Under the Radar

228: Ask For Money


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development. I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05   And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10   So for today, I thought I wanted to talk about something that's kind of been rattling around

00:00:14   in my head for the last couple months. And at a high level, it's along the lines of,

00:00:20   am I proud of what I'm selling in my apps? And if not, why? And if I am, then do I, you

00:00:29   know, do I communicate that in a way that makes sense to my users and to my customers?

00:00:35   And specifically, this was coming, sort of thinking through some situations in Pedometer

00:00:40   plus plus and in Widgetsmith, where I think I was going through the, like my purchase

00:00:45   screens and the way that I was trying to sell things in the app, and was kind of realizing

00:00:50   that a lot of the way that I had been thinking about it and the way that I had been structuring

00:00:55   my, you know, purchase screens and things in many ways was coming from a position that,

00:01:03   if I'm honest, it was sort of almost like I was like ashamed or feeling like had in

00:01:07   hand like, please, sir, will you give me some money to my customers and that it wasn't coming

00:01:13   from this place that I felt confident and proud of what it was that I was selling, that

00:01:19   it wasn't coming from this place. If it's like I have this amazing, awesome thing that

00:01:22   I think you would like, I think it is worth the money that I'm charging for it. And here

00:01:27   it is, which probably the better place to be. Instead, it was much more of like, I'm

00:01:31   like hiding my purchase screen in like hard to find places and putting it kind of like,

00:01:38   it's like, well, you know, maybe people who've been using the app for a really long time

00:01:41   are going to discover this, and then they'll find it and then they'll be like happy to

00:01:45   give me money. And it's like, why am I like, you know, scrolling this away somewhere? This

00:01:49   should be clear and obvious and straightforward. And the first place that this happened, I

00:01:55   think was something that is a much more succinct version is in pedometer++ for years and years,

00:02:01   you've been able to do an in app purchase that sort of it's supports the development

00:02:08   that used to be a tip jar entirely. And then it became something that was a bit, you know,

00:02:14   I added ads to the app. And so if you put any money in the tip jar, or if you remove

00:02:18   ads, you can pay for this. And this has always been in the bottom section of the settings

00:02:24   screen. So in order to find it, you would have to open the app, be using it, click on

00:02:31   this gear icon in the top left corner, and then scroll all the way to the bottom of that

00:02:34   list. And it's probably maybe a two or three screen fulls of scroll. And that's the way

00:02:41   it's all had been had been that way for years. And when I was starting to have these kind

00:02:46   of thoughts and thinking about how I'm positioning my my net purchases, I was like, I imagine

00:02:51   many people who might want to remove the ads from the application have no idea that they

00:02:56   can. I have no idea that this is something that's possible, because it's like I'm almost

00:03:00   like hiding this feature, this ability, this offering away from them. And so two versions

00:03:06   ago, I added just a little button here on the top right of the ad that says remove ads.

00:03:12   And if you tap on that, it potentially prompts you for the prompts you for the purchase,

00:03:17   you can hit, you know, yes, and you can remove the ads that way. And I wasn't sure what the

00:03:23   response to this would be. And I actually, it's always one of those funny things where

00:03:26   you can't even just tell my posture and how nervous I was about doing this. I even added

00:03:30   like a server side kill switch for this so that if I needed to remove the remove ads

00:03:34   button because I was getting people up in the arms, or if it was like a big problem,

00:03:38   it would be like I would be able to like instantaneously just like turn this off. Turns out, I was

00:03:42   like, "Oh, yeah, that's what I'm talking about." People love it. It's great. The revenue

00:03:46   from like in-app purchase inside of pedometer is up by something like two or three times.

00:03:53   And I've had no negative, only positive responses to this that like, "Great, I can remove the

00:03:58   ads." And I was like, "Right, because like, this is a thing that people like, and that

00:04:04   I should be proud to sell and I should let people know that they can buy this if they

00:04:08   want." And it wasn't even just like, at first I was like, "Oh, maybe it'll just be like

00:04:11   for the first couple of weeks." It's like, "Nope, it's been like two months now and it's

00:04:14   continued to be popular, have people download it or like, you know, buy it regularly." And

00:04:20   I just like wish I'd been done this all along. I wish I'd been like realized that like, "No,

00:04:24   like I don't need to be ashamed of this. Like, it's a feature. I think it's worth like the

00:04:29   exchange that you get to, you know, I forgo the revenue from ads and you get the benefit

00:04:33   of not having ads in the app. Everyone wins." But that's not where I was coming from when

00:04:37   I made this, you know, implemented this feature years ago. So I would encourage everyone else

00:04:42   to be proud of what you're doing.

