Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05 ◼   ► And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:11 ◼   ► So I recently just pushed out an update to Widgetsmith, which actually I realized I should

00:00:15 ◼   ► probably mention.

00:00:16 ◼   ► So the update before this one was the incredibly terrifying overhaul to the Photos widget that

00:00:22 ◼   ► I'd been putting off and putting off and putting off, but finally it actually released.

00:00:25 ◼   ► It released.

00:00:26 ◼   ► As far as I can tell, there was not a single problem or issue or person who was confused

00:00:31 ◼   ► or had an issue with it.

00:00:32 ◼   ► So all that beta testing, all the trial and error, using the super safe approach of all

00:00:39 ◼   ► of the existing widgets, their code was completely untouched and I entirely built a new system

00:00:43 ◼   ► entirely in parallel to the old one.

00:00:46 ◼   ► All that seemed to work, so thumbs up for that.

00:00:48 ◼   ► Whew, thank goodness.

00:00:49 ◼   ► Yeah, that's great.

00:00:50 ◼   ► But part of that work, now that the Photos widget is, I feel like, now kind of like good

00:00:55 ◼   ► and modern, made me start to think a little bit about some other ways that I can make

00:01:00 ◼   ► that better.

00:01:01 ◼   ► And Widgetsmith at this point is almost a year old, and so it's starting to kind of get

00:01:05 ◼   ► out of its infancy and kind of to become something that I am hoping will become just sort of

00:01:10 ◼   ► a long-term, stable part of my portfolio.

00:01:13 ◼   ► It's something that I work on regularly.

00:01:15 ◼   ► And as part of that, something that I was thinking about is like, what can I do to increase

00:01:20 ◼   ► retention?

00:01:21 ◼   ► That was a specific sort of measure that I was trying to have in mind.

00:01:24 ◼   ► And specifically, it was starting to think of the first run experience, why people are

00:01:28 ◼   ► using the app, why they download it, what are things that might keep them coming back

00:01:31 ◼   ► to it.

00:01:32 ◼   ► And it's made me start to wonder about some of the defaults that I have in the app.

00:01:39 ◼   ► And specifically, the original default widget in Widgetsmith was the DayDate widget.

00:01:45 ◼   ► So it's just the widget that has in big number the calendar day.

00:01:49 ◼   ► So today was a recording, it would have a big four, and then it would have WED Wednesday

00:01:54 ◼   ► above that.

00:01:56 ◼   ► That's what the default widget is.

00:01:58 ◼   ► And when you first install the app, it would create three widgets, a small, a medium, and

00:02:02 ◼   ► large of that type for all of the sizes.

00:02:09 ◼   ► And I never really thought about that.

00:02:11 ◼   ► And sort of this experience has made me start to think, like, "Hmm, should I change that?

00:02:15 ◼   ► Is this something that would be more beneficial to be the photo widget?"

00:02:18 ◼   ► Because I know that the photo widget is by far the most popular, most widely used widget

00:02:24 ◼   ► of all the widgets.

00:02:25 ◼   ► I think it's something on the order of 85% of the widgets that have been created in Widgetsmith

00:02:30 ◼   ► or photo widgets.

00:02:31 ◼   ► So it made me think, "Should I change to that?"

00:02:33 ◼   ► And that was a trickier question than I initially thought, because part of what I was thinking

00:02:40 ◼   ► before, and this was not the—when I initially built it, there was no photo widget.

00:02:44 ◼   ► When I launched Widgetsmith, when Widgetsmith blew up, when it went big, there was no photo

00:02:49 ◼   ► widget.

00:02:50 ◼   ► So I built an album widget, which was the closest thing that existed at the time, where

00:02:54 ◼   ► you could select a photo album and have it cycle through those pictures.

00:03:00 ◼   ► But I didn't actually have a photo widget.

00:03:01 ◼   ► I threw that together in the first two days of it kind of going crazy.

00:03:06 ◼   ► That's part of the problem that I was then paying off recently with overhauling the photo

00:03:10 ◼   ► widget with something that I built over the course of a few weeks rather than a few days.

00:03:13 ◼   ► But all I have to say is, when I built it initially, that couldn't have been the default.

