Cortex

00:00:00 ◼   ► So this isn't an actual episode out of time, but it's real close.

00:00:04 ◼   ► This episode should be released just before the iPhone event.

00:00:09 ◼   ► So by the time most people have listened to this,

00:00:11 ◼   ► but we're doing it now a little earlier than we would normally

00:00:15 ◼   ► because I'm going to be traveling and I got a lot going on in September.

00:00:20 ◼   ► So we're trying to get this done just before.

00:00:23 ◼   ► - I don't understand how this makes it an episode out of time at all.

00:00:26 ◼   ► - It doesn't. - Yeah, okay.

00:00:27 ◼   ► - It's close. - Is it?

00:00:28 ◼   ► I don't know. I don't agree. I feel like this is more like,

00:00:31 ◼   ► "Oh, there's just a bunch of stuff that's going to happen?"

00:00:34 ◼   ► But that's not an episode out of time.

00:00:35 ◼   ► That's not even an episode out of time adjacent.

00:00:37 ◼   ► You're always talking about things that are going to happen in the future.

00:00:40 ◼   ► That doesn't make that an episode out of time.

00:00:42 ◼   ► I always feel like episodes out of time are made more out of time-y

00:00:46 ◼   ► based on how dated they are due to something we would normally talk about.

00:00:50 ◼   ► That's kind of how I imagine it.

00:00:52 ◼   ► So, like, if we were releasing this episode a week later,

00:00:55 ◼   ► it would be an episode out of time.

00:00:56 ◼   ► 'cause so much would have changed at that point.

00:00:59 ◼   ► Things we'd normally talk about, like new iPhones,

00:01:01 ◼   ► new Apple Watches, whatever, that I think it would qualify.

00:01:04 ◼   ► - Wait, I feel like I'm in crazy town here.

00:01:07 ◼   ► Like, don't episodes out of time,

00:01:08 ◼   ► we normally try to pick something that isn't time sensitive?

00:01:11 ◼   ► That's why it can be an episode out of time?

00:01:13 ◼   ► - No. - It's like, oh,

00:01:14 ◼   ► we're gonna record this thing,

00:01:15 ◼   ► and then we'll release it two months from now.

00:01:17 ◼   ► - But then we would never reference

00:01:19 ◼   ► that it was an episode of time.

00:01:20 ◼   ► We reference that they're episodes out of time

00:01:22 ◼   ► because of the fact that it's obvious

00:01:24 ◼   ► that time would have passed because there's something

00:01:27 ◼   ► that we would have otherwise spoken about,

00:01:29 ◼   ► or are worried that something could have happened

00:01:31 ◼   ► that would date the episode in a way that was weird.

00:01:34 ◼   ► So we say this is an episode out of time.

00:01:36 ◼   ► - I don't know. - That's why we do it.

00:01:38 ◼   ► - Oh, okay, I feel like I've fallen through

00:01:39 ◼   ► some kind of time vortex,

00:01:40 ◼   ► and I have no idea how this works anymore.

00:01:42 ◼   ► - 'Cause like if we did a book, right,

00:01:44 ◼   ► and just did a whole episode about a book,

00:01:46 ◼   ► we could record and release that whenever,

00:01:48 ◼   ► and that wouldn't be an episode out of time,

00:01:49 ◼   ► because it's just about the book.

00:01:51 ◼   ► But if we're doing an otherwise normal episode,

00:01:54 ◼   ► where we just talk about topics,

00:01:56 ◼   ► things that we wanna discuss.

00:01:57 ◼   ► If there's like a long time between recording and releasing,

00:02:01 ◼   ► then it becomes an episode at a time.

00:02:03 ◼   ► Because if we leave it for like four weeks, five weeks,

00:02:05 ◼   ► which we do sometimes, anything could happen

00:02:08 ◼   ► that would otherwise date the show.

00:02:11 ◼   ► And typically this happens around,

00:02:13 ◼   ► I think the last couple, if my memory serves,

00:02:16 ◼   ► has been because there's gonna be some kind of Apple event

00:02:18 ◼   ► or whatever that we would otherwise talk about.

00:02:20 ◼   ► But we can't talk about it because it hasn't happened yet.

00:02:23 ◼   ► - Okay, I feel like the only thing that is making this,

00:02:27 ◼   ► even remotely, an episode out of time

00:02:29 ◼   ► or episode out of time adjacent,

00:02:32 ◼   ► is this conversation right now.

00:02:34 ◼   ► - September is a huge time for a bunch of reasons.

00:02:38 ◼   ► It's busy time, work-wise, so we got new iPhones coming.

00:02:43 ◼   ► iOS comes out, all that kind of stuff, so busy time.

00:02:46 ◼   ► But around these parts, it's especially busy

00:02:50 ◼   ► because we turn our attention to raising money

00:02:52 ◼   ► for St Jude Children's Research Hospital. Because September is Childhood Cancer Awareness

00:02:57 ◼   ► Month. For the fourth consecutive year, the Real AFM community is rallying together to

00:03:03 ◼   ► support the life-saving mission of St Jude Children's Research Hospital.

00:03:08 ◼   ► Finding Cures, Saving Children This year, St Jude is celebrating its 60th

00:03:13 ◼   ► anniversary. Since opening its doors in 1962, St Jude Children's Research Hospital has

00:03:19 ◼   ► grown in size and capabilities for one special reason. They believe that children all over

00:03:24 ◼   ► the world deserve the same chance at survival. Treatments developed at St Jude Children's

00:03:29 ◼   ► Research Hospital have helped increase the overall childhood cancer survival rate from

00:03:34 ◼   ► 20% to more than 80% in the 60 years that it's been around. While these tremendous strides

00:03:40 ◼   ► have been made, 1 in 5 children diagnosed in the US will not survive, and globally the

00:03:45 ◼   ► the numbers are shockingly reversed,

00:03:47 ◼   ► with four in five children in some developing countries

00:03:50 ◼   ► not surviving of childhood cancer.

00:03:53 ◼   ► Limited access to high quality affordable medicines

00:03:55 ◼   ► and the financial burden of research and care

00:03:58 ◼   ► are hallmarks of the childhood cancer challenge

00:04:00 ◼   ► that many developing countries face.

00:04:02 ◼   ► And this is how it is across the globe,

00:04:04 ◼   ► and this is the kind of stuff that St. Jude is changing.

00:04:07 ◼   ► St. Jude is a hospital in Memphis.

00:04:10 ◼   ► It has a very important link to us here at Relay FM.

00:04:13 ◼   ► You know, if you're not aware, you wonder why do they raise money for St. Jude Children's

00:04:17 ◼   ► Research Office every year.

00:04:19 ◼   ► My co-founder, Stephen Hackett, lives in Memphis, was lucky to live in Memphis as his eldest

00:04:25 ◼   ► son was diagnosed with a brain tumor when he was very, very young.

00:04:31 ◼   ► And St. Jude took him as a patient, saved his life.

00:04:36 ◼   ► and he is now an incredible young man who I love dearly and wouldn't have been around

00:04:47 ◼   ► without St. Jude's help.

00:04:49 ◼   ► So that is our personal connection to this place.

00:04:52 ◼   ► But the more time we have spent and learnt about St. Jude, the more time I have had to

00:04:57 ◼   ► interact with doctors and patients and families, it just shows how special a place this is.

00:05:04 ◼   ► It is a very unique institution in America because of the way that they work in that

00:05:08 ◼   ► families do not pay for the treatment and St. Jude also provides food and housing for

00:05:14 ◼   ► patient families so they can focus on the health of their child.

00:05:19 ◼   ► But St. Jude is also a research institution and they share what they learn with the world.

00:05:25 ◼   ► For example, recently in 2021 they did some medical trials that saw a 20 point improvement

00:05:31 ◼   ► in survival rates for high risk neuroblastoma, which is the second most common solid tumour

00:05:36 ◼   ► in children. They produced this antibody at the campus in St Jude and have then since

00:05:42 ◼   ► shared this knowledge with the world. So we turn our attention to raising money for St

00:05:48 ◼   ► Jude for a bunch of reasons, primarily because they want to save the lives of children everywhere.

00:05:57 ◼   ► Childhood Cancer Awareness Month is an opportunity for us to come together in the fight against

00:06:01 ◼   ► childhood cancer because together we can make a big impact.

00:06:05 ◼   ► This year you are able to support the Relay FM for St Jude campaign in multiple ways.

00:06:10 ◼   ► So as always we invite you to make a donation.

00:06:13 ◼   ► Donors who make an individual gift of $60 or more will receive a digital bundle including

00:06:17 ◼   ► a wallpaper and a Mac OS screensaver pack.

00:06:21 ◼   ► If you donate $100 or more you get this plus some special stickers.

00:06:29 ◼   ► If your employer offers a matching gift program, check with your employer if they do matching

00:06:35 ◼   ► gifts.

00:06:36 ◼   ► If they do, there's a form at stjude.org/relay that can be credited to our campaign.

00:06:40 ◼   ► If you work for a big company, it's very likely that they do charity matching.

00:06:44 ◼   ► Ask.

00:06:45 ◼   ► And new this year, if you want to get more hands on, you can now start your own fundraising

00:06:50 ◼   ► campaign to help us reach our goals while also earning exclusive Relay FM merchandise.

00:06:55 ◼   ► If you sign up to fundraise and you raise $1 or more, you'll get an exclusive St. Jude

00:06:59 ◼   ► limited edition of a relay of fame challenge coin. If you raise $250 or more you will get

00:07:05 ◼   ► a very weird and unique desk mat which features the cartoon heads of me and Steven. It's very

00:07:10 ◼   ► strange but it's great. If you may have seen last year that I covered my desk in stickers

00:07:16 ◼   ► of Steven's face, we are now allowing you to do that on a temporary basis because you

00:07:21 ◼   ► will, unlike me, you will be able to remove the desk mat and put it back whenever you

00:07:26 ◼   ► want.

00:07:27 ◼   ► like something out of a nightmare but it's also kind of amazing yeah.

00:07:31 ◼   ► So you've seen my office right you've seen their desk. This year I'm doing the big one.

00:07:36 ◼   ► Oh you're doing the big one okay so that one's gonna get completely covered?

00:07:39 ◼   ► More Steven stickers. So basically we do this is like for every couple of hundred dollars

00:07:43 ◼   ► raised we each put a sticker on some piece of furniture in our offices so my recording

00:07:48 ◼   ► desk is completely covered and now it's gonna be spreading to another but if you want to

00:07:52 ◼   ► do it sign up to be a fundraiser raise $250 or more and you'll get a desk mat so you

00:07:57 ◼   ► you can take it off when you don't want it.

00:07:58 ◼   ► Now the fundraising thing is really cool.

00:08:02 ◼   ► What it does is it enables you to be able to extend

00:08:06 ◼   ► this message yourself to your friends, your family,

00:08:08 ◼   ► your coworkers, and help us raise more money.

00:08:10 ◼   ► This is money that our campaign would never see otherwise,

00:08:13 ◼   ► 'cause maybe these people don't listen to our shows.

00:08:15 ◼   ► And also if you don't have the money to donate yourself,

00:08:20 ◼   ► this is also a way to get involved.

00:08:22 ◼   ► So you're able to say go to family, friends, and say,

00:08:25 ◼   ► here's this thing, it's an amazing institution,

00:08:28 ◼   ► would you like to donate some money?

00:08:30 ◼   ► Go to stjude.org/relay, you can donate

00:08:33 ◼   ► and find out more about fundraising.

00:08:34 ◼   ► So that's what's going on there.

00:08:36 ◼   ► I wanna talk about the podcastathon.

00:08:38 ◼   ► So this will be the fourth podcastathon,

00:08:42 ◼   ► which is an eight hour event that we do.

00:08:45 ◼   ► It's a variety show, features many Relay FM hosts,

00:08:48 ◼   ► special guests, me and Steven host it together.

00:08:51 ◼   ► This year it's gonna be on September 16th,

00:08:53 ◼   ► from 12 to 8 p.m. US Eastern Time.

00:08:56 ◼   ► Now, the plan is we'll be back in person.

00:09:00 ◼   ► - Wow, okay.

00:09:01 ◼   ► - So the first one we did in person,

00:09:04 ◼   ► then we had to do two remote.

00:09:05 ◼   ► So me here in Mega Studio, Steven at St. Jude.

00:09:08 ◼   ► We really wanted to do it last year,

00:09:13 ◼   ► but we just couldn't make it work.

00:09:14 ◼   ► It was very unfortunate with travel restrictions,

00:09:17 ◼   ► 'cause the travel restrictions ended in October,

00:09:20 ◼   ► so we kind of just missed out on it.

00:09:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was a heartbreakingly close call last year.

00:09:26 ◼   ► I remember that, that was awful.

00:09:27 ◼   ► - It was rough, it was rough.

00:09:29 ◼   ► But this year, the plan is that I'll be back in Memphis

00:09:33 ◼   ► and we're gonna do it live together.

00:09:35 ◼   ► I'm terrified because of my last big trip to America.

00:09:40 ◼   ► So I have like real kind of COVID anxiety right now.

00:09:44 ◼   ► We have tried to plan for all of the potential contingencies

00:09:49 ◼   ► but really we're planning for one thing,

00:09:52 ◼   ► which is doing it in person.

00:09:54 ◼   ► And if it doesn't work, we'll just fall back.

00:09:57 ◼   ► But it's kind of like, there's no point,

00:09:59 ◼   ► I think, going deep on all the contingency plans

00:10:02 ◼   ► because there's so many variables for like,

00:10:06 ◼   ► what if I get COVID or what if Steven gets COVID

00:10:10 ◼   ► or what if somebody in our family's had-

00:10:11 ◼   ► - Layover in Austin, you're gonna record from there?

00:10:14 ◼   ► You never know.

00:10:15 ◼   ► - We are doing a layover.

00:10:16 ◼   ► Chicago the way there, Dallas the way back,

00:10:18 ◼   ► another 90 minute layover on the way back.

00:10:20 ◼   ► So I think we'll be spending our third night in Dallas.

00:10:23 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:10:24 ◼   ► - Right, I see no other potential here.

00:10:27 ◼   ► We will be in Dallas for the third time this year.

00:10:29 ◼   ► I'm saying it right now, I'll report back on this later,

00:10:32 ◼   ► but I am convinced that we will be in Dallas again.

00:10:34 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:10:35 ◼   ► It's just, I see no other way.

00:10:37 ◼   ► But it's kind of one of those things where

00:10:39 ◼   ► we had a conversation as a group

00:10:40 ◼   ► because we work with a wonderful team of people

00:10:43 ◼   ► at St. Jude who help us plan these events.

00:10:46 ◼   ► And we're like, okay, well, we'll just see what happens.

00:10:49 ◼   ► 'Cause I think it's too complicated

00:10:52 ◼   ► to try and specifically plan out every contingency.

00:10:55 ◼   ► It's just like high level, this is what we'll do,

00:10:58 ◼   ► but we're all just like headstrong

00:10:59 ◼   ► on we're gonna be together.

00:11:01 ◼   ► We're gonna bring in a bunch of our favorite elements

00:11:03 ◼   ► of the past three events, especially the last two,

00:11:07 ◼   ► because I've done things and Steven's done things,

00:11:10 ◼   ► but we've not been able to do those things together.

