0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:03I'm Marco Arment.
0:00:04And I'm David Smith.
0:00:06Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:10So this is going to be the last in our early, last for now set of Q&A, lightning round topic
0:00:18questions as we sort of transition now into, you know, probably about a month before WWDC
0:00:23and sort of starting to head towards that.
0:00:25But I think there'd be still that last couple questions that we wanted to touch on before
0:00:29we moved on past this kind of user-generated version of the show.
0:00:33So that's kind of where we are now.
0:00:35And so our first question comes to us from Robert Spivak, who asks, "Why is Android
0:00:40so successful, and what should Apple and indie devs learn from this market reality that is
0:00:45useful to them/us for us to consider?"
0:00:48I like this question a lot because it's kind of a big picture question.
0:00:51And you almost might think it might not apply to an indie iOS app development show because
0:00:57it's about Android.
0:00:59But what it really is about is what factors make Android successful, and is there something
0:01:07that we can use from that.
0:01:08So for me, I think the biggest reason Android is successful is that it addresses two major
0:01:17market attributes or segments that Apple just will never do.
0:01:21Number one is low cost, and number two is basically in kind of a summary, like letting
0:01:28people do what they want, even if Apple doesn't think it's the best, or even if Apple doesn't
0:01:33think it's a good idea.
0:01:35And that applies to both hardware and software.
0:01:38Android phones have a huge wide range of prices that Apple will never touch, and they have
0:01:44a very diverse set of hardware choices and crazy things you can do with the software
0:01:53that iOS will never allow you to do.
0:01:57And on some level, as an indie, you always have to consider the reality that A, you need
0:02:04to make money somehow, and B, that you have limited resources.
0:02:09And so you can't satisfy everyone's needs.
0:02:13You can't make an app that can do everything for everyone.
0:02:16You can't make something everybody will love.
0:02:19But similar to what Android did, which is basically look at what Apple was doing and
0:02:26then cover ground that they weren't going to cover, you can apply that part to lots
0:02:32of things that you do.
0:02:33You know, any app you make, you can say, you can look around at the competition first,
0:02:38which you should.
0:02:39You know, look around at the competition before you decide what to work on and maybe what
0:02:42features your app will have or what the business model will be, and see like, what are they
0:02:47not addressing?
0:02:48And more importantly, like, what can't they or what won't they address?
0:02:53You know, if your idea for something is along the formula of, it's like YouTube for dogs.
0:03:01Okay.
0:03:03What happened?
0:03:04Why not just use YouTube, right?
0:03:05Like that, or it's like YouTube, but it offers 8K video.
0:03:09Well, what happens if YouTube just adds 8K video?
0:03:13You know, those are things that like, that is not a safe place, right?
0:03:18But if you're asking like, it's like Apple, but cheap and allowing people to run it on
0:03:23whatever hardware they want, Apple's never going to touch that.
0:03:28So you are totally safe there.
0:03:30You know, or in the app world, you can say it's like Apple's built-in app, but it syncs
0:03:35using this awesome web service that you can also log into in a web browser or on a PC,
0:03:40and it has features that Apple will probably never support.
0:03:44You know, so like, that kind of thing is a good place to be and a good place to plan,
0:03:49you know, competitively where your app should be.
0:03:51And then, you know, within the app, when you're talking about the actual design of the app
0:03:57and what kind of features it has, it also helps to, you know, take a clue from Android
0:04:02of like, first of all, can you find a way to make your app free up front?
0:04:06Because free is really powerful, and you will get way more people that way.
0:04:10And if you can find a way to do that and pay the bills somehow, that's a really good place
0:04:14to be.
0:04:15And then second of all, look at, you know, how Android appeals to people by giving power
0:04:19users a lot of features.
0:04:20You know, there's a lot of people like Android because it just lets them do things that they
0:04:26want to do.
0:04:27It lets them have control over the OS, and it lets apps do things that Apple doesn't
0:04:33think they need to expose to people or they don't think people are better off if they're
0:04:37exposed to them or whatever.
0:04:38Apple thinks it's making the best move for both Apple and customers, but some customers
0:04:42disagree.
0:04:43In fact, a lot of customers disagree, and they go to Android a lot of the time.
