Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► - Welcome to Under the Radar,

00:00:01 ◼   ► a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05 ◼   ► - And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes,

00:00:08 ◼   ► so let's get started.

00:00:09 ◼   ► So I am deep in the throes

00:00:13 ◼   ► of working on my new calendaring app.

00:00:16 ◼   ► And it's an interesting place that I found myself,

00:00:19 ◼   ► where I, for the first time in a while,

00:00:22 ◼   ► and honestly, why I'm,

00:00:23 ◼   ► like, I put all my other projects on hold,

00:00:25 ◼   ► like, I'm just diving into this,

00:00:27 ◼   ► is I hit the point with this project

00:00:29 ◼   ► where it went from curiosity,

00:00:33 ◼   ► it went from something that was just like,

00:00:34 ◼   ► oh, let me explore this,

00:00:35 ◼   ► let me, like, have fun with this,

00:00:38 ◼   ► to something that was, like,

00:00:40 ◼   ► I wouldn't say obsessive,

00:00:41 ◼   ► but it became, like,

00:00:42 ◼   ► what I was thinking about all the time.

00:00:45 ◼   ► And that is a rare thing I find for myself,

00:00:48 ◼   ► that, you know, when it,

00:00:49 ◼   ► that every now and then you'll hit on a project

00:00:51 ◼   ► or a problem or a situation

00:00:53 ◼   ► where I find that my mind is just so focused on it

00:00:57 ◼   ► that, you know, whatever else I'm doing,

00:01:00 ◼   ► in the back of my mind,

00:01:01 ◼   ► I'm kind of thinking about it,

00:01:02 ◼   ► and solving problems that I'm having there,

00:01:04 ◼   ► or dealing with UI issues or whatever.

00:01:06 ◼   ► And I remember a sort of,

00:01:08 ◼   ► I remember someone trying to talk about

00:01:11 ◼   ► the difference between a hobby or an interest

00:01:13 ◼   ► and a passion.

00:01:14 ◼   ► And I thought that his,

00:01:16 ◼   ► this description was pretty accurate,

00:01:18 ◼   ► where it's like a passion is something

00:01:19 ◼   ► that you think about when you're doing

00:01:20 ◼   ► something else you like.

00:01:22 ◼   ► - That's good.

00:01:23 ◼   ► - Like, you can't stop thinking about it.

00:01:25 ◼   ► Even when you're doing something you enjoy,

00:01:27 ◼   ► you still, your brain goes back to it.

00:01:28 ◼   ► And at least for the moment,

00:01:30 ◼   ► at least for right now,

00:01:31 ◼   ► by that definition,

00:01:32 ◼   ► I'm like, I'm passionate about this

00:01:33 ◼   ► at this app and this project.

00:01:35 ◼   ► And what has been interesting

00:01:38 ◼   ► in this particular instance is for me,

00:01:40 ◼   ► I've been trying to find ways

00:01:42 ◼   ► to capitalize on that

00:01:44 ◼   ► and to sort of fully exploit the attention

00:01:48 ◼   ► that my brain is giving to this problem

00:01:51 ◼   ► and to this application.

00:01:52 ◼   ► And in many ways,

00:01:54 ◼   ► what I found is that I had this feeling

00:01:56 ◼   ► that I wish I could put more into it,

00:02:00 ◼   ► that I, like, I wish to me,

00:02:02 ◼   ► wish my days were longer, essentially.

00:02:04 ◼   ► And this is a topic that we've talked about

00:02:06 ◼   ► many times before on the show,

00:02:08 ◼   ► where I, in general,

00:02:11 ◼   ► like for most time of work

00:02:14 ◼   ► that we do as independents,

00:02:16 ◼   ► the way that we guard and structure

00:02:18 ◼   ► our working time is something

00:02:20 ◼   ► that I think is very important

00:02:21 ◼   ► for sustainability.

00:02:22 ◼   ► And I've tried lots of different approaches

00:02:25 ◼   ► and very variants on this.

00:02:26 ◼   ► But in general, what I have found

00:02:27 ◼   ► works best for me

00:02:29 ◼   ► is that I tend to keep office hours,

00:02:31 ◼   ► that I have a very specific time

00:02:33 ◼   ► that I start working

00:02:34 ◼   ► and a very specific time that I stop working.

00:02:37 ◼   ► And I may not always work

00:02:39 ◼   ► in between those times,

00:02:40 ◼   ► but I never work outside of those times,

00:02:42 ◼   ► if that makes sense.

00:02:42 ◼   ► So sometimes things will come up

00:02:43 ◼   ► or I'm just not feeling it that day

00:02:46 ◼   ► and I won't work in that window.

00:02:50 ◼   ► But I wanna make sure

00:02:52 ◼   ► that I don't let my work bleed out

00:02:54 ◼   ► into my personal life

00:02:56 ◼   ► and just generally.

00:02:57 ◼   ► I find that that was an important thing.

00:02:58 ◼   ► And I think especially when you work from home,

00:03:01 ◼   ► it becomes even more important

00:03:02 ◼   ► to have these kind of boundaries.

00:03:04 ◼   ► But it's been tricky and interesting

00:03:06 ◼   ► for me recently when I'm like,

00:03:07 ◼   ► I just wanna keep working on this.

00:03:09 ◼   ► And how do I navigate that

00:03:11 ◼   ► and manage that was interesting.

00:03:14 ◼   ► And I think, and I'll get into it

00:03:15 ◼   ► in a bit of the approach that I ended up taking,

00:03:17 ◼   ► which I think is a useful tool in our toolbox.

00:03:20 ◼   ► But I think what is most important

00:03:22 ◼   ► is just to realize these moments when they happen

00:03:24 ◼   ► and to try and take full advantage of them.

