4: A Decent Thing That Someone Would Like, with MG Siegler

0:00:00[music]

0:00:23I'm going to wish you a happy Android first day.

0:00:26Yes, very happy Android first day. I'm glad the timing of this episode surrounded that almost perfectly.

0:00:36It was six months ago, Eric Schmidt. Very smartly.

0:00:42Made a couple of predictions.

0:00:44Yeah. I think there were three, right? He obviously made the one saying that by this date,

0:00:52he thought that developers in general would be focusing on Android first instead of iOS.

0:01:04He made the prediction that Google Television, or there would be the vast majority of TVs on the market,

0:01:12would be running some form of Google TV.

0:01:15And what was the third thing? Oh, there would be some sort of killer tablet.

0:01:21sort of a weird one because I think it was translated from some foreign press thing.

0:01:28Something about a killer tablet coming out around this time. That might be the one that

0:01:31he's only somewhat off on. I think they will have something along those lines at their

0:01:37upcoming I/O conference. But still, not quite six months. A little bit more than six months.

0:01:43I think that the TV one in particular was that, not that half the TVs in use would have

0:01:50Google TV, but half the TVs in stores in the US would have someone with Google TV. I haven't

0:01:57been to Best Buy this week. I have not been to Best Buy, but I'm guessing if I did and

0:02:02I kept a tally, I'm guessing it's a little under 50%.

0:02:05Yeah, they may have gotten a big shipment in yesterday. I was there about two weeks

0:02:10ago. I don't recall seeing any, but I'm sure he had some reason to suggest that this was

0:02:20actually going to happen and i'm sure we'll hear more about it at google i_o_

0:02:22again

0:02:23the kid the big complain about this show the talk show is usually that it is

0:02:27rambling

0:02:28and unfocused those are the adjectives that come up a lot from people who don't

0:02:31seem to like it i have a private bad feeling that this particular episode

0:02:35maybe the word smug

0:02:36is going to come

0:02:39that's uh...

0:02:40attempts to come up sometimes and my special guest this week i'm speaking to

0:02:43m_g_ siegler

0:02:45uh... of paris lemon fame

0:02:48and TechCrunch and various other endeavors.

0:02:53And I think you and I have a sort of shared reputation for,

0:02:58I'm not sure how to describe it, being poor sports.

0:03:03- Right, being, you know, not acknowledging

0:03:07Android's winning ways in any capacity, I guess.

0:03:12- Right.

0:03:13- All right.

0:03:14And I think that you and I, again, this is, so far, this run of the talk show, it's a

0:03:20lot of people who I'm on the same page with, but I think you approach this the same way

0:03:24I do.

0:03:27And you've done a lot of work with Mike Arrington, who I have a funny relationship with, but

0:03:31I do think, though, that one thing that the three of us agree on, me, you, Mike Arrington,

0:03:37is that if you're writing about this stuff, just call it spade a spade.

0:03:43Right?

0:03:44Just lay it out there.

0:03:46And I'm not going to--I say to people, I'm not going to sit here and bend over backwards

0:03:50to make somebody who's in second place seem like they're closer to first place than they

0:03:55really are just because somebody thinks that's the way it should be.

0:03:59Yeah, totally.

0:04:01Yeah, I totally agree with that, obviously.

0:04:05And I think, you know, when we do get lumped into this group that some people feel is being

0:04:11unfair to, I guess, the Android camp. It's, you know, it is just because that's the way

0:04:16we see it, and I think for good reason, and I think, you know, over time a lot of people

0:04:20have come over to this site as well, but it's just got to be very frustrating for those

0:04:27who see it a different way, I guess. And, yeah, I mean, along those lines, I remember,

0:04:32what was the thing a few, I guess it was a couple weeks ago, where I think it was David

0:04:37Pogue wrote some kind of review about some gadget. I forget what it was. It might have

0:04:42been an Android gadget, it may have been a Windows phone thing, I don't really remember

0:04:45what it was. But someone, I think it was Buzzfeed, I think it was Matt Buchanan or someone just

0:04:49ripped him apart for kind of going out of his way to make it sound like this is a decent

0:04:55thing that someone would like. It's not clear who that someone was or if that someone even

0:04:59exists in the real world, but those things are always pretty funny to me.

0:05:04Right, as I call it, grading on a curve.

0:05:06Yeah, right.

0:05:07It's this bending over backwards to make it seem as though it's more competitive than

0:05:12it really is.

0:05:13Because the bottom line was, it was the Samsung Galaxy Player 4.2, I think.

0:05:21Right, that's right.

0:05:23It was the iPod Touch competitor.

0:05:25Right, from Samsung.

0:05:27And it does seem like finally, five years later, they've got a pretty good version of

0:05:32iPod touch, meaning like a high-end Android phone without the phone.

0:05:38But it was really, really funny to read Pogue's take on, "Well, why would you buy this instead

0:05:43of the iPod touch?"

0:05:45And it's really, really hard.

0:05:47You know, that's a hard thing to come up with.

0:05:50And I totally acknowledge that if you work at Samsung or HTC or any of these companies,

0:05:55you're in the hole on this.

0:05:57But it's like anything, where if you're behind, it's not enough to catch up to who's in the

0:06:03lead.

0:06:04You've got to put something out there that's in some ways ten times better.

0:06:07Mad Fientist Yep, totally agree.

0:06:10That's Windows Phone right now in a nutshell, too.

0:06:13It's great.

0:06:14It's a good product, but is it ten times better than the iPhone?

0:06:19Certainly not with apps.

0:06:23I think they-- did they hit 100,000 apps or something the other day?

0:06:25But it's like, you know, that metric doesn't really matter that much anymore, and I don't

0:06:31even know if they have a good percentage of the top apps on there.

0:06:36It's just, you know, who knows what those 100,000 apps are and if they matter to anyone.

0:06:42But, you know, we'll see what all this Windows 8 stuff-- if that changes things at all from

0:06:49an app developer's perspective.

0:06:52I'm pretty bearish right now on Windows 8 in general.

0:06:55I don't know how much you've talked about it.

0:06:57I know you've said some things here and there.

0:07:00I think you and I are on the same page where I just don't

0:07:03understand--

0:07:04I like the Metro stuff, and I kind of just wish they were

0:07:07doing that.

0:07:07I know why they're not.

0:07:08I mean, they have the legacy, and they have all those users

0:07:11that they can't just abandon straight up.

0:07:13But I think it's going to kind of be a nightmare.

0:07:16I've only used prototype stuff, but I think it's going

0:07:18to be a nightmare trying to reconcile those two

0:07:21completely different things into some kind of seamless operating system. Yeah, I

0:07:25think the bottom line, and I'm fascinated to see how it turns out, and if anybody

0:07:29can make it work, it is Microsoft, because there's one of their things that they've

0:07:33done right institutionally for 30 years, is they've done a great job at moving

0:07:39legacy platforms forward and moving people with them. So like their

0:07:46transition from the command line DOS PC era to the graphical computing era was

0:07:54it was ugly and it right involved a bunch of lurches but they did move the

0:08:00existing market leading DOS user base to Windows yep slowly but surely over a

0:08:07couple of releases yep but I think in it doesn't matter big or small big meaning

0:08:13like Microsoft Windows, you know, the biggest platform in the history of computing, or small,

0:08:19something like, well, I've been thinking about this a lot, is with Panik's new version of

0:08:25Coda for the Mac, is that where you start with something in a design forever affects

0:08:34it going forward. And what I mean by that with Coda is Coda is designed, it's for anybody

0:08:39know it's like a one window web development app you can edit HTML you

0:08:45can edit PHP and other scripting languages it has a whole bunch of stuff

0:08:50to make CSS editing easier it has documentation for all sorts of web

0:08:56development technologies like HTML CSS preview windows and remote connection

0:09:03stuff which panic specializes in because they make transmit this great FTP SFTP

0:09:09file transfer thing for the Mac. But the main thing is that it's the main conceit

0:09:14of Coda ever since it came out five years ago is that it's all in one window

0:09:19versus more traditional apps like say BB Edit or even TextMate where it's sort of

0:09:27each text file is in a window. And even in TextMate where it's more a little bit

0:09:33more tab oriented than BB Edit it still is a different paradigm. And I think it's

0:09:38harder for an app like BB Edit to move towards something like a one window development. And

0:09:44it would be hard for Panic to take Coda and say, "Well, hey, some people want stuff in

0:09:50a whole bunch of windows. How can we make an update to Coda where you can have everything

0:09:56in a different window?" Like, you start with this design and you're kind of stuck with

0:09:59it.

0:10:00And what Apple has done, and I think to me it just clicks and it makes sense, is that

0:10:06They said, "Look, there's a new way to do all this stuff, so we're going to start with

0:10:10a new platform, and we're going to sell this thing, this iPad, that is like a computer.

0:10:14It's like a laptop, more or less, but we're not going to run Mac OS X on it at all.

0:10:20We're not going to use the name.

0:10:21It's not going to look like it.

0:10:22It's going to be all started over from scratch, and it's going to have all these restrictions

0:10:27and all these limitations that you're not used to, but because we're starting over,

0:10:32it doesn't feel like we're breaking anything.

0:10:34It's all new ground."

0:10:35Yeah.

0:10:36Whereas with Windows 8, I really feel like as they get closer and closer, people are

0:10:40really running into this, "But wait a minute.

0:10:43You're going to break all of this stuff that I'm used to."

0:10:45Yeah, and the most funny thing about that is the way that they set it up.

0:10:51What's this?

0:10:52Steven Sinofsky, the guy who's in charge of Windows, he keeps writing these epically long

0:10:56posts on the Windows blogs, but he set up, whenever it was, several months ago now that

0:11:02Windows 8 is all about no compromises.

0:11:05But you can view it both ways.

0:11:08Either they're not compromising in that they're including everything that everyone could ever

0:11:13want, and is that in and of itself a compromise, because they're not actually giving the best

0:11:18user experience.

0:11:19They're just throwing everything in there and hoping it all works together.

0:11:24So far, the early reviews of the release candidate that just came out have been, they say good

0:11:32things in general, but the switching between those two different interfaces is very jarring

0:11:38and it's going to confuse the hell out of people.

0:11:40Right, and the out that I see is with WinRT, which is the goofily named...

0:11:46Right, the ARM version.

0:11:47Which isn't going to have all the...

0:11:49Do we know what RT stands for? Is it Real Time? Run Time? What is it? Do we know?

0:11:55You know, I don't know.

0:11:57I think it might be Run Time, but it's an awful name, of course.

0:12:00Yeah, it really is. But that's the one where they're not going to have the legacy support.

0:12:05They've got some apps in there, like the built-in Office apps, which don't really look like

0:12:09Metro. They look a little bit more like traditional Windows, but they really are supposedly touch-oriented.

0:12:16And you can't install traditional Windows-looking apps on the thing. So there won't be all this

0:12:22weird context switching.

0:12:25Yeah, and that's great, and again, I know why they couldn't do that overall, just the

0:12:33sheer numbers that they'd be leaving behind and risk alienating completely, but maybe

0:12:39that version does better because it's kind of fresh and from the ground up.

0:12:44But I don't know, but then it's like when you go to a store and you want to buy some

0:12:49kind of Windows machine, do you buy the Windows RT one with the ARM chip?

0:12:53you buy a similar looking tablet device but has an Intel chip and so it runs, you know,

0:12:59whatever the other flavor of Windows 8 is that's called that runs on the old architecture.

0:13:04It's like, I don't know, that seems like just a branding nightmare and a consumer nightmare

0:13:10waiting to happen.

0:13:12It really does to me because it really doesn't seem confusing to me if a typical person,

0:13:17just regular non-nerd, walks into an Apple store that the difference between a Mac and

0:13:21the iPad is very, very different.

