Under the Radar

251: Be Where Your Customers Are


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04   I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05   And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is usually not longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:09   So we are kind of in like the coming down period now from the very, very busy last week of the iPhone event,

00:00:18   the launch of iOS 16 and watchOS 9, and the launches of our app updates that use those features.

00:00:26   Man, I'm tired. How about you?

00:00:30   Oh yes, it has been a high-density week is I think the best phrase for this last week.

00:00:36   There's a lot that has been going on, and it's like mostly almost all good things, and it's fun and it's exciting.

00:00:42   And I was talking to my daughter about this. It's sort of like, you know, there's two big days in my work life.

00:00:50   There's the Monday of WWDC, and there's whatever day, the first fall event.

00:00:57   So typically it's the iPhone and Apple Watch event.

00:01:00   It's like those two days are just full on and a bit intense, and it's like I'm still sort of recovering from that

00:01:07   and in the midst of work on those things. But it is exciting, it is fun.

00:01:11   I really enjoy those two days, but they are not for the faint of heart for sure.

00:01:17   Yeah, and the thing is, right now we're in this small gap where the iOS update is out,

00:01:25   but the Pro phones haven't come out yet to the public.

00:01:29   Most people are going to get them starting from tomorrow, and then we'll see from there.

00:01:34   And we don't even have them yet. Mine comes tomorrow as well.

00:01:37   So we might have to do stuff with the Dynamic Island on the 14 Pros.

00:01:43   I think it's going to be a fairly big deal. It's going to be one of those things that,

00:01:49   if it makes sense for your app to support that in some way, and if you're able to support that in some way,

00:01:54   your customers will expect that to happen like yesterday.

00:01:57   As soon as they get their new phone, if your app is not there in the island,

00:02:01   and the funny thing is, you can't be really until the 16.1 update is out sometime later this fall.

00:02:09   But I feel like we're right between these two rushes. We had the big rush last week.

00:02:15   There's going to be a second wave coming in a few weeks when the 14 Pro is going to be super popular

00:02:23   over the next few weeks. And then as soon as apps are able to use the Dynamic Island when 16.1 comes out,

00:02:30   whenever that is, and I don't think we have a date, but I assume it's probably going to be maybe a month at most,

00:02:36   whenever that happens, that I think is going to be another big rush of,

00:02:40   "You better have your apps ready to use the island on that day, because everyone will expect it to be there."

00:02:47   And actually, on some level, I feel very stressed about that, in part because I don't really know yet

00:02:56   whether audio apps will even be allowed to necessarily make a secondary player,

00:03:02   and it looks like we can't replace the now playing, I guess, activity that's on the lock screen.

00:03:11   But maybe we can add to it, and should we have our own secondary activity that floats as a little blob above the now playing one?

00:03:21   And then how does that work with the Dynamic Island? Do we start another one? Does it replace that one?

00:03:26   So there's a bunch of questions that I think we'll have to answer over the coming weeks,

00:03:30   but that's all going to be the stress of the next few weeks.

00:03:35   Not to mention the fact that it's fall, and so lots of things happen in the fall.

00:03:40   We have a couple of weddings that we're going to over the next few weeks,

00:03:43   and different family events, and different school needs and stuff, so it's just a very, very busy time.

00:03:49   But I think it's mostly busy in good ways. I'm curious, how did everything go for you last week?

00:03:57   Because obviously, in addition to just being an app developer who has a bunch of stuff to update every time iOS updates,

00:04:04   you also are, in particular, a widget app developer, and this year we added to iOS new places to put widgets,

00:04:12   and a pretty prominent place to put them on the lock screen.

00:04:15   Yeah, so last week was a wild ride for me, and I use the word "ride" very specifically.

00:04:23   So last week, I had a previously planned family trip to Disney World, which was lovely,

00:04:30   and we're celebrating my dad's 75th birthday. He's almost certainly going to listen to this, so happy birthday, Dad.

00:04:34   And that was just something we'd booked months before.

00:04:40   My hope was that the iOS iPhone launch event would have been a week later,

00:04:45   in terms of rather than being the earliest it could be, it would have been the typical window.

00:04:49   It was not. It was in the earliest window. And so that made last week very interesting.

