0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:04I'm Mark Orment. And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes,
0:00:08so let's get started. So this last week,
0:00:12was it last week? I don't even know what is time. Recently,
0:00:16I submitted a substantial update to WatchSmith,
0:00:20my kind of like super customizable Apple Watch application.
0:00:24And it sort of brought to the end a period
0:00:28of work that has been certainly unique in
0:00:32not for a good way, you know, sort of recently, where it's like I think it's a good
0:00:36update. I spent a lot of time, probably about three or four months of work, working on it.
0:00:40But, and I was, you know, I'm proud of the work that I was able
0:00:44to do, but man, the actual process of getting it done
0:00:48and bringing it to this point was rough. And I think
0:00:52it is easy and I think common in
0:00:56kind of the social media, podcast, whatever kind of, these
0:01:00kind of communication things that you very often kind of like hear,
0:01:04you hear the good and you sort of hide the bad. And this is
0:01:08the classic thing of like you'll see. It's like when you see, you only see people on Instagram
0:01:12like being happy and on vacation and everything's wonderful. You don't see the
0:01:16you know, the tears, when everyone's crying in the long road trip
0:01:20when the car, you know, the car gets a flat tire and things. Like that's just, there's a lack
0:01:24of sort of balance to a lot of those things. And I think that's often
0:01:28the case. And this particular update for me was something that I think was very difficult
0:01:32and I think there's certainly given broadly where we are in the world and what's
0:01:36going on, it was something that I think is good for us to talk about
0:01:40and something to just sort of be transparent about. That it isn't always
0:01:44good and happy and sometimes updates don't go the way you want them to and sometimes
0:01:48the process of getting there and our ability to work, our ability to focus,
0:01:52like, can be impacted by so many things. And for me,
0:01:56recently, obviously, like this is about a year into, you know, a global
0:02:00pandemic that has created tremendous amounts of anxiety, uncertainty
0:02:04and complexity into our lives. And, you know, it sort of
0:02:08creates a huge number of mental health challenges and just even just sort of
0:02:12attention challenges of knowing what to think about and not having the sense
0:02:16like being able to close out the world and focus in on some code.
0:02:20It's like sometimes that's great and sometimes it's like I love it and it's this welcome escape
0:02:24that's really cool to kind of be able to, you know, if I can get into that place
0:02:28it's wonderful to shut out the world and what's going on. But sometimes it's just like
0:02:32painfully frustrating and I'm just like trying to, like I'm just sitting there in Xcode trying to
0:02:36do something and I just can't because my mind's racing around thinking
0:02:40about other things. So, yeah, it's like that's sort of where I am but I think it's something that's important
0:02:44for us to talk about. Yeah, totally. I mean, I think
0:02:48there's a few different angles on this obviously. I mean, first of all, starting with
0:02:52the Watch Smith, first of all, congratulations on a big new release. That's important.
0:02:56Thank you. You know, it is important to celebrate
0:03:00when we have big releases. I learned that from you.
