00:00:05 ◼ ► Under the Radar is usually never longer than 30 minutes, but today we have a special episode
00:00:12 ◼ ► We are recording inside of the new Apple Developer Center here at Apple Park during WDC.
00:00:18 ◼ ► So it's a special week, so we're not going to be as particular about the timing of this
00:00:27 ◼ ► We're joined by Serenity Caldwell and Andreas Velker, who are joining us to talk about all
00:00:36 ◼ ► We're recording on the Tuesday, so the day after the main keynote, and I'm still slightly
00:00:42 ◼ ► reeling from the experience of just being at Apple Park, being at the Developer Center,
00:00:54 ◼ ► So we're in the Apple Developer Center, which is newly opened as of yesterday, as far as
00:00:59 ◼ ► And I'd love to hear, Serenity especially, what is the motivation behind this building?
00:01:07 ◼ ► It is clearly thoughtfully put together and has tremendous capability for what Developer
00:01:25 ◼ ► But our team, you know, has been serving developers and working with developers for over 30 years.
00:01:31 ◼ ► And we've been running all of these, you know, workshops and one on one meetings and design
00:01:35 ◼ ► reviews with folks in a number of different spaces around the world, and including here
00:01:55 ◼ ► show what they were working on in a way that felt secure so that we weren't revealing anything
00:02:07 ◼ ► And the Developer Center is, you know, I don't want to use the word world class, but I think
00:02:16 ◼ ► I mean, I think what's really special is we've got all of these different areas inside the
00:02:22 ◼ ► We've got these smaller rooms, we've got the, you know, we've got Big Sur, our broadcasting
00:02:30 ◼ ► And they're really configurable for whatever we're bringing a developer in for, whether
00:02:48 ◼ ► And also just excited to have you two here, excited to have all the developers that came
00:02:53 ◼ ► from from Apple Park or came to Apple Park yesterday and came to see the Developer Center.
00:03:05 ◼ ► And I'll say as someone who's been to a variety of Apple events over the years that were it
00:03:11 ◼ ► was not in a Developer Center where it was sort of been an environment where for security
00:03:27 ◼ ► It feels like this is a place that was made for me, that was made to cater to the needs
00:03:33 ◼ ► and to the things that I would benefit from as a developer who is trying to do whatever
00:03:41 ◼ ► And it's really cool to come to a place that clearly took a lot of effort to make and to
00:03:46 ◼ ► And so it's really fun to be like, I'm a guest and not a, you know, it's like, I'm not imposing
00:03:52 ◼ ► Yeah, I'm so glad to hear you say that because that's absolutely our motivation as well is,
00:04:22 ◼ ► So one of the things that's really cool about this building to that we were able to kind
00:04:30 ◼ ► You know, we have these really beautiful glass glass windows that are shaded so that there's
00:04:35 ◼ ► lots of natural lighting like we don't have to keep you in the middle of a building that's
00:04:43 ◼ ► We actually you get to be very close to the outdoors, you get full access to be able to
00:04:48 ◼ ► wander out if you want to like take a brainstorming walk or you need to take another call.
00:04:53 ◼ ► But you are still we're able to build it in such a way that it's still very private and
00:05:00 ◼ ► And we also, when we invite developers into this space, we actually give them badges just
00:05:06 ◼ ► So you have access to the specific rooms and the specific places that you'll be working
00:05:19 ◼ ► And can you go into just a small amount of clarification about like, what's the process
00:05:23 ◼ ► for developers who want to come here or who think they have a good reason to come here?
