00:00:00 ◼ ► Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development. I'm Marco Arment.
00:00:05 ◼ ► And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
00:00:10 ◼ ► So for today, I thought I wanted to talk about something that's kind of been rattling around
00:00:20 ◼ ► am I proud of what I'm selling in my apps? And if not, why? And if I am, then do I, you
00:00:35 ◼ ► And specifically, this was coming, sort of thinking through some situations in Pedometer
00:00:45 ◼ ► screens and the way that I was trying to sell things in the app, and was kind of realizing
00:00:50 ◼ ► that a lot of the way that I had been thinking about it and the way that I had been structuring
00:00:55 ◼ ► my, you know, purchase screens and things in many ways was coming from a position that,
00:01:07 ◼ ► hand like, please, sir, will you give me some money to my customers and that it wasn't coming
00:01:13 ◼ ► from this place that I felt confident and proud of what it was that I was selling, that
00:01:22 ◼ ► I think you would like, I think it is worth the money that I'm charging for it. And here
00:01:31 ◼ ► like hiding my purchase screen in like hard to find places and putting it kind of like,
00:01:38 ◼ ► it's like, well, you know, maybe people who've been using the app for a really long time
00:01:45 ◼ ► give me money. And it's like, why am I like, you know, scrolling this away somewhere? This
00:01:49 ◼ ► should be clear and obvious and straightforward. And the first place that this happened, I
00:01:55 ◼ ► think was something that is a much more succinct version is in pedometer++ for years and years,
00:02:08 ◼ ► that used to be a tip jar entirely. And then it became something that was a bit, you know,
00:02:18 ◼ ► ads, you can pay for this. And this has always been in the bottom section of the settings
00:02:31 ◼ ► this gear icon in the top left corner, and then scroll all the way to the bottom of that
00:02:34 ◼ ► list. And it's probably maybe a two or three screen fulls of scroll. And that's the way
00:02:41 ◼ ► it's all had been had been that way for years. And when I was starting to have these kind
00:02:46 ◼ ► of thoughts and thinking about how I'm positioning my my net purchases, I was like, I imagine
00:02:51 ◼ ► many people who might want to remove the ads from the application have no idea that they
00:02:56 ◼ ► can. I have no idea that this is something that's possible, because it's like I'm almost
00:03:00 ◼ ► like hiding this feature, this ability, this offering away from them. And so two versions
00:03:06 ◼ ► ago, I added just a little button here on the top right of the ad that says remove ads.
00:03:12 ◼ ► And if you tap on that, it potentially prompts you for the prompts you for the purchase,
00:03:17 ◼ ► you can hit, you know, yes, and you can remove the ads that way. And I wasn't sure what the
00:03:26 ◼ ► you can't even just tell my posture and how nervous I was about doing this. I even added
00:03:38 ◼ ► it would be like I would be able to like instantaneously just like turn this off. Turns out, I was
00:03:42 ◼ ► like, "Oh, yeah, that's what I'm talking about." People love it. It's great. The revenue
00:03:46 ◼ ► from like in-app purchase inside of pedometer is up by something like two or three times.
00:03:53 ◼ ► And I've had no negative, only positive responses to this that like, "Great, I can remove the
00:04:08 ◼ ► want." And it wasn't even just like, at first I was like, "Oh, maybe it'll just be like
00:04:11 ◼ ► for the first couple of weeks." It's like, "Nope, it's been like two months now and it's
00:04:14 ◼ ► continued to be popular, have people download it or like, you know, buy it regularly." And
00:04:20 ◼ ► I just like wish I'd been done this all along. I wish I'd been like realized that like, "No,
00:04:24 ◼ ► like I don't need to be ashamed of this. Like, it's a feature. I think it's worth like the
00:04:29 ◼ ► exchange that you get to, you know, I forgo the revenue from ads and you get the benefit
00:04:33 ◼ ► of not having ads in the app. Everyone wins." But that's not where I was coming from when
00:04:37 ◼ ► I made this, you know, implemented this feature years ago. So I would encourage everyone else
00:04:44 ◼ ► That's, first of all, congratulations on the raise that you just gave yourself. Thank you.