0:13:24Different names, different interface, it's all touch, it's just a piece of glass, this

0:13:30is super simple, this is the thing I've heard about, and here's the Mac which is, oh, I

0:13:36understand, even if you've never used a Mac, surely you've used Windows, this is Apple's

0:13:40thing that's like a regular PC with the keyboard and the Windows and the mouse that you drag

0:13:45around.

0:13:46There's no confusion.

0:13:47Nobody's walking out with the wrong thing.

0:13:50Whereas I really, really don't understand, and exactly what you said is, if you go into

0:13:55a store and they have Intel-based Windows 8 tablets running the full version of Windows

0:14:018 and ARM tablets that are running WinRT, I really, really don't understand how anybody

0:14:07except true nerds is going to understand what the heck the difference is and which one you

0:14:12might want to buy.

0:14:13Right.

0:14:14Microsoft has to hope that they can open about 10,000 more Windows stores and they can have

0:14:21their own people explaining this. Or the reality of the situation is that everyone's going

0:14:25to walk into Best Buy or go on Amazon. Best Buy will be people who have, the employees

0:14:32we're going to commission who have absolutely no idea what the difference will be and they

0:14:37just try and sell the most expensive one. And then Amazon, you're left to fend for yourself.

0:14:43And I'm sure they're going to have the typical Microsoft charts to show you which version

0:14:52doesn't have this feature and which one doesn't have this feature.

0:14:55And it's just going to be such a nightmare.

0:14:58I do, it's just like, God, they should have just done Windows RT, the awful name and everything,

0:15:04and just done the tablets that way and then had a more traditional version of Windows

0:15:09and just kept it going and hope and see what happens that if people move more in the tablet

0:15:15space, which is what of course is happening with Apple, where they can have the two separate

0:15:19tracks and by natural selection, people are choosing to go with the iPad more than they

0:15:25have with the Mac, and so they're just letting it play out in a natural way rather than trying

0:15:30to cram things together.

0:15:31Right.

0:15:32So Apple calls it back to the Mac, where they take these iOS ideas and put them on the Mac.

0:15:39You know, and another example of what I said before about how where you start really affects

0:15:44what you can do in the future going forward.

0:15:46I still think that full screen mode on Mac OS X is weird.

0:15:51And I use it sometimes, but I don't use it nearly as much as I thought I would when they

0:15:55announced it.

0:15:56And it's because to me, the whole system is designed on this idea that you're using these

0:16:03windows on one screen, not full screen apps.

0:16:06Yeah, I totally agree.

0:16:09No way to square that circle smoothly.

0:16:12I think it's, you know, I use it, it seems to be good for certain things where you need

0:16:16a lot of screen real estate, like iPhoto is a good example of something that I like to

0:16:20use it for.

0:16:22And they do some interesting things that they don't play up enough because the dual monitor

0:16:26situation isn't really, I guess, probably even a mainstream thing.

0:16:30But they actually do it smartly where you can do other things, even though it's a grayed-out

0:16:34area or whatever.

0:16:35they don't even make it obvious that you can do it, but you can kind of drag things over there and work in that space as well when you have things full screen.

0:16:43But other apps don't do that at all, and so it's just kind of like a wasted space on a dual monitor thing.

0:16:47I think on the bigger monitor in general, like the full screen apps, is often just overkill.

0:16:53On an 11 inch MacBook Air, it could be nice just because that screen is so small.

0:16:59small, but yeah, in general. But it's a really hard design problem, as opposed to the iPad,

0:17:06where it just feels utterly natural. It feels like it's just right that everything is full

0:17:09screen. And I think, you know, on the other hand, it would be really hard to add multi-application

0:17:15windows to the iPad, because it just doesn't, the whole thing, it just wouldn't, it would

0:17:19feel weird. And that's sort of interesting, because it's actually, I don't know if you've

0:17:24had a chance to play at all, I assume not, because they just started coming out with

0:17:28but the new version of Chrome OS. So they sent me one of the new Chromebooks to try

0:17:33out. And the new version of Chrome OS is pretty different from the previous iterations of

0:17:39it. I assume you've played with some iteration way back.

0:17:41Yeah, I've seen an old version.

0:17:43And so the new version is much more Windows-oriented. The old version was basically just pretty

0:17:49much a full-screen browser at all times. And you could switch between Windows, but it would

0:17:55almost be like now on OS X where you switch when you're doing full screen apps. And it

0:18:01was kind of weird and now they're moving back to the window idea. You can have different,

0:18:06there's still browser windows, but you can have different sizes open at the same time

0:18:10and kind of switch between them. And it's fascinating that they are moving back to that

0:18:15thing. And I know why they're doing it because they're trying to go after the Windows market

0:18:20itself and no one had any idea how to do this. But I don't know if that will end up working

0:18:24for them or not. I think it's a good idea to try it because no one was buying Chrome

0:18:27OS as it stood. So maybe this is a good idea for them to do it, but they're going in the

0:18:32opposite way.

0:18:33Right. You know, and the bottom line for the Mac users, I think, with this back to the

0:18:38Mac thing, is that none of it's really broken their old habits. Whereas Windows 8 really

0:18:45seems like it's going to break some habits. So one just notable example, big, big glaring

0:18:49fundamental difference between the Mac and iOS is you've just turned your machine on,

0:18:55you've got nothing open, you haven't used any apps. What do you see? On the Mac, you

0:19:00see a desktop where you can save files and put folders and just put stuff there. And

0:19:05that's what Mac users famously have messy desktops full of files and folders and shortcuts

0:19:11and whatever they're working on at the moment. And on iOS, it's this home screen. You still

0:19:16have a background, you have a desktop picture, but that's where your apps are.

0:19:21And Apple added this back to the Mac thing called Launchpad in 10.7, which is sort of

0:19:26like the iOS launch screen for the Mac.

0:19:30All you see are apps.

0:19:34That should be, in theory, if they started over from scratch with the Mac today, that

0:19:39would be your desktop.

0:19:40Launchpad would be your desktop.

0:19:41It wouldn't be an app that you launch or a mode you jump to.

0:19:44It would just be, that would be your desktop.

0:19:48And I think it would be a lot easier for most users, especially people just coming to the

0:19:52Mac for the first time.

0:19:53But I don't think they can do it because too many people save files to the desktop, and

0:19:57if they couldn't save files to the desktop, they would go insane.

0:19:59Yeah, I totally agree.

0:20:02Do you end up using Launchpad a lot?

0:20:04I found at first that I didn't use it, and now I just use it because that's the way that

0:20:07Mac App Store apps, the easiest way to find them.

0:20:12the latest app is the one that's right there in that view. Do you use it?

0:20:16I use it a little bit on my Air, which is my secondary machine, and I don't have all

0:20:22the apps that I have installed. And so it's a lot cleaner. I only have like two screens

0:20:26of apps on the Air.

0:20:29On my main desktop Mac, no, because it's like I've got like 40 pages of apps and there's

0:20:35no way to find anything. And I use Launch Bar, and by the time I even think about opening

0:20:41launchpad. I've already done the command space and typed a few characters of the

0:20:45name of the app and launched it. Yep. It's interesting too that Chrome OS, you know

0:20:50going back to that for a second, they also copied that as well. They have

0:20:54like a launchpad-like functionality now that's kind of one of the main features

0:20:58to launch their web apps instead of, you know, native apps. But it's something they

0:21:04copied a little bit from Windows and copied a little bit from OS X, so it's

0:21:08It's sort of amusing.

0:21:12And the other thing, I'm sort of jumping around topics here, but I want to go back to this

0:21:20six-month prediction about app development on Android and Eric Schmidt's prediction,

0:21:26which I think he meant.

0:21:27That's the thing is that I think he believed it.

0:21:30Yeah, totally.

0:21:31And your piece on TechCrunch today celebrating Android First Day, the six-month anniversary,

0:21:37specifically mentioned his that the explanation for why he thought things

0:21:43were going to change in the next six months was ice cream sandwich right

0:21:47which I completely agree is by far in a way the best version of Android ever

0:21:51it's it's a huge difference and I've said this before but it to me it's proof

0:21:55that Matthias Duarte I think I'm saying his name right right is very talented I

0:22:03I think that's the one where his design sense has sort of been imposed on Android as a whole.

0:22:08And if you use a Nexus phone, it's coherent system-wide.

0:22:12It's very nice.

0:22:13You had a good review of the new Nexus that runs it.

0:22:17And I think it's a better system for developers.

0:22:20They've gotten rid of these soft buttons if you get a new phone so that you can have the

0:22:24whole screen.

0:22:27And so his argument was, look, ice cream sandwich is great.

0:22:31That's really what's going to drive people to write for Android first.

0:22:37Here's the thing.

0:22:38It's seven months after Ice Cream Sandwich came out, and what's the percentage of Android

0:22:41phones that are running Ice Cream Sandwich?

0:22:447.1 percent, according to Google themselves.

0:22:47They publish those numbers.

0:22:49It's hilarious.

0:22:50It's just pathetic.

0:22:52There's no other way to say it.

0:22:54It's so ridiculous.

0:22:567.1% of Android users are using what everyone from Eric Schmidt on down considers to be

0:23:04the best version of Android, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

0:23:08Right.

0:23:09And he said specifically at this event where he made this prediction we're making fun of,

0:23:13his quote was, "With the Ice Cream Sandwich release, our core objective as a company is

0:23:18to get all of the hardware vendors onto that platform."

0:23:22And honestly, and I don't mean this, I really don't mean it to be making fun of them, I

0:23:29think it just shows how Android as a whole has sort of spun out of their control.

0:23:34Yes.

0:23:35As a concept.

0:23:36It's become something that is, obviously they're still driving the development of the new releases,

0:23:42but how it's actually being used in the real world has completely, they've lost control

0:23:48of it.

0:23:49Right, and you talk to people at Google, I've had this discussion so many times over the

0:23:54past two to three years now where it's like they always, and they seem to legitimately

0:24:01believe that that's about to change. And I don't know why they think that. I mean that

0:24:05was part of the reason why before the post, making fun of the six month claim, I wrote

0:24:12post six months ago, pointing out June 6 as the day, and

0:24:17just saying, we'll revisit it at that time.

0:24:20And I just flat out said, there's no way

0:24:22this is going to happen.

0:24:23And I laid out, I think, five or six reasons why there was

0:24:26no way that Android development would actually

0:24:29surpass iOS development.

0:24:31And one of the reasons, of course, and the thing that

0:24:34we're talking about right now, is that Google cannot get the

0:24:38OEMs and/or carriers to actually get in line with doing these updates the way that Apple

0:24:46can with their partners.

0:24:50And I think that it's like an institutional confidence. And maybe it serves them well

0:24:56overall, but that there's a sense of, "We're Google. We're doing cool stuff. And so, of

0:25:02course, people are going to get on board with what we want them to get on board with because

0:25:06we're Google."

0:25:07Yeah, and it's I actually I think I wrote a post about that a year ago or something that kind of like they were living

0:25:13In a dream world and of course that that put everyone on Google side of things in a tizzy because you know pointing out

0:25:18Not only that Android

0:25:20With the carrier and OEM relationships isn't going as as swimmingly as they had hoped but also the Google TV thing

0:25:27It's like they really thought that they were going to revolutionize the TV experience and they had you know

0:25:31They had all the executives that they needed to have I think it was was it lat two years ago at Google

0:25:36I think they had like Howard Stringer up there and they had everyone and it was and it was you know

0:25:41Sounding like it was going to be great and then everything just fell apart within like two months of that happening

0:25:46And it was the same exact thing with with Google Music, which is probably the best

0:25:51Well, I would say Google Wallet might be the the biggest chaos situation that they've ever had

0:25:56But Google Music is certainly one of them because it was two years ago almost exactly at IO that they first announced

0:26:02you know, what would look to be a full-on iTunes competitor. Of course they pre-announced it and no one knew for sure when it was

0:26:08going to come out and then

0:26:10it took them several months of negotiating

0:26:12and it didn't actually launch until just about a year later and even today two years after they announced it

0:26:19they still don't have Warner Brothers on board.

