Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► Welcome back to Under the Radar,

00:00:01 ◼   ► a show about independent iOS development.

00:00:03 ◼   ► I am Marco Arment.

00:00:04 ◼   ► - And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes,

00:00:08 ◼   ► so let's get started.

00:00:10 ◼   ► Our goal for Under the Radar is for it to be

00:00:13 ◼   ► a show that covers all of the various aspects

00:00:15 ◼   ► of what it means to be a developer,

00:00:18 ◼   ► whether that independent or working in a corporate job.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Like, we wanna talk a lot about all the various things

00:00:23 ◼   ► that are important to people who are in development jobs.

00:00:25 ◼   ► And so in our first episode, we talked about

00:00:28 ◼   ► something that was more business oriented,

00:00:29 ◼   ► we talked about something more coding last week. This week, we're going to take a slightly

00:00:32 ◼   ► softer topic, but our goal is to kind of make sure that we're covering a lot of things and

00:00:35 ◼   ► we're not just diving into one thing too much. And hopefully that makes it a lot more interesting

00:00:40 ◼   ► and a bit more varied to listen to. And so this week, we're going to talk about making

00:00:46 ◼   ► your ideal work environment and what that looks like for us, the experiences we've had

00:00:51 ◼   ► in setting that up, as well as just kind of like things that you should be thinking about

00:00:55 ◼   ► because being a developer is kind of a funny job. We go to work by sitting, you know, we

00:01:01 ◼   ► go into an office, whatever that looks like, we sit down in a chair and we push buttons

00:01:05 ◼   ► on a keyboard and a mouse. And at the end of that, out comes some code. And that's our

00:01:10 ◼   ► profession. But as a result, like the way in which we spend our time when we're sitting

00:01:16 ◼   ► for, you know, 40, 50, 60 hours a week, or whatever your particular work environment

00:01:20 ◼   ► looks like, the way in which we do that is very important. Because if it doesn't make

00:01:24 ◼   ► us the most productive, we're kind of shooting ourselves in the foot. And along those lines,

00:01:29 ◼   ► there's also things like ergonomics and problems with RSI and things that I know myself are

00:01:33 ◼   ► worried about and have had some problems with that I wanted to sort of dive into. But so

00:01:38 ◼   ► Marco, what is your current ideal work environment look like?

00:01:43 ◼   ► So basically, I've set up my home office because I work only from home. I don't have any other

00:01:48 ◼   ► offices that I go to or work from. And that's a whole other topic that we might be able

00:01:53 ◼   ► to get to today but we'll certainly talk about in the future. I have a desk that I

00:01:58 ◼   ► maybe I didn't quite steal it. I negotiated it as part of my exit from Tumblr, which is

00:02:05 ◼   ► an electrically raising and lowering desk. I love having the standing desk because a

00:02:09 ◼   ► while ago I developed some pretty bad back problems. I was taking way too many road trips

00:02:15 ◼   ► and was basically spending way too much time in cars over a span of about a year. And so

00:02:21 ◼   ► I eventually developed lower back problems.

00:02:24 ◼   ► I had a herniated disc and everything,

00:02:26 ◼   ► so in order to avoid that and to kind of fix that,

00:02:29 ◼   ► I had to make a bunch of changes in my life,

00:02:31 ◼   ► one of which was for almost a year, I think,

00:02:35 ◼   ► I exclusively stood while working.

00:02:38 ◼   ► And at first, I had rigged this up

00:02:40 ◼   ► by stacking two six-packs stacked

00:02:43 ◼   ► with IKEA bookshelves spanning across them.

00:02:47 ◼   ► So it ends up that is about the height difference

00:02:49 ◼   ► that you can put a keyboard and mouse on,

00:02:51 ◼   ► and then another set of those on the back for the monitor to kind of make a makeshift

00:02:56 ◼   ► standing desk from one that is normally a sitting desk.

00:02:59 ◼   ► And then eventually we decided to make it official and get really nice electric ones

00:03:03 ◼   ► because everyone else in the office wanted them too.

00:03:05 ◼   ► And it's nice to be able to convert easily back and forth between standing and sitting.

00:03:09 ◼   ► So you can do things like stand in the morning and then when you're tired in the afternoon

00:03:12 ◼   ► you can sit for the afternoon.

00:03:13 ◼   ► It's nice to have that kind of variety if you have any kind of back problem.

00:03:16 ◼   ► And it's also just like, you know, probably slightly better for you.

00:03:19 ◼   ► There's various studies, most of which are conflicting and inconclusive like most studies,

00:03:23 ◼   ► but yeah.

00:03:24 ◼   ► It's probably a good thing to mix standing with sitting in your day if you can, however,

00:03:29 ◼   ► whatever form that takes.

00:03:31 ◼   ► I also had RSI scares earlier.

00:03:33 ◼   ► So a long time ago I switched from regular, you know, kind of keyboards to the split ergonomic

00:03:39 ◼   ► keyboard layout.

00:03:40 ◼   ► Originally it was the Microsoft Natural something something 4000, and I used those for a long

00:03:46 ◼   ► time.

