Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► - Welcome to Under the Radar,

00:00:01 ◼   ► a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I'm Mark Orment.

00:00:05 ◼   ► - And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes,

00:00:08 ◼   ► so let's get started.

00:00:10 ◼   ► - So in the grand tradition

00:00:11 ◼   ► of early January podcast episodes,

00:00:13 ◼   ► we decided it would be nice to kinda do a 2017

00:00:16 ◼   ► in review episode and to look over some of the things

00:00:20 ◼   ► that happened in 2017 that were relevant to iOS developers

00:00:23 ◼   ► and then kind of our perspective so far

00:00:25 ◼   ► on how those are going or how those have changed things

00:00:28 ◼   ► so far and kinda where we see things going.

00:00:31 ◼   ► And I wanted to start out, you know,

00:00:33 ◼   ► and first of all, just a brief opening statement here,

00:00:36 ◼   ► they've been killing it ever since Phil took over.

00:00:39 ◼   ► Like there have been so, there's been such a pleasant

00:00:43 ◼   ► and dramatically improved rate of progress in the app store

00:00:48 ◼   ► ever since they, I think like a year and a half ago,

00:00:51 ◼   ► basically authority of it transferred to Phil Schiller.

00:00:55 ◼   ► And I don't know what other changes happened at that time,

00:00:57 ◼   ► but there's a pretty clear trend that like since that time,

00:01:01 ◼   ► things have gotten significantly better

00:01:04 ◼   ► and significantly faster than the progress

00:01:07 ◼   ► that used to happen before that, which was pretty minimal.

00:01:09 ◼   ► So big thumbs up to Phil

00:01:11 ◼   ► and whoever else was involved with that.

00:01:13 ◼   ► So one of the big changes that has happened

00:01:17 ◼   ► this past year or two is greatly broadening

00:01:22 ◼   ► subscription pricing for apps.

00:01:24 ◼   ► It started out in actually in 2016 in June,

00:01:29 ◼   ► right before WWDC when they announced

00:01:31 ◼   ► that more apps would be allowed to use subscriptions

00:01:34 ◼   ► and that the, from years two onward of a subscription,

00:01:38 ◼   ► you would get 85% instead of 70% of the commission.

00:01:41 ◼   ► So while that was the year before,

00:01:43 ◼   ► the effects of that I think have been felt more in 2017

00:01:47 ◼   ► and especially because starting in June of 2017,

00:01:50 ◼   ► we got our raise.

00:01:51 ◼   ► We got those first round of 85% renewals.

00:01:54 ◼   ► And for me, those started in September, I think,

00:01:59 ◼   ► or October because that was like the one anniversary

00:02:01 ◼   ► of me launching my auto renewing plan for Overcast.

00:02:04 ◼   ► But I think subscriptions have,

00:02:07 ◼   ► there have been a lot of developer wish lists

00:02:12 ◼   ► over the years that have included things like free trial

00:02:15 ◼   ► and paid upgrades and things like that

00:02:18 ◼   ► that are basically the old ways of monetizing software,

00:02:21 ◼   ► the ways that we pretty much always had

00:02:24 ◼   ► and many companies still use on PC and Mac.

00:02:28 ◼   ► And we don't have those yet.

00:02:31 ◼   ► And I'm not sure we ever will have those on iOS.

00:02:34 ◼   ► But with all the changes to subscriptions

00:02:37 ◼   ► and some of the new features that were added

00:02:39 ◼   ► for things like free trials of subscriptions

00:02:41 ◼   ► and different flexibility and different price tiers

00:02:43 ◼   ► and everything else, I think we've come very close to those.

00:02:47 ◼   ► And it's not nearly as easy as it was before,

00:02:50 ◼   ► but you can now simulate free trials in a few different ways

00:02:54 ◼   ► that people are seemingly doing with success.

00:02:59 ◼   ► So that's a pretty big thing.

00:03:00 ◼   ► And also just by expanding subscriptions so much,

00:03:05 ◼   ► there are so many more business models

00:03:07 ◼   ► that have become possible that while it is still not

00:03:11 ◼   ► trivially easy to make money in the app store

00:03:14 ◼   ► in a sustainable way, we have more options

00:03:16 ◼   ► than we've ever had before.

00:03:18 ◼   ► And I feel like now, if you can't find something,

00:03:21 ◼   ► if you can't find some way to monetize your app

00:03:24 ◼   ► that people actually want,

00:03:26 ◼   ► then I don't think you're looking hard enough.

00:03:28 ◼   ► So thumbs up for all the subscription changes

00:03:32 ◼   ► and the rules around subscriptions becoming loosened

00:03:35 ◼   ► in some ways for really giving us way more options

00:03:40 ◼   ► for how we monetize our apps.

00:03:42 ◼   ► And having the 85% on the years to and above

00:03:46 ◼   ► is a pretty nice raise also.

00:03:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think too, it's also nice to see that,

00:03:52 ◼   ► and this is to your earlier point about that now

00:03:55 ◼   ► that it seems like the changes that are being made

00:03:57 ◼   ► into these types of business model changes

00:04:00 ◼   ► or more policy changes, they're not in a situation

00:04:03 ◼   ► where they're sort of like one and done.