00:05:35 ◼ ► Like, like, how should developers be viewing their relationship with the dev center and
00:05:48 ◼ ► We actually have a lot of different ways that we can bring in developers, you know, in our
00:05:53 ◼ ► centers that we already have accessible, like our center, our developer center in Shanghai
00:05:57 ◼ ► and India, we do regular workshops with developers where we send out emails where they can apply
00:06:13 ◼ ► Who are doing really interesting things with experiences, whether that's something cool
00:06:22 ◼ ► And we're, you know, we've got a lot of people inside developer relations and inside evangelism
00:06:27 ◼ ► and our partnership management team that are constantly just on the lookout for awesome
00:06:38 ◼ ► of course, they have a really great pipeline for folks who have new updates to their apps,
00:06:59 ◼ ► But a lot of times, honestly, it's also just us, you know, we're, we are constantly listening
00:07:14 ◼ ► And if they have a new app update, or if they're doing something really cool with a specific
00:07:19 ◼ ► framework, like I mentioned, we really want to we want to make sure that we're aware of
00:07:25 ◼ ► what the community is doing so that we can identify those folks and say, Hey, you already
00:07:54 ◼ ► And I think now I think the thing I really want to talk about with Andreas is the announcements
00:07:58 ◼ ► yesterday and I think the direction that clearly I think the most like I think my favorite
00:08:11 ◼ ► in terms of getting the sense of the overall structure, but as a developer, and as talking
00:08:19 ◼ ► I think you can get a sense from that that's setting the tone for what we should be interested
00:08:27 ◼ ► I think it was very clear and I think very helpful as a developer that at the beginning
00:08:31 ◼ ► when Josh was talking about his essentially like his vision for the platform is that it's
00:08:40 ◼ ► This is the the future of all of Apple platforms that it in for almost all of the features
00:08:49 ◼ ► It's like it is so much you sort of unification around those those technologies that it's
00:08:54 ◼ ► like if you're using Swift with Swift UI, you're going to work great on an Apple watch.
00:08:58 ◼ ► You're going to work great on an iPhone and an iPad on Mac on tvOS wherever wherever you
00:09:05 ◼ ► color in the sense of that as a direction that is sort of where Apple sees sort of sees
00:09:11 ◼ ► Yeah, you know the State of the Union really is the the session where we kind of put it
00:09:24 ◼ ► important theme from this year that you know our future for developer platform is Swift,
00:09:29 ◼ ► Swift UI and Xcode previews and we really see you know this this vision of the platform
00:09:35 ◼ ► that we we have is that we have this really tight integration between these three components,
00:09:40 ◼ ► the programming language, the APIs, our frameworks and the tools and we really find that by doing
00:09:46 ◼ ► designing them together and advancing them together the results are so much greater than
00:09:50 ◼ ► the sum of all the individual parts and you know often you know we make improvements for
00:09:56 ◼ ► example to Swift you know maybe the kind of like make it more expressive and more compact
00:10:01 ◼ ► because we are kind of motivated by you know a code snippet we are looking at while we're
00:10:06 ◼ ► designing Swift UI and we're obsessing about this code similar can't we find a better way
00:10:10 ◼ ► to express that in more compact way a smaller way you know so that developers can be faster
00:10:14 ◼ ► creators and and you know some great examples for that are things like results builders
00:10:18 ◼ ► or radio types that in Swift that enable the the declarative syntax in Swift UI and you
00:10:24 ◼ ► know this year I think we created this really great all around package almost of you know
00:10:34 ◼ ► APIs in Swift UI to give developers more of what they want and really implement the apps
00:11:01 ◼ ► of that vision that I think I've gone through enough of these transitions that there's a
00:11:05 ◼ ► sense of I like that Apple is clearly committing to this this is like the early years of Swift
00:11:19 ◼ ► was more interesting as a new paradigm that was very productive and I've done a tremendous
00:11:34 ◼ ► with Objective C and UIKit and it was great but I wouldn't say it was necessarily productive
00:11:44 ◼ ► try and experiment lots of things and especially with Xcode previews that you just can't do
00:11:47 ◼ ► and it's interesting now to be able to sort of have this clarity that if you're not Swift
00:11:52 ◼ ► Swift UI going forward that you're you're going in you're either you're carrying around
00:12:00 ◼ ► the accelerators that Apple is putting out to allow developers to do well do things that
00:12:09 ◼ ► Yeah, we really see it as a huge accelerator for developer productivity right and we have
00:12:14 ◼ ► heavily invested in our earlier frameworks in languages Objective C and AppKit and UIKit
00:12:20 ◼ ► and Interface Builder and they will continue to serve us for many more years you know and
00:12:26 ◼ ► that investment isn't going away but we just see the productivity gains that developers
00:12:35 ◼ ► of our future direction and we are hoping to just you know enable them to create better
00:13:01 ◼ ► path you know we know about things like hosting controllers and enclosing different views
00:13:32 ◼ ► just rewrite an app for the purpose of rewriting an app right you want to get some benefit
00:13:51 ◼ ► right and so I think from our perspective it's just really important to have this interoperability.