00:03:26 ◼   ► Because I wish they happened more often,

00:03:28 ◼   ► but more often, most of the time, unfortunately,

00:03:32 ◼   ► a lot of the work feels like work

00:03:34 ◼   ► and not just like fun

00:03:36 ◼   ► in the way it's been feeling for me recently.

00:03:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, because even if you're working

00:03:40 ◼   ► on your dream app

00:03:41 ◼   ► and even if you are doing super interesting things,

00:03:45 ◼   ► only some small percentage

00:03:47 ◼   ► of the actual amount of code and work

00:03:50 ◼   ► that it takes to bring an interesting idea

00:03:53 ◼   ► into a shippable app and then support it

00:03:55 ◼   ► and maintain it over time

00:03:57 ◼   ► is actually that fun part.

00:03:59 ◼   ► And we talk about this here and there in different ways,

00:04:01 ◼   ► but it's really a relatively minuscule part

00:04:06 ◼   ► of the code that is actually the super fun stuff

00:04:09 ◼   ► or the stuff that you're doing when things are brand new,

00:04:11 ◼   ► 'cause that's also super fun.

00:04:13 ◼   ► When you're starting something from scratch

00:04:14 ◼   ► and you're working out all the details,

00:04:16 ◼   ► you aren't hitting the tedious parts yet

00:04:21 ◼   ► when you're doing all that new stuff,

00:04:22 ◼   ► or at least for the most part.

00:04:23 ◼   ► Whereas if you have an app that's been around for a while,

00:04:28 ◼   ► you're spending a lot more of your time

00:04:29 ◼   ► doing things like trying to fix obscure bugs

00:04:33 ◼   ► or paying down technical debt that you accumulated

00:04:35 ◼   ► while you were having fun

00:04:37 ◼   ► or catching up to the newest hardware

00:04:40 ◼   ► and OS releases and stuff like that

00:04:43 ◼   ► or doing features that you didn't really want to do

00:04:46 ◼   ► but that the market has demanded

00:04:47 ◼   ► and that you pretty much have to do

00:04:48 ◼   ► that you find are boring.

00:04:51 ◼   ► It's a lot more of that.

00:04:53 ◼   ► So when you're in that fun mode,

00:04:56 ◼   ► you get to ignore all the realities

00:04:58 ◼   ► of an app growing up and becoming boring

00:05:00 ◼   ► and having to maintain an app

00:05:01 ◼   ► that grows up and become boring,

00:05:02 ◼   ► and you get to focus only on the fun stuff,

00:05:04 ◼   ► and it puts you in a whole different mindset.

00:05:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think too,

00:05:08 ◼   ► it's naive, there's,

00:05:11 ◼   ► what I have found recently too

00:05:12 ◼   ► is there's even another level beyond the fun stuff

00:05:15 ◼   ► where I feel like often,

00:05:16 ◼   ► regularly I'm working on things

00:05:19 ◼   ► that I think are interesting and are fun,

00:05:21 ◼   ► but there's that even,

00:05:23 ◼   ► it's like when you're playing Mario,

00:05:26 ◼   ► you can be regular Mario,

00:05:28 ◼   ► you can be big Mario where you're feeling good,

00:05:33 ◼   ► you're engaged, it's fun, it's interesting work,

00:05:35 ◼   ► or you can be Mario after you got the star

00:05:38 ◼   ► and you are just a relentless crushing machine

00:05:41 ◼   ► that nothing can stand in your way,

00:05:43 ◼   ► and that star mode Mario,

00:05:45 ◼   ► that is the rare thing,

00:05:47 ◼   ► but it's even more of a unique opportunity

00:05:52 ◼   ► to try and take advantage of,

00:05:53 ◼   ► and I think it's fun when that happens,

00:05:56 ◼   ► it's just really cool,

00:05:57 ◼   ► and you feel like you're,

00:05:58 ◼   ► I think in professional sports or those types of things,

00:06:00 ◼   ► they talk about the concept of flow,

00:06:02 ◼   ► where you were like,

00:06:03 ◼   ► there's this different state

00:06:04 ◼   ► that you can eventually get into

00:06:06 ◼   ► where you're just,

00:06:07 ◼   ► all of your mental faculties and attention

00:06:11 ◼   ► is focused on one thing,

00:06:13 ◼   ► and that one thing starts to become,

00:06:15 ◼   ► it feels more effortless,

00:06:17 ◼   ► not that it's like you're still doing the work,

00:06:18 ◼   ► but it feels much more attainable,

00:06:22 ◼   ► and I think what was interesting

00:06:23 ◼   ► in this particular situation is that,

00:06:25 ◼   ► but I noticed it a little bit of myself,

00:06:27 ◼   ► but I noticed my wife,

00:06:28 ◼   ► who's very insightful and knows me very well,

00:06:33 ◼   ► was like, this is not the normal version

00:06:35 ◼   ► of just you're having fun and interested at work,

00:06:38 ◼   ► this is something different.

00:06:39 ◼   ► - You've become Super Dave.

00:06:41 ◼   ► - Super Dave.

00:06:42 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:06:44 ◼   ► I can't do the Mario music,

00:06:47 ◼   ► but when the star music starts up,

00:06:49 ◼   ► that's how it feels,

00:06:51 ◼   ► and she was like, what are we gonna do with this?

00:06:53 ◼   ► This is a unique kind of fun thing.

00:06:55 ◼   ► - How can we harness this energy for good?

00:06:57 ◼   ► - Yes, and not waste it,

00:06:59 ◼   ► because honestly, I've been doing this a long time,

00:07:02 ◼   ► and it doesn't happen very often,

00:07:04 ◼   ► and I wish there were ways

00:07:09 ◼   ► to put myself into this state on a more regular basis.

