00:00:05 ◼ ► And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
00:00:14 ◼ ► After a long summer away on vacation, for both of us really, and we took very different kinds of vacation, I think,
00:00:25 ◼ ► A few listeners were, I guess they missed the announcement at the end of last episode, and they were very worried about us.
00:00:42 ◼ ► Yeah, we both, I think, obviously we took a break from the show, but I think more generally, at least I know for myself,
00:00:49 ◼ ► to speak for myself, my summer was very different than a typical summer has usually been for me.
00:00:54 ◼ ► We spent, my family and I spent most of the summer in Europe, we traveled around a lot, I did relatively little work,
00:01:02 ◼ ► and it was just a different time, you know, time focused on being with my family and enjoying our summer together.
00:01:12 ◼ ► That was a unique experience that I've never had before, that I wanted to try, and I think it'll get into a broader topic,
00:01:19 ◼ ► but it's good to be back. It's nice in some ways to be reminded that many of the skills that I have are things that are,
00:01:28 ◼ ► like, sort of built into me now. I was a little bit worried that the first time I opened up Xcode,
00:01:33 ◼ ► after not opening it for like a month, I would forget where everything was and it would be problematic.
00:01:41 ◼ ► If anything, I was more engaged and excited to get back to work because, you know, I enjoy the work I do,
00:01:47 ◼ ► and now I was able to do it again. So that was kind of fun, and reassuring that I hadn't, you know,
00:02:00 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, I have found that, you know, whenever I take breaks from projects, and this is, I mean,
00:02:08 ◼ ► really, like, this happens on a small scale all the time. You know, all the time I'll have, like,
00:02:18 ◼ ► and I don't get a lot of coding done, you know, every week for, you know, most of Wednesday and Thursday
00:02:25 ◼ ► because I'm podcasting during those days and that tends to take up the majority of the day.
00:02:30 ◼ ► Other times, you know, you might go away for a weekend, and, you know, when you're away for, like,
00:02:41 ◼ ► You mostly can still pick up where you left off, and you probably don't think you're losing any skills.
00:02:45 ◼ ► But then, you know, as you broaden that, like, okay, well, what about if you are switching between multiple projects
00:03:05 ◼ ► I have parts of Overcast and parts of other projects that are in a language that I don't use anywhere else.
00:03:10 ◼ ► So, like, my skills in Go, for instance, which is a language I use for Overcast's crawler,
00:03:38 ◼ ► it's effectively like I've taken a vacation from Go for, you know, most of the last four years, I guess.
00:03:44 ◼ ► And, you know, there are entire projects where you have domain knowledge that you don't frequently use,
00:03:51 ◼ ► but I have found that I'm able to pick up where I left off without too much trouble most of the time.
00:04:12 ◼ ► like, if I'm away from an app or a project for three to six months and then I come back to it,
00:04:30 ◼ ► and Quitter almost certainly will require an update because I think it's going to run into the Apple events
00:05:00 ◼ ► if, you know, over a long period away, I think the general principles of how to make software
00:05:06 ◼ ► and the general, I guess, domain knowledge of, like, you know, I know things about how my apps work,
00:05:24 ◼ ► and so I know things about them, and that has come in handy, which we'll get to in a future episode,
00:05:29 ◼ ► but, you know, there's, I feel like while the specifics of the programming language might escape you over time,
00:05:43 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think it was reassuring for me to go on a long break, and I think, too, it's good to sort of separate,
00:05:51 ◼ ► there's this delightful spectrum of break that you can take, anywhere from, sometimes it's nice to just get up
00:05:58 ◼ ► and go upstairs and make a cup of coffee and come downstairs, like, there's that level of break from working on something.
00:06:03 ◼ ► You can go out for a walk, you can take a weekend off, take a day off, maybe go on your vacation for a week,
00:06:09 ◼ ► all the way up to what is probably what I did this summer would be more correctly termed a sabbatical,
00:06:19 ◼ ► And what's interesting, I found, too, is the, so I think, A, it's nice that any fears I had about learning things,
00:06:25 ◼ ► or forgetting everything, kind of didn't, aren't realized in practice, and the reality is, like,
00:06:31 ◼ ► this happens all the time in traditional companies, where new people are, you know, come up to join a project,
00:06:37 ◼ ► they have a period where they have to kind of ramp up and learn what's going on, and then they're going again.
