Under the Radar

173: Summer Report Card


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04   I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05   I'm David Smith.

00:00:06   Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10   So before we dive into our main topic for this week, which is going to be talking about

00:00:14   how our summers went with iOS 13, some sort of last minute rumor roundup things, we just

00:00:18   wanted to mention that we're towards the end of the Relay FM membership drive.

00:00:24   And if you don't know what membership is, so membership is a way for listeners of the

00:00:28   shows on Relay FM to support the shows more directly rather than just the typical sponsorship-based

00:00:35   model.

00:00:36   And membership starts at $5 a month, and if you become a member, it gives you access to

00:00:41   a variety of things, including a monthly behind the scenes newsletter, you get 5K desktop

00:00:46   wallpapers for all the various show arts, there's a monthly host crossover show that

00:00:51   Steven hosts, so you kind of get an interesting cross-pollination of the various hosts.

00:00:56   And then also you get access to a feed of bonus episodes, and these are things that

00:01:00   are the various shows on Relay published in August and September that are just kind of

00:01:04   interesting or different and are sort of only accessible to members.

00:01:09   And the nice thing about this feed is that it also includes all of the past bonuses shows

00:01:13   that have ever been done over the Relay's last five years, and so it has a whole wealth

00:01:18   of kind of interesting and fun things.

00:01:20   And this year, we're going to be doing one, and the main topic that we're going to be

00:01:26   talking about is our earliest computers and our early experiences of learning to program.

00:01:32   So if that sounds interesting to you, certainly think about subscribing to be able to listen

00:01:36   to that.

00:01:37   And in case you've ever wondered what it's like if Under the Radar was a little bit longer,

00:01:43   the membership episode will be 31 minutes long.

00:01:48   Just putting that out there.

00:01:49   Breaking the law!

00:01:51   So if you want to show your support for this show and all of Relay FM, you can head over

00:01:55   to relay.fm/radar, and you can sign up to become a member for support this show, support

00:02:02   the network, and if you just want to understand a bit more about how membership works, you

00:02:06   can go to relay.fm/membership.

00:02:09   So it seems like we are now finally at the end of the summer.

00:02:12   Well, we are at the end of the summer.

00:02:14   We've officially kind of hit that point.

00:02:16   Kids are back in school.

00:02:17   Sadly, sort of, summer is over now.

00:02:20   Now we're heading into the fall.

00:02:22   And in addition to the more personal sides of that, we're now also into the...

00:02:29   It feels like this is one of the crunch times of the year.

00:02:32   This is the period of time where, at least I know for myself, I have a lot more time

00:02:37   in a focused work time, just in terms of a lot of the things that are just ongoing in

00:02:42   the summer have kind of settled down.

00:02:43   The kids are in school.

00:02:44   Everything's just kind of into its own routine, so I tend to get a lot of work done.

00:02:48   And this is the time of year.

00:02:49   We're about to get a whole lot of new Apple stuff probably over the next month or so.

00:02:55   So as you're recording now, we're a little under a week away from the first announced

00:03:01   event that Apple's going to have this year, which it's widely expected in which they will

00:03:05   be announcing the new iPhone, probably a new Apple Watch as well, though we don't know

00:03:11   for sure.

00:03:12   And almost certainly giving some indication as to when iOS 13 and watchOS 6 or tvOS and

00:03:18   all the new updates there are going to launch.

00:03:21   Probably not the Mac stuff, probably not Catalyst.

00:03:24   Traditionally that has come more in October in the last few years, but that is likely

00:03:29   where we are.

00:03:30   And it seemed like a good time to both look back and how the summer went, how iOS 13 has

00:03:34   treated us, as well as some of the talk through a little bit of kind of the last minute rumors

00:03:39   and things about how we're kind of preparing for the event in the next month or so.

00:03:44   Yeah, I mean, if you would have asked me, well, we probably did a show about it.

00:03:49   We probably did.

00:03:50   Like, you know, what I plan to do this summer, what actually happened this summer was very,

00:03:55   very different.

00:03:56   I would never have guessed that I would end up spending summer the way I did.

00:04:01   And what I've basically done, which shouldn't be news for our listeners, I've talked about

00:04:04   it before, is I really deferred almost all iOS 13 work.