00:03:47 ◼   ► and then a couple years ago now,

00:03:50 ◼   ► or maybe one or two years ago now,

00:03:51 ◼   ► they released the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Keyboard,

00:03:55 ◼   ► which is kind of an update to it,

00:03:56 ◼   ► and it's another split ergo keyboard,

00:03:59 ◼   ► and I like it a lot.

00:04:00 ◼   ► I reviewed it on my site.

00:04:01 ◼   ► I'll add links to show notes so you can see all these.

00:04:03 ◼   ► I've tried other ergonomic keyboards as well,

00:04:05 ◼   ► including the Kinesis Freestyle 2 and the Mattias Ergo Pro,

00:04:09 ◼   ► and they're both very good as well.

00:04:12 ◼   ► I still prefer the Sculpt, but anyway,

00:04:14 ◼   ► switching to an ergo keyboard really was

00:04:17 ◼   ► one of the biggest things to help me with RSI issues.

00:04:20 ◼   ► And after that switch, I no longer have any pain,

00:04:23 ◼   ► almost ever, since, I don't know, 10 years ago

00:04:26 ◼   ► when I made that switch, I have occasionally tried

00:04:28 ◼   ► to switch back to a non-split keyboard,

00:04:31 ◼   ► or I've gone on trips where I have to bring a laptop

00:04:33 ◼   ► and I'm using a laptop keyboard more heavily than usual.

00:04:37 ◼   ► And every time I switch to a non-split keyboard,

00:04:39 ◼   ► even for a few days, I do start getting pain again.

00:04:43 ◼   ► And so now I just know about myself

00:04:45 ◼   ► but this is just something that I will probably not

00:04:48 ◼   ► be able to ever switch back to full time

00:04:50 ◼   ► to like the regular layout.

00:04:51 ◼   ► Which of course has, you know,

00:04:53 ◼   ► a lot of interesting ramifications

00:04:54 ◼   ► with things like working from iPads and stuff like that.

00:04:56 ◼   ► But my physical layout is standing desk,

00:04:59 ◼   ► most of which I usually am sitting at it these days.

00:05:02 ◼   ► I don't stand often anymore,

00:05:04 ◼   ► but sometimes I'll put it up to stands.

00:05:06 ◼   ► But most of the time I'm sitting,

00:05:08 ◼   ► I'm sitting on a Herman Miller Embody chair.

00:05:10 ◼   ► Get a good chair.

00:05:11 ◼   ► How many chairs do you buy in your life?

00:05:12 ◼   ► Like really?

00:05:13 ◼   ► Well, if you do my previous method of buying them from Staples and they're like 60 bucks,

00:05:18 ◼   ► then the number might be pretty high.

00:05:19 ◼   ► But when you get a good chair, you tend to keep it for like 10 years at least.

00:05:23 ◼   ► The Herman Miller Embody is great.

00:05:25 ◼   ► The Aeron is also very good.

00:05:27 ◼   ► I think the Embody is better, but you know, it's up to you.

00:05:30 ◼   ► Go to a fancy chair store and try them out.

00:05:31 ◼   ► But yeah, that's basically it.

00:05:34 ◼   ► Standing desk, Herman Miller Embody chair, and split keyboard, and the Apple Magic Mouse,

00:05:39 ◼   ► which everybody hates.

00:05:40 ◼   ► Yeah, I was about to actually say it's like I have a very similar setup. I have the same

00:05:45 ◼   ► chair and keyboard, but mouse-wise, what I found is actually gaming mice are really great

00:05:51 ◼   ► for development work, which is a funny thing to say because there are all kinds of... I

00:05:56 ◼   ► think the mouse I have is this thing. It's like the Razer DeathAdder 8000 or something.

00:06:01 ◼   ► I mean, they always have these very scary sounding names. It's something terrifying,

00:06:07 ◼   ► but...

00:06:08 ◼   ► Is it full of blue LEDs?

00:06:09 ◼   ► I had a choice, I could get a model with or without the LED, and I opted to get the non-LED

00:06:13 ◼   ► version just for stylistic reasons.

00:06:19 ◼   ► What I love about a mouse like that though is it has some incredibly light touch on the

00:06:23 ◼   ► buttons.

00:06:24 ◼   ► Because obviously if you're playing some kind of first person shooter and you're clicking

00:06:29 ◼   ► that button lots and lots of times, you need a very light trigger.

00:06:31 ◼   ► It's sort of like it has a feather trigger on it, which I found to be really nice.

00:06:37 ◼   ► is like the Apple mice, I have a whole closet of them

00:06:41 ◼   ► because they think you get one every time you buy an iMac.

00:06:44 ◼   ► But I've never used one because they're just,

00:06:46 ◼   ► it feels like I'm trying to like, I don't even know,

00:06:49 ◼   ► it's like hold on to this bar of soap or something.

00:06:51 ◼   ► Like it's clenching my hand in a really awkward way.