00:04:51 ◼ ► And I would also suggest, since you tiptoed right up to this but didn't go there, I would
00:04:56 ◼ ► suggest developers out there, if you ever make a change to your app that suddenly makes
00:05:05 ◼ ► meantime from not having done that earlier, because that's just depressing. But congratulations
00:05:31 ◼ ► And there's a whole bunch of stuff to unpack on that. Can't all fit in one episode, but
00:05:36 ◼ ► there's obviously areas like salary negotiations where that can be fairly important. But going
00:05:42 ◼ ► back to the context of apps, it's hard for a lot of us to put ourselves out there, because
00:05:47 ◼ ► that's what you're really doing. You're putting yourself out there. You're saying, "Look,
00:05:55 ◼ ► have you just use it if you want to. I'm actually asking for money." And that's a very, very
00:06:06 ◼ ► people notice and find ways to give you money. Because obviously some people will, as you
00:06:12 ◼ ► know, many people have, but not as many as if you just ask them for money or if you put
00:06:17 ◼ ► up some kind of barrier or wall. And if you look around the app store, the way most apps
00:06:23 ◼ ► are monetized is by basically beating people over the head with ads and purchase opportunities
00:06:30 ◼ ► until they succumb. It's the opposite of this shy nerd approach that we are so familiar
00:06:56 ◼ ► turned off by that world, but it's also very easy to be a little too far into our comfortable,
00:07:14 ◼ ► didn't work very well. Even things I do in Overcast now, I never use the ratings prompt,
00:07:36 ◼ ► my competitors. And even apps that I know I have way more users than, but I have orders
00:07:58 ◼ ► with our app?" And if you say yes, it shows the ratings dialogue. And if you say no, it's
00:08:02 ◼ ► like, "What are you? Contact customer service." I don't do any of that crap, but it does
00:08:07 ◼ ► work. And so we have to kind of decide when things are beyond our comfort zone for either
00:08:25 ◼ ► has a big enough payoff for the app, and what are we not?" And those thresholds can change
00:08:29 ◼ ► over time because conditions change over time and you change over time. And the market and
00:08:39 ◼ ► for seven years that says I'll never interrupt you for ratings, I would probably start interrupting
00:08:43 ◼ ► people for ratings because it makes such a big difference now in the numbers of ratings
00:08:48 ◼ ► you get and no one seems to mind anymore. Like seven years ago, that was a big problem.
00:08:54 ◼ ► People were getting annoyed like crazy. Today, no one cares. Another thing that I would almost
00:09:00 ◼ ► certainly do these days is push notifications for promotional purposes, which sucks. And
00:09:17 ◼ ► of people install the app. Some of them start an account, whatever, log in, and then they
00:09:22 ◼ ► might forget about it and never use it again. I should probably do what most apps do, which
00:10:46 ◼ ► As a customer of apps, I know that I appreciate when there's a remove ads button because
00:11:10 ◼ ► And so I feel like that is one of those areas where we have to kind of just get over our
00:11:16 ◼ ► shyness because it's so beneficial to monetize apps with ads and to have a remove ads option
00:11:24 ◼ ► for people who want that. That's so beneficial for all parties involved. And obviously there's
00:11:30 ◼ ► some details about whether the ads are creepy or whatever, but that's kind of a separate
00:11:39 ◼ ► kind of arrangement and so many people who benefit from that kind of arrangement in general,
00:11:59 ◼ ► my case, the old version where it's like the remove ads button was buried deep in settings.
00:12:11 ◼ ► I think of you with your ratings prompt system, where like you do get some ratings and it's
00:12:21 ◼ ► it. It's like you have some. And it's easy, I think sometimes, and this is something I've
00:12:26 ◼ ► seen myself, to whatever that initial response is, whatever the initial kind of like income
00:12:34 ◼ ► I get or number of ratings or whatever that might be, I very quickly will kind of almost
00:12:40 ◼ ► normalize that as in my head that's as good as it could ever be. Like that becomes like,
00:12:47 ◼ ► well, this is what the app can make. This is what the app's like. It becomes the ceiling
00:13:02 ◼ ► had that button like buried so far down in settings, or was so hard to get to, or I was
00:13:07 ◼ ► so shy about asking for money, that I never got anything, well, I would change it, right?
00:13:27 ◼ ► my brain anchored on that, that's what this app can make, that's what it will always do.
