Under the Radar

107: Free with Benefits


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04   I'm Mark O'Arment.

00:00:05   And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06   Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10   So today I wanted to talk about something that I'm sort of having to navigate with

00:00:16   Workouts++.

00:00:17   That seemed like an interesting discussion to have here and a topic that is kind of a

00:00:21   perennial one, one that we've talked about many times around business and pricing and

00:00:26   that sort of thing.

00:00:28   And so for a little bit of background, so Workouts++ is an app that I released right

00:00:33   around this time last year whose primary purpose is to create a fully customizable workout

00:00:41   experience on the Apple Watch and then on the iPhone to provide a much more detailed

00:00:48   analysis and display view of all of the workout data you've ever collected with an Apple

00:00:53   Watch, wherever that came from, whether that's in Workouts++ or somewhere else.

00:00:57   And it's an app that I made because of a few shortcomings or things that I didn't

00:01:05   like about the system app, which is typically where a lot of my ideas come from, where there's

00:01:09   an existing thing that doesn't quite work the way I like, so I wanted to make it better.

00:01:15   I wanted to improve it.

00:01:16   I had some ideas for how I liked it, and so that's why I started it.

00:01:20   And it is an app that I use on a very regular basis, five or six times a week at least.

00:01:27   And I use this app, and so it's very tailored to the way that I think and the way that I

00:01:33   work.

00:01:34   And I'm in the process now of finishing a pretty substantial update to it, which will

00:01:39   be launching hopefully in about three weeks as you're listening to this, which is kind

00:01:44   of bearing down on me now that I have about two weeks left of coding to get all the last

00:01:49   bugs out.

00:01:50   But in about two weeks, I'm going to launch a big update for it.

00:01:53   And so naturally, you start to think about what are you going to do with this new update?

00:01:57   Are you going to make any changes?

00:01:58   It's a good opportunity to kind of reflect on how the app has done and where it might

00:02:05   go in the future.

00:02:07   So in the initial version, the version that I launched last December, the app was paid.

00:02:14   It was a $5 app.

00:02:16   And my reasoning for that initially was coming from a place that it is a very focused sort

00:02:24   of power user niche kind of a thing.

00:02:26   Like A, you have to have an Apple Watch for it to be useful, period.

00:02:30   So that's reducing my potential audience to down quite dramatically.

00:02:36   I think for my analytics, for health-conscious people, right around maybe 10% of them have

00:02:42   an Apple Watch.

00:02:43   Or, of iPhone users, I mean, so that's pretty small.

00:02:48   And then you need to want more than you get out of the built-in app.

00:02:51   So it seemed like, well, there's not that many people who might use this.

00:02:54   So maybe I'll make it paid.

00:02:56   Maybe I'll take that approach.

00:02:58   And also, it seemed like it was a fairly premium in the sense of it's trying to do more.

00:03:03   It's allowing you, if you really care about this kind of stuff, you can tweak and adjust

00:03:08   and do a lot of things.

00:03:09   And so I was like, let's try that.

00:03:11   And the short version is that it didn't do very well at all.

00:03:17   I'm about to get into exactly how poorly it did.

00:03:20   Before I do that, I always want to just sort of disclaimer things that anytime you hear

00:03:23   people talk about sales numbers or things like that, it's always good to take with a

00:03:29   grain of salt that the two types of numbers you tend to hear are when things go very poorly

00:03:34   or when things go unusually and exceptionally good.

00:03:38   So just something to keep in mind that results not typical.

00:03:44   It's just instructive insofar as helping sort of couch where I'm going to go with this next.

00:03:48   But in the first year of the app's life, the app made $16,000, which is not-- nothing just

00:03:56   needs that.

00:03:57   It's a good run for an iOS app in many ways.

00:04:01   But as you would expect, it probably made 50% of that in the first month and has settled

00:04:08   down dramatically since then to at this point, it's not uncommon to have a day where it's

00:04:14   like zero or one sales is starting to become pretty common.

00:04:19   And I think that's a pattern that is very common with a paid app and just with apps

00:04:23   in general in the app store, that there's this pattern where you might get a little

00:04:26   bit of interest up front and then it just falls off.

00:04:29   And this app in particular, it's competing against such a wide variety of things that

00:04:35   in retrospect, it's probably not unexpected that it's very hard to justify that someone

00:04:41   would pay a substantial-- or at least a substantial in the app store sense amount of money for

00:04:46   it.