0:04:46So if you can think about your app's features in that way, think about like, are there like
0:04:51little hooks or power user features or abilities that some people really, really want that
0:04:59you can add or that you can cater to, and in a way that doesn't like hurt the rest of
0:05:03the app or that doesn't, you know, prove to be an undue burden on you.
0:05:08That's a pretty good place to be for power user tools and for specialized use cases and
0:05:13things.
0:05:14Those are all really big markets.
0:05:16>> Yeah, I mean, when I think about this, I love the first part.
0:05:21Why is Android so successful?
0:05:22And I think it's certainly, you know, it assumes Android is successful.
0:05:25And I think from a numbers perspective, that is definitely true.
0:05:28And I mean, the reality is I don't know for sure because if I'm honest, I don't spend
0:05:34much time in that world.
0:05:35And so it's hard to know as much.
0:05:36But as I was thinking about it, there's kind of two areas that I think come to mind that
0:05:42I think are potential reasons why it might be successful.
0:05:46And then things, you know, sort of that have very useful follow on effects for me as I
0:05:51think about my own apps.
0:05:52And the first one I think is the power of being comfortable with something and not wanting
0:06:00to change.
0:06:01And this is something that I think I see, you know, in my friends and family a lot that
0:06:07whatever you first learned something on, you have a tremendous affinity for because the
0:06:14effort and the difficulty of that first learning experience is so hard that wanting to switch
0:06:22and have to relearn something is often very, very difficult and intimidating.
0:06:28And this is a conversation that I've certainly had with some friends who, you know, they
0:06:31love their Android phones and I asked them, "Oh, do you ever think about getting an iPhone?"
0:06:36And it's always like, "No, I know how this works."
0:06:39And it's the realization that, you know, in that person's life, the things that you or
0:06:45I may like, you know, sort of agonize over and, you know, listen to six hours of tech
0:06:52podcasts a week diving into, like, their phone for them is just a tool that lets them do
0:06:58a thing.
0:06:59And once they know how to do that thing, then the nuances of that tool become much less
0:07:05important.
0:07:06And I think there is also something, which is important for me to keep in mind too, of
0:07:09it's so—once somebody has learned how to use something, I think there is a tremendous
0:07:15desire to be able to keep it that way.
0:07:17And so the lesson that I take from that from my own apps is it's being very thoughtful
0:07:22about making changes in my own apps that are going to break people's habits.
0:07:29And you know, the reason they may be using my app is not because my app is good, strictly,
0:07:35but may just be—they may be using my app because it's the one they learned and the
0:07:38one they understand.
0:07:39And so if I then come along and say, "Oh, I've got this whole new great thing," then
0:07:43suddenly the reason that they were using my app, I just, like, took out from under them.
0:07:47And so I think that's one reason that I could see people using Android, and I think
0:07:50there's an interesting lesson there about just having that consistency going forward,
0:07:54or at least keeping it in your mind.
0:07:56And I think the other thing too is that having—understanding that there are going to be differences of
0:08:04opinion about what the best way to do something is, that—I mean, I think there's, you
0:08:10know, I think it's easy for the Apple community at large to have a slightly elitist, know-it-all
0:08:19kind of an attitude about a lot of things, that like, "This is the best way," and
0:08:23then, you know, using that superlative, like that, "This is the best way," not that
0:08:26this is a better way or, you know, it's an improved way, like, "No, no, this is
0:08:30the best way for us to do whatever this is."
0:08:34And the reality is, for almost any feature or way of approaching something technically,
0:08:40like there's trade-offs, and very few things have that kind of universe—if you say yes
0:08:46to one thing, you're saying no to something else.
0:08:49And so I think Android, in many ways, likely captures a lot of things where people—there's
0:08:56some difference of opinion someone has with the way that Apple does something or has made
0:09:00a choice to do it, and because the iPhone is so opinionated and so immovable in so many
0:09:07ways, it makes something like Android work a lot better, where if, for whatever reason,
0:09:12the way that Apple doesn't let—only in a lot of things has forced defaults, for example,
0:09:20that like, you know, if you use the first-party stuff, it's great, but integration with
0:09:23third-party things maybe isn't quite as good.
