Under the Radar

100: Longevity


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04   I'm Mark O'Arment.

00:00:05   And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06   Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10   So this, I believe, should be episode 100.

00:00:14   I'm usually not someone to go to get twos wrapped up around big round numbers.

00:00:19   If anything, really, I should probably be celebrating, what would it be, 104?

00:00:25   It's probably a more interesting number, just that's two years of doing it.

00:00:29   But 100 is a nice, fun number, nevertheless.

00:00:33   And while it's, I don't necessarily want to do an episode just celebrating that, but it

00:00:37   caught me thinking as I was getting ready for this recording and saw notice that it

00:00:40   had a nice big round number.

00:00:41   I was thinking, can we maybe send this episode with balloons?

00:00:44   Is that a thing that we can do?

00:00:45   Yes.

00:00:46   There you go.

00:00:47   We can send it with 100 emoji balloons.

00:00:48   Well, you know, like the message is a fix.

00:00:50   Just like somehow we can, I have to make that into overcast so that when this arrives, it'll

00:00:54   be shown with balloons.

00:00:55   Sure.

00:00:56   But I would allow you to use some confetti.

00:00:59   Can I license your confetti?

00:01:00   You could license my confetti.

00:01:02   I appreciate that your instinct was to license rather than to just copy it like everyone

00:01:07   else does.

00:01:08   Of course.

00:01:09   Anyway, so it made me think about longevity and about things lasting a long time.

00:01:16   And I think it's an interesting topic to maybe unpack a little bit, because I think one thing

00:01:21   that I know for myself is it's easy to sort of desire that longevity in the sense of seeing

00:01:30   someone else who has been doing something for a long time and sort of desire that for

00:01:36   yourself and have that be in some ways the goal.

00:01:39   But that can also be an intimidating thing.

00:01:42   And so it seemed interesting to unpack.

00:01:43   And the first place, before we dive into something like longevity, I think the best place to

00:01:49   start is to start off talking about survivorship bias.

00:01:52   There's a great XKCD comic about this that I'll have linked in the show notes.

00:01:57   But survivorship bias, if you're not familiar with the concept, is sort of a logical fallacy

00:02:02   where you concentrate on people or things that succeed and overlook those that don't.

00:02:08   And this is typically because of a lack of visibility of the things that don't.

00:02:12   But it's easy to kind of get this impression that, wow, all these things are succeeding

00:02:17   and your endeavors, for example, are not.

00:02:21   And so you feel bad about yourself.

00:02:24   Whereas what you're really seeing is the only things that you ever get to see are the things

00:02:29   that are successful.

00:02:31   And you're missing and not aware of the 10 times or 100 times number of projects or endeavors

00:02:38   that didn't get off the ground in the first place or weren't successful.

00:02:42   And so it's just something to always, as we dive into some of a topic like this, I wanted

00:02:46   to bring up just to kind of set a good frame for the discussion.

00:02:51   That even just in this case, we've been able to do this podcast for almost two years now

00:02:57   and 100 episodes.

00:02:59   And that's great.

00:03:00   But it's hard to kind of learn from that success in a interesting way, because usually there's

00:03:07   probably far more interesting lessons from things that didn't make it in terms of mistakes

00:03:12   to avoid or luck and chance or just lots of determination that went into it.

00:03:19   So just something to keep in mind that you're aware of the things that succeed to a far

00:03:23   greater extent than you are to the things that fail.

00:03:26   Oh, yeah.

00:03:27   I mean, and this is true of so many things, way beyond just the software business or the

00:03:34   app business or even things like podcasts.

00:03:37   This applies to pretty much everything in life.

00:03:40   Another kind of similar type of thing to be aware of is, I think I'm stealing this from

00:03:45   Merlin who probably stole it from somebody else who was smart, but the idea being that

00:03:50   you are comparing your backstage to someone else's on stage or front stage, I guess.

00:03:58   I'm sorry.

00:03:59   I'm probably mangling this.

00:04:01   But the point is when you see other things in the world, you are seeing the polished,

00:04:07   presented, edited version of them out there in the world.

00:04:11   And you might be comparing your own work from your point of view, which is unpolished, unedited,

00:04:20   like the raw version of it that's in your head or that you're making.

00:04:24   And you might feel bad about what you're making because it doesn't stack up to what you see

00:04:28   out in the world in some way.

00:04:30   But the reality is you are seeing someone else's final polished, edited product.