00:04:06 ◼   ► They felt like, oh, there's a problem with subscriptions.

00:04:08 ◼   ► Let's change something, and then now it's fine.

00:04:10 ◼   ► What's nice to see, I think, now is if things continue

00:04:13 ◼   ► to get better over time.

00:04:15 ◼   ► Like towards the end of 2017, we got introductory pricing

00:04:20 ◼   ► as a new option in subscriptions.

00:04:23 ◼   ► It's like now there's this new mode, there's this new tool.

00:04:26 ◼   ► And I like that with something like business models,

00:04:31 ◼   ► with subscriptions in this case,

00:04:33 ◼   ► it's nice to see that continue to develop

00:04:35 ◼   ► and that it's reasonable to imagine

00:04:37 ◼   ► that 2018 will continue that process,

00:04:41 ◼   ► that Apple will continue to expand both sort of the types

00:04:44 ◼   ► of subscriptions that are possible

00:04:46 ◼   ► and some of the mechanisms mechanically with that.

00:04:50 ◼   ► Like I know we also, I think at WWDC last year,

00:04:53 ◼   ► we got a bunch of new web hooks, I believe,

00:04:56 ◼   ► for being able to do validation and understanding

00:04:59 ◼   ► around a user's state in a subscription.

00:05:01 ◼   ► So all these types of things that are,

00:05:04 ◼   ► they just make that better and better.

00:05:06 ◼   ► And I love to see, irrespective of whether

00:05:09 ◼   ► the individual details are important or useful

00:05:14 ◼   ► have panned out wonderfully, what is most important,

00:05:16 ◼   ► I think, is that this is an area that Apple

00:05:18 ◼   ► is clearly continuing to enhance over time.

00:05:21 ◼   ► And it seems, generally speaking, to be the area

00:05:23 ◼   ► that they are putting the most effort behind

00:05:27 ◼   ► in a lot of their development and their allocation

00:05:32 ◼   ► of resources and attention, that they are making

00:05:35 ◼   ► subscriptions a better and better way

00:05:37 ◼   ► to monetize your apps.

00:05:39 ◼   ► And if that's true and that's sort of where they're pushing,

00:05:41 ◼   ► then it kind of makes sense to start to think about it.

00:05:45 ◼   ► Like I currently don't use any, and I know you do,

00:05:47 ◼   ► but it's certainly something that I'm aware of

00:05:49 ◼   ► because any time that it seems like things keep changing

00:05:53 ◼   ► in a direction, it's like, hmm, that's interesting.

00:05:55 ◼   ► Maybe I need to be thinking thoughtful of a way

00:05:58 ◼   ► to take advantage of that because clearly it's something

00:06:01 ◼   ► that is seemingly just getting better and better

00:06:04 ◼   ► of a deal and more and more flexible of an option over time.

00:06:08 ◼   ► Also when subscriptions launched, a lot of people

00:06:12 ◼   ► had concerns about whether app store customers

00:06:16 ◼   ► would feel, quote, subscription fatigue.

00:06:20 ◼   ► This is the idea that like, well, one or two apps

00:06:23 ◼   ► can charge subscriptions, but soon all the apps

00:06:27 ◼   ► will be charging you X dollars a month

00:06:28 ◼   ► and people will get tired of it and don't want

00:06:30 ◼   ► that many subscriptions and they'll stop paying

00:06:32 ◼   ► for all of them.

00:06:33 ◼   ► And I don't think that has really happened.

00:06:35 ◼   ► I haven't seen any, just anecdotally,

00:06:37 ◼   ► I really haven't seen any signs of that.

00:06:40 ◼   ► Many apps are still not charging subscriptions,

00:06:42 ◼   ► so it isn't like they all of a sudden changed over.

00:06:46 ◼   ► And I haven't really heard from people who meaningfully

00:06:51 ◼   ► have a lot of feedback from people saying

00:06:53 ◼   ► that they won't pay their subscriptions

00:06:54 ◼   ► 'cause they have too many subscriptions.

00:06:55 ◼   ► Like that doesn't seem to be happening, which is good.

00:06:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think it's, as with all these things,

00:07:02 ◼   ► I feel like there's this fundamental question of

00:07:05 ◼   ► are you providing a service or a value to your user

00:07:09 ◼   ► that exceeds the cost that you're asking for that service?

00:07:13 ◼   ► Like at its basic level.

00:07:14 ◼   ► And subscription fatigue, I'm sure, is a thing,

00:07:17 ◼   ► and it's certainly something that's possible,

00:07:19 ◼   ► but you kind of imagine a scenario where

00:07:21 ◼   ► if someone is feeling that and they have that many apps

00:07:23 ◼   ► that are providing that much value to them,

00:07:25 ◼   ► they're gonna be more apt to continue to pay.

00:07:27 ◼   ► Like the situation, I think, is more,

00:07:29 ◼   ► it's like subscription fatigue is perhaps a shortcut

00:07:33 ◼   ► for saying you're not providing enough value to your user

00:07:37 ◼   ► to be able to justify subscription pricing,

00:07:39 ◼   ► which I think is an entirely reasonable end.

