tweet about that

00:27:35   I forget who it was saying that if if this this hack had happened two days earlier before the acquisition

00:27:42   The acquisition would have been read would have been reported as a desperate move by Apple to shore up its security resources

00:27:47   I didn't think of that but that is true. That's totally true

00:27:50   Apple that story dodged the bullet just by by mere days

00:27:56   Right because everybody wants to see cause and effect. All right. Yeah

00:27:59   Yeah, that would have been huge. That would have been absolutely huge and then it would have been that, you know

00:28:04   And it got a regular amount of well

00:28:06   This means Apple must be adding fingerprint ID to phones and trackpad soon or whatever, but it would have been deafening

00:28:11   It would have been like iPhone 5 is gonna have a fingerprint ID scan all because of that Matt Horner

00:28:16   They was you know

00:28:17   What happened is he got hacked and then 24 hours later they acquired a company for several million dollars because that's how those deals work

00:28:22   All right, so he wakes up and said what Matt Horan was hacked by the fingerprint company the next day. It's bought

00:28:28   It's done. I will say this though in terms of coincidences and cause and effect and thinking maybe you know

00:28:34   This might be related somehow tonight just a few hours ago. I got a direct message from

00:28:39   at verified

00:28:42   Then it's the Twitter verified accounts

00:28:45   Account and the direct message said that Twitter wanted to verify my Twitter account and click this URL

00:28:52   Sure, rub it in. Go ahead.

00:28:54   And I click it, and you have to answer like three questions, and then all of a sudden

00:28:59   now I've got the little blue stamp up there on my Twitter account.

00:29:03   And you get recognized at Apple stores, and your Twitter account is verified. It's all

00:29:06   right. I'll handle it.

00:29:07   You know what? Getting recognized at Apple stores is no good.

00:29:10   I don't ask for it, but it's just one time it would have actually helped me.

00:29:13   Yeah, that's true.

00:29:14   It's the one time that it would have saved me, you know.

00:29:16   You should have had him call me. I would have vouched for you.

00:29:18   Oh, that would be the worst. That's the worst.

00:29:22   Well, Krewberry will tell you that to me.

00:29:25   So what did Twitter ask you?

00:29:26   Well, you know what?

00:29:27   And the funny thing is, it's not really – they're not really assuming that – they say – here's

00:29:32   what they say when you – this is how you get verified.

00:29:33   They say you're going to answer three questions.

00:29:35   And I'm thinking – I'm so suspicious and paranoid.

00:29:38   I was already thinking –

00:29:39   This is a scam.

00:29:40   Number one, I was thinking when the direct message came in that it was a scam.

00:29:42   And I was hesitant to click the link and –

00:29:45   Because you don't follow at verified.

00:29:46   So how did they DM you?

00:29:48   That's a very good question.

00:29:51   And in fact, I don't know.

00:29:53   And –

00:29:54   Well, their Twitter, they can do whatever the hell they want.

00:29:55   Exactly.

00:29:56   But it was the weirdest DM I ever got because it showed up on my Mac in the tweetbot alpha

00:30:02   and I went – just I don't even know why because I was so suspicious about this whole

00:30:06   thing.

00:30:07   I went to my iPhone and opened the official Twitter client and looked for it there and

00:30:11   it wasn't there.

00:30:12   And I like waited a couple of minutes and reloaded and it didn't come.

00:30:17   And I started thinking like, "Whoa, that's weird.

00:30:18   What the hell is going on?"

00:30:19   That never happens.

00:30:20   sometimes there's 30 seconds of latency between one client or another with DMs.

00:30:24   They're not real-time, but they're not two, three, four minutes apart just

00:30:30   because you're on a different client. Then I logged in to twitter.com, the

00:30:34   website, which I think is, I think most people would agree, is probably the

00:30:37   canonical interface to Twitter. Yeah, I always go there when I have a doubt. Right, and so I

00:30:41   went there and the DM wasn't there either, and now I'm thinking, now this is

00:30:45   weird, this is really, now I'm like, this is crazy. But then within like another two,

00:30:50   Three four minutes it did show up everywhere. Yeah, I've seen that with DMS like I

00:30:54   Frequently very frequently pretty much all the time get the email

00:30:58   I still have emails for DMS get the email response that I've got a DM before I see it in most of my clients

00:31:03   But yeah bottom line is they they have it's their their verified accounts account has a superpower that it can send DMS to whoever

00:31:12   They want

00:31:13   The three questions though are not about verifying you it's and it makes sense in hindsight

00:31:18   It has nothing to do with that because they're not suspicious

00:31:21   That I'm not that at my accounts been hacked, right? They already you know, I mean

00:31:27   All they asked me and it's so silly is they ask you a series of three questions of which tweet is better and it's so

00:31:35   obviously

00:31:37   Geared toward the assumption that you are some sort of pop culture celebrity

00:31:43   know that you're like a pop culture celebrity and it's like which tweet is better and

00:31:47   One on the one side. There's a fake a fake Twitter account saying

00:31:51   watching the Oscars

00:31:53   Like with a hashtag like washing the hashtag Oscars on ABC

00:31:58   Loving the fashions on the red carpet and then the other one is

00:32:02   watched the Oscars last night and

00:32:05   And then you vote you pick obviously the right answer is the one where you're doing it live

00:32:11   And then you click that and it says correct what you know tweeting things while they're happening is much more engaging with your fans than

00:32:19   Tweeting things after the fact well, so the question is if you had gotten these quote-unquote wrong

00:32:25   What would have happened? I don't have a verified account

00:32:28   I thought about trying that with the third one and you know and the third one's the same

00:32:32   It was like is it better you know the difference is is it better to tweet with pictures or not with pictures?

00:32:36   It's like you know hanging out with something something

00:32:39   And then there's a pic dot twitter dot something URL and the other one is just hanging out with someone someone

00:32:45   And I thought of obviously the one of the picture is supposed to be the one I thought about clicking the other one

00:32:49   I think that they just tell you the answer. I'm guessing I don't think it's a test and they're not gonna let you in

00:32:54   I think you click the wrong one and they say wrong

00:32:57   It's actually better to tweet with pictures and now you're allowed to be verified

00:33:00   That's weird like well first of all the verification process is weird because you like you would imagine. They're going like

00:33:07   Sorted by a number of followers descending and they just got down to like the hundred K's or whatever you're at

00:33:12   All right

00:33:13   Like they started with like the 20 million people like Ashton Kutcher or whatever and they're working their way down

00:33:17   So the poor team or guy or whatever whose job it is to verify accounts like boy now

00:33:21   Really scraping the bottom of the barrel because they're done with the actual like real

00:33:25   celebrities with millions and millions of followers and they're down to like the Mac nerd guys and

00:33:29   Then like so how do they know that this is the John Gruber kind of this?

00:33:32   It was just because they're Twitter guys and they were also happen to be computer nerds and they know who you are

00:33:36   Yeah, I guess so. I can only guess. There wasn't really any sort of actual, like if

00:33:44   @Gruber had been run by someone for years impersonating me, there was no, you know,

00:33:50   no, I mean, I don't know. I don't know how they would do it.

00:33:52   I mean, well, verified as being who? Like, say it was run by years. Maybe they're not

00:33:56   impersonating you. Maybe it's just some other guy named John Gruber. And like, you know,

00:33:59   all that, all your vari-, like, what are you even verifying? Because it's weird to me.

00:34:03   If there is a famous celebrity, internationally known celebrity like Tom Cruise,

00:34:07   you want to verify that the account that says Tom Cruise is really the account of Tom Cruise.

00:34:13   But when you get down to people who like everyone in the world doesn't know who they are,

00:34:17   what are you even verifying?

00:34:19   Yeah, I'm not quite sure.

00:34:21   What I think is you're about to be monetized. That's what I think.

00:34:24   For the bill, it's going to be like, "Hey, John Gruber, verified celebrity.

00:34:27   Would you like to keep your verified account at Twitter? Well, consider sending it."

00:34:30   I mean, actually that may be welcome, you know.

00:34:33   Finally, you have a business model.

00:34:35   I'll pay you.

00:34:36   Just stop trying to show ads.

00:34:38   I don't know.

00:34:39   I don't know.

00:34:41   The other thing I don't know and I haven't had a chance because it just happened a few

00:34:43   hours ago, but I'm wondering now if it's going to be – if it's harder for me to reset my

00:34:47   password.

00:34:50   I don't know.

00:34:51   Like, all I can think is that this has something to do with the Honan thing and that they like

00:34:55   went and found people who are similar to Matt Honan who don't have verified accounts and

00:34:59   or verify them.

00:35:00   Yeah, but how does that help?

00:35:02   Yeah, I guess you have to try that.

00:35:04   All that would do is reinforce when the hackers take over your account.

00:35:07   Like, no, that's totally John Gruber saying those terrible things.

00:35:09   It's use a verified account.

00:35:11   Well, presumably being verified is extremely rare.

00:35:14   I would guess a sliver, a tiny little sliver of a thousandth of a percent of Twitter accounts.

00:35:21   Because you can't choose.

00:35:22   There's no way.

00:35:23   You can't go in and ask to be verified.

00:35:25   There is no way.

00:35:26   That's what I'm saying.

00:35:27   Starting with the celebrities and they just say they just sort by followers

00:35:30   And you're you're still in the very tiny tippy edge of that long tail out there, right?

00:35:35   but it's so rare that I'm wondering that if you call up with a

00:35:38   account password thing and and you know

00:35:41   Whoever you get or whoever helps people with with those type of problems with Twitter that if it's shows up as verified

00:35:47   It goes into like a white gloves department

00:35:50   Yeah, or they ask you the same questions about which tweet is better and you say shut up and reset my password

00:35:56   I don't know

00:35:57   Yeah, do you like the dick bar?

00:35:59   Yes, or no one of the questions they ask you

00:36:02   What's your favorite hashtag?

00:36:04   Yeah, I guess

00:36:05   Speaking of making money into the app net thing like the same same reason we're all desperate for something to happen

00:36:12   There is because we don't see Twitter

00:36:13   Being able or willing to make money in the way we think they should and like I made a joke about verified account

00:36:19   Costing you money, but like isn't that isn't that how you would prefer to pay for Twitter

00:36:24   Yeah, versus having to see ads yeah or something or all third-party clients dying

00:36:29   I mean you've got to make that choice you'd say you pay in a second

00:36:32   I was on the fence with I did I signed up for apt on that soon after it was announced. I became a backer

00:36:37   But I was on the fence about promoting it on daring fireball, but I just did right before we started recording tonight

00:36:44   I actually linked it up and encouraged people to sign up because then I saw their spam email got to you

00:36:51   And that actually I did that actually had nothing to do with that. I've actually been watching it

00:36:56   Through I don't forget how long ago they launched it, but I've been watching it and thinking if it gets close

00:37:02   Maybe I'll see if I can help him out a little but I'm a guy and I know I've helped Kickstarter projects out before

00:37:08   I don't think that I can even come close to helping raise that they're like $300,000 sure

00:37:13   Yeah, this is the email said is that everybody who currently backs a service got three of their friends to sign up

00:37:19   They'll make it and that's that's a tall order with a few days to go

00:37:22   And I don't know what they're gonna do

00:37:26   It's a weird thing and and I know that you've talked about it on

00:37:30   Hypercritical you did talk about apt on that. I know you talked about

00:37:33   Along with penny arcade and stuff. Yep, and it is weird. It's a weird situation a it's weird because it's not even really

00:37:42   Kickstarter they like built their own

00:37:45   Kickstarter because they had to they weren't they didn't fit in the Kickstarter rules, right? Is that why they did it?

00:37:50   I didn't yeah, that's in the fact

00:37:51   I said basically we would have been a Kickstarter but we can't because it says you can't use Kickstarter to start a business and that's what

00:37:55   We're doing. So right. That's that

00:37:57   hmm

00:38:00   And you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that if they fall short that they're just gonna pack it in and throw it out and not

00:38:06   Do anything? I don't know what I don't know what their plan B is

00:38:09   Well, that was that I convinced a friend of mine to sign up for it today. In fact doing my part to

00:38:14   to help them reach their funding goal.

00:38:17   And what I thought the deal was,

00:38:19   and I didn't bother to check

00:38:20   'cause I guess I don't care enough,

00:38:21   is that if they don't reach their goal,

00:38:23   nobody gets charged.

00:38:24   So like I pledged $50 or whatever,

00:38:26   but that just means if we get our goal,

00:38:28   then we charge everyone's credit cards or whatever.

00:38:30   But if we don't get our goal, no one loses any money.

00:38:32   That's the secret Kickstarter is that

00:38:34   it eliminates the risk

00:38:35   that you're dumping your money down a hole.

00:38:37   It's like you're excited by the fact

00:38:39   that they're gonna reach their goal.

00:38:40   But if they don't, yeah, you do not add any money.

00:38:43   That was one of the interesting things about the penny arcade thing is that their big goal

00:38:46   was so far down, but to be fully funded, it was like 250K and they reached that in the

00:38:51   first day or two.

00:38:52   But that's not what everybody wanted.

00:38:53   So as soon as they reached that first limit, everyone's money is gone.

00:38:57   And then people aren't really motivated to...

00:38:59   It would rather have, "Wow, this audacious goal.

00:39:02   Let's everyone put their money towards it.

00:39:03   And if we get it, we'll be so excited that we won't care that we all just got charged."

00:39:06   Versus, "Everyone give me your money and I would like $500,000, but if I reach $1,000,

00:39:12   you're all getting charged."

00:39:13   That scares people away. I should probably revise my little write-up and emphasize that part that yeah

00:39:18   Kicking in 50 bucks is is definitely not and it you know 50 bucks is not a cup of coffee

00:39:23   That's that's a significant. You know right no. I mean. I don't know maybe there's somebody out there

00:39:28   I guess there's some people who throw 50 bucks around like loose change, but you know 50 bucks to me is something you really think about

00:39:34   But you're it is sort of no risk in terms of you're only gonna get charged if you're going to get a

00:39:42   a app.net service that will work. You're not going to throw your $50 in and, ooh, they fell short,

00:39:49   your $50 is gone and you don't even get the app.net. Well, before you write that up,

00:39:53   you should actually look it up because I didn't bother looking it up either. You go to their

00:39:56   website and look at the little fine print and it says what actually happens here. And the thing is,

00:40:00   even if they're fully funded and they get 500K, that still doesn't guarantee that their service

00:40:04   will ever come to the hill of beans. You know, like they could make the service and then no one

00:40:08   shows up and it just kind of fizzles away. But the fact that we're all willing to put

00:40:12   money behind this thing means that we want – not so much that we want something like

00:40:16   this but it's like we wish Twitter had a monetization strategy that made us feel more

00:40:21   comfortable. We all hate the scary stuff with the third-party clients going away. We don't

00:40:25   like ads. We didn't like the dick bar. There's so much about Twitter that's just bugging

00:40:30   us.

00:40:31   The way that in all of their first-party interfaces, the web, their apps and everything where they're

00:40:37   putting all this emphasis on the trends.

00:40:40   And also the card interface where you have these expanded tweets with all sorts of other

00:40:45   data.

00:40:46   Right, right.

00:40:47   Where all of a sudden one tweet can take up the whole length of your screen.

00:40:49   Yeah, it's like a little miniature webpage.

00:40:52   That's not what we want out of that.

00:40:54   The only time I want that is when Merlin Mann tweets one with a bunch of returns.

