Under the Radar

187: Uncertain Times


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04   I'm Mark O'Arment.

00:00:05   And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06   Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10   So we're recording this on March 18th, 2020, right in the middle of the COVID-19 coronavirus

00:00:15   epidemic.

00:00:17   And so, and this is, you know, we talked last episode about, we speculated that WVDC would

00:00:23   be canceled.

00:00:25   It has been officially since then.

00:00:28   And we actually don't have much more to say about that this week because we don't actually

00:00:32   have any really new information about what Apple's doing instead.

00:00:36   It's going to be some kind of online-only program.

00:00:38   They made some, you know, some optimistic quotes in their press release about how this

00:00:42   is going to be great.

00:00:43   And it might be, and we'll see.

00:00:44   We'll see what happens there.

00:00:45   But we're not really going to talk about that this week because we don't have any new information

00:00:49   really.

00:00:51   This week we wanted to talk about the ongoing effect of the COVID-19 epidemic and how the

00:00:57   entire world is basically shutting down.

00:01:00   And what that means for us as developers, as, you know, self-employed business people,

00:01:08   how that might affect the market for our apps, how that might affect decisions we make about

00:01:13   launching updates or, you know, maybe holding some stuff back for a little while.

00:01:18   Maybe certain things might be, you know, wise from a PR perspective to just not do for a

00:01:23   while because they might be in poor taste or whatever else.

00:01:27   And just kind of how to deal with this as people.

00:01:31   Because this is something that I don't think, I mean, you know, we're both old enough now.

00:01:38   We remember things like September 11th, certain major natural disasters that have hit.

00:01:45   I've never seen anything like this.

00:01:48   Have you?

00:01:49   No.

00:01:50   I mean, certainly not to this scale where I feel like there's, like the nature of most

00:01:56   natural disasters is that they impact a particular geography, you know, in a way that is probably

00:02:04   more profound than the impact of this in the sense of, you know, when a hurricane comes

00:02:10   through or a tornado or an earthquake, like there's a very localized, very intense effect.

00:02:16   I've never really experienced something like this where it is so pervasive that it's like

00:02:21   it affects everyone all over the world to some degree.

00:02:25   And that, I think, is such a different thing.

00:02:30   And then, I mean, I've certainly never seen a situation like this where, you know, like

00:02:33   all the restaurants are closed and, you know, everyone's sort of instructed to just stay

00:02:38   at home and you sort of do your best.

00:02:41   And you're in this kind of this weird holding pattern where it's unclear for how long it'll

00:02:49   be.

00:02:50   Because I think, too, that the uncertainty of that is definitely something that I feel

00:02:53   like is fairly unprecedented, where, you know, like the more annual sort of things that force

00:03:00   people to stay home, like say, imagine a big blizzard is coming through.

00:03:04   You have a reasonable expectation that like, okay, the blizzard is going to happen on a

00:03:08   Monday, maybe, you know, none of the roads are plowed for a few days, and then, oh, you

00:03:12   know, the major roads are plowed.

00:03:14   And then like, after three or four days, everyone can kind of get out of their house and get

00:03:18   back to, you know, sort of get back to normal life.

00:03:22   And you kind of have that timeline and that expectation in your mind about what this will

00:03:26   look like.

00:03:27   And even for the biggest storms we've had, like there was one year, you know, I live

00:03:31   in the DC area, and we had this one year where we had, I think it was snowmageddon and the

00:03:35   snowpocalypse, whatever the local weather people called it, where we had, you know, these two

00:03:39   big two foot of snow storms in a row.

00:03:41   We're not really very equipped for that.

00:03:43   And so we had this big, like, I think for maybe, maybe for about 10 days, I couldn't

00:03:48   leave my house, just because like the road that I was on was just completely impassable.

00:03:54   And like that was, but it had the, you know, you always have in your mind, it's like,

00:03:57   well, eventually, the snow will melt, and eventually the plows will come.

00:04:02   And once they do, everything will kind of go back to normal.

00:04:04   But what's really weird here is it's like, well, we're kind of all staying home, and

00:04:09   we're all doing our best.

00:04:11   And we have no idea if this is weeks, if this is months, if this is going to be, you know,

00:04:17   the reality going forward for the next year, like, is this going to come in waves where

00:04:22   we come and we, you know, sort of, we have periods like where we're supposed to stay

00:04:26   home where periods were supposed to go out, like that uncertainty is just so unprecedented.

00:04:31   And I think this adds such a dynamic to any kind of decision making you might want to

00:04:36   make right now.

