Under the Radar

193: Unproductivity


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04   I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05   And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06   Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10   So as we're recording this, it's sort of the middle of June in 2020.

00:00:16   So if you're looking back at this and you hear that the year is 2020, you may have some

00:00:21   sense of the unprecedented year we've been having.

00:00:30   That seems to be the term that's been thrown around a lot.

00:00:33   And it's like, I don't even know where to begin for all the things that are happening

00:00:37   that are not normal, are atypical, are significant, are emotional, are frustrating.

00:00:44   And so as the year starts out and we start to have the coronavirus outbreak and it totally

00:00:50   upends everything and causes widespread sickness and tragedy, and as right as we get to the

00:01:02   point where we start to perhaps slightly see the end of this and things open up, there's

00:01:08   all of the awfulness going on.

00:01:20   The issues around racism in the US and police brutality and the way those things are reacted

00:01:25   to and the protests around that, and all of these things come together.

00:01:29   And it's worth saying, I think, Marco and I, we are firmly against racism and all of

00:01:36   its guises as structural and personal and all of the awful things that are happening

00:01:41   there.

00:01:42   But as a result of all of those things, at least I can speak for myself, there is just

00:01:48   this general sense of difficulty and challenge.

00:01:53   As it relates to my work, it's been very difficult in this last six months to be productive,

00:01:58   to get the normal amount of work done that I would hope to do or expect myself to do

00:02:04   or want to do.

00:02:07   It's really hard to want to focus or be able to focus on the things that relate to my job

00:02:13   when it feels like everything around you is falling apart and going crazy and everything's

00:02:19   awful.

00:02:20   And it seemed like a topic, though, that is probably worth just discussing and talking

00:02:25   through some observations around what the impacts of having these external factors in

00:02:31   the world that are big and significant and weighty can have on you emotionally and how

00:02:36   they can relate to your productivity and your work.

00:02:39   And then also, on the more positive side, is hopefully to talk about some of the strategies

00:02:43   and things that you can do, that I've done, that Marco's done, that have helped.

00:02:49   Many of these things, when something is happening outside in the world more generally, there's

00:02:55   only so much that we can do to affect change to that and to eliminate it.

00:03:01   It isn't like I'm sitting in a chair that's uncomfortable and if I go and get a new chair,

00:03:06   suddenly my work environment can be more productive or more comfortable.

00:03:11   These are situations that are broad and wide in the world.

00:03:15   There aren't these simple and easy quick fixes, but there are certainly strategies and things

00:03:18   that we can do to mitigate the effect on us and to help us both emotionally and for our

00:03:24   mental health as well as our productivity and our ability to continue doing our jobs

00:03:29   in the midst of things that make that really difficult.

00:03:33   Yeah, because ultimately, as Dave said, this has been a really messed up year so far.

00:03:40   And the major factors, basically being COVID-19 and the Black Lives Matter protests against

00:03:46   police brutality, that's not likely to go away quickly.

00:03:52   These problems aren't just going to be solved tomorrow and everything will go back to "normal."

00:03:56   That's not going to happen.

00:03:57   Any return to something closer to normal is going to just take time.

00:04:01   It's going to be a gradual process and it's already been months.

00:04:06   I mean, we talked about doing this episode months ago and we kept having other things

00:04:10   to talk about, but it's already been months that we've been quarantined and going through

00:04:15   the COVID-19 pandemic and all those things.

00:04:20   This is such a not normal time that I personally, I know many people out there have had to do

00:04:27   that trouble.

00:04:28   I personally have had a lot of trouble getting any work done whatsoever.

00:04:33   And I think that's okay.

00:04:36   When we first started out with the quarantine, certainly one of the fastest issues we had

00:04:43   to face was what do we do about school?

00:04:45   We both have children.

00:04:47   You had a different situation than I do.

00:04:50   My situation was my kid went to a public school.

00:04:53   He goes to a regular school and his school was closed.

00:04:58   So everyone started doing basically web remote teaching and web remote learning.

00:05:03   So he has to do video chats and fill out worksheets and everything.

00:05:08   That's been difficult for everyone, for the teachers, for the students, for the parents,

00:05:13   because nobody was prepared for that.

00:05:14   It's a hugely different shift in how things have to work.

00:05:18   Everybody has to do things they haven't done before in ways they haven't done before.

00:05:23   It was extremely disruptive.

00:05:26   The question certainly arose of how much work should your children be doing during this

00:05:33   time?

