00:00:00 ◼ ► Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development. I'm Marco Arment.
00:00:04 ◼ ► And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
00:00:09 ◼ ► So today we wanted to talk a bit about the week of WWDC. This year is a departure, in many ways,
00:00:18 ◼ ► from the last years in a variety of ways. And it seems worth the opportune time to talk about it.
00:00:25 ◼ ► It's also slightly timely, because this is the week where if you are listening to this when this
00:00:30 ◼ ► episode comes out, the week of the WWDC ticket lottery is open right now. So if you are listening
00:00:37 ◼ ► to this early, you still have a chance to decide if you want to put your name in the hat or not.
00:00:47 ◼ ► Yes. It's only 30 minutes. You should be totally just, you know, the moment it comes out,
00:00:50 ◼ ► you should get a notification the next 30 minutes of your life. That's what you should be doing.
00:00:54 ◼ ► Totally. So obviously the biggest news that isn't news for this week, but is new for this year,
00:01:00 ◼ ► is that WWDC is going to be in San Jose rather than in San Francisco. And I think the pros and cons
00:01:07 ◼ ► and reasons behind that have been discussed at great length on a variety of podcasts. And we
00:01:11 ◼ ► don't need to unpack those here, but that's where it's going to be. And I think it's a big difference
00:01:27 ◼ ► Yeah. And so it's going to be a new thing. It's exciting and interesting for me in so far as it's
00:01:33 ◼ ► kind of nice that it's new. It's also a bit, you know, like the part of me that likes routine and
00:01:39 ◼ ► predictable things is a little bit sad because I know my way around that part of San Francisco.
00:01:44 ◼ ► I know where all the hotels are. I know where all the restaurants are, whatever I want to do.
00:01:49 ◼ ► I know my way there, whereas I've never been to this part of San Jose at all. So it's going to be
00:01:55 ◼ ► a new thing, but it's exciting and different. And honestly, I'm most glad that they are announcing
00:02:02 ◼ ► the dates early enough that made travel planning and things a lot easier, especially because it
00:02:07 ◼ ► was a slightly different week than I think I'd guessed. But also, I think interesting based on
00:02:13 ◼ ► where they're doing it in San Jose is that this year it looks like they're expanding their kind
00:02:20 ◼ ► of the emphasis that Apple is putting on external events as well. And so in previous years, they've
00:02:25 ◼ ► had, last year, they had on their website a collection, you know, kind of links to different
00:02:30 ◼ ► other events that are happening. And, you know, this year, I think they've even expanded that
00:02:34 ◼ ► further. And if anything, it's made it a bigger deal because the, it looks like the way that the,
00:02:41 ◼ ► you know, sort of the convention center area of San Jose is laid out, that there's going to be a
00:02:46 ◼ ► lot of events, essentially on the same street, like within one block of each other, there'll be at
00:02:52 ◼ ► least four conferences happening simultaneously in San Jose. So, you know, like if in San Francisco,
00:02:58 ◼ ► there were these events that were happening, but you know, they were in downtown San Francisco,
00:03:03 ◼ ► but they weren't all right there. And so I get that it's kind of nice that this year when I look
00:03:07 ◼ ► at, and we'll have links to the show, but if you go to like the more page of the WWDC attendee
00:03:12 ◼ ► site on Apple's website, you know, there's essentially all of these events are just right
00:03:17 ◼ ► next to each other. And so there's going to be a lot of, there's a lot of reasons to go out to San
00:03:22 ◼ ► Francisco or San Jose. There you go. I almost said the wrong name. There's a lot of reasons to go out
00:03:26 ◼ ► to San Jose this year, whether or not you're going to WWDC itself, or whether or not you're able to
00:03:31 ◼ ► get a ticket to WWDC itself, which I kind of like. I mean, I think there have been different events
00:03:36 ◼ ► that have happened for years. I think since it started to sell out, I think AltConf was the first
00:03:42 ◼ ► sort of alternative conference that was happening at the same time that started up and then others
00:03:48 ◼ ► have sort of grown. And this year, we have the main sort of WWDC conference, then we have Layers,
00:03:54 ◼ ► which is, you've I think attended, I've never had, but it's a conference that's more around
00:03:59 ◼ ► geared towards a design and that side of things, but typically, it's still with sort of an Apple
00:04:04 ◼ ► flavor. There's AltConf, which is kind of a, it's kind of a, it describes itself as a free community
00:04:12 ◼ ► supported developer conference. And then this year new is the CocoaConf Next Door, which is
00:04:18 ◼ ► a multi-track conference with trainers, authors, and developers from the Apple community. It's the
00:04:26 ◼ ► which is kind of nice. I mean, one way or the other, and I've decided to put my name in for the
00:04:33 ◼ ► WWDC lottery, and I'll get into my reasons for that a little bit later. And you know, so I'll see what
00:04:38 ◼ ► happens if I didn't get a ticket, but for right now, my number one plan would be to go to see
00:04:44 ◼ ► WWDC. And you know, if I don't, it's nice to, but either way, I'll be out in San Jose and have a
00:04:49 ◼ ► couple of different options if I wanted to try something different. Yeah, I'm looking forward
00:04:54 ◼ ► to seeing what this is actually going to be like in practice, because as you said, like, this is
00:04:58 ◼ ► all new to, you know, San Jose as a conference's destination is new to probably most iOS developers,
00:05:05 ◼ ► because the time that WWDC was held in San Jose was before the iOS boom. So it's new to most of us.