00:11:12 ◼   ► So like last year, he had this big challenge wheel

00:11:15 ◼   ► that he would spin and it would land on certain things

00:11:18 ◼   ► to have to do them. I've never got to spin the wheel. And we're also, we're constructing

00:11:23 ◼   ► a balloon room.

00:11:24 ◼   ► Ah, balloon room! Yeah, I was gonna ask, like, there better be a balloon room.

00:11:27 ◼   ► So I'm actually really excited. It's gonna be levelled up in a fun way. So I will still

00:11:34 ◼   ► have my balloon room, but Steven will be able to experience the balloon room, which I think

00:11:38 ◼   ► he's actually very scared of. I think he doesn't like the idea of the being surrounded by balloons.

00:11:43 ◼   ► It always would freak him out when I would dive in them. So we'll see what that would

00:11:46 ◼   ► be like.

00:11:47 ◼   ► gonna be like a greatest hits at the last four years which I'm very excited about.

00:11:53 ◼   ► It actually also might be the day that iPhones come out. It's own little thing.

00:11:57 ◼   ► Yeah it is it is absolutely insane how much work the two of you put into this podcast

00:12:03 ◼   ► athon every year and yeah getting there in person to do it together this year like I'm

00:12:09 ◼   ► so glad that that's gonna work out again it was just it was so heartbreaking last time

00:12:13 ◼   ► that you had to do it remotely, so I'm very happy about that.

00:12:17 ◼   ► I'll be curious to see Steven's apparent fear of balloons explored,

00:12:21 ◼   ► and that can always be a nice motivator for people to donate.

00:12:24 ◼   ► This man is afraid of balloons!

00:12:26 ◼   ► Donate, and we had a balloon, right?

00:12:28 ◼   ► Like, that's his classic.

00:12:29 ◼   ► - Oh, it's like how I always have to eat those disgusting jelly beans.

00:12:32 ◼   ► And like, give more money and Myke eats the, like, jelly beans

00:12:36 ◼   ► that are flavored like dishwater and rotten eggs.

00:12:39 ◼   ► It's like, great, I'll just—I'll keep eating this.

00:12:41 ◼   ► - If there's one fundraising crowd pleaser,

00:12:43 ◼   ► It's making someone uncomfortable in some way that goes along with it.

00:12:47 ◼   ► Right?

00:12:47 ◼   ► People, people just love it for the, for the fundraisers.

00:12:50 ◼   ► I hate the thought of it, but at the same time, it donates money for childhood

00:12:54 ◼   ► cancer, so I'm like, all right, I'll do it then I suppose, you know, like,

00:12:58 ◼   ► I'll suffer this.

00:13:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:00 ◼   ► People like people suffering for a cause.

00:13:03 ◼   ► So that's, that's, that's what that is.

00:13:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:04 ◼   ► They've got so much happening September.

00:13:07 ◼   ► We're doing a bunch of extra streams.

00:13:08 ◼   ► For the first time this year, we're going to be doing a campaign closing

00:13:11 ◼   ► stream at the end of September.

00:13:13 ◼   ► where we announce the final total and all that kind of stuff.

00:13:16 ◼   ► We've got a bunch of milestone streams that we're unlocking

00:13:19 ◼   ► with different Relay FM hosts and we're playing video games and that kind of stuff.

00:13:22 ◼   ► All of this is over at sttude.org/relay

00:13:25 ◼   ► so please go and check it out.

00:13:27 ◼   ► Go to sttude.org/relay, you can learn more,

00:13:30 ◼   ► you can donate, you can sign up to fundraise

00:13:32 ◼   ► and let's cure childhood cancer together.

00:13:34 ◼   ► This episode of Cortex is brought to you by Squarespace.

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00:15:44 ◼   ► and all of Real AFM.

00:15:45 ◼   ► Do you use Git now?

00:15:48 ◼   ► - Oh, no. (laughs)

00:15:50 ◼   ► I made a terrible mistake.

00:15:52 ◼   ► - You've ruined our subreddit.

00:15:54 ◼   ► You've ruined it. - I didn't ruin it.

00:15:55 ◼   ► I just, I didn't know what I was asking, so.

00:15:58 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:16:00 ◼   ► - Okay, so listeners who don't go to the subreddit,

00:16:03 ◼   ► previously on Cortex, Gray was discussing

00:16:07 ◼   ► his syncing problems with Obsidian,

00:16:10 ◼   ► and Myke was bullying him in an entirely correct way.

00:16:14 ◼   ► And so we had this big conversation about like,

00:16:16 ◼   ► how to have a workflow in my writing program

00:16:20 ◼   ► that syncs between me and my assistant

00:16:23 ◼   ► that can be used for making changes on PDFs

00:16:27 ◼   ► and a whole bunch of stuff.

00:16:27 ◼   ► Anyway, the fundamental question is,

00:16:30 ◼   ► "Hey, I would like a text document that synchronizes between me and my assistant,

00:16:36 ◼   ► and there are reasons why it is difficult to do in my writing app of choice, Obsidian."

00:16:42 ◼   ► And so on the subreddit, of course, very helpful people were proposing suggestions,

00:16:50 ◼   ► and one of them was Git. And Git is one of these things of like, "I've heard about Git. I've heard

00:16:57 ◼   ► programmer friends talk about this thing for you know you like you push and you pull on the gits

00:17:03 ◼   ► there's like a tree and the tree merges there's a hub is there a hub i don't know i think there's

00:17:13 ◼   ► forks and pulls and and requests requests yeah there's like stuff i don't know it's just one of

00:17:19 ◼   ► these things like you're aware you can't have programmer friends without being vaguely aware

00:17:23 ◼   ► of like, oh, Git is a thing that programmers use,

00:17:27 ◼   ► and it's, oh, programmers don't be angry,

00:17:30 ◼   ► it's like a way to collaborate for programmers

00:17:33 ◼   ► on source code, I guess.

00:17:35 ◼   ► - Well, it does, as far as I'm aware.

00:17:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, as far as I'm aware, too, but Myke,

00:17:38 ◼   ► on the internet, you never know, right?

00:17:40 ◼   ► - Oh, come on. (laughing)

00:17:42 ◼   ► Who could be mad about that?

00:17:43 ◼   ► I also, like Federico, I friend Federico

00:17:46 ◼   ► who writes wonderful iOS reviews every year,

00:17:49 ◼   ► I know that he started using Git

00:17:52 ◼   ► as a version control system and a way to share

00:17:57 ◼   ► his reviews with proofreaders and stuff like that.

00:18:01 ◼   ► I know that he started doing that.

00:18:02 ◼   ► - Oh, okay, interesting.

00:18:03 ◼   ► - Multiple years ago.

00:18:04 ◼   ► It's like a backup system and like a checking in system,

00:18:08 ◼   ► like similarly to how programmers use it.

00:18:10 ◼   ► Like, this part's done, do you wanna look at it?

00:18:14 ◼   ► And it's got version control and history

00:18:16 ◼   ► and all that kind of stuff.

00:18:18 ◼   ► So it ends up being a, I think, pretty decent tool

00:18:22 ◼   ► that people use for collaboration of things

00:18:24 ◼   ► other than coding, just because of the way that it works

00:18:28 ◼   ► from a fundamental level.

00:18:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was one of those moments

00:18:31 ◼   ► where someone suggested, they said,

00:18:32 ◼   ► "Hey, have you looked into Git?"

00:18:34 ◼   ► And I said, "Oh, I would like to know more."

00:18:36 ◼   ► And boy, did I get more.

00:18:38 ◼   ► And I went a bit quick.

00:18:40 ◼   ► People were very helpful,

00:18:42 ◼   ► but it also became very clear, very fast, like,

00:18:46 ◼   ► Okay, I think this is one of those tools where if you are a programmer who is already familiar

00:18:52 ◼   ► with this, it is a great tool that is totally useful in a lot of circumstances.

00:18:58 ◼   ► But if you're not already familiar with this, this is like, "Oh God, here's another layer

00:19:04 ◼   ► of thing that can go wrong."

00:19:07 ◼   ► And if I'm just using it in this one scenario, it just it struck me as dangerous overkill

00:19:13 ◼   ► for the current situation.

00:19:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, it seems like a big learning curve, I think.

00:19:17 ◼   ► Like if you're coming in cold,

00:19:19 ◼   ► we use GitHub for the management

00:19:22 ◼   ► of our software development projects,

00:19:25 ◼   ► every layer found, like we run our own systems,

00:19:27 ◼   ► we maintain our own publishing systems

00:19:29 ◼   ► and ad platform system and that kind of stuff.

00:19:32 ◼   ► So I have to use GitHub every now and then, right?

00:19:35 ◼   ► Which uses Git, but it's its own tool, right?

00:19:37 ◼   ► It's Git fundamentally,

00:19:39 ◼   ► but then it has its own stuff on top.

00:19:41 ◼   ► And like, I can see how good it is,

00:19:43 ◼   ► but oh boy does it confuse me when I'm in there.

00:19:45 ◼   ► - Oh, so you're actually hands on pushing and pulling

00:19:49 ◼   ► and forking and fitting or whatever?

00:19:51 ◼   ► - I don't do the pushing and the pulling

00:19:51 ◼   ► and the forking and the, I use issues,

00:19:54 ◼   ► which is just like a bug tracking request system.

00:19:57 ◼   ► I do no forking or hubbing or anything like that,

00:20:01 ◼   ► but I see that it happens.

00:20:03 ◼   ► I see that the push is merged and you know,

00:20:07 ◼   ► all that kind of stuff.

00:20:08 ◼   ► - The push is merged and you know,

00:20:12 ◼   ► all that kind of stuff. - You know.

00:20:13 ◼   ► And then the other plots happen.

00:20:15 ◼   ► Everything we said, and that's the one you take.

00:20:18 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:20:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I want to thank everybody

00:20:22 ◼   ► who was trying to convince me to use Git.

00:20:24 ◼   ► I think it's overkill.

00:20:25 ◼   ► It's also one of those situations where,

00:20:28 ◼   ► we talked about this with Dropbox for me,

00:20:30 ◼   ► and it was like you were discussing

00:20:32 ◼   ► like Google Notes as well.

00:20:33 ◼   ► There's an additional layer, which is always when

00:20:36 ◼   ► it has to be a tool not just for you,

00:20:38 ◼   ► but a tool when you're working with multiple people.

00:20:40 ◼   ► And it was one of these things of like,

00:20:43 ◼   ► I might be able to use Git, but selling this as a,

00:20:47 ◼   ► hey, here's what we're gonna do between the two of us

00:20:50 ◼   ► with me and my assistant.

00:20:51 ◼   ► I was like, this is completely out of the question.

00:20:54 ◼   ► There is no way this is gonna be the right tool

00:20:56 ◼   ► for the two of us.

00:20:57 ◼   ► - I saw somebody ask on Twitter,

00:20:59 ◼   ► would iCloud file sharing not work for this?

00:21:02 ◼   ► - Okay, so here's the current state of affairs.

00:21:05 ◼   ► Someone else mentioned that on the Reddit.

00:21:08 ◼   ► And it's one of these interesting moments

00:21:10 ◼   ► because I realized that I had gotten something into my head

00:21:15 ◼   ► that wasn't true.

00:21:17 ◼   ► Sometimes when you've used systems for a long time,

00:21:19 ◼   ► you can have this idea of, oh, I know the way things work

00:21:23 ◼   ► because I know how a tool that I've used for years works,

00:21:27 ◼   ► and you don't realize, oh, it's actually changed since then,

00:21:30 ◼   ► and so you have artificial restrictions in your brain.

00:21:32 ◼   ► So in iCloud Drive, there are these,

00:21:36 ◼   ► I don't even know what to call them.

00:21:38 ◼   ► Apple has a specific name for them,

00:21:40 ◼   ► but there are like these folders that your applications use,

00:21:44 ◼   ► which is sort of different from,

00:21:46 ◼   ► oh, you just have a folder.

00:21:48 ◼   ► And often they're putting like,

00:21:49 ◼   ► oh, these are files that are not really meant

00:21:52 ◼   ► for the user to access.

00:21:54 ◼   ► It's like a bunch of stuff that the app

00:21:55 ◼   ► just keeps for itself.

00:21:56 ◼   ► - Well, some apps keep all of your projects in there, though.

00:21:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:00 ◼   ► But like sometimes the apps are just using it

00:22:01 ◼   ► for themselves, sometimes it's,

00:22:03 ◼   ► oh, hey, you can actually put files in this.

00:22:06 ◼   ► And so this exists at the root level of iCloud Drive.

00:22:09 ◼   ► And in my head, precisely because of my long experience

00:22:12 ◼   ► with Apple and the way iCloud Drive used to work,

00:22:16 ◼   ► I always filed those in my head as like,

00:22:20 ◼   ► oh, these are like library folders.

00:22:22 ◼   ► They're not really here for the user.

00:22:24 ◼   ► You just interact with them entirely through the app.

00:22:27 ◼   ► And I have a separate folder,

00:22:29 ◼   ► which is acting like basically Dropbox,

00:22:32 ◼   ► where it's like gray's iCloud stuff.

00:22:34 ◼   ► And this just has a bunch of folders in there.

00:22:36 ◼   ► And I had artificially in my head-

00:22:38 ◼   ► something about gray is like gray's iCloud stuff keep out top secret yeah exactly no boys allowed

00:22:44 ◼   ► yeah it was in kind of gross i think was the sign um but good old covenant hops but so anyway like i

00:22:55 ◼   ► just i had divided in my head this totally artificial line which i realized through the

00:23:00 ◼   ► conversation on reddit so again very helpful to everybody who was leaving comments i was like

00:23:04 ◼   ► wait a minute, I think I can just dig into this Obsidian iCloud folder where I'm syncing stuff.

00:23:10 ◼   ► And can I just share a single subfolder of this with my assistant? And it turns out, yes, I can.

00:23:19 ◼   ► So I can, I can go into there and just share a folder with her. Now, we've currently run into

00:23:26 ◼   ► one more technical problem, which I was literally checking in as we were putting the show notes

00:23:31 ◼   ► together this morning. I'm like, "What's the current status of us trying to figure this out?"

00:23:34 ◼   ► So the current limitation that we don't know if it's technical or not is,

00:23:40 ◼   ► "My assistant will be doing this work on a Windows machine."

00:23:43 ◼   ► Why the sharp intake of breath there, Myke?

00:23:48 ◼   ► I would not trust that at all.

00:23:51 ◼   ► Okay, so here's the fun we've been having, because I literally haven't had my hands touch a Windows

00:23:58 ◼   ► computer in greater than a decade.

00:24:00 ◼   ► Like the last time I used a Windows computer, I was working as a teacher.

00:24:04 ◼   ► And so we were going through a bunch of steps, but I figured out, oh, Apple

00:24:08 ◼   ► makes a program that they call iCloud for Windows, which, and now this is,

00:24:16 ◼   ► this is where we get into it.

00:24:17 ◼   ► I'm trying to help my assistant with like technical support on her Windows

00:24:21 ◼   ► machine upon which I know nothing.

00:24:24 ◼   ► So it feels like I'm a blind person, like, reaching into the void and being like,

00:24:29 ◼   ► "Oh, maybe this box goes over there? I don't have any idea."

00:24:32 ◼   ► She sent me screenshots and like, it was so funny to get a screenshot of just like,

00:24:36 ◼   ► "Oh, here's what I'm looking at." And like, I know what nothing on the screen is.

00:24:40 ◼   ► I don't even know if I'm looking at a file browser. Like, what is this? I have no idea.