00:04:10   I've been using iOS 13 on my primary phone all summer, and I know how Overcast, when

00:04:16   built for iOS 12, runs on iOS 13, because that's what I'm using most of the time, and

00:04:22   it's fine.

00:04:24   There's a few tiny bugs that I'm trying to fix, but they're really inconsequential, and

00:04:30   for the most part it's fine.

00:04:31   So I kind of don't need to update it ASAP.

00:04:35   The only reason I would need to would be, like, you know, for the idea of getting my

00:04:39   features out there on day one.

00:04:41   But one thing I really don't like doing is supporting multiple major versions of the

00:04:47   OS at the same time.

00:04:49   What I've done since the very beginning of Overcast, and I think I did it for most of

00:04:52   Instapaper too, is I always support the latest version, and when the new OS comes out in

00:04:58   the fall, I start requiring it almost immediately.

00:05:01   And like, the old versions might continue to work on the old phones, but like, whatever

00:05:05   I'm building, the newest update always is iOS 13 only, whatever the newest version of

00:05:10   iOS is, that version only.

00:05:11   And that allows me to greatly reduce the bug surface area, the maintenance and testing

00:05:17   surface area that I have to do, and I've recommended before, I've recommended to our audience that

00:05:22   you do that, that you require the new OS as soon as possible.

00:05:26   This summer, for a variety of reasons, I've come to a different conclusion.

00:05:31   You know, certainly over the last couple of years, the rate of new iOS adoption seems

00:05:38   to have slowed down, that it takes longer for whatever percentage you want to say, say

00:05:44   it's like 80% or 90%, like it takes longer to reach that in recent years than it did

00:05:51   earlier on.

00:05:53   And for that, that's for a variety of reasons that are beyond the scope of the show, but

00:05:57   so, if I limit myself to only iOS 13 for the latest version, it's more and more limiting

00:06:05   these days than it used to be.

00:06:08   And in a few months time, that won't matter so much.

00:06:12   In a few months time, there will be much more adoption of iOS 13, but assuming it's going

00:06:17   to be released probably next week, that's going to be, there aren't going to be a lot

00:06:22   of people running it next week to the point where I could safely require it.

00:06:27   And so I have actually deferred most of my iOS 13 work, in part because I'm choosing

00:06:34   not to follow that deadline this year.

00:06:35   I'm choosing not to be there on day one, and that's also in part because most of the new

00:06:40   features in iOS 13 are not things that are that important to my app.

00:06:45   The most important feature is dark mode.

00:06:49   But I've had a dark mode for years, and I don't think I could just follow the system

00:06:56   setting.

00:06:57   I think I'm going to have to have a second setting that says like, follow the system

00:07:00   setting or set it differently, because I think that's the kind of user base I have, that

00:07:03   they want to be able to customize stuff like that.

00:07:05   I know that about my customers.

00:07:07   And so dark mode, I feel like I don't really need to do because it's already super easy

00:07:13   to switch overcast to dark mode and to use a little two finger gesture to switch it back

00:07:17   and forth if you really want to switch it back and forth, but I think most people just

00:07:20   set it the way they want it and leave it that way forever.

00:07:22   Like, I don't think people are switching that often.

00:07:25   So dark mode isn't that important to me, but it's also a lot of work to adopt the system

00:07:28   dark mode, because once I build for 13, as you know, once I build for the 13 SDK and

00:07:34   ship that as like the shipping version, then I have to deal with the system dark mode,

00:07:39   and I have to deal with like what it does to the stock UI controls and everything and

00:07:43   be able to put in overrides and all sorts of stuff like that.

00:07:46   So it's basically a lot of work for something that I don't think is that urgent for my app.

00:07:53   And so what was urgent for my app, what started out as like, I was having a lot of crashes

00:07:59   and bugs and server load issues earlier this year and earlier in the summer, and so I wanted,

00:08:05   I knew that iOS 13, because it was going to have slow adoption, it was important to me

00:08:12   to make sure that the last iOS 12 version that was going to be compatible with iOS 12

00:08:17   was really stable for people, because I knew people might be using it for a while.

