0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:03I'm Marco Arment.
0:00:04And I'm David Smith.
0:00:05Under the Radar is usually never longer than 30 minutes, but today we have a special episode
0:00:11in so many different ways.
0:00:12We are recording inside of the new Apple Developer Center here at Apple Park during WDC.
0:00:18So it's a special week, so we're not going to be as particular about the timing of this
0:00:23episode because we have more than just Marco and I as well.
0:00:27We're joined by Serenity Caldwell and Andreas Velker, who are joining us to talk about all
0:00:32the new exciting things that have just been announced at WDC.
0:00:36We're recording on the Tuesday, so the day after the main keynote, and I'm still slightly
0:00:42reeling from the experience of just being at Apple Park, being at the Developer Center,
0:00:48hearing all the announcements.
0:00:49And I think the best place that I wanted to start with, I think, is to talk about this
0:00:51amazing space that we're in right now.
0:00:54So we're in the Apple Developer Center, which is newly opened as of yesterday, as far as
0:00:58I can tell.
0:00:59And I'd love to hear, Serenity especially, what is the motivation behind this building?
0:01:03Because it is clearly not a place that was just thrown together.
0:01:07It is clearly thoughtfully put together and has tremendous capability for what Developer
0:01:12Relations is going to be able to do going forward.
0:01:14Absolutely.
0:01:15Yeah, we didn't just put this up last week, for sure.
0:01:18This has been something that's been years in the making and something that, you know,
0:01:22I joined this team relatively recently in the last couple years.
0:01:25But our team, you know, has been serving developers and working with developers for over 30 years.
0:01:31And we've been running all of these, you know, workshops and one on one meetings and design
0:01:35reviews with folks in a number of different spaces around the world, and including here
0:01:41in Cupertino and in some of our existing buildings.
0:01:44And we've really wanted for a long time to have a space for developers to be here with
0:01:51us in a space that felt like theirs, that they could interact with us, that they could
0:01:55show what they were working on in a way that felt secure so that we weren't revealing anything
0:02:02that they were working on or in progress, but also a space where we could collaborate
0:02:06with them.
0:02:07And the Developer Center is, you know, I don't want to use the word world class, but I think
0:02:13I will.
0:02:14It's a world class space for development.
0:02:16I mean, I think what's really special is we've got all of these different areas inside the
0:02:21center.
0:02:22We've got these smaller rooms, we've got the, you know, we've got Big Sur, our broadcasting
0:02:25space, we've got the space that we're in now to podcast.
0:02:30And they're really configurable for whatever we're bringing a developer in for, whether
0:02:34that's a one on one meeting, whether that's a whole team coming in to collaborate and
0:02:40integrate a new feature or help an already great app become even better.
0:02:45There's just a lot of different opportunities for us.
0:02:47And we're super, super psyched.
0:02:48And also just excited to have you two here, excited to have all the developers that came
0:02:53from from Apple Park or came to Apple Park yesterday and came to see the Developer Center.
0:02:59You know, we've been in the building for a little bit, but this is really kind of its
0:03:03maiden voyage to developers.
0:03:05And I'll say as someone who's been to a variety of Apple events over the years that were it
0:03:11was not in a Developer Center where it was sort of been an environment where for security
0:03:16force for the appropriate sort of things that needed to be happened there.
0:03:20I would say that it felt less like I was a guest and a little bit of being an intruder
0:03:24going to an Apple campus.
0:03:25Whereas this, I got to say, is the complete opposite.
0:03:27It feels like this is a place that was made for me, that was made to cater to the needs
0:03:33and to the things that I would benefit from as a developer who is trying to do whatever
0:03:39do the best work that I can.
0:03:41And it's really cool to come to a place that clearly took a lot of effort to make and to
0:03:45be able to see that.
0:03:46And so it's really fun to be like, I'm a guest and not a, you know, it's like, I'm not imposing
0:03:50on Apple.
0:03:51Apple is inviting me in a different way here.
0:03:52Yeah, I'm so glad to hear you say that because that's absolutely our motivation as well is,
0:03:57you know, we've got people coming in, you know, not it's sometimes it's short meeting,
0:04:01sometimes it's we're working with them for a little bit.
0:04:03And we really want to make sure that we're not just okay, we're shuffling you into a
0:04:07conference space and we're going to work in very and we're going to have to escort you
0:04:10to the bathroom or escort you around, you know, we really want to make sure if you're
0:04:13coming into work with us that you feel like an equal partner here and that it's a it's
0:04:19a place for you as much as it is a place for us to work with you.
0:04:22So one of the things that's really cool about this building to that we were able to kind
0:04:26of integrate is all of the conference rooms that we've built.
0:04:30You know, we have these really beautiful glass glass windows that are shaded so that there's
0:04:35lots of natural lighting like we don't have to keep you in the middle of a building that's
0:04:39surrounded by another builder.
0:04:40They're surrounded by more conference rooms and surrounded more more conference rooms.
0:04:43We actually you get to be very close to the outdoors, you get full access to be able to
0:04:48wander out if you want to like take a brainstorming walk or you need to take another call.
0:04:53But you are still we're able to build it in such a way that it's still very private and
0:04:57very secure.
0:04:58So you can come and go as you please.