00:04:55   And probably just as a meta point, it was one of those things where I had to decide that while it's important to do and be engaged in my work,

00:05:05   and it's a very important day for developers, I tried very hard to make sure that it didn't overwhelm or overcome the special time with my family,

00:05:14   and the things that I could do there. And so other than directly after the Apple event on Wednesday,

00:05:21   I didn't really do much work in a way that would have impacted other events.

00:05:25   And I think that was just one of those things that it's just the benefit and the curse of being an independent is,

00:05:30   if I had worked for a bigger company, there would have just been a team, and it would have just been on holiday, and it would have been fine.

00:05:36   But on the Monday that iOS 16 came out, I was launching the apps in the Kinect app on my phone while in line to go and ride a ride,

00:05:46   because it was the appropriate time to do it. And that was the way it lined up, and I tried not to get too engaged in that.

00:05:54   But yes, that was definitely a bit unusual and a bit of not something I would recommend.

00:05:59   But the reality is you don't always get to choose the timings of things, and you just kind of have to roll with it

00:06:05   and focus on the things that are important to you and understand too.

00:06:09   It's like, "I work to be able to go on trips." There's a nice synergy there, but that made last week in particular a bit complicated.

00:06:20   But it worked, and I think our audience may appreciate this.

00:06:25   I was very nervous about the hotel Wi-Fi, because no matter what, I needed to download the GM SDK of Xcode,

00:06:33   which is about seven or eight gigs, rebuild all my apps, and submit them.

00:06:37   It turned out this year there weren't any new features in the GM that I needed to adapt for or do anything with.

00:06:43   It was really just install, do a quick smoke check, make sure everything worked like it did in the previous beta, and do that.

00:06:52   I was so nervous that the hotel Wi-Fi wouldn't be up to it.

00:06:57   I actually set up a virtual Mac in Mac Stadium that I had set up with all of my development environments, all the things there,

00:07:05   so that if I needed to, at the very least, I could VNC into that machine and remotely do my builds and submissions and do all that.

00:07:13   Thankfully, I didn't need to.

00:07:14   That's amazing.

00:07:15   This is the level of preparation that I was going to, because I really didn't want to be stuck there trying to download Xcode.

00:07:21   Xcode will download in 26 hours, and you're just stuck.

00:07:27   It's happened a couple of times at WEDC, and that's why they had the download area where you'd have to go and download,

00:07:32   because if you tried to download Xcode at the Parc 55 Wi-Fi, it would just never finish.

00:07:38   Thankfully, I didn't need that.

00:07:40   The Wi-Fi was actually really great.

00:07:41   I downloaded Xcode in about 20 minutes, and I much preferred to do it locally than up in the cloud.

00:07:46   That was the level of preparation.

00:07:49   I just wanted to mention that so often in our circumstances, there are things that are out of our control,

00:07:56   and there are things that we can make in our control.

00:07:58   I feel like that was one of those, like, this was not a great time for me,

00:08:01   but there were things that I could do to make it easier on myself,

00:08:04   that I could eliminate the potential stress of not being able to resubmit my app updates by spending half a day the week before,

00:08:13   setting up a VM, making sure that it works, making sure all my--

00:08:16   I submitted some test flight builds from there to make sure that all the signing was in place.

00:08:21   There's a lot of things you can do to be prepared and be thoughtful about what you're doing.

00:08:26   As a result, everything went smoothly.

00:08:29   I was able to submit my app updates, and I'd say since then, it's just been great.

00:08:34   Actually, the timing worked out well.

00:08:36   I'm back home now, and it seems like we're a few days into the iOS 16 launch,

00:08:40   and now is the time that the Wave is arriving at the beach.

00:08:44   And it is--because now is the time when people are actually getting iOS 16.

00:08:50   That Monday it was released, but obviously only the super keen and early adopter folks were going to have it then.

00:08:56   So I'm home in time to be able to navigate that so far.

00:09:00   WidgetSmith seems pretty popular as a result of this update, which is lovely, and I'm super enjoying.

00:09:06   Actually, so is Pedometer++, which makes sense that people like watching their steps on their lock screen.

00:09:12   And it was cool to see, I think, both Overcast and Pedometer++ were featured by Apple this week as apps that are--

00:09:20   they like their implementation of lock screen widgets, so that was super cool to see.

00:09:24   I missed that. I didn't even see that.