00:08:20   So I started out earlier in the summer doing a really big like general bug fix for iOS

00:08:25   12.

00:08:26   I really wanted to make sure the iOS 12 version was solid, and really bring down the crash

00:08:30   rate, because it was getting a little uncomfortable, so bring down the crash rate and make sure

00:08:35   everything was working and redo the sync system so that it was much easier on the server so

00:08:40   that I could support these users for a very long time, because iOS 13 also cuts off some

00:08:45   old devices, which 12 didn't, and so I knew, like, there's going to be people who hold

00:08:49   on to iOS, who hold on to my iOS 12 version for a while, so I want to make sure it was

00:08:53   as good as it could be.

00:08:55   And then basically what happened was I kept doing that, and I kept making it more and

00:08:59   more solid, and meanwhile I've been maintaining my iOS 13 branch off to the side, and every

00:09:05   time I'm like waiting for a test flight review for my iOS 12 branch, I take that time to

00:09:11   merge in those changes into the iOS 13 branch and make any 13 requests, or make any 13 adjustments

00:09:17   needed, you know, adopt some of the 13 APIs when I can, but I've been mostly working on

00:09:22   the 12 branch all this time, because not only has 13 felt like it wasn't that urgent of

00:09:27   a thing, and not only am I afraid of low adoption at first, so I don't really want to require

00:09:31   it really soon, but also all the iOS 13 stuff has just felt like building on quicksand.

00:09:39   You know, it's been, as we've mentioned, it's been a pretty rough beta season for, like,

00:09:43   you know, stability, quality, change, you know, I guess like, yeah, like changing stuff

00:09:49   under you, and a lot of the new stuff that I thought I was going to adopt really quickly,

00:09:53   like SwiftUI, making a whole new watch out, like, SwiftUI is super young, and I'd rather

00:09:58   wait a little bit, maybe like, maybe a year, I'd rather wait until it's like more stable,

00:10:03   because where it is now takes a lot of effort, and a lot of upkeep and maintenance, because

00:10:08   you have to keep keeping up with all the changes as it matures, and as it changes, just like

00:10:13   Swift was, you know, when it was in its first year, and so I could choose to either build,

00:10:19   you know, put all my effort basically into building on quicksand all summer, and deal

00:10:24   with all the churn of that, and all the overhead of that, and the frustration, or I could focus

00:10:30   on the core app and defer a lot of that work until later, and because most of that work

00:10:35   is not that urgent, I chose that, I chose to defer it, so I have a really solid iOS

00:10:40   12 app going into the launch of iOS 13, and I have a, you know, very half done iOS 13

00:10:47   branch that I'm hoping to start working on with the final SDK, not running betas, you

00:10:53   know, just a regular, running the regular Xcode, and this is a very weird thing for

00:10:59   me, I've never done this before in any summer, but I think this was the right move for me

00:11:04   this summer, and this doesn't apply to every app either, but I think for me, I think this

00:11:08   was the right move, and I'm basically going to adopt iOS 13 slowly over the next few months.

00:11:13   - Yeah, and I think, I mean, I ended up doing a very similar thing, and I think this switch

00:11:18   for me was the realization that in some way, like, often there's a sense of urgency about

00:11:25   adopting the new OS over the summer, at least that's a sense of urgency that I put on myself,

00:11:30   where I get this feeling that I need to adopt this by a particular date, because it's like,

00:11:35   it's important to be there on day one, and like, that's, like, that's the feeling of

00:11:39   urgency that I sort of put on myself. What was interesting this summer is, what I had

00:11:44   almost the inverse sense of urgency was that I need to make the iOS 12 version of my app

00:11:52   very good by the end of the summer, and that is in some ways more urgent than iOS 13's

00:11:59   adoption, because I'm hoping, I think I'm going to be more aggressive with my adoption

00:12:06   probably this year than I have in years past, that I will probably at some point in the

00:12:11   next few months, move to an iOS 13 only requirement for many of my apps, because I think like

00:12:17   you were saying, it is overall a good thing. I think in years past, I've been a bit too,

00:12:23   I've been too supported too far back. And I think that creates more work and more sort

00:12:28   of just challenged from for me than I need. And so I look forward to doing that. But if

00:12:33   I go down that road, then I'm in this place where the actual urgency, the actual like

00:12:37   deadline that I'm stuck on is that the iOS 12 version has to be as good as I can make

00:12:45   it. And then like that version will be sort of frozen in time for many of my users forever.

