Under the Radar

11: Ad-Funded Apps


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04   I'm Marco Arment. And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than

00:00:08   30 minutes, so let's get started. So this week we're going to talk a little bit about

00:00:12   iAd and ad-driven app revenue models because

00:00:16   there's some news this past week that iAd

00:00:20   was shutting down part of its offerings and

00:00:24   it's shutting down what's called the App Network. And a lot of people, it was a very confusing message and a lot

00:00:28   of people kind of thought this was shutting down all of iAd, and it's kind of confusing

00:00:32   as to what parts of iAd are left. And David, since you have a lot of experience with ad-funded

00:00:39   apps, and I think most developers who most people hear from in podcasts and stuff don't

00:00:46   have a lot of experience. Most developers in podcasts and who have blogs and stuff are

00:00:50   trying to sell paid apps, or at least free apps with paid and app purchases. And I don't

00:00:55   hear a lot of discussion from people who have much or any experience, especially significant

00:01:00   experience with ad-driven revenue models and apps. And you do. So I'd love to hear a

00:01:08   lot from you on this, with your experiences and your thoughts around what's going on

00:01:14   with ads, what kind of led to this point, what the reality is of ad-funded app development

00:01:21   today and then what this announcement really means and what it might mean for you.

00:01:25   So I definitely wanted to dive into a little bit of first of like the background of where

00:01:30   I'm coming from with ads. And so like whenever I think about revenue for an application,

00:01:34   the first thing obviously is like you think about, "Well, how am I going to make money?"

00:01:38   And you can really make money in three main ways. Like you can have an ongoing payment

00:01:43   from somebody, you know, something like a subscription. You can get a one-time payment

00:01:47   from your customer, which is the typical

00:01:50   sort of like paid up front model.

00:01:52   And then you'd have something where you get no payment

00:01:54   from your customer.

00:01:56   And so you're either then relying on advertising

00:01:58   where someone else is paying you for that customer

00:02:01   to use your application, or you have just no revenue at all,

00:02:04   in which case you're probably, you know,

00:02:05   you're going for some kind of market share play

00:02:08   or something where direct revenue isn't important to you.

00:02:12   And so why would you end up using advertising?

00:02:15   an application that's going to have a lot of people and the majority of which who don't

00:02:19   want to actually pay to use your application with money, which is a lot of applications,

00:02:24   especially in the iOS app store. And so I've used advertising in almost all of my app,

00:02:31   for almost the entire length of my history of being an app developer. One of my earliest

00:02:37   apps, I even originally built my own app network and was just trying to do direct sales for

00:02:41   it and that didn't really work in scale. And so I pretty quickly moved to I think back

00:02:45   then this was probably in 2009 ish. It was probably AdMob, I think was the big one back

00:02:52   then. Then at you know, I had was introduced in 2010. And so I jumped onto using that as

00:02:59   quickly as I could. And I had always did pretty well for me, you know, so apples, it was Apple's

00:03:04   platform, it was nice and integrated into the platform. And it did well, you know, I

00:03:09   got pretty good fill rates, which is the amount of time that I ask for an ad that I actually

00:03:13   get one back. For me, it was usually like three quarters to almost like 98%, I think,

00:03:18   often for fill rates. I had pretty quality ads, good revenue, and I was overall generally

00:03:23   pretty happy with it. Like, over time, the quality of iAd has certainly changed, but

00:03:29   I think it's probably more in some ways a reflection on how the store has changed since

00:03:35   like 2010, where now a lot of the ads are just for, you know, sort of like the Candy

00:03:41   Crush Game of War kind of games, where it's all about trying to drive downloads for apps

00:03:49   that are then used in-app purchase to get revenue from people. And so that's what

00:03:54   most of my ads are for, which means, you know, they're not, it's not great. They're

00:03:58   not awesome things. But at this point, like, apps or advertising probably makes somewhere

00:04:03   between 40 to 45 percent of the revenue I get, and it's definitely the biggest source

00:04:09   of revenue from my most important apps to me. And so that's kind of a weird place

00:04:14   to find myself now that I find that iAd is going to be shutting down or closing or doing

00:04:20   something dramatic in the next couple of, I think by June or so it'll be changing.

