Under the Radar

24: Should You Register for a WWDC Ticket?


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04   I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05   >> And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06   Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10   >> So today we wanted to talk about WWDC.

00:00:13   It was just announced as we record.

00:00:14   It was just announced a little less than a day ago.

00:00:18   And we wanted to talk about whether you want to go or not, because right now they're doing

00:00:21   this kind of lottery system just like in the last couple of years where you can register

00:00:27   to get a ticket and you have to commit to buy it to register. And then if you win the

00:00:34   lottery and if you get awarded a ticket, they charge you a credit card that you've registered

00:00:38   with them and it's not refundable. So you basically have to pre-commit $1600 to potentially

00:00:45   getting this ticket if you want a chance of getting one at all. So this raises the obvious

00:00:48   question for a lot of us of, "Well, do I want to try for this or not?" And David, I'm curious,

00:00:55   Did you register, and if so, why?

00:00:57   I did.

00:00:58   I have a lot of reasons why I registered for WWDC.

00:01:03   It's very important for me personally, and some of these things will only apply to the

00:01:07   way that I run my business and the way my business is structured, but for me, WWDC is

00:01:14   a very unique opportunity, like the actual event going to it, beyond just the things

00:01:20   that I could do at home.

00:01:22   I think this year they're going to be live streaming the sessions. In past years it's

00:01:27   been the videos that were available a few hours later. And so if you were just wanting

00:01:32   to go to the conference, if you were just wanting to get the information that's presented

00:01:35   from stage, there's really no need to go to WWDC, there's no reason to go to San Francisco.

00:01:40   You could just do that at home. For me, though, the thing about WWDC that makes me want to

00:01:46   go, there's a main reason and then there's a secondary reason. The main reason for me

00:01:50   me is the labs. So every year at W3C, the way it's structured is probably good to

00:01:54   have a quick overview. On Monday, and this year it's from the 13th to the 18th of June,

00:02:03   on the Monday they'll have the big keynote addresses. In the morning there's usually

00:02:07   the executive one, where Tim Cook and Phil Schiller and those kind of people will come

00:02:13   up on stage and give the broad strokes of Apple's vision for the next generation of

00:02:19   their software, typically. So what's coming in iOS, OS X, watchOS, tvOS, like the big

00:02:25   high-level things, will break for lunch, and then they'll have the developer state of the

00:02:29   union type of thing, where they talk in greater technical depth about all the things that

00:02:35   were said in the morning. And then the rest of the week, Tuesday through Friday, is broken

00:02:39   up into, there'll be sessions, which are sort of power-up or keynote presentations, talking

00:02:46   about the various technologies that are introduced or things that are new, things that you want

00:02:50   to learn about, and those are going to be live streamed and available.

00:02:54   And then downstairs, at the Moscone West Center where it's held, they have the labs, which

00:03:00   are where a bunch of Apple engineers, essentially, I think they usually say it's something like

00:03:04   about a thousand engineers are on hand at various times throughout the week, will sit

00:03:09   down and they'll have sort of office hours where you can come in and talk to people on

00:03:14   the various technical teams.

00:03:15   So say I'm having a problem with Core Motion.

00:03:17   I can go to the Core Motion lab and I can sit down and I can talk to somebody who either

00:03:22   wrote the APIs that I'm working with or knows the person who did.

00:03:27   And for me, that's the part that is completely irreplaceable and in some ways, honestly,

00:03:34   kind of essential for the way that I do my business because I have kind of made a living

00:03:39   on looking at Apple's newest platforms and their newest technologies and being one of

00:03:44   the first people to adopt them in whatever form that looks like.

00:03:48   So whenever there's a new, like I just did with Activity++, there was this new API for

00:03:52   accessing activity data, I submitted my app the moment it was possible to do that.

00:03:58   And that works out.