00:04:38   Yeah, I think, you know, we've, we've been lucky in that during our lifetimes, for

00:04:43   the most part, in most places in the world, or at least, you know, places, places that

00:04:47   we have lived, you know, the US and Europe, that we haven't had like major wars, or

00:04:53   major famines or major illnesses.

00:04:55   And so this, you know, really, we've been very fortunate in, you know, when you look

00:05:00   at history, this has been a pretty calm, stable time.

00:05:04   And so when you look at what we have to do now is we have to adapt to some, you know,

00:05:09   temporary but significant instability.

00:05:13   And, you know, we don't, we've never really had to prepare for things like this.

00:05:18   We've never really had to say like, you know what, what if the world just doesn't

00:05:22   really want to be happy or excited about new things or be using new apps for a year?

00:05:28   Like that might happen.

00:05:30   We don't know.

00:05:31   And we've never really had to face that during our careers before.

00:05:36   You know, like I think September 11th is the closest that we've come to something like

00:05:40   that.

00:05:41   But we were, like I was in college, you were too, right?

00:05:44   - I was in high school, or just finished high school, I guess.

00:05:47   - Right, so like we were a little young for it to affect our professional lives.

00:05:51   You know, it certainly affected us personally, but you know, we weren't like operating businesses

00:05:57   at that time and making that kind of decision.

00:05:59   But in the aftermath of that, a lot of product releases were delayed, a lot of like concerts

00:06:07   and sporting events and stuff were canceled or delayed because like nobody was in the

00:06:12   mood to have fun and celebrate, basically.

00:06:14   And I think we're seeing a lot of that now.

00:06:18   Not to the same degree of like, of mourning and sadness.

00:06:23   And I don't think that aspect of this will be anywhere near as strong as it was for September

00:06:28   11th.

00:06:29   But I think that we have to have some similar concerns and considerations of like, you know,

00:06:35   is this a good time to do frivolous fun things?

00:06:38   Is this a good time to like release a new app or things like that?

00:06:43   Or should we kind of hold off and wait?

00:06:46   And you can kind of make arguments both ways.

00:06:48   You can say, well, you know, this, people need some happiness right now because everyone's

00:06:53   stuck in their houses under, you know, self-quarantine or social distancing policies or things like

00:06:58   that.

00:06:59   You know, we kind of need stuff to make us happy and to give us things to do that we

00:07:04   can do in our house.

00:07:06   On the other hand, you don't want to appear that you're capitalizing on a pretty big worldwide

00:07:12   problem and for many people a tragedy.

00:07:15   You know, so I don't know, what's your thought, what's your thinking on this?

00:07:19   I mean, I think too there's this fundamental question of like, is this something that we

00:07:25   expect to be short-lived or sort of pervasive and ongoing in the long term?

00:07:32   Because the more that it is something that is long term and a sort of just like this

00:07:39   is the reality for months from now, the more I sort of tend towards the like, we just kind

00:07:46   of, we have to kind of keep calm and carry on like at a little bit of it.

00:07:51   We keep moving forward because being on hold for just sort of indefinitely, indefinitely

00:07:57   is just not realistic or not productive necessarily, that it isn't, to your point, it's like, it's

00:08:04   somewhat, it's, while it's certainly, you know, it's a tragic thing for many people,

00:08:07   it is, there is less of that sense of that it's, you know, that doing things other than

00:08:14   just like worrying about this sort of this faceless fear in the world, that, like, I

00:08:20   don't, that's not productive either.

00:08:22   Like being able to move forward, being able to keep doing things, you know, and continuing

00:08:27   to do our jobs is certainly something that I think is like important both in the sense

00:08:33   of establishing a sense of normalcy or about just like not being frozen and being like

00:08:42   stuck.

00:08:43   And like, I find it certainly, it's been a tricky time to feel focused on work and

00:08:49   being motivated and encouraged to do work, but there is certainly a benefit and a positive

00:08:58   impact on doing the things that we do normally, even if like having one area of our life that

00:09:03   is somewhat more normal, or at least somewhat more like in our control, doing things that

00:09:08   we can control.

00:09:11   But like the timing side of it is just so mind bending.

00:09:13   I mean, like, this is crazy for me, because, I mean, I think I've mentioned a few times

00:09:17   on the show, like I am in the late stages of preparing to launch like my next sort of

00:09:23   major app.

00:09:25   My current, like my plan originally was, I think, to launch April 7th, which is in just

00:09:31   the broad, right around three weeks from now, at this point.

