Under the Radar

232: SF Symbols


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04   I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05   And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06   Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:09   So a while back we had an episode, I forget what we titled it, but it was something like, you know,

00:00:14   "designed by programmer" or something like that.

00:00:16   Because, you know, as we all know with our apps, we frequently need some kind of icon to show something,

00:00:25   or to represent something, or the icon for our app even.

00:00:28   And so icons have always been an area where, you know, as a programmer first,

00:00:34   and a very, very, very distant wannabe designer very, very, very far second,

00:00:39   I have always struggled with graphic design in many ways.

00:00:44   I'm not a natural graphic designer.

00:00:47   I have no training in that area.

00:00:50   But making apps, you frequently need some kind of graphic design.

00:00:53   And in particular, icons have always been an area where I've been,

00:00:59   I've never been comfortable designing my own, like, app icon for Springboard.

00:01:04   But in app icons, I have gone through a lot of different phases, levels of capability,

00:01:13   styles of how I design in app icons, or what I even use for them.

00:01:18   And I think it's interesting to talk about this because over time,

00:01:23   we've gotten more and more options for, like, stock design resources.

00:01:27   You know, back in the early days, we had, like, the UI bar button system items,

00:01:33   and whatever, you know, 20, whatever it was, 12, like, it wasn't even that many,

00:01:37   whatever it was that we could choose, we could have, well, you could have, like,

00:01:40   the system share icon or the system refresh.

00:01:42   A few others, you know, cancel maybe.

00:01:44   But actually, that cancel was never one.

00:01:46   But, you know, you had, like, the system buttons that were built in,

00:01:49   and that was about it for stock design that the platform would provide you.

00:01:54   And so we had to go off on our own.

00:01:57   And back then, mostly, you know, everything was bitmap icons back then,

00:02:01   and mostly what you would do is hire a designer or maybe buy an icon set from somebody

00:02:06   and hope that would work for you.

00:02:09   And the world has moved in many different directions since then,

00:02:14   and now we have way more options.

00:02:17   We talked, back when we first covered this topic, we talked about how

00:02:22   I've been doing a lot of programmatic icon drawing.

00:02:25   I've designed a lot of my icons using the app called Paint Code for the Mac,

00:02:30   which is basically a programmer's vector drawing app that outputs, among other formats,

00:02:34   it can output source code that can draw your stuff using the Quartz APIs.

00:02:38   And I have a lot of success with that.

00:02:43   But now, since then, we've had the rise of a lot more stock design stuff built into the OS,

00:02:51   in the forms of system colors and SF symbols.

00:02:57   And I want to talk about that this week, because, you know, this...

00:03:02   I'm kind of in the middle of a pretty significant overcast reskinning and redesign,

00:03:08   and I've decided to lean heavily into SF symbols and some of the system colors.

00:03:14   And what I've found, I think, might be useful to people.

00:03:20   And I'm leaning more towards it as time goes on,

00:03:23   but I'm still kind of holding on to a lot of my dynamic paint code icons as well.

00:03:27   So I wanted to cover that today.

00:03:29   So, Dave, I'm curious, what has your journey been like in this area?

00:03:34   Yeah, I mean, I feel like any iOS developer who's been around a long time

00:03:38   has gone through all these different phases for icons.

00:03:42   And I will say, at first, it is amazing how universal icons are in app design.

00:03:49   That it's like fundamentally... I don't think I've ever shipped an app that didn't include this kind of icon inside of it.

00:03:55   And I think it's just fundamental to the way in which we communicate functionality to our users.

00:04:00   And I guess the alternative would have used all text-based buttons and all text-based descriptions,

00:04:06   but that's problematic in a variety of ways in terms of localization,

00:04:11   in terms of ease of scanning and understanding,

00:04:14   in terms of having consistency between other apps and between users' expectations for what a particular thing does.

00:04:20   And so icons is sort of the natural and logical end point that we've sort of settled on as a community

00:04:26   and as a platform around how to communicate that this thing is going to do something,

00:04:31   or identifying what is this feature, what's going to happen when you push on it.

00:04:37   And some of those, there are a few that Apple in the old days would include inside of iOS,

00:04:43   and those were useful to some degree, but I always found what was complicated there

00:04:47   was they gave you just enough if you did almost nothing.

00:04:51   But as soon as you needed something different, then you're in this weird place of

00:04:54   having some that are system and some that aren't leads to a lot of issues with consistency and graphic appearance.

