0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:04I'm Marco Arment.
0:00:05And I'm David Smith.
0:00:06Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:09So WWDC 2021 was just announced the other day,
0:00:14and it's online only again, which I don't think is a big surprise.
0:00:19No.
0:00:20Because in the state of the world, I think that's the right decision, and also not surprising.
0:00:23It looks like it's going to be very similar to last year,
0:00:26which actually I'm looking forward to, because even though there are certain things about the online only format
0:00:34that are not as good or missing that we had in the in-person days,
0:00:38as we discussed last year, there were a lot of things about the online only format that were better
0:00:42and certainly way more accessible to way more people
0:00:45and way less disruptive even to the people who were previously attending the conference in person.
0:00:51So honestly, I kind of like this, and I'm looking forward to it.
0:00:56Yeah, no, me too.
0:00:58I mean, it's probably fair to say it has been announced, and it is June 7th through 11th,
0:01:03so it's back in its kind of earlier in June slot.
0:01:07You know, in 2020, they pushed it.
0:01:09It's not like they ever announced a date, but typically it had been sort of the first full week of June,
0:01:14and now it's sort of back in more of that slot.
0:01:18I'm very excited for it.
0:01:21I was sort of slightly stealing myself for the reality of having to decide if they had announced an in-person conference,
0:01:29whether I would have gone, whether that's a really complicated calculus from, you know,
0:01:33sort of the professional and business reasons to be there, but the personal and just general safety reasons,
0:01:41and I'm glad that they didn't sort of cause that to be a choice that we had to make.
0:01:45I think it's the right choice, but especially given how last year's one went, I think this is the way forward.
0:01:51Like, this is, I think it worked really well.
0:01:54I think it was a very effective tool for communicating what they needed to communicate,
0:01:58and like the reasons to have an in-person one are mostly kind of the vague, amorphous, kind of soft things,
0:02:06that it's nice to have an in-person thing.
0:02:08It maybe is a bit more noteworthy.
0:02:10It gets a little bit more energy and excitement, but it's also like super exclusive
0:02:14and means that the majority of your developer community is not actually getting the prime experience.
0:02:20You know, like in their press release for W2C, they say there's, you know, 28 million developers,
0:02:25and so like the 5,000 who are there in person, or maybe it's 10,000 who are in San Jose that day,
0:02:31if you imagine some people go for side conferences or just to be there, you know,
0:02:36it's a tiny, tiny fraction of the actual developer community, and so having an event that is online first
0:02:43and online only, I think definitely, you know, sort of, it works really well.
0:02:47I think it was very effective, and, you know, I'm very excited.
0:02:50I cleared my schedule for that week and expect to spend a lot of time, you know, watching videos,
0:02:56diving into the new stuff, and, you know, learning, and it'll be, I think, my 12th WWDC, something like that.
0:03:03I think it's like since 2009, I think was my first one, so it's, you know, it's just a tradition.
0:03:10My family knows that it's like if it's somewhere in June, there's going to be this week that I just disappear,
0:03:15and previously I would actually disappear and go to California, but now I'll just like disappear into my office
0:03:20for the week, and, you know, they'll just sort of pass food under the door to me to keep me going.
0:03:25Yeah, I honestly, there's so much about this that works better for me selfishly, like I don't have to leave the beach.
0:03:35There's so much about this that I like, and even though I do miss the social interaction,
0:03:43and I do miss like being in the auditorium for the keynote and like being part of that crowd, that was always fun,
0:03:49but the rest of the week I don't really miss, you know, and the rest of the logistics and, you know,
0:03:56spending the obscene amount of money, as you previously noted, it's an Apple Watch a day, basically, to stay there.
0:04:04And, you know, you'd be spending thousands of dollars on hotels, thousands of dollars on ticket and flight and everything,
0:04:11and it's just like, it's so much money, and it's such a big time commitment that it really pushes so many people out.
0:04:18And, you know, the limited capacity, as you mentioned, compared to the size of the developer community,
0:04:22there's no way that can ever be that inclusive just because of the nature of making people travel at all,
0:04:30let alone to an expensive place like San Jose or San Francisco. So, I'm all for the new format,
0:04:36and if I'm honest, I know this is maybe unpopular, but if I'm honest, when and if they ever return to in-person versions of this,
0:04:45I'll be a little bit disappointed to lose this.