00:03:59   And for me, WWDC is this tremendous opportunity to go and talk to people about not really

00:04:04   the "what" of what was announced, like things that you get from the video where they say,

00:04:08   "Here's the five new APIs, here's the new things, here's what's going on," but being

00:04:13   able to go and talk to an engineer about the "why," and to be able to say, "Well,

00:04:18   this is… I can go and I can…" What I'll tend to do is I'll sit down and bang out

00:04:24   a really rough prototype of something I'm thinking about maybe working on this summer,

00:04:27   go down to the lab and be like, "Hey, this is how I'm doing it, and is this a reasonable

00:04:31   approach?" Nothing even more specific than "Is this a reasonable approach?" You will

00:04:35   often be from conversations then with those engineers, you can understand why they're

00:04:39   doing things the way they are. And for me, that's kind of essential. And I'm registered

00:04:45   for a ticket. I got my fingers crossed that I'll be one of the ones who's been selected

00:04:49   for that reason. And then secondarily, and a bit more amusingly, I love going to WWDC

00:04:55   because it's almost like every year being an iOS developer, there are a lot of things

00:05:01   that are frustrating. There are a lot of things that are challenging. And that can kind of

00:05:06   wear on you after a while. And the thing with about WWDC is I've had the privilege of going

00:05:11   I think six times before, six or seven, quite a few. And every time I go, I always leave

00:05:18   WWDC feeling excited, motivated, and just kind of like jazzed about the platform and

00:05:24   the cool things that are coming. And you could say it's kind of like going back, it's like

00:05:28   I go to San Francisco and I drink the Kool-Aid again, and that's kind of like the negative

00:05:32   way to look at it, or you could just say, "It's a time to go and reconnect with

00:05:37   the things that originally made me so excited for this platform," and kind of wash away

00:05:41   some of the things that may have been frustrating in the previous year and kind of re-center

00:05:45   and focus on, "Okay, what's going to happen the next year?" And so for me, the $1600

00:05:52   and throwing my name in the hat just makes perfect sense.

00:05:54   - Yeah, I mean, I have mostly the same kind of feelings

00:05:57   about it.

00:05:58   I also registered and I also put down the potential $1600

00:06:03   to potentially get a ticket.

00:06:05   For me, it's mostly about the community side at this point

00:06:10   because the technical stuff is,

00:06:14   while it is strong and it is very good,

00:06:18   you also don't, increasingly you have to be there

00:06:21   less and less to get it.

00:06:23   because every year, it used to be back in the olden days,

00:06:27   back when you could sell apps for money,

00:06:28   it used to be that they would put up the videos

00:06:33   like three months after the conference

00:06:35   or something like that.

00:06:36   And then every year as the conference has become

00:06:41   more and more oversold and over capacity,

00:06:44   they've tried to address that issue of like,

00:06:47   there's so many people who want to be there

00:06:49   but just can't get a ticket 'cause there aren't enough

00:06:51   or they can't get out there for scheduling or work reasons,

00:06:54   or the other problem is it's just a lot of money,

00:06:57   and a lot of people cannot afford to put down

00:07:00   the probably all-in $4,000 that you'll be into

00:07:05   to do this trip, something like that,

00:07:07   'cause a big part of it is the hotel,

00:07:09   but we'll see how that goes. (laughs)

00:07:11   So it's a lot of money.

00:07:13   It's a week off of work that you have to go do this,

00:07:16   so a lot of people can't be there.

00:07:17   So what they've been doing is making the videos available

00:07:21   earlier and earlier to the point where,

00:07:24   oh, and also dropping the requirement

00:07:26   that you even had to be a paying developer member

00:07:29   to even watch them, that used to be the case.

00:07:31   Now, any developer account can watch them for free,

00:07:34   and you don't have to have been there,

00:07:36   you don't need the $100 full membership level.

00:07:39   Any developer can watch these videos,

00:07:41   and the videos themselves have gotten better,

00:07:43   they have transcripts and it's searchable

00:07:45   and all that stuff,

00:07:46   and the production value has gone up and everything,

00:07:48   and they are now releasing them so fast.

00:07:50   Last year they were released within a day or so

00:07:54   of the talks happening, and this year they're saying,

00:07:57   as you mentioned, this year they're gonna be

00:07:59   live broadcasting them, which has never happened before

00:08:01   for anything beyond the initial keynote.

00:08:04   So increasingly there's less and less reason

00:08:07   why you need to be there as a developer.

00:08:10   And that's why in past years I have been so scared

00:08:15   that I wouldn't get a ticket, and I've been very lucky

00:08:17   that for the last seven years I have gotten a ticket.

00:08:20   And, although one year I had to sign up

00:08:23   two developer accounts to get it.