00:40:59   Once a month I'm going to put 40 carriage returns in here before the punchline tweet.

00:41:03   Yeah.

00:41:04   Yeah, he likes the vertical space.

00:41:06   He's a small man, though.

00:41:08   He may be compensating.

00:41:09   Well, and the big difference – there is actually a big difference in there, no joking

00:41:12   aside, which is that if that gag from Merlin truly annoys you enough, you just one –

00:41:17   You just unfollow him.

00:41:18   Your one click away from – the unfollow button is right there.

00:41:21   Whereas when promoted tweets and embedded – what do they call them?

00:41:25   Cards?

00:41:26   Whatever they call them.

00:41:27   Yeah, I think it's called cards.

00:41:28   Right.

00:41:29   If they annoy you, tough luck.

00:41:30   That's coming right out of Twitter HQ.

00:41:32   I think the cards are also for like,

00:41:34   say you have someone that you follow and they post,

00:41:37   they say, "Check out this funny YouTube video."

00:41:39   Instead of that being like a two line text email

00:41:42   with a link, now it'll embed the YouTube video

00:41:46   right there in your timeline

00:41:47   if you're using one of their clients.

00:41:49   And you're like, "I don't want, I like that guy.

00:41:51   "I like his links, I like the videos he provides,

00:41:52   "but I don't want that video embedded

00:41:54   "and to start downloading and taking up seven inches

00:41:57   "of vertical screen space on my device.

00:41:59   "Like that's not how I wanna consume Twitter."

00:42:01   Because that just start like,

00:42:02   What if they just started previewing all web pages that way?

00:42:05   People are writing less than 140 characters

00:42:07   and what they're producing is, you know,

00:42:09   on an iPad an entire screen full of crap.

00:42:11   It's like, I'll tap the link if I wanna see it.

00:42:13   Don't inline it.

00:42:14   Like that type of interface where individual websites

00:42:17   pay to have tweets that reference their URLs

00:42:20   expanded into this big monster thing.

00:42:22   Like say IMDB paid them

00:42:23   and anytime I ever mentioned Tom Cruise,

00:42:25   it put four inches of information about Tom Cruise

00:42:27   and a little headshot and links to other stuff

00:42:29   underneath it.

00:42:30   And like, you don't wanna unfollow somebody

00:42:31   They mentioned Tom Cruise, but now all their tweets are annoying the hell out of you because they because of this IMDB connection

00:42:36   That's the Twitter's monetization strategy don't charge the customers charge these websites to crap up everyone else's timeline, but their stuff all right

00:42:44   And I like you know there's certain ways that tweet tweets obviously even in the third-party clients that we like they've they've grown past

00:42:53   Just pure text

00:42:55   Like most most of the clients I know of like if you embed a picture from known services

00:43:01   because the picture can be right there in the tweet, but they don't show you the whole

00:43:04   thing. It's always like a thumbnail, right? At least the ones I use, like Tweetbot and

00:43:08   -- well, I just use Tweetbot, really.

00:43:11   >> And that's up to the client software.

00:43:13   >> Right. It's up to -- that's the other thing. It's up to the client software, and they can

00:43:17   add a feature. So, like, Tweetbot -- and I think -- but I think, like, you know, I think

00:43:21   Tweety used to do this in Twitter's client, is they'll just show a little thumbnail of

00:43:24   the image, and if you want to see it, you tap it, and then you see it big. But that

00:43:28   if you're just scrolling through your tweets, even a tweet with a pictured link in it isn't

00:43:32   going to take up more room than a regular tweet.

00:43:36   That's the Twitter's big thing about making a consistent experience.

00:43:39   What that means is like in the current scenario, if you don't like how Tweetbot puts a thumbnail

00:43:43   image in because it makes your timeline too big and annoying, you try a different client

00:43:47   that doesn't do that, right?

00:43:48   You have choice, whereas consistent client experience means no, no, no, if the clients

00:43:53   even exist, they don't get to choose how that appears.

00:43:55   We choose how it appears and all clients must obey.

00:43:57   Like on this Twitter cards page, it's dev/Twitter.com/docs/cards.

00:44:01   It shows someone linking to a New York Times story.

00:44:04   And the thing, the tweet they show is, "That's a whole lot of people..." and then a New York

00:44:09   Times short URL, right?

00:44:11   But then underneath it, it has the headline, the byline, a picture, a link to the New York

00:44:15   Times, and the first paragraph of the story.

00:44:18   And the date, the thing, you know, like, "Why?

00:44:21   If I want to go read that story, I'll go read it."

00:44:24   But if every single client did that, I mean, I would not like that because a lot of the

00:44:29   tweets that I see have links in them, and I don't want to see the links in line like

00:44:33   that.

00:44:34   And I would be very upset if I had no choice.

00:44:36   Well, it would ruin – it just would spoil what I think Twitter is.

00:44:40   I mean, it really would start to lose the whole appeal to me.

00:44:47   And I know that that Michael Sippy blog post from a month back or so that sort of gave

00:44:52   everybody the chills about the direction they're heading with this where he reiterated that

00:44:58   the way they see their developer relationships going forward isn't with developers writing

00:45:02   client apps that show you Twitter. It's developers creating, I don't even know what they want

00:45:08   to call it, but it's these embedded iframes more or less that you put inside tweets.

00:45:12   Yeah, it's like an RSS reader only you always have to use the preview pane and that like

00:45:21   Like you don't have just a view of the articles.

00:45:23   Every single thing you see expands out to some big blob of it.

00:45:27   It's basically forcing you to go to a web page every time you read a tweet.

00:45:31   And it's a way for the people on the receiving end of those links to shove their crap in

00:45:35   your face.

00:45:36   Like, "Oh, websites come and develop to our interface, and then anytime anyone references

00:45:40   a URL anywhere, you can just shove a big giant square of stuff in their face.

00:45:43   But whatever you want there, and we'll charge you money for that."

00:45:46   It's just terrible.

00:45:47   So for anybody out there who's on the fence and who agrees with me and you, John, that

00:45:54   just don't like the direction Twitter's going with their relationship with developers and

00:45:59   the way that they're -- the monetization strategy that they're clearly taking, the only thing

00:46:06   that you can do about it, the one and only thing that you can do as a user that would

00:46:10   have any -- you know, sure, you're just one user against 100 million who are using it,

00:46:14   But the only thing you can do is throw your support to some kind of competitor.

00:46:19   That's the only thing you can do that would have any kind of effect.

00:46:21   You know, complaining about it isn't going to do anything.

00:46:24   Of course, when I talked about app.net, I had all these pessimistic things to say about

00:46:28   it because don't you kind of get that feeling that the reason Twitter is doing this is that

00:46:32   the only people who care are nerds like us, and maybe there's not enough of us to make

00:46:36   a difference?

00:46:37   Right.

00:46:38   No, I do have that fear.

00:46:39   Absolutely.

00:46:40   And even if there was enough of us, like, because in the beginning, in, you know, 2006,

00:46:44   2007 like Twitter was just nerds like us and there was a definitely different vibe back then but now

00:46:49   If even if we got critical mass to go over app net it got funded all the nerds went over there

00:46:55   And they had some sort of gateway and clients could read both of them and murder like you can imagine a scenario where nerds are

00:47:00   On app net but like wouldn't you miss?

00:47:02   The the pop culture celebrity people that you happen to follow on Twitter not that I follow a lot of them

00:47:09   But it would be weird like oh, we're over there

00:47:11   But everything else is happening in that other place. Twitter has just become so pervasive like on

00:47:16   television news even which drives me nuts for like the noise reads tweets and stuff like that, but it's like that is the network for

00:47:22   Everybody and we'd be on this other little thing

00:47:25   That's just never gonna get critical mass and even though it would feel cool and we'd have our own little thing

00:47:28   We'd feel kind of like left out, you know, and it's kind of

00:47:33   I'm of two minds about this this the bias maybe it's the same type of thing where it's up

00:47:39   We had Myspace and Friendster and all those other things.

00:47:43   Every time one of those looked like it was dominant, something else came along and wiped

00:47:46   it out.

00:47:47   Now we have Facebook.

00:47:48   My big fear with Facebook is, unlike Friendster and Myspace, Facebook has just gotten too

00:47:52   darn big and now it's too big to fail.

00:47:56   Something can't come along and wipe out Facebook the same way Facebook did to Myspace because

00:48:01   it's reached some...

00:48:03   It's gone over some line.

00:48:04   It's just too darn big.

00:48:05   My fear about Twitter is the same thing.

00:48:07   Even if something better comes along, it's too late.

00:48:10   Twitter is just too darn big and it's going to take a really long time.

00:48:13   It's kind of like Windows.

00:48:14   Windows got so big that it didn't matter how much better something was, you basically had

00:48:17   to wait for it to become irrelevant and the future to be in mobile and Microsoft to not

00:48:22   be there.

00:48:23   And then that's what makes Windows go away.

00:48:24   It's not because Mac operating system was better and Windows goes away.

00:48:27   It goes away because who cares about desktop operating systems anymore?

00:48:30   We only care about mobile and the people who went in mobile were not Microsoft.

00:48:33   So is that what has to happen here for Twitter and Facebook to, you know, nothing can defeat

00:48:38   them until they become irrelevant?

00:48:40   That's scary.

00:48:41   I don't know.

00:48:42   Maybe defeat is the wrong term.

00:48:44   My optimistic take on app.net would be something along the lines of the comparison between

00:48:50   commercial TV and HBO.

00:48:54   And the idea is that I think most people, I think a lot of the people who don't really

00:48:58   like the way Twitter is growing also have a lot of complaints about commercial TV, the

00:49:03   themselves, the number of commercials that are shown, and the just the way that the nature

00:49:11   of commercial TV sort of has a never-ending decade after decade drive towards lowest common

00:49:18   denominator content. Right? I mean, I think a lot of the shows that are on TV now, the

00:49:25   reality type shows, are not really even any further, they're not, they're even worse maybe

00:49:31   then like the dystopian future oh my god look how bad TV is from like RoboCop

00:49:37   right yeah great the accuracy al my balls right you know idiocracy is still

00:49:42   a little bit out ahead but well the America's funny time videos was

00:49:45   basically out my balls and that was like in the 90s right right but as the years

00:49:50   go on that the idiocracy future idiocratic future doesn't seem as

00:49:55   far-fetched, it seems less and less far-fetched as time goes on.

00:50:01   Well that's the case where I think it's not so much that entertainment is appealing to

00:50:07   base instincts, because that's been around forever, and I think there's the counter-examples

00:50:12   like Lost was on ABC and no one's going to say that that was trashy reality show, that's

00:50:17   the opposite of high-budget, single artistic vision, high production value, stuff like

00:50:24   But the thing about people hate about TV is that there's an entrenched business model

00:50:28   that hasn't kept up with technology and it's difficult to dislodge that.

00:50:32   So what we're looking for on HBO is like, one example is that, well, on HBO shows, they

00:50:37   can make shows for adults because they're not burdened by these legacy things when the

00:50:40   airways belong to the people and you had to license them through the government, but then

00:50:44   you had to have decency rule, like all that stuff that burdens the networks doesn't burden

00:50:49   HBO.

00:50:51   And so that's why you get content that's more appealing there, because what can you really

00:50:54   do?

00:50:55   Within the confines of the decency rules of network television, you're limited in terms

00:50:58   of programming for adults, because not all adults want just everything that's Pollyanna

00:51:02   all the time.

00:51:06   And it's the same situation with Twitter.

00:51:07   I don't know if there is...

00:51:11   What is the equivalent of being able to show nudity and curse and having people pay you

00:51:16   directly lots of money?

00:51:19   What is the equivalent of that in App.net?

00:51:21   I think the equivalent is more about the overall experience that you're not being badgered

00:51:26   by promotional garbage and that there aren't idiots.

00:51:36   I think maybe the equivalent...

00:51:37   It's a hard analogy because it's a social network versus just TV broadcast.

00:51:42   But there aren't going to be as many idiots on App.net as there are on Twitter because

00:51:48   Because at least for now, it seems like the plan is that everybody who's on there has

00:51:51   to pay at least something to get in.

00:51:52   So you're not going to have...

00:51:55   There's not going to be idiots there that you can assume that there's a higher level

00:51:58   of discourse.

00:51:59   I mean, one thing...

00:52:00   I mean, and it's super, super early days.

00:52:01   I mean, in fact, I mean, they just let me...

00:52:03   I got in today.

00:52:04   I'm in on the alpha.

00:52:07   I don't know how many users are in there already.

00:52:09   But I posted one...

00:52:10   I was going to call it a tweet, but I guess you have to call it a post to app.net.

00:52:15   And the post ID was like 8,200 something.

00:52:18   So there's only been, you know, just with all the tests that they've, you know, whatever

00:52:22   else, I don't even know how many of those are from actual users and how many are automated

00:52:26   things that they've tested while building the thing out.

00:52:28   But there's only been 8,000 posts so far.

00:52:30   Whereas Twitter is up at like, you know, 12 quadrillion.

00:52:33   You're already at 8,000.

00:52:34   I knew I should have checked that out.

00:52:36   I got the email too and I'm like, "I'll check it out."

00:52:38   But that's not my user ID.

00:52:39   It's my, it was the tweet ID or post ID.

00:52:41   I have no idea what my user ID is.

00:52:43   Well, I guess the equivalent is that no ads.

00:52:49   There's no ads on HBO and there'd be no ads on the Twitter replacement thing and there'd

00:52:54   be no ads and no fear of ads because everyone pays for it outside of my game.

00:52:57   And it's not just ad ads either because clearly the stuff like having embedded New York Times

00:53:04   stories show up as a card instead of just a URL, it's not really an ad but there's a

00:53:10   financial thing in there where they're getting money, they're sharing money with the New

00:53:13   York Times to have New York Times stories treated specially, and there's not going to

00:53:17   be anything of that.

00:53:18   You know?

00:53:19   It's not, you know, so advertising is the wrong word for that, but it's favoring the

00:53:24   interests of somebody other than me for financial reasons.

00:53:27   Me as the user.

00:53:28   Yeah, their big thrust is like whatever makes our service more desirable to customers, that's

00:53:34   what we'll spend all our time on.

00:53:36   features, making it like whatever users of the service want, that's what we communicate

00:53:42   with. Whereas you get the feeling that people on Twitter are not worried about what the

00:53:46   users of their system want. They're more worried about how do we get money from somebody to

00:53:50   keep us in business before the VC runs out.

00:53:52   Right. So my thought too is like HBO. Most people don't have HBO. Everybody watches commercial

00:53:58   TV, but only some people have HBO. I'm guessing at this point I probably wouldn't abandon

00:54:05   Twitter for App.net, but maybe I would use App.net as the thing I'm logged into all day

00:54:09   and only check Twitter once in a while. But in the same way that when you get HBO, it's

00:54:13   not like your commercial TV turns off.

00:54:15   Yeah. The thing I wonder about Twitter is they have all these... They've been hinting

00:54:20   at the, "I wouldn't write third-party clients that I were you. If you're gonna write clients,

00:54:24   don't write a general purpose one." They've been making scary, vague moves in that direction

00:54:31   for a long time, but they never actually pull the trigger.

00:54:34   And I kept thinking, how are you going to stop somebody?

00:54:38   I guess you can use OAuth on the API to reject clients, but that's like an arms race in terms

00:54:43   of illicit Twitter clients.

00:54:45   And what I'm thinking of is, if App.net took off and was popular, wouldn't there be hacked

00:54:53   clients that merge Twitter and App.net into a single thing or some sort of proxy gateway?

