0:00:00I'm delivery number 46 Grey and the courier is currently on delivery number 41 and they're
0:00:05about 15 minutes away.
0:00:07Delivery of what?
0:00:08Uh, I'm getting some new Apple products today like an Apple Watch is on the way and an Apple
0:00:13TV is on the way.
0:00:15Today is the day so during today's show I'm gonna be taking receipt of some new stuff
0:00:20so you'll probably lose me for a while you know.
0:00:22It's like just go and press the buttons on my new toys.
0:00:28You lucky jerk. You got your orders in ahead of me.
0:00:31Yep.
0:00:32I am. Let me just look it up really quickly. According
0:00:34to my app for my Apple Watch, I am delivery number 10,444th, I presume, because it's not
0:00:42coming until October.
0:00:45Well the early bird catches the pre-orders or something.
0:00:49I guess so. I guess so.
0:00:51So you bought the Apple Watch of LTE, huh? Is this going to be part of the multi-multi-watch
0:00:57lifestyle how many watches are you gonna keep around when a third one is your life?
0:01:00what do you mean multi- like I already live the multi watch lifestyle I have two
0:01:04watches that's two so then is there a third gonna join or like what happens
0:01:08you gonna replace the other one? that's crazy that doesn't make any sense
0:01:12oh I just thought if you bought two LTE watches for yourself? no I have bought
0:01:16one LTE watch for myself right right cuz it'd be crazy to buy two right? it would
0:01:21be crazy to buy two right at the start. Yeah. That would...
0:01:25[Laughter]
0:01:26Nice qualification there.
0:01:29Well I don't yet know how useful the LTE watch is or exactly how it's going to fit into my
0:01:34life or how it's going to work with my various habits.
0:01:36Are you even on the correct network for this?
0:01:40I have not investigated that. I didn't know that I needed to look into networks.
0:01:44If you're not on EE in the UK then you're out of luck my friend.
0:01:48Oh really? Hmm.
0:01:49I just delivered some horrifying news to you.
0:01:53Well, maybe it's a good thing then that my delivery is not until number 10,000 or something.
0:01:57I'm currently on 3, is my network provider of choice.
0:02:01Then it's time for you to switch network if you want to use an LTE Apple Watch.
0:02:05No, but surely the networks are going to update with this.
0:02:09Surely, yeah. It'll only be a couple of days, I'm sure, until all of the other networks come on board.
0:02:13Oh, Myke.
0:02:17expecting to get this piece of news from you.
0:02:19It never even occurred to me that this might be limited to different carriers.
0:02:24Yep, it is. It is. Just one in the UK. Just one for now.
0:02:28So, you've got some work to do, my friend.
0:02:31I've got some life rearranging to do.
0:02:34Yep. I actually don't think it's at all possible to even get it to work.
0:02:39It has to be the carrier that you're on. Otherwise you've got no choice.
0:02:44The one thing that's frustrating me though, again I don't know if you know this, it doesn't
0:02:47roam.
0:02:48You can't roam.
0:02:49Huh, I'm not surprised by that.
0:02:51I didn't think about that, but I'm not surprised that at the start there's no roaming with
0:02:54the LTE watch.
0:02:55It's definitely version one.
0:02:56I mean, and also like all of the earlier reviews there's a bunch of problems with it, but apparently
0:03:00there's some fixes on the way.
0:03:01But I'm waiting to see.
0:03:02Like, I'm going to reserve my own judgement until I've actually had time to play around
0:03:05with it.
0:03:06Which by the time this episode comes out, I probably will have played around with it,
0:03:10and will have spoken about it on my various technology-focused podcasts, of which I will
0:03:14include links in the show notes, Gray. Yes, you're going to be wearing the watch
0:03:17while we're doing this show and probably simultaneously recording another one of
0:03:22your shows to give your first impressions. Yeah, every time you're
0:03:24talking I'm talking to somebody else. Yeah, that's how that works. That's how
0:03:28Myke gets all these podcasts done. CT does simul podcasting. It's very intense
0:03:33but that's how you do 20 shows at once. It's the only way. It is the only
0:03:37way to do it and maintain work-life balance. You have to double it. It's like
0:03:41two times work and then life balance. That's how you do it.
0:03:45I don't think that formula comes out the way you think it comes out, but okay.
0:03:48Sure, sure, sure. Don't worry about it. It's in practice it works. Just on paper it seems
0:03:53a bit tricky. Let's come back to that. I want to know what you think about the iPhone 10,
0:03:57but let's come back to that a little bit later on so we can give some respite to the people
0:04:02that don't care about these types of things. Because there has been some huge news. There's
0:04:06been a rift. There was a, there was a, I could feel a change in the force, Gray.
0:04:11Oh yeah? As you uploaded a YouTube video.
0:04:14Oh okay, well now that's, that's, you're being a little dramatic there. Do Q&A videos really
0:04:19count? I feel like they count for half a video. Well okay, it was like it was a minor rift,
0:04:24it was a minor disturbance in the force as you uploaded a semi-YouTube video I guess.
0:04:31Mm-hmm. But it still was one,
0:04:32it still had animations in it, it still had fun parts of it, it still took work,
0:04:36I'm assuming, right?
0:04:38- Yeah, it does take work. - But there is a video,
0:04:39there is a, you've come back.
0:04:40How does it feel to make your triumphant return to YouTube?
0:04:45- Boy, you're really, you're really enjoying this,
0:04:47aren't you?
0:04:48- Look, what I enjoy most is the comments
0:04:51that I see so often of--
0:04:54- Yes, I know these tickle you.
0:04:56- Podcast to CGP Grey,
0:04:58who sometimes uploads YouTube videos.
0:05:00- Do you know that, I mean,
0:05:03I have no say in this kind of thing,
0:05:04but the consensus on my Wikipedia page
0:05:07was to reverse the order in which my professions are listed.
0:05:11- I mean, all you can do is just look at the facts.
0:05:15I mean, I'm not one to talk, right?
0:05:16Because I have not uploaded anything
0:05:19to my YouTube channel for a while.
0:05:20There is a good reason for that, which we'll get into later.
0:05:22Like I just have a ton of footage just sitting on my iPhone
0:05:25that I haven't been able to do anything with
0:05:27'cause I've been working on some other stuff.
0:05:29But I'm pleased to see that you've made your return.
0:05:34I'm glad that you're pleased that I've made a return.
0:05:38I always figure it's not for me to determine
0:05:40how people want to describe what it is that I do,
0:05:42and I'll let them describe it however they want.
0:05:45But I do too think it's funny when people list,
0:05:48essentially in reverse order, all the things that I do.
0:05:51Those are always entertaining comments.
0:05:54- I think it makes sense though,
0:05:55'cause you have two mostly regular shows,
0:05:58like two mostly regular podcasts in any YouTube channel,
0:06:01where you post stuff on a incredibly sporadic basis.
0:06:06- I'm not arguing with the Wikipedia here.
0:06:08I just think it's funny that someone went in and changed it.