0:03:04You know, because we've talked in the past, you know, both on and
0:03:08off the air about like trying to, like when we ship a major new version or the first version
0:03:12of a new app, like to actually try to like take time out and celebrate our achievement
0:03:16because we're doing all these non or intangible things that have
0:03:20no like real world representation really. And so if you can like
0:03:24congratulate yourself somehow, you know, whatever that means for you,
0:03:28you know, celebrating with your family or whatever, like that's important. And so, you know, but
0:03:32anyway, so congratulations on that. And I think part of
0:03:36a motivational challenge, even outside of the context of
0:03:40a global pandemic, which I'll get to next, but even outside of the context of that,
0:03:44dealing with like shipping a
0:03:48major update as opposed to a major 1.0, the
0:03:52updates never get the attention the 1.0
0:03:56gets. They never have the reward or the feeling of completion
0:04:00that the 1.0 gets. And they usually
0:04:04the amount of attention they get usually does not reflect the amount of effort that you had to
0:04:08put into it. Because by definition, as an
0:04:12app goes through its life cycle and matures, the kind of work
0:04:16you have to do gets like less flashy and more
0:04:20boring typically over time. It's like, you know, you have to like tackle technical
0:04:24debt or, you know, like stability or quality
0:04:28problems or usability problems. And those kind of things
0:04:32usually don't really have like massive
0:04:36wow factor for the users. It's more of, you're more like taking
0:04:40away problems or making things 20% better
0:04:44or something. But that's very different than like the big bang wow
0:04:48factor of something that's brand new or like a major
0:04:52new feature. You might have one or two of those in the release, but most of the time that you spent on
0:04:56the release is probably doing other stuff. And so that's definitely a problem
0:05:00of like the motivational crash. But I think looking at the
0:05:04bigger picture here of the world we're in right now,
0:05:08you know, we've both been fortunate enough not
0:05:12to have lived through any of the major world wars. They predated us
0:05:16and we've been fortunate enough to not have any like major
0:05:20warfare happening in the places we live.
0:05:24That's, you know, we're very fortunate from that. And
0:05:28I think the feelings that we all have now during COVID and
0:05:32during this year of constant anxiety
0:05:36and turmoil, I would venture a guess feels like
0:05:40a small war. Like it's not, it's different in a lot of ways obviously.
0:05:44And it's not as bad in a lot of ways obviously. But
0:05:48I think you can kind of trace like the general mood
0:05:52of the society and like the kind of like
0:05:56constant baseline stress level. I think, again I don't
0:06:00think it's as bad as a war, but I think it is in like the foothills
0:06:04of those mountains of like, you know, it's the same kind of feelings.
0:06:08And to have that kind of anxiety
0:06:12for a year, and it's not over yet,
0:06:16you know, it's been a little over a year roughly, but
0:06:20we're not, and I think the end is in sight, but it's not
0:06:24over yet. To have that for this long, I think it messes you up
0:06:28and, you know, as bad as I am about talking about wars, I'm
0:06:32even worse as a psychologist, but I think it
0:06:36certainly messes with our brain chemistry and our mood and our, like, just our
0:06:40mental health to a large degree. To the point where like, you know,
0:06:44like when you have massive adrenaline flowing for
0:06:48some reason, if something scares you or makes you nervous or makes you excited, afterwards
0:06:52you get this big crash and you get really just tired and exhausted
0:06:56because your body just dumped all the adrenaline into your system during the stressful
0:07:00thing and now you just have none left. You have no energy
0:07:04left to give. I think to a large degree, that's
0:07:08happening to us. Like, we have, we've had a year of
0:07:12low level to mid level anxiety
0:07:16and even if you set aside all the disruption, which we'll get to next, but just
0:07:20the anxiety about it alone, having a year of that
0:07:24is, you know, just depleting us of so much
0:07:28of our energy and our ability to focus and do anything non-essential.
0:07:32It's certainly, you know, it's certainly going to have a lot of mental health ramifications
0:07:36for a lot of people for a long time. And it's very hard to
0:07:40see that, like, when you're in it, but like once the adrenaline
0:07:44starts fading and we start solving things, like, I think a lot of
0:07:48us want to, you know, once widespread vaccination has been achieved, which I think
0:07:52we're actually very impressively on the way to, at least in the US, but
0:07:56you know, once that has been achieved, I think we're going to have like two
0:08:00conflicting feelings. We're going to be like, first of all, we're going to want to, like, go to a restaurant and go
0:08:04party with our friends and, you know, do all those things, go on vacation, whatever.
0:08:08But I think we're also just going to be so exhausted from
0:08:12the crash after all this stress. And I think it's important to
0:08:16expect that and to forgive ourselves for that in advance
0:08:20if it hasn't happened yet, because that's going to happen. And
0:08:24we're stuck with that no matter what. And that's a part of our process.