0:04:49Yeah, and I think that's fair, and I think there was a, I think I saw something that Mark Gurman was saying,
0:04:54that their hope is to return to in-person next year, I think was something that he had heard from his various sources in Apple,
0:05:02which I think, from a general safety perspective, I can see that being a reasonable kind of like,
0:05:08"Huh, that seems about right, that hopefully by then things will settle down and be safe."
0:05:12And it isn't unrealistic to imagine that, but yes, I too will be kind of, like, I'll be happy, but also kind of sad,
0:05:19and I like that it's not a big stress in my life. Like before, they would announce, like I used to have alert systems of many kinds,
0:05:27and systems that were all trying to make sure that as soon as WWDC was announced, I was notified,
0:05:32because I would need to book a whole bunch of stuff. There was a time when it was, I also would need to buy a ticket,
0:05:39and thankfully, it's been more like, now it's just a lottery, so there's not that pressure,
0:05:43but it definitely was very kind of weird that it was announced, I put it on my calendar,
0:05:47and I just kind of moved on for the rest of the day, it wasn't like, "Okay, now I'm booking travel and hotels,
0:05:55and all the things that I previously would have to do." It's nice that it's just a thing that I can just add to my calendar,
0:06:01and look forward to, and it doesn't have the associated stresses and kind of logistical nightmares that used to be associated with it.
0:06:07Yeah, and I think, and we know now, from last year's version of it, that this format works.
0:06:13This is successful, it's going to be fine, it's not going to be the same as in person,
0:06:18and we're going to miss the social experiences at the mostly terrible restaurants and bars,
0:06:24we're going to miss hanging out in the very, very expensive hotel's lobby, and seeing people here and there,
0:06:32and we're going to miss access to in-person labs, which I do think are very valuable.
0:06:39But all of those things are things that are only applicable to a very small percentage of the developer community.
0:06:46Like when you go, and when you have in-person labs, and if you try to meet people from the community in hotel bars and stuff,
0:06:54how many of those 20-whatever million developers have access to that?
0:06:59And even if they actually go to the conference, what percentage of those 5 or 6 thousand people that are there
0:07:07will actually have that kind of interaction? And it's not zero, and that has benefited the two of us quite a lot over the years,
0:07:16but it's also not very high. And so what this is doing is, it evens out the playing field for a lot of people.
0:07:24And it forces Apple to scale what they're doing to be accessible to more of their developers.
0:07:31From what I heard, the labs were actually pretty accessible last year, like the online labs capacity was pretty good,
0:07:40and it was available to a lot of people. Certainly the conference material itself, they've been making available for years,
0:07:47with live streaming and recorded streams going up pretty fast and stuff like that.
0:07:51So that they've already pretty much solved. So I think this is a good thing.
0:07:56Yeah, I will say as someone who went to the labs last year, I went to several of them,
0:08:01I think they were actually a better experience than the in-person labs. And for two reasons primarily.
0:08:08One is that it is a dedicated, scheduled appointment that you have, which was very just helpful in terms of like,
0:08:17"I got whatever it is, I can't remember how long they were, 20, 30 minutes, something like that."
0:08:22It was a good amount of time, I think.
0:08:24You should get started.
0:08:26Yeah, exactly. I'm very good at getting a lot covered in less than 30 minutes.
0:08:30Everything you do is a 30 minute block.
0:08:33Or at least a multiple of 15.
0:08:36I think it was a 15 minute slot maybe, and then once I got a double slot, because I had a long lot of questions,
0:08:41and they had availability, and so they just sort of like double booked me.
0:08:44Yeah, well because there's two of you, that makes sense.
0:08:46But I thought the labs were the thing that I was most worried were going to be missing.
0:08:54I usually got a huge amount out of them, and I would spend hours every day when I've been in person at WBC in the labs.
0:09:02And I really liked it. It was a scheduled appointment, which was great for like,
0:09:06I'm not having the thing where I'm just waiting around, and then it's like,
0:09:09"Oh, actually you need so and so," and they're talking to someone else.
0:09:13And then you go and linger kind of in this corner over here,
0:09:16and once they talk to this person and then this person, then they come and talk to you.
0:09:20It was very much more like, when you make your booking, you put in what your questions are.
0:09:26You put in what you're interested in.
