Under the Radar

131: Dot-App and Microsoft's 95%


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04   I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:06   And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10   So today we are coming back to more topical things, more real-time news and those types of topics,

00:00:19   as we are now entering into the beginnings of the really fun seasonal news time of year,

00:00:25   where we are starting to have other developer conferences for other platforms.

00:00:30   So Microsoft Build just happened, Google I/O is happening right now as we are recording,

00:00:35   and then we are starting to head towards the W2C in just under four weeks from now,

00:00:41   three weeks from now, something like that. It's getting very close.

00:00:44   So we have some really interesting topics, and we have a couple of those that we are going to unpack today.

00:00:49   And I think the first thing that I wanted to talk about is to talk about the new .app TLD domain

00:00:57   that just reached general availability, I think it was yesterday as we were recording.

00:01:02   So for anyone not familiar, a couple of years ago, a whole explosion of new top-level domains,

00:01:11   which are the things that come after the final period in a URL.

00:01:15   So originally it was things like .com, .net, .org, .gov, and then they've expanded it.

00:01:20   Now you have all these silly ones like .pizza, .camera,

00:01:24   and one of the more interesting ones is that Google acquired the rights to manage the .app domain,

00:01:32   which as app developers is potentially interesting.

00:01:36   And it was originally, I think, a little unclear as to what Google's intentions and plans were with it,

00:01:42   exactly what they were going to do, but as of right now, it's just a top-level domain that anyone can register a domain with.

00:01:51   There was an original period, if you had a trademark for an app name, you could have applied for early access to it.

00:01:59   There was a period where you could have paid extra money to acquire a domain.

00:02:04   All those are passed, so it's not particularly interesting to talk about those at this point.

00:02:08   But at this point, anybody can register a domain just like anything else.

00:02:11   There's that sort of standard land rush period where I'm sure the more generic or highly sought-after domains

00:02:20   may have sort of already been all gobbled up, but in general, it's now something that you can do,

00:02:25   that you can register and you have...

00:02:27   So for example, I registered pedometer.app for my app, pedometer++.

00:02:32   That seemed like a good thing to do.

00:02:35   It's kind of a funny thing though, because I registered it because it felt like I wanted to own that.

00:02:40   I'm not really sure if it makes any sense for me in many ways though.

00:02:45   The way people download my app is not through going to Safari, typing in a URL, and hitting go.

00:02:53   They're either going to search for it in Google, they're going to search for it in the App Store.

00:02:57   I think my analytics read this out, that the percentage of my traffic that is coming from actual...

00:03:04   just people typing in a URL and going to it is very low.

00:03:07   But at the same time, it seemed like something that would be wise to own.

00:03:11   But I think there's an interesting discussion around if this makes sense, if it's important,

00:03:15   is it just another kind of random tax that we're paying now?

00:03:19   But anyway, so did you register any, Marco?

00:03:22   I actually did, and the process I think might be interesting to people.

00:03:25   I don't know, because you mentioned the phases of general availability,

00:03:30   and the first phase, which is called sunrise, this is any top-level domain that gets launched,

00:03:35   they seem to go through these same phases recently, sunrise, land rush, and then I think general availability,

00:03:40   or whatever the last one is called.

00:03:42   During sunrise, only trademark holders can register.

00:03:45   During land rush, anybody can, and whoever gets there first gets it, but it's at a higher price.

00:03:50   And then after that, it's just quote regular pricing, whatever that means, and also anybody can register.

00:03:57   I went through the process, because I have a trademark on the word overcast,

00:04:01   I went through the process to register overcast.app during the sunrise phase and actually get my domain

00:04:06   assured to me as a trademark holder.

00:04:09   I've talked a little bit about having trademarks in the past.

00:04:12   It is not cheap to have a trademark file.

00:04:15   I mean, for me, I hire a law firm that specializes in this to do it,

00:04:19   and every trademark I file ends up costing I think roughly around $3,000 US.

00:04:26   So this is not a small thing for most indie developers,

00:04:29   and there's lots of reasons why you might just not need to,

00:04:32   and I think most developers probably don't need to file trademarks,

00:04:35   but it does help if you do, and if you can afford them,

00:04:39   it helps in things like takedown requests for apps that are squatting on your name,

00:04:43   like fraud apps, or like I don't have an app in the Google Play store,

00:04:47   but if somebody launches a podcast app called Overcast in Google Play,

00:04:51   I can file a complaint with them and say, "Look, I have this trademark. This is not me. Take it down."