0:05:00And we also, when we invite developers into this space, we actually give them badges just
0:05:05like employees.
0:05:06So you have access to the specific rooms and the specific places that you'll be working
0:05:10with as well as access to restrooms, access to a dedicated break room so that you can
0:05:16really feel like it's your space for the time that you're here with us.
0:05:19And can you go into just a small amount of clarification about like, what's the process
0:05:23for developers who want to come here or who think they have a good reason to come here?
0:05:28Is this kind of like, you know, don't call us we'll call you situation?
0:05:31Or you know, like, do you like what's the what's the process there?
0:05:35Like, like, how should developers be viewing their relationship with the dev center and
0:05:40how to how to possibly get in here and maybe for what reasons?
0:05:43Yeah, definitely the TLDR is like, how do I get here?
0:05:45Right?
0:05:46So that's a that's a great question.
0:05:48We actually have a lot of different ways that we can bring in developers, you know, in our
0:05:53centers that we already have accessible, like our center, our developer center in Shanghai
0:05:57and India, we do regular workshops with developers where we send out emails where they can apply
0:06:02to attend.
0:06:04In addition to that, you know, you talk about one on one meetings.
0:06:07So those are some of the things that, you know, we're constantly looking for people
0:06:11who are building incredible apps, right?
0:06:13Who are doing really interesting things with experiences, whether that's something cool
0:06:17with an app clip or something that's adopting the latest features in Swift UI.
0:06:22And we're, you know, we've got a lot of people inside developer relations and inside evangelism
0:06:27and our partnership management team that are constantly just on the lookout for awesome
0:06:31folks.
0:06:32We talk regularly with our partners around Apple, like our App Store editorial team,
0:06:38of course, they have a really great pipeline for folks who have new updates to their apps,
0:06:42and they have a specific forum where it's like if you're interested in being featured,
0:06:47and we may not know about you submit that so that we can get more information.
0:06:51App Store will frequently say, Hey, have you heard about these folks?
0:06:54Like we just got this information?
0:06:56And would you would you be interested in speaking with them?
0:06:59But a lot of times, honestly, it's also just us, you know, we're, we are constantly listening
0:07:05and in the community, right?
0:07:07You know, I'm on Twitter, some of our other folks are on social, and we always want to
0:07:12see, you know, what developers are working on.
0:07:14And if they have a new app update, or if they're doing something really cool with a specific
0:07:19framework, like I mentioned, we really want to we want to make sure that we're aware of
0:07:25what the community is doing so that we can identify those folks and say, Hey, you already
0:07:30have this great experience.
0:07:31Did you know that there's XYZ?
0:07:33There's these frameworks to make it better?
0:07:34Or hey, have you thought about implementing this in a certain way?
0:07:38Or hey, you know, this design is really fantastic.
0:07:42Have you thought about this?
0:07:44Have you my tagline is gonna be have you thought about?
0:07:46Yeah, it's here.
0:07:47It really is a fun conversation.
0:07:49So yeah, there are there are lots of opportunities for folks to come on in.
0:07:53That's great.
0:07:54And I think now I think the thing I really want to talk about with Andreas is the announcements
0:07:58yesterday and I think the direction that clearly I think the most like I think my favorite
0:08:04part of WDC Monday is the State of the Union is that like the the the morning is great
0:08:11in terms of getting the sense of the overall structure, but as a developer, and as talking
0:08:15to a developer audience, like I think the afternoon the State of the Union is that's
0:08:18the real crux of the week.
0:08:19I think you can get a sense from that that's setting the tone for what we should be interested
0:08:24in what we should be excited about where the focus is.
0:08:27I think it was very clear and I think very helpful as a developer that at the beginning
0:08:31when Josh was talking about his essentially like his vision for the platform is that it's
0:08:36like Swift, Swift UI, Xcode previews.
0:08:39This is where the effort is going.
0:08:40This is the the future of all of Apple platforms that it in for almost all of the features
0:08:45that were announced this week.
0:08:47It's very much there on it.
0:08:49It's like it is so much you sort of unification around those those technologies that it's
0:08:54like if you're using Swift with Swift UI, you're going to work great on an Apple watch.
0:08:58You're going to work great on an iPhone and an iPad on Mac on tvOS wherever wherever you
0:09:01all wanted to be you could be there and I think I really sort of love to get some more
0:09:05color in the sense of that as a direction that is sort of where Apple sees sort of sees
0:09:10the platforms moving forward.
0:09:11Yeah, you know the State of the Union really is the the session where we kind of put it
0:09:15all together for developers.
