0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:03I'm Marco Arment.
0:00:05And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:09One star, useless.
0:00:11What a terrible review.
0:00:12So today we're going to talk about the review system in the App Store.
0:00:19So I think we're going to start off by talking about a little bit of the way it's structured,
0:00:24and maybe some of its origins, and some of the implications of the way our customers
0:00:28actually see that, and then towards the end I think we're going to dive into a little bit
0:00:32of the way, as a developer, we should approach using, you know, asking for reviews, and dealing
0:00:40with reviews that are given to us, and so on.
0:00:42So the review system in the App Store is very much, you can kind of tell that it is based on
0:00:49the review system for something like a movie or music or something, you know,
0:00:56the origins of the App Store is certainly all from iTunes, and so you can kind of see that.
0:01:00The trickiness of that is that it was definitely not designed for something like software.
0:01:07That changes all the time, that, or at least changes often, you know, a movie or something,
0:01:13you publish it and it's the same forever.
0:01:14Software changes on a regular basis, and so it was definitely early on especially very awkward,
0:01:20because reviews would just stay around forever, and you could have reviews,
0:01:24bad reviews, you know, for you to release a busted version,
0:01:27you get a bunch of one star reviews, you submit the fix, those one star reviews were still there.
0:01:32And so eventually Apple went through and changed it so that now your reviews that are visible
0:01:38initially to the user are always based on your most recent version, which is sometimes problematic
0:01:44when you first release a new version, because it means that if you don't have, I think it's five
0:01:49or so reviews for your application, you don't show it doesn't show any of them. I think it's
0:01:54just essentially to prevent for the situation where if your first review was a one star review,
0:01:58or your first review was a five star review, they're not going to say that that's the rating
0:02:03for your your app, just because you only have one, so you need a certain number of them.
0:02:08So it's a little awkward when you submit a new update, and someone comes to look at your app,
0:02:11and it says, Hey, there's no, you know, there's no right ranking for this app, which I think is
0:02:17an implication, at least if it's like, that's not good. It's not necessarily bad directly. But
0:02:22anyway, that's sort of the way it goes. But I think star ratings, especially are a very powerful
0:02:30indicator to our customers about the quality of our apps, because they're one of the few things
0:02:36that are shown to the user when they first, you know, when they're in their first looking at the
0:02:40list of apps. So, you know, that isn't from me, maybe it's the right way to say it, you know,
0:02:44so they, if you search for one of my apps in the App Store, it pops up, you'll see the icon I made
0:02:50the name, I gave it the first few lines of the description, it screenshots and then the stars.
0:02:54And the stars are the only part of that that aren't isn't marketing isn't just me making stuff up,
0:03:00because obviously, everyone's gonna say my app is great, my app is awesome. The stars have this
0:03:05vague sense of objectivity to them. And so I think they have probably a fairly significant impact on
0:03:12what customers think about an app and with how, you know, how likely they are to download it. And
0:03:17I think I've seen that definitely in terms of my own downloads, where I know that if my star rating
0:03:23starts to go down, or I do a doom update, and the star rating disappears for a couple of days,
0:03:28that it can have a noticeable, you know, reduction in downloads that it's, you know, it's not like
0:03:34they go to zero, but it's, you know, there's 20-30% of my downloads will start will go away
0:03:40for a period until I'm able to build that up. And so I think it's something that we have to
0:03:45deal with as developers to make sure that we're like, aware of that the importance of this and
0:03:50then also, it's like really awkward because you get into all the tricky things that you can get
0:03:54into where people start, you know, paying people to review their apps, paying people to give five
0:03:58star reviews, which, you know, eventually, if Apple catches you doing that, they'll pull you out of
0:04:04the App Store for that kind of thing. But it's this really strange tension of where is the appropriateness
0:04:10there? You know, how is asking for a review fine? Is asking for a review in a in the app okay? Is it
0:04:17fine out somewhere outside of the app, etc. But it's all a big mess. But ultimately, and probably
0:04:21the best place to start is just the importance of that star rating and trying to keep it up.