00:04:37   So you should only compare, if you're going to make such comparisons, which you don't even

00:04:41   necessarily always need to, but if you're going to make such comparisons, you should

00:04:44   only compare that to what you can make as an edited final polished product, not what

00:04:49   comes out first.

00:04:50   - Yeah.

00:04:51   It reminds me in some ways of the classics of things within something like Instagram

00:04:54   or Facebook or a situation where you get this view of someone's life or their world that

00:05:02   is these brief moments that are perfect rather than the moments on either side, which could

00:05:08   have been awful.

00:05:09   - Oh yeah.

00:05:11   - And so it's just an important thing to keep in mind that, yeah, it's a great point to

00:05:16   be sure that you're being cynical in a good way about whether you're looking at something

00:05:24   that is reasonable to compare yourself to or not, or make sure you're comparing apples

00:05:28   to apples, because otherwise you're just going to be frustrated or annoyed or sad unnecessarily.

00:05:36   So I was trying to think a little bit about how, in general, thing projects have success

00:05:44   over the long term.

00:05:45   And it's really not a particularly interesting conclusion, but the thing that I just ultimately,

00:05:51   I thought of a product going up different directions to talk about, but the one that

00:05:54   just came to mind and I think is the most true is the reality that it ultimately just

00:05:58   comes down to showing up over and over and over again and getting ever so slightly better

00:06:04   over time.

00:06:06   That in general, that process repeated over and over again is what giving a project long

00:06:13   term success will look like.

00:06:15   It's just continuing to show up every day or in the case of a podcast every week, just

00:06:20   doing it and hopefully getting slightly better over time.

00:06:24   And then the result is what you end up with.

00:06:26   I was thinking too how you and I have been podcasting for a pretty long time at this

00:06:32   point.

00:06:33   I looked it up and I think Build and Analyze's first episode was November 11, 2010, which

00:06:38   is 6.9 years ago.

00:06:40   And Developing Perspective, the show that I did before this, started July 13, 2011,

00:06:45   which is 6.2 years ago.

00:06:47   So we've been combined doing this for a very long time.

00:06:51   And if you go back and listen to those early episodes, if you want some comedy, I'll have

00:06:56   a link to the show notes of the first episode of Developing Perspective that I did, whatever

00:07:01   it was about six and a half years ago.

00:07:03   And it is awful and terrible.

00:07:05   And I recorded it with a USB Logitech headset that's like a gaming headset that was the

00:07:11   best mic I had available to me.

00:07:13   And I was trying to overemphasize in my mind from my public speaking training, you need

00:07:21   to talk slowly and carefully, and that's the best way to communicate.

00:07:25   And so it almost sounds like I'm being played at half speed because I was overly doing that.

00:07:31   And it's terrible.

00:07:33   In some ways, I'm glad that it still exists out on the internet because it shows it's

00:07:38   taken me 6.2 years to get to the point that I am now.

00:07:43   And I'm by no means necessarily a like amazing communicator on a podcast, but I am a lot

00:07:48   better than I am then.

00:07:50   And I'm hopefully still getting better gradually over time.

00:07:53   And in order to get from here to there has been years of showing up essentially every

00:07:58   week over that time and just trying to get better and learning from my mistakes and then

00:08:03   trying to do it again.

00:08:05   And that process, that iteration is what gets you there over the long term.

00:08:10   That it isn't one of these things where, at least in my experience, it's not this

00:08:14   like where you have these, it's like all of a sudden you're this massive runaway success

00:08:19   or like things are just all of a sudden out of the gate.

00:08:22   Awesome.

00:08:23   It's like, no, it's lots and lots of preparation and experimentation and trying things.

00:08:28   But in all of it, keeping at it and not giving up instead whenever you hit problems or just

00:08:35   difficulties or struggles to instead sort of turn yourself in a different direction

00:08:40   and learn from that.

00:08:41   But just keep at it over time and keep doing that for six or seven years.

00:08:49   And maybe you can, it's like you're able to then do it better and better and better.

00:08:54   Yeah.

00:08:55   And kind of a parallel to survivorship bias, which you talked about earlier, is, I don't

00:09:00   know if there's an official term for this, but I would say maybe like popularity bias.

00:09:04   By the time something like, something in media, whether it's like a podcast or a YouTube

00:09:09   channel or even like a blog, by the time you have heard of it, you might have just found

00:09:15   it and thought, wow, this came out of nowhere and this person's really good at this.

