Under the Radar

89: Computers for the Self-Employed


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04   I'm Mark O'Arment.

00:00:05   >> And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06   Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10   So today we're going to be sort of doing a part two to what we talked about last week,

00:00:15   where last week we were talking about some of the realities and the challenges of work from home

00:00:20   and kind of some things you have to be mindful of.

00:00:23   Today we're going to get kind of a little bit more practical

00:00:25   and dive into some of the decisions that you have to make when you're working from home,

00:00:31   or at least when you're self-employed and having to choose how your computing setup is going to be,

00:00:37   because you have a lot of options about how you're going to do this.

00:00:40   And in the same way that I've tried a lot of different office environments,

00:00:43   I've also tried a lot of different computing environments.

00:00:46   And what I mean by that is I've had the big powerful iMac approach.

00:00:53   You have a 15-inch MacBook Pro that you do everything on, and you maybe connect it to an external monitor.

00:00:59   I have a little 12-inch MacBook that I use for a lot of development.

00:01:04   And I've tried all kinds of various crazy things in between,

00:01:08   because when you're setting up your environment for working, if you're self-employed,

00:01:13   you're the one making that choice.

00:01:17   In the same way that with all these things with working from home,

00:01:20   it's this double-edged sword of it's wonderful to tailor your working environment to exactly what you like.

00:01:27   And you can get crazy detailed about this.

00:01:30   I have exactly the chair that I love sitting in front of the desk that I love,

00:01:34   with the mouse I love, with the keyboard I love.

00:01:36   Everything about my office environment is a choice I made, and that's awesome.

00:01:40   And I didn't have to fight with IT to make that happen.

00:01:45   I can just make these choices, and if there's costs associated with them,

00:01:48   I'm just balancing those costs versus the benefits they give to me.

00:01:52   And in general, I tend to take the approach of, if I think it will make me enjoy working more,

00:01:56   I'm going to do it, because I do this a lot.

00:01:59   I sit in front of this desk a lot, so I want the chair I sit in, for example, to be top-notch.

00:02:04   But I think at its core of any of these setups is,

00:02:08   what computer are you going to choose to do your working environment on?

00:02:14   And I think at a high level, there's probably two approaches to this.

00:02:20   There's the dedicated workstation with probably some kind of portable thing for occasional use,

00:02:29   or you take the primarily portable solution.

00:02:34   My current setup is I have a retina iMac and a 12-inch MacBook,

00:02:40   and that is what I do all my development on.

00:02:42   I do 99% of my development on my iMac, and I have a MacBook for when I'm on the road.

00:02:47   Before that, the approach I had is I had a 15-inch MacBook Pro

00:02:52   that I would plug into an external monitor sitting on my desk,

00:02:56   and you take that approach, where you just have the one-machine-to-rule-them-all approach.

00:03:00   You take that same machine with you when you travel, you take it to your office, your desk.

00:03:06   Wherever you are, you're always working on that.

00:03:08   And I've tried them both, and they have such different trade-offs and benefits

00:03:13   going back and forth between them, because at the end of the day,

00:03:17   what I want is to have a computer where I don't feel impinged on.

00:03:26   It's never impinging on my productivity in a variety of means.

00:03:29   It can be from a performance perspective.

00:03:31   I want compile times to be fast.

00:03:33   I want loading files and going around in Finder to be quick.

00:03:38   I want it to not annoy me in terms of losing track of things,

00:03:43   which I think we'll talk about towards the end of the episode.

00:03:46   If you have any kind of multi-computer setup,

00:03:49   you're going to have to make some complicated choices about how you keep things in sync,

00:03:53   and you don't lose files, and you're not getting into the "Oh, no, this thing that I need is actually on my other computer,

00:03:59   and you have to go find it."

00:04:01   You have all these different things that you need to make sure that aren't getting in your way,

00:04:06   because you want your tools to be sharp and precise,

00:04:10   and because you're making the choice about them, you have no one to blame but yourself

00:04:14   if your tools are getting in the way of your work.

00:04:16   So you have to really think this through and honestly probably experiment a little bit

00:04:21   over the course of a couple of years even to really understand this.

00:04:25   Or you could be you, Marco, and you could just buy every laptop that Apple has ever made,

00:04:30   and try them all out for the two-week return period and then bring them all back.