00:04:26   And I don't think we know exactly what it's going to look like after that, but it's

00:04:29   definitely going to be different.

00:04:30   >>Steve - So I know that you talk about the fill rate, and I've heard various things.

00:04:35   I've heard from people who aren't happy with iAds fill rate.

00:04:38   Is it getting worse over time?

00:04:40   >>Joe - It varies.

00:04:41   And so this is one of those funny things with advertising.

00:04:43   I've heard from some people who get, because it's all based, the ads that you get are always

00:04:48   going to be based on the demographics of the people who use your app, and how they use

00:04:53   it, and some kind of secret algorithm that is trying to pair people up.

00:04:58   And so for my apps, for audiobooks and Podometer++,

00:05:02   I've usually had pretty good fill rates.

00:05:04   I wouldn't say they've gone down over time.

00:05:06   Maybe some of the rates have gone down over time.

00:05:08   But those are even really hard to track

00:05:10   because they're so cyclical.

00:05:11   Every January 1, my advertising rates drop by at least a half

00:05:17   because everyone's advertising budgets were all spent up

00:05:22   until then, and no one buys ads the first couple

00:05:25   weeks of January.

00:05:26   And so things cycle dramatically.

00:05:28   But I would say iAd is, maybe it's gotten done down slightly.

00:05:33   I think overall in the advertising market,

00:05:35   I think in a lot of ways things are going down.

00:05:37   And the weird thing to do then is

00:05:39   start having to balance those.

00:05:41   Like, what kind of ads are you even talking about?

00:05:44   Most of my apps only do banner ads.

00:05:46   You can also do interstitials and more aggressive forms

00:05:50   of advertising that completely take over the application

00:05:52   until you watch a 30-second video or those types of things,

00:05:56   which obviously get better and better rates accordingly.

00:05:59   - Right, but of course annoy people more and more.

00:06:01   - Yes, yep.

00:06:03   - I mean, that's always a tricky balance with advertising

00:06:04   is like what works is being more intrusive

00:06:08   and more annoying.

00:06:09   And like you can, there are things that work

00:06:12   that aren't intrusive and annoying,

00:06:14   but there's always this constant tension,

00:06:15   this pressure to make a little bit more

00:06:18   or to combat some other kind of downturn

00:06:21   by just making things a little bit more annoying

00:06:23   or a little bit more creepy in data privacy issues

00:06:26   things like that. There's always these pressures, and a lot of times people have to cave to

00:06:30   those things in order to even survive, to have their businesses survive. It's a very

00:06:35   tricky balance. And in some areas, like in podcasting right now, we are lucky that podcast

00:06:41   advertising right now is still very high quality and that we're able to command great rates

00:06:45   and have ads that aren't too annoying because of the nature of the medium and the market

00:06:50   conditions right now. But apps, I think, are similar to the web in that it's very, very

00:06:55   hard to get great ad rates for in-app ads. I mean, have you found that to be the case?

00:07:02   >>

00:07:02   >>

00:07:08   There is money to be made there, but the volumes you need to make a living doing it is pretty

00:07:16   substantial.

00:07:17   This may be the better way to look at it, in much the same way as with the web or something,

00:07:20   where, like you say, with a podcast, the number of listeners you have to have before you can

00:07:24   have a non-substantial revenue coming from a podcast is dramatically less than the number

00:07:31   of users you need for an application to have any kind of real tangible revenue. You're

00:07:37   talking about probably tens if not hundreds of thousands of users a day of your application

00:07:44   before you're going to be getting into something that you could really make a run at, which

00:07:49   is -- and you have to keep doing it all the time. In some ways it's nice because advertising

00:07:54   is based on people using your application. And so in some ways it's nice -- I've always

00:07:59   said that I like that it aligns my people using the application with the revenue I get.