0:06:10- I am looking at CGP Grey, podcaster
0:06:12and educational YouTuber.
0:06:13That's wonderful.
0:06:16That is wonderful.
0:06:17- I'm glad you like it.
0:06:19- Did you get back into the swing of things okay?
0:06:21- Yeah, yeah, it was fine.
0:06:23Okay, so this is one of these things that is,
0:06:28It's a bit weird to have a podcast
0:06:32where you sort of talk about your working life in public
0:06:35because sometimes there are things
0:06:38that you kind of can't talk about.
0:06:40And people know I always, whenever I can,
0:06:44I try to take time off for the summer
0:06:45because it is the eternal teacher within me
0:06:47who feels like summertime,
0:06:50nobody should work during the summertime.
0:06:52But this past summer, just for various things
0:06:54that aren't necessarily really interesting
0:06:56to talk about on the show,
0:06:57I was really busy with non-public work stuff, so the YouTube channel was essentially on pause for a couple of months.
0:07:04And that's part of what the delay was.
0:07:07But, you know, the Q&A video, people seem to like it, the reception seems to be good.
0:07:11I'm never quite sure with the Q&A videos, I always feel like since they're a little bit of a different kind of video,
0:07:17I don't know how they're going to be received.
0:07:19But yeah, I'm always happy to post stuff on the YouTube channel.
0:07:22I genuinely feel better when I do that kind of thing.
0:07:26That's the sort of work that my brain treats as
0:07:30the realest, most countingest of work that I do.
0:07:34It's like, "Oh, you've uploaded a YouTube video.
0:07:36"That's real work."
0:07:38Like, "Oh, you put out a bunch of podcasts this month."
0:07:40It's like, "Ah, you were just talking to people."
0:07:41Like, that's not real work,
0:07:43is how my brain sort of treats it.
0:07:45Okay, okay, you keep treating it like that.
0:07:47That's fine.
0:07:48You keep treating it like no work.
0:07:50If that helps you to continue to do these things, then it's fine by me.
0:07:53I'm not saying that it helps me to continue. I'm just simply saying that's how my brain treats it.
0:07:59Yeah.
0:07:59And it's just like, you can't argue with brains, you know, they're going to do what they do.
0:08:04And like, I would genuinely try to argue with my brain and be like, you know,
0:08:07podcasting is real work too. And my brain just kind of shrugs at that.
0:08:11It's like, yeah, I guess whatever. And it looks away.
0:08:14Whatever, lazy boy.
0:08:15Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
0:08:17Are you back into the swing though? Like are you working on meaty videos?
0:08:22Yeah, yeah.
0:08:23What are they, the historical science videos that you make?
0:08:27That's right, historical science videos.
0:08:30Yeah, we actually, we didn't quite get into it last time,
0:08:34but we sort of touched on like our sleep schedules being all messed up,
0:08:37and you'll have to tell me about that sleep survey later, but...
0:08:40Gosh, yeah, I will.
0:08:42Just still didn't really understand what was occurring with that.
0:08:45But anyway, we were talking then about trying to have a regular sleep schedule and how important
0:08:55it is. And it is one of these things that I did have this really exhausting summer. And as I was
0:09:01mentioning last time, I just felt like I could not get back into the regular flow of things. And so I
0:09:07did end up taking a great occasion to really buckle down and be like, "Okay, brain, you and me, we're
0:09:15gonna get back into the schedule of real work that's really going to happen and we're going
0:09:21to be getting up at 5.30 and you're not gonna like any of it, but we're gonna do this."
0:09:27And it's interesting, it was really quite brutal because my brain was bucking very hard
0:09:34against this, but I did it and it was important to do and like that's part of the reason the
0:09:38Q&A video came up and there's some other things in the work. It is interesting trying to do
0:09:43the thing where you force yourself back into a pattern.
0:09:49So anyway, that's something that I was up to, and I've been now regularly getting up,
0:09:56you know, very early in the morning, which again is a thing that really is the number
0:10:01one contributing factor to how do I feel about how my working life is going, and how productive
0:10:06do I feel that I am on any particular day.
0:10:08So I'm pretty happy about that.
0:10:09Well I'm pleased that you were able to somehow get it back, right?
0:10:14My thing was just I came back to work with a messed up schedule at one of the most important
0:10:19parts of my working year so I was forced into a...
0:10:26My sleep cycle wasn't forced at all.
0:10:28It was still just a disaster for most of the last few weeks but there's not really been
0:10:34much choice.
0:10:35I just have to kind of just live with it.
0:10:37It also didn't help that like the way in which the work occurs during this period of time
0:10:44meant that there was some times where I was going to bed at 2.30 because I had no choice.
0:10:49You mean because you were recording with somebody on the West Coast and that was the time they
0:10:53were available?
0:10:54Exactly, right?
0:10:55Like there's nothing I can do about that and so that really didn't help.
0:10:59So like even because there was a lot of stuff contributing to me staying up later even if
0:11:04I didn't want to.
0:11:05So basically like I'm still in a real bad way with sleep right now, but it's not jet
0:11:10lag anymore.
0:11:11Like I've just got a really screwed up schedule because I haven't done a very good job of
0:11:17managing it and maybe for the first time in my life I have truly recognised the effect
0:11:23of bad sleep on me.
0:11:26I feel like maybe for the first time I've really been able to be like "oh I feel really
0:11:30bad today".
0:11:32I think it might be because I haven't been sleeping.
0:11:34And this is maybe the first time
0:11:37this has ever really happened.
0:11:38And I think it's because
0:11:39this has been the biggest shock to my system
0:11:43with the amount of time that I spent in another time zone
0:11:47and then not being able to get into a position
0:11:50where I was able to change it,
0:11:52even though my life around me has dictated
0:11:55that I had to change.
0:11:58So I've been having errands to run
0:12:01or meetings or things that were happening
0:12:02in the morning in England,
0:12:04but everything else was happening in the evening in the US.
0:12:10- Okay, so you had a big stretch of time in between.
0:12:13- So I was having to cater to all of it
0:12:16in a way that was also being quite badly jet-lagged.
0:12:20It was all just happening.
0:12:24And this is maybe the first time where I've been like,
0:12:27I have not felt great the last couple of weeks.
0:12:30And I've been getting colds and stuff like that happening here and there, right?
0:12:36Like it keeps coming and going and it's like, "Mmm, yeah, I need to sleep more."
0:12:43Since you happen to have had this schedule where there's two blocks of working time that
0:12:47are separated by a great distance during the day, have you ever tried naps, Myke?
0:12:52I hate naps.
0:12:53Oh, I hate them.
0:12:56I used to be this guy.
0:12:58And I used to have like a moral rejection of naps.
0:13:03It was like, "Oh, naps. That's for lazy people and cats."
0:13:07You know, like a grown man is not going to lie down and take a little nap.
0:13:11But it is a thing that I have tried and I feel like the most beautiful and perfect sleep cycle for me,
0:13:19but that is yet also the most fragile,
0:13:21is the waking up early in the morning and then taking a very brief
0:13:25midday nap and kind of breaking the day into
0:13:29two phases. It's like when I can get into that groove
0:13:34it's like everything is right in the world.