00:04:55   And same thing with Apple. You can file a trademark takedown request,

00:04:58   and generally those are handled a lot faster and more reliably

00:05:02   than other types of takedown requests that you might file with them.

00:05:05   Like if somebody rips off your name or icon or tries to just clone your app in most ways,

00:05:10   most of the app store is not going to do that much.

00:05:13   Apple used to be more responsive with that.

00:05:16   Now they kind of just go back to you and say,

00:05:18   "Here, you two, work it out yourselves and let us know how it goes."

00:05:21   And of course, the person's pointing at your name is like,

00:05:24   "I didn't do anything wrong,"

00:05:26   and the burden's on you to try to argue with them and Apple to do anything.

00:05:29   But if you have a trademark, it makes those arguments a lot faster and easier

00:05:32   for you and for Apple and Google and everybody else to deal with.

00:05:36   So that's one reason to have it.

00:05:38   And it also just adds value to your app in case of acquisitions down the road,

00:05:42   having a trademark is useful, and just helps.

00:05:46   Getting a trademark also helps reasonably ensure that other people

00:05:51   are probably not going to make a trademark claim against you

00:05:54   because the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office looks at similar things

00:05:58   when they issue your trademark, and if there's anything close to it,

00:06:00   they won't issue it in theory.

00:06:02   Not everybody's perfect, but in theory, that's how that works.

00:06:05   So anyway, all good reasons to have trademarks.

00:06:07   And because I have a trademark on Overcast,

00:06:09   I decided to go through the Summarize Registration phase on .app

00:06:13   and actually register overcast .app in that way.

00:06:16   I had never done anything like that before,

00:06:18   so I figured I'd give it a try and see what the process is.

00:06:21   It's kind of weird. Basically, I went to my registrar for most things.

00:06:25   I use either Hover or Gandhi, and so I went to, in this case,

00:06:29   I use Gandhi because they had it first. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

00:06:32   I went to the registrar, and I did the search for the Summarize Registration,

00:06:36   paid for it, and then they have you, before you're allowed to place the order,

00:06:40   you have to upload like a signed certificate file from a trademark broker

00:06:46   that they certify that can verify that you are the trademark owner.

00:06:51   And I don't know if there's more than one.

00:06:53   It seemed like there was only one. It's called Trademark Clearing House,

00:06:56   and so I had to go register with Trademark Clearing House

00:06:59   and then fill in all the info from my trademark registration with them,

00:07:03   and then they had somebody and pay them, I think, a hundred and fifty bucks,

00:07:07   something like that or a hundred bucks, and they filled out or they inspected it.

00:07:11   I had one thing wrong. I had like one of the activation dates was wrong.

00:07:14   They rejected it at first. I had to go back, file again, fix the date,

00:07:18   and then they approved it, so then they allowed me to download the certificate file

00:07:22   that cryptographically is signed by them that says, "Yes, I am indeed the trademark owner."

00:07:27   I uploaded that file to Gandhi's website when I was registering the domain during sunrise,

00:07:31   paid the hundred or a hundred and fifty bucks to Gandhi also,

00:07:34   so we're in for about three hundred bucks so far, and then finally got the name.

00:07:39   And I only have to do that once. Subsequent registrations will be easier,

00:07:43   and I think cheaper. So I also tried to register a few names that I don't have trademarks on,

00:07:49   at least not yet. I tried to register Forecast, which I have a pending trademark application,

00:07:54   but it's not issued yet, so I tried to register Forecast.app.

00:07:57   I also tried just kind of, you know, let's see if I can get it.

00:08:00   I tried registering Podcast and Podcasts.app, and all three of those that I tried to register

00:08:06   during the land rush phase, which is where anybody can register, but it just costs a little bit more,

00:08:10   I lost all three of them. All three, because basically, whichever registration gets sent in first

00:08:16   by one of the registrars, that's just what gets it, and I lost all three of those.

00:08:20   So the only one I have that I actually succeeded in buying is Overcast, which is the one I have the trademark for.

00:08:26   Yeah, and I would imagine, too, I know Apple has trademarks on Podcasts as a word as well,

00:08:32   so who knows if Apple themselves went through the trademark phase with those domains as well.

00:08:41   So it could have even been snapped up just even by a trademark holder in that way.

00:08:46   Even though Podcast is now a fairly generic term at this point, they still hold a trademark to it.

00:08:52   The value of domains, like you mentioned a little bit ago, you mentioned how it kind of feels like just like a tax.