00:08:04   So if I engage people more, if I make people really like the app and come back to it time

00:08:08   and time again, my revenue goes up, which is nice. But it still always creates all these

00:08:15   weird tensions for like, "Well, what if there was another way that I could get people

00:08:18   back into the application? What if I sent them a push notification that said, 'Hey,

00:08:23   you haven't checked your steps in a while. Maybe you should.'"

00:08:26   "You've earned a new step bomb!"

00:08:28   Yeah, like, there's so many things that you start to get into that cross all kinds

00:08:32   of lines that, like, it's a really—it forces you to really be thoughtful in a way

00:08:39   that is a bit weird.

00:08:42   Sometimes I like just the paid app, the paid model, which is nice because it's simple.

00:08:45   Like, in some ways I can just be lazy about it and be like, "Well, they gave me money,

00:08:49   I gave them app."

00:08:50   Like, that's great.

00:08:51   That's nice and simple versus all having to really think about, like, "Does this

00:08:55   cross the line? Is this too aggressive? Is this too annoying? Is this going to work in

00:09:04   a way that is going to ruin my reputation? But it could make me more money, but really

00:09:09   make the app not so good to use? It's some really hard questions that things like advertising

00:09:14   force you to face up to.

00:09:17   >> Enoch: Well, and I think among the Apple enthusiast community, I think ads and apps

00:09:23   for taboo. You don't see people panic making apps with ads in them. The idea of the high-end

00:09:31   indie craft app scene, almost nobody in that scene uses ads in any apps that people have

00:09:38   actually heard of and use. Some people will have a secret app on the side. Like I've

00:09:43   heard David Barnard at App Cub, he always talks about he has this mirror app, and that's

00:09:49   he experiments with revenue model stuff and they have ads in that, that's fine. But you

00:09:54   don't see Tweetbot 5 free with ads or pay to unlock them. You hardly ever see ads in

00:10:02   that kind of high-end app development community. And I think ultimately, I think that's temporary.

00:10:08   I think we will get to a point where ads start moving in just because the other revenue models

00:10:13   are getting so much harder. You know, because as you said, that's a really good point that

00:10:17   It does make sense for apps that are used frequently.

00:10:23   If you have some kind of quick utility app that is hardly ever used, the kind of thing

00:10:28   you keep on your phone for occasional use, or maybe if you're traveling, something like

00:10:33   that, or maybe it's a special kind of unit converter that you only need four times a

00:10:38   year but you're really glad it's there.

00:10:40   In those kind of instances, ad-funded apps probably don't make a lot of sense, but if

00:10:44   If it's something like a news reader, where you're going into that every single day,

00:10:50   and spending meaningful time in it, then I think that makes a lot of sense.

00:10:57   Is it possible for ads in frequently used apps in an environment where there's a lot

00:11:05   of pressure to keep the upfront price down, like the App Store, might ads make more money

00:11:10   for daily use apps than a paid upfront model could?

00:11:15   - I think probably.

00:11:16   I mean, honestly, that's why I do,

00:11:19   like why I have ads in so many of my applications.

00:11:22   It's because that is a way to make more money,

00:11:25   probably, than I would from paid apps.

00:11:27   And for, I mean, it's a bit,

00:11:29   I haven't done too many of these now

00:11:30   because most of my apps, I just,

00:11:31   my default is that the app will be free

00:11:34   with some other form of revenue,

00:11:36   whether it's an in-app purchase or ads, or probably both.

00:11:39   But back in the day, I used to do the kind of, well, you'd have the like ad version

00:11:44   that was free and the paid version that was, you know, that you'd charge for.

00:11:48   And it was like, people could choose, like, do you want the ad free or the other one?

00:11:52   And there was a time when they sort of gave each other a run for their money, but I don't

00:11:56   know, probably for the least the last three or four years, it's been almost entirely

00:12:01   in the free.