00:07:42 ◼   ► I mean, that's in many ways the reason why a lot of my apps

00:07:44 ◼   ► don't have something like subscriptions,

00:07:46 ◼   ► where I don't feel like I have something tangible enough

00:07:49 ◼   ► to warrant that kind of direct action

00:07:52 ◼   ► on an ongoing, sustained basis, but other apps do.

00:07:55 ◼   ► And like you said, it doesn't seem like

00:07:59 ◼   ► that's actually a problem in practice,

00:08:00 ◼   ► that if you provide a service that has a tangible value

00:08:03 ◼   ► going forward, that charging a subscription for it

00:08:06 ◼   ► is a reasonable thing.

00:08:07 ◼   ► And fair enough, like not everybody is going to

00:08:10 ◼   ► take advantage of that, and I think there is a certain

00:08:12 ◼   ► element of getting used to the mindset that

00:08:16 ◼   ► not all of your customers are going to be paying customers

00:08:19 ◼   ► is something that is certainly a very important thing

00:08:21 ◼   ► to understand and just be comfortable with,

00:08:23 ◼   ► that there are gonna be people who use your application

00:08:25 ◼   ► and you never really directly receive

00:08:27 ◼   ► any monetary value from that.

00:08:29 ◼   ► But that's okay, because as long as you have

00:08:32 ◼   ► a reasonable proportion of users that do get enough value

00:08:35 ◼   ► to be motivated to do that, you'll be okay in the end.

00:08:39 ◼   ► - So moving on, one of the other big changes

00:08:41 ◼   ► that was announced earlier this year

00:08:43 ◼   ► is that developers got the ability to respond

00:08:47 ◼   ► to app store reviews, and this was long awaited.

00:08:52 ◼   ► I think the Google Play Store had it since the beginning

00:08:55 ◼   ► or since early on, and so iOS developers

00:08:57 ◼   ► were clamming for this for years.

00:08:59 ◼   ► So we finally got the ability to respond publicly

00:09:03 ◼   ► to user reviews on the app store.

00:09:05 ◼   ► How has that been going for you?

00:09:07 ◼   ► - I think it's one of these things that I am glad

00:09:11 ◼   ► that it's there, that I think overall,

00:09:13 ◼   ► like as with all the stuff, I love that it's a tool

00:09:15 ◼   ► that is now available.

00:09:17 ◼   ► The impact of it I think is more measured,

00:09:19 ◼   ► and some of that is dealing with also some changes

00:09:23 ◼   ► to the app store that I think we're gonna talk about later.

00:09:26 ◼   ► But the way the new app store is set up,

00:09:28 ◼   ► the reviews, like textual reviews,

00:09:30 ◼   ► I think are less emphasized than they used to be,

00:09:33 ◼   ► in the sense that there's really, you see one review,

00:09:37 ◼   ► and it's kind of hard to even understand

00:09:39 ◼   ► that there's even more than one review.

00:09:41 ◼   ► So assuming that your main review is a positive one,

00:09:45 ◼   ► the others kind of disappear into the,

00:09:49 ◼   ► sort of disappear into the ether behind it.

00:09:51 ◼   ► And so it's less important in that regard

00:09:54 ◼   ► because the reason why I think it was,

00:09:57 ◼   ► initially very useful is that if you,

00:10:01 ◼   ► there's a huge whole section of your app store page

00:10:03 ◼   ► that was about reviews, and if someone was asking a question

00:10:08 ◼   ► or talking badly about your app in a way that wasn't true

00:10:11 ◼   ► or accurate or that you could help with even,

00:10:14 ◼   ► you know, even just from a positive

00:10:15 ◼   ► customer service perspective,

00:10:17 ◼   ► now it's good to be able to respond to that.

00:10:18 ◼   ► Like that was important, I would say it's less important now

00:10:21 ◼   ► and I view it now, it's just another,

00:10:24 ◼   ► in some ways it's just another support venue,

00:10:26 ◼   ► you know, that people email me

00:10:28 ◼   ► and then some people leave reviews

00:10:29 ◼   ► and it's nice to be able to reach out to them

00:10:32 ◼   ► and it avoids that situation where someone

00:10:35 ◼   ► was complaining about something like,

00:10:37 ◼   ► oh man, I wish this app did this,

00:10:38 ◼   ► or when I do this, it doesn't seem to work right,

00:10:42 ◼   ► and being able to reach out to that person and correct that,

00:10:45 ◼   ► but it's much more of a customer service thing

00:10:47 ◼   ► than it was a marketing thing, I think initially.

00:10:49 ◼   ► So like, I'm glad it's there, it's useful,

00:10:52 ◼   ► but I don't think it had a major impact

00:10:55 ◼   ► in a way that it may have if they hadn't

00:10:57 ◼   ► redesigned the app store.

00:10:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, I am in complete agreement,

00:11:00 ◼   ► I mean, it turns out that in practice,

00:11:03 ◼   ► the reading of the reviews with these responses,

00:11:06 ◼   ► like I loved how Mike put it on Connected

00:11:09 ◼   ► this past week here on Real AFM,

00:11:11 ◼   ► they were doing a year review of like

00:11:12 ◼   ► kind of just all Apple tech news

00:11:14 ◼   ► and they mentioned this and Mike said,

00:11:16 ◼   ► it's kind of like reading somebody's email chain.

