74: The Biggest Challenge of Being a Human


00:00:00   Big tech week, Myke.

00:00:01   Oh, huge. I'm so excited.

00:00:03   There's been some massive leaps in technology this week that we have to talk about.

00:00:07   Everyone knows what they are, right?

00:00:09   We all know what we're talking about.

00:00:10   Oh my god. I'm so excited.

00:00:11   Yep.

00:00:12   New Roombas.

00:00:14   So, you know, obviously the iRobot company has been paying attention to our continued Roomba coverage.

00:00:22   I believe so, yes, obviously.

00:00:23   And has created the product that we've been looking for.

00:00:26   It comes out next year and it does two things.

00:00:29   It empties itself, which is awesome, but also it learns your house and you can assign rooms

00:00:37   and tell it to go clean specific rooms.

00:00:39   The only thing that we were looking for.

00:00:41   - I have to say, there's no more satisfying feeling in the world than when you vaguely

00:00:46   complain about a thing on a podcast and then the world just solves that problem for you

00:00:51   before the next episode.

00:00:53   - It's really good.

00:00:53   Good.

00:00:54   It's fantastic, not only because obviously you get to talk about it on the next episode

00:01:00   of the podcast, but you feel like you have accomplished a thing.

00:01:04   I encourage everyone to start podcasts for their minor complaints about things in their

00:01:09   lives.

00:01:10   Oh, it's great, but I found it just so funny that Roomba releases a new robot and it does

00:01:15   exactly the one thing that you wanted from it.

00:01:20   I think that's just so great.

00:01:22   It's good and bad, because I don't really want to buy another Roomba yet. I mean it

00:01:27   doesn't come out until next year, so at some point in my future I will get one of these

00:01:32   ones. But I'm going to stick with little Rob E for a while. That's the name I've gone for

00:01:36   by the way. Rob E is like R O B hyphen E like Wally, because it's also a trash robot. So

00:01:43   Rob E is the name of my Roomba.

00:01:45   That's pretty cute. Our Roomba is named Roomba.

00:01:49   Roomba's my family name, sir.

00:01:51   I mean, for robots, we're now the family who's named their dog, Dog.

00:01:56   That's, I mean, that's really what we've done.

00:01:58   Yeah.

00:01:58   But we just call it Roomba.

00:02:00   And I had a funny feeling with this tech announcement of there is a new Roomba for

00:02:07   I realized that I so anthropomorphize the Roomba that this would be a piece of technology

00:02:17   I would feel guilty about getting rid of.

00:02:21   Ooooh. I haven't thought of that.

00:02:26   No joke, I would feel guilty getting rid of the Roomba. Have you ever seen, Myke, what

00:02:33   I think is perhaps one of the best television commercials ever made? And it is for IKEA,

00:02:40   and it is a woman throwing out her old lamp. Have you ever seen this commercial?

00:02:44   Absolutely unbelievable. Yeah, that is just a wonderful commercial. I'll put it in the

00:02:49   the show notes if people haven't seen it.

00:02:51   Put it in the show notes for people. Just go watch this commercial. If you don't know

00:02:55   what we're talking about, just go watch it. I really think it may be one of the five best

00:03:00   commercials I've ever seen in my life. It's fantastic.

00:03:03   It was directed by Spike Jonze. That's no surprise. Like it was a very, very good director

00:03:08   who made this. I'm not surprised.

00:03:11   But that is how I would feel about getting rid of my Roomba. So I don't have any plans

00:03:17   to upgrade. And that's partly because I don't really have any complaints about the Roomba.

00:03:22   It's not really needs based. And it's also slightly guilt based that would feel bad about

00:03:28   replacing the Roomba. The only thing the only thing about this Roomba, which they are selling

00:03:34   as a feature, but I don't think it's a feature is this auto emptying thing. Now, when you hear that

00:03:44   that the Roomba automatically empties itself,

00:03:46   you imagine, oh, it must be able to hop over

00:03:48   to the garbage can and pop open the lid

00:03:50   and get rid of its contents.

00:03:51   It's not doing that.

00:03:52   From what I was reading, it's more like it empties itself

00:03:56   into a much bigger container in the charging base.

00:03:59   - Yeah.

00:04:00   - And then you empty the charging base,

00:04:02   but you only have to do that,

00:04:03   I think it was like 1/30th as much

00:04:06   as emptying the regular Roomba.

00:04:07   - Yeah, it will do 30 empties,

00:04:09   but then here's the thing though, here's the thing.

00:04:11   - Okay.

00:04:12   to buy the bags from iRobot.

00:04:14   - Oh, I didn't realize there's a little bag on the inside?

00:04:17   - Yeah, I think they actually have a version of this

00:04:19   which doesn't have the emptying,

00:04:21   and I think I would probably go for the non-emptying version

00:04:25   because it is a really big base at that point

00:04:28   'cause it's got this huge tank at the top

00:04:30   and it uses a vacuum system to put,

00:04:34   I don't think I really,

00:04:35   personally, I don't really think I need that.

00:04:38   I don't really need the base thing.

00:04:40   I'm good.

00:04:41   You can buy it for much cheaper on its own.

00:04:43   It's like $700 for the, this Roomba's called the i7 Plus,

00:04:47   a 700, or it's 949 for the Roomba i7 Plus

00:04:52   with the base station.

00:04:54   - I didn't realize that came in two parts.

00:04:56   Yeah, so I wouldn't buy it with the new base station

00:04:58   because I really like emptying the Roomba.

00:05:03   I find it so satisfying every time that I have to empty it.

00:05:09   - Why?

00:05:10   Because it's, look at all of this work I didn't have to do.

00:05:15   Look at all of this vacuuming that happened

00:05:20   and I was totally uninvolved in it.

00:05:22   And yes, I know I'm emptying it at that moment,

00:05:26   but that is a moment to me of just great satisfaction.

00:05:30   When the Rumpus sends me his little push notification

00:05:32   of, "Hey, I need to empty the bin," I'm so happy.

00:05:34   Like, I can't wait.

00:05:36   And it's like, it clicks satisfyingly and you dump it out

00:05:38   and it's like, oh man, look at all this work

00:05:40   I didn't have to do.

00:05:42   Thank you Roomba, good boy.

00:05:43   - I feel like the only way I could get rid of my Roomba

00:05:45   is like donating it to a family member,

00:05:47   so I could still go around and visit every now and then.

00:05:50   - Yeah, you wanna send it to a good home, right?

00:05:53   - A good Roomba farm upstate.

00:05:54   (laughing)

00:05:56   - It really is, it's so anthropomorphized.

00:05:59   - Little Robbie.

00:06:01   - What a good boy.

00:06:02   You know Myke, I've been at some undisclosed locations.

00:06:08   traveling lately, out in the, out in the woods, trying to make some space in my life, saying hello to sheep.

00:06:17   [laughter]

00:06:20   And what has accompanied me on my many journeys is my absolutely delightful Cortex hoodie.

00:06:30   Ah, yes, the Cortex hoodie.

00:06:33   I've got to say, when you're walking in the forest, it's a chilly morning.

00:06:38   It's a fantastic hoodie to have with you.

00:06:41   However, I feel sad for all the people in the world who were not able to get one in

00:06:50   time during the limited sale.

00:06:54   It's such a great, I'm wearing it.

00:06:59   I'm wearing it right now.

00:07:00   it right now, as we record, I have the temperature turned down in my office to 65 degrees and

00:07:07   I'm wearing my hoodie in the black monolith and it's super cozy.

00:07:12   Everyone should have one of these, but it was just a, just a limited run.

00:07:18   If only there was a way that people could experience the sublime happiness that the

00:07:26   Cortex hoodie brings me and and could bring them.

00:07:30   I have good news.

00:07:31   Oh, do you?

00:07:33   We are establishing our very first line of clothing.

00:07:37   It's called the original line and it's a cortexmerch.com.

00:07:40   Cortexmerch.com.

00:07:41   The original line includes the original logo embroidered hoodie.

00:07:46   The gray love so much.

00:07:48   I do.

00:07:48   And our original tee.

00:07:50   So the blue brain, as you know it on a tee, but we are adding two

00:07:54   products to the original line is an embroidered hat so a hat with an embroidered logo on it

00:08:01   and an enamel pin.

00:08:04   People do love pins.

00:08:06   People love pins.

00:08:07   I got a lot of people want pins so we're making pins.

00:08:10   It's an enamel pin with the blue Cortex logo on it so that is they are the four products

00:08:15   that is making up what we're calling the original line.

00:08:18   Now the original line that is going to remain in stock.

00:08:21   That is going to be a permanent store at cortexmerch.com that you can go and buy stuff from.

00:08:27   Cortexmerch.com.

00:08:28   The tea and the hoodie and the hat, we're doing pre-orders of those for the first time.

00:08:33   So the first time you go there now, they're on pre-order, but then they'll be available

00:08:35   forever.

00:08:36   The pins, I say pins, we'll get to that.

00:08:39   The pins are available right now.

00:08:41   You can buy them and they will ship immediately.

00:08:43   If you buy pins on their own, they'll ship immediately.

00:08:45   If you buy pins on other products, they will ship when they're ready.

00:08:48   But I do want to note that those pins, we will keep them in stock, but we have to buy

00:08:52   them in advance, they will sell out and then there'll be a wait before they come back again.

00:08:57   So it's just something to note because people love pins.

00:09:00   So that pin will join another pin, which is a limited pin, which is for Care Tax.

00:09:08   We are turning our brains to our hearts.

00:09:11   So you buy a pink...

00:09:12   Oh nice!

00:09:13   Here we go from brain to heart, you get a pink Care Tax pin.

00:09:17   Now this is a very limited edition pin.

00:09:19   So if you want this, you've got to get it because we're not bringing it back.

00:09:22   And that will join, or at least for a while, that will join a T-shirt,

00:09:26   which is has our pink heart on it, our pink cortex heart, which you can buy.

00:09:30   These are on limited edition, so they're going to go

00:09:33   once the three weeks is up, you won't be able to buy those anymore.

00:09:35   And it's joining another product, Gray, that I am very excited about,

00:09:39   which is My Creation.

00:09:41   Now podcast T-shirts, they tend to be pretty bold, right?

00:09:46   So people want to show off the logos of the shows that they love.

00:09:48   Totally get that.

00:09:49   That's why we put our logos front and center.

00:09:51   But there are times in your life where you want to wear something

00:09:55   that means something to you, like a cortex t-shirt, of course.

00:09:58   But you're in company.

00:10:00   Maybe you're going out somewhere, you're in more mixed company,

00:10:03   and you don't want to have the big logo on your body.

00:10:05   So I have created, in partnership with our friends at Cotton Bureau,

00:10:09   a tee which has a small embroidered logo on it.

00:10:14   And we're calling it the subtlety.

00:10:16   Sometimes you want to, you want to be more subtle about your never-ending love for

00:10:21   Cortex.

00:10:22   You want to show your affinity for the show, but you're going out for dinner.

00:10:25   You want to wear the subtlety to that.

00:10:29   And that's available now along with, so we've got a lot of products now because

00:10:33   we're really excited about making this stuff.

00:10:35   We want to give people options, but the original line, that's always going to be

00:10:38   there.

00:10:38   We have pins, we have Care Tax and we have the subtlety cortexmerch.com.

00:10:43   available right now.

00:10:47   - It's so great.

00:10:48   All I wanted was people to always be able to buy the hoodie

00:10:53   and now we have like a cornucopia

00:10:58   of Cortex merch for them.

00:11:00   It's very exciting.

00:11:02   - At cortexmerch.com.

00:11:04   - Cortexmerch.com.

00:11:06   - Hey, Gray, I wanna talk about yearly themes

00:11:09   because I've been in a little bit of a

00:11:12   yearly theme wilderness.

00:11:13   Oh yeah?

00:11:14   Because one of mine is done, right?

00:11:15   So like the year of adulting is done.

00:11:18   So I feel like I've had a little bit less kind of guidance in my life recently.

00:11:23   But this I think has been a good thing.

00:11:25   So like I've still got my year of branching out.

00:11:27   That's still happening.

00:11:27   I'm working on some stuff like that's that's going ahead as as planned.

00:11:31   But I like to have a couple of things going on.

00:11:35   So my brain, I think, has taken this time to think,

00:11:40   you know, I've had some background processes going on where I've had a little bit of space to think.

00:11:45   And I've started doing a couple of things and thinking about a couple of things.

00:11:48   I've been bouncing some ideas around that I'm either going to maybe formalize into a theme to take me through the rest of the year

00:11:55   or may end up going into my 2019 Yeti theme. And I wanted to share these things with you.

00:12:00   So you're in the formulation phase. You're just like mulling it over.

00:12:05   Accidentally though, right?

00:12:07   But I wasn't actively, I was like, you know, in my mind,

00:12:10   I was like, great, I completed a yearly theme.

00:12:12   I have one less theme to think about.

00:12:14   But then my brain seemed to be unhappy about this.

00:12:17   And I've just had this like kind of urge

00:12:21   in a few different, for a few different types

00:12:24   of things recently, and this is what I'm kind of

00:12:26   pinning it on, it's like, oh, well, the theme is done.