0:09:28And it seemed like every time that I went and had a lab, I was talking to the right person.
0:09:33It was never this sort of situation where, you know, like the person who built the thing in Clock Kit
0:09:38that I was having problems with or had questions about, I was talking to them.
0:09:42And it was great, and it was very time-efficient from that perspective that, you know,
0:09:47usually when I go to the labs, it's kind of like I would block off, you know, an hour to go and ask,
0:09:53you know, I'm going to spend an hour in the labs, and I'm probably actually only spending 15 minutes
0:09:57actually productively engaged with someone because the rest of it is the waiting around and things.
0:10:02So I loved that it was scheduled.
0:10:04And then also, I kind of liked that it was, like, the online format made it much more natural.
0:10:10They did screen sharing. I think it was done over WebEx or one of those kind of, like, corporate things.
0:10:15Yeah, it was WebEx.
0:10:17And it's like I was able to just, on my own computer, I shared my--there's a few times I can, like, share my screen
0:10:22and show them what the problem I'm having or see what it is, and it felt, in a weird way,
0:10:27it was better because it's almost like I'm bringing an Apple engineer into my office,
0:10:32and they're looking over my shoulder.
0:10:34And so it felt much more natural, and I felt more able to prepare to effectively be useful in a way that,
0:10:41like, it always felt like I was rushing.
0:10:44And, like, sometimes I would, you know, pull out my laptop and show them things,
0:10:47but even that, like, this can be kind of a weird and awkward interaction with, like, handing your laptop to someone you don't know.
0:10:53Like, it's just weird in a way that it felt much more, like, you know, here's my code, here's my question,
0:10:59and I was able to get my answers.
0:11:01Because in some ways, all that's left, I think, that is a benefit of in-person WWDC is the social aspect of it
0:11:07and, like, the kind of spectacle part of it, but the actual--like, that was--labs were the last thing that I thought would be where,
0:11:13you know, would have been, oh, you know, in-person, they'll be better, and it's like, I think this is better.
0:11:18And it's like, I could imagine a world where, you know, if they had an in-person WWDC,
0:11:23but they kind of continued this online version of it, you know, so it's kind of like a dual conference,
0:11:29I can imagine, where there's in-person labs and there's online labs.
0:11:32I could imagine going to the online labs from my hotel room because I like the feeling and the flow of it better,
0:11:39and I like that it's a scheduled appointment, and all of those benefits that mean that it's kind of silly in some ways,
0:11:44but I could imagine being in San Jose, having a labs appointment with some other Apple engineer,
0:11:49you know, sitting in San Jose at their computer, and, like, all that we're left with is, you know, the social part,
0:11:56which is no small thing. It's not like it's nothing, but it's definitely a hard thing to overcome.
0:12:01I mean, even I was thinking how previously they've had some, like, fitness events in the mornings of WWDC,
0:12:08where they'll have, like, a run or a yoga class or things like that, and it's like,
0:12:12I would be very surprised if this year there is not an Apple Fitness track, like the Apple Fitness Plus videos for WWDC.
0:12:21Like, it seems like a perfect fit that they should have, you know, one video, they'll have, like, four videos, you know,
0:12:27with different Apple Fitness Plus instructors that they can just sort of add to the feed,
0:12:32and it's just a special event, and it's something about, you know, it's like they could totally even replace that part of it,
0:12:37which was kind of fun, and, like, they have an entire mechanism and thing that they can do to, you know,
0:12:43bring Apple Fitness Plus and have, like, little fitness events as part of it, too.
0:12:47So, like, almost everything can be done online, and if, you know, sort of either approximated or improved by being online.
0:12:56That's a really good idea. Yeah, so I'm all for it, and I think Apple made definitely the right call in doing this this year,
0:13:03and I hope they consider it for future years.
0:13:06Yeah, and it's funny, they're continuing to do their student challenge, which used to be the student scholarship program,
0:13:13where you'd get a free ticket to WBC, so it was rather significant in terms of its actual, in terms of the monetary value,
0:13:21whereas now you get a jacket and some pins, which is nice. Certainly is not nothing,
0:13:26and I think obviously the bigger thing you get is kind of the resume builder of, you know,
0:13:31if you were one of the winning, you know, Apple Swift student challenge people,
0:13:35and my suspicion is it also puts you on Apple's radar, and there are benefits if you are a student,
0:13:40if you're someone who is eligible to participate in that, to go ahead and do it, and if not, even just for the experience of it,
0:13:46of going through kind of that experience and, you know, kind of coming up with an interesting self-conscious,
0:13:51you basically build a Swift playground file that does something cool, and you show that to Apple,
0:13:57and, like, that's never going to be a bad thing to have on your resume or to show a future employer or even to show Apple.