00:54:59   I guess it's within their power to reject requests that aren't authenticated with some

00:55:03   digitally signed.

00:55:04   But that's just that arms race of client side software versus server side.

00:55:10   You don't want the nerds on the other side of that to be your enemy.

00:55:13   I'm not saying it can't be done, but that's a lot of time and energy fighting against

00:55:17   that.

00:55:18   And really, do they really care?

00:55:19   Was it you who came up with the stats for what percentage of Twitter users use third-party

00:55:25   clients?

00:55:26   asked about it and somebody who reads during fireball linked to you know

00:55:28   figured it out I think he I think is his methodology was pretty pretty good he

00:55:34   he like slurped like a million random tweets from the there's still some way

00:55:39   that you can get that you can get like just show me like tweets to show me a

00:55:44   random tweets that people are tweeting from around the world and he grabbed

00:55:46   like a million of them and analyzed where they were from and it's you know

00:55:50   the the biggest hole in his methodology is it because there's no other way to

00:55:55   get the real information, what people are using to see Twitter.

00:55:58   What you can do is you can see what people are using to post to Twitter, which is different

00:56:03   because I would guess that there's an awful lot of people out there, now that Twitter

00:56:07   has hit, like you said, CNN shows hashtags 24 hours a day.

00:56:12   I think there's an awful lot of people out there with accounts that have two followers

00:56:16   and they've only tweeted three times themselves, but they actually do use Twitter.

00:56:21   They use it and just consume.

00:56:23   Just pure consumption.

00:56:24   It's like something that they look at but don't post to.

00:56:28   But I would guess that would only skew it more towards the official Twitter clients

00:56:31   and the Twitter website, not less.

00:56:33   Yeah, and do you remember what the number was?

00:56:35   It was like 23 percent, 20 percent.

00:56:37   I remember thinking it was way higher than I thought it would be.

00:56:40   I think it was close to like 20 or something.

00:56:42   I would have thought it would be like 3 percent.

00:56:44   And I think that's skewed by the fact that people who create content and have a lot of

00:56:49   followers are more likely to need something like that.

00:56:53   For example, just as an – and I have never seen the appeal of this software, but I know

00:56:57   that a lot of celebrity people use TweetDeck.

00:57:00   That's a way for them to be able to – TweetDeck lets you have some chance of managing an awareness

00:57:09   of people who are talking to or about you when there are so many people.

00:57:12   It's the same reason you don't use Unified Timeline, because your @ replies, anytime

00:57:16   you say anything, would just swamp your ability to read the three posts from the people you

00:57:20   reply to.

00:57:21   So can you imagine if you had 20 million followers or something they were just it just becomes untenable so I think

00:57:26   Tweet bot is a way

00:57:28   Like I don't even know if they look at their replies and then just doing like a bunch of canned searches

00:57:32   You know and then they can kind of get a big overall picture

00:57:35   But but yeah for someone who just wants to read Twitter tweet deck is not that's a tool for the Twitter power user or whatever

00:57:40   You want to call them, but there's also you know they are pulling the plug on some people

00:57:44   I know that they just pulled the plug on Instagram connecting to Twitter

00:57:48   Well, I mean they got bossed by Facebook right and you know famously, you know people have observed that Jack Dorsey, you know Twitter

00:57:55   Inventor and CEO or whatever his title is. I guess he's not the CEO, but you know, he's like chief designer at Twitter

00:58:02   Had been a active Instagram user and hasn't posted an Instagram since their Facebook acquisition

00:58:14   But ultimately though you know and you can say well it makes sense that they'd pull the plug on you know

00:58:19   Somebody owned by Facebook or whatever, but really it's like you said though

00:58:22   It's just an API you know if your API is there you know I mean they're gonna play favorites like that

00:58:27   I wouldn't be surprised if they started doing it to

00:58:29   Desktop clients yeah, I mean I've won. They'll end up with I would imagine if they do

00:58:34   Lock it down is similar to what Apple uses for push notifications and iCloud and everything where there's like a cryptographic

00:58:39   connection between like you are allowed to send push notifications and

00:58:44   And the only reason you're allowed is because it's, you know, configured through your developer

00:58:48   ID and connected to your Apple ID, and we have the information about you, and if you

00:58:53   violate it, we pull the plug on you, and the barrier to getting up and running again is

00:58:57   making a new fake Apple ID from a different IP address and pay the $99 again and get everything

00:59:02   configured and deploy a new version of an application from a different Apple ID and

00:59:06   make your customers download on the store, and then we lock you down again.

00:59:08   And so like, you could go cat and mouse like that, or you could just try to crack the encryption

00:59:12   somehow or whatever, but I don't know who is more motivated to stop that.

00:59:17   I haven't seen any cases of Apple's push notification thing being hacked or gained, because I don't

00:59:23   think there's any financial gain for that.

00:59:26   There's probably not any financial gain for breaking through the prohibition on third-party

00:59:32   Twitter clients, but there's definitely geek, like, "There's no financial gain, but I really

00:59:36   want to use a third-party client."

00:59:38   So maybe the hackers are just motivated to find their way to crack it just for the hell

00:59:42   of it right now yeah I don't know but anyway I'm a little depressed though

00:59:47   because I kind of was rooting for app dotnet hopefully hopefully maybe you

00:59:51   know maybe maybe they'll turn it around in the last five days I don't know what

00:59:55   do you think about what did you think about when I was my son like a points

01:00:00   about out the net is remember the whole big thing with a robo not robo tweeting

01:00:02   but the wanting for you to tweet and stuff like that yeah they were very

01:00:06   quick to reply to him at my point when I talked about in the show it's not so

01:00:09   much that they did this because they've responded quickly and they were cool

01:00:12   about it and everything like that.

01:00:13   Just that it gives you that doubt that like, why did they think this would be okay?

01:00:18   Like it makes you question their judgment.

01:00:19   It doesn't make you question like their motivation and like they're clearly like they're motivated

01:00:24   for the right reasons and they really want, our goals are aligned with their goals, really

01:00:28   want to do the right thing.

01:00:29   But it's like, man, how did something like that slip by?

01:00:32   Not that it's that important, but it's like, am I being fooled here or do we really not

01:00:36   share the same values, you know?

01:00:38   And that's-

01:00:39   Right.

01:00:40   And what you're talking about is when you first signed up, I don't even know what they

01:00:41   do anymore. But when I signed up like a day or two in, part of the appeal of signing up

01:00:47   was that you get to reserve your existing Twitter username. But the way that they did

01:00:53   it was they needed you to tweet like a pre-generated tweet that said something corny like, "I'm

01:01:00   supporting app.net. You can too. Here's the URL and there's a hashtag in there." And you

01:01:06   tweeted that and you're tweeting that was what their bot would look for to see the tweet

01:01:12   and then say, OK, this guy did it. And there's like a little like a little unique token in

01:01:16   there too somewhere. And then they would say, OK, so now at Gruber is is verified as a backer

01:01:22   of app dotnet. So this guy has the at Gruber name reserved for our thing, too. But that's

01:01:28   cheesy. I mean, you know, I don't I never tweet hashtags and I don't I don't like anything

01:01:34   like that that asks you to tweet on their behalf.

01:01:38   Yeah, and that's…

01:01:39   Because I remember there was one time one of those Mac software bundles had a thing

01:01:43   like that where it was like you got like a free app if you gave them your Twitter name.

01:01:48   Instead of getting 10 apps for 50 bucks, you got 11 apps for 50 bucks.

01:01:51   It's an even better deal.

01:01:52   Just give us your Twitter name and people are doing it.

01:01:55   And all of a sudden your Twitter stream was just full of like 37 people who all were promoting

01:02:00   the such and such Mac bundle.

01:02:01   And it's like, man, that is so cheesy and just wrong.

01:02:05   And exactly, I had that thought too.

01:02:08   It really was like a bad taste in the mouth, as like my first experience with App.net.

01:02:14   Yeah, and again, it didn't make me question the point of the project or anything they

01:02:18   say about it.

01:02:19   It just made me think about, like, you want to feel when you're supporting someone like

01:02:24   this that they share your values and tastes, I guess.

01:02:28   And part of it is just misunderstanding and an experience because you didn't have to tweet.

01:02:32   I think even from the very beginning, you didn't have to tweet that corny signing promotional

01:02:35   thing.

01:02:36   You just needed to have the few bits of information in there.

01:02:38   But they didn't make that clear.

01:02:39   And to that credit, they didn't do the thing that so many sites do where they want you

01:02:43   to sign up and you go to the OAuth screen or whatever.

01:02:46   It's like, "This company would like to read tweets in your timeline, see your followers,

01:02:53   and there's always tweet as you."

01:02:54   And it's like, "Hell no.

01:02:56   Hell no.

01:02:57   Who would ever say yes to that?

01:02:59   And yet so many people do, because as soon as you check that, you know two seconds later

01:03:03   there's going to be one of those blah, blah, blah signed up for the whatever.

01:03:08   And this was better in that it didn't want the power to tweet as you, which is crazy.

01:03:13   No one would say yes to it.

01:03:14   It just wanted you to tweet something on their behalf.

01:03:19   And part of it is like social promotional like in the meaning.

01:03:21   Like if we could just get all these guys to tweet to each other.

01:03:24   But it was so corny.

01:03:25   And that's why I was so shocked to see it from, I think, you and Marco.

01:03:28   I was like, "Has someone hacked their account?"

01:03:29   Because I know you guys don't sign up for things that they'll let you tweet as you.

01:03:32   It's funny.

01:03:33   I got a couple.

01:03:34   You were not the only one.

01:03:35   I got a couple of, "Hey, was your Twitter account hacked?"

01:03:38   Like just not a bunch, but at least more than one.

01:03:41   I got two or three like, "Dude, is your Twitter account hacked?"

01:03:45   I remember Guy, Guy English, his came out and he immediately tweeted an apology.

01:03:51   He was like, "I'm really sorry about that last tweet, but I'm kind of hoping to see

01:03:54   this."

01:03:55   He apologized on both his and App.net's behalf.

01:04:00   By the time I decided to fund it, I'd seen all you guys do this, and I had read enough

01:04:06   about the backlash that you didn't have to tweet what they told you to tweet, and so

01:04:10   I just replaced that text with something scolding them for doing this.

01:04:16   One of your tweets is featured on their homepage.

01:04:20   tweet is not. But like I said, I still funded them because I want the same thing that they

01:04:27   want. And no one else is like... This is what I was talking about earlier today when I was

01:04:31   talking to my friend and trying to convince him to fund this thing. It's kind of weird

01:04:35   to me that we want this thing, but the traditional way is, I guess, you max out all your credit

01:04:42   cards or you get a business loan or you launch it at being partially supported by some existing

01:04:47   line of business. We're in this weird time period where the thing to do is not to do

01:04:53   any of those other traditional ways of starting up a business that requires capital and time.

01:04:57   Like we need a certain amount of time to make this product to try to get, you know, we're

01:05:01   going to start a business and we got to start from nothing. So you need seed capital, you

01:05:04   need to go into massive debt. Those are the traditional ways to do it. Now we have this

01:05:08   new way, which is, hey, if there's a bunch of other people who want this, get the money

01:05:10   up front. And it's exciting and interesting and it's the Kickstarter phenomenon. But part

01:05:15   Part of me says, "Isn't there someone who wants to do something like App.net who either

01:05:19   has the capital to do it or can be a business that can be funded in traditional ways?"

01:05:24   I guess the traditional ways suck.

01:05:26   Getting a business loan sucks.

01:05:27   Maxing out all your credit cards, I can imagine that sucking too.

01:05:30   So many businesses have been started that way.

01:05:33   Or start from nothing, like grad students who have crappy retail jobs doing it in their

01:05:37   spare time until it takes off.

01:05:39   There's so many other ways that businesses start.

01:05:41   I don't like feeling like, "Oh, if App.net doesn't make it, well, that was the one way

01:05:45   way this could have happened. There's so many other ways I feel like this could happen.

01:05:48   Not that I wish them—don't wish them well, but if this doesn't make it, I hope someone

01:05:54   else out there looks at this and says, "Well, there was a lot of people who wanted to give

01:05:58   money to make this happen." Maybe the same people will say, "All right, well, we've

01:06:02   got to give all this money back, or we can't charge these people." But maybe we'll find

01:06:06   some other way to do this, because clearly there's, you know, whatever, $200,000 worth

01:06:09   of people who think this is a good idea.

01:06:11   Right. And the other thing too is it really does require some imagination up front to

01:06:15   imagine that it could be how it could make the world a better place if it existed. Whereas

01:06:19   once it was off the ground, and there were I mean, and clearly, like, you know, if they're

01:06:24   already even if they don't raise another dollar, they've already got $220,000 raised or something

01:06:29   like that, which at like 50 or 100 bucks apiece is, you know, thousands of people that if

01:06:36   there were thousands of smart people on there, then and they were using it already. People

01:06:40   who were like, "Well, maybe I should sign up too," wouldn't have to imagine what it

01:06:43   was like. They could see, "Well, look, here's people writing clever posts on this thing.

01:06:48   I can actually see the appeal." It's a lot more easier to get people to sign up once

01:06:53   it exists than before it exists.

01:06:56   Yeah, and I'd be willing to say, I wonder if they asked everybody, again, I still haven't

01:07:00   looked this up on their side, but if they said, "Look, guys, we didn't make our funding

01:07:02   goal. How would you feel about just giving us the money you pledged anyway?" I would

01:07:06   say, "Sure, go ahead." I wouldn't be grudging the money because I think, like, whatever

01:07:10   If if you get this thing out there and we start using it and you can actually make it cool

01:07:14   Then you can win based on your features like it's you know, make a cool thing that I can show people

01:07:18   Hey check this out. Isn't this cool add features that Twitter doesn't have it doesn't have time to have or

01:07:23   You know or just make it a better experience in Twitter

01:07:26   It almost would be better if they waited to do this project until after Twitter screwed everybody and killed the third-party clients because then they'd

01:07:32   Get funded. I'll tell you. Yeah, I do think that I do wonder about I've had that same thought too that

01:07:38   And maybe just one more like a straw that broke the camel's back type thing like where the next big rumored

01:07:44   Breakup is flipboard, you know where the flipboard CEO resigned from Twitter's board was on Twitter's board, but now he's off and

01:07:51   You know like a week or two ago as of a week or two ago, and there's I know Dustin Curtis

01:07:57   Reported it. I've heard the same thing. I can't you know, I don't really report rumors, but I've heard the same thing though that

01:08:03   like through the grapevine that that Twitter might be about to pull the plug on flipboard and I know that a lot of people I

01:08:09   Don't use flipboard that much

01:08:10   But I know that Twitter is a really good source for it is you hook up your Twitter to your flipboard and then?

01:08:15   Urls that are posted from the people you follow on Twitter

01:08:19   Which is a really really high hit rate of things you're interested in show up as flipboard articles

01:08:24   You know so if they pull that you're gonna lose a really good source for

01:08:30   Sort of the way that flipboard can get serendipitous articles not just you know

01:08:35   It's like the one of the things that I think is appealing about flipboard compared to RSS is RSS just gives you things

01:08:40   You know you want whereas flipboard can sometimes give you things you do enjoy

01:08:44   But that you would didn't ask for and Twitter is a big source for that

01:08:48   I can't help but think I really think I think that if Twitter does that I think it's really gonna

01:08:53   My prediction is it's gonna infuriate flipboard users because I really do think that that's a big part of flipboards

01:09:00   appeal.

