0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:03I'm Mark Orment.
0:00:04And I'm David Smith.
0:00:05Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:09So last week we talked about kind of why Apple probably needs to improve the App Store in
0:00:13broad terms, like, you know, challenging the question of like, does the App Store need
0:00:19to be improved?
0:00:20And it's sort of like, what kind of improvements might we see?
0:00:22And last week we talked in kind of high level of mostly just like, why we think it really
0:00:28does need improvement, why we aren't just being selfish and serving our own needs as
0:00:31independent developers, trying to make the App Store more beneficial for us. I think
0:00:37we argued well that Apple really should change it to benefit not only the developers, but
0:00:44themselves and customers as well. I don't think the App Store is as good as it can be.
0:00:49I don't think we've learned nothing from its eight years of existence that could inform
0:00:54you know, directions it should try to take or changes that it should try to make. And
0:00:58I don't think that the apps are as good as they can be for the customers that result
0:01:02from the system that we have now. You know, like I recalled when I was getting on a plane
0:01:07how I tried to download like a bunch of good games and they were actually pretty hard to
0:01:11find. And there's so much on there that's just kind of crappy and simplistic and even
0:01:18like outright hostile to users which is like, you know, shoving ads all over the place and
0:01:22and tricking them into buying coins and everything.
0:01:24And I think that there's clear evidence
0:01:28that the App Store not only can be made better,
0:01:32but should be made better.
0:01:34But the actual specifics of doing that,
0:01:36I think, are really tricky.
0:01:38- But I think we can think about it and have some ideas.
0:01:41The nice thing on the plus side is that we've been
0:01:43following the App Store for, I think I've been making a,
0:01:47my first app was submitted almost eight years ago now,
0:01:51or whatever, I was there almost at the beginning,
0:01:53and so I look at it and it's like,
0:01:55I think I have some ideas.
0:01:58- I think one of the most obvious
0:02:00is to look at the editorial side.
0:02:02'Cause right now, there's always the question
0:02:04that people raise of discoverability.
0:02:07And when people complain about discoverability,
0:02:08what they're usually really complaining about
0:02:10is they think their app deserves more visibility.
0:02:14Trying to look at this from a neutral perspective,
0:02:16not just saying that I think my app deserves more visibility,
0:02:20I think the main problem the App Store has
0:02:23with discoverability is that they have
0:02:26this massive number of apps,
0:02:28this unfathomable number of apps that they have to
0:02:33kind of sort through and surface somehow,
0:02:35and then they only have really a pretty small number
0:02:39of places that you can browse those apps.
0:02:41So there's the total surface area of discoverability
0:02:46besides just search, which is a separate problem,
0:02:49is kind of low.
0:02:50You basically only have top charts,
0:02:53and you have top charts in different categories,
0:02:55so that helps a little bit.
0:02:57But you have top charts,
0:02:58and then you have the editorial picks.
0:03:01And even though the editorial staff is,
0:03:04from what it seems, massive,
0:03:07because they have different editorial staffs
0:03:09in different countries too.
0:03:10So there's the amount of staffing devoted
0:03:13to picking those 20 or whatever featured apps
0:03:17on the front page every week,
0:03:18plus all the little subcategories, plus all the collections,
0:03:20plus doing that or some subset of that
0:03:22in a whole bunch of different countries
0:03:23and regions around the world,
0:03:25that is not a small endeavor.
0:03:27But the total result of that is that
0:03:30when a customer goes to the app store
0:03:32and looks through the editorial picks,
0:03:35you can be through the entire editorial list
0:03:39in like a minute and a half.
0:03:40It takes so much human effort on Apple's side
0:03:47to produce a relatively small number
0:03:49of recommendations every week,
0:03:51and every week is not that frequent.
0:03:53So then you have the top charts, which is just like,
0:03:56it just has the problem of basically the rich get richer,
0:03:59where it's very hard to break into the top charts.
0:04:02They tend to be self-reinforcing,
0:04:04because then people who browse the top charts
0:04:06buy from the top charts and keep them going up even further.