0:09:16We really translate the announcements that we made in the morning for developers and
0:09:20really try to help them understand where we are going and I think you picked up on the
0:09:24important theme from this year that you know our future for developer platform is Swift,
0:09:29Swift UI and Xcode previews and we really see you know this this vision of the platform
0:09:35that we we have is that we have this really tight integration between these three components,
0:09:40the programming language, the APIs, our frameworks and the tools and we really find that by doing
0:09:46designing them together and advancing them together the results are so much greater than
0:09:50the sum of all the individual parts and you know often you know we make improvements for
0:09:56example to Swift you know maybe the kind of like make it more expressive and more compact
0:10:01because we are kind of motivated by you know a code snippet we are looking at while we're
0:10:06designing Swift UI and we're obsessing about this code similar can't we find a better way
0:10:10to express that in more compact way a smaller way you know so that developers can be faster
0:10:14creators and and you know some great examples for that are things like results builders
0:10:18or radio types that in Swift that enable the the declarative syntax in Swift UI and you
0:10:24know this year I think we created this really great all around package almost of you know
0:10:29improvements in the Swift language to make it more readable and you know more flexible
0:10:34APIs in Swift UI to give developers more of what they want and really implement the apps
0:10:38that they are they're looking for and and even better tools you know to make them more
0:10:44productive while they're working on their code and and I think you know the result is
0:10:47really higher developer productivity that you get from this combination of Swift Swift
0:10:51UI and an Xcode previews and we're really looking forward to hearing what developers
0:10:55think about it this year.
0:10:56For me everybody sees it's it's it's an I find something reassuring about the clarity
0:11:01of that vision that I think I've gone through enough of these transitions that there's a
0:11:05sense of I like that Apple is clearly committing to this this is like the early years of Swift
0:11:11UI when it you know maybe whatever was is it three years old this year four years old
0:11:16and it's like the early years there was a little bit more it was more experimental it
0:11:19was more interesting as a new paradigm that was very productive and I've done a tremendous
0:11:25amount of work with it and I think it's it allows a certain kind of productivity that
0:11:29you just can't get previously that you know I've you know I started doing development
0:11:34with Objective C and UIKit and it was great but I wouldn't say it was necessarily productive
0:11:38that there is something in Swift UI that is so rapidly you can rapidly iterate you can
0:11:44try and experiment lots of things and especially with Xcode previews that you just can't do
0:11:47and it's interesting now to be able to sort of have this clarity that if you're not Swift
0:11:52Swift UI going forward that you're you're going in you're either you're carrying around
0:11:57a lot of baggage that you don't need to be or you're not taking advantage of sort of
0:12:00the accelerators that Apple is putting out to allow developers to do well do things that
0:12:04they were previously able to do.
0:12:06That's right.
0:12:07I feel seen.
0:12:08Yeah, sure.
0:12:09Yeah, we really see it as a huge accelerator for developer productivity right and we have
0:12:14heavily invested in our earlier frameworks in languages Objective C and AppKit and UIKit
0:12:20and Interface Builder and they will continue to serve us for many more years you know and
0:12:26that investment isn't going away but we just see the productivity gains that developers
0:12:30have and they when they kind of move into this new world and they transition into kind
0:12:35of our future direction and we are hoping to just you know enable them to create better
0:12:39and better apps.
0:12:40Yeah, I think it's interesting.
0:12:41I mean you know I have this massive baggage of my you know almost 10 year old app code
0:12:47base a lot of it's still Objective C it's almost entirely still UIKit and I feel a lot
0:12:53of that burden of like I'm not able to take full advantage.
0:12:56I mean I guess can you speak a little bit to like you know how I guess the migration
0:13:01path you know we know about things like hosting controllers and enclosing different views
0:13:04in different ways like what have there been advancements in the migration path of like
0:13:08you know bringing your old code base kind of piecemeal into the new world.
0:13:12Yeah, the interoperability between the you know the earlier frameworks and SwiftUI is
0:13:18just huge you know it's hugely important.
0:13:22You know most developers don't start over with a new app every year right they have
0:13:26code bases that are years old like you said in your case and you know nobody wants to
0:13:32just rewrite an app for the purpose of rewriting an app right you want to get some benefit
0:13:36out of it.
0:13:37So the best way to adopt SwiftUI is kind of incrementally right you when you create a
0:13:41new part of your app then you write it in SwiftUI and over time more and more parts
0:13:45of your app transition into the new world and you kind of gain those productivity wins
0:13:51right and so I think from our perspective it's just really important to have this interoperability.
0:13:57We're going to continue pushing on that making sure that things work well together and SwiftUI
0:14:04is a many year journey right we just announced it or shipped it a few years ago and we will
0:14:09continue improving it for many more years and that means that not all functionality
0:14:15is present in SwiftUI today and so it is just going to be the reality that in many cases
0:14:21developers will fall back to using UIKit or AppKit directly and so making that path really
0:14:26smooth and yeah making sure that it just works great is just an important design point of
0:14:33our approach to SwiftUI.
0:14:35Yeah I will say on that score what I definitely see this year it feels slightly like just
0:14:39as I've been doing SwiftUI since the beginning I was doing a lot of watchOS development and
0:14:43for there it was this massive win coming from watchkit to SwiftUI and so the potential limitations
0:14:49of it being a young framework were much easier to navigate because it was so much more capable
0:14:54and so much more powerful than what we had before there but I'm seeing in this year when
0:14:57I go through what's been added to SwiftUI I see a lot of things that seem to be the
0:15:02manifestation of it maturing beyond just sort of the easy case and the trivial case that
0:15:08I especially when I think about the new layout system and the new declarative navigation
0:15:15system that it seems like it is sort of both learning from the needs of it of you know
0:15:20there are those both like those two things are solving problems that I've had to code
0:15:23around previously the things that I've had to potentially fall back to UIKit or things
0:15:28that I've had to sort of navigate previously and it's very cool to see it kind of incorporating
0:15:34the needs as it's growing and I think that's clearly seems to be something that is the
0:15:38intention here that it's continuing to sort of expand it's the scope of problems that
0:15:43it's able to handle.