00:05:14 ◼ ► And the time that it was held there back forever ago, Apple was such a different company, and it
00:05:20 ◼ ► was such a smaller event, really, that even people who have been there before for that, who are kind
00:05:27 ◼ ► of like, quote, the old timers in the community, it's probably going to even be new to them. So
00:05:32 ◼ ► this was really new to pretty much everybody, including Apple. This is like, it's going to be
00:05:36 ◼ ► all new experience, you know, and there might be some rough patches, you know, maybe certain
00:05:40 ◼ ► things, you know, maybe Apple didn't foresee, you know, certain problems or bottlenecks that
00:05:46 ◼ ► will happen there that will have to be improved on for future years. So it's going to be kind of
00:05:50 ◼ ► like, I think it's going to be a little bit of a rough draft, honestly, but I'm kind of looking
00:05:53 ◼ ► forward to that. That's going to be interesting. It's an opportunity for just variety, for freshness,
00:05:59 ◼ ► and to try to fix some of the shortcomings of having it in San Francisco all these years.
00:06:06 ◼ ► Obviously, there were many. Price was a big one, especially hotel pricing. That was a big one.
00:06:12 ◼ ► Just kind of getting around town in San Francisco is a very different experience than being in a,
00:06:20 ◼ ► I hate to say smaller city, because San Jose is actually pretty big, but being in like a more kind
00:06:26 ◼ ► of commerce-focused city, I guess. So that's all going to be very interesting. I like that there's
00:06:32 ◼ ► all these different events happening in one spot. One thing that we don't know yet is whether,
00:06:39 ◼ ► is basically how much there will be to do for people who don't have WBC badges. And I'm going
00:06:46 ◼ ► to find out, because I'm actually not entering the ticket lottery. This is the first year that
00:06:52 ◼ ► I'm not going to seek a ticket, since I started going in 2009. And the main reasons why I've
00:06:59 ◼ ► decided not to, and this is not to try to convince anyone else for, again, this is just the reasons
00:07:04 ◼ ► why I chose to do it this way, is that WWDC is very predictable in a lot of ways. And maybe this
00:07:13 ◼ ► will change this year, who knows, but the areas that I'm going to talk about, probably not.
00:07:16 ◼ ► It's very predictable in the sense that you generally know, okay, there's going to be the
00:07:21 ◼ ► keynote, the State of the Union on day one, maybe that night there might be the ADAs or some other
00:07:26 ◼ ► featured thing. And then the main session content the rest of the week is going to follow a certain
00:07:33 ◼ ► formula. It's going to be introduction to all the new stuff they announce, there's going to be big
00:07:38 ◼ ► sessions for that, there's going to be big sessions for introduction to best practices for UI design,
00:07:44 ◼ ► best practices for modern web technologies and modern graphics technologies and how to do
00:07:49 ◼ ► accessibility and how to do internationalization and how to use iTunes Connect and how to optimize
00:07:53 ◼ ► for X, Y, and Z. And it's formulaic in a good way and a bad way. It's formulaic in a good way that
00:08:00 ◼ ► you generally know how to, once you've been there once, you kind of know how to operate the
00:08:05 ◼ ► conference. You kind of know what you should go to, what you might be able to skip and catch later
00:08:10 ◼ ► in videos, what will not apply to you at all. And for newcomers it's also very good because there's
00:08:18 ◼ ► so much introductory content there and so many of the sessions are really just kind of high level
00:08:23 ◼ ► overviews and then you're kind of left to read the documentation or start playing with the API
00:08:26 ◼ ► to actually get the gist of it. It's really good for what Apple is probably optimizing for.