0:04:09So that system also only helps a very small number of apps.
0:04:14And then you have search,
0:04:15where search I think is really one of the only places
0:04:19where most apps can be found.
0:04:21But the search isn't that good in the App Store
0:04:24and it has gotten less terrible over time.
0:04:28I still wouldn't call it great or even necessarily good
0:04:32but it is at least less bad.
0:04:35But good searches are really hard
0:04:38and as we see from web search which has similar challenges
0:04:42but Apple has even less data in some ways
0:04:45than what you have on web search to go off of.
0:04:48Although they have a lot more data in other ways
0:04:49that I'm not sure they're using.
0:04:50But it seems like the overall discoverability
0:04:55of an app in the App Store is pretty miserable
0:04:58for almost every app, just because the number of ways
0:05:02people have to see your app are so much smaller
0:05:07than the number of apps in the store.
0:05:08And I don't know, do you know,
0:05:11what do you think would be a decent way
0:05:12to address that problem?
0:05:13So I think the most straightforward thing that I think they could do is the technological
0:05:21solution, where there's more of a technological solution.
0:05:23Things like search.
0:05:24It makes me think of when I go to Amazon.com, right?
0:05:28And I think Amazon sells several hundred million products.
0:05:34But I find that I'm pretty able to quickly go through and find good, solid choices because
0:05:42their search is more than just a text box that I put some words into. I put some words
0:05:48in a text box and then I can go through and I can sort in a variety of different ways.
0:05:53I can subdivide or there's further categories beyond just the highest level category. And
0:06:00I could imagine an interface in the App Store that would let you have more fine-grain control
0:06:06over what I'm searching for. That you have the ability to say like, "Show me..." even
0:06:11just like obvious stuff like show me free or paid apps, show me apps that are universal
0:06:18or iPhone only, show me apps that have reviews above a certain amount or are updated frequently
0:06:27or whatever. Like there are various criteria beyond just a text box that you could do to
0:06:33increase the ability to surface apps that are more specific to someone's needs. Because
0:06:40Because I think that the search as it is now, for example, has the same kind of rich-get-richer
0:06:44problem that sometimes I've benefited from in some of my apps, and sometimes I'm hurt
0:06:49by in other apps, where if you're the top one or two search results, that's great.
0:06:54That's a really powerful marketing tool.
0:06:57But if you're not, you're just invisible as far as the typical user is concerned.
0:07:04And that may or may not be good.
0:07:07If you're somebody who's looking for something of a very particular kind, you just have to
0:07:11do a lot of sitting there, sort of paging through the app store, doing things that it
0:07:15should be able to do programmatically for you.
0:07:19That side of it seems like that's a more straightforward, like that's a technological fix.
0:07:24And then yeah, I think on the editorial side, I think putting more and more resources into
0:07:29that seems like it can sort of only makes it better.
0:07:32if you turn over the featured area more regularly. And also one thing I've always thought they
0:07:39should do is taking the work that they put in editorial to whenever an app is featured,
0:07:46indicating that the app was featured somewhere on that app's page, for example. Like right
0:07:51now I think unless you are an editor's pick...
0:07:53Yeah, editor's choice gets you that I think, right? But I don't think anything else does.
0:07:57But that seems like one of those things, if it's almost like if Apple has taken the time
0:08:00and effort to look at an app and say, "You know what? This is on the approved list."
0:08:04They're saying that when they put it into the featured tab. Someone at Apple has sat
0:08:08down and looked at it. Once your feature is over, obviously I can put that in my description
0:08:12and say, "Featured by Apple in the Stay on Track Fitness category," and such and such.
0:08:18But wouldn't it be great if there's a little thumbs up icon next to the apps that Apple
0:08:23has said are really good? And as a customer, or like I was saying in search, of being able
0:08:29to say has been featured, I think would be an interesting kind of a way to improve discoverability
0:08:35of these apps that, you know, they're doing this work anyway, like they're spending that
0:08:39time to come up with a weekly featured, but then once they, the app has been featured,
0:08:44like that information just sort of disappears.
