Under the Radar

8: Vacation


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS development.

00:00:03   I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:04   And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06   Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10   So today, somewhat tied into the time of year it is, we wanted to do an episode that was

00:00:15   a bit more like the ergonomics episode that we talked about a couple of weeks back, and

00:00:22   talk to us about something that's a bit less technical and a bit more about taking care

00:00:28   of ourselves and making sure that we're doing things that will help us to do our best work.

00:00:33   And to that end, I think today we're going to talk a little bit about rest, about vacation,

00:00:36   as well as a few other details about what it's like to be on vacation and the things

00:00:40   we have to do to make that work. But I know it's something that, over the course of my

00:00:44   career, I have been thankfully, I think, getting better at, but it took a long time to get

00:00:50   to a point where I could look at my work and say, "It's okay for me to rest. It's okay

00:00:55   for me to take breaks, it's for me to take vacation. Because when I used to work for

00:01:00   like a regular 9-to-5 job, I had vacation every year that I had to take or I'd lose,

00:01:05   and it was a certain measured amount, like I get two weeks of vacation a year, and I

00:01:09   would take it. Whereas once you're self-employed, once you're working for yourself, you have

00:01:16   to impose that on yourself. And for a couple of years, I really didn't do a great job

00:01:20   of that. It was really not good. And I would just kind of work and work. In some ways,

00:01:26   I'd get into a cycle where I'd work as hard as I could, and then at some point,

00:01:29   you kind of more sort of burn out, and then kind of have to be forced to take a break.

00:01:34   And that was not a great pattern. And so it's something that I've had to learn for myself

00:01:39   about the importance of and understand that in order for me to really work well, I need

00:01:44   to make sure that I'm well rested, that I'm taking care of myself. And that's just

00:01:49   something that I think we all have to learn is,

00:01:51   have you gone down that path of getting burned out before?

00:01:54   - I'm kind of getting burned out now.

00:01:56   (laughs)

00:01:57   - There we go, it's timely.

00:01:58   - Yeah, I mean, I've gone down that path

00:02:01   here and there before.

00:02:03   It's rarely on my own work.

00:02:05   I was more like during the Tumblr times,

00:02:08   you know, when I was there for four years,

00:02:11   because it was growing so quickly and so aggressively,

00:02:15   and because we were basically always in over our heads

00:02:18   during those first four years.

00:02:21   And we had no idea like how to scale the site next,

00:02:24   how to keep it running, what are we gonna do

00:02:26   when we have 20% more users next month?

00:02:29   Like that's, how do we scale to that?

00:02:31   And how do we match that?

00:02:32   How do we keep it all going?

00:02:33   That was incredibly stressful.

00:02:35   And so I was getting burnt out quite badly on that.

00:02:39   And I kept going 'cause I didn't really have much

00:02:41   of a choice for most of that time until towards the end

00:02:44   when we finally got a bigger staff.

00:02:46   but really in those first few years,

00:02:50   I kept going past the point of healthy burnout levels

00:02:55   because I really didn't have a choice.

00:02:57   There were only two of us there

00:02:58   and we both were necessary all the time.

00:03:01   So it made it hard to do things like take vacations

00:03:05   because I would have to remain connected

00:03:09   at all or most times.

00:03:12   And the times that I would be somewhere

00:03:13   without an internet connection,

00:03:16   I would always be thinking about. I hope the site's okay. What if it's not? What if

00:03:23   it's down now and next time I can get an interconnection it's 12 hours from now and

00:03:28   I just have no idea? And it really didn't help that occasionally that did really happen.

00:03:35   And so it was a problem every so often where David and I would both have been disconnected

00:03:41   through coincidence like during a certain vacation day or something and the site would

00:03:45   just you know have some problem, crash, go down, be overloaded, something would go wrong

00:03:50   and it would just be down for like multiple hours and sometimes one of us would know about

00:03:56   it usually but sometimes neither of us would even know for like an hour and then the monitoring

00:04:02   system would finally reach one of us or somebody would reach it or like you know Rackspace

00:04:06   would notice and try to call David or me or something. It was always this giant source

00:04:12   of kind of this constant underlying stress because when you're running web services,

00:04:15   which I'll get to, you're kind of always on call or somebody is always on call and

00:04:20   you can make different decisions that reduce the likelihood that something will go wrong

00:04:26   or you can design or choose things in such a way that you are not the one who's on

00:04:29   call, but all these things have trade-offs of course. But running a web service combined

