Under the Radar

83: Live at CocoaConf


00:00:00   So at least, that's David Mardar.

00:00:02   [APPLAUSE]

00:00:06   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app

00:00:12   development.

00:00:13   I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:14   And I'm David Smith.

00:00:15   Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes,

00:00:17   so let's get started.

00:00:19   So this is a first time for us.

00:00:20   We are in a room with other people who are looking at us,

00:00:25   I think, which is a little bit intimidating.

00:00:28   But I'm sure we'll make our way through and doing a live show

00:00:32   with a hard time cap just for added extra difficulty,

00:00:36   just for fun.

00:00:37   But yeah, it's an exciting week.

00:00:39   It's WWDC week.

00:00:40   And it is an interesting year.

00:00:44   This is having been at WWDC since 2009.

00:00:48   That was my first year.

00:00:50   And every year, there's sort of a different theme

00:00:52   or a different flavor to the show.

00:00:54   And I think when I was trying to listen for it,

00:00:57   I think the phrase that Apple used many times to indicate

00:01:01   what the theme was this year was technology and refinements.

00:01:05   That in general, what they were doing

00:01:08   were either introducing new technologies, all

00:01:11   of their machine learning stuff or that type of thing,

00:01:15   or it's a lot of refinements.

00:01:16   It's lots of little things.

00:01:19   And in some ways, I like that as a developer.

00:01:22   It's not one of these years where

00:01:24   there is this overwhelming sense of there

00:01:27   goes my summer, I'll never see my children again,

00:01:30   all these terrible things.

00:01:31   It's a summer where it's like, OK, I've got work to do.

00:01:34   There's stuff to be done.

00:01:35   But overall, unless you're in an area where

00:01:39   one of these brand new, totally new technology

00:01:43   is relevant for you, you're just going to be tweaking stuff,

00:01:47   making things a little bit better, which

00:01:50   is nice in some ways.

00:01:51   And maybe it's nice to have a year off from just

00:01:56   this crazy sprint or this whole new platform or anything

00:01:59   like that, because especially even some of the side platforms

00:02:02   got almost no changes at all.

00:02:05   So it's like, OK, I don't need to worry about that.

00:02:07   I can just do some basic changes to get going.

00:02:11   Yeah, I mean, every year when we have this happen to us,

00:02:16   this keynote thing, every year, it's

00:02:18   a question mark of how much work we'll have in the summertime,

00:02:21   as you said.

00:02:22   And as the App Store and as these platforms

00:02:25   have gotten more and more mature,

00:02:28   the advances have gotten more and more specialized.

00:02:31   You see things being added every year

00:02:34   that only make sense for a narrow subset of app types.

00:02:37   And if your app happens to be one of those things,

00:02:39   then you have new things you can do.

00:02:42   And as time goes on, more and more of the advances

00:02:45   are of that type, rather than things that we all

00:02:48   have to now suddenly deal with.

00:02:50   Like when the big iOS 7 redesign, that's like, wow,

00:02:52   everyone has to deal with that.

00:02:53   Or when major features to the OS were

00:02:55   still being added on a regular basis,

00:02:58   things like notifications.

00:03:00   That was things that we all really had things to do about

00:03:03   and had potential new things for our apps to do

00:03:06   and major new areas of markets that would open up.

00:03:09   And that just really hasn't happened a lot recently,

00:03:11   because these platforms are maturing.

00:03:12   That type of innovation just is slowing down by necessity,

00:03:16   because these things are getting more and more just mature

00:03:18   and better around it.

00:03:19   So as you mentioned, I think it's worth pointing out

00:03:22   basically, I think if your app runs on the watch, the TV,

00:03:26   or in messages, I don't think you have much to do.

00:03:30   I think you kind of get a vacation summer.

00:03:32   If you were waiting on a particular Siri kit

00:03:38   intent that didn't exist last year,

00:03:40   you still probably don't have much to do,

00:03:42   because there weren't that many added.