0:08:46I'm thinking too about like, about just the app page in general, like we also have a,
0:08:52I think a fairly big issue of just horrible abuses of app metadata, and there are some
0:08:57some rules around what you are and aren't allowed
0:09:00to put in the description and your keywords
0:09:02and your screenshots, but it seems like those rules
0:09:04are fairly loosely enforced a lot of the time.
0:09:08And so you have things like spamming up the description
0:09:12of your app with like tons and tons of like testimonials
0:09:15and stuff right on top and you have things like
0:09:18spamming keywords of other app names of your competitors'
0:09:21apps so that you turn up for their searches,
0:09:24which has been, I think, against the rules
0:09:27at the very beginning but is almost completely unenforced,
0:09:30partly out of necessity of just like a scale issue there,
0:09:32but it's still very, you know, mostly unenforced.
0:09:35You have things like whether you're supposed to put text
0:09:38and overlays on your screenshots or not,
0:09:41the good correct thing to do is not to do that,
0:09:44but so many people do it that you are at a disadvantage
0:09:46if you don't, I feel like.
0:09:47Maybe just like some basic rule tightening
0:09:52of what you can and can't put in your app metadata
0:09:55and on that app page, I think would improve
0:09:57the real world browsability a lot,
0:10:00and would improve search, 'cause then like,
0:10:01if you more strictly enforce the keyword issues
0:10:04and everything, you won't have as poor
0:10:06search results for things.
0:10:08I don't know, do you think there's meaningful change
0:10:11to be had there on the app pages?
0:10:13- I think, it certainly seems like there should be
0:10:15a ways to make that better.
0:10:17And I think the consistency is, I think,
0:10:19a big thing that I know I've always been frustrated with.
0:10:22And it's like, I look at, say for example,
0:10:25the watch apps, making watch apps now.
0:10:26And right now, I believe your watch screenshot
0:10:31can only show you the screenshot of the app.
0:10:34And it's a rule that so far
0:10:36they seem to be enforcing strongly.
0:10:37And that used to be the case,
0:10:39back in the case with the iPhone.
0:10:41And then just over time, it stopped being the case.
0:10:45And things like that,
0:10:46like that consistency I think would be helpful.
0:10:49And I think they did the same thing with app previews,
0:10:53which I believe were originally only allowed to show in-app screens, but I've certainly
0:10:58seen app previews now that show other things.
0:11:01Really?
0:11:02That wasn't even like a year.
0:11:04And that I don't see as much, but it has the same type of problem.
0:11:07It's like, it's the scale that app review is dealing with that, are they really able
0:11:13to every time an app goes through review, evaluate every single screenshot in every
0:11:19single country and the app previews associated with that for potentially many sizes. I look
0:11:27at it and it's like, "That's just a really tough problem." But enforcing that I think
0:11:31would be certainly helpful. And I like what they did, for example, with app previews.
0:11:37I think that's a great way to improve. That's probably the biggest improvement for a lot
0:11:43of apps in the App Store page from eight years ago, is being able to kind of show people
0:11:48what your app will be like when you actually get it,
0:11:50'cause if you don't have a trial or something like that,
0:11:53for a lot of apps, a screenshot, a static screenshot,
0:11:55doesn't really show you what the app is or what it's like.
0:12:00If it's something that you kind of have to experience
0:12:02or the motion and the animation
0:12:04or whatever it is of the app is the important part,
0:12:07having a way to show that is great.
0:12:08But yeah, and I think there's those,
0:12:11the things that I think about on the app page
0:12:13is trying to more straightforwardly indicate
0:12:15the customer, the overall quality of the app. And some of those things that I think about
0:12:21on the App Store page is the way reviews reset every time you submit a new update.
0:12:25Oh boy, reviews.