00:04:48   And so from that perspective, I kind of view it financially as a bit of a flop now.

00:04:53   It's not something that I think is financially very viable at that point.

00:04:58   And if anything, it's kind of silly that I continue to work on it except for the fact

00:05:03   that I use it every single day and I really like it.

00:05:07   And I have the benefit, I suppose, of by virtue of being self-employed and being able to make

00:05:12   these kind of choices that don't necessarily make sense financially, I can just keep working

00:05:16   on it because I like it, because I enjoy it, and I can support myself with my other apps.

00:05:23   But that brings me to version two, where I think I've been toying with a variety of things.

00:05:30   It seemed obvious that I should definitely make the app free in some ways, because I

00:05:34   think that's just the app store where we find ourselves now.

00:05:39   The paid apps are become-- you have to be doing something else, I think, for that to

00:05:44   be a viable situation.

00:05:47   Almost all of the app stores are free with something else.

00:05:52   But when I made that decision, then it's like you start to get into, OK, should I have ads,

00:05:56   should I have some kind of in-app purchase or subscription situation?

00:06:00   And the more I thought about it for this app, the more I decided that maybe this would be

00:06:04   an interesting opportunity to rather than go down the road of trying to work out some

00:06:11   method to extract money from these customers, who are these potential customers even.

00:06:19   The user base is incredibly small now, and any amount I get from them is still going

00:06:23   to be somewhat immaterial unless I was able to grow the audience.

00:06:28   So any of those scenarios that I came up with, like putting ads into it, it doesn't really

00:06:33   work, because ads tend to work well in apps that you will go to on a regular basis, like

00:06:37   several times a day that become a more habitual app.

00:06:40   Whereas an app like this is something that you might open maybe once a day at best, probably

00:06:45   more likely once a week on the iPhone side, just because that's the nature of how often

00:06:51   do you really need to do deep dives into your past workout history.

00:06:56   And I also just kind of thought, "You know, I don't really like the feeling of ads in

00:07:03   general.

00:07:04   I know they're an absolutely necessary situation, but they weren't my favorite."

00:07:07   And then, so it's like, "Okay, so I do some kind of subscription, some kind of in-app

00:07:10   purchase, some kind of situation where like, well, you get the first X, you can see the

00:07:15   last week's worth of data, but you can't see more unless you pay, and you're putting up

00:07:18   a lot of barriers and pain points in my app."

00:07:22   And I decided that I think what I'm going to try instead is to kind of view the situation

00:07:28   I have that by virtue of having diversified extensively in the past, that I am now in

00:07:35   a position where I can view my existing business, that all my other apps, as a venture capitalist

00:07:46   who is able to finance the development of apps that can just go out and see how big

00:07:51   of an audience they can garner, and worry less about the immediate return and outcome

00:07:58   and squeezing every penny out of the app in the near term as I can.

00:08:02   And so I think I'm just going to make the app totally free.

00:08:04   No in-app purchases, no ads, no barriers or pain points, nothing to try and create a point

00:08:09   of hesitation, that if someone is potentially interested in this, they can go and get it

00:08:12   and try it.

00:08:13   Try the full experience, and the only kind of vague monetization-y kind of thing I'm

00:08:18   going to do is have links to my other apps, which are related and potentially interesting

00:08:23   to that person in the app, just as a "that seems like a reasonable best practice" kind

00:08:28   of a thing, but not even really expecting to make much from that.

00:08:31   But anyway, it's kind of this interesting model, because I've never launched an app

00:08:35   that had no, or sort of an app like this, where I have no immediate financial benefit.

00:08:42   It's entirely a goal or a play of seeing how big of an interest I could get in this app,

00:08:48   when if I take away all the potential limiters, all the potential things that might get in

00:08:54   the way of its growth, and then just see.

00:08:56   And in a weird way, there's a very small chance that it goes anywhere.

00:09:00   There's still a very, the most likely scenario is that even completely free, no barriers,

00:09:05   no one downloads it or uses it in the long term.

00:09:09   But I can potentially, rather than having a very high chance of having a very good chance

00:09:15   of having a very small audience, I have a very small chance of having a potentially

00:09:18   big audience.

00:09:19   So, I don't know.

00:09:20   Is that crazy?

00:09:23   Probably not.

00:09:24   It's just, it's hard to think about.

00:09:26   It's hard for people like us who don't usually do future bets on growth and figure, and thinking

00:09:35   like, "Maybe we'll make money on this someday in the future."