00:13:57 ◼ ► We're going to continue pushing on that making sure that things work well together and SwiftUI
00:14:04 ◼ ► is a many year journey right we just announced it or shipped it a few years ago and we will
00:14:15 ◼ ► is present in SwiftUI today and so it is just going to be the reality that in many cases
00:14:21 ◼ ► developers will fall back to using UIKit or AppKit directly and so making that path really
00:14:26 ◼ ► smooth and yeah making sure that it just works great is just an important design point of
00:14:35 ◼ ► Yeah I will say on that score what I definitely see this year it feels slightly like just
00:14:39 ◼ ► as I've been doing SwiftUI since the beginning I was doing a lot of watchOS development and
00:14:43 ◼ ► for there it was this massive win coming from watchkit to SwiftUI and so the potential limitations
00:14:49 ◼ ► of it being a young framework were much easier to navigate because it was so much more capable
00:14:54 ◼ ► and so much more powerful than what we had before there but I'm seeing in this year when
00:15:02 ◼ ► manifestation of it maturing beyond just sort of the easy case and the trivial case that
00:15:08 ◼ ► I especially when I think about the new layout system and the new declarative navigation
00:15:28 ◼ ► that I've had to sort of navigate previously and it's very cool to see it kind of incorporating
00:15:44 ◼ ► Yeah in fact since we shipped the first version of SwiftUI really the mode we've been in is
00:15:49 ◼ ► listening to our developers and really trying to understand and learning from them how they're
00:15:53 ◼ ► using it and we also you know talk a lot to our other teams inside Apple when they write
00:15:59 ◼ ► their own apps to learn from them and really what you've seen us doing over the last years
00:16:04 ◼ ► is listen closely to you know what the problems are that developers have with SwiftUI and
00:16:10 ◼ ► then coming up with specific solutions and new APIs to help them and what we heard loud
00:16:16 ◼ ► and clear actually recently is that developers were just struggling with kind of going beyond
00:16:32 ◼ ► We created the grid API, we created the custom layout API, the navigation API and these are
00:16:37 ◼ ► really direct answers to the feedback we are getting from developers and we're going to
00:16:55 ◼ ► Yeah and I think that seems clear that it's that kind of responsiveness is very nice that
00:17:06 ◼ ► delete some code because it's no longer needed that something that is you know some hack
00:17:18 ◼ ► Yeah, when I did the watch kit to SwiftUI conversion on the watch it was a full rewrite
00:17:25 ◼ ► Yeah, it's a great feeling and I think that there is something really cool about seeing
00:17:38 ◼ ► then you're going to have to of course go to UIKit that clearly that is not the intention.