00:04:35   Oh, I've only returned one.

00:04:37   Oh, you just have a nice corral of them now.

00:04:40   The rest I've kept for too long or sold later at a substantial loss or something.

00:04:47   Yeah, it's been kind of expensive.

00:04:50   People ask us all the time, "Is Mac X good enough for development?"

00:05:00   or "Can you develop on a MacBook?" or "Can you develop on a Mac Mini?" or whatever else.

00:05:05   Everybody asks these questions, and the reality is you can write iOS software.

00:05:13   You can develop software on any Mac.

00:05:16   You can do it on the 12-inch MacBook. You can do it on a Mac Mini.

00:05:19   You can do it on an iMac. You can do it on a Mac Pro and everything in between.

00:05:22   You can do it.

00:05:25   And with some limited exceptions, like if you need a powerful GPU for something that you're doing,

00:05:32   and for some reason you need your computer to have that powerful GPU and not just the iOS device,

00:05:37   then that might push you up into MacBook Pro/iMac territory.

00:05:42   But for the most part, you can develop on anything.

00:05:45   The main limitations are going to be screen space and speed.

00:05:49   For developers, those are the things you need the most.

00:05:52   Number one, you need usually a good deal of screen space.

00:05:57   And number two, it's nice to have some speed, especially when you're compiling larger projects

00:06:02   or especially if you're using cutting-edge tools or things like Swift,

00:06:07   this cutting-edge tool named Swift, that are harder on the hardware to compile.

00:06:13   And all this is just to save you time.

00:06:15   But the reality is, you can compile giant Swift projects on a 12-inch MacBook.

00:06:20   It'll just take a little while longer.

00:06:22   But lots of people do, and they get along just fine.

00:06:26   So it's not so much need as want.

00:06:30   It's a lot more about your priorities, which of these options that you should pick.

00:06:34   So number one is usually people want to know desktop or laptop.

00:06:40   And to me, I'm a desktop person. I love desktops.

00:06:47   My main computer is almost always a desktop.

00:06:51   But the problem is that there will come a time, you know, a desktop is great for setting up in an office

00:06:57   as a semi-permanent workstation, and that you go to the same place every day and use that desktop,

00:07:04   and you never have to take it with you.

00:07:06   And if you're buying a desktop, you might partially rationalize it by saying,

00:07:10   "Well, you know, when I travel, I can just take an iPad or my iPhone and all that."

00:07:13   That's fine.

00:07:14   And that's fine for some people.

00:07:16   But I know very, very few software developers who are fine with that setup long-term.

00:07:22   Some try. Many try, actually. And I'm sure some do.

00:07:25   But almost every software developer I know, at some point ends up, if they have a desktop,

00:07:31   at some point they end up also getting a laptop for travel purposes,

00:07:35   and they can't really do development work today on an iPad or an iPhone,

00:07:40   at least not app development work.

00:07:43   So many, many people will rationalize desktops but will then buy a laptop.

00:07:50   So you have to kind of price that into your estimates.

00:07:52   You have to be expecting that from day one.

00:07:54   And if you are going to go desktop, you have to be prepared to probably take on a multi-computer lifestyle

00:08:00   in the future or immediately, which we'll talk about in a few minutes.

00:08:04   So basically, that's the big warning for desktops is they are awesome for so many reasons.

00:08:10   They are better than having a notebook docked to a desk with a monitor and keyboard and mouse.

00:08:16   Dedicated desktops are even better than that because they can be fast or they can be quiet

00:08:20   or they have certain other advantage, bigger storage, bigger big screens.

00:08:24   Desktop is a great setup for that desk.

00:08:28   But you won't always have to work at that desk.

00:08:31   You won't only have to work at that desk.

00:08:33   You'll work at how much you think that's probably going to change.

00:08:36   So you'll have to be prepared for that.

00:08:38   What most people I think do, if I had to guess the most popular setup,

00:08:43   most developers get a 13 or 15 inch MacBook Pro and that is their only or primary computer.

00:08:50   And they do everything on that.

00:08:52   When they're at a desk, they either use it directly and just get neck pain

00:08:56   or they plug it into an external monitor and maybe have a keyboard and mouse also,

00:09:00   it's a great kind of all-in-one compromise, low compromise setup.