00:06:43 ◼ ► And if anything, that ramp-up process should be streamlined, because if you're the person who created it in the first place,
00:06:49 ◼ ► it should be easier for you to get up to speed with how you think about things, but nevertheless,
00:06:55 ◼ ► like, there's always going to be that process, and that process exists at the teeny level, you know,
00:07:05 ◼ ► But what's nice, I think, too, is each of those types of breaks gives you a different perspective coming back to your work.
00:07:15 ◼ ► And it's something that I found very interesting in this experience, and part of what I was honestly hopeful would happen
00:07:22 ◼ ► is I'm coming back to my work with a very different perspective, and because I have to ramp up,
00:07:29 ◼ ► because I have to learn where I was and how things work, I'm seeing things not quite like in a completely fresh way,
00:07:38 ◼ ► but in a sense of, I'm seeing things, I'm like, "Why am I doing it that way? That seems weird.
00:07:42 ◼ ► Wouldn't it be better if I did it this way?" Like, things that I may not be able to see if I'm just in it all the time,
00:07:49 ◼ ► because you kind of just be able to, you know, sort of, you just get used to, that's the way it is,
00:07:53 ◼ ► rather than coming out of things with a fresh perspective. And so that's one thing that I will say that I think is beneficial.
00:07:58 ◼ ► Rather than necessarily harmful, that there may be a ramp-up period, that ramp-up period so far for me has not been too bad,
00:08:05 ◼ ► and maybe it was a day where I didn't really get much done at the same, sort of, my typical rate,
00:08:11 ◼ ► but now I'm kind of back up to speed, and I'm able to look at my apps and look at things and be like,
00:08:16 ◼ ► "Huh, maybe I should do that differently." And I think I'm, honestly, and this is probably something that's worth expanding on,
00:08:23 ◼ ► is I'm excited about working on my apps in a way that I wasn't when I left. And I don't know if that's burnout,
00:08:32 ◼ ► not like in the, like, "I'm so stressed out," you know, like, sort of the physiological burnout,
00:08:39 ◼ ► which is a big, serious, you know, and problematic thing that I think many people in industry do struggle with,
00:08:45 ◼ ► that sense of, if you work too much or you focus too hard or don't take care of yourself, you can actually burn out.
00:08:51 ◼ ► But I think, in my case, there's a certain amount of just burnout on creativity about a project,
00:08:58 ◼ ► that I didn't have any more ideas for what to do with my apps in some ways, that all the ideas I have
00:09:05 ◼ ► either are kind of derivative or they're just things I'm making up because I feel like I should do them.
00:09:11 ◼ ► They weren't things that I really thought were interesting or weren't particularly creative.
00:09:15 ◼ ► And I think what's very interesting is coming back to it, you know, in the same way that, you know,
00:09:19 ◼ ► if I am having trouble solving a problem, my number one tool is going upstairs and taking a shower
00:09:24 ◼ ► because I have my best ideas to solve a problem that way. Interestingly, coming, going away from something
00:09:30 ◼ ► for a long time and then coming back to it, you have a whole different set of, you know, sort of perspective on it
00:09:35 ◼ ► that has actually been really helpful for being more creative. And I have a whole list of things that I'm excited to implement now
00:09:40 ◼ ► that I don't think I would have had if I hadn't taken a break and pulled myself away from it.
00:09:46 ◼ ► If I just kind of kept banging my head against what should I do, what should I do, I probably would have just continued
00:09:52 ◼ ► adding things to the app that weren't actually good. So in that sense, taking breaks can be really productive.