00:17:42 ◼ ► The intention is that over time it will completely subsume all of the possible things that would
00:17:51 ◼ ► That's right and one of the other design points of SwiftUI is that it works great on all our
00:18:09 ◼ ► SwiftUI is really you learn it once and then you apply it to all our platforms and that's
00:18:19 ◼ ► haul and I think it's hard as developers to adopt things the very first year they're announced
00:18:45 ◼ ► jumping in and the areas where I have jumped in I've had mixed success with but I'm glad
00:18:54 ◼ ► I think one thing that developers need to be reminded of a lot because of the communication
00:19:09 ◼ ► it's one thing to be told like in a presentation it's a very different thing to actually see
00:19:12 ◼ ► the result of that and I think it's comforting to hear that you really do pay attention and
00:19:16 ◼ ► you hear what we're doing because when it's been a while since we've talked to you guys
00:19:32 ◼ ► recommend for developers to use it and that's why we try to send this very clear message
00:19:36 ◼ ► in the state of the union and we hear it from developers when they speak to us and we see
00:19:51 ◼ ► feeling that there is more communication coming out of Apple than just from the WWDC and I
00:20:03 ◼ ► just sort of while things are a bit more virtual is the increase in terms of the tech talks
00:20:15 ◼ ► I wouldn't necessarily say that the pandemic was a great thing for many people myself included.
00:20:22 ◼ ► However I do think that it provided a huge opportunity for us to really rethink the way
00:20:41 ◼ ► After WWDC our folks go out all over the world they meet with people they understand how
00:20:54 ◼ ► There are only so many people at Apple and only so many one on one meetings we can have.
00:21:24 ◼ ► However there is a huge opportunity to find ways and develop programs that can reach developers
00:21:31 ◼ ► at scale that have that same the same principle and the same essence of a one on one meeting
00:21:39 ◼ ► So yeah doing videos outside of WWDC finding whenever there's new technologies or updates
00:21:45 ◼ ► to technologies that we want to share finding ways of sharing those best practices finding
00:21:55 ◼ ► where we were able to do online sessions followed by live Q&A our digital lounges you know that
00:22:01 ◼ ► we piloted last year at WWDC and are doing again with many more topics and sessions this
00:22:07 ◼ ► year and giving group opportunities for folks to kind of interact in a text based situation.
00:22:17 ◼ ► of evolve that in ways that we can connect with a larger group of developers more diverse
00:22:26 ◼ ► done in the last last couple of years to try and reach some of our underdeveloped communities
00:22:57 ◼ ► We really want to make sure that this is a collaborative effort and that we're we're actually
00:23:04 ◼ ► And I feel that in a positive way in the sense of it feels like the platforms are heading
00:23:17 ◼ ► is very helpful because it's the best in order for us to best make use of the things that
00:23:32 ◼ ► than it being back in the day where it's like the Friday of WDC ends and not that like that
00:23:36 ◼ ► was the end but the the volume and the ability to interact and learn diminished dramatically
00:23:49 ◼ ► Like our engineers and our designers we get just as much from meeting with you as hopefully
00:23:56 ◼ ► And when we hear how you're using frameworks and how you're using API is I think that actually
00:24:06 ◼ ► You know like hearing it directly from developers and you know they bring their projects along
00:24:16 ◼ ► Yeah and I think in some ways that's the fascinating thing about this hybrid sort of model for
00:24:20 ◼ ► WDC is that I can say that there is something just magical about being in person and having
00:24:26 ◼ ► personal interaction with engineers with fellow developers whatever that is that is something
00:24:32 ◼ ► that is valuable and different in a way that as much as I really I think like the virtual
00:24:40 ◼ ► labs have been a huge success I think I really enjoyed them I was slightly skeptical as someone
00:24:47 ◼ ► I was won over that it's like it was actually super productive and helpful but there is
00:24:51 ◼ ► something different about having that interaction and being able to interact in a way that just
00:25:08 ◼ ► these programs too is that there is something really magical about being in the same space
00:25:13 ◼ ► there is I mean I almost want to be like hey what did you think of yesterday because we
00:25:25 ◼ ► But yeah like the those in-person connections are really special and remain really special
00:25:29 ◼ ► to us and we certainly want to make sure that as we continue to develop outreach programs
00:25:35 ◼ ► that we have really great moments and opportunities for in-person connection as well as great