0:15:44Yeah in fact since we shipped the first version of SwiftUI really the mode we've been in is
0:15:49listening to our developers and really trying to understand and learning from them how they're
0:15:53using it and we also you know talk a lot to our other teams inside Apple when they write
0:15:59their own apps to learn from them and really what you've seen us doing over the last years
0:16:04is listen closely to you know what the problems are that developers have with SwiftUI and
0:16:10then coming up with specific solutions and new APIs to help them and what we heard loud
0:16:16and clear actually recently is that developers were just struggling with kind of going beyond
0:16:21the default functionality especially when it comes to managing the different states
0:16:24of their apps and you know the layout you know options that they are pursuing and so
0:16:29we created new APIs specifically for that.
0:16:32We created the grid API, we created the custom layout API, the navigation API and these are
0:16:37really direct answers to the feedback we are getting from developers and we're going to
0:16:42continue doing that.
0:16:43We're going to listen you know to how the experiences are and every year we will try
0:16:49to come up with the best possible solutions to make it even better and we're in it for
0:16:54the long run.
0:16:55Yeah and I think that seems clear that it's that kind of responsiveness is very nice that
0:17:01it's one of the best feelings I think you can have as a developer is when you get to
0:17:06delete some code because it's no longer needed that something that is you know some hack
0:17:10or some workaround or something that I've had to build being able to get rid of it.
0:17:14It's my entire app.
0:17:15Sure, but don't you feel great when it goes away?
0:17:18Yeah, when I did the watch kit to SwiftUI conversion on the watch it was a full rewrite
0:17:24that felt amazing.
0:17:25Yeah, it's a great feeling and I think that there is something really cool about seeing
0:17:28your commitment to it in that way that it is clearly not well here's this thing that
0:17:33we've made that is conserve the basic case but if you really want to get serious well
0:17:38then you're going to have to of course go to UIKit that clearly that is not the intention.
0:17:42The intention is that over time it will completely subsume all of the possible things that would
0:17:47need to be a best of class Apple app for whatever that platform that looks like.
0:17:51That's right and one of the other design points of SwiftUI is that it works great on all our
0:17:56platforms and so one of the big advantages of doing that and transitioning to SwiftUI
0:18:01is that it's actually really easy to create apps that run on all our platforms.
0:18:05It's not UIKit specifically for iOS and AppKit specifically for Mac OS.
0:18:09SwiftUI is really you learn it once and then you apply it to all our platforms and that's
0:18:13one of the big advantages of moving into that.
0:18:16Yeah, and I think it's good to know too like you mentioned you're in this for the long
0:18:19haul and I think it's hard as developers to adopt things the very first year they're announced
0:18:24because so much stuff in our world comes and goes because it turns out it doesn't land
0:18:28right or we find better ways to do things.
0:18:31But I think at this point it's pretty safe to jump into SwiftUI and I'm saying that as
0:18:36one of the most conservative people in our community about jumping into new stuff but
0:18:40I definitely look at what we have now and I'm feeling that I'm being held back by not
0:18:45jumping in and the areas where I have jumped in I've had mixed success with but I'm glad
0:18:51to hear that you're making progress and listening.
0:18:54I think one thing that developers need to be reminded of a lot because of the communication
0:19:00style of the company is that you do hear us and you always tell us this at dub dub but
0:19:09it's one thing to be told like in a presentation it's a very different thing to actually see
0:19:12the result of that and I think it's comforting to hear that you really do pay attention and
0:19:16you hear what we're doing because when it's been a while since we've talked to you guys
0:19:21and it's like February and it can be easy to forget that.
0:19:25Yeah, we completely agree that the state of SwiftUI is now that we can wholeheartedly
0:19:32recommend for developers to use it and that's why we try to send this very clear message
0:19:36in the state of the union and we hear it from developers when they speak to us and we see
0:19:42it with our own teams inside Apple.
0:19:45It's just ready.
0:19:46Yeah.
0:19:47Just what Marco was saying there I think is interesting too is the sense of I get the
0:19:51feeling that there is more communication coming out of Apple than just from the WWDC and I
0:19:58think that is an interesting thing that I've seen over the last year or two especially
0:20:03just sort of while things are a bit more virtual is the increase in terms of the tech talks
0:20:08videos and not just at WWDC and having that sense of that there's a much more surface
0:20:13area for communication.
0:20:14Yeah.
0:20:15I wouldn't necessarily say that the pandemic was a great thing for many people myself included.
0:20:22However I do think that it provided a huge opportunity for us to really rethink the way
0:20:28that we were communicating massively to our developer audience.
0:20:33The evangelism team and worldwide developer relations as a whole we've been doing lots
0:20:38and lots of one on one meetings with developers over the years.
0:20:41After WWDC our folks go out all over the world they meet with people they understand how
0:20:46their apps are working try and help them make them make them even better.
0:20:50But there are only so many evangelists right there.
0:20:54There are only so many people at Apple and only so many one on one meetings we can have.
0:20:59I mean we even see this in the labs during WWDC right.
0:21:02We would love to have every single developer meet one on one.