00:09:58 ◼ ► Yeah, and like, you know, we're coming at this from a very privileged position that both of us are at a point in our careers
00:10:06 ◼ ► and our apps where we can take some time away and not really work for a while. But, you know, even if you can't do that,
00:10:14 ◼ ► you can at least change what you're working on in a lot of cases. And yeah, I mean, you know, not always, but if you have the chance
00:10:21 ◼ ► to work on something different for a while, whether it's a different project, a different app, a different type of thing,
00:10:28 ◼ ► you know, if your situation allows for that, you get pretty much all the same benefits as if you aren't working at all
00:10:34 ◼ ► because you are stepping away from the problem and, you know, it's not going to help to burn out your problem, honestly,
00:10:40 ◼ ► but if your problem is like, oh, there's a big, you know, roadblock I'm hitting with this one app or this one feature or whatever,
00:10:48 ◼ ► and I can't figure out how to get past it, stepping away to go work on something else for a little while is often beneficial
00:10:54 ◼ ► in the same way that just taking a break is. But honestly, if you can take a bigger kind of break, like that doesn't involve
00:11:01 ◼ ► working or programming at all, like taking a shower or like going on a vacation or just taking a relaxing weekend, that can really help too.
00:11:10 ◼ ► And I too have, you know, I usually come up with the best ideas when I'm in the shower. In fact, it's funny, like, we'll be lying in bed
00:11:17 ◼ ► sometimes at night, like right before we fall asleep, and I'll like fix a bug in my head and I'll like finally realize, oh, crap, that's what it is.
00:11:29 ◼ ► Just randomly they'll just come to me. And I used to try to like just stay in bed and try to remember it till the next day.
00:11:38 ◼ ► Not only does it never work, but my wife would notice that I was lying up like thinking about something and she could tell I was thinking about something.
00:11:46 ◼ ► She could tell I was like restless and eventually she figured it out and she would just start saying, just go downstairs and do it.
00:11:52 ◼ ► You know you're not going to fall asleep till you do it. Just go downstairs and do it and come back. So that happens a lot here in this house.
00:11:59 ◼ ► But just taking any kind of break away from it, like your brain has time to chew on the problem kind of in a background cue, a low priority utility class background cue.
00:12:09 ◼ ► And it really is very helpful and you can solve a lot of problems that way that you otherwise would just be banging your head against the wall.
00:12:16 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think your point around, like it certainly is coming from a privileged position of having the ability to do this, but I think the most important thing that I've learned this summer is to remember at any level that this is an important tool that I have in my ability to be productive.
00:12:31 ◼ ► Like in a weird way it feels like an anti-tool that like the way to get more work done is to do less work.
00:12:38 ◼ ► But strangely I think there's a lot to that that I need to remind myself of as I'm just in the normal throes of working to remember that part of what we're doing is such a creative thing.
00:12:50 ◼ ► And I love that like, I mean I do the same thing where solutions randomly come to me and it's just kind of one of those funny things that my wife has just gotten used to.
00:12:59 ◼ ► Where like randomly I'll be like, I need to open Xcode, I need to fix something. Like the answer comes to you. And I think there is that part of it is that it is the nature of kind of the creative, more meta work that we do is that it is all about these kind of like complicated connections and systems that we're building.
00:13:20 ◼ ► And I think that there are so many moving parts that it's actually really hard to conceptualize the entire problem set all at one time. And so you can kind of focus and work when you're working on one particular thing.
00:13:32 ◼ ► But over time, you know, your brain is putting all kinds of things together and it's just a really cool tool that if you take a step away you'll actually probably do better.
00:13:40 ◼ ► And usually what I find too is the solutions I come up with, if I just kind of barrel my way through and just keep at it no matter what, which sometimes you have to, you know, like you're under a deadline, you have to ship something, you just kind of have to make it work.
00:13:55 ◼ ► Those solutions are rarely as good or as elegant or as clean as the one that you can come up with if you take the time, have a balance between things. And like I said, whether that's actually taking a break from work, whether that's just trying to transition your focus.
00:14:12 ◼ ► Maybe it's the kind of thing if you have to transition your time in the different kinds of activities you do because, I mean, work has a variety of different modes. You know, it's not all just in Xcode, you're likely to be dealing with email or customer support, or having meetings or phone calls or all the other various parts of what a business is.