0:14:03Like, I've definitely heard of several people who were hired or at least offered interviews at Apple
0:14:10after they submitted their student challenges, that they're kind of a way, you know,
0:14:16it's just a way to get on Apple's radar for all the benefits that that could potentially have for your life or your career.
0:14:22Yeah, that's pretty cool. Way more than the actual, like, you know, $60 jacket and pin set.
0:14:28I mean, it is much more exclusive, I will give you that. Previously the jackets were given to, you know, a few thousand people,
0:14:36and now you've got to imagine, you know, the people who win these jackets, it's a few hundred people at most,
0:14:41distributed all over the world. So if you do have one of those jackets or one of those pin sets,
0:14:46it is much more exclusive, but perhaps not as significant in terms of its monetary value.
0:14:54You can join the tens of people who try to sell WBC jackets on eBay for $500.
0:15:01That is always a thing.
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0:16:25So what I want to talk about in addition to the WBC announcement this week
0:16:30is a change that I think I'm going to have to make.
0:16:34I'm kind of waffling over how and when to do it in Overcast.
0:16:38The two biggest podcast players in the world are Apple Podcasts by a pretty big margin, followed by Spotify.
0:16:48And Spotify, when they introduced podcast support, I don't know, maybe a year or two ago, whenever that was,
0:16:54they didn't use the word subscribe to talk about the action of adding a podcast to your collection
0:17:02in a way that automatically gives you every new episode.
0:17:05They used the word follow.
0:17:07Now at that point, any other podcast app used the word subscribe because it was based on RSS feeds
0:17:13and RSS news readers that have existed for many, many years.
0:17:17And the terminology used there was always subscribe.
0:17:19And the action was you were subscribing to an RSS feed.
0:17:22And so in podcasts, they always use the term subscribe to describe, you know,
0:17:27subscribing to a feed, adding this feed to your specialized RSS reader that happens to be a podcast player.
0:17:31So Spotify used the word follow, which was much more inspired by modern social media things
0:17:38where following an account shows you every new thing from that account by default, which makes sense.
0:17:44It's just not how podcasting was done.
0:17:47And the big news now, you know, it's just Spotify had done it, oh well.
0:17:50But Apple Podcasts has switched their terminology from subscribe to follow in the iOS 14.5 beta,
0:17:57which is probably going to be released any day now.
0:17:59So the biggest two podcast players in the world, which together represent probably about three quarters of the market,
0:18:06are going to use the word follow instead of subscribe.
0:18:10And so I think this means that all the rest of us have to switch too.
0:18:14I think that means every other podcast player is going to have to switch
0:18:18and definitely, you know, overcast trying to appeal to a wide audience.
0:18:22And I was wondering kind of what you thought about this because, I mean, and there's two different ways to look at it.
0:18:28Number one is like from some point of view I think it makes sense because the word subscribe,
0:18:36people tend to think that means pay and that probably holds people back.
0:18:40And I've heard, you know, anecdotes here and there of people saying,
0:18:43"Oh, my so and so friend or relative thought that podcasts were all paid because they thought they had to subscribe to them."
0:18:52And I'm sure the big companies have done like focus groups and surveys and stuff
0:18:55to actually get some data behind this kind of theory.
0:18:58Another theory is that Apple is going to launch a paid podcast premium subscription service
0:19:04and they're going to need the word subscribe for that and therefore they have to like free it up by changing the other word to follow.
0:19:11And that may or may not be true but whether or not that's true I don't think has any bearing on whether people will start expecting this to be the word everywhere.
0:19:19And so my theory is that I should change as soon as Apple does because people will start expecting that
0:19:27even though it will probably confuse and possibly annoy large parts of my existing user base, which is a tricky balance.
0:19:36But like do I optimize for my existing users or do I optimize for what people expect if they're coming from the other 75% of the podcast market?
0:19:47It reminds me in a weird way of I remember a while back where Apple changed in the App Store, they changed from free to get.