00:03:19 ◼   ► And now that that's the most popular thing and the thing people use it for, it became

00:03:23 ◼   ► a question of, "Should that be the default widget rather than the date/time?"

00:03:27 ◼   ► And on the one hand, there was a part of me that was saying, "I probably should."

00:03:31 ◼   ► I suspect most of the people who are downloading the app are expecting to use it for showing

00:03:38 ◼   ► photos on their home screen.

00:03:39 ◼   ► And so if I can kind of streamline that process and push them in that direction and make it

00:03:43 ◼   ► more obvious and straightforward, that will sort of help with that process and help with

00:03:49 ◼   ► retention insofar as people will be less likely to be confused about what's going on.

00:03:54 ◼   ► You know, they download the app and they install it, they're like, "I don't know what to do.

00:03:57 ◼   ► This is all about dates.

00:03:59 ◼   ► That's not going to be helpful."

00:04:00 ◼   ► But on the other hand, there was a part of me that was like, "I kind of liked in a weird

00:04:04 ◼   ► way that you would download it.

00:04:07 ◼   ► It would show you a widget and sort of in the process of setting up your first widget

00:04:12 ◼   ► was sort of teaching you a little bit about the app because it would show you the day/date

00:04:16 ◼   ► version, but I always structured them so that the photo widget was always in the first screen

00:04:22 ◼   ► when you sort of tapped on it.

00:04:24 ◼   ► It was right below the day/date widget.

00:04:26 ◼   ► So you could always see the one you wanted, essentially, but you had to choose it.

00:04:31 ◼   ► And the act of choosing it, in my mind, in some ways, was almost a form of onboarding.

00:04:35 ◼   ► But anyway, so I went back and forth a lot about that, and we can talk about sort of

00:04:40 ◼   ► those options.

00:04:41 ◼   ► And I decided to go with it as the default, largely because it's this funny thing of,

00:04:47 ◼   ► I was like, in my mind, I was trying to teach people, but it's like, why am I teaching them

00:04:50 ◼   ► when I could make it sort of un-teached without the need of being teached in the first place?

00:04:56 ◼   ► I could make it sort of this unteachable thing that, for most, I optimized for the most likely

00:05:01 ◼   ► case, the most obvious case, and even to the degree of I changed it so that now when you

00:05:06 ◼   ► hit add widget for a new widget, rather than showing you the thing where you can set up

00:05:11 ◼   ► timed widgets, I immediately just jump you to the default widget screen, assuming that

00:05:17 ◼   ► you're only going to have one photo, and it's going to be shown 24 hours a day, and sort

00:05:21 ◼   ► of optimizing that experience as a result.

00:05:24 ◼   ► And this update, I only pushed out a few hours ago, so it's a bit early for me to tell how

00:05:31 ◼   ► effective it is.

00:05:32 ◼   ► Overall, I kind of like the thinking, but it made me thinking a whole lot about default

00:05:36 ◼   ► settings and that at first turn experience, and things along those lines.

00:05:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think it's really tricky to get good defaults, and defaults matter so much,

00:05:46 ◼   ► because for such a large percentage of your user base, that's going to be all they ever

00:05:53 ◼   ► know.

00:05:54 ◼   ► They're not going to go and change anything, that's going to be the experience.

00:05:58 ◼   ► So I think you've done the right thing here, because what you want to optimize for is,

00:06:03 ◼   ► if no one ever changes anything, what is the best and most reasonable and most featured

00:06:09 ◼   ► experience they can have that will solve their needs, not confuse them, and make them succeed

00:06:15 ◼   ► at what they're trying to do, and make you look good as the app maker.

00:06:19 ◼   ► And so in this case, I think that works, because the timed thing, going from single 24 hour

00:06:26 ◼   ► to timed hour span thing, that distinction, the timed hour span thing, I think is an advanced

00:06:33 ◼   ► feature.

00:06:34 ◼   ► And so I think you made the right move by making the default just be 24 hours a day

00:06:38 ◼   ► show the same thing.

00:06:39 ◼   ► Because that's what most widgets are, that's what most people are going to want to do,

00:06:41 ◼   ► I would assume.