00:12:02   Like, and I know this is my own behavior, like that's in some ways the expectation

00:12:06   apps in the App Store now is that they're going to be free to download, and there may

00:12:11   be some other things that are either advertising or an in-app purchase later, but if it's

00:12:16   not free, there's a massive wall, and it feels like the wall is getting bigger and

00:12:20   bigger now.

00:12:21   And so if your goal is to make a living from an app, there's a very good chance that

00:12:26   advertising will need to be something that you at least strongly consider, if not implement

00:12:31   and use in your application.

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00:14:20   So getting back to iAd, what was the announcement?

00:14:24   So the announcement said that they were showing

00:14:25   down the app network.

00:14:27   Can you go into what that was and what's left?

00:14:30   - This is all very ambiguous.

00:14:32   And as somebody who, like I said,

00:14:34   makes a very substantial amount of my revenue from IAD,

00:14:36   I've tried my best to understand this,

00:14:39   be it both from the official announcement they made

00:14:41   and the various bits of rumors or leaks or other things

00:14:45   that sort of--

00:14:46   like, before Apple actually made their official announcement,

00:14:48   there was a bunch of articles from all over the place,

00:14:50   people kind of talking about that Apple was going to be

00:14:53   scaling down their sales team, and they were going

00:14:55   to be changing things around.

00:14:57   So they specifically said that the IAD app network

00:15:00   be discontinued as of June 30th of this year. Although we are no longer accepting new ads

00:15:05   into the apps into the network, advertising campaigns will continue to run and be still

00:15:10   earning advertising revenue until June 30th. As best I understand, like the iAd app network

00:15:16   is one of, it's a term I was, I spent the last like couple of days trying to find a definition

00:15:22   for what that actually means, and I haven't found any. Like, it's, it's the exact, like,

00:15:27   Like it could be that the app network is the part of iAd right now that you use to...

00:15:34   If I wanted to promote my app, I could make an ad for Podometer++, I could put it into

00:15:38   iAd, and then other apps that are showing iAds would be then promoting it for me, and

00:15:45   I'd pay for that.

00:15:46   It could be that.

00:15:47   I think it's also possible that it's the whole way that which ads are being collected and

00:15:52   aggregated right now, both from that and then from the original thing.

00:15:56   Back in 2010, when IAD was first launched, it was supposed to be about big brands.

00:16:00   There was Steve Jobs up on the stage talking about how they were going to partner with

00:16:04   all these big brands to make these really emotional experiences and to raise and elevate

00:16:10   the thing.

00:16:11   That lasted like a month?

00:16:12   Well, it didn't last very long.

00:16:15   That's probably fair to say.

00:16:16   I remember there was a Nissan Leaf had one.

00:16:20   There were a couple of big brands that had them, but it just didn't seem—

00:16:22   I think it might have literally only been a couple.

00:16:25   Yeah.

00:16:26   And that never really went anywhere, and so I don't think it's that.

00:16:27   But it seems like the IAD as we know it now is going to be going away.

00:16:33   From other, not necessarily from Apple's direct announcements, but from some of the other

00:16:37   leaks, it sounds like there will continue to be an IAD framework in iOS.

00:16:44   I'm not completely sure on that.

00:16:46   Like it's possible in iOS 10 that it's just going to go away.

00:16:49   That would seem a little weird, but it's possible.

00:16:51   And it may be replaced by something more algorithmic or straightforward, or it's entirely possible

00:16:56   that Apple is just going to sort of back away from this whole thing.

00:17:00   I mean, I think the reality, though, is either way, whatever is going to happen, as of June

00:17:04   30, the revenue models that are based, like my own, on, you know, substantially on IAD

00:17:09   are likely going to need to be prepared for a change.

00:17:14   Exactly what that looks like.

00:17:15   I'm still honestly working out for myself.