0:21:05But as you know I think Tim said 34 million developers this year.
0:21:10We've got a huge community which is awesome.
0:21:15And to scale to serve every single member of that community one on one I'd love to be
0:21:20able to do it but I don't think there are enough cloning facilities in the world.
0:21:24However there is a huge opportunity to find ways and develop programs that can reach developers
0:21:31at scale that have that same the same principle and the same essence of a one on one meeting
0:21:37but are able to help more people.
0:21:39So yeah doing videos outside of WWDC finding whenever there's new technologies or updates
0:21:45to technologies that we want to share finding ways of sharing those best practices finding
0:21:49things like the tech talks that we ran in October and November and December last year
0:21:55where we were able to do online sessions followed by live Q&A our digital lounges you know that
0:22:01we piloted last year at WWDC and are doing again with many more topics and sessions this
0:22:07year and giving group opportunities for folks to kind of interact in a text based situation.
0:22:13We really are we thought about a number of different ways and are continuing to kind
0:22:17of evolve that in ways that we can connect with a larger group of developers more diverse
0:22:22group of developers our entrepreneur camps are another example of something that we've
0:22:26done in the last last couple of years to try and reach some of our underdeveloped communities
0:22:32or underrepresented communities rather.
0:22:35Yeah there's I think we've still got a long way to go right.
0:22:38This isn't a I don't want to be like yes we we figured it out because it's it's always
0:22:43a conversation.
0:22:44It's always an ongoing opportunity for us to analyze like what are we doing well.
0:22:49What can we do better for the community.
0:22:52And what is that also what is the community need right.
0:22:54Like we don't want to throw programs out into the void.
0:22:57We really want to make sure that this is a collaborative effort and that we're we're actually
0:23:02helping.
0:23:03Yeah.
0:23:04And I feel that in a positive way in the sense of it feels like the platforms are heading
0:23:08in a new direction.
0:23:09It's like SwiftUI is a new direction a new and it's this sort of cohesive vision that
0:23:13is being put out that this is the direction the increase in that communication I think
0:23:17is very helpful because it's the best in order for us to best make use of the things that
0:23:23Apple is making requires us to know how to use them.
0:23:26And that's increasing the space in which you can communicate that is so helpful rather
0:23:32than it being back in the day where it's like the Friday of WDC ends and not that like that
0:23:36was the end but the the volume and the ability to interact and learn diminished dramatically
0:23:43on that Friday afternoon.
0:23:45Absolutely and I think Andreas can probably speak to this more too but it's also a two
0:23:48way street for us right.
0:23:49Like our engineers and our designers we get just as much from meeting with you as hopefully
0:23:54you get from meeting with us.
0:23:56And when we hear how you're using frameworks and how you're using API is I think that actually
0:24:00really helps long term in the development of that.
0:24:03Yeah and it's really the role that WDC plays for us every year.
0:24:06You know like hearing it directly from developers and you know they bring their projects along
0:24:11and we kind of talk to them we see what they are doing it is so invigorating actually.
0:24:16Yeah and I think in some ways that's the fascinating thing about this hybrid sort of model for
0:24:20WDC is that I can say that there is something just magical about being in person and having
0:24:26personal interaction with engineers with fellow developers whatever that is that is something
0:24:32that is valuable and different in a way that as much as I really I think like the virtual
0:24:40labs have been a huge success I think I really enjoyed them I was slightly skeptical as someone
0:24:44who loved the labs in years gone by I think I was going into it slightly skeptical and
0:24:47I was won over that it's like it was actually super productive and helpful but there is
0:24:51something different about having that interaction and being able to interact in a way that just
0:24:57there's just something different about we could be doing this podcast virtually and
0:25:01it would feel different than than sitting in the same room with you.
0:25:03Yeah absolutely and I think that's that's where we can continue to shape and evolve
0:25:08these programs too is that there is something really magical about being in the same space
0:25:13there is I mean I almost want to be like hey what did you think of yesterday because we
0:25:18haven't really talked you folks have been asking all these questions but.
0:25:21Spoiler we loved it.
0:25:22Yeah loved it.
0:25:23Love to hear it.
0:25:24Yeah.
0:25:25But yeah like the those in-person connections are really special and remain really special
0:25:29to us and we certainly want to make sure that as we continue to develop outreach programs
0:25:35that we have really great moments and opportunities for in-person connection as well as great
0:25:40opportunities for folks to connect online and not lose any of the any of the knowledge
0:25:45that we've gained and any of the access and the accessibility for worldwide developers
0:25:49as well.
0:25:50Yeah that's great.
0:25:51I mean if you don't even know what I thought about yesterday I think the most of course
0:25:53for me the most excited thing was the just the direction of widgets and the fact that
0:25:59they continue to seem to have expanded and evolved and someone who's been making any
0:26:04complications and again said was watch OS 2 I think was when complications first were
0:26:10a third party opportunity back then and it's like seeing the evolution of this technology
0:26:15from that to now it's even come full circle and widgets from iOS are now it's the same
0:26:23technology exactly that is now being moved into watch OS which feels like in some ways
0:26:27a manifestation of this kind of that by moving everything behind Swift UI you can have this
0:26:34cross-platform opportunity that the work I've been doing for complications on watch on watch
0:26:39OS now is directly beneficial to the work I want to do doing walk screen widgets on
0:26:45iOS and that seems like a really interesting sort of example of a manifestation of what
0:26:50you're of this sense that by putting the energy into creating a new platform that works in
0:26:55a lot of different places these new opportunities start to appear.