0:09:25That's a much better thing on Android.
0:09:29And so having that understanding that people are going to come at things from a different
0:09:33perspective, I think, is a very useful thing, and as an indie especially, I think of some
0:09:38of the best opportunities that we have to take advantage of are even within the iPhone
0:09:45platform.
0:09:46If you're an iOS indie, it's looking at some of the established players and creating
0:09:52alternatives to them that are different in some way.
0:09:56Maybe they're simpler, maybe they're more flexible, but looking at it from that perspective,
0:10:01I think, is a useful place to start, and understanding that people have different preferences, and
0:10:07sometimes they have strong feelings about those differences of preference, and so there's
0:10:12potentially an opportunity in creating something that addresses a need in a different way.
0:10:17Our next question comes from Adam Fallon, who asks, "What is the biggest disappointment
0:10:22from WWDC that you thought was going to be great?"
0:10:25This was a really fun question, I thought, because—not like in a complaining about
0:10:30Apple way, but just like things that—when they launch new stuff, we all think of all
0:10:35the different ways this could be awesome, and different new markets it opens up and
0:10:40everything, and a lot of times it works out that way.
0:10:42Sometimes it doesn't.
0:10:44For me, I think the biggest one to me recently is probably SiriKit, because SiriKit, when
0:10:54I heard they were doing this, and then when they announced it, I'm like, "Oh, great!
0:10:58I can finally use Siri in Overcast," and then I just couldn't, because it was limited
0:11:04to these certain intent systems, like these certain domains of problems, and not very
0:11:10many of them, and they're pretty narrow.
0:11:13And so it's been great for my Reminders app, and nothing else.
0:11:20So I really hope SiriKit is expanded in the future, but right now it just is nothing for
0:11:27me as a developer, and fairly little for me as a user.
0:11:33I think on an even bigger scale, I think iMessage apps really—I think everybody thought they
0:11:40were going to be bigger than they are.
0:11:42And maybe they're really big and I just never see it, or I never hear about it, or
0:11:46the people who I message with or who I talk to are just the weird ones who never use them,
0:11:52but I never use iMessage apps, and I never see anyone else using them either.
0:11:56And it seems like what iMessage apps really are are sticker packs.
0:12:02The only apps I ever see used are sticker apps or sticker packs.
0:12:06That's about it.
0:12:08And so I guess on that level, you can kind of say they have been successful, because
0:12:12stickers are used a lot, but they built this whole app platform to do all sorts of more
0:12:18detailed things in messages, and anything beyond stickers I have yet to see actually
0:12:24be used in practice.
0:12:26And then on the even bigger scale, my biggest disappointment of like, you know, W2C release
0:12:34technologies has been WatchKit.
0:12:36Because, you know, I'm not going to go over it in much detail right now, because I have
0:12:40in the past, but I just want Watch apps to be so much better than they are, and that
0:12:45all—almost all of that lands right at the feet of WatchKit just not being very good,
0:12:51not being very complete or robust or even stable or performant.
0:12:57It's a very incomplete, low-priority, buggy development platform, and I just want Watch
0:13:05apps to be so much better than they are.
0:13:07- Yeah, and it's—I feel like there's this tough thing that happens every single year
0:13:11for me at W2C where, you know, there's always something new, and, you know, the presentations
0:13:19are really good and slick, and it's always kind of like, "Oh, that's exciting, that's
0:13:23interesting."
0:13:24And then I often end up coming walking away from it with this feeling of like, "I'm—like,
0:13:29the more I think about it, the more I don't get it," or the more I'm like, "Hmm, that's
0:13:32not really for me," or like, this is where I sometimes—like, so you start making the
0:13:36jokes about being old, where it's like, I see iMessage apps, and I'm like, "I don't
0:13:41really get it.
0:13:42Like, is that really—like, is that a thing?
0:13:45Is that what the cool kids do these days?"
0:13:48Like, and I think what I've started to—I used to come away from that with a feeling
0:13:53of like, you know, "I just don't get it.
0:13:56This is gonna be cool.
0:13:57I should still probably adopt it anyway."