00:25:51 ◼ ► I mean if you don't even know what I thought about yesterday I think the most of course
00:26:10 ◼ ► a third party opportunity back then and it's like seeing the evolution of this technology
00:26:27 ◼ ► a manifestation of this kind of that by moving everything behind Swift UI you can have this
00:26:34 ◼ ► cross-platform opportunity that the work I've been doing for complications on watch on watch
00:26:45 ◼ ► iOS and that seems like a really interesting sort of example of a manifestation of what
00:26:50 ◼ ► you're of this sense that by putting the energy into creating a new platform that works in
00:26:59 ◼ ► That's right and you know we all have many apps on our devices right and they often contain
00:27:04 ◼ ► little bits of information that you want to get quick access to but you don't necessarily
00:27:14 ◼ ► of the information that an app provides right on the surfacing on the lock screen and your
00:27:18 ◼ ► watch and in the future even the car dashboard that's really great way to make sure that
00:27:35 ◼ ► you don't want all these apps running all the time just to show you know a little nugget
00:27:40 ◼ ► of information and so Swift UI really gives us this great way to have apps you know produce
00:27:56 ◼ ► give us a lot of flexibility across the platforms to apply widgets and different user experiences
00:28:09 ◼ ► it's unifying like with you know in the case of widgets unifying between the watch complication
00:28:18 ◼ ► distant past we you know as all these platforms kind of came up and they were you know young
00:28:22 ◼ ► and immature or early we have a lot of instances where you would have to write the same feature
00:28:28 ◼ ► like three subtly different ways right and it was and you'd have these APIs between the
00:28:33 ◼ ► different platforms that were almost the same but not quite the same and that was very cumbersome
00:28:43 ◼ ► widget system now being more unified I'm looking forward to diving into the new app intent
00:28:47 ◼ ► API as well because that's another instance where like you have this you know large amount
00:28:51 ◼ ► of you know similar kind of boilerplate between the different platforms you have to deal with
00:28:56 ◼ ► moving all of that into not only one unified API but a fairly simple one you know at least
00:29:04 ◼ ► the way it looks in the editor is simple but there's obviously a lot of depth there and
00:29:09 ◼ ► you know no one's perfect and we run into walls constantly but you know that's development
00:29:19 ◼ ► are the same across all platforms that allow a certain degree of code sharing between the
00:29:22 ◼ ► platforms that's a huge advantage and that's something that's very very recent and it's
00:29:28 ◼ ► Yeah thank you for saying that and I think you see us really embracing that in the newer
00:29:33 ◼ ► technologies that we've been developing and you know we want to enable developers to bring
00:29:44 ◼ ► always the same device for every user so making it easy for developers to create apps that
00:29:59 ◼ ► create APIs like SwiftUI that you know where you learn it once and then you can apply it
00:30:09 ◼ ► Yeah and I think it's I really I much appreciate the sense that a lot of the fact that the
00:30:13 ◼ ► way that you're able to do the same code running in a lot of places isn't is because you're
00:30:24 ◼ ► this is conceptually what I want this control to mean and then you're doing the work of
00:30:29 ◼ ► well on a watch that will with that manifestation of that is going to be is very different to
00:30:34 ◼ ► what it's going to be if you're that you know that's running on a Mac or on a big iPad like
00:30:47 ◼ ► You tell us how it should be and then it's our job to kind of find the best representation
00:30:52 ◼ ► Yeah and I think that I was fascinated too in it's SwiftCharts is it isn't a good manifestation
00:31:04 ◼ ► OS I've made charts on iPad I've made charts on the Mac I made charts on iOS like all of
00:31:08 ◼ ► those different places and you do what you have to do in the way that that will manifest
00:31:13 ◼ ► itself is very different I feel like it's a different that you do the user expectations
00:31:29 ◼ ► of paradigm of SwiftUI applied to things that aren't its UI but it's in a different kind
00:31:33 ◼ ► of concept a different construct that SwiftCharts is very much about your it's almost your modeling
00:31:39 ◼ ► data in in in a declarative way and then what the how that will actually be rendered and
00:31:44 ◼ ► what that will look like is is something that then this the system is taken care of and
00:31:48 ◼ ► then for me as I think it's easy but the biggest benefit of that is then it has sort of immediately
00:31:53 ◼ ► and out of the box it has the full like the accessibility the audio graph you system and