00:04:36   with vacation is difficult I think to manage that the obligation level, the stress level,

00:04:42   the burnout level, because you kind of always have to be on and responsible for it to some

00:04:49   degree. And when you don't have an app that requires a web service, you still have stuff

00:04:55   like support email that like someone has to be taking care of this probably unless you're

00:05:01   mean you just ignore it but you know for everyone else in the world someone has to be answering

00:05:05   support email somebody has to be dealing with like you know if you don't if you sell outside

00:05:09   of an app store and so you sell direct somehow if there's like purchase support like if

00:05:15   somebody gives you money and doesn't get a serial number or something like that's

00:05:18   really important like you can't just ignore those you know it's like there's any kind

00:05:22   of software business, there's probably something where you kind of have to be on call on a

00:05:28   regular basis almost all the time or be able to put someone else in that role to cover

00:05:34   for you while you're gone. And a lot of people don't or can't have a backup person

00:05:38   like that. They can't have anyone else cover it or they don't have someone else covering

00:05:41   it and so they kind of never get to turn themselves off and take a break fully and that can very

00:05:47   easily lead to burnout. But a lot of times, like when I did the Tumblr, you just kind

00:05:50   kind of work through it because it doesn't seem like you have any alternative at the

00:05:54   moment.

00:05:55   Yeah, because the thing that I think I've come to realize or kind of understand about

00:06:00   this is one of the most important things in general, both in terms of if you're working

00:06:05   for yourself or you're working for someone else, is understanding sort of like what's

00:06:08   for sale, personally. I mean, because there's always going to be some more. There's always

00:06:14   going to be more things that you could do, that you think you should do, that you think

00:06:17   might benefit your business, might benefit your career,

00:06:21   there's always gonna be more things to do.

00:06:22   And at a certain point, though, you have to understand

00:06:24   that there's a limited, everything's coming at a trade-off.

00:06:28   It's like your life is very, it's finite.

00:06:31   It's not like you can magically add more time, more energy,

00:06:35   more attention to your day.

00:06:36   And so you have to decide, well, what's for sale?

00:06:38   What am I going to be putting into my career, into my work,

00:06:42   that I'm taking, sort of necessarily taking away

00:06:45   from other things, whether that be

00:06:47   family or relationships or your health or all kinds of other areas. And understanding

00:06:53   that the things you're describing are definitely true. There are definitely things that would

00:06:59   be bad if went wrong. So I run a variety of web services too. I have all kinds of things

00:07:05   like that, lots of apps with lots of users. And the thing that I've had to work through

00:07:11   though is how much of my constant cognitive load is for sale. How much of that can I really

00:07:19   say, "Okay, I understand that if I miss something, if something goes wrong and goes down, that

00:07:25   may impact me negatively in some tangible way, but is that worth it?" The worst things—and

00:07:31   this is where I've run into burnout the most—are the instances when, like, if I'm kind of

00:07:37   relentlessly working without it being a time-bound thing or without it being a conscious choice.

00:07:44   When I launched Feed Wrangler about three years ago, I remember that there was a period

00:07:47   when I was scaling it up that it was just on fire constantly. It was just sort of this

00:07:54   thing where we decided, "You know what? I'm just going to try and make this work. I think

00:07:58   this is a good opportunity for our business. I'm just going to run with it." And so for

00:08:02   probably about a month, about two months maybe.

00:08:05   I was just constantly,

00:08:06   I'd be working crazy hours during the day

00:08:08   and then waking up at two in the morning

00:08:10   to roll out all the changes that I did during that day.

00:08:13   And it was this really not good cycle.

00:08:16   And ultimately it became a point where it's like,

00:08:18   no, this is not gonna work, I don't like this.

00:08:21   And we ended up deciding, well, what I'm gonna do

00:08:23   is I'm just gonna throw money at the problem.

00:08:24   And I ended up just massively over provisioning everything

00:08:27   and deciding that I'd rather make less money

00:08:30   from the service than to feel that way.

00:08:34   The important thing there was the understanding

00:08:36   of that it was always a choice.

00:08:37   It didn't feel, taking ownership of it to the degree

00:08:41   that if I let it just be its own thing,

00:08:44   then that was where the problem came.

00:08:46   That if I was just letting it feeling like

00:08:47   these responsibilities were being pushed onto me,

00:08:50   and that was where I really started to struggle.

00:08:53   - Yeah, I mean, and that's a very good thing to realize,

00:08:56   is this is at least partially within everyone's control.