00:08:25   (laughs)

00:08:26   But this year, if I don't get a ticket,

00:08:29   I don't think I'm gonna be as disappointed.

00:08:32   And I'm still gonna go.

00:08:34   And there's a whole question of like

00:08:35   whether you should go out to San Francisco

00:08:37   for that week anyway, even if you don't get a ticket.

00:08:40   'Cause there are other things to do.

00:08:41   There are other events that people put on,

00:08:44   just not Apple, but you know, there's other conferences,

00:08:46   There's the Layers Conference, there's Alt Conf,

00:08:49   there's a lot of meetups and user groups,

00:08:52   and there's just all these developers

00:08:53   who were all in town that week.

00:08:55   And so there's lots of social events.

00:08:57   If you have any developer friends

00:08:58   or if you just go to a bar near Moscone,

00:09:00   you will find developers,

00:09:01   and you can make developer friends.

00:09:03   So there's a lot of reasons to be there regardless.

00:09:07   So if I don't get a ticket this year,

00:09:10   I think what I will miss the most

00:09:13   is kind of the fun of being in the building

00:09:18   and going to sessions live and going to the keynote,

00:09:22   waiting with you and Jon and Casey in line

00:09:25   and doing all that stuff.

00:09:28   Well, will I really miss the line?

00:09:30   - It's part of the fun, right?

00:09:32   - I'll miss the camaraderie of the line,

00:09:34   but maybe not the duration of it.

00:09:36   But ultimately, I will have fun that week out there,

00:09:42   regardless of whether I get a ticket or not.

00:09:44   So the ticket will basically, if I get the ticket,

00:09:46   the value of it is in structuring my day

00:09:50   and giving me a place I have to be all day every day

00:09:53   and a venue to go to and things to see and talks to see

00:09:57   and kind of the focus of having it be like,

00:10:02   my only job this week is to watch these sessions

00:10:07   and then socialize at night.

00:10:08   But my primary job this week

00:10:10   is to watch these sessions live.

00:10:12   Because when they post the videos afterwards,

00:10:15   it's a little harder to find the time to sit down and do it

00:10:17   because if you're just sitting at home in your office,

00:10:21   you have all sorts of other work to do.

00:10:23   You might have a family to also take care of.

00:10:25   So your whole life is pressuring you

00:10:29   during all other times of the year

00:10:31   that you should probably be doing something else

00:10:33   rather than sitting and watching a whole bunch of videos

00:10:35   for APIs and stuff that you might not even be using yet,

00:10:38   that you might just think might be interesting,

00:10:40   when are you gonna find time to do that?

00:10:42   Well, if you're there, your job is to go to those things.

00:10:45   That is the reason you're there.

00:10:46   You have that time kind of carved out,

00:10:48   and that is what your focus is.

00:10:49   If you're not there, or if you're there without a ticket,

00:10:52   it's less focus, so I feel like I will miss

00:10:54   that kind of focus and forced attention on the sessions,

00:10:59   because that's a good thing.

00:11:02   However, probably the biggest thing I would miss

00:11:05   would be the Moscone sandwiches.

00:11:08   No, just kidding, it would be the labs.

00:11:10   It would be, as you mentioned,

00:11:13   having the labs, having access to the Apple engineers

00:11:18   has, not always, but has reasonably frequently

00:11:22   provided me with pretty good information,

00:11:25   oftentimes very good information.

00:11:27   So that is the part I would miss the most

00:11:30   if I don't get a ticket.

00:11:32   But the rest of the conference, I feel like

00:11:35   if you've gone to them for a few years,

00:11:38   kind of know what it is, assuming they don't change it, you know, massively, which is not

00:11:43   necessarily a safe assumption because they're already doing like the keynote at the Bill

00:11:46   Graham Auditorium and so we're going to see like there's some changes in the event here,

00:11:51   but I feel like I've gotten so much out of it in previous years that maybe it's time

00:11:57   for a break. I don't know. I don't know. I think I'm certainly conflicted on the issue.

00:12:03   That's why like if I do get a ticket, okay, well, I don't need to think about it for another

00:12:07   here. And if I don't get a ticket, I guess I'll see what happens."

