Under the Radar

9: State of the Apple Watch


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS development.

00:00:04   I'm Marco Arment. And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes,

00:00:08   so let's get started. So today, I think what we

00:00:12   wanted to dive into and talk a bit about is the sort of state

00:00:16   of the Apple Watch as an app platform. And we're going to

00:00:20   talk a little bit about my own experience recently doing a lot of watchOS work.

00:00:24   Essentially the last quarter of 2015, all I did was

00:00:28   is work on watch apps.

00:00:29   A little bit of my experience there,

00:00:32   and then also kind of looking forward

00:00:34   to what we think could make the Apple Watch

00:00:37   a better platform than it is today

00:00:39   for apps and app developers.

00:00:40   My big app that I launched last year was Sleep++,

00:00:45   which is a watch app.

00:00:46   We're not gonna talk too much about it,

00:00:47   but it was all about the watch.

00:00:48   It's a sleep tracker, a motion tracker.

00:00:51   And then after I got that out the door,

00:00:53   I spent a lot of time working on Podometer++

00:00:55   Apple Watch, which was--

00:00:57   Pedometer++ is a step counter sort of fitness tracker

00:01:00   that had mostly been on the phones for a long time.

00:01:05   I had originally done a watchOS One app for it,

00:01:08   but it was very limited because at that time,

00:01:12   watchOS One apps entirely ran on the phone,

00:01:15   and so there was no way to get the watch's data actually

00:01:20   be displayed on the watch, which is a little bit weird.

00:01:22   So if you wore the watch all day long,

00:01:25   and then you start the watch app,

00:01:28   it would only be showing you data from your phone's

00:01:30   activity, which was weird.

00:01:32   WatchOS 2, I could finally fix that.

00:01:33   And so I spent what I thought would be a few weeks,

00:01:36   turned out to be a few months, getting the data sync

00:01:39   portion of that together so that the watch app now displays

00:01:42   this merged set of data between the watch and the phone.

00:01:47   And that took a lot longer than I think mostly because sync,

00:01:51   as I was always like, sync is hard.

00:01:53   There's a lot of really complicated things here,

00:01:55   and it's not even like regular user data sync

00:01:58   where there's some basic rules about it.

00:01:59   It's just like, I have to analyze your activity

00:02:04   through the day and work out what number to show

00:02:08   for your step count as you go through it.

00:02:09   But I got through all that and shipped the app

00:02:13   middle of December in 2015.

00:02:16   And one thing that I did that I was very glad I did

00:02:20   is I included a bunch of little analytics

00:02:22   about the watch app's use,

00:02:25   because I wanted to see how it's actually being used

00:02:30   in practice.

00:02:31   And initially when I launched,

00:02:34   it looked like something right around 11% of people

00:02:39   who were using Pedometer++ had Apple Watches.

00:02:43   - That's pretty good.

00:02:44   - Yeah, which is pretty good.

00:02:45   It's better than I thought it was.

00:02:46   I was expecting the number probably to be like four or five,

00:02:49   maybe. So 11 is pretty good. And after Christmas, it's now up to about 13.5% of Pedometer++

00:02:57   users have an Apple Watch paired. It's kind of interesting. It's building something

00:03:03   for a relatively narrow group of my users, but I think was still valuable to do. And

00:03:11   hopefully that percentage will grow over time. And of course it's funny, of the 13.5%

00:03:17   people who have watches, something like 80% of them have the watch app installed, and

00:03:22   then 20% of them are using the complication, which is probably the most—like, from my

00:03:27   perspective, the coolest part of the app was the complication, so you can see your step

00:03:31   counts grow, but only 20% of people who have watches use it, which is something like 2%

00:03:37   overall. So that's a bit mixed, but that's sort of the way these things go, I think.

00:03:43   - Yeah, that part is interesting.

00:03:45   I mean, we could talk about how do you decide

00:03:49   whether to do a feature like this

00:03:52   that's gonna require tons and tons of work,

00:03:55   'cause you're really building this whole thing from scratch,

00:03:57   really, on this different platform and everything,

00:03:59   and then it ends up that 2% of your user base

00:04:02   will ever use it.