00:12:30   - I find this funny for a couple of reasons.

00:12:32   I mean, first, it totally makes sense because,

00:12:34   as we have said many times, yearly themes,

00:12:36   they don't have to be a year.

00:12:37   They can be longer, they can be shorter.

00:12:39   They are what they are.

00:12:40   They're a theme in your life.

00:12:41   But I'm personally finding this interesting

00:12:45   that you're bringing this up now

00:12:47   because my year cycle,

00:12:50   what I always mentally think of as a year

00:12:52   is still clocked to the academic year.

00:12:55   And so I'm always in mulling over phase,

00:12:58   really starting pretty hard in the summer.

00:13:01   But you historically have really pushed

00:13:05   that, no Grey, you're not allowed to talk about new themes in November or October. That's

00:13:12   a terrible time. You have to wait until January to talk about that.

00:13:14   You've got to wait for the big theme, like the unveiling of the new theme. It has to

00:13:19   be January! Nobody wants a new theme! It's like, "Oh, here's my September resolution!"

00:13:24   No one wants that! I know, I know, but I find it a little bit

00:13:30   frustrating because I'm always in a real theme-y mood, you know, in September time

00:13:36   and in August time, like it's really on my mind and that's when I'm also doing

00:13:40   the percolating. So I just like that you have unintentionally synchronised with me a little

00:13:46   bit this year with one of your main themes being completed in under a year.

00:13:51   It's just, look, teaching got you into this habit, Cortex is going to get you out of it,

00:13:56   right? We're going to move you to January, it's just going to take 10 years, but don't

00:13:59   No, no, I like, well, I mean, first of all, you're fighting against my entire academic

00:14:04   childhood plus my adult job, so you got a long way to go.

00:14:07   Cortex will eclipse it eventually. Episode 7,000.

00:14:12   Always so optimistic about the run length of the show. Also very optimistic about those

00:14:20   numbers. What are we on now in the...

00:14:24   74.

00:14:25   75? I don't know exactly.

00:14:26   It would take us about 30,000 years to get to episode 7,000.

00:14:32   But anyway, I'm also in a pondering mood, so I'm enjoying that you're in the pondering mood as well.

00:14:41   I just didn't think you would bring this up now because normally this is verboten.

00:14:45   This is the disallowed time. You cannot talk about it until January.

00:14:49   But while I'm not unveiling a new theme here, I'm just talking about some stuff I'm interested in right now.

00:14:54   are some things I'm thinking about. But they also at the same time, they don't really feel like

00:14:58   they would be like completely theme worthy, right? They're just new little things going on in my life.

00:15:03   One of them is yoga. So I am not a very active person in general and I suffered an injury,

00:15:13   which meant I was less active over the last couple of months. So I've been thinking,

00:15:20   This is not a life that I want to lead of being completely unfit, but I also have to fight against

00:15:27   the fact that I hate basically all exercise and always have. I've never enjoyed physical activity

00:15:33   even as a kid. You know, I hated pee. I was just never good at anything and so I didn't enjoy it.

00:15:38   I'm with you there.

00:15:39   And then when you're not good at something in school, everyone makes fun of you,

00:15:45   which makes it worse, right? So, you know, it's like a whole thing. I'm expecting there might be

00:15:49   at least a portion of our listeners that can associate with this.

00:15:54   Oh, not being good at sports in school and maybe getting teased for it as a child? No,

00:15:58   I can't imagine that that overlaps with the Cortex listener base at all.

00:16:03   So it's just not something I've ever enjoyed, and as an adult, I've still yet to really

00:16:08   find a type of activity and exercise that brought me anything other than dread. You

00:16:15   You know, like, I've always looked at my friends who are like,

00:16:18   "Oh, I just feel so good after the gym."

00:16:20   I've never do.

00:16:21   I never get anything out of it, like, except pain,

00:16:25   like, frustration, like, it doesn't do anything for me.

00:16:28   - Yeah, I'm always annoyed by those people too.

00:16:30   They're like, "Oh, just do this thing

00:16:31   "and you'll feel amazing."

00:16:32   I start every day with a marathon.

00:16:35   And I was like, "God damn it, like, I hate you so much."

00:16:37   (laughing)

00:16:39   If I started every day with a marathon,

00:16:41   all that would get done is every day

00:16:43   I would do a quarter of a marathon

00:16:44   then that would be the end of it, right? Nothing else would happen.

00:16:46   Great. If I started today with a marathon, it would be my last day. That would be it

00:16:50   for me. I would have no more. But I found yoga. And the reason I came to yoga is I've

00:16:57   been, you know, long time listeners of the show will know that I am susceptible to repetitive

00:17:02   strain injury. And I was starting to feel some pains in my neck and they weren't going

00:17:08   away and I was getting concerned. So aside from trying to do some things to fix my posture,

00:17:14   I was starting to think about like what types of activity could I do that would maybe help strengthen my muscles

00:17:21   mm-hmm, but also be less likely to cause me any further injuries and

00:17:27   I was been thinking about this a lot and kind of settled on yoga because it's not a high impact activity

00:17:34   and

00:17:36   Can be done at home

00:17:38   Which was a big thing for me. I'm

00:17:41   Again, tying into the gym class experience, don't like performing physical activity in

00:17:46   front of other people.

00:17:49   Not keen on yoga classes right now, right?

00:17:53   Because every beginner's yoga class, it's not all people who it's their first day.

00:18:00   You know, you're always going to be the person that goes who doesn't know what they're doing

00:18:03   and falls over.

00:18:04   So, you know, not keen on that.

00:18:07   But I found there's a bunch of stuff on YouTube, so I watched some YouTube videos and then

00:18:10   and found an app that I use called Daily Yoga.

00:18:14   And I have been doing yoga every single day

00:18:16   for the last three and a half weeks.

00:18:18   - Every day?

00:18:19   - Every single day.

00:18:20   This has been the longest sustained exercise

00:18:22   that I have ever accomplished in my life.

00:18:25   - Wow.

00:18:26   - It's, you know, I'm doing programs

00:18:28   and the programs last from like 15 to 30 minutes every day

00:18:32   depending on what you're doing every day.

00:18:34   I have a yoga mat and I have enough space in my office

00:18:38   to just put my iPad down, close the guns, close the door.

00:18:43   (laughing)

00:18:44   - Don't look at me.

00:18:45   - Don't look at me.

00:18:47   And participate in my yoga practice.

00:18:49   And I feel very proud of myself

00:18:53   and I'm already starting to notice differences

00:18:57   in my flexibility, which I'm really enthused about.

00:19:01   Because one of the worst things about exercising

00:19:03   is when you don't see anything for a long time, right?

00:19:06   Like it's so disheartening.

00:19:08   but I feel like there's some poses that I'm able to do more effectively

00:19:14   or I'm able to stretch further in them.

00:19:16   It's a very toot my own horn situation but I feel very proud of myself

00:19:22   that I'm finally doing something and found something that I actually

00:19:26   kind of enjoy it.

00:19:28   You know?

00:19:29   There are still times where I'm like "I don't want to do it today."

00:19:32   But most of the time I do want to do it.

00:19:37   No, I think you have every right to toot your own horn.

00:19:42   I mean, especially with something like this

00:19:43   where you've never been able to stick with anything

00:19:46   and now you've found something

00:19:47   that you are more able to stick with.

00:19:50   Like the progress thing is so important,

00:19:53   being able to see that it actually makes a difference.

00:19:56   'Cause I can't reiterate your points

00:20:01   on exercise more strongly enough.

00:20:03   And the only reason the thing that I'm able

00:20:06   to stick with the longest in little batches

00:20:10   is strength training.

00:20:12   And it's precisely that reason.

00:20:13   It's like, oh, I can see progress immediately.

00:20:16   And that's what helps stick you with it.

00:20:18   But can I ask, when you say that you're doing it,

00:20:21   like what are you doing in the room on your own?

00:20:24   Is it just like very basic,

00:20:26   like holding poses for a period of time and stretches?

00:20:29   Or like, what does the routine look like?

00:20:31   - It's like, you know, so there's like 30 minutes.

00:20:34   We might do like 10 different poses

00:20:36   through that period of time with, you know,

00:20:38   the resting that you do in yoga.

00:20:42   Yoga's a lot of resting as well as activity, right?

00:20:45   So it's kind of like part of the idea that it helps,

00:20:48   as they say in the videos,

00:20:49   integrate what you're doing into your body.

00:20:51   And yeah, I don't know,

00:20:53   like it's a lot of what you would expect, right?

00:20:55   There's downward dog and lotus pose

00:20:58   and all that kind of stuff.

00:20:59   It's a lot of balancing and a lot of stretching.

00:21:02   The balancing stuff is where the real hard work is.

00:21:06   And that's where you'll find yourself in a position

00:21:11   where you may be on one leg and trying to hold a pose,

00:21:15   or you might be like, kind of your leg stretched out

00:21:19   and your arm over your head,

00:21:20   and you kind of have to like just hold it.

00:21:23   And then there's a lot of like laying down

00:21:25   and trying to stretch your body into a specific position.

00:21:29   It's kind of hard to explain,

00:21:31   but I can feel that it's doing something

00:21:34   because my muscles hurt.

00:21:36   - Right, that's how you know something happened.

00:21:38   - Exactly, so I think it's just a lot of

00:21:40   finding ways to use your own body weight against you.

00:21:45   I think that's what a lot of what yoga is,

00:21:47   that's how it helps with the fitness.

00:21:49   And I know that there are people

00:21:52   that actually know there's answers

00:21:53   who are just probably rolling their eyes at me right now,

00:21:55   but that's kind of how it feels,

00:21:57   that a lot of the time, the hardest work is

00:22:00   you need to hold yourself in an unnatural pose

00:22:02   where your body weight is trying to get to the ground.

00:22:06   And that's where kind of the hard work is found.

00:22:09   But there's also, like as you would expect with yoga,

00:22:12   there is a lot of almost like pseudo meditation practice

00:22:15   in it, you know?

00:22:16   So everything's focused around your breath.

00:22:19   Like every practice will include a period of time

00:22:22   where you are just laying down

00:22:24   or holding a very simple pose

00:22:26   and focusing on your breathing

00:22:28   and the instructor with the video is telling me

00:22:30   to let my stress go for the day.

00:22:32   And I think that's another part of why I enjoy it.

00:22:35   I've never really tried any meditation stuff,

00:22:37   but I've always had it in the back of my mind

00:22:39   and it's probably something

00:22:40   that I would get something out of.

00:22:42   And I think it is nice to spend 30 minutes every day

00:22:46   with no distractions and being able to focus

00:22:51   on thinking about letting stuff go.

00:22:55   It's nice, right?

00:22:56   is just a nice little thing that I've been doing, which I think serves a dual purpose

00:23:00   where it's helping with fitness but maybe also with stress levels.

00:23:04   Well, I do always like those dual purposes. Anything that can count twice is great. That's

00:23:12   the best stuff in life is stuff that counts more than once. So there is a bit of a guided

00:23:16   – yeah, I don't want to say meditation but there's a guided focus element to what

00:23:21   you're doing. And I guess yoga aesthetically seems like this is not the exercise in which

00:23:30   you want to put on your headphones and be blasting like Britney Spears music while you're

00:23:35   doing your yoga. That doesn't seem like it would thematically go.

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00:25:27   show and Relay FM.

00:25:30   So without giving away what you're thinking of as your yearly theme, why do you feel like

00:25:37   this is mulling over in the back of your mind?

00:25:41   Like, do you just, are you just thinking about

00:25:43   your physical fitness or is there something

00:25:46   more specifically that you're trying to achieve?

00:25:48   Or like, why is this part of the mulling over yearly themes?

00:25:53   - I think there is something going on where

00:25:57   my mind is trying to take over certain things

00:26:04   that I do and change them.

00:26:05   So, okay, so it probably helps if I explain

00:26:07   of the other stuff that I'm feeling. One is more music when I'm working. And I don't really know

00:26:13   why I feel the requirement to have this, that when I am working on stuff which does not require audio

00:26:21   to have music playing, you know, and this I'm typically trying to find like...

00:26:26   Some Rachel Platten.

00:26:27   Yeah, just different remixes of Fight Song over and over again. No, I'm like trying to find

00:26:35   music about words. So I would love recommendations in the Reddit, by the way, if people have

00:26:39   music that they listen to which doesn't have lyrics in that they like, I would like more

00:26:44   recommendations.

00:26:45   It's so hard to find good music like that.

00:26:46   Yeah, I mean, because a lot of it is soundtracks to stuff, right? But I don't necessarily know

00:26:51   if that's what I'm looking for. Like, I don't know if I want a John Williams score to accompany

00:26:55   my afternoon, because they can be quite distracting.

00:26:58   Yeah, people always recommend soundtracks when you talk about music without lyrics.

00:27:02   Personally, I think soundtracks are terrible

00:27:05   for accompanying work.

00:27:06   - Maybe it would help if I explain

00:27:08   what I am listening to currently for this stuff.

00:27:11   So I have two playlists

00:27:12   that I've been kind of alternating between.