00:12:12   And I think that's fair. Like, WWDC is, it's just, it comes, at least for me, it

00:12:19   comes into this strange middle ground between being, like, strictly rational and somewhat

00:12:25   emotional. Like, I have an affinity to it that is not just logical. It's not just

00:12:32   like, "Oh, it makes sense to go here." Like, I have good reasons that I can justify

00:12:36   to myself, and I think there are real reasons for like, I need to go and talk to people

00:12:39   in the labs that are good. But if I didn't get a ticket, it would be sad in a way that

00:12:47   it's just emotional. Like I remember in I think it was 2009 was my first WWDC.

00:12:52   Yeah, me too.

00:12:53   And like, I remember how exciting that felt. And there's a certain amount of nostalgia

00:12:59   or and just like affinity that I have for the event where I think about it and it's

00:13:04   It's just kind of fun. Everybody there loves and cares about the same things that I love

00:13:11   and care about, that they're all doing the same job. It's a really fun environment

00:13:16   to be in, and that emotional part of just every time. I mean, I've been to it for

00:13:21   years, but I still... When it finally comes right before the keynote, and everyone's

00:13:26   kind of finally found their seats, you're sitting down, the excitement of just being

00:13:31   there in that room, with everyone's kind of waiting and anticipating what's going to happen,

00:13:36   what's going to come. And in some ways, it's kind of impactful too, because the things

00:13:42   that are about to be announced are potentially completely up-end my business, or change dramatically

00:13:51   what I'm planning to do for the next three or four months. And so that puts a bit of

00:13:56   stakes on the announcements, and so then being there for it, there's such an emotional,

00:14:01   excitement that comes from it that I think I would miss even more than like, you know,

00:14:06   I would really be sad to not have the labs, but just to not have that feeling of like,

00:14:09   I don't know, excitement is the best word I have of just, while I don't love getting

00:14:14   up really early in the morning and standing out in the San Francisco, I guess, winter,

00:14:20   because it's freezing cold in June, but standing outside in that San Francisco winter where

00:14:25   it's just freezing cold and you're kind of just like mulling around for a few hours before

00:14:29   they let you in, which who knows, maybe at this new civic auditorium they'll have a better

00:14:35   scheme for that rather than just wrapping us around the block three times. But there's

00:14:40   just something exciting about it. And if you're a developer who's never been to WWDC, it's

00:14:48   a hard thing to explain that feeling. If you're looking at it and it's like, "You know, I

00:14:55   get pretty much all the information I need from just staying at home, that is absolutely

00:15:01   true. There's no strict need to go to WWDC. The videos are live streamed. If you have

00:15:06   questions and problems and that was something that would have been helpful to go to the

00:15:11   labs, there are people at Apple you can reach out to. There's a whole evangelism team whose

00:15:15   job it is to field similar types of questions, but it's just never going to be the same.

00:15:21   And so I would encourage most people, especially if you've never been, to try it.

00:15:27   Like put your name in and, you know, obviously everyone's mileage will differ, and you

00:15:32   may just find it not really your thing.

00:15:34   But for me, every year I've come back, I've always wanted to go back the next year.

00:15:38   I've never gone to WWDC and then come back and said, "You know what?

00:15:42   That's probably it for me.

00:15:43   I'm probably done."

00:15:45   Every year I come back just more and more excited, even as things have changed.

00:15:50   have been a wildly different thing. Back in 2009, what would that have been they were

00:15:54   announcing? iOS, or probably iPhone OS 4? Something like that? It is so much has changed

00:16:02   since then. It's kind of the crazy things I remember when they introduced iCloud. That

00:16:09   was a big deal at one of them. That was Steve's last presentation, or his last big one at

00:16:14   least. Yeah, it was certainly, and I mean, obviously that side of things is even more

00:16:19   more crazy when I think about the fact that I had the privilege of seeing Steve Jobs'

00:16:24   keynotes. That's kind of special in a way that's almost a little overwhelming. Having

00:16:33   been able to--I think I saw two or three that he presented at, and just seeing the legend

00:16:39   is really cool. So that's kind of where I am. But I think, like you say, I'm going

00:16:45   out either way. No matter what, I will be in San Francisco from the Sunday before to

00:16:51   the Friday after. I will be there if I have a ticket. Awesome. As you say, it's lovely

00:16:56   to give some structure. If I don't, I don't really know what I'll do during the day. I

00:17:02   imagine I will watch some of the sessions. Maybe I'll do a bit more actual programming

00:17:07   rather than watching and thinking about programming, which I don't know if that's better or worse.