00:04:59   And so inevitably what happened is I then went on, I guess, the icon set buying spree

00:05:07   that I feel like any early app developers probably went on

00:05:14   where everybody kept coming out with these icon packs that you could buy and you could use in your app.

00:05:18   And there was Symbolicons was one I used for a long time.

00:05:21   That's a good one.

00:05:26   It's like Parakeet primaries, which is like Louis Mantilla.

00:05:27   He did an icon set that I used for a while.

00:05:31   And there was, was it Glyphish?

00:05:35   There were so many.

00:05:37   Somewhere I have a folder that's just full of these icons,

00:05:40   in a folder on my computer.

00:05:44   And they sort of help, but they also ran into all kinds of other problems

00:05:46   where I had icon sets and then Apple added 2x displays.

00:05:51   And now I need to either rebuy or hope that the designer is going to update those icon sets

00:05:56   to have 2x icons.

00:06:01   Then there was 3x, which was the same problem again.

00:06:03   Then some icon designers started to go down the road of doing,

00:06:07   giving you SVG or something that's more flexible, which sort of works,

00:06:10   but is also complicated in other ways because if you,

00:06:13   the nature of rendering something is ideally you don't want weird image artifacts

00:06:18   or problems if you are rendering it slightly off size.

00:06:24   And so you end up with these kind of,

00:06:28   there's a lot of complexity in things that I would always run into.

00:06:29   And if you were using statically rendered icon sets,

00:06:32   then you always have, you're like,

00:06:35   "Well, it's limited to whatever size it came in to some degree."

00:06:37   Or you're resizing it yourself.

00:06:39   And it was always a bit complicated.

00:06:38   And then I went very briefly down the road you're talking about with PaintCode,

00:06:43   where I think I've made two or three icons that way.

00:06:47   And for me, it was always the last resort.

00:06:50   There's something in it in an icon that I need or I need to change.

00:06:53   It's just something that I can't quite manage, and so I would do it in PaintCode.

00:06:57   But I, just from a graphic and design perspective, really struggle there.

00:07:02   And so it was never something that I went down very far.

00:07:05   And then Apple added SF Symbols.

00:07:10   I guess this was three releases ago?

00:07:13   I think it sounds about right.

00:07:15   And it's been really interesting to see this evolve,

00:07:16   both in terms of Apple has added a tremendous variety of icon sets to this.

00:07:21   I think there are still things that I run into where they don't have an option for,

00:07:26   but the number of those is getting smaller and smaller.

00:07:30   And that's always just one of these problems with all these icon sets.

00:07:33   If there's some very specific thing that you want,

00:07:38   and your icon set doesn't have it,

00:07:41   or if SF Symbols doesn't have it,

00:07:42   you very quickly run into this wall where it's like, "What do I do?"

00:07:44   But they've done a great job of expanding it out.

00:07:47   And the thing that I've been so impressed with SF Symbols

00:07:50   and why I now,

00:07:53   it's like sometimes I feel like I'm changing my design

00:07:54   to accommodate the SF Symbol offerings.

00:07:58   Where I will move things or change things or structure things

00:07:59   such that I can use SF Symbols

00:08:04   rather than having to come up with my own icon.

00:08:06   Because it just works so well in the system.

00:08:08   And especially with SwiftUI,

00:08:12   which is almost all of what I'm building with now.

00:08:13   If you use SF Symbols,

00:08:16   they fit in perfectly in terms of the line weights

00:08:17   and the aesthetics of them,

00:08:21   in terms of getting the baseline right.

00:08:23   If you have a button that has an image and some text,

00:08:24   it's always been a slightly complicated thing

00:08:24   to get the baseline of the text

00:08:29   and the placement of the icon to look good.

00:08:31   Apple just sort of has taken care of that.

00:08:35   It looks really good with obviously the SF fonts.

00:08:38   And so that part works.

00:08:42   And so now that's just sort of where I am.

00:08:44   And it's just been kind of amazing

00:08:46   to see this development to a place that,

00:08:47   I mean I feel like in some ways bad for the icon set designers

00:08:50   who previously would make some money

00:08:51   from selling icon sets to people like me.

00:08:56   But increasingly it's like Apple does a good enough job

00:08:58   that I don't even really, you know,

00:09:01   I'm not on the lookout for any more icon sets I don't think.