0:08:28That's a part of us coming down from this awful period when we
0:08:32can finally relax about it. And all of that
0:08:36is compounded and made much worse
0:08:40by the massive amount of lifestyle disruption
0:08:44and work disruption that this has also caused.
0:08:48You know, most of our kids haven't been in school. Many of us
0:08:52have increased workloads or increased burdens
0:08:56because of the changes that have been put in place by society.
0:09:00We're probably doing all or most of our work in the home.
0:09:04Those of us who are lucky enough to still have work. Many people are facing
0:09:08financial problems. Many people are just very stressed and very, you know,
0:09:12cooped up in their homes. They're putting pressure on their families, on their relationships.
0:09:16If they have kids, then you have the school situation to deal with, which is
0:09:20a huge thing. And so there's all this additional stress,
0:09:24all the additional overhead. And all of this has made it so hard to work
0:09:28for the last year. For so many people. That hasn't
0:09:32escaped us either. You know, we're app developers. We're very fortunate that we can
0:09:36do this job from home most of the time and it's fine.
0:09:40And the app development market seemingly mostly wasn't hurt
0:09:44as a market demand factor by all this.
0:09:48But all those factors still affect us. All those
0:09:52mental health and pragmatic factors and
0:09:56your changing environment, that all still affects us.
0:10:00And it affects people in different ways depending on their situation and their mental health and everything.
0:10:04But you and I are not immune to this. I have had a terrible
0:10:08year for productivity. And I think that's
0:10:12okay. If you look back at major world
0:10:16problems and everything, nobody looks back at the time they were alive
0:10:20during a war and says, "Wow, I wish I had gotten more work done that year."
0:10:24You can't focus on that. And in retrospect, you realize
0:10:28that doesn't really matter. We just had to get through it and hope everyone gets through it okay.
0:10:32And I think that's how this is. We're getting through this year.
0:10:36We've gotten through year one. Hopefully there isn't a year two.
0:10:40And we all have to give each other a break
0:10:44and cut each other some slack and realize everyone's going through
0:10:48an increased stress time and hopefully come out of it okay.
0:10:52And so looking back on the year for you and for me, I've gotten
0:10:56way less done than I wanted to. Way less.
0:11:00But I also have to realize I have to forgive myself because
0:11:04this was not normal. This is possibly a once in a lifetime
0:11:08kind of year. It's okay to have gotten
0:11:12very little done. And it's okay to have now to have a huge
0:11:16amount of trouble getting yourself into work mode. Because I'm the same way.
0:11:20I still now have a huge amount of trouble working.
0:11:24I have so much trouble focusing and getting myself started and plowing
0:11:28through anything of any complexity. But I have to just realize, you know what,
0:11:32cut myself some slack and forgive myself.
0:11:36So sometimes I think the hardest part for me is that sense of
0:11:40because what you and I do is ostensibly
0:11:44very straightforward in the sense that I go
0:11:48and I sit down at a computer and I push some buttons.
0:11:52That's what my job is in terms of it's not physically difficult or
0:11:56physically demanding. And it's all in my head.
0:12:00And I think that's where so often the mental and
0:12:04cognitive challenges are so easy
0:12:08for me to be hard on myself about them. Because it feels like it should be, well, why can't I
0:12:12just focus? And you just kind of want to will yourself to do it because in
0:12:16many ways it is an act of will. It's coming from my brain.
0:12:20But I think that makes it kind of, that's
0:12:24where the challenge is. Because most of the difficulty that I felt this
0:12:28past year is not physical, thankfully, in terms of
0:12:32the nature of what has happened to me is that I've had to stay home and be
0:12:36worried. And that's physically fine
0:12:40in terms of I'm just as healthy as I was a year ago
0:12:44for the most part. But in terms of mental health, it's like
0:12:48all of the difficulty and all of the challenges is up in my
0:12:52brain. And it makes me think of it in a way that's like
0:12:56how if I was running, if I just went out my door right now
0:13:00and just started running, I could run for a while, probably,
0:13:04before at some point I'll just fall over.