00:09:27   Well, if you open the App Store and go to apps we love that use lock screen widgets, you will see Overcast there.

00:09:33   Oh, cool. Yeah, I had a slightly bumpy launch because I shipped a change

00:09:41   that I thought was going to be very minor, and it turned out it was causing crashing on watchOS 8.

00:09:46   And this was a few days before watchOS 9 was released, so almost everyone still was running watchOS 8.

00:09:52   So I actually had to shove through two builds during this time between the GM release--well, the RC release, excuse me--

00:10:00   and the public release, but they did both fortunately go through.

00:10:04   I didn't actually file an extra added review request for the second one because things were going through so quickly.

00:10:10   Anyway, you know what, it's not even worth the time to file that.

00:10:13   So I'll just fix it, test it, get it out there, and sure enough, it was fine.

00:10:18   But overall, the only little snag that I think I've hit is something that we're all hitting.

00:10:25   It seems like there might be a bug in iOS where it's not showing all the apps that offer lock screen widgets sometimes.

00:10:34   There's some kind of cache it needs to rebuild or a list it needs to rebuild that it isn't doing that reliably.

00:10:40   And sometimes people report that they have to change the language their phone is in and then change it back

00:10:45   or do certain reboot or reinstall incantations to make the list update.

00:10:49   And so I assume that's just a minor OS update bug, and whenever 16.0.1 comes in, I'm sure they'll fix that.

00:10:55   Well, as someone who has a lot of people who try to install lock screen widgets, I can absolutely confirm that that is definitely an issue that many people have reported to me.

00:11:07   Yes.

00:11:08   The best workarounds I've found thus far are to reboot the phone, changing the calendar in the language and region session seems to very often force it to rebuild,

00:11:19   which I think is easier than changing the language, just in terms of it means that the phone is still in a language that you can understand.

00:11:25   So I've been having customers change the calendar from the Gregorian calendar to the Buddhist calendar, then back to Gregorian,

00:11:32   or if you were in the Buddhist, change it from whatever your normal one is to another one and then back.

00:11:38   And that seems to, yeah, it's like prompts iOS to go and rebuild a bunch of caches or things.

00:11:43   And then the other thing that I did is I did a very minor bug fix update to Widgetsmith.

00:11:50   It didn't actually do anything, really, and the same thing with pedometer.

00:11:53   But it seems like after you have iOS 16 installed, if you then get an app update, it will see the widgets more reliably.

00:12:02   That makes sense.

00:12:03   I think the scenario that's happening is if people got your iOS 16 update and installed it when they were running iOS 15, then they installed iOS 16.

00:12:12   Sometimes it wasn't correctly caching them.

00:12:14   But after it does a new install, I'll probably do a series of .0, with version 4.01, I'll probably do 4.02 today,

00:12:25   and just have a series of minor updates just to avoid that issue.

00:12:32   Thankfully, it's widespread enough to be annoying, but it isn't one of those.

00:12:37   They're just disappearing for everyone, and it's a big disaster.

00:12:40   It's annoying and frustrating, but manageable.

00:12:44   And for the majority of people, if you try those workarounds, reboot, change your calendar, or install an app update, it does seem to work eventually.

00:12:52   So it's not the kind of bug that's going to be with us forever, and it's terrible in that way.

00:12:58   But day one bugs are never fun.

00:13:01   Yeah, otherwise, other than that little snag, it seems to have been going pretty well.

00:13:06   I'm curious, how have you found the customer experience of configuring widgets?

00:13:14   Because it seems to me there are a lot of steps involved in adding a widget to your lock screen,

00:13:21   especially if you do the customization intent part of it, where you can, in edit mode, tap the widget to set the options for the widget.

00:13:30   That, to me, the whole process seems pretty confusing. Are you finding, are users figuring this out without much support or need for help?

00:13:41   So I think it is definitely confusing, and I'm definitely working through some customer support around that.

00:13:48   And I think the one thing that's going in its favor is it is similar to how you do it for home screen widgets,

00:13:56   which there is a much wider user expectation there, that more people have done that that way.

00:14:04   And I think the other thing that's beneficial is many people, in order to know that it exists,

00:14:10   have to have seen some description of it somewhere else.

00:14:13   So in my case, it's very commonly on TikTok or YouTube Shorts or things like that.

