0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:03I'm Marco Arment.
0:00:05And I'm David Smith.
0:00:06Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:09Shh, Marco, can I tell you a secret?
0:00:14Are you allowed to?
0:00:15Do you sign an NDA?
0:00:17I'm working on a new app.
0:00:18You?
0:00:19Me!
0:00:20I'm shocked.
0:00:21So today we're going to be talking about secrecy around new apps, which is kind of
0:00:27a silly topic in some ways.
0:00:31Even your immediate reaction when I ask if I could tell you a secret.
0:00:35I feel like it's a topic that a lot of us take -- can sometimes get a bit too in our
0:00:40own heads about and kind of overblow the importance of what we're working on and the importance
0:00:44of secrecy, but it's definitely something that we think about.
0:00:48I'm probably -- I'm hoping, fingers crossed, going to be launching a new app in about two
0:00:53weeks.
0:00:55And as far as I know, the number of people who aren't like myself and my wife who know
0:01:01what I'm working on is maybe a handful of people at this point, and most of those I've
0:01:04only told fairly recently.
0:01:08So it is something that I am generally fairly secretive of.
0:01:11And in some ways I think that's good, and in some ways that's bad, and I think it just
0:01:14seemed like a good topic for us to kind of unpack, because it's easy to feel like, A,
0:01:20you don't want to share what you're working on because there's the trade secrets kind
0:01:25of thing.
0:01:26You don't want to let other people know if you have this great idea, if you tell the
0:01:31world your idea, there's always that fear that someone else will come along and copy
0:01:35it before you do.
0:01:37Afterwards, people will inevitably copy you if it's a good idea, but the fear of somebody
0:01:43copying you ahead of time.
0:01:44I remember there was -- I think it was clear the to-do list manager who did a preview video
0:01:49of their app as part of their publicity push, and they published that video.
0:01:56And before the app was released, which I think the app was scheduled to be released a week
0:02:01later, someone had already cloned the app from the video and submitted it to the app
0:02:06store under a similar name, which was remarkable.
0:02:10I've forgotten about that.
0:02:11But it's something that you want to be thoughtful of, right?
0:02:14Like a story like that is a cautionary tale of maybe being secretive is a good thing.
0:02:20But on the other side, you also are trying to build buzz and get attention and are trying
0:02:26to not -- you don't want to just show up and be like, "Hey, here's this awesome
0:02:33thing," but there's no one there listening.
0:02:34So you have to find this weird balance between pre-announcing and post-announcing and how
0:02:39much to do.
0:02:40As I've been thinking about this this week, one thing that came to mind, too, is I thought
0:02:44it would be interesting if you could unpack your experience with Overcast, because you
0:02:48pre-announced what you were working on quite a while before it actually went out into the
0:02:52world, right?
0:02:53Oh, yeah.
0:02:54I mean, it was -- I pre-announced it during a conference talk that I gave at XOXO about
0:03:00eight or nine months before it was actually released.
0:03:04I didn't intend for it to be that long.
0:03:06It took a lot longer than I thought to go from beta to 1.0.
0:03:10But -- which is one of the reasons why you generally shouldn't pre-announce any kind
0:03:13of dates or anything, which I hadn't done, but I at least pre-announced the product and
0:03:18that it was a podcast app.
0:03:19But I didn't pre-announce any particular features, and I didn't show any screenshots.
0:03:25All I said was that it was a podcast app and it was called Overcast, and that was it.
0:03:31And so I think it's generally -- the way I tend to do things is keeping things pretty
0:03:40close to the vest about the specifics, things that it would be bad if someone copied.
0:03:45So things like screenshots of how things look, things like specific features that are maybe
0:03:51brand new that no one's done before or that are non-mainstream features so that it would
0:03:57be interesting to know if someone was doing those and somebody might try to beat me to
0:04:01it after they hear that I'm doing it, stuff like that.
0:04:03And the reality is the market I'm in now with the podcast space, it's a pretty chill market
0:04:10of my various competitors, at least the big ones.