00:14:30 ◼ ► But like remembering that you, like bunching those things together and then having breaks in the coding part is just something that was reinforced so strongly this summer that like it is such a powerful tool to make you more productive, to work and then rest and then work and then rest and to sort of have that cycle back and forth to just allow your brain to do what it does, you know, to do what it does best.
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00:16:21 ◼ ► So one thing that I think is an interesting corollary to thinking about taking breaks is a concept that I wish I knew where I got this from, but it is something that I remember learning early on, like 10, 12 years ago when I first started going independent, was the concept of if I wanted to build a business or a vocation,
00:16:40 ◼ ► which is something that is more generally applicable to how you structure things and your mindset.
00:16:48 ◼ ► But it was something that I remember someone saying to me of like, was I trying to build a business or was I trying to build a vocation?
00:16:53 ◼ ► And in this case around breaks, it's, I think if you can't take a break from your work, you don't really have a business, you have a vocation.
00:17:03 ◼ ► You have something that you're doing and you doing it is the thing that is producing income.
00:17:10 ◼ ► And that's a great job, like many, many typical vocations that you would imagine in the real world, like being a plumber or a carpenter or any type of work like that is typically done in that same fashion.
00:17:23 ◼ ► But even in something like software engineering, you can, if you're an independent, you can decide kind of, do you want to go down that road? Do you want to directly tie your income to your work?
00:17:37 ◼ ► Or do you want to make it more flexible, I guess, that the income is able to be generated without you?
00:17:43 ◼ ► And that isn't just a question of consulting versus product, which is, I think, an easy way to think about this kind of a situation.
00:17:51 ◼ ► But I remember early on, I had to sort of decide that like, I like the thought of having a business, a thing that generates money on its own without me being the linchpin holding it all together.
00:18:03 ◼ ► And in many ways, this summer was a test for me of if that actually was true, that I was able to, you know, the sort of the business was able to function without doing that.
00:18:11 ◼ ► And I will say, absolutely, big disclaimer, this takes a tremendous amount of time typically to get to this point.
00:18:17 ◼ ► I think it's, you know, this me being able to take a summer off of work is the result of 10 years of not taking summers off.
00:18:25 ◼ ► And so, but it's an interesting mindset, I think, to have when you're building, when you're starting out independent, or when you think about your independent work, are what are the things that won't continue if you stop working?
00:18:39 ◼ ► And for me, like, for example, the things that I've had to kind of either you either have to automate or you have to hire for are, you know, what are the tasks that have to have to continue, even if you don't do them?
00:18:51 ◼ ► You know, so I have someone, or actually two people now who helped me with customer support.
00:18:56 ◼ ► I have someone who does operations for me. And I automate as much as I can basic things like bill paying, you know, if like my business credit card just pays itself and things like that.
00:19:06 ◼ ► I try to automate as much as I can because either you need to automate it or hire for it if it's a job that is essential and needs to continue.
00:19:13 ◼ ► And I think it's a good exercise to think about just what do you know, will things continue to run?
00:19:20 ◼ ► Because fair enough, like while I was on vacation, I still like check my email and I, you know, I got the occasional pingdom alert, usually about things that I couldn't do anything for.
00:19:28 ◼ ► But there's a few, none of those things were essential if I didn't answer that email right then it wasn't nothing bad was going to happen because either it was covered by someone else, or it was just not important.
00:19:40 ◼ ► And so it's just an interesting mindset. And that was just something that I wanted to mention because I remember early on that that was just something that stuck in my head of did I want to build a business or did I want to, you know, develop myself into a vocation.
00:19:53 ◼ ► And as you know, when it was described to me, I was like, you know, I think I want to build a business, I want to try and make something that will not require me and my attention, which is ultimately more scalable is better for me in a lot of ways and is better for me psychologically because at times in my life when I've been more of in the vocational mode.
00:20:12 ◼ ► So for me was when I was doing a lot more consulting or early on in my product days where I was doing everything. It's just tremendously stressful and like it's just such a harder, at least for me, it was such a harder thing to feel comfortable with.