00:05:34   How much should you try to stick with school?

00:05:36   For some people, school is what makes their kids feel normal.

00:05:42   So they try to do as structured of a day as possible for their kids.

00:05:47   For other people, their kids don't thrive in a school environment and school is stressful.

00:05:55   Moving it to home and trying to reproduce as much of the school day as possible at home

00:05:59   was a source of stress for a lot of people, not a source of normalcy and structure.

00:06:05   So you had to make a judgment call based on who you knew your kid to be of like, "Do

00:06:10   we make them work a lot or do we make them work just what they need to do bare minimum

00:06:16   and let them chill for the rest of the time?"

00:06:19   And I think back, nobody looks back on periods of disasters or tragedies or wars or things

00:06:28   like that.

00:06:29   No one looks back on that time later and says, "I wish I was more productive during that

00:06:34   time."

00:06:36   These are serious times where serious stuff is going on, much of which is negative.

00:06:41   And it's okay during that time to not overwork yourself or your kids or whatever, your employees.

00:06:49   It's totally okay to not overwork people.

00:06:52   In fact, you should be doing the opposite.

00:06:53   You should be underworking yourself during this time because there's a lot to process

00:06:57   and deal with in the world right now.

00:06:59   There are major shifts happening all around us.

00:07:02   There are major, you know, heavy dark times happening and many things have become more

00:07:09   difficult or more time consuming for us to handle at home or at work.

00:07:14   And so we need to leave space to breathe and to relax and to process this and to have some

00:07:22   time off.

00:07:23   And the good thing is that what most of us do, I think one of the unintentional positive

00:07:31   side effects of the quarantine period has been that a lot of the stuff that we used

00:07:36   to do day to day that we told ourselves we had to do, we actually don't have to do.

00:07:42   Or we can get away with doing a lot less of it.

00:07:45   And so I think we can apply a lot of that to our indie lives as well.

00:07:51   Indie life has been largely, for me, about trying to do as little work as possible, trying

00:07:58   to commit to as little time requirement as possible.

00:08:02   I don't want to create a job for myself where I have to wake up and do six hours of work

00:08:06   every single day, otherwise the job falls apart.

00:08:09   It's more bursty where if I want to go a day without doing any work whatsoever, that's

00:08:15   okay.

00:08:16   The work will wait or the app will run itself to some degree.

00:08:20   If I want to have a week where I do nothing, if I want to go on vacation, which is always

00:08:26   a healthy thing, we've talked about that, I want to have a business where it can take

00:08:30   a week of me not putting much or any time into it.

00:08:34   With the quarantine, I think what we've seen is we need even more slack in the system than

00:08:42   we initially thought for certain large scale disasters like this.

00:08:47   And I've been fortunate that my, like, for the whole first month, I didn't really do

00:08:53   anything.

00:08:54   I got almost no work done for like a month.

00:08:57   And nothing bad happened to my business.

00:09:00   It was fine.

00:09:01   My business, like, my app is in a stable-ish state.

00:09:04   Everything was fine.

00:09:05   Usage went down, money went down a little bit, but it wasn't like fatally so.

00:09:10   And so everything was just running kind of in like, you know, stable mode waiting for

00:09:16   whenever I want to work on it next.

00:09:18   And it's really great to put yourself in a position where you can have that kind of slack

00:09:22   in your business, where you can have that kind of like built in buffer on everything

00:09:26   and be like, "All right, it's okay if I don't work for a little while."

00:09:30   And you know, the business won't die.

00:09:33   My app won't stop working.

00:09:35   You know, everything will be fine.

00:09:37   And all those like feature updates that you want to do or redesigns or whatever, you know

00:09:41   what, maybe those can wait.

00:09:43   Does it really matter if you redesign the app this year or next year?

00:09:46   You know, does it really matter if you add this feature that 10% of your people are asking

00:09:50   for now or in a year from now?

00:09:54   Probably not.

00:09:55   All right.

00:09:56   So ultimately, I think it's very valuable to let yourself recognize that these are not

00:10:02   normal times and give yourself the room to breathe and give yourself time off and not

00:10:09   to beat yourself up over it.

00:10:11   Because again, like I think in five years from now, no one's gonna be looking back at

00:10:16   this time and saying, "Wow, I really wish I added two more features during the quarantine."

00:10:20   Yeah.