00:11:19 ◼   ► It's like, because in practice you see like one person's,

00:11:22 ◼   ► you know, talking about some problem

00:11:24 ◼   ► and then you see like a support person saying,

00:11:26 ◼   ► we're sorry you've had this problem,

00:11:27 ◼   ► please contact us and we'll help you resolve it.

00:11:29 ◼   ► Like it's like resolve, it's like basically

00:11:31 ◼   ► reading somebody's support email, like in public.

00:11:34 ◼   ► It's kind of weird as a reader and as a developer,

00:11:38 ◼   ► I tried responding to reviews for a little while,

00:11:42 ◼   ► but found it mostly not worth doing.

00:11:46 ◼   ► And I think you nailed it with like,

00:11:48 ◼   ► one of the biggest reasons is the new app store

00:11:50 ◼   ► design change where reviews, written reviews

00:11:53 ◼   ► are so sidelined in the new app store layout

00:11:57 ◼   ► that they barely matter at all anymore

00:11:59 ◼   ► and frankly, I think that's all for the better.

00:12:02 ◼   ► Because, you know, for years I think it's been apparent

00:12:05 ◼   ► that your star average mattered way more

00:12:09 ◼   ► than what any particular written review said.

00:12:12 ◼   ► And there's so many problems with written reviews,

00:12:16 ◼   ► it's a system that is so deeply broken and dysfunctional

00:12:20 ◼   ► and always has been.

00:12:22 ◼   ► So the ideal solution would be to get rid of star ratings

00:12:26 ◼   ► and reviews altogether and replace it with like,

00:12:29 ◼   ► a thumbs up, thumbs down kind of thing.

00:12:30 ◼   ► That way you remove the problem of different star levels

00:12:35 ◼   ► meaning different things to different people.

00:12:37 ◼   ► Like what does it mean?

00:12:39 ◼   ► Like what does it mean for me to write four stars

00:12:42 ◼   ► versus five stars and is that the same thing

00:12:43 ◼   ► that you distinguish between four stars and five stars?

00:12:46 ◼   ► Like that whole system is dysfunctional.

00:12:48 ◼   ► But the way they've done it now, I think is

00:12:50 ◼   ► a significant improvement where it is way less emphasized.

00:12:54 ◼   ► You hardly see any written reviews unless you really try

00:12:57 ◼   ► to seek them out and even then you're likely

00:12:59 ◼   ► to only read the first one and maybe two

00:13:01 ◼   ► if you really get into it.

00:13:03 ◼   ► But it's so cumbersome to actually scan through

00:13:06 ◼   ► written reviews that they might as well not even be there.

00:13:10 ◼   ► Which also means that it's not really worth responding

00:13:12 ◼   ► to most of them.

00:13:13 ◼   ► It's, you know, unless you're the kind of developer

00:13:16 ◼   ► who I greatly respect you, who goes through

00:13:19 ◼   ► and answers every single person who has anything

00:13:22 ◼   ► to say to you, that's wonderful.

00:13:24 ◼   ► I don't have time for that.

00:13:25 ◼   ► I can't do that.

00:13:26 ◼   ► I'd like, if you have staff or if you're so motivated

00:13:29 ◼   ► that you can do that, awesome.

00:13:30 ◼   ► This is one more channel for you to do that in.

00:13:33 ◼   ► But for people who don't have the time to respond

00:13:35 ◼   ► to every single thing, this, like the written reviews

00:13:40 ◼   ► and being able to respond to written reviews

00:13:44 ◼   ► I think should be treated the same way you treat

00:13:46 ◼   ► support email or tweets.

00:13:47 ◼   ► Which is if you can respond to them all, cool.

00:13:49 ◼   ► If not, this is no different than those

00:13:51 ◼   ► and you don't need to worry about it.

00:13:52 ◼   ► And with the new App Store changes,

00:13:54 ◼   ► it's less important than ever.

00:13:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think probably the biggest change

00:13:58 ◼   ► that they made, which was a 2017 change,

00:14:00 ◼   ► is not resetting reviews on updates now.

00:14:05 ◼   ► - Right, making it optional.

00:14:07 ◼   ► - Sure, making it optional.

00:14:08 ◼   ► Making it that you, in general, you can choose to do it

00:14:11 ◼   ► and you would obviously only do it when it would

00:14:14 ◼   ► made sense to do it.

00:14:16 ◼   ► That in general, it's kind of changed the,

00:14:19 ◼   ► I don't even know if it's right, but it's almost like

00:14:21 ◼   ► app reviews were this weird kind of vague currency before.

00:14:24 ◼   ► Where like, as a developer, you're trying to build up

00:14:27 ◼   ► this number as quickly as you can for every update you do

00:14:32 ◼   ► so that you can appear good in the store

00:14:35 ◼   ► and continue to grow and look like you're a good app

00:14:38 ◼   ► that's worth downloading.