00:12:52   So I need to make sure that version is the perfect one. Whereas the iOS 13 version, I

00:12:57   have at least a year to make that version better, to make that more adopting more and

00:13:04   more of the things and to see how things shake out. And like that version has runway for

00:13:10   you know, sort of indefinitely into the future, whereas the one that actually is actually

00:13:14   does have an urgent need that actually does have like a hard deadline and situations where

00:13:19   things are going to get kind of tricky is the iOS 12 version. And so I did this very

00:13:23   much the same thing, which I think does surprise me to think when I go through, I'm sure if

00:13:27   I go back to listen to our WBC episode, this is not necessarily what we were saying we're

00:13:31   going to do, but it ended up that like, I changed my mindset to, it's make iOS 12 version

00:13:36   really good. I've had a lot of bug fix updates, I've done a lot of features, and a lot of

00:13:40   things that I think will make that version have longer longevity down the road that I

00:13:46   won't, I won't sort of be like frustrated by this version that I mean, for me, many

00:13:52   of my from just from a device perspective, like 20% of my current user base is reusing

00:13:57   phones that can't support iOS 13. So like 20% of my user base, unless they all immediately

00:14:03   have buy new phones, which I'm sure Apple would love, but it seems very unlikely, are

00:14:08   going to be running iOS 12 for the foreseeable future. And I don't know what that looks like

00:14:12   in terms of, you know, if that's for the next year, for the next two years, three years,

00:14:16   like that version of that, you know, iOS 12 is going to be around for probably quite a

00:14:21   long time. And so it seemed like it ended up just making sense to be really, really

00:14:28   conservative and really sort of cautious and defensive this year. And I think overall,

00:14:33   I feel good about it. And then I think doubly so, given the weird complexity we have right

00:14:39   at the end of the iOS 13 sort of beta cycle, where now suddenly we have iOS 13.1, just

00:14:46   like appears as beta. But we didn't, there's just don't really seem to be changes in the

00:14:51   Xcode version. So Xcode seems to still be sort of targeting what was iOS 13.0. And there's

00:14:58   a lot of complexity and things around that that I think make even like day one support.

00:15:03   I don't even really know what day one support would look like. Yeah, right. Like it, which

00:15:10   is just like there at a certain point, it's like, I'm not going to try to hit a goal that

00:15:14   I can't even like describe. And I'm, you know, it's, it sounds like things have been really

00:15:18   complicated for Apple internally this year. And like, I feel for those people, believe

00:15:22   me, but it's like, as on the outside, looking in, it's one of those, like, I don't know

00:15:26   what's going on. Like, I can't necessarily plan to support something that I don't even

00:15:31   know what I'm supposed to be trying to support. Should I be like, I have one of my testing

00:15:34   devices still stuck on 13.0. But if it was beta seven, I think beta six, and like, I've

00:15:41   turned off like any kind of updating situation for that. To try and make sure that's like,

00:15:47   I'm preserving this, this kind of rare thing that you can't reproduce anymore. And then

00:15:52   like iOS 13.1 is now like my other testing device that I had to turn up towards that

00:15:57   because I'm trying to make sure my you know, all my things work on all of those systems,

00:16:01   but like, I don't know what's just the final one, which is the one that's actually going

00:16:03   to come out into the world. So anyway, the only thing that definitely doubles down on

00:16:08   the like, this was a good idea, like avoiding iOS 13 for right now, waiting till things

00:16:13   shake out and then like diving into it seems like a good plan.

00:16:17   Yeah, I didn't even think about it. You're right. Like the whole 13.0 13.1 split, that's

00:16:21   going to also cause headaches for developers. You know, like if something goes weird only

00:16:25   on 13.0 and you can't install it anymore. Yeah, that's man. This is why like, you know,

00:16:32   the more we talk through this, the more I think this was the right decision. Like, you

00:16:36   know, iOS 13 is not urgent for us to adopt for our apps. And so, you know, the iOS 12

00:16:43   version will continue to run very well until 13 settles down and like, and by waiting a

00:16:48   month or two, whatever it ends up being, I think we can then only require 13.1 instead

00:16:54   of 13.0 as the base target. And that I think, or even 13.2, depending on how long it takes,

00:17:00   but but like, you know, we could avoid the whole point 0.1 thing and just start with

00:17:05   0.1 as the first version that we actually adopt for our apps.