0:04:14There's tons of small ones, though, that just rip off anything they see in any other app
0:04:17and everything.
0:04:18It's just like every app market has a lot of competition now, as we've said before.
0:04:23And there is definitely a chance that if you preannounce something in a way that gets anybody
0:04:27to notice that you will have what happened to Clear with that preview video.
0:04:32You will have other people who very quickly whip together exactly what you just preannounced
0:04:36and ship it before you do.
0:04:38And you see the same thing with physical products on Kickstarter.
0:04:40It happens all the time.
0:04:42You'll see some amazing, cool, clever new thing on Kickstarter that won't actually ship
0:04:47for six to nine months, and then three months later you can go on Amazon and buy basically
0:04:52that thing made by some no-name company for less money.
0:04:56It's like that happens all the time.
0:04:59And so generally I think it's wise not to preannounce specifics and not to show a lot
0:05:06of screenshots and videos and stuff like that because of that problem of people copying
0:05:10and beating you to the punch.
0:05:13That being said, to a large degree that might not matter.
0:05:17The damage that is done, if that happens to you, sometimes it can be significant for certain
0:05:22products but usually not.
0:05:24Usually like, there are a number of other apps in the store that, during my app development
0:05:32career there have been a number of times where somebody has released an app that looks and
0:05:36works extremely similar to mine.
0:05:39Basically these were clones of Instapaper or Overcast or the magazine.
0:05:44This has happened for everything I've made.
0:05:46Not nursing clock, I haven't really looked, but everything else I've made this has happened
0:05:51for.
0:05:52And it certainly happened with Peace, oh my god, because that was the number one app for
0:05:55a day so that got a million clones.
0:05:59The fact is most people never hear about people who clone you.
0:06:04The people who clone you, they're not going to get any blog posts written about them by
0:06:06Mac stories and everything else.
0:06:10The press, the features of the app store, these are generally not going to go for the
0:06:16clones and not going to talk about them.
0:06:18So you don't really have to worry too much most of the time.
0:06:21It is a problem in games a lot more often and it is a problem with certain simple mechanic
0:06:27games.
0:06:28So one of the biggest examples of this is Threes and then 2048.
0:06:33Where Threes is this beautifully crafted indie game, it comes out, it's a huge hit, it's
0:06:38something like three bucks and then within a week or two, it was a really quick time,
0:06:44this other game called 2048 comes out that is almost completely a clone of Threes.
0:06:49Simpler not as good but basically the same game and it was free and it just took off
0:06:56and the game that spread around the world that everyone knew and played was 2048, not
0:07:01Threes.
0:07:03So that does occasionally go really badly for you when this happens but usually that
0:07:06isn't what happens.
0:07:07Usually there's clones and they just kind of get ignored and forgotten about and maybe
0:07:11a few people get scammed and buy them but for the most part it isn't a big problem.
0:07:16So that being said though, I do think it's important to play things relatively close
0:07:20to the vest because you don't really gain a lot by spreading things around too early.
0:07:26The idea here is you're going to build hype, right?
0:07:31The theory is I'm going to release this preview video or screenshot or whatever of my app
0:07:36and tease people and I'm going to tease the interest up and it'll be this great teaser
0:07:41and then people will sign up for my mailing list I guess.
0:07:46The question is suppose you get people's attention with some kind of teaser or preview, then
0:07:51what?
0:07:52What can they do and what will they do at that point for them to actually stay, for
0:07:57you to keep their attention for when the product actually launches?
0:08:01In many cases the only thing you really can do is follow us on social media or sign up
0:08:07for our mailing list and as soon as you put up a wall like that a whole bunch of people
0:08:11who see the preview are going to drop off.
0:08:13They're not going to complete that call to action that you want them to complete.
0:08:17They're not going to add their name to the mailing list.
0:08:18They're not going to follow you on social media.
0:08:20They would have maybe had more interest if they could have gone to the app store right
0:08:23then and downloaded your app right then.
