102: Lockdown Productivity

0:00:00So how you doing?

0:00:01Myke, nothing in my world is different from the last time we spoke.

0:00:06Everything is the same. So let's just go straight into the show.

0:00:10Alright, so we said that we were going to talk about your Spaceship You video.

0:00:13I was initially, I think at the end of the last episode, I referenced it as like,

0:00:18"Oh, we're going to talk a lot about working from home," right?

0:00:22Yeah, this is Cortex-102.

0:00:25And I think in your initial pitch of we're over a hundred and four podcast numbers that are easy for you to remember when referencing stuff for people in the future.

0:00:36101 was like productivity 101 and then if we're following the college numbering structure, this would be course 102, working from home, I think was the was the rough idea.

0:00:47But the more I thought about it and the more that, because I've watched the video,

0:00:52I watched the director's commentary that you put out for your Patreon subscribers.

0:00:56And I kind of realized that this idea and the time that we're in

0:01:02right now, it's more than just working from home.

0:01:05It's bringing your work to home, but doing everything at home.

0:01:11And that's slightly different.

0:01:14So like, working from home will be a part of this episode, but it's also gonna have

0:01:20some quarantine working from home, which is a different thing.

0:01:24It's like an extra level.

0:01:26It's like level two of working from home.

0:01:29Because not only are you working from home, you also can't then go out afterwards.

0:01:34You just go to another part of the home.

0:01:37It's a very different beast.

0:01:39Yeah, it's working from home/working from home arrest.

0:01:44That's a little bit what it's like.

0:01:46Right, right. It's a house arrest type deal.

0:01:48Yeah.

0:01:49Okay. I hadn't thought of it in those terms yet.

0:01:51I'm kind of pleased that you went with the spaceship metaphor rather than the prisoner metaphor for the video.

0:01:57Yeah, no, the spaceship metaphor is much better for a whole variety of reasons.

0:02:01Yeah.

0:02:02No, I get what you mean that in the situation of doing everything from home is like a level of difficulty above

0:02:10simply a conversation about working from home.

0:02:15But one necessarily contains the other.

0:02:17And also the whole like circumstances around working from home right now

0:02:22is typically different to the before time of working from home

0:02:26which was that most people would choose it.

0:02:29and it was like, I have this great thing now, I've always wanted to work from home

0:02:34and stay in my pajamas and do my work. And so it was like, for a lot of people, like a success

0:02:41or a badge of honor or like a reward, but now it's like, you gotta do it whether you wanna do it or

0:02:48not. And there are people that do and there are people that don't and there are people that think

0:02:52that they can't, right, or people that actually can't. And it's a very different way of being

0:02:58put into this environment for a lot of people with no time to prepare.

0:03:03Yeah, I also think, because there are great challenges of working from home, which are

0:03:09non-obvious before you actually do it, for sure there has been a proportion of people

0:03:15who were always thinking, "God, I would just love to work from home," who are now going,

0:03:20"Nope!"

0:03:21I have been disabused of my fanciful idea about what it would be like to work at home

0:03:29and it's a time when you can recognize how helpful a lot of the structures in the world

0:03:36are that you may otherwise just take for granted.

0:03:39You're like, "Oh, working from home, it's going to be just like working in the office

0:03:44except minus all the annoying parts."

0:03:46It's like, "Oh no, that's not what it's like."

0:03:49about a different set of annoying parts? You can have that instead. So I actually think

0:03:53in, you know, looking at this in real time, like people listening in real time in May

0:03:58of 2020, this is probably a good time to do this episode, to have this discussion, because

0:04:05most people that have started working from home, the shine will have worn off by now.

0:04:10Yeah, for sure. So this is a good time to maybe you think you understand or have understood

0:04:16like the way that this is working for you, maybe we can help add some stuff in to make

0:04:21it a little bit more easy and more manageable. So SpaceshipU is the concept behind this video.

0:04:28Can you give a recap of the overall idea of what this concept means?

0:04:34Yeah, I think the way I would put it is if there's anything that I feel like I know

0:04:41about being productive and working is this important concept of the separation of spaces

0:04:51and to associate doing different activities in different areas.

0:04:57This for me is something that over the course of my life has been an idea that maybe is

0:05:00like the most persistent idea that has stuck with me in all the various iterations of how

0:05:06I work is always trying to be very strict about you do work in this area and you relax

0:05:12in this area and to separate those things out. So this has been a real background idea

0:05:19that I think once I talk about it in terms of Spaceship You, it becomes obvious like,

0:05:24"Oh, I've been discussing this idea in various different ways for years," is kind

0:05:29of like coming back to the same concept.

0:05:31Like going to the library to write.

0:05:33Yes, exactly.

0:05:34And the thing with SpaceshipU is there's now this great framing device, which is a global pandemic,

0:05:46which I think really highlights the need for structure in a person's life in ways that may not have been obvious before.

0:05:58And so I think that this is really this key concept of either working from home or just being in a self-isolation situation

0:06:09that there's this really key meta skill which is creating structure for yourself.

0:06:16And that can mean a lot of different things,

0:06:19But I think that one of the easiest ways to get started with this concept is with as much

0:06:27physical separation of the

0:06:30spaces that you possibly can do.

0:06:33And so, I think the four starter spaces that I have for if you're in an environment is like,

0:06:38you need a place to sleep,

0:06:40you need a place to work,

0:06:42you need a place to exercise,

0:06:44and you need a place to relax.

0:06:46And as much as you can distinguish those spaces from each other, you should do that.

0:06:52And so I think that's the overall idea of what's going on with Spaceship U.

0:06:56But you present it in a really nice way of like showing the isolation as being in space.

0:07:02Like it's just like a really clever way to create something softer than what's actually happening.

0:07:07I'm being a little delicate.

0:07:10And I think it was the right way to do it.

0:07:12I remember when you told me about this idea and

0:07:15Like I really pressed on you that I thought it was a good one to pursue

0:07:19Right because the framing device is so much better than if you just presented this video

0:07:24Even like the yearly themes

0:07:27Video that you did where you're like I have this idea that I think will be useful to you in the situation that we're in

0:07:32Go around your home and do this stuff

0:07:34It's way too real but showing it in this

0:07:39fictionalized world of like we're all going up in space because the world isn't habitable anymore, right?

0:07:45And we're gonna take care of it and then you can come back.

0:07:47It's a way nicer way to get this message across to me in

0:07:51an entertaining way rather than in a way where I have to face my reality while watching it.

0:07:57Right. You're just floating in a little spaceship. Yeah, you're not locked down in your home.

0:08:02Yeah. They're two fundamentally different things.

0:08:05And it allows for a nice like metaphorical separation for when you are trying to put these things into effect at home anyway

0:08:12You know like it helps you think like oh, I'm just priming the physical part of the core, right?

0:08:19Like that's what I'm doing right now and it's just nice. I think those I think humans like that type of stuff

0:08:25No

0:08:25I I agree with that and it also sort of goes to the theme video that I made where there's a question of resonance

0:08:31And I think it's easier for these ideas to sometimes resonate with people in a particular form.

0:08:38And in talking to people, I could see that the spaceship idea was resonant with a lot of people.

0:08:44I'm like, "Oh, okay, good. This is on the right track."

0:08:47But part of the reason I was able to make the video so quickly is because it is also an idea

0:08:51that I've been trying to write and work on in various forms.

0:08:56Like, spoiler alert, you know, these aren't just good ideas for the pandemic.

0:09:01This is, you know, Spaceship U is life.

0:09:03But I'd never quite found the right way to pitch it.

0:09:08And so yeah, like the pandemic provided both the idea

0:09:13of the spaceship, which had never really crossed

0:09:15my mind before, and it is a nice framing device.

0:09:18I do have it in the back of my mind that maybe

0:09:20at some point in the future, I'd like to do like a,

0:09:22like a Spaceship U version two, if there's a way to do it

0:09:26and remove the framing of the pandemic, but you know,

0:09:29know, that'll be like at some point in the future maybe.

0:09:32- Yeah, I mean, well, 'cause that is the second part of it.

0:09:34That is almost the yearly themes idea part of it,

0:09:37of like, these are just good ideas

0:09:39that you can put into effect in your life always.

0:09:43- Yeah, yeah, and I'm really happy with the way it came out.

0:09:45I had this little bit of a conflict of,

0:09:48because I don't really like to do videos

0:09:50that are contemporary, I just had this little bit

0:09:54of a conflict of like, oh man, this is an idea

0:09:56I've been mulling over for like a decade,

0:09:58and I don't entirely want to spend it on a contemporary video,

0:10:03but I'm glad I did.

0:10:04Like, I'm glad I did this, and if I want to do a version two that more generalizes it,

0:10:10that's always an option, but I'm glad I did it this way.

0:10:13And it's been very positively received, so I've been pleased with the way it came out.

0:10:18But, you know, like, I think if this show has proved anything,

0:10:21the two of us always have various ideas about being productive.

0:10:25like, you know, you can incorporate these into another thing later on, right?

0:10:29Like they're not burned by being used here.

0:10:32But I think it was good to put this out there for now.

0:10:37This idea of there are like these four things, you've got to be physical,

0:10:40you've got to have somewhere to work, you've got to have somewhere to sleep,

0:10:44you've got to have somewhere to relax and that these spaces need to be defined in

0:10:48some way. It's really good. Like it is a very powerful message.

0:10:53But I actually want to jump ahead a little bit in what I prepared for today to

0:10:57talk about some of the practicalities of creating these spaces at home.

0:11:01Cause I know like I've been,

0:11:03I've been reading some of the feedback to the video and stuff.

0:11:05And I think that's something that a lot of people have struggled with,

0:11:08which is like, I live in a one bedroom apartment or I have children,

0:11:13you know, like there were like various reasons why I can't split up my home.

0:11:18Like I have one computer, how can, and it's fixed to a desk.

0:11:21like how am I supposed to do this?

0:11:24And I thought that maybe here we have a lot more time

0:11:27to expand than you do in the videos, right?

0:11:30So maybe we could dig into some of these practical things

0:11:34a little bit, so kind of the idea of if you wanna do this,

0:11:39how do you split up your living environment

0:11:42to give you these four things?

0:11:45So let's imagine, maybe we could do some scenarios here,

0:11:49Let's imagine someone who lives with other people, they live in a flat share, they have

0:11:54just a bedroom.

0:11:55They maybe have a desk, a small desk, which their laptop lives on, and that's all that

0:12:01they have.

0:12:02Like a laptop, a desk, a chair, and a bed.

0:12:04Like how would you start thinking about, or even is there a way that you can start thinking

0:12:09about somebody being able to divide up those sections in their living space?