0:13:37And I used to be really opposed to naps and
0:13:39if you're really opposed to them, like I think you should just give it a try.
0:13:43Like a very short nap, like just 20 minutes, maybe 30 minutes, you know, not an hour,
0:13:48but it really is very helpful.
0:13:51- I wanna give you, I've just written this down
0:13:54on the notebook that I have in front of me.
0:13:57I have two points here about naps.
0:14:00- Okay.
0:14:00- Point number one, every time I've ever taken a nap,
0:14:04whether purposely or accidentally, mostly accidentally,
0:14:07I wake up and I don't know where I am,
0:14:10I don't know what day it is, I don't know what time it is,
0:14:13and I just feel atrocious.
0:14:15- Yeah, no, accidental naps are awful,
0:14:18And I'm with you there 100% of the time.
0:14:20If you wake up from an accidental nap,
0:14:22it's that feeling of like,
0:14:25(gasps)
0:14:26like, where am I?
0:14:28Like, what happened?
0:14:29Was I suffocating to death?
0:14:31And then you have that horrific sleep inertia
0:14:35where it's like, oh, I'm sitting up from the couch,
0:14:38but it feels like only my soul has sat up
0:14:41and my body is still lying on the couch.
0:14:43Yeah, it's terrible.
0:14:44- Yeah, that sound that you made
0:14:46is the perfect way of describing the feeling.
0:14:49- Yeah, that is also the alarm went off
0:14:52when I was in the middle of a dream,
0:14:54waking up sound, right?
0:14:56This is like getting up early in the morning.
0:14:58I was like, (gasps)
0:14:59like I can't, I just need air.
0:15:02Like I'm drowning, but actually I was just asleep.
0:15:06- The second part is an issue that I have
0:15:09about planning into my day
0:15:12what I consider to be wastes of time
0:15:15and how I feel about those.
0:15:18I waste time every day procrastinating,
0:15:21like every human being, right?
0:15:22Like I waste time.
0:15:24- Of course.
0:15:25- But if I plan into my day a period of time
0:15:28where I won't be working,
0:15:29I get very anxious about that if I'm busy.
0:15:32This is my own problem that I need to take steps
0:15:37to deal with and it's something that I think about.
0:15:39But it's like if I schedule a lunch with a friend
0:15:42whilst I'm also busy or I have a lunch with a friend
0:15:45booked in and then my week goes pear-shaped and I end up with a bunch of
0:15:50tasks that need to be completed, I feel really anxious about that. So the
0:15:54idea of having naps, like planning to take a nap, I don't know, I feel like I
0:15:59would, I feel like I would be very uncomfortable about like, oh I'm just
0:16:03gonna go to sleep for an hour, like no, I don't know.
0:16:06Yeah, well again, don't go to sleep for an hour, that's terrible, that's a bad idea.
0:16:10Well what are we talking here?
0:16:12Again, 20-30 minutes. That's all you need here.
0:16:15And also, here's the trick with the 20-30 minute nap.
0:16:19Is you shouldn't really be expecting to go into full sleep.
0:16:25When you get into this routine,
0:16:27you're not really sleeping.
0:16:30What you're doing is you're going into a kind of low power mode for a little bit.
0:16:35That's what's occurring.
0:16:38and it makes it easier to pull out of without feeling like you're drowning and you're dying.
0:16:44Don't do the hour thing. You're always going to feel terrible with an hour of sleep.
0:16:48That's a bad idea.
0:16:49Because it always takes me a long time to go to sleep. Always.
0:16:52Yeah, but this is it. Don't think about it like, "I'm going to bed in the middle of the day."
0:16:58Think about it more, "I'm closing my eyes for 25 minutes."
0:17:02And that's it. That's all you have to do. Just close your eyes for 25 minutes,
0:17:07and that is the minimum that needs to occur.
0:17:10And like I said, in my experience,
0:17:14this is a fragile thing, even in my life,
0:17:19which I try to keep as relatively unscheduled as possible.
0:17:23Like stuff comes up that'll always make it inconvenient
0:17:26to just go to sleep for a little bit
0:17:28in the middle of the day.
0:17:29But when that works, like it works really great.
0:17:33And if you know you're going to have to be up later,
0:17:37It's it's vital like one of one of my top
0:17:40Conference survival tips like I was doing a bunch of conferences over the summer is
0:17:45You have to go back to the hotel and
0:17:49Take a nap at some point in the afternoon and and like that that is for me
0:17:55Conference survival tip number one like if you you do not do this you will
0:18:00Severely regret it later in the day well
0:18:04but see then the thing is I know that's gone wrong for you. I've been in situations where
0:18:11I said to you "Where were you yesterday?" and you said to me "I took a nap and didn't
0:18:16wake up."
0:18:17I have no memory of when this is. I think you're like making up a story so that you
0:18:22don't have to take a nap.
0:18:23No, this is true. I'm not a nine-year-old. No one's putting me down, right? We're good.
0:18:30I remember it was somewhere it was either all or was that AWDC or something
0:18:35I remember saying to you, where did you go? And you were like, oh well
0:18:38I went to take a nap and then I woke up. Oh, I know what you're talking about
0:18:43I went upstairs in the evening and just fell asleep on my bed because I was exhausted and slept through the whole night
0:18:49Yeah, that was a WWDC. That was the first WWDC was I thought like oh, I'm gonna come back downstairs
0:18:55I'm just gonna go upstairs for a little while
0:18:57but this is actually my brain was tricking me because I was really tired from the time changes.
0:19:00But that was not a "I'm lying down to take a nap" thing.
0:19:04That was, it was like nine o'clock at night already.
0:19:06Which by my measure is a reasonable time for everyone to be winding down the night.
0:19:11But it seems that for most people this is when they think the evening begins.
0:19:15Just kicking off.
0:19:16Yeah, which I find very frustrating.
0:19:18Are you sitting in front of your computer right now?
0:19:20If so, I'd like you to think about something.
0:19:24If your computer crashed, crashed hard, its circuits casting off their mortal coils, what would you lose?
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0:21:06I would suggest that you try the nap thing.
0:21:09Just try it for a little while.
0:21:10And I also want to make a suggestion out there
0:21:13for you and for the listeners is to reframe
0:21:18sleep as part of the working cycle.
0:21:22To not necessarily think of it in the way that you're thinking of it like
0:21:26"Oh, I'm planning in this period of time where I'm doing nothing."
0:21:29I think it's important to reframe this as a necessary part
0:21:34of work. And that is part of the reason why I specifically took time in my
0:21:39schedule to say like the number one thing that I'm going to try to fix
0:21:42is my sleep schedule.
0:21:44And if I have to mess up the rest of everything
0:21:48that I'm working on, like I don't care
0:21:50because this is like the ground base level.
0:21:54If this isn't fixed, almost nothing else matters.
0:21:59So I think there should be a reframing in your mind
0:22:02of sleep as a part of work.