00:14:19   People are seeing people's configure and setup lock screen widgets and then are imitating that,

00:14:26   or seeing someone else who, "Oh, how did you do that?" And they can ask that person.

00:14:29   And I definitely took the approach this year of, I've made a bunch of tutorial videos and put them in the app,

00:14:36   and actually I've built a mechanism where I can add more tutorial videos into the app,

00:14:40   like remotely, if things become confusing or problematic for people, if there's a particular issue or hiccup.

00:14:50   Because I think it's very easy to explain it in a video. In a 30-40 second video,

00:14:56   I can show you how to configure and install a lock screen widget, but trying to describe it in words is almost impossible.

00:15:04   You swipe down to bring up your lock screen, and then you long press on some empty space,

00:15:10   and then you hit "Customize," and then at the top there's a space that says "Add Widgets,"

00:15:15   and you're going to tap there, and at the bottom you're going to scroll up to find the app that you want,

00:15:19   and then you're going to tap on it. And then you're going to go up to the top again and tap on the thing that you just--

00:15:23   it gets very cumbersome very quickly. But that's the reality.

00:15:31   And I think video and visual and overall, that seems to be the way to do it,

00:15:36   and it seems generally, as far as I can tell, people are kind of getting the hang of it.

00:15:41   And it benefits a lot from the word-of-mouth effect, where I'm getting the impression that a lot of folks are seeing someone else

00:15:51   with a lock screen widget and asking them how they did it, and you end up--

00:15:54   so there's a little bit of community education, I guess you could say, happening there.

00:15:58   I do wish it was much easier. I do wish it was more straightforward.

00:16:02   Or if there was just-- there are some steps there that could-- especially for the text one.

00:16:07   The text one is completely opaque, that you can tap on it to change it.

00:16:13   There's nothing there that even visually looks like it's an interactive piece of UI.

00:16:19   So that's the one I think that's causing the most confusion in my experience.

00:16:22   Yeah, I would love it if Apple would-- and maybe there's some kind of security reasons why they don't want to do this,

00:16:27   but I would love it if they would offer apps the ability to prompt the user to install a lock screen from a button in the app.

00:16:34   For any kind of widget, but especially lock screens, it's so tricky.

00:16:38   Allow us to offer a button that says, "Create a widget with this configuration, and prompt the user to put it on this screen."

00:16:47   And then have an API call for that, and the user can tap that, and it would show system UI saying,

00:16:52   "Do you want to add this to your lock screen from the Overcast app?"

00:16:55   That would be so much easier, because so many people won't even know this is a thing they can do.

00:17:01   And in the same way that they gave us UI and APIs for adding Siri shortcuts to things,

00:17:08   and I think that would probably help people discover those more than they naturally would have,

00:17:11   I would love a similar kind of API for "Add widget," or whatever new kind of stuff that comes along like this

00:17:18   that just makes it otherwise somewhat difficult for people to find on their own.

00:17:24   Yeah, absolutely. And I think the pattern that they've done with this previously,

00:17:28   and even with his app intents this year, I feel like that was the whole thing,

00:17:31   is you have a button that you can hit that is a standard system thing that just adds it and configures it in the Shortcuts app,

00:17:39   is a way to kind of--would be a wonderful approach to this.

00:17:42   And you just, like you said, you just say, "Add widget," and you provide the configuration intent

00:17:47   that you would like it to start with, rather than just the default intent,

00:17:52   and just say, "Add to home screen," "Add to lock screen." That would be amazing.

00:17:56   Because then I think very people very much understand jiggle mode on the home screen,

00:18:02   or that kind of a concept in terms of they still have to place it somewhere,

00:18:06   or it places in the default location, and then they have to move it, like long press,

00:18:10   and slide it around to move it where they want it.

00:18:13   But that is a much easier thing for people to understand and be comfortable with

00:18:17   than configuring something in this hidden modal menu that you have to know is there in the first place.

00:18:23   And you have to know to tap the widget while it's in edit mode.

00:18:27   So the one that you just added, tap it after you have it, but don't tap the one in the little gallery.

00:18:32   You've got to tap the one that you just placed in the lock area.

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00:20:08   So one thing else that I thought was interesting to touch on that I think is worth talking about with launch dates is

00:20:15   understanding that I'm trying to do this year that is different than the last couple of years is I'm trying to my best to

00:20:23   be where my customers are, even if that is not a place that I am naturally or feel comfortable being.