00:09:00   how much responsibility they take on,

00:09:02   what kind of guarantees that you make to the world.

00:09:05   And the world will impose its own opinions

00:09:08   of what it deserves from you,

00:09:09   what kind of lifetime it deserves from you,

00:09:11   and what kind of response time to emails and stuff like that.

00:09:13   But it is on you to accept or reject that.

00:09:18   And within certain bounds,

00:09:22   if you're on a web service and you just shut down

00:09:25   for three hours a night

00:09:26   because you don't wanna have to worry about it

00:09:28   during those three hours a night,

00:09:29   that will eventually become problematic for you

00:09:31   because that's just not what people expect

00:09:32   from web services.

00:09:33   But if you were like a small software shop

00:09:36   and you don't answer a support email for two days,

00:09:39   is that really the end of the world?

00:09:40   Probably not, unless somebody literally just gave you money

00:09:43   and it went nowhere, then they'd be angry about that.

00:09:46   But if they just wanna know how to use some feature,

00:09:48   that can wait two days.

00:09:49   There are bounds to what people consider

00:09:51   the minimum acceptability,

00:09:53   but going anything above and beyond that,

00:09:55   you said you're kind of responsible

00:09:57   for how much you go above that.

00:09:59   and usually it's not worth it.

00:10:00   Like going back to the web service example,

00:10:02   like if you're running a web service,

00:10:04   sometimes you might have downtime that is your fault.

00:10:06   You know, you didn't get enough capacity

00:10:08   or there's a bug or you know, your MySQL server

00:10:10   is overloaded with some stupid query you wrote

00:10:13   that you need to optimize better or something like that.

00:10:15   Those are all your fault.

00:10:17   But what if the data center that you're in,

00:10:19   that you know, like suppose you're at a regular

00:10:21   like dedicated host, so the data center you're in,

00:10:24   you know, you're relying on their switches

00:10:26   and their infrastructure and their connectivity

00:10:28   and stuff like that, and if they just have

00:10:30   a big network failure on their side,

00:10:32   there is nothing you can do about that at all.

00:10:34   That is totally out of your control,

00:10:36   it's out of your hands, it is your problem,

00:10:38   but it's not your fault, and there's basically

00:10:41   nothing you can do except wait and make sure

00:10:44   they know about it and then just wait for them to fix it.

00:10:46   You will always hear from people when that happens,

00:10:49   at least if you have a nerdy audience like I do,

00:10:51   you will always hear from people who are like,

00:10:53   well, you should have had this in multiple data centers,

00:10:55   or you should have had more redundancy,

00:10:58   you should have had a bigger system, you should have been prepared for this possible problem

00:11:02   to happen to your web service in order to save me this hour of downtime or whatever.

00:11:09   No matter what level you choose to have redundancy and resilience and everything, there's always

00:11:14   another level you could be doing and there's always some failure that could happen that

00:11:18   could take out your whole system. To go beyond to each successive level of additional redundancy,

00:11:24   additional resilience, it is so costly and so complicated to go each level up, it just

00:11:32   isn't worth it for most people. Like, you know, Overcast runs out of one data center

00:11:37   and it's fine. I'm on one host, everything is in the same data center. If Linode has

00:11:42   a switch problem that day, which occasionally has happened, you know, then I have issues

00:11:48   with Overcast for a half hour and then they end and then it's fine. It's easy as programmers

00:11:55   like us and as people who are in the moment, like, I was so stressed out at Tumblr because

00:12:00   I knew that if I screwed up and if the site started serving error pages, it would serve

00:12:06   11,000 error pages per second until I fixed it.

00:12:10   That's a lot.

00:12:12   Yeah, and to have that burden on you psychologically is tough to handle. That's, you know, that's

00:12:17   Like you feel really, you feel guilt about that.

00:12:19   And not to mention that, you know,

00:12:21   if you have like a Twitter account or something,

00:12:22   you're gonna have like everybody yelling at you on Twitter,

00:12:24   when's it gonna be back up?

00:12:26   This is terrible, you're stupid.

00:12:27   But the reality is, at that moment,

00:12:29   it seems like a really big deal.

00:12:31   As soon as the site's back up, everybody forgets.

00:12:34   Like it just, like the big problem that there was

00:12:38   is just gone and also very quickly forgotten.

00:12:42   Like I always think of the example,

00:12:43   like back when, you know, in Tumblr's early days,

00:12:46   there was once a weekend where Flickr, the big image service Flickr, was down for an

00:12:52   entire weekend. Completely down. At the time it was probably the biggest photo site on

00:12:57   the internet, completely down for two and a half days. Do you remember that?