00:09:35   And like the app is pretty much there.

00:09:37   Like I'm in the like bug fix and like getting it ready phase.

00:09:43   But it feels really weird to be going into that point with like this strange sense of

00:09:48   like, A, is this a good idea from a business perspective?

00:09:52   Like is anyone going to pay any attention to a new app?

00:09:56   You know, when the news is every, it's like every day there is like level one news in

00:10:02   the news.

00:10:03   There's tremendous distraction.

00:10:05   There's tremendous sort of upheaval and unease.

00:10:09   And so from that perspective, like the marketing side, like, is it good?

00:10:12   I mean, it's like as a recording, Apple just launched a bunch of new products.

00:10:17   And it's going to be in some ways, it's like, it's a funny, I'm sure they've had to deal

00:10:20   with the same question of like, is this, are we going to get any amount of the normal publicity

00:10:25   or marketing attention that we normally would because there's such a high level of distraction.

00:10:29   And then on the business side, like, are people going to be willing to spend, you know, spend

00:10:34   money like, or is it a period where people are going to be much more reluctant to, you

00:10:41   know, serve any non essential purchase is like, it's much more likely to be put off

00:10:46   and delayed.

00:10:48   Just as you would kind of expect and is likely prudent in a period of uncertainty, you know,

00:10:53   is this something where, you know, you want you kind of want to you want to not necessarily

00:10:56   be indulging in confectionary when like, you aren't clear, you know, it's unclear as to

00:11:02   how long you're going to need to do things.

00:11:05   And certainly, I think, you know, the tech industry is probably one of the industries

00:11:09   that is best equipped to weather this financially.

00:11:12   But I mean, I got my heart goes out to all the people who have more service jobs or restaurant

00:11:17   or those types of positions where, like, if people aren't going out, you're just stuck

00:11:23   and your job just disappears until people go out again.

00:11:26   So like, from a business perspective, launching something or being like doing something kind

00:11:31   of like big work feels really weird.

00:11:36   And it's really doubly so because these things take time.

00:11:40   And so you have to kind of predict into the future and be like, well, in April, is it

00:11:44   going to be a totally different world?

00:11:46   Like today, this, you know, we're recording on a Wednesday, like, this Wednesday versus

00:11:50   last Wednesday feels like night and day different, like the whole world has completely turned

00:11:56   itself around in a week.

00:11:59   So like in two weeks, it could have like done a double backflip.

00:12:03   And like, we could be back where we are, it could be incredibly worse, like, who knows,

00:12:06   who knows?

00:12:07   So like trying to plan ahead of that and sort of like do any kind of release planning feels

00:12:11   like completely like impossible.

00:12:14   Yeah, and I think to the degree, the degree of which this affects you is going to vary

00:12:23   greatly based on the types of apps or services that you do.

00:12:29   You know, like I just ran overcast numbers and usually, like, I was fearing this could

00:12:35   be pretty bad for overcast because typically, the usage, my daily usage of like daily active

00:12:42   users, you can clearly see weekends and holidays.

00:12:45   You can very clearly see like a typically a Sunday has something like a 18% drop from

00:12:54   like a Tuesday.

00:12:56   Like the average weekend is, you know, roughly, you know, almost 20% less activity than the

00:13:03   weekdays because so many people listen to podcasts on their way to work or during work

00:13:08   or during their weekday routines and then the weekends they're doing other things or

00:13:12   whatever.

00:13:13   So I was afraid very much this could be really bad for overcast.

00:13:16   But it turns out so far, it's been about a 7% reduction, which is less than I would have

00:13:23   guessed.

00:13:24   Like, so my usage is down about 7% across the board.

00:13:27   But, you know, an average weekend brings it down 18%.

00:13:31   So that's actually, this actually is looking like it's going to be okay for overcast.

00:13:37   But things could be radically different.

00:13:39   You know, it's like, as you said, like, you know, for certain types of businesses, you

00:13:43   know, if you work at a restaurant or in travel or hospitality, this is really, really bad.

00:13:50   And I think globally, like the economic impact of, you know, just quite, if you think about

00:13:56   quite how much of the economy, quite how many jobs are directly related to things like restaurants

00:14:03   and travel and hospitality that are all going to be devastated by this.

00:14:08   That's a bad scene for a lot of people and for the economy.

00:14:11   And I think that is going to affect everyone for a long time.

00:14:16   The economic impact of this is going to be felt for a while.