00:14:39 ◼   ► But this change, I think, had a, I mean, it's probably,

00:14:42 ◼   ► if I had to pick my favorite change out of everything

00:14:45 ◼   ► in 2017, it's probably that.

00:14:47 ◼   ► Mostly because it's changed the way that I can think about

00:14:51 ◼   ► my development cycle, and doing small updates

00:14:55 ◼   ► are now fine, it doesn't really matter.

00:14:58 ◼   ► If I had the time and ability, I could update my app

00:15:02 ◼   ► once a week and it would be fine.

00:15:04 ◼   ► It wouldn't have this weird tension that I had before

00:15:07 ◼   ► where every time I updated the app, I knew that I had

00:15:09 ◼   ► to kind of rebuild all this.

00:15:11 ◼   ► And so, things like responding to reviews would have been

00:15:13 ◼   ► more important because if someone had given it a one star

00:15:17 ◼   ► and I respond to them and they changed it a one star

00:15:19 ◼   ► to a five star, that difference was very more measured.

00:15:22 ◼   ► Whereas now, if you, it's like either if you use

00:15:27 ◼   ► the new ratings prompt system, which also came in 2017,

00:15:30 ◼   ► or you just gradually build up your reviews over time,

00:15:34 ◼   ► once you have a certain number of reviews,

00:15:37 ◼   ► you can just keep them.

00:15:38 ◼   ► And assuming that you don't massively mess up

00:15:40 ◼   ► and do something to jeopardize it, you can maintain

00:15:43 ◼   ► a good star rating that makes you look good in the app store

00:15:46 ◼   ► and is generally positive going forward, and you have

00:15:48 ◼   ► to worry less about your app reviews in that way.

00:15:53 ◼   ► And I mean, that's basically what I did for a lot of,

00:15:55 ◼   ► for my main apps is I don't love the ratings prompt system.

00:16:00 ◼   ► It's certainly, it's very effective, but as we've talked

00:16:03 ◼   ► about many times, I don't love interrupting customers

00:16:05 ◼   ► and so on, but what I kind of love about is that plus

00:16:09 ◼   ► non-resetting reviews is I just set up my app

00:16:12 ◼   ► so that I, I was trying to be very respectful

00:16:15 ◼   ► about when I would do it, that it was only at the end,

00:16:17 ◼   ► it's like you've clearly been in the app for a while

00:16:18 ◼   ► and you're returning from finishing an operation

00:16:21 ◼   ► rather than starting an operation, and I sort of set

00:16:24 ◼   ► the app up such that it only prompts until I had

00:16:28 ◼   ► a certain number of reviews, and then since then,

00:16:30 ◼   ► it's just turned off, and I haven't done it.

00:16:32 ◼   ► So it's like there was a two-week period,

00:16:34 ◼   ► or one-week period maybe even, where like I was asking

00:16:36 ◼   ► people for reviews on a semi-regular basis,

00:16:38 ◼   ► and that built up enough reviews that now the app

00:16:41 ◼   ► looks great in the store, and now I can just turn that off,

00:16:43 ◼   ► and in some ways, like as long as I keep, you know,

00:16:45 ◼   ► keep shipping quality updates and I'm not gonna end up

00:16:47 ◼   ► with this big flood of one stars, like the app review system

00:16:51 ◼   ► is not something that I have to concern myself with,

00:16:54 ◼   ► which I love, and I can just kind of keep moving,

00:16:56 ◼   ► making the app better and better, and it doesn't have

00:16:59 ◼   ► this weird external effect that I'm trying to counteract.

00:17:01 ◼   ► - And that's how it always should have been.

00:17:03 ◼   ► Like the written reviews made like the loudest,

00:17:07 ◼   ► most upset people, it made their review count for more

00:17:12 ◼   ► than it should have counted for, and now that we have

00:17:16 ◼   ► a larger number of reviews that persist between updates,

00:17:20 ◼   ► and that we have this way to get quick star ratings

00:17:23 ◼   ► from people who aren't upset enough to write a full review,

00:17:27 ◼   ► like they just like your app and just use it quietly,

00:17:29 ◼   ► like they're like the silent approving majority,

00:17:32 ◼   ► their opinion now matters more, and I think that's great

00:17:36 ◼   ► for everybody, 'cause it more fairly represents

00:17:39 ◼   ► how people actually think of your app, rather than just

00:17:43 ◼   ► focusing on the few people who were most angry enough

00:17:46 ◼   ► to write reviews.

00:17:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, and one thing that's kind of funny is I feel like

00:17:50 ◼   ► it's made me less, as a customer, I care less about

00:17:55 ◼   ► the star rating than I used to, because it seems like

00:17:59 ◼   ► every app has a couple thousand reviews and is four

00:18:02 ◼   ► or five stars, like that's just sort of, like that's like

00:18:06 ◼   ► the baseline now, and so it makes it, it's like if an app

00:18:08 ◼   ► doesn't have that, I'm almost like, I'm actively worried,

00:18:12 ◼   ► like something is really weird with this app if it's having

00:18:14 ◼   ► really bad star rating because they have so many more tools,

00:18:17 ◼   ► they don't have to reset them every time and rebuild

00:18:19 ◼   ► that audience, it's like, it's now it's just this thing

00:18:21 ◼   ► that you have, and so it's like, it's nice to,

00:18:24 ◼   ► in some ways that's nice, in some ways that's not so nice,

00:18:27 ◼   ► but I do love that I just, it's a thing that I care,

00:18:30 ◼   ► I have to care and focus less about, you know, I don't have

00:18:33 ◼   ► to actively check and maintain and manage the star rating

00:18:36 ◼   ► of my apps like I used to, and I appreciate that,

00:18:39 ◼   ► being able to just focus on other things that are much

00:18:41 ◼   ► more important to my customers.