0:22:05- This feels like a long term project, honestly.
0:22:08Like if this is gonna be a thing that I'm able to do.
0:22:11'cause right now I'm listening to you
0:22:13and I'm like, I'm not gonna nap.
0:22:14This might have to be a real long-term thing.
0:22:18I just, I don't know, maybe I need to feel these effects
0:22:23again, right, so this is the first time
0:22:25it's ever happened to me and there's still a part
0:22:27of my mind where it's like, these were really
0:22:29like extenuating circumstances, but there is also
0:22:33a possibility that as I am approaching my 30th year
0:22:36that this is how I'm gonna be now, right,
0:22:39that like every time I come back from a trip,
0:22:41I'm gonna feel like this.
0:22:43So I need to see if that's gonna be a thing that occurs
0:22:46as I take more trips throughout the rest of the year,
0:22:48then I'll maybe consider napping.
0:22:50But right now I'm clutching onto anything
0:22:52that still makes me feel like I'm in my 20s.
0:22:54So not taking naps is one of those things.
0:22:58- I wasn't going to bring it up, Myke,
0:23:00but of course, like, yes, this is one of these things
0:23:06that as, not you, but as one ages, one finds
0:23:11that they need to focus on some things
0:23:14in a different way than they used to.
0:23:17- Well look, I'm not an old man, right?
0:23:19- I did not say that you were.
0:23:21- No, I know that, right?
0:23:22And I know that there's gonna be many people
0:23:24that hear me say as I'm approaching my 30s
0:23:26and they start rolling their eyes.
0:23:27But over the last couple of years,
0:23:29there have been a few things in my life
0:23:31that I have felt change,
0:23:33and I know it's because I'm getting older.
0:23:36- Can you give me an example of a thing
0:23:37that you have noticed as you've gotten older
0:23:39that has changed?
0:23:40Are you able to drink as hard as you used to, Myke?
0:23:43- I would, say I've never really been a hard drinker.
0:23:47- Hmm.
0:23:48- But what I have noticed is if I have any alcohol,
0:23:52I can tell the next day.
0:23:55Like if somebody was to sneak alcohol into a beverage,
0:24:00right, like I would know the next day
0:24:02because I would feel like that they poisoned me.
0:24:05- Technically I think they had.
0:24:06- Exactly, well yeah, yeah okay.
0:24:08Yeah, technically they did.
0:24:09But yeah, I would say that I feel it now
0:24:14in a way that I never did before.
0:24:16Like any amount of alcohol,
0:24:18something like I always get a bad hangover
0:24:20or I feel sick or anything like that.
0:24:22Just my body knows.
0:24:25That is probably the easiest one
0:24:27that I have felt is like, yeah okay.
0:24:31I feel like this is probably a consequence of me becoming older.
0:24:35There's sort of two things in this conversation.
0:24:37One of which is I do think that
0:24:39you do have to be aware that things change over time.
0:24:44And I think you are wandering into the valley that many of us wander into,
0:24:50which is recognizing you have to be protective of sleep.
0:24:54And I always found myself very sensitive to changes in sleep
0:24:59and I think that that is just cranking up as time goes on.
0:25:04And then there's the other thing of just like being aware
0:25:06of your own working habits changing over time.
0:25:10So something I was really interested in was
0:25:14with this last episode of trying to fix
0:25:16my own sleep schedule is,
0:25:19like I've always been very naturally a morning person
0:25:22and I was just having such a hard time booting back
0:25:25into that, that there is a question in my mind
0:25:28maybe it's time to re-evaluate what your schedule actually looks like.
0:25:33Like, maybe this thing that was previously true is no longer true.
0:25:38That waking up super early is like the best way for me to have a good day.
0:25:43I think you have to constantly re-evaluate the way that you work and the way that you set up your schedule.
0:25:51And while I have booted myself back into what for me I know is the ideal situation where
0:25:57I either wake up or I'm pretty much half awake
0:26:01before my alarm goes off anyway.
0:26:04And that's like, "Ah, okay, great. Now I know I'm in the perfect zone."
0:26:07But it took so long to get there
0:26:10that I do wonder, like, "Hmm, maybe
0:26:13this early of a schedule just isn't for me anymore
0:26:16and I'll have to just see over the next several months, like, how do I feel about this?
0:26:21Maybe this is a thing that needs to be adjusted."
0:26:23Or maybe it's just, well, I had an unusually exhausting summer and it just took longer than expected to get back into things
0:26:31because stuff changes over time.
0:26:33But yeah, it's like, I think it's very...
0:26:36This skill of observing yourself I think is one of the most important skills that you need to have.
0:26:43And being sensitive to things don't always stay the same is part of that skill.
0:26:52So Grey, I feel like our listeners are waiting on the edge of their seats for where my parcel
0:26:59is.
0:27:00I don't think they are, but okay.
0:27:02I'm afraid to say that there will be no live unboxing today on the show.
0:27:07Oh, you're not going to treat the listeners to a live audio unboxing of your Apple Watch?
0:27:12Nope, because I have been bitten by the bug that is parcel delivery in that apparently
0:27:22I'm not in my home today.
0:27:24Mm-hmm. Yes. Because they have attempted to deliver to me
0:27:28And couldn't couldn't couldn't find me. So I don't really know what happened. I'm sitting right here. But yeah, that's that so no
0:27:37I'm sorry. I'm sorry cortex listeners
0:27:39there will be no there will be no live unboxing for an Apple watch on the show today because
0:27:42I'm I'm in some other dimension I think
0:27:46I'm sorry Myke. That's okay. You have my you have my sympathies
0:27:51I too have very many a time at the end of the day gone down to the ground floor in my building and discovered
0:27:57Many a letter informing me that I was not home all day to receive my packages that I was waiting for. I feel like
0:28:03you lazy b*******
0:28:06I know what happened. They gave me a delivery window, you know, like we're gonna deliver between 3.15 and 4.15
0:28:15Mm-hmm 4.15 passed
0:28:17Mm-hmm. So oh I see
0:28:20I see, you think there's some shenanigans here.
0:28:22- Yeah.
0:28:23- That somebody is filling out on his tablet
0:28:25that he hit his marks and you just weren't home.
0:28:28- Yeah, because there's always a lot of things to deliver
0:28:32on a new iPhone day, right?
0:28:34'Cause it's also a new iPhone day today.
0:28:37And I expect that they decided
0:28:40that they were just gonna miss me out on my window
0:28:43because he has other windows he needs to hit.
0:28:46- Look at that.
0:28:47Juice in the stats.
0:28:48- Yep, that's how they do it.
0:28:49The great scourge of the world.
0:28:51That's how they get you.
0:28:52And then I want to change my delivery day,
0:28:53but the system is experiencing difficulties.
0:28:56All right.
0:28:57From everybody else who's really angry.
0:28:58Exactly.
0:28:59We're experiencing issues updating
0:29:00your parcel information at this time.
0:29:03Me too.
0:29:04Me too.
0:29:04I'm sorry, Myke.