00:13:34 ◼ ► And I just sort of like moved on and stopped asking this question, rather than it being
00:13:38 ◼ ► something where I, whatever I get initially is like, okay, that's what it can do. Clearly,
00:13:45 ◼ ► and like what I should have thought with that is it's like, huh, people like this, some
00:13:59 ◼ ► make sure that all the people who might want to give me the money in this way are aware
00:14:07 ◼ ► value exchange that I give them, I give them a feature or in this case, remove something
00:14:12 ◼ ► from the app, and they give me money. And like, no one in that transaction is like coming
00:14:17 ◼ ► out the worst for it. We're both getting something valuable. And so I should seek to make sure
00:14:23 ◼ ► that everybody who might want to do that has the opportunity to do that. And like you said,
00:14:29 ◼ ► I could certainly go down a road where it is too aggressive, where it is too problematic
00:14:35 ◼ ► that I get and I would likely at some point you would almost certainly hit a wall where
00:14:40 ◼ ► it starts to become problematic. And I'm sure those, you know, like the in-app purchase
00:14:45 ◼ ► casino style games are like geared and tuned finely such that they are like one iota on
00:14:57 ◼ ► too high of an uninstall rate. I mean, maybe they are. I'm just saying like, it's something
00:15:02 ◼ ► where like, there is a tuning that can happen there. But I suspect that tuning is not like,
00:15:13 ◼ ► I am so far from that, like where I am and where my instinct is, is so far removed from
00:15:20 ◼ ► that. I have a lot of space to play with a lot of opportunity to give people opportunities
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00:17:33 ◼ ► sort of logical place to go with this kind of thinking, and this is something that gets
00:17:37 ◼ ► into something I've been changing and doing in widgetsmith a bit more is, and sometimes
00:17:42 ◼ ► I feel it's weird, it's like slightly embarrassed that all these there's all these industry
00:18:06 ◼ ► testing where you make two versions of something and you see which one performs better, and
00:18:11 ◼ ► you keep the one that's sort of better and you have almost like this, like evolutionary
00:18:23 ◼ ► this. And I've never done a lot of A/B testing. It's not something I've particularly gone
00:18:29 ◼ ► down the road in my mind. I think it's coming from a place of it's like, well, I'm going
00:18:32 ◼ ► to design it the best way I can. And that's the best because it was the best. Like that's
00:18:42 ◼ ► it's also the reality of it's like, my definition of the best might not be the best by customers
00:18:47 ◼ ► or might be better in ways that I don't understand or that doesn't appeal to me. So it was one
00:19:02 ◼ ► now I'm not doing A/B testing where I'm doing two concurrent things where it's like, you
00:19:06 ◼ ► know, half of my people get one and half people get the other. I may go down that road eventually.
00:19:15 ◼ ► the result and seeing if my conversion rate increases if I change my purchase screen in
00:19:21 ◼ ► a different way, if I'm more clear or emphasize one aspect of my subscription rather than
00:19:27 ◼ ► the other. And I think in the same way is sort of the being shy about asking for money.
00:19:31 ◼ ► It's being thoughtful about this process and understanding that I need what I need to do
00:19:37 ◼ ► is like, I need to communicate why someone should subscribe and be forthright and straightforward.
00:19:42 ◼ ► And it's like everyone's on the same page. You're getting these features for this money.
00:19:46 ◼ ► I don't need to be ashamed or think that's problematic. But if I don't communicate what
00:19:51 ◼ ► they're getting, if I'm not being clear about this value proposition, if I'm not showing
00:20:00 ◼ ► worse off. And the customers worse off. And it's like everyone's in a bad place if I don't
00:20:11 ◼ ► in the same way is like something that I should be doing to make sure that I'm taking full
00:20:18 ◼ ► Yeah, because you know, another angle to consider is that everyone thinks about money differently.
00:20:26 ◼ ► And so there's going to be people, you know, whatever, however willing you personally are,
00:20:32 ◼ ► as the developer of your app, like to spend money in or on other apps, there's going to
00:20:37 ◼ ► be people above and below you, there's going to be people who are way more willing to spend
00:20:44 ◼ ► they want to achieve. Because look, they downloaded their app, your app for a reason. They got
00:20:48 ◼ ► your app to do something. And if it does that after you pay them or after they pay you some
00:20:58 ◼ ► some kind of money somehow, because that's how most things work in apps. So great, okay.
00:21:07 ◼ ► are. And you're going to hear from those people no matter what you do. And so as as you're
00:21:12 ◼ ► setting thresholds and making decisions, making pricing and you know, paywall kind of decisions
00:21:17 ◼ ► for your apps, it's really important to, to always keep in mind that no matter what you
00:21:24 ◼ ► do, you're going to hear from people who don't want to pay or who don't like your ads or
00:21:29 ◼ ► whatever, like and I, I get this all the time I get people, you know, maybe maybe a few
00:21:38 ◼ ► like, I think I think my ads are pretty nice. But their ads for podcasts in a podcast app.
00:21:45 ◼ ► It's pretty hard to argue that they're like, they're pretty as ads go, they're pretty nice.
00:21:51 ◼ ► But I still get occasional one star reviews because the app contains ads. Not those people
00:21:54 ◼ ► ever tried to remove them. Or would it if even even if you know, they even if they wanted
00:22:00 ◼ ► to, I don't think they those people necessarily would. But you know, that's the thing. I also
00:22:05 ◼ ► have occasional one star reviews from people who complain that I have a subscription that
00:22:09 ◼ ► removes the ads, and that there's no like lifetime purchase option, one star never buying
00:22:18 ◼ ► to exist. I also have lots of people who subscribe and just quietly enjoy the app and I never
00:22:29 ◼ ► happily either buy the subscription, or who look at the ads, or in some cases both. Because
00:22:36 ◼ ► I give I give people the option. Hey, if you want to subscribe and also leave the ads on
00:22:39 ◼ ► you can. And I don't have numbers exactly on how many people do that. But it's not zero.