0:26:21I mean they still do not have one of the major labels on their big music service that was going to revolutionize, you know,

0:26:29Music purchasing and how on earth do they not have at least 25% if not more?

0:26:35Warners, you know arguably the most important one to have on board

0:26:38They don't have them on board and they just you know, they just thought that they could get it

0:26:42You know, it'd be super easy and two years later nothing and it's not gonna happen. All right

0:26:46I think that they've at some steps when it comes to dealing with the rest of the industry that they

0:26:51Instead of thinking like a chess player and having this look if we do this then this then this this is where we'll be

0:26:58be, you know, and have this strategy that with no gaps from here to there, they have

0:27:04this sort of that famous South Park analogy where there's this step two dot dot dot.

0:27:10Three success.

0:27:14Let me hit the money button here and do the first sponsor.

0:27:17I want to thank a brand new company.

0:27:21It's a new app from a new company.

0:27:23is Nice Mohawk and they have a brand new app called IDA, I-T-A. Think of it like it. I

0:27:30think it's a Latin plural for items. It's a brand new list making app for the iPhone

0:27:38and iPad and it's designed to make it fast and simple to collect and organize information.

0:27:43I love the look of this app. This app, think of it as sort of almost like a field notes

0:27:47aesthetic like a brown paper with one of my favorite fonts Futura all over the place sort

0:27:54of a classic timeless 50s 60s look typographically looks like stationary. It's a beautiful app

0:28:04and you just make lists. It's not like a to do system. It's just lists. You make lists,

0:28:11you cross items off, couldn't be simpler and it syncs across iCloud so you can use it on

0:28:17more than one device and seamless syncing through iCloud. Universal app, one app for

0:28:24both the iPhone and iPad, and it's fully accessible using VoiceOver. It is on sale right now for

0:28:3199 cents through June 15th. One buck for the first list app that's actually better than

0:28:38a piece of paper. IDA, I-T-A, from Nice Mohawk. Great app. Do you do what I do when you find

0:28:47out that there's a cool app for 99 cents? I just buy it.

0:28:50Yeah. There's no question. I mean, who cares? 99 cents.

0:28:54We're years into this whole app store thing where there's this whole discussion where

0:28:58indie developers had gone from selling, at least on the Mac, it was very standard, just

0:29:03indie developers. The low end was always around 15 bucks. I mean, it seemed like nobody could

0:29:08could really make a living selling software for less than 15. And most apps were usually

0:29:12started at like 20 bucks, you know, $19.99. And the whole $0.99 thing really had people

0:29:17thinking, "Is anybody going to be able to make a living selling these apps?" And it

0:29:22seems like definitely some are. I mean, whether $0.99 is the right price or $1.99 or $2.99.

0:29:27But I'll tell you what, for $0.99, I just do it. I just buy it.

0:29:30Yeah. I mean, it's a no-brainer. The only thing I actually think about now is that,

0:29:35"God, I have so many apps, and is this just going to get lost in the shuffle?"

0:29:39"Will I buy it one night and then forget about it the next day?"

0:29:43That's the only thing I think about. It's not the price thing. It's almost just

0:29:47a non-equation, because it is so cheap and so easy

0:29:51to download now. I'm kind of interested to see how...

0:29:55Mountain Lion, presumably, I guess that they'll have

0:29:59the Golden Master version at WWDC next week.

0:30:03You know we've both been trying it out for a bit the developer previews of and it seems pretty solid to me

0:30:07I don't know if you've had any problems with it. I

0:30:10The only thing I really noticed that kind of annoys me is the slow

0:30:13shutdown speed and that's like I don't really know what that's about I don't know if you've noticed that at all but uh

0:30:19Shut down, okay, so I you know I try and shut down

0:30:23I don't know why but I shut down about once a night pretty much and then started new in the in the morning

0:30:29But that's the only thing I've noticed about it

0:30:31It seems arc solid, but I'm sort of interested to see how the Mac App Store plays along with

0:30:38Mountain Lion now, given the stuff that they're doing with, what's it called, the vault thing.

0:30:45FileVault.

0:30:46FileVault.

0:30:47And, or sorry, Gatekeeper.

0:30:49That's what I mean.

0:30:50Oh, Gatekeeper.

0:30:51I know what you mean.

0:30:52Yeah.

0:30:53Yeah, yeah.

0:30:54You know, how is that?

0:30:55Are people actually going to do, the default setting for it, right, is going to be that

0:30:59people have to be certified by this app certification thing?

0:31:04And are people actually going to get around to doing that?

0:31:07Are developers going to do that?

0:31:08And if they do do that, is there more incentive now to

0:31:11sell their stuff as a registered developer over the

0:31:15web versus the Mac App Store?

0:31:17I don't know if it's Apple playing against itself, trying

0:31:21to push the Mac App Store a little bit less and making it

0:31:23easier for people to do the web, or if it's kind of

0:31:26first and it'll just explode interest in Mac apps in general.

0:31:32I wonder, I do think, and I believe this, and you know this could be one of those things

0:31:37where I'm two or three years from now I'm shown to be wrong, but I do believe that Apple

0:31:42sees that as long as there's a Mac that you'll be able to install software from anywhere.

0:31:47It will not be App Store only.

0:31:50Yeah.

0:31:51Right, which is a big fear for a lot of Mac users is that there's going to, you know,

0:31:53Obviously it's not going to be 10.8, but maybe 10.9 or whatever.

0:31:57Sometime a year from now, two years from now, they're going to say, "Hey, here's a great

0:32:00new feature for security.

0:32:02You can only install software from the Mac App Store."

0:32:06I don't think they're going to do that.

0:32:07I really don't.

0:32:08And I really think that Gatekeeper is not a step towards that.

0:32:11I think Gatekeeper is a way of bringing some of the peace of mind of the App Store to downloaded

0:32:22from anywhere apps. Right. Here's my question. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Well, how how restrictive

0:32:30are they going to be? Are they really only going to because the thing is, is that you

0:32:33get this developer certificate that signs your apps and Apple can revoke it. So if you've

0:32:41used it for something that's deemed to be malware, people have got it, Apple can revoke

0:32:45that certificate remotely and then yep that all those apps just stop working

0:32:51are they only gonna what are they gonna use that for are they really only gonna use it for things

0:32:57that everybody agrees are malware or like what about like the situation with the rogue amoeba

0:33:02airfoil touch yeah that's interesting right right so let me see if i can summarize this quickly but

0:33:09But Rogue Amoeba has this app for the iPhone called Airfoil Speakers Touch.

0:33:16And you can use it to-- it's like an AirPlay remote player.

0:33:23Right, AirPlay without AirPlay.

0:33:25And they added a new feature as like a-- so you can play music from Airfoil on your Mac

0:33:30or PC to your iOS devices.

0:33:33And it's great.

0:33:34It works amazingly well.

0:33:35They added a new feature in the latest version like six weeks ago that lets you set your

0:33:41iOS device as a destination for AirPlay from iTunes.

0:33:46So you can play music from iTunes and have it sent there.

0:33:48It just looks just like when your Apple TV shows up as an AirPlay destination.

0:33:53And the way that – there is no supported way to do that.

0:33:56The way they did that is with this technique where the – I think – I don't even know

0:34:00how it works.

0:34:01But there is no supported way to do it.

0:34:02I think they have like a key that came out of an airport express or something like that,

0:34:11the public key or something like that.

0:34:13But it's not supported.

0:34:15And once Apple figured out that the app got into the App Store, but then because it's

0:34:19the sort of obscure edge case that the reviewers aren't going to catch, and they're not violating

0:34:24any of the actual rules of the App Store in terms of private API, all they're doing is

0:34:29is using a non-public decryption key

0:34:33to be an AirPlay receiver.

0:34:36And so Apple took it out of the store

0:34:38until they took that feature out of the app

0:34:40and resubmitted it to the store.

0:34:42So would they, so here's where I'm going with that.

0:34:45What about if Rogue Amoeba ships a Mac version

0:34:49that has the same feature

0:34:51and they sign it-- - Right, and it's not sold

0:34:52through the store, it's just sold through the web though.

0:34:56- Right, sold directly, not through the Mac App Store,

0:34:59right from the Rogamiba website, if it's signed by Gatekeeper, is that okay?

0:35:03Because it's not malware, it's doing exactly what it was built to do, but Apple

0:35:07may not be happy. I would hope that what they would do in that situation

0:35:11is just reach out to the developer and try and talk to them back channel

0:35:15because it seems like it's a bit of a

0:35:19it's going to be an edge case type situation where they can probably handle that

0:35:23they have the manpower to be able to handle that rather than just kill the app because

0:35:27That will cause an absolute shitstorm if they do that.

0:35:29You know, if they remotely kill an app that was downloaded from the web.

0:35:34That's kind of a barrier I don't think they want to cross.

0:35:37Right.

0:35:38I would think that they don't want to cross that because I really do think they want developers

0:35:41to get on board with this.

0:35:42They want all the major Mac developers, you know, if you're going to keep selling stuff

0:35:47that's not App Store only, at least do this.

0:35:52And I think that anything that they could do that would make developers wary of doing

0:35:56it, I think they'll shy away from. Yeah, yeah. I think that they'll only use it for malware stuff,

0:36:03and it's really genius because it kind of cuts malware problems off right at the root of it,

0:36:11rather than having to worry about it after the fact, and so it's smart in that way. I still

0:36:15wonder, and I think this is going to play out pretty interestingly in Mountain Lion itself,

0:36:21because they'll have, for the first time, all--

0:36:24there will be Mac apps that can play nicely with iOS apps.

0:36:28So they'll have a lot of games that will be coming out

0:36:31that will be able to do that.

0:36:32But my thought is-- and I'm pretty sure this is true,

0:36:35maybe you know the answer for sure--

0:36:37that they have to be sold through the Mac App Store

0:36:39to be able to do that, to be able to interplay with iOS

0:36:44apps.

0:36:45Do you know if that's actually the case?

0:36:47Run the question by me again.

0:36:50I'm not quite sure. So they'll have, you know, like a game for example. They have, you know,

0:36:55some sort of game that will, right now of course you can play across iOS devices.

0:36:59You can play with an iPhone versus an iPad in some racing game, say, and you know,

0:37:03yeah, and so they'll have it now where you can do it

0:37:07via the Mac too. You can play a game that sinks across the entire ecosystem.

0:37:12But I think

0:37:14that those are only going to work if it's sold through the Mac App Store. I think there's

0:37:18things like Game Center

0:37:19that they're going to require you to use the Mac App Store for.

0:37:23Yeah.

0:37:23And there's nothing that would keep a developer from implementing

0:37:27their own peer-to-peer over the Wi-Fi thing that would let an iPad

0:37:31app communicate with a Mac app.

0:37:33You could do that today.

0:37:34I think, though, that if you want to do it through Apple's system--

0:37:37Through Apple's back end.

0:37:37--you've got to go through the--

0:37:39I mean, it's the same thing with iCloud for storage.

0:37:42The only way you get right to iCloud is if you go through the App Store.

0:37:48and I think it's all about, you know, they're never going to cede that control to start.

0:37:53So that if anybody's writing,

0:37:55is abusing

0:37:57iCloud by writing way too much data, exceeding any kind of limits, or using it

0:38:01for file sharing or something ridiculous like that,

0:38:04Apple can just yank the plug and it's out.