0:12:14- Yeah, well, it's an interesting thing

0:12:16because with this part of it,

0:12:20how do you adapt this to you in particular?

0:12:23There's a variety of things that are possible

0:12:25and you have to be looking for

0:12:28what are the things that work for you.

0:12:31And so, it's funny that you have this as the first one

0:12:34because I was thinking about when I lived in London

0:12:38and I was newly married,

0:12:40My wife and I shared a single room in a flat share.

0:12:44Right.

0:12:45And it was like the two of us in one bedroom.

0:12:48And then there were, uh, some flatmates who had their own bedrooms.

0:12:52I wonder what it's like to be CGP Grey's flatmate.

0:12:54Perfectly fine.

0:12:57You know, but, but it's like, I think that's probably the most, I guess maybe

0:13:06aside from college and sharing a dorm room,

0:13:11maybe that was the most space constrained

0:13:14I've ever been in a living situation.

0:13:16- I've started you out on hard mode here.

0:13:19- Oh yeah, yeah. - I have particularly

0:13:20chosen hard mode, 'cause I know that this is a thing

0:13:23that a lot of our listeners will be dealing with

0:13:25if they live in big cities or if they're young.

0:13:28- Yeah, and so when I was writing this,

0:13:31I had in mind some of these kind of situations in life,

0:13:35or when I lived in a studio apartment or all the rest of it.

0:13:38So in this scenario, if you're living in a flat share,

0:13:43it is very probable that you do have a laptop, right?

0:13:48Like you probably don't have a big desktop computer.

0:13:51- Yeah, I'm assuming laptop is probably the thing

0:13:55for most people here.

0:13:57- And so how can you divide stuff?

0:14:00I think the biggest place to start

0:14:02is the recreation work division there.

0:14:07And on a computer, the thing that I would totally do

0:14:10is to have two different accounts on that computer

0:14:13to separate out the work from recreation.

0:14:18And so the way I used to do this

0:14:22is one of the accounts on my computer

0:14:24was everything is installed on this account.

0:14:27It was the kind of default account.

0:14:30And I had a separate account then

0:14:31that was for just writing.

0:14:34So that's the way I divided those two.

0:14:37- Different desktop backgrounds.

0:14:38- Yeah, so you have two accounts,

0:14:40you can change what programs are available to you

0:14:43in each of those accounts.

0:14:45Yeah, you wanna have different desktop backgrounds,

0:14:48for sure, that's something you wanna do.

0:14:50So it like visually looks as different as possible.

0:14:55I would probably say though, that for most people,

0:14:58if you're gonna do two accounts,

0:15:00You probably actually want to more clearly separate out like the recreation.

0:15:06So like the video game part of it.

0:15:08So if you got steam installed on your computer, I would probably say like if I don't know

0:15:13something about someone's work, you want to quarantine that part of it and you know, have

0:15:19the other account for sort of everything.

0:15:21The work account should be where everything is.

0:15:25Yeah.

0:15:26And the recreation account can be where the games and stuff are.

0:15:29I think that is kind of counter to the way that we usually talk about things.

0:15:33We both, when we're looking at work stuff, try and pare it down.

0:15:37But again, like these situations are different.

0:15:39This is a very particular type of thing.

0:15:42Unless you're in a situation where you know that you have like one mission critical activity

0:15:49that is really high value and you want to cordon that off, I think the problem that

0:15:53most people are going to deal with is the reverse problem of especially in a lockdown

0:16:00situation that like recreation just kind of spreads everywhere and it's it's really easy

0:16:06to just start looking at YouTube or to like you know oh I'm just gonna take a quick 20

0:16:14minute factorial break which is like something that no human on earth has ever accomplished

0:16:18and you're trying to isolate that stuff.

0:16:22Again, this will depend differently on like different operating systems.

0:16:26But the nice thing about having separate accounts is you can also do things like

0:16:29having the websites blocked on one account but not the other.

0:16:32Like there's a lot of ways to play around with this.

0:16:34But for beginners starting for sure,

0:16:37pick out all the entertainment recreation stuff and put that into an account

0:16:42and make it live there, have a different desktop background,

0:16:46anything else that you can change about the way that account looks, you should totally do it,

0:16:50so that it seems as different as possible. And then, this is the dumbest thing in the world,

0:16:55but I did this when I lived in a studio and I just had one desk and a laptop, is sitting at that desk

0:17:03facing the wall, that was work mode, and then I would just move the chair around to the edge of

0:17:10the desk so that my I was like looking at the room that was like recreation mode and these things can

0:17:16be really dumb like that but I have really found that if you are consistent about it

0:17:23it trains your brain into this mode you're what you're trying to do at first is to just

0:17:30introduce these little moments of hesitation and I think that's a way that you start training up your

0:17:37brain. So, like, obviously you can flip over to the recreation account to watch YouTube

0:17:43at any moment, but it doesn't hurt to put up as many barriers as possible. And I also

0:17:49really like getting it in your mind that it's perfectly fine if you feel like, "I can't

0:17:56do work now, I want to take a break," but you're training yourself to be intentional

0:18:00about it. So you say, "Okay, I'm gonna do that, and I'm clearly deciding because I'm

0:18:06I'm just moving the chair 90 degrees around the desk and I'm like, I've decided to do

0:18:12that. And I'm not lying to myself sitting here at this computer, you know, looking at

0:18:17the work account.

0:18:18Yeah, I'm deciding to log out and log in. Like that, even that is like, yes, if you

0:18:23have the ability to make some physical movement, that is really great. Like that's the key.

0:18:28But if all you can do is change your account, great. Like add some friction in, as you say,

0:18:34so that it's to stop you.

0:18:36But it is just that when you do it,

0:18:38you know you've done it.

0:18:40For me, honestly, using the iPad

0:18:43is one of the big benefits for me.

0:18:46I have different work that I do on my iMac and on my iPad.

0:18:50And so when I'm sitting down on my iPad,

0:18:52it's like, right, I know what mode I'm in right now.

0:18:55I know the types of work that I'm gonna be doing here.

0:18:58When I sit down at my Mac,

0:19:00I know what I'm doing here as well.

0:19:02It's very rare for me to do non-recording

0:19:06or editing on my iMac.

0:19:08I just record and edit here.

0:19:10I don't sit and go through all my email.

0:19:12I don't sit and write my show notes, right?

0:19:14Like I don't deal with social media type stuff.

0:19:16Like all of that is done on my iPad.

0:19:19So I have the distinction there from devices.

0:19:22So I just wanted to throw this in there

0:19:24as like if you have an iPad,

0:19:26a lot of people have an iPad,

0:19:28now might be a really good time

0:19:31to get to know iPadOS.

0:19:32- Yeah, I'll back that.

0:19:36And again, this is where long-time listeners of the show

0:19:39will know, many years ago we were talking

0:19:41about the multi-pad lifestyle.

0:19:43And this is part of the reason why

0:19:45I was such a proponent of this.

0:19:47It's great to have multiple devices,

0:19:50because iOS, just by the mere fact

0:19:54that it works differently than your computer does,

0:19:57is another way that differentiates

0:19:59these spaces from each other. And like, I think that's that's a really good way to have

0:20:06this distinction between two different things like, oh, your brain associates over time.

0:20:12iOS is for email and for administration or however you decide to divide that up and then

0:20:18like, oh, Mac OS on this account that feels this way for this other kind of activity.

0:20:23And if you don't want to work on your iPad, your iPad is a really great tool to do all

0:20:28of the relaxation stuff on.

0:20:30Yeah, yeah, I think iPad for most people leans more towards the chillaxing side of the spectrum

0:20:38which is great to the working side of the spectrum.

0:20:41Those devices are way better, right, like at watching video and like, right, and like

0:20:46social media than Macs are, like that's just the thing about it. If that's all you

0:20:50want to use it for then go for it, but if all you have is like a MacBook Air, like that's

0:20:55awesome too. You just got to set them up and set them up right and observe that and pay

0:21:00attention to that. This is one of those things where it's easy to watch the video and be

0:21:05like, "Well, I don't have the space." We're already in conceptual town because we're in

0:21:08a spaceship, right? So think of it conceptually. So like for me, I don't have enough space

0:21:16in my home to define a fixed exercise point. I could give up my office, but my office is

0:21:24more important for me than the exercise area. What I do have though is a yoga mat. And the

0:21:30yoga mat goes on the ground, the exercise happens on the yoga mat. So when the yoga

0:21:36mat's down, exercise is occurring. It happens in the big green rectangle of this yoga mat.

0:21:43Yeah, you are creating a new space. The yoga mat is like a magic carpet that you're exercising

0:21:49on top of. And that is the space in which this occurs.

0:21:52Honestly, the video has been very helpful to me to be more active.

0:21:56That's the thing I've taken away from it, because really that was the one that I

0:22:00needed the most help with for myself.

0:22:01The rest of it I've mostly worked out, but it has really locked into me.

0:22:05Like you saying about like exercise is non-optional.

0:22:09Whilst I hate to hear that so much, I have taken it on board and I'm exercising

0:22:16more now than I was before.

0:22:18Yeah.

0:22:18That's a message that is part of my own realizing the seriousness of the situation.

0:22:23Exercise is non-optional.

0:22:27It has had the same effect on me of re-contextualizing exercise in my brain

0:22:32and realizing how necessary it is.

0:22:35I don't have my own dedicated space for exercise.

0:22:39I do the same thing where I am borrowing some of my wife's space for exercise.

0:22:43It's always a little bit like, "Oh, are you going to use it?"

0:22:45Like, "No. Okay, great."

0:22:47it's the same thing about like, okay, it doesn't need to be, oh, I have a home gym and this home

0:22:53gym is a physically separate room that has floor-to-ceiling mirrors on it so I can check

0:22:58my form as I'm working out. Like that doesn't need to be what it is. I also think exercise is a great

0:23:05place to talk about the kind of psychological separation that can happen between spaces.

0:23:12So many people will have an exercise playlist.

0:23:17Like, this is the playlist I'm listening to to pump myself up to exercise.

0:23:22And one of the really key things about doing something like that is,

0:23:29if you decide, "I'm gonna have an exercise playlist."

0:23:32This is now becoming part of the, like, the virtual space that is the exercise room.

0:23:37Is this playlist?

0:23:40You have to pick songs that you're perfectly fine with not listening to under other circumstances.

0:23:49So if you have an exercise playlist, don't listen to those songs when you're not exercising.

0:23:55And I do the same thing with my work playlist. Like the songs that I listen to on

0:24:02repeat when I'm working, those songs are now forever removed from just the general rotation

0:24:09of music consumption.