0:13:08And I'll kind of reach the end or I'll have to start walking or whatever that is.
0:13:12And I feel like in some ways, for me, and I felt this in a weird way
0:13:16more in maybe the last three months when I was working on WatchSmith than I did in the
0:13:20preceding nine months. It's like I just hit that point where
0:13:24suddenly I had to go from running to walking. For whatever reason
0:13:28my brain was just like, "No, I can't
0:13:32keep doing this. I just need to sort of
0:13:36throttle back and take it easy." And it's
0:13:40a weird feeling because at the same time I know
0:13:44what it is to be productive. I know what it is to be able to
0:13:48put myself into the zone and be working with great
0:13:52productivity and with great creativity and I know what that
0:13:56feels like. And I think in some ways knowing what that feels like
0:14:00makes it hard when it's something that isn't there. That isn't this thing
0:14:04that I feel like I can just reach for. And to
0:14:08belabor my metaphor, it's that sense of if I'd gone and just run a marathon
0:14:12and then someone says, "I
0:14:16need you to just run for another hundred yards." I'd
0:14:20want to try and I feel like I probably could, but I'd have to be way slower or I'd only
0:14:24be able to run for fifty yards before I'm just like, "No, I'm at the end." And it's that sense
0:14:28of it isn't that I don't know how or that I couldn't run, but it's like that capacity
0:14:32is spent in some ways. And it's a really complicated
0:14:36thing when it feels like it's just in your brain.
0:14:40I should just be able to sort of turn it on or turn it off.
0:14:44There's nothing physically wrong with me, but that's that challenge of mental health, I think,
0:14:48where it's like motivation and especially I think creativity
0:14:52is something too. I feel like I'm in a place where I can
0:14:56do the mechanical parts of my job with reasonable
0:15:00consistency. There are parts of what I do that are like when I'm
0:15:04just doing my accounting. I just need to go in and I need to download my
0:15:08transactions from my bank and put it into my QuickBooks file and do the
0:15:12stuff. It's very mechanical. Those things feel
0:15:16fine, but it's the things that I need to be creative with and I need to
0:15:20like, this morning I was dealing with one of those weird edge case bugs where I
0:15:24was hitting a limit in iOS and I needed to work out a way around it. And it's like
0:15:28coming up with a creative solution to work around a bug is often something
0:15:32that I love. It's often something that I think part of what makes me good at my job is being
0:15:36good at coming up with weird sort of sideways solutions to problems.
0:15:40And it was really interesting where it's just like, I feel like I'm doing this with a
0:15:44you know, it's like I'm doing that running, but I'm running it with like a weight vest on. It's just harder to
0:15:48do it and everything just feels sort of more challenging than
0:15:52I know that it can feel. And so it's like it's just a
0:15:56tough place to be.
0:16:02If you have a brilliant idea that you think is going to change the world, Spokes knows
0:16:06that whether you're pitching investors or selling products or services, a compelling story
0:16:10is the difference between your business struggling or thriving. In a crowded
0:16:14market, the best story wins. And Spokes helps you tell
0:16:18your best story. Spokes gives lean and hungry businesses
0:16:22the boost of a full service media agency at a scale that works for you.
0:16:26Spokes helps you create communication services within your budget. Their founding team
0:16:30has decades of experience in tech, news, government, public relations,
0:16:34and marketing. They can amplify your story so your business can go to new
0:16:38places. So if you're the next college kid who forgets a thumb drive on your way out the door
0:16:42leading to an idea to sync files in the cloud that will revolutionize the way we use computers
0:16:46or something like that, whatever you're doing, Spokes will polish and promote
0:16:50your story. So go to Spokes.agency and Spokes is spelled
0:16:54S-P-O-X. So Spokes, S-P-O-X dot agency
0:16:58slash radar 21 and mention this podcast for a 25%
0:17:02discount. That's Spokes dot agency slash radar 21
0:17:06and mention under the radar for a 25% discount. Our thanks
0:17:10to Spokes Agency for their support of this show and all of Relay FM.