00:17:17   But whatever we're doing, whatever it is, it's likely not going to be as performant

00:17:21   in terms of revenue, or from a fill rate perspective, and all these things, as the major thing they're

00:17:26   doing now. Because it definitely doesn't sound like they're just like, "Oh, we're taking

00:17:30   what we have and going in a different direction." There's definitely like, "We're discontinuing

00:17:33   a large swath of this and going to be potentially replacing it with something, or maybe not

00:17:38   at all." But it's definitely a big, massive change if you use iAd coming in June, presumably

00:17:47   right after WWDC maybe, like,

00:17:49   will I have, they'll announce,

00:17:50   or during WWDC they'll announce what's gonna replace it

00:17:52   or what we need to do, which will be a little short notice,

00:17:55   but something's definitely coming.

00:17:58   - Yeah, I mean, it's interesting,

00:17:59   like, if you think back about, like,

00:18:00   why iAd was created in the first place,

00:18:03   it was to basically, like, Apple saw

00:18:05   that ad networks on mobile were becoming a thing,

00:18:08   ad-funded apps were likely to become, you know,

00:18:09   a big revenue stream, and there were all these

00:18:13   kind of creepy ad companies coming in

00:18:15   trying to make these kind of crappy ad embeds for apps. So I imagine the reason iAd exists

00:18:22   is because Apple—you know, Steve said it right on stage. He said in that announcement

00:18:25   that these things frankly suck and that we think we can do better. And Apple wanted—they

00:18:32   wanted control over this monetization method for themselves. But it didn't really play

00:18:36   out that way. What has played out is, turns out, Apple is not a very good ad company.

00:18:41   It just seems like it's not the kind of thing Apple is good at, especially with all

00:18:45   stances on privacy and everything else, it just seems like running a big ad network kind

00:18:50   of conflicts with what they do. But maybe it's the lesser of two evils because if they

00:18:57   don't run the ad network, then the third party ad networks are the only choice for developers

00:19:02   who have ad supported apps, rather than just being a backup choice. So I wonder, when I

00:19:11   When I first heard the app network was being shut down,

00:19:14   I thought they meant those little templates

00:19:16   developers could use to just make their,

00:19:18   rather than having the whole interactive experience,

00:19:20   it was like this template that you,

00:19:21   as any developer could sign up,

00:19:23   and you'd basically get like an image,

00:19:24   and if it was tapped, it would show

00:19:26   like a little app store slide up sheet.

00:19:28   So you wouldn't have to really do any custom programming.

00:19:30   There wouldn't be any custom interactivity.

00:19:32   It would just be a banner image for your app,

00:19:34   and people tap it, and it shows the app store page.

00:19:37   And I actually, did you ever pay for those?

00:19:39   Did you ever buy those before?

00:19:41   I've tried them.

00:19:42   They never worked for me.

00:19:43   I mean, I think they only work for an application that you are going-- if you are really going--

00:19:49   if the value of each customer to you is quite a lot, which I imagine if you're one of these

00:19:55   free-to-play-game kind of things, you can probably get to there, where if you're paying

00:19:58   a few dollars to acquire a new user, that's actually worthwhile to you overall, because

00:20:04   the average value of a customer is bigger than that.

00:20:07   But for me, it never made sense.

00:20:09   for my paid applications. There's my average, like the amount of money I typically would

00:20:13   get from somebody is just so low in comparison that it just never made sense.

00:20:18   >>Trevor

00:20:18   Yeah, that's too bad. So it could be that they're shutting that down because the economics

00:20:23   have just made it not that effective for most developers. Or it could be that the app network

00:20:28   might mean running all iAds in people's apps, in which case they would just--because

00:20:33   like the new Apple News app still uses iAd. And so maybe they're saying everything else

00:20:40   about iAd is being shut down except for the ones running in Apple's own apps. Or maybe

00:20:44   they're saying only those special little developer template ones are getting shut down. Who knows?