00:06:42 ◼   ► You probably actually have data on that.

00:06:44 ◼   ► - I don't know that you actually do, but that's just an instinct that is the case.

00:06:48 ◼   ► - Right.

00:06:49 ◼   ► And so that, I think, that's the right move for sure.

00:06:52 ◼   ► And opting for photos as the default widget rather than the day date, again, this has

00:06:57 ◼   ► been informed by what users have actually done.

00:07:00 ◼   ► What they've actually told you is, this is how we most commonly use this app.

00:07:04 ◼   ► And so it makes sense to optimize for what people have shown you is the most common average

00:07:11 ◼   ► need or want from the app.

00:07:13 ◼   ► I face a lot of this with Overcast, I face it over the years of various decisions I've

00:07:18 ◼   ► made.

00:07:19 ◼   ► And I haven't found a really good stable state for a lot of my decisions, but I think I've

00:07:26 ◼   ► reached a fairly good point with the exception of, I do think I need to do a little bit more

00:07:31 ◼   ► onboarding in terms of podcast discovery features of maybe after the very first one they add,

00:07:38 ◼   ► maybe put up the thing saying, people who listen to this also listen to, and then give

00:07:42 ◼   ► the big block of all the different podcasts.

00:07:44 ◼   ► It totally makes that sound too.

00:07:46 ◼   ► I give that big block of all those podcasts of, here's a similar thing.

00:07:50 ◼   ► I have that as part of my recommendation engine.

00:07:52 ◼   ► I have that per podcast.

00:07:53 ◼   ► I don't really show it anywhere in the app.

00:07:57 ◼   ► But anyway, there's certain things that the defaults are just kind of up to you to figure

00:08:02 ◼   ► out what do you want to represent your app?

00:08:06 ◼   ► What experience do you want people to have by default and therefore most people to have?

00:08:13 ◼   ► One thing I did years ago now is when I was trying to reduce the amount of email addresses

00:08:19 ◼   ► I had and move everybody to anonymous accounts, I made it so that by default all new accounts

00:08:25 ◼   ► were just anonymous accounts.

00:08:27 ◼   ► There was no email or password associated with all accounts by default.

00:08:30 ◼   ► That was not the original way.

00:08:31 ◼   ► The original way, it put the email and password thing up top on the account creation screen,

00:08:37 ◼   ► and down at the bottom there was a don't do this kind of button.

00:08:41 ◼   ► But because it was big and on top, that was obviously like this is the right path that

00:08:45 ◼   ► I want people to take and most people did.

00:08:47 ◼   ► And when I redesigned the app to basically bury that and to make it much harder to make

00:08:51 ◼   ► all new accounts anonymous by default and then you had to go later, add email addresses

00:08:56 ◼   ► and passwords if you wanted them, that changed the ratio dramatically, obviously.

00:09:01 ◼   ► And so it is kind of a way, defaults are kind of a way to be opinionated and to say this

00:09:07 ◼   ► is how I think things should be done, this is how I think you should use this app.

00:09:11 ◼   ► Features I don't think most people want or need are off by default.

00:09:15 ◼   ► Things like the unread badge, the number badge on the app icon.

00:09:21 ◼   ► I made it clear in the UI that I don't really like this feature, but a lot of people want

00:09:25 ◼   ► it so that's fine, I'll put it in there, but it's off by default.

00:09:29 ◼   ► And there's certain things, like it's hard to make that decision on everything because

00:09:32 ◼   ► one great example is that smart speed and voice boost are off by default and the default

00:09:37 ◼   ► speed is 1x.

00:09:39 ◼   ► And many people therefore never use those features.

00:09:42 ◼   ► But I think it would be very hard to guarantee that those two features would be appropriate

00:09:51 ◼   ► for all content that all people will be listening to, so much so that the people who don't know

00:09:56 ◼   ► how to turn it off and who can't find that screen and never change it, I still want them

00:10:01 ◼   ► to have a good experience.

00:10:03 ◼   ► And I don't think I can be that sure of any kind of modification to the audio.