00:27:15   I've mentioned a podcast called "The Adventure Zone"

00:27:18   in the past.

00:27:19   They sell all of the music that they use for the show.

00:27:23   It's like 91 songs at the moment.

00:27:25   And it's really nice and simple stuff mostly.

00:27:28   I mean, it is their soundtrack stuff, but it's not...

00:27:32   It's not like...

00:27:34   The thing about movie soundtracks is they're supposed to accompany action a lot of the time,

00:27:38   and that's not what's happening with this stuff, right?

00:27:40   Like it's more ambiance music, I guess is what I'm looking for.

00:27:44   For someone who doesn't know anything about it,

00:27:46   like what kind of instruments are they using?

00:27:48   Mostly synths.

00:27:49   Okay, so it's synthesizer music, okay.

00:27:51   And like keyboard stuff, and you know, it's like it's chill in that way.

00:27:56   It's not like big drums and rocking guitars and an orchestra,

00:28:00   Like it's not like that kind of stuff.

00:28:01   It's more, more stripped back, I guess.

00:28:04   - Or the classic action B like,

00:28:06   (imitates drumming)

00:28:07   - Exactly, and I don't want that.

00:28:09   I don't need Hans Zimmer to orchestrate my show prep.

00:28:12   It's not a thing that I need.

00:28:14   - I'm sending out invoices now.

00:28:17   (imitates drumming)

00:28:20   - It's not needed.

00:28:21   - Too much, too much music.

00:28:23   Take it back.

00:28:24   - And via the Mackerel Rock connection,

00:28:26   I found somebody by the name of Louis Zong,

00:28:29   who just makes these little beautiful pieces of music that are, I don't even know how to

00:28:36   describe them, but I will put their, I think they've got like a bandcamp or a soundcloud

00:28:41   page, I'll put their link in the show notes so you can kind of get an idea of it. But

00:28:44   again, this is mostly like very simple synthesized music, you know, and that seems to be, you

00:28:50   know, it's like, can you make it with a keyboard or a computer? If you can, I'm probably going

00:28:54   to enjoy it.

00:28:56   So I also really love a band called Anamanaguchi and that's all synthesized music and stuff.

00:29:02   So that's kind of I think what makes my brain happy and is pleasant to listen to but not

00:29:08   disruptive.

00:29:10   So yeah that's the kind of stuff that I've been listening to and I'm trying to make more

00:29:14   of an effort of putting this stuff on in the background when I'm at home and working.

00:29:19   The other thing is thinking about where I'm spending my social media time. I don't really

00:29:29   know why, but I feel like I maybe want to spend more time in places like Instagram than

00:29:35   Twitter. And I think that like, I think I need less debating in my life.

00:29:42   As a general statement, if people are looking at the scales and they think, "Oh, I have

00:29:47   Instagram on this one side and I have Twitter on the other side and you know

00:29:50   nothing about the person, it feels like a generally good recommendation would be

00:29:55   more Instagram less Twitter. Like that seems like it's almost universally

00:29:59   applicable for people. I get a lot of benefit out of Twitter which is why I'm not

00:30:03   like, I'm not saying like, "Oh I'm leaving Twitter" like it's not what I'm wanting to do

00:30:06   because I get a lot of information from there, I have a lot of incredibly

00:30:09   valuable communication with people there, but intermixed with that is the debating

00:30:17   the stuff that makes my blood boil,

00:30:19   like the things that frustrate me,

00:30:20   the things that will last with me for the afternoon

00:30:24   because I can't get them out of my head.

00:30:25   And those things don't really exist on Instagram

00:30:28   where it's more just like nice stuff.

00:30:30   And I'm trying to find ways that I can put more stuff there

00:30:35   than I do in other places.

00:30:38   Like I'm trying to work out.

00:30:40   I've used really Instagram more of like a consumption,

00:30:44   but I feel like I want to contribute more

00:30:47   And I'm just trying, and again, it's like, and I'm not really sure what that is yet.

00:30:50   And I started using RSS again to get news.

00:30:54   Oh, RSS.

00:30:55   Yeah, I know.

00:30:56   But at the same time, I've not really pulled back on Twitter yet.

00:30:59   But I don't know if I want to.

00:31:00   I'm just in this like…

00:31:02   Yeah, you're in an exploratory mode.

00:31:04   And I don't really know what I'm looking for.

00:31:08   And I think that's what I'm going through here.

00:31:10   It's like with the yoga and the music and the Twitter, I don't know why I felt the need

00:31:14   to do all of these things. But I think there's a link there that I'm not seeing yet. Because

00:31:22   these feel like I'm maybe trying to reduce stresses or I'm trying to like increase pleasure.

00:31:32   Because the yoga is very, I feel good. Music is a nice thing. People like music. And I'm

00:31:38   I'm trying to like, pull Instagram forward because I tend to enjoy it most as a social

00:31:44   network like it feels like I'm in this mode right now of like, I'm trying to have a summer

00:31:49   of fun. I don't know what it is.

00:31:51   You don't need to know what it is. Like it's interesting to hear you say you just have

00:31:57   these activities that for some reason you feel like are sort of connected but you don't

00:32:01   exactly know why. And I think it's really important to have your antenna up for those

00:32:12   kind of feelings.

00:32:13   I think that's one of the bigger differences, is that for some reason I'm being more receptive.

00:32:21   Like the biggest challenge of being a human is like to know yourself. And this feels like,

00:32:28   here's a moment where you're trying to figure out what is going on.

00:32:32   And I don't know, like those periods can sometimes last a really long time.

00:32:37   Sometimes they last a really short time, but they always seem like they're worth,

00:32:40   at least to me anyway, they seem like they're worth just noticing and being

00:32:46   aware of, and maybe it goes nowhere.

00:32:48   Maybe like maybe it turns into something, but I don't know.

00:32:51   It's like sometimes I have the feeling like there's some different part of your

00:32:56   brain that's trying to talk to you in a way or, or different parts of your brain

00:33:01   are just trying out things and you're going to see like what happens, what

00:33:05   happens here.

00:33:06   I really do feel that way, especially with the fitness.

00:33:08   I think my body's trying to communicate something to me.

00:33:12   I know we're maybe getting a little bit high level at this point, but like, I feel

00:33:18   like it's kind of a situation of like, you've got to do something.

00:33:21   I also feel this is a place where language really falls down.

00:33:27   Like even just when I say like, "Oh, there's different parts of your brain is

00:33:29   trying to communicate with you," or you say like, "Your body's trying to communicate with you," right?

00:33:32   It makes it sound like you're breaking out the crystals.

00:33:34   Yeah, it does.

00:33:35   It totally makes you sound like you're breaking out the crystals.

00:33:37   And it doesn't help that I'm now doing yoga, right?

00:33:40   Like I'm a shaman now, like I've found my chi.

00:33:43   Like, it's like, "Oh, now look at him."

00:33:46   Yeah.

00:33:47   It's like you and me, Myke, "Cortex Road Trip, Sedona, Arizona,

00:33:52   and we're going to sit in the vortex and meditate."

00:33:56   This is an area where I wouldn't exactly say

00:34:01   that I've changed my mind,

00:34:04   'cause I think all the vortex crystal stuff is nonsense.

00:34:07   It's obviously nonsense.

00:34:09   But that doesn't mean that people aren't trying

00:34:12   to get at something which isn't nonsense,

00:34:15   even if there's a whole bunch on the top.

00:34:18   And that's why you can end up using words like,

00:34:20   "I'm trying to listen to my body while I do yoga."

00:34:23   And you sound so loopy,

00:34:26   but there's no real better way

00:34:29   to try to express that feeling.

00:34:32   That's why I was using words like,

00:34:35   you have your antenna up,

00:34:36   and you're just being receptive.

00:34:40   And I always feel like I go through this

00:34:43   pretty strongly every summer.

00:34:46   Like, I don't know what it is,

00:34:47   but this is like the bubbling time in the brain,

00:34:50   and I'm trying to pay attention

00:34:53   and be aware of these things.

00:34:56   But it's very hard to articulate,

00:34:57   because you often don't know what it is.

00:35:00   And like, with this, it's like,

00:35:03   oh, my yoga is connected to my Instagram in some way,

00:35:07   but I don't know what that way is really.

00:35:10   And I just feel like they're connected,

00:35:12   and I'm going to let my brain run with it for a while while I try to sort it out.

00:35:15   It's like I feel like there is some kind of link in the year of adulting to this where

00:35:19   I'm trying to be a grown up in that I'm listening to myself, right? That like there

00:35:28   is this feeling of like now I've completed all of these things which are important to

00:35:33   me, you know, like I'm in the relationship I want to be in now, you know, like my life

00:35:39   is in a situation where I'm pretty happy with it, that I am at the same time now trying to

00:35:46   pay attention to me. I've got all of this stuff that I want in my life, I've achieved

00:35:51   these things that I'm proud of, I now don't want to lose them. Maybe it's a kind of stabilizing,

00:35:58   yeah, like a bunch of these things might fall under that category of stabilizing,

00:36:07   you know, less like with the Twitter, less highs and less lows and a more stable part.

00:36:14   I don't know. People change over time and you just I think I think it's so important to be

00:36:24   cognizant of that and it's so easy to

00:36:30   It's so easy to overthink of yourself in this static way and to not have antenna up for

00:36:39   "I feel like my brain's trying to send a message" or "my body's trying to send a message

00:36:43   and something needs to change." It's a very delicate feeling that you can lose if you think

00:36:52   of yourself as too static and yeah, going through. Especially the year of adulting,

00:36:59   Like it's a big deal, like it's a big change, you know, getting married and becoming an

00:37:06   adult in various ways.

00:37:09   And so yeah, I can easily see that you have some stuff bubbling around and I don't know,

00:37:16   maybe it's stabilization, maybe it's something else.

00:37:19   It's very interesting to hear.

00:37:22   Is there anything else or are those like the main bullet points for you?

00:37:25   Those are the main things that I've noticed right now.

00:37:27   Hmm.

00:37:28   And I, but I feel like if I, you know, I feel like I keep, I'm just going to keep tugging

00:37:32   on these threads and see where they end up taking me.

00:37:35   I'm just noticing that there's some stuff, there's some stuff going on.

00:37:39   I like the idea of you doing yoga and your practitioner asking, what is on your mind

00:37:46   right now, Myke, as you're doing a yoga position, you know, floating in the air, legs crossed.

00:37:51   Yep.

00:37:52   That's how it works.

00:37:53   RSS. RSS is what's on my mind.

00:37:58   I need syndication, but need it to be really simple. Otherwise, why would I do it?

00:38:07   This episode of Cortex is brought to you by WeTransfer. You're on the internet, you've

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00:39:21   I'm not the only one who's going on a little vision quest right now though.

00:39:26   What are you talking about? What are you talking about Myke?

00:39:28   I watched your YouTube video.

00:39:30   I don't, I don't, I don't, what?

00:39:31   Great, great in the woods.

00:39:33   That's my second channel. Nobody, nobody's supposed to watch the second channel.

00:39:37   So you are, um, you're taking a break from the internet. This is not a new thing.

00:39:42   No.

00:39:43   You've done this before. We've spoken about it before on this show.

00:39:45   We've spoken about it before.

00:39:47   Um, so I think this is a huge, this is a huge topic to get into.

00:39:55   Yeah.

00:39:56   I don't even really know where to begin with it.

00:39:58   And I think part of the problem is I don't even know if you know why you're

00:40:03   doing it, like you're feeling a certain way, but it feels like from listening to

00:40:07   your kind of preamble of it all, which I recommend people go and watch that video.

00:40:13   It was, it's nice.

00:40:14   It's a nice video and it's very thought-provoking.

00:40:17   (laughing)

00:40:18   - That's very kind of you to say.

00:40:20   It's the result of me trying not to say everything

00:40:24   in the world about this topic,

00:40:25   and I feel like ending up with some random thoughts

00:40:29   on this topic, but...

00:40:31   I totally agree.

00:40:36   I find this whole thing that I'm putting for now

00:40:41   under the banner of attention

00:40:43   and trying to pay attention and focus on things.

00:40:47   Like that is without a doubt this top bullet point.

00:40:51   It's a thing that I've become aware of.

00:40:54   But I find this topic very hard to talk about

00:40:56   because I have my antenna up on this.

00:41:01   And I've actually, like the project in my OmniFocus,

00:41:06   which is related to this, I started back in January.

00:41:08   Like I've been thinking about this for a long time

00:41:11   and mulling over it.

00:41:12   And I feel like this topic touches on everything.

00:41:17   Like it touches on so many things

00:41:22   that I have a hard time knowing how to talk about it.

00:41:27   And I made that video of me like walking in the woods

00:41:31   and just sort of talking because I felt really gripped

00:41:35   to try to make something, anything that was under 1500 words

00:41:40   you know, under 1500 words that was just at least broaching the topic a little bit.

00:41:45   But yeah, like, that's why I'm very sympathetic to your yoga RSS exploration, because I'm doing

00:41:56   the same thing right now with my relationship to, again, not even the internet, but like very

00:42:03   particular subsystems of the internet and I don't exactly know where I am but I do know

00:42:12   this feels very different from the other times I've done this in the past but I don't I wish

00:42:21   I had a clear thesis point on this topic but I really I really don't right now.

