117: The iMac Pro
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Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
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I'm Marco Arment.
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>> And I'm David Smith.
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Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
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Both you and I, Marco, had a, I guess, a slightly belated Christmas present this year, in that
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we both are, I believe, currently sitting in front of brand new primary development
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computers, specifically iMac Pros.
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And I think it seemed like an interesting topic to talk about.
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I think there's some interesting things to unpack a little bit about the machine itself.
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I think it's probably also interesting to talk about why we both use this particular
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setup, which I think is, if I had to guess, a minority of people use an iMac, or in this
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case an iMac Pro, as a primary machine versus using a laptop.
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And then I think it's also, whenever I get a new machine, which is fairly rare, it's
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not something that I have to do very often.
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It's an interesting opportunity to kind of look at my development setup, see how portable
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it is, and kind of take inventory on all the different things that you have to do to set
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And I think that process, hopefully there's a few things to share and to learn from there.
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But first, I think maybe an interesting place to start is, why do you use an iMac rather
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than a laptop as your primary machine?
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>> I've done both.
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I've spent years as a laptop as my only machine and then just plugging it into a monitor,
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keyboard and mouse, like when I was at work, and then bringing it home every day.
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This is a very, very common situation people use.
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And there are a lot of advantages to just having a laptop like that.
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First of all, cost-wise, you only have to buy and maintain and upgrade and later buy
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again one computer.
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There's a pretty big question among a lot of people's minds about, do you need a laptop
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at all or can you just get an iPad?
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But for a lot of developers, there is no question.
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For a lot of developers, the answer is you can't do what you need to do on an iPad or
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it would be so cumbersome that it would be very not practical for you.
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So a lot of developers need laptops.
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And so then the question only becomes, do you have one computer or two?
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If you're going to have one, you have a lot of advantages and things like you don't have
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to worry about how you sync file between them, whether you set them up the same way, like
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oh, I forgot to install this app on this computer or it's configured differently and you can't
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quite figure out how the heck do I get Photoshop settings to look the way they look on my other
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computer, things like that.
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There's a lot of pains in the butt around maintaining multiple computers that if you
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just have the laptop, you're totally fine with.
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On the other hand, when you only have one and say something goes wrong and you need
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to bring it in for service and be without it for a few days, you are kind of out of
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luck and you have a problem in that situation.
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So there are advantages both ways.
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If you have multiple computers, you can also intentionally set things up differently between
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So you can have your work desktop that has certain things on it versus your personal
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laptop or vice versa.
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You can have your windows will be preserved on your desktop and you can come down and
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sit down in front of it and start work immediately as opposed to plugging in your laptop, rearranging
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everything, closing the things you were running at home, starting things you were running
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So there are advantages and disadvantages on both sides.
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I personally find the ergonomics of a laptop for long term work pretty rough when it's
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used as a laptop.
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So I find that for getting work done all day, I really want to be sitting in front of a
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desktop screen positioned away from my face by a few feet, lifted up to the right height
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and then a keyboard that is low in front of me and a split ergonomic natural keyboard
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because that's the style that I find most comfortable ergonomically that reduces my
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A mouse on my right side, a trackpad on my left side so I have two input devices, one
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for each hand.
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This is the kind of setup I like and then the monitor should be as big as possible because
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that is directly related to how happy I can be and how productive I am with what I'm
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doing on my computer.
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All that basically leads to either the laptop plugged into a big monitor and keyboard when
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you're working or the iMac.
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And really either of these options are totally fine, but when you use a laptop as a desktop,
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it's not a very good desktop.
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You not only have issues with just the pains of connecting and disconnecting it every day
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and bringing it back and forth, but then also laptops don't cool themselves very well under
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sustained load or especially if you're using it in clamshell mode where the laptop is closed
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and you're plugging the monitor in, it really doesn't cool itself well.
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They're usually louder when they're under load because they have these little tiny fans.
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They usually have lower powered parts.
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The laptops tend to lag behind the consumer iMacs in CPU performance by a couple of years
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and GPU performance by maybe more.
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Desktops are more constrained with things like what kind of storage you can put in them,
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how much storage, what kind of upgrades, how much RAM you can put in the current lineup,
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and then things like ports and peripherals.
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Desktops just have more ports and different ports and better ports usually.
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Desktops can be better in a number of ways and I really like having both the reliable
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consistent setup where my desktop screen never changes size, so the windows are always in
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the right spots and everything's always where I left it and all the apps can stay running
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or not stay running or whatever else.