01:09:01   Well, I think they're going to do the calculation and say there aren't enough Flipboard users

01:09:04   for that to matter.

01:09:05   But I was thinking the other day about how I use Twitter and how it has become—I was

01:09:09   thinking of someone's blog and I'm like, "Boy, I wonder if this person has done a blog post

01:09:14   lately."

01:09:15   And I was thinking, "You know why I don't know if they're doing blog posts and I haven't

01:09:18   seen them?

01:09:19   It's because they don't tweet their blog posts and Twitter has started to replace RSS for

01:09:22   me."

01:09:23   Before, when I was living in that news bar all day, I always knew if someone, you know,

01:09:26   someone posted their blog once every two months.

01:09:28   But I would see that post because it would come up in my feeds.

01:09:30   But now if they don't tweet about it, I'm using Twitter like RSS, and that's why it

01:09:33   burns me so much to think that that would go away because it's replaced or mostly supplanted

01:09:38   so many other services in my life, and then they're going to change the rules on me, and

01:09:42   I'm going to be like, "Ugh."

01:09:43   My refer is a daring fireball.

01:09:44   The refer listings are almost useless anymore because it's all just Twitter.

01:09:48   Yeah.

01:09:49   I mean, it doesn't matter.

01:09:50   It's not like everything I've posted during Fireball, the number one refer to it by far

01:09:55   is Twitter.

01:09:57   And I don't even know how much, it's not, you know, presumably a lot of it is the Daring

01:10:00   Fireball, @DaringFireball account Twitter account, but if I actually like poke into

01:10:05   it, it's, you know, it's other people of course, you know, people who just like, you know,

01:10:08   here's an article at Daring Fireball.

01:10:09   Huge, huge, huge source.

01:10:11   Yeah, I can tell you that that's basically how I read Daring Fireball.

01:10:15   Why do I follow the Daring Fireball account?

01:10:17   Because I have to know, you know, like don't I know that just go to the Daring Fireball

01:10:21   site and read stuff?

01:10:22   The way I go there, 99.9% of the time, is the Daring Fireball account tweets something,

01:10:27   and I click on it, and that's how I read it.

01:10:30   That's how it happens.

01:10:31   I used to, I still subscribe to your feed, but I do that for all these things.

01:10:38   I subscribe to the Twitter accounts of things whose feeds I also subscribe to, and whose

01:10:42   websites I also see.

01:10:43   Only for sites that are like, you can't do it for The Verge or something that's posting

01:10:47   20 million things every day, because that would just be ridiculous.

01:10:49   But for sites that update once or twice or five or ten times a day, that's how I see

01:10:54   their stuff.

01:10:55   And if someone doesn't have an official Twitter account like that person's blog that I'm thinking

01:10:58   that they post anything, I'll just forget it exists after a while.

01:11:01   Yeah, same here.

01:11:02   I agree.

01:11:03   You know what?

01:11:04   Let's take a break.

01:11:05   I should do the first sponsor.

01:11:06   The first sponsor?

01:11:07   It's like an hour in.

01:11:08   Oh, Jesus Christ.

01:11:09   You know what?

01:11:10   And I swore to the Mule guys I was going to get this done in an hour.

01:11:13   Last week's show is about an hour.

01:11:16   Christ.

01:11:17   Anyway, Macworld Superguides.

01:11:18   guides. You ever hear these super guides? The people at Macworld, these guys, they're

01:11:21   my friends, but they're really the best in the business when it comes to covering Apple.

01:11:26   So many smart writers and editors, and they don't just do, it's not just the magazine

01:11:30   and the website. They've got a whole series of ebooks, and some of it's compiled from

01:11:35   the best information that they've published on the web, a lot of it is original content,

01:11:40   and they cover these topics in super good, super deep depth, and with the same sort of

01:11:46   high quality of writing and editing that you expect from Macworld.

01:11:52   And they're available just about anywhere you could want them.

01:11:54   You can get them at the iBook store.

01:11:55   You can buy them directly from Amazon at the Kindle store.

01:11:58   You can get them from Macworld if you want.

01:12:03   Who writes for Macworld?

01:12:04   We've got Chris Breen, Dan Frakes, Lex Friedman, of course Jason Snell.

01:12:10   I don't even know.

01:12:11   Does he even work anymore?

01:12:12   like a new job as the IDC whatever, director of whatever.

01:12:16   You're the vice president.

01:12:17   Don't forget Dan Morin.

01:12:18   I was going to forget Dan Morin on purpose and you blew it.

01:12:23   And of course Serenity Caldwell who I think not only writes for them but she also does

01:12:28   a lot of the production work on putting these ebooks together.

01:12:32   And so their newest one, no surprise, and ties right in with having Syracuse on the

01:12:38   show it's their total mountain lion five bucks five dollars that's all it costs

01:12:44   and you get all the detailed information everything Macworld knows about

01:12:48   mountain lion all the new features and for six bucks you just throw one buck

01:12:53   more you can even get a bundle and it contains DRM free ePub and Kindle files

01:12:58   and a PDF version you get it all DRM free other books in the Macworld

01:13:04   Super Guide series you might be interested in Mac gems second edition for bucks

01:13:08   Master iPhone photography I had that you know what I should read that one three bucks three bucks

01:13:15   And it's all everything you want to know about the iPhone camera and photography

01:13:19   They got the I've iPad Super Guide ten bucks the URL. It's macworld.com

01:13:25   super guides

01:13:28   Go get them. They're great books. I've read a bunch. I've gone through the

01:13:33   the Mountain Lion one and I've learned new things. I can't imagine that anybody

01:13:37   wouldn't except maybe maybe John. macworld.com/superguides. So your

01:13:44   your your your Mountain Lion review is out. Yeah. And I know I know you've

01:13:49   covered it extensively on Hypercord. We don't have to go through it. Yeah I'm gonna talk

01:13:53   about it more this week. I can't be the only I love it and I wrote this when I

01:13:59   linked to it as I know that for a lot of us we look forward to release day of

01:14:02   of Mac OS X versions as much for--

01:14:07   and as the time goes on, too, because I get access

01:14:09   to the seeds now, I have developer accounts.

01:14:11   So I kind of know the software.

01:14:13   I'm not like a Joe user who needs to go to the Apple Store

01:14:15   and buy it and install it.

01:14:17   I kind of know it.

01:14:17   It's like the thing I have to look forward to is your review.

01:14:20   Well, the good thing about the review

01:14:22   is it won't screw up your computer

01:14:24   and make your Skype break and do other things.

01:14:26   Exactly.

01:14:27   It's risk-free.

01:14:28   You just read it.

01:14:29   And the other thing about it is that with these releases,

01:14:31   is like, you know, the initial mountain lion reel was a surprise because we didn't know

01:14:35   they were going to yearly release cycle and it just seemed to come out of nowhere. But

01:14:38   they paraded that OS around so much and just showed every possible feature of it. Like

01:14:44   there was nothing held in reserve for the longest time. And if you wanted to know about

01:14:48   this, just from Apple's official keynotes, you felt like you knew the whole operating

01:14:53   system and then forget about like the rumor sites that just would download the seeds and

01:14:55   show you everything. So certainly it's not like, oh boy, I can't wait to see it, read

01:14:59   this review so I could figure out, so I could see what's in this operating system. Because

01:15:02   if you cared, you could have found out. It's all just, you know, okay, so we know what's

01:15:07   there, let's hear some people's opinions about it. And that's why I think people read, not

01:15:11   just my review, but any review you want to hear. All right, we know about all these features,

01:15:14   but let's hear from someone who's used it. Is it good? Is it bad? Does it work the way

01:15:18   they say it should? How does it feel to actually use this thing? Stuff like that.

01:15:21   Do you ever think about doing this for iOS?

01:15:24   I get so tired thinking about just doing it for like, during the WWC keynote, when they

01:15:30   were going through like, you know, they did the Mac section, they did the iOS section,

01:15:34   and during the iOS section, I was like, "Oh, thank God I'm not running a review of iOS,"

01:15:37   because I'm not gonna say that I like the Mac better, but that's like where my history

01:15:41   is.

01:15:42   Like the Mac is my first love, and I have this deep background and context to speak

01:15:46   about iOS, whereas the number of people who have been using, not iOS, Mac, the Mac operating

01:15:52   The number of people who've been using iOS since day one, there's plenty of those people.

01:15:57   But how many people are still around who've been using the Mac since day one and have

01:16:00   all that history behind it and can talk about it?

01:16:03   And really, the other thing about it is so much of my Mac OS X reviews have become tangentially

01:16:10   about or indirectly about iOS anyway.

01:16:13   It's like I get to comment on iOS even though I'm not writing a review of it.

01:16:16   But really it just comes down to, you know, if this was my full-time job, sure, maybe

01:16:21   I'd do an iOS review, but it's not and these Mac ones almost kill me as it is.

01:16:27   From a practical standpoint, I don't even know if it would work out.

01:16:29   I mean, I know.

01:16:30   I mean, nobody really knows how much work you put into it other than you, but that is

01:16:34   one of the things, too, with you having the podcast now with having Hypercritical where

01:16:38   you do comment on it as you're going.

01:16:40   Like for the last several months, it's been one of the recurring bits up front is how's

01:16:44   the review going and you give some background on it and you get an even greater sense of

01:16:48   how much work it is to do this.

01:16:53   Not just the writing, but the fact that you've pointed out that you've always copiously illustrated

01:16:59   the reviews with screenshots and that it's really, really hard to get good screenshots.

01:17:06   You've pointed out just stupid things like if you're going to take screenshots of the

01:17:10   contacts app, you've got to make sure you've got a set of dummy contacts set up so you're

01:17:14   not putting your mom's address there, which would let you get hacked in addition to violating

01:17:21   your mom's privacy. And then when Apple changes the color of the leather in the address book

01:17:28   theme that the contacts app uses, now you've got to retake the screenshots.

01:17:34   Yeah, the worst part about it is that it's loaded all on the back end where no matter

01:17:41   how much preparation you do, you are at the mercy of their releases.

01:17:44   And so there's necessarily going to be this crazy mad scramble for the last build, the

01:17:49   second to last build, leading right up to when they do the release.

01:17:51   And you just can't do that ahead of time.

01:17:53   Like I start preparing like, you know, months and as soon as I know the new cat name practically,

01:17:59   that's where I'm starting.

01:18:00   And like, it's not like your homework where you're like, "I did all my work, reading for

01:18:04   the entire year and the first week of school."

01:18:05   You can't do that.

01:18:06   You're just at the mercy of their release schedule.

01:18:09   And so it just adds a tremendous amount of pressure.

01:18:11   But of course the main problem is that it just takes me forever to do this.

01:18:14   I'm not a fast writer.

01:18:15   I don't know how these guys who write for a living just churn out article after article

01:18:19   every day.

01:18:20   I can't do that.

01:18:21   That's not the way I work.

01:18:22   It's like blood, sweat, and tears.

01:18:26   And it's not because what I'm writing is so difficult or profound.

01:18:29   I couldn't do just a simple five-paragraph summary of an event.

01:18:34   It would still take me forever.

01:18:37   I'm no good at that.

01:18:38   So it really is very painful for me to get this amount of content out and have all of

01:18:44   it be correct and fact checked.

01:18:45   And that's why the day the article goes out, I get crowd-sourced corrections from everybody.

01:18:52   And the beauty of the web is that I can fix those things so that within the first hour

01:18:56   or two, almost everyone has been fixed because they've been found by people where I put the

01:19:00   wrong year on something or put the wrong cat name somewhere.

01:19:03   How long does it take to push the changes to the ebook versions?

01:19:07   That's going to be a show that I do.

01:19:09   This week on Hypercritical, I'm going to talk more about the review, and then next week

01:19:12   I'm going to talk exclusively about the pain of doing those ebooks.

01:19:16   And that is just so terribly painful.

01:19:18   Speaking of Macworld Super Guides, I enlisted the help of my friend Ren, who does the ebooks

01:19:24   over there.

01:19:25   I should have enlisted her help much earlier.

01:19:26   In fact, very early on, months before, I said, "You know what?

01:19:29   I should just pay her as a contractor to make this book for me, because she knows what the

01:19:32   hell she's doing, and I don't."

01:19:33   She really does.

01:19:34   She really does.

01:19:35   I was like, "But you know what?

01:19:37   I should learn how this stuff works anyway.

01:19:39   I should do this on my own."

01:19:41   I'm not going to say there was a mistake because I did learn a lot, but I should have contacted

01:19:46   her sooner.

01:19:47   I did contact some other people I knew who knew stuff about eBooks, but the thing that

01:19:50   she knows is, "Here's what the spec says, and here's how to do this, and here's what

01:19:56   the best practices are, but here's where the bodies are buried on iBooks.

01:19:59   Oh, so you're getting this one particular problem?

01:20:02   Yeah, I had that problem six months ago, and here's what you have to do to fix it."

01:20:05   stuff like that that you won't find in any documentation anywhere, just real-world knowledge.

01:20:10   And so that was a painful learning experience on my part.

01:20:12   But the other part is, if you want to make a correction, it's not like on our sector

01:20:18   where I just go into the CMS update thing, click a button, 30 seconds later it's up on

01:20:23   the web.

01:20:24   It's an ordeal.

01:20:25   So then you got to do this batch thing where you're like, "All right, I don't want to send

01:20:28   an update until I've got..."

01:20:30   You're waiting for them to slow down to a trickle, but all the while you know that there's

01:20:33   egregious double word sitting there in the first three paragraphs that you just wish

01:20:37   you could fix.

01:20:38   You're like, "No, no, no, just wait."

01:20:39   It's like the Mac App Store updates.

01:20:41   You know you've got a bunch of bug fixes, but the longer you wait, then you put it into

01:20:45   review.

01:20:46   As soon as it goes into review, you find some other crashing bug.

01:20:48   You're like, "Goddammit, should I wait?

01:20:49   Should I resubmit?"

01:20:51   That kind of delay just kills you, especially with something like this.

01:20:54   This is weird.

01:20:55   It's not like a novel where...

01:20:58   It's practically news.

01:20:59   It's time-sensitive material, where a week after it's out, no one really cares anymore.

01:21:03   So you really have to strike while the iron's hot.

01:21:05   And that's why through a series of bad things that happened, the various delays in getting

01:21:11   the first ebook up on Amazon and then doing updates to it just was very painful.

01:21:15   Right.

01:21:16   And it's sort of like with just shipping apps, where shipping apps used to be really required

01:21:22   in a tremendous amount of attention and QA and focus.