00:08:35 ◼ ► Every year they say that X percent of our visitors, or X percent of attendees this year are
00:08:40 ◼ ► attending for the very first time. And usually that percentage is around half, sometimes higher.
00:08:44 ◼ ► So it's clearly geared towards first timers. And if you go every year for like five years in a row
00:08:53 ◼ ► or more, like what we have, it starts to get a little repetitive and it starts to get a little
00:08:58 ◼ ► less necessary and you get less benefit out of it. Now every year there is always new stuff,
00:09:03 ◼ ► but there's less and less new stuff every year that if you've gone for the last five years,
00:09:11 ◼ ► like there's less and less value to going every single year for people who have been there a lot.
00:09:17 ◼ ► And I think I've reached the point now where when I go I don't take full enough advantage
00:09:25 ◼ ► of the sessions anymore. There are too many sessions that I either go to and realize that
00:09:32 ◼ ► it's kind of moving too slowly for me or I'm already kind of past that stuff or it's repetitive
00:09:36 ◼ ► from last year and so I duck out. Or there are too many that I just defer to watch on video later at
00:09:43 ◼ ► faster than 1x speed in QuickTime Player and maybe just skim the notes for before I even start
00:09:49 ◼ ► watching the video. And so for me I've decided to stop seeking tickets for the time being. Maybe
00:09:54 ◼ ► I'll start again in the future, but this year I'm skipping it because not that WDC is only for
00:10:02 ◼ ► beginners and not to say that I'm super smart and don't need anything, that's not what I'm saying at
00:10:06 ◼ ► all, but that what it usually is I've seen most of that already. And so I'm gonna, and I think
00:10:14 ◼ ► I'm at the point now where I can benefit more from conferences like Layers and AltConf where
00:10:27 ◼ ► but very little. Most of their talks, especially Layers, are more about the business side and the
00:10:34 ◼ ► design side and it's more about what you should build and maybe how it should look and work
00:10:41 ◼ ► rather than here's how to use this new API. Because I'm finding as time goes on that the new API stuff,
00:10:54 ◼ ► platform is maturing, it's getting, all the new APIs are getting more and more specialized and
00:10:59 ◼ ► the kind of general stuff that everyone uses is really getting a lot more stable and having less
00:11:04 ◼ ► change every year. But also that the bigger challenge to me in my career, in my apps in
00:11:11 ◼ ► recent years is not the technical side of it. The technical side of it is fine, I can look it up
00:11:16 ◼ ► as I do it. The bigger challenge to me is the business side and the design side and that's where
00:11:22 ◼ ► I feel I can get the most value out of a conference style setting. And the API stuff I can catch up
00:11:32 ◼ ► with reference material later or I can watch the videos really fast in QuickTime Player.