00:20:30   And so like I've created like I created a TikTok account for WidgetSmith and I am posting videos to it

00:20:37   and trying my best to be there in a way that doesn't necessarily feel comfortable isn't something that I'm used to

00:20:44   or have a lot of experience with but it is clearly a tool that would benefit my app and so is something that I'm trying my best to engage in.

00:20:55   And so far it's been kind of promising and interesting and kind of fascinating.

00:21:00   Like I posted, like I said, I just made some tutorial videos for inside the app about how to configure a home screen widget,

00:21:09   how to configure a lock screen widget.

00:21:11   And there's the one in the app which is actually hosted on YouTube. It's just like a YouTube short that I put there

00:21:16   and then I embedded inside of the app.

00:21:18   And the version of that that I posted to TikTok has like 10 times the views of the one that is inside of the app

00:21:26   that if you are curious and you go to the help tab and tap on it, people will see and view.

00:21:32   And so clearly there is a market for that. There is a lot of people who are interested or engaged or encouraged by that.

00:21:40   And it's been a really interesting tension for me as a developer.

00:21:43   Like I'm back home, I'm doing work, I've sort of put out the few little minor bugs and things that I needed to initially.

00:21:51   And my usual instinct at this point would be to dive back into Xcode, build some more features, round out things,

00:21:58   like get back in there, see, we're at the point now where it's like now that things are out, I'm starting to see where the holes are,

00:22:04   where people are confused, like those kind of issues.

00:22:06   But it's like, nope, this morning I made another TikTok and posted it and we'll see what happens.

00:22:12   And I'll probably do spend the rest of the day coming up with ideas and posting them

00:22:16   because I think the reality is after the initial work is done, after your app is in a place where it is stable and good,

00:22:25   it is probably more important to have a period focusing on marketing than on adding a feature.

00:22:32   It is unlikely that adding one more feature to the thing that you spent all summer working on is going to really change things dramatically.

00:22:42   But spending some time trying to do some marketing, trying to think of interesting and creative ways to get your app in front of people

00:22:50   and to showcase the work that you've been doing since June, I think is actually probably a valuable thing.

00:22:55   And it's early days, I'm only just starting this myself, so I can't say for sure that absolutely this was the right thing to do.

00:23:01   But it is something that I'm trying this year that I think I haven't done as much in the past,

00:23:06   and I've just relied on, "Oh, isn't that fun? Someone wrote about it."

00:23:12   Or it's like something happened and it's almost like these things are happening to me rather than putting in the work and the effort.

00:23:18   Even if I feel like I'm fumbling around and I don't know what I'm doing and I'm not an expert,

00:23:23   it's like, "Put me in Xcode and I'm a happy bear." I love that. I'm an expert in Xcode.

00:23:28   I've been professionally doing this for 14 years. I know what I'm doing there.

00:23:33   I know nothing about TikTok. I am completely a novice who is starting from scratch,

00:23:38   but I'm not letting that sense of novelty get in the way of me trying to do it

00:23:44   because I think it could make a difference. And if it doesn't, that's fine. I've learned a new skill and I can move on.

00:23:49   And if it does, well, isn't that great?

00:23:52   Yeah, actually, I've been meaning to do more things.

00:23:55   And one of the things I want to do this year, and this is probably a separate episode,

00:24:01   in the sense of the iOS app year being like a school year,

00:24:06   where the year just started/ended and now we have to look forward to, "What's the rest of the developer year look like?"

00:24:13   And I think one thing I really want to focus on this year is finding more ways for the app to market itself

00:24:21   through things like I want to make an app clip for a player interface for shared links.

00:24:26   I want to have that sharing promotion be more improved and doing more things like what you're saying,

00:24:34   trying to engage more with other communities and finding my customers where they are.

00:24:39   Because I keep trying various forms of paid marketing, whether it's search ads in the App Store

00:24:46   or I've bought a couple of podcast sponsorships from various shows.

00:24:51   And it's a very, very expensive way to acquire customers, and that's going to always be very limited,

00:24:59   unless you're able and willing to spend millions of dollars acquiring customers, which I am not.

00:25:06   So I want to beef that up.