0:19:56Oh yeah.
0:19:57It was because it was like, which is the term you use for acquiring something has meaning, has power, is important.
0:20:07In that case they were making it clear that free apps weren't free, that they were free initially and then you'd have in-app purchases and things.
0:20:15And so they didn't want to, I think they were actually getting in regulatory trouble for saying it's free but then it's not free.
0:20:21But I think in this case it is certainly an interesting thing and I think a lot of it comes down to also just the way that people communicate.
0:20:31Because I think while there is I'm sure some confusion about subscribe having costing money, I think of one of the most popular,
0:20:38probably the most popular media platform in the world, YouTube, which is constantly full of like and subscribe.
0:20:43And it's not like and subscribe for money, it's just subscribe.
0:20:46And I don't think people are confused about that in that context.
0:20:50And so I think this particular move I think feels a bit more from Apple's perspective.
0:20:54The one thing that makes sense to me is that they're creating space for essentially differentiating between for-pay podcasts and free podcasts,
0:21:04things that you can just freely subscribe to or add to your subscription list.
0:21:09And they're creating that space and in some ways Spotify created an obvious place for them to do that.
0:21:15And so I think what is going to be interesting is are podcast producers going to start switching to that terminology themselves?
0:21:25And they probably will because if the vast majority of where you'll actually go and sign up for something,
0:21:31if they're going to say, "Oh, follow us in Apple Podcasts," like if that's the phrase that you're going to hear in the advertisement for a new podcast that's launching,
0:21:42they always say it's like, "Right now it's subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts," is a phrase I hear many times on a podcast.
0:21:49Then if they're going to change it to "follow us wherever you get it," then people are going to go looking for the follow button.
0:21:57Or I think something that I was just looking at Overcast in preparation for this.
0:22:03And I think what's also interesting is that you currently, in your main subscribe thing, you already call it "add podcast."
0:22:12That's what you have as the header at the top of your subscription page.
0:22:17And in some ways I think that's a much clearer term, I think "add" rather than "follow" or "subscribe."
0:22:24I think "add" is actually a very good word there, and I think it fits with the, you have a plus button in the top corner, plus addition.
0:22:32I think there's a consistency there, and it kind of also I think gives you that flexibility to not necessarily be tying yourself to one or the other.
0:22:40So I think getting away from "subscribe" I think does make sense.
0:22:45I think subscription is increasingly becoming, and especially because you offer a subscription inside of your application,
0:22:52the place that you also say "subscribe" is if you want to be an Overcast premium person,
0:22:58then you have "would you like a subscription," and you're using that term for two different things inside of the own app.
0:23:07So changing it, I think, in general would have been a useful thing.
0:23:10And for me, I think "add" is the way to go.
0:23:13I think "follow" feels strange to me.
0:23:16I don't know why, but I don't follow a podcast, but I could see adding it.
0:23:20I'm adding it to my list, and so that makes sense.
0:23:26But I definitely do think it's one of those tricky places where it's a powerful word,
0:23:31because what you don't want is for a user to be going in your app, they see, "Oh, there they go, they hit plus."
0:23:40They see the daily, they've heard of that, that sounds great.
0:23:44And then they see "subscribe."
0:23:46And you don't want them to not push that button because they're worried it's going to pop up a pay sheet or something.
0:23:53And so giving it a less scary name doesn't seem like it costs you very much,
0:23:57but potentially it gives you a benefit of get one more user who, and it may even be a small percentage,
0:24:05but that one extra person who's like, "Let me try this out," and then they do, and then it works out better for them.
0:24:11And then now you have someone who's listening inside of Overcast, which is great and exactly what you want.
0:24:16So that's, I think, where you are. I think what you're saying makes sense, but I think it's only one place you'd have to change it,
0:24:24mostly, in Overcast. It's not like you have a complicated sort of thing where this terminology comes up over and over.
0:24:31So I would just change these. For me, I would change the subscribe button to add and move on.
0:24:36Well, the problem is there's this, and first of all, the actual cost of changing things.
0:24:41I'm not too concerned about that because, yeah, it's just me. The app is, it's a big app, but I'm not changing Photoshop here.
0:24:50It's not that big. And I think it is good to have the right terminology even if there is some work required to get there.
0:25:01Like, for instance, I was recently doing a whole bunch of database migration stuff for the first time in a couple of years, probably.