00:17:13   be a little easier to socialize a bit more. But one way or the other, I'm going to be

00:17:18   there. Because I think even not being past the door and being inside, there's still

00:17:23   something exciting about going to a place. Because I think I remember, I think it was

00:17:28   Jason Snell was talking about this, where it used to be—there were events like Macworld

00:17:35   Expo, which was a place where people could go to be around like-minded people, people

00:17:42   who cared about the same kind of things, and there's something kind of fun and exciting

00:17:45   about that. And now, the main event for Apple-minded people, where if you go there and just sort

00:17:54   of, like, buy osmosis, we'll be surrounded by people who care about the same stuff. It's

00:17:59   that one week, this week, in San Francisco. And so, I would just go just for that, just

00:18:05   to be around these people. There are many people who I only see once a year, and I see

00:18:11   them in San Francisco during WVDC. And like, I have friends, you know, sort of like whole

00:18:16   friendships just based on that. And so it's kind of fun to just have that as a thing.

00:18:22   Oh yeah. I mean, that's why like the idea of not going out there at all just didn't

00:18:30   even occur to me. That's why as soon as the date was firmly announced yesterday, I

00:18:33   booked the flight. And I don't know if I'm going to have the conference badge or not

00:18:37   yet, but I booked the flight. And I booked the hotel months ago because hotels are easily

00:18:40   cancelable for no money. And so like I booked the stuff because the idea of not going never

00:18:46   even entered my mind. Of course I'm going. This is like this is the one conference that

00:18:50   happens every year that it is like a fixed block on my calendar. It is non-negotiable.

00:18:57   Like it would take a lot for me not to go. Like it would have to be like some like massive

00:19:03   family event like having a baby. Like then I wouldn't go. But otherwise like it would

00:19:08   be it would take a lot for me not to go to this whether I have a ticket or not.

00:19:12   And you know the a little bit more on having tickets or not in a second but first I wanted

00:19:18   to thank our sponsor this week.

00:19:20   We were sponsored this week we decided to do something a little different this week

00:19:23   we're sponsored this week by ourselves and our own apps because we both have apps that

00:19:28   you can buy and it turns out we have a way to advertise for fairly low money here because

00:19:33   we don't have to pay ourselves and we have to for our own stuff.

00:19:36   So my half of this advertisement is, please, I would love it if you can give Overcast a

00:19:41   try and if you're already an Overcast user and if you're not a patron yet, I'd love it

00:19:45   if you could become a patron.

00:19:46   You get a cool dark mode and you get to support the service and support server costs and stuff

00:19:50   like that and my amazing extravagant lifestyle.

00:19:53   So David?

00:19:56   I would like to encourage you, if you do not already, to try one of my fitness and wellness

00:20:02   apps.

00:20:03   So I make a couple of apps.

00:20:04   They tend to have a plus plus at the end of them.

00:20:05   is pedometer++, sleep++, and activity++, apps that help you measure and understand

00:20:12   your fitness and level of activity throughout the day and hopefully help you to make more

00:20:16   active choices. And so if you haven't already, please go check either some of those apps

00:20:21   out or Marco's Overcast and give us a try and support us that way. If you listen to

00:20:27   this and you like the way we speak, maybe you'll like the things we make too.

00:20:31   - Thanks.

00:20:32   So if you're planning on going into WWDC without a ticket,

00:20:36   there are a couple things that I would add to this

00:20:38   just a little bit.

00:20:39   So first of all, I agree with you, David.

00:20:40   I'm a little concerned about what the heck

00:20:43   I would do all day.

00:20:45   The good thing is there are a lot of people

00:20:47   who go out there without tickets.

00:20:49   And so there are little gatherings.

00:20:52   Sometimes some of the local companies,

00:20:54   like I think Twitter hosted a keynote watching party

00:20:57   last year, was that right?

00:20:58   - That sounds right, yeah.

00:20:59   - Yeah, and so sometimes local San Francisco companies

00:21:01   who have offices in the area will host developer

00:21:05   get-togethers and meetups and little events

00:21:07   to watch some of the live streams.