00:42:26   So what is the practicalities of this?

00:42:29   - Okay, so if I can break it down into defined problem

00:42:34   and current actions in the smallest way possible,

00:42:38   it would be this.

00:42:40   Defined problem in a way that feels different.

00:42:44   I think that my ability to focus and my attention span

00:42:49   has frayed over like the last year or eight months.

00:42:54   the last year or 18 months

00:42:58   in a way that feels different from before.

00:43:02   And the action plan is,

00:43:06   I'm trying to eliminate a bunch of the stuff

00:43:11   on the internet that uses particular tactics

00:43:16   to get you to pay attention.

00:43:20   - You're staying away from algorithms.

00:43:23   Yeah, that's like a broad way to put it.

00:43:25   Staying away from algorithms.

00:43:27   I think two other defining characteristics

00:43:32   are things that never end.

00:43:35   Web pages that scroll infinitely.

00:43:37   Like there's always more on Reddit.

00:43:38   - So like that algorithm goes with that, right?

00:43:40   Like if you keep refreshing Twitter,

00:43:42   they'll keep serving stuff to you.

00:43:43   Even if there's nothing there,

00:43:44   they'll just keep finding things for you.

00:43:46   - Yeah, but I think that an infinite source of content

00:43:51   is an interesting addition that's different.

00:43:55   And for me, it's like,

00:43:57   I try to think about what are the things

00:44:00   that to me are not problems.

00:44:02   And so it's like, I don't spend a lot of time on Netflix

00:44:05   because the Netflix catalog of things

00:44:07   I'm interested in watching is actually pretty small, right?

00:44:10   But it's not like, man, I'm blowing my whole life

00:44:12   on Netflix because it's constrained.

00:44:17   So infinite content is one of those things.

00:44:20   and then systems that have algorithms plus randomness in them.

00:44:30   I think those are a lot of the key characteristics of stuff that is designed to keep your attention

00:44:41   focused on them.

00:44:43   [breathing in and out]

00:44:46   I don't know, like,

00:44:47   I'm cons--

00:44:51   And this is where, like with the talking about yoga,

00:44:54   you can end up sounding like you're a guru

00:44:57   with pockets full of crystals.

00:45:00   I haven't found like the correct way to talk about this

00:45:03   that doesn't make the conversation end up veering

00:45:06   in into ways where it's like, oh no, it feels like,

00:45:10   Either like crazy conspiracy land or I don't know,

00:45:15   like personal failings.

00:45:18   I view a lot of these kind of systems

00:45:22   as intentionally designed to have an effect on people.

00:45:27   And they do have an effect on people.

00:45:31   But it's hard to end up having that conversation

00:45:33   that doesn't swing one of two ways,

00:45:35   which is like you have personal failings

00:45:38   because you are not able to manage these systems

00:45:40   and lots of people seem just fine,

00:45:42   even though I'm not super convinced

00:45:43   that lots of people are just fine.

00:45:45   And it's hard not to have the conversation

00:45:47   veer the other way, which is like,

00:45:49   do you think all of these companies

00:45:51   are trying to control everybody in the whole world?

00:45:53   Like, I don't know, it's just this delicate conversation.

00:45:58   And like when you talk about designing an algorithm

00:46:04   to affect behavior change in people,

00:46:09   it's hard to talk about that just as that thing

00:46:14   without the conversation veering in weird ways

00:46:17   of like, what are the intents of these companies?

00:46:20   Are they malicious?

00:46:21   I'm like, I'm not super interested in that.

00:46:25   It's just like, this is a thing that exists in the world.

00:46:28   And I've kind of come to think of it as

00:46:37   almost as a natural part of the digital world,

00:46:41   that there's no alternate universe

00:46:47   where we wouldn't eventually get to a place

00:46:49   where with digital technology,

00:46:52   you would have systems that are really good

00:46:54   at trying to hold your attention.

00:46:55   I feel like that's almost a natural outcome

00:46:58   of technological progress.

00:47:01   So like, I'm not super interested

00:47:04   in particular companies in some ways.

00:47:06   Like I'm interested in this problem like in the abstract,

00:47:10   but I don't know.

00:47:11   I think as you can hear there,

00:47:12   like I'm having a hard time formulating this

00:47:15   in a concise way.

00:47:17   And I really do feel like it touches on

00:47:20   just so many different things.

00:47:23   And what I personally find interesting is

00:47:28   based on the feedback I've gotten from people I know

00:47:33   in my real life,

00:47:34   this resonates with a lot of people very strongly, but often strongly in different ways.

00:47:44   I'm glad you said that because I was just about to say something. I understand what

00:47:48   you're going through, I think. I think I can understand it, but I don't agree with all

00:47:52   of it.

00:47:53   So tell me what you are disagreeing with or like just tell me what you're thinking.

00:47:57   Okay, so I think one of the biggest problems with talking about this is like you're going

00:48:04   through a thing and kind of asking people or urging people to join you, but yet you

00:48:09   don't even really know why you're doing it.

00:48:11   Yeah, yeah.

00:48:12   I think that is inherently there is a problem in that because you bring it up in your little

00:48:18   walking video, and I think it's good to reiterate here, that like this stuff happens all the

00:48:24   time. And I'm pleased you brought it up because it's a very obvious argument to make, right, that

00:48:29   when people started reading books, it's like, oh, they just read books and you start watching TV,

00:48:35   nobody reads books anymore. Right. And that like this move to the Internet is kind of like, oh,

00:48:40   well, nobody reads books anymore. But it's like, well, this is just the march of time.

00:48:44   And it isn't necessarily fair to say that what we're in right now is worse.

00:48:51   because every generation before us has said that about the generation that was before it.

00:48:57   Like, I understand that you're feeling a personal pull, but I don't know if we can categorically

00:49:04   like claim that the shortness of contents, like this bite-sized content, which is probably the

00:49:13   issue, you know, tweets and quick videos and whatever, is contributing to the detention

00:49:18   attention span problem, which I can understand completely, right?

00:49:21   Like people's attention spans are changing because content is consumed much faster.

00:49:26   But I don't know if we can categorically say that's worse for humanity.

00:49:31   It might be bad for you.

00:49:36   But I don't know if you can, if we can't say that, we can't say it, we can have an

00:49:41   opinion about it, but we can't claim it.

00:49:43   Right. And I'm not saying you're doing that.

00:49:47   But I think it's easy to draw that conclusion from what you're trying to say.

00:49:52   Yeah, so like, even in there, there's already a million, a million doors that are open in these different directions.

00:49:58   This is huge. Like what you are trying to broach upon is a massive, massive subject.

00:50:02   Yeah. So I mean, there's a few things there. And one of the things I was trying really hard not to do in that little video is,

00:50:15   is actually focus on the shortness of things.

00:50:18   Like, here's a tiny bit of information, right?

00:50:20   Here's a tweet.

00:50:22   I don't think that stuff is good.

00:50:26   I do think it has this effect on people's attention.

00:50:31   But there is this paradox,

00:50:33   which is you also have behavior

00:50:35   where people can watch very long YouTube videos

00:50:40   or be engaged in extremely long media at the same time.

00:50:45   So it's like, it's overly simple to say like,

00:50:49   oh, people's attention spans are super short

00:50:51   and so they can only pay attention

00:50:53   to short tiny bits of information.

00:50:56   It's more like in a world where this stuff is so present,

00:51:01   I think it changes the state of your brain.

00:51:07   And like, I agree in theory that it's not necessary

00:51:12   in theory that it's not necessarily bad.

00:51:17   - It could be, but we just don't know.

00:51:20   - Yeah, I personally don't think it's good,

00:51:25   but a whole other door, here's an example

00:51:28   which some people will relate to this example

00:51:31   and some people won't.

00:51:32   But if you relate, you'll probably relate very strongly.

00:51:35   So here's the thing that I hear from a bunch of people.

00:51:37   They will watch the same YouTube videos

00:51:42   over and over again.

00:51:45   So someone will have watched like a video series

00:51:48   about something and they'll in moments confess

00:51:52   that they've watched it like 30 times.

00:51:55   - Yeah, I have a bunch of stuff like that.

00:51:57   - I have a bunch of stuff like that too.

00:52:00   And it's, this is a different behavior.

00:52:04   Like I feel like, yes, I used to have media that I liked,

00:52:08   but there was never any media

00:52:11   throughout the entirety of my life except when I was a baby that I would watch on loop

00:52:17   like this.

00:52:18   How many times have you read the Lord of the Rings?

00:52:21   In my whole life I'm gonna say three.

00:52:26   I just think like I understand what you're saying with this and I'm not letting you

00:52:30   explain it enough I know that but-

00:52:31   No no no no like I don't care like just go just talk.

00:52:34   technology has changed. Like, you may have wanted to watch X cartoon a billion times,

00:52:42   but you just couldn't. Like, if it was available to you, where you could just watch it on loop,

00:52:47   you would. Like, when I was a kid, and like I noticed from when my brother was a kid too,

00:52:53   you'd watch the same cartoons many, many times. Like, I lost count of the amount of times

00:52:58   I saw Pinocchio because it was my little brother's favorite movie.

00:53:01   Yeah, no. But I think there's a reason that you do that as a child.

00:53:07   I think the reason is because people will do whatever you ask them to when you're a child.

00:53:10   Right, like if the child will be happy watching Pinocchio for the 16th time,

00:53:15   then that's the thing that he'll watch today if he's gonna watch something.

00:53:18   Yeah, well I mean I guess that's a different thing, which is like a parent just wants like,

00:53:22   "Please, what will keep you pacified?"

00:53:23   Right, because that's our base human desire, but like as we grow up as adults,

00:53:26   like maybe your partner doesn't want to watch Pinocchio for the 16th time, but you do.

00:53:31   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:53:32   What I was gonna say is like,

00:53:38   I've read some things that like part of the reason

00:53:41   that children in particular do watch stuff on Superloop

00:53:44   is it's like the same reason that babies will engage

00:53:48   in the same behavior over and over again.

00:53:49   That there's, it's part of a process of learning

00:53:52   about the world is why like,

00:53:54   loopification is incredibly intense in younger children.

00:53:59   And I know I did the same thing when I was a kid,

00:54:03   but then I feel like there's this vast desert of my life

00:54:05   where there was really no lupification.

00:54:07   And now it feels like, oh, it's come back in some examples.

00:54:13   And it's like, oh, this familiar thing

00:54:18   I just have on tap at any moment.

00:54:21   And yes, like, I'm gonna watch this same thing on YouTube

00:54:26   that's 45 minutes long of like a discussion of a movie

00:54:30   I haven't even watched

00:54:31   and I'm gonna watch it for the 10th time.

00:54:32   It's like, why am I even doing this?

00:54:34   Like, I don't understand.

00:54:35   I don't even feel like I'm getting a lot out of it,

00:54:39   but it's a loop that's just like a familiar loop.

00:54:43   I just mentioned that as just like, you know,

00:54:46   you're feeling out these various things.

00:54:49   This to me is one of these pieces

00:54:51   where I don't have like a clear thesis

00:54:54   on this loopification,

00:54:56   but this is just something that I'm aware of.

00:54:59   And when I talk to other people about it,

00:55:02   it seems like it's a general consensus

00:55:03   that this is a behavior that has increased over time,

00:55:06   that feels like it's sort of a new behavior.

00:55:10   And I only raised it simply to be on the opposite side

00:55:13   of I'm not trying to make the argument that like,

00:55:16   boy, people can only consume tiny bits of content.

00:55:19   It's more like tininess is one part of it,

00:55:25   but an intense desire for sameness and repetition

00:55:30   is the other part of it.

00:55:34   - Comfort.

00:55:35   - Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that.

00:55:38   But what gets to the more core part of my concern

00:55:44   is when algorithms are designed to take advantage of that.

00:55:51   Is this whole thing a result of a concern of closed-mindedness?

00:55:59   Not really.

00:56:01   Like, on my bullet point list of things I'm worried about,

00:56:04   I would put closed-mindedness basically near the bottom.

00:56:08   I don't...

00:56:10   I'm not super concerned about that as a topic at all.

00:56:13   Every time I feel like I'm pulling on something, it's wrong.

00:56:16   This is part of the issue of what's going on here.

00:56:20   I really don't know if you, and I think you agree to this,

00:56:23   I don't think you know why this is happening,

00:56:25   why you're doing this.

00:56:26   I don't really feel like your thesis is tight.

00:56:29   - No, no, I 100% agree.

00:56:33   I 100% agree.

00:56:34   And that's part of why, to get to a part that is clear,

00:56:39   is my action points of, before people start to worry,

00:56:45   'cause I'm still producing stuff,

00:56:48   Like I'm still gonna make podcasts and videos.

00:56:50   - Pin in that for a second,

00:56:51   'cause I have some questions about that, but carry on.