00:04:44   That's, first of all, congratulations on the raise that you just gave yourself. Thank you.

00:04:51   And I would also suggest, since you tiptoed right up to this but didn't go there, I would

00:04:56   suggest developers out there, if you ever make a change to your app that suddenly makes

00:05:00   you more money, never do the math and try to figure out what you have missed in the

00:05:05   meantime from not having done that earlier, because that's just depressing. But congratulations

00:05:10   nonetheless. Yeah, I think it's interesting that, you know, I think nerds in general,

00:05:17   certainly including me, many of us grew up or still are quite shy about talking about

00:05:25   money, asking for money, asking people to pay us at all, let alone what we were worth.

00:05:31   And there's a whole bunch of stuff to unpack on that. Can't all fit in one episode, but

00:05:36   there's obviously areas like salary negotiations where that can be fairly important. But going

00:05:42   back to the context of apps, it's hard for a lot of us to put ourselves out there, because

00:05:47   that's what you're really doing. You're putting yourself out there. You're saying, "Look,

00:05:50   here's my app. I can't just shyly scoot it over in front of you and just run away and

00:05:55   have you just use it if you want to. I'm actually asking for money." And that's a very, very

00:06:00   different, it's a much more bold, risky move than just letting your app sit and hoping

00:06:06   people notice and find ways to give you money. Because obviously some people will, as you

00:06:12   know, many people have, but not as many as if you just ask them for money or if you put

00:06:17   up some kind of barrier or wall. And if you look around the app store, the way most apps

00:06:23   are monetized is by basically beating people over the head with ads and purchase opportunities

00:06:30   until they succumb. It's the opposite of this shy nerd approach that we are so familiar

00:06:36   with because we are shy nerds. It's so much more of that blatant consumerism, blatant

00:06:44   advertising, blatant in-app purchase walls that you see in most apps and especially in

00:06:49   games and especially things targeted at kids. And so it's easy to look at that and be

00:06:56   turned off by that world, but it's also very easy to be a little too far into our comfortable,

00:07:03   no risk-taking, never asking for money world where we don't make enough money. I've

00:07:09   been there. Many of Overcast's initial business models kind of relied on that and

00:07:14   didn't work very well. Even things I do in Overcast now, I never use the ratings prompt,

00:07:21   the system ratings prompt, unless you tap a settings cell in the settings that says

00:07:25   leave a review or whatever, rate this app whatever it says. And I say right under it,

00:07:29   I'll never interrupt you for ratings. You know what the result of that is?

00:07:32   Not a lot of ratings. Yeah. I have way fewer ratings than any of

00:07:36   my competitors. And even apps that I know I have way more users than, but I have orders

00:07:43   of magnitude fewer ratings because I'm not using that prompt. And honestly, I don't

00:07:48   want to use that prompt, but maybe I should be using it more. I don't know. There's

00:07:54   things like that, all those apps that pop up the things saying like, "Are you happy

00:07:58   with our app?" And if you say yes, it shows the ratings dialogue. And if you say no, it's

00:08:02   like, "What are you? Contact customer service." I don't do any of that crap, but it does

00:08:07   work. And so we have to kind of decide when things are beyond our comfort zone for either

00:08:16   putting ourselves out there or for what we perceive as quality or annoyance metrics,

00:08:21   we have to set a threshold of like, "Well, what are we comfortable with doing when it

00:08:25   has a big enough payoff for the app, and what are we not?" And those thresholds can change

00:08:29   over time because conditions change over time and you change over time. And the market and

00:08:33   people's expectations all change over time. I think if I hadn't been shipping an app

00:08:39   for seven years that says I'll never interrupt you for ratings, I would probably start interrupting

00:08:43   people for ratings because it makes such a big difference now in the numbers of ratings

00:08:48   you get and no one seems to mind anymore. Like seven years ago, that was a big problem.