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You can have stuff running in the background that serves media to your house for instance
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because it's never asleep or never closed or never off or whatever else.
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There's a lot of advantages to a desktop and I think the decision is made even easier when
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you work at home for yourself.
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Then you don't have to worry about having the same computer between work and home.
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All these reasons I just really like having a desktop.
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If you are a developer and you get a desktop computer, the one you probably want is the
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Gotta say it's a great computer.
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For the last three years I used a regular 5K non-pro iMac because the iMac Pro didn't
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I used a regular iMac and it's great.
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They're pretty good machines.
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They really are very compelling with the features you get, the combination of the nice screen,
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the 5K resolution and this beautiful color screen and everything.
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Having everything be fairly tidy, fairly all in one, it's just a really nice overall package.
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I use an iMac in general, not even considering whether it's a Pro or not, because A, it's
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B, it's a really good desktop.
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C, I think it's the best choice and in many ways the only choice in Apple's current lineup
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for the kind of things that I like.
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Yeah, and I think I use an iMac for many of the same reasons.
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I've used the Retina iMac since I bought a maxed out first generation Retina iMac.
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As soon as I could get a Retina screen in the 27 inch size, that was huge.
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I remember how, at the time, how amazing that was for things like doing iOS simulator work
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on the iPad, or any of the simulators, honestly, would just be these comically huge things.
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It's like, "What?
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I can have a Retina monitor that's this big?"
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That was what sold it for me initially, and then I just got used to it and I really like
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In some ways, some of the things are kind of silly.
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I have a work setup, and that work setup for me is downstairs, and when I'm at work, I'm
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at work, and my most comfortable place to work is down at that desk.
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I think it helps with the temptation to work in other places or at other times when I maybe
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shouldn't be working, because I feel very separate when I'm down here working.
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I have a 12 inch MacBook that I can do work on.
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It's certainly slower and smaller and not as good, but I can get work done there, but
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it's uncomfortable.
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It's a nice thing that I have this super comfortable, great place to work, and then I have a place
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that I can work.
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And then, rather than dealing with the...
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I've tried all manner of things for dealing with the two computer problem.
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There was actually even a period where I had an external drive.
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I bought an external SSD hard drive that I would boot from, and so I would plug it into
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my iMac and boot from that, and then if I wanted to use it on my laptop, I would unplug
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it and plug it into my laptop and boot from it there, which works surprisingly well, but
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it's just mind-bending.
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It's a little cumbersome.
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Cumbersome is a good word, yes.
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It's not the most straightforward.
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So instead, I just work from my iMac, and it's worked out very well for me.
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I was a little bit skeptical to start with, and I think I used to also come from a world
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where I used to having the two monitor setup.
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I typically had...
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My previous setup often was the laptop up on a stand, so it wasn't ergonomically gonna
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cripple me, and then a big mains display that was plugged into it.
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I liked having the two monitors, but honestly, once the monitors went retina, I really don't
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miss having the two monitors set up anymore.
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I like having just one big retina monitor, and from a pixel perspective, it's like I
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have four monitors, I guess, from the amount of detail that I'm able to reasonably look
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An iMac is the machine for me, and really, at this point, it was just a question of,
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should I stick with just the regular 5K iMac, or now that there's the pro model, I am a
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pro, is it something that I should go to?
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And in the end, I decided it made sense based on a variety of things that I guess we'll
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get into, a lot of them around performance and ports, and just trying to...
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If I use this machine so much, I wanna make sure that it's the best that I can reasonably
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have, 'cause it's what I use to make my entire living, so it may as well be a sharp tool.
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And moving back just a moment to the dual monitor thing, I forgot to mention that, but
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I too went through a period where I used dual monitors, and where first one of them was
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the laptop on a stand, and then a big monitor, usually at that time I was using 24-inch monitors
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next to it, and then eventually I upgraded to the laptop with a 30-inch monitor, which
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is the same resolution as 27s that are in iMacs.
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And then I decided that after years of using dual monitors this way, I learned that I really
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don't use dual monitors very effectively, that one of them would always be the primary,
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and then whatever the secondary monitor was, like off to the right or whatever, it was
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just like a junk drawer.
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Like I would have, oh, maybe I put my email client or Twitter or iTunes over there, but
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it didn't really serve any purpose.
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I wasn't usually looking over there, and it didn't serve any purpose that just hiding
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those windows when I wasn't using them wouldn't also serve just as well.