00:09:21   And man, I wish I could ever be that good at anything or something like that.

00:09:25   But you don't know how long that person has been building up that skill.

00:09:28   Like they could have been blogging or podcasting for seven years before you found them or before

00:09:37   they launched that podcast or that YouTube channel or whatever.

00:09:42   They could have been doing that for a very long time.

00:09:44   And so if you look at some of the, like making a YouTube video is, depending on how fancy

00:09:50   you want it to look, it can take you five minutes if you just do a quick webcam or phone

00:09:56   kind of thing or if you try to do like a professional MKBHD style gadget review, that could take

00:10:03   a week and a giant crew and $50,000 worth of equipment.

00:10:08   Like you don't know, it's easy to look at something, to look at the output of something

00:10:13   and see like, wow, that looks so good.

00:10:16   I could never do that.

00:10:19   But also like if you did it every week or every day for seven years, I bet you could

00:10:25   do it.

00:10:26   But you know, you have to know also that like there is that buildup stage of the skills,

00:10:33   of the audience, of the budget or equipment, if that's applicable.

00:10:38   Like there's a buildup that you probably aren't aware of because you probably didn't see it

00:10:43   if you discovered this thing when it was already popular.

00:10:47   And so don't let that discourage you either, but know that it's there.

00:10:50   Like you know, I tried to make YouTube videos by making, so far I've made one like real

00:10:58   YouTube video with effort into it where I tried to review last year's MacBook Pro with

00:11:02   the touch bar.

00:11:04   And I recently re-watched that video a couple of days ago and it's just terrible.

00:11:10   There's so much about it that's just awful.

00:11:12   And I was trying, I was reaching too far for my current experience and skill level.

00:11:19   I was trying to make like a pro grade video as really a complete amateur.

00:11:26   And I had a couple of good pieces of equipment, but I didn't have everything I needed.

00:11:30   I had no experience making video really.

00:11:33   I had no skill making video or being on camera really.

00:11:38   And so by trying, by reaching too high as my very first one, I made something that wasn't

00:11:43   very good and it was so hard to make it that I haven't made one since.

00:11:50   That was almost a year ago.

00:11:52   And I haven't made a single video since because it was way too much work and I looked at it

00:11:57   and I got discouraged.

00:11:58   I basically, it's like if you ever tried to drive a stick shift and it's like if you start

00:12:02   in fifth gear and then the car just stalls and you're like, "Well, I guess driving isn't

00:12:06   a thing I can do."

00:12:07   It's like, no, like you miss, like you gotta start in first gear and build up, you know,

00:12:13   over time.

00:12:15   And I did it totally wrong.

00:12:16   I had the wrong expectations.

00:12:18   I kind of had impossible expectations of myself given my skill level at that time.

00:12:23   And I tried to do it and it didn't work and I got discouraged.

00:12:27   That's a very dangerous and very common trap to fall into where the very first thing you

00:12:32   try doesn't match what you're trying to emulate or the skill level that you think you need

00:12:39   to have.

00:12:41   But that's again, if I want to do that kind of YouTube thing, I'm gonna have to start

00:12:46   as a beginner and start making worse videos more frequently and then maybe over time build

00:12:53   up to what I had originally envisioned.

00:12:56   But that's gonna take time if I want to do it.

00:12:58   - Yeah, and I think that is such a key point 'cause it's the, like the most vital thing

00:13:04   is to actually start.

00:13:07   The hardest thing in many ways is just that initial start.

00:13:10   You did a great job of actually doing it.

00:13:11   Like you actually set, you made that first video.

00:13:14   But the thing that's tricky is you need to understand that that starting point is hopefully

00:13:22   the worst thing you will ever make.

00:13:25   In some ways because--

00:13:26   - God, I hope so.

00:13:27   - Like that's your starting point, right?

00:13:29   You're hoping that you will gradually be progressing from there.

00:13:34   And I think it's helpful, I don't know, maybe it's just to make myself feel better.

00:13:38   But sometimes I find it constructive to think of projects in those terms.

00:13:42   Like this first thing that I make is hopefully the worst thing I'll ever make.

00:13:46   And that's okay.

00:13:47   Like I don't need to start with the perfection in mind.

00:13:50   Like I'm never gonna be able to start off perfectly and then like have already arrived.

00:13:56   It's like no, it's like I'm gonna start off making something probably not so great and

00:14:00   then make something slightly less terrible and then slightly less terrible.