00:14:18   You know, we've already seen the stock market doing very poorly right now.

00:14:22   And that also, that affects everybody too.

00:14:24   Like, you know, a lot of people who have their retirement savings, you know, tied up in index

00:14:28   funds and stuff like that, like those are all just down right now.

00:14:31   And anytime you have any kind of like global depression or recession, it kind of puts everyone

00:14:36   in a bit of a funk because a lot of people lose a lot of money.

00:14:41   And for a lot of people, that could mean like delaying retirement or, you know, not putting

00:14:45   off non-essential purchases, as you said, you know, stuff like that.

00:14:48   And so, yeah, when you're releasing an app into this, you have to be aware of that.

00:14:52   But fortunately, I think most of us release apps that are less impacted by these kind

00:15:00   of things directly.

00:15:01   You know, obviously this depends on your app.

00:15:03   But because most apps are very low cost or free and supported with ads or something else,

00:15:11   I think we're actually going to be mostly okay on the business side for most types of

00:15:16   apps.

00:15:17   Again, this is all hedging with a lot of mosts and maybes.

00:15:19   But, you know, I think overall app makers will be okay.

00:15:23   It's the rest of the economy that we have to worry about and try to support as best

00:15:26   as we can because it's going to be decimated.

00:15:30   So many industries are going to be destroyed by this.

00:15:33   You know, I guarantee you, like everyone listening, like some restaurant you like is going to

00:15:39   go out of business because of this.

00:15:40   Some people you know are going to really be hurting financially because of this.

00:15:44   Like this is going to impact everybody.

00:15:46   So be mindful of that, be sensitive to that.

00:15:50   But I do think that we are fortunate.

00:15:53   We are very fortunate in a number of ways.

00:15:54   But we are fortunate in that the app business will be mostly okay after this beyond the

00:16:00   impact of just whatever would happen if the stock market went down normally.

00:16:05   So maybe getting a new job, hiring might be a problem.

00:16:09   Advertising is going to become a little bit challenging because typically when budgets

00:16:13   start getting cut, advertising gets cut first because it's considered like a non-essential

00:16:18   expenditure.

00:16:19   So that could affect a lot of us.

00:16:22   But I don't think it's going to be fatal to any of our businesses.

00:16:25   I think it's just going to be like a bit of a down year for most of us.

00:16:28   But we'll be okay.

00:16:29   It's the rest of the economy we have to worry about.

00:16:31   Well, and I think it speaks to in the same way that I think just broadly in the economy.

00:16:36   Like when things get difficult, the more marginal your sort of subsistence is, the far more

00:16:45   vulnerable you are to this kind of a downturn, this kind of a situation.

00:16:49   And I think that applies broadly to the economy that the people for whom they're in a financial

00:16:53   situation that is more marginal, that it's much more month to month that they're sort

00:16:59   of operating in.

00:17:00   Like a downturn like this is really problematic and difficult and dangerous for them.

00:17:05   And in the same way on a business perspective, I got to imagine it's like if your business

00:17:08   is one that can't just sort of absorb a 10 or 15 percent drop in revenue or in usage

00:17:19   or whatever that metric is for you, if that difference in margin sort of puts you in the

00:17:25   red and knocks you out, then this downturn could be fatal and could be problematic in

00:17:31   that way for your business.

00:17:33   I've already seen in my own, so for the apps that I have that use third party advertising,

00:17:39   so I use AdSense for most of this, so essentially Google's big auction-based advertising system

00:17:45   that pulls in from lots and lots of different industries and pulls in lots of things, I've

00:17:49   already seen a 20 to 30 percent drop in the advertising rates that I get in my apps.

00:17:54   Oh, wow.

00:17:55   And this is one of those things that I think that's a just into your point, it's a general

00:18:00   reflection on the constraint of businesses' budgets, that if you are going into a period

00:18:08   of uncertainty or you're having a difficult time, advertising is an easy thing to turn

00:18:15   up and to turn down because it's not that core essential like making payroll or building

00:18:20   your product or whatever it is, expense.

00:18:22   You can just pour money into this thing or take money out of it.

00:18:26   And so I definitely see that, I mean it's the comedy of I usually see the, there's lots

00:18:30   of things that I can see in the data having done this for so many years where my advertising

00:18:35   rates always fall at the end, like the day after the end of a financial quarter.