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Like I found that I was not well-suited to dual monitors.
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I thought I was for a while, and if I'm gonna have only a 24-inch size, sure, give
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me a second one.
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But once I set up to the 27/30-inch size, I realized that just having one larger monitor
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worked better for me.
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And it allowed me to avoid a lot of just like bugs and OS weirdness around dual monitors.
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Certain apps still don't really behave well with dual monitors.
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There are certain other issues, like if one of them is your laptop screen and the other
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is like an external monitor, then you'll have usually a different pixel density between
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So like if you move a window to the other monitor, it'll appear physically smaller
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or bigger because the two monitors have different pixel densities.
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And all sorts of just weird little OS weirdness around having dual monitors where clearly
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Mac OS supports dual monitors, but there are certain things that get a little iffy with
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them or that don't work the way you expect, or things like full screen mode that kind
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of don't work at all or have weird limitations.
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Just the entire computer experience I find for myself, and this is personal preference,
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but I find for myself, just works a lot more smoothly and better and cleaner with just
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with one monitor that is as big as it can be, rather than having two separate ones.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And now that I'm used to it, it just feels like the right way to do it.
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And I never feel lacking for space, even when I'm doing, you know, have lots of windows
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Like I use a tool called size up, which I know there's millions of these, but where
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I can easily make a window an exact quarter of my screen, and I find that works really
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well to just be able to like keep it organized, but to be able to take full advantage of it.
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So we both now have, I'm at pros and I think we have almost identical ones.
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I know we both got the 10 core model, I believe.
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And then I got the lower spec video card, the two terabyte drive, and I feel like it's
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64 gigs of memory is what I ended up with.
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I love that you don't know how much RAM you have then.
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I had to check too.
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I don't know.
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It's like, it's enough.
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I got the exact same setup, but four gig instead of, or four terabytes instead of two terabytes
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And so, I mean, and I picked that configuration a little bit from your advice in terms of
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the 10 core seems to be a reasonable trade off in terms of cost and performance and seem
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to be reasonable.
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I got the base video card because I don't think anything I do is ever going to really
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tax it, or at least every now and then when I happen to do some Final Cut Pro work for
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like an app review or a YouTube video and the export takes a little bit longer, it's
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so rare that that's not something I'm worried about.
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But overall, I think my initial impressions is that it's like, it is noticeably faster.
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It's noticeably snappier and like, is a tangible improvement, which you never really know.
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Like it's also at this point, honestly, it's the funny thing of I've been using it for
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a couple of weeks.
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And so now my brain is entirely recalibrated itself to this is normal.
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So it's even hard to remember, which is always something to keep in mind with these kind
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of improvements where you'll notice them for a day or two and then you just get used to
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It's normal.
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And so when it takes, you know, things still aren't instantaneous, or there are many things
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that still aren't.
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Like when I hit, you know, build and run, it still takes a moment for Xcode to like
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do its stuff.
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And so until those times actually go to zero, I'm still going to be aware of performance
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But overall, I'm very happy with it.
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And I think it's more, it was just about, it was time to upgrade from my earlier computer.
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And I think it's a noticeable upgrade, whether or not it was an essential one, it's hard
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I think I was starting to notice some, you know, like my older computer every now and
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then would have some image retention issues or things like that, that I was starting to
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notice that it's like, well, it's maybe it's just time to move on.
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And I think the three years I think it had been since I got that computer, it seemed
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like a reasonable time to upgrade.
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But like, it's a noticeable upgrade.
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It's a good upgrade.
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It's not like a mind bending like, wow, this is amazing.
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Now I can do all these things that I couldn't do before.
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But you know, welcome and welcome improvement, nevertheless.
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Yeah, I don't have much to add.
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I agree with everything you just said.
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I have all the exact same experiences basically.
00:17:38
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And so one thing I will say that I do like is I like the having extra ports on the back.
00:17:45
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I found that to be quite nice where we have previously on the previous generation, IMAX,
00:17:50
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I only had four USB-A plugs on the back.
00:17:54
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Whereas now I have four of those and four USB-C or I don't even know.
00:18:00
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There's probably Thunderbolt 3 ports maybe as well.
00:18:04
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They are Thunderbolt 3 USB-C ports.
00:18:07
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Whatever those are, the small skinny ones, I have four of those as well.
00:18:10
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And that's been a welcome improvement.
00:18:13
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Like I plug a backup drive into one of those.