00:10:21   And I feel like so much of these, like it makes me think of one of the best analogies

00:10:26   I ever have, or the analogy that I find useful for myself in terms of understanding my capacity

00:10:35   for doing things is to think of like my life is like this, I have a box, and I can choose

00:10:42   which things I put into that.

00:10:44   And it's like, I can put in sleep, and I can put in exercise, and I can put in eating,

00:10:47   I can put in relationships, I can put in work, I can put in all of the various like homework,

00:10:52   whatever those things are that I need to do.

00:10:55   But the size of the box is sort of outside of my control.

00:11:01   And in many ways, you have situations like this where suddenly I feel like the box got

00:11:05   smaller, and it got smaller because of the emotional strain and the uncertainty and the

00:11:11   difficulty that sort of surrounds what we're doing.

00:11:14   And it's like at a certain point, you have to decide, "Well, what are you going to take

00:11:17   out?

00:11:18   What are you going to not, what are you going to take out of the box because the box is

00:11:22   too small?

00:11:23   It can't hold as much as it used to."

00:11:25   And that calculus is really complicated, but it's one of those things.

00:11:30   There is no way to change that.

00:11:33   Like you can't just like say, sort of like the old thing of, "Oh, I wish I had 25 hours

00:11:37   in a day."

00:11:38   It's like, you can't.

00:11:40   Like they're sort of trying to sort of fake it by working extra hours.

00:11:46   It's like all you're doing is you're taking away from sleep, probably, or you're taking

00:11:50   away from relationships, or you're taking away from something else.

00:11:53   Like ultimately, everything has to balance out.

00:11:56   And I think what's, it certainly is, everyone's situation is different.

00:12:00   And I think it is certainly one of the great things that I'm very appreciative of, of the

00:12:04   kind of the typical sort of software development lifecycle is such that it is one that has

00:12:11   a lot of slack in it.

00:12:12   That it is a situation where if I need to take out several units of software development

00:12:17   so that I can make sure that I don't have to take out any of my, you know, sort of sleep

00:12:22   or wellbeing or relationships or connection, I can leave all those in the box and I can

00:12:26   take out some work right now.

00:12:28   Like that is a tremendously fortunate place to be.

00:12:30   And obviously that's dependent on the kind of work you do.

00:12:32   And even if you are an independent developer, if you're doing a lot of consulting work or

00:12:35   something like that, where even if it's, you know, even sort of in the most specific cases,

00:12:39   if it's like hourly consulting, that there's like a very fixed number of hours that you

00:12:42   need to be sitting down working on a project.

00:12:45   Like maybe you don't have that flexibility to be able to do that.

00:12:48   But there's a certainly is important to understand that ever all of these things are going to

00:12:53   be this necessary trade off that like, whatever, you know, you have to decide what are the

00:12:58   things that you're going to allow you, what you're going to choose to put into the box

00:13:01   and understand that when things are all turned upside down, like that calculus and that choice

00:13:08   is going to be harder.

00:13:10   And unfortunately, most of the things that you can do to kind of try if you want to try

00:13:15   and keep your productivity normal in an unnormal time, are going to ultimately probably make

00:13:21   it worse in the long term.

00:13:23   That if you take like, it's very, very normal right now to feel emotional in big ways.

00:13:30   And that can be all kinds of different emotions.

00:13:32   But like, it's going to be just general latent emotional state right now, at least for myself

00:13:36   is very much higher than, you know, it was perhaps a year ago.

00:13:42   And so, like, understand that, but like, if I don't, if I decided to, like, instead of

00:13:47   taking out work, if I took out sleep, or exercise or diet or those types of things, and it's

00:13:54   like left, left all my work in there, my emotional state is all is necessarily going to suffer.

00:14:00   And ultimately, like, that's, it's going to be counterproductive that I'm going to eventually

00:14:04   not be able to do that, especially in a situation like this, where it isn't a short term fixed

00:14:09   duration, like sprint, it's this very open ended, who knows how long situation.

00:14:16   And so it's like, you have to be have to be planning and making choices that allow us

00:14:19   to be as best like the best situation that we can do for as long as we can.

00:14:24   And like, it's also really something that's also probably worth saying is, it's also really

00:14:29   a common thing, at least for myself to not know what I should be doing.

00:14:32   That it's easy, you know, like, for me to, like, have a nice picture of like, I have

00:14:37   this box, and I have these different boxes that I want to put inside of it.

