0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:04I'm Marco Arment.
0:00:05And I'm David Smith.
0:00:06Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:10Recently, depending on exactly when you're listening to this, the iPad celebrated its
0:00:1510-year anniversary from its introduction into the world, which was certainly a little
0:00:21bit before when it was actually available to us, which is part of the story we'll get
0:00:24to in a minute.
0:00:25But it seemed like a good point to kind of look back and talk about our various histories
0:00:32developing for the iPad.
0:00:34And it's been quite an up and down journey, at least for myself, from the earliest days
0:00:40when it was first announced and the general sense of excitement and anticipation for what
0:00:45this platform might be, especially since it was like, this is Apple's first new platform
0:00:49after the iPhone, and everyone knows how that turned out, to kind of where it is now, 10
0:00:55years on.
0:00:56It feels like in a very different place, both in terms of my interest, the amount of development
0:01:01that I do for it, the amount that I use it.
0:01:04And that just seemed like an interesting thing to look back, because I think even beyond
0:01:06just the interesting topicalness of talking about the iPad, we are constantly in this
0:01:13funny place of trying to decide where we want to put our efforts and what we want to work
0:01:18on.
0:01:19And I think sometimes looking back is helpful to just kind of hopefully learn some lessons
0:01:22about where we went wrong, where we went right in the case of the iPad and how that might
0:01:27apply in our futures.
0:01:29The conditions around when the iPad launched were so unusual.
0:01:33I mean, as you said, it was the first big platform after the iPhone.
0:01:37And unlike the iPhone, the iPad had two big things that were different.
0:01:42Number one, we already knew that the iPhone was a huge hit.
0:01:46So we had a pretty good idea the iPad was probably going to be a huge hit too.
0:01:50And number two, the iPad was launching on day one with the App Store.
0:01:54The iPhone didn't.
0:01:55The iPhone became a huge hit on its own before anybody could make third party apps.
0:01:59And then we had the SDK that we could use as the betas on our actual iPhones that we
0:02:04owned for a while, for a few months, and then we could release these apps to the store.
0:02:08The iPad app store dynamic was totally different.
0:02:11The iPad was launching with the App Store on day one.
0:02:14We did have a beta SDK that we could develop apps with, but we didn't have beta hardware.
0:02:19So we couldn't test out our apps beforehand.
0:02:21So we could develop iPad apps, but without ever having used an iPad.
0:02:26And we could ship them to be in the store on day one.
0:02:29And we knew from the App Store performance on the iPhone, we knew that we probably should
0:02:34be there on day one.
0:02:35It just gets a huge opportunity for tons of sales.
0:02:37Everyone's going to be buying iPads, and they're going to want to fill them up with
0:02:40apps as soon as they bring them home.
0:02:43Or they're going to want iPad versions of their iPhone apps that they've been used
0:02:46to.
0:02:47So it was a huge opportunity for developers, but we had no idea how our apps would actually
0:02:52be on an iPad except what the iOS simulator would show us on our computers.
0:02:57But that's very different.
0:02:59And I remember, so this was, I was working at Tumblr at the time, but I was working on
0:03:05the side on Instapaper.
0:03:08It was doing well on the phone.
0:03:10And on the iPad, I knew I had to be there on day one, because I knew this was going
0:03:13to be pretty good as a reading device, or as a web article reading and browsing device.
0:03:19I better have Instapaper there on day one.
0:03:22And the problem was, my first version of it was awful.
0:03:26Because I didn't even have an iPad to test on, so my first version of Instapaper for
0:03:30iPad, it was literally just the blown up iPhone app.
0:03:33Because I didn't really know what else to do.
0:03:35So it had the same navigation bar on top, giant stretched out toolbar on the bottom
0:03:40that was super wide.
0:03:42I didn't use split views, it was just one big screen, one big list.
0:03:47It was a mess.
0:03:50But I had no idea.
0:03:53How is this going to work?
0:03:54How do you hold this device?
0:03:56How big do things need to be?
0:03:59And that was one of the biggest challenges of just figuring out basic ergonomics and
0:04:05scale.
0:04:06Because you can kind of make the UI look alright in the simulator and have a good idea of how
0:04:10it will look, but you don't know is this going to be way too small or way too big?
0:04:15Are these touch targets going to be too hard to hit or annoying or are you going to have
0:04:18to move your hand halfway across the screen every time you do this?
0:04:20Is that going to be annoying?
0:04:22It was such a weird thing.