0:08:25If there was a link saying not just that this is coming out in two weeks but this is out
0:08:29now go get it.
0:08:31But instead you had all this attention that came to you and it basically fell on the floor
0:08:35because there was nothing for them to get yet.
0:08:37It wasn't ready yet.
0:08:38And that's a huge risk whenever you're doing any kind of pre-announcement.
0:08:41So it's best to focus your pre-launch efforts on press outreach where you can actually send
0:08:50bloggers and writers and influential people and YouTubers, you can send them beta builds.
0:08:55When the app is ready, it's almost ready to be launched, a week or two earlier you send
0:09:00out these beta builds and we've talked about reaching out to the press in tasteful ways
0:09:03before.
0:09:04You send out beta builds like that and get them interested beforehand but then when it's
0:09:09broadcast to the world that this app or thing exists, make it ready to go right then.
0:09:16So that way when the whole world has a chance to be interested in what you are selling,
0:09:21sell it to them.
0:09:22Be ready on that day to sell it to them.
0:09:26Quote it with a link saying, "Now that you want this thing, go get it in the app store
0:09:30right now with this link."
0:09:32And to me, doing any kind of massive publicity before you're ready to actually give people
0:09:39who are interested that link to go buy the thing, I think is wasted effort or you're
0:09:45wasting the attention that you get as a result of it.
0:09:48>> Yeah, and I think too it's an interesting distinction between secrecy in the sense that
0:09:57if someone else were to find out what you were working on in detail, it would be a problem,
0:10:03versus the kind of secrecy that's just not talking about things and not having this sense
0:10:11of developing things in the open.
0:10:13Because I think like you say, I think of even for myself, I have a very short attention
0:10:20span for new and interesting things.
0:10:22And the number of times I'll see something and click on it is a small percentage of the
0:10:27number of times I see something.
0:10:29And even smaller from that is the number of things that I'll actually get from the app
0:10:33store.
0:10:34And if you short circuit that right up front and are showing people things, I mean, you
0:10:39obviously can get kind of cute with this, where it isn't so much about trying to drive
0:10:44attention to something, you're just kind of talking about this.
0:10:47And I did this last week, I was like, I love pushing the big add new app button in iTunes
0:10:52Connect.
0:10:53You can kind of let people know, like whatever following or audience you have, that hey,
0:11:00there's something coming.
0:11:01And I think in some ways that's more effective almost with no specifics at all.
0:11:07It's just this vague sense of like, huh, there's something coming.
0:11:10And so that you're just hoping that when you do then subsequently release something,
0:11:16or when you actually start publicizing it, they're like, oh, this is that thing I was
0:11:19waiting for.
0:11:20And you're increasing the chance that they'll actually do that first level of looking at
0:11:24it.
0:11:26But beyond that, I'm not sure if you actually gain much.
0:11:29But on the flip side, like we want to be as communicative and open with press people,
0:11:37any contacts or people we have on that side of things.
0:11:39Because there's not really anybody, I've heard from people who are reaching out to the press
0:11:45and it's like, hey, I have this app that I'd like to show you, here's an NDA, for example.
0:11:50That doesn't make it, like that level of secrecy for you're trying to get somebody to pay attention
0:11:54to you and then you're putting a barrier up, that doesn't make any sense.
0:11:57Yeah, quick tip.
0:11:59If anybody ever wants you to sign an NDA to hear their idea, the answer is no.
0:12:05Just don't, it's not worth it.
0:12:07Because it's just not, it just doesn't, it's just, and the weird thing, especially in that
0:12:12situation is that it's not respectful of that person's time.
0:12:17Like maybe it sort of can work.
0:12:19Like, I mean, obviously, I imagine, you know, when Apple press get pre-release hardware
0:12:23from Apple that has an embargo on it, like, fair enough, I imagine they are signing a
0:12:27non-disclosure agreement.
0:12:28Sure, yeah.
0:12:29They're not going to talk about it ahead of time.
0:12:32Our apps are not that level of product, are not that level of sophistication where something
0:12:39like that is likely appropriate.