00:04:03   Is that worth doing, or when is it worth doing?

00:04:08   - Yeah, so I've definitely gone through several phases

00:04:11   with this, where when I first saw that number, I was crying inside. It took so much time.

00:04:19   I love it. I use it all the time. I think it's a great feature. In some ways, I can

00:04:26   remind myself that if it's a feature that I personally use and it takes some time to

00:04:30   build, at least I'll use it. I'll enjoy it. And these things will get better over time.

00:04:36   But if I'd known that number up front, I'm not sure it would have been as easy to justify

00:04:43   development on this.

00:04:46   Because overall, I wouldn't say adding watch support to the app has had a significant impact

00:04:51   in its sales.

00:04:53   There's a very small bump in sales when I release the update, just as you normally get

00:04:58   from little press outlets picking it up, or it's slightly noteworthy.

00:05:05   But beyond that, the app wasn't featured, which kind of surprised me.

00:05:08   Which is a weird thing to say.

00:05:09   I don't want to be like, "Oh, they should have featured me."

00:05:11   But because, as far as I can tell, so little work is being done in terms of new apps on

00:05:16   the watch, I was kind of more hopeful than I would normally get my hopes up for, for

00:05:20   getting featured, and that didn't happen.

00:05:21   So from a sales perspective, it didn't really add too much.

00:05:27   And so when I look at it, it's like, I'm glad I did it, but mostly not for right now.

00:05:33   I think it's more important as a keeping the app relevant, keeping the app current, and

00:05:42   not creating a big gap between where the state of the art would be and where the app is.

00:05:50   That's a good and important thing, because Pedometer++ is my biggest earning app, and

00:05:55   so it's important to me that it's well taken care of.

00:05:59   But the actual details, and when you see things, it's like, yeah, a pretty small percentage

00:06:02   of people are actually using it, it's a hard thing to say.

00:06:06   - That's interesting, I mean, and I wonder how much of it

00:06:09   is, like, even being featured and having this kind of,

00:06:12   like, you know, any kind of app store prominence,

00:06:16   I wonder what the value of being featured really is

00:06:18   for watch apps, because not only, of course,

00:06:21   do fewer people have Apple Watches,

00:06:23   which would be a separate issue, but even as somebody

00:06:26   who's used an Apple Watch for like, you know,

00:06:30   seven or eight months or however long it's been,

00:06:33   I never browse the App Store for new watch apps.

00:06:36   And I wonder, just the pattern of using the watch

00:06:39   and being a watch owner, how often do you go

00:06:42   browsing the App Store for new watch apps,

00:06:44   compared to how often you go for the phone.

00:06:46   Like in the phone, you launch the App Store app,

00:06:48   and if you're kinda bored or looking for new stuff,

00:06:50   you launch the App Store, you browse around,

00:06:51   you see what's featured, you see the top lists.

00:06:54   On the watch, I mean, as an Apple Watch user,

00:06:57   How often do you open the watch app store, if ever?

00:07:01   Is there, I mean, I guess you launched a companion app

00:07:04   and you can go in there and browse the apps there,

00:07:06   but does anybody actually do that?

00:07:08   - I don't know.

00:07:09   Like, it's, it's like people are definitely finding

00:07:13   the apps somewhere, 'cause like,

00:07:14   Sleepless Plus is only a watch app.

00:07:16   Like, without an Apple Watch, it's completely useless.

00:07:19   And it's had a pretty strong uptick

00:07:22   in terms of people finding it.

00:07:23   So I don't know exactly where they're finding it from.

00:07:25   I don't know if it's word of mouth,

00:07:27   if it's just people finding it online or whatever,

00:07:32   but they're definitely finding it somewhere.

00:07:33   Mostly, when I go into the companion app

00:07:36   and it has the two tabs where I think you can search

00:07:38   and there's a featured area there,

00:07:41   I go in there mostly just to kind of see

00:07:44   if there's anything new and interesting,

00:07:46   but not as much for myself.