00:20:26 ◼ ► So it's just something that I'd encourage anybody who is thinking of going into this or is already independent is to think through at least that the degree to which they are essential for their business, because a it's just I think a good useful productive business exercise.
00:20:42 ◼ ► And it's also wonderful in that the smaller you can make the degree that you're essential, the bigger breaks you're able to take, the more flexible your schedule is has so many great knock on benefits that I think are good and worthwhile.
00:20:57 ◼ ► Yeah, it's an interesting way to look at it. I mean, and this isn't to like, you know, to denigrate things that are classifying as vocations. It's just a different way to work. But, you know, the more you can structure things to not require your constant input.
00:21:12 ◼ ► Not only is it, you know, not only does it enable you to take long breaks like this or take vacations more easily. It also gets let you do less work over time, like even when you are working, like for instance, like last summer was the first summer that we were going to spend more than a couple of weeks out of away from our house.
00:21:29 ◼ ► Like we were we were going to be gone on vacation last summer for a month and I had I don't think we had ever taken a vacation for a month before, like since I was a child. So so there were all sorts of things I had to set up that because I realized like, well, I might be able to get mail forwarded, but it's probably going to be slow and incomplete.
00:21:46 ◼ ► And, you know, who knows how because our post office is terrible. So my God, I have to set things up so that it's no big deal if I don't get mail for a month. So that means auto payment of every single bill I can possibly automate. So I set all that up, did a whole bunch of other stuff like, you know, automated a few other a few other kinds of things.
00:22:03 ◼ ► And when I vacation, it was fine. And when I came back, I didn't undo all that work. So when I came back, I had a bunch of tedious tasks in my life that were automated that are still to this day automated. And it's things that I was never really I never really had like the pressure to automate them before that vacation.
00:22:21 ◼ ► But once I did it, I was like, Oh, man, why why have I been spending like five minutes a month paying this bill when I could not do that instead, you know, and and all that stuff adds up. And so what I have now is a basically a simpler life because I set things up to be more automated because I reduced my workload of little crappy errands and little things like that. Like that's that benefits everybody. Once you set that up, you can you you can basically stay that way.
00:22:49 ◼ ► Like there was a recent awesome segment on our friends podcast Cortex with Mike Hurley and CGP Grey where they were talking about Roombas, the little robot vacuums and how you know the new ones now are so sophisticated that you can you can just like put one like under a table or under a couch with a charging dock and it can it can be scheduled to just go clean your house every day and come back to its and plug itself into its own charging dock to charge.
00:23:18 ◼ ► So with the exception of occasionally emptying it, you basically don't have to interact with it. It just automatically cleans your house every day. And that's like it doesn't do like a perfect or thorough job, but it's better than not having that done.
00:23:30 ◼ ► So you have this thing that's now automated that like you don't really have to think about it very often anymore and your life is just a little bit better. And if you can build up things like that, whether it's you know, cool robot vacuums or automating bill payment or automating other parts of your business or hiring other people to take care of things that can't be automated,
00:23:47 ◼ ► whatever it is, you know, you're not gonna be able to do everything possible to get rid to get yourself out of everything all the time. But the more little areas you can find the better because they add up like all that having all that workload be behind you and be unnecessary really adds up over time.
00:24:04 ◼ ► And even the little individual parts of it like automating one bill might seem insignificant. The sum of all of them is quite significant.
00:24:14 ◼ ► Yeah, in a weird way, it reminds me of, I have a friend who works in the financial services industry, and he doesn't work there any night now, but for a while he worked in a brokerage that required people to take two consecutive weeks of vacation every year.
00:24:30 ◼ ► And for them, it was a fraud prevention scheme, essentially, that if you were doing something shady, it's unlikely that it would be sustainable over two weeks, if without you and then when you're on this vacation, your access is completely locked down, like you can't do anything.
00:24:48 ◼ ► So it's a way to prevent fraud by making sure that you're not just like, you know, you keep taking from one thing and putting into another and you're doing it fast enough that it sort of sustains itself. But it reminds me of in that same kind of way of it's an interesting thing to think of what will break if you stop doing things.