00:17:08   Yeah. And it's just, it's a, it's a, it's a funny thing, but then I think it works out

00:17:13   well too that I think the mindset that I had previously is coming from a time when each

00:17:20   progressive version of the OS was major, significant, and like essential to adopt right away. That

00:17:28   there were times when like, I mean, in some ways this is the benefit and the curse of

00:17:32   you and I having been doing this for over a decade now that like there have been iOS

00:17:37   updates where it was really important and there were major up changes. And it's like,

00:17:40   you know, you think of like the iOS seven update where every, you know, all of these

00:17:43   things changed in the UIs and there's this like sense of these broad, these broad changes.

00:17:49   But like from a user facing perspective, iOS change iOS updates are much more incremental

00:17:53   now and they're much more like there's just less urgency for there on day one. And I think

00:17:59   and like they said, dark mode is the mo main like user facing feature. And honestly, I'm

00:18:05   very curious to see what adoption even of that feature among users is or like how long

00:18:11   it takes for the awareness of dark mode to percolate out into the world and be something

00:18:16   that people are looking for. And if you support and how much even there dark mode is going

00:18:21   to be something where people are doing the, like you can have it scheduled to switch back

00:18:25   and forth. Like is that the way people are going to use it where it's like dark at night,

00:18:30   light during the day? Because if that's the case, then like the way we support it in our

00:18:33   apps is much more nuanced. But if people are mostly just going to be like, Oh, I like dark

00:18:37   apps and just like hit dark all the time and just leave it there. Yeah. Then it doesn't

00:18:41   even matter if you support theming currently, then you basically do support iOS 13 dark

00:18:46   mode because from a user's perspective, they won't know any different if they just hit

00:18:50   the switch in your app once and then it's fine. Exactly. Well, response to this week

00:18:54   by Zojo X O J O. Zojo is a cross platform development tool for creating native apps

00:19:00   for the desktop, mobile web, and even raspberry pie. Zojo currently supports Mac, OS, windows,

00:19:06   Linux, iOS, and Android's coming soon with Zojo. You write just one version of your app,

00:19:11   say on the Mac. Then you literally check a checkbox and you have a completely native

00:19:15   windows version as well. And Zojo uses native controls. So your app looks at home on every

00:19:20   platform. You'll be able to build apps 10 times faster, which can save you time and

00:19:25   money. Zojo is great for everyone from newbies to professional developers alike. It's currently

00:19:30   used by over 300,000 developers worldwide from students to fortune 500 companies. Go

00:19:36   take a look at their site and you'll see just how many companies you know use Zojo.

00:19:41   It's free to use, but licenses are required to build standalone applications. So go to

00:19:45   Zojo.com/radar to find out more and you can get 20% off any license with the code radar.

00:19:55   Thank you so much to Zojo for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:19:59   So I think too, just to wind it down, our last episode before all these announcements

00:20:06   start to come, I think there's an interesting rumor that I just wanted to touch on that

00:20:10   I think is it seems like we finally hit the point where Apple may release their own sleep

00:20:17   tracking for the Apple Watch. I saw this sort of seems to sort of have it's percolated

00:20:22   up in the rumor mill where now it is not just like something that's coming down the road

00:20:26   that seems to be something that is more eminent. And who knows if that means next Tuesday we

00:20:30   get it or not, but it seems much more prompt me much more, much more likely to be next

00:20:36   week than it has been for a while. It's fair enough. And that's the same with all these

00:20:40   rumors stuff. And of course that is interesting for me as someone who makes a sleep tracking

00:20:46   application for the Apple Watch. And what's slightly comedic for me is so back in January

00:20:55   of 2017, I wrote a blog post called "Inevitable Sherlocking" where I talked about how I thought

00:21:04   that Apple was likely going to be Sherlocking Sleepless Plus that summer at WWDC. It seemed

00:21:13   like the things were kind of in place and there was enough battery life and all these

00:21:16   things that I was like, "This is coming, this is happening, what do I do about this if I

00:21:20   feel like I'm going to be sort of Sherlocked or replaced by a system function right away?"