0:29:07Yeah, it's fine.
0:29:08I'm sorry that you didn't get your devices on day one.
0:29:09It's okay.
0:29:10I genuinely am sorry,
0:29:11because I know this is a thing that is actually part
0:29:15of your job, is getting these things on time.
0:29:17Yeah.
0:29:18Luckily the Apple Watch isn't as much of a problem.
0:29:21If it was a phone I would be in much more disarray right now, but this is just going
0:29:25to be a mild inconvenience honestly.
0:29:27I'll work it out.
0:29:29I've still got a few days before.
0:29:30So you've shown your hand then, you didn't buy an iPhone 8.
0:29:33No I didn't buy an iPhone 8.
0:29:35Oh yeah, we're ever so slightly sneaking towards the iPhone discussion again, which we're not
0:29:39going to have right now.
0:29:40No of course.
0:29:41Because I want to talk about the sleep survey, because it kind of took a real turn, Gray,
0:29:46the Reddit it kind of got a bit out of control. So my original conceit of my ill-conceived
0:29:53survey was one quick question just to try and get a rough idea of do cortex listeners,
0:30:01if given the chance, would they give up sleep? Right? Like that was all the question was
0:30:04for me. It was like, do you prefer to sleep or would you prefer to not sleep?
0:30:07But you know what, Myke, when you were talking to me on the show, I was very confused as
0:30:12as to what your question was.
0:30:13- Okay.
0:30:14- And I was also really aware when I was listening
0:30:17to do my edit of the show, that I still felt like,
0:30:21I don't understand what the hell this guy's asking me.
0:30:23I don't understand, I can't conceptualize
0:30:25what this question really is.
0:30:26- Well you see, 'cause this was the thing,
0:30:27I mean, and I think this is a problem that only people had.
0:30:29Too many people were trying to find this to be
0:30:32like a real scientific survey
0:30:34that I was attempting to conduct.
0:30:36It was just a pure thing of like,
0:30:38if somebody said to you, you can never sleep again,
0:30:41would you take it?
0:30:42That was all I wanted to know.
0:30:43It's like, and it's the idea of,
0:30:45do our listeners feel like they enjoy sleep?
0:30:48I guess is maybe a better way to phrase the question.
0:30:51- Yeah, but no, but-- - Like, enjoy it so much
0:30:52that they would never give it up.
0:30:55That's kind of what I was looking for.
0:30:57- This is like if you have a conversation
0:30:59where someone says like,
0:31:00oh, what superpowers would you want?
0:31:01You have to get out the lawyer to consult
0:31:04about what the details are of the superpower,
0:31:06because it really matters.
0:31:08Where it's like, oh, I'm invulnerable.
0:31:10It's like, okay, well, yeah, let me,
0:31:11we need to go through a few things here.
0:31:13It's like, well, when the heat death of the universe arrives,
0:31:16like, am I still around because I'm invulnerable?
0:31:18Like, well, then I don't want your,
0:31:19like, you need to get out the piece of paper here.
0:31:21And so when you say you don't need to sleep,
0:31:23it's like, okay, well, do I live the same amount of time
0:31:26and my lifespan has just increased a third?
0:31:28Or am I still counting down the same number of hours?
0:31:32Like, this really matters.
0:31:33- Just take it as a, it was all it was,
0:31:35it was just a simple question.
0:31:36Anyway, I know now I've learned a lesson
0:31:40because the Reddit thread is full of people
0:31:42asking me for rule clarifications.
0:31:45- I know, of course. - There was no rules,
0:31:46everybody, like I wasn't trying to set up a world for you.
0:31:49- But you can't answer the question
0:31:51without understanding the rules.
0:31:52- Yes, well, I mean, it was meant to just be like really
0:31:55like a litmus test, a gauge, like just a very rough idea
0:32:00was all I was looking for.
0:32:01- What you really found out is that
0:32:03there's two kinds of listeners,
0:32:05the kind of listeners who don't care
0:32:06and the kind of listeners like me
0:32:08who get out the rules book and they're like,
0:32:09"Okay, well now tell me where on this D&D chart this is going to follow, right? What do you mean by the word chaos, right?
0:32:15That's that's what you discovered."
0:32:17"Oh, do you know what? I can actually see a delivery driver
0:32:20outside my window."
0:32:22"Go, go get him."
0:32:23"I'm gonna try and shout at him."
0:32:24"Go get him. Go run.
0:32:25I don't know if he's gonna make it, guys."
0:32:28"Hey!"
0:32:31"Hey, excuse me."
0:32:33"Here."
0:32:34"Do you have a possible-"
0:32:35[Laughs]
0:32:36I don't think you listeners can hear it, but I just heard Myke through my headphones yelling at the delivery driver to go get his attention.
0:32:44Let's see what happens.
0:32:46I'm sure this is very dramatic for you listeners.
0:32:48I'm sure you're all very invested in whether or not Myke is getting his watches today.
0:32:53Well, there's a... are you sure?
0:32:56No. Alright.
0:32:57No. Doesn't sound good.
0:33:00Doesn't sound good.
0:33:01I don't believe him.
0:33:03(laughs)
0:33:05It didn't sound good when you were coming back.
0:33:09- Sitting outside the window, he's like, "Nah, 62."
0:33:12I'm like, "Whatever."
0:33:13Anyway.
0:33:14- All right, now that you're back, Myke,
0:33:15tell me the results of this sleep survey
0:33:18that made no logical sense at all
0:33:20when you really wanted to just ask people,
0:33:22"Do you like sleep, yes or no?"
0:33:24- For the whole time,
0:33:26from the beginning of the survey to now,
0:33:29it was around 60% to 40%.
0:33:32That's 60% people would say I wouldn't want to sleep and 40% of people said that
0:33:37they would sleep. And even though so many people required rules, there were many thousands
0:33:43of people that filled out the survey without rural clarifications. And basically, my hypothesis
0:33:51that I had in my mind came true, which was that given the chance, most of our listeners
0:33:56would prefer to use that time for something else other than sleeping. That was kind of
0:34:01all I wanted to know really but for whatever reason either I phrased it
0:34:05badly or like just this isn't the type of question you're allowed to ask people
0:34:08I don't know who those people are who filled out yes they'd go without sleep
0:34:14without doing the rules clarification that's as like wishing with a genie you
0:34:18know without getting out the rules as well it's like wow you're gonna get app
0:34:21buddies forever that you didn't ask for if you do that this is one of those
0:34:24monkey paw type situations that's all it is you know you say you can't sleep well
0:34:30that means you lose your eyelids.
0:34:31I don't know like how it ends up being,
0:34:33but like there's a bad situation in there somewhere.
0:34:36But that's not what I was looking for,
0:34:38but that's what I think most people in our Reddit thread
0:34:41were expecting was gonna happen.
0:34:42But purely, it was a simple question.
0:34:44- I feel like you got a real bucket full of internet
0:34:47right there, Myke.
0:34:48That's what I think. - I really did.
0:34:49I got a couple of fistfuls of internet thrown at me
0:34:52over a couple of weeks.