00:25:06 ◼ ► And what are you doing that you maybe even subconsciously doing that, but you just, you know, you keep doing it. You know, it's like if you if you have a server that keeps having an issue, everybody, it only happens every now and then.
00:25:19 ◼ ► And then when it happens, you just restart the server and it's fine. Like, are you doing are you having this manual intervention into this process that is actually unnecessary and you're not necessarily like and that's in their case, it's in a way to prevent negative things in sense of fraud.
00:25:35 ◼ ► But I suspect most of us have these little activities that we do that like to say the all these little things that add up to a tremendous to actually a substantial amount of work and the degree to which we can identify those and remove them by whatever means is appropriate for that activity.
00:25:54 ◼ ► Like it just opens up your attention and your ability to focus. And honestly, if I'm honest, I think what I've noticed, too, is as I've gone through the process of identifying these things and trying to streamline what I do is the degree to which I understand that I was doing.
00:26:09 ◼ ► And there's a lot of activities that I would do to procrastinate that felt like I was working. It felt like I was actually being productive because I'm doing something for the business. I'm going into my credit card and I'm paying the bill or like those an activity like that.
00:26:25 ◼ ► Like that feels like work. Like I am working. I'm actually not working. Like the thing that I do that is work is I create applications. That's what I do.
00:26:33 ◼ ► Everything else related to that is supporting activity that isn't like my work. And I think it's in one side benefit is if you can push all these things away.
00:26:42 ◼ ► It's you're just honestly at a certain point, you become more honest with yourself and say like I maybe I just don't want to work right now.
00:26:49 ◼ ► Like rather than seeking out some kind of fake work activity to make me feel like I'm working.
00:26:54 ◼ ► Maybe I do just need to go for a walk around the block and do something else or clean my house or do something that's actually productive rather than just like inventing fake work to do.
00:27:04 ◼ ► Because it's an activity that isn't actually adding any value to the universe or to my business. It's just something I'm doing because it makes me feel like I'm working.
00:27:13 ◼ ► I should also clarify while you took a low work vacation. I didn't. I took a vacation. But whereas you brought your little probably MacBook 12 inch right?
00:27:25 ◼ ► I did take bring that. Yes. Yeah. And that was your only thing. I brought my iMac Pro to my vacation.
00:27:35 ◼ ► Suffice to say that a vacation. You can also take a working vacation if you need to. But that wasn't the topic of this episode today.
00:27:43 ◼ ► But hey, I'm glad we're back. I'm glad you're back. I think it was nice to have this break because there wasn't a whole lot to talk about developer wise this summer.
00:27:54 ◼ ► And so when when we had the idea because it was precipitated by your European vacation, you were going to travel for a while and you said you didn't want to bring a microphone if you didn't have to.
00:28:03 ◼ ► So we said, hey, why don't we take a summer break? And I think it worked out really well for us because ultimately there really wasn't much news for us to talk about.
00:28:11 ◼ ► And we got to have a lot of time. You got to restore your sanity and had this wonderful family time.
00:28:18 ◼ ► And I got to do a ton of work without this incredibly long podcast every week taking up many, many hours.
00:28:28 ◼ ► All 30 minutes of our time. It takes about 10 minutes to edit. So anyway, I'm glad we're back and I look forward to the next few weeks.
00:28:38 ◼ ► Next week is going to be iPhone week. So we don't know if there's going to be any news that's going to be relevant to developers, but we'll find out and we'll talk about it if it is.
00:28:44 ◼ ► And if not, we have a bunch of other stuff to talk about with our apps. So it's great to be back.
00:28:50 ◼ ► Yeah, it's great to be back. And like you said, I think it's fun in the same way that what we were just talking about. I feel more excited about the show now than I did when we left, that it's fun to come back to it.
00:28:58 ◼ ► I have a list of ideas again of things I want to talk about. And it's like it just creates creating space is so often just such a useful thing.
00:29:05 ◼ ► And it applies to programming as well as podcasting. I should really take a break from programming sometime.