00:09:37   That's not something that we as indie iOS developers usually do.

00:09:43   And that is how a large part of the industry works, so it's probably worth considering

00:09:48   that.

00:09:49   As you kind of mentioned, you kind of said it was analogous to a VC kind of model.

00:09:55   With the disclaimer that neither of us are venture capitalists, I think that's not a

00:09:58   bad metaphor.

00:10:00   In the VC world, they know if you just have a big audience, and more importantly, if you

00:10:05   have growth that seems to be consistent or accelerating, there will be a way for that

00:10:10   to be valuable.

00:10:13   Even if it isn't immediately apparent, even if you defer that value until later, and sometimes,

00:10:20   in many cases, getting that growth is so important and so valuable that they intentionally defer

00:10:26   any kind of monetization just to leave the doors as wide open as possible for people

00:10:30   to come in.

00:10:31   And then they figure later down the road, this can be worth something to somebody, whether

00:10:35   it's direct or whether it's then being sold to someone else, and then they figure out

00:10:39   how to monetize it, or if it never needs to be directly monetized at all.

00:10:43   There's lots of situations where something has value to the people who make it or who

00:10:50   fund it, even if it never collects direct revenue.

00:10:53   There's all sorts of side benefits things can have, or strategic benefits to some bigger

00:11:00   picture.

00:11:01   It's not a bad idea, and it's also not a bad idea to say, "I don't even know what

00:11:06   the outcome could be," but since it's already ... You've already made some money

00:11:12   off of it, and that money has already dried up, basically.

00:11:16   So it's like, on some level, it's like, "Well, what are your options here?"

00:11:23   You ran through the challenges of this particular app, Workouts++.

00:11:28   There's not a lot of places it can be easily monetized in ways that are likely to succeed,

00:11:34   because it is mostly used on the watch.

00:11:37   It's hardly ever launched on the phone.

00:11:41   That's just going to be really, really hard to monetize it in a meaningful way.

00:11:45   So I think you're kind of in a corner here that I don't really think you have a lot

00:11:50   of other options, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, because it would be kind of freeing

00:11:57   to just let go of the idea of direct monetization with this app and just see what happens.

00:12:03   You have enough apps and enough experience out there that you know the kinds of user

00:12:09   numbers that you can get when something has no boundaries, like when it's totally free

00:12:14   or when it's free with an app purchase.

00:12:16   You've seen those numbers, and you've seen what it gets when it's paid up front, too.

00:12:20   I think you have enough experience and data to be able to make that kind of decision.

00:12:26   Yeah, and I think something that is a weird thing to say, but I feel like the thing that

00:12:31   makes me want to do this most is that I've never done it before.

00:12:37   And something that I have found time and time again in the many, many years, what is it,

00:12:42   almost nine years of being an iOS developer, is that the time that I've learned from the

00:12:53   most or expanded my business the most have tended to be the things and the times when

00:12:59   I'm doing something new, where I'm doing something that I haven't tried before.

00:13:04   Because otherwise, I imagine—the problem I so often will fall into, I think, is that

00:13:10   I am doing things the same way that I've done them before.

00:13:15   And sometimes that's good.

00:13:16   Like there's a good lesson to be learned, or there's a best practice that you can

00:13:20   pull from something.

00:13:22   But very often, I think that I get stuck on, "Well, I did this this way before, so let

00:13:29   me do it that way again."

00:13:32   And that is probably in the long term the death of my business.

00:13:38   That if I keep trying to just do the same thing in the same way, even if it can be effective

00:13:42   in the short term, I kind of get nervous.

00:13:45   In this funny way, as soon as I had this idea that I was sitting there, I was like, "You

00:13:49   know, what if I just make it totally free?"

00:13:52   Even though the fact that in many ways that is foolish, there's a definite downside

00:14:02   in a financial cost.

00:14:04   I have a reasonable expectation that if I have a big update and I get a little press

00:14:09   and do my little things, that I would have a nice couple of weeks of income.

00:14:13   But it's the understanding that maybe it's better to not worry about that.

00:14:18   And because I've never had that perspective, that's exciting and interesting to me in

00:14:24   a funny way.

00:14:26   And I think it reminds me of the importance of not being complacent with anything.

00:14:32   To just always be looking for opportunities to try.

00:14:35   In this case, it's a good thing to try because it's not doing anything for me now.

00:14:40   I have this thing that maybe has a potential upside or potential interest somewhere down

00:14:44   the road that's never going to be realized in its current state.