0:38:08Let me ask you this. This is something that

0:38:11more than one developer has brought up in the past few months with me

0:38:15when talking specifically about Gatekeeper, and I think you've said something about this before, but I'm interested in your take.

0:38:21The idea that Gatekeeper is sort of a test to see if they can ever do non-App Store apps on iOS devices.

0:38:32So they would do the same thing where they sign the developer, and they have no unsigned developers since they're starting from scratch, they would be with iOS,

0:38:39but they would have a way that you could download via the web as long as they were a signed

0:38:45developer. And you would just lose access, of course, to things like iCloud access and

0:38:50Game Center and those type of Apple things, but you would be allowed to download from

0:38:54the web. Do you think that's ever going to happen?

0:38:56I don't. And in fact, John Moltz and I talked about it on last week's episode. And I think

0:39:01it's possible. And if they were going to do it, it would definitely be through Gatekeeper.

0:39:06I think that if they ever did it, I don't think they would ever allow true unsigned

0:39:11side-loaded apps.

0:39:13If they ever allowed side-loaded apps in iOS, it would be through something exactly like

0:39:17Gatekeeper where it's signed and they could still revoke it remotely.

0:39:22I actually have – we're sitting right here.

0:39:24It's open in a tab.

0:39:25I haven't linked to it yet.

0:39:26I have a blog post from a guy named Zach Wiegand.

0:39:31listening to the show last week, he said, let me see if I can find a good pull quote

0:39:37here, that it's not about the money. Yes, Apple makes a little bit of money from their

0:39:4130% cut, but they are also providing a service for that fee. They host your app. I agree

0:39:47with that, that it's not just about the money. I think the money Apple gets from the app

0:39:50store is nice, but it's icing on the cake. But the reason he finds it hard to believe

0:39:57that Apple will ever open up the floodgates to third-party non-app store apps is one word,

0:40:03Amazon. If Apple were to allow apps to be loaded from other sources, nothing would prevent

0:40:07Amazon from creating a rival store, one that provides many of the same benefits and is

0:40:12even more developer-friendly.

0:40:13Yeah, that's interesting. That's really interesting, actually, because you look at the history

0:40:18of Amazon while they are sort of trying to do this now with the Android, that's kind

0:40:25their model in general where they just, you know, they figure out kind of the, some weak

0:40:31point and just kind of go over the top and figure out a way to bully their way into the

0:40:35system and kind of disrupt it from the ground up.

0:40:39And yeah, that could potentially open some sort of box that Apple doesn't want to open

0:40:46if they were to do that.

0:40:47I think Amazon would have a harder time doing it from a pure quality perspective and maybe

0:40:51and you know kind of confusion on how to install things but yeah that's pretty

0:40:56interesting I like that idea right I so I I would think my honest feeling is that

0:41:02they wouldn't do it unless they were forced to buy by like antitrust

0:41:06legislation yeah or yeah however you want to put it government regulation

0:41:11right and if they did that that's the route they would take yeah that's uh yeah

0:41:18Interesting. I want to I want to I forgot to mention one thing

0:41:21I wanted to give a shout out to Ida about is that with this

0:41:25Skeuomorphic sort of paperless thing they've done something. I don't know if they had me in mind

0:41:31I don't know but they've done something that makes me just adore the app

0:41:35Which is that like the whole user interface like I said is in Futura, which I adore but when you enter stuff

0:41:41It's not in marker felt or chalkboard or any of those goofy silly childish handwriting fonts

0:41:48It's your input is Helvetica.

0:41:51I just wanted to--

0:41:52I can't believe I forgot to mention that during the sponsor read.

0:41:55That it's the skeuomorphic paper type thing,

0:41:58but without the goofy, silly handwriting font, which is--

0:42:01Why does Apple use those anyway?

0:42:03Everyone just makes fun of them.

0:42:05You know, what's their thought?

0:42:07I just remember the day I got my original iPhone in 2007.

0:42:11I loved every single thing about it except that stupid font in the Notes app.

0:42:15and I just couldn't stop looking at it as, uh, and I know they've switched from Markerfeld to the

0:42:21one that has chalk in the name, and I love the name, the chalk name, and I just can't help but

0:42:24think that it's somebody else at Apple who thinks of it like I do, like nails on a chalkboard.

0:42:28Every time. Also, I also have a little, another piece of correction from last week I, I, I have

0:42:37to get to is that last week's sponsor, I pronounced their name wrong. It's Pixelmator, not Pixelmator,

0:42:44And I cursed myself for this because I called it Pixelmator for years. And then somebody somewhere

0:42:50told me that because the guys who make the app are German, that it's not called Pixelmator,

0:42:54it's Pixelmator. And I thought, well, you know, I want to be worldly. I'm debonair. I know how to

0:43:00pronounce words in other languages. So, I didn't really think about it before we did the show. And

0:43:03I did the sponsor. And then I got like 100 emails from people saying, "Holy crap, I've been saying

0:43:08Pixelmator like Automator for years. I can't believe I'm wrong." And so, I checked with the

0:43:12the pixelmator guys in there they said it's pixelmator like automator and I

0:43:16and I did the wrong thing I overthought it so that that's another piece of

0:43:22cleanup us we have winner when are you come I assume you're coming out here for

0:43:28WW I will be there I will be there next week have you would what do you you

0:43:36know what are your general thoughts what's coming that's what I go we can

0:43:39spend the rest of the show on it you know what I'll take an opportunity right

0:43:41now. I have another announcement to make. I'll just make it right now. There's going

0:43:46to be a live episode of this show, the talk show next week broadcast from WWDC. It's going

0:43:52to be on Tuesday at 5.30 and it's going to be free. It's about 150 tickets to give out.

0:44:01So if you want to go, if you're going to be in San Francisco, if you're going to be at

0:44:04WWDC, it's going to be held a few blocks away from Moscone, Tuesday afternoon. You can get

0:44:10tickets at the talk show dot eventbrite.com. That's eventbrite is spelled B-R-I-T-E dot

0:44:21com. So, there's about 150 tickets. I don't know how fast they're going to go. I'm not

0:44:25going to announce it on Daring Fireball. The only way I'm going to announce it is right

0:44:28here during this broadcast. Special guest is going to be Cable Sasser of Panic. I don't

0:44:36know. Maybe there'll be other surprise guests. I'm not sure. Probably about an hour show.

0:44:39So, again, thetalkshow.eventbrite.com. Hope you can make it.

0:44:45Yeah, I'll be there on Tuesday.

0:44:49Tuesday, 5.30. So, I figure we'll have lots of WWDC news to talk about.

0:44:53And I'll talk panic software with cable after.

0:44:59So, what to expect? I don't know. I guess it seems like everybody realized, it seems pretty obvious there's going to be new Mac hardware.

0:45:06Right.

0:45:07I'm not quite sure though how much time, you know, I like to think about where they put the emphasis in their keynotes, because they're very, very carefully thought out.

0:45:16Yep.

0:45:17I wonder how much time they're going to spend talking about Mac hardware, or will it just be... I could honestly see it not even really being mentioned. I don't know.

0:45:26I guess if they go retina display, they're going to have to mention it, because that's developer news, and that's a real bragging point that they can jump on over the industry,

0:45:34and they can say, "Look, first we brought the retina to the phone, then we brought the retina to the iPad.

0:45:39Everybody loves it. Text is beautiful, pictures look better. Now we're bringing it to the Mac."

0:45:44Yep. Yeah. I think, you know, obviously everyone's noticed a trend over the years

0:45:49where, because iOS is so huge compared to Mac development, that this is the focus of WWDC now.

0:45:56And it just so happens that the timing of all this new Mac hardware seems to be corresponding perfectly with WWDC,

0:46:03see, so you think that they've got to say something about it

0:46:05there.

0:46:06And the fact that they have the new OS X presumably close to

0:46:10being done.

0:46:11They've always said it was going to come out this summer.

0:46:13And they like to, of course, launch those things with some

0:46:16new hardware.

0:46:17So it still seems like, though, yeah, I mean, all the

0:46:20banners you see that are up right now at Moscone are

0:46:23pretty much app-related.

0:46:26So it will be interesting to see how much time they devote

0:46:29to the Mac itself.

0:46:30but I cannot wait to see what a retina display on a MacBook,

0:46:36and a MacBook Pro, or whatever it's going to be, looks like.

0:46:39I can't even really think about what it would look like,

0:46:42because you look at your screen right now.

0:46:44I'm looking at a 27-inch iMac screen,

0:46:46and it's a beautiful screen, and it's always

0:46:48been a beautiful screen.

0:46:49And it's like, how much better is it going

0:46:52to be now with a retina display?

0:46:54And will it be the same situation

0:46:56that we had with the iPhone and now with the iPad,

0:46:58where you look at one of the retina displays,

0:47:00and then you look at the old one.

0:47:02And while when you first look at one and look at the other,

0:47:06I still think to the common user, they're like, oh, OK,

0:47:09yeah, it looks nicer, but you don't really

0:47:12get it until you look at one and then look at the other

0:47:14right away, or try and switch back after a long time using

0:47:17it, and it just looks awful.

0:47:18And is that the way all Macs are going to look now?

0:47:20Yeah.

0:47:20I think it's the same whenever you buy a new computer

0:47:23and it's faster than your old one.

0:47:24You notice the speed for a couple of seconds

0:47:26and it feels fun, and it kind of fades away.

0:47:28And then if you go back to the old machine

0:47:30after a couple of days, you're like,

0:47:31I can't believe I used this.

0:47:33And the retina displays the exact same way.

0:47:35Where, and I remember the naysayers about the iPad

0:47:38who were saying there's no way they're gonna,

0:47:39they could do it with the phone

0:47:40'cause it was only 960 by six, whatever, 640.

0:47:44But there's no way they're gonna put a 2,048 pixel display

0:47:49in this tiny little iPad.

0:47:52That's insane, they're not gonna do it.

0:47:53Nobody's gonna notice.

0:47:54Nobody is saying-- - It'll cost too much money.

0:47:55Right, nobody is out there, you know, the argument was nobody's out there with the first

0:47:59iPad or the second one saying, "My god, the pixels are too noticeable on this." But the

0:48:03truth is, once you've used the Retina Display 1, they aren't. They're off.

0:48:07Yeah, it's pretty bad to go back and look at it now. To me, it's even worse than it

0:48:13is on the iPhone Switch, which is still pretty bad, but just because of the bigger screen.

0:48:18And so it'll be even a bigger screen now, presumably a 15-inch or something like that

0:48:23the with a mac book and it's like god that's going to be really jarring to

0:48:28uh... and i know in the mac

0:48:31people have said to me over the years cuz i i do i i obsess over typography

0:48:35it is absolutely one of my my great passions

0:48:39and i've had this discussion with people about pixels is that you know that that

0:48:43it's inevitable and and and they've say well no most people don't care about

0:48:47this stuff like you do so why would they bother but

0:48:51it's just the path that print took, right? Like if you look at really old books, if

0:48:55you look at books that were printed, you know, like vintage books from about a

0:48:58hundred years ago or so,

0:49:00the printing quality was great. I mean, you know, typography had, you know,

0:49:04some of the great text faces of all time were well established already a hundred

0:49:08years ago.

0:49:09And the typography is gorgeous, but if you look at the quality of the printing,

0:49:12it's...

0:49:13there's a lot of, you know, the ink spread a lot.

0:49:16And the fonts were designed to accommodate that.