00:24:43 ◼   ► So she is able to access the files on her Windows computer.

00:24:49 ◼   ► But what we haven't been able to figure out is there doesn't seem any way for her to

00:24:53 ◼   ► edit them in place. Like she has to make a copy, she can edit the copy, then delete

00:25:00 ◼   ► the original and rename the copy the same as the original.

00:25:04 ◼   ► Don't like that at all.

00:25:06 ◼   ► I know, right? So I'm not exactly sure what the current state of this project is, but it does turn out, yes, in theory, you can share subfolders of any iCloud

00:25:22 ◼   ► folder, even those weird app ones which I just didn't think was the case, with

00:25:26 ◼   ► another user, even if they're on Windows. So my question is, now look I'm not

00:25:32 ◼   ► trying to make anyone change platform right? How impossible would it be for

00:25:37 ◼   ► your assistant to do this work on an iPad? So we have also been exploring iPad

00:25:41 ◼   ► as an option. I think that that's the way to go. I would tell you right now, do not

00:25:46 ◼   ► trust the Windows tool. No, you don't trust it? I just don't. Okay so iCloud

00:25:50 ◼   ► file sharing has been a problem on the Mac in the past, right? Like it has

00:25:57 ◼   ► suffered from unreliability which is a this is one of those things for me. Do

00:26:02 ◼   ► you remember for a really long time nobody trusted photosyncing? None of us

00:26:06 ◼   ► trusted photosyncing but over time we learned to trust it. I feel this way

00:26:11 ◼   ► about iCloud file sharing because even things like shared iCloud folders took

00:26:18 ◼   ► - It took over a year to be,

00:26:20 ◼   ► like it was supposed to be in a version of iOS

00:26:22 ◼   ► and just never showed up.

00:26:24 ◼   ► And I think it's like just recently started

00:26:26 ◼   ► to actually work.

00:26:27 ◼   ► So like, I'm not even convinced that this is something

00:26:31 ◼   ► that had enough long term user testing on.

00:26:35 ◼   ► - What if I use it for something mission critical though?

00:26:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's a good point.

00:26:39 ◼   ► This surely is not an issue that way, right?

00:26:42 ◼   ► So I wouldn't trust this.

00:26:46 ◼   ► (sighs)

00:26:48 ◼   ► with the Windows tool, because, I don't know, man.

00:26:53 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:26:55 ◼   ► So like, this was, I'm just looking it up now, right?

00:26:58 ◼   ► This was supposed to come out with Mac OS Catalina,

00:27:01 ◼   ► and it got delayed on the Mac for a long time,

00:27:03 ◼   ► like file sharing, or folder sharing, actually.

00:27:06 ◼   ► I don't know if you're doing folder sharing

00:27:08 ◼   ► or file sharing here.

00:27:09 ◼   ► - It's folder sharing, it has to be folder sharing.

00:27:11 ◼   ► - This is a relatively new thing.

00:27:13 ◼   ► I wouldn't feel comfortable.

00:27:16 ◼   ► My biggest issue is that if she is actually unable

00:27:19 ◼   ► to just edit in place,

00:27:21 ◼   ► I just can't, I just can only imagine

00:27:27 ◼   ► that's going to cause some kind of problem.

00:27:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:27:30 ◼   ► - Like some kind of syncing issue with Obsidian.

00:27:32 ◼   ► Like Obsidian's gonna be looking for a file

00:27:34 ◼   ► that doesn't exist.

00:27:35 ◼   ► - I also do have that flagged in my head as like,

00:27:37 ◼   ► okay, this is workable, but this also feels like

00:27:39 ◼   ► the exact kind of thing that can confuse syncing

00:27:43 ◼   ► very easily. You're gonna get some kind of conflict somewhere.

00:27:46 ◼   ► Yeah, someone made a copy, edited the copy, deleted the original, renamed the original

00:27:50 ◼   ► to be the copy. Like that feels great if everyone's computer is online at the same time while

00:27:57 ◼   ► it's happening, but that feels like it could be real bad if someone's computer is offline

00:28:02 ◼   ► and wakes up with a different version of the file. And then it's like, "Wait, what happens

00:28:06 ◼   ► here?" I have in the past noticed that iCloud Drive

00:28:11 ◼   ► syncs not as quickly as Dropbox.

00:28:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, iCloud Drive, I feel very much the same way as you,

00:28:17 ◼   ► where when it first came out, I just didn't trust it at all.

00:28:20 ◼   ► For me as an individual user,

00:28:22 ◼   ► I think it's basically rock solid now,

00:28:25 ◼   ► like I haven't had any problems with it.

00:28:27 ◼   ► - I'm good with it now.

00:28:28 ◼   ► I use it for not, I still use Dropbox,

00:28:29 ◼   ► but like I don't worry about using iCloud Drive

00:28:33 ◼   ► for my own stuff anymore.

00:28:35 ◼   ► Like if an app uses it or whatever,

00:28:37 ◼   ► like I use it as like, okay,

00:28:38 ◼   ► Like I'll have some stuff in here, that's totally fine.

00:28:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly, yeah, I'm perfectly fine with it as well.

00:28:44 ◼   ► But it does still have this thing of iCloud Drive

00:28:47 ◼   ► is never in a rush to synchronize anything.

00:28:50 ◼   ► I don't know, it always feels like iCloud Drive

00:28:52 ◼   ► just spends a lot of time in a cafe, sipping tea,

00:28:57 ◼   ► looking out the window, like reading the newspaper.

00:28:59 ◼   ► And like it'll do its job, but maybe not right now.

00:29:02 ◼   ► You know, it'll do it when it's convenient.

00:29:04 ◼   ► - And that's fine if I can tell it sync now

00:29:09 ◼   ► like I can with Dropbox.

00:29:11 ◼   ► - Yes, exactly.

00:29:12 ◼   ► - But you have no control over iCloud Drive.

00:29:15 ◼   ► It would just get to it when it's ready.

00:29:16 ◼   ► Like if I think something's stuck with Dropbox,

00:29:18 ◼   ► I can pause and unpause it and it will start going.

00:29:21 ◼   ► Or I can look in the little Dropbox app

00:29:24 ◼   ► and it will show me what's syncing.

00:29:26 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:29:27 ◼   ► - iCloud Drive has none of this.

00:29:28 ◼   ► Sometimes there's a little spinner, right?

00:29:31 ◼   ► Or like a little progress bar, but that's all you get.

00:29:33 ◼   ► And like, uh, what's particularly delightful right now is of course, we're recording this.

00:29:38 ◼   ► I'm on the writing computer, which is used for podcasting as well.

00:29:41 ◼   ► And whenever we do that, I have a little shortcut that I run that turns off Dropbox

00:29:46 ◼   ► for four hours, and then it will turn Dropbox back on after we're done recording.

00:29:50 ◼   ► Cause you don't want Dropbox spinning and eating up all the

00:29:52 ◼   ► the internet while that's happening.

00:29:53 ◼   ► Some people don't have a problem with this.

00:29:55 ◼   ► My Dropbox is currently uploading this conversation.

00:29:58 ◼   ► Yes, I know Myke.

00:30:00 ◼   ► We're all very impressed with your super fast internet connection.

00:30:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:30:05 ◼   ► - Yes, it's (beep) fantastic for you.

00:30:08 ◼   ► - We had a conversation beforehand

00:30:10 ◼   ► where Gray was telling me about his internet woes,

00:30:13 ◼   ► which is why I am now cyberbullying him.

00:30:15 ◼   ► - Yes, so it is vital for all podcasters

00:30:18 ◼   ► to minimize everything that's using the internet

00:30:21 ◼   ► while you're doing something that's gonna be real time.

00:30:24 ◼   ► - For some podcasters.

00:30:24 ◼   ► - For some podcasters, for all podcasters.

00:30:26 ◼   ► But so in this conversation, of course,

00:30:28 ◼   ► while we're discussing iCloud Drive,

00:30:30 ◼   ► I opened up my iCloud Drive folder

00:30:31 ◼   ► just to look at the Obsidian thing.

00:30:33 ◼   ► And even right now on the bottom,

00:30:35 ◼   ► there's a little message which says,

00:30:38 ◼   ► "iCloud Drive is currently downloading 15 items,

00:30:41 ◼   ► "five gigabytes out of 12 gigabytes."

00:30:44 ◼   ► And it's like, what are you doing, iCloud Drive?

00:30:47 ◼   ► I have no idea what that could even possibly be.

00:30:51 ◼   ► And it's extra funny to me

00:30:53 ◼   ► because we're recording the show.

00:30:55 ◼   ► I have just come back from a two-day trip

00:30:59 ◼   ► where I didn't bring any devices other than my phone.

00:31:02 ◼   ► Like I didn't really take any pictures.

00:31:04 ◼   ► This is the first time I'm using any of the computers.

00:31:07 ◼   ► Also, all the computers have been on the entire time

00:31:12 ◼   ► I was gone and it's like,

00:31:13 ◼   ► hey, this is what gives iCloud Drive that feeling of like,

00:31:16 ◼   ► oh, it's got other stuff to do.

00:31:18 ◼   ► And oh, iCloud Drive, I guess was on vacation

00:31:21 ◼   ► over the past couple of days.

00:31:22 ◼   ► And right now while we're recording a podcast,

00:31:25 ◼   ► it's decided to download 10 items.

00:31:27 ◼   ► like 11.35 gigabytes worth of stuff

00:31:30 ◼   ► like right now it's gonna download.

00:31:33 ◼   ► I don't have any problem with it 'cause it does work.

00:31:35 ◼   ► It syncs, everything is there.

00:31:36 ◼   ► But there is a little bit of like,

00:31:38 ◼   ► what you doing buddy?

00:31:39 ◼   ► Where were you?

00:31:40 ◼   ► What 12 gigabytes of stuff do you have to sync

00:31:44 ◼   ► when I literally haven't touched any of my devices

00:31:47 ◼   ► other than my phone for the past two days?

00:31:49 ◼   ► It's so weird.

00:31:50 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, maybe it's downloading a bunch of files

00:31:53 ◼   ► from someone's Windows PC

00:31:55 ◼   ► that have been accidentally added in.

00:31:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, but that's also where I'd love to see what it's actually downloading so I could go like,

00:32:01 ◼   ► "Oh, it's downloading, you know, system 32 folder."

00:32:03 ◼   ► Like, okay, well then at least I can debug that and I can have some idea of what's going on.

00:32:07 ◼   ► So I don't really know quite where we are in this technical project.

00:32:12 ◼   ► I do think the next step is to try to figure out if there is a way to do it on the iPad.

00:32:18 ◼   ► I wasn't quite sure how to debug that, but it does just occur to me.

00:32:22 ◼   ► I can try to do this as a test with my wife's iPad.

00:32:25 ◼   ► so I can actually just have a device in front of me

00:32:27 ◼   ► that isn't mine and see, okay,

00:32:30 ◼   ► can I make it work on my wife's iPad?

00:32:32 ◼   ► And then I have a prayer of doing tech support

00:32:35 ◼   ► over the phone of how to get this to work for somebody else.

00:32:37 ◼   ► - My recommendation is if you're gonna go down this route,

00:32:40 ◼   ► if it does work, you should keep it to Apple platforms.

00:32:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, that would be ideal, yes.

00:32:46 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:32:47 ◼   ► - One, if there's an issue, you can't debug it.

00:32:49 ◼   ► But two, it's just, if it's going to be supported

00:32:52 ◼   ► well anywhere. This is the best place.

00:32:55 ◼   ► Like I guarantee you no matter

00:32:57 ◼   ► how many people are working on it,

00:32:58 ◼   ► and I'm sure there are really smart

00:33:00 ◼   ► people working on it,

00:33:01 ◼   ► it's just not going to get the

00:33:02 ◼   ► resources for the Windows software

00:33:05 ◼   ► that you're going to get for iPad OS

00:33:07 ◼   ► for the sinking of documents, right?

00:33:10 ◼   ► Oh yeah, for sure. For sure.

00:33:11 ◼   ► And that's just that's just naturally

00:33:12 ◼   ► the way I would expect it to be.

00:33:13 ◼   ► Of course Apple has to make it

00:33:15 ◼   ► absolutely rock solid and like

00:33:16 ◼   ► making you work on Windows is great,

00:33:18 ◼   ► but it it just can't ever be

00:33:19 ◼   ► priority number one.

00:33:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:21 ◼   ► It would be insane if it was that way.

00:33:23 ◼   ► You just couldn't possibly buy it.

00:33:24 ◼   ► - I mean, especially 'cause the open in place thing

00:33:26 ◼   ► is just sort of freaking me out.

00:33:28 ◼   ► - Yes, no, there's also,

00:33:29 ◼   ► as a long time power user,

00:33:32 ◼   ► that's a real red flag for like,

00:33:35 ◼   ► "Ooh, I don't like this at all."

00:33:36 ◼   ► - 'Cause there was a time

00:33:38 ◼   ► when that was just what iCloud Drive did.

00:33:40 ◼   ► You could not open files in place with iCloud Drive.

00:33:45 ◼   ► And it was one of the things I didn't like about it.

00:33:47 ◼   ► Every time I opened it on another machine,

00:33:49 ◼   ► it would make a duplicate.

00:33:50 ◼   ► and it's just like, this isn't what I want.

00:33:52 ◼   ► Or like if an app wanted to use something

00:33:56 ◼   ► in another app's folder,

00:33:57 ◼   ► there was just no way to access those documents.

00:34:01 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Right?

00:34:02 ◼   ► You would have to copy them.

00:34:03 ◼   ► But now you don't need to do any of that

00:34:04 ◼   ► because those app folders are now just treated

00:34:07 ◼   ► as folders inside of the whole thing

00:34:09 ◼   ► that you're able to freely access.

00:34:11 ◼   ► So it works fine.

00:34:12 ◼   ► But if it's still doing that kind of stuff on Windows,

00:34:16 ◼   ► I'd be a bit like, oh, I don't know.

00:34:17 ◼   ► - Yeah. - I don't think

00:34:18 ◼   ► it's gonna work great.

00:34:19 ◼   ► I will say, if you can get this to work better, it will be better for you than Git.

00:34:24 ◼   ► I'm almost convinced of that.

00:34:25 ◼   ► GIT is not an option.

00:34:27 ◼   ► You know, I now know way more about Git than I ever did before.

00:34:30 ◼   ► And I still feel like, oh no, this is, this is, this is just too much.

00:34:33 ◼   ► But yes, I do want to thank everyone for technical support.

00:34:36 ◼   ► I want to anti-thank Myke for bringing this up at the end of the show, because

00:34:40 ◼   ► it really has gotten under my skin of, I would like to have a system that is much

00:34:45 ◼   ► better for doing hand annotations on the script.

00:34:48 ◼   ► I really do feel like that's a critical part of my workflow that is just, is not where it should be.

00:34:55 ◼   ► I don't know why I'm getting anti-thanked then.

00:34:57 ◼   ► You're getting anti-thanked because I had brushed this to the corner of my mind and I just was mostly able to not think about it.

00:35:03 ◼   ► I'm just here trying to make your work better, you know?

00:35:05 ◼   ► I know!

00:35:06 ◼   ► And I'm getting anti-thanked for it.

00:35:08 ◼   ► It's super annoying!

00:35:09 ◼   ► Like, I didn't have a problem before and now I have a problem, right?