00:07:12 ◼   ► In some ways, and I think maybe it's a whole topic

00:07:14 ◼   ► unto itself of are there ways to out of it,

00:07:17 ◼   ► it makes me think of life hacks,

00:07:20 ◼   ► where it's like, what are things you can do

00:07:21 ◼   ► to maximize your performance and super boost yourself,

00:07:25 ◼   ► but I don't know if it works that way,

00:07:28 ◼   ► I don't know if it's something

00:07:29 ◼   ► that you can just turn on and off,

00:07:32 ◼   ► or you can do things that might encourage it,

00:07:35 ◼   ► or there are things that actively will work against it,

00:07:38 ◼   ► but mostly it's probably just a coalescence of,

00:07:41 ◼   ► I don't even know, specific events,

00:07:43 ◼   ► or just the place you are mentally and physically,

00:07:47 ◼   ► and the time you have,

00:07:49 ◼   ► and the problem and the interesting opportunity,

00:07:51 ◼   ► and whether it feels like it's urgent or not,

00:07:53 ◼   ► there's so many things that go into it

00:07:55 ◼   ► that are just outside of your control.

00:07:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's like trying to summon a bolt of lightning.

00:08:01 ◼   ► You can do things to increase your odds,

00:08:02 ◼   ► but it's still mostly out of your control.

00:08:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:08:06 ◼   ► I mean, I'm lucky to get one of these states once a month.

00:08:09 ◼   ► It's not even that frequent most of the time, honestly.

00:08:13 ◼   ► If I'm really honest with myself,

00:08:15 ◼   ► maybe one day every two months,

00:08:17 ◼   ► I'll have an amazing day

00:08:19 ◼   ► where I'm in this kind of super zone-focused state

00:08:22 ◼   ► where I'm just plowing through things

00:08:24 ◼   ► and getting a lot done, but it's pretty rare.

00:08:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, so what I thought was interesting, though,

00:08:29 ◼   ► is because these are so rare,

00:08:31 ◼   ► it's like something I've had in the back of my mind

00:08:33 ◼   ► for a long time, though, is just like,

00:08:35 ◼   ► what should I do when this happens?

00:08:37 ◼   ► And the thing that always comes to mind

00:08:39 ◼   ► is a concept of, for the purposes of this discussion,

00:08:43 ◼   ► I'm gonna call it graycation,

00:08:44 ◼   ► which I'm sure, I think you know what that means, right,

00:08:46 ◼   ► Marco, but in case other listeners aren't listeners

00:08:50 ◼   ► of the fine Cortex podcast,

00:08:53 ◼   ► CGP Grey, who's one of the co-hosts of that show

00:08:55 ◼   ► with Mike Hurley, will periodically go off

00:09:00 ◼   ► to an undisclosed location for many days

00:09:04 ◼   ► and have these kind of work retreats, essentially.

00:09:08 ◼   ► And it's a business trip, but not in the sense

00:09:12 ◼   ► of business trip like going to WDC

00:09:15 ◼   ► or going to a conference or meeting with clients.

00:09:18 ◼   ► It is a work trip whose sole purpose is to work,

00:09:23 ◼   ► just by yourself, and the way that Grey does them,

00:09:28 ◼   ► I think is very interesting,

00:09:29 ◼   ► where he's trying to, in many ways,

00:09:31 ◼   ► control his environment such that there are,

00:09:36 ◼   ► like I was saying earlier, there's not much

00:09:37 ◼   ► that you can do to necessarily positively encourage

00:09:40 ◼   ► this kind of productive state,

00:09:42 ◼   ► but there are things that will definitely take it away.

00:09:45 ◼   ► Like there are things that will definitely get in your way

00:09:47 ◼   ► or cause problematics or cause distractions or interruptions

00:09:51 ◼   ► and so I think in many ways what you're doing

00:09:53 ◼   ► is he's putting himself in a situation

00:09:55 ◼   ► where the default mode is good productive work

00:10:00 ◼   ► because his environment is encouraging of that.

00:10:03 ◼   ► And while you can never guarantee

00:10:05 ◼   ► that that's actually going to happen or actually work,

00:10:08 ◼   ► I thought it was a really interesting idea

00:10:10 ◼   ► and it's something that for a while I've kind of toyed with.

00:10:14 ◼   ► I'm like, "Huh, I wonder what that would be like.

00:10:15 ◼   ► "I wonder if it would be interesting for me

00:10:16 ◼   ► "to go on a Greycation and do some work like that."

00:10:20 ◼   ► And we sort of started, like I started talking to my wife

00:10:23 ◼   ► when she noticed that this seems like a different thing.

00:10:25 ◼   ► Like, "You always talk about going on a Greycation.

00:10:27 ◼   ► "Why don't you think about trying that?"

00:10:30 ◼   ► And we genuinely thought about it

00:10:33 ◼   ► and I think that's sort of what will unpack

00:10:35 ◼   ► the rest of this, a lot of this episode

00:10:37 ◼   ► is kind of talking about is going somewhere

00:10:41 ◼   ► and changing your context or putting yourself in a place

00:10:44 ◼   ► where you can be super focused

00:10:47 ◼   ► and you're giving yourself in many ways permission

00:10:49 ◼   ► to do that and you're having it be a intentional,

00:10:53 ◼   ► you're having a conversation with your spouse,

00:10:55 ◼   ► your children, like whatever it is

00:10:57 ◼   ► that you're making a conscious decision to do that.