0:49:20the great text

0:49:22faces

0:49:24hundred years ago were designed with the idea that look it's gonna you know it's

0:49:28not going to be super crisp it's not the letters are going to be perfect

0:49:31you go to a bookstore now by a print book that the

0:49:35the quality of the type in the book is

0:49:37astounding it is like each letter is absolutely perfect like you buy it

0:49:43newsweek or time i mean they still print newsweek right

0:49:46i think so dan lines you know he's he's picking their somebody's

0:49:50Yeah, somebody's paying his checks.

0:49:52Right.

0:49:53The print quality is astounding.

0:49:54It is absolutely astounding.

0:49:56And it's, you know, maybe you don't notice that the – people don't buy Newsweek and

0:50:00think, "Oh, my God, this thing is very finely printed."

0:50:05You may not know – you may not think it, but you notice it.

0:50:07And that's just like the way Apple stuff is all the way, you know, where people don't

0:50:11buy – normal people don't buy it, the iPhone, and think about how nice the seams are between

0:50:16the steel antenna and the glass front.

0:50:21You may not think about it, but you appreciate it.

0:50:25Do you think that they just do kind of one

0:50:29product at first with the Retina display in terms of the Mac?

0:50:32You know, they do a MacBook Pro rather than the MacBook Air,

0:50:37or do they release a Cinema Display one that can use--

0:50:40that obviously if they've met new Mac Pros,

0:50:42you'll need new Cinema Displays, or you can use the old ones.

0:50:45but do they do just one retina at first?

0:50:50I really don't know.

0:50:51I thought originally that they would do it one just to introduce it.

0:50:55And it seems like that's a little bit more of an appley way to do it, is iterative.

0:50:59But it seems like there's so many spots in the Mac product matrix that are overdue for

0:51:07an update that it just feels to me like they're going to just do the whole line at once and

0:51:13and say that they all get retina.

0:51:15You get a retina display, you get a retina display.

0:51:18It's gonna be Oprah Winfrey up there getting out cars.

0:51:22- God, do you think they'll do a 27-inch iMac

0:51:25and like cinema display one, though?

0:51:26That'd be pretty insane.

0:51:28- I don't know, it seems almost impossible,

0:51:30but that's what I thought about the phone, too,

0:51:32when I first heard the rumors three years ago

0:51:35that they were gonna double the pixel resolution

0:51:37on the iPhone, it just seemed impossible.

0:51:39- Yeah.

0:51:40- I mean, like there's more pixels.

0:51:43I still have a 20-inch cinema display, but even if you had the old 23-inch or whatever,

0:51:47the iPad, today's iPad, has more pixels than those.

0:51:50I know, that's crazy.

0:51:51Yeah.

0:51:52So, I don't know.

0:51:53You know, I almost wonder, and I don't even know if it's a yield problem, but maybe at

0:51:58this point, with the pixels that small, a couple of dead pixels you don't even notice,

0:52:02I honestly don't know.

0:52:03Right.

0:52:04Sure would be awesome if they did.

0:52:06And I wonder, obviously they'll try and do something within OS X, Mountain Lion, to make

0:52:16older apps look fine on the new thing without being custom tailored for it, but I do sort

0:52:22of wonder what they'll end up looking like.

0:52:25I think it's going to be like the iPhone, where they're going to stick out.

0:52:30The ones that haven't been updated are going to stick out.

0:52:32because that is the weird thing. The weird thing about, and I didn't think it

0:52:36didn't make sense to me until I saw it, but when you run non-retina apps on the

0:52:41iPhone, they should in theory look the same as they did on an old 3GS with a

0:52:47non-retina display. But they don't. It looks worse because the pixels, yeah

0:52:54there's a little four pixel square where one pixel used to be, but they're so much

0:52:57sharper that you see that whereas it was sort of fuzzy on the old non retina

0:53:03displays there was a fuzziness that sort of glossed over the the pixelation that

0:53:09you could notice whereas yep when you run them on the actual retina displays

0:53:13it it turns into sharp jaggedness that's stair-step you know like you're filling

0:53:18in graph paper right look and I you know I think that I think that's the

0:53:24motivation. I think that's the one thing about Apple's success with this sort of

0:53:29aesthetics are a core value that across the board it just gets developers on

0:53:35board. Like your app looks like ass is like a kick in the pants to

0:53:39developers to hurry up and fix it. Like no one wants to be that guy who

0:53:44people are saying, "I love your app, but boy it looks like ass on my new MacBook

0:53:47Air." Yeah. I wonder, you know, I think about like what are what are 1080p

0:53:53movies gonna be like, you know, most YouTube things are 1080p now or have the option for

0:53:57it, Vimeo videos, and then of course the iTunes content. You know, they can go so far beyond

0:54:04that but Hollywood's obviously not ready to do that. They're filming, like, they're filming

0:54:08the new Hobbit movie, right, with those RED cams, and that's gonna be, you know, super

0:54:12high resolution. 4K, right? 4K. And so there, you know, there will be options to do that

0:54:16in the future, but, you know, this is gonna be an interesting transition.

0:54:21I think video, I think video gets by with it though because of the motion.

0:54:26Yeah.

0:54:27Because it's the motion.

0:54:28It blurs.

0:54:28It inherently blurs the stuff. Just like with, you know, when you watch an actual film projected

0:54:34that the, you know, the frame to frame, you don't see the frames. And so I think that covers it up.

0:54:42I think a bigger question is what photographs are going to look like.

0:54:46Yep.

0:54:48And you kind of see that on the iPad, I think, especially when you're on the web, because

0:54:52most websites don't have retina photographs. They're photographs on the web, and you really,

0:54:59I think, you can really see like JPEG compression now that you couldn't see before with the exact

0:55:03same photograph on another, on a non-retina display. Yeah, yeah, it was, you know, I had my

0:55:11little logo thing, of course, wasn't retina ready when it came out, and I just like would look at

0:55:16that and cringe every single day and so now it's a matter of just uploading a

0:55:20much larger image file but it looks finally looks fine right yeah let me um

0:55:26let me just let me do the second sponsor and we'll run through I think for the

0:55:30rest of the show we'll speak talk more about WWDC rumors but the second sponsor

0:55:36is excellent creations that's spelled X C E L L E N T excellent without the E in

0:55:43the front. Excellent Creations is a mobile app development company. They've been building

0:55:48mobile apps since 2007. They have expertise in iOS, Android, and mobile websites. They

0:55:56can turn your idea into reality on whatever platform it requires. They don't use cross-platform

0:56:01frameworks. They write native code for whatever platforms you're targeting. Are you attending

0:56:06WWDC? Excellent Creations will be there handing out commemorative level up. That's a tag,

0:56:12#levelup, WWDC 2012 t-shirts. So if you see anybody from Excellent Creations

0:56:19at WWDC in Moscone, hit them up, they'll give you a t-shirt. And if you're in the market

0:56:26for a new job, if you're an iOS, Android, or mobile web developer, Excellent Creations

0:56:31is hiring in Denver, Colorado. So if you need an app, talk to them at Excellent Creations,

0:56:38they can make it for you if you're in the market for a new job as an app

0:56:41developer talk to excellent creations they're a great place to work thank you

0:56:46to them and look for him at WWDC so what else

0:56:54maps maps it seems like a done deal I mean that's the one that's that's leaked

0:56:58everywhere what what would you make of the of the Google event yes it was now

0:57:04yesterday that it happened.

0:57:06Kind of funny little event that--

0:57:11I don't know what they were really thinking, if they were

0:57:13even trying to be smart about the way that they timed the

0:57:18entire thing.

0:57:20Every tweet that I saw about it, I was gearing up to just

0:57:23sit down and watch it.

0:57:24And then every tweet, it's like, this is ridiculous.

0:57:26They're not announcing anything.

0:57:27All they're saying is the history of Google Maps and

0:57:31going into how great the product is.

0:57:33it's very clear that they threw this conference together at the last second

0:57:36just to preempt whatever Apple's going to announce at WWDC.

0:57:40One of the articles I read covering it, I forget which site it was on, but the first comment was perfect.

0:57:47It was the first comment with somebody whose comment was "Google to Apple, all caps, first."

0:57:53[laughs]

0:57:55You know, which is, it was so perfect because it's, you know, that's famously what try to,

0:58:00people, jerks try to stick in is the first comment on any article.

0:58:03It really was. And somebody else had the analogy I saw on Twitter, and I wish I'd thought of

0:58:08it, was that it really reeked of that. It was exactly like that 2010 CES keynote from

0:58:16Steve Ballmer, where they were talking about slates.

0:58:19Right, right. And it's holding up that one.

0:58:21It was six weeks before the original iPad introduction, and it was at a point where

0:58:27there was this fever pitch of, "Hey, Apple's really doing a tablet, and it's coming soon."

0:58:32everybody knew it, nobody knew what it was going to be, but there was this idea that

0:58:35Apple has a tablet and it's coming soon. And Microsoft's CES keynote was about slates,

0:58:41and they tried to get a slate word in there.

0:58:45And Google got a chance to throw out the 3D word, even though they've had 3D elements,

0:58:51of course, for a while, but now they have some sort of new, amazing 3D element, coming

0:58:57soon, mind you. Nothing was actually released at this event because it wasn't ready. But

0:59:01coming soon they will have some sort of 3D thing. I thought

0:59:05I think it was like Quentin Hardy for, I think he wrote about it in the New York Times

0:59:09maybe it was even like the Bits blog there or something like that, but you know, because I was of course

0:59:13extremely skeptical and just wrote a post pretty much trashing that whole

0:59:17conference as a giant waste of time and kind of showing

0:59:21Google has, while they are undoubtedly the leader in

0:59:25maps, they do have a vulnerability here that I think is going to be

0:59:29fun sort of to watch how it plays out, but I thought

0:59:32Quinton Hardy had an interesting other view of it which is that

0:59:36they had to do this conference to try

0:59:40and preempt what the rest of the press will talk about at WWDC

0:59:45which is that wow Apple has an opportunity here to really hurt

0:59:49Google where something that matters because

0:59:52you know mobile's so key, maps are so key to mobile

0:59:57and there's all this data and you know Google could lose half the market all of a sudden

1:00:01and so Quentin Hardy's point was that

1:00:05you know this at least puts a seed

1:00:08in the press's mind that well you know this

1:00:11what Apple announced you know could be disruptive certainly

1:00:14but it's not nearly as good as what Google has done and you know they've had

1:00:17seven years to work on this and they've been doing it all this time and they

1:00:20have

1:00:21all the experts in the space you know working on this problem so there's no

1:00:24way they can actually do it

1:00:25It was basically just to plant a seed of doubt in five days before WWDC about it.

1:00:30I guess. I just think it makes them look defensive though.

1:00:34Yes, right. They're fighting down rather than fighting up because they are in the position of power.

1:00:39You know, if it were me, I would just stay silent, you know, and I might have

1:00:47fought as hard as I could at the negotiating table to convince Apple to stick with Google Maps

1:00:52in iOS if I really thought that was in Google's interests, but if they were clearly going

1:00:58to go their own way and not renew the contract, then just shut down. Silence. And good luck,

1:01:05and let's see what they do. And let them do it. Because Jay Yarrow had a piece on Business

1:01:10Insider today, and in typical Business Insider fashion, it's sort of sensationalized, and

1:01:15it's why Apple is taking a tremendous risk with this. But he's a good guy, Yarrow, and

1:01:21And he has a good point.

1:01:22The fundamental point, though, is that it is a risk, because it has to be as good as

1:01:27Google Maps overall.

1:01:28You know, directions have to be as good.

1:01:31And they can't – and I'm guessing that's why it's taken them so long, that they've

1:01:36been working on this for a while.

1:01:37They've been making these acquisitions for years, is that there's no other way to roll

1:01:42that out other than to do it all at once and have beautiful cartography that covers the

1:01:49the world and accurate directions and driving and transit, public transit.

1:01:57And I know that the Google walking directions are still beta, but they're pretty good.