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00:19:50 ◼   ► of this show.

00:19:52 ◼   ► - So the other thing that is probably,

00:19:55 ◼   ► big has had the biggest impact on us

00:19:57 ◼   ► as the case was introduced in 2017,

00:19:59 ◼   ► it would probably be the big App Store refresh,

00:20:02 ◼   ► redesign, re-layout, whatever you wanna call it,

00:20:06 ◼   ► and with that, the big changes in the editorial process

00:20:11 ◼   ► within the App Store, where now we have,

00:20:14 ◼   ► in addition to just like a totally new kind of look

00:20:16 ◼   ► and feel, and a bunch of new fields,

00:20:18 ◼   ► where now we can have promotional text that's different

00:20:21 ◼   ► than the description text, and we have a subtitle now,

00:20:24 ◼   ► as in addition to just the regular title,

00:20:26 ◼   ► and the title's got four shorter,

00:20:28 ◼   ► and we can have multiple app reviews,

00:20:30 ◼   ► and the app preview's auto-play,

00:20:31 ◼   ► like there's that side of things,

00:20:33 ◼   ► and then we also have the new kind of everyday

00:20:37 ◼   ► or several times a day editorial process

00:20:40 ◼   ► that has sort of come along with it,

00:20:41 ◼   ► and I think overall, it's been good to me.

00:20:46 ◼   ► It's always like, I mean, I don't know if that's

00:20:49 ◼   ► just a self-centered way to look at this,

00:20:50 ◼   ► but I think overall it's been a slight benefit

00:20:52 ◼   ► that I think the design changes seemed to work better

00:20:59 ◼   ► or at least, at the very least,

00:21:00 ◼   ► they didn't have a negative impact,

00:21:01 ◼   ► and I certainly had some concerns that

00:21:04 ◼   ► because of the reduction in density in a lot of the screens,

00:21:09 ◼   ► that it would have had a negative impact,

00:21:11 ◼   ► but if anything, it's had a slight net positive,

00:21:14 ◼   ► so I like that.

00:21:16 ◼   ► I think the new editorial side of things seems really nice.

00:21:18 ◼   ► Like, I've been fortunate enough to be in a couple

00:21:21 ◼   ► of the roundups or included in some of the daily articles,

00:21:26 ◼   ► and it certainly has an impact,

00:21:28 ◼   ► and it's nice to have seven chances a week for that,

00:21:32 ◼   ► whereas before you had one chance a week to do that.

00:21:35 ◼   ► It was every Thursday, here's the new set of features.

00:21:38 ◼   ► It's kind of nice to feel like we have more options,

00:21:41 ◼   ► and it probably proportionally means that

00:21:44 ◼   ► the impact of any one featuring has gone down,

00:21:47 ◼   ► that having a substantial feature before

00:21:51 ◼   ► would have resulted in more downloads,

00:21:54 ◼   ► but you can now get them more often,

00:21:55 ◼   ► and it seems like once your app is sort of in that world,

00:22:00 ◼   ► where it's on the list of things that are being considered

00:22:03 ◼   ► for featuring, it's reasonably likely that your app

00:22:06 ◼   ► will show up as they kind of cycle through

00:22:09 ◼   ► the different things that they're trying to promote

00:22:11 ◼   ► throughout the year.

00:22:12 ◼   ► So, overall, I think the new App Store

00:22:14 ◼   ► has taken a bit of getting used to,

00:22:16 ◼   ► but otherwise, I like it,

00:22:18 ◼   ► and I think it's had a positive impact overall.

00:22:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was also a little wary when it launched

00:22:23 ◼   ► of just not knowing what kind of impact it would have,

00:22:27 ◼   ► and it's a bunch of very major layout changes,

00:22:30 ◼   ► and major editorial changes,

00:22:33 ◼   ► so it seemed like it was likely to have

00:22:35 ◼   ► pretty wild swings in either way,

00:22:38 ◼   ► and you didn't really know until it launched

00:22:39 ◼   ► whether it would benefit you or not,

00:22:41 ◼   ► and as far as I can tell,

00:22:42 ◼   ► I don't think it really has meaningfully affected

00:22:45 ◼   ► Overcast positively or negatively.

00:22:47 ◼   ► It seems like I kind of got away

00:22:48 ◼   ► with a nice neutral outcome there,

00:22:51 ◼   ► but overall, it does seem a lot more pleasant

00:22:54 ◼   ► to use in a number of ways.