00:06:54 ◼   ► But otherwise, yeah, I have a very similar setup for you

00:06:59 ◼   ► as I have a desk that, I have a desk that I got,

00:07:01 ◼   ► the IKEA standing desk, so it has like the motor thing

00:07:05 ◼   ► and it's like the IKEA thing, it was a couple hundred dollars

00:07:07 ◼   ► I think it wasn't all that expensive. I've never used it standing. I got it

00:07:11 ◼   ► When I needed a new desk and I was like well

00:07:13 ◼   ► I'm gonna pay the few extra hundred dollars to get a standing mode so that if I need to at some point or it becomes something

00:07:18 ◼   ► That I want to do I can

00:07:20 ◼   ► I've always found standing to feel a bit awkward

00:07:22 ◼   ► like I don't know if I just feel like I've gotten so used to I sit down when I work and like breaking the habit of

00:07:28 ◼   ► Like sitting down and standing up doesn't feel like working

00:07:32 ◼   ► Which is I mean, I'd be a bit weird, but I have it there just in case of course

00:07:36 ◼   ► The other amusing thing about my working setup that I wanted to mention is the thing that I've seen most

00:07:41 ◼   ► People who end up complaining about problems with ergonomics or problems in my experience. It's one of two things

00:07:47 ◼   ► They're using a regular keyboard and they need to try using a split keyboard

00:07:51 ◼   ► Or they're their screen is too low down because I for some reason

00:07:57 ◼   ► I don't really know who Apple is designing their their

00:08:00 ◼   ► computers for. All of their computers, like most specifically the iMac or the cinema displays,

00:08:06 ◼   ► the stands are ridiculously short. The computer is only, if you just put it on its own stand,

00:08:12 ◼   ► it would be like four or five inches above the table. And for every, for almost every, you know,

00:08:16 ◼   ► for unless you have a very strangely proportioned torso, that means that you're going to be looking down at the

00:08:23 ◼   ► screen all day. And that's terrible for you.

00:08:27 ◼   ► Like, it's sort of, I noticed this myself whenever I would have to, like, I'm forced

00:08:30 ◼   ► to work from a laptop for more than a few hours, because typically I never use a laptop

00:08:35 ◼   ► except for like when I'm at, you know, like at a conference for a week or WWDC, something

00:08:38 ◼   ► like that, where I have to, I have to use a laptop, but I immediately noticed like my

00:08:42 ◼   ► shoulders get all tight.

00:08:44 ◼   ► I'll start to get like pain in my neck and all kinds of things because you're looking

00:08:47 ◼   ► down.

00:08:48 ◼   ► So for me, I kind of, I don't even know if I should say this, but I kind of, I'm kind

00:08:53 ◼   ► of a hoarder of Apple packaging.

00:08:55 ◼   ► So every Apple device I've ever bought, I have the packaging for still.

00:08:59 ◼   ► But so my iMac is stacked on a MacBook Pro box, which on top of that is an iPad box and

00:09:06 ◼   ► it's sort of laid, it's sort of put on there and I have a strap over it to keep it together.

00:09:12 ◼   ► But it raises it up by maybe about six inches or so.

00:09:16 ◼   ► And for me, that's perfect.

00:09:17 ◼   ► So that like, I'm the one thing I remember when I was back when I was in college, I had

00:09:22 ◼   ► had this really, this random mandatory class

00:09:26 ◼   ► that all the computer science majors had to take

00:09:28 ◼   ► that was basically how to not end up hurting yourself

00:09:32 ◼   ► being a software engineer.

00:09:33 ◼   ► They were talking about all these things,

00:09:34 ◼   ► about ergonomics and about how you work life types of things

00:09:39 ◼   ► but the biggest thing I remember they said is,

00:09:41 ◼   ► would you wanna look,

00:09:42 ◼   ► when you set up your work environment,

00:09:44 ◼   ► there should be no tension in any part of you.

00:09:47 ◼   ► Everything should be neutral.

00:09:48 ◼   ► Your elbows should be at a nice 90 degree angle,

00:09:50 ◼   ► your shoulders should be relaxed,

00:09:52 ◼   ► your legs should be at a nice 90 degree angle,

00:09:54 ◼   ► like everything, nothing should be in tension.

00:09:56 ◼   ► And the only way I've ever been able to do that

00:09:58 ◼   ► is to lift my iMac up, put my keyboard at normal,

00:10:01 ◼   ► at like, this is actually a nice thing

00:10:02 ◼   ► about having a standing desk,

00:10:03 ◼   ► is you can make your table height whatever you want.

00:10:05 ◼   ► So like my table height is nice and low,

00:10:07 ◼   ► and for me I found that to work really well.

00:10:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, definitely.

00:10:11 ◼   ► And that's like, this is one of the worries

00:10:13 ◼   ► I have about our industry in general,

00:10:14 ◼   ► but although this problem usually kind of solved itself

00:10:17 ◼   ► through force, through RSI and neck and shoulder problems,

00:10:21 ◼   ► is that it seems like the default developer workstation

00:10:26 ◼   ► has shifted over the last 10 years.

00:10:28 ◼   ► It used to be a desktop computer,

00:10:31 ◼   ► but now I think for almost every working developer

00:10:35 ◼   ► that I've encountered in real life,

00:10:37 ◼   ► they're almost always working on a laptop full-time.

00:10:39 ◼   ► - It's a 15-inch MacBook Pro, right?

00:10:41 ◼   ► - Exactly. - That's what everyone has.