0:04:27Yeah, I mean, it much like a lot of the App Store, it's the kind of thing where like,
0:04:32the system is not perfect. We as developers have to basically grin and bear it, we have to work
0:04:38around its flaws or tolerate its flaws or, you know, somehow just accommodate them. But also,
0:04:43like, it's hard to imagine a lot of better systems. Like, I have tons of ideas and how they could
0:04:49improve user reviews on the App Store. But it's not going to be like a massive improvement. Like,
0:04:56it's if they're going to have user reviews at all, they're doing an okay job of it. Again, not
0:05:02a wonderful job, but an okay job of it, you know, and again, like, changing it would be incremental,
0:05:06not revolutionary. And I do think it is, it serves a useful purpose to have user reviews. Like,
0:05:15you know, I've often thought, like, there's a lot of contexts in which there are no user reviews,
0:05:19you know, on your own sales page. Like, that's how the web works. Like, you know, if you go to buy
0:05:25software and you go to the company's website, they're not going to have a set, well, they
0:05:29usually aren't going to have a section of random user submitted unfiltered reviews. You know,
0:05:35they're going to handpick, you know, they're going to cherry pick what good things have been said
0:05:38about them. And that's going to be all you see. And it's weird to have, like, on the page that
0:05:44everybody will go to, even if somebody goes to your site for an iOS app, fully intends to get it,
0:05:49you send them through to click through to the App Store page for them to actually download it,
0:05:53and they're seeing those star reviews. So you can't escape, your customers will always see
0:05:58those star reviews. So they are probably important from that point of view. However, I really don't
0:06:07know how important the nitty-gritty details are for customers. So for instance, I think the average
0:06:14star rating that people see is probably fairly important. You know, you said you've seen a dip
0:06:19in downloads when it's been too early for a version to show a rating. Can you tell, have you,
0:06:25have you isolated enough variables to really have any idea whether it matters, whether it's like
0:06:29two star or four star average? Um, not, not quite to that level. I don't, like, I think there's,
0:06:37I've seen measurable impacts when you have a bad version that has a really bad rating,
0:06:43where the, you know, the number, it's like, I don't know if there's a difference between being
0:06:50four, four and a half or five. Like if you're on the high end, like the difference between those,
0:06:56I haven't been quite been able to narrow it down, but I think there's definitely an impact. Like
0:06:59if you have a really bad, really low rating is really bad and probably even in some ways worse
0:07:04than having no rating at all. Because like the people, it's like the active statement of like,
0:07:10this app is bad rather than like, I don't know, what is this app? That's true. But,
0:07:14but there is definitely something funny there too. I think it's also interesting that in the
0:07:20App Store, they show the number of reviews that have been left, like in little parentheses after
0:07:25the star rating. And I feel like that number is also probably somewhat indicative as well. Because
0:07:30like if the, you know, it's like five stars for views or whatever, you know, a very small number,
0:07:35it probably carries a lot less weight than if you have, you know, 1,600 reviews and the average
0:07:42rating is five stars. Like that also has more weight to it. Probably that, but yeah, it's a
0:07:48really awkward thing to try and like actually isolate and work out the impact because it's such
0:07:53a fluid thing. And it's something that, you know, as a developer, we don't have any direct control
0:07:58over. And so it's like, you can like run an experiment of like, let me try running the App
0:08:02Store if I have a five star review. Let me see if I have a four star review. So it's always just kind
0:08:06of more anecdotal and kind of just gut feeling about how it works. Yeah, I mean, you know, as
0:08:13somebody like, I buy things on Amazon all the time, I occasionally will look for new apps on
0:08:18either iOS or even the Mac App Store. And as a buyer, like when I'm looking at reviews, I hardly
0:08:24ever read any actual posted review text. But I almost always will look at the average star rating
0:08:32and the approximate number of ratings. And that's one thing like when I'm buying something on Amazon,
0:08:36you know, if I'm buying like something where there's a lot of fairly commoditized similar
0:08:41competition, like a cable, you know, something like that, like if there's one that has 900 reviews
0:08:48and a four and a half star average, and there's one that has five reviews and a five star average,
0:08:53you know, that stands out to me. And I will pick the more popular one. I will figure there's
0:08:58probably some reason why they have so many more that that's probably a good sign. And it's just
0:09:02a larger sample set. So to achieve a decent average with that big of a sample set is a pretty good
0:09:07sign compared to something with five reviews, right? And I have to imagine that most people
0:09:11will do the same thing with App Store reviews. Because it's, you know, whatever we think of our
0:09:17apps and our position in the market, the way I think the market has shown us over and over again
0:09:23that it actually works is very much like people buying basic cables on Amazon, where it's like,
0:09:28they're looking at a list of a thousand apps that all look the same. And they're going to just pick
0:09:33the one that has like, you know, that shows up near the top, probably the one that's free,
0:09:38if there is one that's free, which is there almost always is. And they're going to pick the one that
0:09:41has a decent looking, you know, name and icon and screenshot maybe, and they're going to end with
0:09:47decent ratings. So in the aggregate, I do think these are very important to to kind of just keep
0:09:54your average up, and to try to get a good number of reviews. That being said, I think the specifics
0:10:01of like, if you have an app that has mostly good reviews, and there's one angry person who leaves
0:10:05the one star and trashes you in the review, even with stuff that isn't even true, I mean, look,
0:10:10my attitude, both in, you know, personally and in my software development style,
0:10:17my attitude inspires extreme feelings in some people. And I get a lot of those extremes, and
0:10:26some of that is great, most of it is great, you know, most of my reviews tend to be pretty
0:10:30positive. But there's always with anything I do, I could write a blog post saying the sky is blue,
0:10:36and there'll be one person raging against it on Twitter. You know, it's like, anything I do,
0:10:41because of my attitude and style, it will anger a certain number of people, right? And so
0:10:47everything I do always has a small percentage of really negative response or reviews on it.