01:21:27   And the stakes were really high because when you said go, there was like a guy at a factory

01:21:32   who was pressing CDs or before that was making floppy disks and

01:21:36   you've got boxes and boxes of these things that take time to stamp and

01:21:42   store and a ship and it costs money to ship them and

01:21:46   Now you want to do an update you want to do a 4.1 update and you're gonna have to do all these

01:21:51   You know

01:21:51   You really do want to queue these things up so that you get as much you when you draw that line

01:21:56   It's in there and then you know digital distribution nobody, you know, it's not like like well, there's Firefox

01:22:02   I guess who ships an update every day, but most app developers, you know shipping stuff over the web

01:22:07   We aren't doing like daily updates to their software

01:22:09   But as soon as they feel like you know what this is better for customers right now

01:22:13   Then then what they had before it led to do a production build and get it out in a web

01:22:18   You just did it without really thinking about it that much but the App Store is sort of taking things back the other way

01:22:24   we're exactly like you said like you kind of want to

01:22:28   You don't want to get a submission in there and then find another bug tomorrow

01:22:32   Because then you're gonna have to start the whole thing all over again. You're back at the end of the line

01:22:37   You'll never actually release anything

01:22:38   So you just have to pick these arbitrary and breaking points to and then and then endure the unknown delay

01:22:43   That comes along with that

01:22:46   It's like going to the bank to deposit your money and every time you get almost up to the teller you get a phone call

01:22:51   That says hey, we've got another check come hurry up

01:22:53   Get out of the bank come pick it up and go get back in them get in the back of the line only instead of checks

01:22:57   It's it's typos right exactly yeah, and again like with with a book or something where you've got lead time

01:23:03   Then just give yourself three weeks to copy edit

01:23:05   It just like crowdsource that you know do do you know you can't but you can't do that with news because

01:23:09   Right up to the last second information is being at like you know

01:23:12   I had my call with Apple three days before the release like you know

01:23:15   It's not a lot of time to spare there - you know I added I added the entire Facebook section in like the last two days

01:23:21   Just because you know after talking to Apple

01:23:24   They they felt like they wanted to promote it and they gave me some good information on so I'm like yeah

01:23:27   I'll add that in.

01:23:30   It's a difference between the Macworld website and the Macworld magazine.

01:23:33   The Macworld magazine's got to be laid out, written up, copy-edited, and just going through

01:23:38   the whole printing process and mailed out to people.

01:23:41   That's very different than the Macworld website.

01:23:42   The Macworld website can say, "Oh, there's an earnings call.

01:23:46   We were on the earnings call.

01:23:47   We transcribed it.

01:23:48   Here's our summary of it."

01:23:49   They can do that that day when people want to read about it.

01:23:50   But there's not going to be a story in Macworld magazine with a transcript of the earnings

01:23:54   call because it's all news by then.

01:23:56   So it's just two different contexts.

01:24:00   I guess what I wish-- and like I said, in theory,

01:24:02   I wish that you did the same thing for iOS

01:24:04   that you do for Mac OS X, just because I'm selfish

01:24:06   and I enjoy it so much and it would be good.

01:24:09   But I would settle for somebody else doing it.

01:24:11   But now I had this thought before we did the show

01:24:13   that I was going to say that.

01:24:14   And then I thought, you know what?

01:24:15   The obvious answer is that I should be the one to do it,

01:24:18   because I've got all the time in the world.

01:24:20   That sounds like a lot of work, doesn't it?

01:24:22   It does sound like a lot of work.

01:24:23   You haven't done one of those in a while where

01:24:24   you do screenshots and stuff?

01:24:25   You used to do that more, but you'd have maybe seven screenshots.

01:24:30   And even just the minimal number of screenshots, the most screenshots I've ever included in

01:24:35   an article, still, to me, it's a pain in the ass.

01:24:37   Yeah, because each screenshot is a pain.

01:24:39   Anybody out there who's never done that, never written up an article where you'd really illustrate

01:24:43   it with screenshots that you intend for lots and lots of people to see, and so you want

01:24:48   them to look their best at you, it's really, really hard.

01:24:51   Especially where you're doing stuff like a couple of ones you've had about text selection

01:24:54   or like what UI elements, and you're trying to arrange the screenshot just so where you're

01:24:57   holding down the mouse cursor and you have the selection going or a context menu is up

01:25:01   and you got to screenshot it at the same time.

01:25:03   Right.

01:25:04   And you do end up thinking about things.

01:25:05   Once you're paying attention to the details, like where is the blinking eye beam cursor

01:25:08   going to be?

01:25:09   Is it on or off?

01:25:11   Do you want it in there?

01:25:12   And if you do, whichever one you want, it still is hard to time, you know, all sorts

01:25:17   of things like that.

01:25:18   Yeah.

01:25:19   And then when you take it again, you want to take it again because it was mistaken the

01:25:22   the first one, but now you've got to frame it the same way.

01:25:24   Yeah, and you've got the desktop background that's there, and with all the transparent

01:25:28   shadows it's so difficult to, like, if you miss something, you can't really erase it

01:25:31   because everything is transparent, including, like, the little edge of the windows.

01:25:34   So that takes it out of you, and, like, multiply that by 150.

01:25:38   I can only imagine doing it on iOS.

01:25:39   I'd be, you know, hammering on the little, you know, home button, power button screenshot

01:25:43   combo constantly, and then filling up my camera roll with all these iOS screenshots.

01:25:48   And then they'd all be at 2x on the big device, and I've got to figure out how to display

01:25:51   That was another thing that was new this year, which is like, all right, about a quarter of the way through

01:25:56   I realized, you know what? I should be doing all these screenshots in a retina resolution.

01:25:59   I don't know why I didn't think about that from the beginning, but I didn't.

01:26:03   But then, you know, I guess it was probably because I, you know, the retina macro pro didn't come out until

01:26:07   WWDC, so it just wasn't on my mind. I was like, yeah, people, I'm writing about the Mac,

01:26:13   I assume people read it on the Mac, I don't need to do 2x screenshots. Plus, I don't have a retina screen,

01:26:17   so I have to do that, you know, high DPI mode where I'm looking at this tiny little

01:26:20   Thing that's not even my screen is not even big enough to hold like the system preferences window and high DPI

01:26:25   All right, it's very difficult to arrange screenshot all of a sudden. It's in mr. Magoo mode

01:26:28   Yeah, and like I can't sometimes you can't even get the whole window on the screen all right

01:26:32   But then the file yeah, so I started taking my screenshots in high DPI where I run into all these problems

01:26:38   But I'm like you know what how do I even display these on the RSC ms?

01:26:41   Because you got to do that you know one of the 17 techniques you can use to show retin images to the right people

01:26:45   but not have everybody download them because it makes the pages too big and all that stuff and

01:26:50   And the RCMS just wasn't ready for it because it was a new type of thing.

01:26:53   I figured out how to get it done on the ebooks, but only for two images.

01:26:57   One was the actual retina screenshot, which shows up as retina resolution on your Kindle,

01:27:02   if you read the Kindle book on your Mac, or on the iOS device, or in iBooks.

01:27:09   And I did that for one image and it almost killed me because I had to try the 8,000 different

01:27:12   techniques to get it to work. And I also did my author picture in the back for retina resolution.

01:27:18   And that was enough, right?

01:27:21   Because there's no easy way for you to do it.

01:27:23   Every way is a hack, because you've

01:27:25   got to use these bogus CSS selectors to exclude

01:27:29   the old Kindle readers.

01:27:30   And it's a nightmare, right?

01:27:32   So I can only imagine doing that for every single image

01:27:35   would have required a much more robust solution than I had.

01:27:40   But maybe next year, will I have a retina Mac?

01:27:44   By next year, will the RCMS natively

01:27:46   support red in the images where I can upload a 1x and 2x and it'll serve the right one.

01:27:50   I mean if you go to one of the image URLs in my review and you shove the @2x into the

01:27:56   file name in the right place and load that image URL, a lot of them you'll get a 2x version

01:27:59   but you just won't see them on the website.

01:28:03   I mean you've been doing that on Daring Fireball, you've been trying to make the retina version

01:28:07   of your favicon and stuff.

01:28:08   Oh my god, I spent a whole day on that.

01:28:11   Right, and that's one image the size of your pinky nail.

01:28:14   16 pixels 16 points. Yeah, so that's a particularly annoying one

01:28:19   But like even just like you know

01:28:20   The your logo at the top and stuff like that you have to come up you have to kind of decide on the technique and the

01:28:25   browsers haven't really settled on if they're using image with source setter I

01:28:29   Do the lazy thing with the logo I do I did that. I actually did this a while back with the logo

01:28:34   I did it. I think when the iPhone 4 shipped, but I just made it 2x and maybe it's even 3x

01:28:41   I don't remember but I might have made it even bigger

01:28:43   But I made it like twice as big and I just sized it with the image tag and just said, you know

01:28:48   it's if it's 400 if it's really 400 pixels and then in the image tag, it says 200 and

01:28:54   And that does the right thing

01:28:58   Yeah, just to show you what it means though

01:29:00   But it doesn't mean though that inefficiently

01:29:02   Everybody gets the big version whether whether you're on a machine that that can has a retina display or not

01:29:08   You're not it's not like you're running the verge and I don't have an image heavy site

01:29:11   So just doing that one image is probably not a big deal, but just to show you how crazy the the iBooks

01:29:16   or the ebook version of the world is the

01:29:19   The advice for doing images and iBooks is not to put width and height

01:29:24   in your image tags at all hmm and

01:29:27   Like when you have screenshots you're like, but no seriously

01:29:32   I really want this thing to be displayed in its native pixels because I'm trying to show this is what it looks like on your

01:29:37   screen and even when you have a retina version that you want to tell them some measurements

01:29:41   so it doesn't just say oh we're just gonna take this image and stretch it to the full

01:29:44   width of the current viewing device or book like no don't do that please don't stretch

01:29:49   it for me like because that's the big thing about my screenshots that's why I was so happy

01:29:52   when I could finally start using pings is you want to know what like the new doc looks

01:29:55   like I'm going to show you an exact pixel accurate representation of the new doc no

01:29:59   jpeg compression no gif 256 color things here's the actual pixels and if I can't even tell

01:30:05   you what width it is and you're just gonna take it and stretch it to the full width of

01:30:07   the reader and I don't know what width that is?

01:30:10   It just pains me.

01:30:11   It's like that's not... obviously ebooks are not meant for operating system reviews with

01:30:15   pixel art in them.

01:30:16   But that's what I'm making, so it's a real mismatch there.

01:30:20   The web is a little bit better, at least the web, they do want you to write the size in

01:30:24   points or whatever and then show the 1x or the 2x version, but if your stuff was just

01:30:28   arbitrarily scaled, that's very sad.

01:30:32   Yeah, that's it's funny.

01:30:35   I think that's not happening to you.

01:30:39   No, definitely not.

01:30:41   No.

01:30:42   The other thing too, and I think like, and it didn't occur to me until years in.

01:30:46   It occurred, this isn't the first year where I thought I wish that John or somebody were

01:30:51   doing what, you know, to iOS releases, you know, this copious documentation, opinionated

01:30:58   documentation, like telling a decade long story of the evolution.

01:31:02   that's really what it is. I mean, that's the thing that really makes the reviews,

01:31:05   your reviews celebrated is it's each one in and of itself does stand by itself

01:31:10   and you can just read it and as if you're just got on board with the Mac now

01:31:14   and don't care about what happened before you can just read it and learn

01:31:18   something and get you know appreciate your take on it but it's a it's a piece

01:31:24   of a greater single work which is the whole all of them together back-to-back

01:31:29   telling this like 10 11 12 year old story at this point I guess it's like 12

01:31:33   years 13 is it 99 was the first DP - because that's part then that's the

01:31:39   genius is that you somehow had the foresight at the beginning to say I'm

01:31:43   gonna start writing these articles I don't know if you had the idea at the

01:31:46   beginning that you'll do it for everyone going forward but you had the idea right

01:31:51   at the beginning two years before it ever even hit the consumers I mean did

01:31:58   Did you get, is the first one you wrote the first release?

01:32:01   There was Developer Preview 1, which I don't even know if I ever even ran that, but I wasn't

01:32:08   writing for ours at all.

01:32:09   The first thing I wrote for ours was a review of the book Infinite Loop, which is still

01:32:13   a pretty good book about early Apple history.

01:32:16   That was the first thing I wrote.

01:32:17   That was in 1999.

01:32:19   And then the next thing I said, "Hey, you know, there's the Developer Preview 2 of this

01:32:25   thing called Mac OS X coming out, which is supposed to be Apple's next generation operating

01:32:28   system strategy.

01:32:29   Ha ha, yeah, the number five in the series, collect them all.

01:32:33   But I think it's kind of interesting.

01:32:34   Why don't I write something about that?

01:32:37   And if you asked, did I think I would be still doing it 13 years later?

01:32:40   I didn't think Apple would be in business 13 years later.

01:32:43   This was not, I guess, 1999, it's pre-iPod, right?

01:32:49   It's post-iMac, so there's a glimmer of hope, and Steve Jobs is back.

01:32:53   But there have been so many next generation operating system strategies and so much sadness.

01:32:57   And then this new thing they were doing, the main reason I wanted to write about it, because

01:33:00   this new thing they were doing seemed so un-Mac-like.

01:33:02   Like BOS, I was all on board with that.

01:33:05   That it was kind of the sum of the same guys, it was Gase, it looked like, yeah, that's

01:33:11   what we think the next generation of the Mac should look like.

01:33:13   But then they bought Next, and you're like, I know Next.

01:33:15   But Next is like, that's not Mac-like.

01:33:18   And it was just weird to me.

01:33:19   And so it seemed like, but it also had a crossover with Unix, which I was heavily into, and I'm

01:33:25   like, well, this could be interesting, but it's definitely weird.

01:33:27   It seemed like something Mac users should know about, because I didn't think anyone

01:33:29   was paying attention.

01:33:30   I'm like, hey guys, look what's going on over here.

01:33:32   They're taking like Next Step and trying to make, you know, putting some weird Mac graphics

01:33:36   on it, but it still looks all weird.

01:33:37   Remember, this is pre-Aqua, right?

01:33:39   So no one knew what the hell this was gonna be.

01:33:40   It looked like a Platinum OS laid on top of Next Step with this weird, badly behaving

01:33:45   thing and none of your Mac apps ran right and it was just, it seemed like something

01:33:51   that people needed to know about it.

01:33:52   And even when I wrote about it, I was amazed that people said, "Wow, I didn't even know

01:33:56   they were doing this."

01:33:57   It's like, people weren't following Apple like they are now.

01:33:58   Nobody was following them.

01:33:59   No one was like looking at every WWC keynote.

01:34:02   They announced this at WWC, they said, "We're doing this thing called Mac."

01:34:05   First they were doing Rhapsody and that kind of fizzled, which was based on similar technology.

01:34:09   And then, "Oh, actually we're doing this thing called Mac OS X and we're going to have enhanced

01:34:12   QuickDraw."

01:34:13   And everyone was like, "Yeah, yeah."

01:34:14   Like people weren't following it.

01:34:15   So I was the only person on the web writing about this at all, you know, because who else

01:34:18   was even paying attention?

01:34:19   So Rhapsody was a much more easily understood story where long story short, the pitch on

01:34:26   Rhapsody was, okay, forget the Mac OS, just forget it.

01:34:29   That's old.

01:34:30   And it was running the country on the ground.

01:34:33   Now you've got this new thing from next.

01:34:35   We called it next step.

01:34:36   We'll just give it a new name now because the name never really, you know, we'll get

01:34:40   rid of the next name over.

01:34:41   Just call it Rhapsody.

01:34:42   make it look better and you're gonna we're gonna replace in your next computer will be running

01:34:47   the next version of what was next step more or less and then there would be like a you know

01:34:53   a compatibility layer where you could run mac apps in a classic thing and it just didn't fly

01:35:00   it just didn't fly at all because apple just didn't have the the they weren't in a position

01:35:08   of leverage over third-party developers they were at the other end of it where like they announced

01:35:12   this thing at WWDC and that everybody at WWDC was like, "Nope, we're not going to support

01:35:17   that." And instead of, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, good luck, you're going to be doing it," it

01:35:23   was actually at that point in '97 when people like Adobe and Microsoft were like, "Well,

01:35:28   we're not rewriting our apps for that." That meant that's not going to fly. And that was

01:35:33   it. Effectively, I would even go so far as to argue that at that point, Adobe probably

01:35:39   single-handedly had the ability to shit-can it.