00:10:42 ◼   ► - That is like the workhorse computer.

00:10:44 ◼   ► It's not the new MacBook One, it's not the MacBook Air,

00:10:47 ◼   ► it isn't even the 13.

00:10:48 ◼   ► The most common computer by far

00:10:50 ◼   ► that I see developers using is the 15 inch MacBook Pro.

00:10:53 ◼   ► And even if they're like web developers,

00:10:54 ◼   ► even if they're not even iOS developers,

00:10:55 ◼   ► even if they're web developers or something else,

00:10:57 ◼   ► it's a 15 inch MacBook Pro, almost always.

00:11:00 ◼   ► But the problem is so many developers work full time

00:11:05 ◼   ► on a laptop sitting on a desk without external stuff,

00:11:08 ◼   ► just like on the laptop itself.

00:11:10 ◼   ► And if it's somebody I know who I wouldn't mind

00:11:13 ◼   ► ribbing a bit, I'll ask them, so by any chance,

00:11:14 ◼   ► do you have neck and shoulder soreness or problems?

00:11:18 ◼   ► 'Cause hunching over a laptop is really not good long term,

00:11:21 ◼   ► as you said, like it, you really should be looking

00:11:24 ◼   ► straight ahead, you should be looking at,

00:11:26 ◼   ► you should be typing on a keyboard that is,

00:11:28 ◼   ► you know, by proper ergonomics,

00:11:29 ◼   ► the keyboard needs to be fairly far from the screen.

00:11:32 ◼   ► So it's kind of impossible to get good ergonomics

00:11:35 ◼   ► out of a laptop.

00:11:36 ◼   ► If you have a laptop and you're working

00:11:38 ◼   ► at the same desk every day, one setup I did,

00:11:40 ◼   ► the setup I did for years when I was working on a laptop

00:11:43 ◼   ► was you'd have the external keyboard, mouse,

00:11:45 ◼   ► and monitor, and the laptop would be propped up

00:11:49 ◼   ► on a stand next to it.

00:11:50 ◼   ► So the laptop would be the second monitor.

00:11:52 ◼   ► The external monitor would be the primary,

00:11:55 ◼   ► and then you'd have the keyboard and mouse.

00:11:56 ◼   ► So you can simulate a really nice desktop

00:12:00 ◼   ► by using a laptop with external peripherals and a stand.

00:12:04 ◼   ► And if you're gonna be working on a laptop full-time,

00:12:06 ◼   ► that is by far the setup I recommend,

00:12:08 ◼   ► 'cause you get double the screen space,

00:12:10 ◼   ► you don't have to deal with the weirdness

00:12:11 ◼   ► of the laptop working in clamshell mode,

00:12:13 ◼   ► which is never good.

00:12:14 ◼   ► It's always a hack, it's always unreliable.

00:12:17 ◼   ► There's occasionally some heat issues

00:12:18 ◼   ► or some melting the screen issues.

00:12:20 ◼   ► - It's not good.

00:12:22 ◼   ► - No, it's not, it's really, it's not reliably good.

00:12:25 ◼   ► But having the side-by-side on a stand setup is great.

00:12:29 ◼   ► And if you have to work on a laptop full-time,

00:12:31 ◼   ► that is the way to do it ergonomically.

00:12:33 ◼   ► And I wonder about how this ends up working with,

00:12:37 ◼   ► like, if we have a future where we're working

00:12:39 ◼   ► more on iOS devices, you know, the smartphone,

00:12:43 ◼   ► I'm not too worried about the ergonomics of smartphones,

00:12:46 ◼   ► but that might also have the kind of neck looking down issue.

00:12:51 ◼   ► I am a little concerned about what happens

00:12:53 ◼   ► if we get really into tablets as an industry,

00:12:55 ◼   ► of working on tablets, because you use your hands

00:13:00 ◼   ► on a tablet keyboard the way you would

00:13:03 ◼   ► on a desktop keyboard.

00:13:04 ◼   ► Like on a smartphone, you're using your thumbs.

00:13:06 ◼   ► So it's a whole different position.

00:13:08 ◼   ► And a smartphone I don't think would be fatiguing

00:13:10 ◼   ► in the same way because of the way you're holding it

00:13:13 ◼   ► in your hand seems like a very natural position

00:13:15 ◼   ► for your hand to be in.

00:13:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, your fingers are fairly neutral.

00:13:18 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:13:18 ◼   ► On a small tablet, you're probably doing the same thing.

00:13:20 ◼   ► On a big tablet, you might be doing on-screen typing,

00:13:23 ◼   ► touch typing style, or you might be using

00:13:25 ◼   ► an external keyboard, and that, I think,

00:13:28 ◼   ► is gonna have ergonomic challenges,

00:13:30 ◼   ► similar to what laptops have, if not a little bit worse,

00:13:32 ◼   ► 'cause everything's a little bit more cramped.

00:13:33 ◼   ► And we don't yet know the long-term ergonomics

00:13:37 ◼   ► of these things.

00:13:37 ◼   ► We've had computers, like PC-style computers,

00:13:40 ◼   ► We've had those for decades to be able to study the ergonomics of long-term use and

00:13:46 ◼   ► the effects of this use.