00:35:12 ◼   ► So, the script process may have been slightly suboptimal but I was able to deal with it.

00:35:17 ◼   ► And now I feel like, "Oh great, I have this really annoying technical problem to try to

00:35:21 ◼   ► solve with a bunch of tools that might not want to work well together to make this happen."

00:35:24 ◼   ► So…

00:35:25 ◼   ► I actually think that what you just said then is just a pretty good summary of our show

00:35:30 ◼   ► and working life together in general.

00:35:33 ◼   ► Oh yeah?

00:35:34 ◼   ► I didn't have a problem, now I have a problem.

00:35:38 ◼   ► I feel like that sums everything up really nicely.

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00:37:47 ◼   ► Our thanks to fitbod for the support of this show and relay FM.

00:37:51 ◼   ► Speaking of problems, I think Apple's gonna help me out.

00:37:54 ◼   ► How's Apple gonna help you out?

00:37:55 ◼   ► This might be the best thing Apple has done for me personally ever.

00:37:59 ◼   ► Oh yeah?

00:38:00 ◼   ► Okay.

00:38:01 ◼   ► announced that I think starting next year

00:38:04 ◼   ► They are no longer going to require

00:38:07 ◼   ► People to put email addresses in RSS feeds for podcasts. Oh

00:38:12 ◼   ► Wow, okay. I was like what on earth could this be? All right, so I

00:38:17 ◼   ► spoke about this when I was complaining when I had like a real just like

00:38:21 ◼   ► breakdown about email a while ago on the show

00:38:24 ◼   ► Mm-hmm, because I was just fed up with the amount of absolute I get my email inbox every day and

00:38:31 ◼   ► And I know where it's coming from.

00:38:33 ◼   ► It's like people getting my email address

00:38:35 ◼   ► or Relay FM email addresses from podcast RSS feeds.

00:38:39 ◼   ► And they just get added to mailing distribution lists.

00:38:42 ◼   ► And I get spam, endless spam about,

00:38:45 ◼   ► hey, do you want this cryptocurrency expert

00:38:47 ◼   ► on your podcast, right?

00:38:49 ◼   ► Like that's just what I get all day, every day.

00:38:52 ◼   ► And now Apple is saying,

00:38:55 ◼   ► no longer will we be requiring this

00:38:58 ◼   ► because they've now like, you know,

00:39:00 ◼   ► In the intervening time, Apple now has a whole system

00:39:04 ◼   ► for submitting podcasts to Apple Podcasts

00:39:07 ◼   ► called Podcast Connect, which is like,

00:39:09 ◼   ► basically it's based I think on what the App Store Connect

00:39:12 ◼   ► thing is, where you submit stuff and it gets reviewed

00:39:15 ◼   ► and then you can view statistics and all that kind of stuff

00:39:17 ◼   ► about your shows.

00:39:19 ◼   ► They've now made it that basically that's what they care

00:39:22 ◼   ► about is you have an account on Podcast Connect

00:39:25 ◼   ► and you can have multiple users and all that kind of stuff.

00:39:28 ◼   ► And so that's just kind of how a contact email address

00:39:31 ◼   ► for Apple is given.

00:39:33 ◼   ► And that no longer needs to be confirmed in the RSS feed.

00:39:37 ◼   ► I will be intrigued to see,

00:39:39 ◼   ► I haven't actually looked into this,

00:39:40 ◼   ► like how are they getting ownership claim of feeds?

00:39:44 ◼   ► 'Cause I think that was part of it, right?

00:39:45 ◼   ► That like, this is something that a lot of platforms

00:39:49 ◼   ► have used and it's gonna be interesting

00:39:51 ◼   ► to see how this changes.

00:39:52 ◼   ► They're like, you submit an RSS feed

00:39:55 ◼   ► and then to a platform,

00:39:57 ◼   ► the platform looks for the email address in the feed,

00:40:00 ◼   ► then contacts that email address with a code,

00:40:03 ◼   ► which you then validate as like, I own this feed.

00:40:05 ◼   ► So I haven't actually looked into that.

00:40:08 ◼   ► I'm sure that they've,

00:40:08 ◼   ► but like just like a thought that popped

00:40:10 ◼   ► into my mind right now, but whatever,

00:40:12 ◼   ► I'm sure there's a system.

00:40:13 ◼   ► But the reason this is good for me is we will now be able

00:40:16 ◼   ► to remove email addresses, hopefully, from our RSS feeds,

00:40:20 ◼   ► which will stop some of the crap email that I get,

00:40:25 ◼   ► because I'm sure I'm already on a bunch of lists,

00:40:28 ◼   ► so I know I'm gonna get it forever,

00:40:31 ◼   ► but there will be a selection of new lists

00:40:33 ◼   ► that my email address won't be on,

00:40:35 ◼   ► which I'm excited about.

00:40:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, you can kind of stop the future spread of this

00:40:41 ◼   ► is the main thing.

00:40:42 ◼   ► - Like eventually, I might be able to weed out

00:40:45 ◼   ► a lot of the spam, right?

00:40:46 ◼   ► And it's just not new spam that's coming.

00:40:49 ◼   ► And there'll still be some, but it'll be less,

00:40:51 ◼   ► like in over time, I can kind of get rid of it,

00:40:53 ◼   ► get rid of it. So I'm excited about that.

00:40:55 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm happy to hear about that as well.

00:40:57 ◼   ► I was going to talk about this either on State of the Apps or in the theme

00:41:01 ◼   ► episode, but might as well mention here,

00:41:02 ◼   ► just so people can truly understand the scale of this issue of like, Oh,

00:41:06 ◼   ► when you have to have your email address in a publicly accessible

00:41:11 ◼   ► database like this with Apple,

00:41:13 ◼   ► I made a real push over the past few months to try to clear up my email and try

00:41:18 ◼   ► to get back on top of the system for a bunch of reasons.

00:41:21 ◼   ► And in the past three months, I made a note when I started so

00:41:25 ◼   ► that I could see where this went.

00:41:27 ◼   ► I have deleted over 100,000 emails.

00:41:32 ◼   ► And it's like a huge portion of that is obviously coming from the fact that like,

00:41:37 ◼   ► oh, my email address has been in this public area and is like accessible.

00:41:43 ◼   ► And you just get, like Myke said, so many weird offers and just yeah, like this

00:41:49 ◼   ► whole level of emails where they're directed at you, but they're not personal to you.

00:41:55 ◼   ► It's just monstrous to try to deal with, to actually find the useful emails under

00:42:01 ◼   ► this enormous dump of things.

00:42:03 ◼   ► And it's part of the reason why, like, I think when people hear like, Oh, I just

00:42:06 ◼   ► have largely ignored my email for huge amounts of time, people are like, how can

00:42:10 ◼   ► you do that?

00:42:10 ◼   ► It's like, well, it's just because the, like the signal to noise ratio is so awful.

00:42:16 ◼   ► The majority of that wasn't.

00:42:18 ◼   ► straight up spam, like my little like how many messages do you think have thing

00:42:22 ◼   ► doesn't track the spam messages, that's like the stuff that is deleted

00:42:26 ◼   ► it's all this weird semi-spam stuff that that comes through through this kind of thing so

00:42:32 ◼   ► I'm very happy to hear about that too so yes I would like to get my email out of those lists

00:42:36 ◼   ► if remotely possible. This is one of those things that talking about the software

00:42:40 ◼   ► we will be able to make that change for relay FM shows because we control our feeds

00:42:44 ◼   ► But then it's up to other podcast platforms and systems to also decide that they want to make that change.

00:42:50 ◼   ► Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:42:52 ◼   ► But hopefully they will and it will make things easier for a lot of people.

00:42:57 ◼   ► While we're talking about big companies and podcasting initiatives,

00:43:01 ◼   ► some time ago we spoke about the idea of YouTube getting into podcasting.

00:43:07 ◼   ► It's like a thing that we were just wondering, like, what is this sleeping giant going to do?

00:43:13 ◼   ► And I don't know if they've actually done anything,

00:43:17 ◼   ► but there's been a bit of a hubbub in the podcasting community

00:43:20 ◼   ► about the fact that YouTube now has a dedicated page,

00:43:25 ◼   ► which is youtube.com/podcasts.

00:43:27 ◼   ► And if you're in America, currently,

00:43:31 ◼   ► if you're in the USA, it shows you a page

00:43:34 ◼   ► where they have curated a bunch of podcasts

00:43:38 ◼   ► and made some playlists for them.

00:43:40 ◼   ► I used a VPN and took a screenshot of this page at some point,

00:43:45 ◼   ► which I've put in the notes for you and I'll put in the notes for other people.

00:43:48 ◼   ► It's not really much of anything right now.

00:43:52 ◼   ► >> Okay.

00:43:52 ◼   ► >> It's like, here are a bunch of popular podcast careers,

00:43:56 ◼   ► and here are a bunch of playlists of different types, and there you go.

00:44:05 ◼   ► And so they're kind of curating podcasts,

00:44:09 ◼   ► which I'm not really sure why they feel the need to do this what seems manual curation,

00:44:14 ◼   ► kind of seems antithetical to what YouTube is, but it definitely feels like there is manual

00:44:20 ◼   ► curation going on here, because I have not found, unless you have a way to tell

00:44:26 ◼   ► YouTube, "Hey, we're a podcast," right?

00:44:29 ◼   ► - So, okay, so here's what I wonder about this.

00:44:36 ◼   ► So when we talked about it last time, I'm really big on like, "Oh, if I was in charge of YouTube, I think podcasts is a big growth area for them, actually."

00:44:45 ◼   ► I think there's a lot that they can do here. I genuinely really want YouTube to get into the podcasting area, both as a producer and also as a listener,

00:44:54 ◼   ► because I think they can really help solve the discovery problem, which is part of what podcasts are the worst at now.

00:45:01 ◼   ► - See, I don't know if I agree with you. - Okay, why don't you agree with me?

00:45:05 ◼   ► Because people are already doing it. YouTube don't need to have a hand in this at all.

00:45:10 ◼   ► What do you mean?

00:45:11 ◼   ► People are already putting video versions of their podcasts or like people are already treating like

00:45:16 ◼   ► here's a bunch of people in a room we have microphones we have cameras this is now a podcast

00:45:21 ◼   ► and it's on YouTube right?

00:45:22 ◼   ► Right yeah yeah.

00:45:23 ◼   ► This is already happening and the YouTube algorithm is serving this content to people.

00:45:29 ◼   ► YouTube does not need to have a podcasting initiative of any kind for this to happen on its own.

00:45:34 ◼   ► So like, I would prefer them to do nothing,

00:45:39 ◼   ► because my concern is, if they try and turn their hand to this,

00:45:43 ◼   ► it's going to upset a bunch of stuff.

00:45:45 ◼   ► What are you worried about getting upset?

00:45:47 ◼   ► It's another big platform saying they do podcasts when it's...

00:45:53 ◼   ► Okay, I'm getting a bit tired of the debate of like,

00:45:55 ◼   ► a podcast is only a podcast if it's in an RSS feed.

00:45:58 ◼   ► I've said this a bunch of times,

00:45:59 ◼   ► but I feel like now it's just been repeated too many times.

00:46:02 ◼   ► Right, it's just like, whatever.

00:46:03 ◼   ► But a YouTube video is not a podcast.

00:46:08 ◼   ► It just isn't.

00:46:09 ◼   ► Like if I can't get it in a podcast app,

00:46:13 ◼   ► it's not a podcast.

00:46:15 ◼   ► It's just here is a long YouTube video.

00:46:18 ◼   ► And my concern is like Spotify,

00:46:22 ◼   ► YouTube will be encouraging people

00:46:24 ◼   ► to just publish their stuff on their platform.

00:46:27 ◼   ► That's the part that bugs me, right?

00:46:29 ◼   ► The RSS thing, whatever,

00:46:31 ◼   ► but a podcast should be available

00:46:33 ◼   ► wherever you get your podcasts.

00:46:35 ◼   ► That's my kind of conceit on it.

00:46:37 ◼   ► The particular is about exactly how, I don't care about,

00:46:41 ◼   ► but I do believe that this is a type of content

00:46:44 ◼   ► which is best served when people can get it

00:46:46 ◼   ► wherever they want to get it.

00:46:47 ◼   ► Now that could mean that you do what we do.

00:46:50 ◼   ► We have a podcast we also publish on YouTube, right?

00:46:53 ◼   ► That I'm cool with.

00:46:54 ◼   ► And if YouTube stays out of this space,

00:46:58 ◼   ► this keeps happening, right?

00:46:59 ◼   ► people maybe make it their YouTube video,

00:47:02 ◼   ► and then they release the audio, right?

00:47:05 ◼   ► My concern is if YouTube keeps pushing in,

00:47:07 ◼   ► they're gonna go, "No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:47:09 ◼   ► "Don't do that part.

00:47:10 ◼   ► "Here's $20 million.

00:47:11 ◼   ► "Just keep it on our platform."

00:47:15 ◼   ► - Okay, so you're worried they're going to provide

00:47:17 ◼   ► financial incentive to be,

00:47:18 ◼   ► 'cause I was trying to think,

00:47:19 ◼   ► well, why wouldn't someone just also publish it

00:47:21 ◼   ► as an RSS feed? - Right.

00:47:22 ◼   ► They're gonna do what Spotify's doing.

00:47:24 ◼   ► - Hmm.

00:47:25 ◼   ► - 'Cause my point is I think people say,

00:47:28 ◼   ► Myke you're saying people should stop making one argument but it's the same argument.

00:47:31 ◼   ► I don't think that it's the same thing.

00:47:34 ◼   ► Because we participate in what are considered closed platforms.

00:47:38 ◼   ► You can get all of our podcasts on Spotify but that's because we're not entering any

00:47:42 ◼   ► particular deal with them.

00:47:44 ◼   ► They're just another destination for us to publish our shows.

00:47:48 ◼   ► But if Spotify said to us like if you want to put your stuff here we're the only place

00:47:53 ◼   ► that you can publish it.

00:47:54 ◼   ► We'd be like no I don't want to do that.

00:47:56 ◼   ► now we're not participating in the Neopen ecosystem.

00:48:00 ◼   ► And so if YouTube just continue doing what they're doing right now, people can choose

00:48:04 ◼   ► to do whatever they want, right?

00:48:06 ◼   ► They can put their video version on YouTube, they can put their audio, maybe their video

00:48:10 ◼   ► on Spotify, they can put their audio wherever they want, right?

00:48:14 ◼   ► It can go into Apple podcasts, it can go into every single other third-party podcast app.

00:48:19 ◼   ► My concern is if they're like, "Hey, we have a podcasting initiative.

00:48:23 ◼   ► "Hey, Logan Paul, here's 50 million dollars.

00:48:27 ◼   ► "Now you just publish your podcast with us."

00:48:30 ◼   ► - Right. - You know what I mean?

00:48:31 ◼   ► And that's the thing I don't want to happen,

00:48:35 ◼   ► and I would worry would happen

00:48:37 ◼   ► if YouTube continues pushing into this arena.

00:48:40 ◼   ► - Right, okay, I guess I think that is fair

00:48:42 ◼   ► because I have run across a couple of channels

00:48:45 ◼   ► that even call what they're doing a podcast,

00:48:47 ◼   ► and then I discover there is literally no place

00:48:49 ◼   ► to watch it other than YouTube.

00:48:51 ◼   ► - And that's not a podcast to me.