0:12:26And so reviews is a whole thing, but that's one of the things that I look at. And when
0:12:32I launch a new app, or even worse, is when I launch a new update, I try and get a bunch
0:12:38of attention. I do a big 2-0. And I try and get a lot of people coming to the App Store
0:12:43to download my app, and the app suddenly has no stars next to it, like has no reviews.
0:12:48Yeah, when you're sending all that traffic to it.
0:12:50It's like, why is this like—I understand why they did that. I remember when they implemented
0:12:56that policy, it was because people would run into issues where you'd have like a bad
0:13:00update that would crash for everybody. You'd get hundreds of one-star reviews, you'd
0:13:05fix it, and then all those one-star reviews would still be there. That's problematic
0:13:10in one way, but it's like, you approach this, like the thing that always makes sense to me is
0:13:14like you should show, if you don't have enough reviews for the current version, then show
0:13:18like the weighted average for the last 30 days, or always show the weighted average for the last 30
0:13:25days or 90 days or whatever. Like anything like that where there is data, if there is
0:13:30information that we can show customers, like if we can show if you've been featured, if we can show
0:13:34the kinds of reviews that you tend to get. They're collecting all this data with the
0:13:41new analytics stuff in iTunes Connect, like all the retention and engagement data. They have a
0:13:46lot of information about whether this app is good. It's like surfacing somehow that kind of
0:13:52information to the customer to say, "People who download this app really like this app."
0:13:57I don't exactly know how you show that, but if you have the data, somehow indicating that to
0:14:03to the customer seems like a good use of it,
0:14:06rather than it just kind of disappearing into the ether.
0:14:09- The whole star rating system, I think,
0:14:11really needs a lot of help.
0:14:13The idea of, first of all, star ratings
0:14:16are very prominent in the app and in the app store,
0:14:19and many things, I think, depend on them.
0:14:22I know search ranking has been rumored
0:14:24to be shifting with star rating.
0:14:26Obviously, Apple's probably more likely
0:14:28to feature something that has good ratings
0:14:29from past versions.
0:14:31And also just, I think, buyers are,
0:14:33or getters are much more likely to download an app
0:14:38that has good ratings under it
0:14:40when they go to look at its page.
0:14:41And then, if you're looking for an app,
0:14:43if you reach an app that has a few one-star ratings
0:14:46and the reasons that the people cite seem valid,
0:14:50then that's a big turn off
0:14:52and you probably are gonna reconsider buying
0:14:54or getting that app.
0:14:56So they do matter a lot
0:14:58and the way they're implemented is so mediocre.
0:15:00I feel like this is an obvious area
0:15:02for substantial specific improvements.
0:15:05So obviously one of the big ones is just quality control.
0:15:08Like you see a lot of reviews out there
0:15:11that really could have used moderation,
0:15:13like by App Store staff.
0:15:15I honestly, I think they might want to consider
0:15:17a review before publish model.
0:15:20I know that's a big scale, but they're a big company.
0:15:22This is a big store.
0:15:23You know, you gotta invest resources sometimes.
0:15:25Also just reconsidering the five star system at all.
0:15:29It's basically a one star and five star system.
0:15:32So why not consider a system that is more just based on,
0:15:35do I feel good about this,
0:15:36or do I feel bad about this app?
0:15:38And rather than have this trying to make people quantify,
0:15:41like, well, how good or how bad do I feel?
0:15:43Because I think we see over and over again,
0:15:45those systems don't work very well,
0:15:46and they don't really accurately represent
0:15:49what people are thinking with this app.
0:15:50And then the other obvious problem
0:15:52of having there be no way for developers
0:15:55to respond to these things publicly or privately,
0:15:57and so I think publicly would be the only way
0:15:59you really need to,
0:16:00think you necessarily need to give developers access to privately contacted reviewers, that
0:16:04could be an area for abuse. But publicly, I feel like we should have the ability to
0:16:08publicly respond to a bad review. Because a lot of times the bad review is not valid,
0:16:15or is unfair, or is inflammatory, or it's some other problem that doesn't qualify
0:16:21it for removal by Apple necessarily, but that is not really a fair representation. So it
0:16:27nice as a developer to be able to respond to those so that when people look at it, they
0:16:31can see how you responded or if you responded. And I'm saying this, I know it will be more
0:16:35work for us. Like I'm giving us more homework, but I think that's really important homework.