0:17:14So yeah, I think what you just said
0:17:18about starting up and kind of stalling or it's an increased
0:17:22load, like I felt a lot of that too in a combination
0:17:26of the time that we're working in right now and also where
0:17:30I'm at with Overcast right now. In addition to all the
0:17:34burden of the world and of whatever
0:17:38home, increased difficulties and overhead and stuff like that,
0:17:42I'm at a place in Overcast where
0:17:46it's a mature app and I want to do big things with it.
0:17:50And the big things I want to do often require making large under the hood
0:17:54changes or things like server work that
0:17:58are just like huge motivation killers or at least they
0:18:02dramatically increase the cost or the burden of
0:18:06making a change. And I went through a bunch of server migrations earlier
0:18:10this spring which as we talked about some of which were pretty rough and that's a
0:18:14motivation killer. A lot of the things I want to do require
0:18:18me to bring my old code base into new languages or new
0:18:22APIs and that requires a ton of work. A lot of what I want to do
0:18:26is prohibitive because I have
0:18:30a large existing app with a large existing user base. And there are certain changes that I'd
0:18:34be interested in making or trying but because it would be pretty different
0:18:38from what I have now and that would just anger so many people and I've
0:18:42seen other podcast apps try to make certain changes and they
0:18:46do not, they get raked over the coals for it because
0:18:50podcast has become part of someone's major daily workflow and when you change
0:18:54the way they work, even if you think it's a change for the better, there's going to be a large portion of your user base
0:18:58who disagrees. And so I'm like, in addition to the
0:19:02world's burden right now, a lot of the things that I've tried to do
0:19:06have either been like spinning my wheels or it's like starting in fifth gear.
0:19:10You try to do something and you're just like, oh no, to do this I have to do all
0:19:14of that first. And so you rip out all that or you
0:19:18make some giant migration or you refactored all this stuff or whatever it
0:19:22is and at the end of the day then I have an update that took
0:19:26me four months to write and it has like no new features.
0:19:30And that's also very hard for motivation. So for me it's
0:19:34been the combination of the world and that.
0:19:38And as part of my ability to try, or as part of my efforts
0:19:42to try to deal with the world, I have made changes
0:19:46to my life to prioritize my own mental and physical health more than before.
0:19:50So on the mental side, I moved to the beach.
0:19:54I'm so happy here. Like winter is usually very hard for me.
0:19:58I get very depressed in the winter. I'm really not a winter person.
0:20:02This winter was not so bad because I love it here and it's different, and winter's
0:20:06better here. And it's still winter, it's still really cold, but I just
0:20:10like this place a lot more and the conditions are a little bit different, a little bit more mild, a lot more sun.
0:20:14So it was just a very pleasant
0:20:18winter for me and being at the beach now and being here in this fall and
0:20:22the spring, it's amazing that this place that I would only be able to be at due
0:20:26to school for two months a year and I would wait all the
0:20:30other ten months. I was like counting down the days to those two months and now I'm just
0:20:34here all the time. And I couldn't be happier about that.
0:20:38That being said, being at the beach makes certain things harder.
0:20:42My mail doesn't come to my house. I have to go
0:20:46to the post office every couple of days and pick it up because of where we
0:20:50are. It's an odd place. And packages, same thing, I have to
0:20:54walk a wagon to a boat that's a half mile away
0:20:58and then walk it back. And that's how I get packages.
0:21:02So certain parts of the life have overhead. If I want to go
0:21:06grocery shopping in the middle of winter, I have to go walk that half mile with a wagon,
0:21:10go onto a boat for 45 minutes, and then get into my car,
0:21:14drive somewhere, go shopping, go back to the car, put everything in the wagon, bring it back to the boat,
0:21:18come back. So certain things take way more overhead.