0:04:24And the responsible thing to do probably would have been to, from an app design and quality
0:04:30perspective, to just wait until it came out and start UI development then when you could
0:04:34get your hands on one and actually do it on the device.
0:04:38But that was too much of a miss for this opportunity of being there on day one that I know very
0:04:45few people who took that route and didn't regret it later.
0:04:48Almost everyone I know who succeeded with software at the time was there on day one
0:04:53with something.
0:04:54And they just figured it out as they went afterwards.
0:04:56Yeah, I think it was just raw excitement, I think it's the best description for what
0:05:04I felt at that time.
0:05:05And if I remember right, in one of the original introductions, I have this strong feeling
0:05:10that there was a video that involved Scott Forstall saying, "We expect it's going
0:05:14to be a whole new gold rush."
0:05:16It is just one of those, that was the feeling that I think everyone had.
0:05:22Everyone knows the story of the Trism guy on day one of the iPhone and how he made hundreds
0:05:30of thousands of dollars in one day and it was great.
0:05:33And everyone kind of expected that with the iPad.
0:05:35And so no one wanted to wait it out like you were saying.
0:05:38We just did all the absurd things we could think of.
0:05:41I remember I went to my kids' bookshelf and I took off books and weighed them on a
0:05:47kitchen scale until I found one that weighed about the same as an iPad and was physically
0:05:52about the same size as an iPad.
0:05:55And then I cut out a paper template of an iPad screen and stuck it on this book and
0:06:01would draw mock-ups on this and hold it in my hand so I had a feeling of like, "Huh,
0:06:05is this you?
0:06:06How big is this?
0:06:07Where would my thumb be?"
0:06:08Etc.
0:06:09And that was the best we could do.
0:06:10And in some ways, I don't think it actually ended up working out that poorly.
0:06:16I think most of the apps that—we missed a lot of things on day one in terms of the
0:06:22best iPad apps possible and that subsequently have come out—did not launch on day one.
0:06:27But I think the impression—most people's approach was just to have a blown-up iPhone
0:06:33app, which in many cases works fine and was better than the little iPhone simulator-sized
0:06:42thing that the iPad would do otherwise for your application.
0:06:45You'd hit the 2x button in the corner and grow it to be sort of like a blown-up iPhone
0:06:50app but not nearly as good as if you just blew up your iPhone app into an iPad and that
0:06:55worked.
0:06:56And in general, I think—and I don't regret trying to be there on day one.
0:07:01And I mean, I went down the crazy route at this point.
0:07:03I think I launched on day one something like seven iPad apps.
0:07:07You?
0:07:08You know?
0:07:09And I just went down this road of like, "I'm just going to come up with everything I could
0:07:13possibly think of that someone might like on an iPad."
0:07:18And none of those apps really went anywhere or made a lot of money, but I was there on
0:07:23day one and I was like putting myself in a position to—if something had caught on or
0:07:29had something had been successful, I was in the running even though I didn't quite win
0:07:35out in that particular case.
0:07:36Yeah, I also was like making paper models.
0:07:40And so I remember like I would print out screenshots from the simulator trying to match their size
0:07:46on paper to what the actual screen would be so I could at least have some idea of like,
0:07:51"Is my interface appropriately sized?"
0:07:53Or like, "What should the default text size be in my article view for Instapaper?"
0:07:58It was such a thing.
0:08:00And people were making wood mockups with like the laser cutting wood factories and stuff.
0:08:06It was a crazy time.
0:08:07But it was great.
0:08:09And being there on day one, it really was a gold rush.
0:08:13And unfortunately, I think since then, the gold rush aspect of the iPad dropped off pretty
0:08:20quickly.
0:08:21It was healthy for a while as a casual gaming device.
0:08:25That I think was one of its very most successful uses for that first couple of years.
0:08:31But ultimately, I think the iPad became a more complicated selling proposition for lots
0:08:36of reasons.
0:08:37I mean, first of all, back then, in-app purchase was in its early days.
0:08:40There was no subscription billing.
0:08:42And so paid applications mostly made money by paid upfront purchases.
0:08:47And the iPad came out and there was this question of whether you should have a separate version
0:08:52of your app for the iPad that you charge separately for or whether you should just make it a universal
0:08:57app which comes with other benefits like in the app store and everything.
0:08:59And that really threw a wrench on a lot of people's businesses and plans.
0:09:06And a lot of that has not really quite been resolved even today and probably never will
0:09:11be.