00:03:44   My summer is much more free than I thought it would be.

00:03:47   Maybe you can make a new app.

00:03:50   I hear it's really fun.

00:03:52   Let me tell you.

00:03:53   I have a lot of experience.

00:03:54   Yeah.

00:03:57   I was hoping for the audio Siri kit intent,

00:04:00   and that didn't come.

00:04:01   And maybe I'll get it next year.

00:04:03   Maybe not.

00:04:03   Who knows?

00:04:05   And I was also expecting a large redesign of iOS,

00:04:09   or at least a moderate scale redesign.

00:04:12   And I think what we got was more along the lines of the iOS 6

00:04:17   redesign.

00:04:18   Most people don't remember, but iOS 5 to 6,

00:04:20   like 6 actually did step back a lot of that screw morphism,

00:04:23   and it was like a half step of a redesign.

00:04:26   And I think we got a similar scale redesign with this.

00:04:29   So we now have those new giant header text bars

00:04:33   that I honestly am not a big fan of right now,

00:04:35   but maybe I'll get used to them.

00:04:38   And it's kind of unclear as to whether we all

00:04:41   should redesign our apps like this or not.

00:04:43   Sometimes when Apple does UI Chrome changes,

00:04:47   sometimes it only ends up being important for Apple's apps.

00:04:51   There are certain UI conventions that you see them

00:04:54   and you think, oh, that's a system app.

00:04:56   And back in the olden days, it was a design goal,

00:05:00   considered a good design, to try to make your app look

00:05:03   like the system apps.

00:05:04   But I think the window of time where that was true

00:05:06   is fairly short.

00:05:08   And quickly after that, it became more trendy

00:05:12   to have your own identity, your own visual design.

00:05:15   And designers kind of started taking over the world.

00:05:18   And really, it became better design or better respected

00:05:23   design to not use the system stock stuff

00:05:27   or to use it very loosely and to really heavily style

00:05:30   it your own way.

00:05:31   So if you design your app now to use this new big H2 style,

00:05:37   big unstyled header taking up half the top of the screen,

00:05:41   if you do that with your apps, it

00:05:43   might end up being considered good design.

00:05:45   It might look weird if you don't adopt that six months from now.

00:05:49   But it also might just be that's how the boring system

00:05:51   apps look, and it'd be weird if your app looks like that.

00:05:53   We don't really know yet, but I would

00:05:55   say the scale of the redesign that we have

00:05:57   is not really something that forces us all to immediately

00:06:02   start taking action with our own designs

00:06:03   to try to get close to it.

00:06:05   No, and I think, too, when I see a change like that,

00:06:08   I always try and think of what is Apple trying

00:06:11   to point us towards.

00:06:14   And in many ways, I think that particular design, you like it

00:06:18   or you don't like it, but it seems

00:06:20   like they are de-emphasizing information density

00:06:24   and saying that, well, essentially vertical real estate

00:06:28   on the screen is not at a premium anymore,

00:06:32   that you can just essentially throw away

00:06:34   the top 10% of the screen, which is what this new navigation

00:06:40   bar looks like, and that's fine, which maybe is indicative

00:06:43   that taller screens are coming, or just in general,

00:06:46   there's sort of this emphasis towards let's smush things down

00:06:50   and take advantage of the size of the screen in that way.

00:06:55   So maybe even if it's not necessarily adopting

00:06:57   what Apple is doing, it's just saying

00:06:59   that's the direction that they're leading towards.

00:07:01   Because I think in many ways at WWDC,

00:07:03   one of the fun games I try and play

00:07:05   is the like, what are they not saying,

00:07:08   but they're kind of saying?

00:07:10   Because usually there's these clues and these hints

00:07:13   that they're kind of poking towards that are,

00:07:17   well, in retrospect, either with new hardware

00:07:20   or even just next year at WWDC will make more sense,

00:07:23   these little things that they're pointing to.