00:10:08 ◼   ► Like I think that's why the default is the audio is played exactly as it was served,

00:10:13 ◼   ► no modification, no speed adjustment, just raw, and then if you want to go discover those

00:10:19 ◼   ► features then I can offer these cool things.

00:10:22 ◼   ► But it's not universal enough.

00:10:24 ◼   ► I feel like anything that's made by default or on by default, it has to work for everybody.

00:10:30 ◼   ► It has to not mess up for anybody.

00:10:33 ◼   ► Otherwise you're going to risk turning all those people off who will never look at the

00:10:35 ◼   ► screen and the settings and everything to change that stuff or who won't understand

00:10:39 ◼   ► it but then will also have something go wrong with the way they want to use the app.

00:10:44 ◼   ► And it's tricky because so in prep for this episode I went in like on a testing phone

00:10:49 ◼   ► installed overcast just as though I was a very new person and I was very surprised to

00:10:54 ◼   ► see that smart speed and voice boost were off by default because in my mind they are

00:11:00 ◼   ► in many ways part of the secret sauce that makes overcast better than the Apple podcast

00:11:05 ◼   ► app than any of the other apps.

00:11:07 ◼   ► The way that you built those sound engines is the thing that I think I remember way many

00:11:12 ◼   ► years ago I had my own podcast developing perspective and we're having an episode called

00:11:17 ◼   ► Insidious Features and it was all about smart speed because I found that it was completely

00:11:22 ◼   ► insidious in the best way because I couldn't listen to long form audio with something else

00:11:27 ◼   ► because I felt like I was wasting my time.

00:11:30 ◼   ► You were?

00:11:31 ◼   ► Yeah, I was.

00:11:32 ◼   ► This is exactly it.

00:11:33 ◼   ► If I wasn't listening to an audio book in the Audible app at 2x I'm like why am I listening

00:11:39 ◼   ► to all this silence?

00:11:40 ◼   ► I don't want this silence.

00:11:42 ◼   ► The silence is doing me no good.

00:11:44 ◼   ► And it was insidious in that way because it meant that I pushed all my long form audio

00:11:48 ◼   ► listening into overcast and if I wanted to listen to an audio book I found somewhere

00:11:52 ◼   ► that I could buy an MP3 of it and load that into overcast so that I could listen to it

00:11:58 ◼   ► in a podcast player to listen to audio books because it became such this connection that

00:12:04 ◼   ► I had that that is what made overcast the best place to listen to audio because the

00:12:10 ◼   ► rest of the features are nice and I think it's a well designed app and it's great.

00:12:13 ◼   ► We've talked about it in many aspects of it but that was the part that is the hook for

00:12:18 ◼   ► me and so it was just really surprising and it was just interesting hearing you're just

00:12:22 ◼   ► making a justification for why you think it's better to do that because the way that I'm

00:12:27 ◼   ► starting to think is that in your case I would see that the few cases where the audio might

00:12:35 ◼   ► not be suitable for Smart Speed or Voice Boost are less and so in some ways you're making

00:12:46 ◼   ► a worse first run experience for the majority of your users for the benefit of a small number

00:12:55 ◼   ► of your users who may have a less advantageous first run experience and it's like that's

00:13:00 ◼   ► a tricky trade off that it depends on what those numbers are in terms of is it 1% of

00:13:07 ◼   ► people would have a bad experience because they listen to music podcasts and so they

00:13:11 ◼   ► would be messed up or is it that the majority of people listening to podcasts that are fine

00:13:16 ◼   ► and I imagine in some ways you have this data because you know what are the most subscribed

00:13:19 ◼   ► podcasts are and which one of those would be problematic but it seems like in some ways

00:13:24 ◼   ► having that first run experience be really cool in a way that is taking advantage of

00:13:30 ◼   ► it and especially in some ways this is probably more Voice Boost than Smart Speed because I

00:13:34 ◼   ► think spoken audio just sounds better in overcast and I can hear it better and it's clear in

00:13:40 ◼   ► that way but I don't know it was just like that it was really big surprise to me because

00:13:44 ◼   ► it's like that was like the marquee feature and it was surprising that in some way it's

00:13:48 ◼   ► turned off and you not that it's hard to find but you have to look for it it's not even

00:13:53 ◼   ► on that initial player screen that you're gonna you know it's entirely possible that

00:13:56 ◼   ► you could use overcast for a while and not realize that that was something you were missing

00:14:01 ◼   ► out on.