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00:11:18   Yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about,

00:11:24   as I'm also leaning more heavily into both the San Francisco font,

00:11:26   and the font family, and SF Symbols,

00:11:32   I've always, ever since Visual Basic,

00:11:35   my very first GUI programming tool,

00:11:39   back forever ago when I was a teenager,

00:11:42   I started with Visual Basic 1.0.

00:11:44   And back for that, it always came with a set of Microsoft built-in icons.

00:11:47   And there was always, not that many,

00:11:53   but I too would always find myself adjusting my design

00:11:53   to try to use as many of the stock icons as possible.

00:11:59   Because if you think my design skills are bad now,

00:12:03   you should have seen me when I was a teenager.

00:12:05   But, you know, and I find myself,

00:12:08   you mentioned that you're doing that with SF Symbols,

00:12:11   where you'll actually bend your design

00:12:13   to accommodate what they offer.

00:12:15   And I'm finding myself doing that exact same thing now.

00:12:17   Because as I lean more heavily into SF Symbols,

00:12:18   I still have some custom icons lingering around in the redesign,

00:12:24   but that's mostly because I need some kind of dynamic functionality.

00:12:30   Like, the overcast sleep timer icon on the Now Playing screen,

00:12:33   first of all, it actually shows the correct time,

00:12:37   because it's a clock,

00:12:39   and I'm not going to have a clock in my app that shows the wrong time.

00:12:40   So it always shows the right time,

00:12:43   and when you have a sleep timer set,

00:12:45   it turns the hands into a little bit of a pie graph

00:12:44   to show you what time the timer will end.

00:12:50   And that kind of dynamic functionality is not yet possible with SF Symbols.

00:12:52   And honestly, that's unfortunate.

00:12:57   I wish there was a way to have parameterized SF Symbols,

00:12:59   where some input parameter could either toggle certain shapes on and off within the icon,

00:13:04   or could be applied as a rotation or a scaling metric.

00:13:10   That obviously broadens the scope of them tremendously,

00:13:16   but they already support so many cool things through the symbol configuration API.

00:13:19   Things like different palette controls and palette colors and weights and everything.

00:13:23   So the precedent and the beginnings of API support are there for dynamic icons, basically.

00:13:28   They would just have to add certain arbitrary parameters that you could input,

00:13:36   and then have the symbols be able to interpret those in certain ways, optionally.

00:13:37   And I would love to see that.

00:13:43   But other than that, other than dynamic needs,

00:13:44   what I'm seeing really is that almost every icon in Overcast can be replaced with an SF Symbols icon,

00:13:47   and in most cases it ends up looking better.

00:13:55   Because while my design skills have gotten significantly better since 2014 when I started this app,

00:13:58   they're still not as good as Apple's most of the time.

00:14:02   And so, you know, Apple has, in many ways,

00:14:08   they're a very big company now,

00:14:12   and in many ways that's inconvenient for developers in the sense that we now,

00:14:14   it's such a broad company and the platform is so broad that it's hard for us to keep up in certain ways.

00:14:18   But because the company is so massive and sprawling and huge now,

00:14:24   and they have so many things going,

00:14:28   that also means that we get occasional things like this that just make our jobs so much easier.

00:14:29   A smaller Apple that was making iOS 2.0 back 12 years ago,

00:14:35   whenever that was, would never have done something like SF Symbols.

00:14:39   But now they have teams of people who are dedicated to things like this,

00:14:43   to making hundreds of new icons every year,

00:14:49   and updating the old ones to get new capabilities,

00:14:53   or tweaking the styles slightly to keep up with the modern UI fashion and stuff,

00:14:55   and adding new capabilities like the palette colors and things like that.

00:15:01   And you go into the fonts as well, and the fonts get new capabilities,

00:15:05   and some of them integrate with SF Symbols,

00:15:08   or they work together in harmonious ways.

00:15:10   And so to have this giant resource available to us,

00:15:14   I think it would be, it's almost stupid not to use it.

00:15:18   I think it's really nice that, obviously,

00:15:20   as I mentioned, there's still room for custom icons,

00:15:26   and as I said, I'm still using some custom icons myself in my new design,

00:15:29   but way fewer than before.

00:15:33   And what this results in is, first of all, a smaller app, which is great.

00:15:36   In the same way that less code, it tends to be better code,

00:15:41   it's always nice when you don't have to write something yourself,

00:15:46   when you can just use a system API to do something.

00:15:46   That also applies to design resources.

00:15:52   It's really nice to have fewer design resources being on your plate,

00:15:54   not only as an indie developer, but as any developer.