00:20:49   But assuming it's the former, that nobody will be able to use iAd in their apps anymore,

00:20:55   which would be the part that you're thinking would probably be the worst case scenario

00:20:59   here, where would you go, what would you do next? Are there third-party options that are

00:21:04   any good? Is there any kind of clear winner? What is the landscape like, as far as you

00:21:10   know?

00:21:11   So this is the part that makes me really sad with this news.

00:21:16   And I totally understand.

00:21:18   It's always been a bit of an odd thing for Apple

00:21:20   to be in the advertising business,

00:21:22   because so much of what they do is completely

00:21:24   orthogonal to that.

00:21:25   They're not-- in general, they're

00:21:27   all about having really strong privacy

00:21:29   and having all kinds of things like that that are all about,

00:21:32   we want to know what's least about you,

00:21:34   and we're going to give you a premium experience, which is

00:21:36   typically not the advertising model.

00:21:39   And so what I've always liked is that, hey, they

00:21:41   have this advertising network, and so I don't actually do any backfilling in any of my apps.

00:21:49   I don't do the thing where it's like, even though I don't get 100% fill, I'm okay with

00:21:54   that, because I'm like, "You know what? iAds are good," and I've never seen an iAd in my

00:21:57   application that made me feel really uncomfortable. I don't feel great about some of them, but

00:22:05   if you just open the floodgates to every ad ever, we all kind of know where that goes.

00:22:11   look at the web right now, the kind of ads that you start to see at the bottom of like,

00:22:15   "Hey, if you like this story, you may also like these other stories about horrible things."

00:22:19   Right. Or just total scams.

00:22:21   Yeah. It's terrible. And that's where, ultimately, I imagine a lot of advertising

00:22:26   will go in apps as well. And I like that. At least I felt like Apple with iAd was like

00:22:31   a firewall against that. And I could say, "Okay, maybe I'm making a bit less money

00:22:37   doing this, but I feel confident that what I'm going to end up with isn't terrible and

00:22:41   make me feel squirm and I'm going to get screenshots from people being like, "Look at the ad that

00:22:45   your app was showing me," and for some awful thing.

00:22:49   So where I'm going now is kind of a weird and open question.

00:22:52   There are so many ad networks that it's kind of crazy, and a lot of them have really complicated

00:23:01   or confusing names.

00:23:03   We have AdMob, AdColony, AdFalcon, AdRally, ModFox, TapIt, Vidobia, Vungle, TapJump.

00:23:12   Are these real?

00:23:13   These are actual ones that I was recently just like, I was quickly before we were preparing,

00:23:16   I was like pulling in these names and I'm like, "Those are some ad networks that exist

00:23:19   right now."

00:23:20   Sounds like parody names.

00:23:22   Yeah, but like that's what we have and there's dozens of them.

00:23:25   And I mean, I imagine the biggest ones like AdMob is probably one of the bigger ones because

00:23:28   it's run by Google, who is obviously like one of the biggest advertising companies in

00:23:32   in the world, if not the biggest.

00:23:33   I'm sure Apple loves that.

00:23:36   I think you can do some things with Facebook.

00:23:38   There's a few others that are kind of big.

00:23:40   But what I'm going to be facing now

00:23:42   is this weird question of, well, do I just pick another one

00:23:45   and hope for the best?

00:23:47   Do I use kind of an aggregator, which

00:23:49   is a way a lot of people do this type of thing,

00:23:51   where you'll download this big, massive blob

00:23:55   of third-party code.

00:23:57   You'll shove it into your application.

00:23:58   And it includes all the SDKs for dozens of different advertising

00:24:03   networks.

00:24:04   And you'll sign up for all of them.

00:24:05   And you'll be bidding back and forth between them

00:24:08   so that whoever has the best ad for you right now, you'll show.

00:24:11   And you'll switch between them dynamically.

00:24:14   But the more you do that, the less control

00:24:16   you ultimately have on what you're showing in your app.

00:24:20   And also, the thing that always makes me nervous is now,

00:24:23   the more third-party code I have to put in my application,

00:24:26   That's really scary, both from customer privacy concerns and things.