0:16:39If they're going to keep having the system and have it be as prominent as it is, then
0:16:43I think it's a little bit misrepresentative very frequently right now just because of
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0:18:18- So the last area that it seems like we couldn't wait
0:18:20into thinking about a better app store
0:18:22without discussing would be around business models,
0:18:26around the things that are perennially topics
0:18:30that come up for this.
0:18:31So obviously you have to think about things like trials
0:18:34or paid updates, those types of questions,
0:18:38or even just the way that in-app purchase
0:18:40kind of has become and is are things that I think
0:18:45there's certainly room for improvement.
0:18:46Like I remember a couple years ago
0:18:48when I wrote my big Towards a Better App Store thing,
0:18:50The thing that I was noticing even back then is this strange thing around trials, the difference
0:18:58between trials and refunds, where the App Store has this very ambiguous refund policy.
0:19:04I've gotten refunds for apps that I downloaded and it was totally different than what I actually
0:19:08expected it to be based on the description I saw on the app page, see our discussion
0:19:12five minutes ago, and it says, "I applied for a refund and I got it."
0:19:18Okay, that's great.
0:19:20But if you go into the App Store, the actual terms and conditions, that massive thing you
0:19:24sign every time you update anything, deep in there it says that there aren't any refunds.
0:19:30It's as best I can tell.
0:19:31And having ambiguity around that in some ways is problematic.
0:19:36If there are refunds for people who don't like apps they download, then basically you
0:19:40have trials.
0:19:42But if you don't make that public or don't make it obvious and easy to do, then it's
0:19:47not really a trial.
0:19:48And so I think about things like that.
0:19:49Like if they really don't want trials, then you don't have any refunds.
0:19:53But I think they do, and so why don't you make that process more straightforward and
0:19:57obvious?
0:19:58Like I love the thought, and I know this is what a couple of other app stores do, you
0:20:02download an app and if you delete it within a certain period of time, you get a refund
0:20:09for it.
0:20:10As though it has this built-in trial mode.
0:20:12And the duration for that, in many ways, to me, like I don't really mind too much exactly
0:20:17what that is.
0:20:18could probably be fairly short and I'd be happy.
0:20:20It could be fairly long and I'd be happy.
0:20:22I mean, maybe developers can choose that,
0:20:25which might be even better.
0:20:26- Yeah, I mean, I think ultimately,
0:20:27I think it has to be optional because there are so many
0:20:30abuses of those systems for those doings.
0:20:31I think Windows Phone was the one that was the big one
0:20:34where you'd try to, you'd basically have a large incentive
0:20:39to get all the value you could out of an app
0:20:41within a short period of time
0:20:42and then delete it and claim a refund.
0:20:44So for things like games, it was especially problematic
0:20:46where you'd just try to beat the whole game
0:20:47in like 24 hours and then all right, delete it,
0:20:50I want a refund.
0:20:52And so that kind of system being applied without choice
0:20:55to everybody is obviously not good.
0:20:58But it'd be great to have that as an option
0:20:59that you could opt into.
0:21:01And especially if you could even set the duration
0:21:03'cause then yeah, that is free trials
0:21:05if it happens automatically at least.
0:21:06And so that is, you know, I think with looking at things
0:21:11like trials and upgrades, which we'll get to in a second,
0:21:13I think, this won't solve the problems I mentioned
0:21:17last week about just there being way too many apps
0:21:21in the store and just there being tons of competition.
0:21:23It won't solve that problem, but it will make it easier
0:21:26for the apps that can get some kind of attention
0:21:30towards them to both get new customers or new users
0:21:34and then to stay healthy, to sustain the business.