00:21:09   A lot of some people will just watch them,

00:21:10   they'll rent a little conference room in the hotel

00:21:13   that they're in and just have a small gathering

00:21:15   of people to watch them there,

00:21:17   or people will just watch them privately

00:21:18   in little groups of two or three friends together.

00:21:21   So there are a lot of people who go out there.

00:21:23   The only thing is, if you already know people,

00:21:25   if you already have established friends and contacts

00:21:29   who will be there, it's a lot easier.

00:21:31   If you're going out there and you don't know anybody yet,

00:21:33   I highly suggest trying to get that ticket.

00:21:36   Because it's a lot, it's not that it can't be done

00:21:39   to go out there without knowing anybody

00:21:40   and find people and make new friends,

00:21:42   but it's a lot harder if you don't have a ticket.

00:21:44   'Cause if you're in the conference building,

00:21:46   then you're gonna be walking around

00:21:47   and everybody around you is gonna be an iOS developer

00:21:50   or a Mac developer, or a soon to be iOS or Mac developer.

00:21:54   Everyone around you is gonna be part of that social group

00:21:57   and there's gonna be so many other people there

00:21:59   who, in the building, who are looking to meet people,

00:22:02   looking to socialize, and looking to make new friends,

00:22:04   looking to make contacts.

00:22:06   Whereas if you're walking around the streets

00:22:08   or sitting in a hotel room, it's harder.

00:22:10   Again, it can be done, but it's harder.

00:22:12   So if it's your first time out there,

00:22:14   if you don't have a lot of friends already in the community,

00:22:17   I do highly suggest trying to get that ticket.

00:22:19   It will help a lot.

00:22:20   And otherwise, if you are,

00:22:24   regardless of whether you know anybody out there or not,

00:22:26   If you're going out there to hang out

00:22:29   and to meet new people, don't be afraid

00:22:32   to go up to people who you see, who you recognize,

00:22:35   if they're well-known developers or podcasters

00:22:38   or bloggers, whatever, go up to them and say hi.

00:22:42   Do not be the person who sits back and then tweets later,

00:22:45   oh, I saw Jon Gruber today, but I was too scared to say hi.

00:22:48   Because you know what?

00:22:50   All of us people who you might know in this community,

00:22:53   we're all just normal people.

00:22:54   It's not like we're Brad Pitt.

00:22:55   You don't have to be worried about coming up and saying hi

00:22:58   'cause it's really cool for us to have anybody

00:23:01   in real life know who we are because that's amazing

00:23:05   because every day is not like that.

00:23:06   (laughing)

00:23:08   And so go up to people.

00:23:10   I think you will find that this is a very friendly community

00:23:13   and we are all, the vast majority of us,

00:23:17   are all socially awkward geeks.

00:23:20   And so if you are worried,

00:23:23   if you are a socially awkward geek,

00:23:25   you don't need to be worried about that because all of us are and we are very welcoming and

00:23:32   we are likely just as nervous trying to have conversations with people we don't know as

00:23:36   you might be, but please come up and talk to anybody you find who you recognize. Also,

00:23:42   don't be afraid to @reply, to mention people on Twitter, to ask people like, "Hey, where

00:23:49   are you hanging out tonight? Are there any good parties that you might know or any good

00:23:54   gatherings that are public or whatever. If you need access into a certain group of social

00:24:02   community or group of friends who you're trying to meet or certain developer or certain

00:24:07   writer or whatever else, you can be a little forthcoming. You don't have to stalk anybody,

00:24:13   but you can be a little forthcoming because this is ultimately a very open community,

00:24:18   to new people, welcoming of new people, and there's so many people out there who are all

00:24:26   basically the same kind of person. We all like the same stuff. Many of us, as I said,

00:24:31   are geeks, and we all like to say hi to people who share a common interest. So it's totally

00:24:37   okay to be a little forward socially in meeting people when you're out there.