0:34:55And you know what as well,
0:34:56I know this is gonna be one of these things,
0:34:58going to come back to me forever. This is going to be one of those things that in four
0:35:03years time I will still be getting questions about clarifications of the rules of the Sleep/No
0:35:09Sleep Survey.
0:35:10That'll teach you. No more surveys, Myke.
0:35:13Well, yeah, no more surveys. I'm not going to say that though, because I might have surveys
0:35:17in the future. But next time I do a survey, I'm at least going to know what I'm letting
0:35:21myself in for instead.
0:35:23I'll do a survey. I'll ask the people if they want surveys.
0:35:26But what kind of survey is grey?
0:35:29This episode of Cortex is brought to you in part by our friends at Hover.
0:35:33Building your online identity has never been more important and with Hover you find the
0:35:38domain that shows the world who you are, what you're passionate about and what you're building.
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0:35:58we went through lists and lists of ideas that we had. And one of the reasons that we decided
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0:36:12want to be able to protect the identity and that's where Hover comes in. I think about
0:36:16like myself, I have Myke Hurley.net, Myke Hurley.com. I have funny joke URLs like Myke
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0:36:26them because it's part of who I am online. People know what these things are and we find
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0:37:13of your first purchase. I want to thank Hover for their support of this show and for helping me name
0:37:18the things that I care about. Okay so one of the reasons that I've struggled to
0:37:23sleep is that I decided to take on a project tied to the busiest part of my
0:37:31year which was to record an audiobook. Close friend and colleague of mine, Mr.
0:37:37Federico Fattucci, he runs a website called MacStories and MacStories is
0:37:41focused on technology mostly around Apple whether it's iOS devices, Macs, that
0:37:46of stuff. They talk about these types of things. We've spoken about Federico a lot on this show,
0:37:50because he's very good at working on the iPad, workflow, and things like that.
0:37:55He writes a very in-depth and interesting iOS review every year. So he was working on one for
0:38:04iOS 11, where he goes into detail about all of the different features and facets of iOS 11,
0:38:12and the release that Apple put out.
0:38:13- I would say that Federico's review
0:38:16is the definitive review of iOS 11.
0:38:19- Yep, because he explores and talks about everything
0:38:22that is coming into it.
0:38:24And it's really great, you can pick it up,
0:38:25you can read parts of it.
0:38:26Federico's reviews are longer than the types of things
0:38:29that I would usually read.
0:38:31I think I've said on this show many times,
0:38:32like I don't like to read.
0:38:34- You're not a big reader.
0:38:34- I'm not a big reader.
0:38:36I struggle to keep focus and attention on reading books.
0:38:40I like to listen to books, I like audio books.
0:38:42Any book that we've read for the book clubs,
0:38:45all that sort of stuff, I do in audio versions.
0:38:48- Which I have mentioned, I think serves you poorly
0:38:52for some of the books that we have read, but.
0:38:53- Yeah, yeah, but such is like.
0:38:56- I can't imagine reading some of those books
0:38:58without being able to skim.
0:39:00- Yeah, but the thing is I would pay no attention to it
0:39:02and give up if I had to read, like I would give up.
0:39:05It just never would have worked.
0:39:07So I have spoken to Federico a few times
0:39:09about like, you know, why don't you have an audio book version of your review?
0:39:12Like I would love that.
0:39:14It would be an easier way for me and I'm sure many other people to consume
0:39:18the content.
0:39:20And we spoke about this for a couple of years and then I ended up putting my
0:39:23money where my mouth is and I recommended to be the person that would do it.
0:39:27Hmm.
0:39:28We agreed upon it and I did it and it was like 35 hours of work.
0:39:34but I narrated, produced, edited, mastered an audio book
0:39:39for Federico's iOS 11 review,
0:39:44and it's five hours and 22 minutes long in total,
0:39:48and it's available now.
0:39:49You can buy it.
0:39:50There'll be links in the show notes if you're interested.
0:39:52I think it's a really good way of consuming it.
0:39:53If you like podcasts and want this type of information,
0:39:56then go for it.
0:39:57The reason I'm bringing this up today
0:39:58is because there are a couple of things
0:40:00through this whole process that were interesting to me.
0:40:04The first of them being deadlines and bosses.
0:40:08[laughter]
0:40:10Because I've not really had either of those things imposed on me in a while.
0:40:15Well, don't you think- but this- all of the shows that you do are deadlines.
0:40:20Mhm.
0:40:21Like, I think of you as imposing deadlines upon me with regards to this show.
0:40:25Like, the podcasts are deadlines.
0:40:28Yep. I impose deadlines on other people.
0:40:31Nobody really imposes them on me.
0:40:33I choose the deadlines, right? Like, I choose them.
0:40:36All the deadlines that I have these days are deadlines that I chose.
0:40:41The deadlines for this were not chosen by me.
0:40:44I mean, in some instances they were chosen by Apple, like, whenever Apple wants,
0:40:47because we don't know when iOS 11 is going to come out,
0:40:50until like, a week before it comes out.
0:40:52I always forget that. For some reason, in my head, I'm always thinking that
0:40:56that is a... that the release date is announced at WWDC, but it isn't.
0:41:00So there is like a time frame that you can work to, but so like there are these issues where like,
0:41:05we didn't know when it was going to come out, so there was like this deadline being set by the
0:41:09universe. And then, you know, also in working with Federico, like I'm working for him,
0:41:14I'm producing this book for him, he will put deadlines on me of like, this is when I'm going
0:41:19to need it. Like they can announce it on this date, but I'm still going to need it X amount
0:41:23of time before that. So that was interesting. Yeah, there's some amount of, you need to have
0:41:28it ahead of time to get it ready to actually go up. And I had like a real boss, right? I had someone
0:41:35setting the tasks, I had someone providing me with the material, they would set deadlines,
0:41:41they would make approvals and request me to make changes. I have not done something like this in
0:41:45a very long time. How did you feel about having a boss? Like are you going to badmouth your boss
0:41:50on the podcast? He was, no, he was fine. Because it was also, it's a collaborative thing, right?
0:41:58but there were parts of it that just reminded me
0:42:02of having a boss and working in a process.
0:42:06Because they would give me something,
0:42:08I would make something out of it,
0:42:09and they would be like, "Oh, you gotta change this word.
0:42:11"You gotta reread this sentence.
0:42:13"You haven't done this in the right way."
0:42:15This is what it was like when I was writing
0:42:17advertising copy at the bank.
0:42:19That was this process.
0:42:21And it's been a really long time since I've done it,
0:42:23and it was very interesting.
0:42:25It was illuminating for me.
0:42:27I'm illuminating how.
0:42:28- It was both better and worse than I expected
0:42:31in its own weird and interesting ways, right?
0:42:34Like I have worked for myself for long enough,
0:42:36which makes me believe that I could never work
0:42:38for anybody ever again.
0:42:40But like, it was fine.
0:42:42Like it wasn't a problem for me to be told what to do.