00:07:25   So that's something that I think about when

00:07:28   I see these sort of subtle design things,

00:07:30   and there seems to be an emphasis on dynamic type

00:07:32   this year, which is, again, all about in some ways

00:07:35   being less specific about information density.

00:07:39   That it's like making your app cool when it has gigantic fonts.

00:07:44   That's A, it's a good accessibility feature,

00:07:46   but it seems like just in general they're

00:07:48   trying to move away from that kind of a very dense display.

00:07:53   Yeah, and they're doing that in these apps,

00:07:57   in the system apps and everything.

00:07:58   And we can speculate that probably

00:08:00   is because of maybe some bigger, taller screen

00:08:02   phone coming this fall, as all the rumor things have pointed

00:08:04   out.

00:08:05   But there's also a huge install base of phones

00:08:08   where that might not look good on.

00:08:10   The SE is selling really well.

00:08:12   I don't know, like my metrics on my app--

00:08:14   and granted, it's a podcast app listened to mostly by nerds,

00:08:17   so it's not going to be representative

00:08:19   of the entire market.

00:08:20   But my app is basically split like 45, 45,

00:08:24   10 between the three screen sizes of phones right now.

00:08:27   It's really like a lot of people using the plus phone.

00:08:31   A lot of people are using the seven size phone.

00:08:34   But then also 10% or so are using the SE size phone.

00:08:37   And that's not a small number.

00:08:41   I can't make the interface terrible or unusable

00:08:44   or suck for that 10%.

00:08:47   And that 10% is not going down.

00:08:50   When the SE came out, it kind of boosted and leveled

00:08:53   that number.

00:08:54   And so we can't just say, oh, our designs

00:08:58   have to look good on the phone that comes out this fall that

00:09:01   might have a weirdly tall screen.

00:09:03   It also has to look good on everything else.

00:09:05   So it's a fairly aggressive new design philosophy

00:09:08   that we might pragmatically not want to take.

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00:10:47   So as cool as all the actual technologies and APIs

00:10:51   and SDKs are, the thing that in many ways

00:10:52   I think I was most excited about is the new App Store app.

00:10:57   To me, that's a huge question mark.

00:11:00   I'm excited that it's changed.

00:11:02   I'm slightly terrified as well by the change.

00:11:06   But I'm excited that it is changing.

00:11:07   Yeah, any change to the App Store should terrify all of us.

00:11:10   Because it basically means that whatever our business is now,

00:11:14   however the App Store is serving us now,

00:11:16   it's probably going to change dramatically this fall.

00:11:18   We don't know in which direction.

00:11:20   If they change the search algorithms,

00:11:22   that can make a huge difference for a lot of us,

00:11:24   of what our sales are.

00:11:26   If they change things like what a feature is worth,

00:11:29   which they have here.

00:11:32   The new App Store has a much lower information density.

00:11:36   As you mentioned earlier with info density,

00:11:38   it's a much lower information density.

00:11:40   And they've kind of been going towards this

00:11:42   in the recent search redesigns and everything

00:11:44   in the last couple of years.

00:11:46   But now, the whole store is like that,

00:11:47   where you basically have giant screen-filling cards for apps.

00:11:52   And so there's no more big list screens

00:11:55   where you get a million of them on screen at once.

00:11:57   So basically, the number of featured spots

00:12:01   appears to have decreased dramatically.

00:12:03   But each one is now worth a lot more.

00:12:05   And I don't know whether they're going to have different levels,

00:12:08   like subdirectory levels inside of it,

00:12:10   that are more high density or whatever.

00:12:12   But the main App Store features are now very, very few,

00:12:17   but very valuable.

00:12:18   And so if you get one, that's probably awesome.

00:12:22   But I think your chances of getting one are now reduced.

00:12:24   So it's kind of a--

00:12:26   I don't know what to think yet about it.

00:12:28   They're changing more often.