0:21:37Because I think if you look at the App Store,
0:21:39one of the biggest problems it has,
0:21:41and this is something Apple should care about
0:21:43because it's affecting their product lines,
0:21:45is there are so many formerly great apps
0:21:48that have just fallen into disrepair
0:21:50and are no longer being maintained
0:21:51because the developers just couldn't make
0:21:53sustainable revenue from them enough
0:21:55to justify ongoing maintenance and ongoing expansion.
0:21:58So then you have issues like Apple launches the iPad Pro
0:22:01and a ton of iPad apps are not ever updated for it.
0:22:05And then that might hurt sales of the iPad Pro.
0:22:08So this is something like Apple should care
0:22:10about these kinds of things
0:22:11because those are really hurting them.
0:22:14So the question is, are they doing everything
0:22:17in their power to ensure that developers have the tools
0:22:22they need and the methods that they need
0:22:26to build sustainable businesses to keep their apps
0:22:30and the app store and the platform healthy enough?
0:22:33And I think the answer for that so far is obviously no.
0:22:36There's lots Apple could do that they're not only not doing
0:22:39but that it seems like they've never even tried
0:22:41or don't think they need to try.
0:22:43And of course, trials and upgrades,
0:22:44I think are the two big examples of that.
0:22:46And you can kind of simulate trials and upgrades
0:22:49through various app store hoops to jump through.
0:22:51You can kind of do it within app purchase to some degree,
0:22:54but there's a lot of restrictions around it,
0:22:56and a lot of things that don't work very well
0:22:57if you try to do it that way,
0:22:59and a lot of ways that customers can get really mad at you
0:23:01and give a whole bunch of one-star reviews,
0:23:03like if you try to do a paid app upgrade
0:23:04by just having a second app and you replace the first app,
0:23:07like that's a quick way to get
0:23:08a whole bunch of people to hate you.
0:23:09And so I feel like if Apple implemented these things
0:23:14as first class citizens, these actual,
0:23:17well-functioning trials and upgrades,
0:23:19they'd be way better for the customers
0:23:21and for the developers, and so we'd have more of them
0:23:24so we could have better apps,
0:23:26'cause we'd have more ways to make sustainable income.
0:23:28- Yeah, and I think the reality is,
0:23:30the thing is, just like we were saying around,
0:23:34we just wanna see change here.
0:23:36I can't imagine that the business model
0:23:39that the App Store was conceived of all those years ago,
0:23:42and still makes the most sense now.
0:23:46And so yeah, I'd love to see even--
0:23:48I could see any system they have,
0:23:51I could imagine there being a reluctance
0:23:53to do it because of the possibility for abuse,
0:23:55for example.
0:23:57But it's not like the current system, which is essentially
0:24:00in-app purchase driven, is devoid of abuse or opportunity
0:24:04for abuse.
0:24:06And so yeah, it would be very interesting
0:24:08to be able to do things like proper paid upgrades or having trials that are time limited or
0:24:15those types of opportunities. Because I think the thing that it also speaks to is there
0:24:22are different--it seems like from my experience, it seems like there are different customers
0:24:26in the app store. There are people who are much more--like, I never download a paid app.
0:24:33I've never paid for an app in my life. I only ever download free apps. There are some people
0:24:37that I know and have met, that's their mindset, and that's totally cool. I'm having a problem
0:24:43if that's the way they see the app store as something that they just want to be there
0:24:48as a free add-on to their phone. Great. But I think there are also many people who I've
0:24:53met who view the who are delighted to pay for apps, who would prefer if they are presented
0:25:00with a free or a paid option for something that seems somewhat equivalent, they'll take
0:25:04the paid one, both because they like the concept of supporting the person who makes it more
0:25:11directly, maybe they feel like it'll be better supported down the road, they like to feel
0:25:15like they paid for something, they don't like ads, whatever it is, they have reasons for
0:25:18doing that. And creating tools for developers to capitalize on those people is in a good
0:25:28way, not like capitalizing on them sounds like kind of skeevy, but if your customers
0:25:34are looking and willing to pay for a big upgrade to the software that they've been using for
0:25:40a year, having a mechanism to do that that isn't going to annoy them seems like a good
0:25:45thing.