00:11:36 ◼ ► - Yeah, 'cause I think there's really, when I was thinking, every year I have to decide if I want
00:11:43 ◼ ► to put my name in the hat and this year I did. I've registered for the conference and I'm very
00:11:47 ◼ ► hopeful that I will randomly be selected for it. And mostly it seems like there's two reasons why
00:11:55 ◼ ► going to W2DC is a good idea. The first is kind of the same reason that it's fun to go to a band's
00:12:03 ◼ ► concert rather than just listen to the album, that there's an experience part of it that I remember,
00:12:09 ◼ ► I have some very strong, positive memories of the experience of going to W2DC, of waiting in line
00:12:14 ◼ ► for the keynote, of seeing Steve Jobs speak at a keynote or things like that, that are just,
00:12:19 ◼ ► they're experiential. It's not like from purely practical standpoint, it is the same information
00:12:25 ◼ ► is transferred to me, but there's an excitement and an interest in that. And I think especially
00:12:31 ◼ ► if you've never been to a W2DC, that kind of reason of just wanting to go for the experience
00:12:35 ◼ ► of it makes a lot of sense. Because I think generally the information transfer part from
00:12:41 ◼ ► the sessions, they've done a tremendously, they've accelerated dramatically the rate at which
00:12:46 ◼ ► the videos come out. Many of them are even live streamed now, so if you wanted to watch virtually,
00:12:51 ◼ ► you totally could. And so from the information perspective, it's like going just because you
00:12:58 ◼ ► want the experience of that. And that's, I think, a good and valid reason. And the other reason,
00:13:02 ◼ ► and this is the primary reason why for me, it's still valuable, because I have many of the same
00:13:06 ◼ ► kind of things for you. I've been many years now, so it's less about the experience or the
00:13:13 ◼ ► information. For me, I go for the labs. And if anything, this year is probably a slightly,
00:13:18 ◼ ► even a stronger pull for me, because by moving it to San Jose, I wouldn't be surprised at all
00:13:25 ◼ ► if the labs offerings were even more reinforced, because it's so close to Cupertino, it's so close
00:13:31 ◼ ► to their main offices, that the number of engineers that they could reasonably transfer up and down,
00:13:38 ◼ ► or even just the types of engineers or whatever could be enhanced. And for me, that's what I do
00:13:45 ◼ ► pretty much the entire week of WODC. Monday, I'll go to the keynote, and then Tuesday through Friday,
00:13:51 ◼ ► I'm at the venue all day, but I'm going to one or two sessions a day and just spending the rest of
00:13:56 ◼ ► my time in line or at a lab talking to somebody. Because for me, and the kind of apps that I build,
00:14:03 ◼ ► that is the truly unique experience that WODC offers, where it's not so much learning what the
00:14:10 ◼ ► new APIs are, and from the session of how ostensibly I'm supposed to use them, my pattern is I take an
00:14:16 ◼ ► API that looks interesting, but it's just something that either I'm going to integrate into an app, or
00:14:21 ◼ ► as I want to do, I tend to create new apps in the few months between June and September.
00:14:27 ◼ ► And I'll sit down and I'll make a quick prototype, and I'll take it to the labs, and I'll be like,
00:14:31 ◼ ► "This is how I'm using what you built. Am I using it right?" Or I'll start asking questions, and in
00:14:37 ◼ ► some ways, I kind of feel slightly good where it seems like often I'm providing a service to Apple
00:14:42 ◼ ► as well as they're providing a service to me, because it's being able to, you know, it's like,
00:14:46 ◼ ► you get a lot of the like, "Huh, you're using this in a way that it was not intended to be used."
00:14:51 ◼ ► Or, "You're using it in a way that we never thought would be appropriate." Or, "You found
00:14:56 ◼ ► some interesting bugs." Or, "That is kind of awkward when I run into things." And so for me,
00:15:00 ◼ ► that experience is irreplaceable, because there's nowhere else really that you can get that kind of
00:15:06 ◼ ► help. I mean, sort of you can do it with filing technical support requests with a developer
00:15:10 ◼ ► programmer things, but it's definitely not the same as, you know, like meeting face to face with
00:15:15 ◼ ► the person who wrote, you know, like a lot of the WatchKit stuff, or the person who wrote the audio
00:15:20 ◼ ► stuff, or someone who wrote UIKit stuff, or Core Data stuff, whatever it is, you know, actually
00:15:24 ◼ ► dealing with the person. Or even more encouraging on the lab side of things is, you know, you ask a
00:15:29 ◼ ► question, they're like, "Huh, that's interesting." And then they call someone over, who's like, you
00:15:33 ◼ ► know, it's like, "You need to talk to Bill." And you bring over Bill. It's like, "Hi, Bill. You
00:15:36 ◼ ► know, this is Dave. He's having this problem with something." It's like, then you run into the guy
00:15:40 ◼ ► who actually wrote the thing that you're, you know, you've been hitting your head against.
00:15:44 ◼ ► And I used to have this kind of self-consciousness about like, I need to have really good questions
00:15:48 ◼ ► for the labs. What I found is, it's like, the best questions are just, you know, it's almost topical.