0:24:11And if you do this with the exercise playlist

0:24:14and you do this with a working playlist,

0:24:16I think those are two prime areas

0:24:18where again you can create this sense

0:24:22of now this is a different space.

0:24:25Oh, because this- I'm at the gym

0:24:27and the gym music is playing

0:24:29and the only place that I ever hear the gym music

0:24:31is in my gym.

0:24:33Like, oh, I'm here working.

0:24:34My face is looking at the blank wall of my home

0:24:38But I have the working playlist on and like this is what I do now.

0:24:43This is like different acoustic environment.

0:24:45I do think like a key thing that people sometimes miss with this

0:24:49is it's not just about associating music with a place.

0:24:53It's about removing that association from other places.

0:24:58Like you cannot listen to that music in different circumstances.

0:25:01- Anybody that's ever set one of their favorite pop songs

0:25:04as their alarm knows what you're talking about, right?

0:25:07Yes, that's a great example.

0:25:08Like, "Oh, I have this song. I would love to hear it when I wake up."

0:25:11Yeah, that lasts for a couple of weeks.

0:25:14And then you never want to hear that song again.

0:25:17Yeah, yeah, no, for sure, for sure.

0:25:19I forget, I can't remember the name of it, but I still have like

0:25:22the opening bars of this one Sigur Rós song,

0:25:25which was my alarm when I was going to work as a teacher.

0:25:29I still can't hear the first couple bars of that

0:25:32without having this like, "*GASP*", like I'm drowning feeling.

0:25:35It's terrible.

0:25:36[LAUGHTER]

0:25:37Yeah, but it's a great example of how I think there's like, your brain has these hooks

0:25:43that are just there waiting to be used.

0:25:46And if you just pay a little bit of attention, you can take these things which are like,

0:25:51"Oh, isn't it funny that I feel like I'm drowning every time I hear the song that was my wake-up alarm?"

0:25:56And be like, "Can we turn this to be useful instead of just like an accidental thing that occurs?"

0:26:01occurs. And then you get the satisfactory feeling that you are in control of your own brain.

0:26:08Yeah. Because you've realized you've got one up on it, right?

0:26:12Yeah. Oh, for sure. For sure. Like the number of times that I don't feel like writing at first,

0:26:20you know, now having done this for years, if I'm feeling particularly resistant, there's a couple

0:26:26of the songs that are especially burned into my brain as like this is writing music and if I put

0:26:32those on and just kind of sit in front of the computer and wait it's like well more times than

0:26:39not like typing is gonna start because this is just what this music is for it's for physically

0:26:45moving your hands on on the keyboard. One of mine that I've recently started doing which is kind of

0:26:49follow up from a few episodes ago where I said that I was using like noise cancelling a lot more

0:26:55right, just to just create space in the home. And I was like, oh, I should try pairing this with the

0:27:00app Dark Noise that we spoke about in the State of the Apps episode. They have a sound in there,

0:27:05I think it's called "beach," and it's just the sound of waves crashing. And I've been using it

0:27:10when I am struggling to get some writing done, right? So I will just put that on,

0:27:16and then it's like a simple sound. It's not music, and I can just do it. So I've been really enjoying

0:27:22using that app because also it's got some fun stuff in it like coffee shop noises.

0:27:26Yeah. So it's like I'm outside, right? Uh, so yeah, more than just cause like the white noise,

0:27:33brown noise, those, I hate that. Can't stand it. Yeah. I don't, I don't use any of the pure

0:27:37sounds either. I don't like them. Yeah. I really hate like white noise in a white noise machine.

0:27:43I just want background sounds. So I've been using that a lot for, for trying to help me get

0:27:49through tasks that I've been struggling with.

0:27:51Mm-hmm.

0:27:52It's funny that you mention that because there's also like a time way that you can do these kind of

0:27:58associations that are not physical differences, but they're psychological differences and

0:28:03my wife and I have gotten into the habit on the weekends like,

0:28:07"Oh, weekend often is like sitting around and reading, you know, just relaxing kind of time."

0:28:12And I just happened to do it a few times to put on this foresty woods background kind of noise

0:28:19while we're reading in the afternoon.

0:28:21And it's like, man, three weekends in a row of doing that

0:28:24and now that is the, oh, this is the sound

0:28:26when we're reading sound, you know.

0:28:28And it's just interesting how fast your brain

0:28:30is willing to associate with that.

0:28:33And now it's very clearly like, oh no,

0:28:34this soundscape is just for the weekends.

0:28:37That's what this soundscape is.

0:28:39I know it's Sunday because it sounds like the forest.

0:28:42And like, yeah, it just works really well.

0:28:44- I'm just gonna say, I don't know if we're gonna talk

0:28:46about this later or not, but like Animal Crossing

0:28:48has been real great for me still with like,

0:28:50I know where I am in the week,

0:28:52I know where I am in the day,

0:28:53like having something which helps you with that,

0:28:55it's adding structure in the same way

0:28:58that like I do all of my show prep

0:29:00as my first task of the day.

0:29:03I only do it in the mornings,

0:29:05it will all be done by 12, after 12,

0:29:08I don't do prep for shows anymore.

0:29:10I will do other work because that is the work

0:29:13that takes the most from me.

0:29:15it's the work I have to work on the hardest.

0:29:17So I do it first, I do it because it could take

0:29:21middle longest, I also need the most caffeine, right?

0:29:24Like you said, that is when I would do that.

0:29:26Like that is sitting down, writing out lines,

0:29:28doing research, all that stuff.

0:29:29That is my first task of the day, every day, always,

0:29:33before I start doing anything else.

0:29:35But that is me adding structure in, right?

0:29:38Like all of these things, all of this,

0:29:40the whole thing, right, Spaceship U, structure.

0:29:44You've got to put structure in your life,

0:29:46and you can do it in so many ways.

0:29:48You can do it by tricking your brain with music.

0:29:51You can do it by saying,

0:29:52I will only do these tasks in the morning.

0:29:54Like you only write in the mornings, right?

0:29:57- Yeah.

0:29:58- Right, so you like write morning time is writing time.

0:30:00Or like forest sounds means reading time.

0:30:03It's Sunday, right?

0:30:04- Yeah.

0:30:05- And then it's like, oh that yoga mat,

0:30:07that's where the workouts happen.

0:30:09They don't happen anywhere else.

0:30:10That soft thing in the corner,

0:30:11that's where sleeping happens.

0:30:13Nothing else happens there, right?

0:30:14Like this side of the desk, this is where work is.

0:30:17This side of the desk, I got the window, I can relax.

0:30:20Finding structure is so important

0:30:25and it's always been important for working at home

0:30:27but it's even more important when home is all there is.

0:30:31- There are a bunch of meta skills in life

0:30:34that are really key in accomplishing

0:30:38whatever it is you wanna do.

0:30:40One of those incredibly important meta skills

0:30:42It's just like time management, being aware of how you're spending your time.

0:30:46And one of those other skills is this self structure and it can express itself in a lot

0:30:52of ways.

0:30:53And I think part of the lockdown situation is that many people are like forced to become

0:31:03aware in a very visceral way how much work the structure of the external world was doing

0:31:12in getting them to do what they need to do when that's been removed. And so it's like,

0:31:18you can just suddenly realize like, oh God, I have to create some structure here. Otherwise,

0:31:24I'm just gonna drift forever. One of the ones I'll mention, which it doesn't work great for me now,

0:31:30but I did use to do it in the beginning is also just clothing. So, you know, you have like

0:31:37shirts that you would wear when you're working or when you're not working. Like some people really

0:31:42like to do this. If like they'll have a work shirt and I did do this in the beginning. I eventually

0:31:48found like I didn't really need to after a while but for some people this is another way to do this

0:31:54of like I have put on the work shirt or one of my comments that was "Oh that's genius" was someone

0:32:00said they have a work necklace and so they're like when I put this necklace on like this is work time

0:32:05and then I take the necklace off and it is not work time. I thought like oh that's that's another

0:32:09great kind of token to do this but even as I say like oh I don't really use the clothing one

0:32:15anymore there is a little way in which again it kind of snuck into my life now which is have a

0:32:21pair of slippers that I've made this decision about like only wearing the slippers on the

0:32:26weekend and so again it it weirdly gives the weekend a particular feeling of like oh it's

0:32:31obviously sunday because i'm wearing the slippers and there's the forest sound like how sunday does

0:32:37this feel maximum sunday that's how it feels various levels of pajamas

0:32:42yeah you have your casual pajamas and you have your formal pajamas and you know what that's not

0:32:50even a joke like that's perfectly fine if you have casual and formal pajamas like yeah your brain will

0:32:54just start latching onto it.

0:32:56Maybe it's just t-shirts and basketball shorts in the week and silk on the weekends.

0:33:00You do you, right?

0:33:01Whatever makes you comfortable.

0:33:03I want to go back to some other practical things.

0:33:07I know I've seen this one a lot.

0:33:09I have children.

0:33:10How can I follow any of this?

0:33:13Children are chaos balls in your house.

0:33:16Kids make it harder and there's nothing that people with children like more than hearing

0:33:21advice from someone who doesn't have children. So I'm not really gonna have a lot of specific

0:33:28tips to say here except that you can't tell me that even with children it wouldn't be

0:33:34a good idea to have a dedicated workspace in your house.

0:33:38Because I assume people that have children that have to work from home now are still

0:33:44expected to work, right? Yeah.

0:33:46I know it's significantly more difficult

0:33:49because you also have to be a teacher, I guess,

0:33:52in a lot of instances, but I'm assuming at the same time

0:33:57that your work is expecting you to work.

0:33:59So maybe you're working at weird hours,

0:34:02and if that's the case, maybe you need more of this stuff

0:34:06of like putting on this T-shirt means that it's work time

0:34:10or this music because you will be working at times

0:34:13that you're not used to normally working at.

0:34:15because you haven't been able to work at all

0:34:18when the children are awake, right?

0:34:20So you've got to work when they're asleep.

0:34:22So maybe you need more structure that way.

0:34:24But like it is, this stuff is more difficult

0:34:28than for some or the other.

0:34:30But that's why like what I wanted to explore

0:34:32is that you don't have to lift this wholesale, right?

0:34:36Like there is a type of person that does need to do

0:34:39literally everything that you've told them

0:34:41in the exact order that you've told them.

0:34:44but not everybody does and not everybody can,

0:34:47but there are definitely parts of it

0:34:49that anybody can use even a little bit.