00:09:06   That setup where you have just a laptop, like you have a good laptop

00:09:11   and maybe you occasionally dock it to a monitor and stuff at a desk,

00:09:15   that is probably the best setup for most people.

00:09:19   It is by far the best bang for the buck because you don't have to buy and maintain separate computers

00:09:24   and it is the most versatile because most of the time you have a desktop-like environment

00:09:29   and when you want to or need to take the computer somewhere else,

00:09:33   you can just unplug it from all that stuff and take it with you.

00:09:36   And then you have one computer that always has the files that you want on it,

00:09:41   you are only maintaining and paying for one computer and upgrading one computer

00:09:45   and lots of things become a lot simpler that way.

00:09:48   It isn't the best at everything but it's pretty good at everything.

00:09:52   Yeah, and I think that is the key statement there.

00:09:56   That is probably the right place for everybody to start in many ways.

00:10:02   If you were just an independent and you were just starting off today, what should I get?

00:10:07   Probably go and buy the best MacBook Pro you can afford.

00:10:12   And that is going to work for you. Do 99% of what you need most of the time.

00:10:19   It's never going to do everything as well in some ways as a workstation would.

00:10:23   It's not quite as portable as a very small laptop is.

00:10:28   But it is right in that sweet spot of being like, it's pretty good at almost everything.

00:10:35   It's just not amazing at anything.

00:10:39   And that's a great place to start. I know that's where I started.

00:10:42   My first computer was a 15-inch MacBook Pro and for years that was the approach I took.

00:10:48   And it works pretty well. Especially if you have any job that involves regular moving around.

00:10:56   For a while when I was doing consulting, having a laptop was just a given.

00:11:01   There was no way I could have done that job without having a laptop.

00:11:05   And so I would take my laptop to client sites and I would be working at home and it would be going back and forth.

00:11:12   And I didn't have to deal with syncing things up. And so that was great.

00:11:16   For me in my journey though, when I got to a point that I stopped doing a lot of consulting,

00:11:20   once you taste the experience that is having a dedicated workstation,

00:11:25   like a big, fast desktop machine, it is very hard, I find, to go back to a laptop.

00:11:33   In some ways that's a cautionary tale. Don't try that until you can really commit to it and afford it.

00:11:39   Because it's really, really nice. Your performance is much higher and in ways that you may not expect.

00:11:45   You have a lot more options from a performance perspective.

00:11:49   But just in general, you're always going to be faster because you don't have all these constraints with heat and power that a laptop has to worry about.

00:12:00   Like a desktop, it's plugged into the mains. It has all the power it could ever need.

00:12:04   And cooling is this massive thing.

00:12:07   I love my 5K iMac. It is a great machine. And I honestly love that my main machine is physically tied to the wall.

00:12:16   I have occasionally traveled with my iMac, which is a bit hilarious when you have it seat-belted into the passenger seat of your car.

00:12:26   I had a couple days where I was working at my parents' house or something like that.

00:12:31   And so I just brought my iMac with me.

00:12:34   Which is hilarious, but in general, it has changed to this desk in the best possible way.

00:12:41   Because what I found I would do when I had a MacBook Pro is it was so much easier to start to blur the lines between work and home.

00:12:50   Where it's like, "Oh, let me just check this thing."

00:12:54   And then half an hour later, I'm still just sitting there working.

00:12:59   At a point in the day when I really shouldn't be working. When I should be engaged with the family.

00:13:03   One thing I like now is that sometimes that will happen.

00:13:07   My wife and I have this joke that it's almost like the bat signal goes up and the Riddler's on the loose.

00:13:13   And all of a sudden it's like, "Honey, I've got to go downstairs. A server just went down. I've got to ping Dim Alert and I'm downstairs."

00:13:20   And when that happens, when the Riddler's on the loose and I run downstairs, that's great and I can deal with it.

00:13:25   But it is very clear that I suddenly went to work.

00:13:30   I'm going to this dedicated place and I can't trick myself and lie to myself and say, "Oh, no, no, I'm not really working. I'm still around.

00:13:37   I'm just doing this little thing on my laptop."

00:13:40   And I really love that having a desktop forces me to do that.

00:13:44   And it's nice in some ways, too, that my current setup is an iMac and a 12-inch MacBook.