00:18:15
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Like I have a Thunderbolt 3 backup drive that I plug in there and I do daily snapshots onto.
00:18:21
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And so it's nice to not have to -- because the one thing that I can never -- I find like
00:18:25
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you can never have enough USB-A ports.
00:18:28
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And I mean I even have one of them going into a 12-port hub.
00:18:32
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Yeah, me too.
00:18:33
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I think mine's only 10-port, but yeah.
00:18:35
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Yeah, it's like because I mean -- and they're all -- every one of them is used because they're
00:18:38
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all going out to some test device or Apple Watch or something.
00:18:43
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So like I have so many things in here that charge via USB.
00:18:46
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So it's nice to kind of have those.
00:18:48
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And then now I have this other array of ports that I can plug drives into and things that
00:18:52
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I feel like should be plugged directly into the computer.
00:18:55
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Because I never felt good about plugging my backup drive into the hub because I mean it's
00:19:01
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fine because it's a backup drive, but it's the kind of thing where you feel like a direct
00:19:05
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connection would be good for bandwidth purposes.
00:19:07
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Well, and also a lot of times direct connections are the only reliable connections.
00:19:11
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For a lot of peripherals, a lot of adapters and hubs and things, they are like 99% reliable,
00:19:16
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but not 100% reliable.
00:19:17
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And for certain tasks, that matters a lot.
00:19:20
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Like things that are related to like my network connectivity or my audio interfaces for podcasting,
00:19:25
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I need those to be 100%.
00:19:27
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And my keyboard, like I can't have my keyboard drop 1% of its keystrokes or repeat things
00:19:33
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or be weird.
00:19:34
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And I have had those issues with a lot of hubs and adapters I've used in the past.
00:19:39
◼
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So this is a much bigger problem on laptops and the desktops, especially the more recent
00:19:45
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But there's a lot of reasons why the ports that are built in to computers tend to be
00:19:51
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100% reliable, whereas anything that's broken out with a hub or anything tends to not be
00:19:57
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quite 100% a lot of the time.
00:19:59
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And so it's great to have those extra ones.
00:20:00
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And as a brief aside, my main, like the way I typically am working when I'm developing
00:20:06
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is I'll have an iPhone, depending on what I'm developing and where I am, one of my various
00:20:12
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test iPhones, plugged directly into my computer with lightning.
00:20:17
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I know you can do the wireless version of this now, but I just like the lightning version
00:20:21
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because I'm old and curmudgeonly.
00:20:24
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But one thing I was curious was if the USB-C to lightning cable would be a faster way to
00:20:31
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do that process than the USB-A to lightning cable.
00:20:34
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And so this last week I actually did an experiment that I figured I'd mention on the show where
00:20:38
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I was just basically benchmarking how long it took to move files and things back and
00:20:43
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►
forth when it was plugged in via the USB-C to lightning versus USB-A to lightning.
00:20:49
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Turns out it's basically the same.
00:20:51
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It's basically a wash between the two, which makes me think that the bottleneck is on the
00:20:54
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phone rather than on the computer because clearly more data could be pushed through
00:21:01
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the USB-C port to the lightning cable or the lightning cable is the bottleneck.
00:21:07
◼
►
But along the short list I figured I'd mention it here that I appreciate having the extra
00:21:13
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USB-C ports because now I can have a dedicated direct connection as my primary development
00:21:21
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It's not there for speed.
00:21:22
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It's probably just there for reliability and not having to go through the hub.
00:21:25
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So you win some, you lose some, I suppose.
00:21:27
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Yeah, actually, minor feedback on that.
00:21:30
◼
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I would be interested to see if the test is the same if you're using a 10.5 or a 12.9
00:21:36
◼
►
inch iPad Pro because those, I think, are the only iOS devices that actually have USB-3
00:21:43
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►
support on their lightning port.
00:21:45
◼
►
As far as I know, all of the iPhones and every iPad except the 10.5 and 12.9 Pros, the internal
00:21:52
◼
►
USB parts of their lightning plug are USB-2 and I think the USB-A to lightning cables
00:21:57
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►
are also USB-2 cables whereas the USB-C to lightning cable is a USB-3 cable and the 10.5
00:22:03
◼
►
and 12.9 have USB-C, or have USB-3 as their interfaces.
00:22:07
◼
►
Okay, so maybe it is just, yeah, so I will admit I was testing with an iPhone X, but
00:22:13
◼
►
I can certainly repeat the test with an iPad or iPad Pro and see if it works any better.