00:22:55 ◼   ► The information density is significantly lower,

00:22:57 ◼   ► and in some ways, that gets in my way and feels clumsy,

00:23:01 ◼   ► but honestly, it wasn't like the App Store layout

00:23:03 ◼   ► and usability and things like that

00:23:05 ◼   ► weren't that great in the previous one either,

00:23:08 ◼   ► so I think it's significantly better than it was,

00:23:10 ◼   ► and all the editorial changes are very welcome.

00:23:12 ◼   ► They're clearly putting a ton more effort

00:23:16 ◼   ► into the weekly editorial stuff,

00:23:18 ◼   ► and now the daily editorial stuff.

00:23:20 ◼   ► One area that this is a little bit,

00:23:22 ◼   ► I don't know if unsettling is the word,

00:23:26 ◼   ► but they've added many ways in which companies

00:23:30 ◼   ► with large marketing resources at their disposal,

00:23:33 ◼   ► like companies that can afford to have

00:23:37 ◼   ► a very large marketing effort that coordinates with Apple,

00:23:40 ◼   ► that reaches out,

00:23:41 ◼   ► that supplies all sorts of different materials

00:23:43 ◼   ► and achieves all sorts of different goals

00:23:46 ◼   ► and relationships and everything,

00:23:47 ◼   ► there is more for them to do.

00:23:50 ◼   ► There are more ways than ever for marketing people

00:23:53 ◼   ► and marketing teams to help boost an app in the App Store,

00:23:58 ◼   ► and that's good.

00:24:00 ◼   ► I think those should exist,

00:24:01 ◼   ► and I think those kind of always did exist,

00:24:03 ◼   ► but now they've been made a little bit more official,

00:24:06 ◼   ► but it also raises the bar for independents like us

00:24:11 ◼   ► for how much of this marketing are we ever really gonna do,

00:24:14 ◼   ► or can we afford to do,

00:24:15 ◼   ► or will we have the tools and resources to do?

00:24:19 ◼   ► That is a little bit less awesome in some ways,

00:24:23 ◼   ► but I think a lot of that's just kind of an inevitable

00:24:26 ◼   ► maturing of the App Store over time,

00:24:28 ◼   ► and we're just gonna have to figure out

00:24:29 ◼   ► how to operate in that environment.

00:24:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, in many ways,

00:24:33 ◼   ► I think it makes me think of search ads,

00:24:34 ◼   ► which is also something that it got enhancements in 2017,

00:24:37 ◼   ► and was something that,

00:24:38 ◼   ► you know, it's like I've just sort of gotten,

00:24:40 ◼   ► as I've gotten a sense of the costs associated with that,

00:24:43 ◼   ► it's just sort of the understanding

00:24:44 ◼   ► that the types of apps I make

00:24:46 ◼   ► don't justify playing in that market,

00:24:48 ◼   ► and that means that I'm never going to be

00:24:51 ◼   ► the thing at the top of a search result.

00:24:53 ◼   ► Even if I am the top search result,

00:24:56 ◼   ► there's always going to be someone else

00:24:58 ◼   ► who is willing to pay more,

00:24:59 ◼   ► and as a result, you know, that's just sort of,

00:25:03 ◼   ► well, the best I can hope for is second place,

00:25:05 ◼   ► and in general, so far, that's been fine,

00:25:08 ◼   ► but it is certainly a bit frustrating

00:25:10 ◼   ► that there's a part of the App Store

00:25:14 ◼   ► that is just not viable for me to take advantage of

00:25:18 ◼   ► that would increase my visibility,

00:25:19 ◼   ► and that's certainly, I see that as my problem.

00:25:22 ◼   ► It's not like it's Apple's problem

00:25:23 ◼   ► for doing search ads.

00:25:25 ◼   ► I think they're useful,

00:25:27 ◼   ► and I'm glad that they exist, I think, overall.

00:25:31 ◼   ► If they'd went away, if Apple decided

00:25:33 ◼   ► that they decided they didn't want search ads anymore,

00:25:36 ◼   ► I wouldn't be sad, but it certainly is

00:25:39 ◼   ► one of the only kind of net downside

00:25:42 ◼   ► of kind of the way that the App Store changes,

00:25:45 ◼   ► and I think the App Store changes

00:25:47 ◼   ► in, if anything, in iOS 11,

00:25:51 ◼   ► made the searches, the stats, even bigger

00:25:55 ◼   ► and slightly more prominent,

00:25:56 ◼   ► just because of the way they change

00:25:57 ◼   ► the layouts of everything,

00:25:59 ◼   ► so that's just one of those,

00:26:01 ◼   ► you know, it's just like one of those things,

00:26:03 ◼   ► but yeah, it is, it's like a net win,

00:26:07 ◼   ► but in that area, it's probably

00:26:08 ◼   ► a much more marginal one for me.

00:26:10 ◼   ► - All right, so to wrap this up,

00:26:11 ◼   ► if you can pick like one number one wish list item

00:26:16 ◼   ► for the App Store in 2018,

00:26:18 ◼   ► do you have any idea what that might be?

00:26:20 ◼   ► - I would love to see Apple further enhance

00:26:24 ◼   ► the app analytics area, especially around sources.