00:14:48   So let's try it and see.

00:14:50   And maybe there'll be a podcast in a couple of weeks or a couple of months where I'm

00:14:53   like, "That was a terrible idea."

00:14:56   And then I can change course or decide what I want to do at that point.

00:15:00   But in a weird way, it's almost like whenever I encounter a place that's like, "I've

00:15:04   never done that before," that makes me doubly and perhaps slightly irrationally interested

00:15:09   in trying it.

00:15:11   Just so that I can finally add that data point into my collection of other data points and

00:15:16   be able to make a better decision for whatever my next app is, whatever that may be.

00:15:20   Well, and there's other value here too.

00:15:23   Like in direct value, you're getting these users and you mentioned earlier that some

00:15:29   of them will buy your other app.

00:15:30   So that's some value right there.

00:15:31   You're going to get a certain number of people from any kind of press you get.

00:15:35   More of them will stick around because there's no barriers to them sticking around.

00:15:39   So then you'll have even more people looking at your other apps.

00:15:42   You'll have some spillover press where people who see the press will look at your other

00:15:45   apps.

00:15:46   So there's direct benefits there.

00:15:47   Also, you are not talking about it on a podcast episode.

00:15:50   You're probably going to talk about it again on at least one more podcast episode.

00:15:54   We get paid to do these podcast episodes.

00:15:56   So you're generating good topics for content for other ways you get paid.

00:16:04   And then if new listeners come in because they wanted to hear how that turned out, maybe

00:16:09   you write a blog post about it.

00:16:11   And you don't have ads in your site, but then those people might come to the podcast

00:16:15   where we have ads, which I'm about to do in a minute, and they might stick around.

00:16:20   So then not only did you get paid for that episode where we talked about this, but then

00:16:24   if they stick around, we can raise our rates down the road.

00:16:27   And then that person has delivered you value down the road of increased money per podcast

00:16:33   episode.

00:16:34   So there's a lot of network effect here that builds over time.

00:16:38   Also, next time you have a new app to launch, you have a place you can promote that where

00:16:43   there's more people listening.

00:16:45   Both the podcast will have more listeners, and then you can even do an in-app promotion

00:16:49   in Workouts++, which has this now massive free audience.

00:16:53   And then you can sell another app.

00:16:56   So there is a lot of network benefit here to you.

00:17:00   Even if that one app itself does not directly make the money, it can cause this network

00:17:06   effect to happen.

00:17:07   I know this is not the current use of network effect.

00:17:10   It can cause these side effects to happen that themselves can bring you value.

00:17:15   Yeah, and I think what's liberating in a weird way about that is I think it's so easy to...

00:17:23   And maybe it's certainly different.

00:17:24   I appreciate that I'm in a privileged position to have other apps and other means of support

00:17:31   that allow me to do things like this.

00:17:33   It's probably fair to say just like, "Yep, I totally get the privileged position that

00:17:36   that is."

00:17:37   That if this was my first app, this would probably not be a great idea.

00:17:43   But because it isn't, because I do have this opportunity.

00:17:47   It's interesting to...

00:17:50   As you were saying, there's all of these other things that, these other potential avenues

00:17:54   for benefit that I typically close myself off to because I get too short-sighted.

00:18:04   And in a weird way, it's so easy for myself and generally I would say the more indie development

00:18:10   community to look down our noses at the more MBA, business-y folks who probably honestly

00:18:18   have a better understanding of all those auxiliary benefits that you were just talking about.

00:18:23   All of these other effects and things that maybe they quantify, maybe they don't, but

00:18:28   they have a better understanding of the fact that it's like, "Don't worry.

00:18:31   Just worrying about the income I'm going to get from an app in the near term is almost

00:18:36   certainly not taking into account the full picture or the full understanding of what

00:18:42   possibly could be coming down the road."

00:18:44   And so as independent developers, we might have to be shooting ourselves in the foot

00:18:48   as a result because we're so focused on this or what's going to happen now.

00:18:54   And maybe when you're starting out and you're trying to launch your first app, that initial

00:18:57   burst of income and having a sustainable living and paying for medical insurance and all of

00:19:02   that, yeah, it's much more important.

00:19:05   But understanding that that's not the only way to live is probably—it's definitely

00:19:11   better to have a bigger breadth of perspective and maybe try and learn from another world.

00:19:17   Like I tend to—consciously and unconsciously, I look down on VC apps in a weird way.