01:35:43   If Adobe said-- well, Adobe combined with Microsoft.

01:35:47   That if Adobe-- if Office-- and it wasn't called the CS suite

01:35:51   yet, but Adobe's professional graphic design tools,

01:35:55   Photoshop and Illustrator and the other ones like that.

01:36:01   If they weren't going to run on it, then it wasn't going to fly.

01:36:04   Because Apple financially depended upon--

01:36:07   I mean almost completely people who were buying Macs to run Adobe software and/or off Microsoft

01:36:15   Office.

01:36:16   John: Yeah, at that point there was nobody who cared as much about Apple's thing business

01:36:20   as Apple did.

01:36:21   Like no one's business was dependent on them.

01:36:22   Even Adobe, most of their sales had gone to Windows, Microsoft.

01:36:25   I mean Bill Gates famously said about Next Step before it was acquired by Apple, "Are

01:36:29   you going to develop for the next computer?

01:36:31   Develop for it?

01:36:32   I'll piss on it."

01:36:33   That's one of the better Bill Gates quotes.

01:36:37   No one wants to rewrite their apps for a new platform unless their business is so incredibly

01:36:40   tied to yours, like, "Oh my God, all of our customers are on Macs, and if this is where

01:36:44   the Apple operating system is going, that's where all of our customers are going to get,

01:36:47   and we need to port our application to that."

01:36:50   Nobody was in that position.

01:36:51   Important guys or little guys, you know?

01:36:52   And you know, I can see, I actually don't even blame...

01:36:55   At the time, I thought it was cute, and I wasn't really on board with the whole next

01:36:58   thing.

01:36:59   I mean, you know, I saw it as arrogant, I think, more at the time.

01:37:03   Foolishly arrogant.

01:37:04   I can kind of see in hindsight where they were coming from,

01:37:07   where it surely would have been a lot easier,

01:37:10   and it would have shipped a lot sooner,

01:37:11   if, let's say, Adobe and Microsoft had said,

01:37:14   you know what, this does look good.

01:37:16   And we've always been a little intrigued by the whole,

01:37:20   you know, what everybody now calls cocoa,

01:37:23   you know, this whole development thing,

01:37:25   and it looks pretty good, does look fast,

01:37:26   but we couldn't get on board before

01:37:28   because the next user base was so small.

01:37:30   But now that you're bringing this

01:37:31   to the tens of millions of devoted Mac users,

01:37:34   this does look good, we're happy to do this,

01:37:37   let's help us, let's all work together

01:37:39   and make Coco Photoshop in 1997.

01:37:41   That it would have been a lot easier for Apple

01:37:45   and it would have been a simpler system

01:37:47   and it would have been a smaller,

01:37:50   effectively it would have been a lot like what we think

01:37:52   of what iOS has turned out to be.

01:37:55   - But it kind of turned out to be a blessing though

01:37:57   because it wasn't ready.

01:37:59   It was not ready for people to use it.

01:38:01   It was slow, all the APIs we take for granted

01:38:03   not there, didn't exist at all.

01:38:06   The quartz display layer was just dog slow.

01:38:09   There was no core data, no core animation, no core, but none of the core APIs really

01:38:13   existed.

01:38:14   I guess it was core audio maybe back then.

01:38:17   Everything was just in shambles there.

01:38:18   They built bundled applications where ugly ports of their next versions.

01:38:23   If you had tried to bring Microsoft Office to Rhapsody, it would have been like Word

01:38:30   6.0.

01:38:31   It would have been like a disaster.

01:38:32   They just weren't ready.

01:38:34   And so this more gradual transition where they had to go back to the drawing board and

01:38:38   they had carbon, carbon was super important to not just the success of the operating system,

01:38:43   but just to making it pleasant for people.

01:38:45   I mean, IE5 for Mac OS X was a carbon application, right?

01:38:49   And it was omniweb and everything, but you needed IE to do your quote unquote "real web

01:38:55   browsing" because who the heck is going to use omniweb and things didn't quite look right.

01:38:58   all these these carbon apps, you needed them not just because that's how you got developers on

01:39:03   board, but because those were the apps people knew and loved. And even if they could port them

01:39:08   overnight, it wouldn't be the same, like, it just wasn't ready. Right? No, and, you know, and I do

01:39:14   think that that in the long term, you could see it as a blessing in disguise. And maybe, you know,

01:39:18   because effectively, they did eventually get what they wanted, but with iOS, I think, but I think it

01:39:23   was a lot better off. And maybe, you know, it was so much better off, because all of those other

01:39:28   technologies were ready by 2007 when I was shipped. And they could do things like have

01:39:35   really, really fast, fluid scrolling and response times.

01:39:40   Yeah, they got, they basically they took this this operating system that was slow bloated

01:39:44   piece of crap in 1999. And they got it so it's fast enough and tight enough that it

01:39:49   runs on a phone. And that's that's a quite a quite a transition.

01:39:52   Alright, let me do the second sponsor and then we'll wrap up.

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01:42:37   So the thing I've gone back to the why doesn't why isn't there someone doing

01:42:42   what you do with Mac OS 10 reviews with iOS the other thing that occurs to me is

01:42:45   that it wasn't so clear at the beginning that iOS was an OS I mean we knew it I

01:42:50   knew it was I mean I'm technically savvy enough you know that I know that there's

01:42:53   a different OS I know it wasn't OS 10 it was this other thing that was an offshoot

01:42:57   based on similar technologies but I didn't really think of it as an OS like

01:43:02   in the abstract way that Mac OS 10 has always clearly been an OS where it was

01:43:06   this software that you could buy on a disk. It was on a disk. It was pure software. And

01:43:12   that in theory, Apple could have, you know, and for years and years and years, people

01:43:17   used to tell them they should do it. They could make it a version that ran on any PC.

01:43:21   And you could just go to a store and buy this Mac OS 10 and have a version that you could

01:43:26   put in a Dell shitbox and install it. It's an OS. It's a software that runs a computer.

01:43:34   You know, and even the early DP reviews, it was very clear that it was abstracted from

01:43:39   the computers it ran on.

01:43:40   Because you never, you didn't buy computers that ran Rhapsody Developer Preview 2.

01:43:45   You bought computers that came with Mac OS 9, and then you would get this disk from ADC

01:43:50   and put it in and install it.

01:43:52   It was clearly an OS.

01:43:53   Whereas like circa 2007, it was like the iPhone that we were writing about.

01:43:59   And we sort of, at least I did, I just sort of took it as a whole.

01:44:03   You know like everything I wrote about the iOS wasn't or about iOS was really in the context of writing about the iPhone

01:44:10   Remember where they call the updates it was a firmware update. I do remember that I do

01:44:14   500 megabytes of firmware right and I remember kind of rolling my eye at that and I remember thinking like I

01:44:20   Remember thinking that it was it must have been a curious behind-the-scenes

01:44:23   Discussion as to what to call that

01:44:26   I mean like and I knew that it wasn't really firmware in the sense to call it whatever you want

01:44:31   But it's you know it's an OS update

01:44:33   But it just wouldn't have occurred to me to do that at the beginning well

01:44:38   It didn't become an didn't become an OS in most people's eyes until it accepted third-party applications because then you've got a platform

01:44:43   All right who cares what OS the iPads are on that pics at pixio thing no one cared about that because if you can't write

01:44:49   Apps for it. That's what it's not so much that we thought as pure software

01:44:52   But like once you can write apps for it all now you've got an OS on your hand so as soon as the app store

01:44:57   But all this is an OS you know you're writing an application on an OS

01:45:01   And they had that naming stuff. Oh, that's such a weird

01:45:04   You know iPhone OS makes some sense, but you know, it's gonna be on more than iPhones

01:45:09   I mean it was always an iPod touch right? So why is it called iPhone us? Well, whatever and

01:45:14   There was like for like five minutes. They wanted to call it OS 10

01:45:19   Which would be distinct from Mac OS 10. Do you remember that fine? Yeah, I do remember that. No, I do remember that

01:45:25   I think even wrote about it on during fireball when I was like and this is getting really really confusing because

01:45:30   everybody I know just calls Mac OS X OS X. They already call it that, even if

01:45:36   Apple doesn't officially call it. And then just two years later now Apple

01:45:41   calls Mac OS X OS X, which was the name that for, yeah like you said, for five

01:45:45   minutes they were using to call. It wasn't so much, was it that they were

01:45:50   calling iOS OS X? Yeah, they hadn't come up with iOS yet, it was iPhone OS and

01:45:55   you should look back in the post, but I'm pretty sure it was like they was

01:45:58   distinguishing OS X, which runs on things that aren't Macs, and then there's Mac OS

01:46:03   X, which runs on Macs.

01:46:04   Right.

01:46:05   It was very confusing.

01:46:07   It was like – OS X was like the umbrella term that encompassed iPhone OS and also the

01:46:11   thing that ran on iPod touches.

01:46:12   Right.

01:46:13   That's the way I more saw it.

01:46:14   It was OS X was like – was a parent umbrella technology.

01:46:21   And from OS X came two children, Mac OS X and iPhone OS.

01:46:27   Yeah, it was definitely confusing.

01:46:32   It definitely helped sort of avoid, it helped keep me from thinking about it distinctively

01:46:37   as just an OS.

01:46:40   And there are other little things too that if someone, if I had been trying to do this,

01:46:45   trying to do to iOS what you do to Mac OS X as it goes and write about each release

01:46:52   like mini book length form like what I buy it would I would it have occurred to

01:46:56   me to do a version of it a release for the iPad the original iPad which had

01:47:01   like a really weird version number it was like through a three to two or

01:47:05   something like that yes something like that it was like the original iPad key

01:47:10   I ship with like version 3.2 to of iPhone OS but the iPhone never got 3.2

01:47:15   anything the iPhone was on 3.1 and then the iPhone got 3.3 and the iPad was still

01:47:20   on 3.2.4. And it was, you know, it took them quite a while to get them squared up onto

01:47:28   one release. But, and, you know, technically it was like they kind of temporarily forked

01:47:32   it.

01:47:33   It's like when you used to get like the new Mac hardware in order to come with a special

01:47:36   enabler.

01:47:37   Yes.

01:47:38   Remember the enablers? Just for that piece of hardware, because they just released the

01:47:40   new Mac.

01:47:41   Right. And it would be like, you'd be running like, there's one Mac that can run System

01:47:47   7.52 enabler B. I forget, it was like enabler something. It was a little thing. But there

01:47:53   was only one Mac in the world that could run it. And at least until the next version of

01:47:58   the OS came out, that Mac could run no other software. If you booted from an external hard

01:48:03   drive that had a generic system 7.52 installed, it wouldn't even get to the Happy Mac.

01:48:13   I think there are people out there who do every kind of review you could imagine for

01:48:20   every operating system. This year was one of the first years that people were putting

01:48:23   out reviews that were actually longer than my reviews. Not by much, but still longer.

01:48:29   That's always bothered me when people... The thing people remember about my reviews or

01:48:33   tease me about is how long they are, but as far as I'm concerned, it's not the length

01:48:37   and certainly not the comprehensiveness, because I'm keenly aware of all the things I omit.

01:48:43   So that's a double-edged sword, like, "Oh, your thing is so long.

01:48:45   Yeah, right, it is long."

01:48:46   But then they say, "Yeah, but why didn't you talk about this, and why didn't you talk about

01:48:48   that, and you missed this?"

01:48:49   It's like, sometimes they did miss it, but sometimes, like, "Geez, it's so long already,

01:48:52   you think I should have put more stuff in?"

01:48:54   And that's always not been the emphasis of my review, is not a comprehensive tour of

01:48:58   the features that are available, or "Let me show you every single pixel that changed in

01:49:02   the entire operating system."

01:49:04   It seems like that if you don't yourself know everything that changed, and I'm pointing

01:49:08   out some minute thing, but the minute thing that I choose to point out is based on what

01:49:13   I think is important, and just because I point out that minute thing doesn't mean that everything

01:49:16   less minute, anything larger, I caught as well, you know?

01:49:21   And it amazes me how I can get away with that.

01:49:23   For example, in my Lion review, I did not mention airdrop once, and nobody asked about

01:49:28   it.

01:49:29   That is a major headlining feature of the operating system on Apple's website, and I

01:49:32   didn't mention it once.

01:49:33   There's a variety of reasons why I might leave something out, but if you want that where

01:49:37   someone goes through every single thing and screenshots every single app and finds every

01:49:40   single new thing, you can find that out there.

01:49:43   And that's not what I think I'm delivering.

01:49:45   So for someone to do a similar review to mine to iOS, it wouldn't necessarily have to be

01:49:49   long or cover every minute detail.

01:49:52   It would have to be somebody who has been with iOS since day one, which, like I said,

01:49:56   is not hard to find, and is really invested in not just iOS, but in the entire history

01:50:01   of mobile operating system and what iOS means in that context, all the way going back to

01:50:06   like they were a heavy Treo user and they had to, you know, they're using a

01:50:10   razor and a StarTAC and like just their hardcore mobile handheld operating

01:50:15   system device aficionados who happen to have a keen interest in iOS and like are

01:50:21   gonna put everything in context because that's what I think I'm bringing to the

01:50:24   Mac reviews is perspective and history and all the things you get when you're

01:50:29   old I guess. That's what I've got to provide now is wisdom and

01:50:32   experience. And I guess I'm speaking to other people who are similarly decrepit

01:50:38   and old and have those similar experiences and they can understand that

01:50:42   context. And maybe I'm losing my audience for people who are younger and

01:50:45   just want to know what the new features are or whatever, but for any type

01:50:50   of thing that's what I'm looking for. Somebody who I can tell, you know,

01:50:53   if they're reading washing machines, they are a washing machine

01:50:57   aficionado and they've been writing about washing machines for decades and

01:51:02   know the history of washing machines, they know where this one falls in the pantheon

01:51:05   of washing machines. That's what I want to read, you know?

01:51:08   Right, and it's definitely more about the story. Like I said, it's the connection between

01:51:13   the previous reviews, where you combine them and you get a sense of a story. There's a

01:51:19   why as to, you know, here's the direction they're going. And I think it's best exemplified

01:51:24   by your writing about the file, not file system, but the document saving changes, which haven't

01:51:34   it they haven't all come at once. And they've been sort of like, well, here's sort of where

01:51:39   we're going to start going with it. And maybe the high DPI stuff is sort of like that, too.