00:14:39   And I can kind of sit there and I can play the play the Jenga game of what I want to

00:14:43   put in and what I want to take out.

00:14:45   The reality is, is very often I often just feel like I don't know what I'm doing, and

00:14:48   I don't know what to do.

00:14:49   And I think in those situations, it's certainly like there are things that I find that the

00:14:56   easiest things to start with are the things that you know, will sort of build you up into

00:15:00   things that will encourage you and improve your physical and mental health.

00:15:05   And putting those things in first, and then seeing what you have left to make decisions

00:15:11   with is a great place to, I think, start kind of just filtering through these big feelings

00:15:15   and dealing with like, what do you do when everything's going crazy?

00:15:19   It's like, start with the things that you know kind of make it better for you.

00:15:23   And if ultimately, like, other things fall out and things don't get put back in the

00:15:28   box, like, that's totally fine.

00:15:30   And that's totally normal.

00:15:31   Yeah, totally.

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00:17:16   One thing I've been helped by a lot during this time is that, as developers, we know

00:17:22   that there's some work that's just not very fun to do that we have to do.

00:17:28   Fixing some kind of obscure, deep crash in something that affects 1% of your people,

00:17:33   that's not fun.

00:17:35   Or adopting some new Apple technology that you kind of have to, but you haven't been

00:17:39   looking forward to.

00:17:40   Like, "Oh, great, they deprecated this entire old API, and I have to replace it with this

00:17:44   new thing."

00:17:45   There's certain kind of just grunt work involved here.

00:17:47   There's also fun stuff.

00:17:48   Everyone loves starting a new project.

00:17:50   New stuff is always fun.

00:17:52   People love starting new projects.

00:17:53   I can absolutely confirm this.

00:17:55   Yes.

00:17:56   Well, new projects, new features, new apps, new little fun stuff, that's like the ice

00:18:03   cream of development.

00:18:04   It's like, everyone loves that part.

00:18:06   Starting the new stuff is great.

00:18:08   Grinding away at maintenance or old stuff is less fun.

00:18:12   You mentioned before, trying to figure out what you want to do during this time.

00:18:16   One thing that helped me a lot is I wrote the entire ATP CMS in this time.

00:18:22   It's been a large project.

00:18:23   It's still ongoing because I'm building the membership stuff now.

00:18:26   It's still ongoing.

00:18:28   Starting a new project, even though I've also been doing overcast work at the same time,

00:18:32   but just a lot less of it.

00:18:34   I've been focusing much more on the ATP stuff for now because I needed something to get

00:18:40   me out of the unproductivity funk that I was in for a month or more at the beginning of

00:18:45   the project.

00:18:47   I knew that working on a bug fix version of overcast is not going to do that.

00:18:54   Working on a brand new, totally different kind of project that was a lot of fun and

00:18:58   it's smaller scope, easier in a lot of ways, that really got me going again.

00:19:05   I wouldn't say I'm in a great state of mind in the middle of all this, but my state

00:19:11   of mind was dramatically improved once I got going on that project.

00:19:16   I broke the funk.

00:19:18   I broke the inactive depression period.

00:19:22   I shoved myself into this project that made me very happy.

00:19:26   You mentioned exercise a minute ago and I'm sure we're going to talk more about it

00:19:30   in a second, but one of the reasons why you want to exercise is that you feel good after

00:19:34   you do it.

00:19:35   For me, I also feel that same kind of satisfaction when I've exercised my brain.

00:19:42   For a month, I didn't do that.

00:19:46   Once I started exercising my brain again by having these solid coding productivity days,

00:19:52   I felt significantly improved on those days.

00:19:55   I've tried to keep that going as much as I could because, again, at times like this,

00:19:59   take whatever you can get.

00:20:00   I think favored projects are doing the work that you enjoy.

00:20:06   There's just work that we enjoy as developers.

00:20:09   There's reasons why we got into this business in the first place.

00:20:12   There's certain kinds of problems, certain kinds of tasks that are interesting and fun.

00:20:17   I definitely agree that this is a tremendously good opportunity to try as best you can to

00:20:24   work on that.

00:20:26   If you have the ability and the flexibility to do that, pick up a feature or a project

00:20:31   or an idea that you are excited about.

00:20:34   Honestly, if you have any excitement about anything when it feels like the world's falling

00:20:39   apart, go with that.

00:20:44   Don't let that spark go out.

00:20:46   Fan that flame as much as you can and take advantage of it.