0:14:00And I think increasingly I've come to the—more of the conclusion that if I don't get it,
0:14:06if I don't think it's gonna be—if I don't really see the immediate utility of
0:14:12it or, like, think it's really cool, then there's a good chance that I'm probably
0:14:17more typical than not, that at least there's something—and, you know, there's a chance
0:14:21that I'm missing the next big wave, but it's also just as likely that I'm not,
0:14:25and that they're actually not gonna be, you know, be this big thing, because, you
0:14:31know, the nature of these new announcements is so often they are solutions going in search
0:14:36of problems, and they're often very cool and technically very capable, but it's difficult.
0:14:43Like, I think it's in, like, ARKit as an example, which was—is, you know, technically
0:14:51very cool and can have some really kind of interesting demos, but as far as I can tell,
0:14:56you know, almost a year into ARKit, it isn't this wildly new transformative technology
0:15:03that isn't like—you know, there aren't these huge killer apps that have sprung up
0:15:08and taken over the world, you know.
0:15:10Like, the biggest example of an AR app that, you know, did that was, like, Pokemon Go last
0:15:16summer, which didn't even use something like ARKit, and it wasn't really—like,
0:15:19it isn't really AR; it was just location services, primarily.
0:15:24And like, that type of thing is, you know, I didn't really get it.
0:15:29When you start to get, like, well, isn't this gonna get really tiresome to, like, how
0:15:32is—or, you know, to hold up my phone and, like, move it around, or how is that—is
0:15:36it that much better than just sliding my finger up and down to control my viewport in a three
0:15:40D world?
0:15:41Like, it's a tricky thing, and I find, like, every single year, there's, you know, this
0:15:47WWDC, I'm sure there's gonna be new technologies.
0:15:49I'm sure there's really cool, interesting, from a technological perspective, features
0:15:54that are going to come out.
0:15:56And I think in the past, I've, you know, I've quieted my inner voice being like,
0:16:02"I don't get it.
0:16:03Like, that's weird."
0:16:04Or it's just, like, I don't see how that would be useful, and I think increasingly
0:16:08I am less disappointed in those features because I understand that they're much more niche,
0:16:16that necessarily as the platform is getting more and more robust and capable, the new
0:16:22features that are gonna be added are going to be necessarily much more fringe, much more,
0:16:27you know, specific.
0:16:30And sometimes even, you know, there are features that are there adding to the OS just to, you
0:16:34know, for a feature parity reason or as an experiment, like, you know, I don't really
0:16:39know what Apple's expectations were for iMessage apps or for ARKit, but I think sometimes it's
0:16:45the utility of saying, "We're gonna make these tools, and then we're gonna see if
0:16:49someone can come up with something that's cool about that."
0:16:52And sometimes they will, and sometimes they won't, you know, but I, like, I regret in
0:16:57many ways that I went, you know, spent time and effort to make iMessage apps and add them
0:17:01to a couple of my apps because they're not really being used as best as I can tell, and
0:17:07that was time and, you know, now maintenance that I have to maintain going forward that,
0:17:12you know, whenever I do a big update, I need to go and make sure that my iMessage app still
0:17:15works or at the very least, or eventually I may even just end up, you know, taking them
0:17:19out of my apps just because they're not actually creating this value, and I was adding
0:17:25it for the wrong reason.
0:17:26I was adding it so that I wouldn't miss out rather than adding it and adopting new
0:17:31technology because I thought it was really cool and personally, genuinely, you know,
0:17:36wanted to embrace it and use it.
0:17:38Yeah, I think for me, like, my main disappointments are when something, when a lot of the things
0:17:44that are announced are, like, those very specialized things, you know, for very specialized use
0:17:50cases, and I just have no use for them.
0:17:52Like, I get most excited about changes to things like UIKit, you know, like improvements
0:17:59to layout, improvements to Xcode, you know, improvements to the tools and to the frameworks
0:18:04that every app uses or lots of apps use.
0:18:06I get a lot less excited when it's like, "Great, now Uber can connect to your address
0:18:12book in a new way," or something.
0:18:13It's like, "Well, I don't have any use for that," you know, like, and I also,
0:18:19this is not a great topic for it to be a whole thing, but I'm also pretty skeptical on
0:18:23AR's value.