0:34:53- Yeah, yeah, and like having a different space for work,

0:34:56especially when those children eating

0:35:00perhaps depends on the work,

0:35:01like you might wanna do that.

0:35:04You might wanna make sure that you're able to get done

0:35:06what needs to be done.

0:35:07But yeah, kids make it harder for sure.

0:35:10Flatmates make it harder for sure.

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0:38:07Can we talk about Creation Station?

0:38:09Okay.

0:38:10Creation Station.

0:38:11I know from the way you say it, you're saying it, Myke.

0:38:15Like you're getting right at the heart of something with this video for me.

0:38:20Didn't like that.

0:38:21I didn't like Creation Station.

0:38:22Okay.

0:38:23Why didn't you like Creation Station?

0:38:24I think it was unnecessarily abstract as a phrase to use.

0:38:29Like it could have just been called workstation.

0:38:32'Cause like I've noticed throughout this entire episode,

0:38:34you've been referring to it as work.

0:38:36- Yeah, 'cause it is work.

0:38:37- Yeah. - It's totally work.

0:38:38- So why did you call it creation station?

0:38:40So this being the idea of like you have your place

0:38:45where you're sleeping, you have your place

0:38:47where you're exercising, your place where you're relaxing,

0:38:50and then the place where you're doing the other stuff,

0:38:52which you called Creation Station.

0:38:54- Creation Station. (laughs)

0:38:56- Which sounds really lovely, right?

0:38:58It rolls off the tongue,

0:39:00but I think doesn't actually sum up, in my mind,

0:39:04what is being done here.

0:39:05- Yeah, no, it's very, you know,

0:39:07conjunction, junction, what's your function?

0:39:08I get it.

0:39:10For the behind-the-scenes part of it,

0:39:11this is where, for the video,

0:39:14mostly, once we get past the first minute,

0:39:18and if you ignore the last 10 seconds,

0:39:21the pandemic framing is basically completely absent.

0:39:24It's like, "Pandemic?

0:39:26Oh, I never heard of it.

0:39:27This is just a great way to live."

0:39:29That's sort of what the "Spaceship U" video is like

0:39:31in the middle part of it.

0:39:33But this is the one place where

0:39:37if I was making a "Spaceship U" version too

0:39:41that didn't have the pandemic background,

0:39:43I'd be much more likely to call it the workstation.

0:39:46- Right.

0:39:47- But the reason I called it the creation station

0:39:49is because I did want to emphasize the point that this is not just about work. Because if you say

0:40:02the word work, most people are going to associate that with a job. And then like, I know that

0:40:10there's going to be a lot of people who are watching this that are either students or who

0:40:14are unemployed, or employed, but unable to do their jobs, right? Like,

0:40:19the furloughing, right?

0:40:20Yeah, people who are on furlough.

0:40:22And so I'm being a little facetious, like I know why you didn't call it that.

0:40:26Yeah, but it's like, but you're also hitting on the one, you know, whenever you make something,

0:40:30there's this funny difference between the audience and the creator where the audience watches a thing

0:40:37and sort of comes always to the conclusion that the creator was completely confident in every

0:40:46single part of this in every single sentence, right? And it's like, no, no, the person who

0:40:52created it can be uncertain with some parts of it as well. And this is one of those moments

0:40:57where I'm like, no, it's totally legit. Like, why didn't you call it the workstation? It's

0:41:01a thing I went back and forth with a lot. But because of the context in which the video

0:41:07is being made, I did want to go broader, even if I agree that it's probably too broad. But

0:41:15But I just figured there's like a way higher proportion of people who are watching this

0:41:19video at this time are not going to have a clear job that they can perform.

0:41:27So like I wanted to have it be broader here.

0:41:31And then this is also the part where whenever I look at the final videos I can see all of

0:41:36these little pieces that are left over from different versions of the script.

0:41:41And this is one of these places where I originally wanted to have a much broader discussion about

0:41:47what does creation mean?

0:41:50And very quickly realized, like, don't get into this, man, right?

0:41:53Like, it's too much.

0:41:55It's too much of a diversion.

0:41:56You're gonna have to make a decision that's not completely comfortable either way.

0:42:00Like you don't want to call it the workstation.

0:42:03Creation Station is the next best name, but including too much of a description about

0:42:07what exactly you mean by this is too much.

0:42:10So it's got to go and you're kind of left with this in between place.

0:42:13Do you want to talk about that here though?

0:42:15I mean, we have the time, right?

0:42:16Like that's the beauty of the show is right.

0:42:18Like, yeah, let's get into this part of it.

0:42:21So I mean, let's talk about what humans do for each other, Myke, which is hopefully create

0:42:28things that they themselves or other people value.

0:42:34And that that's sort of the idea of the creation station here is what you want to kind of have

0:42:42is like a like a compass point that directs you to like, what activities should I do?

0:42:48And I think particularly like, when you're younger, it can often seem like, what should

0:42:57I do?

0:42:58I don't I don't know what I should do.

0:42:59Everything is boring and awful, right?

0:43:02And a useful compass point is just this idea of, hey, the world's a really big place.

0:43:09Not everybody can be an expert in everything.

0:43:13And the way that the modern world works is people learn skills.

0:43:19And then you feel like we all trade these skills with each other.

0:43:23And so you want to be looking at things that you can learn to do, which are valuable to

0:43:30other people.

0:43:31This is what we generally call work in the world.

0:43:34It's like, you have a skill that another person doesn't have, and the two of you trade with

0:43:40each other.

0:43:41And so at Creation Station, one of the things you can think of if like you're sort of drifting

0:43:47is just kind of thinking about, even in the vaguest possible ways, what things pique your

0:43:54interest just a little bit that might also be useful to other people.

0:44:00And like, that's a good thing to investigate as,

0:44:04"Let me explore this."

0:44:06You know, "Oh, I like spreadsheets.

0:44:08Let me learn about pivot tables."

0:44:11You know, or "Cooking catches my interest.

0:44:13Like, let me explore this as a skill."

0:44:16And it's a place to get started with that stuff.

0:44:20If that's not necessarily obvious to you,

0:44:23you can also start out with like,

0:44:25humans can create things that they themselves value.

0:44:29So like, what do you do that you enjoy?

0:44:33Right, like, you're tending your garden.

0:44:35And no one else in the whole world sees the garden but you,

0:44:38but it makes you happy.

0:44:40Like, that is creating a kind of value in the world,

0:44:43even if it's just a value for yourself.

0:44:46So that's why I wanted to go a little bit broad with Creation Station,

0:44:49because this idea of value,

0:44:52it is generally applicable, but it's much more applicable in this time,

0:44:57because like you have way more leeway here about what it is that you want to do.

0:45:02There's also there's also a part of it which again, it wouldn't really fit in the video,

0:45:06but I think it's also useful.

0:45:08So for people who are working remotely at jobs, maybe they don't love, it can be sometimes

0:45:16helpful to understand that this is still part of like the creation of value.

0:45:24of you don't love this job, you are still creating something, you know, whether it's

0:45:31like organized emails, right, or replies in a knowledge base, right, or whatever it is

0:45:40that is of value to your employer.

0:45:42And like that's the reason that they pay you because the thing that you're doing is creating

0:45:46value to them.

0:45:48And I just think from reading comments online, a common situation can be that sometimes people

0:45:54will feel like a job that they don't like can seem extra sort of why in a time like

0:46:03this when they're home on their own.

0:46:07And so I just think it's useful to point that out.

0:46:10Like this is part of creation.

0:46:13Like this is part of the tapestry of the world.

0:46:16There is a really strong "we're all in this together" vibe at the moment. Everyone

0:46:23is in the same boat here, right? Around the world. We're all in this. So anything that

0:46:31you are doing, no matter what it is, is adding some value back into society at the moment.

0:46:40If you are tech support for an energy company, you're helping other people who have problems

0:46:48with their energy right now, which means a lot more to people than it typically would

0:46:53have otherwise.

0:46:55So not necessarily we all need to start putting flowers in our hair and value our jobs, but

0:47:03it's at least a more helpful framing device as to why you do what you do even if you don't

0:47:08like it.

0:47:09a little paragraph that got cut where it was something like if you're able to work digitally

0:47:14on the spaceship no matter what you're doing it's another hand on the like on the wheel like

0:47:19keeping things turning right like something along those lines of like we gotta keep this wheel of

0:47:26the economy needs to spin and everyone who can do anything no matter what it is is an additional

0:47:34turning force on this wheel and and like that is that is part of this concept of like the

0:47:39creation of something that is valued like an additional positive force on something

0:47:45that needs to keep moving.

0:47:47Because if you're a if you're doing something right now it means something to someone.

0:47:51Yeah.

0:47:52Otherwise it wouldn't be happening.

0:47:53Yeah.

0:47:54And if you're not then you are in a interesting position of being able to find something else

0:48:02of interest to do.

0:48:04A hobby that you've always wanted to undertake.

0:48:07Like you have the world given excuse right now to do it.

0:48:13That is the gift that you have, right?

0:48:17You may have a bit more time in your life to learn to cook, to read that book, to write a book, right?

0:48:26Whatever. This is a time in which you can do it, right?

0:48:30And I know that's why Creation Station is named Creation Station.

0:48:33But I think the word creation now is too heavily tied into being a content creator for a lot of

0:48:39people. Yeah, I can see that.

0:48:41And I think that's where maybe a lot of people get stuck up, because creation now seems like

0:48:47a barrier, like it's this big thing that you have to do.

0:48:50That's why the real name of the station is, open parentheses, the, close parentheses, creation,

0:48:59open parentheses, of value, close parentheses, station.

0:49:03Right? Like, that's the name of the station.

0:49:05- Right.

0:49:06- It's very awkward though.

0:49:07Perhaps like the closest second call that I came to was like crafting station?

0:49:16- That's worse.

0:49:17- Yeah, that's why I didn't pick it.

0:49:18- Yeah, yeah, that's worse.

0:49:19This is Minecraft.

0:49:21- Yeah, yeah, crafting is gonna make people think of Animal Crossing.

0:49:25Is this where I'm supposed to play Animal Crossing?

0:49:27like no this is not where you're supposed to play Animal Crossing.

0:49:30Well you know I guess it depends if you're a streamer.

0:49:32Well no but see that's that's like this is actually I think an an interesting point here

0:49:38is when you talk about like things you value there is a little bit of of like bleed over into

0:49:45like the recreation part like what is the what is the difference between the two of these

0:49:50and so part of part of why I like Creation Station and talking about like making things of value is

0:49:57because like if you're just watching a movie right you're sitting there and you're watching a movie

0:50:01you can enjoy that that is recreation but if you are not doing anything with having watched that

0:50:09movie you are not able to create something that any other human would value right but if you like

0:50:16talk about that movie in an entertaining way on a podcast like look now you have created

0:50:21entertainment then it's the same thing with video games like there's a huge difference between

0:50:26I am playing a video game on my own and I am enjoying it.