00:10:59 ◼   ► Like, there's pros and cons and what I ended up doing

00:11:02 ◼   ► is I kind of went to a, I guess a Greycation staycation

00:11:06 ◼   ► where I've been holed up in my basement

00:11:10 ◼   ► for the last two days and I then decided not to go somewhere

00:11:14 ◼   ► because in the end, like, we'll get into it,

00:11:16 ◼   ► like the logistics of actually going somewhere

00:11:18 ◼   ► and setting up a productive work environment for yourself

00:11:21 ◼   ► is a bit complicated and the way the timing worked

00:11:23 ◼   ► for my schedule is like at most I could probably do this

00:11:25 ◼   ► for like two days which is kind of like the effort

00:11:30 ◼   ► of setting it up would probably have not been exceeded

00:11:32 ◼   ► by the benefit from it so I ended up just like doing it

00:11:35 ◼   ► at home but I gotta say it's a really interesting tool

00:11:39 ◼   ► that I, to like have in your toolbox,

00:11:41 ◼   ► to feel like you can go into,

00:11:43 ◼   ► when you have these opportunities in this mode,

00:11:45 ◼   ► like having a conversation with your spouse,

00:11:47 ◼   ► deciding that this is something you're gonna do

00:11:49 ◼   ► and then just like going for it, like it's kind of crazy.

00:11:52 ◼   ► I mean, and I've been working, you know,

00:11:53 ◼   ► like working crazy hours which is not something

00:11:56 ◼   ► that I usually recommend doing but I think for short sprints

00:12:00 ◼   ► it's really interesting and productive

00:12:02 ◼   ► and like I've gotten a ton done.

00:12:03 ◼   ► I think I'm getting close to the point where I was like

00:12:05 ◼   ► my hope was that by the end of this

00:12:07 ◼   ► that I'd kind of be hitting that kind of like

00:12:10 ◼   ► feature complete functional, you know, sort of like

00:12:12 ◼   ► whatever you wanna call it, like the first beta

00:12:13 ◼   ► or like all the base work is done

00:12:17 ◼   ► and then it becomes polish and refinement

00:12:19 ◼   ► and I think I'm gonna get there and like,

00:12:22 ◼   ► it's really cool for that to have taken two days

00:12:24 ◼   ► rather than taking a week in normal mode, I suppose.

00:12:28 ◼   ► - So, is it, so how is this different compared to

00:12:33 ◼   ► your regular working conditions besides hours?

00:12:37 ◼   ► Like is it just hours where you're basically saying

00:12:39 ◼   ► like I now have unlimited hours to work

00:12:41 ◼   ► and I will not do anything else

00:12:42 ◼   ► or is there more to it than that?

00:12:44 ◼   ► - So, I think there's A, there's that part.

00:12:46 ◼   ► There's the just like I am consciously and intentionally

00:12:51 ◼   ► not doing anything other than work

00:12:53 ◼   ► with the exception of like eating, personal hygiene

00:12:56 ◼   ► and going to the gym.

00:12:57 ◼   ► Like those are the things that I do.

00:12:59 ◼   ► Other than that, like I am working.

00:13:01 ◼   ► I'm like sleeping.

00:13:02 ◼   ► I did a little bit of that.

00:13:02 ◼   ► Not as much as normal, but some.

00:13:04 ◼   ► But I think the biggest difference in a weird way

00:13:08 ◼   ► is probably mindset and expectations for myself

00:13:12 ◼   ► where in general, like, you know,

00:13:17 ◼   ► there's, especially when you work from home

00:13:19 ◼   ► and you have children.

00:13:20 ◼   ► Maybe it's a little bit simpler if you don't have children

00:13:22 ◼   ► but, you know, and your spouse is a bit more self-sufficient

00:13:24 ◼   ► but I always have the feeling of, you know,

00:13:29 ◼   ► like things are going to happen with the kids at home

00:13:31 ◼   ► and I feel a sense of responsibility for engaging in that.

00:13:35 ◼   ► And sometimes that's easier and sometimes that's harder.

00:13:37 ◼   ► And you know, my kids are at school most of the day

00:13:39 ◼   ► so it's usually not as big of a thing

00:13:41 ◼   ► but certainly in the evenings and morning,

00:13:43 ◼   ► like I wanna be engaged.

00:13:44 ◼   ► I wanna be a part of their life

00:13:45 ◼   ► and I wanna be, you know, really,

00:13:47 ◼   ► I wanna be the best dad and husband that I can be

00:13:49 ◼   ► in those moments.

00:13:51 ◼   ► But I think the biggest change was that my wife and I

00:13:53 ◼   ► had a conversation and we just, you know,

00:13:55 ◼   ► it's like for the purposes of this couple days,

00:13:57 ◼   ► she's gonna treat it like I'm on a business trip,

00:14:00 ◼   ► like I'm physically gone and I'm gonna treat,

00:14:03 ◼   ► like I'm on a business trip and physically not there.

00:14:05 ◼   ► And from a mindset perspective, that was just saying,

00:14:07 ◼   ► you know, a conversation and an agreement we came to

00:14:10 ◼   ► and, you know, so I didn't feel bad when I didn't engage

00:14:14 ◼   ► with, you know, with the normal day-to-day things of life

00:14:17 ◼   ► or like she didn't have expectations for me

00:14:19 ◼   ► where she's like, oh, would you mind, you know,

00:14:21 ◼   ► would you mind picking this thing up from the store

00:14:23 ◼   ► or like things where it's like I am still here

00:14:25 ◼   ► but we had totally different sort of mindset

00:14:28 ◼   ► and expectations for that.