00:15:54 ◼ ► It's just saying like, this is the thing that I'm, how I'm using it, what do you think, and from
00:15:58 ◼ ► there, you can have a really good, rich discussion. And so for me, that is tremendously valuable and
00:16:02 ◼ ► something that, you know, I still, I still did, you know, sort of desperately want for my summer
00:16:07 ◼ ► to be prepared for. And so, you know, for me, it makes sense to put it in, but I totally see
00:16:15 ◼ ► there's so many other good choices or choosing not to have a ticket even, you know, that there are so
00:16:19 ◼ ► many different choices that you could tailor to your experience. You know, like Layers is a great
00:16:23 ◼ ► example for, you know, design-focused or Alt.com for CocoaCon for great, you know, if you want to
00:16:27 ◼ ► be on the more technical side still, but go for a conference. But then, you know, rather than doing
00:16:32 ◼ ► a technical conference at a time, you know, just sort of some other week in the year, you can do
00:16:37 ◼ ► it at a time when there's going to be lots of other developers around and there's going to be
00:16:41 ◼ ► a lot of more community things that you can potentially run into. You know, you could meet
00:16:44 ◼ ► some people who you might not otherwise meet or even just, you know, it's, it creates opportunities
00:16:49 ◼ ► for things that if you went to a conference in Cleveland, as lovely as Cleveland is, it's not
00:16:54 ◼ ► the same as being, you know, at the WDC week in that place with, you know, it's the only time
00:16:59 ◼ ► where you're going to be surrounded by, you know, literally thousands and thousands of iOS developers.
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00:18:06 ◼ ► of Relay FM. So whether or not you end up deciding to put your name into the WWDC hat and whether or
00:18:13 ◼ ► not you get it, I think there's also the other side of being out there that seemed worth touching on
00:18:18 ◼ ► is some of the evening events and kind of more social aspects to going out. Because while the
00:18:24 ◼ ► conferences are very worthwhile and useful, there's going to be a variety of other things going on.
00:18:30 ◼ ► And it seemed worth pointing out at least a couple of them to get a sense of kind of what that looks
00:18:35 ◼ ► like. And the first thing that seems definitely worth pointing out is that this year they're going
00:18:39 ◼ ► to be doing a Relay meetup. So for the Relay FM network, which is the lovely home of this podcast,
00:18:46 ◼ ► I just realized that you may not realize that you actually are listening to a show that's part of
00:18:52 ◼ ► the Relay network. And if you don't listen to the end of any sponsor read when I say, "And all of
00:18:56 ◼ ► Relay FM." And all of Relay FM. Well, now you know what Relay FM is. It's a network of shows by
00:19:02 ◼ ► awesome people. And Relay is doing a meetup on Monday night at the Quilt and Textile Museum of
00:19:09 ◼ ► San Jose. Isn't that awesome? Which is awesome. And so we're both going to be there. That's
00:19:16 ◼ ► something that if you're in town, you can try and get a ticket for. I'll have a link in the
00:19:19 ◼ ► show notes to there's a kind of a signup page to get an email when tickets go on sale. It's one of
00:19:25 ◼ ► these things where there's a limited quantity of them. And so there'll be, it's a little bit
00:19:29 ◼ ► complicated to get a ticket, but if you do, Marco and I will be there. Also, especially worth noting
00:19:35 ◼ ► for the Relay meetup in particular, most events at conferences are 21 and over only because most
00:19:41 ◼ ► events are held in venues with bars. And it's easier for everyone to run everything and for
00:19:46 ◼ ► them to keep the liquor license if they just restrict to 21 and over at the door and don't
00:19:52 ◼ ► have to deal with wristbands and stuff. The Relay event is actually being held in all ages venue.
00:19:57 ◼ ► So that if you are under 21, you can go to that and you'll actually be able to get it. And that's
00:20:11 ◼ ► Yeah. And I know that Mike and Steven, the founders of Relay, that was an important thing to
00:20:19 ◼ ► them to make the event as inclusive as possible. So it was pretty cool to see that they did that.
00:20:26 ◼ ► And then I think other events that are going to be happening, there's the Beard Bash put on by
00:20:31 ◼ ► Jim Dalrymple, which is also on Monday night. I think it's a bit later usually. So it's possible
00:20:36 ◼ ► that you could go to both if you wanted or if you were unable to get a ticket to the Relay event.
00:20:40 ◼ ► And then Tuesday night, there's the talk show live. So the last couple of years, John Gruber
00:20:46 ◼ ► has definitely raised the bar each year progressively in terms of who he has on his show.
00:20:57 ◼ ► On Wednesday night, James Dempsey and the Breakpoints, which is, if you've never heard it,
00:21:11 ◼ ► Yeah. It's music by a programmer, but it's really funny and it's also pretty good music.