00:18:40   So there's certain periods where it's just like the next day it drops off and it's because

00:18:45   presumably someone had a budget that they had their quarterly budget and they went in

00:18:50   at the beginning of Q1 and put in their advertising money to spend and it's like spread out over

00:18:54   the quarter and then they'll go and put in their money for the next day but it doesn't

00:19:00   necessarily happen right away.

00:19:01   And I'll see these, the first year it happened it was terrifying where suddenly I had April

00:19:05   1st and my revenue is down 30% for one day and then it picks itself back up and it's

00:19:11   fine but you can see these weird tendrils of the actual effects in these businesses

00:19:18   who are doing the advertising kind of average out into these things and I'm definitely seeing

00:19:23   that already.

00:19:24   And I'm just anecdotally, I'm hearing from other fellow indie developers that it's definitely

00:19:29   a rough time.

00:19:30   That a lot of this is down, it isn't collapsing at least at this point but it's definitely

00:19:36   like, there's that little part, that top part, the more, hopefully you have a core part of

00:19:46   your business that is stable but there's the nice part, the part that grows or the like

00:19:53   that little, there's this non-core part of your business that can potentially just like

00:19:57   disappear.

00:19:59   And I'm definitely seeing that myself and so it's like I think at this point I'm not

00:20:03   worried in terms of like I think my core business is fine and I've been, it's like the whole

00:20:08   point in many ways, it's like being prudent when you're having the good times so that

00:20:12   when things are not good you're alright but I could definitely see there's gonna be a

00:20:17   lot of small businesses even in our app development world where if they were just making it that

00:20:25   now they're just not making it as a result of these kind of downturns in advertising

00:20:31   or user purchasing or related things.

00:20:34   - Speaking of advertising, there's no good way to make this segue, I'm just gonna go

00:20:38   now for it.

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00:22:19   So I wanted to talk a little bit more about building Slack into the system, I don't mean

00:22:23   the chat tool, I mean like a rope, building Slack into the system.

00:22:30   You mentioned if your margins are super slim then a sudden 20 or 30% drop in revenue could

00:22:37   be fatal for your business.

00:22:39   There's a lot of businesses where this is kind of inevitable, this is just kind of part

00:22:43   of those businesses that their margins just aren't that big.

00:22:47   We are lucky as software developers in that most of our businesses don't work that way.

00:22:51   Most of our businesses are pretty low cost and I think this is one of the great lessons

00:22:57   that I want to leave people with besides, I mean we could do all sorts of things.

00:23:01   We could talk about working from home, we could talk about avoiding the likely depression

00:23:06   that might result from this, the emotional depression that might result from being all

00:23:09   cooped up like this for a long time.

00:23:12   We aren't really experts in that kind of thing and lots of people are talking about working

00:23:15   from home.

00:23:16   So I want to focus on like leaving Slack in your business for the rest of this episode.

00:23:21   This is one of the many times when it pays to have kept your costs low, it pays to develop

00:23:28   skills or to arrange your business in such a way that you have very low overhead because

00:23:34   stuff like this happens.

00:23:35   Ever since the App Store launched, I had Instapaper there on day two or three and I've been in

00:23:43   the App Store with something every day since then.

00:23:48   The entire time I have treated the App Store like this is a fad that could collapse and

00:23:53   go away at any moment.

00:23:57   The entire time I've kept my costs much lower than my income, like as a percentage of the

00:24:02   income.

00:24:03   Even when I've been running a lot of very expensive servers back when they used to cost

00:24:06   money before Linode.

00:24:10   Ever since I've been running servers, usually that's my biggest cost.

00:24:15   I don't hire a staff because that can be a way bigger cost than servers.

00:24:20   So I try not to hire a staff and I use inexpensive infrastructure.

00:24:24   So I don't use AWS for almost anything.

00:24:26   I use S3 for large storage of things like images and uploads and backups, but that's

00:24:34   about it.

00:24:36   And otherwise, I'm using VPSs.

00:24:39   I'm using inexpensive commodity VPSs.

00:24:42   And I've been at Linode for all of Overcast.

00:24:44   Before Overcast, I was doing big servers, but now I don't need those.

00:24:48   Now VPSs are powerful enough.

00:24:50   You can keep your costs really low if you use commodity infrastructure like Linode or

00:24:56   other similar services like DigitalOcean and all these other places that have VPSs.

00:25:00   You can keep your costs really low by doing that.

00:25:04   And if you can do almost all the work yourself, or all the work yourself, you don't really

00:25:09   need a full-time staff.

00:25:10   Or you can just use contract labor for the very, very few.