0:09:12I think it's interesting to look back on the business side of the iPad because for so many
0:09:17apps it is either the only platform that they make sense on, like something like a drawing
0:09:22app or a high-end photo editor app.
0:09:25Or it's like their primary platform where it mostly makes sense on the iPad but they
0:09:30happen to also have made an iPhone version.
0:09:32But the entire time the iPad has been out, even those first couple of years when it was
0:09:36really booming, there have been way more iPhones than iPads in the user base.
0:09:42And so the user numbers on the iPhone were always way higher.
0:09:47And so it would kind of draw your focus financially on that because you'd want to focus on the
0:09:52thing that was making you more money, getting you the most users, and that was usually the
0:09:55iPhone.
0:09:56But then the iPad, you could do really cool things with the iPad's capabilities and the
0:10:01giant screen and everything.
0:10:02But it was hard to fund that without a healthier app store economic situation.
0:10:11And we still face that battle today.
0:10:13It's actually, I think, possibly even harder today, although subscriptions and free up
0:10:19front apps being pretty prevalent I think makes it a lot easier.
0:10:22But still, those early days, I was lucky because the iPad was indeed very successful as a reading
0:10:31device and I happened to be making an app that enabled you to read.
0:10:36So it was great for Instapaper.
0:10:39It's no accident that the iPad came out in early 2010 and I left my full-time job in
0:10:45late 2010.
0:10:47Those are connected.
0:10:48The iPad more than doubled my income when it came out.
0:10:51- Was Instapaper universal at the start?
0:10:53- I was just trying to remember that.
0:10:55I think it always was, but I don't remember for sure.
0:10:58I'm pretty sure it was.
0:10:59Sorry if I'm wrong, anybody who is an Instapaper historian.
0:11:02(laughing)
0:11:03Anyway, so I made the decision to just make it one app and just make it universal, make
0:11:08it run on the iPad.
0:11:10And that, for my business, that definitely worked out.
0:11:13I mean, 2010 was one of Instapaper's highest grossing years during the time I owned it,
0:11:19possibly ever.
0:11:21And I think 2011 was the highest grossing and then it went down as iPad maniacs started
0:11:26to fade after that.
0:11:27But it was such a great market for Instapaper, 'cause it was about reading, that I think
0:11:34my usage stats a few years into the iPad existing were something like it was 50% usage was on
0:11:40the iPad.
0:11:41And given the install base difference between iPad and iPhone, that was incredible.
0:11:44Whereas now on Overcast, which is about listening to audio, which is something that is way more
0:11:49common to do on a phone than on a tablet, like by a long shot, it's something like 96%
0:11:55phone, 4% iPad.
0:11:58It's something along that range of like, now the iPad app is really kind of a side effort.
0:12:04Although I use it every day, 'cause that's kind of like how I play podcasts in my kitchen
0:12:08and dining room area, like around the house.
0:12:10But most people don't use that, so like, now my business choices might be different.
0:12:17It's not worth investing heavily into the iPad interface now, whereas it was back for
0:12:22Instapaper.
0:12:23And I did, I made a whole custom UI eventually, like it was really nice actually, and I think
0:12:27a lot of that is still there in the current Instapaper app that's out today, that somebody
0:12:31else manages.
0:12:32But it was quite a ride for Instapaper, but for a lot of other apps, it wasn't.
0:12:38It was very lopsided.
0:12:40Certain apps that made sense were basically, content consumption, content creation, and
0:12:45games did fantastically.
0:12:47But a lot of the kind of more general productivity or general utility apps really didn't do
0:12:52very well there.
0:12:53What did you find worked on the iPad?
0:12:55- Yeah.
0:12:56- And I think the big thing that, the biggest thing with the iPad was that it, in many ways,
0:13:01it reset the sort of rush to the bottom that had been sort of, had lived itself, sort of
0:13:09had gone full cycle on the iPhone.
0:13:11That I feel like the, there was a, at that point on the iPhone, we were already in the
0:13:17world of charging more than 99 cents for an application was a high price, and it was difficult
0:13:23and was challenging and free was becoming a bit more of a thing.
0:13:28And that had put a lot of downward pressure on it.
0:13:30And I feel like there was this very like short period, maybe, I mean, short in the context
0:13:38of 10 years, but maybe the first year of the iPad, there was, I think this feeling that
0:13:43it was more like 499, 999 became iPad, like iPad app pricing.