0:10:54So you know, even the best versions of Overcast, the best version of Instapaper, like even like
0:10:59the most uncontroversial updates, there's always a one star review or two or three or four, you know,
0:11:04they're always there. And some of them get really rude, and some of them are really personal,
0:11:08but whatever, it doesn't really. So basically, I've stopped reading them, like, because it's just,
0:11:14I found it mostly unhelpful to read the reviews. I find it much more helpful to pay attention to
0:11:22what people are saying via email and Twitter. And even though I don't usually even respond to those,
0:11:27and sometimes it gets overwhelming, I can't even read them all, honestly,
0:11:30but usually I'm able to keep up with reading them. And you know, the more engaged somebody is with
0:11:38trying to contact you and trying to use your app, I think the more useful their feedback tends to be.
0:11:45And so App Store reviews are kind of the bottom of the barrel. Like, somebody can look at your app
0:11:51for three seconds and leave a review, and they don't even, like, they didn't get to your contact
0:11:55link. They didn't find your Twitter username. It's like, there's a lower barrier to entry there.
0:12:00And to some degree, that means you're going to get more feedback that way, which is often a good
0:12:04thing, but it also means that the level of engagement of these users, the level of effort
0:12:08of these users is pretty low on average. And so you're going to get more of the crap that you
0:12:15should mentally filter out coming in through that channel than through other channels. And so the
0:12:21way I look at individual reviews, the ones that are one star and angry and everything, is if I see
0:12:27one, which again, I've been seeing fewer and fewer because I stopped reading the reviews for the most
0:12:32part, but if I see one making a reasonable point, I will take mental note. Like, okay, this person
0:12:39really, really hates my decision to remove this feature six months ago or whatever. Okay, that's
0:12:47kind of like an upvote in my head of like, maybe I should reconsider that or whatever else, or maybe
0:12:52people want a way to address this problem that I removed forever ago. But for the most part,
0:12:58I don't think you have to worry that much about any individual review, both score wise or its
0:13:04content, because what matters way more to the people who are actually browsing for your app
0:13:10is the number of reviews and the average star rating. And I would be very surprised
0:13:14if a lot of people actually went through and read a meaningful number of reviews.
0:13:19Now, this obviously is a bigger problem if you don't have very many reviews. And so we'll get
0:13:25into this, but like, you know, all the the problem of like the occasional one star angry people is
0:13:31magnified the fewer reviews you have, because, you know, there's fewer reviews to kind of bury it or
0:13:35average it out or whatever else. And so I've been lucky that Overcast has almost always had a very
0:13:42large number of reviews. And I think we'll talk after the after the sponsor break about kind of
0:13:46how and why and when and when not to ask for reviews. Because I think I think that does have
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0:15:08Yeah, because I think what the thing that's so tricky with all these things with reviews is this
0:15:12finding this balance between like, it's a really it's an odd part of the development process,
0:15:20because we don't have any direct control over it. But it has a direct impact on us. And there are
0:15:27very few things I think in the development process, like one of the things that I love
0:15:30about being a developer is that, like, I'm telling my app what to do, like, it's a little bit control
0:15:35freaky. Like I enjoy that I can control all the behaviors, all the aesthetics, everything in my
0:15:41app I can control, because it exists, you know, as a result of like sitting down in Xcode and making
0:15:46it. But the reviews are completely out of my control. Like I have no direct way of doing that.