00:14:04   And eventually it gets, over time, that process repeated over and over again is how you ultimately

00:14:11   are able to do something good at the end.

00:14:14   And I think that's like, whenever I've been given some advice similar to this, I've always

00:14:19   sort of hated it quietly because it's sort of the unfortunate reality of really what

00:14:27   that means is like, well, you have to work hard.

00:14:29   Like it's gonna take effort, it's going to be difficult and there aren't a lot of shortcuts

00:14:33   really.

00:14:35   Like the shortcuts are preparation in terms of if you can bring to bear skills you developed

00:14:40   doing something else.

00:14:41   Like that's a shortcut that you can sort of short circuit the process with.

00:14:45   But otherwise you're just gonna have to do it a lot of times to be able to know what

00:14:51   to do.

00:14:52   Like when I sit down now to start a new project in Xcode, I know I have a sense of where to

00:14:58   go that is more instinctual than when I started to begin with.

00:15:05   My first projects, I had no idea what I was doing and it would just sort of waddle around

00:15:09   and hopefully I bumped into things that ultimately stuck.

00:15:13   But now I have a better sense of that and that just takes time and patience and hopefully

00:15:19   just the tenacity to not get discouraged when you're displeased with that first thing you

00:15:25   make.

00:15:26   Because obviously ultimately I would be kind of worried in some ways if I made something

00:15:32   and the first time I tried something new it was perfect.

00:15:38   That's in many ways more worrying to me that somehow I was able to do this thing that looks

00:15:44   like it should be really hard or worthwhile, perfectly out the gate.

00:15:50   That's just not the way life works in my experience.

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00:17:56   So the other things that I think are kind of important to unpack if you want to sort

00:18:00   of thinking about how you can build something that hopefully is successful over the long

00:18:04   term is in a weird way, the most important thing is things that are barriers to getting

00:18:09   started in the first place because if you can't start, then there's no way that you're

00:18:14   going to have something that can last a long time.

00:18:21   And in many ways in my experience, getting started is the hardest part.

00:18:24   Getting that first episode out or shipping that first app or whatever it is, that first

00:18:29   version of it is the hardest one.

00:18:31   Once you've done that, now you have this basis from which you can draw from and from which

00:18:36   you can improve from.

00:18:38   And so thinking about things that make it hard to get started seemed a worthwhile discussion.

00:18:44   And I think the first place that I wanted to unpack is something that I've -- when you're

00:18:51   having been an independent developer for a long time now, I've had many discussions at

00:18:56   conferences and meetups or things like that where I kind of talk to somebody and they

00:19:01   kind of have the like, "Oh, man, you're living the dream.

00:19:04   One day I'd love to be an indie too."

00:19:07   And it's funny because initially I think I was just always entirely encouraging, motivating,

00:19:14   like, "Yeah, you could totally do it.

00:19:15   It's awesome.

00:19:17   Go for it."

00:19:19   And one thing that I learned over time, though, and especially with people who I got to know

00:19:23   more personally, is often I think you may actually like the idea of something rather

00:19:31   than the actual pursuit of it.

00:19:34   And you enjoy the fantasy of whatever this thing is rather than the actually wanting

00:19:40   the reality of it.

00:19:42   And that's not really a problem.

00:19:44   That's totally fine.

00:19:46   And if that's something that's enjoyable, great.

00:19:50   But it's also important, I think, to be honest with yourself about which of those situations

00:19:56   you find yourself in.

00:19:57   Like, I have a good friend who, he always talks about wanting to be an independent developer,

00:20:02   but the reality is I'm pretty confident he would hate it, and he just loves the idea

00:20:06   of it.

00:20:07   And once I got to know him well enough that I understood this about him, I changed how

00:20:14   I talked to him.

00:20:15   And it's just like a different kind of a thing.

00:20:17   Rather than getting deep and practical about when he has an idea or a project he's working

00:20:20   on, how he's going to actually end up shipping it, he just enjoys making projects that never

00:20:26   see the light of day.

00:20:27   And that's great.

00:20:28   Enjoy that.

00:20:29   Be honest with yourself, not just say like, "Oh, one day I'll be an independent app developer.

00:20:35   One day I'll do this, one day I'll do that."

00:20:38   That's not really the truth.

00:20:39   It's like you may just enjoy the fantasy of that, and if you're honest with yourself,

00:20:44   that's probably good.