0:26:59That's right and you know we all have many apps on our devices right and they often contain
0:27:04little bits of information that you want to get quick access to but you don't necessarily
0:27:08want to launch the entire app for it right and so surfacing that kind of the essence
0:27:14of the information that an app provides right on the surfacing on the lock screen and your
0:27:18watch and in the future even the car dashboard that's really great way to make sure that
0:27:23users can always just get the most important data you know quickly and you know at the
0:27:29same time we do have to be very aware of you know performance and power considerations
0:27:35you don't want all these apps running all the time just to show you know a little nugget
0:27:40of information and so Swift UI really gives us this great way to have apps you know produce
0:27:46you know the snippets of information ahead of time have the system render them at the
0:27:50you know the right moment and do this all in a power and performance efficient way and
0:27:56give us a lot of flexibility across the platforms to apply widgets and different user experiences
0:28:02right that really makes them come alive.
0:28:04That's one area too where like you know the most recent updates to everything the way
0:28:09it's unifying like with you know in the case of widgets unifying between the watch complication
0:28:12and the phone lock screen complication or lock screen widgets you know in the not too
0:28:18distant past we you know as all these platforms kind of came up and they were you know young
0:28:22and immature or early we have a lot of instances where you would have to write the same feature
0:28:28like three subtly different ways right and it was and you'd have these APIs between the
0:28:33different platforms that were almost the same but not quite the same and that was very cumbersome
0:28:38as developers to have to deal with that and you know seeing not only the you know the
0:28:43widget system now being more unified I'm looking forward to diving into the new app intent
0:28:47API as well because that's another instance where like you have this you know large amount
0:28:51of you know similar kind of boilerplate between the different platforms you have to deal with
0:28:56moving all of that into not only one unified API but a fairly simple one you know at least
0:29:04the way it looks in the editor is simple but there's obviously a lot of depth there and
0:29:09you know no one's perfect and we run into walls constantly but you know that's development
0:29:14but to have that all be these now unified APIs that work across all the platforms that
0:29:19are the same across all platforms that allow a certain degree of code sharing between the
0:29:22platforms that's a huge advantage and that's something that's very very recent and it's
0:29:27very appreciated.
0:29:28Yeah thank you for saying that and I think you see us really embracing that in the newer
0:29:33technologies that we've been developing and you know we want to enable developers to bring
0:29:38their apps to you know the device that fits the users needs best right and that's not
0:29:44always the same device for every user so making it easy for developers to create apps that
0:29:49run on multiple of our platforms is really the best way for to enable our developers
0:29:54to be successful with all the users and so that's why we are pursuing the strategy to
0:29:59create APIs like SwiftUI that you know where you learn it once and then you can apply it
0:30:05to every platform and often even reuse the same code the exact same way.
0:30:09Yeah and I think it's I really I much appreciate the sense that a lot of the fact that the
0:30:13way that you're able to do the same code running in a lot of places isn't is because you're
0:30:18doing the hard work on the back end to make it appropriate that I can declare and say
0:30:24this is conceptually what I want this control to mean and then you're doing the work of
0:30:29well on a watch that will with that manifestation of that is going to be is very different to
0:30:34what it's going to be if you're that you know that's running on a Mac or on a big iPad like
0:30:39that I can I'm focused on what it should do and you're worrying about how to actually
0:30:43make that happen or make it the most maximally appropriate.
0:30:47You tell us how it should be and then it's our job to kind of find the best representation
0:30:51of it on every platform.
0:30:52Yeah and I think that I was fascinated too in it's SwiftCharts is it isn't a good manifestation
0:30:58of that sort of that same concept of being able to I've done I've made charts on watch
0:31:04OS I've made charts on iPad I've made charts on the Mac I made charts on iOS like all of
0:31:08those different places and you do what you have to do in the way that that will manifest
0:31:13itself is very different I feel like it's a different that you do the user expectations
0:31:19and even the accessibility story and what you do there is very different depending on
0:31:23which platform you're on and I think it's fascinating to see the declarative UI sort
0:31:29of paradigm of SwiftUI applied to things that aren't its UI but it's in a different kind
0:31:33of concept a different construct that SwiftCharts is very much about your it's almost your modeling
0:31:39data in in in a declarative way and then what the how that will actually be rendered and
0:31:44what that will look like is is something that then this the system is taken care of and
0:31:48then for me as I think it's easy but the biggest benefit of that is then it has sort of immediately
0:31:53and out of the box it has the full like the accessibility the audio graph you system and
0:32:01all these things that are potentially it's not it's not it's not insurmountable but it's
0:32:05certainly difficult as as a developer to have to if you want to make it just you I just
0:32:08wanna make a bar chart that shows something the work that it would take to make that flexible
0:32:13with dynamic type and have the audio have the audio graph API and all the all those things
0:32:18in it is pretty substantial and it's not something that is just easy to throw together and to
0:32:22be able to instead you know I can make it it's quite quite remarkable when I look at
0:32:27the amount of the lightness is for you in five or six lines of code you can define a
0:32:31chart that will do all of those things is just amazing and from a from a productivity
0:32:37and from a creativity perspective yeah with the charts we saw this really great opportunity
0:32:43to give developers a new API to enrich apps and actually make them come alive right the
0:32:48word is so full of data and information nowadays and and really clearly visualizing that is
0:32:54you know is just making it more accessible to so many users and and we found that the
0:32:59the same principles we use to design all of switch to I apply themselves so nicely to
0:33:04switch charts you know the declarative syntax is such a nice natural way to describe how
0:33:09chart should look and and you know it resulted like you said in in you know this very compact
0:33:16code to very very quickly put together some really appealing visual graphs and and at
0:33:22the same time get the benefit of all the work that we put into it to make it highly accessible
0:33:27you know to support animations and to make them run on all the platforms you know it's
0:33:32just all of the the core principles of Swift UI applied again now to the to the domain
0:33:38of charts and it can really make you know apps more interesting and more visual and
0:33:45and just yeah more more appealing.