00:12:30   They're going to be every day instead of every Thursday

00:12:32   that they've been updating some of the other editorial

00:12:34   sections.

00:12:35   So that's nice for a lot.

00:12:36   But how many of us are ever going

00:12:37   to get one of those feature blocks?

00:12:39   It seems like it's an interesting change.

00:12:43   I'm glad they're changing it.

00:12:44   But if I had to guess, I'm not sure it's

00:12:47   going to benefit most people.

00:12:50   When I see it, though, what I like

00:12:52   is that it changes my goal for what the App Store--

00:12:58   my App Store page, my App Store presence in a way

00:13:01   that I find slightly motivating, I guess.

00:13:04   My goal is now to--

00:13:06   I would say recently, for maybe the last couple of years,

00:13:09   I have cared less about being featured,

00:13:11   because the way the App Store is now,

00:13:14   it doesn't actually have a huge impact on downloads.

00:13:18   It's nice emotionally.

00:13:21   If I get featured, it feels really good, and that's awesome.

00:13:24   Hooray.

00:13:25   But in my experience, it's actually a fairly minor impact

00:13:29   on downloads, which is, I think, largely

00:13:32   to do just with the way that you go to the Feature tab right now

00:13:35   and you'll probably see there's at least 20,

00:13:39   30 apps on that screen at once.

00:13:42   And so if you're one of those, that's not nearly as impactful.

00:13:46   And when I see this, it's kind of nice

00:13:49   that now instead, if you are the app of the day--

00:13:54   and it's nice, too.

00:13:55   Like, well, you said it's going to be hard to get it.

00:13:58   There are still 365 of those a year.

00:14:00   And in different countries, too.

00:14:02   It's not going to be just one a day.

00:14:03   It's going to be probably one per country or territory

00:14:06   per day.

00:14:07   And if you are that app, if you win that lottery,

00:14:10   you are doing--

00:14:12   I imagine that will have a substantial impact,

00:14:14   that if the Home tab of the App Store app

00:14:17   has a giant full screen ad for your app,

00:14:21   either your app is really bad or you're

00:14:24   going to have a good day.

00:14:25   And so I'm really excited about that as a goal

00:14:29   and as a motivation.

00:14:30   And it's nice to have this now in the back of my mind

00:14:33   that my goal is to do things that will get me onto that tab.

00:14:38   And I can do things that are within my control

00:14:40   to make that happen.

00:14:42   And getting-- it's nice that I feel like it will actually

00:14:45   have an impact.

00:14:47   It is going to, I think, though, be a very much a rich get richer

00:14:49   and a poor get poorer kind of a situation.

00:14:52   I've been playing with it a little bit on the beta.

00:14:55   And if you don't--

00:14:59   like, the search area is still--

00:15:00   I mean, the search area, too, is much less dense

00:15:02   than it used to be.

00:15:03   But the actual-- the new Apps tab is very, very focused

00:15:10   on just the very, very top stuff.

00:15:12   And if you're not one of those apps--

00:15:13   if you're not the-- in some ways, they took the top charts.

00:15:16   And rather than being a chart, it basically

00:15:18   just shows the top three apps or the top four apps now.

00:15:22   That's a pretty narrow thing.

00:15:25   The top three apps is probably going

00:15:26   to be Facebook, Instagram, and Snapchat, or something

00:15:29   like that for a long time.

00:15:32   There's no way my app is ever going to break into that area.

00:15:36   But I think more generally, I love the feeling

00:15:40   that over the last year, we've had at least a half dozen

00:15:45   substantial business and App Store improvements that

00:15:50   make me feel, as someone who makes my living in this world,

00:15:53   that this is a lively platform that I can

00:15:58   be learning to get better on.

00:16:02   Because back in the early days of the App Store, in some ways,

00:16:04   it reminds me of those early days where one of the ways

00:16:08   that I remember being able to get my--

00:16:12   when I was trying to stand up my business was

00:16:14   by being a student of the App Store,

00:16:16   by trying to understand how it works,

00:16:18   how I can optimize what I'm doing to work well there.