00:24:42   Yeah, because I think, and just to extend that too, I remember clearly that first year

00:24:51   going out to WWDC and knowing nobody. I couldn't think of one person that I knew when I was

00:25:00   going out there. And at this point, my apps weren't particularly well known. It wasn't

00:25:05   like I had a podcast or a blog or something that people would know me by. I was so fairly

00:25:10   knew it did this. But I still had people that I admired, people that I respected, that I

00:25:18   had in the back of my mind, like, "How cool would it be to meet these people?" And it

00:25:24   took a lot of effort, and I remember it being very difficult to force myself to not just

00:25:31   go back to my hotel room every night and go to sleep or whatever, or just work on my code,

00:25:37   or things like that. It was so easy, and always the path of least resistance is always like,

00:25:43   "You know what? I could go to this event, or I could go and just hang out at the Moscone

00:25:49   Center. I could do that. Or I could not, and I could just have dinner by myself and then

00:25:55   go back to my hotel room." And some nights I would have the courage to go out, and some

00:26:04   nights I didn't. And the reality, though, looking back, is I wouldn't have the friends

00:26:10   I have now and the connections I have in our community if every night I had just gone,

00:26:16   had dinner by myself, and then went back to my hotel. I have dear and precious friends

00:26:22   to me now who I got to know because at some point I went up to somebody and said, "Hi,

00:26:30   I'm David Smith, I love your work, and it's a pleasure to meet you. There are so many

00:26:36   people who I just admired and respected who then that's how I met that way. I mean, it's

00:26:41   weird when they say that, "That's how I met you, Marco."

00:26:43   Yeah, in front of the W.

00:26:45   I remember meeting you at WWDC, and if I could have told my past self, "In a couple years

00:26:56   you'll be doing a podcast with Marco," it would have sounded completely absurd to me.

00:27:00   Like at this point, I think I was a big Build and Analyze fan, and it was this kind of whole

00:27:04   thing. And you never know how these things are going to play out, and you just never

00:27:08   know. But if you don't have—if you don't just like, "You know what? I'm going to

00:27:11   do this." It doesn't feel good, but I know that it'll end up better.

00:27:16   Like flossing.

00:27:17   Yeah, whatever, exactly. It's just like flossing.

00:27:19   Meeting us is like flossing.

00:27:21   Exactly. It's such a wonderful analogy. But I definitely would encourage people to

00:27:27   do that. And sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. Sometimes you'll have really awkward

00:27:32   interactions that feel like, "Man, that didn't really go well." But other times it really

00:27:38   will. And it's the kind of thing—there's no magic answer for socializing. It's not

00:27:42   like, "Oh, here's these three things that you should do," but it's the kind of thing

00:27:46   that you just keep doing, and then you'll look back on and see how those moments of

00:27:53   of just being like, you know what,

00:27:55   I'm gonna go up and say hello.

00:27:57   Well, eventually, you do it enough, it gets easier,

00:28:00   and it starts to build some real connections

00:28:03   that you can look back on and kind of just be amazed.

00:28:06   - Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes.

00:28:10   So I guess that's all the time we have for this week.

00:28:13   Thank you, everybody, for listening.

00:28:15   I hope that if you have the means and opportunity

00:28:20   to consider going to WBC.

00:28:22   I hope you register to get a ticket,

00:28:24   'cause you have to do that basically now

00:28:26   to have a chance of getting it.

00:28:28   For everybody who registered

00:28:29   who really needs that ticket to go, I hope you get one.

00:28:34   And I look forward to seeing everybody this year.

00:28:37   - Yeah, I imagine you'll be able to,

00:28:39   one way or the other, you'll be able to find Marco and I

00:28:42   in San Francisco, so if you see us, by all means, say hi.

00:28:45   - You can definitely spot David by the color of his shirt.

00:28:49   It's usually very bright and blue.

00:28:52   - Exactly.

00:28:53   Basically the brighter version of the color

00:28:55   of OS X folders.

00:28:57   Is that about right?

00:28:58   - That's about right, yeah.

00:28:59   Or maybe I think the better one to go for is

00:29:01   if you have one of those blue developer watches

00:29:04   that Apple Watch, you know, Apple put out

00:29:06   when Apple Watch was first introduced.

00:29:09   If you see something that's that blue,

00:29:11   that's probably me.

00:29:12   - Exactly.

00:29:14   All right, thanks for listening everybody

00:29:15   and always floss and we will talk to you next week.

00:29:19   Bye.

00:29:22   I don't floss.