00:13:52   And the MacBook is certainly not as performant as a MacBook Pro or an iMac or a Mac Pro would be.

00:14:00   It's fast enough. I've done serious work on it.

00:14:03   Like this past WVDC all week, all I had was my 12-inch MacBook and I did some serious development on it.

00:14:09   And it was fine. It's slow, but that's just a choice I was making.

00:14:14   But it is incredibly mobile. It is amazing how teeny and light that computer is.

00:14:19   You have a jacket that can fit it in the pockets.

00:14:22   Yeah, no, I actually do. There's just a little jacket that I can go into.

00:14:25   Or even the thing that blows my mind with it is I will put it in my laptop when I'm packing.

00:14:30   And then I will pick up my backpack and be like, "Oh, no, I forgot my computer."

00:14:34   And then I'll go rifling through my backpack to make sure that it's in there.

00:14:37   And of course it's in there. It just doesn't weigh anything.

00:14:39   And it's amazing. And in some ways I kind of like that it's slow.

00:14:43   Because if I am in that situation, I usually will bring a MacBook with me when I go on vacation with my family.

00:14:50   Every now and then I won't and just kind of hope that nothing blows up or something.

00:14:55   Some situation arises where I really would need to do proper work.

00:14:59   Because that's the other tricky thing when you're self-employed.

00:15:02   You are the on-call 24 hours a day for situations.

00:15:08   I have prompt the SSH client on my iPhone, so sometimes I fix things by just SSHing into a machine or things.

00:15:16   But you know, having a laptop is useful.

00:15:18   But I kind of like that if I'm on vacation and I find myself falling into doing work, it's kind of uncomfortable.

00:15:24   Doing development work on a 12-inch MacBook is a little uncomfortable.

00:15:29   And it's kind of good to have this roughness to that experience that's like,

00:15:33   "Hey, Dave, you probably shouldn't be doing this for too long."

00:15:37   But if you do, you're going to get a terrible neck strain, your wrists are going to start hurting, bad things will happen.

00:15:43   For some ways, I kind of like that.

00:15:46   That work device is geared towards allowing me to do it, but not making it awesome.

00:15:55   And for a travel machine, that's what I love.

00:15:57   And so that's why I kind of ended up in this situation where I have this big beefy iMac downstairs.

00:16:03   And probably this fall end of this year, I'll probably be upgrading to either the iMac Pro or the new Mac Pro, depending on how that all pans out.

00:16:12   But I keep that machine fast, powerful, performant, spend probably a ridiculous amount of money on it because it's a machine that builds my business.

00:16:22   And then I have this teeny light MacBook that I only have for when I absolutely have to work.

00:16:30   And I kind of like that it doesn't do that great of a job, but because that forces me to put it down in those situations where I probably shouldn't be doing work anyway.

00:16:40   This is the most convoluted sales pitch for the 12-inch MacBook I've ever heard.

00:16:45   It works for me.

00:16:46   You should buy this machine because it kind of sucks.

00:16:49   It is, but it sucks in the best possible way.

00:16:54   Because yes, it's also awesome because it's so small, but the fact that it isn't...

00:17:00   If you had a MacBook Pro power in a 12-inch MacBook size, then it's like, "Okay, great. That's awesome. You can totally do that and run with that."

00:17:09   I mean, that would be seriously cool if Apple somehow magiced that into existence.

00:17:14   But the fact that that isn't the case, I love that it's enough.

00:17:18   I've built and done serious work on it, but it never feels good.

00:17:24   And that's okay because I don't want it to feel good.

00:17:26   I want my iMac at home to be where I feel like I'm just super productive and tearing away.

00:17:32   And when I'm on the road, I just want to get it done and then be done and move on and not feel like I want to actually stay there.

00:17:38   Yeah, it's reasonable.

00:17:39   I have the same kind of problem with laptops in general.

00:17:42   I don't like the ergonomics of working on laptops.

00:17:45   I like a desktop with a screen that is two or three feet in front of me.

00:17:50   Well, not three. A big screen that's two feet in front of me.

00:17:53   A big, split ergonomic, natural keyboard.

00:17:56   A mouse on my right arm and a trackpad on my left.

00:18:00   This big setup.

00:18:03   These big honking headphones that are comfortable to wear all day with a big amp driving them with a big physical volume knob so I don't have to mess with little buttons.