00:08:58   I already have a perfectly fine domain. I have Overcast FM, and Forecast just has a page on Overcast.

00:09:04   It doesn't really have its own domain, and I don't need podcast.app, really. It would have been cool if I could get it,

00:09:10   but I didn't, so oh well. The value of domains is questionable in this day and age.

00:09:16   As you mentioned, most of your customers don't--like, most people don't just type in arbitrary domain names

00:09:21   seeing if they'll work. It's like, "I need a podcast app. I'm going to type in podcast.app into my browser

00:09:26   and just get whatever's there." Like, nobody does that. Everybody just searches either the App Store or web search engines

00:09:32   whenever they want something. So the reality is that the value of domains is not that high,

00:09:39   especially now that now there are so many top-level domains that you can register for general use

00:09:45   that any given one--like, any name you want, you can probably get, you know, whatever comes before the dot,

00:09:53   you can probably get whatever you want at one of these domains, you know, within reason.

00:09:57   And it doesn't really matter if, you know, does it matter if I'm overcast.fm or overcast.app or overcast.site

00:10:04   or overcast.plumbing? No, not really. Like, it's--you're lucky these days if the browsers even show a URL at all

00:10:11   when you're browsing the web, let alone, like, paying too much attention to your domain name.

00:10:16   So it really doesn't matter that much anymore which top-level domain you get.

00:10:20   I was, though, I was excited about dot.app because a lot of the new ones are, like, kind of too specific

00:10:27   or too wordy. Like, one of the things about dot.com and dot.net and dot.org and to some degree even dot.fm

00:10:35   is, like, these aren't words themselves. So, like, your brand name was whatever was before it

00:10:41   and whatever was after it didn't matter. So, like, my brand name is not overcast.diamonds.

00:10:46   My brand name is overcast. And if you have a short domain name that is just kind of, you know, letters

00:10:53   or very generic, like, app or dot.com or dot.us, things like that, it's--the focus comes on the name

00:11:01   that comes before it. And a lot of these new--like, diamonds and plumbing and, you know, dot.rentals

00:11:07   and everything, a lot of those new names, they are themselves words that have to become part of your brand.

00:11:13   It kind of ends up sounding like--just like a big generic phrase. And that's--I've never really taken to that.

00:11:20   Like, I don't think most of the new TLDs are useful in that way because they're too wordy and specific.

00:11:27   But dot.app is nice. It's one of the few that has launched, you know, in recent years where that actually is,

00:11:35   you know, short and generic enough that you can build a meaningful brand on it without it just kind of reading

00:11:42   and sounding weird. So I'm actually very happy about that. I--you know, it still doesn't matter as much

00:11:48   whether you have a certain domain. It matters more that you have a domain and that you're not, like, you know,

00:11:54   hosted on, like, you know, something dot, you know, wordpress.org or dot.tumblr.com for your, like, app site

00:11:59   or whatever. But otherwise, you know, any domain is pretty much fine. So it doesn't really matter if you get this one

00:12:06   or not. Some are easier and more clear than others. But most people who are going to hear about your app

00:12:11   are going to do it via search or tapping an ad or something like that anyway. It's not going to be through just typing

00:12:18   in arbitrary domain names because--and even, you know, when you type in the URL bar, you're usually just automatically

00:12:23   doing a search anyway. So again, it's--the value of having a particular domain is not very high.

00:12:30   Yeah, I mean, I think really all the main benefit I see for this is, like, it's a slightly more memorable--

00:12:35   it's like a short code in some ways for your--like, it seems more memorable that if, you know, if you meet somebody

00:12:43   and they say, "Oh, what'd you do? Oh, I make a podcast player. Oh, what's it called? Overcast." It's like, you can just, like,

00:12:49   be able to say overcast.app, like, has a--it seems like that's a reasonably memorable experience for them, potentially.

00:12:57   Like, it ties together what it is with its name. Now, fair enough, I'm not sure of how you--beyond, like,

00:13:04   all they're really--are potentially probably doing is using it as a way to get redirected into the App Store,

00:13:10   which is ultimately what you want, and they--and it probably maybe comes into more into play if you have really poor

00:13:16   search ranking in the App Store, that if you search, you do--you know, and unfortunately, many times, even if you search

00:13:22   for the exact name of an app in the App Store, it still won't be the number one hit, especially after a search ad.