00:13:03   No.

00:13:04   Right, exactly! Nobody remembers that. That was a huge deal. I'm sure if you were a Flickr

00:13:09   engineer working on that problem, you would definitely remember that, but nobody else

00:13:14   remembers it. Even later that same week nobody remembered it. That was like this massive

00:13:20   downtime event. And so you know you do it's always a balance you have to strike. You know

00:13:25   it seems like you need to prepare for every eventuality. It's kind of like packing for

00:13:30   a trip. So go back to the vacation theme. It's kind of like packing for a trip. Like

00:13:34   it's easy to overpack because you think well what if I what if the batteries in this

00:13:38   thing die twice. So I need like, now I need like six AA batteries to pack in my bag whenever

00:13:45   I go just in case the batteries die. Even though not only will the batteries probably

00:13:50   not die, but the place you're going probably sells AA batteries. It's so easy to get

00:13:54   caught up in the what ifs, what ifs, what ifs, and the stress about them. And then even

00:14:00   when they do happen, it's easy to overblow in your head like how bad that was and how

00:14:07   how much that mattered.

00:14:08   And in reality, for what most of us are working on,

00:14:12   it'd be different if you're running

00:14:13   like a life support system,

00:14:15   but for what most of us are working on,

00:14:17   of like, well, if I screw up,

00:14:19   people can't sync their new podcasts for a few minutes.

00:14:22   It's not that big of a problem in life.

00:14:26   It's not a huge deal.

00:14:28   And honestly, that's part of one of the reasons

00:14:30   I choose to work on the things that I choose to work on,

00:14:33   rather than going to work for a hospital or a bank

00:14:36   or something where the consequences of screwing up can be larger. Because I don't want that

00:14:41   kind of stress in my life, and I respect people who do it. That's great. I'm really happy

00:14:44   they do, so I don't have to. I'm really very happy to be working on consumer entertainment

00:14:50   apps, basically.

00:14:51   >>

00:14:51   >> BRIAN KARDELL Yeah, and I think it is one thing that I know from my own experience,

00:14:54   I always remember when I—it's similar to the way people forget if you have a web service

00:14:59   that goes down. I remember when I had a normal office job, I'd always, whenever I was going

00:15:04   on a long vacation, more than just a long weekend, I was going to be gone for a week

00:15:08   or ten days or something like that. And I always remember this feeling of, "How are

00:15:12   they going to survive without me?" essentially. I have all these things in my mind that, "Well,

00:15:17   "Well, I'm the one who does that.

00:15:18   "I'm the one who does that."

00:15:20   And then you kind of, you go on vacation and you come back

00:15:22   and you realize that they got along just fine without you.

00:15:25   And it's like, it's good, it's humbling

00:15:27   in a really constructive way, I always found,

00:15:30   to realize that because you are in the middle of your world,

00:15:35   you make all the things that you touch

00:15:37   feel more important and valuable

00:15:39   than they are probably in reality.

00:15:42   And so that after a certain number of times

00:15:44   of having that feeling of like,

00:15:45   "Oh no, it's all gonna fall apart if I leave,"

00:15:48   and then it didn't, it starts to be like,

00:15:51   "Oh no, this is fine," and it's probably more important

00:15:54   and beneficial and healthy for me

00:15:56   to have a little bit of that perspective

00:15:58   and distance from my work and to say,

00:16:00   "It's okay for me to leave.

00:16:01   "It's okay for things to not be perfect 100% of the time.

00:16:06   "99% of the time is probably fine."

00:16:08   And to then, as a result, have a better perspective

00:16:12   of your work and be healthier about it,

00:16:14   to not overdo it, to not get into a place that,

00:16:18   like at a certain point you just can't work,

00:16:20   or you're burned out to a degree that,

00:16:23   at least in my experience, when you really get burned out,

00:16:26   very often happens, by definition,

00:16:29   at the least opportune time,

00:16:32   because it's happening when you are most stressed,

00:16:35   when you are most, things are really crunching,

00:16:39   and then because it's crunching,

00:16:41   if you haven't been taking care of yourself,

00:16:43   suddenly you're gonna find that maybe you just can't work,

00:16:44   You're gonna get, like, you'll get sick, or you'll get just worn out, and your work

00:16:48   will suffer.