00:48:52 ◼   ► Now it's just a YouTube show, which is great, like go for it.

00:48:57 ◼   ► If you're not on Apple Podcasts and Spotify,

00:49:00 ◼   ► like you're not doing it, right?

00:49:01 ◼   ► It's not a podcast anymore, but yeah.

00:49:04 ◼   ► - What's particularly weird about that is I found

00:49:06 ◼   ► a couple of examples that are just audio only too.

00:49:09 ◼   ► They're not even doing the, oh, we have cameras

00:49:12 ◼   ► and we have that fancy whatever Rode microphone

00:49:15 ◼   ► or the Shure SMB or whatever the heck it is.

00:49:18 ◼   ► They're not even doing that.

00:49:19 ◼   ► It is just, it's like what we do with Cortex,

00:49:21 ◼   ► is just audio only and then I've gone to search for adding it to overcast and it's like oh there's

00:49:27 ◼   ► no RSS feed at all that I always think is very interesting like what are you guys doing yeah

00:49:31 ◼   ► why are you just publishing the audio to youtube it seems very strange to me so okay I think that's

00:49:38 ◼   ► a that is a fair fear I think I think you're not wrong there I guess I just I feel like youtube is

00:49:45 ◼   ► less bad because it, I don't know, maybe it's wrong.

00:49:49 ◼   ► It just feels much better than something like a Spotify.

00:49:52 ◼   ► - Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome to me.

00:49:54 ◼   ► - What I was just trying to think here is like,

00:49:56 ◼   ► can I actually come up with an actual reason why?

00:49:59 ◼   ► And nothing is leaping into my head.

00:50:02 ◼   ► - YouTube just works for you, right?

00:50:04 ◼   ► So like to you, YouTube's fine 'cause you use it

00:50:08 ◼   ► and understand it and you benefit from it.

00:50:10 ◼   ► You understand how to be successful with it

00:50:13 ◼   ► in a way that I think a lot of people don't.

00:50:16 ◼   ► And so to me, YouTube is really nerve-wracking

00:50:20 ◼   ► because I've built an audience however I've built it,

00:50:24 ◼   ► whatever the way is.

00:50:25 ◼   ► I don't know how it's happened,

00:50:26 ◼   ► but it's happened over time, right?

00:50:28 ◼   ► I don't think I would have been able to do that

00:50:32 ◼   ► the same way with YouTube deciding what's shown to people.

00:50:37 ◼   ► We talk about this a lot, right?

00:50:41 ◼   ► The subscriber and the algorithm.

00:50:42 ◼   ► And I think that my content and the shows that I make have succeeded based on the fact that people made a choice

00:50:48 ◼   ► and then they kept tuning in because there was a new episode in their list

00:50:52 ◼   ► and I feel like if it was YouTube, I don't think that would happen.

00:50:57 ◼   ► And also, one of the things I love about podcasting is the barrier to entry is low.

00:51:02 ◼   ► You just need a microphone and zoom or Skype or whatever, right?

00:51:07 ◼   ► And you can go for it.

00:51:09 ◼   ► With YouTube, that barrier to entry is so much higher.

00:51:14 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:51:15 ◼   ► - Because as soon as you put video into it,

00:51:18 ◼   ► to get something that looks professional,

00:51:20 ◼   ► so much more time, so much more effort,

00:51:22 ◼   ► than to get a podcast that sounds professional.

00:51:25 ◼   ► You really don't have to do a lot

00:51:26 ◼   ► to get a podcast that sounds good.

00:51:28 ◼   ► With YouTube, it's now a whole different kettle of fish.

00:51:31 ◼   ► 'Cause I dug through this page,

00:51:33 ◼   ► as far as I could see, every podcast that was featured

00:51:37 ◼   ► has a video component.

00:51:38 ◼   ► It's not like what we do.

00:51:40 ◼   ► - So one of the reasons why I think this has struck me

00:51:43 ◼   ► as an interesting project that I wonder

00:51:44 ◼   ► if YouTube is getting into,

00:51:46 ◼   ► is that YouTube does have a feature,

00:51:49 ◼   ► which I don't think it's accessible to all channels.

00:51:53 ◼   ► Like I think we can't do it on Cortex.

00:51:55 ◼   ► I think I remember looking for it once.

00:51:56 ◼   ► It may just be in beta.

00:51:58 ◼   ► But they have a way, as a creator,

00:52:01 ◼   ► where you can, they don't say like, "Mark as podcast,"

00:52:05 ◼   ► but I feel like this is functioning what they're doing.

00:52:08 ◼   ► They're asking if the video that you have uploaded

00:52:12 ◼   ► is like an audio only experience,

00:52:15 ◼   ► or if it is something that is a listenable experience.

00:52:18 ◼   ► I forget exactly what their language is.

00:52:20 ◼   ► But what they're asking for there,

00:52:22 ◼   ► and I've seen it on the YouTube app

00:52:24 ◼   ► for stuff that is basically like listening to a thing,

00:52:27 ◼   ► YouTube will change the interface

00:52:29 ◼   ► to act like audio controls.

00:52:31 ◼   ► - It's like their YouTube music.

00:52:32 ◼   ► They show the YouTube music controls,

00:52:34 ◼   ► which is like big play, pause, and skip buttons.

00:52:36 ◼   ► - Yes, yes.

00:52:37 ◼   ► And so that's the thing that has seemed to me interesting.

00:52:40 ◼   ► And like, I wonder looking at this page.

00:52:42 ◼   ► - I don't think they wanna do that.

00:52:44 ◼   ► - You don't think that's what they're up to?

00:52:45 ◼   ► - No, I think they want people to make video podcasts.

00:52:49 ◼   ► I don't think they want audio podcasts.

00:52:51 ◼   ► - Oh, but see, Myke, I want them to want audio podcasts.

00:52:53 ◼   ► - But I don't think that they do.

00:52:55 ◼   ► I really don't.

00:52:56 ◼   ► I think that YouTube know video,

00:52:59 ◼   ► and so they just want video.

00:53:02 ◼   ► And just poking around this page.

00:53:05 ◼   ► - It's a very strange page.

00:53:06 ◼   ► - It seemed incredibly clear to me,

00:53:08 ◼   ► because look, I'm not trying to be that guy.

00:53:10 ◼   ► There were shows that had significantly smaller audiences

00:53:14 ◼   ► than even we do on YouTube that were included in this.

00:53:18 ◼   ► And they were included in it, I believe,

00:53:20 ◼   ► because they make video shows and we don't.

00:53:23 ◼   ► - Right, okay.

00:53:25 ◼   ► - So I don't want podcasting to become a video medium.

00:53:30 ◼   ► As a consumer, I watch lots of podcasts on YouTube.

00:53:35 ◼   ► But I don't want that to be the only way that this content is created, because I think it would stop a lot of great shows from being made.

00:53:44 ◼   ► When I heard this announcement, I was looking around to try to see this podcast page and what it was, and I couldn't find it.

00:53:50 ◼   ► And so now, obviously, that's why it's only in the US. Can't see it over here.

00:53:54 ◼   ► And so I just have this screenshot of yours to go by.

00:53:56 ◼   ► And it is a strange selection of things.

00:54:00 ◼   ► things. The one that particularly strikes me is the one at the very top, which is the

00:54:04 ◼   ► nightly news broadcasts from like clearly a TV channel. And that's a bit like, "Is that a podcast?"

00:54:11 ◼   ► No, I think that's a news program that you could listen to. So maybe you're right in the long run.

00:54:18 ◼   ► Maybe this isn't like the thing that I would be thinking of if I was in charge of YouTube podcasts.

00:54:24 ◼   ► This is more like a watch time initiative?

00:54:27 ◼   ► How can we min/max content that is really long but also still has a visual component

00:54:33 ◼   ► and highlight those as things for people to watch? I don't know.

00:54:37 ◼   ► Hmm. Yeah, I have to say that the more I look at this screenshot, the less I like...

00:54:42 ◼   ► I like it.

00:54:45 ◼   ► So I'm not convinced that this would be a good thing.

00:54:49 ◼   ► I like that we're able to take our podcasts to whatever platform we want and make them available to whoever wants to get them.

00:54:57 ◼   ► And my worry is another big platform coming in and locking that content down.

00:55:04 ◼   ► Because I genuinely think that's bad for everybody. It's bad for the creators, even though they make a bunch of money. Not all of them do.

00:55:11 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's bad for the creators collectively and it can be very good for individual creators.

00:55:16 ◼   ► - Like especially, yeah, individual creators, whatever,

00:55:19 ◼   ► they've just made their money, like make your money, right?

00:55:22 ◼   ► And I don't begrudge creators that do that individually,

00:55:26 ◼   ► but what I don't like is when there are like companies

00:55:30 ◼   ► that decide they're gonna do this exclusive arrangement,

00:55:33 ◼   ► and now there are a bunch of podcasters who would,

00:55:35 ◼   ► their next move is now hampered.

00:55:38 ◼   ► Like if you're a person who works for a podcast company,

00:55:41 ◼   ► that podcast company decides they're gonna put

00:55:43 ◼   ► all their content on Spotify,

00:55:46 ◼   ► you're now kind of stuck with the amount of people that can be listened to on Spotify,

00:55:51 ◼   ► which is growing all the time, I will say.

00:55:54 ◼   ► Recently, you know, I've been tracking kind of our show, it's like 15% of our audience

00:55:59 ◼   ► now listen to the show on Spotify.

00:56:01 ◼   ► I'm genuinely shocked by the number, I cannot believe it's that big.

00:56:04 ◼   ► I would have guessed like 3% I feel like would have been my first pass at that.

00:56:09 ◼   ► No, it's approaching and in some cases passes what we do on YouTube now.

00:56:15 ◼   ► And so I don't have a problem with that as a creator,

00:56:18 ◼   ► because we choose to be there.

00:56:19 ◼   ► But if we were only on Spotify,

00:56:22 ◼   ► well now we've potentially taken 85% of our audience away.

00:56:26 ◼   ► - Right, right.

00:56:27 ◼   ► - Right, and so these are the things that concern me

00:56:30 ◼   ► for people that work in the industry.

00:56:33 ◼   ► Well now if you work for a large publisher,

00:56:35 ◼   ► they've decided to go all in on one platform.

00:56:37 ◼   ► If you want to now go and start something

00:56:38 ◼   ► on your own one day, you've restricted the amount of people

00:56:41 ◼   ► that could possibly know about you

00:56:43 ◼   ► for you to now go make that move, you know?

00:56:45 ◼   ► So little things like that bother me.

00:56:47 ◼   ► And so I don't want another big company to do this.

00:56:51 ◼   ► And the problem I have is YouTube is,

00:56:57 ◼   ► I think, the company that could have

00:56:59 ◼   ► the biggest negative impact

00:57:01 ◼   ► because of their size and scale.

00:57:03 ◼   ► - And you think that negative impact

00:57:04 ◼   ► would be directly through exclusives?

00:57:06 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:57:07 ◼   ► They have a lot of money and could write a lot of checks

00:57:12 ◼   ► If they wanted to, they don't even need to pay you cash to just change your rev share.

00:57:16 ◼   ► Yeah, that is true.

00:57:17 ◼   ► Say like, we can make you a ton of money over time if you just publish here.

00:57:21 ◼   ► So stuff like that, it's just like, I don't, I don't like the thought of that.

00:57:25 ◼   ► Really.

00:57:25 ◼   ► Well, you've made me less happy about this project than I was previously.

00:57:32 ◼   ► It's like, Myke, but I would like to discover new podcasts and I think

00:57:39 ◼   ► YouTube could be really good at that.

00:57:40 ◼   ► So do I.

00:57:41 ◼   ► That's my only interest.

00:57:42 ◼   ► And they're like, "Oh."

00:57:43 ◼   ► - But it also is like counter to what you,

00:57:46 ◼   ► like YouTube doesn't want to recommend a channel to you.

00:57:49 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:57:50 ◼   ► - It wants to recommend one video.

00:57:51 ◼   ► So is it really gonna help?

00:57:53 ◼   ► - That is also a good point.

00:57:55 ◼   ► Even the very top here is like popular episodes.

00:57:58 ◼   ► And again, we can get into this like platonic question

00:58:02 ◼   ► of what is a podcast,

00:58:03 ◼   ► but having individual popular episodes feels like

00:58:08 ◼   ► that does not fit the platonic ideal of what podcasts are?

00:58:13 ◼   ► - It's like if I, you know, YouTube will recommend

00:58:15 ◼   ► an episode of a podcast to me now

00:58:17 ◼   ► because there's some kind of drama surrounding it.

00:58:19 ◼   ► And then I might go, "Ooh, lovely!"

00:58:22 ◼   ► And I watch 20 minutes of that podcast.

00:58:25 ◼   ► And that's the end of anything useful for anybody.

00:58:28 ◼   ► Like, I have not decided I want to subscribe

00:58:31 ◼   ► to that podcast.

00:58:32 ◼   ► People got a big breakout hit,

00:58:33 ◼   ► now they think they're podcast successful,

00:58:35 ◼   ► but it's not changed.

00:58:36 ◼   ► Yeah, and a lot of podcasts, like the very experience depends so much on the fact that

00:58:44 ◼   ► you have already listened to other episodes or like you know the hosts.

00:58:48 ◼   ► That also feels like a fundamental thing of like, "What are podcasts?" as opposed to videos

00:58:53 ◼   ► is like, "Oh, I make a video and it is about a topic and the topic is the primary focus

00:58:59 ◼   ► of the video."

00:59:00 ◼   ► Like a video is about a thing.

00:59:02 ◼   ► There are podcasts that are like that, but there are far fewer of them than how YouTube channels work.

00:59:07 ◼   ► But this is why I'm just trying to think about general characteristics.

00:59:11 ◼   ► And like, "Oh, what makes a general characteristic of a podcast?"

00:59:15 ◼   ► And one of those general characteristics is, I am interested in the host's take on this thing

00:59:23 ◼   ► because I have heard the host talk about lots of other things.

00:59:27 ◼   ► other things. So like I am curious about the opinion of this person who I have some sense

00:59:34 ◼   ► of who they are through long experience, which is at the absolute opposite end of the spectrum

00:59:40 ◼   ► of this is a video about a thing and you don't need any previous experience with the thing

00:59:44 ◼   ► because you're watching a video about the thing. You don't need to know anything about

00:59:48 ◼   ► the person who's talking about it. It's just this is topic.

00:59:51 ◼   ► typical YouTube parlance, I guess like podcasts are kind of more like vlogs in

00:59:56 ◼   ► that way like channels you have to like just start and understand that you're

01:00:02 ◼   ► not gonna get a lot of context for a while until you've maybe gone back and

01:00:05 ◼   ► watch more videos to get more context about this person and why are they doing

01:00:10 ◼   ► these things right now. It's kind of like podcasting right like you could jump

01:00:14 ◼   ► into an episode you could pick it up and start listening and you'll get there

01:00:17 ◼   ► eventually but it might help the fact if you go back and listen to more of it

01:00:21 ◼   ► maybe all of it maybe just a big chunk of it it helps right but like that's one

01:00:26 ◼   ► of the great things about podcasts I think is like once you find a new one

01:00:29 ◼   ► oh there's so much stuff to go and listen to if you enjoy it but it makes

01:00:33 ◼   ► it harder to just jump in then like your typical YouTube video about runway

01:00:38 ◼   ► numbers or whatever mmm like if you if there was like a six part podcast series

01:00:42 ◼   ► about runway numbers that included follow-up from the previous one it's

01:00:45 ◼   ► not as easy to jump into.