00:08:54   People were getting annoyed like crazy. Today, no one cares. Another thing that I would almost

00:09:00   certainly do these days is push notifications for promotional purposes, which sucks. And

00:09:06   I hate that I have just admitted that, but I've been tempted to do that, especially

00:09:11   for things like new user retention because one problem we all have is a certain number

00:09:17   of people install the app. Some of them start an account, whatever, log in, and then they

00:09:22   might forget about it and never use it again. I should probably do what most apps do, which

00:09:28   is if once you've installed it, maybe like the next day, send a push notification that

00:09:34   says, "Hey, come back to Overcast. We have all these new episodes," or whatever.

00:09:37   And I hate that idea logically in my head, but I hate it a little bit less over time

00:09:43   as time goes on as I start realizing like, "You know what? I'm losing a lot of people

00:09:46   this way and every other app does this and it's fine." So there's areas like that

00:09:51   where I feel like the line of what we're comfortable with is a little blurry and can

00:09:58   shift over time. But then there's areas like remove ads. Now, there was a time when

00:10:05   having ads in apps was considered kind of, is it "gosh"? Is that how you pronounce

00:10:11   that word?

00:10:12   Yeah, I think it's "gosh."

00:10:13   Yeah. It was considered kind of low-taste to have ads in apps back a long time ago.

00:10:19   Now, it's incredibly commonplace. Both of us make apps with ads in them. That's often

00:10:25   the primary or only business model and no one cares. And so to have an ad that shows

00:10:33   on the screen and then near it or somehow easily visible a remove ads feature that you

00:10:40   just pay a purchase and the ads are gone, that's so incredibly common these days.

00:10:46   As a customer of apps, I know that I appreciate when there's a remove ads button because

00:10:51   any app I download, if there's an ad on the screen and there's a remove ads button

00:10:54   next to it, as long as it's not some kind of ridiculous subscription price, I'll buy

00:10:58   it every time. If it's like three bucks, remove the ads, sure, absolutely, done. I

00:11:02   won't even think about it. Absolutely, yes, I want these ads gone. And to many people,

00:11:07   they don't care and then you can make ad money from those people forever.

00:11:10   And so I feel like that is one of those areas where we have to kind of just get over our

00:11:16   shyness because it's so beneficial to monetize apps with ads and to have a remove ads option

00:11:24   for people who want that. That's so beneficial for all parties involved. And obviously there's

00:11:30   some details about whether the ads are creepy or whatever, but that's kind of a separate

00:11:33   discussion. The concept of ads is fine and there are so many problems solved by that

00:11:39   kind of arrangement and so many people who benefit from that kind of arrangement in general,

00:11:43   that I don't think we need to feel shy about that anymore.

00:11:47   Yeah. No. And I think what's interesting is something you said that really stuck with

00:11:51   me too, is the sense of what's difficult sometimes is that it is worse that like in

00:11:59   my case, the old version where it's like the remove ads button was buried deep in settings.

00:12:06   It was worse that it sort of worked, that there was some response from that. And when

00:12:11   I think of you with your ratings prompt system, where like you do get some ratings and it's

00:12:16   not like you have the empty star thing in the app store because no one's ever rated

00:12:21   it. It's like you have some. And it's easy, I think sometimes, and this is something I've

00:12:26   seen myself, to whatever that initial response is, whatever the initial kind of like income

00:12:34   I get or number of ratings or whatever that might be, I very quickly will kind of almost

00:12:40   normalize that as in my head that's as good as it could ever be. Like that becomes like,

00:12:47   well, this is what the app can make. This is what the app's like. It becomes the ceiling

00:12:53   rather than the floor. And I think in some ways, it's like if I had no response, if I

00:13:02   had that button like buried so far down in settings, or was so hard to get to, or I was

00:13:07   so shy about asking for money, that I never got anything, well, I would change it, right?

00:13:12   Like I would, it would be kind of foolish for me not to, for me, I would need to do

00:13:18   something. But because it does something, that was almost more of a trap that I found

00:13:23   myself walking into, because it gave me this ability to just sort of in some ways that

00:13:27   my brain anchored on that, that's what this app can make, that's what it will always do.