00:07:48   And there is certainly some aspect to it

00:07:50   that the nature of the watch and the way

00:07:52   that it's kind of more of a glancing interaction model

00:07:56   you're not going to be just sitting down and if you're bored browsing around on things

00:08:02   or with your phone, if you're bored, you have some time, you're on a train or something,

00:08:06   you're going to spend a lot of time, you could quite easily be like, "Oh, let me go see if

00:08:09   there's a new game," or something new and interesting to go, or look on the internet

00:08:13   and read Reddit or RSS or Twitter or Slack or whatever it is.

00:08:18   Whereas on the watch, once you have your use case that you are comfortable with, whatever

00:08:24   it's doing. And so for this case, it's like, unless you're really looking to, "How

00:08:29   could I make my watch a better fitness tracker for me beyond the built-in activity app,"

00:08:35   for example, I don't know if you're really going to go looking for that in the same way,

00:08:40   because there's no app store on the watch itself. There's no little watch icon that

00:08:44   you go to the Honeycomb screen and then hit app store and it shows you a bunch of apps.

00:08:49   I think it's probably for the best. I'm not sure if that would actually be a good

00:08:52   interaction but with the lack of that like I don't know how you would find

00:08:57   good watch apps other than just going to the companion app which is a really odd

00:09:01   place to go anyway because it's not part of the App Store like in some ways it

00:09:06   seems like it should be in the App Store like you could replace that middle was

00:09:11   it the what's it now the explore tab the one that's changed like 10 times it's

00:09:15   like if if you have a watch it should be like maybe that should be like you know

00:09:19   a watch or tvOS or all these other secondary platforms that are harder to find apps for.

00:09:27   Maybe it should be fine there.

00:09:28   But yeah, I don't know.

00:09:30   It's a weird thing to think how people actually find watch apps these days.

00:09:34   I really don't know.

00:09:36   I mean, to some degree, the value of having a watch app is political with Apple in the

00:09:41   sense that Apple is more likely to promote apps that take better advantage of all their

00:09:46   platforms and all their features.

00:09:48   So Apple is probably happier to promote an iOS app

00:09:52   that has a nice companion watch app

00:09:55   than they would be to promote a similar iOS app

00:09:57   that has no watch app.

00:09:59   And so in some ways, the reason to have a watch app

00:10:03   and to take advantage of new watch features

00:10:06   is to increase the likelihood of Apple

00:10:08   featuring your iPhone app.

00:10:09   (laughs)

00:10:11   But that doesn't really help you

00:10:13   if you're trying to figure out how much time

00:10:16   to put into your Apple Watch app

00:10:17   and how to make it more useful.

00:10:20   And I wonder, I mean, I was kind of expecting,

00:10:22   you mentioned that the percentage of pedometer++ users

00:10:26   with the Apple Watch before and after Christmas

00:10:29   did increase, but it didn't increase

00:10:31   as much as I would've expected.

00:10:32   You said it went from like 11 to about 13%, is that right?

00:10:34   - Yeah, it went up 2 1/2% from 11 to 13 1/2.

00:10:37   - Yeah, so that, I would've expected

00:10:40   a bigger jump from that, honestly.

00:10:42   And I've heard from a few people here and there,

00:10:45   I've picked up a few other little tidbits of app sales

00:10:49   for watch people, and almost all of them

00:10:51   reportedly noticeable jump on Christmas Day

00:10:54   and the day after, compared to what it was previously.

00:10:57   So I think it's clear that there are a lot of watches

00:10:59   out there, and that there are a lot that were given

00:11:02   as gifts for Christmas this year.

00:11:03   But I would have expected the jump to be bigger.

00:11:07   And so in terms of absolute numbers here,

00:11:11   I mean obviously nothing's gonna be as big

00:11:13   the iPhone install base on day one, or even in year one, or even in year five for that

00:11:17   matter. But I wonder, are there enough watch owners out there to make this worth doing

00:11:25   yet?