00:16:22   And now that it's this brand new thing,

00:16:23   it's like that starts all over again.

00:16:26   All the summer, I can try and work on,

00:16:28   what do I need to make my app assets look

00:16:30   like to look really good here?

00:16:33   Now we have auto-playing videos for app previews.

00:16:36   And you can have three app previews rather than one app

00:16:38   preview.

00:16:39   There's all kinds of other information

00:16:41   that we can specify.

00:16:42   We can give our app subtitles and marketing copy.

00:16:45   We can promote in-app purchases from on our app page.

00:16:49   There is so much there that isn't the developer side, that

00:16:52   isn't that kind of thing.

00:16:54   But I think, in some ways, I'm glad that there's

00:16:57   relatively little to do on the technology side this year

00:17:00   that I'm going to expect to be spending most of my summer just

00:17:03   working on those assets, working on trying

00:17:06   to work out how to market in this new App Store,

00:17:09   because it is a very new and different experience.

00:17:13   I mean, in many ways, maybe that's

00:17:15   kind of like a metaphor for what we should be doing pretty much

00:17:19   all the time with our apps now.

00:17:20   Technology is way less important than it's ever

00:17:23   been for most of what we do.

00:17:25   And the marketing side in the App Store,

00:17:28   and getting all that metadata right and good,

00:17:32   and all these new ways--

00:17:34   they added app preview videos before.

00:17:36   Now they're more emphasized, and there's more of them.

00:17:39   And you basically have more in the App Store

00:17:42   that you need to apply reasonable production value to.

00:17:47   In the olden days, it was basically just an icon

00:17:49   and maybe some design inside your app.

00:17:51   But you could get away with not much else.

00:17:53   And now, that's long since been surpassed as the table stakes.

00:17:58   And now you need to consider things like your copy,

00:18:01   although whoever reads it.

00:18:02   But you need to at least consider your title.

00:18:05   And your screenshots have to be really good.

00:18:07   And as we discussed in the past, people keep shoving more stuff

00:18:11   into screenshots.

00:18:12   It isn't just a screenshot.

00:18:13   It's like, oh, here's a fake phone

00:18:14   spanning over the two frames, and big marketing text

00:18:17   above it, and everything.

00:18:18   And so the production value that is required to succeed

00:18:22   in the App Store is going up.

00:18:23   And in some ways, that's going to be a burden.

00:18:25   It's going to be a burden on a lot of us, especially

00:18:27   people who have smaller budgets for that sort of thing

00:18:30   and can't do it themselves with their own skills.

00:18:32   That's going to raise the cost of succeeding in the App Store.

00:18:35   But I think we were already headed in that direction.

00:18:38   And that was already kind of the reality of the market.

00:18:41   So now, we are going to be forced to do that for our apps,

00:18:44   but we already really were.

00:18:46   And if we're willing to put in that extra effort

00:18:48   to do things like get a nice app preview video

00:18:51   and put some effort into really optimizing the way

00:18:54   the new store pages look and the new things we can do on them,

00:18:57   I think we will be rewarded for that.

00:19:00   Overall, that's going to matter more

00:19:01   than if we spend an extra eight hours coding a feature

00:19:04   that not a lot of people are actually

00:19:05   going to use or care about.

00:19:07   Yeah.

00:19:07   And it changes-- it makes me really nervous

00:19:11   to have to make my App Store page super pretty.

00:19:16   But on the flip side, it's like that's an attainable goal.

00:19:19   That is something that I can definitely definitively work

00:19:22   towards and to make happen.

00:19:24   And it's not unreasonable.

00:19:27   In some ways, it's nice when we were

00:19:29   able to get away without that.

00:19:31   But that seems like that is less and less the case.

00:19:34   And we can now reset our reviews.

00:19:38   Yeah, our ratings.