00:18:11   I just love desktops and whenever I have to work on a laptop, I always, it's just like what you said, I'm uncomfortable.

00:18:19   And I can get it done, even on a big one, even on a nice 15 inch.

00:18:22   I can get stuff done. I can get a lot of stuff done.

00:18:25   And if that's all I had, I'd find a way to make it work all the time.

00:18:28   But even when I was, there were a few years where my primary computer was a 15 inch or 13 inch laptop.

00:18:35   And during those times, I always had a desk setup where I would dock it and plug in full sized peripherals.

00:18:42   I'm just not comfortable working for any really significant period on a laptop.

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00:20:53   So once you have decided what computer setup you are, like if you're going the approach of having just like the one computer to rule them all, like the 15 inch MacBook Pro, great.

00:21:05   Life is probably pretty straightforward for you.

00:21:07   You download all your tools, you download your source code, and you get to work.

00:21:11   And if that's you, like great, more power to you.

00:21:14   Except when you unplug it from the big monitor and all your windows move.

00:21:17   That is unfortunate. That is most unfortunate.

00:21:21   But if that is not you, and you are going to embrace the multi Mac lifestyle, you're going to have to deal with a few things that can be a little bit tricky.

00:21:32   And it kind of seems like it made sense to just kind of spend the last part of this episode kind of unpacking that.

00:21:36   Because now you're suddenly in this situation where you have two different computers with two different sets of applications on them and developer tools.

00:21:46   And you have two different places that you need to get all your source code, your auxiliary files, your design files, your SSH keys.

00:21:54   Like suddenly all these things need to sort of stay in sync for it to be somewhat seamless.

00:22:00   Because ideally, you can be working on your big workstation at home, and then you go off somewhere, you pick up your laptop, and your travel machine, you open it up, and you can sort of pick up where you left off.

00:22:15   That would be the dream. In order to do that, it can be a little tricky.

00:22:19   And I've tried all manner of approaches to make this work.

00:22:23   And the key thing, and I think the key place to start is to just try and be conscious about what you will need for where you are going to be, and what are you actually working on.

00:22:35   What are the little things that anytime you come across something that you're missing, like make a mental note of this, make a fork out of the way to keep that in sync.

00:22:43   And for the most part, the approach I take, and I don't know if this is a recommendation so much as an observation, is I sync my source code back and forth between my workstation and my 12-inch MacBook with Dropbox.

00:22:57   Wait, really? Not version control?

00:23:00   No, I sync it back and forth using Dropbox because I'm the only person who ever changes my source code, and so it works fine. Only one person is ever editing it at once.

00:23:08   Oh my god, please tell me you're at least also using version control, right?

00:23:11   I absolutely use version control. And that's one thing that I've found that works actually pretty well, is all of my source code is version controlled with Git.

00:23:22   But I don't do the thing where I'm pushing, I make a branch, then I commit all my local changes, push it upstream somewhere, and then pull it down on my laptop.

00:23:34   I found that workflow to be just so cumbersome, to have to go back and forth via version control, that just doing file level sync works fine.

00:23:43   And the nice thing is, because I have version control as well, version control is in this situation.

00:23:50   I would not recommend this if you have anything other than one person. If you have two people, this is a complete non-starter.

00:23:56   Don't go anywhere near something like Dropbox with your source control if you have more than one person.

00:24:00   But if you have one person, I only ever edit source at one time because I'm only one person. I only have two hands.

00:24:07   The nice thing is, if Dropbox does something weird, if some weird file conflict situation happens, I have Git in the background catching those and dealing with them for me.

00:24:17   So in Git, it'll be like, "Hey, you have these two files, one of them are different now."

00:24:23   Or in Dropbox, you end up with the conflicted copy situation. And like I said, not a recommendation, just an observation about how I do it.

00:24:31   Because otherwise, I found it really difficult to make sure that I always have every file I would ever want and need with me at the same time.

00:24:40   Otherwise, I remember doing crazy things like I would be on the road somewhere, off on vacation, and I realized I missed some file somewhere.

00:24:48   And I'd be going into Backblaze and accessing this off-site backup of my computer, trying to dig around in their web interface to try and find the file and then download it.

00:25:02   But that's no way to live.

00:25:04   Backblaze has saved my butt so many times when I forgot a file on my home computer while I've been traveling.