00:21:21 ◼ ► to support AppCamp for Girls. And so it's not just like going for the concert. It's also a benefit
00:21:25 ◼ ► concert that they put on there. And then it requires a WWDC badge, but it's also on Thursday
00:21:31 ◼ ► night is usually the big WWDC bash, which is kind of a good way to cap off the week. If you were
00:21:43 ◼ ► things on Friday, but the big capping social event is on Thursday night. And I think all of those
00:21:50 ◼ ► things are really good. They're usually good and fun. I mean, the best experiences I usually have
00:21:56 ◼ ► at WWDC socially are the more quiet sort of just hanging out with a few people over dinner or at
00:22:04 ◼ ► a bar or coffee or lunch or something like that. That tends to be where I have the experiences that
00:22:09 ◼ ► really stick with me. These kinds of experiences are great though for meeting lots of people.
00:22:14 ◼ ► It's kind of that environment where it's not rude to talk to someone for five minutes and then talk
00:22:21 ◼ ► to someone else for five minutes. You can kind of move your way around and just meet a lot of people.
00:22:25 ◼ ► And so I really enjoy going to these events. And that's where I will be at. I will be at one of
00:22:30 ◼ ► those events probably every night. It's just sort of the way that I try and do it. And especially
00:22:37 ◼ ► for someone who is, I wouldn't say antisocial, but socially reluctant, perhaps like myself,
00:22:42 ◼ ► and perhaps many people who might come to WWDC, they're a good thing that I force myself to go
00:22:47 ◼ ► to for the purpose of meeting people. And I have relationships now with people who I met because I
00:22:54 ◼ ► force myself to go out and do things like this. In fact, I believe that that is where I met you.
00:23:10 ◼ ► in front of the entrance to the W hotel. Yeah. And that's where I met you. And now we do a podcast
00:23:16 ◼ ► every week. And you just never know where these things are going to happen just by being available.
00:23:20 ◼ ► And these are just, you don't need an event like that. I imagine because all these events are so
00:23:24 ◼ ► close together, there's just going to be a lot of kind of just natural interaction. But also,
00:23:29 ◼ ► the events are a good venue for that. And so I would encourage anyone who's coming out to at
00:23:32 ◼ ► least think about it, even if it's not necessarily your thing usually, to at least try to go out to
00:23:38 ◼ ► one or two events just to be a bit more social and you just never know what's going to come out of it.
00:23:43 ◼ ► Yeah. I would definitely back all that up because a lot of my friends go to WBC. So there's lots
00:23:56 ◼ ► that I already know. But every year when I go to one of these bigger events, things like the
00:24:09 ◼ ► every time I've gone to one of those, I see people there that I don't see anywhere else the whole
00:24:15 ◼ ► week. There's always like, unusually a good number of people at these large events where I only see
00:24:22 ◼ ► them there. And so if I didn't go to those large events, I would miss probably half or more of like
00:24:28 ◼ ► the people who I see or who I know who I want to meet every year. And so I very highly recommend,
00:24:34 ◼ ► as you said, I very highly recommend going to these auxiliary events and the big official
00:24:40 ◼ ► ones like the Apple Bash. And in fact, one of the things that I regret about not getting a ticket
00:24:46 ◼ ► this year is that I'm not going to be able to go to the Bash. And if Apple has any other kind of
00:24:51 ◼ ► events around town, that they're probably going to require a badge and I'm probably not going to be
00:24:56 ◼ ► able to go. And the Bash was always, you know, it's always a little bit hard to socialize there
00:25:00 ◼ ► because it's a lot of people crammed in. And even though it's usually at a very, very large space,
00:25:06 ◼ ► it's still a ton of people. And so it's kind of hard to get around. But even despite that,
00:25:13 ◼ ► and even when it gets loud and even when I can't even hear people that well, despite all that,
00:25:17 ◼ ► I still see people there and have conversations there that I wouldn't have, that wouldn't have
00:25:23 ◼ ► happened elsewhere. And that didn't happen elsewhere the rest of the week. So it's still
00:25:27 ◼ ► worth going to those kinds of things if you can. So highly recommended. As for specific plans,
00:25:33 ◼ ► I'll be going to, I think all of these things except for the Bash. And I am going to Layers,