00:22:19
◼
►
Yeah, but not the 9.7.
00:22:20
◼
►
That's still USB-2.
00:22:21
◼
►
It has to be a 10.5 or a 12.9.
00:22:24
◼
►
Anyway, yeah, and I have found too, like the wireless debugging, I like it, but it's, I
00:22:31
◼
►
don't know if it's like when I upgrade to a new beta or something, but a lot of times
00:22:34
◼
►
it just stops working.
00:22:35
◼
►
Like I have to, then I have to like plug in the phone to reconfigure it and so I just
00:22:38
◼
►
like, it's kind of annoying.
00:22:39
◼
►
- Yeah, and that's not what you want.
00:22:41
◼
►
Like you don't want your debug cycle to be, every so often, just to stop working.
00:22:49
◼
►
It's already the most inconvenient part of development is that sort of the cycle where
00:22:52
◼
►
you're kind of, you're making a change and then you're building and deploying it to your
00:22:55
◼
►
phone and then going back and forth.
00:22:57
◼
►
So yeah, I will continue to use a plug directly plugged in and now I'm using USB-C to Lightning
00:23:03
◼
►
just because now I can have, I have an extra port that I can dedicate to that and it seems
00:23:08
◼
►
to work really well.
00:23:10
◼
►
The last thing I think it makes sense to probably close off talking about is I always find getting
00:23:15
◼
►
a new machine is kind of an interesting process just as it's an opportunity to see how portable
00:23:21
◼
►
your setup is.
00:23:22
◼
►
And I think as a slightly more meta point, like it's an important thing if you're self-employed
00:23:28
◼
►
to think about how portable your setup is because you are going to be, like you're responsible
00:23:35
◼
►
for being able to continue work progress irrespective of whatever's going on externally.
00:23:41
◼
►
Like if your computer has a horrible problem and has to go to the shop for two weeks or
00:23:48
◼
►
whatever, even if you have to buy a new computer for some, you know, you spill water on it
00:23:54
◼
►
and it breaks or it falls off your desk or whatever.
00:23:58
◼
►
If something happens, you need to be able to continue to work.
00:24:00
◼
►
And so it's an important thing I think to use getting a new computer as an opportunity
00:24:05
◼
►
to see how portable your setup is, to see how quickly you can get set up and going onto
00:24:11
◼
►
a new machine because you want to practice it when the stakes are low rather than having
00:24:16
◼
►
to practice when the stakes are high, when suddenly you're in a situation where you have
00:24:21
◼
►
a critical bug fix you need to do and then your computer dies for some reason and then
00:24:25
◼
►
all of a sudden you're in a really big problem.
00:24:27
◼
►
Even if you went to the Apple Store, bought a brand new laptop, brought it home, if you
00:24:31
◼
►
don't have all the files you need, if your setup isn't portable in that way, if you're
00:24:36
◼
►
entirely reliant on the data on that drive, you're going to be in big trouble.
00:24:41
◼
►
So hey, it's always a good thing to keep in mind that I trust and hope that you have a
00:24:46
◼
►
robust backup solution that allows you to make this process straightforward that, like
00:24:50
◼
►
I said, I have a daily clone of my main development machine that is just always running and it
00:24:56
◼
►
means that if ever my, you know, something were to happen, I will at most lose a day's
00:25:01
◼
►
worth of work, probably less than that because of, you know, syncing and check-ins and things,
00:25:05
◼
►
but at worst it would be that and it's a bootable backup so if I, worse came to worst, I could
00:25:10
◼
►
just get any laptop, any Mac laptop ever, plug my backup into that, boot from that,
00:25:16
◼
►
and at least even if it's not as optimized of a setup, I could do it there, but anyway,
00:25:22
◼
►
just worth mentioning.
00:25:24
◼
►
And when I was doing my migration to this new computer, I tried to kind of keep track
00:25:28
◼
►
of the things that become part of that and it's like, I need to move over all my code,
00:25:33
◼
►
I need to move over all my assets, graphic design assets like Photoshop files, things
00:25:38
◼
►
like that, migrate my SSH keys so I can connect all my machines, all my signing keys, which
00:25:45
◼
►
you can, there's a, in theory, Xcode makes much easier now with all of its tools, but
00:25:53
◼
►
in practice I found it still was a bit cumbersome and problematic, but, you know.
00:25:56
◼
►
Oh yeah, this is the import and export developer profile settings in Xcode's account pane?