00:16:49   And it's like it's happening at the least opportune time, and so you have to plan for

00:16:52   it, like, at the quieter times, at the times that, like, building time into your schedule,

00:16:57   building vacation into what you're doing, making sure that you're taking care of yourself

00:17:01   in that way.

00:17:02   Because if you don't, like, it's eventually it's gonna catch up with you.

00:17:05   Like, we're all just human.

00:17:06   And you can't just keep going forever.

00:17:08   And so if you don't think about it ahead of time, it's just never gonna work.

00:17:13   Our sponsor this week is Imageix once again.

00:17:16   Imageix is basically an image processing CDN.

00:17:19   You have some source of images

00:17:20   and you want to serve them not only through a fast CDN

00:17:23   'cause Imageix is themselves a very fast image serving CDN

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00:17:28   And of course, have your clients load things way faster

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00:17:33   But also with Imageix, right there in the URL

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00:17:54   I use ImageX myself.

00:17:55   If you view overcast images in Tweetbot,

00:17:58   I do a thing where Tweetbot images in many contexts

00:18:01   have to be 16 by nine,

00:18:03   and podcast artwork is always square.

00:18:05   So I do the thing that the TV news people do

00:18:08   when they have to show a portrait video

00:18:11   in a landscape screen,

00:18:11   where they show the portrait video in the middle.

00:18:14   On the left and right, they have these kind of bars

00:18:16   of a blurred version of that same video.

00:18:19   I do a very similar version of that for podcast artwork

00:18:22   in these 16 by nine contexts, all powered by image X.

00:18:25   The main image in the middle, the square image,

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00:18:43   is powered by URL parameters that I pass ImageX.

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00:19:04   They also have client libraries if you want another layer

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00:19:11   by the developers of the watch site, Hodinkee.

00:19:14   Check it out, imageix.com, imgix.com/utor

00:19:18   for under the radar.

00:19:20   Thank you very much to Imageix,

00:19:21   the real-time image processing CDN,

00:19:23   for sponsoring our show.

00:19:25   So on that kind of context, I wanna talk about

00:19:29   ways you can get things off of your plate

00:19:32   for ongoing stress and just stress-wise.

00:19:36   With web services, there's this whole spectrum

00:19:40   of how much you want to be managing things

00:19:43   from totally unmanaged stuff like you run your own servers

00:19:47   co-located in a data center somewhere

00:19:49   or out of your house or something like that,

00:19:51   which I really don't recommend doing.

00:19:53   - Sounds like a terrible idea.

00:19:54   - Yes.

00:19:55   All the way through the dedicated host,

00:19:58   through virtual private hosts like Linode, my favorite,

00:20:01   all the way across to these kind of cloud manic services

00:20:04   where you aren't even necessarily dealing with servers

00:20:07   or even instances of servers,

00:20:09   but you're dealing with higher level abstractions,

00:20:11   like CloudKit is a great example,

00:20:14   where you aren't dealing with the servers at all,

00:20:16   or even some third-party services

00:20:18   where you're kind of dealing with these abstract concepts.

00:20:20   Like I think parse, is parse one of those?

00:20:22   - Parse, yeah, or Azure does one.

00:20:24   - Yeah, yeah.

00:20:25   - A whole bunch of things like that, yeah.

00:20:26   - Yeah, and there's stuff in the middle,

00:20:28   there's Heroku and stuff like that,

00:20:30   you're kind of like in the middle of the abstraction layer there. So there's all these systems

00:20:34   on this big long spectrum of like how much do you want to be managing yourself? And there's

00:20:39   trade-offs. You know, you might think from this episode that I would say have everything

00:20:44   be managed by other people and go to the full abstract end of things. But that isn't necessarily

00:20:49   always a win. I mean, first of all, you are usually paying way more for that. For the

00:20:54   basic resources you are using, generally there's a pretty big markup if you're using one of

00:20:58   these more abstract services, especially on bandwidth and occasionally on storage space

00:21:03   and RAM as well. So you pay quite a premium for that. And that could really make the difference

00:21:08   between whether something is profitable or not. I mean, the amount of compute power and

00:21:13   of bandwidth that I get for Overcast at Linode running unmanaged VPSs, I'm putting the

00:21:20   management load of that on myself for anything that's basically not hardware and network

00:21:25   related. So any kind of software issue, updates, scaling issues, I basically have to do that

00:21:32   myself in some way. Even if it's just as easy as telling Linode to clone a server four

00:21:38   more times or to resize it to get more RAM, the process of doing it still falls on me.