00:25:41 ◼ ► as I mentioned earlier. I love Layers. It's great. I didn't go last year, but I went the year before
00:25:47 ◼ ► and absolutely loved it. And people who went last year, like our friend Casey Liss, had very,
00:25:51 ◼ ► very positive reviews of it. So I'm looking forward to that. And I might even stop by AltConf
00:26:01 ◼ ► >>COREY Yeah, we're going to this year, they've approached us and asked if we'd like to record
00:26:07 ◼ ► our week's episode during the conference there. And so we're going to be doing that. So if you're
00:26:11 ◼ ► attending CocoaConf and want to listen to what recording a podcast in 30 minutes or less is like,
00:26:18 ◼ ► it's a big party. It's like if you want to enjoy that stress along with us trying to squeeze the
00:26:23 ◼ ► entire WDC announcement into 30 minutes, we'll be doing it live at that CocoaConf, which should be a
00:26:29 ◼ ► good time to, you know, it's something we've never, I've never done. I've never recorded a podcast
00:26:33 ◼ ► live that I can remember. So it'll be a little bit exciting for me. And, you know, just should
00:26:38 ◼ ► be interesting and fun and another opportunity to, you know, run into people who, you know,
00:26:43 ◼ ► who listen to listen to the show or interested in, you know, saying hi. >>JEAN-PAUL It is quite
00:26:48 ◼ ► an experience. I'll tell you that I've only done it a couple times, but it's quite an experience
00:26:52 ◼ ► and highly recommended. You're probably going to hate it, but the audience will love it.
00:27:03 ◼ ► just the closing thoughts about WDC week, I think is the general thought of, I would encourage
00:27:08 ◼ ► anybody who's on the fence about coming out to San Jose that week to really try to. It's a funny thing
00:27:17 ◼ ► to, you know, it's like, I don't know, obviously there's lots of reasons why you might, it might
00:27:20 ◼ ► not work to come out or it might not make sense to come out. But I always have learned something
00:27:26 ◼ ► when I go out. And I've always met people, many of, you know, many of my best friends now I met
00:27:32 ◼ ► by going out to WDC. And there's just something, I don't know, it's like, there's something exciting
00:27:37 ◼ ► and fun about going to a place with lots and lots of people who all care about the same things that
00:27:42 ◼ ► you care about. That you end up waiting in line to go into something and you can talk to almost
00:27:50 ◼ ► everyone there about the things that you care about. That usually if you're waiting in line at
00:27:55 ◼ ► the grocery store, if you turn around and ask somebody, "Hey, what do you think about that cool
00:28:01 ◼ ► >>COREY It's not going to go so well. But it's kind of exciting that anybody there almost,
00:28:09 ◼ ► It's a great scene. There are a lot of unknowns this year with the new location and some of these
00:28:17 ◼ ► >>COREY Yeah, and we will both be there. And, you know, as always, I always try and have the
00:28:21 ◼ ► disclaimer whenever I do these shows of saying, "If you see either of us, I am about, I'm speaking
00:28:26 ◼ ► for you, but if you see me and recognize me, come over and say hi. I would love to say hi."
00:28:33 ◼ ► It always frustrates me when I hear from people who say, "Oh, I saw you with such and such,
00:28:38 ◼ ► but I didn't want to interrupt. I didn't want to say it's hi." It's like, "Well, come over and say
00:28:42 ◼ ► hi." Maybe I can't talk for a long time if I'm on my way to something or I'm in the middle of
00:28:45 ◼ ► something, but I always love to say hi. It's really cool to hear from people who listen to
00:28:50 ◼ ► the show and actually put faces and names to just a download number. So it's always kind of fun. So
00:28:58 ◼ ► I always want to just throw that in there, that, you know, "Come over and say hi." It's always fun
00:29:03 ◼ ► to meet new folks. >>HANIF And, yep, agreed. This is the one time of year where, you know,
00:29:07 ◼ ► where people like us have a chance of, like, getting recognized randomly on the street.
00:29:11 ◼ ► And that's really cool because the rest of the time it does not happen. It basically allows us
00:29:16 ◼ ► to, like, be microcelebrities in a very small space for a very short amount of time and then
00:29:25 ◼ ► you don't have to worry too much about, like, being recognized in the grocery store all the
00:29:32 ◼ ► But, yeah, please come up and say hi if you see us that week, which we might remind you of as it