0:12:40Like I want anybody and everybody to be aware.
0:12:45And if somebody broke an embargo, and I really have embargoes with my apps, typically reviewers
0:12:50only release their reviews of your apps when they're ready to be released.
0:12:54But like if somebody released something ahead of time, it's like, okay, like, that's not
0:12:59a great, that's not ideal, but mostly just because if anybody reads that article and
0:13:03clicks the button at the bottom to go and download it, it won't work.
0:13:07Like rather than that, like, it's not a big problem for me in that way.
0:13:11And so it is something that I think is good to separate between.
0:13:14There's like that's like, the conscious secrecy of like, like, if something, if this were
0:13:21to get out, it would be bad versus I'm not going to do any, put any effort into some
0:13:26of the most like the passive secrecy, like I'm just going to not promote or talk about
0:13:30what I'm releasing and sort of see what happens there.
0:13:33- You know, and you're going to hear conflicting advice from this.
0:13:37If you ask around, like you're going to hear everybody saying different things about this.
0:13:41Your experience may vary here.
0:13:42And there's certain contexts in which, you know, going through like the NDA hoops for
0:13:46somebody might be worth, like if you're a consultant and you have a, you know, a big
0:13:49client, obviously that's a different story.
0:13:52But yeah, for the most part, like, you know, jumping through hoops to hear people's secrets
0:13:55ahead of time is not worth it.
0:13:57And jumping through and trying to hype up your own secrets ahead of time are also generally
0:14:03not worth it.
0:14:04It's, you know, pretty much anybody can figure out at this point, like if somebody wants
0:14:08to learn all of my secrets, all they have to do is like start basically some common
0:14:13sense like thought like, okay, what am I working on right now?
0:14:17Do you have a guess?
0:14:19- Probably Overcast.
0:14:20- Yeah, surprise, surprise, I'm working on Overcast.
0:14:22And it's been a while since I've had an update to the 2.0 series.
0:14:26So what do you think I'm working on?
0:14:27- Next big update?
0:14:29- Yeah, I'm working on Overcast 3.0.
0:14:32- Shocking.
0:14:33- You know what Overcast 3.0's gonna have in it?
0:14:35Some new features, some updates to old features.
0:14:37Of course, 'cause it's a new version of an app.
0:14:40It's like, and it's a podcast app.
0:14:42It's not gonna like, you know, all of a sudden launch rockets.
0:14:46Like it's like there's a finite number of things that you can expect an app like this
0:14:50to do.
0:14:51It's like, again, like most of our updates aren't that interesting.
0:14:55And the idea of like hyping up anything ahead of time is like, well, if people wanna know
0:15:01the basics, they can already figure that out with just some basic critical thinking.
0:15:05And anything else, they don't really need to know ahead of time until there's a link
0:15:09that they can just go to the store and buy.
0:15:11If I tell you something right now that doesn't really know that blows your mind and you really
0:15:14want it, it is way better for me to tell you that when you can actually get 3.0 than for
0:15:20me to tell you now and to hope that you still care in however many months it is from now
0:15:23when I release this thing.
0:15:24- Yeah.
0:15:25It does make me think, I hear, like it makes me think about it if I'm being too cavalier
0:15:32with my marketing.
0:15:33When I hear, like when I'm hearing our conversation going along and I'm thinking to myself, like
0:15:37I think of the people who do the hype, sort of like the splash page with a mailing list
0:15:44thing and I'm trying to collect a bunch of people's email addresses so that they can
0:15:49send them an email on the day of launch ahead of time and that kind of like more formalized
0:15:56marketing plan, which is just something that maybe like if I'm honest, it's like I don't
0:16:02feel very good at or comfortable with, like that level of actual like big M marketing
0:16:09is kind of intimidating to me and so I don't do it.