00:20:52   I find it's very hard to force your mind to do something it doesn't want to do or it doesn't

00:20:59   feel like you're excited or interested in doing.

00:21:01   Eventually that grunt work, that deep bug fix that you're trying to find that affects

00:21:07   a few numbers of people, eventually you're probably going to have to do it.

00:21:12   Maybe not, who knows?

00:21:13   Maybe it's actually not as big of a deal as you thought.

00:21:15   But the reality is, if you have something that's exciting to you, go for it.

00:21:19   That was the entire reason I just finished building this whole map, built an entire mapping

00:21:22   system for the Apple Watch from scratch because it just wedged in my brain.

00:21:29   I was like, "I'm excited about this.

00:21:31   I'm going to work on it."

00:21:32   I did and I felt productive.

00:21:34   Just like you said, there is something good and wholesome about building something and

00:21:41   being productive and having that sense that you accomplish something that is a positive

00:21:45   for your mental health and a positive for your ability to get back into the groove and

00:21:51   maybe be able to tackle less favorite projects.

00:21:53   But I think it's a great opportunity to think of that and to find things that you

00:22:00   have that kind of interest for.

00:22:02   This is the perfect opportunity to do that.

00:22:03   Whatever that might be, that can be small, that could be big, it can be learning something

00:22:07   that you've been wanting to learn for a while but have been putting off.

00:22:10   Maybe now is an interesting time to do that.

00:22:13   It's just going to be very different for everyone but that's definitely something that I've

00:22:16   been doing.

00:22:17   It's certainly something that I'm continuing to do.

00:22:21   I have my list of features that are my grown-up, "One day I'll need to deal with this bug

00:22:27   feature."

00:22:28   But the reality is I'm having much more fun and much more actual productivity building

00:22:34   new stuff that I think is interesting.

00:22:36   Every time I pick up one of those features or these bugs that I need to track down, I

00:22:40   end up spending four hours doing nothing.

00:22:42   I'm just running around hitting dead ends and my productivity and my ability to do that

00:22:47   kind of work right now is just limited.

00:22:49   I feel like that's the work you have to do when you're in a prime state where everything

00:22:53   is going right and everything is good.

00:22:56   If you're not in a prime state because everything around you is not so good, that's not the

00:23:01   time to worry about those features.

00:23:02   As best you can, just put them off.

00:23:05   So many other things that I think we can do outside of the work itself too.

00:23:11   Exercise is great just in terms of being active is just good for our well-being.

00:23:17   I think especially now, it is something that is so hard to be outside that whatever fitness

00:23:25   looks like for you, you can do some amount of exercise in any amount of space.

00:23:29   You don't need a huge amount of space or equipment or a situation to just be up and active and

00:23:33   get your blood flowing.

00:23:35   That has just tremendous positive effects on you.

00:23:39   I think another related thing is just the importance of taking breaks.

00:23:44   Fitness and exercise is a great break to take.

00:23:46   That's a nice short thing to say, "In the middle of the day, I'm going to stop and

00:23:50   I'm going to do 100 jumping jacks," or whatever it might be.

00:23:54   Do 10 push-ups.

00:23:55   It doesn't actually matter what you're doing, but taking breaks from your work and

00:24:00   exercise is a great place to do that.

00:24:02   That can be a short thing or a long thing, but just giving yourself permission that you

00:24:07   don't need to be nose to the grindstone the whole time.

00:24:11   Even better is perhaps if you can take those breaks and combine exercise and nature, like

00:24:16   going for a walk outside, going for a run, going for a bike ride, whatever is appropriate

00:24:20   for your situation.

00:24:22   I find that just being outside and being around nature is just very soothing in general.

00:24:29   Something that I think is a very apt and effective thing, if that's something that's possible

00:24:34   for you to do right now, it's a great way to take a break and reset and just lower the

00:24:41   – I feel like it lowers my anxiety when I'm just out in nature.

00:24:46   It's certainly a strategy that I've been using a lot recently to try and help.

00:24:51   Yeah, I've been doing all that as well because there are real reasons for this.

00:24:57   There's actual body chemistry and body health improvements that happen when you get any

00:25:03   exercise or when you get sunlight and fresh air.

00:25:07   This is not just mumbo jumbo, hippie stuff.

00:25:10   This is actually real science.

00:25:13   Your body actually is healthier and happier when you have exercise and fresh air and sunlight.

00:25:20   Do what you can.