01:51:43   Where, you know, although I think Apple kind of changed direction on that, from where we

01:51:49   envisioned it years ago being more like an arbitrarily resizable thing, where all the

01:51:53   Graphics or PDFs or some kind of you know vector graphics to the no no. No, we've that that was all problematic

01:52:00   We're just gonna go to X everything's twice as big

01:52:03   Yeah, but with the document saving stuff and the the way that because you you know

01:52:09   Like Matt Newberg had an article I linked to that did a really really good job of going into some of these details of the

01:52:13   way this new

01:52:15   Whatever you want to call the whole collective thing the new modern document Mac system

01:52:22   Thing works, but the thing you've covered well is

01:52:24   addressing the what's the problem Apple is trying to solve and

01:52:28   It's the fact that I think this was in your mountain line review, but I know that you wrote this where it's specifically that

01:52:35   This whole paradigm of how Mac OS X interface starts works with and how people interact with documents started in

01:52:43   1984 and really they started planning it before that at a time when everything was being saved to 400 kilobyte floppy disks

01:52:51   where literally every single byte was precious and almost every floppy disk you owned was like filled up to the rim and

01:52:57   You really kind of needed to have the user in charge of every single thing that was going on to the disk because the space

01:53:04   Was so precious and it took good thing like 10 15 seconds to save your word document a little

01:53:09   Right, right, you'd say, you know, right it really and it really kind of required that the you know

01:53:16   I overuse this analogy, but it's you know required you the the

01:53:21   file system saving equivalent of a stick shift on a car, where you were in complete control

01:53:26   over what gear, you know, the car is in it every time. You really kind of needed to be

01:53:30   in charge of everything that got written to disk and when. Not yet, like you point out,

01:53:35   because you didn't want to go too long without saving because a crash, you'd lose everything,

01:53:40   and you didn't want to save too frequently because a save would take time.

01:53:44   And you can't, you couldn't do anything while it was saved.

01:53:46   No. You couldn't watch cursor.

01:53:47   You couldn't type, you couldn't pull down a menu, you couldn't, you know, sorry.

01:53:50   Go to another app.

01:53:51   No, you're waiting.

01:53:51   - This guy was happening.

01:53:53   - Right.

01:53:53   I remember when copying--

01:53:58   - Multiple files at once, yeah.

01:53:59   That was a hell of a WAC demo.

01:54:01   - I remember when copying files was modal.

01:54:05   - Oh yeah, no, I remember the first time

01:54:07   I was ever technically impressed

01:54:09   by another desktop operating system,

01:54:11   being a smug Mac user that I was

01:54:12   in the '80s or whatever, is when I saw a friend of mine,

01:54:17   He had OS/2, and he copied a document onto a floppy disk

01:54:21   and then went off to do other things

01:54:22   while the file copied onto the floppy disk.

01:54:24   And it was like, that's amazing.

01:54:25   How do you do anything else while something's

01:54:28   copying to a floppy disk?

01:54:29   And he's like preemptive multitasking.

01:54:30   Wow, on a desktop operating system.

01:54:33   And you really, really don't appreciate it.

01:54:35   That's one of those things where you just

01:54:36   don't appreciate how slow those disks were

01:54:38   until your attention was completely focused

01:54:41   on the screen and there was nothing

01:54:42   you could do until it was finished.

01:54:44   But you really needed that.

01:54:45   And all of these paradigms of how this works

01:54:47   and that you say command N to make a new document

01:54:51   and nothing is saved or blah, blah, blah,

01:54:54   nothing is written to disk until you do command S

01:54:57   and you pick a place and you pick a name

01:55:00   and you hit return in that dialogue box.

01:55:03   There was a reason for that,

01:55:05   but there is no reason for that

01:55:06   to be the dominant model today where people, you know,

01:55:11   I would be curious to know,

01:55:14   I think it'd be like a really interesting stat

01:55:16   is what percentage of their startup disk

01:55:18   is free space of an average Mac today?

01:55:22   It's not just a free space.

01:55:23   It's like, you know how long it takes

01:55:24   to save your text document?

01:55:27   It's like fractions of seconds.

01:55:29   Especially with an SSD?

01:55:30   Especially with an SSD.

01:55:32   With any of the modern Macs that ship with an SSD,

01:55:36   I don't even know that you could measure it.

01:55:38   Yeah, it's incredibly fast.

01:55:40   And most of the time, what it has to do with things

01:55:42   that don't have to do with actually writing the bits

01:55:44   It's just almost infinitely fast.

01:55:47   So it's like it's a situation where there's a paradigm for dealing with documents developed

01:55:51   at a time when the paradigm was appropriate, and then all the conditions surrounding it

01:55:55   changed with the exception of the users who still have that original paradigm in their

01:56:00   mind.

01:56:01   And so the paradigm makes no sense anymore, but that's like it's the -- it gets back to

01:56:04   that Joel Spolsky usability book, and I don't know if he originated this idea, but like

01:56:09   when the user's mental model doesn't match the program's model of how things should work,

01:56:13   you have, it's a usability problem.

01:56:16   And tons of users have that old model, tons of technically savvy users have that old model

01:56:21   in their mind of how things are supposed to work.

01:56:23   But that old way has all the problems that, this was actually in my line of view, I listed

01:56:27   all the problems that the old way has of like accidentally forgetting to save, thing crashing

01:56:31   in the middle, you saving over an old version on top of a new one, people reinventing versioning

01:56:35   by putting my document, my document two, my document three, my document final V2.

01:56:39   I mean, you've all seen these file names, right?

01:56:42   these anti-patterns that have to do with the old model and people just are wed to those.

01:56:48   And so even though they make no sense anymore and the operating system could do something

01:56:51   for you, now you have a situation with Lion and Forward where the mental model of the

01:56:55   technically savvy users does not match the model of the operating system.

01:57:00   And that's a bad situation.

01:57:01   It makes people unhappy.

01:57:03   They just want it to go back to the old way.

01:57:04   But Apple is trying...

01:57:05   I mean, Apple, it's so great that iOS exists because if the iOS didn't exist and they were

01:57:10   doing these same things, it'd be so much harder for me to convince people.

01:57:13   It's already hard, but now I can just say, "Look, look at iOS.

01:57:17   Have you ever been in an iOS app?"

01:57:18   And you're like, "This app would be awesome if it only had a save button."

01:57:22   Nobody ever says it.

01:57:23   Apple proved that because there was no existing mental model, like, "This is a new thing.

01:57:28   You've never used it before.

01:57:29   Look at this crazy thing that you swipe your little thumb on.

01:57:30   It's all touch screen."

01:57:31   And they decided, "No saving.

01:57:33   Sorry, it doesn't exist.

01:57:35   No quitting apps, no saving.

01:57:37   All that stuff is out the window because they knew that we had the technology for those

01:57:40   things to be pointless.

01:57:42   It works and people love it, but why do people hate it so much on the Mac?

01:57:45   Because they have a different mental model over there.

01:57:47   Apple's just trying to get over that hump to say, "Come on, guys.

01:57:49   We know this can be better.

01:57:51   You all love your iOS apps, right?

01:57:53   No saving there.

01:57:54   Isn't that awesome?

01:57:55   Yeah, but on my Mac, but no."

01:57:57   I just have to wait for all of us to die before they get over that hump, or does the Mac just

01:58:02   go away?

01:58:04   It's a tough situation for them to be in, but I'm totally on board with what they're

01:58:07   trying to do.

01:58:08   I see all the benefits of it.

01:58:10   I just sympathize with the problem they face.

01:58:14   They've proven that the better way can work, and it's the same people who are using these

01:58:19   Macs probably love their iOS devices, and yet they can't get people to accept anything

01:58:23   close to that model.

01:58:24   The other problem, of course, that I go into more in the Mountain Lion review is that MacOS

01:58:28   10 isn't iOS, and stuff that works on iOS is partly because it's a clean sheet, and

01:58:33   And the Mac is like in this in-betweeny stage where some stuff kind of wants to work on

01:58:36   the iOS model, but a whole other parts of the operating system don't want to work that

01:58:41   way.

01:58:42   And so you're like, "I'm not sure how this is going to behave.

01:58:44   Is it going to behave like this new crazy iOS way, or is it going to behave like the

01:58:47   old Mac way?"

01:58:48   And people can't suss it out.

01:58:50   So...

01:58:51   Yeah.

01:58:52   And I do think, too, that the whole new style document model and all these rules, and it's

01:58:57   not just one simple thing that you have to sign on for as a developer, but if you're

01:59:00   on board with it. All of it works way better, in my opinion, with iCloud documents, documents

01:59:07   in the cloud, whatever they call it, than documents on your file system. Even though

01:59:12   technically the iCloud documents are somewhere in your file system, in your library folders,

01:59:17   you know, something, something. But they're all, you don't see it. You're not supposed

01:59:20   to see it. It's, you know, it's an implementation detail. And it makes more conceptual sense

01:59:25   there than when you mix and match it with the, but I still want to be able to get to

01:59:29   it through the finder because then you're still doing half of the things that are based

01:59:35   on the old model which is…

01:59:37   Yeah, because the finder still exists, you know.

01:59:39   So they didn't make it go away which I think is good but then you've got this weird situation,

01:59:44   you know.

01:59:45   Right.

01:59:46   The OpenSave dialog by itself is schizophrenic.

01:59:48   Here's the iCloud version.

01:59:49   Here's the regular version.

01:59:50   Right.

01:59:51   Because it used to be that if you knew where the file was, it's in your documents/project

01:59:57   folder and you had created it with bbedit but now you want to open it in

02:00:02   this other app you knew what you could do is you could just go in the finder to

02:00:07   that folder and then there's the file and you could drag it on the app or you

02:00:10   could go to that other app and hit command O and navigate to that location

02:00:14   there now all of that's gone but you can still open it you can still open a

02:00:18   document that was made and let's say text edit because text edit does I you

02:00:23   know iCloud documents but you have to go to just like iOS it's not where is it in

02:00:29   the file system it's what app is it in and you go to that app and you go to

02:00:33   your iCloud documents for that app and then you drag it out of there and this

02:00:37   is all to get around the fact that people who are not listening to the show

02:00:40   have no idea where their stuff is in the file system like we all know how to

02:00:43   navigate the file system but experience has shown that you know like it no

02:00:47   matter how much you can't solve this with education there's just something

02:00:50   about the hierarchy that we've had it for decades

02:00:52   and that most people still don't get it.

02:00:54   And so that's why at iOS they said,

02:00:56   "Forget about it, that doesn't even exist.

02:00:57   "We're not even showing it anywhere."

02:00:59   And lo and behold, people love iOS,

02:01:00   feel like they can use it,

02:01:02   and just like regular people

02:01:03   have a better experience with iOS.

02:01:05   There's nothing you can do to make the ease of use better

02:01:09   to make that the paradigm of documents

02:01:12   in an arbitrary hierarchy

02:01:13   that you can open with various applications.

02:01:16   It's just, it just doesn't, people just don't get it.

02:01:19   So Apple showed that the other way can work

02:01:22   and now they've got this other platform

02:01:23   that's back in the old way

02:01:24   and they would like to move it forward into that way

02:01:25   while also not angering the existing people too much.

02:01:28   It's like I said in this year's review,

02:01:31   it's an operating system in transition.

02:01:33   - Right.

02:01:34   They don't even think about,

02:01:35   I think the big difference is that

02:01:37   it's not that they struggled,

02:01:38   that people, like we tend to think,

02:01:40   I tend to think of the file system as like a where.

02:01:43   Where is it in the file system?

02:01:45   Where?

02:01:46   And I think for the people who don't get it,

02:01:48   don't even get that far. It's just to them, it's just all they see is a jumble of complexity and

02:01:53   and maybe they can get that it's a hierarchy, you know, that there's things folders within folders

02:02:00   and stuff like that. But the whole conceptually it just never even clicks as a where thing.

02:02:04   And now I tend to think of the iOS style and the iCloud document style that still is where,

02:02:11   where is the document? It's in the app. Right? But I don't think most people most people don't

02:02:15   don't even think about that. They just go to the app. They just go to the app and they

02:02:19   know that the document is there. But they don't really think of it in terms of asking

02:02:23   the question where.

02:02:24   Yeah, I think iOS is also insulated by, somewhat by, the typical purpose of mobile applications.

02:02:31   You know, communication, or checking your email, and stuff like that. There are other

02:02:36   tasks that I still think regular people do, like basic word processing, or printing out

02:02:40   a picture for your lost cat, or something. Like, there's still computing tasks that regular

02:02:45   non-technically savvy people do that nevertheless are beyond the typical realm of things that

02:02:52   people do even on an iPad.

02:02:54   And so that's why personal computers still exist and still need to exist.

02:02:58   And if iOS was faced with those problems of like, how do people collaborate working on

02:03:03   a project where they're just building a family tree together?

02:03:06   There's so many tasks that I've seen regular people pull off with a Mac or a PC that using

02:03:14   a document model and a paradigm for data sharing that simply does not exist in iOS and would

02:03:19   be difficult to pull off because you're like, "Geez, how do you create something using more

02:03:25   than one application to help create it on iOS?"

02:03:27   There's just no solution for that right now, no good solution, no solution that anyone's

02:03:30   going to figure out.

02:03:31   But on a Mac or PC, a bunch of kids at the school newspaper can figure out how to put

02:03:35   together a newspaper using seven applications.

02:03:38   You can't put together a newspaper using seven applications on an iPad.

02:03:41   You can do it with one awesome application maybe, and maybe that's the model Apple wants,

02:03:44   but iOS kind of gets a pass on this,

02:03:48   but it's like the things it's designed to do,

02:03:50   it does so amazingly well,

02:03:52   and the things that it's not quite designed to do yet,

02:03:55   oh, well, the trucks can handle out the Macs or the PCs,

02:03:58   and so it's a tough spot for the desktop.

02:04:01   - Yeah, I wrote a piece for Macworld

02:04:04   on sort of along similar lines, I think about two years ago,

02:04:06   and I think the line I use, I could Google it,

02:04:08   but let me see if I can Google it.

02:04:11   - What was the article?

02:04:13   I'll quote it back to you.

02:04:14   I think it was the heaviness of the Mac is what allows the iOS to be so light.

02:04:19   HOFFMANM: Yep, I remember that one. That's about as close as I would get to the quote, though.

02:04:23   STEWART: But the sentiment was there. That it's the Mac's willingness to

02:04:27   at least allow this complexity is what allows iOS to disallow that complexity,

02:04:35   which complexity is occasionally very, very useful or even essential to certain workflows.

02:04:40   And I do think, and I also think that fundamentally, I mean, we can't get into a huge discussion of,

02:04:44   we got to wrap this up. But I do think that's the thing that makes me so deeply skeptical about

02:04:50   Windows 8. And it's sort of, we can do it all in one OS idea is that it's not going to have

02:05:00   any of the appeal, it might be a better version of Windows as we know it, but it's not going to

02:05:05   to have any of the things that make iOS so appealing.

02:05:09   Yeah, it's not going to have that comfort and simplicity and just like, you know, clean

02:05:17   sheet breath of fresh air.

02:05:20   Right.

02:05:21   I'm not bringing any of my baggage with me.

02:05:22   Because that's the difference.

02:05:24   The user is different in that case.

02:05:25   The same user goes from a Mac to an iOS device and they bring with them a different mindset,

02:05:29   and that's what makes iOS work, because their mind is changed.

02:05:32   I really do think it's lost among the tech set, the real nerds like us and the people

02:05:38   who listen to our shows and stuff like that.

02:05:40   And even the people, not even going to people who tend to be sort of against Apple or you

02:05:46   know, whatever you want to call them, Apple haters, whatever.

02:05:50   But even people who like Apple but are technically minded.

02:05:53   We just tend not to think of the iPad as a computer and it's not even getting into things

02:05:58   like whether it should count in IDC market share numbers or something like that.

02:06:01   We just do think of it as something else

02:06:03   But I really do think that you know, you have to understand that profoundly for most people really is a computer

02:06:08   It may not be their only computer

02:06:10   But they're doing things on it that they associate with computing and they're reading PDFs and they're doing their email and they're surfing the web

02:06:17   A lot. I mean that's one thing that we have metrics on that

02:06:20   We know that people are surfing the web a lot on iPads

02:06:23   and

02:06:25   It is I mean it's I just don't think there's any way to deny it

02:06:29   It's the first OS that's broken the Windows--

02:06:34   what's the word-- hegemony?