00:13:28   Like, you--like, in those situations, I could see it coming more into play that if you are doing more advertising

00:13:36   outside of the App Store or finding ways to drive people to your App Store page, which I'll actually tie into our next topic,

00:13:43   a little sneak peek there, but if you are doing more of those types of activities where you're trying to drive people

00:13:50   externally into the App Store, it, like, it may be slightly useful, but yeah. Like, I mean, mostly with this kind of stuff,

00:13:55   I feel like it's like, yeah, it's--I feel like it's a responsible thing to do, and mostly I just don't want someone else to have it.

00:14:01   I mean, it's sort of like, when a new platform comes around and you, like, snag your own name, like, even if you don't expect

00:14:07   to use the service, it's like, there's just a certain amount of vanity around that, but, you know, anyway, it's just like,

00:14:13   if you are an app developer, it's probably a reasonable place to start, that if you're making a new app,

00:14:19   that rather than getting a .com domain, getting a .app domain seems reasonable.

00:14:24   - It's also nice to just have the, kind of like, you know, like the land availability is reset on this.

00:14:30   Like, you're not gonna get a .com for pretty much anything anymore. It's really hard and really expensive usually,

00:14:35   'cause you gotta usually buy it from a squatter, and at least with .app, there is a lot of that same problem.

00:14:40   There's lots of people that are squatting on it already and that will continue to squat on it, but it's gonna be less than .com.

00:14:45   So, at least we'll have a chance of maybe getting one of them.

00:14:48   - Yeah, and especially in this initial period, so like, if you have an idea or you're working on an app, like, this is the opportune time

00:14:54   to go and sort of snap it up. I mean, it wasn't very, I don't think they're particularly expensive.

00:15:00   Like, some domains have really high, even just regular costs, but I think these were, I don't know, it was like, 20-ish, 25, something like that, dollars?

00:15:09   - Yeah, that's within the realm of, like, reasonable average cost. Like, you know, .fms are like 70 bucks a year.

00:15:15   - Yeah, and I don't believe it was that much. I'm not entirely sure, 'cause I think I ended up, I paid slightly more

00:15:22   because I registered inside of one of the, like, the escalating early tiers. For mine, I have no idea which price, but I think I ended up paying $124.

00:15:31   So, I have no idea, like, exactly what phase that was, but I think it got the impression the renewal price would be more like in the 20s and somewhere around there.

00:15:40   - Yeah, and so the two other things to mention about this before we move on, I do think it's interesting that they are requiring, at the registrar level,

00:15:48   they're requiring all .app sites to be served over SSL. And that, and I'm not sure, I assume there's some kind of DNS trick they're doing

00:15:56   where they coordinate with the browsers and things to say, like, basically to enforce strict transport security at the top-level domain level

00:16:03   to say, like, this domain shall always be served HTTPS only. And so I haven't read up on, like, exactly how they're doing that,

00:16:10   but it's an interesting concept. Ultimately, you know, most sites are going HTTPS anyway, but that does certainly add, like, a barrier to entry here

00:16:20   that is not present on regular domain names that I'm not sure is entirely necessary. And, you know, by raising the barrier to entry, you also just, you know,

00:16:28   you make it harder for people to make new sites, and I don't think that's healthy. The other thing is that this is a top-level domain that is owned by Google

00:16:38   and run by Google, and that just makes me a little uneasy. Now, in reality, this is not the first big company that has other business interests

00:16:49   besides domain registration that is a top-level domain registrar. Like, for instance, I believe .blog is run by Automattic, the parent company of WordPress.

00:16:56   Yes. And so, like, there are other instances where recently, especially in recent years, where, like, tech companies whose business is not domains

00:17:05   end up becoming the registrar. Like, they apply. There's this application process with, I think, with ICANN or something. Anyway, they apply, and they get granted,

00:17:14   like, exclusive registration rights for this TLD. I find that whole thing a little bit weird, and it certainly creates the potential for weird conflicts of interest

00:17:23   or weird biases. Like, for instance, Google might now prioritize .app rankings when people search for an app name. They might uprank things that are hosted on .app domains,

00:17:37   which both disincentivizes people from using other things and gives Google a big monetary incentive to keep selling those .app domains to all of us,

00:17:47   and it tells us, like, maybe we should buy a .app domain, even if we weren't planning on it, because Google's going to penalize us if we don't.

00:17:53   So that's a potential here that I'm not looking forward to. The only saving grace for me that prevents me from totally going off the mental deep end about how bad it is for companies like this to own the TLDs

00:18:05   is that the other companies that have been top-level registrars in the past, people like Verisign, are also just, like, shady, horrible companies a lot of the time.