00:19:26   And any time I find myself being elitist or biased or whatever, having a prejudice against

00:19:35   something like that, that's probably not a good thing.

00:19:39   In general in life, being prejudiced just without basis is not good.

00:19:44   So maybe it's good to stretch ourselves, good to think about these types of things

00:19:49   and try and learn from the result.

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00:21:23   So I wanted to talk a little bit about an example I have from this world that I'm developing

00:21:29   is my podcast MP3 encoder called Forecast.

00:21:35   I've gone through similar thoughts as you with like what I should do with monetizing

00:21:40   this.

00:21:41   And this is a specialized tool.

00:21:45   It's a Mac podcast MP3 encoder that lets you make chapters and stuff in them.

00:21:50   And so this is going to have a very small audience.

00:21:53   I think I'd be lucky to have hundreds of people using it, certainly not more than that.

00:22:00   And if you do some quick math, like how much do you have to charge money to make meaningful

00:22:05   money when your customer base is that small?

00:22:08   Like I did like, quick math, suppose I charge 50 bucks for the app, which is I think decent

00:22:13   for like a Mac, a good Mac utility.

00:22:16   So suppose it's 50 bucks.

00:22:17   If I get 500 customers, which is way higher than I think I will get, especially if it

00:22:22   costs 50 bucks, that's $25,000 gross.

00:22:26   After taxes, that's more like $15,000, thanks New York.

00:22:29   And so, you know, it's like I'm going to have to build up the infrastructure and provide

00:22:35   the level of support that people would expect from a $50 app to only make at most maybe

00:22:42   $15,000 over the lifetime of this app?

00:22:45   That's a balance that like, what you have to put in place to support a $50 app properly

00:22:51   to what customers would expect for that, it's not worth that to me to make that amount of

00:22:56   money.

00:22:57   Like I would want to be making more money if I was going to set that up at all.

00:23:00   And if it's 50 bucks, like I think 500 customers is actually pretty optimistic.

00:23:05   I think a way more likely number is 100 customers, in which case I'm making $3,000, which I can

00:23:12   buy a MacBook Pro, but that's about it.

00:23:13   I can buy most of a MacBook Pro.

00:23:15   But like, this is not, we're not talking major money here.

00:23:20   And so it wouldn't be worth the overhead to me of having to support having it be a paid

00:23:25   app.

00:23:27   So I started looking at like, you know, what are the other benefits of this app existing?

00:23:30   I mean, and one of them, and you know, you mentioned like you use Workouts++.

00:23:35   You like it.

00:23:36   And so, you know, I use Forecast.

00:23:38   A lot of my podcaster friends use it.

00:23:40   Soon, once I release it, other people will be able to use it too.

00:23:44   And it benefits us all simply by existing.

00:23:47   Like the fact, just that I wrote it, that is a benefit to me because it saves me time

00:23:51   every week and lets me make podcasts better.

00:23:52   Like, and the podcasts make money.

00:23:55   Even if I never make a dime from it, and even if it has, even if I never even distributed

00:23:59   to anybody else, it already has been worth the time I put into making it just for the

00:24:03   value it provides to me.

00:24:05   And then also there's things like political goals.

00:24:07   Like I, you know, like I believe that it would benefit podcasting as a whole if more people

00:24:13   use tools like this.

00:24:16   And I can advance certain goals I have.

00:24:18   Like I think MP3 is the best format for distributing podcasts right now.

00:24:22   Not AAC.

00:24:23   And if people currently want to use chapters, they often use AAC.

00:24:27   And so I think MP3 is better for that.

00:24:29   So I can put up this tool to kind of advance that agenda.

00:24:32   And I have this other app, Overcast, which has, you know, that does make money.

00:24:38   And there are ways that a podcast encoder could benefit Overcast.

00:24:43   So for instance, Overcast will always support every forecast feature.

00:24:48   Like I, you know, I can make sure that like the way I do chapters in forecast will work

00:24:53   in Overcast because I'm writing both sides.

00:24:55   It's using the same library on both ends.

00:24:58   I can make sure that always works properly.

00:25:00   I can also build new features into Overcast that require some kind of metadata on the

00:25:07   encoding side.

00:25:08   And then I can add that to forecast.

00:25:10   And I can have this, you know, at least the podcasts who use it, they can then use these

00:25:14   features that I can integrate into Overcast.

00:25:17   And so like there are options I have there.

00:25:20   And there are lots of alternative business models I can use besides paid up front, obviously.