00:25:09   And I think if you can find ways to organically market, it's both not only is it cheaper,

00:25:15   but it's also usually more effective in both absolute terms of how many people you get,

00:25:20   and in terms of the quality of the people that you get and how interested or how engaged they are,

00:25:24   how likely they are to stick around. That tends to be better with organic marketing.

00:25:28   And so that's an area that even though a lot of that is way outside my comfort zone,

00:25:33   I do think I want to join you in that because as usual, you are the voice of reason and pragmatism

00:25:38   in the developer community. And usually you're like, "Yeah, this thing I just decided to do."

00:25:43   And I'm like, "Oh, man, that's a really good idea."

00:25:47   What I'm looking forward to most is I want to see how you become a TikTok pro.

00:25:52   You're going to start the series of videos where it has you on the left reacting to someone else's widget set up on the right.

00:26:00   And you're like, "Oh, I wouldn't do that. Oh, no, what are you doing? Don't put that widget there.

00:26:06   That's not going to work. That's going to be ugly. What are you doing? You're missing the point."

00:26:10   I would love to see an unhinged Dave reacting to other people's widgets on TikTok.

00:26:17   Sure. I will say, actually, along those lines, in all seriousness, something that I did find was absolutely fascinating

00:26:23   is I went into TikTok and I searched for the search for widgetsmith.

00:26:27   And there were several videos of people using the app in the wild, in practice.

00:26:32   And it was the most helpful user testing feedback stuff that I've ever done

00:26:38   because it was really interesting to see how people actually use it in practice

00:26:43   compared to my mental model for how they do it.

00:26:48   It was just really cool. There were a couple of hiccups or confusions or things that don't work well

00:26:54   that I was like, "Oh, yeah, I can fix that. That's something that I can do and make the app better."

00:27:01   But it's really hard to get that completely unvarnished feedback because if I show my app to someone

00:27:09   and I'm in the room with them, it's easy for me to be like, "Oh, just do this," or to tell them how to do it,

00:27:17   or to engage in that a bit more specifically.

00:27:22   I'd encourage everyone to just take a look, like go to YouTube, go to TikTok, search for your app name,

00:27:27   and see if there's anybody out there who's using it in practice and just see how they're using it.

00:27:32   See if that's different. See if there are bugs or confusions or hiccups that you wouldn't notice otherwise.

00:27:38   And that was really valuable beyond even just the marketing side to see how people use it.

00:27:45   Or in some ways you could create this by instead starting a screen recording session,

00:27:50   hand your app to someone who hasn't seen it before, and then walk away and just ask them to use it

00:27:55   and play with it and see what happens. But it definitely was illuminating, to say the least.

00:28:00   And I was encouraged that there are a few fixes I did in this latest version 4 where I rebuilt my editor

00:28:06   in WidgetSmith that fixed some of the issues that I thought people might be happening.

00:28:11   And I found people using version 3 of the app and encountering the bug or the confusion

00:28:16   or the user experience issue that I thought they might be. And I was like, "Ah, I fixed that."

00:28:21   And that felt really good. So that side could also exist as well.

00:28:26   Yeah, I always appreciate, whenever I hear other people talking about Overcast on a podcast,

00:28:31   or I see people mentioning it on Twitter, people assume that you as a developer will never see this

00:28:36   or never hear it. Just yesterday I listened to an episode of a podcast called "Mosen at Large"

00:28:41   where a blind user was rating different podcast apps' usability and features from a voiceover perspective.

00:28:47   And he pointed out tons of problems in Overcast. And I'm like, "Man, I'm walking my dog, listening to this,

00:28:53   like, 'Oh my God, he's right. Oh my God, I gotta do that, I gotta do that.'"

00:28:56   Like, "Huge list of features and changes." And he found an unlabeled button, I'm so embarrassed.

00:29:01   So I'm like, "Oh man, all these features." And it's very good feedback when you hear other people

00:29:08   in the wild talking about or using your app, assuming you'll never see it, and then you see it.

00:29:13   So yeah, that was pretty great. Anyway, that was a busy couple of weeks behind us,

00:29:20   and probably a busy month ahead of us, but we're here for it, and good luck everybody.

00:29:24   Thank you for listening, I mean, we'll talk to you in two weeks.

00:29:27   Thanks, bye.

00:29:29   [