0:13:51And during that period, it worked, like I had, the most successful iPad app was a recipe
0:13:56organizer.
0:13:57And it was a paid upfront and it did very well.
0:14:00And I think in many ways it was the, it was competing against a lot of free, like the
0:14:06Epicurious, like the big recipe websites, they had free apps, but there was still an
0:14:10appetite to pay for apps, I feel like on the iPad.
0:14:12And it was sort of this, you know, and some of the, you know, there's this just refreshed,
0:14:18like interest in that from customers that I think eventually just sort of tapered off
0:14:22and, you know, the prices started to come down and then the economics started to get
0:14:26more complicated.
0:14:27And the nature of iPad apps is like doing a really good iPad app is in many ways more
0:14:34difficult than an iPhone app.
0:14:36And certainly it is a additional work to beyond the iPhone app and the iPhone app is you became
0:14:41so essential and so front and center for most of my, the things that I work on at the iPad
0:14:47became kind of this extra thing.
0:14:49And then the economics of it started to fall down where rather than being $4.99, $9.99,
0:14:54you know, it became, you know, the same thing, $1.99, $0.99 or free.
0:14:58And like the, it didn't have the volume to kind of keep up with the iPhone at that point.
0:15:04And then it kind of all fell down.
0:15:05But I mean, it was also kind of a rough thing because I remember right when it was happening,
0:15:09like there was this question about where pricing on the iPad was going to go because on the
0:15:14Mac, you know, the pricing is, broadly speaking, much higher that I think like a more common
0:15:21price for a piece of Mac software kind of in the, you know, indie productivity or similar
0:15:26kind of world would be like, you know, $19, $29.
0:15:31Like that's kind of a more like a common price and then things go up and down from there.
0:15:35But it wouldn't be crazy if you see a Mac app that was $19.
0:15:41But I feel like the iPad, it sort of right from the start almost in some ways had like
0:15:45half of its potential taken out because it seemed like $9.99 was the most expensive that
0:15:50anyone sort of wanted to go.
0:15:53And I'm not sure if I vaguely remember even too that some of the apps that Apple was promoting
0:15:58like at their events and things like that was the most expensive app that they were
0:16:02talking about and that kind of just like set the ceiling that subsequently just kind of
0:16:07felt like it's like if that's as high as it's going to go and then it just, you know,
0:16:10over the next year it just kind of fell down from there.
0:16:13Like it just kind of took the wind out of it pretty quickly on the business side.
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0:17:45of Relay FM.
0:17:48So I'm curious, the iPad, it had this amazing rise and then kind of fall into stagnation
0:17:54and disappointment after a few years from both customers and developers.
0:17:59And then it kind of went back up again as the rise of the iPad Pro has happened and
0:18:04as Apple has gone down market with some of the entry level models.
0:18:07It seems like the last couple of years I've seen a nice turnaround in sales and usage
0:18:11of the iPad.
0:18:13But what do you think, I think let's spend the rest of the episode talking about what
0:18:17do you think is the future of the iPad and maybe the present situation economically?
0:18:24There's all sorts of stuff we can talk about with the UI and multitasking and hardware
0:18:27and everything else, but just the app economics, what do you see today and what do you see
0:18:32being the near term future?
0:18:36It doesn't look great.
0:18:37Or at least it's certainly not for the small indie developer necessarily.
0:18:44I feel like it's still stuck in this kind of awkward place between, it doesn't have
0:18:52a large enough user base that is either interested in or expects to spend lots of money to support
0:19:04their apps.
0:19:05And so it's a hard platform to be motivated to try to make a run at and to get working
0:19:12on that.
0:19:14By and large, the most successful applications right now on iOS are going to be, they're
0:19:19free up front and then they either charge you a subscription or they show you advertising
0:19:23or they do both.
0:19:24That is, I think by far, the most successful business model that we have right now.
0:19:29And you can sort of make that work potentially on the iPad if you have something that is
0:19:35very compelling and very professional, like I think of the Pro Creates and Adobe and the
0:19:42really actual professional tools.
0:19:47But the awkward thing, and the catch-22 with those is you can make good money if you have
0:19:52a really sophisticated app, but in order to build a sophisticated app, you need lots of
0:19:56time and resources that you then are taking a huge risk on then being able to turn around
0:20:01and support long term.
0:20:03And that cycle of, you have to build this big, expansive thing before you can garner
0:20:12that kind of success, but you can't garner that kind of success without spending all
0:20:16the time.