00:56:54   - I'm still gonna be making podcasts and videos,

00:56:56   but I'm not going to go on Reddit,

00:57:01   and I haven't been going on Reddit now

00:57:03   to see what any of the comments and reactions are

00:57:06   to those videos.

00:57:08   And I'm not going on Twitter,

00:57:11   and I'm not going on Instagram,

00:57:16   and the big ones for me are just like,

00:57:18   not spending time on Reddit in general,

00:57:21   reading comment threads and not spending time on hacker news.

00:57:25   Like those are the big problems for me.

00:57:26   Like that's my familiar loop is bouncing back and forth

00:57:30   between these two places that have discussion threads

00:57:32   and like finding myself reading discussion threads

00:57:35   on the same topics that I've read like a hundred times.

00:57:39   And I don't know why I'm really doing this.

00:57:42   It doesn't feel like a good way to spend my time.

00:57:45   It feels more like a trap, like an attention trap

00:57:50   that my brain slid into without really noticing.

00:57:55   - What's actually happening and what you're fighting against

00:57:59   is you feel like you can't stay focused anymore.

00:58:03   - Yeah, yeah, it's much harder to stay focused.

00:58:06   So here's a good example.

00:58:09   Here's one of the things that I've had my antenna up towards

00:58:13   that led me into this where I thought like,

00:58:15   oh, I'm sort of misidentifying a problem.

00:58:18   But I've been having conversations with people

00:58:20   over the last year where I've been saying things like,

00:58:23   boy, I think that as I get older,

00:58:25   disruptions are more disruptive.

00:58:28   And I think like, I'm just not as good

00:58:29   at handling disruptions as I used to be.

00:58:33   And it's like, oh, I kind of noticed

00:58:36   that this was a thing that was on my mind.

00:58:40   And mulling that over for a long time,

00:58:43   it's like, no, I think it's actually clear that it's,

00:58:47   I'm just not as good at really knuckling down

00:58:51   and focusing and paying attention.

00:58:54   Like it's not like, the disruptions are no different,

00:58:58   but you're just like, I need to think about this

00:59:00   from a different angle.

00:59:02   Like this feels like, oh, this is the more true angle

00:59:06   than just feeling like, ah, as I've gotten older,

00:59:08   I find disruptions more disruptive.

00:59:11   So you're totally right.

00:59:12   I don't know exactly what I'm aiming for.

00:59:16   Other than to say, I think I've identified some things

00:59:21   that are not good for brains to be exposed to,

00:59:26   and I wanna have a really long stretch

00:59:31   of stepping away from those things.

00:59:34   Because I really feel like a big break

00:59:39   is a kind of rewiring of the brain.

00:59:44   In the same way that the huge life transition for me

00:59:50   was going from high school to college.

00:59:55   And I was extremely cognizant of that summer in between

01:00:00   and the very beginning time of college

01:00:01   as like, this is a time that you need to rewire your brain.

01:00:06   And you don't know what that is,

01:00:10   but this is a time to be aware of that.

01:00:12   And that's kind of what I feel like I'm trying to create now

01:00:15   is space for that to remove a lot

01:00:20   of default action behaviors of like,

01:00:25   here's a moment where I don't know what I'm gonna do.

01:00:27   What am I gonna do?

01:00:28   Oh, I'm gonna just like,

01:00:30   What are people talking about on Twitter?

01:00:31   Or what have people posted on Instagram?

01:00:33   Or what's the argument over here on Hacker News?

01:00:36   I'm trying to remove those as the default action behaviors

01:00:41   because I've found that those default action behaviors

01:00:46   have spread a lot.

01:00:49   And I really think that has an effect

01:00:52   of rewiring your brain to be always looking

01:00:57   for this easier path into distraction in the moment.

01:01:02   OK, so you're leading towards an argument that I don't like,

01:01:10   and I don't think you're trying to make, but it trends towards it.

01:01:13   And I want to couple this up with a specific point that you made in your video

01:01:17   where you single you target podcasts as a as an issue,

01:01:21   which I take offense to for multiple reasons, right?

01:01:25   Obviously a big one of those is this what I do, right?

01:01:29   So like you specifically called out podcasts as a problem of filling time, right?

01:01:35   Where people would be traveling, people would be in a shower,

01:01:38   they'd be taking in information or just spending time to think,

01:01:41   and they fill that with podcasts instead.

01:01:42   Now, what I don't like about this, aside from the fact that I feel personally attacked,

01:01:49   is I feel like-

01:01:52   I'm destroying your bottom line, and my bottom line too.

01:01:55   Look at me cutting off both of our feet.

01:01:57   And again we're going to come back to that part in a second as well.

01:02:00   But I feel like you're trending towards the argument of,

01:02:04   "Oh, why can't we just be bored? Nobody allows boredom anymore."

01:02:08   Which is an argument that I really don't like.

01:02:11   That there is this feeling of,

01:02:14   "Nobody wants to be bored anymore,"

01:02:17   so they fill it with things like YouTube and podcasts and video games and stuff like that.

01:02:21   stuff like that. And I don't like that because people don't like boredom. It's like a thing.

01:02:27   The word elicits in people a response which is negative. Boredom. No one wants to be bored.

01:02:32   So people fill their time with stuff like podcasts. And one of the other issues that

01:02:37   I have with that statement is like the podcasts, they are a long activity typically. And it

01:02:44   doesn't line up with the focus and attention thing. It is like a separate line, which I

01:02:50   I know you've gone down and you go down about like,

01:02:52   then I don't have any time to think,

01:02:54   but like they feel like separate things.

01:02:57   - Yeah, so like I didn't do a good job

01:02:58   of explaining this in the video.

01:03:00   So let's, like I think this is,

01:03:02   I'm really glad to talk about this

01:03:04   'cause there's a couple points here.

01:03:06   The first point is the boredom thing,

01:03:09   I have talked about that in the past

01:03:12   as like I do think it's an important quality,

01:03:15   but I'm trying to use the word space more

01:03:19   Because boredom has, like, it has become this, like,

01:03:23   I don't know, almost like corporate idea.

01:03:26   Like, I don't know.

01:03:26   It has become this buzzword in creative circles

01:03:31   that I think has made it, like, lose all of its meaning.

01:03:38   Where, yeah, like, boredom isn't the goal

01:03:43   because boredom is no good, right?

01:03:47   Nobody likes it.

01:03:48   And the only reason you talk about boredom

01:03:50   is boredom as a motivating factor to absolve the boredom,

01:03:55   or to do something else that makes you no longer bored.

01:04:00   And so I'm with you.

01:04:03   I don't really like those arguments,

01:04:06   but I do think that there is some kind of truth to it.

01:04:10   And I particularly think of this

01:04:14   if you are a creative professional.

01:04:18   Like if you make media of any kind that people are going to consume, you can't be consuming

01:04:27   stuff yourself all the time.

01:04:29   I don't know if I agree with you.

01:04:31   Okay, tell me why.

01:04:32   I think that my consumption of other creative work makes my creative work better.

01:04:38   I feel like I take inspiration from people.

01:04:40   I feel like I'm jealous of how good people are and it forces me to try and be better.

01:04:46   I understand the idea of allowing yourself to have time for ideas. I totally get that.

01:04:53   I 100% get that. But I don't think that that needs to be at the expense of consumption.

01:05:00   I feel like it can be important for people to allow themselves time to think. And the

01:05:06   podcast in the shower, I've done that for years. I'm surprised that this is a new thing

01:05:10   that you seem to have discovered that people do this. But I do understand that. I understand

01:05:14   that. It was one of the things that I always liked and do like about swimming. Because

01:05:20   when I swim, all I have is my own thoughts. So I think it can be important for people

01:05:26   to advocate, and I think it could be good for you to advocate that people allow for

01:05:32   time when they have no distractions and nothing is going on. But I don't think that needs

01:05:40   to be at the expense of consumption of content. And I'm not just talking about podcasts anymore.

01:05:45   Like I'm not trying to be self-serving. Like YouTube videos are a big thing. And like,

01:05:49   I was surprised that you did single-handedly just call out podcasting and not YouTube,

01:05:54   right? And that frustrated me because it's like podcasts are a problem, not our good friend,

01:06:01   Mr. YouTube. He's good over there. Keep watching those videos. So that was why one of the reasons,

01:06:07   And again, it's like, I am personally attacked in this.

01:06:09   You are as well, which is like, we still need to get to that point and we will.

01:06:15   But like, you know, I feel like.

01:06:17   My consumption of media makes me better at what I do,

01:06:23   as well as it is important for me to allow time

01:06:27   to percolate on things on my own.

01:06:29   But I don't think that creative people.

01:06:35   should strip out consumption. I don't think that that's the right, I don't think it's the right

01:06:39   thing to do. It might be right for you, I believe ultimately it's not right for you and I think that

01:06:45   you will, well one I do think that you will not stay this way forever. I think that this is a

01:06:50   valuable experience for you if you're feeling this way you should 100% explore these feelings.

01:06:54   But by the time this experiment ends, I think that you will come back to many of these things

01:07:01   just with different eyes and maybe you'll come back to it differently like you did last time.

01:07:06   Yeah, that's, I mean, that is my ultimate desire, right, is to come back to this in a different way.

01:07:12   Yeah, I don't envision a future where I never comment on the Reddit, on the things that I post,

01:07:19   because I love that. Like, that's honestly one of my favorite parts of making things for the internet.

01:07:24   And I think it's valuable. It's very valuable, right? Like, and I really,

01:07:29   And again, I think that you need to do a better job in communicating this when you're talking

01:07:34   about these things.

01:07:36   This stuff is valuable to creators.

01:07:39   Feedback from audiences is what makes online creativity, is what makes online creative

01:07:44   projects so good, is that there is a direct feedback model, which there is not for, or

01:07:50   hasn't been really, it's starting to happen more for more traditional media.

01:07:53   Yeah, but there really isn't.

01:07:55   But I know that Cortex is good because we listen to what people say and try and make

01:08:02   the show better based on their feedback where we believe it works.

01:08:05   Yeah, I'm totally with you there.

01:08:09   And I've always said for everything that I do, if you don't, after I post a podcast

01:08:14   or post a video, go to the Reddit and at least read or participate in the discussion.

01:08:20   I think you're missing out on the big part of,

01:08:23   like, to sound grandiose,

01:08:26   I think you're missing out on a big part

01:08:27   of what it is that I do,

01:08:29   because to me, the online component,

01:08:31   it is a big part of that,

01:08:33   and I think it's a big important part of that.

01:08:35   So yeah, like, I'm not,

01:08:37   I don't see a future where I'm like,

01:08:38   this internet thing, I'm outta here.

01:08:40   And it's also, I'm trying very hard to ride this fine line

01:08:45   of not being like a technological grump

01:08:47   who doesn't like the internet.

01:08:50   I'm just concerned about particular parts of it.

01:08:55   And the thing that I was trying to explain,

01:08:58   okay, let me back up a step,

01:09:02   but don't let me get away from podcasts,

01:09:04   but I wanna try to like,

01:09:05   explain the core. - Oh, I won't.

01:09:06   We're coming back to that.

01:09:07   We're not leaving this discussion

01:09:09   without addressing that point more clearly.

01:09:11   - Yeah, yeah, but like, don't, you know,

01:09:12   it's so easy in these conversations where I was like,

01:09:14   it whoosh, like watch this river of conversation flow,

01:09:17   then where are we?

01:09:18   I have it written down on a piece of paper in front of me, Gray.

01:09:20   We're not getting away from it.

01:09:21   Excellent.

01:09:22   Okay.

01:09:22   You underlined podcast twice there.

01:09:24   I have already.

01:09:26   Okay.

01:09:28   I think that the clearest comparison that I can make about like, what is it that I'm

01:09:35   concerned about is what has happened with regard to the industry of food?

01:09:45   where it's like, some food is good for you,

01:09:48   some food is bad for you.

01:09:50   But what has been a big deal over the past few years,

01:09:55   and it's totally made the news a bunch of times,

01:09:57   this isn't like a secret or anything,

01:09:59   but it's become clear how intentionally

01:10:04   food companies, some of them,

01:10:08   are not just making food for you to eat,

01:10:13   But they are doing experiments in laboratories

01:10:17   where they're adjusting the exact mouthfeel of the food

01:10:20   and the ratios of sugar, salt, and other ingredients.

01:10:23   And the explicit goal is how much of this food

01:10:28   will a person eat?

01:10:30   And what can we do experimentally

01:10:34   to make this person eat more with the presentation

01:10:38   or the contents of the food?

01:10:42   And I think that's a really different thing

01:10:47   to then go into a supermarket where,

01:10:50   let's just say like, oh, half of this is food

01:10:53   in the way that you think of it,

01:10:55   but half of it has been very intentionally engineered

01:11:00   to produce a particular physiological result in you.

01:11:05   And it's kind of hard to talk about that

01:11:09   without sounding like you're against food

01:11:11   where like food is super addictive.

01:11:14   And like an addictive is a word

01:11:15   that I think is a terrible word in these situations.

01:11:19   It's like a word I really try to avoid

01:11:21   'cause I just don't think it's helpful.