00:14:29 ◼   ► And it was interesting how what that did

00:14:33 ◼   ► is it meant that my, after probably half a day,

00:14:37 ◼   ► my brain sort of switched into a mode

00:14:39 ◼   ► where all I was thinking about all the time was work,

00:14:43 ◼   ► that I didn't have the background processes of home life

00:14:49 ◼   ► running, you know, while I'm doing my work,

00:14:51 ◼   ► which is normally the case where, you know,

00:14:53 ◼   ► in the back of my mind, I'm thinking about things

00:14:55 ◼   ► that relate to, you know, to the kids in their school

00:14:58 ◼   ► and things that, you know, like home life or, oh,

00:15:01 ◼   ► is there, you know, is there laundry in the dryer

00:15:03 ◼   ► that I should fold or, you know, oh,

00:15:05 ◼   ► does the dishwasher need to be unloaded?

00:15:06 ◼   ► Like those types of things that, you know,

00:15:09 ◼   ► if I were physically gone, like if I were,

00:15:10 ◼   ► I acted to actually do a, you know, a remote retreat,

00:15:14 ◼   ► I wouldn't be aware of and so I wouldn't think of.

00:15:16 ◼   ► And so it changed the mentality there.

00:15:20 ◼   ► And I think it also was a difference of,

00:15:23 ◼   ► like, it's the ability to feel okay about that, maybe.

00:15:30 ◼   ► Like, 'cause obviously in a normal day,

00:15:33 ◼   ► I can make the choice to not be an engaged,

00:15:38 ◼   ► you know, member of my family.

00:15:39 ◼   ► Like I could choose to just like blow off folding the laundry

00:15:43 ◼   ► and unloading the dishwasher or, you know,

00:15:45 ◼   ► picking up after the kids or making dinner

00:15:47 ◼   ► or whatever those things are.

00:15:48 ◼   ► Like I could choose to do that.

00:15:50 ◼   ► But in those contexts, like I would feel bad about it,

00:15:52 ◼   ► A, and like B, I wouldn't,

00:15:56 ◼   ► I would still be thinking about them.

00:15:58 ◼   ► And so I think there was the like,

00:16:00 ◼   ► because it was a conscious choice

00:16:01 ◼   ► and like we're all on board with it

00:16:03 ◼   ► and we're just gonna decide like,

00:16:04 ◼   ► it was easier and better for me to be here rather than away.

00:16:07 ◼   ► But if we treat myself like I'm away and we just, you know,

00:16:10 ◼   ► like I give myself permission to feel okay with the fact

00:16:12 ◼   ► that I'm not engaging with things,

00:16:14 ◼   ► it was, that was the big difference

00:16:16 ◼   ► that I think allowed me to stay in that place work-wise

00:16:20 ◼   ► for a much longer period than, you know,

00:16:22 ◼   ► the normal like maybe five hours

00:16:24 ◼   ► that I could do at a stretch otherwise.

00:16:27 ◼   ► - That's interesting, yeah, 'cause like it seems like

00:16:28 ◼   ► it's more about the like permission structure around like,

00:16:33 ◼   ► you are doing this thing period

00:16:36 ◼   ► and you are not allowed to help out around the house

00:16:38 ◼   ► kind of thing.

00:16:39 ◼   ► It's more about that than seemingly a lot of other things.

00:16:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think there is a lot to that.

00:16:44 ◼   ► Like it is, 'cause if I, you know, like, and this is the,

00:16:48 ◼   ► it's easier probably to avoid

00:16:50 ◼   ► the permission structure problems

00:16:51 ◼   ► by physically going somewhere else.

00:16:53 ◼   ► But if you're gonna stay at home,

00:16:54 ◼   ► but you're gonna have me or like make a decision

00:16:57 ◼   ► to do a extended focused special work period,

00:17:01 ◼   ► like it's, as long as everyone's on board with it,

00:17:03 ◼   ► like you can, I think you can still get a lot done.

00:17:06 ◼   ► And though I am still intrigued

00:17:09 ◼   ► by the thought of going somewhere else,

00:17:10 ◼   ► because I think it would be easier like to do it that way,

00:17:13 ◼   ► because there's always in the back of your mind,

00:17:15 ◼   ► as much as it's like, I've given myself permission

00:17:17 ◼   ► to not do the dishes, I still slightly feel bad

00:17:20 ◼   ► when I don't unload the dishwasher,

00:17:22 ◼   ► when I take my dishes upstairs.

00:17:23 ◼   ► And like, I'm doing a lot of like, I'm, you know,

00:17:27 ◼   ► like I'm mostly downstairs, but I'm not, it's like,

00:17:29 ◼   ► it would be, I didn't quite go to the extent of like,

00:17:32 ◼   ► packing food from, you know, for the next,

00:17:34 ◼   ► for the couple of days and like putting it in,

00:17:36 ◼   ► like putting it in my downstairs fridge

00:17:38 ◼   ► and like physically cutting myself off,

00:17:41 ◼   ► like that kind of felt silly or like, I, you know,

00:17:43 ◼   ► when I want to get dressed in the morning,

00:17:44 ◼   ► I go upstairs to my closet and get my clothes.

00:17:46 ◼   ► Like I could have just brought everything down.

00:17:48 ◼   ► - Right, you could sleep down there.

00:17:50 ◼   ► - Well, I did, I am sleeping down here.

00:17:51 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

00:17:52 ◼   ► - I did do that different, just mostly because logistically,

00:17:55 ◼   ► it means that like, I'm going to bed super late,

00:17:59 ◼   ► and it's just less disruptive for my wife

00:18:01 ◼   ► to be able to be like, you know, she's like,

00:18:03 ◼   ► I'm just not, I'm not like coming to bed late at night.

00:18:05 ◼   ► And then, oh, this is why you were so responsive

00:18:08 ◼   ► the other night when I messaged you at like 10.30,

00:18:10 ◼   ► figuring like, he'll see you in the morning.

00:18:13 ◼   ► And you were like super responsive.