00:19:39   Our ratings whenever we want.

00:19:40   So we finally got that.

00:19:41   That's awesome.

00:19:42   Like years ago, that was on my list

00:19:44   of when I had my 12 things I wanted

00:19:47   to change in the App Store.

00:19:49   That was back then.

00:19:49   And now we finally got it.

00:19:51   And these little changes like that are just super exciting.

00:19:54   As a developer, Apple is clearly trying

00:19:58   to make this more viable for us.

00:20:02   Yeah, and it's-- one thing I wonder about,

00:20:05   like you mentioned before, the value of a feature

00:20:07   seems to have been going down in recent years.

00:20:09   It seems-- I think industry-wide, we've

00:20:11   seen this kind of slowdown of people

00:20:14   willing to just browse for new apps

00:20:16   and just install them easily.

00:20:17   Like the cost per install, if you're

00:20:19   trying to get-- if you're measuring that kind of thing,

00:20:21   has been going up over the last few years.

00:20:23   And I wonder, like, I bet Apple is probably

00:20:26   doing a lot of these changes to the App Store

00:20:28   and the new daily features and cleaning it all up

00:20:29   and everything.

00:20:30   They're trying probably to do this

00:20:31   to increase the number of times that people go to the App Store

00:20:35   just casually.

00:20:36   Like what we used to do in the old days,

00:20:37   like when the App Store was new, and we'd just

00:20:39   like go there when we were bored and just find some new apps

00:20:42   and download them.

00:20:43   And I think a lot of people did that.

00:20:45   And these days, a lot of people don't.

00:20:46   So Apple's obviously trying to push

00:20:48   the market in this direction to go back to doing that.

00:20:51   But it might not succeed.

00:20:52   Like this actually might not happen.

00:20:55   So it's really kind of up in the air.

00:20:56   Putting all this effort into your App Store page

00:20:59   is going to become table stakes.

00:21:01   But we don't know actually how much it'll pay off yet.

00:21:05   Sure.

00:21:05   But I mean, that's always the case.

00:21:06   But the reality is for a year, this is the App Store

00:21:09   that we're going to have to make work for our businesses.

00:21:12   And so it's like one way or the other, this is what we got.

00:21:15   So we just sort of do our best and hang on for the ride.

00:21:19   I did, before we run out of time,

00:21:21   I did want to talk a little bit about the iPad advances.

00:21:24   And not in too many specifics, but basically the iPad--

00:21:28   like every year we try to figure out

00:21:30   like what kind of new apps are now made possible

00:21:33   by whatever they announced.

00:21:36   Not only what additional features

00:21:38   can we add to our existing apps, but what new markets

00:21:40   will now exist.

00:21:41   Because that's often a place where

00:21:43   you can reap good rewards.

00:21:44   And you made a lot of your career off of this, right?

00:21:47   That is my career.

00:21:47   Like going to where new territory has just opened up

00:21:51   and just being the first one there with a decent app.

00:21:54   And you will often reap rewards from that.

00:21:57   It's not guaranteed, but it's often the case.

00:21:59   And there's often fewer people there on day one

00:22:01   than you think there will be.

00:22:03   So what's new this year?

00:22:05   And I think that there's not a whole lot of brand new,

00:22:07   complete areas.

00:22:08   But the iPad redesign and the new productivity

00:22:12   features in the iPad I think will be one of these areas.

00:22:15   The big-- a lot of iPad Pro app makers

00:22:19   have had a hard time making the economics work out.

00:22:22   And the question is not whether you

00:22:25   can't sell software for a good price on the iPad.

00:22:27   I think the question is, are there

00:22:29   enough people doing pro work on the iPad that will be seeking

00:22:34   out an app like yours?

00:22:35   And that to me goes down to how many people are

00:22:38   using the iPad for their work?

00:22:40   And before, it was cumbersome to do a lot of these things.