00:14:02 ◼   ► Oh and people do and I think and between the two of them Voice Boost I think it'd be way

00:14:07 ◼   ► more likely to turn that on by default because Smart Speed is it changes something in a noticeable

00:14:13 ◼   ► way and sometimes it's bad you know like sometimes in certain contexts like you mentioned like

00:14:17 ◼   ► you know if you have like a music podcast you don't you definitely don't want Smart

00:14:21 ◼   ► Speed on for that if you have you know just long pauses and things that you actually want

00:14:25 ◼   ► to have all your time wasted which then you know then that's I say this sarcastically

00:14:31 ◼   ► I know I know there's value to that storytellers please calm down but you know Smart Speed

00:14:36 ◼   ► I think is harder to say this is safe for everything but Voice Boost especially the

00:14:42 ◼   ► current Voice Boost like Voice Boost one was a lot more aggressive with how it tweaked

00:14:46 ◼   ► things and kind of you know a fixed thing.

00:14:48 ◼   ► Voice Boost two is mostly just volume normalization and it does that in a way that is high quality

00:14:56 ◼   ► enough and and gentle enough on stuff that's already loud that I could theoretically turn

00:15:01 ◼   ► that on for everything and I don't think it would be a big problem and I might do that

00:15:06 ◼   ► like I you know this is all stuff like I could change my mind on this in any moment I reserve

00:15:09 ◼   ► the right chair maybe my next update I'll turn on Voice Boost by default and see what

00:15:12 ◼   ► happens actually I can do that anytime because that's a server side thing anyway so but you

00:15:19 ◼   ► know one thing that's tricky though is like also for marketing reasons if I if these things

00:15:25 ◼   ► were just on by default on the background people wouldn't know that Overcast is doing

00:15:30 ◼   ► it necessarily like they would just think oh this like they wouldn't even notice unless

00:15:34 ◼   ► they like turned it off but by by having those be buttons that you have to turn on and then

00:15:41 ◼   ► you hear or in case of Smart Speed also see the difference that they make then that makes

00:15:46 ◼   ► my app look better and that might be a wow moment where people say oh my god and then

00:15:50 ◼   ► they might tell their friends or they might post on social matter or something like that

00:15:53 ◼   ► and that's so if that's if it's just on by default they might not even realize it's doing

00:15:58 ◼   ► that and then you might lose that that kind of marketing or delight benefit and and like

00:16:04 ◼   ► word of mouth marketing might suffer as a result of that because it's just doing things

00:16:07 ◼   ► for them making things better in a way that they they would have probably noticed if they

00:16:11 ◼   ► would have manually seen it and turned it on but if it's just on and they never know

00:16:16 ◼   ► that then it's I don't know I feel like that that wouldn't be as big of a marketing benefit

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00:18:08 ◼   ► So the way you're describing that it makes me really think about is how I think of is

00:18:12 ◼   ► it true tone on our iPhone?

00:18:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:15 ◼   ► First like the first time you and you know you get a phone or an iPad that has true tone

00:18:19 ◼   ► on it and it's this weird thing like Apple the way they handle it is in the onboarding

00:18:24 ◼   ► experience for that device you know they say you know would you like true tone turned on

00:18:29 ◼   ► and they have a button that's essentially like would you like it on or would you like

00:18:32 ◼   ► it off and you know as you push the button in and off it changes the the color of a thing

00:18:36 ◼   ► is a very white screen usually so that you get a good sense of what it's doing to the

00:18:40 ◼   ► color the color mapping and it's like that's the way that Apple chooses to do that where

00:18:45 ◼   ► it's it's a tricky for a feature that is subtle that once you decide if you want true tone

00:18:49 ◼   ► on or off you'll in some ways it just disappears and it if it's if it's if it's doing its job

00:18:56 ◼   ► correctly you should never notice it in the same way with voice boost for smart speed