0:18:27Whenever technology comes out and people say, "We can't even imagine what people are
0:18:33gonna do with this.
0:18:34It's gonna be great," if there's not a killer app immediately apparent or apparent
0:18:40very shortly after it becomes available, there might just never be a killer app, or it might
0:18:47be way more limited than people think.
0:18:48You know, so similarly, on the same topic, I think the Apple TV as an app platform has
0:18:55been a pretty big disappointment because when it came out, we were all like, "Oh, we can
0:19:02do things on TV now that we don't even consider now," and then it came out and turns
0:19:08out what people want to do on their TV is watch video and play games.
0:19:12That's about it.
0:19:13Like, those are two big things that we already knew about that the App Store didn't change.
0:19:18It just made it more accessible, and all these, like, you know, new things we can't even
0:19:23think of, well, we didn't think of any.
0:19:25And I think AR has a similar problem where we have lots of ideas for how this, or we
0:19:30have lots of ambition in our minds for, "Oh, this technology could be used for so much,"
0:19:35and you say, "Okay, like what?"
0:19:37And it's like crickets.
0:19:38Or it's like, "Well, there's this one thing that you can do games like Pokemon Go,
0:19:41or you can overlay looking at the real world and see Yelp reviews on restaurants."
0:19:45Okay, what else?
0:19:48Is that it?
0:19:49Like, is that all we've come up with?
0:19:51And, you know, you can look at an object on a table.
0:19:53It's like, "Well, yeah, but you can look at an object without being on a table, too,
0:19:55and it's just fine.
0:19:56In fact, it's a lot easier to look at an object that's not restricted to the physical
0:20:00space that you're in and how you're moving around it."
0:20:02So it's one of those things that I have a hard time getting excited about because no
0:20:07killer app has become readily apparent, and it's not new.
0:20:13You know, even before, you know, as I mentioned, like, AR existed before ARKit, and I think
0:20:18Apple has a lot of high hopes about this.
0:20:21I think everyone's so desperate to find, like, the next big thing so often in this industry
0:20:25that we often put unfair and unfulfillable hopes on just new cool things that come out,
0:20:32and then it turns out they're not the next big thing, or they're not as big as people
0:20:36want them to be, or not as widely applicable as people want them to be, and that's just
0:20:40setting up for disappointment.
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0:22:15All right, and our next question comes from Chris Adamson, who asks, "What's a social
0:22:22problem that concerns you about our field, and can you do anything about it?"
0:22:27This is, I think, a great question.
0:22:29It's something that I think we should all be thinking about pretty much all the time,
0:22:33because there is no shortage of social problems in our field that should be concerning us.
0:22:39There's so many issues.
0:22:41There's things like, one of the biggest ones is diversity.
0:22:43We have still, as an industry, we have pretty terrible lack of diversity.
0:22:49We also have major issues like privacy.
0:22:53These are all things that concern me a great deal.
0:22:57One issue that I think is also worth considering that I think some of us don't give enough
0:23:02thought to, but will become an increasing issue, is the, I guess, discrimination inherent
0:23:10in a lot of the algorithms that we're using now.
0:23:14As the world becomes more, as a lot of critical services like transportation become more privatized,
0:23:22like more in the hands of companies like Uber and Lyft, they can start doing things with
0:23:27algorithms that will disadvantage certain kinds of customers that, in the real world,
0:23:33either doesn't happen, can be more easily overcome, or is illegal.
0:23:40For instance, if a taxi doesn't want to pick up passengers going to a certain place,
0:23:44or certain passengers with certain races and things, that's usually, by most cities,
0:23:49that's usually illegal.
0:23:50That's usually part of the taxi program in those cities.
0:23:53They're not allowed to do that.
0:23:54Things like that.
0:23:56When you make these things both private and a lot more algorithmic, you get a lot more
0:24:01possibilities for sinister behavior, or things that seem like they might be optimizations,
0:24:09but are actually optimizing people out in pretty nasty ways.
0:24:17It's important when you are working on these kinds of algorithms, or looking at data, or
0:24:22optimizing for the data in any way.
0:24:26It's important that you try to make sure that you're not causing undue discrimination,
0:24:32or unexpected discrimination to happen in layers like that.