1:02:03At least in the cities I've used them in, it always works.

1:02:07I think they're just covering their ass if you get hit by a car or something like that.

1:02:13But it just has to be as good.

1:02:14And it's an area where Apple is not a historical smartphone.

1:02:17Totally unproven.

1:02:18Yeah.

1:02:19And it goes back to what we were talking about kind of at the beginning where if you're going

1:02:23to come into a market that's kind of dominated by someone, you have to do something that's

1:02:27really kind of not just as good, but 10 times better.

1:02:31Apple doesn't necessarily have to do that here because they have control of this platform,

1:02:36and so people will have no choice but rather to use it.

1:02:39And as long as it's just as good, that will be fine for people.

1:02:43Most people won't even, most average consumers I think, they'll notice a difference obviously

1:02:48if they look a little different, but they don't really care if it's a Google map or

1:02:51if it's an Apple map as long as it functions just as well as it did.

1:02:55So it doesn't have to be better here, but it has to be as good.

1:02:58And that's asking a lot, and no one knows if Apple's going to be able to pull it off

1:03:03or not.

1:03:04They certainly think that they can, it seems like, but who knows?

1:03:07My big question, and I forget if I asked this to John Moltz or Adam Lisagor on this show

1:03:14a week or two ago, and I think it was Moltz, but we couldn't figure it out, is do you think

1:03:18they're going to do a web version of their map?

1:03:21I said this yesterday, too, thinking out loud about it. That's a really interesting question,

1:03:29because on one hand it seems like if they're going to ask every developer to do this, along

1:03:36with the standard Maps app, so in all the apps they'll have--

1:03:41someone brought up the point that it's not like there is a

1:03:43Google Maps SDK.

1:03:44Part of the iOS SDK is just the--

1:03:48they have MapKit, I think.

1:03:49And right now that uses Google data.

1:03:51And presumably they'll switch that out to use the Apple data.

1:03:54So almost all developers probably will

1:03:58fall in line with that.

1:03:59And if they do that, then it's sort of like there's so many

1:04:03apps that have a web component to it.

1:04:05Are they then going to have to switch over to using Google Maps on the web because they

1:04:09have no other choice?

1:04:11Or does Apple offer a web version of it?

1:04:14I would guess that Apple doesn't have a web version of it, though.

1:04:17It doesn't seem like an Apple-like thing to do, but the other thing I was thinking about

1:04:20is what happens when you email somebody directions from your phone?

1:04:23Yeah.

1:04:24Yeah.

1:04:25Right?

1:04:26Like, when you do it now, you can use your Google Map app on the phone and say, "Look,

1:04:28here's where I'm coming.

1:04:29Here's the directions."

1:04:30And there's, like, a little action button, "Email this," and it sends them to the Google

1:04:34website. So I guess they just hope that you're using a mobile device or an iOS

1:04:40device and you either open it through your iPad or the iPhone or maybe they

1:04:43have a picture or something that they include. I don't know. It's a real mystery to me. I don't

1:04:48expect them to do a website but I wonder how you email directions to

1:04:51somebody if they don't. It's also interesting idea as well because you

1:04:58know on the web itself Google is also in a bit of a vulnerable position there

1:05:02because for some reason, which most people still don't really

1:05:05understand, Google raised their rates a few months ago for

1:05:09using Google Maps for high level customers.

1:05:12So for example, Foursquare switched away from using

1:05:15Google Maps on their website.

1:05:16They still use it in the mobile app because it's part of iOS

1:05:19SDK, and it's free.

1:05:21But on the web, they started jacking up their rates for big

1:05:24customers, and so all those guys now are moving over to

1:05:27things like OpenStreetMaps, where they can kind of

1:05:29customize their own maps.

1:05:30And so Google is actually vulnerable here.

1:05:33And no one really-- again, no one understands why they jacked up those rates.

1:05:36It's not a lot of money for Google.

1:05:38And it just seems like a risk that they're taking for no apparent reason.

1:05:43So if Apple were to do web maps of some sort,

1:05:47they could get a lot of the bigger developers potentially using them.

1:05:50Again, I don't think it's going to happen,

1:05:51but it's something interesting to think about.

1:05:54It's always seemed in Google's priority was collecting data.

1:05:58Right.

1:05:59Right.

1:05:59And collecting money.

1:06:00And so I don't know why they're charging...

1:06:01Yeah.

1:06:02Right.

1:06:03Like, why motivate people to maybe look elsewhere?

1:06:05And you know, Foursquare is obviously a super high-profile example.

1:06:10Why give Foursquare any reason to change?

1:06:14It does seem curious to me.

1:06:15I mean, unless it's far more expensive than I think it is.

1:06:20I mean, it's definitely expensive, but it's such...

1:06:24You know, and the amount of money that they would make from it has got to be completely

1:06:29negligible to Google's bottom line. And so, who cares? Just do it as a loss leader. I

1:06:34mean, it's such a valuable service, and they're the leader in this. And they're, you know,

1:06:38I've talked to Forescare about this. They don't really know why they decided to change

1:06:41it and start jacking up these rates. No one really knows.

1:06:45Yeah, and it just seems un-Google-y. It's not, you know, all the complaints that you

1:06:50and I have about various aspects of Google, one is, one thing I can't imagine ever saying

1:06:55before is that they seemed like they were too hungry for collecting money from people.

1:07:01I can't think of any other example of that, where they've done something where they

1:07:06seem to favor revenue per user over just getting as many people using their things as possible.

1:07:12Yeah. So, I don't know. What do you think about, you know, so it sounds like we know

1:07:19maps are coming. Seems like Facebook as well is going to be a part of this. I know you're

1:07:25not a Facebook user at all, but this is the state of the ecosystem right now. So many

1:07:33apps use Facebook Connect to be able to do it.

1:07:38I think if they could get Facebook to agree to terms that Apple considers appropriate,

1:07:46privacy-wise, that it's a done deal.

1:07:50I think so.

1:07:51And I think – the one thing you have to remember, too, is that Apple really operates

1:07:59on a yearly schedule.

1:08:01They really do things annually.

1:08:02They don't roll out a lot of stuff other than bug fixes in between.

1:08:08And so a year ago is when they baked in the Twitter stuff in the OS.

1:08:13And it was sort of, you know, I think it was half because they thought Twitter was good

1:08:16and that it would be useful for iOS.

1:08:18And I think it was half a message to Facebook of, "Well, we'll show you."

1:08:22You know, this is Apple saying to them, "You know, you don't want to agree to our terms.

1:08:26Well, these guys are."

1:08:28You know, and they're nipping at your heels.

1:08:30So, you know, one year later, I wouldn't be surprised at all if, you know, I think as

1:08:34a negotiating tactic, a one-year head start of built-in social integration on iOS, you

1:08:40know, was enough to maybe get Facebook to budge on the terms that they were offering,

1:08:44which by all accounts, and you know, I think you and I both have, you know, pretty high

1:08:48level info on that. It was, you know, more or less came down to their Facebook's bottom

1:08:52line on the terms they wanted from Apple was Apple would not agree to. Not about money.

1:08:57It was about privacy and share. So, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all. I think that's

1:09:02definitely going to happen. I think it sticks out more now in iOS 5 that there's one and

1:09:09and only one third-party social integration.

1:09:12There's almost like this section in the settings apps

1:09:15that seems like it would naturally be suited

1:09:17to a couple of them.

1:09:19And it's just one, Twitter.

1:09:23- And coincidentally tonight,

1:09:26Facebook's having this last minute event,

1:09:28it looks like, to launch what they're calling

1:09:30their App Center, which is fascinating

1:09:33because it's actually leaked out a little bit

1:09:36and it's gone live in their Facebook app

1:09:38on their Facebook iOS app even, where it's basically on

1:09:42the side panel, they now have this new area that's called

1:09:45App Center, where they basically have

1:09:47their own app store.

1:09:48But it's not their app store.

1:09:50It's really pointing to mobile apps, at least on--

1:09:53I think the idea is to be platform agnostic.

1:09:55So if it's on Android, it points to Android apps.

1:09:57If it's on iOS, it points to iOS apps.

1:09:59If it's on the web, it can point to a web app.

1:10:01But this might come into play with these negotiations as

1:10:06because as we're seeing now, Facebook is a pretty important driver for growth for a lot of these apps.

1:10:13We had all the video camera apps that were kind of exploding for a while, mainly because of the way that they were using Facebook's Open Graph.

1:10:20And now, one of the big complaints that's only going to get louder is about app discovery and Applebot Chomp,

1:10:28and they're supposedly trying to work on things with that.

1:10:30But Facebook can do a pretty good job of it, I think, just given the social data that they

1:10:34have about what apps your friends are using.

1:10:37And so maybe Apple, maybe they do something a little bit more with that, too, to kind

1:10:42of make it as a new discovery layer for apps themselves.

1:10:45Because all it does is kick you into the app store.

1:10:47It's just a new layer on top of it.

1:10:50Yeah, I definitely, you know, and that hearkens all the way back to the original rumors that

1:10:55that Ping was designed with Facebook integration in mind,

1:10:59and that you'd get these recommendations

1:11:01and find out new music that people you know were using

1:11:04based on your Facebook friendships and connections.

1:11:08- Yeah, and that may have sunk that ship

1:11:12before it even started, along those lines.

1:11:14- One thing I've noticed, I have noticed this recently,

1:11:18and it's partly because, I don't know if I notice it more

1:11:21because I don't even have a Facebook account,

1:11:23or if it's just my branding sensitivity.

1:11:26But I've noticed more and more as I walk around the city,

1:11:30when I see like billboards and advertisements,

1:11:34like on the sides of buildings or wherever you can put ads

1:11:36like walking around, I see an awful lot of brands

1:11:40that instead of putting their URL,

1:11:42all they do is put Facebook. - Yeah, they've,

1:11:43Facebook, yep.

1:11:45- Dot slash their name. - Yep.

1:11:47- Including one, I forget who,

1:11:49who didn't even print Facebook.

1:11:51just printed the "F", just that Facebook "F" slash their name. And I thought that was...

1:11:58that blew me away. And it wasn't next to their URL. This is where to go for more information,

1:12:04is Facebook slash brand name.

1:12:06Yeah, I've noticed the same thing. I don't really know what that's all about, if Facebook

1:12:11just has a killer kind of partnership team to be able to get these guys to do it, or

1:12:15if there's some sort of data that they're seeing where it's just kind of silly now to

1:12:19have your own website when what you really want is kind of data, social data that Facebook

1:12:25is able to offer up and help you kind of spread the word about messages and stuff.

1:12:28Right.

1:12:29And that you could get them to follow you or like you and then have an ongoing relationship

1:12:34with them rather than one time they visit your site, look at your one page, and whatever

1:12:40they remember, they remember.

1:12:42But I still think it's very, very powerful.

1:12:45I think it's a powerful statement of Facebook's influence.

1:12:49You know, while I have you here, because now you're your new gig. Your job is really working

1:12:54as... are you an angel investor or a VC?

1:12:58A VC.

1:12:59You're a VC.

1:13:00Yeah, just doing seed level investments. So smaller, kind of angel-sized investments in

1:13:05a way, but yeah.

1:13:06So I want you to explain to me the Facebook IPO.

1:13:09Sure.

1:13:10Here's what I... I don't understand why it's being called a disaster. I don't understand.

1:13:15It seems to me like it must – it's gone down, so that's not good.

1:13:19But it seems to me like it was mostly – at least on day one, it was priced kind of right,

1:13:24because – now, this is my very, very layman's – this is so outside my wheelhouse that

1:13:28maybe I'm just totally off base – is that it was like, what was it, $30, $38 or $32?

1:13:34Whatever it was.