0:25:46And it isn't going to hurt the people who like free apps and only want free apps if
0:25:50if paid apps can have paid updates or things of that kind,
0:25:55because they're just totally different markets.
0:25:59And so giving developers tools to do that
0:26:01seems like a good way to make sure
0:26:03that they're taking advantage of every opportunity
0:26:05they have for revenue, because revenue's so hard
0:26:08to get in the first place that giving us more options
0:26:11and choices seems like it'd only be a good thing.
0:26:13- Well, and part of the power of the App Store
0:26:15when it first launched, and part of the power it still has,
0:26:17is before the App Store, everything was just
0:26:20web-based and paying for things on the web sucked so much
0:26:23that it was just really hard to ever get someone
0:26:25to pay for something on the web because they would have
0:26:27to jump through all these hoops of entering
0:26:28their payment information and it was just this clunky
0:26:30process, most people would just say,
0:26:31ah, nevermind, they'd abandon it.
0:26:33Whereas with the App Store, they had the credit card
0:26:35already on file from the iTunes store and they could just
0:26:38type in a password and bam, it's bought.
0:26:40Now it's even easier with Touch ID.
0:26:42So part of the, we've seen already that if you make it
0:26:45easy to pay for it, people are more likely and more
0:26:48willing and happier to pay.
0:26:50Not everybody will, but more people will.
0:26:53So if they, you know, right now we have all these methods
0:26:55of making, of trying to use in-app purchase
0:26:57or swapping, you know, a new app for an old one
0:27:00to try to kind of simulate trials and upgrades,
0:27:03but they're all worse than the way it would probably be
0:27:06if Apple built those in as first-class citizens.
0:27:09So I think we would actually get more money.
0:27:12We would actually do better, and customers and developers
0:27:14would all be happier if Apple did these things
0:27:18because we could make more because it would be easier
0:27:21and it would work better.
0:27:23- Yeah, and ultimately I think customers,
0:27:24like ultimately, it seems like you can ultimately
0:27:28hopefully wind anything Apple-related
0:27:30back to customer sat, right?
0:27:33Like that is ultimately the thing that seems to drive
0:27:35a lot of other, the way Apple thinks.
0:27:38And customer satisfaction is something
0:27:41that you could see a lot, like improving the tools around
0:27:45the business models that are available to developers, improving. That if you create
0:27:51opportunities for a developer to make a good, stable living, their apps are going to be
0:27:57updated more regularly. It's sort of like you were saying, when new platforms come out,
0:28:01people will adopt them. That's only good for developers, that's only good for customers.
0:28:08And if it doesn't work, maybe they'd try all these things and in the end it wasn't the
0:28:12answer. I'm not completely convinced that adding paid upgrades would somehow dramatically
0:28:18and catastrophically improve things for a developer, sustainability. I think there's
0:28:23a good chance it would help things. Maybe it won't. But trying seems like a way that
0:28:30having never tried or just saying like, "Hmm, maybe that would work, maybe it won't. If
0:28:34it's not for sure, let's not do it." That's not helping anybody. And that's where I hope.
0:28:39feel as if whoever hears this or is sitting down, running up to W2DC and thinking about
0:28:45things he wants to change in iOS 10, hopefully these are things that they're thinking about.
0:28:50Thinking about ways that they can make things better for developers, better for customers,
0:28:54and ultimately, even in their own self-interest, make people have more affinity for their platform.
0:29:01Because there's an app for that.
0:29:04one of the marketing campaigns that I think really helped cement the iPhone as what it
0:29:09is today. And it's all about the apps in that campaign.
0:29:13Exactly. Well, I hope we see some improvements here. I really do. I'm hopeful that under
0:29:20new leadership, maybe we will. And I really am looking forward to seeing the results of
0:29:24that. So that's all the time we have for this week. Thank you very much for listening, and
0:29:29we'll talk to you next week. Bye.
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