01:00:47 ◼   ► - Right, yeah, yeah.

01:00:48 ◼   ► Hmm.

01:00:49 ◼   ► - So I don't know if the medium ultimately

01:00:52 ◼   ► is really that good for YouTube to really push on,

01:00:56 ◼   ► as this is where podcasts should be,

01:00:58 ◼   ► and then recommend them to people of like,

01:01:00 ◼   ► hey, here's a popular episode.

01:01:02 ◼   ► You're just like, so?

01:01:03 ◼   ► Like I never see,

01:01:07 ◼   ► 'cause I get recommended all kinds of stuff, right?

01:01:09 ◼   ► Like everybody.

01:01:10 ◼   ► And I'm sure I get recommended,

01:01:13 ◼   ► "Hey, here's a two-hour podcast from these people you don't know."

01:01:16 ◼   ► Like, why? Why would I listen to that?

01:01:19 ◼   ► But sometimes it's like,

01:01:21 ◼   ► "Here's a creator you're already following, and this is their podcast channel,

01:01:25 ◼   ► and they're now talking about this thing. Are you interested?"

01:01:28 ◼   ► And some people go, "Yeah."

01:01:30 ◼   ► Which is honestly like the main reason the Cortex YouTube channel exists, right?

01:01:36 ◼   ► Because sometimes we talk about things in your videos,

01:01:38 ◼   ► and then people get suggested them, and they're like,

01:01:40 ◼   ► "Oh, I'd like to know more about that."

01:01:42 ◼   ► and then they go and listen to the Cortex episode

01:01:44 ◼   ► about whatever video.

01:01:45 ◼   ► But I don't know if that video just works cold to someone.

01:01:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's interesting.

01:01:55 ◼   ► You're also just pointing out something that,

01:01:56 ◼   ► for my own podcast listening on YouTube,

01:02:00 ◼   ► that is also true.

01:02:01 ◼   ► I've actually realized, oh, my behavior actually expresses

01:02:05 ◼   ► interest in the guest and total lack of interest

01:02:09 ◼   ► in the hosts.

01:02:10 ◼   ► So YouTube will recommend me stuff like, "Oh, you're interested in Person X.

01:02:14 ◼   ► They've appeared on this show where they're talking to them."

01:02:18 ◼   ► And I guess I never really thought about it, but my experience is almost

01:02:21 ◼   ► entirely like, "I don't care at all about the people who are talking to the person."

01:02:25 ◼   ► In fact, most of the time it's like, they're an obstacle to hearing like the

01:02:29 ◼   ► person that I want to hear discuss something and yeah, I've never, ever

01:02:34 ◼   ► subscribed to any of those kinds of things.

01:02:38 ◼   ► just like, "Oh, YouTube is recommending videos where a guest is making the rounds on podcast

01:02:43 ◼   ► shows or whatever."

01:02:44 ◼   ► So it's like, "Oh, I want to hear the guest talk about the things."

01:02:46 ◼   ► But that absolutely never helps those channels, at least from my perspective, to subscribe,

01:02:50 ◼   ► because I never have.

01:02:52 ◼   ► And I never really thought about that.

01:02:56 ◼   ► But I guess from YouTube's perspective, that fits into what they would be thinking of with

01:03:00 ◼   ► this very top line here of like, "Popular episodes."

01:03:05 ◼   ► is going to be very, again, more on the video side of it, more like the content side, not the

01:03:12 ◼   ► long experience with the hosts side. So then does it push podcasts to be like,

01:03:18 ◼   ► "you'll never guess what"? That's where I'm kind of going with this,

01:03:21 ◼   ► is because even when you mentioned like, "oh, it's more like vlogs on YouTube",

01:03:27 ◼   ► I feel like the golden age of vlogging has totally passed, and it's partly because vlogs

01:03:34 ◼   ► slowly mutated into this same kind of format of, oh, you can't really count on people just

01:03:41 ◼   ► to show up each week to see what a person's up to, even if that person is quite interesting.

01:03:47 ◼   ► Vlogs kind of mutated more in the direction of stunts and yeah, and it's like I'm actually

01:03:56 ◼   ► trying to think.

01:03:57 ◼   ► And just excess.

01:03:58 ◼   ► Yeah, excess.

01:03:59 ◼   ► Excess is a really good way to put it.

01:04:02 ◼   ► Excess of everything.

01:04:04 ◼   ► of everything. An excess of energy from the person who the vlog is about, an excess in

01:04:13 ◼   ► like just horrific lifestyles, like an excess in what they're up to, you know, "we're

01:04:20 ◼   ► skydiving out of an airplane onto another airplane today!" It's like yeah, that's

01:04:23 ◼   ► what everybody does for their weekend. So yeah, I guess, because I think YouTube just

01:04:28 ◼   ► totally caused that with people realizing, again, because the subscribers are not really

01:04:32 ◼   ► you cannot hold on to a regular audience, even if those people are interested in your vlog, like they just won't see that it exists.

01:04:39 ◼   ► And it pushed all of them into more MrBeast end of the spectrum.

01:04:44 ◼   ► And so yeah, I guess...

01:04:47 ◼   ► I guess inevitable what I should have realized at the very start of this is that YouTube, if it gets into podcasts, will push

01:04:54 ◼   ► podcasts into being more like the most viral of YouTube videos,

01:04:59 ◼   ► which is not really at all what I want to get out of a podcast, and so now I'm sad.

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01:06:25 ◼   ► How much of this AI art stuff going around have you seen?

01:06:29 ◼   ► - Hmm, interesting.

01:06:31 ◼   ► - Yeah?

01:06:31 ◼   ► I mean, okay, so you know what I'm talking about, right?

01:06:33 ◼   ► - Yes, yeah, I know what Dali is.

01:06:36 ◼   ► There's a bunch of them.

01:06:37 ◼   ► Dali, I think, started this, right, into popular culture.

01:06:41 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:06:42 ◼   ► - And then a bunch of other things came about.

01:06:45 ◼   ► I don't know whether they're connected or whatever.

01:06:47 ◼   ► I know that AI art exists.

01:06:50 ◼   ► I know that the way you generate it

01:06:52 ◼   ► is by just giving a string of text

01:06:56 ◼   ► to one of these AI programs

01:06:59 ◼   ► and it will spit something out for you.

01:07:00 ◼   ► Like I've seen YouTube videos about it.

01:07:02 ◼   ► I have friends that have participated

01:07:05 ◼   ► and soon some searches.

01:07:07 ◼   ► I have honestly don't care for me, right?

01:07:13 ◼   ► Like I know that if people are like, this is fun,

01:07:16 ◼   ► I'm gonna see what comes out when I put this text in.

01:07:19 ◼   ► For me, I have zero interest in it right now.

01:07:24 ◼   ► And I have negative interest in it for some stuff

01:07:29 ◼   ► that probably we're gonna touch on

01:07:32 ◼   ► if we're gonna talk about this.

01:07:33 ◼   ► - Ooh, negative interest.

01:07:34 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:07:35 ◼   ► - Wait, negative thoughts or negative interest

01:07:38 ◼   ► as in it's below boring?

01:07:40 ◼   ► It's like--

01:07:41 ◼   ► - I think it's interesting, right?

01:07:43 ◼   ► I don't think this is boring.

01:07:44 ◼   ► I think that this is a really fascinating technology thing.

01:07:49 ◼   ► I don't think it's a good thing.

01:07:54 ◼   ► I think it's a bad thing.

01:07:56 ◼   ► - Okay, and let me explain for the listeners

01:07:57 ◼   ► if they're not familiar with this.

01:07:58 ◼   ► 'Cause isn't one of these,

01:07:59 ◼   ► I've been kind of asking people about this,

01:08:01 ◼   ► and it's very interesting to see the varied response

01:08:06 ◼   ► where some people are very like,

01:08:08 ◼   ► "OMG, I can't believe what's happening about this."

01:08:10 ◼   ► And other people are like,

01:08:11 ◼   ► "I've never heard of this before."

01:08:12 ◼   ► - Right, right, right.

01:08:13 ◼   ► - The first thing where it really came across my radar is,

01:08:17 ◼   ► I don't know if you've seen, there's a Twitter thread here,

01:08:21 ◼   ► which is the first example that caught my attention

01:08:23 ◼   ► of AI-generated art.

01:08:25 ◼   ► And it's from this program called Dolly.

01:08:28 ◼   ► And yes, the idea with Dolly is,

01:08:31 ◼   ► you give the computer a sentence,

01:08:34 ◼   ► and it tries to generate,

01:08:37 ◼   ► Dolly in particular is like generating artwork,

01:08:39 ◼   ► but it's generating an image to match the sentence.

01:08:42 ◼   ► Dali is apparently the best of these.

01:08:44 ◼   ► Like there's a bunch around, Dali seems to be the one

01:08:48 ◼   ► that is the most advanced, and it's also closed.

01:08:52 ◼   ► Like not everyone can use it, but people get invitations

01:08:55 ◼   ► and then like a limited amount of like questions

01:08:58 ◼   ► that they can give it, I think.

01:08:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, so a lot of this stuff

01:09:01 ◼   ► is incredibly computationally intensive.

01:09:04 ◼   ► So it's like, it is very expensive to run.

01:09:06 ◼   ► You cannot run it very well on just normal computers.

01:09:09 ◼   ► You need like these Amazon style clusters of machines

01:09:12 ◼   ► to actually do this stuff.

01:09:14 ◼   ► But so this particular thread caught my attention because

01:09:17 ◼   ► this thread is incredible.

01:09:19 ◼   ► Someone came up with an idea of, "Hey, I'm gonna try to ask Dolly to make images of Kermit

01:09:26 ◼   ► the Frog in various style movies."

01:09:29 ◼   ► You need a prompt, this is the sentence, so the prompt is, "A still of Kermit the Frog

01:09:34 ◼   ► in Blade Runner 2049."

01:09:37 ◼   ► And so then you get an image which is supposed to match that.

01:09:41 ◼   ► And I have to say, it looks exactly like you would imagine a still of Kermit the Frog in

01:09:46 ◼   ► Blade Runner would look like.

01:09:48 ◼   ► It's it's photorealistic, it captures the style of that futurism.

01:09:54 ◼   ► And what makes this thread really great is they continue onward.

01:09:58 ◼   ► And so it goes, a still of Kermit the Frog in the matrix.

01:10:02 ◼   ► And so here's what Kermit would look like if he was in the matrix.

01:10:06 ◼   ► The one that really caught my attention was a still of Kermit the Frog in Spirited Away.

01:10:12 ◼   ► - It just looks like it's in the movie.

01:10:16 ◼   ► It's unbelievable.

01:10:17 ◼   ► - The Spirited Away one was the most shocking because Miyazaki has a real distinctive art

01:10:24 ◼   ► style and it just absolutely nails it of "oh this is how Kermit the Frog would look like

01:10:32 ◼   ► if he was in a Miyazaki movie."

01:10:34 ◼   ► - Right, but here's the problem, right?

01:10:36 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm. - How?

01:10:37 ◼   ► - Well, let's get to that later.

01:10:39 ◼   ► - Okay, okay. - We'll get to the how later.

01:10:40 ◼   ► - Okay. (laughs)

01:10:41 ◼   ► - But it, like, don't think about it too hard.

01:10:44 ◼   ► I just think the thing to establish here

01:10:48 ◼   ► is that it is possible.

01:10:50 ◼   ► And if you're listening to this show

01:10:52 ◼   ► and you have never heard of this stuff before,

01:10:54 ◼   ► like, go look at this link in the description to see.

01:10:58 ◼   ► It looks much better

01:11:00 ◼   ► than however you're imagining it would be.

01:11:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's legit.

01:11:03 ◼   ► Like, it's honestly, you could show me this

01:11:06 ◼   ► and tell me somebody made a puppet and put it,

01:11:09 ◼   ► and I would believe you.

01:11:10 ◼   ► Like, I would believe that it is real in many of these,

01:11:14 ◼   ► or that somebody sat down and drew this.

01:11:17 ◼   ► Like, I would believe you.

01:11:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, you wouldn't look at it and think,

01:11:20 ◼   ► oh, that was obviously a computer-generated image.

01:11:22 ◼   ► - Absolutely not.

01:11:23 ◼   ► For like, 75% of these look perfect.

01:11:27 ◼   ► - And in particular, the kind of weird photo-realistic ones

01:11:30 ◼   ► are interesting, like there's a still of Kermit the Frog

01:11:33 ◼   ► in total recall, which doesn't look like an animation. It really looks like Oh, someone

01:11:38 ◼   ► made a model and then photograph or the Twin Peaks one.

01:11:45 ◼   ► Way down there. Yeah. The other thing is about this that I think is interesting to realize

01:11:51 ◼   ► immediately is since this is a computer and you can just type in sentences, you can generate

01:11:57 ◼   ► hundreds of these very quickly in the time like it would take an actual artist to make

01:12:02 ◼   ► this stuff. You're looking at like, oh, this is thousands of human hours compressed down

01:12:07 ◼   ► to a person's interesting afternoon. So which is the one that you wanted me to find? I don't

01:12:12 ◼   ► know. I can't even Twin Peaks. Twin Peaks. Okay, I've got Bojack Horseman, Borderlands.

01:12:18 ◼   ► It's above that one. Eraser. The eraser head one is also really good. Twin Peaks is above

01:12:24 ◼   ► the Twin Peaks ones. Right. Okay, there we go. Yeah, it just looks like a vinyl puppet.

01:12:28 ◼   ► Yeah, it looks like a vinyl puppet.

01:12:30 ◼   ► These things are really quite good.

01:12:32 ◼   ► This is the first one that caught my attention.

01:12:34 ◼   ► And so I think you're totally right in the timeline of how is this stuff going?

01:12:41 ◼   ► Dolly is the first one that started getting people's attention.

01:12:45 ◼   ► And I think it's very easy to think like Dolly is the best one.

01:12:49 ◼   ► But I've been following this more closely.

01:12:51 ◼   ► And what is really quite amazing is how fast this area is improving.

01:12:57 ◼   ► That Twitter thread is from several months ago, and I'm going to send you one which is

01:13:01 ◼   ► a much more recent one.

01:13:04 ◼   ► This is a Twitter thread that's comparing some of the different programs that are coming

01:13:08 ◼   ► along.

01:13:10 ◼   ► And so Dolly, like you said, is a closed project, you can't get public access to it.

01:13:16 ◼   ► But there's a group that's making another version of this, which is called stable diffusion.

01:13:21 ◼   ► And this is like a publicly available, open source version of the same thing.

01:13:28 ◼   ► And the amount of improvement that this one is making is absolutely freaking breathtaking

01:13:34 ◼   ► of how good stable diffusion is.

01:13:38 ◼   ► And the thing with stable diffusion is unlike Dolly, which is sort of explicitly trying

01:13:43 ◼   ► to be like art, stable diffusion is just trying to make images.

01:13:48 ◼   ► So it's not necessarily trying to be like, "Oh, this is what the Mona Lisa would look

01:13:52 ◼   ► like if Picasso painted it."

01:13:54 ◼   ► I don't understand the distinction.

01:13:56 ◼   ► So I think the distinction can be summed up in one of the examples here, which is if you

01:14:03 ◼   ► scroll a little bit of the way down, the prompt is "behind the scenes shooting of the moon

01:14:09 ◼   ► landing Hollywood studio 1969."