00:26:28 ◼   ► I think that would be very helpful

00:26:30 ◼   ► to get a bit more insight into,

00:26:32 ◼   ► like when someone's, when they say like,

00:26:34 ◼   ► "This percentage of my users are browse,

00:26:36 ◼   ► "this percentage of my users are search,"

00:26:38 ◼   ► having some insight into what they were browsing for,

00:26:40 ◼   ► what they were searching for,

00:26:43 ◼   ► I think would be helpful.

00:26:45 ◼   ► - I like that.

00:26:46 ◼   ► I think that that's something

00:26:47 ◼   ► that I certainly think of that would be nice.

00:26:50 ◼   ► I think I would look forward to,

00:26:52 ◼   ► and it's like, I'm trying to think of other,

00:26:53 ◼   ► like things that I would love.

00:26:55 ◼   ► I love when iOS 12 and watchOS 5 come out

00:26:57 ◼   ► for them to drop support for some old devices,

00:27:00 ◼   ► 'cause there's a couple of older devices

00:27:02 ◼   ► that make development a bit more clumsy and awkward

00:27:06 ◼   ► than I would love, and so I'd love to see that,

00:27:08 ◼   ► them to be slightly more aggressive,

00:27:09 ◼   ► and who knows, the way that the recent battery scandal

00:27:13 ◼   ► shenanigans situation has happened,

00:27:16 ◼   ► maybe they will be more apt to do that,

00:27:17 ◼   ► so that'll make my life easier and their life easier.

00:27:20 ◼   ► But those are the sort of the two that come to mind.

00:27:22 ◼   ► What about you?

00:27:23 ◼   ► - I think within the realm of things

00:27:26 ◼   ► that are actually realistic, like yeah,

00:27:28 ◼   ► I would love for them to drop that 70% commission

00:27:30 ◼   ► and give us more like 85% all the time.

00:27:33 ◼   ► Like that'd be nice, but they're not gonna do it.

00:27:34 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:27:35 ◼   ► - So like within the realm of what's actually likely

00:27:38 ◼   ► and not counting things like API and SDK changes,

00:27:42 ◼   ► for the actual store itself,

00:27:44 ◼   ► the biggest thing I want is better search.

00:27:48 ◼   ► And I don't just mean like different layout

00:27:51 ◼   ► of search results.

00:27:52 ◼   ► The biggest thing I wanna see is improvements

00:27:55 ◼   ► to their relevancy ranking.

00:27:57 ◼   ► That is the hardest part of search.

00:28:00 ◼   ► The hard part of search is not finding results,

00:28:02 ◼   ► it's sorting the results in a reasonable and useful way.

00:28:06 ◼   ► And that's the area in which Apple has so badly fallen down

00:28:09 ◼   ► in the App Store so much of the time,

00:28:11 ◼   ► and that affects both the search results themselves,

00:28:15 ◼   ► and as previously discussed in previous episodes,

00:28:16 ◼   ► that affects the relevance, pricing,

00:28:19 ◼   ► and ranking of search ads as well.

00:28:21 ◼   ► So number one for me, that's I think what the App Store

00:28:25 ◼   ► needs the most is better search, and more specifically,

00:28:28 ◼   ► better relevancy ranking of search results.

00:28:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, I certainly would love that.

00:28:33 ◼   ► I mean, there's some things that is always so frustrating,

00:28:36 ◼   ► and I know this is partly because I have most of my apps

00:28:38 ◼   ► have fairly generic names, which is an intentional thing,

00:28:40 ◼   ► but is also sometimes a problematic thing,

00:28:42 ◼   ► is where someone does a literal search

00:28:44 ◼   ► for the name of my app.

00:28:46 ◼   ► So they type in Workouts++, that's their search term,

00:28:50 ◼   ► and it doesn't show up anywhere in the search results.

00:28:53 ◼   ► It's just very frustrating where I understand why,

00:28:58 ◼   ► I'm sure they're just excluding the plus plus characters,

00:29:00 ◼   ► and then they're doing a general search and so on,

00:29:03 ◼   ► but it's just one of those things where anytime that happens,

00:29:05 ◼   ► it is certainly very frustrating.

00:29:07 ◼   ► And so I would love for that system to be improved.

00:29:10 ◼   ► But honestly, also both as a user.

00:29:12 ◼   ► I always kind of hate when I do a search for an app

00:29:16 ◼   ► or a type of app, and most of the initial results

00:29:19 ◼   ► clearly are apps that haven't been updated in a while,

00:29:21 ◼   ► or are lower quality or whatever,

00:29:25 ◼   ► or just apps that have been in the store for a long time.

00:29:27 ◼   ► - Or are totally irrelevant to what you searched for.

00:29:30 ◼   ► - Sure, so definitely an improvement to that

00:29:32 ◼   ► would be very much appreciated.

00:29:34 ◼   ► - All right, well, here's hoping to a great 2018,

00:29:37 ◼   ► and here's some thanks for a good 2017

00:29:39 ◼   ► to the App Store people.

00:29:41 ◼   ► Thanks everyone for listening,

00:29:42 ◼   ► and we'll talk to you next week.

00:29:43 ◼   ► - Bye.

00:29:44 ◼   ► [