00:32:01 ◼ ► all these things that are potentially it's not it's not it's not insurmountable but it's
00:32:05 ◼ ► certainly difficult as as a developer to have to if you want to make it just you I just
00:32:08 ◼ ► wanna make a bar chart that shows something the work that it would take to make that flexible
00:32:13 ◼ ► with dynamic type and have the audio have the audio graph API and all the all those things
00:32:18 ◼ ► in it is pretty substantial and it's not something that is just easy to throw together and to
00:32:37 ◼ ► and from a creativity perspective yeah with the charts we saw this really great opportunity
00:32:43 ◼ ► to give developers a new API to enrich apps and actually make them come alive right the
00:32:48 ◼ ► word is so full of data and information nowadays and and really clearly visualizing that is
00:33:04 ◼ ► switch charts you know the declarative syntax is such a nice natural way to describe how
00:33:09 ◼ ► chart should look and and you know it resulted like you said in in you know this very compact
00:33:22 ◼ ► the same time get the benefit of all the work that we put into it to make it highly accessible
00:33:47 ◼ ► And that's so important you know in the in the area of you know in our show we know we're
00:33:51 ◼ ► two independent developers we don't have any other you know staff in our in our respective
00:33:55 ◼ ► companies and and a lot of our audience members are that way as well and and it's so important
00:34:09 ◼ ► you know it was it wasn't that much work these days you have so many expectations of being
00:34:14 ◼ ► in all these different places having the different platform application compatibility having
00:34:19 ◼ ► you know you got to have a watch app for your phone app and you have to have complications
00:34:27 ◼ ► often will go their own way on like design you know they they'll make all their own custom
00:34:32 ◼ ► icons and everything and you know we've recently come to the religion of of SF symbols a lot
00:34:41 ◼ ► design resources and huge engineering resources and so we can kind of you know amplify our
00:34:46 ◼ ► efforts by just using the stock pieces you provide on these different areas and something
00:34:54 ◼ ► that on their bingo card this year as a feature you were going to announce but but there it
00:35:01 ◼ ► easier and yeah the big companies that have somehow thousands of people working on like
00:35:06 ◼ ► the simple iOS app I don't know how that works but somehow people do it and they are going
00:35:19 ◼ ► building blocks and you know have that problem kind of checked off our list and move on to
00:35:24 ◼ ► Yeah we think SwiftCharts is going to be you know very applicable to many many apps and
00:35:37 ◼ ► like SwiftCharts creating a productivity and just sort of short circuiting a lot of things
00:35:41 ◼ ► in Apple providing that help I see in things like WeatherKit and Xcode Cloud coming out
00:35:48 ◼ ► this year it's interesting to see Apple move into providing infrastructure I guess is the
00:35:53 ◼ ► best word I could think of it where it's rather than it just being Apple provides here's a
00:35:57 ◼ ► set of tools go and do what you want with them it's much more of an ongoing interactive
00:36:03 ◼ ► sort of relationship that Apple is directly involved in our you know our continuous integration
00:36:15 ◼ ► saw that there's that partnership is expanding in terms of the the kind of offerings that
00:36:36 ◼ ► can talk a little bit more about Xcode Cloud and those since you're a little bit closer
00:36:40 ◼ ► Yeah we see a lot of opportunity in building services that make developers more successful
00:36:44 ◼ ► right these the the WeatherKit and and Xcode Cloud are just really powerful functionality
00:36:55 ◼ ► weather it's it's an interesting data set that can enhance broad you know set of applications
00:37:15 ◼ ► to help developers build apps faster and better and and also build better apps by by automating
00:37:32 ◼ ► you know represent really powerful functionality that that help developers reach their goals
00:37:36 ◼ ► and and we are working to make them really accessible to the widest range of developers
00:37:47 ◼ ► continue to expand and to feel and maybe in some ways like some of the themes I have is
00:37:56 ◼ ► it's like start a start a server conversation talking about the developer center and talking
00:38:09 ◼ ► think wonderful to see and certainly appreciate it as someone who is one of those developers
00:38:18 ◼ ► sense formulate the best practices that we learned ourselves doing our own software development
00:38:24 ◼ ► when we watch our own app teams you know implement the apps you know we can learn from that and
00:38:42 ◼ ► So you've hired a brilliant developer that's great but now you have to get them onboarded.