0:15:51Instead, and I think like we were just saying, it's, it's like, any individual reviews, probably
0:15:56not all that important. What's more important, though, is that we are able to encourage our
0:16:02customers to go there and a high enough volume of customers to go there, such that you have a
0:16:09representative sample. And obviously, I prefer to be representative of customers who love my app and
0:16:15want to give it five stars and talk about it lovely. But at the very least, I want that number
0:16:20to be significant so that it isn't just drowned out by the one person who's angry or even just
0:16:26giving that bad impression of like, why does this app only have seven reviews? Like, you kind of,
0:16:31at least in my mind, I sort of like, I don't know what exactly what the multiplier is. But I'm like,
0:16:36if the app, you know, it's like, there's a certain like the audience in the customer base of this app
0:16:40is probably some multiplier of that. And so if it's only like seven, maybe the app is kind of,
0:16:46is only used by a handful of people and isn't that good. And so there's this strange tension, though.
0:16:50And there was this, it's probably three or four years now, but there was a big hoo-ha a couple
0:16:57years ago where around the like little pop up dialogues that a lot of apps use where
0:17:03you're using the app, using the app, then all of a sudden it pops up and says, "Hey,
0:17:08you know, review my app." And there was an app, there was a library called AppRater that was used
0:17:15in just hundreds and hundreds of apps and got, you know, had this very aggressive version of that.
0:17:22And I think it's something that I try and always avoid in my apps. Like, I've never really
0:17:27felt great about doing this because the reality is like, the reviews are primarily beneficial to me.
0:17:34And they're beneficial to future potential customers. The actual current customer who's
0:17:41using it, the review doesn't really benefit them in any way directly other than like,
0:17:46the vague sense that it makes my, it helps me, which helps them because it helps me to be wanting
0:17:52to make the app better for them. But it's mostly just they're doing me a favor. And so I need to
0:17:59look at it from that perspective. And I think in a lot of my apps, I've avoided putting in things to
0:18:04kind of ask for them for that because it is asking them a favor. It's like, you don't want to, you
0:18:10want to be really thoughtful of anytime you ask your audience for something. But then I also look
0:18:15in the App Store. And like, so the reason this is top of mind for me is I just went through and added
0:18:20a little section in the settings area of Podometer++ where it says, you know, would you
0:18:25like to please leave a review? And leaving a review really helps. Thank you, essentially,
0:18:29like I have a little button to go to the App Store to leave a review. And I hadn't had one in there
0:18:35for a long time. The app usually was reviewed fairly well, but I was starting to look at,
0:18:39look at it from the perspective of a new customer. And I went into the App Store and I started,
0:18:42you know, searching for the terms that you would search for if you were going to try and find that
0:18:47app. And what I was noticing is that I had massively disproportionately lower number of
0:18:53reviews than my customers. And based on like where we rank together, our downloads are fairly similar,
0:18:59which makes me think that a lot of it is coming just from the fact that I'm pretty sure a lot of
0:19:03those competing apps have the like, in your face pop up, "Hey, go download the app," and enough
0:19:09people go do that, that their numbers look good. But from a fresh customer's perspective, that means
0:19:14that my app looks like nobody uses it or the, you know, very few or disproportionately fewer that,
0:19:19you know, our star, the actual average star rating is very similar, but I have a 10th of the number
0:19:26of users or reviews left. And so it's like, now I've added this. I don't feel great about it,
0:19:31but I think putting it in, you know, it's in the bottom of the settings area. It's the kind of
0:19:35thing that you'd probably only find if you are, you know, you've used the app a little bit. And
0:19:43it's also, you know, it's never in, it's never going to be in the course of the core functionality
0:19:48of the app. So in this case, like showing you your steps, it's not like you open it up to see
0:19:51your steps and your steps are hidden away behind something asking you to go and do it. But I think
0:19:56the reality is not having one of those was kind of a disadvantage, it was putting my, putting myself
0:20:04at a disadvantage that it probably didn't need to be. Yeah. I mean, I kind of came around to that as
0:20:10well. And I came up with a similar solution for Overcast and Overcast 1.0 was released in, what
0:20:17was 2014? It was kind of right in the middle of a lot of this debate about the irate dialogue box.