00:16:00   Now, the good thing is, this is an area where we can have an advantage as indies,

00:16:02   because the big companies will never use SF Symbols.

00:16:07   They have their own internal design teams,

00:16:11   and they want everything to look the same across all platforms,

00:16:13   and their own branding, and blah, blah, blah.

00:16:11   So they're never going to do this.

00:16:17   We can take advantage of this as indies,

00:16:19   because we don't care about all that stuff,

00:16:21   or we are more flexible on some of those areas than they are,

00:16:23   or we have a smaller problem set.

00:16:26   If our app doesn't look the same between iOS and Android,

00:16:28   well, most of us don't have iOS and Android apps, so that's fine.

00:16:32   So this is an area where indies can really take advantage of the fact that we are indie,

00:16:38   and use the system stuff, and there's massive amounts of effort and updating over time.

00:16:44   You mentioned when the screen sizes change, or when retina happen.

00:16:51   Whenever anything on the platform changes like that,

00:16:54   Apple will make sure that their design resources are updated,

00:16:56   and so we don't have to do that.

00:17:02   And so our apps get smaller, we have fewer design resources to maintain at all,

00:17:04   fewer things to have to draw or get drawn in the first place,

00:17:10   and so it's just a huge savings for us all around.

00:17:14   Not to mention the fact that then code gets simpler.

00:17:17   You can just call this stock "System Named API",

00:17:20   you mentioned SwiftUI, it's easier there, which is true.

00:17:23   So many things become easier when we can rely on the built-in stuff,

00:17:26   and the built-in stuff has just gotten so much more broad in recent years,

00:17:29   ever since they introduced SF Symbols and system colors and stuff like that.

00:17:35   So this is just a fantastic way for indies to have really nice, professional-looking apps,

00:17:39   without almost any effort at all.

00:17:46   And that's just fantastic.

00:17:50   And if there was any concern, one concern I would have would be,

00:17:51   as you're using these, is like, "Am I going to make my app just look like every other app?"

00:17:55   And the good thing is, as I mentioned a minute ago,

00:18:01   because almost no apps will even use SF Symbols at all,

00:18:03   let alone use them extensively,

00:18:08   that's not really going to be a problem in practice as far as I can guess.

00:18:11   It certainly isn't today.

00:18:15   And any cross-platform app from a big company, they're not going to use any of them.

00:18:17   Many of the indie apps on the App Store are designed by people who have design opinions

00:18:21   or design teams, and so they're not going to use them.

00:18:27   Many of the smaller apps or apps that don't have dedicated design teams

00:18:30   are already made and already designed for previous versions of iOS

00:18:34   and will never be updated to the new style,

00:18:38   or will not be updated for a very long time.

00:18:40   So when Overcast comes out and it shows all these icons,

00:18:42   I bet a lot of people are not going to know these are SF Symbols.

00:18:46   You might recognize a couple of them here and there from Apple's built-in apps,

00:18:48   but SF Symbols has over a thousand icons, I think.

00:18:54   It has a lot of icons, and most people are not seeing them on a regular basis.

00:18:57   And even if they did, is that so bad?

00:19:03   Like if your meatball icon, I just learned this name,

00:19:06   I'm so happy that this is the name of the three dots,

00:19:08   like the ellipsis to show a more icon,

00:19:11   it's apparently called a meatball.

00:19:13   That makes me so happy.

00:19:12   But if your meatball icon or your share icon looks like the system ones, that's fine.

00:19:18   That's good. People recognize them.

00:19:24   It shows that your app fits into the platform. It looks native.

00:19:26   Those are all good qualities.

00:19:29   So all around, I just see this as a win.

00:19:31   And I think too, it's a good thing that it fits in.

00:19:36   Regardless of whether or not anyone else will use it,

00:19:42   maybe this isn't a point of differentiation between your app and between other apps.

00:19:45   But I'm not sure if that's a particularly helpful differentiation,

00:19:50   if that's something that's actually doing you any favors or is important.

00:19:52   The more I use SF Symbols, the more I understand how difficult doing icons inside applications well is.

00:20:03   And getting a sense of how many choices and differentiations and points of design

00:20:08   that if you actually are going to do this, you'd have to do to do it well.

00:20:15   And it's way better for your app to look good and sharp and clean

00:20:19   than it is to be different for not looking clean, sharp and clean.

00:20:23   And I think the biggest way of proving this is

00:20:28   if you've ever watched the W2C session

00:20:29   where they talk about how to make your own custom SF Symbols.