00:11:26   Maybe the best thing to answer to that is I can't think of anyone who I'm aware of who

00:11:32   has had a runaway success on the watch. With most of the new platforms, I mean, we have

00:11:38   a little bit of this problem on the TV as well, but with the iPhone and certainly with

00:11:43   the iPad. There were stories of people who put a lot of time and effort, really made

00:11:48   a good app, and there was enough uptick on the customer side and a strong enough financial

00:11:55   part of that, that it was like, "Wow, they have the overnight success." And I'm not aware

00:12:01   of that on the watch at this point. So I think it's a good thing to do in terms of if you

00:12:08   want to build a fully featured robust, fully rounded app, part of that bar now probably

00:12:16   includes a watch app. But I'm not sure if there's a strong direct incentive for it,

00:12:22   that if you build a watch app, your app will be more successful. It's a bit more soft than

00:12:29   that. And if anything, honestly, for me, part of why I got into watch apps is it was an

00:12:35   area that I think is growing, I don't think it has grown yet. And so part of me was like,

00:12:42   I just want to be an expert at this platform that I think in two or three years, which

00:12:49   is a bit of a long game to be playing, but like in several years will be more increasingly

00:12:55   relevant. I'd rather be an expert on it. Like the only way you can have, you know, five

00:13:01   years experience in five years is to have started now. And I didn't want to

00:13:05   describe it so like you know it's the old joke when you people who want like

00:13:08   eight years Swift experience now or something like it's like well you can't

00:13:12   really do that but if you start on day one at the very least you can have as

00:13:16   most than the most that you can and so like since watch OS or watch kit back

00:13:20   then watch kit one was out like it's just something that I think is important

00:13:25   from my fur like I think that I enjoy and it's an important for my business

00:13:28   down the road to continue to be good at.

00:13:31   But in the, like in the here and now,

00:13:34   it's a much squishier, like, it's like maybe it's good,

00:13:37   maybe it'll increase slightly the chance

00:13:39   that someone will download it or that Apple will feature it

00:13:43   or something like that, but it's not a direct,

00:13:47   like, cause and effect, like this will help make your app

00:13:49   more successful, I think, at this point anyway.

00:13:52   - I think though it is, you know,

00:13:53   making it more likely that Apple will feature it,

00:13:56   And I think it also plays into,

00:13:59   like for the chance of your iOS app succeeding,

00:14:00   it also plays into like,

00:14:02   first of all, the people who have watches,

00:14:04   even though it's a small percentage of iPhone users,

00:14:07   it's not a random percentage, it isn't a random subset.

00:14:09   It is like, it is kind of like the early adopters,

00:14:14   the people who are willing to spend,

00:14:15   who wouldn't spend more money probably,

00:14:16   and able to spend more money.

00:14:17   So like, it is a market that I think is,

00:14:21   has outsized relevance compared to its actual numbers.

00:14:24   And also, it can be used as a feature comparison.

00:14:29   So like, if I'm looking at two different

00:14:30   pedometer apps in the app store,

00:14:31   and I have an Apple Watch,

00:14:33   and one of them has a Watch app and one doesn't,

00:14:36   then even if I don't intend to use that Watch app,

00:14:39   or even if I think I'll use it,

00:14:40   and in reality never would,

00:14:41   and therefore wouldn't show up in those numbers,

00:14:43   I think I'm more likely to pick the one with the Watch app

00:14:46   because, you know, it's like people who buy

00:14:50   like a giant SUV because they might

00:14:52   someday go off-road with it.

00:14:54   And even if they never do, which most never do,

00:14:57   that is a selling point to them up front,

00:14:59   where they might choose, so people might choose your app

00:15:03   even if they have no plans to ever use the watch app.

00:15:07   They might choose your app simply because it has a watch app

00:15:09   over someone else's that doesn't.

00:15:11   So there is more value to it, I think,

00:15:14   up front for an iOS app, but that argument becomes

00:15:17   less relevant when you're talking about apps that run only

00:15:20   or primarily on the watch, like Sleep++,

00:15:22   like apps where the iPhone app is basically non-existent

00:15:26   or unimportant.

00:15:27   I think it's hard to argue today

00:15:32   for spending a ton of time with a watch app.