0:24:36And then, in a slightly other way, I'm also concerned about the problem of the rich get
0:24:42richer.
0:24:43And so, whenever I implement any kind of top list, or ranking, or recommendations, I try
0:24:50to make it so that I more heavily weight newcomers and less popular things in those rankings.
0:24:57So, if you see in the overcast, if you go to the most recommended section and scroll
0:25:02down and you see the podcast you might like, you won't see things in there like This American
0:25:07Life, because it's already too popular.
0:25:09And I don't need to be giving them...
0:25:11So, I look at what podcast that people subscribe to that are like yours, but that aren't so
0:25:15popular and that you might not have seen, or that might be new.
0:25:18So, anything I can do like that to try to avoid the rich get richer problem, I tend
0:25:23to want to do.
0:25:24Yeah, and I think you covered a bunch of the interesting there.
0:25:27And I think, A, there's the first thing that I love this question in so far as it's the
0:25:32acknowledgement that our work is a part of some of these challenges that we face as a
0:25:39society.
0:25:41As small and seemingly insignificant as the work that small indie developers do, it's
0:25:48like we are part of this, and we can be part of a problem or part of a solution.
0:25:53I think it's good to just feel that sense of responsibility and not necessarily just
0:25:57take it for granted and be like, "Oh, that's something that Google and Facebook need to
0:26:02worry about because they're the big players."
0:26:03It's like, well, that's not a particularly constructive way to improve things and to
0:26:07make the world better.
0:26:09We can all do something, and even if we make it better for a smaller group of people, well,
0:26:13we've still made it better.
0:26:15But I think, other than the ones that you covered, I think something that comes to mind
0:26:20for me is the understanding that as we get better at making applications, it's very easy,
0:26:29I think, to...
0:26:34We can optimize to a degree that we can create bad habits in our users.
0:26:38And this is one of those tricky topics, I think, because people ultimately have agency.
0:26:43They can choose to be on their phone all the time, and they can choose not to be on their
0:26:45phone all the time.
0:26:46That's a choice that they're making.
0:26:49But I think as app developers, it's always important to think that if we make a change
0:26:53that increases, say, engagement in our application, that it's superficially...
0:26:59We can optimize and drive toward that as much as we can, and that is superficially, from
0:27:04our perspective, a positive thing.
0:27:06But I think it's always important to keep in the back of your mind, "What is this doing
0:27:10on my user side?
0:27:12Is it a...
0:27:13If a user is using my app 50 times a day, wow, that's great, they're super engaged,
0:27:19they think it's awesome.
0:27:20Well, what does that mean?
0:27:22What does that actually look like in their life?"
0:27:24And making sure that we're trying to make apps that improve and enrich our users' life,
0:27:31rather than just taking advantage of addictive tendencies in our users to make them want
0:27:37to be on our app all the time.
0:27:39Those are things that I think that kind of social responsibility...
0:27:42And you can get into a lot of this thing with free-to-play games, and if you're trying to
0:27:45specifically create actual physical addiction or psychological addiction in people, you
0:27:52can go way down that road.
0:27:53But I think at any level, it's understanding that there's this tension that we're always
0:27:58gonna have between wanting to optimize what's good for us and optimize what's good for our
0:28:04customer.
0:28:05And finding that balance between those two things, I think, is an important place to
0:28:09be, or at the very least to keep in the back of our mind.
0:28:13That there are negative effects for people using software all the time that we should
0:28:19probably just keep in the back of our mind and be aware of and be thoughtful if we're
0:28:24driving too hard on trying to improve engagement, for example.
0:28:28That may actually have negative effects on society at large that we are in some ways
0:28:34responsible for.
0:28:35All right, that concludes our Q&A series here.
0:28:39We might do Q&A at some point in the future, but not next week.
0:28:43So we're gonna return back to regular topics starting next week.
0:28:46Thank you for everybody who submitted questions.
0:28:48These have been wonderful.
0:28:49I think we've explored some really cool, interesting things.
0:28:52And yeah, thanks.
0:28:53Thanks for listening.
0:28:54Thanks for writing in.
0:28:55And we will talk to you next week.
0:28:56Bye.
0:28:56week. Bye.