0:21:22And so certain common errands take more time. But I'm also happier.
0:21:26And on the physical health side, I've increased
0:21:30my workouts. I'm now doing them more days a week than I was
0:21:34before with a trainer. And I'm trying to get more exercise in other ways as well.
0:21:38And I'm trying to eat healthier and cook more and go out to restaurants less,
0:21:42which that's not hard right now, but in general.
0:21:46And so all of those things take time. And those blow little
0:21:50holes in the day. And in addition, all the regular
0:21:54COVID stuff, there's lots of holes blown in my day anyway for just things like,
0:21:58"Oh, we have this need and we have to go get a test or
0:22:02the vaccine, thank God." Or, you know, whatever. Or, you know, there's been a scare
0:22:06at school and so they shut down the school for a few days. And then we have to deal with that
0:22:10and deal with home school stuff. So there's all these little holes being punched throughout
0:22:14the day as a result of either the world we live in right now or of
0:22:18my own efforts to make myself physically or mentally happier to get
0:22:22through all this. But all of those come at the cost of work time.
0:22:26Those all come especially at the cost of contiguous blocks of work time.
0:22:30So I might have four hours in the middle of a day to work, but it has
0:22:34ten holes punched in those four hours. And so it's hard to get into any kind of
0:22:38big coding job. So that's all been adding up for me and it's made it
0:22:42a really hard year. And sometimes I do really feel
0:22:46guilt about that. I feel like I should have gotten more done this year. And I feel
0:22:50a lot of pressure, mostly from myself. I mean, my users are very kind
0:22:54and mostly are not pressuring me. But it's mostly just myself pressuring myself. Like, I
0:22:58feel like I should have gotten a lot more done. I feel like I should be getting more done now.
0:23:02And I always feel like I'm working on the wrong thing. But the time to
0:23:06work on the right thing never seems to come.
0:23:10And I feel like it's the same way. I mean, it's weird. I have the
0:23:14I put a lot of burden on myself because
0:23:18in a weird way, I feel like my reputation is that I'm super productive
0:23:22and I'm like, Mr. Productivity launched 56 apps.
0:23:26That's who I am. And I think so. When I'm not productive,
0:23:30I often feel like doubly I put on myself that I'm like, who are you?
0:23:34You're the guy who's supposed to be able to
0:23:38make all the things and you're not able to do that.
0:23:42I definitely put that on myself. It's not like other people are telling me that. But it's
0:23:46hard. But yeah, and then all the things we do, I've been
0:23:50trying very hard to be consistent with working out or be consistent with a lot of the
0:23:54other things that I know are important right now to
0:23:58and that honestly are also helpful with things like mental health. I think I'm
0:24:02confident that I feel better and my mental health is better when I work out more
0:24:06or when I eat better and sleep better. All those things that are
0:24:10easy to let slip.
0:24:14But I know that it's that consistently showing up to those things.
0:24:18And even if some days it's like my workout is not great or my workout
0:24:22is just like, I'm here and I'm doing something and I'm not doing nothing.
0:24:26And it's like being able to hopefully just, I think I've gotten better at being like, that's okay.
0:24:30Like for a while I would want to like, if I'm going to work out, I want to feel like I worked out.
0:24:34And it's like, now I want to work out. I just want to do it. And
0:24:38I feel like in some ways, the weird thing I've found with work, and this is not like
0:24:42I have a solution. This is a strategy that sometimes is helpful.
0:24:46I just realized in most things in life, it's really all we have.
0:24:50It's like a series of strategies that are sometimes helpful. And it's like all I have is just
0:24:54keep showing up. That's really all we can do.
0:24:58It's like you're just, not in a slavish way. Some days
0:25:02I'm just like, I don't have it today. And I just get up and walk away
0:25:06and go for a walk outside or whatever it is. But in a sense that
0:25:10you just got to keep trying.