00:25:09   It's great, and I'm super glad and highly recommend having something like that running in the background always. All your files are always in some off-site backup that you can access anywhere.

00:25:20   Every now and then, who knows, you may be in a situation like this has happened to me where I didn't even have a computer or any of my computers with me, but I needed to do some work-related thing.

00:25:30   It's great to have some Backblaze to grab the folder down on someone else's Mac, did a little bit of work, did whatever I needed to sort out, and then I could do that work from anywhere, starting from scratch.

00:25:43   All I needed was a web browser.

00:25:45   But whatever way you approach, whatever approach you take, you need to do something to keep all of your source files on both machines.

00:25:52   If version control works for you, that's probably the better approach, but at the very least you need something to make sure that your source files are back and forth. Otherwise you're going to drive yourself absolutely crazy.

00:26:03   It probably depends a lot on how often you switch machines. For me, I almost never use my laptop. When I do, I fully switch to it for, say, a trip or a week or something like that.

00:26:18   I'm not switching every day, multiple times a day, between desktop and laptop.

00:26:22   For frequent switching, I actually think putting your source checkouts on Dropbox, like you just said, that actually sounds less crazy now than you've explained.

00:26:30   Actually, I have occasionally been in the place where I have to take my laptop and I forgot to commit some files at home or whatever else, and that's a pain.

00:26:38   But it's not a problem for me usually because I'm not switching daily. I'm switching maybe monthly. So, yeah, we'll see. Otherwise, I think I mostly agree with you.

00:26:50   The main challenges of having multiple computers have largely disappeared with the rise of so many cloud sync services.

00:26:58   We have Dropbox, we have iCloud, and there's all these other things now. So many things are now web services.

00:27:05   Even the version control thing itself, like version control for individual developers used to be a difficult thing.

00:27:10   Now you can just get a GitHub account and have a ton of private repositories for not that much money a month.

00:27:16   It's so easy now to do all this stuff. I mean, really, the main pain in the butt now of multi-computer lifestyle is not data. It's software.

00:27:28   Yeah. And I think that's probably the place to finish up. There's all these little things that you have to keep in mind.

00:27:36   The one that's been driving me crazy recently is the number of versions of Xcode that I have.

00:27:42   Xcode beta season is rough for this.

00:27:44   You have all these weird situations where if you build and run on one version of Xcode, you can have conflicting build settings or things that are out of whack.

00:27:59   Or you may think you're using the latest version, but you're actually using a version from two builds ago.

00:28:04   It's just one of those things that you just have to be aware of. I wish there was a magic solution to this.

00:28:10   The reality is you just have to be aware of it, and every time you start developing, the number of times during, especially this summer, that I go to the about menu of Xcode to double check that I'm actually running the version that I think I'm running.

00:28:23   That yes, I'm running Xcode 9.0 beta 3. That is what I should be running. It's just something that you have to deal with.

00:28:31   It's also probably worth mentioning that I find that you can do have a multi-certificate situation for code signing and things.

00:28:40   I tend to take the approach of exporting all of my keychain certificates from my main desktop anytime I get a new laptop, and I put those onto my laptop.

00:28:49   Same thing with my SSH keys. I could have multiple versions. For me, it just works simpler to have the same certificates.

00:28:56   My same main developer and distribution certificate is the same on all my machines, so there's just less fuss that I have to do.

00:29:03   Yeah, I do the same thing. I use the export developer profile feature of Xcode in the accounts pane, and the import developer. A lot of people don't know that that's there.

00:29:11   It's amazing. You can just export developer profile. You basically export all of your certificates and signing stuff, provisioning profiles, all into one password-protected archive file.

00:29:20   And then you can move that file to another computer, import it there, and have all your setup. It's amazing.

00:29:26   Yeah, and so I definitely recommend it. You just want to have an environment that is productive for you.

00:29:32   As long as you're thoughtful about it, actually think it through. The reality is, developers are probably going to overthink it rather than underthink it.

00:29:39   But as long as you've given it some thought, you can have some really sweet environments now.

00:29:44   We have really capable computers, really powerful syncing systems between them, and you can get a lot of work done without your machine getting in the way, which I've got to say is pretty awesome.

00:29:54   Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll talk to you next week.

00:29:57   Bye.