00:24:31   They could be doing all kinds of things in my applications that I maybe wouldn't really

00:24:36   like.

00:24:37   It's like, for all I know, they're going to be popping up all kinds of permission requests

00:24:42   in my application that my customers assume are me asking for it, rather than them.

00:24:47   That's something that they could entirely do, because I'm running their code that

00:24:52   I probably can't see the source of.

00:24:54   - Yeah, not to mention making network requests

00:24:56   or anything like that, or even just any kind of use

00:25:01   of private APIs, if they get in trouble for that,

00:25:03   then really you're getting in trouble for that.

00:25:05   It's a huge risk.

00:25:07   - Yeah, and I love that IAD, at least,

00:25:08   it was a system framework.

00:25:10   It shipped in the OS.

00:25:11   I had to bundle nothing.

00:25:12   It was just, in the same way, it's just like me including

00:25:15   using HealthKit in my application or using AV Foundation.

00:25:19   Using IAD was just a thing.

00:25:21   And if I'm not gonna be able to do that,

00:25:23   at some point I'm going to have to include some code that I don't really want to include,

00:25:29   or I have to decide that, you know what, I'm just going to have to radically change my

00:25:33   business and move away from this. Because there's ultimately, like, there's going

00:25:38   to be some kind of a line that I have to find between, like, how comfortable am I with,

00:25:43   you know, whoever they are. And I'm sure if I talk to the salesman at these various

00:25:47   companies, I'm sure they'll all be, "Oh no, we take privacy very seriously, it's

00:25:50   It's very important to us.

00:25:51   But like, I felt comfortable when Apple did that, but there's very few companies that

00:25:57   I would feel comfortable about that.

00:25:59   And ultimately, I'll probably, like my gut says, I'll end up, at least initially, planning

00:26:04   to go to something like Google, if not—not because I think Google's a not creepy company,

00:26:09   but at least they're a big enough company that if they were doing something truly dubious,

00:26:15   like it would be well known and they would probably be held more accountable to it than

00:26:19   like some kind of fly-by-night VC-funded thing that just sort of appeared one day, and I

00:26:24   was like, "Oh, we have great rates and awesome ads. Maybe you do, but you don't have a lot

00:26:30   of history there in a way that I'm less worried." If Google's being really sketchy, at least

00:26:35   I met people who were going to know that and hold them accountable to that, at least somewhat.

00:26:42   But I don't know. It's really something that I'm kind of struggling with right now, is

00:26:46   exactly where I'm going to go, because if I had truly did just go away and just disappeared

00:26:51   from my app, it's like, there goes 40% of my business in terms of revenue just disappeared.

00:26:58   And so I need to work out how far down that road I feel comfortable with, with other people's

00:27:04   code, other people's showing things in my apps that really maybe I don't agree with

00:27:11   or like, but ultimately I have to ship a product that I feel comfortable with. So it's going

00:27:17   to be a really interesting next couple of months as I kind of filter through that.

00:27:21   All right, well, best of luck. I think your plan sounds about right. I think I agree that

00:27:25   going to one of the biggest companies that is most reputable, AdMob or Google, that makes

00:27:33   the most sense, I think. Because you're right, I think even though any ad company

00:27:37   is creepy to some degree, I think the giant ones like Google, they're probably the least

00:27:43   creepy among a bunch of very creepy companies. The smaller ones are way scarier to me. So

00:27:50   alright, well that's, I think that wraps it up for today. Best of luck with that, and

00:27:54   I hope, I'm sure we'll be talking about this more as you get new experience with these

00:27:59   things over time, and so I look forward to hearing more about it as this whole thing

00:28:04   unfolds. So thanks a lot to everybody for listening. Please recommend us

00:28:09   on Overcast and you can review us on iTunes if anybody still uses that and we

00:28:14   will talk to you next week. Thank you everyone for listening and we'll see you

00:28:16   next week. Bye.