0:20:24And I mean, these rate my app boxes are now so ubiquitous, like, you know, big apps like
0:20:30Instagram does it, it bothered me all the time. My bank, Chase, the Chase bank app does it. I'm
0:20:35like, really? Like, I'm trying to deposit a check. And like, this is like business stuff and you're
0:20:39interrupting my business stuff with my business bank for your stupid rate my app dialogue for a
0:20:44bank app like that. But yes, they're so ubiquitous. And I think, you know, what you said is perfect
0:20:51about like, you know, you're asking, the app is interrupting good usage of your app to do
0:20:57themselves an advertising favor. And that's, that's kind of rubbed me the wrong way as a customer and
0:21:02a user of these apps. And so, in my apps, I've always kind of been, you know, not only refusing
0:21:10to do that kind of interruption, but for a while I like with Instapaper and the magazine, I never
0:21:15had a link even in settings or anything to rate because I just thought like, kind of like the pure
0:21:20angle kind of like back before I would do colon keywords after a title of an app. You know, I used
0:21:25to think, well, this is, I want to do things like the pure proper way and this is just how things
0:21:29should work. And sometimes how things should work isn't how things do work. And so, you have to find
0:21:35some kind of compromise. And so, you know, with all these little, you know, App Store realities
0:21:40shortcomings, you know, like the keyword title thing, I found a compromise of with Overcast.
0:21:44I actually couldn't name it Overcast. There was another app in the store with that exact name. It
0:21:48was a cloud file related app. So, it wasn't even like the same kind of thing. But I had to call it
0:21:54Overcast something. So, I called it Overcast colon podcast player, like the most basic, honest,
0:21:59short keyword thing I could really come up with. And so, with the user ratings thing, I had a
0:22:07similar kind of compromise where with Overcast 1.0, it was clear that this kind of thing was
0:22:14important. So, I wanted to address it somehow. And so, I just put in the settings area,
0:22:19in the settings screen. It's still there now. It's been unchanged since version 1.0. I have on the
0:22:26server side, when Overcast syncs, the part of the sync response is the cached ratings count from
0:22:36iTunes, because you can get it through the iTunes API, the iTunes search API. So, you can get your
0:22:42own ratings count from your server or directly from your app that way. So, the app keeps a record
0:22:47of the ratings count for the current version. And so, in the settings screen, again, it's been
0:22:52there since 1.0. I have a simple item right next to the feedback item that says, "Please rate
0:22:57Overcast." And below it, it says, "2014 people have rated this version." And if that number is
0:23:04less than, I think, 50, it says, "Only X people have rated this version." And right below that,
0:23:11it says, "Overcast will never interrupt you for ratings." And I think enough people... This has
0:23:17worked remarkably. So, my thinking here is, it's a simple, polite, relatively compact thing that
0:23:25encourages people who like the app to go support it in this way, but is not pushy about it,
0:23:31and clarifies right there that they will never be interrupted. So, this is telling them that... You
0:23:36know, I thought about this very carefully. This is telling them that I respect them. It's telling
0:23:41them right there I will never interrupt them for ratings. So, it's telling them I respect them. I
0:23:45won't do this thing that everyone does that you hate. And also, please rate it. And if the number
0:23:52seems low, especially when it's low enough to be prefixed with only, that's kind of an additional
0:23:56push like, "Here's how much I can actually use your support right now." And I've never had to
0:24:01call attention to it on Twitter or anything else. I've never called attention to it in the app. It's
0:24:07just there in settings. And it has always gotten enough reviews with remarkable speed. And part of
0:24:13that's... I've been fortunate with Overcast, the user base is pretty sizable now. But even back in
0:24:17the early days, it was always that way. That kind of approach, when you just respect people and you
0:24:23let people who like the app support it in this way, in a reasonable way, and without getting in
0:24:29their face and annoying them, that's great. Now, that being said, that's not going to apply to
0:24:33every app. And that's unfortunate. One of the defenses back in the day when these boxes were
0:24:39being debated was, "Well, they work. And we need them." And so, I think what you have to just keep
0:24:46in mind is that that's not the only approach that can work. And while you do probably need some kind
0:24:52of easy way for people to rate your app, doing it in a more respectful way, like what we are doing
0:24:58in our apps, not to toot our own horns too much, but doing this in a way that doesn't interrupt your
0:25:03user and annoy them is, I think, a far superior way to do it. Because it works well enough,
0:25:09so you don't need to be more pushy about it. Obviously, these kind of ways do work well enough.