0:16:12My guess is people do it because it has some impact and certainly from what I've heard,
0:16:16that kind of email outreach can be very effective, certainly more effective than something like
0:16:21social media outreach or blogging outreach just because email is a bit more directive
0:16:27and people are almost certainly going to see it, whether or not they act on it, but like
0:16:32people's inboxes where they check, they sort out their email is a more likely place for
0:16:37someone to hang out.
0:16:40But that's a tricky thing for me to get into 'cause it's like I don't necessarily want
0:16:44to go down a road that I'm not going to be able to do a good job on.
0:16:50Like doing that kind of more, I don't even know, like full service marketing plan for
0:16:54an application, it's like I imagine it would increase my downloads and potentially theoretically
0:17:00my revenue down the road, but it's also kind of like an awkward thing if I don't feel like
0:17:04I'm going to be able to do well.
0:17:05It's sort of like Facebook.
0:17:06Like I imagine if I had a Facebook presence for my applications and I was doing things
0:17:14there, there would be a benefit, honestly even Twitter.
0:17:16I don't really have a professional side of, like a social media outreach for my apps,
0:17:23they're just sort of me.
0:17:25But I think about something like Facebook especially where I have no presence personally
0:17:29really and no presence professionally.
0:17:32Like if I just went and created a Facebook page for Podometer++ or for my next app and
0:17:38started trying to hype and draw people towards it, it would feel so awkward because I don't
0:17:44know what I'm doing.
0:17:45And maybe that's a bad thing, like maybe I should be better at that.
0:17:49But I guess in my mind, it's like that's the kind of thing you can do if you're a bigger
0:17:55team or an organization where you actually have a marketing team and division whose focus
0:18:03and job is to do a good job of that and to understand how that works and to understand
0:18:09the benefits and if they spend a week working on this hype campaign where they're gonna
0:18:17trickle things out and try and build buzz or whatever, if it works great, if it doesn't,
0:18:22it's okay.
0:18:23That was their job to do.
0:18:24Whereas for me, that would be a massive distraction from the actual work of development.
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0:19:59So for the last part of the show, it seemed like a reasonable thing too for me to make
0:20:03this a bit more specific and talk about the approach I'm taking for the app I'm launching
0:20:10hopefully on.
0:20:11I think my current release goal is like December 21st.
0:20:13You're launching a new app?
0:20:14I'm launching a new app.
0:20:16It's a health and fitness app.
0:20:17Big show.
0:20:18Oh my God.
0:20:20Perhaps it's not unlike all the other apps that I've launched in the last two years.
0:20:23Will its name end in plus plus?
0:20:25It will.
0:20:26Oh my God, this is amazing.
0:20:28This is top secret info right here.
0:20:29Breaking underscore rumors right now.
0:20:31This is amazing.
0:20:34See, it's like people think secrets are like this like salacious thing, but like they're
0:20:37not that surprising most of the time.
0:20:39Yeah, if it's an actual secret that would be surprising, then you know, it's like you'll
0:20:44know it.
0:20:45It'll be a big deal.
0:20:46Exactly.
0:20:47No, but so I'm working on this, you know, this new plus plus health and fitness app.
0:20:51And in general, I haven't talked about it.
0:20:53Most of why I haven't talked about it is because honestly, like I always have in the back of
0:20:57my mind, like maybe this won't actually ship.
0:21:00Maybe this won't, this idea that I have at the beginning that as I'm going along and
0:21:04developing it won't actually turn into something that's shippable.
0:21:07And that's happened before.
0:21:08Yet another reason not to pre-announce things is that when you pre-announce things, you're
0:21:11kind of promising them, you're committing to them.
0:21:14And you will have people who are very upset if you don't release what you pre-announced
0:21:17and at the time you announced it, that it would come out.
0:21:20Yeah.
0:21:21And I mean, it's like, and even moreover, like I think the bigger thing that I've from
0:21:24my own experience I found is if you pre-announce something too early, like often what has happened
0:21:30where I work on a project, I think it's going to be an app.
0:21:32It turns out it doesn't quite get to the level of where I feel like it's worth releasing.