01:11:22   But I view the internet as that in some way

01:11:25   where it's like, okay, a lot of this is awesome,

01:11:29   but some of this is experimentally engineered

01:11:34   to change your behavior in certain ways.

01:11:38   And that means changing your brain in certain ways.

01:11:43   And I, like the big concern here is it means

01:11:48   over a long period, changing your brain to be

01:11:52   more receptive to certain kinds of inputs,

01:11:56   more receptive to topic switching,

01:12:00   more receptive to like multitasking.

01:12:04   And like maybe sometimes that means short content,

01:12:08   Maybe sometimes that means long content.

01:12:10   It also means different things

01:12:13   for different types of brains.

01:12:15   Like, I don't know.

01:12:16   This is very hard to say,

01:12:18   but like, so I'll just say this in a very general way.

01:12:20   But it's also very different when you've had conversations

01:12:25   with people working on these systems

01:12:27   who make it clear that that is their explicit goal.

01:12:30   Where they're like, "Oh yeah, what we're trying to do

01:12:33   is make sure that like you never leave."

01:12:35   And if you do leave, then you come back as soon as possible.

01:12:39   And we run experiments on hundreds of thousands of people

01:12:42   to achieve that result.

01:12:43   And we know that by tweaking these variables

01:12:45   for these kinds of people,

01:12:47   we can increase the response rate or the return rate

01:12:50   by five or 10% across an average day.

01:12:53   And it's like, man, this stuff works.

01:12:57   Like it really does work

01:12:58   and it's really intentionally engineered.

01:13:02   And just as I think it's easy for people to get swept up

01:13:07   in a world of food, which is like deceptive,

01:13:17   and then changes their ability to even enjoy

01:13:22   or eat other kinds of food,

01:13:24   or sort of changes their relationship with food,

01:13:27   I think some of these parts of the internet

01:13:29   can basically change your relationship

01:13:33   with information or content consumption.

01:13:37   And so this brings me to podcasts

01:13:42   because the reason I mention them

01:13:45   and I didn't do a good job of explaining this in the video

01:13:48   is I feel like podcasts for the most part

01:13:53   don't exist in this intentionally engineered world.

01:13:58   podcasts are based on RSS, which is a great technology

01:14:03   because you kind of can't use it in this way.

01:14:06   It's like people just produce stuff and it's out there.

01:14:08   - People are trying, but they're mostly failing

01:14:10   to create a system which is algorithmically based.

01:14:13   - Yeah, and this is why, listeners,

01:14:16   if you listen to podcasts from people in the tech world,

01:14:20   it may seem strange, sometimes it's like real big pushback

01:14:23   to large players entering this field, but this is why,

01:14:26   because none of us want to end up in a world

01:14:29   where podcasts are algorithmically served up to you.

01:14:33   Like nobody really enjoys that.

01:14:35   And it's like, oh, what happened to blogs

01:14:38   like after algorithms came?

01:14:39   It's like, oh, they were destroyed.

01:14:40   That's what happened.

01:14:41   But like, as we discuss it right now,

01:14:45   the podcast world is mostly free of that.

01:14:48   And I don't think it made it into the final video,

01:14:52   so I'm sorry, Myke.

01:14:53   But I did have a part where I said like,

01:14:55   I totally love podcasts.

01:14:59   Like I've always loved Audio Medium,

01:15:01   and it's also why I do two podcasts,

01:15:05   'cause I just think,

01:15:07   especially this kind of conversational format,

01:15:09   I think there's something truly unique about it

01:15:12   in the media world.

01:15:15   - I think they're good for people.

01:15:16   - Yeah.

01:15:17   - I think it's good for people

01:15:18   because I see the response that people have

01:15:22   when I get to meet people who listen to these shows,

01:15:25   and they seem to have a net positive impact on someone's life.

01:15:29   And my belief in this is based upon conversa-

01:15:32   I believe that conversational podcasts are ultimately good for the soul.

01:15:36   Because every time as a human being, you hear a conversation,

01:15:41   you hear a conversation, you hear the entire thing.

01:15:45   By and large, it's because you are involved in that conversation.

01:15:49   Right. That's when you hear conversations, because you're having them

01:15:53   or you're a part of a group that's having one.

01:15:55   So podcasts like ours, there are people talking to each other.

01:16:00   I think tricks your brain into feeling like you're a part of that conversation,

01:16:04   which is a good thing.

01:16:05   You're a part of something that's happening.

01:16:07   You're listening to it.

01:16:08   And that is why podcast listeners feel emotionally connected to podcasters,

01:16:14   because typically when you're a part of a conversation, it's people you know.

01:16:19   It's people that you have an emotional connection to.

01:16:22   So I think that they are ultimately good for people.

01:16:26   I understand your point of like filling

01:16:29   every waking moment with them

01:16:31   and that maybe people need to have a balance.

01:16:34   But I think that when you stack up podcasts

01:16:38   against algorithmically served mediums,

01:16:41   you are doing a disservice to the medium by doing that,

01:16:44   which is why it frustrated me.

01:16:46   - No, I understand.

01:16:47   And again, like this was a failure on my part

01:16:49   to communicate something

01:16:51   Because again, I just want to back up everything that you say there.

01:16:54   And like, you know, again, it's, uh, I think you can hear in our post WWDC

01:17:02   episode where we talk about meeting people like that, like that time is great.

01:17:08   And it's also, it's also, I don't know, it's, it's difficult to explain, but it's,

01:17:14   it's sort of hard on me because of how intensely I can see that like this show

01:17:20   in particular really affects change in people's lives,

01:17:24   even though it doesn't necessarily feel like

01:17:27   on any particular week, like any topic really matters.

01:17:30   But I know from being a listener,

01:17:32   it's like it's the listening over a length of time, right?

01:17:35   It's the conversation over a space of time

01:17:40   that has an effect.

01:17:41   So like, I totally agree,

01:17:42   like these things can be great net positives.

01:17:46   But what I was trying to articulate there,

01:17:50   And I use podcasts as a particular example, because, because this is a thing that I know resonates strongly with people when I talk about this topic is I think that the algorithmic parts of the internet fray your mind in this way to train you to always be looking for the easy thing to

01:18:19   consume and podcasts are able because they're audio only to end up filling this tremendous amount of other space in your life.

01:18:37   You can take them anywhere with you because you can do, again, I think it's one of the benefits, the great benefits of the medium is that you can be doing other things.

01:18:46   - Yeah, you can be doing other things.

01:18:48   Here's my core example, right,

01:18:51   where good podcast use case.

01:18:54   There's a dog, he needs to be walked.

01:18:58   Perfect podcast time.

01:19:01   And it's perfect podcast time in no small part

01:19:04   because walking a dog,

01:19:07   especially if you're in a place like London

01:19:09   and they're off the leash,

01:19:11   it's not a brainless activity.

01:19:13   You have to keep your eye on him,

01:19:16   make sure he's not eating things

01:19:17   he's not supposed to be doing.

01:19:18   You gotta manage the relationships

01:19:20   with other dogs in the park.

01:19:22   It requires you to pay just enough attention

01:19:24   that you can't really think about anything else,

01:19:28   but it's also not no attention.

01:19:30   So this is like, ah, what a perfect situation for podcasts.

01:19:33   Because then it's like, you can participate

01:19:36   in this conversation as a listener

01:19:37   in this really enjoyable way

01:19:39   while you're also doing something else.

01:19:40   It's like, that is like the biggest win case in my life,

01:19:45   or like you're commuting to work

01:19:47   and that's an awesome win case in your life.

01:19:49   But the thing that concerns me

01:19:53   is the behavior that happens over time is like,

01:19:55   well, but you don't stop listening

01:19:59   after the walk is finished,

01:20:02   or you don't stop listening after the drive is finished

01:20:06   and you think, oh, well, I'm just gonna finish this show.

01:20:10   And then the next one sort of rolls on

01:20:13   and you go, well, let me listen to this one a little bit.

01:20:15   And I think that thing of like letting it roll

01:20:20   through everything is a side effect of this main problem

01:20:26   of like brains and environments that teach them to expect,

01:20:32   like there's infinite content that will just come

01:20:35   and you should consume that content.

01:20:37   And so it's like a symptom that is being expressed

01:20:41   in a different domain than the domain that has caused the problem directly.

01:20:46   And that's why I find it really concerning is like, I noticed that behavior in myself.

01:20:52   I'm like, man, sometimes I just let these podcasts roll and it's like, it was interfering

01:21:00   with my ability to do other things.

01:21:01   And I mentioned the shower one because that to me, that to me was the real letting it

01:21:07   roll behavior of like, well, I need to take a shower now and I'm coming back to the

01:21:10   and I'm coming in from a walk, I was like,

01:21:12   "Well, I'm just gonna let this podcast

01:21:13   keep rolling through the shower."

01:21:16   And I know people have been doing this for a long time,

01:21:21   but listeners who have heard me talk for years know,

01:21:26   I've always been super careful about what do I let

01:21:30   into my life?

01:21:32   And the shower one really caught me off guard

01:21:36   of not even really noticing that I was doing it

01:21:40   in the first place.

01:21:42   And then having caught myself doing it,

01:21:47   I found it kind of shocking.

01:21:49   It's like, oh, I was not expecting this behavior at all.

01:21:52   But I don't lay that at the feet of like,

01:21:55   ah, this podcast app, right, with its damn algorithms.

01:21:59   Like I can't turn away because it's so engaging.

01:22:03   It's not that at all.

01:22:04   It's like, oh, I think my brain is expecting more content

01:22:09   expecting more content always, and its ability to direct itself and to change course from

01:22:19   like an easy consumption behavior into something else has been frayed. And I think that fraying

01:22:26   is a behavior change that has been intentionally created. Do you feel better at all, Myke?

01:22:32   I don't agree with you.

01:22:35   You know, because YouTube is worse for this.

01:22:38   Because YouTube has autoplay.

01:22:40   Like your podcast autoplay, that's the symptom of the app that you use.

01:22:45   And like you can turn that off.

01:22:47   I mean, you can turn off autoplay on YouTube as well.

01:22:49   But boy, boy, they want to make sure you can't find that setting.

01:22:52   Yeah, it's a very different situation, especially because the next show is a show you've chosen.

01:23:00   chosen to allow that in where YouTube it will give you whatever it wants to. And again,

01:23:07   all of this stuff is like, well, it's moderation is what you're looking for, but for whatever

01:23:13   reason you're only able to accomplish moderation after a drought, right? Like you have to remove

01:23:20   it all to allow you to get it in control, which is fine if that's the route that you

01:23:27   want to take but I just I I understand what you're saying but I think that you

01:23:33   unfairly pick podcasting as your thing to focus on and I think it could be

01:23:39   argued that YouTube is way worse and you should have focused on that because it

01:23:44   actually ladders into your other point more about there being an algorithm.

01:23:48   I don't disagree with you there that YouTube is the source of the problem if

01:23:55   If we imagine a universe that only has two things,

01:23:57   YouTube and podcasts, as I guess.

01:23:59   YouTube is the source of the problem,

01:24:01   and then it can create symptoms that express themselves

01:24:06   as well in the other universe, in addition to YouTube.

01:24:10   Again, there is another reason why I tried to mention

01:24:13   the podcast thing in particular is because,

01:24:15   at least when I talk to people,

01:24:17   there seems to be an age differential

01:24:20   about does podcasting resonate with you more strongly

01:24:25   or does YouTube resonate with you more strongly?

01:24:29   And my general observation is like,

01:24:33   YouTube resonates with you much more strongly

01:24:35   if you're younger and podcasts resonate

01:24:36   much more strongly with you if you are older.

01:24:39   And I think that's the people for whom the podcasts

01:24:44   resonate for tend to be more aware of like,

01:24:50   a change, whereas when people talk about YouTube resonating more, it's much more like, this

01:24:56   is the horrible state of the world and it seems like it has always been thus. So that's

01:25:01   also part of like content wise, why did I choose to pick on that? But I'm sorry that

01:25:05   you were upset there, Myke.

01:25:06   I recognize my bias, right? Like, I disagree with you. I know that part of the reason I

01:25:11   disagree with you is because of my bias. And I'm, I'm comfortable with that. I think it's

01:25:15   okay to have bias as a human.

01:25:17   I actually disagree with you about your reasoning being biased.

01:25:22   I think you can just totally disagree with me and you don't have to be like, "I'm biased."

01:25:25   I think you have totally legit reasons that have nothing to do with being a podcast producer.

01:25:30   I have emotional feelings towards it that I probably wouldn't, right, if I was just a consumer.

01:25:35   But there's something we have to get to, which is so important to me, which is,

01:25:41   what do you feel about your impact on this stuff, right?

01:25:46   You are a man whose business has been built on creating viral videos.

01:25:52   That is who you are.

01:25:55   And talking about you want to stay away from Reddit,

01:26:01   but you continue to post your things there.

01:26:04   You want to stay away from podcasts.

01:26:06   You're talking about that whilst recording one.

01:26:09   And the algorithm, you create content which is feeded on the algorithm.

01:26:15   You've created videos about the algorithm to test the algorithm.

01:26:19   How do you reconcile your impact on this?