00:25:21   Again, it's like because we're in a hard time, we keep saying just do what you can

00:25:25   to improve things for yourself and to get through it.

00:25:28   This is part of that.

00:25:29   Give yourself the best chance to feel good, as good as you can, by indulging yourself

00:25:36   in the things that you like, the work that you like, the activities that you like, and

00:25:41   by giving your body the chemistry it needs to be happy through things like exercise and

00:25:45   sunlight.

00:25:46   Yeah, and I think also, I think it's a very, very useful thing to keep in mind, as you

00:25:53   were saying earlier, if you just didn't work on your app for a year, how bad would

00:25:58   that actually be?

00:25:59   Would you go out of business?

00:26:00   Would everyone immediately stop buying it?

00:26:03   Possibly if you're in a rough state, but probably not.

00:26:06   Most apps could take a long time without major updates and be fine business-wise.

00:26:11   You do the updates usually because you want to or because you want to remain competitive

00:26:15   or whatever, but you don't actually have to do that as much as you might think.

00:26:21   That's something to keep in mind as well.

00:26:22   Finally, I think the timing of this, assuming that the rest of the year might be closer

00:26:27   to normal, which granted is not a safe assumption, but assuming that the worst is probably behind

00:26:33   us, this is actually a really good time for this in the year because we've talked about

00:26:38   before the seasonality of being an app developer and how right before WWDC, for the few months

00:26:44   before it, is a great time to not be doing a whole bunch of major changes to your app

00:26:50   because the whole world that we rest on is about to shift when WWDC happens and then

00:26:56   we have the summer of betas and the fall of releases and new hardware.

00:27:01   This has always been a good time of year for us to do more exploratory work or try new

00:27:06   projects or back off and do something fun while we wait for WWDC.

00:27:11   The timing of this is actually really good.

00:27:14   As we lead into WWDC in a couple of weeks now, I think it'll be interesting to see,

00:27:19   first of all, how big of a year does this end up being for Apple because they've had

00:27:22   challenges too because they've also been quarantined and slowed down and delayed probably in a

00:27:27   lot of ways.

00:27:28   We don't know how big of a year it's going to be for the APIs and for the platforms and

00:27:32   later on for the hardware, but it's interesting to think we've had all this time that we could

00:27:37   have been doing all this exploratory stuff and for the next few weeks we still can with

00:27:41   basically no burden from Apple on you better hurry up and adopt this thing because right

00:27:46   now we don't know what that is yet.

00:27:48   Honestly, I'm just excited about seeing what gets announced.

00:27:54   One of my favorite things is coming up with finding a favorite project or finding something

00:28:00   interesting.

00:28:01   WWDC is ground zero for that.

00:28:04   Here is Apple coming up and saying, "Here's all this new interesting stuff that we think

00:28:08   you should try and explore."

00:28:09   It's like, "Hooray!"

00:28:12   I'm really just looking forward to doing that.

00:28:16   It wouldn't surprise me at all if this is a year where it works well to be a bit more

00:28:22   exploratory and enjoy that.

00:28:26   Especially if there's some new thing that you think is really cool and interesting,

00:28:29   go for it.

00:28:30   If you're excited about it, it's a great time to dive into that.

00:28:35   I do hope that there is also something I will say that is slightly comforting to me about

00:28:41   the thought of a WWDC keynote that has been such a fixture in my life for so long that

00:28:47   there is something normative about it that it makes me hopeful that it will be an experience.

00:28:54   I know what to expect and I know what comes next.

00:28:56   Hopefully, we're getting into a more stable place and that will be a great opportunity

00:29:01   to hopefully have this mid-year reset and kind of re-decide what I want to work on the

00:29:06   rest of the year and just see where it goes.

00:29:08   I'm very much looking forward to it as well for all the same reasons.

00:29:12   As you said, the fun part of development so often is that new stuff, new projects.

00:29:19   Go to Xcode, file a new project, and try something totally new.

00:29:24   Beta season is an especially fun time to do that.

00:29:27   I'm looking forward to the escape that will provide and to the little opportunities for

00:29:33   satisfaction that we've got afterwards.

00:29:36   Hopefully it's a good year.

00:29:37   The show will be after the keynote so we will know a lot more about it and we'll do it

00:29:40   about that.

00:29:41   We will talk to you then and have a wonderful two weeks, everyone.

00:29:44   Thanks for listening.

00:29:45   Thank you.

00:29:46   Bye.

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