00:13:48 ◼   ► We've had so much time to study this and to figure out good ergonomic practices on

00:13:52 ◼   ► this and what's good and what's not.

00:13:54 ◼   ► With all these new devices that we have, they're just too young.

00:13:56 ◼   ► We just haven't had the time yet to figure out what happens ergonomically if you work

00:14:00 ◼   ► on a tablet for 10 hours a day for 10 years.

00:14:02 ◼   ► We just don't know yet.

00:14:04 ◼   ► And I'm a little scared if the industry moves more towards these things, that actually

00:14:08 ◼   ► makes it harder to get good ergonomics.

00:14:11 ◼   ► 'Cause the world of desktops and laptops and PCs,

00:14:15 ◼   ► every person can kind of pick what works for them

00:14:17 ◼   ► and mix and match and there's tons of availability

00:14:19 ◼   ► of things you can do, keyboards you can use,

00:14:22 ◼   ► mice you can use, arrangements of the setup,

00:14:24 ◼   ► kinds of setups, there's all this variety.

00:14:27 ◼   ► As we move towards these kind of all-in-one integrated

00:14:30 ◼   ► devices and iPads and phones and everything,

00:14:32 ◼   ► I feel like the amount of variety possible

00:14:35 ◼   ► is substantially smaller.

00:14:36 ◼   ► As we keep moving towards everything must be as small and thin and light as possible,

00:14:42 ◼   ► small and thin and light are often in conflict with good ergonomics, which is one of the

00:14:47 ◼   ► problems Apple has with the design of its product.

00:14:49 ◼   ► As you mentioned, the whole reason the iMac and Cinema Display stand is so short is because

00:14:55 ◼   ► it looks worse when it's taller.

00:14:57 ◼   ► It doesn't look as nice.

00:14:59 ◼   ► And that's why it's short, to make it look better.

00:15:03 ◼   ► And oftentimes, proper ergonomics don't look that good.

00:15:05 ◼   ► it's always this balance that has to be struck.

00:15:07 ◼   ► And I hope by talking about it here,

00:15:10 ◼   ► I think my main hope is that people,

00:15:13 ◼   ► especially young people, for whom it's not too late yet,

00:15:16 ◼   ► I hope that people really take seriously

00:15:19 ◼   ► their own ergonomics because the problems

00:15:22 ◼   ► can accumulate quickly.

00:15:24 ◼   ► I first had RSI pain after only about a year and a half

00:15:29 ◼   ► of working full-time as a programmer.

00:15:31 ◼   ► I was like 23 or something.

00:15:32 ◼   ► I was very young still.

00:15:34 ◼   ► And it came on immediately.

00:15:35 ◼   ► It was so quick.

00:15:36 ◼   ► I developed my back problem when I was only like 25.

00:15:41 ◼   ► This stuff can happen when you're young, and the earlier you catch it, the better.

00:15:46 ◼   ► And the earlier you develop good habits, the better.

00:15:48 ◼   ► Yeah, and I had a similar experience.

00:15:51 ◼   ► Very early on in my career, I discovered that if I typed for...

00:15:55 ◼   ► Especially after a session where you really get in the zone, and you're really working,

00:15:59 ◼   ► and you have the days where you look up, and it's like, "Wow, I've just been sitting in

00:16:04 ◼   ► exactly the same position for five hours straight. Like I

00:16:06 ◼   ► haven't moved, because I've been so focused on what it is I'm

00:16:09 ◼   ► building, which is awesome, like from a development perspective,

00:16:12 ◼   ► then I'd like get up and it's like, how like that, like it

00:16:15 ◼   ► hurts. And then you start to have the thoughts of it's like,

00:16:17 ◼   ► if I can't type like I can't, I can't do my job. Like it's it's

00:16:21 ◼   ► a kind of one of those scary, like disability type of things.

00:16:25 ◼   ► Like if I if I ended up hurting myself, like it would be like my

00:16:28 ◼   ► hands are what I use to make my to do to do my work. Like I

00:16:31 ◼   ► can't, there's there's not really, I'm sure that I could

00:16:33 ◼   ► workout ways around it, but it's such a vital thing. Like you said, the reason I wanted

00:16:39 ◼   ► this early topic for me is it's an important thing. It's one of the few things that as

00:16:45 ◼   ► a profession, professionally you have to take care of yourself with because if you lose

00:16:50 ◼   ► the ability to type or to type comfortably, it's going to be a pretty serious problem.