01:26:23   - It's because I don't think the problem

01:26:27   is at the level of any individual piece of content.

01:26:34   I had an early draft of that walk where I was talking about books again,

01:26:40   because I really do think it's important to make this point.

01:26:44   that this isn't new in theory,

01:26:48   but I do think that there's something that has changed.

01:26:50   And one of those things is like,

01:26:52   well, yeah, before YouTube and before Twitter

01:26:54   and all the rest of this,

01:26:55   it's like you can sit in a library and try to read a book

01:27:00   and have this same feeling of like,

01:27:02   man, all these other books in the library are calling to me

01:27:05   and losing your focus on the book that you're reading

01:27:09   and then turning to a different book and being like,

01:27:12   I'm gonna try to read this one better.

01:27:14   And some books are better at holding your attention

01:27:17   than others.

01:27:18   Like it's not new,

01:27:20   and I don't think that you could make any kind

01:27:23   of reasonable argument that,

01:27:25   boy, all these books in the library

01:27:27   are creating this distraction.

01:27:30   I think in that scenario,

01:27:31   you're basically talking about like

01:27:32   ground level zero human brains.

01:27:35   How do brains operate when confronted with options?

01:27:38   And the answer is like, sometimes not the greatest,

01:27:41   they flip back and forth between options.

01:27:43   They always think maybe the other thing is better.

01:27:45   That's like, that's just the natural state of things.

01:27:47   And I view like YouTube videos and podcasts, they're, they're

01:27:55   like books on the shelf, right?

01:27:57   They're, they're part of the whole media universe that includes everything

01:28:02   that is designed in some sense to survive by eating up the attention of other

01:28:10   Like the podcast survives by eating up the attention

01:28:13   of other people, like an aggregating it together.

01:28:14   And so do the YouTube videos, and so do movies,

01:28:18   and so does Netflix, and so does all of this stuff.

01:28:21   But like I, an argument that I'm not trying to make

01:28:25   is like, is the traditional information overload argument.

01:28:27   Like, oh, there's so much information

01:28:29   and that's the problem.

01:28:30   I don't think it's the information that is the problem.

01:28:34   I don't think it's any particular piece of content.

01:28:39   And that to me is like the real core here

01:28:41   of what I'm concerned about.

01:28:43   It's the algorithms selecting content for you

01:28:48   for a specific purpose, to keep you there,

01:28:55   to keep your attention there.

01:28:57   And there are pieces of media

01:29:00   which may happen to hold certain people,

01:29:04   but it's like that I don't lay that

01:29:06   at the feet of the content creators.

01:29:08   Like the videos that I watch over and over again.

01:29:11   You couldn't exactly say like,

01:29:12   "Boy, this video is so amazing at keeping your attention."

01:29:15   It's like, actually it's not, it's kind of boring.

01:29:17   It just happens to work for my brain.

01:29:21   But there's something different

01:29:23   about like the algorithms learning.

01:29:26   Like, oh, these kinds of things work great.

01:29:28   And so we're going to try to make sure

01:29:30   to show more of these things.

01:29:31   Or like, I just noticed like YouTube has this like,

01:29:34   watch it again feature, which is always super high of like,

01:29:37   of like, "Hey, we know that you're going to watch

01:29:40   the same videos you've watched a bunch of times

01:29:42   over and over again, if you're a certain kind of person."

01:29:45   And then like, "We'll move that up higher in the ranking."

01:29:48   So that's why I, this is part of why it's difficult

01:29:53   to have a conversation, is because,

01:29:56   it's like, you can see the first glimmer

01:30:00   of when I started thinking about this

01:30:02   in the vlog that I did about traveling around in the summer,

01:30:06   like Summer of Grey, part one and two.

01:30:09   And there's a little part in there

01:30:11   where I'm complaining about screens everywhere in America.

01:30:14   Like everywhere you go, there's like screen, screen, screens,

01:30:17   and there's a screen in the gym.

01:30:18   And it's like, yeah, that was like the start of me

01:30:21   really being cognizant of this and thinking this.

01:30:25   And there was just like such a strange amount of feedback

01:30:31   from people along these lines.

01:30:32   They're like, "Oh my God, what a hypocrite.

01:30:35   He doesn't like screens, but he owns a bunch of iPads and computers, and he makes his living on screens.

01:30:41   And it's like, the problem isn't this, like, screens in the abstract.

01:30:48   It's screens that are under your control versus screens that are not under your control.

01:30:55   And, you know, screens that you are using for your benefit and screens that are designed to use you for someone else's benefit.

01:31:05   But it's like people just hear the word and they're like,

01:31:08   "Ah, this thing is here and it's over here."

01:31:10   So this argument is so dumb.

01:31:13   This person isn't making a good argument.

01:31:15   And that's how I feel about content production

01:31:19   versus the way it's being served.

01:31:22   And you can get real meta about this

01:31:26   because then people do start creating content

01:31:29   to serve the algorithm

01:31:30   and you can start going in these circles.

01:31:32   But the thing that is different,

01:31:34   The thing that makes it fundamentally different

01:31:37   from a library with a lot of books

01:31:39   is that the library isn't rearranging itself

01:31:44   every time you walk in to try to make sure

01:31:48   you spend as much of your life in the library as possible.

01:31:51   Whereas lots of systems on the internet

01:31:54   are doing basically that.

01:31:56   As soon as you walk through the door,

01:31:57   it's like, how can we make sure you never leave?

01:32:01   - This is why it frustrates me

01:32:02   that you singled out podcasts so significantly.

01:32:05   Because there is, like, the majority of ways

01:32:07   that people listen to them, this is not the system.

01:32:10   Like, it's choice you've chosen.

01:32:12   It's more like you going to the library and picking books,

01:32:16   as opposed to the library mailing books to you

01:32:18   without you asking for them,

01:32:20   which is what YouTube is doing.

01:32:22   It's very, I mean, I don't think that we can come

01:32:25   to a level of agreement on this one.

01:32:28   - Well, we do have a level of agreement

01:32:30   that I explained my case poorly, right?

01:32:32   So like we actually don't disagree very much on this topic.

01:32:37   Like I think we're in much more agreement

01:32:39   than you think we are.

01:32:40   - I disagree with the gray who made the video

01:32:42   or like the video gray, then we are disagreeing here.

01:32:45   But it's like it's-

01:32:46   - And also lucky for you,

01:32:47   I disagree with that video gray as well, right?

01:32:50   But then I think this is-

01:32:51   - Lucky for you too.

01:32:52   Probably more lucky for you than lucky for me.

01:32:56   - What do you mean?

01:32:57   Well, I don't agree with you.

01:33:00   Like if this show stopped existing, I still have a whole

01:33:03   other business which produces this stuff.

01:33:05   But if you agreed completely with yourself, you wouldn't make any of the things that you do.

01:33:10   Because all of your videos would go away and all of your podcasts would go away.

01:33:14   And that's probably all of your income.

01:33:15   If you agreed with yourself so strongly, like you have to get out of the business that you're in.

01:33:20   No, but I feel like that's, that was the whole point I was trying to make before.

01:33:23   Is I don't think that the content creators are any different.

01:33:26   It's a layer on top of the content creators.

01:33:29   - But my point is I'm not disagreeing with you here,

01:33:32   disagreeing with the video version of you,

01:33:34   which seemed way more gung ho on like, eliminate consumption.

01:33:39   - Well, yeah, that's what he's doing

01:33:44   and that's what I'm doing, is we're trying to figure this out

01:33:46   and create some space in our life and be like, well--

01:33:49   - Sure, but like, do this with me is very like,

01:33:53   stop consuming, right?

01:33:54   It's not that you doing it for yourself is very different

01:33:58   to you then encouraging other people to do it with you.

01:34:00   And when you encourage other people to do it with you,

01:34:02   whilst also continuing to create the stuff

01:34:05   that people are consuming,

01:34:06   that's where things start to get a little bit complicated.

01:34:10   - Yeah, well, I mean, this is also a huge amount

01:34:13   of pushback I get against this is,

01:34:15   and you yourself mentioned it in the show,

01:34:18   is why do you have to get rid of everything?

01:34:20   Why can't you just do it in moderation?

01:34:23   And the answer is like my experience with this is like,

01:34:26   this is just the way my brain works better.

01:34:29   But I understand that. My point is that like,

01:34:32   what you should be potentially asking other people to do is to moderate

01:34:37   because not everybody's brain is like yours,

01:34:40   but for you to do it for you personally,

01:34:42   it has to be completely gone. Like, and I get that,

01:34:46   like I a hundred percent get that that's your brain,

01:34:49   But I think there is a problem in like you suggesting everybody does things the way that you're doing it.

01:34:56   Okay.

01:34:57   So there's another little, there's another little thing here, which I'm like, I think we've talked about this on the show, but I don't know if we ever really have is I feel so strongly that I am making stuff for people with brains that are similar to mine.

01:35:13   I am super aware when we record Cortex in particular

01:35:18   of I think this show would have been fantastic

01:35:22   had it existed for a younger me.

01:35:24   And I think of that as part of the motivating reason

01:35:29   for why I make the show.

01:35:30   And so even when I'm putting that video together,

01:35:34   it's like, why did I pick podcasts as an example?

01:35:37   Why did I talk about some things in particular?

01:35:39   Why do I suggest removing all of this stuff?

01:35:43   Because I'm trying to hit the brains

01:35:46   that are like me with this target.

01:35:50   And I wouldn't really know how to make a video

01:35:54   where I'd be like, I think you should do this in moderation,

01:35:56   but it's not remotely what I'm gonna do.

01:35:58   I'm gonna do something totally different

01:36:00   because I think it's gonna be more effective for me.

01:36:02   And you're a different sort of person, so I don't know.

01:36:07   I don't know how I would make that video.

01:36:11   I feel like I can only make content for people

01:36:15   who are in, at least in some ways, similar to me.

01:36:19   - You're preaching to the quiet here.

01:36:21   Look at all I do.

01:36:22   I just make things about stuff I'm interested in

01:36:26   with the hope that I'm making it for other people

01:36:28   that are interested in things like me.

01:36:30   - Yeah, that's what we both do, yeah.

01:36:32   - I 100% sympathize with that.

01:36:34   Like, that's what I'm saying, it's like, I get it.

01:36:36   I get why you made it the way that you did, but there are problems in doing that, which

01:36:40   I know you understand, but you can't communicate in 10 minutes.

01:36:45   It's taken us 45 to do it instead.

01:36:47   Right.

01:36:48   Well, that's why different mediums are better at doing different things.

01:36:52   Right, so don't call our podcasting.

01:36:54   Long-form conversation is the perfect thing for a podcast.

01:36:58   It's where podcasts excel by far.

01:37:01   All I'm going to say is, it's lucky for you that you don't have to deal with the Reddit

01:37:05   thread after these discussions.

01:37:06   I mean, you don't have to either, Myke. You can step back.

01:37:09   No, but I want to, though.

01:37:11   I want to, too. I'm just… I think I need to not for a little while.

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01:39:58   Alright, so I have a question for you then. Mr Stay Away from the Internet. Did you watch

01:40:04   the Apple event this week?

01:40:07   Uh… yes.

01:40:09   Okay.

01:40:10   But not live.

01:40:11   I watched it after the fact.

01:40:16   When it was going on live, I was busy working.

01:40:19   I knew it was happening, but I was like, "It doesn't...

01:40:22   If I can't be around to joke on Twitter and make snarky comments, I'll watch it later."

01:40:29   And I did feel a little bit like, "Oh, I kind of want to watch it live."

01:40:33   But in retrospect, I'm very glad that I watched it later when I could jump around in the video.

01:40:40   I feel like boy, if there was ever a year not to watch live, this was that year.

01:40:45   I disagree with that. There have been way more boring events than this one.

01:40:49   Oh, more boring events. Yes. But I'm thinking like iPhone events in particular?

01:40:56   No, I mean, even like iPhone events, you look at something like the iPhone 7, right? Like that is

01:41:01   a way and was a way less interesting phone than the XS and the XS Max and stuff like that. Like,

01:41:08   This is an S year, right?

01:41:10   I think people got super excited because the 10 event was so good

01:41:13   that kind of forgotten about the other S year presentations.

01:41:17   Like there was more in this one, depending on what you're going to.

01:41:22   So me as opposed to the big phones, super excited.

01:41:25   And plus, I think the 10R

01:41:27   is probably the best phone for most people.

01:41:29   But yeah, sure.

01:41:32   If you didn't enjoy it, that's fine.

01:41:34   But I've seen this this kind of thing said a lot about like,

01:41:37   "Oh, this is the most boring iPhone event," and I just don't agree with it.

01:41:40   But that's fine.

01:41:41   Where I suspect that comes from and where I really felt that when I was watching the event

01:41:46   was when they were just talking about the tennis phone and it's like, boy, you could see what was happening

01:41:54   and I felt like, "Oh, God, you guys have served up this big nothing burger that you have to eat on stage."

01:42:00   And you're like, "Mmm, this nothing burger is so delicious."

01:42:04   And I was actually like, "What's different about this phone exactly?"

01:42:08   And I went on the Apple site to try to be like,

01:42:12   "Did they even make any physical changes in the camera?"