00:20:34   Oh yeah, I tried that for about one hour.

00:20:38   And it's like, Apple, fair enough, they've built the infrastructure that there is a way to do this.

00:20:43   And I believe this last year it got a little bit better.

00:20:47   They improved the tooling for it slightly.

00:20:50   But it was one of these things where I'm like, "Okay."

00:20:52   The first step, it's like, "Okay, open this template. All right. Now take your icon, put it in here."

00:20:54   And it's like, "Now tweak your icon 36 times to make it so that it looks good in this context, in this context,

00:20:59   if it's expanded out here, if they're using the accessibility type sizes

00:21:05   where it gets really small or really big, if they want bold or unbold text for accessibility reasons."

00:21:11   And it very quickly was like, "Oh, right."

00:21:17   So someone at Apple has, I feel for that person slightly,

00:21:20   but someone at Apple has gone through for all of these hundreds of symbols,

00:21:25   and they've made sure that it looks good and is appropriate in all of those contexts.

00:21:30   That if a user has dynamic text turned way up and bold text turned on,

00:21:35   the symbol is going to look good and appropriate next to the text that it is next to.

00:21:41   And I didn't have to do anything to do that.

00:21:45   And I very quickly, as soon as I opened up that template and watched the W3C video,

00:21:47   I was like, "Nope, I'm just going to let someone else worry about this,

00:21:52   because there is no way that I have the time, energy, effort, ability, skill,

00:21:55   whatever attributes it would take to actually do that to make my app icons rise to that level."

00:21:59   And so whether or not anyone else is using it,

00:22:07   in some ways it would be a wonderful world if lots of people are using them,

00:22:09   and it's just like, it's not a point of differentiation, so fair enough.

00:22:12   You have to differentiate your app in other ways.

00:22:13   But seeing how much effort and care goes into these very quickly makes me think,

00:22:18   "I don't want to get anywhere near trying to do this myself,

00:22:23   because there's no way that I'm going to end up with a result.

00:22:26   I'm not willing to put in the effort it would take to get to the results that they've already gotten to."

00:22:29   And I hope there are a few areas in SF Symbols that I wish they would expand.

00:22:34   For one, for me, it's like workout modes.

00:22:38   It's something that there isn't SF Symbols for all the different kind of,

00:22:40   if you imagine all the workout types you could have with running, walking, biking, etc.

00:22:45   There's just not a good set of them.

00:22:50   But other than that, that's the only area that I've ever run into where I'm like,

00:22:52   "I wish they'd expanded it."

00:22:54   But it's like, "Otherwise, just use it and don't worry about it."

00:22:55   And understand that you're getting not just the icon as part of starting to use it,

00:23:00   but you're getting all of the other work and the dynamism that is inside of these icons,

00:23:07   which is essentially for free by going down this road yourself.

00:23:12   Yeah, it's just such a great feeling to know that you can just, with one line of code,

00:23:16   you can have this incredible resource available in your app, and it makes your app look good.

00:23:25   And I like what you said about how you shouldn't necessarily rely on custom icon work as a point of differentiation.

00:23:33   I think this, as the system is maturing over time, as things are getting more broad,

00:23:38   we have not necessarily cross-platform in the sense of iOS and Android,

00:23:46   but we have cross-platform in the sense of iPhone, iPad, Mac, watch.

00:23:50   As everything's getting more broad, I think the value of using stock design resources is going up over time.

00:23:55   Because this is one of the reasons why also in my redesign I have dropped the custom font.

00:24:02   I'm only supporting San Francisco, and I'm designing the whole app around San Francisco now.

00:24:07   And it's not because the custom font was bad, I love the custom font,

00:24:10   but if you look at, mature platforms over time tend to go towards the system font being universal.

00:24:19   When PC and Mac stuff was really young, a lot of stuff had custom fonts,

00:24:24   and as the systems matured now, it would be weird if you opened up a Mac app,

00:24:30   and it was just a pretty normal type of app, a common app type,

00:24:34   and it used a different font in the system. That's not a common thing anymore.

00:24:39   And I think iOS is moving in that direction as well.

00:24:43   I think you have to have a really good rationale for not using the system font,

00:24:47   and if you don't, you probably should use system font.

00:24:51   And there are certain exceptions, like games, obviously, that's an immersive experience,

00:24:56   that's a different thing, that always has been a different thing.

00:24:58   But for most apps, you should be using the system font,

00:25:01   and making your own font from scratch is such a daunting task that most developers shouldn't do that either.