00:16:57 ◼   ► And all of these types of pain, whether it's like wrist style pain or neck and shoulder

00:17:02 ◼   ► or back pain, all of those things come on very slowly and then leave very slowly. These

00:17:09 ◼   ► aren't like, "Oh, I'm sore for one day," and then it's normal. They could last weeks

00:17:13 ◼   ► or months. And it's over weeks or months that the bad habits get built and that the

00:17:17 ◼   ► problem gets exacerbated. Again, they come on slowly and they leave slowly. So it is

00:17:22 ◼   ► important like feeling any wrist or neck or back pain is not normal like if you

00:17:28 ◼   ► feel any of that pain after any day you're doing something wrong and so

00:17:32 ◼   ► there's always room for improvement you know the more you move around during the

00:17:35 ◼   ► day you'll help your back how you sit if you sit like with good posture if that

00:17:40 ◼   ► helps a lot how you use or don't use armrests and wrist rests if you have a

00:17:46 ◼   ► keyboard it look please use a split keyboard if you can if you can't or

00:17:51 ◼   ► refuse to, at minimum, please do not use the feet on the back of the keyboard that elevate

00:17:57 ◼   ► it up. Because that is working against you so hard. Any keyboard you type on should be

00:18:03 ◼   ► either flat or should actually be what they call negative tilted, which is that the front

00:18:08 ◼   ► of it should be higher than the back. Which no keyboard has that option that I know of,

00:18:13 ◼   ► except natural keyboards to do that. That is like the more comfortable and better for

00:18:18 ◼   ► for RSI angle that a keyboard should be at.

00:18:20 ◼   ► The feet on the back that prop it up

00:18:22 ◼   ► that all of us used in the 90s and 2000s

00:18:24 ◼   ► 'cause we didn't know any better,

00:18:25 ◼   ► if you're typing upwards on a keyboard

00:18:27 ◼   ► that's the back of it is higher than the front,

00:18:30 ◼   ► you're actually making your wrist tilt

00:18:31 ◼   ► in a horrible position that can really exacerbate problems

00:18:35 ◼   ► and bring on RSI faster.

00:18:37 ◼   ► And it's just like this kind of basic stuff like this,

00:18:39 ◼   ► a lot of people just don't know this.

00:18:41 ◼   ► If you have a properly aligned keyboard

00:18:45 ◼   ► and you have your monitor at the correct height

00:18:47 ◼   ► and your desk is at the correct height,

00:18:50 ◼   ► even if you don't have a fancy electric

00:18:51 ◼   ► raising and lowering desk, you can probably adjust

00:18:53 ◼   ► the legs in your desk to different heights,

00:18:55 ◼   ► so most desks have that.

00:18:56 ◼   ► Having the proper height of everything,

00:18:58 ◼   ► just the basics of that, that is so important

00:19:01 ◼   ► and it goes so far.

00:19:02 ◼   ► And for many people, myself included,

00:19:04 ◼   ► these minor changes or caring about these few minor areas,

00:19:09 ◼   ► that's all you need to prevent RSI.

00:19:11 ◼   ► And I don't know what my future holds,

00:19:13 ◼   ► but I know I've been able to work now full time

00:19:15 ◼   ► for what, 10 years at least?

00:19:18 ◼   ► And I only had RSI issues that first year,

00:19:22 ◼   ► and only until I made these changes, and now I'm fine.

00:19:25 ◼   ► So really, they can have a big difference.

00:19:27 ◼   ► - And one thing that's also probably worth mentioning

00:19:28 ◼   ► is in my experience, I haven't had a corporate job

00:19:31 ◼   ► in a long time, but whenever I did,

00:19:33 ◼   ► any time I went to my boss and said,

00:19:34 ◼   ► "Hey, I'm having some RSI-related things,

00:19:37 ◼   ► "could I get a different keyboard,

00:19:40 ◼   ► "could I get a different stand for my laptop?"

00:19:41 ◼   ► Like every time, they like fall over themselves

00:19:44 ◼   ► to take care of it for me,

00:19:45 ◼   ► because from their perspective, it sounds like a horrible workers comp liability situation.

00:19:49 ◼   ► If all of a sudden it's like, "So I was working, doing the job with the equipment

00:19:55 ◼   ► you provided for me, and now I'm unable to work," that's their problem in a pretty

00:20:00 ◼   ► serious way.

00:20:01 ◼   ► Yeah, and this stuff isn't expensive.

00:20:03 ◼   ► Yeah, and if you're independent, spend the money on this. I remember when I was first

00:20:07 ◼   ► starting out, buying a chair that was like, I don't even know, an embodied chair is

00:20:11 ◼   ► at least a grand.

00:20:12 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it's like $1,300 or something.

00:20:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's an expensive thing when you're starting out,

00:20:16 ◼   ► but it's like, if I don't get a good chair,

00:20:19 ◼   ► I'm just gonna end up regretting it later.

00:20:22 ◼   ► It's kind of one of these things that you have to

00:20:24 ◼   ► just sort of invest in because you're gonna spend

00:20:25 ◼   ► so many hours sitting in this chair every day.

00:20:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, and we're not saying that the only good chair

00:20:33 ◼   ► is $1,300, but when you spend good money in this area

00:20:37 ◼   ► to get something really, really good,

00:20:39 ◼   ► that is a good use of money.

00:20:41 ◼   ► So it's not like totally required that you can't get

00:20:44 ◼   ► you worked on until you spend two grand on your physical office set up or whatever. But

00:20:48 ◼   ► it is money well spent if you can. And stuff like a natural keyboard, I mean, that's like

00:20:52 ◼   ► it's a natural keyboards like 50 bucks, like it's not a ton of money compared to a computer.