00:18:15 ◼   ► I'm like, whoa, he's up late.

00:18:16 ◼   ► I assumed you were like secretly traveling somewhere

00:18:19 ◼   ► in a different time zone, because I'm like,

00:18:20 ◼   ► there's no way Dave will be up at 10.30, like messaging.

00:18:24 ◼   ► - That is well past my bedtime.

00:18:25 ◼   ► I usually am in bed by nine, and so yes,

00:18:27 ◼   ► it was, it was definitely a rare different thing

00:18:31 ◼   ► where like, I'm sleeping in the guest room downstairs

00:18:33 ◼   ► and staying up till, I mean, it's not crazy,

00:18:35 ◼   ► like I'm, I think the, I'm also aware that

00:18:39 ◼   ► at a certain point your productivity starts to wane

00:18:42 ◼   ► with time, like you just, you can't sustain it.

00:18:45 ◼   ► But I found that I could do probably a good like

00:18:48 ◼   ► 12, 13 hours in a day, and still be, you know,

00:18:53 ◼   ► so it's just like performing well.

00:18:55 ◼   ► So it's like I was staying up till, you know,

00:18:57 ◼   ► midnight or something like that, which, you know,

00:19:00 ◼   ► is much later than normal, and, but is still like

00:19:04 ◼   ► in that sweet spot of, you know, getting work done.

00:19:06 ◼   ► And then, like the funny thing is you finish,

00:19:08 ◼   ► you lie down to go to sleep, and then I have to like

00:19:11 ◼   ► force myself to stop thinking about the work problems,

00:19:14 ◼   ► because I know that I'm just gonna sit there like

00:19:16 ◼   ► solving problems for the next 30 minutes if I don't.

00:19:19 ◼   ► - Right.

00:19:20 ◼   ► - Like, you know, consciously shut myself down.

00:19:23 ◼   ► - All right, well let's cover actual travel in a minute,

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00:21:17 ◼   ► So you've been doing this like, you know, traveling,

00:21:20 ◼   ► or like kind of virtually traveling

00:21:22 ◼   ► by changing your environment at home.

00:21:24 ◼   ► I do think, first of all, that's genius,

00:21:27 ◼   ► and I wanna try that.

00:21:28 ◼   ► But I do also think there is some value

00:21:30 ◼   ► in actually physically traveling somewhere else.

00:21:33 ◼   ► Because it seems like a lot of what makes this effective

00:21:37 ◼   ► is this kind of, you know, the change in daily routine,

00:21:41 ◼   ► and the change in the, as men can literally,

00:21:43 ◼   ► the permission system of like,

00:21:45 ◼   ► kind of what you are either expected,

00:21:48 ◼   ► or what you are self-motivated to do

00:21:50 ◼   ► in your daily home life.

00:21:51 ◼   ► So whether it's things like, you know,

00:21:53 ◼   ► cleaning up in the kitchen, or helping out with kids,

00:21:56 ◼   ► or doing the laundry, or whatever else.

00:21:58 ◼   ► Like, whether you are required to do that,

00:22:00 ◼   ► or whether you are self-driven to do those things.

00:22:02 ◼   ► When you're in your home, you will do those things,

00:22:04 ◼   ► whereas a lot of times to get out of that, mentally,

00:22:08 ◼   ► you have to leave your home.

00:22:09 ◼   ► Because when you're not even at home,

00:22:11 ◼   ► you can't do those things.

00:22:12 ◼   ► Like, when you're traveling,

00:22:13 ◼   ► the freedom from those things is implied,

00:22:18 ◼   ► because it's part of traveling, right?

00:22:19 ◼   ► It's part of what makes traveling, you know,

00:22:21 ◼   ► costly or difficult for a lot of people,

00:22:23 ◼   ► but that's part of traveling.

00:22:24 ◼   ► And so, if you actually go somewhere,

00:22:28 ◼   ► I feel like you force this even more,

00:22:31 ◼   ► and even more strictly.

00:22:33 ◼   ► And I think it adds, when you're traveling somewhere,

00:22:35 ◼   ► there's the element of the money cost.

00:22:37 ◼   ► Like, you are actually costing yourself money,

00:22:39 ◼   ► like you're by staying in a hotel,

00:22:41 ◼   ► or flying somewhere, or whatever else,

00:22:43 ◼   ► or taking a train, or whatever it is.

00:22:45 ◼   ► Like, you're probably spending money to do it.

00:22:48 ◼   ► And so I feel like that even also helps justify, like,

00:22:52 ◼   ► in your mind, it's like, I bought this trip

00:22:54 ◼   ► to do this thing, this is the purpose of this trip.

00:22:57 ◼   ► And so, if you take any of that time on that trip

00:23:01 ◼   ► doing things that aren't the purpose that you bought it for,

00:23:04 ◼   ► you kind of feel like you're wasting it.

00:23:06 ◼   ► You feel like you're wasting your money,

00:23:07 ◼   ► and so that can be also a very powerful motivator.

00:23:09 ◼   ► That's why I recommend that if people go to,

00:23:14 ◼   ► if people want to see WWDC sessions,

00:23:16 ◼   ► try to go to WWDC if you can,

00:23:17 ◼   ► because you spend so much time and money to be there,

00:23:22 ◼   ► that when you are at WWDC, you go to all the sessions,

00:23:26 ◼   ► because that's what you're there for.

00:23:28 ◼   ► Right, like, you feel bad if you miss a slot,

00:23:31 ◼   ► because that's what you're there for.