0:42:47- Yeah, like, okay, you say that,
0:42:51but I think this is such a different situation
0:42:53because you essentially talked yourself into doing this,
0:42:56- Right, you really bullied your way into a job
0:42:59where like there needs to be an audiobook version,
0:43:01there needs to be an audiobook version.
0:43:02- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:43:02- And eventually you're like,
0:43:03I'm gonna make an audiobook version.
0:43:04I don't think this is a normal boss-employee relationship.
0:43:08- No, it's not.
0:43:09Well, that's why I'm saying it's like it's better and worse,
0:43:12right, because like the better part is that,
0:43:14oh, it was fine, and the worst part is realizing that,
0:43:16oh, maybe it's true all along
0:43:17and I actually can't do anything that people tell me.
0:43:20Right, but like just the idea of the process,
0:43:23when we started out, like I was thinking like,
0:43:25"Oh, I'm gonna be a real diva here."
0:43:28And be like, "Nobody can tell me
0:43:29how to pronounce things differently.
0:43:30Like, you know, like I do them my way
0:43:33that like, I know what to do here."
0:43:35But then when they would hand things to me and be like,
0:43:37"Oh, you should change this because of this."
0:43:39It was like, "Oh, okay, you know, that makes sense."
0:43:41Right, so it was interesting,
0:43:43it was illuminating to me in the instance
0:43:45of I was able to break out of my own ego
0:43:49and actually work with people in this way,
0:43:54which is different to how I work
0:43:55because like in my mind, it's like,
0:43:57oh, I'm the professional here, right?
0:43:59Like I know what I'm doing,
0:44:01but I was still able to receive criticism and feedback
0:44:05in a way that I was concerned that I might not be able to
0:44:09because I've been out of this world for so long.
0:44:12- Hmm.
0:44:13- So that was an illuminating thing for me,
0:44:16which I found to be very useful to know,
0:44:19at least like for future projects and stuff like that, right?
0:44:22Like that I am aware of the fact
0:44:24that I'm able to take on this type of feedback and make changes.
0:44:31Like it was useful for me to know that I have not completely lost those skills
0:44:36when I was concerned that maybe I would have.
0:44:39Hmm.
0:44:40Because for all of my projects, like, I tend to be the final say on most of them.
0:44:48Or at least if I'm not final, I feel like I have as much say as everybody else because
0:44:55it's a collaborative effort.
0:44:56But this really was a project that I was turning in.
0:45:01This was somebody else's work that I was just reading.
0:45:05I am merely a method of delivery.
0:45:09You're a cog in the machine, Myke.
0:45:10That's what you are.
0:45:11And if there were changes that I felt should be made because they sound better to read,
0:45:14kind of thing, I had to confirm them with the person whose work I was attempting to
0:45:18change. I didn't have complete agency in this as I do in my other work. And so it was
0:45:25an interesting experience in that way of becoming a cog in a machine again. I was part of a
0:45:32team producing a thing, but it wasn't my original work. So it was a very different
0:45:41thing which felt a lot more like being part of a job again because that was what it was like.
0:45:46I was flexing those muscles again. Like the creative work that I would put together for
0:45:51a piece of mail that went through somebody's letterbox, the artwork, I didn't make that.
0:45:57It wasn't my idea. Somebody in a design agency made the artwork. I just approved it and turned
0:46:04it into a thing and put it through where it needed to go, right? Like it was very much like that
0:46:09again and it was just surprising to me that in that instance like that was a
0:46:15thing that I was able to still deal with work with and be happy with so it was it
0:46:23was illuminating to me because I wasn't sure when I undertook this project what
0:46:28it was gonna be like to be a part of a thing which I don't really have much
0:46:34control over.
0:46:35Are you going to give up Relay and go back to the bank?
0:46:40Yeah, that's what I'm building to here.
0:46:43As I was wondering, if you found you've missed it and you want to go back to the bank?
0:46:48I didn't miss it.
0:46:50I didn't miss it in that way, right?
0:46:53It was an interesting learning experience for me, but this isn't how I want to do my
0:46:56work, like every single day of my life.
0:47:00It was exhausting to produce this thing because it felt completely different to podcasting
0:47:11in a way that I wasn't expecting.
0:47:16You mentioned there about having to check with the original author if you wanted to
0:47:20change the wording of anything.
0:47:22This is a thing with the written word that it totally sounds different when you speak
0:47:28it aloud. And there's lots of ways that people write and read things that are totally fine when
0:47:33they're being written and read, that if you actually say it out loud is awkward. Like,
0:47:39I don't know what Federico's writing process is like, but I'm gonna guess he probably doesn't
0:47:47have an out loud draft. And so then you are the person who is doing the out loud draft and you
0:47:54you need to check with him.
0:47:57And I just, I happen to know that when companies
0:48:01commission the audiobooks versions to be made,
0:48:04like they do like to have the authors read it
0:48:07if the author has a reasonable enough voice.
0:48:10But one of the other reasons why they like
0:48:12to have the author read it is because it closes that loop
0:48:15of the author can then, in the recording booth,
0:48:18live just make the changes to say like,
0:48:20"Oh no, it is better if I just say it this way."
0:48:22And they don't need to confirm with anybody
0:48:23because like we have the author right here. He's the guy reading the book right now.
0:48:27But you could not do that when you're actually recording the thing.
0:48:31And I think it's, like I imagine it's gotta be
0:48:35pretty tiring to
0:48:39read aloud long stretches of
0:48:42something that somebody else has written.
0:48:45Like a thing that is not in your authorial
0:48:49voice or is not the way you would say things.
0:48:52It's tricky because you're constantly in the mindset of knowing it's not you and the
0:49:02presentation is different.
0:49:05The way that I'm talking now is just coming out of my brain, right?
0:49:10So like the things that I'm saying and the way that I pitch my voice and all that sort
0:49:13of stuff, it's just the way that somebody naturally speaks.
0:49:16It's like, you know, like the way that your voice takes the little rhythm that it takes
0:49:19and goes up and down here and there.
0:49:21It's way harder to do that sort of stuff when the words are already created because
0:49:27you can either read them through and practice it a bunch of times, or you do what I did
0:49:30where it's like, "Well, I'm just reading it, and if it doesn't sound right, I'll
0:49:34go back and fix it."
0:49:35Or like, "I'll say something and be like, 'Oh, it doesn't sound right, so read it
0:49:38again, read it again, read it again.'"
0:49:41And then there's like words that all of a sudden, like, they're just not in your
0:49:44mouth anymore.
0:49:45Like, this sentence of three, four, five words that somehow is impossible for you to say,
0:49:51And it's like, why is this happening to me?
0:49:53This, you know, it's tiring.
0:49:55It's tiring work because you are, your brain is working at a completely different rate.
0:50:00Because like, as I'm talking to you right now, I'm like looking around and I'm looking
0:50:03at a document in front of me and there are just like things that happening and it's,
0:50:07it helps kind of just focus my mind because there's all this stuff and I can talk and
0:50:11make silly hand gestures.
0:50:12But like, I'm looking at this page and I'm just reading the words on this page.