0:20:17It makes me feel like the iPad is just kind of in this stuck middle ground, that it's
0:20:24hard for it to be a focus or to be a platform that makes a lot of sense, except for very
0:20:30few select things, and that just kind of limits the richness of its ecosystem.
0:20:36And I think too, while the iPad, the sales and the volume of it is relatively good in
0:20:43terms of just from a volume perspective, my expectation, and just from anecdotally where
0:20:48I see iPads in the world, is 60-70% of iPads are used as a tool for watching video.
0:20:59And probably half or two-thirds of that are like, the iPad being put in front of a child
0:21:07while they're out with their parents or getting their screen time or whatever.
0:21:14That has become such a ubiquitous part of culture, but I don't think that particular
0:21:20market is something where there's a huge economic pull.
0:21:24That is for the Netflix of the world and the Amazon Prime and there's a few other things
0:21:30like that that are going to be, who can make use of that.
0:21:33But it means that of this relatively growing user base potentially, there's just not as
0:21:39much interest in rich, deep applications.
0:21:43And there's going to be exceptions, and there's going to be people who are doing tremendously
0:21:46powerful things, and people are building really clever applications for the iPad.
0:21:52But it's not mass market, and it's not in some ways nearly as mass market as even the
0:21:58Mac is.
0:21:59I think with the Mac, while you can't do real work on the iPad, because you absolutely can,
0:22:06but I think there's a broader audience of people who are already doing real work on
0:22:16their Mac than are doing that on the iPad, for example.
0:22:19And that means that if you wanted to spend three months building a productivity tool,
0:22:26my suspicion is you might have better luck with it on the Mac than you would on the iPad.
0:22:31And so that puts it in this really awkward place.
0:22:34And personally, I haven't developed really for the iPad in probably four or five years
0:22:40now.
0:22:41I've done a few bits of compatibility updates for my older apps that I still have there
0:22:46and things, but I have no idea about how a lot of this stuff works anymore.
0:22:54I haven't bought iPads for development.
0:22:58I have one of every iPhone that exists since the iPhone 3GS in my office.
0:23:04I have an iPad somewhere in the house that is usually used for my kids or I to watch
0:23:11video on.
0:23:12It's just fallen out of my life.
0:23:14And I'm not sure I'm representative of all developers, but for me, that's just where
0:23:18it went.
0:23:19It didn't become a part of my own life, and then the economics weren't there to sustain
0:23:23itself as part of my developer life.
0:23:26Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, it's almost like on a continuum where you have general
0:23:32purpose software and market on one end, and that's where you have the Mac and the iPhone.
0:23:36And then you have the Apple TV on the other hand where it's like almost no types of
0:23:40apps will succeed here, but a couple will succeed well.
0:23:44Apple TV is all about video and a little bit about games, and nothing else makes any sense
0:23:49there.
0:23:50There's a lot of things on there, but no one does and should.
0:23:53And the iPad is somewhere in the middle.
0:23:55The iPad is a device where it actually makes a ton of sense to make your app for the iPad
0:24:00if your app is in certain markets.
0:24:02I would say definitely if it's about video consumption, absolutely make an iPad version.
0:24:08If it's about photo editing or drawing, the things where the iPad's really good, absolutely
0:24:13make an iPad version.
0:24:15But it is, in reality, you're right, most iPad usage does seem to be content consumption.
0:24:22So it's like if you're making games and video stuff, great, you'll probably succeed there.
0:24:27But if you're making productivity apps, it really depends.
0:24:31It depends on so many things.
0:24:33I think a lot of the difference is like, as much as Apple has pushed the iPad into pro
0:24:38roles in its marketing and its pricing, ultimately the majority of what Apple would even classify
0:24:46as pro work still happens on Macs and PCs way more.
0:24:52And a lot of that's because of just inherent issues with dealing with things like files
0:24:55and file-based projects and multiple apps on the iPad.
0:24:58But the reality is most pro work is done on PCs and Macs.
0:25:04And where the iPad can really shine is in a similar way to where the iPhone can shine.
0:25:08It can shine in like a casual version of pro work, like a more accessible version of tasks
0:25:14that are commonly done only on pro software on computers.
0:25:16So for instance, photo editing is a great example.
0:25:19On the Mac, you have Photoshop and you have some smaller ones, you have things like Acorn,
0:25:25Pixelmator, but most photo editing on the Mac is being done by pros in Photoshop probably,
0:25:31right?