0:25:14Sometimes it just gives yourself the opportunity that sometimes you'll
0:25:18hit it right. For whatever reason,
0:25:22things will align and you'll be able to get some good work done. And you can celebrate that and be glad of it.
0:25:26And sometimes you won't. And sometimes you just have to forgive yourself for that and just
0:25:30be flexible. But all I've been able to find in the last year
0:25:34is that sense of if you just keep showing up,
0:25:38it's better than giving up, I guess.
0:25:42And that works in the same way with so many parts of our lives.
0:25:46And that's sort of the only thing that I've found to kind of get me through in some ways
0:25:50is that feeling that if I can keep showing up, then it'll get
0:25:54better. And it's like the outside world will hopefully get better.
0:25:58That my work will get better. My motivation, your motivation,
0:26:02it's unlikely to be like this forever.
0:26:06I think it's in some ways the strange thing of you and I have both been
0:26:10independent developers for a decade or something.
0:26:14And I've gone through these cycles for, you know, there have been periods where it's like things are
0:26:18going great. There have been periods when things are going really not so great. And it's like
0:26:22the longer perspective value you have, I think a better sense of
0:26:26the cyclical nature of these things definitely becomes more visible.
0:26:30Yeah. And then finally to close out this week,
0:26:34or this two weeks, I'd like to maybe
0:26:38give like a public service announcement. How all of us are feeling right now,
0:26:42you know, all of us out there, we've had our own burdens
0:26:46and stresses and challenges throughout this time. Everyone has had
0:26:50burdens and challenges and stresses throughout this time. And so when you are
0:26:54dealing with someone else, when you need someone else
0:26:58to do something for you, whether it's like, you know, somebody
0:27:02who needs to do work for you, or somebody who like, you're waiting on something
0:27:06from them, or even your bosses or whoever it might be that like, you know, other people
0:27:10in your family, any other people you deal with in your life, cut everyone some slack
0:27:14right now. And continue cutting them some slack for a while.
0:27:18Like a year at least. Because we're all exhausted.
0:27:22We're all stressed. We're all tired. We've all gone through a lot of, you know, stuff during this.
0:27:26And so try to give everyone a break around you.
0:27:30Because whatever you've been faced with, you know,
0:27:34they've had their own stuff too. And everyone's trying the best we can.
0:27:38And just kind of, in general, like, cut society some slack
0:27:42right now. And, you know, lay off of people as much as you can.
0:27:46Give people a break. Give people slack. Give people the benefit of the doubt.
0:27:50Because everyone needs that right now. And I hope for your sake, everyone out there,
0:27:54I hope everyone does that for you. And I certainly hope that we can,
0:27:58you know, help guide everyone in that direction.
0:28:02Kindness and respect never go out of style.
0:28:06The whole controversial thing is I think we should be giving people that kind of slack all the time. But, you know, we'll save that discussion for another time.
0:28:12Turns out, you know, kindness and compassion and giving people a break and assuming the best instead of the worst of people,
0:28:18that's actually kind of good all the time. But, well,
0:28:22I know that that's a reach for a lot of people. So we'll start with, in the wake of a global pandemic,
0:28:26give people a break. We'll move into the, you know,
0:28:30kindness forever angle a different time.
0:28:34After people have caught us a break on this one.
0:28:38Well, it's like, "If this was helpful to you," I think it was a little
0:28:42group therapy session for me and for you too,
0:28:46Margot. If that's what it was for you, then know that you're not alone.
0:28:50Because I think that's also helpful. It makes me think of the line at the end of
0:28:54it's like being alone is far worse than
0:28:58just being, you know, going through something difficult is always bad, but going through it
0:29:02alone is doubly so. Oh, yes. Yes. So, anyway,
0:29:06we're here for you everyone. And best of luck getting through all this.
0:29:10Care for yourself, care for others, and we will talk to you in two weeks. Bye.
0:29:14[ Silence ]