1:13:35Yeah, $34 or $38, something like that.

1:13:37But it seemed to me like if you were on the inside, you got it at – there is one of

1:13:42the banks that was doing the IPO.

1:13:43You got it at 38 bucks.

1:13:45if you jumped on it right when the bell rang, if you could get your trade in, then you were

1:13:49getting it at the same price. That seems fair to me.

1:13:52Yeah.

1:13:53What do people want? People want it to double? That seems to me like you're saying that it's

1:13:58cooked in favor of the banks who got it at the price before it doubled.

1:14:02Yes, that's exactly right. I mean, my take on it is exactly pretty much what you said,

1:14:07that this, you know, the perception of it is not the reality. The reality is that Facebook

1:14:12made as much money as possible as they could have off of an IPO. And say they had priced

1:14:18it at $15 or something and then it opened at $35, that would have been, wow, everyone's

1:14:25like wow, there's so much demand for these Facebook shares or whatever. But Facebook

1:14:29would have made actually half the money because they would have only sold half for what they

1:14:37could have basically. And so Facebook came out very well from this and I think that they're

1:14:43all looking at this right now and they just don't care. They had to go public, it was

1:14:47kind of an annoying thing for them to do for a while. They kind of rallied around it at

1:14:52the end and they did raise something like $16 billion as a result of it. But they did

1:14:57as well as they possibly could. It's a loss really for the people who are looking to get

1:15:04typically happens, at least with tech stocks, where there's a pop, and so people want to

1:15:09get on it on day one, get the 20 to 50 percent whatever it's going to be pop, and then sell

1:15:15quickly and they're pissed off because that didn't happen, and instead they ended up losing

1:15:20money if you tried to do that. But it's a silly thing. If you're going to buy Facebook

1:15:24stock, first of all, there's a lot of talk right now that the financials aren't strong

1:15:28and that there was some insider knowledge about it that was only passed to certain people,

1:15:33And you know, those things will get looked into and maybe there's something to that.

1:15:36It sounds like nothing that actually happened was illegal, it was just kind of, that's the

1:15:40way it works right now.

1:15:41You know, Sir Morgan Stanley led the IPO and they let certain people know like what data

1:15:45they had.

1:15:46But the reality of the situation is if you were going to buy Facebook stock, you know,

1:15:50you really should have known what you were buying to begin with.

1:15:53It's not like any of this data is really secret or kind of hard to understand, you just need

1:15:57to do a little bit of homework.

1:15:59And if you're buying Facebook stock, you really should be buying it at the, you know, the

1:16:02IPO price and thinking it's a long-term bet, not some sort of stock pop thing. We've been

1:16:08in this mentality of these tech IPOs throughout the past however long, you know, decade now,

1:16:13where these things initially pop and everyone is expecting it to pop, and so when it didn't

1:16:17pop people are wondering, you know, what does that mean? Is everything crashing? Is this

1:16:23the end of tech itself? But, you know, right now the stock I'm looking at is at $26. I

1:16:29I would bet in a year it'll be somewhere around the IPO level, maybe above it, and that's

1:16:33just the way it's going to be until Facebook grows into a more mature company and they

1:16:37start producing more substantial revenues that justify the pricing of it.

1:16:45I think people in the tech press in general, obviously they like to play up the story that

1:16:50it was a huge failure.

1:16:51There were certain things that NASDAQ really screwed up on, and that certainly is going

1:16:57to play out over the next several months when more companies start to IPO? Do they go with

1:17:01the New York Stock Exchange instead of NASDAQ?

1:17:03It seems like that was part of the piling on, though. That's not Facebook's fault.

1:17:08I mean, I guess you can fault them for going with NASDAQ rather than going with the New

1:17:11York Stock Exchange. But it's sort of like a piling on, though, where I saw that there's

1:17:16this sort of – and again, I'm not really – I don't use Facebook, but I actually

1:17:24really am kind of fascinated by the company and I'm very interested in

1:17:27Zuckerberg because I feel like he is one of those rare guys. He's like a Bill

1:17:32Gates, Steve Jobs, once-in-a-lifetime sort of or once-in-a-generation unique

1:17:39individual. And if I were, I didn't, you know, I don't have any money in Facebook

1:17:45but if I did it wouldn't be because I like the product, it would be because I'd

1:17:48like to place a bet on him long term. And I still think, I think that's exactly

1:17:52why Amazon has such a high... what's the...

1:17:57Price to earnings.

1:17:58Yeah, price to earnings is people betting on Jeff Bezos.

1:18:03Yes.

1:18:04Which I think is a smart bet.

1:18:05I would, you know, I don't have Amazon stock either, but I wouldn't mind having some Amazon...

1:18:09I certainly would think about it, and if I did, it would be betting on Jeff Bezos, because

1:18:13I think he's very smart.

1:18:15He's that type of guy.

1:18:16And that's a good way to think about it, because you look at Amazon's business and you see,

1:18:19the profits are falling actually because of some of the hardware stuff they're kind of

1:18:24trying to do and the margins aren't great at all, but it's a total long-term bet that

1:18:28they'll just be able to kind of outmaneuver everyone coming their way and Facebook now

1:18:34kind of outmaneuver in the space that they're in and that they'll kind of be like we were

1:18:38just talking about the brands that are using it as their webpage, they're now like a part

1:18:42of the fabric of the web that's kind of irreplaceable. And some people don't agree with that of course,

1:18:48that would be the bet you're making. I think you kind of hit upon it too, the other kind

1:18:54of backlash element I guess of the Facebook IPO was the fact that their price to earnings

1:18:58ratio is insane and their market cap was going to be about 100 billion and now it's closer

1:19:03to like 60 billion or something like that and you think about that in relation to these

1:19:07other companies that are making, like Apple and Google, that are making way, way, way

1:19:13more revenue and of course profit and you know Facebook's not that far away at a hundred

1:19:19billion from Google which is what I think two hundred billion and so like how can you

1:19:25possibly justify it and it just happens to be that you know Facebook had the biggest

1:19:28tech IPO of all time it was there was a lot of pent up demand for it and now that people

1:19:34you know have sensed that there's some way that they can spin this as a failure it's

1:19:39It's kind of, you know, everyone likes to be the first to call the top of the market,

1:19:44and now it's going down from here.

1:19:45But it just doesn't seem like that's really…

1:19:47But I got…

1:19:48Yeah, and I'm glad to hear that from you, because I just had this sense that the press

1:19:51coverage was like the knives were ready to come out, if it did anything but shoot way

1:19:55up.

1:19:56And then they just piled on with the fact that there were technical problems on NASDAQs

1:20:01and that they just threw in, and it just became this very neat narrative that Facebook's

1:20:07IPO is a disaster.

1:20:08It was certainly not a disaster for them.

1:20:12Right, and then anything that could possibly fit into that basic story,

1:20:16the Facebook IPO disaster, they would just throw in there. Everything else gets

1:20:20tossed into that pile. And I thought it was sort of a "we were just waiting to jump on you"

1:20:24thing, much like Antennagate was for Apple.

1:20:28We've been waiting for something like this, and now we're gonna

1:20:32beat it until it's dead. And the unfortunate side effect of some of this is

1:20:36is that there are companies now who are going to be a little hesitant to go public, and

1:20:41maybe that's right, maybe they should be more hesitant to go public. You look at Groupon

1:20:48and some of these other ones that are struggling, but they're hesitant not for maybe the right

1:20:54reason. They're hesitant because they don't want to get the same kind of press backlash

1:20:57that Facebook got, which is totally ridiculous, and there's not much really you can do about

1:21:04that but it's a... Here's the other thing that I see is big picture wise at the

1:21:11Silicon Valley poker table is you know in that whole enemy of the enemy is my

1:21:18friend mindset is that Google is to me the new Microsoft where they're the ones

1:21:24who are sticking their fingers in everybody else's pies and not making

1:21:30any friends and spoiling the friends that they had, right? Because I still, it's so

1:21:37hard to think, I mean, in terms of how far this industry can go in five years is that

1:21:41when the iPhone was introduced, there's Eric Schmidt invited up on stage, backslapping

1:21:46with Steve Jobs, talking about what great almost sibling companies, Google and Apple

1:21:51are. Apple's doing their thing and we're doing our thing and it's totally separate and we

1:21:55love each other and we're so happy to have a couple of services on the iPhone. This is

1:21:59is going to be great. And now look where they are. The way I see it is Google has really

1:22:04made enemies of everybody. And it just makes a lot more natural to see something like Facebook

1:22:11integration in iOS and some significant keynote time Monday devoted to that.

1:22:18Yeah. I do. Yeah. Along those lines, I wonder if Apple back channel was talking with Facebook

1:22:25and making sure that they get some sort of, not exclusive partnership, but better access

1:22:32than Facebook is willing to give to something like Android.

1:22:39While Google and Facebook are at odds for other reasons, and social and different areas

1:22:47right now, Facebook is really...they still have to play nice with Android because so

1:22:52much of their business is mobile and Android is a large part of the mobile ecosystem.

1:22:57So they have to play nice with it.

1:22:58But I do wonder if there's some sort of behind-the-scenes thing going on with Apple and Facebook where

1:23:03it's a little bit of an anti-Google tilt going on.

1:23:07Right.

1:23:08I just see it that everybody's an enemy with Google.

1:23:14And it's one of those things like we were talking about earlier where they just don't

1:23:17... You talk to them and they don't have that ... They just don't seem to be aware of this,

1:23:22though it's not like a big secret and anyone can see it, you can talk to people who basically

1:23:27say it, everyone is sort of, if they're not Google's enemy right now, they feel like Google's

1:23:32going to move in their space because Google just keeps doing that over and over and over

1:23:36again now. You know, the best relationship they have, I guess, is with Samsung because

1:23:40Samsung's the one company doing well off of Android, but, you know, we'll see what happens

1:23:46with this Motorola stuff. You know, that could go sideways as well.

1:23:50You know, it does seem like they're oblivious about it.

1:23:52I really--and that's, to me, is a difference for them when Microsoft was the enemy of everybody

1:23:57in the Valley.

1:23:58Microsoft seemed very self-aware of their role, that they were, you know, making enemies

1:24:03of everybody.

1:24:04And anybody who was making a profit at Microsoft was going to try to steal that market.

1:24:09And they seemed very aware of that.

1:24:11Google does not.

1:24:12Google seems to think that they're still everybody's friend, but everybody else kind of hates them.

1:24:15Yeah.

1:24:16very weird sense of entitlement at a company level that seems to be going on.

1:24:23I'll just try to wrap this up. We've been going for about an hour and a half. Any other WWDC predictions?

1:24:27What do you think about my idea of Apple TV apps? I've got nothing. I have no inside dope on that.

1:24:33Nobody has whispered anything to me about that. The only hint I have of that, the only actual info,

1:24:39is that I know that the new Apple TV has Bluetooth 4 hardware in there.

1:24:43And that Apple's not using that for anything yet.

1:24:47- Yep, that's true.

1:24:49And the latest iPhone has it as well, right?

1:24:53- Right.

1:24:53- Okay, so, right.

1:24:55I don't know, I haven't heard anything either

1:24:57about any kind of Apple TV app stuff.

1:24:59I mean, it's gotta happen eventually, of course.

1:25:02And they already have some element of it.

1:25:04They have their own apps that they've built for Netflix

1:25:07and MLB and the different ones.

1:25:11that would be a pretty awesome thing if they did that because

1:25:15everyone's been waiting for it.

1:25:16And now the timing would be kind of interesting too because

1:25:20it's right after the CES stuff where we had the game systems

1:25:25out there.

1:25:26And you've got what Nintendo's doing now and Microsoft is

1:25:29waiting till next year to do their new system.

1:25:31Same with Sony.