00:20:46   But if you're not, and if you actually do, if you look at yourself and you say, "This

00:20:49   is something I want, and this is something that I want to pursue, and I'm looking forward

00:20:56   to the difficult pursuit of getting there," the most important thing is just to start

00:21:03   doing it, which is overly simplistic, but is incredibly powerful.

00:21:08   I remember how I got into podcasting, and I'm not sure if I've told the story on the

00:21:12   show before, but I for a long time wanted to do podcasts.

00:21:18   At the period of time, I was just loving podcasts.

00:21:20   I was listening to podcasts all the time, and I kept having this feeling of, "You know,

00:21:23   I wonder if I could do that."

00:21:25   I remember listening to an episode of Back to Work.

00:21:28   This is with Merlin Mann and Dan Benjamin.

00:21:30   This is probably back in the first five or six episodes of that show.

00:21:34   I remember one of the things Merlin said was, "If you think you want to do something,"

00:21:39   he was using it in the context of writing, but it worked just as well for podcasts.

00:21:43   He was like, "You just need to sit down and do it every day for a month.

00:21:47   At the end of that month, you will either love writing, or in this case, podcasting,

00:21:52   or you'll hate it, but you'll know that.

00:21:54   If you love it, then you'll have this experience that you can draw from and improve upon.

00:21:59   If you hate it, then at least you can put that dream aside and not waste time with it."

00:22:05   In my case, it's just one of those things where it clicked, and I was like, "I'm

00:22:08   going to do that."

00:22:09   So I recorded the first five days a week, so it would have been 20 episodes.

00:22:17   The first 20 episodes of Developing Perspective, I recorded one each day for five episodes

00:22:23   a week for a month.

00:22:25   I'm sure hardly anybody listened to them, but I went through the process of doing it,

00:22:29   and I got to the end, and I was much better than I was in the beginning, and I found that

00:22:34   I really enjoyed it.

00:22:37   Rather than trying to guess as to whether I would enjoy it, it's like, "Let's just

00:22:43   try it."

00:22:44   It was just a month.

00:22:45   If I tried this for a month, and Developing Perspective was 15 minutes a day, it was a

00:22:49   very short show.

00:22:52   By getting started, though, I learned that I enjoyed it.

00:22:55   Now, six and a half years later, I'm still doing it, because I made that choice back

00:23:00   then to just get started, to see if I actually enjoyed it, and rather than just leaving it

00:23:06   as this vague, amorphous dream that's just hanging off on the side.

00:23:11   It's important also to learn that.

00:23:15   To be honest with yourself, when you are about to start doing something like that, are you

00:23:20   thinking about doing this thing or wanting to do this thing because you are likely to

00:23:25   enjoy the process of doing it and that you might want to do it for a long time, or is

00:23:31   something else maybe biasing your opinion here?

00:23:35   If it's a hobby that requires you to buy new gear, this is a common thing, whether

00:23:40   it's fancy notebooks all the way up to video cameras.

00:23:44   Are you wanting to do this because you like buying new gear or because you actually want

00:23:48   to do the thing?

00:23:49   I am a victim of this myself constantly.

00:23:51   I love buying new gear, and oftentimes I buy more gear than I actually want to end up using

00:23:56   it long term.

00:23:58   Video was a great example of that.

00:24:02   One of the reasons why I want to be on YouTube in some way greater than I am now is because

00:24:06   there's a ton of people there, and I want to be able to grow my audience for my other

00:24:09   stuff using YouTube as leverage.

00:24:11   That's not a great reason, honestly.

00:24:14   All that's saying is I want to succeed in my other stuff, not that I want to make videos.

00:24:19   And so you have to be careful when you're looking at something as a new project.

00:24:25   Are you interested in it for reasons that are likely to succeed for you, likely to work

00:24:30   out for you?

00:24:31   Or are you interested in it because you want to buy fancy gear or you want to make money

00:24:35   or something like that?

00:24:36   Yeah, and to that end, it's a good example of I suffer from the same gear and equipment

00:24:45   distraction with new projects.

00:24:48   It's so easy, I think, to focus on the gear or the equipment rather than the actual work

00:24:54   to be done.

00:24:55   I remember I had to make the choice with podcasting as an example.

00:25:00   The reason the first episodes are recorded on that USB headset that I had sitting in

00:25:05   my closet is because I said to myself, "If I do this five days a week for a month, then

00:25:11   I can buy myself a nice microphone."