0:50:30It's like, great! That is recreation, which we all need.

0:50:33But it is not creating anything that another human can conceivably value

0:50:39unless you switch it into this, "Oh, I'm broadcasting it."

0:50:42Right? And I'm hopefully talking about it in a way that people find interesting.

0:50:46So that's why I think Creation Station, like when you're focusing on learning skills,

0:50:52what I was trying to say before with this idea of the compass is like,

0:50:55Like, there should be some potential outward direction of these things.

0:51:02It doesn't even need to be extremely obvious, but that just like some sort of outward projection

0:51:09that another person could conceivably value some version of this in the future.

0:51:15And that's what distinguishes some activities from recreation, which is much more just internal

0:51:22than the working station, which is more externally directed.

0:51:26it.

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0:52:32Alright, now, no one's listening anymore, it's just me and you.

0:52:36Oh, okay.

0:52:37Just the two of us.

0:52:38Can I stop the recording?

0:52:39No.

0:52:40Oh, okay.

0:52:41Just in case we want to check this back later on.

0:52:43Oh, okay.

0:52:44Just for funsies.

0:52:45But no one's here anymore, it's just me and you.

0:52:47Okay, so we're chilling out.

0:52:48We're just hanging out.

0:52:49Okay, cool.

0:52:50Yeah, you can move your desk, do whatever nonsense it is you like to do.

0:52:51Great, thank you.

0:52:52I'll touch the microphone.

0:52:53Yeah, thanks.

0:52:54Yeah, yeah, this is just me and you time.

0:52:56I'll eat my yogurt.

0:52:57So we've explained, I think, the idea behind all of this, right?

0:53:00you know because it's just me and you here.

0:53:02Yeah, it's like why are you recapping what just happened before the ad break? I don't

0:53:06know.

0:53:07You know how I talk by now, this is what I do. How are you really doing with all of this?

0:53:11How are you like honestly faring with this separation?

0:53:15Okay, so I have a really hard time talking about this, which is why I'm glad it's just

0:53:21the two of us.

0:53:22Just with, it doesn't matter because it's just me and you now, so it's fine.

0:53:26Right, I mean the fact that you keep emphasizing it makes me a little bit suspicious.

0:53:29Again, this is how I always talk.

0:53:31I mean, in fairness, you do always talk a little bit, you know, like you're broadcasting

0:53:37because that's just your cadence now.

0:53:39Well, this, and also, like, especially when we're having these conversations,

0:53:43because I'm in this area.

0:53:47Right.

0:53:48I've got the microphone in front of me, the headphones on,

0:53:50and I'm looking at the levels moving on the USB interface.

0:53:54Yeah, that's true.

0:53:55You do have a very difficult time separating out your socializing space from your working space.

0:54:02Like you're in a bad place there.

0:54:04The Zoom call socializing thing is like, it doesn't work so well for me right now because I only like to use my proper microphone.

0:54:11Yeah.

0:54:12It's my, it's a thought of my own doing really.

0:54:15Yeah, no, it totally is.

0:54:16It's actually, normally I would do any FaceTime calls that I would do on my podcasting equipment as well.

0:54:23just like, so it sounds better for the other person and it's all ready to go.

0:54:26But I realized very quickly into the lockdown when catching up with family and

0:54:31friends, it was like, I can't do this.

0:54:33I can't do this in this room because I'm like,

0:54:36I'm being way more strict about these barriers.

0:54:39And I genuinely felt like it was kind of messing with my brain of,

0:54:43Oh, I'm taking my office super seriously,

0:54:47like more seriously than I ever have in my entire life.

0:54:51It's like a sanctified environment.

0:54:53But it's also where I could like kick back and put my feet up on the table

0:54:57and just chit chat with a friend.

0:54:59So like these two things don't line up.

0:55:01I think I've only really been sitting at the iMac for the zoom calls where there

0:55:05is also some element of professional to them.

0:55:08So like I might be hanging out with a friend, but we're also like colleagues.

0:55:13Right.

0:55:13Right.

0:55:14But I have been doing more like there's no pretense of work here on the sofa in

0:55:20the living room, like for family and friends.

0:55:22You've seen this.

0:55:23We did this.

0:55:23Yeah, yeah, and that's that's exactly what I made a decision really early on was oh no, wait a minute

0:55:31I'm changing this. I'm doing all of my FaceTime calls on the iPad on the couch. Like I'm just I'm redefining this

0:55:37I'm taking it out of this area. Like if I'm if I'm doing a podcast I'll do it on the equipment

0:55:43And if I'm not doing a podcast, I'm gonna do it on the iPad on my couch. But again, like we're just

0:55:49Socializing between the two of us and staying on the equipment and recording for convenience factors. Yeah. Well, this is after the show

0:55:56Yeah, we're already here. Yeah. Yeah, but so the so the thing that's that I have a hard time

0:56:00talking about and that is

0:56:03extraordinarily poorly received by some people is that

0:56:09I'm doing great

0:56:12like

0:56:13Okay, it's the honest truth. That's difficult to talk about is

0:56:18My theme, like, Year of Clarity, couldn't more perfectly be aligned for this sort of situation.

0:56:26Yeah, in that regard you really lucked out with a theme this year, didn't you?

0:56:30Yeah, you drew the short stick on that one.

0:56:32Oh boy, did I!

0:56:34But for me, it's it has been perfect and

0:56:37lined up with a bunch of changes that I wanted to make in life anyway, and so I feel like I've taken

0:56:47you know, for a variety of reasons this situation extremely seriously and

0:56:51that also means like that's part of the reason the whole video came out is because it's like, okay

0:56:57I need to set up these spaces. I need to treat exercise like it's mandatory medicine

0:57:03There's just no question about this at all. I'm being very strict about like if I'm in my office, I'm working and

0:57:09Yeah, it's it's I've been trying to think about how to articulate it, but the truth is

0:57:16is right now in this little spaceship.

0:57:20I just feel like I'm doing really well.

0:57:23And I also have a lot of markers that are objective markers

0:57:26that are tracking with that.

0:57:28Without a doubt, I'm in the best physical shape of my life.

0:57:31And I've got several really interesting,

0:57:35really engaging video projects

0:57:37that are in the works in parallel.

0:57:40And my wife and I have been spending

0:57:43great quality time together.

0:57:45The only place that's a real downside

0:57:49is that we don't have any access to private outdoor space.

0:57:54And because of my wife's health,

0:57:57we're still being very cautious about going outside.

0:58:01And so that is the only thing

0:58:03if I could make something be different

0:58:06to improve the situation.

0:58:08We should have escaped to the countryside years ago

0:58:11so that we could go outside for walks.

0:58:13So, you know, my wife and I have been inside without leaving the house since the start of this.

0:58:22With only for me a couple of rare exceptions for necessary errands and things.

0:58:27So that's the only part where I feel like if I could change something I would change that.

0:58:32Otherwise, I don't know, like, I feel really great and there's something psychologically very different about

0:58:38a calendar that literally has no items scheduled in the future at all

0:58:44versus a calendar where, oh, there's a conference two months from now. Like, it creates a real

0:58:51feeling of space and freedom and is quite a different way to have spent my time over the

0:58:57last couple of months than the original plan. But yeah, it like, that's a difficult thing to

0:59:05talk about because it makes some people really upset if you say like, "Oh, this lockdown

0:59:13has been great for me personally. I mean, yes, it's a global economic and personal disaster,

0:59:18and you know, it may very well be a personal disaster for me at some point in the future,

0:59:24but like right now, this is fantastic." So yeah, it's just a weird situation to

0:59:31be in but that's the truth of it is I feel like it's it's been an incredibly clarifying and

0:59:38focusing time for me and this and this is also where after saying all that it always makes me

0:59:45dread then being like how are you doing before before we get to that there's like something I

0:59:52think I've been thinking about recently like you mentioned about like escaping to the country

0:59:57Do you think you would be more likely to move out of London now than before?

1:00:01Yeah, yeah for sure.

1:00:03I'm thinking it now, like I want a house next, not an apartment.

1:00:07Like this has always been something I wanted anyway, right?

1:00:10I want to be able to move into a house.

1:00:12And so we haven't made any kind of moves on that.

1:00:17We would always have been at least a year or two before we would even have ever thought

1:00:21about moving anyway.

1:00:23But I am now more like thinking a garden would be nice right now.

1:00:28And I'm also now thinking right now in my life my proximity to London is not really that helpful.

1:00:37Right? Like I could be as far away from the center again and definitely know I would still have

1:00:45access to all the modern conveniences. Like there are lots of towns in England which would provide

1:00:52me what I want mostly for the time that I'm in right now. It would add frustrations for

1:00:59travel, but maybe I don't do as much of that in the future anyway. So I am personally thinking

1:01:06maybe we move further out now than we were expecting before, because priorities might

1:01:12start to change. And it's just not something that I'd really considered. I was always like,

1:01:16"We will stay in an apartment until we can afford a home in and around the area of London

1:01:22we were already in.

1:01:23Right, yes, yes, I see what you mean.

1:01:25But now it might be like, "Eh, no, maybe we just move like another 30 minutes further

1:01:30out and buy a home."

1:01:32Yeah.

1:01:33Right?

1:01:34Rather than an apartment.

1:01:35One of the things that's really been on my mind is that we don't have a car.

1:01:39I've never cared about that before.

1:01:42It's never mattered.

1:01:43I'm so f***ing annoyed that I didn't learn to drive.

1:01:46Because I've been talking about it for years, right?

1:01:49and just was like, "Ah, whatever, like, the studio will make me get the car, right?"

1:01:55Yeah.

1:01:56If I would have learned to drive before now, my life would have been so much easier.

1:02:00Yes, yeah, of course.

1:02:02So annoying.

1:02:03Yeah, not having a car in a situation where, I mean, especially a month ago, where it's

1:02:10more like, "So is it the apocalypse?"

1:02:13Right, like you want a car, you want options, and this is one time where I'm really aware

1:02:19of like, "Ooh, we don't have options. We're in this apartment and, you know, my

1:02:25wife hasn't left the front door of our apartment and I haven't gone farther than the garbage

1:02:31cans on the street, you know, in two months." And I'm very aware of that because my parents

1:02:37are quarantining, but they also have a car so they can just go for nice country drives,

1:02:42right? And like, the car is a mobile part of the bubble.