00:23:32 ◼   ► So you end up seeing way more sessions,

00:23:34 ◼   ► and being in labs and everything,

00:23:35 ◼   ► you get way more out of the conference that way

00:23:38 ◼   ► than you do just by telling yourself,

00:23:40 ◼   ► I'll watch the videos later,

00:23:41 ◼   ► because how often do you actually do that,

00:23:43 ◼   ► how many videos do you actually see,

00:23:44 ◼   ► whereas like, if you are there paying for it,

00:23:46 ◼   ► you will see a lot more.

00:23:47 ◼   ► And so if you can take advantage of, like,

00:23:49 ◼   ► that financial incentive also,

00:23:51 ◼   ► when you're talking about work vacations,

00:23:54 ◼   ► I feel like that's, it makes this less accessible,

00:23:56 ◼   ► and it's harder to do it frequently for a lot of people,

00:24:00 ◼   ► but that adds a powerful motivator of like,

00:24:03 ◼   ► you don't want to waste your money,

00:24:05 ◼   ► and so you force yourself,

00:24:07 ◼   ► not only do you get the automatic permission

00:24:09 ◼   ► to not do stuff at home,

00:24:11 ◼   ► but you force yourself even in a stronger way

00:24:14 ◼   ► to focus on the work that you went there to do.

00:24:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think, like, I strongly considered

00:24:19 ◼   ► for this particular,

00:24:22 ◼   ► this work session, going somewhere,

00:24:24 ◼   ► and I mean, we even thought of just like,

00:24:25 ◼   ► there's a hotel not far away

00:24:28 ◼   ► that I could very easily have just gone to,

00:24:31 ◼   ► and like, you know, has a little kitchenette,

00:24:32 ◼   ► and like, kind of lived in there,

00:24:34 ◼   ► and I think there is definitely like, that is,

00:24:37 ◼   ► and like, honestly, I think I'm very intrigued

00:24:39 ◼   ► the next time I kind of find myself in this situation

00:24:42 ◼   ► to try the going somewhere version,

00:24:44 ◼   ► 'cause I think it might be like,

00:24:45 ◼   ► this was a taster, and I think I liked that it worked,

00:24:48 ◼   ► because part of me was just worried

00:24:50 ◼   ► that I would like, go somewhere else,

00:24:52 ◼   ► or try something, like try this,

00:24:54 ◼   ► and it just wouldn't work, and I'd feel like, I'd feel bad.

00:24:57 ◼   ► Like, if, you know, the, it wouldn't,

00:24:59 ◼   ► I wouldn't be productive,

00:25:00 ◼   ► and it would just kind of fall apart,

00:25:01 ◼   ► and I think it didn't happen,

00:25:03 ◼   ► like, it was productive, it got a ton done,

00:25:05 ◼   ► and I really enjoyed it,

00:25:06 ◼   ► and so I think finding an opportunity to do it

00:25:08 ◼   ► and actually going somewhere would make a lot of sense,

00:25:11 ◼   ► but like, one of the big things, though,

00:25:12 ◼   ► that I was kind of curious how your perspective on this,

00:25:15 ◼   ► because one of the biggest things in my mind, though,

00:25:18 ◼   ► or for why I didn't really want to go somewhere,

00:25:20 ◼   ► is that I feel like it's hard to,

00:25:23 ◼   ► like, recreate the physical work environment

00:25:27 ◼   ► that like, you can tune and tailor at home,

00:25:29 ◼   ► and I know this is something that you've had to deal with,

00:25:30 ◼   ► with your, like, you have a,

00:25:33 ◼   ► sort of a place that you go in the summer

00:25:34 ◼   ► for a long, for long periods of time,

00:25:36 ◼   ► and to do work there, and all the,

00:25:38 ◼   ► sort of the gyrations and things you had to do to get there,

00:25:40 ◼   ► like, in my mind, I was like, I'm gonna be like,

00:25:42 ◼   ► putting my iMac Pro in my car,

00:25:44 ◼   ► and like, driving it over with me,

00:25:46 ◼   ► and like, carrying it upstairs,

00:25:47 ◼   ► and, you know, setting it up on a, you know,

00:25:48 ◼   ► like a hotel desk, and kind of like,

00:25:50 ◼   ► hoping that would work, but like, that's in some ways,

00:25:53 ◼   ► like, I think going somewhere would be awesome,

00:25:55 ◼   ► but the logistics of actually making that happen,

00:25:57 ◼   ► and like, having reliable internet,

00:25:58 ◼   ► and all that kind of stuff is,

00:26:00 ◼   ► they're the things that I found to be the most,

00:26:02 ◼   ► sort of like, concerning for whether

00:26:04 ◼   ► I would actually get there and be frustrated,

00:26:05 ◼   ► like, if I tried to work on a, you know,

00:26:07 ◼   ► work, if I tried to work on a MacBook Pro,

00:26:09 ◼   ► when I'm used to working on an iMac Pro,

00:26:11 ◼   ► like, I don't wanna have things like that

00:26:13 ◼   ► that would annoy me, and kind of break that flow state

00:26:16 ◼   ► that I'm hoping for.

00:26:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, that, I mean, that depends a lot

00:26:19 ◼   ► on the kind of work you need to be doing.

00:26:21 ◼   ► You know, like, in, for our friend Gray,

00:26:24 ◼   ► like, he's usually doing writing work

00:26:25 ◼   ► when he's doing these kind of things,

00:26:26 ◼   ► and so that, you know, it's easier to move

00:26:29 ◼   ► writing work somewhere because it's less dependent

00:26:31 ◼   ► on things like, you know, large monitors,

00:26:34 ◼   ► fast computer performance, fast internet speeds, et cetera,

00:26:37 ◼   ► and so, like, it's easier, like, for me,

00:26:40 ◼   ► I would have a hard time doing this for some things,

00:26:42 ◼   ► but like, you know, sometimes, like,

00:26:43 ◼   ► if I'm like, on a plane, and I'm just on my laptop

00:26:46 ◼   ► with no internet connectivity, I end up getting

00:26:48 ◼   ► way more work done than I think I will.