0:33:47And that's so important you know in the in the area of you know in our show we know we're
0:33:51two independent developers we don't have any other you know staff in our in our respective
0:33:55companies and and a lot of our audience members are that way as well and and it's so important
0:34:00as you know as indies these days you know that the world of tech is so big the world
0:34:04of you know it used to be that one person could make a very simple app on iOS and and
0:34:09you know it was it wasn't that much work these days you have so many expectations of being
0:34:14in all these different places having the different platform application compatibility having
0:34:19you know you got to have a watch app for your phone app and you have to have complications
0:34:22and widgets and lock screen all this stuff now and you know areas that big companies
0:34:27often will go their own way on like design you know they they'll make all their own custom
0:34:32icons and everything and you know we've recently come to the religion of of SF symbols a lot
0:34:38and you know taking advantage of like you know that Apple's a huge company with huge
0:34:41design resources and huge engineering resources and so we can kind of you know amplify our
0:34:46efforts by just using the stock pieces you provide on these different areas and something
0:34:51like charts is a good example where like you know you I mean I don't think anybody had
0:34:54that on their bingo card this year as a feature you were going to announce but but there it
0:34:57is and there's like it turns out a lot of apps have charts and you just made it a lot
0:35:01easier and yeah the big companies that have somehow thousands of people working on like
0:35:06the simple iOS app I don't know how that works but somehow people do it and they are going
0:35:10to keep having their own army of designers who's going to you know manually do every
0:35:15single thing but for the rest of us who are much smaller shops we can just take these
0:35:19building blocks and you know have that problem kind of checked off our list and move on to
0:35:23more interesting stuff.
0:35:24Yeah we think SwiftCharts is going to be you know very applicable to many many apps and
0:35:29we think it's going to be very popular with our developers so we're looking forward to
0:35:32seeing what they're doing with it.
0:35:33Yeah and I think in another area that I feel like along the same way of like something
0:35:37like SwiftCharts creating a productivity and just sort of short circuiting a lot of things
0:35:41in Apple providing that help I see in things like WeatherKit and Xcode Cloud coming out
0:35:48this year it's interesting to see Apple move into providing infrastructure I guess is the
0:35:53best word I could think of it where it's rather than it just being Apple provides here's a
0:35:57set of tools go and do what you want with them it's much more of an ongoing interactive
0:36:03sort of relationship that Apple is directly involved in our you know our continuous integration
0:36:08or directly involved in providing weather data to us and I think that seems like it's
0:36:12not necessarily a new thing but I think it was certainly an interesting thing that I
0:36:15saw that there's that partnership is expanding in terms of the the kind of offerings that
0:36:20Apple is providing to developers.
0:36:22Yeah absolutely I mean I think you said it really well right we develop and we offer
0:36:27a certain set of tools and I like to look at this way it's very much another kind of
0:36:32tool that we're offering right it's just a different sort and Andreas I feel like you
0:36:36can talk a little bit more about Xcode Cloud and those since you're a little bit closer
0:36:39to it.
0:36:40Yeah we see a lot of opportunity in building services that make developers more successful
0:36:44right these the the WeatherKit and and Xcode Cloud are just really powerful functionality
0:36:50that that we are trying to make available to a really broad set of developers and with
0:36:55weather it's it's an interesting data set that can enhance broad you know set of applications
0:37:01make them come alive and and we make this really easy with WeatherKit and and at the
0:37:06same time are delivering a great REST API you know for apps and websites outside of
0:37:11the the Apple platform ecosystem and with Xcode Cloud we're looking at you know how
0:37:15to help developers build apps faster and better and and also build better apps by by automating
0:37:22things like testing and distributing their software and just saving them so much time
0:37:27on the way and helping them in each stage of the development process so both of these
0:37:32you know represent really powerful functionality that that help developers reach their goals
0:37:36and and we are working to make them really accessible to the widest range of developers
0:37:41possible.
0:37:42I think it's just certainly very appreciated I think it's nice to see that partnership
0:37:47continue to expand and to feel and maybe in some ways like some of the themes I have is
0:37:51that it feels more like a bit more like a partnership in that way and in the same way
0:37:56it's like start a start a server conversation talking about the developer center and talking
0:38:00about things like that they it's just trying to provide like Apple continues to expand
0:38:05the the ways in which they're that you're providing support to developers which is I
0:38:09think wonderful to see and certainly appreciate it as someone who is one of those developers
0:38:13being supported.