1:02:45You can drive. Why don't you just get a car?

1:02:47I can't drive in the UK because I've lived here too long.

1:02:50Right? I need to go through the whole...

1:02:51Oh, you don't have a driving license?

1:02:52Yeah, I don't have the driver's license.

1:02:54And you can't do the swap because it's been too long?

1:02:56Yeah, if you're going to be a resident, you have to go through the driver's license process.

1:03:01If you're a tourist, you can do the like, "Oh, I can drive in the UK while I'm a tourist."

1:03:06But if you live here, you can't just swap it over.

1:03:09You have to actually go through the schools.

1:03:12Is that because you're American?

1:03:14I don't know if it's because you're an American, but I'm pretty sure it's just a general rule.

1:03:17That's so annoying, man.

1:03:20Because like you can have a... I'm sure someone can just deliver a car, right?

1:03:23Like I don't know if you have to go to a showroom. I don't think you do.

1:03:27Yeah.

1:03:27Who cares about the rules, Grey? Just drive around.

1:03:30Like what are they gonna...

1:03:32Just go for it, man. There's no rules.

1:03:34What's the worst that could happen?

1:03:35Yeah.

1:03:35Yeah, there's no rules in this new world.

1:03:38But yeah, so I don't know.

1:03:39It's just something that's been on my mind.

1:03:41And the lack of outdoor space, like I said, is the only thing that I would change.

1:03:46So it's been on my mind.

1:03:48But I also think the reason that you're thinking the same thing is

1:03:52this is the natural life cycle of urban areas and people's careers.

1:03:59Right, and so...

1:04:02The younger you are, the more advantage there is to moving to the biggest city you possibly can

1:04:09at the start of your career.

1:04:11Even if I know nothing about a human being, that is generically good advice.

1:04:16You know.

1:04:17Did you just graduate and you've decided that it's time to look for work?

1:04:22Like, go to the biggest city that you reasonably can,

1:04:27and it magnifies your potential in a whole bunch of different ways.

1:04:31But then, as one's career goes on,

1:04:35the advantage of being in that urban core,

1:04:39There's like a decreasing marginal value of that.

1:04:42And so I think this is why like you just generally have this cycle of cities suck in younger

1:04:48people and then as people progress in their career they've extracted most of the advantages

1:04:55they're going to have for an urban core and start to value different kinds of things.

1:05:00Like I want more space in my house and like I'm willing to trade that against other different

1:05:04resources.

1:05:05So I think for you and me, we're both at that point and maybe this moment has just sharpened

1:05:13that thinking a little bit.

1:05:15It's like having lived in London has been tremendously advantageous to my teaching career

1:05:22and my YouTube career in innumerable ways.

1:05:26But is that still the case now?

1:05:29Like yes it is still valuable, but not as valuable and as important and so I find myself

1:05:37more willing to think about trading it off against other things that I would want.

1:05:42So yeah I don't know it's just something that's been on my mind.

1:05:45But how are you doing?

1:05:46I would say that like I'm not doing as well as you.

1:05:51I'm not doing badly, but like I'm in the middle but with various fluctuations on

1:05:59that scale depending on the area that you're looking at.

1:06:02What do you mean by that?

1:06:03Well so like okay let's talk about exercise right?

1:06:06Mm-hmm.

1:06:07I'm doing more of it but I still f***ing hate it and everything I'm doing just hurts me.

1:06:16Like I just, I don't know what it is about me, Gray,

1:06:20but like, I'm not getting injured,

1:06:23but just like, it doesn't matter what it is,

1:06:25but my body just hates it.

1:06:27- Yeah, what are you doing?

1:06:28- Well, a mixture of either yoga or body weight exercises.

1:06:33But like, if I do yoga, I hope for the rest of the day,

1:06:37like, gee, it's just like, whatever.

1:06:40This is the thing, I'm gonna see some,

1:06:41I'm gonna go see a specialist

1:06:43after all this is taken care of,

1:06:44'cause this has always been a problem in my life.

1:06:48And I'm not looking for a diagnosis on the podcast,

1:06:51but there are various conditions

1:06:54that can be conducive to this,

1:06:55just joints and stuff like that, right?

1:06:57Maybe I'm just not built for this, but whatever.

1:07:00Anyway, so exercise is like, I'm doing it, but I hate it.

1:07:03And I don't feel any benefit from it.

1:07:07But that's just a part of my life

1:07:10that's always been there anyway, but I'm still doing it.

1:07:12For some elements to me, there isn't that much of a change.

1:07:15I relax about as much as I did before,

1:07:18sometimes more, sometimes less, but it's dictated by my week

1:07:21because the amount of structured events that I'm doing

1:07:24is still the same because I worked from home before,

1:07:27I have worked from home for nearly six years,

1:07:30and my life has this structure to it which hasn't changed.

1:07:33- Yeah, I was gonna say, your podcast recording schedule

1:07:35hasn't significantly changed. - No.

1:07:38- Has it? No. - No, it hasn't at all.

1:07:40I'm having more meetings than I've ever had before,

1:07:44like appointments, like calls, whatever.

1:07:47So I have more in my diary.

1:07:49Plus, I am working harder right now

1:07:53than I have worked in years,

1:07:55because producing content

1:07:57and trying to keep everything together

1:08:00is taking more work than it usually does,

1:08:02because things are different right now.

1:08:05- You have the problem that all content trends

1:08:10in one direction right now.

1:08:12There's like a, there's a little bit of Corona flavor

1:08:15in every topic, right?

1:08:17- Yep, yep, yep, yep.

1:08:19And so if you want to go down those routes, you can,

1:08:23and that's one element of hard work,

1:08:26or you can try and avoid it, and that's also hard work,

1:08:31right, so like doing that, and then also just running,

1:08:34running any business of any size,

1:08:39just inherently more difficult right now.

1:08:42- Yeah, I would say that's a trend I definitely notice

1:08:46among my friends is people who run businesses

1:08:50are having significantly more difficult time

1:08:53than people who don't.

1:08:54- And it's not even if anything's going wrong,

1:08:57the fear of is there.

1:08:59Everything's fine now, but what if it isn't in a month?

1:09:02Right?

1:09:03And it's just a lot to carry around with you,

1:09:05especially when unlike most instances,

1:09:08some of this stuff can be completely unrelated

1:09:11to your own performance.

1:09:12It's just a lot to carry around, right?

1:09:15Like that just makes things difficult.

1:09:17We've been talking about this a little bit

1:09:19and we'll have more to share in the future,

1:09:21like Relay FM, my company,

1:09:23like we're taking this as a time

1:09:26to change a bit about who we are

1:09:30and where our focus as a company is.

1:09:33That takes a lot of work to do, right?

1:09:35Like if you have decided that you want to

1:09:38adapt your business model to something a bit different.

1:09:41Like, that's hard work, right?

1:09:44So, I've got a lot going on,

1:09:48which is adding a lot to everything, right?

1:09:51Like, I'm not sleeping as well right now

1:09:55because my brain doesn't stop working.

1:09:58I don't really see it as a downside

1:10:00because I have a lot of really great ideas

1:10:03when I can't sleep at 2.30.

1:10:04Like, my brain clarifies on things.

1:10:07(laughing)

1:10:08You know, I'm not trying to stay awake,

1:10:10but like I'm just laying there,

1:10:11and my brain's just going and going and going,

1:10:14and then bang, there it is, I did it.

1:10:16This is not normal for a lot of people.

1:10:18A lot of people will tell you that this is a terrible time

1:10:20to have ideas, but for me, it works.

1:10:24You know, I hear a lot of people say

1:10:26that they're struggling with a problem,

1:10:28and they wake up the next morning, and they've solved it.

1:10:31That doesn't happen to me.

1:10:32What happens to me is before I fall asleep, it's solved.

1:10:35Right, so like when I'm trying to get my brain to shut down,

1:10:39that's sometimes where things pop out.

1:10:42Like that's just the way that I am.

1:10:44That's where I've been for years.

1:10:45- That sounds terrible, but I'm glad it works for you.

1:10:48- Look, I sometimes wish I could go to sleep,

1:10:50but if I can't sleep, at least if I get some benefit

1:10:54out of that, I'm happy, right?

1:10:56I prefer this to just laying there and worrying.

1:10:59It's not worry, it's like I'm coming up with ideas

1:11:03that are happening to me then.

1:11:05So yeah, it's like every day is a different feeling.

1:11:09But on the whole, I'm just really busy right now.

1:11:16And so that's tiring.

1:11:17But I will say, I'm a man who loves travel, right?

1:11:20I love to travel, I get to spend time

1:11:25with people that I care about, I get to go to places,

1:11:28I get to go to restaurants, which I enjoy

1:11:30and experience new things.

1:11:33But in a similar vein to you, the amount of quality time

1:11:37that me and my wife Adina are getting to spend together

1:11:39right now is unlike what we have had over the last few years.

1:11:44And I am enjoying that, that we are getting to spend

1:11:49this time together.

1:11:51If I can't do that one thing, this is a really great thing

1:11:54to replace it.

1:11:55'Cause I, oh boy, I am missing traveling.

1:11:59I know that it causes so much stress in our lives, right?

1:12:04Like to go to America and spend a week and come back

1:12:08and you've lost three weeks, right?

1:12:10Like it's very disruptive, but I love it, right?

1:12:15And so I'm missing that.

1:12:17That is the main thing that I'm missing in my life right now

1:12:21is getting able to do that stuff.

1:12:23Everything else I can handle a lot better,

1:12:25but I am missing that.

1:12:28I'll sympathize with you on the travel in perhaps the weirdest and most unsympathetic way.

1:12:34I do find myself thinking sometimes, "Oh, I'll be glad to travel again so that I can do a

1:12:40great cation where I can go somewhere and just be completely alone and lock myself in a hotel room

1:12:46for a week." No, but that's nice though. Like, one of the things that I would like about traveling

1:12:50sometimes is I had time to just decompress. It became such a part of my life over the

1:12:58last five years. It has been the biggest thing that I have noticed.

1:13:02Yeah, your travel really has ramped up a lot since we first got to know each other. I feel

1:13:07like you hardly did any travel at the beginning. It got to the point where I was like in America

1:13:12basically every four to five weeks. Yeah, which is madness, is absolute madness.

1:13:17have been a big shift and I know as time goes on I'm only gonna feel it more

1:13:23that I've not been anywhere like you know I like to travel I'm like so happy

1:13:28that we got in one great trip in January right where we went to LA we had a

1:13:35wonderful time and we did a bunch of really fun things and I'm very happy we

1:13:41got that trip it was like a trip of a lifetime for me it's something like I

1:13:44I ticked off a bunch of boxes of things

1:13:46I'd always wanted to do, and then that was it.