00:26:50 ◼   ► Not, I mean, sometimes I just get nothing done,

00:26:52 ◼   ► but like, but a lot of times I get a lot of work done,

00:26:55 ◼   ► because it, like, I realize, like,

00:26:58 ◼   ► a lot of that stuff doesn't matter

00:26:59 ◼   ► for a lot of the work I do.

00:27:00 ◼   ► Like, sometimes I need ridiculous horsepower,

00:27:03 ◼   ► ridiculous screen space, you know,

00:27:04 ◼   ► huge amounts of connectivity and everything.

00:27:07 ◼   ► Sometimes I just don't.

00:27:08 ◼   ► Sometimes I can, like, I can take a span of six hours

00:27:11 ◼   ► where I'm not connected to anything,

00:27:12 ◼   ► and get a lot done on something

00:27:14 ◼   ► that I can just do totally offline,

00:27:16 ◼   ► and with a small screen, with a crappy keyboard, et cetera.

00:27:19 ◼   ► I think for, if you're talking about doing something

00:27:21 ◼   ► for, like, multiple days, I would have a bigger challenge

00:27:24 ◼   ► with the ergonomics of the whole thing.

00:27:26 ◼   ► Like, you know, you're gonna be sitting

00:27:27 ◼   ► in some crappy chair at some weird height desk

00:27:30 ◼   ► using a laptop keyboard full-time

00:27:32 ◼   ► instead of my nice big ergonomic keyboard.

00:27:34 ◼   ► Like, that I think would get to me

00:27:36 ◼   ► sooner than anything else would.

00:27:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think that was honestly

00:27:39 ◼   ► something that, like, I worried about.

00:27:40 ◼   ► Like, you kind of, like, you'd start looking at the pictures

00:27:43 ◼   ► of, like, you know, the hotel picture of, like,

00:27:45 ◼   ► well, what, like, how kind of a desk is that?

00:27:47 ◼   ► What kind of a chair is that?

00:27:49 ◼   ► Like, is it, you know, how much could you adjust and do it?

00:27:52 ◼   ► And, like, I mean, honestly, there was a point of me

00:27:53 ◼   ► that was always like, I wonder how crazy it would be

00:27:56 ◼   ► to, like, bring my nice fancy chair with me.

00:27:58 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:27:59 ◼   ► And, like--

00:28:00 ◼   ► - I feel like the iMac you could pull off,

00:28:01 ◼   ► the chair, that might be too far.

00:28:04 ◼   ► - I don't know, like, but the thing is,

00:28:05 ◼   ► like, if I was gonna go for a week, like, say, like,

00:28:08 ◼   ► say a scenario like this happened in the future,

00:28:09 ◼   ► and I was like, I'm gonna go for a week somewhere

00:28:11 ◼   ► and do something.

00:28:12 ◼   ► Like, is it crazy?

00:28:13 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:28:14 ◼   ► Like, it would be a little bit crazy,

00:28:15 ◼   ► but, like, the whole point is to surround yourself

00:28:18 ◼   ► with everything that's gonna make you, like,

00:28:20 ◼   ► the most productive per version of yourself.

00:28:23 ◼   ► And, you know, I think for me, like, you know,

00:28:24 ◼   ► I really love the chair that I have.

00:28:26 ◼   ► It's a Herman Miller Embody chair, in case you're wondering.

00:28:30 ◼   ► I love that chair.

00:28:31 ◼   ► Maybe I should, maybe I would bring it.

00:28:31 ◼   ► And, like, it gets a little bit silly,

00:28:33 ◼   ► but in some ways, it's almost like what I kind of

00:28:35 ◼   ► am starting to lean towards in my mind is, like,

00:28:38 ◼   ► the staycation version works for, like, two days.

00:28:42 ◼   ► And then I think if you're gonna go somewhere,

00:28:44 ◼   ► you should, like, go for a week, really go all in on it,

00:28:47 ◼   ► and, like, make yourself, like, the perfect environment.

00:28:50 ◼   ► And it's probably, it may not be a hotel.

00:28:52 ◼   ► Maybe it's gonna be, like, an Airbnb or something

00:28:53 ◼   ► that's gonna be a bit more, like, you know,

00:28:56 ◼   ► sort of homey that you can really adjust

00:28:58 ◼   ► and make fit exactly what you want.

00:29:01 ◼   ► But, you know, like, it's really intriguing for me

00:29:04 ◼   ► the thought of going somewhere and having that kind of,

00:29:06 ◼   ► like, just essentially just recreating my entire setup there

00:29:09 ◼   ► but just being somewhere separate.

00:29:11 ◼   ► - You can also think about, like, you know,

00:29:12 ◼   ► a coworking space or, like, you know,

00:29:13 ◼   ► renting an office in a different city.

00:29:15 ◼   ► So, like, you're at the hotel room to sleep,

00:29:17 ◼   ► but you actually, like, have a desk

00:29:19 ◼   ► in a real office somewhere during the day, I don't know.

00:29:21 ◼   ► Or you could do the other thing, which is

00:29:23 ◼   ► you stay in your nice home office

00:29:25 ◼   ► and you send your family on a vacation without you.

00:29:27 ◼   ► - That is actually a very genius idea.

00:29:29 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:29:31 ◼   ► - All right, well, these are lots of good ideas.

00:29:33 ◼   ► Thanks for listening, everybody,

00:29:34 ◼   ► and we'll talk to you next week.

00:29:36 ◼   ► Bye.

00:29:36 ◼   ► [BLANK_AUDIO]