00:25:09   Occasionally a really big company might make their own entirely custom font,

00:25:13   but that's not a common thing either.

00:25:15   I think icons kind of fall between those two.

00:25:17   Most people, it's easier obviously to make an icon than it is to make an entire custom font,

00:25:22   since the font is basically hundreds of custom icons.

00:25:26   But I think most apps should probably use the system icons most or all of the time,

00:25:34   unless there is some area where they don't cover.

00:25:37   And over time, hopefully those areas will shrink.

00:25:41   Because if you look at SF Symbols over time, every new release of iOS,

00:25:46   Apple adds more SF Symbols, and that's probably going to continue for some time.

00:25:50   I mean, it's probably going to slow down at some point, because all the low-hanging fruit will be gone.

00:25:55   But they keep adding more and more.

00:25:57   And as I mentioned, take advantage of Apple's ridiculous scale,

00:26:01   and let them do all that work, and you use it in your app.

00:26:04   But over time, I think there's going to be less and less reason for most apps to deviate from the stock designs,

00:26:11   both controls and fonts and icons.

00:26:16   So if you jump on board now, I think you'll be ahead of the curve,

00:26:19   and I think you'll be saving yourself a whole lot of time.

00:26:21   And your app will look more modern and better.

00:26:24   Yeah, and I think too, don't underestimate the value of helping your customer, your user,

00:26:32   know what something is going to do by being consistent with the system.

00:26:37   One of the advantages of SF Symbols is that it isn't a point of differentiation.

00:26:42   In some ways, that is a feature, not a bug.

00:26:44   It is good that if they see a button that has a particular symbol,

00:26:49   and you're using it in the way in which that symbol was intended to be used,

00:26:54   which you should be, like don't be using symbols in confusing ways,

00:26:57   but if you're using it as like, this is for favoriting something,

00:27:00   this is for sharing something, this is for rotating something.

00:27:05   If you're using those symbols in a way that they're intended to be used,

00:27:10   then you're getting this built-in help, like onboarding training with your customers,

00:27:16   that you didn't have to do any work there.

00:27:19   You didn't have to work hard to expect that they're going to know what to do with that symbol,

00:27:24   because if it's the same symbol that they see in Apple's, say like the crop or rotate tool,

00:27:31   it's like if they've seen it in the Photos app and they know what it did there,

00:27:34   and they see it in your app and it does the same thing, they didn't have to learn anything.

00:27:38   They don't have to think, oh, in the system one it looks this way, but in your app,

00:27:42   oh, when I want to use crop, I'm using this other tool or this other concept or this other glyph.

00:27:47   It becomes very, your customers can develop a vocabulary for what the icons on a platform do,

00:27:56   and then you can just take advantage of that in your own app.

00:27:59   And I think that's something that I've undervalued when I was first going down this road

00:28:03   of standardizing on SF symbols in my apps, is the advantage that that is conferring

00:28:08   rather than the sort of detraction.

00:28:10   The advantage that I can use something that is very familiar is transferable between my apps,

00:28:15   and I'm gaining this sort of level of comfort for my customers that I didn't have to really even do much work for.

00:28:22   Exactly, and as iOS's icons and system designs get richer,

00:28:28   that raises the bar for what you have to do if you want to use custom stuff.

00:28:33   Like the SF symbols have this concept of hierarchical rendering,

00:28:36   which is basically different levels of transparency based on a certain root color.

00:28:40   So if that becomes the norm, that people get accustomed to seeing hierarchical icons across the system,

00:28:46   that means if you're going to replace them with your own custom icons,

00:28:49   people are going to expect your icons to have that same look, and that's even more work for you.

00:28:53   So I think as things get more mature, again, the bar is being raised for having custom stuff,

00:29:00   and so that increases the value of indies like us using system stuff.

00:29:04   Yeah, I think you said it well when you said it,

00:29:09   it's like you'd just be foolish not to. And I think we've both sort of settled on this,

00:29:13   and I think that's for good reasons, that this is a good thing.

00:29:16   I think I've been using it, especially in Widgetsmith, extensively,

00:29:20   and it's used widely and with lots of customers, and it works really well,

00:29:24   and I would encourage anyone who's been reluctant or hesitant to adopt it,

00:29:29   try it out and see if it can work for you.

00:29:32   Thanks for listening, everybody, and we'll talk to you in two weeks.

00:29:35   Bye.

00:29:37   Stop dot circle.