00:13:34   And I just sort of like moved on and stopped asking this question, rather than it being

00:13:38   something where I, whatever I get initially is like, okay, that's what it can do. Clearly,

00:13:45   and like what I should have thought with that is it's like, huh, people like this, some

00:13:49   people in the world are taking money out of their bank account and putting it in mine

00:13:54   in order to accomplish this. It's clearly something that some people like. I should

00:13:59   make sure that all the people who might want to give me the money in this way are aware

00:14:04   that this is an opportunity for them to give me money in this way, for us to have this

00:14:07   value exchange that I give them, I give them a feature or in this case, remove something

00:14:12   from the app, and they give me money. And like, no one in that transaction is like coming

00:14:17   out the worst for it. We're both getting something valuable. And so I should seek to make sure

00:14:23   that everybody who might want to do that has the opportunity to do that. And like you said,

00:14:29   I could certainly go down a road where it is too aggressive, where it is too problematic

00:14:35   that I get and I would likely at some point you would almost certainly hit a wall where

00:14:40   it starts to become problematic. And I'm sure those, you know, like the in-app purchase

00:14:45   casino style games are like geared and tuned finely such that they are like one iota on

00:14:53   the side of not quite too much, like just before you would hit diminishing returns or

00:14:57   too high of an uninstall rate. I mean, maybe they are. I'm just saying like, it's something

00:15:02   where like, there is a tuning that can happen there. But I suspect that tuning is not like,

00:15:13   I am so far from that, like where I am and where my instinct is, is so far removed from

00:15:20   that. I have a lot of space to play with a lot of opportunity to give people opportunities

00:15:26   to, you know, to buy the things that hopefully I'm proud to sell.

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00:17:28   to things for keeping me organized and for sponsoring our show. So I think to the next

00:17:33   sort of logical place to go with this kind of thinking, and this is something that gets

00:17:37   into something I've been changing and doing in widgetsmith a bit more is, and sometimes

00:17:42   I feel it's weird, it's like slightly embarrassed that all these there's all these industry

00:17:46   terms or things that people do that I just don't like aren't aren't things that I have

00:17:54   embraced that but exist and they exist for a reason. I or so it makes me sort of think

00:17:59   about experimentation. And obviously, like the fully grown up version of this is a B

00:18:06   testing where you make two versions of something and you see which one performs better, and

00:18:11   you keep the one that's sort of better and you have almost like this, like evolutionary

00:18:15   process where you take the better one and then you might refine it even more and you

00:18:19   sort of keep going until you find what is then theoretically the optimal version of

00:18:23   this. And I've never done a lot of A/B testing. It's not something I've particularly gone

00:18:29   down the road in my mind. I think it's coming from a place of it's like, well, I'm going

00:18:32   to design it the best way I can. And that's the best because it was the best. Like that's

00:18:38   what I said I was doing. I was making the best version. And so this is the best. But

00:18:42   it's also the reality of it's like, my definition of the best might not be the best by customers

00:18:47   or might be better in ways that I don't understand or that doesn't appeal to me. So it was one

00:18:52   of these things to like in widgetsmith that I've been doing recently is making little

00:18:55   changes to the purchase flow and the kind of upgrade subscription process. And right

00:19:02   now I'm not doing A/B testing where I'm doing two concurrent things where it's like, you

00:19:06   know, half of my people get one and half people get the other. I may go down that road eventually.

00:19:10   But right now what I'm just doing is it's like I'm making a change and then evaluating

00:19:15   the result and seeing if my conversion rate increases if I change my purchase screen in

00:19:21   a different way, if I'm more clear or emphasize one aspect of my subscription rather than

00:19:27   the other. And I think in the same way is sort of the being shy about asking for money.

00:19:31   It's being thoughtful about this process and understanding that I need what I need to do

00:19:37   is like, I need to communicate why someone should subscribe and be forthright and straightforward.

00:19:42   And it's like everyone's on the same page. You're getting these features for this money.

00:19:46   I don't need to be ashamed or think that's problematic. But if I don't communicate what

00:19:51   they're getting, if I'm not being clear about this value proposition, if I'm not showing

00:19:54   them how to do it, that they can subscribe in a clear and obvious way, like, then I'm

00:20:00   worse off. And the customers worse off. And it's like everyone's in a bad place if I don't

00:20:06   do that. And so taking a sort of iterative approach to this to enhance this over time

00:20:11   in the same way is like something that I should be doing to make sure that I'm taking full

00:20:15   advantage of the opportunities that my apps might contain.

00:20:18   Yeah, because you know, another angle to consider is that everyone thinks about money differently.