00:22:44   You could do it, and we know people who do,

00:22:46   but there was a lot of friction.

00:22:48   And now they have reduced a lot of that friction

00:22:50   and really broken down a lot of the barriers

00:22:52   and made a lot of the iPad UI more Mac-like.

00:22:56   And don't say that, but that's really what they did.

00:22:59   And so now I think a lot more people will be doing work

00:23:02   on the iPad than before.

00:23:05   So I think that might create more of a market for iPad Pro

00:23:08   software than we had before.

00:23:10   And it's not to say that you can go in with an iOS level price.

00:23:15   If you're thinking of developing pro software on the Mac

00:23:19   and you sell your pro app on the Mac for $100,

00:23:22   and that succeeds for you, you can't go to the iPad

00:23:24   and sell it for $10 and expect to have the same success.

00:23:28   You're going to have to charge more,

00:23:30   and it's going to have to be worth more for people,

00:23:33   just like on the Mac.

00:23:34   They're making it more Mac-like.

00:23:35   But I do think that's a market that did not

00:23:38   exist very strongly before.

00:23:40   And now I think that's going to be a bigger market,

00:23:43   because the iPad is now such a better tool for getting work

00:23:46   done in a professional capacity, or really, honestly,

00:23:49   any capacity, like email attachments.

00:23:51   Like, it's so much easier now than it was before.

00:23:54   I think there's going to potentially be a bigger

00:23:56   market there than there was.

00:23:58   So maybe the place to be this year

00:24:01   isn't some new extension type that became available

00:24:04   on iOS or something else.

00:24:05   Maybe the place to be this year is boring productivity apps

00:24:07   on the iPad.

00:24:08   Maybe, I mean, the thing that's-- I struggle a little bit.

00:24:13   I'm excited with the iPad changes, because--

00:24:16   and A, I know I have many friends who love the iPad

00:24:20   and are just through the roof about this.

00:24:23   I was sitting next to Federico Vittucci during the keynote,

00:24:26   and there was a glow coming off of him for the entire show,

00:24:31   because he was so excited.

00:24:32   And that is really cool.

00:24:34   I mean, just as a developer, I love--

00:24:37   I've got to imagine the iPad team who

00:24:39   had made those features love hearing

00:24:40   the feedback of these people who are so genuinely excited

00:24:43   about it.

00:24:44   And it's like, I like that that's there.

00:24:47   I'm still nervous about whether or not it will be enough.

00:24:52   It's like you have such this chicken and egg problem

00:24:54   with the iPad, I feel, where if Apple can pull enough people

00:25:00   into the platform to make it-- to have

00:25:04   that richness of ecosystem, it is a really interesting

00:25:07   and compelling device.

00:25:07   And when the iPad first came out,

00:25:10   whatever that was four, five, six years ago,

00:25:13   it was a pretty good place to be an app developer.

00:25:17   I made a substantial part of my business

00:25:20   working on the iPad for years.

00:25:22   And then it just kind of fell off.

00:25:24   And in many ways, it kind of fell off with Apple's sales

00:25:27   graph.

00:25:28   The iPad sells less and less every year.

00:25:30   My hope is that what Apple is doing

00:25:32   with these kind of changes is if they can pull that back

00:25:37   and kind of have an inflection point where suddenly it gets

00:25:41   a little bit more traction.

00:25:42   It's all these things that were just a little bit too

00:25:45   difficult before now become that little bit more easy

00:25:47   and are now more possible.

00:25:49   Maybe we'll get there.

00:25:50   And if they do, then that's interesting.

00:25:52   And I could definitely see transitioning my focus a bit

00:25:55   back towards the iPad.

00:25:56   Because honestly, recently, it hasn't been there at all.

00:26:00   And I like the iPad.

00:26:02   It's an interesting platform in that respect.

00:26:04   But there's such this tricky thing

00:26:06   when the iPhone is so viable as an app platform

00:26:10   that the iPad could be viable as an app platform.