00:18:15   Their track record is not good, and so as bad as it is to have companies with potential conflicts of interest in here or anti-competitive behavior,

00:18:28   the reality is the previous companies that administered domains like this were not much better, and at least Google is a little bit more publicly accountable than a lot of those other companies were.

00:18:40   So I was worried, but once I thought a little bit more about it, I figured, well, it doesn't necessarily need to be as bad as I thought it was.

00:18:47   And at least I would say it is encouraging to me that they at least so far have made no overtures towards making the Google Play Store be, like, A, connected to the .app domain,

00:18:59   because originally I was kind of worried if they were going to do a thing where .app domains were available for Google Play apps, for example.

00:19:10   I don't know the degree to which they could have done that, or if there would have been weird ICANN rules or policy things around that,

00:19:19   but it was also like, did they get .app because they control an app store and are going to kind of merge those two together, but at least so far anyway, that doesn't seem to be the case, which is encouraging.

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00:21:06   So another topic that came up this week that seemed like a really interesting one for our audience was

00:21:12   Microsoft announced that their app store, the Microsoft Store, which I guess is where you get Windows 10 apps,

00:21:18   is changing their fee structure around. So I think previously they had been following the same fee structure that

00:21:24   everyone copied from Apple, where it was a 70/30 split. So the store itself takes a 30% cut off a developer,

00:21:34   in-app purchase and direct purchase revenue from applications. Microsoft is moving away from that towards a,

00:21:42   and this I believe only applies to non-game applications, which is also an interesting caveat, but they're moving to a model where

00:21:50   the split will be 95% to the developer, 5% to Microsoft, for downloads that are made using a deep link into the store.

00:22:00   I don't know the store well enough to know, but I imagine that means if someone just has a link straight to your app

00:22:06   and they download your app, then they're essentially saying that in that case, we didn't do any work for you,

00:22:11   all we're going to be is a payment processor for you, so we're going to charge you payment processor type fees.

00:22:17   And then it's 85% for other purchases. So if presumably this is if they are finding it through the store,

00:22:24   then in that case Microsoft is saying, "Well, we're going to take an extra 10% in those cases because we were acting as a marketing venue for you,

00:22:31   so we're charging you kind of marketing services." Whether this is actually having an effect more broadly in the industry,

00:22:39   if Google or Apple would ever copy this or move towards it, I have no idea. This in many ways makes me think of like

00:22:46   when T-Mobile or Sprint makes some kind of change in the US carrier market, and then it's like,

00:22:51   "Is this actually going to affect Verizon and AT&T?" It's like, "Probably not, but maybe in the long run, I don't know."

00:22:57   There's an interesting kind of tie there because a Microsoft store, certainly on the mobile side, isn't really a thing.

00:23:05   And as far as I know, it's not in general quite as large and vibrant of a market as Google Play or the iOS app store are.

00:23:15   But nevertheless, it's interesting when a big, well-known player comes in and tries to do something like this.

00:23:21   And I think the model they're taking is really interesting, that they're applying this to applications and not games,

00:23:29   and then kind of having this tiered approach. And overall, if Apple announced this, I would be delighted.

00:23:38   Anything like this where it's trying to encourage, presumably, marginal businesses to be able to succeed,

00:23:48   where if you have a massive business, the difference between 70% and 85%, maybe large in terms of the actual nominal amount

00:23:59   that would be reduced and you would get back, but it probably has the biggest, bigger impact on a smaller business

00:24:06   where you would imagine the smaller indie type app where for them getting an extra $10,000 a year,

00:24:16   if their app is making in the $80,000 to $90,000 gross range, that extra $10,000 could be the difference between them

00:24:25   sustaining the app and being able to make a viable business of it or not, and falling away or having to do other things.

00:24:32   And so anything like this that is trying to encourage that type of behavior I think is really cool.

00:24:38   I'm not sure, though, if their particular approach is the way that I would do it. I think it would be great, personally,

00:24:43   if it was more tiered based on revenue. That always seemed like an approach that would make a lot of sense,

00:24:48   especially, I think, certainly, again, splitting out games and non-games. But if non-game applications,

00:24:56   like you could imagine a thing where it's the first $50,000 or $100,000 of revenue you make a year,

00:25:02   Apple takes a smaller cut and then it escalates from there so that you can encourage and nurture the small players

00:25:12   to build out a more vibrant ecosystem. And I don't know, it's an interesting thing.