00:15:33   It's easy to argue for having a watch app

00:15:37   for your existing iOS app if it's relevant to have one,

00:15:42   but it's harder to argue for spending

00:15:44   a whole lot of time on it.

00:15:45   Does that make sense?

00:15:47   - Yeah, I think so.

00:15:48   And it's also probably keeping in mind

00:15:50   that a really good watch app is by its nature very simple.

00:15:55   And so on the, like one thing that if it's like,

00:16:02   it's important to make sure that you don't think

00:16:04   of a watch app as a fully fledged,

00:16:07   like really complicated, sophisticated thing.

00:16:09   Like it's for it to do well,

00:16:11   it should really only probably have like one or two actions

00:16:15   that you can take or like what, like sleep plus plus,

00:16:18   for example, has one button in the entire app, and that's it.

00:16:23   And I think that works well for it, because all it does is you say, "I'm going to sleep.

00:16:27   I'm waking up from sleep."

00:16:28   And it's just a toggle button on and off.

00:16:31   And pedometer++ is the only—from an action perspective, it's the same thing.

00:16:36   You can say, "I'm going for a walk," and it'll start a workout where it tracks your

00:16:40   heart rate and all kinds of other stuff, and then you get to the end of your workout and

00:16:43   you hit stop.

00:16:45   And so it's nice in that sense of having a basic watch app is a good thing, rather than

00:16:51   being a detriment, it's actually probably a plus.

00:16:54   And so trying to hit that basic level is easier than it would be if you compared it to having

00:17:01   an iPad app, making your app universal.

00:17:05   Having an iPad app that is useful and fits on the platform is probably a lot more work

00:17:11   than a watch app.

00:17:12   So if you're looking for something to like

00:17:14   extend out your app a little bit,

00:17:15   like you've got that basic feature set locked down

00:17:17   and you're like, oh, how could I make,

00:17:20   like add that little like 5% boost?

00:17:22   Like you might be easier to add it on the watch

00:17:24   than it would be to like go to the iPad

00:17:27   or a platform like that,

00:17:28   that it just would require a lot more of you.

00:17:31   - Yeah.

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00:19:23   So I wanted to spend the second half of this now, you know we talked in the first half

00:19:27   about the Apple Watch, kind of the reality of being an Apple Watch developer today from

00:19:33   your perspective, and you really are one of the world's most prominent Apple Watch developers,

00:19:38   honestly. The Apple Watch today, I think we've figured out, is not a great app development

00:19:45   platform yet. What do you think could make it a great app development platform?

00:19:51   There's two aspects to that. There's the hardware side and the software side. And on the hardware

00:19:57   side, obviously the watch will get better and better and better, and the more it gets

00:20:02   better, the more capable it will be. There will be more things that it will be able to

00:20:08   do. Because as it is right now, the watch is pretty slow, it doesn't have a lot of memory.

00:20:15   As a result, some of the way the apps are structured has to be kind of funny and different

00:20:19   than what you might like. And those types of things will just come. And when I look

00:20:25   at those, I'm less worried about the choices Apple will make there. Because I imagine,

00:20:30   by Moore's law and their history.

00:20:33   It'll keep getting faster, better,

00:20:36   have longer battery life.

00:20:37   Battery life is a big one, I think, for me,

00:20:40   'cause one of the hardest things I have for C++

00:20:43   is telling people, oh, you wear it overnight

00:20:46   so you don't charge it overnight.

00:20:48   Things like that are way much easier sells

00:20:50   if the watch had, I don't even know, a week's battery,

00:20:54   just to be able to run all the time or things like that.

00:20:56   and hopefully over time also,

00:20:59   as the hardware gets better and it's more compelling

00:21:01   and it's been out for longer,

00:21:02   there'll be a bigger, more people with it,

00:21:05   and that's a helpful thing from a marketing perspective.

00:21:09   But I think the biggest and more interesting things

00:21:11   are assuming that basic level of the hardware each year

00:21:15   will get better.