00:25:14   If you wanted to maybe contract somebody to answer your support emails, but it wasn't

00:25:19   enough for a full-time job, you could do something like that.

00:25:22   And then otherwise, you're doing everything yourself.

00:25:25   There's a huge advantage to that, because if your revenue goes down 30%, but it's just

00:25:30   you, and you've been keeping your overhead low that entire time, not only are you likely

00:25:35   to still be in the black, but even if you're in the red for a couple of months, you've

00:25:41   been building savings, I hope, for that entire time.

00:25:44   And so you can take a couple of months of down months if you know that it's going to

00:25:49   turn around.

00:25:50   Or you can also have ways you can cut your expenses.

00:25:53   If you're on all this commodity hardware, if your usage goes down, chances are your server

00:25:56   needs are going to go down too.

00:25:58   And so you can maybe cut some of those servers out.

00:26:01   There is such an advantage to keeping your costs very, very low and leaving yourself

00:26:04   a big margin.

00:26:05   And this is one of the things that most businesses that rely on a staff can't do that very easily.

00:26:13   But we as independent developers generally can.

00:26:17   And there's never, in the same way that people are looking at the best time to start saving

00:26:24   for retirement is 20 years ago, and the second best time is today, the best time to build

00:26:30   a low margin business and to keep a lot of slack in the system and to build in ways for

00:26:35   you to maybe be able to survive without touching your servers for a week or things like that,

00:26:41   the best time for all that is now.

00:26:44   And I think too, it's the, I mean, honestly, what I like about trying to have a low overhead,

00:26:52   a sort of a, like, when things are going good, a high margin business is it is a lot less

00:26:58   stressful to me that I like that there are just fewer moving parts.

00:27:03   I'm not like I have that that slack is like peace of mind in a lot of ways that it's

00:27:12   lovely, it's what a privileged position to be able to go into my advertising rates dashboard

00:27:18   and be like, "Huh, advertising rates are down 20%."

00:27:21   Oh well, that's unfortunate, but it's not like, "Oh my goodness, that's the end

00:27:26   of the world."

00:27:27   And it's like because my business is structured such that it doesn't need, it's like I'm

00:27:34   not operating at that high level.

00:27:36   And in order to do that, the reality too is you have to be saying no to potential opportunities.

00:27:42   Like, I've definitely been in the, like, you're in the question of like, if I had,

00:27:47   you know, if I, in the periods where you have extra margin, you could take that margin and

00:27:52   you can turn it into like things, you could spend it on advertising and buy search ads,

00:27:57   you could hire more developers and expand out to new platforms, like you can keep spreading

00:28:01   yourself and, you know, reinvent, in some ways you could say like, "Well, you're

00:28:05   reinvesting those resources into your business and that's like helping it grow."

00:28:09   And like, that's all true, but I definitely, I think you and I, I think are very much in

00:28:13   the mindset that like, it's much, there's a tremendous amount of peace of mind of not

00:28:19   pushing your business to its edge on an ongoing basis.

00:28:24   That instead, like, just enjoy that, like if things are going good, like great, enjoy

00:28:28   that, and don't necessarily feel like you have to make them better and better.

00:28:32   Like and this is one of the things that I think I enjoy about, my goal is not to have

00:28:36   just like this massive, you know, like what they call it, a unicorn company or I'm sure

00:28:42   this there's a VC term for like, you know, the business that just like grows massively

00:28:47   and becomes like this, you know, hundreds of millions or billions of dollar business

00:28:50   and it's this whole big, like industry defining thing.

00:28:52   It's like, that's not my goal.

00:28:54   My goal is to do work that I enjoy and, you know, have a comfortable, you know, sort of

00:29:00   standard of living and managing your costs and managing yourself puts you in a position

00:29:05   to have that when things are good and to probably sustain that when things are like they are

00:29:11   right now and aren't so good.

00:29:14   - Yeah, well, best wishes everybody.

00:29:18   Stay safe, please follow all the, you know, modern recommendations that are up to date

00:29:22   from, you know, various, you know, CDC and WHO and everything, you know, try to stay

00:29:27   at home and try to be safe and try to take care of people around you who need it because

00:29:31   this is gonna put a huge strain, it already is, and it will continue to put a huge strain

00:29:36   on a lot of people's lives and a lot of people's budgets and we are lucky that we are okay.

00:29:41   Take care of the people who aren't.

00:29:42   - Yeah.

00:29:43   - Thanks for listening and we'll talk to you in two weeks.

00:29:45   - Bye.

00:29:46   Thank you.