0:25:14And it doesn't compromise the user experience. And it doesn't annoy your legitimate good customers.
0:25:19So to me, it's a win-win. Yeah, and I think too, there's...
0:25:24these kinds of things, I always do also take the other... I always try and take the other perspective
0:25:28too of the... I find a ratings dialogue very offensive, or at least very annoying. But I
0:25:36sometimes do wonder if my... how many of my customers actually have that same experience
0:25:42and same perspective. And it reminds me in many ways of the same way that, like, I don't like
0:25:46using apps that have banner ads in them, but I make apps that have banner ads in them that
0:25:53people use on a regular basis and doesn't seem to be a problem for people. Like,
0:25:57people's thresholds for what they're annoyed by or what they consider,
0:26:00you know, undesirable, are certainly different, I think, than what I have, which is fine. But it's
0:26:10also something that I always try and keep in the back of my mind as I'm working on through these
0:26:13kinds of things, is that while I may think that these things are really annoying, maybe some
0:26:19people don't think they're annoying. Maybe some people think that they're actually useful. They're
0:26:22like, "Oh, yeah, I'd love to support this app. I didn't know I could do that." Or, "This is
0:26:27something that I enjoy doing." And they like being prompted to do it and the feeling of empowerment
0:26:31of that or whatever. But what I think when I was trying to wrestle with this a little bit is I
0:26:36think the approach that it probably makes sense for most developers is to keep an open mind in
0:26:42terms of, like what I was just saying with myself, of like, while I may find these annoying, my
0:26:46customers may not, but not to take that to mean as like a blank check to like, and just like, do
0:26:52whatever I want, because someone might like it. But to view it from the perspective of like, this
0:26:57is important. This is something that I think I've been negligent in for a lot of my apps of, you
0:27:03know, making sure that I'm giving them every opportunity to succeed. And having a good, rich
0:27:09set of reviews in the App Store is probably an important part of that. But the way to approach it
0:27:14is to not just like jump all the way to 11 and be like, "Yeah, like just throw the dialog boxes up
0:27:22every time they launch the app." Like, no, that's probably not right. But instead, when this is the
0:27:27approach that I'm kind of planning to take with my apps going forward is it's like, I'm gonna,
0:27:31I'm gonna do this incrementally. Like I used to have no dialog boxes at all. I would just have the,
0:27:36like a sentence or two in my release notes was the place that I typically did it where like,
0:27:41in my change log at the bottom, I'd be like, "Hey, if you have a minute, write a review,
0:27:44that'd be great." Not only does nobody read those, but people who do see them, they're never going to
0:27:48the bottom. Yeah. So like, that was, you know, by far the least, the least obtrusive version
0:27:54that hasn't been working perfectly. So amazing, I'm going to put it in the settings area, right?
0:28:00I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to put it there, and I'm going to engage the response.
0:28:03Then I'll see how that goes. And I'm going to if that's not enough, if that's still not quite
0:28:09getting the outcome that I'd like, it's like, maybe I'll put it in a different part of the
0:28:12settings area right now. It's in the bottom, maybe I'll move it up to the top. And if that
0:28:15doesn't work, maybe I'll periodically show it on the main screen, but not in a modal way. Like,
0:28:20this is the mindset I'm trying to take though, of like, keeping my options open,
0:28:24being respectful always, and not wanting to do things that are, you know, like, super user
0:28:30hostile, but like keeping an open mind and doing this incrementally and seeing like, where is that
0:28:34point? Because my suspicion is, and I think your experience certainly is a good example of this,
0:28:38is like, you can find a place where you're kind of hitting that balance between getting the outcome
0:28:44that you need, because you don't, there's not that probably much of a difference between having,
0:28:48you know, 1000 and 2000 user reviews in the App Store, for example, like, my guess is, once you
0:28:53hit four to four digits, like people are thinking you get a sense of like, wow, that's a lot of
0:28:57reviews. And so you just got to get whatever have a mechanism such that you can hit that number
0:29:02consistently. And once you can do that, I think you're probably going to be fine. And so I'm just
0:29:06going to start as basic as I can. And I'm just going to keep dialing it up slowly until I hit
0:29:10that point and see, you know, see where that actually is. I give this approach four stars.
0:29:15That seems reasonable. I'll withhold the fifth until you do my favorite pet feature.
0:29:19All right, we're out of time this week. Thank you very much, everybody, for listening.
0:29:23And we will talk to you next week. Bye.