00:25:14   And I pushed the gear choices and those distractions off into the future and said that it's better

00:25:22   for that first episode to sound a little crackly and to sound not perfect.

00:25:27   It's far better for that and for me to actually do it rather than sort of like, perciparating

00:25:31   back and forth about which microphone should I get.

00:25:34   It's like pushing those things off both is helpful in removing the distraction now, as

00:25:38   well as in that case, it was a nice incentive that I gave for myself.

00:25:43   When I got to the end of that month and I had been doing it, it's like I have this

00:25:46   nice reward waiting for me that I feel like I earned, which was in itself then motivating

00:25:51   and encouraging to keep at it because like, "Hey, now I've got a good microphone.

00:25:54   I'm going to sound even better."

00:25:56   So pushing those kinds of distractions off as much as you can can be incredibly helpful.

00:26:01   Don't worry about, "What kind of Mac do I need to get if I want to be a developer?"

00:26:06   Any Mac will do.

00:26:07   It doesn't matter.

00:26:08   Just start doing it.

00:26:11   If and when it becomes something that needs more horsepower and you need a bigger computer,

00:26:17   great.

00:26:18   But that's going to be down the road.

00:26:19   It doesn't have to be right now.

00:26:21   Yeah, exactly.

00:26:23   And yeah, gear selection not only can be a way that can bias you into choosing something

00:26:30   that maybe you shouldn't or won't want to do long term, but it also can be a procrastination

00:26:35   mechanism.

00:26:36   It's like, "Well, I can't start this podcast until I have a really great microphone

00:26:40   and it's going to take me six months to research that or to waffle over which one

00:26:44   to get or to get enough money to get a really good one."

00:26:47   Whereas just starting and just trying it with whatever you have is way more likely to succeed

00:26:55   because it jumps you over that first hurdle of getting the minimum gear you need to do

00:27:00   a thing into actually doing the thing because that's the harder thing to keep up over

00:27:04   the long term.

00:27:06   Everybody can buy a microphone, but not everybody can show up every week and make a podcast

00:27:12   that they enjoy making and that anyone else enjoys listening to.

00:27:17   The actual making of the thing, the actual doing of the thing is going to take way more

00:27:21   time long term and whether you can and enjoy doing that, it matters way more than whatever

00:27:29   gear you picked at the beginning.

00:27:31   So it helps to jump right over the gear selection in a fast, easy way possible just so you can

00:27:37   then get to the actual hard part to see if you can actually keep up the content side

00:27:42   of it.

00:27:43   Yeah.

00:27:44   I'm trying to think of the other things that are hard to keep me from starting.

00:27:48   I think the last one, and it's probably a good place to wrap up, is I was thinking about

00:27:53   the fear of failing or just fear in general.

00:27:58   I think that is so often a thing that has held me back from doing something is that

00:28:02   I can imagine the worst case scenario and I make that actually bigger than it actually

00:28:09   is.

00:28:10   Something that I have been trying, I mean, this is true in life, but works well for something

00:28:16   like this discussion is to really ask myself if failing would be as bad as I fear it might

00:28:22   be.

00:28:23   If you start something and you put some time and effort into something and it turns out

00:28:28   that, in general, most people's version of failure is obscurity.

00:28:33   Your app doesn't sell, your podcast isn't listened to, no one reads your blog post.

00:28:38   Obscurity is usually the worst case scenario.

00:28:41   It's great.

00:28:42   You fail alone.

00:28:43   Yeah.

00:28:44   If anything, that's great.

00:28:45   If no one knows you failed, okay.

00:28:47   Yeah, no one sees it.

00:28:49   You can try again.

00:28:51   Maybe that gets slightly more complicated if you establish a bigger audience down the

00:28:54   road.

00:28:55   It gets slightly trickier.

00:28:56   But even there, I've found, even once I've had a slightly bigger audience for my apps

00:29:02   and when I first launched them, they get a lot more attention.

00:29:05   It's like, I still launched some pretty terrible things and it's okay.

00:29:08   It's fine.

00:29:09   People forget failures pretty quickly.

00:29:12   They remember your successes and they tend to forget your failures for the most part.

00:29:16   So don't worry about it.

00:29:17   Just move on with it and try.

00:29:19   Yeah.

00:29:20   All right.

00:29:21   That's all the time we have for this week.

00:29:22   So good luck everybody with whatever you're going to start.

00:29:25   And thanks for listening and we'll talk to you next week.

00:29:28   Bye.

00:29:28   [ Silence ]