0:21:38But like a year later or six months later, the kernel of that idea with something new,
0:21:43like some new API, some new platform, something happens that makes it finally a good idea.
0:21:48Like I actually, like for Activity++, which is all about the three activity metrics on
0:21:54the Apple Watch, I actually wrote an app earlier that was before Apple opened up all of the
0:22:01health metrics that did just trying to think it was doing basically the same thing, but
0:22:06only for the ones that were available, which I think was stand and active calories at the
0:22:09time, but I didn't have exercise minutes.
0:22:12At the end, I like, I kind of took that out.
0:22:14So I built the app out and I was like, yeah, this isn't, it just, without having all three,
0:22:18it doesn't really work.
0:22:19So I shelved it and then eventually Apple opened it up and then I could pick that project
0:22:23up and keep working on it.
0:22:24But because I hadn't talked about it at all, it's like I hadn't like ruined the idea or
0:22:30kind of burnt the anticipation or the interest in that until it was ready.
0:22:36And so I don't talk about things typically until I'm confident that I'm going to get
0:22:39there.
0:22:40And for me, that tipping point is essentially around the point where I would say you're
0:22:44kind of ready to send out a beta.
0:22:47Like at this point, I'm pretty committed to releasing this app.
0:22:51You know, whether or not it'll actually happen in two weeks on December 21st, like we'll
0:22:56have to see.
0:22:57But I, at this point, I do know that like I have something that I think is worth sending
0:23:04out into the world and I'm starting the beta process.
0:23:07And I tend to take an approach for these where I, you know, during development, I will share
0:23:13the idea and the process and the app with, you know, a few people, sort of the close
0:23:19friends and family kind of approach.
0:23:20It's people who either who I talk to on a sort of a more professional level in terms
0:23:26of like, "Hey, here's this screen.
0:23:28What do you think?
0:23:29Does this make sense?"
0:23:30Like, and it's a UI designer, another iOS developer.
0:23:33Like I have friends like this who I can talk to about the low level stuff, or I'll show
0:23:36it to friends and family at a more like just casual level of being like, "Hey, if I showed
0:23:43you this UI, what do you think you would do with it?"
0:23:46To kind of do that kind of very informal user interface testing.
0:23:50But as I get the point to now where it's like, I have something that I think is basically,
0:23:55it's not quite shippable, but it's like functionally complete, it's not polished.
0:23:59At this point, it's like, "Okay, I'll start expanding that out and telling more and more
0:24:04people about the app."
0:24:06And this process, you know, essentially goes, at least the way I do it is I will send out
0:24:11my first rounds of betas to a relatively narrow group.
0:24:17And it's usually the people who, it's not the full like press group of everybody who
0:24:22I would ever want to know about it.
0:24:25It's if you chosen people, typically, there's a few people in the press who I have like,
0:24:31you know, strong personal relationships with who I'll make sure I reach out to.
0:24:35But it's also like in that first level, it's like, I don't want to send something out.
0:24:39And then like, a few days later, get some feedback back that really changes how this
0:24:44is going to be or find some huge, you know, bug.
0:24:47I don't do that in my first round.
0:24:48It's like my first round, I just want to kind of keep small, send it out, get some information
0:24:52back and then probably about a week later after that one, which for me will probably
0:24:56be this Friday or so or next Monday, I'll be sending out like a bigger one and I'll
0:25:02send it out this one out to a big wide group of press of influential people, whatever that
0:25:09might be.
0:25:10This is the kind of everybody who I might want to do and hopefully by doing that two
0:25:15phase thing of not sending in the first one out to everybody, where, you know, it's the
0:25:20first time that the app is kind of getting outside of my control and inevitably you're
0:25:24going to find bugs and problems.
0:25:26And it's like, since I've sent out my first beta, I've had probably about, you know, 20
0:25:30good either like feature changes or bug reports, crashers, whatever it is, like I've gotten
0:25:36a bunch of feedback.
0:25:38And so I can show a much more polished product to the broader audience next week.
0:25:43And then at that point, I'll start like getting ready for the broader release.