00:26:02
◼
►
I've had great luck with that, it's always worked for me.
00:26:04
◼
►
It's like, I always find that it works, maybe it's just because I have so many apps, but
00:26:08
◼
►
I find that it inevitably, there's some little thing that catches me out, and I have to do
00:26:14
◼
►
something in a slightly more manual process or export the keychain from my old computer
00:26:18
◼
►
and move it into my new computer and kind of merge them together or things like that,
00:26:22
◼
►
but overall it's certainly gotten a lot better, and the automatic code signing stuff helps
00:26:26
◼
►
a lot with this too, that at least once you have the base signing keys transferred over,
00:26:31
◼
►
then it can take care of a lot of, if you're missing other profiles or things, it can take
00:26:35
◼
►
care of that a lot for you now.
00:26:38
◼
►
One thing that I do, I have run into recently that was kind of a funny thing is I forgot
00:26:42
◼
►
that I run a local development database, like I have a Postgres database that's just running
00:26:47
◼
►
on my main computer.
00:26:49
◼
►
And, which, you know, it's like, but it's, I, for some reason I got so used to the fact
00:26:53
◼
►
that all my databases are remote and posted on Linux servers that I'd totally forgotten
00:26:58
◼
►
that when I, you know, when I kicked up a development environment and it's like, "Can't
00:27:03
◼
►
connect to the database," and it's like, "What do you mean you can't connect to the database?"
00:27:05
◼
►
And it's like, "Oh right, that's because the database is on the computer that's sitting
00:27:08
◼
►
on the floor next to me," and so I had to remember to go and get the actual, like, the
00:27:12
◼
►
data from the database and move it over into the new computer, even though I had set up
00:27:17
◼
►
Postgres on it as part of my process.
00:27:20
◼
►
One thing I like to do for this is keep certain files and scripts for doing new computer setup
00:27:27
◼
►
I have a whole Dropbox folder for basically, like, setting up a new computer, and it includes
00:27:32
◼
►
a couple of shell scripts for doing things like configuring Homebrew and installing the
00:27:37
◼
►
Homebrew apps that I use, you know, on my Mac, you know, so that I can run that whenever
00:27:42
◼
►
there's an OS upgrade or whenever there's, you know, a new machine or a clean install,
00:27:46
◼
►
and just like, you know, checklists.
00:27:48
◼
►
I always look at Casey's checklist and move into a new computer that he, on his blog,
00:27:52
◼
►
is willing to because it's great.
00:27:53
◼
►
It includes a lot of stuff that I might sometimes forget, like, you know, deauthorizing and
00:27:58
◼
►
reauthorizing certain applications and iTunes and things like that.
00:28:02
◼
►
But yeah, it's something that it's really nice to, like, write down, keep in a list,
00:28:08
◼
►
and keep that list somewhere that you will find it and that it's obvious, like Dropbox.
00:28:12
◼
►
And there will be steps to the migration process that you want to remember or that you need
00:28:18
◼
►
to remember that you will very likely forget if it's not in a list.
00:28:22
◼
►
You could, in theory, use like Migration Assistant or like make a clone and deploy that clone
00:28:27
◼
►
onto your computer, but I really think the process of going through that checklist and
00:28:31
◼
►
going through and rebuilding is so useful.
00:28:35
◼
►
And because it only happens every couple of years, it's something that's worthwhile doing.
00:28:39
◼
►
And I will say, always keep a snapshot clone of your old machine and keep that drive, like,
00:28:48
◼
►
I have found, I've started, it's a habit I got into where I keep the last snapshot of
00:28:52
◼
►
every development machine I've ever had.
00:28:54
◼
►
And even if I end up just getting rid of that computer, I sell it or I give it to a friend
00:28:58
◼
►
or a family or whatever, like, oh, whatever ends up happening, I have a snapshot of that
00:29:02
◼
►
And the number of times that it proved invaluable for going back and finding some file that
00:29:06
◼
►
I thought I'd checked in but I hadn't, and it's come back time and time again to save
00:29:12
◼
►
So highly recommend just take a snapshot, put it on a hard drive, label what it is,
00:29:16
◼
►
put it on a shelf.
00:29:17
◼
►
You never know when you're going to, that can come into handy in the future.
00:29:19
◼
►
So always recommended practice.
00:29:21
◼
►
That's a good tip.
00:29:22
◼
►
All right, thanks for listening everybody, and we'll talk to you next week.