00:20:57 ◼   ► So that like that kind of stuff, changing your monitor height can usually be free. If

00:21:02 ◼   ► you can find some apple boxes that haven't been thinned out too much. That can usually

00:21:06 ◼   ► be free. You know, stuff like that. These small changes, putting down those stupid stands

00:21:11 ◼   ► on the back of your keyboard is also free.

00:21:14 ◼   ► Most of the stuff you can do very easily.

00:21:17 ◼   ► This episode of Under the Radar is brought to you by NS Screencast.

00:21:20 ◼   ► NS Screencast features short, focused screencasts on iOS development.

00:21:25 ◼   ► Every week you're going to find a new fantastically produced episode that will help you build

00:21:28 ◼   ► and enhance your development skills.

00:21:30 ◼   ► Now you can watch these videos on NS Screencast's site at NSScreencast.com.

00:21:35 ◼   ► You can also watch them from the comfort of your couch with their brand new Apple TV app.

00:21:40 ◼   ► All this costs just $9 a month or $100 a year

00:21:44 ◼   ► with team plans available too.

00:21:46 ◼   ► And you can go there right now.

00:21:47 ◼   ► Go to NSScreencast.com/firstcrack

00:21:50 ◼   ► to get 30% off your first month.

00:21:52 ◼   ► And they have a whole bunch of videos up there

00:21:54 ◼   ► that you can watch for free so you can see

00:21:56 ◼   ► what it is like, what their videos are like.

00:21:58 ◼   ► They are very high quality videos.

00:21:59 ◼   ► And then when you pay, you have access

00:22:00 ◼   ► to the full library, not just the free ones.

00:22:02 ◼   ► And they are such high quality videos.

00:22:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I just wanted to mention something

00:22:07 ◼   ► from my own experience that was very similar

00:22:08 ◼   ► to NSScreencast.

00:22:09 ◼   ► it's an awesome tool. And it reminded me a lot of actually of a, the way in which I,

00:22:14 ◼   ► and back in the day, I learned how to program on Ruby on Rails, which is there was a similar

00:22:18 ◼   ► thing for Rails development called Railscast. Originally, I remember being a little timid

00:22:23 ◼   ► to sort of like sign up for things and like buy videos. It's like, come on, I can like

00:22:26 ◼   ► read the documentation, I'll be fine. But I remember one of these things that I found

00:22:30 ◼   ► when I started, that's how, and then ultimately, like I eventually I, you know, but the bullet

00:22:34 ◼   ► I signed up and I found that it was compressing dramatically the time it took for me to learn

00:22:38 ◼   ► because watching somebody else who knows what they're doing show you how to do the thing that you're trying to learn is just so much more powerful and effective from a time perspective than ever sort of slogging through it yourself or maybe eventually you'll get there but from an efficiency perspective from respecting your own time perspective something like this a resource like this is very powerful.

00:22:59 ◼   ► Thank you so much to NS Screencast.

00:23:00 ◼   ► Go to NSScreencast.com/firstcrack

00:23:03 ◼   ► for 30% off your first month.

00:23:05 ◼   ► Thanks a lot to NS Screencast for sponsoring the show

00:23:08 ◼   ► and Relay FM.

00:23:09 ◼   ► - All right, and I think the last sort of topic

00:23:12 ◼   ► along our ideal work environment,

00:23:14 ◼   ► it seemed like we couldn't sort of wade into this topic

00:23:17 ◼   ► without at least barely slightly touching on

00:23:19 ◼   ► the things that we listen to while we code,

00:23:21 ◼   ► 'cause I think one of the most universal things

00:23:23 ◼   ► about programmers is if you go into an office,

00:23:26 ◼   ► if you're trying to find where the development team is,

00:23:28 ◼   ► always the group of people just in a line wearing headphones, that there's something

00:23:33 ◼   ► about developers that we just love to listen to things. And I know you're a bit of your

00:23:37 ◼   ► headphone tastes are quite refined. But I was just curious, what do you normally listen

00:23:45 ◼   ► to? And how does that go for you when you're when you're developing?

00:23:48 ◼   ► I mean, to me, it's it's all about isolation, right? And that's why developers wear headphones

00:23:53 ◼   ► while they're working most of the time, if they're working in an office, because you

00:23:57 ◼   ► You need quiet, you need isolation so you can concentrate. And private offices are probably

00:24:02 ◼   ► way better for this. I don't know, I've never worked in one. But the open plan, which

00:24:06 ◼   ► is where I think most developers find themselves working these days, is so hard to get any

00:24:11 ◼   ► work done if you don't have some kind of isolating headphones with music playing. So

00:24:15 ◼   ► I think working in silence is probably better if you could actually get silence. But in

00:24:21 ◼   ► the absence of that option, when you're working in an open plan, the best thing you

00:24:25 ◼   ► can do is, first of all, if you can help it, find a seat or a desk that does not face the

00:24:31 ◼   ► door so that as people come in and out you aren't constantly visually distracted. But

00:24:36 ◼   ► yes, also then when you're listening to, you know, put headphones on, block out the sound,

00:24:41 ◼   ► and put on something. And I don't really care what it is. What helps the most is if you

00:24:47 ◼   ► put on music that you don't have to really think about for a while. So like shuffle is

00:24:52 ◼   ► is bad. Because if you're shuffling through your whole music library, you're going to

00:24:55 ◼   ► have these constant jarring transitions between songs. And there's going to be some songs

00:24:59 ◼   ► that come on that you don't want to hear right now, so you're going to have to skip them.