00:20:26   And so there's going to be people, you know, whatever, however willing you personally are,

00:20:32   as the developer of your app, like to spend money in or on other apps, there's going to

00:20:37   be people above and below you, there's going to be people who are way more willing to spend

00:20:41   money just to get rid of ads or just to get passivity barriers or just to achieve what

00:20:44   they want to achieve. Because look, they downloaded their app, your app for a reason. They got

00:20:48   your app to do something. And if it does that after you pay them or after they pay you some

00:20:54   money, many people will not care and say, Well, yes, of course, I expected to pay you

00:20:58   some kind of money somehow, because that's how most things work in apps. So great, okay.

00:21:02   There's also gonna be people out there who are way less willing to pay money than you

00:21:07   are. And you're going to hear from those people no matter what you do. And so as as you're

00:21:12   setting thresholds and making decisions, making pricing and you know, paywall kind of decisions

00:21:17   for your apps, it's really important to, to always keep in mind that no matter what you

00:21:24   do, you're going to hear from people who don't want to pay or who don't like your ads or

00:21:29   whatever, like and I, I get this all the time I get people, you know, maybe maybe a few

00:21:34   a week, I got a few like one star reviews a week, because I have ads in my app. And

00:21:38   like, I think I think my ads are pretty nice. But their ads for podcasts in a podcast app.

00:21:45   It's pretty hard to argue that they're like, they're pretty as ads go, they're pretty nice.

00:21:51   But I still get occasional one star reviews because the app contains ads. Not those people

00:21:54   ever tried to remove them. Or would it if even even if you know, they even if they wanted

00:22:00   to, I don't think they those people necessarily would. But you know, that's the thing. I also

00:22:05   have occasional one star reviews from people who complain that I have a subscription that

00:22:09   removes the ads, and that there's no like lifetime purchase option, one star never buying

00:22:14   it. I hate subscriptions like well, okay, that that's those people are always going

00:22:18   to exist. I also have lots of people who subscribe and just quietly enjoy the app and I never

00:22:25   hear from them. And that's what my business is based on. It's like all the people who

00:22:29   happily either buy the subscription, or who look at the ads, or in some cases both. Because

00:22:36   I give I give people the option. Hey, if you want to subscribe and also leave the ads on

00:22:39   you can. And I don't have numbers exactly on how many people do that. But it's not zero.

00:22:45   It's not a lot, but it's not zero. And so there's like, there's a whole range of people.

00:22:49   And again, no matter what policy or decisions you make, you're going to have people who

00:22:54   complain about it. So just the fact that people are complaining about it doesn't mean anything.

00:22:58   You know, if what matters is, are they are they mostly like, you know, a loud minority

00:23:04   of people using the app, as opposed to like the majority. And also, is your business doing

00:23:10   well regardless, you know, like it, if you're making enough money from from your business

00:23:14   that you don't need to care about all the people who say it's too expensive, or I don't

00:23:19   want any ads or subscriptions or anything or whatever, then you don't need to care about

00:23:22   those people. And so it's it really has to you have to be willing to experiment in this

00:23:27   area and be willing to push boundaries a little bit not only past some people's comfort who

00:23:32   were going to be, you know, yelling at you, but also past your own comfort in some in

00:23:35   some cases, you know, I never would have guessed seven years ago that I would have ads as my

00:23:41   primary income of my app. But here we are, and I do and it's not a shameful or like,

00:23:46   you know, failure kind of thing. I think it's great. And so, you know, be willing to experiment

00:23:52   in this direction also.

00:23:53   Jared Ranere: Yeah, I think too, there's an element as what you're saying to have understanding

00:23:59   that your customers are not you, and aren't the people you hang out with, or whatever

00:24:06   your online community is, or whatever that might be. And I think it is very easy to optimize

00:24:14   around yourself and the people you're around a lot. And then miss trip, miss or miss, miss

00:24:21   the fact that your audience for your application, I mean, it may be slightly different if you're

00:24:25   making a developer tool and being like of the times with developers would make sense.