00:22:45 ◼ ► It's not a lot, but it's not zero. And so there's like, there's a whole range of people.
00:22:49 ◼ ► And again, no matter what policy or decisions you make, you're going to have people who
00:22:54 ◼ ► complain about it. So just the fact that people are complaining about it doesn't mean anything.
00:23:04 ◼ ► of people using the app, as opposed to like the majority. And also, is your business doing
00:23:10 ◼ ► well regardless, you know, like it, if you're making enough money from from your business
00:23:14 ◼ ► that you don't need to care about all the people who say it's too expensive, or I don't
00:23:19 ◼ ► want any ads or subscriptions or anything or whatever, then you don't need to care about
00:23:22 ◼ ► those people. And so it's it really has to you have to be willing to experiment in this
00:23:27 ◼ ► area and be willing to push boundaries a little bit not only past some people's comfort who
00:23:35 ◼ ► some cases, you know, I never would have guessed seven years ago that I would have ads as my
00:23:46 ◼ ► you know, failure kind of thing. I think it's great. And so, you know, be willing to experiment
00:23:53 ◼ ► Jared Ranere: Yeah, I think too, there's an element as what you're saying to have understanding
00:24:06 ◼ ► your online community is, or whatever that might be. And I think it is very easy to optimize
00:24:14 ◼ ► around yourself and the people you're around a lot. And then miss trip, miss or miss, miss
00:24:21 ◼ ► the fact that your audience for your application, I mean, it may be slightly different if you're
00:24:31 ◼ ► But most apps, that's not their primary audience, most apps, it's something else. And I mean,
00:24:35 ◼ ► I've become been made very aware of this with Widgetsmith in a way that I wasn't necessarily
00:24:42 ◼ ► with even some of my other apps, but where Widgetsmith has a very wide audience, a very
00:24:54 ◼ ► I kind of I understand the fitness, like with my earlier fitness apps, I understand that
00:25:00 ◼ ► world a bit more, because that's something that I personally am very interested in, you
00:25:10 ◼ ► about that in industry, I am not particularly, you know, robust in the world of fashion and
00:25:26 ◼ ► what they're interested in, that is what their focus is. And so I need to remind myself
00:26:05 ◼ ► way I roll. But if I get a customer who says something similar, like, oh, one star, I hate
00:26:15 ◼ ► have it just confirmed that like, oh, yeah, no ads are bad. I shouldn't do that. Versus
00:26:20 ◼ ► a cyclist, that's one person's opinion. And probably, you know, the probably a minority
00:26:35 ◼ ► a little bit of experimentation, doing things to actually gather data from the rest of your
00:26:41 ◼ ► audience, not the one or two people who said something mean to you is just wise, because
00:26:47 ◼ ► if you make a change, and lots of people respond to it, and more people respond positively
00:26:56 ◼ ► you know, people not being saying unkind things or confirming your your own insecurities,
00:27:05 ◼ ► more inclusive of all the different and the varied opinions from people who actually matter,
00:27:19 ◼ ► Yeah. And, you know, keep in mind that, again, like, when people download your app, they're,
00:27:29 ◼ ► problem that they have, or they hope it solves a problem that they have. And many, many people
00:27:35 ◼ ► are willing to pay money for that or who are willing to look at your ads for that or both.
00:27:41 ◼ ► And it's there's no shame in giving people literally what they are there for, like they
00:27:56 ◼ ► enough that you can actually keep operating it and keep improving it over time and everything.
00:28:05 ◼ ► what they want you to do. If you have arranged the app in such a way that makes it financially
00:28:11 ◼ ► sustainable, because they want, they use the app, they want it to continue to be updated,
00:28:21 ◼ ► using it. And so whatever you have to do to get there, you might lose some of those people,
00:28:38 ◼ ► either I need to be proud of what I'm selling. And if I'm not, I need to sell something different.
00:28:50 ◼ ► to be confident and think this is awesome. People should want to give me money for this.
00:29:02 ◼ ► clearly it's like that is a much better situation than to feel like, you know, any kind of shyness
00:29:07 ◼ ► or lack of confidence about this. That's the way I should be. And it's like, and then if
00:29:16 ◼ ► my customers. It's like, everyone's everyone's everyone's excited, because that's the best
00:29:20 ◼ ► my goal. I wonder I want to be excited about what I'm selling. I want people to be excited