00:21:25   Three years later, essentially, this is now finally maybe something that is going to be

00:21:30   coming. So I was a little wrong on the timeline for that, which worked out well. I got to

00:21:35   enjoy the last almost three years of Sleepless Plus without there being a native built-in

00:21:42   system function. But the concepts of that I think I talked about there still apply to

00:21:49   how do you deal with the fact that system functions are going to get more robust over

00:21:54   time and what does that mean for my application? Because the weird thing, and part of why I

00:22:00   wanted to say it today is because it's easier to say it now than it will be after it's actually

00:22:04   out in the world, is that I am looking forward to Apple Sherlocking my sleep tracking. I

00:22:10   think it will be good overall for Sleepless Plus. My prediction is that it will actually

00:22:15   end up being an overall net positive for me and my users as a result of Apple doing native

00:22:23   sleep tracking and sleep monitoring as part of the Apple Watch. And I say that mostly

00:22:28   because I think in general when Apple is able to bring all of their weight behind a feature

00:22:37   and bring that to a device, it raises awareness of it, it becomes part of the marketing, it

00:22:44   becomes part of the posters in the Apple Store, it becomes part of the onboarding experience,

00:22:49   it becomes this thing that people then start to expect as part of the device. That sleep

00:22:53   tracking for an Apple Watch becomes a thing that people think about. And I don't think

00:22:58   for a lot of people that is something that they think about right now. From my experience

00:23:04   of interacting with users, there's a lot of surprise that sleep tracking is even something

00:23:08   that you can do now, even though you've been able to do it for over three years with third

00:23:14   party applications. And so I look forward to that awareness that people will draw people

00:23:20   towards sleep tracking and towards apps like mine. And I think what it means is A, that

00:23:25   people are going to have better data because no matter how robust my system is for doing

00:23:29   and analyzing your night and trying to estimate your sleep, Apple is going to be able to do

00:23:34   a better job because they have all the privileges that I don't, they can run during the night,

00:23:38   they can do things and turn on sensors and do all kinds of stuff that I just can't do.

00:23:43   And so I think they're going to do a better job, which means that the user's data is going

00:23:46   to be better, which means that the opportunity then becomes for me to make my application

00:23:55   much more about analyzing that data and understanding that data and visualizing that data. And kind

00:24:01   of amusingly, when I started, like, so I'm in the last sort of steps of submitting Sleepless

00:24:07   Plus version 4.0, like a big major update for it, which is a little bit funny when I'm

00:24:13   like about, like I sort of had my first test flight approval come through. And then like,

00:24:17   a few hours later, I see the like MacRumors post or it was 9to5Mac post that was like

00:24:22   sleep tracking coming to the Apple Watch. So I had some funny feelings about that. But

00:24:27   ultimately, it's like this update is all about trends and visualization and trying to more

00:24:32   clearly show people data. And so presumably, Apple is going to throw their data into health

00:24:36   like they do with everything. And I'll be able to read it out whenever this finally

00:24:39   comes and visualize it to the user. And so ultimately, hopefully, that will make me that

00:24:44   makes Sleepless Plus even more valuable. Because the thing that is ultimately, you know, like,

00:24:50   Oh, ultimately, I think people use Sleepless Plus because of the way I visualize it, not

00:24:54   because of the data that I'm providing, like, you can't use it without the data. So I have

00:24:57   to generate the data myself right now. But anyway, it seems like an interesting thing

00:25:02   that is coming sort of hopefully next week that we're kind of finally wrapping around

00:25:07   that loop. And I'm finally getting Sherlocked. And I feel good about it. Like it's just slightly

00:25:13   surprising to me in some ways, but is ultimately, you know, let's see how you know, in two weeks

00:25:18   how I feel when I see what Apple does. But right now I feel good. And I feel it's kind

00:25:23   of in some ways, I'm glad that I'm about to ship a big update that I can have my app,

00:25:28   you know, finally ready and have all kinds of great visualization tools for when Apple

00:25:32   does a big, you know, push maybe this this fall about sleep tracking on the watch could

00:25:36   be a good thing.