1:25:32And so there is this intro to the market right here.

1:25:36And if Apple allows apps, then presumably a lot of those

1:25:40be games again. That could be a fascinating way to play it. I don't know if that will

1:25:46happen or not. But, yeah. I mean, they did just redesign the interface, right? When did

1:25:51that come out?

1:25:53That was at the iPad event. So, end of February.

1:25:57Yep. So...

1:25:59And one thing I've noticed with that, and it's gone to a more iOS home screen type thing

1:26:03where these little rectangles that look like apps, but instead of being squares, they're

1:26:07little 16 to 9 rectangles. And one thing I noticed about that is just like the original

1:26:13iPhone where it was like an uneven number of icons that there was only like one in the

1:26:19bottom row which just begged for those other three spots to be filled in, which didn't

1:26:25necessarily imply third party apps.

1:26:27Right. It could be Apple or it could be third party.

1:26:30Right. But I can't help but think that the Apple TV is the same way where it's an uneven

1:26:35number of those rectangles where it just seems like it's almost like that blank space is

1:26:39a dot dot dot. It's like an ellipsis that's like more to come.

1:26:44Well, I do think like when you just look at the market itself and you see like Microsoft,

1:26:50now there's this big, Microsoft's big push in the press has been that Xbox is winning

1:26:56the battle for the living room, right? And so they're doing all these partnerships with

1:27:03places like ESPN and so it seems natural that Apple would also have some sort of ESPN, you know, Watch Now

1:27:10partnership thing with Apple TV and so maybe

1:27:13Maybe that's something that gets announced

1:27:16ahead of a rather than like a platform for it right now

1:27:20But I also like the idea and I think you put this forward

1:27:25In a subtle way at least that if they do get a platform out there now and they get developers developing for it

1:27:32then if and when they do do you know their actual foray into the space in a

1:27:37more meaningful way

1:27:39they'll have apps they're ready to go and that's like you know they're seeding

1:27:42their own victory right there

1:27:44i can't help but think that if they do it there's gotta be some kind of new

1:27:47hardware maybe not i i i feel like this in the new apple tv that does ten eighty

1:27:51p

1:27:52it's only four months old so they can't just say that one's obsolete but it's

1:27:55got to be like a remote or something that uses bluetooth there's got to be

1:27:58better

1:27:59input than the IR remote.

1:28:01Well, those SKUs that got leaked yesterday or something, I think 9.5 Mac Adam,

1:28:05there were some interesting things in there, right? There were things that

1:28:08weren't known

1:28:09necessarily, like there could be some sort of hardware thing that's

1:28:12totally off the radar that's like, you know, a cheap accessory. So yeah, maybe it

1:28:16is something

1:28:17like some kind of new remote control to specifically control apps in a

1:28:20different way.

1:28:22And then, uh...

1:28:24Well, you go ahead. Go ahead.

1:28:26What do you think about, you know, I think we can all assume we're not going to see new iPhone hardware,

1:28:32because the precedent has been set now for that in the fall, but if, as all indications seem to be lining up,

1:28:40that there is going to be this new screen size, how do you think they're going to play that with iOS 6?

1:28:46I think you've said before that they'll do it in a way that's not obvious,

1:28:51but that they'll have something to kind of drop a hint that something will be changing about it.

1:28:55How do you think they do that?

1:28:57Either not at all, and just trust that when they do the announcement in September, October,

1:29:04whenever the new phone comes out, that they'll say, "Look, this phone is shipping next week,

1:29:10and developers go to blah, blah, blah address and find out how to update your apps.

1:29:16Oh, and we have these guys here with us who we've brought in a month ago, and they've

1:29:20updated their apps."

1:29:21Right.

1:29:22talk about how they spent 15 minutes and got their app to do the new size. Or, you know,

1:29:27like my conjecture was that they could do it in the context of maybe even just --

1:29:32Adam: The notifications, right?

1:29:33Justin: Yeah. Like being flexible about making room for that and doing it web OS style. Like

1:29:38I know a lot of people hail the multitasking interface of web OS as like the card thing,

1:29:45which I never really liked. I didn't like that. I thought it was confusing the way that

1:29:50I was not a fan of that, but I thought the best idea in web OS was the way their notifications

1:29:54didn't cover content, that they shrunk the content and stood there.

1:29:59I thought that was their best idea, and I think it's silly having seen it the way that

1:30:03on iOS the banners cover up content.

1:30:07So I think if they could do it that way, they could get you to be flexible, although it

1:30:11doesn't cover the horizontal case, where when you're holding the phone sideways, it doesn't

1:30:16explain why you'd want to be flexible horizontally.

1:30:19So I don't know.

1:30:20That is a mystery to me.

1:30:21I think bottom line is I totally believe Tim Cook's line at the D conference last week

1:30:30that they're doubling down on secrecy.

1:30:32I don't think anything is – I don't think things have ever been as tight out of Cupertino

1:30:36since I've been following the company.

1:30:38The only place that leaks is Asia.

1:30:41It's the supply chain.

1:30:42So all – and that's a little bit outside Apple's control, right?

1:30:46like these faceplates and stuff like that that leak from manufacturing in China. That's

1:30:51a little bit outside their control. The stuff that's completely in their control, the stuff

1:30:55that is actually happening in Cupertino, California, it has never been more tight-lipped. And the

1:31:00best example of that is Mountain Lion. I mean, Mountain Lion came out of the blue. I remember

1:31:04talking to you on the phone.

1:31:06Yeah, we were trying to guess what it would be.

1:31:08Right, like a day or two before those briefings started in February, I believe it was.

1:31:14Right.

1:31:15February or January, whenever that was.

1:31:18And number one, there's that game of,

1:31:21hey, did you get the call?

1:31:23Yeah, yeah, I did.

1:31:24I was like, all right, shoo.

1:31:26And then it's like, I feel like then we can,

1:31:28we still can't talk a lot, but we can talk.

1:31:30I was like, do you have any idea what this is about?

1:31:32And we were both like, nope, no idea.

1:31:34- Yeah, I think the best guess was retina max at the time.

1:31:39- Exactly, that was definitely my best guess,

1:31:41and I think that was your best guess, too.

1:31:43No idea.

1:31:44It's just a perfect—and so I'm actually happy about this, right?

1:31:47In a way that I actually feel like I know less about what's going to be announced

1:31:52Monday at WWDC than I have in years.

1:31:54I couldn't be happier about it.

1:31:55It makes me just look forward to it.

1:31:57Yeah, it makes it really exciting.

1:32:00You're right that, of course, Apple can't do all that much to stop the hardware stuff

1:32:06that kind of gets out from the third-party suppliers over in Asia.

1:32:10like iOS, I feel like I heard a little bit about Facebook,

1:32:15heard a little bit about Maps,

1:32:17but the Maps thing was only after someone else

1:32:20had heard something, and so you could kinda put feelers

1:32:22out there for what's out there.

1:32:23But I have no idea anything else.

1:32:25You know that there's gonna be other major changes,

1:32:27and there's nothing really out there,

1:32:28and no one's talking about it.

1:32:29- And my gut feeling is that it's kinda gonna be

1:32:32a big keynote, that they've got a lot to announce,

1:32:35and that we just don't know what it is yet.

1:32:37'Cause compare and contrast to last year,

1:32:39where they actually put out a press release the week before

1:32:43where they said what they were going to cover.

1:32:45Yeah, that was very unusual.

1:32:47Yeah.

1:32:48In fact, even pretty much tipped the beans on iCloud.

1:32:52I'm not sure they named it, but they

1:32:54said Apple's upcoming cloud base--

1:32:56Why did they do that?

1:32:58Do you have any good reason for why now,

1:33:00like looking back at it?

1:33:01They did say that they were going to do iCloud.

1:33:04There had been a lot of rumors that iCloud was coming,

1:33:06But it's like, why do you--

1:33:08Is it acceptable for me to say I was right?

1:33:12Is that going to-- is that self-serving?

1:33:14I think I was right when they did it last year.

1:33:16When I linked to their PR during Fireball, my guess was--

1:33:19and I think in hindsight it was exactly right--

1:33:21was that it was specifically to set the stage for no hardware

1:33:26announcements.

1:33:27Right, OK.

1:33:28Yeah.

1:33:29To make it clear to everybody, we're

1:33:31going to tell you what we're going to talk about,

1:33:33just so that everybody will know we're not

1:33:35going to do a new phone because they've done this new phone in the spring all the time.

1:33:38That's a very good point. They made it pretty clear that they wanted...

1:33:44My guess is that Jobs hated doing that PR, but I think he agreed that it had to set that

1:33:51into submission.

1:33:52He knew, yeah, because just imagine what the backlash should have been had it been set

1:33:56up that, "Well, we get a new iPhone every year, and wait a minute, there's no new iPhone

1:34:01this year, and no one had any idea, and that's the surprise, that there's nothing." And,

1:34:05know, this is the downfall of Apple. Apple's slipping, you know, like what's

1:34:08what's happening here? Because the one thing that I find myself losing

1:34:13track of sometimes, and it's just a way to center myself covering the company, is

1:34:17to keep in mind that I get excited about cool new stuff that Apple does, no matter

1:34:22what. I think it's cool and it's new, I get excited about it, I'm

1:34:24interested in it. But there's a big difference between some of the stuff

1:34:27they do and some of the other stuff, which is, is it something that they're

1:34:31selling or is it just something they're improving, right? So last year's

1:34:35thing was mostly... that's the thing, it was nothing that they were going to sell.

1:34:40Like iCloud is something they just gave to everybody.

1:34:44And so financially, you know, and that's... you have to, you know, never forget that it's,

1:34:49you know, it's all about the money. I feel like this year it's going to be about

1:34:54stuff that they're selling, or at least a big part of it.

1:34:58Yeah, and that's, I mean, have they ever updated every single Mac in their line at the exact

1:35:04same time?

1:35:05No, never.

1:35:06And so that's, and the best part about that is that it probably still won't be the focal

1:35:12point of the keynote, because iOS is so much bigger.

1:35:15Right, yeah, that's what I think.

1:35:18I think it'll probably start out with the Mac, and then, you know, and congratulations,

1:35:23you know, whatever Mac you're using, whatever one you like, guess what, there's a new Retina

1:35:26version of it, I think.

1:35:27That's what I think they're gonna do and then now we'll do the overview of mountain lion again

1:35:32You know, they like to do nice those the ten things or whatever that that are that are new and different

1:35:37Right and then yeah and then go into iOS. Yep

1:35:40Well, I think that's a show I want to thank our sponsors again excellent creations that's XC e ll ENT creations excellent creations

1:35:50Com they have a special website

1:35:52WWDC

1:35:542012 dot excellent creations comm check them out if you're looking for a mobile developer or looking for a new job as a mobile developer and

1:36:01IDA

1:36:03Great beautiful new list app for the iPhone and iPad you can find out more about that at nice mohawk

1:36:11calm

1:36:12Happen to know that the developer of IDA has in fact a very nice mohawk

1:36:16It's true

1:36:20I wonder if that's you know, I don't know if that's legal though

1:36:22If he asked if you could require all of your employees to have a mohawk

1:36:26That would be a good one. I do know that Ben Ben Lockman know the founder of the company does now

1:36:32He's kind of stuck with I have to ask him about that now that he's named the company nice mohawk

1:36:35I wonder if he's kind of stuck with the haircut, right?

1:36:37I mean, he's 60 still have the mohawk even though he's no hair

1:36:40He has to get a hair hair implants to keep the mohawk going

1:36:45Right, like it would have been trouble for Apple if they were somehow named in 1978 after

1:36:50Steve Jobs then thick luscious head full of hair.

1:36:59I want to prove them.

1:37:01[BLANK_AUDIO]