0:38:14Yeah and often what you can do with these kind of services like Xcode Cloud is in a
0:38:18sense formulate the best practices that we learned ourselves doing our own software development
0:38:24when we watch our own app teams you know implement the apps you know we can learn from that and
0:38:29we often bring the kind of experiences right to our our third party community you know
0:38:35and and a service like Xcode Cloud is is a really great way to do that.
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0:40:14And so I think the place I want to wrap up is this we're recording on Tuesday and I think
0:40:19it will hopefully have it come out and I think if you were talking to developers who are
0:40:24going to have the rest of this week doing WWDC it's like what do you think are the things
0:40:28that you'd want to say in terms of how they can maximally take advantage of the opportunities
0:40:32that Apple has in terms of to set themselves up for success this summer.
0:40:37I feel like WWDC is the fascinating part for me because it's always this is the start of
0:40:41the developer year.
0:40:43Like the year doesn't start in January, the year starts the first Monday in June essentially
0:40:46in my mind.
0:40:47It's the kickoff.
0:40:48Yeah, this is it.
0:40:49And it's like so what should we be doing, making sure that we're taking advantage of
0:40:52all the opportunities to have a super successful summer.
0:40:55Yeah, I mean labs and digital lounges are a huge opportunity, right?
0:41:00This is hopefully not the only time during the year but it's definitely the most central
0:41:04time during the year where you as a developer can have one-on-one contact and small group
0:41:09contact with our engineers and with our designers and show them what you're working on, talk
0:41:14about the questions that you have burning in the back of your mind whether it's new
0:41:18things on WidgetKit or whether it's about SF symbols or whether it's about Swift charts.
0:41:23Those lab appointments are amazing and I know it can be a little bit intimidating.
0:41:27I remember the first time when I went to a lab as a designer and asking questions.
0:41:34It feels a little bit scary.
0:41:37But honestly, that's why the digital lounges are a great opportunity too because they provide
0:41:42kind of that slow onboarding, right?
0:41:44You can observe in a group.
0:41:46You don't necessarily have to sit one-on-one with somebody if you don't necessarily feel
0:41:50comfortable with it and then get yourself comfortability, get yourself a little bit
0:41:55more familiar and then reach out, apply for a lab, have a conversation.
0:42:02We have thousands of engineers and designers who really would love to talk with our developer
0:42:07audience and our designer audience.
0:42:09So we definitely take the absolute most advantage of that you can.
0:42:14>>COREY Yeah.
0:42:15I would say I was fascinated last year between digital lounges and labs was the lounges reminded
0:42:21me a lot of in the old days of WWDC where you'd go to the lab for one question but you'd
0:42:26end up hanging out there to hear other people's questions, to benefit from just you hear someone
0:42:32else asking a question and it's like, "Oh, I hadn't thought of that.
0:42:35That's an interesting question.
0:42:36I want to hear the answer to this."
0:42:37And you find yourself learning and benefiting from other people's interests, other people's
0:42:43problems.
0:42:44They've had time to potentially explore an API in a direction that you haven't had time
0:42:47yet in that week.
0:42:48And the digital lounges, that's what I see that them filling that same role of its being
0:42:53able to benefit from other people's experience.
0:42:56And then like the labs is the other side of that, of being able to benefit, take that
0:43:00learning, find your own questions, and then dive into it.
0:43:03>>STEPHANIE Yeah, absolutely.
0:43:04I mean, when we talked about the digital lounges, it was really about how can we recreate kind
0:43:08of those beautiful happenstance moments in the labs and bring that to a worldwide audience,
0:43:13right?
0:43:14And make that more accessible to folks and have a way for people to kind of see and also
0:43:20get a lot of information that they may not have otherwise gotten, right?
0:43:24In a one-to-one lab, you can ask one question that dives deep for 30 minutes, or you can
0:43:30talk more generally about your app, but it's very focused on where you're coming from.
0:43:35And the digital lounges are a huge opportunity to be able to learn from not only our Apple
0:43:39engineers and our designers, but also other developers and the way that they're approaching
0:43:43things.
0:43:44I have our coding design challenges and lounges too, which I really love.
0:43:48It's been fun watching the first of them go live today.
0:43:51We've got a pixel icon challenge, and people have just been posting all day about the different
0:43:55way that they're like approaching designing pixel-level art and those kinds of things,
0:44:00like watching the way that designers approach it and watching the ways that engineers are
0:44:03approaching like our Swift Playgrounds challenges.
0:44:07It's really great.
0:44:08It's really great to see it as a community level, and it's also really just cool.
0:44:12I feel like I learn things from the way that people are asking questions, the way that
0:44:16people are approaching things.
0:44:17Well, thank you so much to our guests today.
0:44:20Andreas Venker and Serenity Caldwell, thank you so much for joining us.
0:44:24This has been wonderful.
0:44:25I hope everybody out there has a wonderful conference.
0:44:28Thank you all out there for listening, and half of us will talk to you in two weeks.
0:44:32Bye.
0:44:33[BLANK_AUDIO]