00:19:00 ◼   ► that if it's doing its job correctly you won't notice it it's just better but it's like to

00:19:04 ◼   ► your point I definitely totally see the sense of you want people to know that it's better

00:19:08 ◼   ► for a reason that is tangible and they they could put a name to rather than if you make

00:19:13 ◼   ► it better but it's just in a subtle way that they're sort of not aware of then there's

00:19:17 ◼   ► less affinity for your app because I know overcast is better because I know what smart

00:19:22 ◼   ► speed is I know what voice boost is but if I didn't know those names because they were

00:19:27 ◼   ► just on by default and I never changed anything or never loaded the settings screen I'd have

00:19:31 ◼   ► no way of knowing and so like in some ways you could imagine you know showing that in

00:19:35 ◼   ► in that kind of initial walkthrough video or having things where you have kind of help

00:19:40 ◼   ► thing we have help information for your customers but then it's like then you have this long

00:19:44 ◼   ► onboarding experience that can be awkward and cumbersome in its own way so that is definitely

00:19:49 ◼   ► a tough sort of trade-off we have to fight. Another big thing that I faced is what to

00:19:54 ◼   ► do about playlists and and the default playlist behavior and and you know so so that the issue

00:19:59 ◼   ► I have you know so overcast has the playlist thing on top and then on the bottom you have

00:20:03 ◼   ► all the podcasts like separated and many people never use playlists like they they just want

00:20:08 ◼   ► to use the separated podcast groups and they go and pick the one they want play it and

00:20:13 ◼   ► that's it and many people never do that and only use playlists I'm that kind that kind

00:20:18 ◼   ► I only use playlists I never go individually. Me too. But it's such a big split in the user

00:20:24 ◼   ► base the app really has to accommodate both of those things and one challenge I've faced

00:20:28 ◼   ► is that playlists are the heart of a lot of functionality in overcast that other apps

00:20:33 ◼   ► do in different ways and the biggest one is a queue or an up next kind of feature so when

00:20:38 ◼   ► this became a popular thing in podcast apps and people started asking me to do a queue

00:20:43 ◼   ► instead of making like a separate thing I just made it a playlist and and so I added

00:20:49 ◼   ► like queue buttons throughout the app but if you do that it just creates a playlist

00:20:54 ◼   ► named queue if you don't already have one and does the queue functionality in that because

00:21:00 ◼   ► it provides what you need it has like you know a reorderable editable list and whatever

00:21:04 ◼   ► and my playlists also have two different types they can be they can be like regular playlist

00:21:08 ◼   ► or smart playlist and I and I thought this that by mirroring the functionality that iTunes

00:21:14 ◼   ► had forever I thought people would get it you know so you know smart playlist is basically

00:21:18 ◼   ► a filter and and it automatically you know it's like alright we'll include everything

00:21:22 ◼   ► from these podcasts but not these podcasts order it in this way and you know and let

00:21:26 ◼   ► me also manually reorder it and then a I guess dumb or you know non smart playlist is just

00:21:32 ◼   ► nothing appears by itself you automate you manually add whatever you want to be on this

00:21:36 ◼   ► playlist by various you know buttons throughout the app or anything and otherwise it's like

00:21:40 ◼   ► nothing nothing appears on it by itself and and then you you know you get to reorder it

00:21:44 ◼   ► again if you want to all that stuff and and so one issue I have is exposing this functionality

00:21:50 ◼   ► in a way that people will even try it or will even know that it's there so one trick I do

00:21:56 ◼   ► is the very first time an account has added its I think it's either second or third podcast

00:22:04 ◼   ► I create a playlist on that account automatically called I think it's called all episodes or

00:22:08 ◼   ► something like that and I should we know this off the top but I don't anyway so and that's

00:22:14 ◼   ► all done server side too so like yeah the very first time an account creates its second

00:22:17 ◼   ► or third playlist or podcast I add this playlist that's a smart playlist that includes everything

00:22:22 ◼   ► by default because that is I think what most people want in if they're only going to have

00:22:26 ◼   ► one playlist and kind of and play from that that's what most people want so I just create