1:13:48- Can I make an exercise suggestion for you, Myke?

1:13:50- Yes.

1:13:51- I know you won't like it, right?

1:13:53I know you won't like it.

1:13:54I'm gonna very strongly suggest

1:13:59you get a set of adjustable dumbbells

1:14:02so that you can do some actual weight training.

1:14:06- Okay, okay.

1:14:08- Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you'll like it.

1:14:11I'm not saying that it won't hurt, like it'll, you know, you'll feel the burn.

1:14:17But this is for anyone who's trying to exercise at home.

1:14:23This is a place to start.

1:14:26Even if, or especially if you think like, oh, lifting weights, it's not for me.

1:14:34I'm just going to, I'm going to very strongly suggest it because it's,

1:14:40It's an area where you can see relatively quick progress.

1:14:45And in many ways you can start off on a much easier level

1:14:51than trying to do some of the body weight exercises.

1:14:55Like body weight exercises are totally fine

1:14:59when you don't have other equipment.

1:15:01But especially if like your fitness level

1:15:05is not particularly high,

1:15:07starting with weights I think is actually better

1:15:10because you can do motions with like,

1:15:12this is a two and a half pound weight

1:15:14and I'm just lifting it and it feels like nothing

1:15:16and you just slowly increase that over time.

1:15:19So I'm gonna strongly suggest that you give it a try

1:15:22and put it in your rotation.

1:15:23'Cause I feel like for me it is the most sanity keeping

1:15:28part of the physical routine.

1:15:30And like I just happen to as the very end

1:15:34of the year of order, we never got around to it,

1:15:36I had it as like this follow up note for weeks and weeks.

1:15:39But the very end of the year of order was I did get just like a very small set of dumbbells for the home

1:15:45just so that I could like do a little bit of exercise if I didn't have time to go to the gym.

1:15:51Like that by far and away is one of the best purchases and one of the most helpful

1:15:56quarantine items that I have.

1:15:59You may be resistant to it but I would give it a try.

1:16:01It seems difficult to find adjustable dumbbells right now.

1:16:06Look, here's the thing.

1:16:07This is a long term situation here.

1:16:09I would put in some orders and see what arrives.

1:16:12Do you have any recommendations you can send me or shall I just find something?

1:16:17I do have a recommendation.

1:16:19Let me just get the name.

1:16:20Can you feel how much I hate this?

1:16:21Like coming through the microphone?

1:16:24Oh, yeah, no, I can.

1:16:25I can 100% feel how much you hate this.

1:16:28OK, good.

1:16:28I just want to make sure that you knew.

1:16:31Look, I know.

1:16:34Like, I totally know.

1:16:35I'm just trying to like, trying to cast my mind back in time

1:16:39would be one of the much more unexpected things

1:16:43if I were to have a conversation with a younger self and be like,

1:16:46"Hey man, you're gonna spend the next 10 years trying to figure out how to not hate exercise."

1:16:52And the answer is going to end up being weightlifting.

1:16:56And you, like, this is gonna be completely unexpected across every front,

1:17:01but just save yourself a bunch of time and do this.

1:17:04And also it seems to have a much higher hit rate

1:17:09than I would expect with other people that I'm trying to like,

1:17:13that I've tried to convince to do the same thing.

1:17:15It's like if you can do it a little bit, it has,

1:17:17it seems to have a much higher sticking rate

1:17:20than other kinds of things.

1:17:21Like running or whatever.

1:17:23Okay, but so look,

1:17:24here's the ones that I like and I think are really nice.

1:17:28I'm gonna send them to you.

1:17:29They're called Powerblock.

1:17:30And just try to put in your order before the show goes up.

1:17:33Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:17:35Yeah, my order will be in before the show notes go out to people, right?

1:17:39[Laughter]

1:17:40These are the kind where they're like, they're super compact and you can change the weights really easily.

1:17:44There's a bunch of adjustable dumbbells, but if you can't get adjustable ones,

1:17:48just get a little like light set of dumbbells.

1:17:50Get something.

1:17:51These are the ones that I really like and I strongly suggest you

1:17:55and any of the listeners who are having a hard time with exercise, try this.

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1:20:06relay FM.

1:20:07I mean the other way that you can exercise is in VR Myke. It's not quite the same as

1:20:11weightlifting but you know, it can get you part of the way there.

1:20:14I have some fun follow up. Mm hmm. I was able to get an oculus quest. Oh wow. Okay. Yeah.

1:20:19They came into stock and I got one immediately. It's a completely different experience. If you think you've experienced VR you haven't until you've

1:20:26experienced completely wireless VR.

1:20:28Great, you two have heard the good news about no wires. This is everyone's response. It's more than no wires as well

1:20:36It's like I don't have to turn the computer on. Mm-hmm

1:20:40And it really helps you just because it's just it on the kitchen table

1:20:44I just pick it up put it on and I can play a game. Yeah

1:20:47I've been playing four games quite a bit that I wanted to talk about.

1:20:52Mm-hmm.

1:20:53One of them is like we spoke about Beat Saber before.

1:20:56Mm-hmm.

1:20:56One thing we didn't talk about is Beat Saber's 360 degree levels.

1:21:01Well, we didn't talk about it because I didn't know that this wasn't a thing on the other headsets.

1:21:07Well, okay.

1:21:07So it didn't occur to me to bring it up.

1:21:08I don't know if it's on the other headsets,

1:21:10but when I played the game a bunch the first time, these levels didn't exist.

1:21:15Mm-hmm.

1:21:16it was just like straight on. But this completely changes the game in a bunch of really fun

1:21:21ways that you're not just looking at like a conveyor belt coming straight at you, they

1:21:28could be coming from any direction and you have to keep on top of that. That is a very

1:21:33different way to play Beat Saber which is much more fun.

1:21:35I think the optimal experience is the 90 degree one.

1:21:39Oh yeah, but the 360 degree ones are fun, but like the 90 degree ones are, or 90 or

1:21:44180 I think is another option like it's easier to play those. Yeah, I feel like they combine

1:21:49Enough. Oh, you got to look around for where the blocks are coming from

1:21:53You don't know without it being like it's gonna hit you from behind. All right, it's yeah 360 is like a completely different game

1:22:00I found another game which is kind of similar, but I prefer it's called pistol whip

1:22:05Which is a rhythm based shoot in game. Mm-hmm. And I think this game is fantastic

1:22:13It's exhilarating and challenging.

1:22:16How would you describe Pistol Whip?

1:22:18You are moving forward and you're in like these living target ranges basically and human

1:22:26shaped figures come at you and you have to shoot them.

1:22:30But it has the aesthetic that many VR games have of like this is a simulation which is

1:22:36way more comfortable feeling for a shooting game than this is real, right?

1:22:41you feel different about the things that you're shooting I think. So I think that works really

1:22:45nicely. I like that kind of idea. So still haven't tried Arizona Sunshine then anyway?

1:22:50Not yet. Not yet. You keep... I will, but just not yet. I need all of the moons to align before

1:22:57I try that game. I really like Pistol Whip because the songs are really good and the enemies are

1:23:04coming at you in a way that you can shoot them in time to a rhythm, which is very fun. And

1:23:11some of the levels surprise you in different ways.

1:23:15It is a very fun rhythm-based shooting game. I think it's great.

1:23:20Yeah, you recommended it to me. So I tried it and I didn't like it the first time,

1:23:25but that's partly because I was having some motion sickness issues with it.

1:23:30It takes a bit of getting used to because you are moving.

1:23:33Not a lot of VR games move you, but this one moves you forward through the levels.

1:23:38Yeah, well it's such an interesting way that the different systems try to handle the motion

1:23:44and as I've been just trying out different games it's interesting to see what different things do.

1:23:50But Pistol Whip was one of the very first ones that I had tried and I was like whoa I cannot deal

1:23:55with this. But I revisited it because you had mentioned it again for some reason I can't remember why.

1:24:00I just texted you and told you that it was incredible and you had to try it if you haven't.

1:24:04Right, right. Okay. And so I gave it a second try and I liked it much better for a couple of reasons.

1:24:11One of the reasons is I think it's a similar effect to like when I first started watching YouTube videos.

1:24:17I couldn't deal with the vlog style of filming where like the way that the camera bounces and is kind of jerky.

1:24:25At some point having just watched a bunch of vlog videos my brain just adapted to this.

1:24:31And it's like, "Okay, I can watch this.

1:24:33I can watch just a handheld camera in a way that I couldn't before,

1:24:37and I just don't even notice it really."

1:24:39And I think having done a bunch of the different VR games,

1:24:44I came to Pistol Whip with the same experience of,

1:24:48"Oh, my brain has learned a little bit better how to handle this."

1:24:51- It's like getting sea legs.

1:24:53- I genuinely think it's a good analogy.

1:24:56- You got your VR legs.

1:24:57- Yeah.

1:24:57It's funny how much the video games' like, conceptual framing helps your brain.

1:25:03So in Pistol Whip you are standing on a little platform, and it's the platform that's moving,

1:25:09it's not you just flying forward in space.

1:25:12And it's like, but something about just looking down and seeing the platform for a second,

1:25:16it's like it lets your brain go, "Okay, it's fine. We're moving forward on a platform.

1:25:22We're not just flying through space, and I don't need to freak out about what the heck is happening."

1:25:27I also, if people are going to try Pistol Whip, I recommend, I didn't realize there are a million

1:25:32settings for changing how stuff operates. I think you're about to recommend exactly

1:25:38what I'm about to recommend, but carry on. Okay, so I'm going to recommend, you want to do dual

1:25:43wielding. Yes!

1:25:44Because it's much more fun. Much better.

1:25:46And I'm going to recommend the Deadeye setting, which takes off like baby's first auto-aimer for

1:25:53- Oh, interesting. - for hitting targets.

1:25:54- Okay.

1:25:55- Those are my two suggestions

1:25:56because the first time I played it as well,

1:25:59their aim assist was way too strong for me.

1:26:01I felt like it was impossible to not hit the targets.

1:26:04- Not enough of a challenge, huh?

1:26:06- Yeah, I just, I'd like, it's not,

1:26:08or I should rephrase that.

1:26:09It's not that it wasn't enough of a challenge.

1:26:12It was more like it's too obvious

1:26:14that the system is really helping me out here.

1:26:17- Right.

1:26:18- So those are my suggestions.

1:26:19Like, dual wielding, because dual wielding is fun,

1:26:22and I would say turn on dead eye, which removes the aim assist.