01:14:14 ◼   ► So the prompt there is create an image of the moon landing being faked in 1969.

01:14:22 ◼   ► And I think if you look at those images, Stable Diffusions 1 looks a lot more like just a

01:14:27 ◼   ► natural photograph that someone would have taken.

01:14:31 ◼   ► Whereas the Dolly 2 one almost has a little bit of a feeling of like a Renaissance painting,

01:14:36 ◼   ► right, with the lighting and the way people are staged.

01:14:38 ◼   ► Right, but this is terrible.

01:14:40 ◼   ► Right?

01:14:41 ◼   ► So this is, but do you see what I mean?

01:14:43 ◼   ► Like if someone showed you that stable diffusion image, it's like, "Oh, that just looks

01:14:47 ◼   ► like a photograph that somebody took while the moon landing was being faked?"

01:14:51 ◼   ► - Can't we with Dali though ask it to be photorealistic?

01:14:55 ◼   ► Maybe that wasn't the prompt?

01:14:56 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:14:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I think you have to be more explicit with the Dali stuff about trying to make it

01:15:01 ◼   ► look real.

01:15:02 ◼   ► - Right, 'cause like right at the top of this thread, there's one which is the prompt

01:15:05 ◼   ► is, "Film still portrait of an old man, wrinkles, dignified look, gray silver hair."

01:15:11 ◼   ► Like the Dali 2 one is like, I mean stable diffusion is very good too, but like the,

01:15:18 ◼   ► you know what actually looking at them, I think I see what you mean from this one.

01:15:21 ◼   ► The Dali 2 one looks like…

01:15:24 ◼   ► It's like an amazing Pixar still.

01:15:26 ◼   ► If Pixar did it.

01:15:27 ◼   ► Where the stable diffusion one actually looks more like a photograph.

01:15:30 ◼   ► Yeah, the stable diffusion one looks like it's a real person.

01:15:33 ◼   ► Yeah, I get it.

01:15:34 ◼   ► Now, here's the key thing.

01:15:35 ◼   ► At this stage already, what we're talking about is like incredibly subtle, but I think

01:15:40 ◼   ► it is interesting and important that stable diffusion isn't trying to be an interesting

01:15:46 ◼   ► art project stable diffusion is it seems like they're really aiming for make an image of

01:15:52 ◼   ► what we've typed anything like it and it just looks like an actual image it's not art focused

01:15:59 ◼   ► I'll put all these links in the show notes by the way so people can go because you really

01:16:02 ◼   ► should go see these images. Yeah, so I think this is

01:16:06 ◼   ► it's really caught my attention because I cannot think of an area of technology

01:16:15 ◼   ► recently that I have seen progress as fast as it has as this area of a machine is able to make an

01:16:26 ◼   ► image that you couldn't possibly tell that a human had not made.

01:16:32 ◼   ► And I think this is one of these things that is going to have an absolutely massive impact

01:16:39 ◼   ► on the world very quickly.

01:16:42 ◼   ► Like if you scroll down, there's one that's particularly to me really captures the like

01:16:47 ◼   ► what's going to happen with this.

01:16:50 ◼   ► And the prompt is "low poly game asset, Cthulhu monster, isometric view".

01:16:57 ◼   ► And so this has generated what is a very good model for a computer game if you were going

01:17:05 ◼   ► to have a little computer monster and you wanted it to be in this low poly art style.

01:17:10 ◼   ► Well I mean the stable diffusion one didn't do a good job.

01:17:13 ◼   ► Yeah the stable diffusion one there, I think this is actually where you see the very fact

01:17:17 ◼   ► that stable diffusion is trying to do real images is like oh the stable diffusion one

01:17:22 ◼   ► isn't low poly it actually looks much more like a real thing. Dali too has done the best

01:17:26 ◼   ► job there I think of what you've asked for. But that is also it's the most artistic style

01:17:32 ◼   ► like it is the most artistic interpretation mid journey is another one of these projects

01:17:37 ◼   ► that's doing a similar kind of thing and I think the mid journey one is quite interesting

01:17:41 ◼   ► But it's like, man, I have seen this go from, like, very good to getting like incredibly

01:17:49 ◼   ► specific and it seems to be getting much, much faster so quickly.

01:17:53 ◼   ► And I look at this and I think, man, if I was in the graphic design world in particular,

01:18:01 ◼   ► I would be terrified.

01:18:03 ◼   ► And stable diffusion, I couldn't find any good examples this morning.

01:18:07 ◼   ► There's sort of one directly below there,

01:18:09 ◼   ► but they also have a lot of generate clip art

01:18:13 ◼   ► about whatever, and one of the areas of weakness

01:18:16 ◼   ► is often human stuff, but man,

01:18:19 ◼   ► they're coming for stock photography here.

01:18:21 ◼   ► I think this stuff is gonna just absolutely blow through

01:18:24 ◼   ► the whole industry of stock photography

01:18:27 ◼   ► and just destroy its existence very fast

01:18:31 ◼   ► if someone can, instead of searching on a stock photo site

01:18:34 ◼   ► for an image that happens to be the thing that they want,

01:18:37 ◼   ► like actually just type in, you know,

01:18:39 ◼   ► I need three people in a room with this kind of laptop

01:18:42 ◼   ► looking at a presentation that is this sort of thing.

01:18:45 ◼   ► What do you think about all this, Myke?

01:18:46 ◼   ► Like what's your reaction looking at these images?

01:18:49 ◼   ► - I don't like it.

01:18:52 ◼   ► - Okay, why don't you like it?

01:18:53 ◼   ► - I don't think this is a good precedent.

01:18:57 ◼   ► I feel this way about deepfake technology.

01:19:01 ◼   ► I feel this way about audio AI technology,

01:19:05 ◼   ► which people are always trying to pitch me on.

01:19:08 ◼   ► - Oh yeah?

01:19:09 ◼   ► - We get pitches from companies that are like,

01:19:11 ◼   ► why even read your ads anymore?

01:19:13 ◼   ► - Oh.

01:19:14 ◼   ► - Let us just feed the ad copy

01:19:17 ◼   ► into a AI-generated version of your voice,

01:19:21 ◼   ► and you can save all this time.

01:19:23 ◼   ► - Wow, okay.

01:19:24 ◼   ► - Just like, how about fundamentally,

01:19:26 ◼   ► let me tell you why I think that's a terrible thing.

01:19:29 ◼   ► But there are people that want to do that to my voice.

01:19:33 ◼   ► I don't like the idea that somebody could take my voice

01:19:37 ◼   ► and make me say whatever they want, right?

01:19:41 ◼   ► And so that's the concern I have

01:19:43 ◼   ► for this type of technology,

01:19:45 ◼   ► that it can be used to create fake materials

01:19:48 ◼   ► and that moon landing thing is part of it, right?

01:19:51 ◼   ► How will anybody in the future know what's true?

01:19:56 ◼   ► when in seconds you could create an image

01:20:00 ◼   ► which looks real and share it.

01:20:02 ◼   ► We already have enough of a problem

01:20:05 ◼   ► with people misunderstanding what an image means

01:20:08 ◼   ► or misunderstanding what a sentence means.

01:20:12 ◼   ► What are we gonna do when it is impossible

01:20:15 ◼   ► to work out what's true by looking at something?

01:20:19 ◼   ► When someone can force you to have that misunderstanding

01:20:23 ◼   ► based on showing you something

01:20:24 ◼   ► you're supposed to believe of your eyes

01:20:26 ◼   ► because your eyes tell you what's true, right?

01:20:29 ◼   ► You see this image.

01:20:31 ◼   ► Like if you said to me, oh my God,

01:20:32 ◼   ► look at this image that was released of the moon landing.

01:20:35 ◼   ► It was fake.

01:20:36 ◼   ► I would be like, oh my God, he's right.

01:20:39 ◼   ► Because it just looks like that, right?

01:20:43 ◼   ► And so that's part one.

01:20:44 ◼   ► And then part two is, what I care about is artists,

01:20:48 ◼   ► individuals trying to make a living.

01:20:50 ◼   ► And what they want to do is they want to be illustrators

01:20:55 ◼   ► and they want to illustrate things for newspapers or whatever.

01:20:58 ◼   ► And I worry about that entire industry of people that want to create graphic design

01:21:05 ◼   ► people who work with you.

01:21:06 ◼   ► Oh my god, how easy would it be?

01:21:09 ◼   ► Because you have such a defined art style, there's so much of it, you could just make

01:21:14 ◼   ► all of your animations in theory based on feeding it prompts.

01:21:20 ◼   ► And I just don't like any.

01:21:23 ◼   ► I don't like the idea that all of these creative people would be put at risk because I don't

01:21:33 ◼   ► believe in the idea of a computer being able to have the artistic vision of a human. I

01:21:42 ◼   ► just don't think that that's possible. And the bigger issue is all of this is feeding

01:21:47 ◼   ► on the back of people's human beings already existing work right so go back to that Kermit

01:21:53 ◼   ► thing we talk about the Miyazaki movie well it can only generate that because the AI has

01:22:00 ◼   ► been pointed to the Miyazaki movies because there's no way it could know what that means

01:22:04 ◼   ► you can't say to an AI create put Kermit the Frog in Spirited Away if it's never seen what

01:22:10 ◼   ► spirited away looks like. So it can create this... it's like we were to be in a

01:22:17 ◼   ► situation where there is no more new inspiration anymore. We'll draw a line at

01:22:22 ◼   ► 2045 that was the last time that human beings were allowed to make anything of

01:22:26 ◼   ► their own and now computers just make it all and we're in this continued refresh

01:22:31 ◼   ► of content that's just made based on everything that came in the hundred

01:22:35 ◼   ► years before it. I don't like this. This is a very fun thing to play around with because

01:22:41 ◼   ► it's fun right now. I don't like the future ramifications of this computer generated content

01:22:48 ◼   ► where there's no human interaction outside of here's a string of text, now it's done.

01:22:56 ◼   ► It makes me uncomfortable. I worry about the future of creative endeavors because of technology

01:23:02 ◼   ► like this?

01:23:03 ◼   ► Yeah, when you say a sentence like you don't think that the computer will be able to generate

01:23:11 ◼   ► new things and it will always be a kind of remix.

01:23:15 ◼   ► I don't go along with that as a general statement.

01:23:19 ◼   ► But that is how AI works, right?

01:23:21 ◼   ► So like, you couldn't create an AI system without it having sucked in all this other

01:23:26 ◼   ► information.

01:23:27 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, no, don't remember, there's two separate issues here.

01:23:29 ◼   ► Like, there's a lot in this conversation, and there's one side that often comes out

01:23:35 ◼   ► where people are like, "Ah, it'll never have the inspiration of a human."

01:23:39 ◼   ► And I do think that is true now, and that probably will be true for a while, but I don't

01:23:45 ◼   ► think that's a fundamental truth.

01:23:47 ◼   ► I'm not sure we should pursue that anyway.

01:23:52 ◼   ► How about we stop before the point where we allow computers to think on their own?

01:23:57 ◼   ► How about that?

01:23:58 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:24:00 ◼   ► Yes, I didn't expect us to go like this hard

01:24:04 ◼   ► and this fast into this topic,

01:24:05 ◼   ► but I guess I also think why is this so interesting

01:24:09 ◼   ► is because I think this is something

01:24:10 ◼   ► that you can show to people, and I have shown to people,

01:24:14 ◼   ► if you try to have the conversation about,

01:24:16 ◼   ► "Oh, actually, I think AI is a terrifying existential threat

01:24:20 ◼   ► for the human race."

01:24:21 ◼   ► People are like, "That's dumb."

01:24:23 ◼   ► And you're like, "Okay, tell me what you think

01:24:25 ◼   ► computer can't do. And creativity is often very high up on that list. This stuff is doing a bunch

01:24:33 ◼   ► of remixing. There is no denying about that. But this is also just like blows past what a lot of

01:24:39 ◼   ► people think computers would even be possible of doing, creating this kind of art just immediately.

01:24:45 ◼   ► And the thing that I see happen in these conversations is people over the past few months

01:24:51 ◼   ► have been pointing out, they're going, "Oh yeah, the dolly stuff is really good, but

01:24:55 ◼   ► it's not great at textures." You know, "Oh, you can see that the textures don't work perfectly

01:25:00 ◼   ► on a bunch of the art that it generates." It's like, "Okay, yeah, cool." You wait two

01:25:04 ◼   ► months and they release the new version and you go, "Oh, it's way better at textures."

01:25:07 ◼   ► Like it keeps getting better at all of the things. They go, "Oh, it's not good at creating

01:25:11 ◼   ► text on these images." And it's like, "Okay, I've already seen it keep getting better and

01:25:15 ◼   ► better at text at every iteration." And I just think the final version of that for people

01:25:20 ◼   ► is always "oh yeah, but ultimately it can't be creative in a new way" and I just don't

01:25:28 ◼   ► think that that argument will ultimately hold. Like, I think there will be a version of this

01:25:32 ◼   ► that generates new stuff that isn't just remixes of the old things in different kinds

01:25:41 ◼   ► of ways. And there's huge concerns about that.

01:25:44 ◼   ► I see the argument of like human beings create this way.

01:25:49 ◼   ► We create based on what we've seen,

01:25:52 ◼   ► but I just don't understand,

01:25:53 ◼   ► why can't we just continue to let humans do that?

01:25:55 ◼   ► Why do we now need to have machines do it?

01:25:57 ◼   ► Why do we need to have an AI platform

01:26:00 ◼   ► that can create artwork with little effort put in?

01:26:05 ◼   ► I don't know why that's needed in the world, right?

01:26:14 ◼   ► outside of it being a curiosity.

01:26:16 ◼   ► If that's all it ever is, is it just exists

01:26:18 ◼   ► as it currently does, like people share these things

01:26:20 ◼   ► on Twitter, it's like, "Ha ha, look at this funny thing

01:26:22 ◼   ► that I made."

01:26:22 ◼   ► But that's not why people were building this.

01:26:25 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:26:26 ◼   ► - And I am not comfortable with the idea of

01:26:31 ◼   ► suggesting that the work of artistic people

01:26:40 ◼   ► should be replaced by AI systems.

01:26:45 ◼   ► I'm just not comfortable with that.

01:26:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'll give you something

01:26:49 ◼   ► that makes me really uncomfortable.

01:26:50 ◼   ► So I'm gonna send you a link.

01:26:53 ◼   ► There's so many projects in this world,

01:26:55 ◼   ► like it's hard to keep all of the different groups straight,

01:26:57 ◼   ► so I'm simply not even gonna try.

01:26:58 ◼   ► Like there's another group that is working

01:27:01 ◼   ► in this same field, and it's a project

01:27:04 ◼   ► that they're calling Textual Inversion.

01:27:08 ◼   ► And so right now with all of these systems, you kind of type in, oh, Kermit the Frog,

01:27:13 ◼   ► but he's in Blade Runner, and you try Kermit the Frog and a bunch of different things.

01:27:18 ◼   ► But what they what they don't have is any kind of sense of continuity.

01:27:25 ◼   ► So all of these things are just individual, one off prompts.

01:27:29 ◼   ► And either you write a prompt and you get a good image or you don't.

01:27:32 ◼   ► But you can't create like a series of related images because everything just exists independently.