00:25:37   That's a good way to look at it. I mean, because like, you know, like, when when I first saw

00:25:41   the sleep tracking headline blow by, you know, a few days ago, I was like, Oh, too bad for

00:25:45   too bad for Dave, this is gonna be a problem. But yeah, like, I think you're looking at

00:25:49   it correctly, which is, you know, I mean, look, worst case scenario, if if Apple does

00:25:53   such an amazing job visualizing everything that nobody wants your app anymore, it's still

00:25:57   probably gonna work on the latest watch anyway. So you have you have a long time before before

00:26:02   your market is really gone. And that's the worst case scenario. The best case scenario

00:26:06   is what you said, which is basically, you know, you people are going to your apps for

00:26:12   alternate visualizations or alternate layouts or alternate controls of built in functions.

00:26:19   And so it's not really going to destroy this app of yours. If Apple if Apple provides the

00:26:26   data. And in fact, I think you're right, like Apple's data will probably be better than

00:26:29   what any third party app could do. And so in a way it kind of kind of like will reset

00:26:34   the ecosystem of third party sleep app because there's like there's a handful of them out

00:26:38   there. And right now, it's up to you of like how you interpret the data to decide where

00:26:42   you asleep or not or whatever. But if Apple is going to make that available through health

00:26:46   kit and a standardized way using, you know, better sensor reading and better algorithms

00:26:50   and everything else, then that kind of that kind of takes away that competitive difference

00:26:54   between your apps. And it just resets the bar to be a higher bar. Now it's about UI

00:27:00   and data view viewing and graphing and all sorts of, you know, other things that are

00:27:05   above that layer. And I think you can compete very well in that area because you already

00:27:09   do. So yeah, I think it actually is actually a good way to look at it.

00:27:13   Yeah. And I think too, I think to your point about the device support, my suspicion, and

00:27:18   this is my just like, like my, if I had to like place a bet for next week is that if

00:27:22   they do bring sleep tracking to the Apple watch this next week is that it will run on

00:27:27   the new watch and the series for watch. And that's based on just in there's been a couple

00:27:33   of things in watch OS six where it they only are available on the series for watch, which

00:27:42   makes me think that that may be a way that they are segmenting capability. And my suspicion

00:27:48   is that series four will still be available for sale. When if series five comes out, it

00:27:54   creates this nice, clear marketing message of like any Apple watch you buy now will support

00:28:01   sleep tracking. So you don't have this slight necessity, which is, you know, maybe they're

00:28:05   not getting as much of the potential up sale there. But like, I don't know, there's a clarity

00:28:09   in that, that I kind of could see. So if I had to find a like guess, that would be the

00:28:13   case. And then like, to your point, I think is exactly right. It's like, then you have

00:28:16   if anyone who's running a series, one, two or three Apple watch, they hear about sleep

00:28:22   tracking, their friends can do sleep tracking, can I do sleep tracking? It's like, Yeah,

00:28:26   sure. You just, it's like, you'll just need to use the old method. Whereas, you know,

00:28:30   people on the new watches can use the new method. So anyway, it's an interesting opportunity.

00:28:34   And it's like, either I'm slightly out there, I'm just deluding myself, because the day has

00:28:38   finally come that, you know, this this life, this app reaches its end, or hopefully, it's

00:28:44   just it's a positive inflection point. And it's going to kind of hit up from here. Because

00:28:49   I can finally put it, you know, like put put aside the parts that I was never very good

00:28:52   at that, like the deep data analysis is not my is not my strong suit. The visualization

00:28:57   and trying to like my thing is always about making health and fitness data simple and

00:29:03   clear. And that was I think what sleep is plus, you know, sort of is and is it all about.

00:29:07   So we'll see. Don't forget confetti. Thank you for listening, everybody. And we'll talk

00:29:11   to you in two weeks. Unless you're a member. Right case. We'll talk to you very soon. Exactly.

00:29:15   Be a member membership is great. Yep. Bye. Bye.

00:29:19   [