00:26:15   But if it isn't, it's like-- and if lots of developers

00:26:18   don't go there, it won't be.

00:26:21   But lots of developers going there won't make it viable.

00:26:24   And so it's very circular.

00:26:26   And I'm still of two minds as to whether--

00:26:29   I'm not sure if this year I'll be focusing much on the iPad

00:26:34   or if it's one of those wait and see.

00:26:36   Have a couple of quarters of sales

00:26:39   to see if the iPad sales are starting to come back out,

00:26:41   waiting to see if there is an uptick on things.

00:26:44   Because I don't know.

00:26:47   I want to be excited.

00:26:48   But of all the things they announce, it's like,

00:26:51   I'm excited, but I'm much more cautiously excited

00:26:54   than I am on a lot of the other platforms in the ways

00:26:57   that Apple's trying to push us this year.

00:27:00   Yeah, I think that's probably a safe bet.

00:27:01   Because with the iPad stuff, you never really know until a year

00:27:06   or two later what swing the market has taken.

00:27:09   It's a lagging indicator.

00:27:12   And a lot of these new iPad productivity gains

00:27:15   are only going to be compelling or widely used

00:27:18   on pretty high-end, pretty recent iPads, which is not

00:27:21   a large slice of the market.

00:27:23   And so we really won't know yet.

00:27:25   So I guess I agree with you.

00:27:26   It's probably a little bit risky to jump in right now.

00:27:29   But I do think there's something about the iPad

00:27:32   that people love it.

00:27:34   They tangibly love this device.

00:27:37   They want to use it more.

00:27:38   And the story I hear over and over again

00:27:40   is, I would love to get more work done,

00:27:42   or I'd love to use this thing more,

00:27:44   but I can't do what I need to do,

00:27:46   or it's too cumbersome, or whatever else.

00:27:48   So I think there's something there.

00:27:49   And I think people will try really hard

00:27:52   to make it work for them again, now that we have

00:27:54   radically new capabilities.

00:27:55   I mean, when iOS 9 launched with the multitasking

00:27:58   for the first time, that converted a ton of iPad

00:28:01   skeptics over into being iPad lovers and iPad workers.

00:28:06   And now there's another step, probably of that magnitude,

00:28:09   or even more so, that I think might do that same thing.

00:28:13   The only question is, will it stick or will it be a fad?

00:28:17   And it's hard to base major business decisions on that.

00:28:21   Yeah.

00:28:22   And I think I'm--

00:28:26   I've been doing this long enough that I increasingly

00:28:31   have a sense of caution about those kinds of things,

00:28:34   which in many ways is probably to my detriment.

00:28:37   I'm very aware of the fact that I probably

00:28:40   wouldn't be able to have a sustainable business

00:28:43   at this point if I was cautious in the past,

00:28:46   that in some ways it's going to take developers making

00:28:50   kind of reckless and sort of slightly wild decisions

00:28:56   to pursue and push the boundaries on the iPad

00:28:58   for the iPad to be a viable platform.

00:29:00   And I will say one thing that Apple tends to do well

00:29:03   is if developers do go down that road,

00:29:08   they're good at recognizing them, at promoting them,

00:29:11   and at helping them.

00:29:12   That if you are at WWDC this week and you go down to a lab

00:29:15   and you're trying to do something, or you want to reach

00:29:18   out to developer relations and you're having a problem trying

00:29:20   to push the boundaries, there's a very good chance

00:29:22   they will encourage that.

00:29:25   So I would encourage anybody who's more adventurous than I

00:29:27   am to dive into that, because I think it's not an easy win,

00:29:30   but there's a good opportunity there.

00:29:32   Are you saying you might make more apps?

00:29:35   It's possible.

00:29:36   That's impressive.

00:29:38   I think we're out of time this week, everybody.

00:29:40   So thank you very much for listening,

00:29:41   and we'll see you next week.

00:29:43   Bye.