00:21:16   And the Apple Watch that we have now

00:21:21   is fairly old in so far as they announced it,

00:21:25   what is it, September of 2014?

00:21:29   - Yeah, it's like a year and change old already.

00:21:32   - Yeah, because obviously it didn't ship

00:21:34   until April 2015, but the hardware,

00:21:38   from at least what they were showing

00:21:40   and what its feature set was and how capable it was,

00:21:43   was locked down way back then.

00:21:46   And so I'm hopeful the next one, which who knows,

00:21:49   maybe it'll come out in the spring,

00:21:51   I think seems to be where the most,

00:21:53   sort of the best, even the best money right now would be like sometime in spring there'll

00:21:56   be a new one. Like, it could have a larger than like a one-year performance gain. So

00:22:02   like, assuming those, like that'd be great. I really hope that we see a lot of changes

00:22:08   around just making it more capable, which is a weird thing to say, but like, things

00:22:12   like complications, for example, which I think are, are like the watch face in general. Like,

00:22:17   Most in my own personal use, almost all of my use happens on that watch face.

00:22:24   I would love to see that just get better and better and better.

00:22:28   The way it's structured now is very much designed around battery life.

00:22:33   The watch face is only visible when you flip your wrist up, for example, which is frustrating

00:22:40   sometimes.

00:22:41   Obviously I know you can't have it on all the time, but even having something there

00:22:45   more persistently or being able to be more aggressive about lighting up the screen. Things

00:22:50   like that could be really helpful. And as a result, complications don't update very

00:22:55   frequently, which I think from my own tests, you can update a complication at most maybe

00:23:01   about 40 times a day.

00:23:05   That's interesting.

00:23:06   Like, for pedometers, I note that the most because the data is real time, so every time

00:23:15   you take a step, your step count goes up by one, but I can only update the complication,

00:23:20   whatever, like 40-ish times a day, maybe about every half hour, say. And I'd love to see that

00:23:27   get better, to be more frequent, to be more semi-real time. Obviously, there's timing things.

00:23:34   Part of why Apple has the complications structured such that you send data and it's baked in for a

00:23:41   particular period of time is so that it's instantaneous when you raise your wrist, the

00:23:45   data's already there, rather than like raising your wrist and then loading the data. Like

00:23:50   that's fair enough, but making that much more frequent.

00:23:54   And that's kind of how like the entire watchOS has kind of developed that way. It kind of

00:23:59   feels like the old Mac OS X dashboard, where like everything is kind of in the state of

00:24:04   suspended animation until you go and look at it, at which point you see old data, and

00:24:09   And then a few seconds later, new data flashes in.

00:24:14   Or you go in and you see nothing, and then a few seconds later, new data.

00:24:17   So it's like, either way, I don't love that as a user or a developer, and I recognize

00:24:21   why they have to do it, because it does save a whole lot of power, and this is really a

00:24:26   very power and especially CPU constrained device and memory, so they can't keep all

00:24:34   this stuff in memory, they can't keep refreshing it constantly.

00:24:38   But over time, I hope they can with hardware improvements because the idea of having to

00:24:45   go to a glance and then wait a second or two for it to update and then seeing new stuff

00:24:49   pop in, it's clunky.

00:24:51   And it's better than nothing.

00:24:53   So if that's what they had to do to get this product out the door this year with today's

00:24:56   technology, that's great.

00:24:58   I'd rather have it than not have it.

00:25:00   But it is really clunky.

00:25:02   And so once it becomes possible to have basically real-time updates and to have things always

00:25:08   be running and being updated on a much more frequent basis, I hope they choose to take

00:25:15   advantage of that and to allow that rather than to just kind of bank the power savings

00:25:21   and keep making this thing thinner, or something like that.

00:25:25   Because it would totally transform the usefulness of apps and using apps on this platform if

00:25:31   if we could have things be refreshed more frequently and have things be more real-time.

00:25:35   >>

00:25:38   And there's certainly a limit to it. In the positive way that I think Apple could probably

00:25:40   get there is, there's obviously, it doesn't have to be like, update every 30 seconds.