00:25:17   I would love to see Apple do something with this. I don't know if they ever will, but nevertheless,

00:25:22   it's interesting to see someone else putting some pressure because at the very least, my guess is,

00:25:27   somewhere inside of Apple now, they're having a conversation in reaction to this. And that conversation,

00:25:32   even if it leads nowhere, is still an encouraging thing to have happen.

00:25:36   Yeah, I mean, I think this is mostly wishful thinking because Apple is in a position of power here.

00:25:42   They don't really have any reason to lower their fees. But this does, I mean, first of all,

00:25:48   distinguishing between games and apps I think is fraught with issues like,

00:25:52   how do you define? Is something that's kind of in the middle, like how do you define that?

00:25:56   Do you define it as an app or a game? Is there questions of interpretation of rules and definitions there?

00:26:02   So that's a little bit odd. And it seems like kind of a cheap move because we all know that games print

00:26:07   most of the money in the app stores for most of these devices. So it kind of like lessens how much this actually

00:26:14   costs Microsoft. But I do like the idea, you know, it seems more fair that as the app stores have

00:26:22   gotten bigger and bigger and bigger since they launched like, you know, ten years ago, it, you know,

00:26:27   the value of the editorial and marketing side of them has diminished because there's just so many apps now

00:26:33   that you're pretty much on your own for most of your marketing for almost any app. So it does make more

00:26:39   sense. It is a more fair split that they charge rates more in line with payment processors,

00:26:45   which is basically ten percent or less, I would say. So and, you know, when you direct link in, they say ninety-five percent

00:26:50   you keep. So that is actually very good. I wish Apple would do that. And then that

00:26:55   gives developers incentive to market their stuff outside of the store, which is what

00:27:00   everybody wants us to do anyway. And that is more effective because marketing in the store is so hard.

00:27:05   And then otherwise their cut is eighty-five percent for non-games, which is reasonable.

00:27:12   We already see Apple doing that with subscriptions in subsequent years. And I actually, you know,

00:27:17   that's I make a lot of my income that way. And I don't know exactly the ratio, but like a good portion

00:27:23   of my income is now being hit at the eighty-five percent rate instead of the seventy percent rate, which is really nice.

00:27:28   But ultimately this is just kind of a theoretical, you know, wishful thinking kind of exercise

00:27:35   because, again, Apple is in completely the position of power here. And also,

00:27:40   Apple is now trying to make a lot more of their money from services because their other categories are getting

00:27:45   kind of saturated and growth is slowing down. So I think the chance, and this is where, you know, this is part of

00:27:50   services revenue for them. So I can't imagine Apple ever saying, you know what, seventy percent

00:27:56   through the goodness of our hearts, we think that's now, you know, too little. We're now going to give you eighty-five

00:28:01   or ninety percent on everything. Like that's never going to happen.

00:28:05   Sure. I mean, I don't know. The only thing that I hold out my little bit of hope for is

00:28:11   it's, I sometimes wonder how Apple feels about the way that

00:28:16   even though it is tremendously growing their services revenue, so much of their services revenue is coming

00:28:22   from consumable in-app purchases inside of games. And that is the

00:28:27   area that seems to have the most vibrant, diverse, energetic

00:28:32   ecosystem because that's where the most money is to be made right now. And I wonder if

00:28:37   at the very least there is a part of Apple that wishes that there was more diversity

00:28:42   and vibrancy on the long tail, on the things like the

00:28:47   only on the App Store kind of applications

00:28:52   and that type of more, in my mind, it's kind of that more independent

00:28:57   vibe that they might like to encourage. And what's interesting is because the majority of the money

00:29:02   comes from games and other kind of big venues, I'm not sure if they lowered the rates

00:29:07   for smaller developers, if they would take a big financial hit, but they may

00:29:12   have the ability to turn, sort of slightly dial up the ability for

00:29:17   small developers to be sustainable. So I don't know, yeah, it's definitely wishful thinking, hopeful, like

00:29:22   I don't know if it's actually a thing that would ever come from it. I would certainly like it if they did, but I think it's nevertheless

00:29:27   it's just like, it's interesting to see, and you know, maybe not this year, maybe next

00:29:32   year, maybe never, but it gives me hope that the 30%, 70%

00:29:37   cut isn't something that is forever set in stone. We can hope. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.

00:29:42   Thanks for listening everybody, and we'll talk to you next week. Bye.

00:29:47   night.

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