02:06:36   How do you pronounce that?

02:06:37   I'm not even going to attempt it.

02:06:38   I like to hear you mispronounce words.

02:06:40   Well, I'll mispronounce it.

02:06:41   The Windows hegemony.

02:06:43   It's the first one.

02:06:44   And just in the numbers alone, even if the growth of iPad sales

02:06:48   starts tapering off, which I don't think is going to happen,

02:06:50   it's already done it.

02:06:52   It's already achieved a-- even if it only maintains the market share

02:06:56   It currently has a PC sold it's achieved levels that no OS has ever achieved since you know

02:07:03   DOS first took off in the 80s

02:07:07   It makes me wonder what they're like so people keep quoting back the sold Apple line

02:07:11   Which I think is very appropriate the computer for the rest of us remember that one

02:07:14   Yeah

02:07:14   and so like I you know

02:07:16   It seemed like that Mac was the computer for the rest of us because it's not it doesn't have a DOS prompt and you can

02:07:20   Actually use it and that was just such an incredible break

02:07:22   you know the difference in a DOS prompt and the Mac GUI which were just so incredibly seamless in fact

02:07:27   I would say more seamless than the Mac OS 10 GUI like there was nothing else. That was it

02:07:31   It was the iOS of its day and then iOS comes along and does that same thing for the Mac

02:07:35   What do you think the computer for the rest of us like assuming Apple is still around or whatever?

02:07:40   We're 75 years old and something comes around remember that iOS how complicated it was finally

02:07:45   Yeah, the computer for the rest of us is here and now anybody can really use it because that's what it is

02:07:50   It's a series of

02:07:52   Making this technology more accessible and you know when I first saw the Mac

02:07:55   I thought like wow this is such an amazing leap and then in iOS you see oh my god

02:07:59   Look at all the crap they left behind and that's why like

02:08:01   That's why you can just throw this pad in front of a two-year-old or an 80 year old and they get it like finally the computer

02:08:06   For the rest of us. I'm trying to think of what is the thing that's gonna do that to iOS?

02:08:10   Because you know you've got to give it 20 30 years something else will come along and people will say oh iOS

02:08:16   What a technical nightmare that was so hard for people to use finally the computer for the rest of us

02:08:21   It's QoS. History suggests it's about 20 years I'd say.

02:08:24   Unix was like a 60s thing and

02:08:28   Unix is you know that sort of that sort of put the idea that a computer is a thing that boots up with a

02:08:34   Command line prompt. Well 70s maybe.

02:08:36   Well, yeah, it was probably like 69 is when they started the epoch so I guess that's that's multi-user computing

02:08:44   Yeah, and then personal computing was like the Apple 2 where you could

02:08:47   I'd just say roughly though that the Mac came 20 years after command line computers.

02:08:53   Maybe a little less.

02:08:54   And maybe you could argue that iOS was delayed a little bit.

02:08:57   You know, I mean, that was sort of, there was a Steve Jobs article or interview before

02:09:02   he came back to Apple where he talked about Microsoft introducing a dark ages of computing

02:09:07   that set.

02:09:08   And in hindsight, he might have a really good point that there was like a dark ages of innovation

02:09:13   where there was no room for innovation,

02:09:15   and maybe that set progress back five to 10 years,

02:09:20   that maybe we should have had the equivalent of iOS

02:09:24   five or 10 years earlier.

02:09:25   - Oh, that was called Newton OS.

02:09:27   - Yeah, there were definitely attempts at it, and it was--

02:09:29   - And it was close, Newton was close,

02:09:30   it just made a couple wrong bets there.

02:09:32   - Right.

02:09:33   So I would say, and given that we're already five years

02:09:39   into iOS, that would, even if it's 20 years,

02:09:41   it's 15 years from now.

02:09:45   And maybe 10 or 15 years from now.

02:09:47   Start thinking about the things in iOS

02:09:49   that are equivalent to direct access to the file system

02:09:52   and all sorts of other things that are just too complicated

02:09:54   for people to handle.

02:09:55   And I bet you could think of some.

02:09:57   Maybe working-- I don't know.

02:10:00   What is the equivalent of something

02:10:02   that's just too much of a pain in iOS

02:10:04   and that involves technical details

02:10:06   that we shouldn't need to be concerned about, but we do?

02:10:09   Installing apps.

02:10:10   Maybe.

02:10:11   They've made that pretty darn simple.

02:10:12   I know.

02:10:13   You know, installing.

02:10:15   What I was thinking is maybe the idea of document storage

02:10:21   and media access and how you were-- tying things so tightly

02:10:25   to the app, the things that we're complaining about it.

02:10:28   We all know we want something that's more flexible,

02:10:30   but every more flexible system that we can think of

02:10:32   is also more complicated.

02:10:33   Is there a system that's both simpler and more capable?

02:10:37   I don't know.

02:10:39   That's what I'll be watching for in my in my dotage

02:10:41   What is the real computer for the rest of us? Maybe they'll have to involve neural implants or something

02:10:47   Yeah, and I think if you know, maybe maybe a lot more AI

02:10:50   Yeah, maybe maybe it's all about input method now is it kind of a kind of was with iOS, you know? Yeah, definitely

02:10:55   But I do think though I do think and and you mentioned this earlier in the show when you said that it didn't really matter

02:11:02   How good Mac OS X was or even how good it was directly compared to Windows. There was nothing

02:11:07   that was at that point that was going to

02:11:10   Unshake windows as this 90 plus percent market share of the PC market

02:11:16   thing because of other factors other than the quality of it whereas iOS like

02:11:22   Went in this entirely other direction where it's not better in the sense that we always compared Mac OS 10 to being

02:11:29   Windows being better in terms of doing the exact same things in a better more elegant more efficient better designed way

02:11:37   It that it was better in this other weird way, which doesn't even maybe never even occurred to us

02:11:42   Which was it it is completely understandable and puts normal people at ease

02:11:47   By not even allowing them to do these things that that we just take for granted in a computer

02:11:53   That's what the Mac was posted or two and then whether Mac kind of did as well

02:11:56   But it all gets back to Steve Jobs saying, you know, what would you do if you're running Apple before I came back?

02:12:01   He said I would you know

02:12:02   milk the Mac for all its worth and get working on the next big thing.

02:12:05   And that's, I think when as a Mac user, that, that scared me a little bit.

02:12:08   It's like, Oh, geez, if he comes back, he's just going to use the Mac as a

02:12:11   cash cow and chuck it on the curb.

02:12:13   And I couldn't get excited about and get working on the next big thing.

02:12:17   Cause I couldn't see what the next big thing would be.

02:12:19   So that's like, you're going to take the thing that I love and kind of screw it.

02:12:23   And you're going to get working on the next big thing, which I

02:12:25   think is probably going to fail.

02:12:26   Well, when he came back to Apple, he, you wouldn't say he milked the Mac for all

02:12:31   was worth, but he certainly tried his best to improve the Mac. Like, he gave it the love

02:12:35   it deserved, and he also got working on the next big thing, and that next big thing turned

02:12:38   out to be a friggin' phone.

02:12:40   Right.

02:12:41   So, who saw that coming? But that's apparently not Microsoft.

02:12:43   Well, you could argue maybe the next best thing. I remember thinking, though, that for

02:12:47   a while, I remember thinking about that interview and thinking that it's funny that the next

02:12:50   best thing was a Walkman.

02:12:52   The next big thing, yeah.

02:12:53   The next big thing.

02:12:54   Well, I mean, that was kind of creeping up on it. Like, the idea of portable devices

02:12:57   and consumer electronics and moving in that direction. I didn't see the... Maybe when

02:13:03   they started making money off it, like, "Is that the next big thing? Are they gonna become

02:13:06   Sony?" But iOS really convinced me. And I always got the feeling that the iPad, basically,

02:13:12   a computer that that size and that easy to use is what Jobs had in mind his entire life

02:13:19   about it, what personal computing should be like. And he didn't think of it as a music

02:13:22   player that can hold a lot of songs. That was just cool. That was like on the road.

02:13:27   And you know what, and we'll wrap this up, but there's a perfect place, because I didn't

02:13:31   write this down in my notes, and I'm so glad you just said that, because it reminded me

02:13:34   of it.

02:13:35   And you're the only person who I wanted to talk to about it, which is that the early

02:13:41   clue to the iPad being the sort of thing Jobs wanted to get to, and maybe he was trying

02:13:48   to get there, well, in fact, definitely he was trying to get there way too fast at the

02:13:51   time that that purple button in the early pre-release Mac OS 10 single window mode single

02:14:00   window mode up in the upper right of every window and they you know was a purple tic

02:14:06   tac you know you had the red yellow green in the left corner for close minimize zoom

02:14:14   and in the upper right corner and this was controversial at the beginning because in

02:14:17   the old Mac OS only closed was top left and the zoom and minimize were top right

02:14:22   and they moved it all that the top left and we all complained because they moved

02:14:26   something and we made up these arguments that well now people are gonna the

02:14:30   reason you want close all by itself is because it's destructive and you don't

02:14:35   want to put other things nearby because people could accidentally click them on

02:14:39   blah blah blah and really the only reason we complained about it was

02:14:42   because they moved it but what they put instead in the top right was a purple

02:14:45   button, which I don't even remember exactly how it was supposed to work, but it was called

02:14:53   single window mode.

02:14:55   And it was, you would say this is at one window at a time.

02:14:59   And it just didn't work.

02:15:01   I mean, it just didn't work because the Mac had already, they were building on this system

02:15:06   that was completely designed from the outset to be a bunch of overlapping windows.

02:15:10   Yeah, I mean it was kind of like, they're doing this radical new user interface, so

02:15:17   like it all looks different, it has these candy colored buttons, and it's based on Nextstep,

02:15:21   which is the thing that Jobs liked from his company, but you can see him looking over

02:15:26   the shoulder, but everyone's doing it like, "This is great and all, but do we need to

02:15:29   have all these windows, all of this, it just looks so messy.

02:15:31   What if we had a thing that just showed one window, and then when you showed the next

02:15:35   window, the previous one hit, like wouldn't it be easier to just focus on one thing at

02:15:38   at a time.

02:15:39   And so, you know, I can see him saying that and then them going, "I guess we could put

02:15:43   a thing."

02:15:44   Maybe if you had a button and just put it into a mode where you only saw one when you

02:15:49   just focus on one thing, you know, not have all these distractions and everything.

02:15:51   And it would just be a mode for the whole OS.

02:15:53   Anytime you switch to a different window, the previous one would hide.

02:15:55   Like, "All right, I guess we can..."

02:15:57   And they put it in and just people scream bloody murder because that's not how you use

02:16:00   a Mac.

02:16:01   But he wanted something that was like that, where you just do one thing at a time.

02:16:05   And even if it doesn't fill the screen, it's the focus and there's no distractions.

02:16:09   And the Mac was not the place to do that.

02:16:11   But we all said that about the iPad in particular is that there are many activities people say

02:16:16   they prefer to do that because there's fewer distractions.

02:16:18   You can zoom any window into covering your whole screen and now they have a legitimate

02:16:23   full screen mode.

02:16:24   You can do that on the Mac, but that's not the mode we're in on the Mac.

02:16:27   In fact, the full screen mode goes back to the button to do it is up in the upper right

02:16:31   corner.

02:16:32   Yeah.

02:16:33   kind of like single user mode and you use the swiping gestures between it, but the whole

02:16:36   focus was, "There's just too much stuff. Why is all this stuff here? Why do we all have

02:16:41   these little things?"

02:16:42   Why are we looking at all this clutter at one time?

02:16:45   Yeah. I mean, in Mac OS 9, at the end of its life, you had the control strip and you had

02:16:50   the little program switcher and then you had a menu and then you had pop-up tab folders.

02:16:53   Remember those at the bottom of the screen? I still love those things. It was just so

02:16:56   much stuff. The menu bar and the little giga well thing, he tried so much with Mac OS 10

02:17:01   get all that crap out of there. You know, just the dock, one

02:17:04   unified interface element, no pop up folders, no Apple menu, if

02:17:07   you could help it, no little palette coming down the side,

02:17:10   but running applications, no control strip, just get that

02:17:13   crap out of there. But you know, the limit, there was still too

02:17:16   much stuff there. And so iOS was seriously now, everything off

02:17:20   the screen, except what I'm doing right now. And that's what

02:17:23   it took a new platform and a new new form factor new everything.

02:17:26   Right. And it was so much it's actually more way more in that

02:17:30   direction because it's not well sometimes you can be in this mode but then you can go

02:17:34   in the other mode and have all your overlapping windows. It's no. All the time, every time,

02:17:40   there's one app at a time and that app is the screen and has the whole screen and nothing

02:17:45   but the screen. And there's no other, there is no other state.

02:17:49   Yeah, I just had to look this up in my own review because I forgot. When you activated

02:17:53   single user mode, all but the frontmost window would minimize to the dock. And then when

02:17:57   and you un-minimized any other window from the dock,

02:17:59   the previously un-minimized window went back down.

02:18:01   So it was they all went into the dock,

02:18:03   again, that one user interface element,

02:18:04   and any time you look at a different one, they swap places.

02:18:07   - Right.

02:18:08   - It's no good.

02:18:09   - No.

02:18:10   But it was weird, and the difference with full screen mode

02:18:12   is they didn't really go full screen.

02:18:14   They were still a window that you could drag around.

02:18:15   It's just that you could only have one window

02:18:17   on screen at once.

02:18:18   - Yeah, and the rest of them were jamming up your dock,

02:18:19   making all your icons tiny.

02:18:20   Imagine if I did that on any of my machine

02:18:22   on any given day, all minimized to the dock,

02:18:24   my dock would be microscopic.

02:18:26   You know, it's just one of those...

02:18:28   It would have a lot...

02:18:31   If I had all my windows minimized there, it would be a pretty microscopic dock.

02:18:38   There was a way to do that.

02:18:39   I remember with the old dock, when you had the windows in there, you could...

02:18:42   You could...

02:18:43   Option click the minimize widget.

02:18:44   I think it'll send at least all the windows from that app down to the dock.

02:18:48   But now you don't see them in the dock anymore.

02:18:49   Yeah, I think you can still see them in that mode.

02:18:51   Isn't it an option in preferences?

02:18:52   We can say minimize windows into applications.

02:18:54   Yes, no.

02:18:55   Definitely a PLS tack, but oh is it I didn't I haven't looked at that in a long time

02:18:58   I haven't minimized anything, and I don't know how many years ever I haven't minimized anything since they got rid of window shade

02:19:03   Yeah, I just option clicked the minimize widget on Safari and all my safari windows went down

02:19:07   I can see them all lined up next to the trash can oh

02:19:09   My god, so if I option click this one in Safari you're saying they're all gonna jump in there yep

02:19:14   All right, I just option clicked it and nothing happened because I have so many windows

02:19:20   And there they are wow that is great

02:19:24   My icons the icons are about four pixels

02:19:27   Don't do that in every other app you have open. All right

02:19:30   That's pretty great. Did they stay grouped together?

02:19:33   Yeah, I

02:19:36   Forgot about that preference man talk about a trip down memory line

02:19:39   Well, anyway, John Sir Q said thank you very very much for doing the show very welcome. This was a lot of fun

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