00:25:01 ◼   ► And all that is distracting. What I like to do is put on something that is going to play

00:25:06 ◼   ► straight through, no shuffle, long shows or long albums, that are going to play straight

00:25:10 ◼   ► through that I already know, so I'm not going to have to think about it, and that won't

00:25:16 ◼   ► be distracting, and that will provide a nice constant level of noise, not something super

00:25:20 ◼   ► or quiet that will not be as good at blocking out the sound.

00:25:24 ◼   ► And for me, that is Phish.

00:25:26 ◼   ► Lots and lots of Phish.

00:25:27 ◼   ► For many reasons, I've talked about a lot in other places,

00:25:29 ◼   ► so I'm not gonna go too far into it here.

00:25:31 ◼   ► First of all, I just like it.

00:25:32 ◼   ► But second of all, Phish provides these live show sales.

00:25:36 ◼   ► Every concert they do, you can buy it as a live show.

00:25:40 ◼   ► It's nice because it's just different enough each time

00:25:43 ◼   ► that it doesn't feel like you're listening

00:25:44 ◼   ► to the same album on repeat, but it's the same enough,

00:25:47 ◼   ► They're still the same songs generally that you know.

00:25:50 ◼   ► So it's the same enough that it isn't super distracting.

00:25:52 ◼   ► And they're long shows.

00:25:54 ◼   ► You can buy hours and hours and hours of fish shows

00:25:58 ◼   ► new ones every year that come out.

00:26:01 ◼   ► So it provides what I want,

00:26:03 ◼   ► which is that kind of straight through playback

00:26:06 ◼   ► of something that I can just jump in, hit play,

00:26:08 ◼   ► and then not think about it

00:26:09 ◼   ► for the next three hours as I work.

00:26:11 ◼   ► And it's there, it's consistent, it's nice,

00:26:14 ◼   ► I like it, I enjoy it, it's motivating for me,

00:26:18 ◼   ► and it really serves to help me keep focused.

00:26:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's funny, 'cause I think I am,

00:26:22 ◼   ► so similar, I like the isolation,

00:26:24 ◼   ► I like kind of something to keep my mind,

00:26:26 ◼   ► it's almost like I wanna activate

00:26:28 ◼   ► and have a certain part of my brain active

00:26:29 ◼   ► that isn't my development part, but it keeps it busy,

00:26:32 ◼   ► so I'm not thinking about it.

00:26:33 ◼   ► For me, I listen to cheesy pop music.

00:26:35 ◼   ► Like, as cheesy as can be, like,

00:26:37 ◼   ► like, that's what I love, and I don't know why,

00:26:40 ◼   ► I think like the peppiness of it is really helpful to me,

00:26:43 ◼   ► but you just gotta find something that'll keep your brain

00:26:46 ◼   ► engaged in what it's doing without being distracted

00:26:49 ◼   ► by other things.

00:26:50 ◼   ► And you just find it, you put it on,

00:26:53 ◼   ► and then yeah, it's like what does it say?

00:26:54 ◼   ► You plug in and off you go.

00:26:57 ◼   ► - Exactly, and 'cause we work in these long bursts.

00:27:00 ◼   ► Programmers tend to work in these big chunks of time

00:27:02 ◼   ► where some people call it being in the zone,

00:27:04 ◼   ► whatever you call it, this is generally how almost

00:27:07 ◼   ► every program works that I've ever heard of or talked to.

00:27:09 ◼   ► And so you can't be in a constantly interrupted environment.

00:27:13 ◼   ► You can't be like in an open environment

00:27:15 ◼   ► where everyone's asking you questions every five minutes

00:27:17 ◼   ► or you have to get up constantly to go do something

00:27:19 ◼   ► or you have to keep going in and out of meetings all day.

00:27:21 ◼   ► It's very hard to get good programming work done

00:27:23 ◼   ► in that kind of environment.

00:27:24 ◼   ► So anything you can do to keep yourself in the zone,

00:27:27 ◼   ► keep yourself focused usually is worth it.

00:27:29 ◼   ► Good closed headphones, I'll put a link in the show notes

00:27:31 ◼   ► to my favorite closed pair, which is only like 150 bucks,

00:27:34 ◼   ► the Audio Technica ATH-M50X, and it's good closed headphones

00:27:39 ◼   ► with good music that you like

00:27:41 ◼   ► you don't have to think much about that can last for a long time at moderate volume. Please

00:27:45 ◼   ► don't blow your ears out because that's another thing that does not grow back over time. So

00:27:49 ◼   ► please keep it at moderate volume just enough to block out the world not enough to blast

00:27:53 ◼   ► your ears out. Yeah, highly recommended. All right. I think that's it for today's show.

00:27:57 ◼   ► And thank you so much for the warm reception you've given us so far recommend us in overcast

00:28:02 ◼   ► and otherwise we'll see you again next week. See you