0:25:07And I was able, because of the new version of MySQL I was using, I was able to change all of the replication terminology
0:25:15from the old and pretty bad master-slave terminology to the new source replica terminology.
0:25:21And so my policy was every time I was editing any kind of script that was touching the database that had the old terminology,
0:25:26I would change to the new one. And that added a little bit of extra work, but it wasn't that much. It was a few minutes.
0:25:30And then it was done. And I'm really happy I did that because every time I would see the old terminology, I would really cringe and just kind of be ashamed of that.
0:25:37And so in this case, you know, obviously this has different reasons, but in this case, you know, I think I should get there,
0:25:45get to whatever the newest terminology should be here because that's what everyone else is going to be doing,
0:25:49and that's what my customers are going to expect, especially my new customers.
0:25:53But there are some areas where it's a little bit odd, but in some ways it was always odd.
0:25:58So for instance, the weirdest case for me to deal with is a podcast that you have added to your Overcast account,
0:26:05but that you are not subscribing to all new episodes or following.
0:26:09So there is that toggle on the podcast settings page for each podcast that says "subscribe to all new episodes."
0:26:14Now this distinction I think already confuses people, and I think I already need to rethink it,
0:26:18but what do I do with that wording, like maybe just add all new episodes,
0:26:24and then what do I do with podcasts that you have on your account, that exist in your account,
0:26:30but that you are not following or auto-adding or subscribed to?
0:26:34And right now they all just sit there dimmed out in the bottom of the list once they're empty,
0:26:38and it kind of sucks, and I've been wanting to rethink that for a while, and maybe this is a separate discussion.
0:26:43But it is, like there are areas of the app like that that I have to consider, but I think you're right.
0:26:49Add is a good word to use in many of these contexts, but it might not matter if add is a better word
0:26:57if Apple Podcasts and Spotify are using follow. I might have to just match what they are using,
0:27:03just so people aren't confused.
0:27:05Sure. I mean, because I think what's tricky, obviously, is that phrase of like,
0:27:11"subscribe to new episodes." It's like, "follow to new episodes" doesn't make any sense.
0:27:15That feels really, like follow is, in that case, subscribe works better. I think add does work there.
0:27:23But ultimately, this may just be something that's overcome by events, but I think you'll still have flexibility about this
0:27:32in terms of, if they call it follow, I don't know if you have to, but I think getting away from subscribe
0:27:38is the thing that is the bigger change. But yeah, it is kind of a weird thing, and it's interesting
0:27:44because it deals with these kind of historical roots of something that, you know, podcasting is a strange technology
0:27:51in some ways because it grew up from a very basic web technology.
0:27:55And one of its great strengths is that it is this simple, open kind of platform.
0:28:03And once it starts to become something, like you were saying, even just a phrase you used earlier,
0:28:07where it was like, when you subscribe to something, you see all of the new episodes,
0:28:10you imagine a world where podcasting isn't that and is more algorithmic and is more, like when I think of follow,
0:28:16if I was using an overcast, if I was following something, in some ways you kind of increasingly have an expectation
0:28:24that you're seeing an algorithmically driven timeline, which is different than what you would see
0:28:29if you have an overcast or in most podcast plans, but I think it's very similar to how Spotify does it,
0:28:34where it isn't the sense of, like, when I open overcast, all I want is a reverse chronological list of every episode,
0:28:41of every show that is on my subscription list, and increasingly that's not what you get.
0:28:47Increasingly, I imagine it's somehow algorithmically generated that, oh, you listen to this show at this time,
0:28:51or I think this show fits better for whatever reason or is being boosted by something.
0:28:56So there's a lot of external things pushing on you there, but I definitely do think they are kind of forcing your hand,
0:29:03and you're going to have to make some change. Whatever that is is not easy, but it's something you're going to have to navigate.
0:29:10Yeah, it's like, and I don't love that I have to do the amount of work to do this and to think about it and test it and everything,
0:29:17but I do actually think, like, oh, this is a good point, we should have dropped this word a while ago
0:29:22because it means different things to most people, and so to go from subscribe to either add or follow,
0:29:29I think will be an improvement.
0:29:31Absolutely.
0:29:33Thank you for listening, everybody, and we will talk to you in two weeks.
0:29:36Bye.
0:29:37[ Silence ]