00:25:23   There's like, you know, trials and, you know, NAGWARE and stuff like that.

00:25:28   I don't really want to do that.

00:25:30   There is one thing though that could be a direct benefit here is that forecast is used

00:25:36   by podcast producers.

00:25:38   I need to reach podcast listeners for Overcast.

00:25:41   I need podcast producers to promote Overcast.

00:25:44   So I could make it just like the deal is if you use forecast, you need to either buy some

00:25:51   kind of like Goodwill policy or buy like forcibly embedding a promo unless you pay or something

00:25:57   like that.

00:25:58   I could require users of forecast to promote Overcast in their shows.

00:26:03   That's a little gross.

00:26:04   I, you know, I don't like having it be a hard requirement, but I could just put like a little

00:26:07   piece of text somewhere saying, hey, you know, please promote Overcast periodically in your

00:26:10   shows if you like this, you know, and that, you know, not everybody would do that.

00:26:14   Probably a very low percentage of the users would do it, but if any of them do it, that's

00:26:18   still a benefit.

00:26:19   So there are lots of ways that I can look at this and like it's very clear to me that

00:26:23   I do not want this to be a paid up front app because it wouldn't bring in enough money

00:26:27   to be worth the hassle and the support costs.

00:26:29   But there's lots of other things I can do that the more people use it, the better these

00:26:33   effects get.

00:26:34   So it probably should be free.

00:26:35   Yeah.

00:26:36   And I think as you're unpacking, sort of unpacking that what I see is it's exactly the same sort

00:26:42   of situation that you were outlining for what I'm finding myself with, where it's the these

00:26:47   auxiliary effects or network effects or whatever these like these sort of these vague kind

00:26:52   of slightly amorphous but definite benefits that just having it out there as broadly as

00:26:59   possible because taking advantage of the fact that it doesn't like cost us, we're not producing

00:27:04   a physical object that we costs us money to produce like an extra copy.

00:27:08   It's just we can just put the put it out there and it's as many people who's use it as possible,

00:27:12   like there's no ongoing cost to us that that nest sort of almost necessarily accrues all

00:27:19   these other little aside benefits that are wonderful.

00:27:23   And especially because it's like it's not totally orthogonal to like your main business.

00:27:27   Like if it were like you wrote this Mac, you wrote a to do list manager on for the Mac.

00:27:33   Like, okay, that's a bit more complicated to have these kind of these beneficial overlaps.

00:27:39   But like even just the fact of like podcast producers be knowing about overcast is a great

00:27:45   thing.

00:27:46   And keeping in mind that people the people who buy the ads that are shown in overcast

00:27:51   are podcast producers currently, right?

00:27:53   Right, exactly.

00:27:54   Like just making them aware of overcast and having it be a marketing tool like in a weird

00:28:01   way.

00:28:02   It's like whatever potential cost you are giving up whatever that few thousand dollars

00:28:06   is and not have not trying to get money from it.

00:28:09   It's like just viewing it as a strict marketing expense like the forecast is a elaborate advertisement.

00:28:16   advertisement for overcast that is targeted at a very specific demographic, but turns

00:28:22   out to be the demographic that you are trying to reach to buy ads in your app.

00:28:27   Like it is such an interesting thing when you stop if you like when you like all these

00:28:31   little benefits that can appear when you don't worry about the short term benefit of it like

00:28:38   all these down the road like just it's hard to quantify.

00:28:41   It's hard to know but I'm almost certainly the more people who know about overcast that's

00:28:47   better than not so like making it free and just having the goal of it being you know

00:28:53   that as many of as high a number of podcast producers as possible are using it, you know,

00:28:59   that's awesome and especially because like I know which of the apps that I podcast that

00:29:04   I listen to are using forecast because they have great like the way they have great chapters

00:29:11   and the way the chapters work like it all works seamlessly in overcast and so that makes

00:29:15   overcast look good like the more people who do that the better it would be so like seems

00:29:19   like it's a win-win everywhere.

00:29:20   Exactly.

00:29:21   Well, thanks everybody for listening.

00:29:23   We're out of time this week.

00:29:24   Make sure that you download Workouts++, buy it while it's still paid and then buy all

00:29:29   David's other apps and then make sure you use forecast whenever you sit.

00:29:32   In the meantime, please use overcast and please patronize our fine sponsors on the show.

00:29:37   Thanks for listening everybody.

00:29:38   Please like and subscribe and we'll talk to you next week.

00:29:40   week. Bye!

00:29:41   [