00:22:31 ◼   ► that as part and I don't ask I just do it and if they want they can delete it you know

00:22:35 ◼   ► I'm not stopping them so then this creates a couple of interesting questions so first

00:22:40 ◼   ► of all again what should the settings be in this case I think it's fairly obvious you

00:22:43 ◼   ► know you might quibble over how it should be sorted maybe but otherwise like a smart

00:22:47 ◼   ► playlist that includes everything by default fine but if they delete that playlist and

00:22:54 ◼   ► then want to recreate it there is currently a lot of confusion around that you know if

00:22:58 ◼   ► they delete that playlist if they go back and hit the add playlist button they have

00:23:02 ◼   ► two options new playlist and new smart playlist well they don't necessarily know the difference

00:23:09 ◼   ► so this is actually a big part of my you oh and by the way and if you and if you go and

00:23:12 ◼   ► create a smart playlist from that button it will actually be that same thing it won't

00:23:18 ◼   ► have the same title you'll have to type in the title yourself and so that whole interface

00:23:23 ◼   ► I think is actually kind of a huge opportunity for improvement for me that I really need

00:23:26 ◼   ► to tackle of like what I want to do instead instead of like trying to add more text everywhere

00:23:32 ◼   ► and you know any other options what I want to do is when you hit that add playlist button

00:23:36 ◼   ► I want to put up basically a screen of templates of like here's like you know three to five

00:23:42 ◼   ► example playlists like all recent episodes manually selected episodes you know stuff

00:23:47 ◼   ► like that like I'll download it or whatever like you know I have to add that feature first

00:23:51 ◼   ► but so like I want to I want to put up a something like that that's more like here are some templates

00:23:56 ◼   ► you want to do and then you know at the bottom of that list is like you know new you know

00:23:59 ◼   ► new raw playlist or whatever you know obviously I'd find better words for it but that to me

00:24:04 ◼   ► is like it's an opportunity where there is a lot of functionality hidden behind here

00:24:09 ◼   ► my current my status quo confuses people and I can totally see why and I mean I can't even

00:24:15 ◼   ► tell you how many emails I get from people who are asking for functionality that is already

00:24:20 ◼   ► in playlists but they just never thought to because they don't think they want playlists

00:24:25 ◼   ► like just the term that they just don't think they want that but it's functionality that

00:24:28 ◼   ► already exists if they would just make a playlist and you know set the rules this way so like

00:24:32 ◼   ► obviously there's a need for this and my current defaults are okay but they're not solving

00:24:37 ◼   ► the full need and I need to adjust that.

00:24:40 ◼   ► Yeah it is called all episodes by the way.

00:24:43 ◼   ► Oh thanks.

00:24:44 ◼   ► In my testing account I just went ahead and added a second podcast and it created a playlist

00:24:50 ◼   ► called all episodes but I think you're definitely onto something I think and this is something

00:24:55 ◼   ► that I've been hitting on a few times with WidgetSmith too recently is this the concept

00:24:59 ◼   ► of it's sort of trying to guide people in the middle of the operation that they're trying

00:25:06 ◼   ► to do to be able to use the functionality that you're creating so I think you're absolutely

00:25:12 ◼   ► when you hit your add playlist that button going to a screen that is showing you a couple

00:25:17 ◼   ► of templates or in giving you an opportunity to that's the perfect place to have the extra

00:25:23 ◼   ► you know extra text extra graphics whatever it is to explain what's happening because

00:25:28 ◼   ► a customer is in a place where that's what they're trying to do right they're trying

00:25:33 ◼   ► to add a playlist and so being educated about what playlists are what the different types

00:25:37 ◼   ► are what the ramifications are or just being able to just choose between a couple of templates

00:25:42 ◼   ► that I want you know reverse chronological or chronological or manually controlled like

00:25:48 ◼   ► that is a great place to do that and it's a way in some ways of a right like I love

00:25:53 ◼   ► the sort of the combination of those where having a default playlist that just appears

00:25:59 ◼   ► for those people is for the if you if you don't want to think about playlists if you

00:26:04 ◼   ► just want to listen to podcasts that's probably exactly all you ever need is you know a place