00:24:31   But most apps, that's not their primary audience, most apps, it's something else. And I mean,

00:24:35   I've become been made very aware of this with Widgetsmith in a way that I wasn't necessarily

00:24:42   with even some of my other apps, but where Widgetsmith has a very wide audience, a very

00:24:47   diverse and sort of just from all ends of the spectrum and with different goals, like,

00:24:54   I kind of I understand the fitness, like with my earlier fitness apps, I understand that

00:25:00   world a bit more, because that's something that I personally am very interested in, you

00:25:04   know, I try, I do a lot of fitness stuff, and I'm aware of fitness things, I'm good

00:25:10   about that in industry, I am not particularly, you know, robust in the world of fashion and

00:25:19   aesthetic, like, that's not really me. But a lot of the people who use my app, that is

00:25:26   what they're interested in, that is what their focus is. And so I need to remind myself

00:25:31   regularly, that it's like, I'm making this app for someone who isn't me. And that's

00:25:36   great. That's wonderful. It gives me a wider audience. It's important. And I think in

00:25:39   this area, what you're saying is exactly right, where it's that sense of, don't

00:25:44   let a few voices that sort of in the worst of the voices that slightly confirm the way

00:25:52   you personally would be when you, you know, respond to an app that nicely say similar

00:25:57   to you, it's like, I don't like apps that have lots of ads. So if, you know, that's

00:26:01   just me personally, and that's fine. And I'll remove ads from apps. And that's the

00:26:05   way I roll. But if I get a customer who says something similar, like, oh, one star, I hate

00:26:09   your app, it doesn't have it has ads in it. It almost it's a trap for me to be you'd

00:26:15   have it just confirmed that like, oh, yeah, no ads are bad. I shouldn't do that. Versus

00:26:20   a cyclist, that's one person's opinion. And probably, you know, the probably a minority

00:26:25   opinion, it's probably not the majority opinion. And so being in some ways analytical

00:26:31   about this, I think is helpful that like, where I was saying, it's like being doing

00:26:35   a little bit of experimentation, doing things to actually gather data from the rest of your

00:26:41   audience, not the one or two people who said something mean to you is just wise, because

00:26:47   if you make a change, and lots of people respond to it, and more people respond positively

00:26:51   than negatively, well, then you've made the app better. And it's rather than chasing,

00:26:56   you know, people not being saying unkind things or confirming your your own insecurities,

00:27:01   it's like, confirm this with data, confirm it with something that is concrete and is

00:27:05   more inclusive of all the different and the varied opinions from people who actually matter,

00:27:11   which is, you know, it's like, then if you can make 90% of your customers happy, like,

00:27:15   you're doing great. Yeah, that's, that's fantastic.

00:27:19   Yeah. And, you know, keep in mind that, again, like, when people download your app, they're,

00:27:25   they're doing it for a reason. They they think it looks interesting, or it solves a

00:27:29   problem that they have, or they hope it solves a problem that they have. And many, many people

00:27:35   are willing to pay money for that or who are willing to look at your ads for that or both.

00:27:41   And it's there's no shame in giving people literally what they are there for, like they

00:27:46   are literally there in your app to get some kind of value. And you can hopefully give

00:27:52   them that value. And the only way you can do that is if your app is financially stable

00:27:56   enough that you can actually keep operating it and keep improving it over time and everything.

00:28:01   And so you're actually doing your customers not only a favor, but you're doing exactly

00:28:05   what they want you to do. If you have arranged the app in such a way that makes it financially

00:28:11   sustainable, because they want, they use the app, they want it to continue to be updated,

00:28:17   they want to continue to get better, like that's, that's what they want if they are

00:28:21   using it. And so whatever you have to do to get there, you might lose some of those people,

00:28:26   but most of them are going to be there for it. Because that's the whole reason they're

00:28:29   using your app in the first place. And they need they need it to stick around. Yeah, I

00:28:34   think, in summary, what I was kind of where my mind settles on is it's like, I need to

00:28:38   either I need to be proud of what I'm selling. And if I'm not, I need to sell something different.

00:28:45   And take that perspective that rather than being shy about it, it's like either I need

00:28:50   to be confident and think this is awesome. People should want to give me money for this.

00:28:53   This is amazing. And if I'm not that if I'm not excited, if I'm not proud, well, then

00:28:57   I'm selling the wrong thing. And I need to find something different to sell. Because

00:29:02   clearly it's like that is a much better situation than to feel like, you know, any kind of shyness

00:29:07   or lack of confidence about this. That's the way I should be. And it's like, and then if

00:29:12   I make sort of steps in that direction, I'll feel better about it. It'll be better for

00:29:16   my customers. It's like, everyone's everyone's everyone's excited, because that's the best

00:29:20   my goal. I wonder I want to be excited about what I'm selling. I want people to be excited

00:29:22   about what they're buying. And if that's the case, we're all good.

00:29:25   I like this perspective that you've developed. That's good. Thank you for listening, everybody.

00:29:30   We will talk to you in two weeks. Bye

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