0:25:48And I typically like I won't really say what it is and get into specifics kind of like
0:25:52you were talking about earlier, like I won't really get into all the specifics publicly
0:25:56until launch day.
0:25:57And then, you know, sometime hopefully somewhere around on or around the 21st I'll, you know,
0:26:02have a blog post, I'll tweet about it, they'll probably talk about it on the show would be
0:26:05my guess.
0:26:07Like anything I can do at that point, and then it's less like the megaphone, but it's
0:26:10this very kind of like, it starts close, it gets slightly bigger.
0:26:15Once I'm confident, it's like, as I get increasingly confident, I'll increasingly open it up.
0:26:19And in a weird way, it's also probably fair to say that some of the best feedback I get
0:26:23is often from people in the press, because they are professionally trained, at least
0:26:30by or at least by experience at tearing apps apart.
0:26:33Like that's what they do.
0:26:34Like they find all the problem problems.
0:26:37They look at it and be like in the review, they're going to say like, this is what I
0:26:39like, this is what I don't like.
0:26:41And you'll get the feedback from them in that early round, hopefully where they'll be like,
0:26:45this is not so good, to let you make it better.
0:26:49- Well, and they also have a lot of experience with a lot more apps than you probably do.
0:26:53Well, maybe not you, 'cause you've made all the apps, but you know, but like, you know,
0:26:57like anybody who I would send, any press person that I would send an Overcast Beta to, they
0:27:02have seen, almost certainly they have seen way more apps than I have.
0:27:06They have used way more apps than I have.
0:27:07They have tried out way more apps than I have.
0:27:09They have probably even tried out more of my competitors than I have and spent more
0:27:12time with them.
0:27:13So like, they're gonna, they'll be able to tell you ahead of time, if they're willing,
0:27:18how basically how your app stacks up.
0:27:21And they will tell you the shortcomings and the, you know, the competitive disadvantages
0:27:24and the competitive advantages.
0:27:25Like you'll be able to get an idea from people who basically review apps for a living, like
0:27:30you'll get an idea pretty quickly from them.
0:27:32So it's incredibly helpful to involve people.
0:27:34But I would say also though, that like, you know, the bigger a beta is, the less you have
0:27:39secrecy.
0:27:40Like, when, so with Overcast, I did the initial beta with like only trusted friends and trusted
0:27:46press people.
0:27:48With later versions that are just, that are mostly just like bug fix updates, I have done
0:27:51basically a public beta where I'd let anybody sign up for the beta and just open it up to
0:27:56like a thousand people.
0:27:57And you basically have no secrecy for the latter.
0:28:00Like that's basically a public release at that point.
0:28:02So like 3.0 is not gonna have that kind of beta.
0:28:05It's gonna have more the first time, it's just gonna be private friends because I do
0:28:10wanna maintain secrecy for what I'm changing and adding in 3.0.
0:28:14But you know, it's really up to, you know, your goals and what you're looking to get
0:28:17out of the beta and how important the secrecy ends up being to you.
0:28:20- Yeah, and I suppose there is just at the end of it, it's just, I try to hold, like
0:28:27as I look back on my career, I think in the earlier days, I thought of my apps as more
0:28:32precious then than I do now.
0:28:35That you kind of, it's good to have a bit of perspective about how important some of
0:28:41these details are.
0:28:43And like that, you know, that you, so easy to get in your own head and like, wow, this
0:28:47app is gonna change everything.
0:28:48It's gonna be amazing.
0:28:49It's gonna be revolutionary.
0:28:51And you kind of over-hype it in your brain and you get too worried about some of these
0:28:55details of like who to tell, who not to tell, whether you should do it.
0:28:58It's like at the end of the day, probably just relax.
0:29:01Like do what makes sense and feels comfortable for you.
0:29:03Be authentic about that and it'll probably work out.
0:29:07- Exactly.
0:29:08All right, thanks for listening everybody and we will talk to you next week.
0:29:12- Bye.
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