00:26:11 ◼   ► that you can go that combines all the episodes from all your favorite all your subscribed

00:26:15 ◼   ► podcasts in one big list you hit play and it just keeps playing from one to the next

00:26:20 ◼   ► like that is probably what you want but if you want more then have you know providing

00:26:24 ◼   ► an opportunity to teach them about that and to give them defaults not sort of default

00:26:30 ◼   ► in the first run experience sense but default in the sense of you know here's a bunch of

00:26:36 ◼   ► different options and templates that'll get sort of get you up and running and educating

00:26:40 ◼   ► them as you go I think that's an interesting approach and something that I think is better

00:26:46 ◼   ► too like essentially with photo widgets one of the changes I made before is if you didn't

00:26:51 ◼   ► if you'd never selected a photo for any of my photos widgets I just had like the SF symbol

00:26:56 ◼   ► for a photo inside of a black background which I thought like looks cool but at the same

00:27:02 ◼   ► time is also kind of useless and pointless and so changing to the photo widget being

00:27:06 ◼   ► the default widget I should now instead if you haven't chosen a photo it just says please

00:27:11 ◼   ► select photo inside of that widget and it's like I'm trying to put the help text that

00:27:17 ◼   ► you probably want to know and inside of the thing that you're seeing and so it's like

00:27:21 ◼   ► oh I need to select a photo so how do I do that well if you tap on it the screen that

00:27:25 ◼   ► it will take you to has a big thing that says select photo and you hit that and you know

00:27:29 ◼   ► choose choose the photo and do the permissions dialogues or whatever we need to do to deal

00:27:32 ◼   ► with it but it's like I'm trying to educate you at the moment that you're trying to do

00:27:37 ◼   ► something by putting that there rather than doing it as some kind of like walkthrough

00:27:42 ◼   ► you know swipey thing that I have to go through six pages of documentation before I can start

00:27:47 ◼   ► using it I want you to start using it right away and then at the moment that you need

00:27:50 ◼   ► the information hopefully providing it to you.

00:27:53 ◼   ► Yeah exactly. One little quick thing before we before we finish a little fun little default

00:27:57 ◼   ► story I I wanted to change eventually I'm gonna I'm gonna drop my custom font in Overcast

00:28:04 ◼   ► and the system font will be the only option and I don't really know how this is gonna

00:28:08 ◼   ► be received I'm a little wary about it and so one thing I did a few versions ago was

00:28:14 ◼   ► I changed the default font from my custom font to the system font this is actually probably

00:28:19 ◼   ► almost a year ago now and the you know the percentage like I have analytics on like what

00:28:24 ◼   ► font people use so I know how many people I'm going to be angering and the percentage

00:28:30 ◼   ► of people who use the system font went from you know something like 15 or 20 percent up

00:28:35 ◼   ► to like 80 percent like it's it's now a pretty pretty high number which shows you just how

00:28:40 ◼   ► many people never change the defaults but also I also got a number of responses and

00:28:46 ◼   ► emails from people complimenting me on the redesign because not only did they never change

00:28:53 ◼   ► the default font they didn't even know that you could they didn't even they never went

00:28:57 ◼   ► to that theme screen in the in the app they had no idea this was even an option so this

00:29:03 ◼   ► goes to show the power of defaults you get a free redesign.

00:29:08 ◼   ► Sure.

00:29:09 ◼   ► And I think it just speaks to it's the importance of really think being thoughtful about this

00:29:14 ◼   ► because you're the default experience is the experience that the vast majority of your

00:29:18 ◼   ► users are going to have and it is by sort of by definition the experience that all of

00:29:22 ◼   ► your new users have and so if your defaults aren't good I don't your first run experience

00:29:27 ◼   ► can't be good either and so be really thoughtful about it and but also I suppose be open to

00:29:33 ◼   ► it experimenting with and changing it because your first year default defaults might not

00:29:38 ◼   ► be right.

00:29:39 ◼   ► Thank you for listening everybody and we'll talk to you in two weeks.

00:29:42 ◼   ► Bye.

00:29:43 ◼   ► [ Silence ]