00:25:46   There's probably some functional limit that below which, like, once they're, if they can

00:25:50   get, rather than being updated every 30 minutes, if I could update every, I don't know, five

00:25:56   minutes, three minutes. At a certain point, it's good enough, and that kind of an improvement

00:26:02   makes me more hopeful that we'll get there, because the battery life improvement that

00:26:08   you would imagine you'd have to have to compress it just that much is more likely than if it

00:26:17   was something where you have a constantly running socket connection from your watch,

00:26:22   is probably not realistic,

00:26:25   but hopefully we can get something like that.

00:26:27   And then also I just hope that we can do so much,

00:26:31   I can't wait that we can do custom watch faces

00:26:34   is something that I would love to see as well.

00:26:37   - See that, I would love custom watch faces,

00:26:39   but I'm not sure they'll ever actually offer it.

00:26:41   That is not a given that Apple will ever allow that,

00:26:45   but I would love that.

00:26:47   That would get me very interested in watch development

00:26:50   if I could make my own face for it. And right now, all the faces and all the complications,

00:26:56   they all have pretty annoying limitations and pretty big limitations or shortcomings

00:27:01   in my opinion or just differences of opinion of how I would do things. And it's kind

00:27:06   of a baseline level of frustration I have with the watch.

00:27:10   Third party faces, I think, are a really big challenge for Apple to enable in a way that

00:27:15   is compatible with power goals and everything else, and security goals and just branding

00:27:22   and consistency goals. It is challenging for them to offer that, but I think the benefits

00:27:27   of offering that would transform the watch as a platform so much that I think that's

00:27:32   a challenge they should undertake, and I think that's a line they should cross. Whether they

00:27:36   will is a very different story, and honestly, I'm not that hopeful.

00:27:39   Sure, I mean even if it was like like it's part of me is like if we don't get custom watch faces at least I want

00:27:44   like

00:27:45   more

00:27:47   like if

00:27:48   Apple wants to make all of them then they need to make more than they have now in terms of like the only one that

00:27:53   Like you have the modular face, which is like it's like the kits like the Swiss Army knife

00:27:58   Face, but what if I want something like sort of in between that like I think for me

00:28:04   What I would love is a watch face. That was big time on

00:28:08   for like two thirds of the display,

00:28:11   and then the three modular complications on the bottom.

00:28:14   Like I think for me that's what I would love,

00:28:16   but such a thing doesn't exist.

00:28:18   Like the time is always the small thing

00:28:20   in the top right corner, and like,

00:28:22   so if they don't give them to us as custom developers,

00:28:24   at least they could give us thousands more,

00:28:26   and dozens more, and then I think I'd be a lot happier.

00:28:29   - Yeah, but see there's always, it's like the 80% problem,

00:28:32   there's always gonna be something about

00:28:34   whatever they offer us in the built-in faces

00:28:36   that isn't what we would actually want,

00:28:38   and they're going to be blind to certain things or there's

00:28:41   going to be things they would never do that there is a strong

00:28:44   market for that. If a third party developer did it, it

00:28:48   could really, you know, expand the platform and make it more

00:28:50   useful for people and and reach into new ideas and new markets

00:28:53   that Apple didn't or wouldn't consider. And I think third

00:28:57   party watch faces are like that is the software unicorn for me

00:29:01   on this platform. Like I don't know if Apple will ever do it.

00:29:04   As I said, I would bet against it honestly, but if they ever

00:29:08   do, I'd be very excited about that.

00:29:10   >> And I think that's a good place to stop, but I think we'll see.

00:29:14   Hopefully in the next couple weeks or a couple months we'll have some more information from

00:29:17   Apple on this and then hopefully we'll be pleasantly surprised.

00:29:20   >> Yeah, this is a product that I really look forward to wherever it is two to five years

00:29:25   from now.

00:29:27   And I hope in the meantime we can get some good use out of it as well.

00:29:31   So thanks a lot to our sponsor Igloo.

00:29:32   Thanks to everyone for listening, and we will talk to you next week.

00:29:36   [BLANK_AUDIO]