0:25:32And those people are never gonna go to iPad in meaningful numbers, because their whole
0:25:35workflows around the Mac and everything, you're never gonna get those people.
0:25:38They don't have them now.
0:25:39They try, but they don't have them now.
0:25:41But something that, like, I don't have a pro drawing app on my computer, because I don't
0:25:47need pro drawing ever.
0:25:48But I do occasionally like casual drawing.
0:25:51And you know what's really great in casual drawing?
0:25:53Linnea on the iPad.
0:25:56And there's so many other things like that where like, I don't like, you know, most people
0:25:59don't need like logic on their computer, but they might have fun playing around with GarageBand
0:26:04on the iPad.
0:26:05You know, like, and so for like the more like, the more casual and accessible version of
0:26:10things like that, even, you know, outside of Apple's offerings, like, there's this great
0:26:13series of music synthesizer kind of apps for the iPad.
0:26:16Like I played with one called Oxy a while back, where it's like, you know, this super
0:26:20accessible simple app for making loops and music and stuff.
0:26:22And it's incredible.
0:26:23And like on the Mac, you don't have stuff like that usually.
0:26:26So like, I think there is opportunity for like productivity style apps or creation style
0:26:33apps on the iPad and for real businesses there, if you keep it casual, if you keep it accessible,
0:26:39if you're not trying to be the next Photoshop or the next Logic, like, because you won't.
0:26:45You won't succeed in that.
0:26:46And that's why I think like Linnea is a great example of like, this is an app that is by
0:26:50the Icon Factory and it's like, it's a drawing app.
0:26:53It's a really good drawing app, but it's not Photoshop and it's not Illustrator.
0:26:57And it's not like, it's not one of the, you know, Procreate, another great example, Procreate
0:27:00on the iPad is a fantastic drawing app.
0:27:02Because this is like taking advantage of something the iPad can do well and that people are actually
0:27:06doing on the iPad as opposed to like, you know, like, you know, you might get a distorted
0:27:11view of how much productivity work is being done on iPads if you listen to, you know,
0:27:15like our friends who all love iPads a lot and try to use them for as much as they can.
0:27:20But I think the reality is, you're right, that most iPad usage is consumption based
0:27:24and casual creation like this.
0:27:26And so if you want a decent chance of succeeding business-wise on the iPad, those are the areas
0:27:32you should be focused on.
0:27:34And if you want to do something like make it, you know, an entire like, you know, Photoshop
0:27:38or audio editor kind of thing for iPad, like you can try, but it's, you're going to have
0:27:43an uphill battle business-wise.
0:27:44- Yeah, and that's just like, and that's the unfortunate reality, I think, is that it's
0:27:49like you can try, but it's going to be a hard thing and it becomes a question of, or you
0:27:54could like do something on the iPhone where you have, you know, I have a node, 10, 100,
0:28:001,000 times more users who you could potentially, you know, get your app in front of.
0:28:06Like I think ultimately with me, what ended up happening is it's like the iPad, there's
0:28:10a lot of potential, but the potential is sort of overshadowed by the iPhone and it doesn't
0:28:17have this inherent sort of pull for it on the economic side.
0:28:20And so you just kind of end up like you could, and some people do, and I'm sure some people
0:28:24find success, but it's, you know, it just isn't compelling in the way that, you know,
0:28:31developing for the iPhone is and continues to be.
0:28:35- You're playing on hard mode, basically.
0:28:36If you're making an app that's only for the iPad that's not going to have a successful
0:28:40iPhone companion app, like you're playing on hard mode economically.
0:28:44- Yeah, and some people like playing on hard mode and like, if that's you, great, you know,
0:28:48like enjoy it, but I'm not sure I would recommend that necessarily if you're, you know, if you're
0:28:53an independent developer trying to make a sustainable living.
0:28:57- And someday I think Catalyst might change this for some things, but so far it hasn't.
0:29:02- Yeah.
0:29:03- So.
0:29:04- And either as SwiftUI or any of these things, like there's a lot of, it's like the iPad,
0:29:08lots of promise, it hasn't really panned out though.
0:29:11- But someday.
0:29:12- But someday.
0:29:13Every, every year of, you know, iPad productivity explosion or something.
0:29:17- On the desktop, yeah.
0:29:18- On the desktop.
0:29:19- Thanks for listening everybody, and we'll talk to you in two weeks.
0:29:23Bye.
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