01:27:40 ◼   ► So of course, people were like, "Aha, that's why like this won't go everywhere because

01:27:44 ◼   ► the machine doesn't really understand what you mean by like Kermit the Frog.

01:27:49 ◼   ► You can't create a little animation with a stable Kermit the Frog.

01:27:53 ◼   ► All of these things are just one off."

01:27:54 ◼   ► So it's like, "Oh, well, textual inversion is working to solve that problem where they're

01:28:00 ◼   ► They're working to really nail down a particular concept that can then be expressed by these

01:28:07 ◼   ► machines.

01:28:08 ◼   ► And so they have a bunch of examples on this page of like, hey, if you give the computer

01:28:15 ◼   ► a bunch of images, it's really going to try to nail down pulling out a particular concept

01:28:22 ◼   ► that you want to repeat, and to make this process easier.

01:28:26 ◼   ► And so like, okay, you scroll down on their page, and like, there's a bunch of AI generated

01:28:30 ◼   ► art images, but I just happened to click on one and follow it through.

01:28:36 ◼   ► And I think it gets to the heart of like, "Boy, this is really uncomfortable."

01:28:40 ◼   ► So they have a section called "Learning to represent styles."

01:28:45 ◼   ► You feed it a bunch of somebody's art and you try to teach it,

01:28:50 ◼   ► "This is a style that this person has made."

01:28:54 ◼   ► And so they say like, "Okay, here's these four images that we've inputted."

01:28:57 ◼   ► And now we can say like, "Oh, what if this person was to paint the streets of Paris? What if this

01:29:04 ◼   ► person was to paint an adorable corgi?" And they have this art style that's kind of like a colorful,

01:29:10 ◼   ► psychedelic style. And they happen to credit whose art style that is. And so it's this person called

01:29:17 ◼   ► Queenie Art. And I clicked and went to follow this person. And it's someone on DeviantArt who died

01:29:27 ◼   ► from cancer.

01:29:28 ◼   ► "Great.

01:29:29 ◼   ► Yeah, this is what we want."

01:29:30 ◼   ► Oh!

01:29:31 ◼   ► Like, I presume that this was someone whose permission you got to be part of the project?

01:29:37 ◼   ► No, this is a person who was an artist on DeviantArt and, like, had a very unique style.

01:29:44 ◼   ► And their last post on DeviantArt is from several years ago saying they have stage four

01:29:51 ◼   ► cancer and they're not gonna live for another year.

01:29:53 ◼   ► I'm sorry!

01:29:54 ◼   ► What the f*ck just happened here?

01:29:57 ◼   ► We could talk about like the machines copying people's styles, but this is a particularly

01:30:02 ◼   ► awful example of like, "oh, did the people who put together this project even know?"

01:30:09 ◼   ► Like, are they just-

01:30:10 ◼   ► But don't worry, Gray.

01:30:11 ◼   ► It says "image reproduction authorized for non-commercial use only."

01:30:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:30:16 ◼   ► So it's okay.

01:30:17 ◼   ► Yeah, that's the reason it caught my attention is they had this explicit disclaimer like,

01:30:22 ◼   ► We've made new art in this dead person style.

01:30:25 ◼   ► It's for non-commercial use only."

01:30:27 ◼   ► That was the whole reason I clicked the link.

01:30:28 ◼   ► I was like, "Oh, what's the deal with this artist?

01:30:30 ◼   ► I wonder, did they put a bunch of stuff in the creative comment?"

01:30:33 ◼   ► Like I just, I just didn't know.

01:30:34 ◼   ► I was curious.

01:30:35 ◼   ► And then I just-

01:30:36 ◼   ► No copyright intended.

01:30:37 ◼   ► It's fine.

01:30:38 ◼   ► It's like I stumbled upon like, "Oh, they're dead."

01:30:40 ◼   ► I feel like the world has been bumping up against this concept in a variety of different

01:30:47 ◼   ► ways.

01:30:48 ◼   ► The first place you start to see this is like, oh, having dead actors in movies and like,

01:30:53 ◼   ► okay, there's a bunch of ways in which you can kind of clear the rights on this.

01:30:57 ◼   ► But now we have computer programs that are just like, hoovering up everything that exists

01:31:04 ◼   ► on the internet.

01:31:06 ◼   ► And then also being able to like, target an individual.

01:31:10 ◼   ► Okay, that person, we want the machine to make more of that person, and they're dead,

01:31:17 ◼   ► do it and it that feels really awful it feels really awful in in so many ways

01:31:22 ◼   ► it's like an abuse of some kind well like I'm trying to think of the word

01:31:27 ◼   ► but it's like wrong mm-hmm it just feels wrong it's like taking advantage of them

01:31:34 ◼   ► yeah in a way like I don't it's very uncomfortable that's a terrible example

01:31:39 ◼   ► yeah I know right it's like it's one of the worst things I've stumbled upon in

01:31:43 ◼   ► this whole world like and I don't you know I don't know the backstory like you

01:31:46 ◼   ► know, maybe there's some like really reasonable explanation for this.

01:31:50 ◼   ► Hey look, maybe this person will contribute to this system, whatever.

01:31:54 ◼   ► But like, yeah, the point is not necessarily this one.

01:31:57 ◼   ► It is just a proof of the point that this can and will happen.

01:32:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:32:02 ◼   ► Right.

01:32:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:32:03 ◼   ► And that there's, there's like teams that are trying to solve the very specific

01:32:08 ◼   ► problem of, oh, we want to be able to replicate an exact thing consistently,

01:32:14 ◼   ► a bunch with like a stable concept of like this person's art style like or this object

01:32:20 ◼   ► and and maintain it over time.

01:32:22 ◼   ► This is so messed up.

01:32:24 ◼   ► Yeah it's incredibly messed up and I just keep wondering when one of these systems is

01:32:32 ◼   ► going to come across some kind of copyright constraint and like the Miyazaki one is really

01:32:39 ◼   ► the one that that kind of caught my attention because you feel like Miyazaki's movies, they're

01:32:45 ◼   ► beloved. And as often the case with like, someone who creates art that is beloved, it's

01:32:51 ◼   ► partly because that creator has very specific ideas about how they want their artwork created,

01:32:59 ◼   ► very often how they want it distributed, what circumstances under which they view it. I

01:33:05 ◼   ► I think another good example of this is that I always think of and give huge

01:33:09 ◼   ► respect to is, is the author of Calvin and Hobbes, like Calvin and Hobbes is a

01:33:13 ◼   ► hugely successful strip comic book strip.

01:33:16 ◼   ► And part of the reason is because the creator was incredibly picky

01:33:21 ◼   ► about how is this reproduced?

01:33:24 ◼   ► He like, he never wanted it merchandised.

01:33:26 ◼   ► He never wanted like a bunch of different things done with it.

01:33:29 ◼   ► And that's part of the reason why like, Oh, these comics.

01:33:34 ◼   ► They're really untouched and magical in a way that very few things are in the modern world.

01:33:39 ◼   ► And like, I cannot express how sad I would be if someone was like, "Oh,

01:33:43 ◼   ► hey, I made an AI that just spits out brand new Calvin and Hobbs strips all

01:33:47 ◼   ► the time because I'm sad that the author isn't making them anymore."

01:33:51 ◼   ► It's like, no, please, please don't do that.

01:33:53 ◼   ► That's, that's terrible.

01:33:55 ◼   ► And also kind of like ruins the thing that you're trying to do.

01:33:58 ◼   ► Like, I don't know.

01:34:00 ◼   ► I feel like there's incredible and scary economic impacts for everyone who works in the art

01:34:09 ◼   ► world in any way.

01:34:11 ◼   ► And there's also just massive society impacts coming from this kind of thing in like every

01:34:19 ◼   ► possible direction that you can look.

01:34:21 ◼   ► Like I said, there's this weird kind of taking advantage of people who've put their art out

01:34:27 ◼   ► in the world.

01:34:29 ◼   ► And then there's just the, like you said, the mere question of, man, like if you thought

01:34:34 ◼   ► it was hard to know what things are real before when you can fake photographic, and we all

01:34:41 ◼   ► know, very soon, video evidence of anything is like, man, that is terrible for the world.

01:34:49 ◼   ► I mean, look, if this was such a thing that could be constrained to "isn't this a

01:34:56 ◼   ► fun little curiosity. I have no problem with it. I think it's fun to see this stuff produced,

01:35:03 ◼   ► right? Like, to see people creating Kermit the Frog in the style of Twin Peaks. It's

01:35:10 ◼   ► like this is really funny, right? Like this is like a funny little thing, share it on

01:35:13 ◼   ► Twitter and everybody says, "Hey, look what I put into Dali," right? I have no problem

01:35:18 ◼   ► with that because it's like, well, here's the thing we're doing and it's like, like,

01:35:22 ◼   ► not no problem. I barely have any problems with it. It's just like whatever. We know

01:35:25 ◼   ► it's a fake image, etc.

01:35:28 ◼   ► Yeah, in the same way that if an actual human had created like, "Hey, I'm a real fan

01:35:33 ◼   ► of Kermit the Frog and I'm a real fan of Blade Runner, and look at me, I put them together."

01:35:38 ◼   ► I don't think anyone would really have a problem with that.

01:35:41 ◼   ► It doesn't matter.

01:35:42 ◼   ► It's just like, "Oh, this is fun fan art of things that you like."

01:35:46 ◼   ► But it's the next phase of it that I just can't reconcile in my brain of like, what

01:35:53 ◼   ► comes after this then. What happens to special effects artists? What happens to illustrators?

01:36:01 ◼   ► What happens to podcasters? What happens if we just decide that we're all good with the

01:36:11 ◼   ► AI just doing this for us? I just don't think it's a good thing and we don't need it. Right?

01:36:22 ◼   ► And so I don't really understand what the point of it is, especially when there's going

01:36:29 ◼   ► to be a selection of people that take this technology, package it, and sell it to companies

01:36:40 ◼   ► to be like, "You don't need this anymore, like all these people.

01:36:44 ◼   ► Give us some money, which is less, and you can use our software."

01:36:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:36:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:36:50 ◼   ► What I have just seen develop recently with this stuff is the beginning

01:36:54 ◼   ► of the commercialization of it.

01:36:56 ◼   ► And so there's a weird website, which I don't entirely understand like how

01:37:00 ◼   ► this, how or why this works, but there's a, there's a website already where people

01:37:04 ◼   ► can like buy or sell good prompts for generating art because right now, since

01:37:11 ◼   ► it is so costly to generate this stuff, like you don't want to mess around

01:37:15 ◼   ► unnecessarily, it's like already people are doing this thing of like, "Oh, I can sell you a pack of

01:37:21 ◼   ► prompts that will help you cut down on the difficulty of figuring out what looks cool."

01:37:27 ◼   ► Actually, there's a good article I found, which is trying to get an image of like a llama playing

01:37:30 ◼   ► basketball. Like the key phrases that you want are dramatic backlighting. Like that's one of

01:37:34 ◼   ► the things that makes this photo of a llama playing basketball awesome. But so I think

01:37:38 ◼   ► that this website is trying to commercialize that, but the most directly commercial thing

01:37:44 ◼   ► that I've seen, which I'll send you, is a Photoshop plugin that connects to stable diffusion.

01:37:52 ◼   ► And so it's like, okay, this is already being worked into professional tools. And you can see

01:38:00 ◼   ► like, oh, using this plugin, a Photoshop expert who doesn't have any artistic skill, can just

01:38:06 ◼   ► start selecting images of the screen and ask stable diffusion to fill in what they actually

01:38:13 ◼   ► want in this image. And I just think like, oh my god, like, here we go. Like, this is

01:38:17 ◼   ► totally the beginning of it has real commercial purposes. It is not just a, like you said,

01:38:25 ◼   ► a fun toy. And given how fast this stuff has developed, like I cannot imagine where this

01:38:30 ◼   ► is going to be a year from now. I keep seeing people say like, Oh, you know, you're not

01:38:35 ◼   ► going to be able to make video out of this. Like, it's just going to be still images.

01:38:39 ◼   ► Like guys, video, I hate to break it to you.

01:38:42 ◼   ► It's just a sequence of still images.

01:38:45 ◼   ► Like it's not magic.

01:38:46 ◼   ► It's just way more computationally intensive.

01:38:49 ◼   ► But I've already seen videos on YouTube that I am absolutely sure are 100% AI

01:38:55 ◼   ► generated where it's like, there's a voice.

01:38:58 ◼   ► It sounds pretty good, but it makes me suspicious.

01:39:00 ◼   ► Like I don't think it's actually a person.

01:39:02 ◼   ► It basically sounds like it's summarizing through language models,

01:39:08 ◼   ► like a Wikipedia article about a topic and they have, you know, a bunch of stock images,

01:39:15 ◼   ► which are mostly connected to the narration, but not entirely.

01:39:19 ◼   ► And it's like, that stuff exists on YouTube already.

01:39:21 ◼   ► Like I'm very certain that those things are AI generated and they're just going to keep

01:39:25 ◼   ► getting better and better and better.

01:39:28 ◼   ► And I was like, I met a guy at a conference who was working on some AI research stuff

01:39:35 ◼   ► And he said that he had instituted this guideline that he was no longer reading or watching

01:39:43 ◼   ► anything that he wasn't absolutely sure was produced by a real person.

01:39:49 ◼   ► At the time, I thought this was kind of crazy, right?

01:39:53 ◼   ► I thought like, "Whoa, dude, you know, you're really like, that's a real stance to take."

01:39:59 ◼   ► And you know, the more I see of the stuff that stable diffusion is doing, the more I

01:40:03 ◼   ► feel like, "Man, I don't know, like maybe that just is a good policy very soon? Like,

01:40:08 ◼   ► only read stuff that you know is written by a person?" Because we just haven't touched on it

01:40:14 ◼   ► here, but I think the art stuff really visually catches people's attention. But there are projects

01:40:21 ◼   ► that do this with language, where they write things. And can you tell that a person did or

01:40:26 ◼   ► did not write this sentence? No, you can't tell. And like the language models are also getting very,

01:40:32 ◼   ► very good, very fast, and they're also really starting to understand human concepts in a

01:40:41 ◼   ► way that's like, "Boy, this is all just absolutely terrifying."

01:40:44 ◼   ► So yeah, I don't know.

01:40:46 ◼   ► Maybe it's significantly less crazy now than it was at the time, or maybe like, "Oh,

01:40:51 ◼   ► this guy just could kind of see what was coming," but yeah, I don't know how we're going

01:40:57 ◼   ► to survive in a world where it is incredibly cheap to produce a huge amount of content

01:41:07 ◼   ► and distribute that content widely compared to what humans can create and distribute.

01:41:14 ◼   ► Like we have enough problems sorting through the world, but it's just dealing with stuff

01:41:20 ◼   ► that humans make.

01:41:21 ◼   ► I don't know how this is going to go down when at some point the majority of material

01:41:26 ◼   ► being generated is not being generated by humans.

01:41:30 ◼   ► I think that is going to be a very confusing world to live in.

01:41:33 ◼   ► - Before we go.

01:41:37 ◼   ► - On that cheery note, for action you can take today for something that is unambiguously

01:41:42 ◼   ► good, Saint Jude.

01:41:45 ◼   ► - Saintjude.org/relay.

01:41:49 ◼   ► Go there now, donate, find out more about fundraising, tune into the Podcast-A-Thon

01:41:53 ◼   ► on September 16th. Be a part of this. Let's cure childhood cancer together.