1:26:27But what was going to be your suggestion?

1:26:29I was mostly going to say just you wield.

1:26:32Yeah, because--

1:26:32The dead eye, I turn on and off sometimes.

1:26:34It depends on what I'm looking for in that moment

1:26:37from the game.

1:26:38Yeah, what you're in the mood for.

1:26:39Yeah.

1:26:40Do I want to be precise, or do I just want to move around,

1:26:43you know?

1:26:43Yeah.

1:26:44I will say that the aesthetic in Pistol Whip

1:26:47is great for people in the know.

1:26:49It's very much like the opening scene of Lawnmower Man, which is right up my alley.

1:26:54But it's also something I wish more of the VR developers would do is, guys, don't try

1:27:02to make it look real.

1:27:04I much prefer the games for the most part that lean into the vector style artwork.

1:27:11Super hot really.

1:27:12Yeah, super hot.

1:27:14Pistol Whip is like a mixture of Superhot and Beat Saber to me.

1:27:18That's kind of how it feels.

1:27:19Yeah, that's a great way to describe it.

1:27:22It's a really good cross between those two.

1:27:24But I just, like, it's been interesting having tried a ton of games is I'm very aware of,

1:27:30like, the more abstract stuff just works much better, and I'm not a big fan of most of the

1:27:37games where they're trying to make it look super real.

1:27:40It's like, "No, guys, lean into the limitations."

1:27:42Except for Arizona Sunshine, right?

1:27:44Yeah, I like Arizona Sunshine, but for the most part, like, guys, you don't need to make

1:27:48a tree that you're trying to make look like a tree. I'm perfectly fine with a circular

1:27:53triangular pyramid on top of a cylinder and you just color one green and one brown. Like

1:27:58I can go with that.

1:27:59I think these are the difference. This is like the main difference between VR gaming

1:28:04and non VR gaming. Non VR gaming, the more real it looks, the more engaging it is. But

1:28:09with VR gaming, you don't need visuals to make it engaging. Yeah. Like just make the

1:28:15mechanics work because you just accept the world you're in immediately if the physics

1:28:21are good and the mechanics work well. You just accept it. So it doesn't need to be

1:28:26photorealistic for me to believe that I'm there.

1:28:28Yes, yeah, that's exactly right. Like your brain, because they're objects, is just

1:28:33willing to go along with it in a way that you don't need to be tricked that it looks

1:28:37real. And I wish developers would spend less time trying to make stuff look real because

1:28:43It's like it's still not quite there yet and it just doesn't it just doesn't need to be

1:28:47But so that is also partly why I like the aesthetic for pistol whip is like they're not trying to make it look real

1:28:51And it's totally fine

1:28:54I was glad that you poked me again about that one

1:28:57Because I did enjoy it much better after I think my brain was a little bit more used to the motion

1:29:02Except the only thing I have to be careful about is every once in a while if I take a step backward

1:29:08for some reason that that still throws my brain way off of like

1:29:12what's what the hell is happening like if i take a step backwards like

1:29:16something about the physics doesn't work so i i try to make sure it's like

1:29:20forward only backward no that's interesting have you come across

1:29:27audica no i haven't it is a rhythm game made by harmonix okay which is the

1:29:33company that made rock band okay this is the most comprehensive best

1:29:38made rhythm game I've come across on VR. Okay. Because it's made by like the rhythm game people.

1:29:45It is complex. Like there is a lot of stuff going on. You have like sometimes you're shooting,

1:29:52sometimes you're holding, sometimes you're hitting things out of the sky and you kind of have to,

1:29:57like Rockband, there are like different shapes and you have to understand what you are supposed

1:30:04to do based on the shape and they have real licensed music and it's fantastic.

1:30:10okay I'll check it out. like it's just like mechanically it's done so well it's

1:30:16like oh I feel really good when I'm getting this right just like when I used

1:30:20to feel really good when I was getting rock band right. like in a way that beat

1:30:24saber is satisfying when you are doing a good job but I don't really feel

1:30:30accomplished but in Ortica I feel accomplished because I'll play a level

1:30:36and I'll play it again and I'm better at it play it again and I'm better at it

1:30:39and like it's that repetition of getting better and better that harmonics know

1:30:45how to do really well hmm and it is really really excellent like if you've

1:30:51played any type of rhythm game on VR and enjoyed it I really recommend this one

1:30:55and I also found a pottery game I saw the pottery game in the store and I had

1:31:00this moment of "I should probably tell Myke about that" but then I thought there's no

1:31:03way he doesn't know already that there's a pottery game.

1:31:05I just turned on my Oculus one day and I was like "oh my god it's a pottery game" and like

1:31:11it's not pottery isn't right but it's like close in some ways and it's it's fun and weird

1:31:19it's it's trying to be realistic in certain ways right like it's not trying to be like

1:31:24a weird VR game. I enjoy it. Like I love it. I don't love it anywhere close to the way

1:31:30that I love the other games that I've mentioned, but it was just like a really funny thing

1:31:34to happen to me. I was like so excited when I saw it and I played it and I was like, you

1:31:38know what? Pottery VR game, you're very calming. So I appreciate that about you.

1:31:44I'm glad you do. There's all these interesting VR experiences that can be had and you know,

1:31:51It's funny because when you mentioned before about how there's no substitute for travel,

1:31:56I was thinking a little bit about the VR systems because I've genuinely found the Quest to

1:32:04be a great tool for creating the experience of being in another space.

1:32:12I really think it has been meaningfully helpful, especially without the ability to go outside

1:32:18to be able to use the quest and I do have it kind of slotted into my schedule of like exercise

1:32:26rotation because I think it is useful to do this on a regular basis. It's just it's very interesting

1:32:32how your brain is willing to go along with it and ever since we did that demo years ago this is one

1:32:39technology where I feel like I'm really excited to see the future of this and speaking of like

1:32:46going back to the start of the show, but speaking of the physical distances in places, it's like,

1:32:50man, I am gunning for the day that I can do work in a VR environment. Like for when the headsets

1:32:59get light enough and comfortable enough and the resolution gets high enough so that text is sharp.

1:33:05Even just in the quest, some of those loading environments where you're just picking, you know,

1:33:11know what game you want to play but they put you in like oh you're in a little Japanese

1:33:16house and and the lotus flowers are falling like it's so beautiful and I really have this

1:33:24strong feeling of if I could I would totally write in this geodesic dome 100% I would do

1:33:33that but the technology just isn't there yet.

1:33:37But you know like when using these it's gonna get there right like you can feel it right

1:33:41like it's close.

1:33:42Yeah that's that's what I mean by I'm excited about this because it's like okay in a couple

1:33:47generations if we can cut down the weight of the headset by half and if say the the

1:33:54resolution can increase by double or four times like we can get there and it's going

1:33:59to go there.

1:34:00So like I find myself really quite excited for that of like I know and can see like I

1:34:05I will use something like this as a working environment at some point in the future for

1:34:13sure.

1:34:14Like there is no doubt about that in my mind and I just like I look forward to that to

1:34:18that becoming reality at some point.

1:34:20What I will say is for me like it is a replacement for outside.

1:34:24It's not a replacement for travel.

1:34:28Right okay yeah that's a good way to put it.

1:34:31I can feel that like, oh, I did a thing today.

1:34:34Like that thing could have been going to the park.

1:34:37It's not like I've been out of the country for 10 days.

1:34:40Like it doesn't, it's not that level.

1:34:42'Cause I don't think I could do VR for 10 days.

1:34:45- Yeah, no, no, no.

1:34:46I'm not saying I wanna take a great vacation in VR yet.

1:34:50- Yeah, yeah you are.

1:34:50You wanna do that.

1:34:52Don't say you don't wanna do that, you do.

1:34:53- That's more like 20 years from now, but yeah, for sure.

1:34:57- And look, I know you've played Animal Crossing.

1:35:00I watched the stream, it went exactly as I expected.

1:35:04For some reason people think that I wanted you to play

1:35:07when I explicitly said I didn't want you to play this game.

1:35:10- I know, I know, I asked if I should try it

1:35:13and you said yes, that's the way that went.

1:35:17- Well, I didn't want you to play it

1:35:18'cause I knew how you were gonna,

1:35:19well, okay, maybe it was like I said you should try it

1:35:21but I knew how it was gonna go.

1:35:23Like I wasn't surprised about the fact

1:35:25that you hated this game.

1:35:27- Right.

1:35:28- I knew you were gonna hate it.

1:35:29Yeah, no, I mean we don't need to discuss it in detail.

1:35:32The evidence is there for people.

1:35:35I didn't expect to like the game, and I was correct.

1:35:39- One could suggest that you went into it negatively.

1:35:43One could suggest that you were not in the correct space

1:35:47to play the game when you went at it, but you know.

1:35:50- That is totally fair, but the thing is,

1:35:53Animal Crossing annoyed me in all sorts of ways

1:35:55that I wasn't expecting, right?

1:35:57So I think even under the most ideal of circumstances, there is no way that I would like this game.

1:36:03But it's like I had expectations to be annoyed and I was annoyed in ways that I was completely blindsided by.

1:36:09This is not Animal Crossing specific. I think this is a kind of

1:36:12Nintendo disease. Nintendo likes to take things slow sometimes, like in there. And all of the

1:36:19Nintendo first party games, they're real chill about dialogue boxes and

1:36:26You're selecting a racing track for Mario Kart and you know, hey guys

1:36:30Don't you just want to watch this spinner spin for a while?

1:36:33No, I don't like I want to pick a course and go I have a way to describe Nintendo

1:36:38Nintendo's development it's painful charm. Yes. Yeah, that tends to be the way in the Nintendo makes their games

1:36:45They're like that charming and they do things in the way that they do them, but sometimes it's really painful

1:36:49Yeah, like with Animal Crossing. It's that everything runs in real time. I like that it runs in real time, but sometimes

1:36:55It's like, "Oh, jeez. Tom, look, will you just destroy the bridge right now?

1:36:59Why is it gonna take you a day to destroy the bridge, Tom?

1:37:02Like, you've just got a thousand bells for this."

1:37:04[laughter]

1:37:06Yeah, like, so that is a Nintendo disease,

1:37:10and I think Animal Crossing may be its most pure expression.

1:37:15I am glad I at least played it for a little bit,

1:37:18so I had a bit more of a first-hand experience of what this was.

1:37:23But yeah, I very quickly realized like, you know what I don't want to do? I don't want to press A

1:37:2720,000 times over the course of many hours to accomplish things. So I'm gonna bail on this, but I'm glad I tried it

1:37:36I'm glad I tried it