01:42:15   So they just, I felt bad for them on stage,

01:42:18   whereas like, they got nothing with the tennis phone.

01:42:21   Like they are just, "Woo, that's rough."

01:42:24   That was a rough section of the presentation.

01:42:26   (laughs)

01:42:27   - I mean, the watch was pretty cool though.

01:42:29   - Oh my God.

01:42:30   - If you're an Apple Watch owner,

01:42:31   Like they have basically taken every single bit of it

01:42:34   and made it better.

01:42:35   Like this is the biggest jump for the Apple Watch

01:42:38   since the original.

01:42:39   - Yeah, no, I am super psyched about the new Apple Watch.

01:42:44   I am so happy it's bigger.

01:42:47   I've always wanted a bigger Apple Watch.

01:42:49   - Okay, interesting.

01:42:51   - Before the Apple Watch came into my life

01:42:53   when I used to wear watches,

01:42:54   I always preferred bigger designs.

01:42:56   Like I like a big watch face.

01:42:57   - I mean, this is why they've done it.

01:42:58   There are a lot of people like you

01:42:59   that want bigger watches.

01:43:01   I mean, I don't know what I want, right?

01:43:03   Like, or what I would want, honestly.

01:43:06   Like, I probably, again, like when it came out originally,

01:43:09   would actually want to see what they look like on me first.

01:43:12   But if you had a penchant for bigger watches before,

01:43:15   then, I mean, yes, and of course,

01:43:17   and I think that's why they did it,

01:43:18   'cause I think there were a lot of people like you.

01:43:20   - I don't think that Apple could reasonably manufacture

01:43:24   a watch size that I wouldn't buy in terms of large ones.

01:43:29   Like we fast forward five years and they've made the, you know, the Apple Watch Tennis

01:43:35   Max watch and I'll be like...

01:43:36   The cuff, right?

01:43:37   Where it's just like this big screen you wrap around your wrist.

01:43:42   I don't know, that sounds awesome.

01:43:44   That sounds awesome.

01:43:45   What are you trying to un-sell me from like a total wrap around watch?

01:43:50   I'm just saying about where it will possibly go to, not that this is a bad thing.

01:43:54   Yeah.

01:43:55   like bigger screen on the watch sold immediately.

01:43:59   I'm totally on board.

01:44:00   And the health stuff was great.

01:44:02   And like in the, in the greater gray family,

01:44:06   there are a bunch of people who are on series zero watches.

01:44:09   And I'm like, Apple watches are raining down

01:44:11   from the sky this year for the family.

01:44:14   It's like, we've got health alerts,

01:44:16   we've got bigger screens.

01:44:18   It's like, everyone's getting an Apple watch.

01:44:20   You're all getting upgraded.

01:44:21   Like we got it.

01:44:22   We got to all do this together everybody.

01:44:23   This is like, this is the year to upgrade.

01:44:25   I am not buying one.

01:44:26   Um, I assumed as much because you don't wear the Apple watch anymore.

01:44:30   I, this is a fantastic, just like everything that I loved about the Apple

01:44:34   watch, it's all better in this one.

01:44:36   Like if I was a person that wore the Apple watch, I would have jumped on it.

01:44:39   I love the gold steel one.

01:44:41   I think that that looks really amazing, super expensive, but

01:44:44   like I'm really drawn to it.

01:44:45   I think it looks great.

01:44:46   Um, and everything about it looks awesome.

01:44:48   I have ordered one for Adina because she is on a series zero.

01:44:52   So, she's gonna get a better one.

01:44:57   We're not sure about the sizing for her though, so, she wears the 38 and that's big on her,

01:45:01   so I don't know what the 40 is gonna be like, we're intrigued to see how that ends up.

01:45:07   But this is a fantastic device and if you're a person that uses them, then this is great.

01:45:13   So I assume that you, I'm just gonna assume you have definitely ordered a Series 4.

01:45:17   Oh yeah, yeah. That's the thing that I'm the most excited about. I was like, "Yes!"

01:45:24   Have you ordered it to receive it on the day of launch?

01:45:27   No, I was a little slow on the gun. I think it's coming like the week after or something

01:45:34   like that. I don't know exactly.

01:45:36   What about the phones? Did you order a new phone?

01:45:38   Do you have any guesses, Myke? What do you think?

01:45:40   I think you did. I think that you ordered a Max.

01:45:43   - Oh, look at you, very good, Myke.

01:45:46   You are correct.

01:45:47   I did order a Max.

01:45:49   - And the reason I think that you did it is

01:45:52   you liked the Plus phone,

01:45:55   but just kind of mixed things around over time,

01:45:57   but I know that you liked it.

01:45:59   And I know that you love your iPhone 10.

01:46:02   So imagine everything you love, but more of it.

01:46:05   - That's my thinking.

01:46:07   Now, I don't think I've ever ordered a phone

01:46:09   that I have a higher probability of returning,

01:46:13   but I did want to get this order in.

01:46:16   - Yeah, I mean, this is a big screen, right?

01:46:20   Like, you know, it is gonna be really intriguing

01:46:24   to see what this ends up being like.

01:46:26   I will be getting mine on launch day,

01:46:30   and I'm super intrigued, I'm very excited,

01:46:33   because I don't know how I'm gonna feel about this.

01:46:37   I'm probably gonna really like it,

01:46:39   but I might really like it, right?

01:46:41   Like, I'm very intrigued to see what a like, what is it?

01:46:46   Like 6.5 inch screen is gonna be like in my hand.

01:46:51   And you know, this thing is exciting.

01:46:54   Like it's almost as big as a plus, but all screen.

01:46:58   As that is quite a beast.

01:47:01   - Yeah, I'm super interested to see what it's like.

01:47:06   I mean, I'm interested like from a professional standpoint

01:47:09   in one way, but yeah, no,

01:47:10   You know me very well on this issue, Myke,

01:47:13   because I really like my iPhone X.

01:47:18   It's the phone that I have liked the most

01:47:22   since the 6 line,

01:47:24   which was my time in the wilderness with iPhones.

01:47:27   And yes, I used the Plus phone for a while,

01:47:32   and I had frustrations with it,

01:47:35   but one of those frustrations was often

01:47:37   like these big, dumb bezels at the top and the bottom,

01:47:41   made the phone feel bigger than it really was

01:47:44   'cause it felt like there's all this useless space,

01:47:47   even though obviously they were shoving

01:47:48   all the important components under that useless space.

01:47:50   But so that's why I'm just super interested to see

01:47:57   what is it like to use a screen that's this size?

01:48:01   Does it change how the phone feels for me?

01:48:06   Like, do I like it much better having this gigantic screen,

01:48:08   or will I use it for a while and think,

01:48:12   oh, no, like, I'll just go back to my X.

01:48:14   Like, the big screen doesn't actually get me

01:48:17   something that's worth the trade-off of the hugeness of it.

01:48:23   I don't know.

01:48:24   I can say that I really hope that I'll like it,

01:48:28   in no small part because, especially this month

01:48:33   that I imagined going forward for a while,

01:48:35   I've been using my iPhone a lot more as a book,

01:48:39   as like a Kindle reading experience.

01:48:42   The iPhone X is good at that,

01:48:45   but boy, do I feel it every time.

01:48:47   Like I will take the biggest screen that I can get here.

01:48:50   And if I can carry my Kindle with me, I always do,

01:48:54   but I don't always have the Kindle with me.

01:48:57   And there's plenty of situations where I was like,

01:48:59   well, there's only one thing to do on the phone here.

01:49:02   Like I'm gonna read a book now.

01:49:03   And so a bigger screen sure would be nice in that situation.

01:49:08   - Oh, I just wanna let you know,

01:49:09   I know you don't care about this,

01:49:10   but I'm just gonna tell you,

01:49:11   I no longer judge you for X, right?

01:49:16   Because I think at the point that Apple

01:49:17   were just adding more letters

01:49:20   and trying to still make people say numbers is ludicrous.

01:49:23   Right, to put a letter X and a letter S next to each other

01:49:27   and then expect people to say 10 S, no.

01:49:32   because I keep calling them XR and XS in my head now,

01:49:34   and I just think that they have no high ground anymore

01:49:38   with this argument.

01:49:39   (laughing)

01:49:41   Like it is gone.

01:49:42   - That's a good way to put it.

01:49:44   While I joke that the iPhone XS is this total nothing burger

01:49:47   of a phone, the lineup is interesting.

01:49:50   - The XR is like, I really mean it.

01:49:54   Like I mean, I've been obviously thinking and talking

01:49:56   and speaking and consuming a lot about this.

01:49:58   For the vast majority of people,

01:50:02   the XR is the phone to buy.

01:50:05   - I always like to play the game with the Apple lineup

01:50:08   of if you had to buy a laptop for someone

01:50:13   and you knew nothing about them,

01:50:16   which laptop would you buy?

01:50:18   I think that's just an interesting question.

01:50:21   And now that we have multiple phones,

01:50:24   it's like, oh, it's sort of the same question again.

01:50:28   And when I look at the new phone lineups, I agree that that it's like, boy, if I

01:50:33   didn't know anything about someone and I had to be like, surprise, here's a phone.

01:50:37   It's like, I think that I think the iPhone 10 is totally the,

01:50:41   like the correct default choice.

01:50:43   It sure is.

01:50:47   It's interesting.

01:50:48   I it's, it's an interesting point.

01:50:50   It's not for me because I'm in love with the OLED screen and I don't

01:50:55   think I'd want the in-between size.

01:50:56   I either want the bigger one or I want the smaller one.

01:50:59   I don't think I'd want the in-between one.

01:51:01   But if I had to make a prediction, like I think that it's going to be a super popular phone.

01:51:06   It should be.

01:51:07   And I'm surprised that Apple did a better job of it.

01:51:10   I was expecting something that was going to be like all old inside and new on the outside,

01:51:15   but they actually put all new inside and some old on the outside, but mostly new, right?

01:51:20   Like for intents and purposes, it is a XS just with a different screen.

01:51:24   Like that's all it is.

01:51:25   The guts of that thing are exactly the same.

01:51:28   This got one camera, but it still does portrait mode.

01:51:30   Like that is a great phone.

01:51:32   Like for people in my life to ask me what, if someone has to ask me what phone

01:51:36   shall I buy, the answer is a XR.

01:51:38   Because you know, if you want a XS already, like you just know that like

01:51:42   somebody who buys that phone pretty much knows that they want that phone.

01:51:45   If somebody is not sure about what phone to buy, the XR is probably the right move.

01:51:49   Yeah.

01:51:49   And, and, and the same with the XS Max.

01:51:51   It's like, if you, if you know, if you want to buy that there's, there's

01:51:54   nobody who's like, "Mmm, maybe."

01:51:55   Right.

01:51:56   That is a very specific phone.

01:51:57   I am super intrigued as to what is going to happen to my home screen

01:52:02   again, when I get the bigger phone.

01:52:05   I don't believe it has the ability for more icons on the home screen.

01:52:09   I think it's the same as the, as the X, but it's going to be so much bigger.

01:52:14   It's going to change what I can reach again.

01:52:16   This is where my isolation from the internet was a little bit

01:52:19   frustrating because it's like this intersection of my isolation and also my not quite technical

01:52:28   understanding of what the pixels versus points really means in terms of screens.

01:52:34   And so yeah, I don't really have a great understanding of like the resolution size of the bigger

01:52:42   phone versus the regular one.

01:52:44   Yeah, I can see it.

01:52:45   I'm looking at some YouTube videos now.

01:52:46   I'm looking at MKBHD's video and it's just everything's more spaced out.

01:52:50   It's the same amount of icons and stuff.

01:52:53   DAN MICKENSON Do you know if it does the icon slide thing

01:52:57   when you turn it to the side?

01:52:59   This just occurred to me as one of the things I did not like about the plus is all the icons

01:53:03   changing location when you switch to the side.

01:53:05   WILLIAMSON I don't know if it does that.

01:53:07   I don't think it does, but it does have the plus split screen mode again.

01:53:13   DAN MICKENSON That's fine, but boy did I like I hated the

01:53:15   way the icons moved.

01:53:16   It's like, just rotate them in place, for God's sake, don't slide them.

01:53:20   I actually don't know if it does the icon rotating again.

01:53:24   That's going to be interesting to find out.

01:53:27   We will find out about that.

01:53:29   But yes, it'll cause much homescreen renegotiation.

01:53:34   Maybe we'll have to talk about that.

01:53:36   Well, if you have a moment, I do want to show you something that I've done, Myke.

01:53:43   Can I show you my my home screen now always before. I show this to you just want to say

01:53:52   this is a very experimental time in my life. So this is a very experimental home screen.

01:54:00   Step one lock screen. Okay, that's going to remind you of the wilderness and step two

01:54:09   Home screen.

01:54:10   Oh.

01:54:12   Okay.

01:54:14   100%

01:54:16   shortcuts.

01:54:18   Oh!

01:54:19   It's all shortcuts.

01:54:22   We don't have time to talk about this today.

01:54:27   But boy, do we need to.

01:54:30   [Laughter]