00:21:43   So that is usually way cheaper, it's usually much more in your control. Then on the other

00:21:48   side you have the more managed services where, again, you don't have to really deal with

00:21:52   anything. However, what I said earlier about if the data center that you're in

00:21:56   has a network problem, it is not your fault but it is your problem because

00:22:01   your customers don't know it's not your fault and your customers will still

00:22:04   blame you. Even though when something is out of your hands it is not on you to

00:22:09   fix it, it still is your problem in the sense that you have to accept that it's

00:22:13   down and when it's out of your responsibility it's also out of your

00:22:17   control. If something is just down for a while, not only do you not have to fix it, but you

00:22:24   can't fix it even if you want to. And that is kind of a double-edged sword. Usually it's

00:22:29   worth going more in that direction if there's no other major downsides, like if you can

00:22:32   afford to, if it does what you need it to do, if it has enough capacity, whatever. But

00:22:37   there is that little problem of like, you know, if something goes wrong with CloudKit,

00:22:41   you're kind of just helpless. You can't really do anything about that.

00:22:45   >> Yeah, and I think even there it's also understanding where,

00:22:49   like as you're looking at the things that you're responsible for,

00:22:53   the responsibilities that you're choosing to have, you have to think about it too from the

00:22:57   perspective of like where do you personally add

00:23:01   unique useful value? Is administering

00:23:05   a Linux virtual private server something that you think

00:23:09   you would do well, that you're good at, that you know how to do, a skill

00:23:13   that if you're not great at it now that you think you'd benefit from being able to do.

00:23:17   And if that's the case, then great, take that on and embrace it.

00:23:22   But I think the important thing is to also be able to look at yourself and say, "Hmm,

00:23:27   I really don't like SSHing into Linux boxes and running top and working out what's broken,

00:23:33   and that's not for me."

00:23:35   It's like, "Okay, so then go the next level up until you feel comfortable with where you

00:23:39   you are, because trying to do something that you're actually not good at or isn't your

00:23:46   forte is just very counterproductive.

00:23:49   And the same thing applies to all kinds of things, like outsourcing your help desk.

00:23:52   I don't do my first-year customer support anymore because I found that I'm not very

00:23:58   good at it.

00:24:00   It would make me—I'd have the problem of if you get 100 positive things and one negative

00:24:05   thing, that one negative thing really sticks with you, and I was really counterproductive

00:24:08   to my motivation, and so I decided, you know, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna outsource this.

00:24:12   I'm gonna have someone else do it, someone else who's way better at it than I am.

00:24:15   Like I need to look at myself and say like, "I'm not really good at writing emails.

00:24:19   Like I'm good at writing code, and so I'm gonna outsource that out."

00:24:22   And that can apply to all the whole spectrum of your things, because like at its core,

00:24:28   you're gonna be like, it's like the old trite thing they always say, it's like, "If you

00:24:32   love what you do, you never work a day in your life," which isn't really true, but at

00:24:37   At the very least, the kernel in there that is true is that if you're doing work that

00:24:41   you're really good at, that you really are able to feel like you're really doing an awesome

00:24:47   job on, that it's right in your sweet spot in terms of your skill set and your challenge

00:24:51   and your motivation, you're going to be much less worn out by it.

00:24:56   You're going to enjoy it much more, and that's probably a better place to be than if you're

00:25:00   just kind of forcing yourself to do stuff because you think you need to or because you

00:25:05   feel like there's no other choice.

00:25:07   and to find, looking at what you're doing,

00:25:08   like, and finding those areas that you can say,

00:25:10   okay, I'm gonna outsource this,

00:25:11   I'm gonna take this, all this responsibility off my plate,

00:25:14   is probably gonna increase your overall sense

00:25:16   of restfulness, which is definitely a plus.

00:25:19   - Absolutely.

00:25:22   All right, with that, I think it's time to wrap up,

00:25:24   and we are going on vacation.

00:25:26   We will not have a show next week,

00:25:28   because we're gonna take a break.

00:25:30   We're gonna unwind from the massive amount of work

00:25:32   that this show is every week. (laughs)

00:25:36   We really are taking a break.

00:25:37   We're gonna take the week off

00:25:39   'cause we're gonna be traveling and everything,

00:25:40   be with our families.

00:25:41   So we will see you in January.

00:25:43   And thank you very much for listening.

00:25:44   Please recommend us, et cetera.

00:25:46   And have a happy New Year, everybody,

00:25:48   and we will see you next year.

00:25:51   - Merry Christmas, happy New Year, see you in January.

00:25:54   [