00:38:52 ◼ ► One of the biggest challenges for new hires is to get up to speed with the project their
00:39:09 ◼ ► Visualization helps but given that most companies are stored knowledge in at least two different
00:39:16 ◼ ► As a code intelligence platform Sourcegraph gives developers what they need to drive their
00:39:23 ◼ ► Teams without Sourcegraph need to rely on asking colleagues or reviewing added documentation
00:39:30 ◼ ► But with Sourcegraph every developer can search across millions of repositories to find specific
00:39:37 ◼ ► So when questions do come up you know it's the big stuff that's worthy of the extra time.
00:39:42 ◼ ► Sourcegraph was created to make developers lives easier and today they work with leading
00:40:07 ◼ ► Or just click the link in our show notes to let them know that you heard about them from
00:40:14 ◼ ► And so I think the place I want to wrap up is this we're recording on Tuesday and I think
00:40:19 ◼ ► it will hopefully have it come out and I think if you were talking to developers who are
00:40:24 ◼ ► going to have the rest of this week doing WWDC it's like what do you think are the things
00:40:28 ◼ ► that you'd want to say in terms of how they can maximally take advantage of the opportunities
00:40:37 ◼ ► I feel like WWDC is the fascinating part for me because it's always this is the start of
00:40:43 ◼ ► Like the year doesn't start in January, the year starts the first Monday in June essentially
00:41:00 ◼ ► This is hopefully not the only time during the year but it's definitely the most central
00:41:04 ◼ ► time during the year where you as a developer can have one-on-one contact and small group
00:41:09 ◼ ► contact with our engineers and with our designers and show them what you're working on, talk
00:41:18 ◼ ► things on WidgetKit or whether it's about SF symbols or whether it's about Swift charts.
00:41:37 ◼ ► But honestly, that's why the digital lounges are a great opportunity too because they provide
00:41:46 ◼ ► You don't necessarily have to sit one-on-one with somebody if you don't necessarily feel
00:42:02 ◼ ► We have thousands of engineers and designers who really would love to talk with our developer
00:42:15 ◼ ► I would say I was fascinated last year between digital lounges and labs was the lounges reminded
00:42:21 ◼ ► me a lot of in the old days of WWDC where you'd go to the lab for one question but you'd
00:42:26 ◼ ► end up hanging out there to hear other people's questions, to benefit from just you hear someone
00:42:37 ◼ ► And you find yourself learning and benefiting from other people's interests, other people's
00:42:44 ◼ ► They've had time to potentially explore an API in a direction that you haven't had time
00:42:48 ◼ ► And the digital lounges, that's what I see that them filling that same role of its being
00:43:04 ◼ ► I mean, when we talked about the digital lounges, it was really about how can we recreate kind
00:43:08 ◼ ► of those beautiful happenstance moments in the labs and bring that to a worldwide audience,
00:43:14 ◼ ► And make that more accessible to folks and have a way for people to kind of see and also
00:43:24 ◼ ► In a one-to-one lab, you can ask one question that dives deep for 30 minutes, or you can
00:43:35 ◼ ► And the digital lounges are a huge opportunity to be able to learn from not only our Apple
00:43:39 ◼ ► engineers and our designers, but also other developers and the way that they're approaching
00:43:51 ◼ ► We've got a pixel icon challenge, and people have just been posting all day about the different