0:50:17And it is like a, it is a very, very different experience in a way that I wasn't quite expecting
0:50:23it to be.
0:50:24And like the way that it made me feel, like me and you will sit here for like three, four
0:50:29hours, like three or four hours and we'll record this show.
0:50:32I would sit in front of the microphone for 45 minutes and I felt like I was going to
0:50:36pass out.
0:50:37[Laughter]
0:50:38Okay, so I've never done an audiobook but I think the closest I'm realizing as you're
0:50:43talking about is my experience is doing the ads for the podcasts.
0:50:48Well I thought you were going to say like doing the scripts for your YouTube videos.
0:50:52That's probably what it's closest to. No but that's different because that
0:50:56that is a thing that is in my voice that is also designed to be written out loud.
0:51:00Yeah okay. The reason why I'm saying the ads is because like I have to concentrate so hard when
0:51:07I'm doing the ads and part of that part of that is like hearing you describe doing the audiobook
0:51:12It's the same thing that it's
0:51:15like when we're talking
0:51:18The words just happen like if you if you pay attention
0:51:21You don't even really know how you talk or how sentences are formed in your head
0:51:25Like it just kind of comes out and you're talking or like or like you say as I'm talking to you right now
0:51:30I'm moving my hands
0:51:33Even though you're not here to see that I can hear you moving your hands even when you say it
0:51:38It's it's just part of how conversation occurs
0:51:42But reading a thing that has been written for you to read is just more different.
0:51:51And so yeah, I always find it's like, wow, the ads really take a lot of mental focus.
0:51:57And this is exactly the reason, it's the same thing you're going through with the audiobook.
0:52:02That it's because it is not in your voice, because it's a sentence that might not have been read aloud by the person who's originally writing it.
0:52:10It's just a different experience.
0:52:12So I'm thinking like if I was in a situation where we said like,
0:52:16"Hey, you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna record all of the year's Cortex ads in advance in one go in an hour."
0:52:22I feel like I would be thoroughly drained by the end of that.
0:52:28So I can easily see that when you're doing the audiobook,
0:52:32a 45 minute stretch is like as far as you would want to go before taking a break.
0:52:38I'm really curious to know how long like a real professional audiobook narrator goes
0:52:44for?
0:52:45I can't even imagine it honestly like I can't. The most I could do was an hour at a time
0:52:50and I would have to take a break. Like if I would sit and talk for an hour and that's
0:52:55like you know I'm not like speaking constantly for that hour you know like for every minute
0:53:00maybe I was taking 10 seconds right like you know that I would take like maybe a couple
0:53:04minutes here and there to like just relax and then like take a drink of water and just
0:53:09like go over things in my head and just like get ready to start speaking again. But if
0:53:15I would do that process for more than an hour, like I just couldn't do it anymore. Like I
0:53:20just have to get up and walk away. It was a very interesting and illuminating process.
0:53:25I wasn't expecting it to be as hard as it was to do. It was a surprise to me. I thought
0:53:33that it was like I do this all the time like this is no problem I speak for a
0:53:37living like fine my what my throat was getting horse that doesn't happen to me
0:53:45mm-hmm like we will finish today and I'll be fine but I would spend a day
0:53:53maybe recording like three or four hours for that day and I could barely talk in
0:53:58the evening there were just so many things about this process that were
0:54:01But surprising to me in that way that it was like, "Oh, I just think I'll just be able
0:54:04to transfer my skills.
0:54:05It won't be a problem."
0:54:07But a lot, obviously, it was easier for me because I knew I had to, like the edit was
0:54:11fine, right?
0:54:12Like I could edit things together.
0:54:13You know, there are points where like two halves of one word are two completely different
0:54:18times of me speaking, right?
0:54:19And like no one would ever know because like I've just gotten good at that over time, but
0:54:22that was easy to do.
0:54:24But...
0:54:25Yeah, that's a more direct transfer of skills.
0:54:27But I was expecting there to be a greater transfer of skills for the speaking part than there was
0:54:32Obviously there are a lot of things
0:54:34Sorry
0:54:34Like I can present things to people in a way that they can understand because I'm used to speaking and enunciating
0:54:39Right, like that is a thing that I have built. That's a skill that I've built
0:54:43But it was just surprising to me how taxing it was
0:54:46To speak for long periods of time in that way now for all these screenshots that Federico includes in his review
0:54:53Did you paint a word picture for the people, right?
0:54:56So this is part of it. How do you do that?
0:54:58These were things that I had to do all like every time something is in
0:55:02parentheses.
0:55:03You have to use the parentheses voice.
0:55:05Everybody knows like there's a parentheses voice you use when you're talking.
0:55:08I use that voice, but when you come back on the other side of it,
0:55:11if it's not written to be done that way, it's really tricky.
0:55:15And like, so there was stuff that I had to move around there,
0:55:17or there were times when Federico would include a very small string of code.
0:55:23How do you read that in a way that makes any sense to people?
0:55:26You read it in a computer voice.
0:55:28You have to pretend that you're a robot in that moment.
0:55:30Yeah, that's exactly right.
0:55:31And a string.
0:55:32Yeah, exactly.
0:55:34You have to, you have to be the Snellatron for a moment there and read it like that.
0:55:38Yeah, it was, stuff like that was very tricky.
0:55:40And so I think that's part of it is that I, I had to pay complete
0:55:46attention to every word that I was reading in case anything
0:55:49like that was going to happen.
0:55:50So like the attention as well I think is what added to the fatigue.
0:55:54Like it was just a complete like you must focus.
0:55:58You know and I expect a lot of the ways that audiobook readers get around a lot of this stuff
0:56:04is spending a lot of time reading the text beforehand. I didn't have time to do that.
0:56:08Well actually when you just said that I was just wondering
0:56:12because I mean again Federico's Reviews
0:56:16It's a lot of words. Like do you know how many, what the word count was for the book in the end?
0:56:21I don't know off the top of my head. No.
0:56:23It's gonna be like, like they are novella sizes. I think we can we can fairly say.
0:56:29But I'm just realizing
0:56:31though that it's it's not like
0:56:35it's not like he's just gonna finish the book on on one particular day and then hand it to you and it has to
0:56:40like there's not going to be enough buffer time between when he thinks the review is finished because the review
0:56:46I know is being like tinkered with until the absolute last possible second. So I'm I'm gonna guess
0:56:53That you must have gotten
0:56:56Segments as it's gone along like this segment is close enough. Just go
0:57:00Yeah, that was how we decided to do it
0:57:02Like there would be chapters that could be completed in advance and I was just completing each chapter as they were coming to me
0:57:09But it was a short period of time right like the ones that were done early they were done in like early August
0:57:16because they were easy to do, they were done.
0:57:19But then there was a bunch that were done
0:57:21within a week to 10, 14 days of the thing being released.
0:57:27So there was a real time pressure to having everything done.
0:57:35So with me also trying to work my usual life
0:57:39at the busiest time in my working year.
0:57:44- Right, so during high iPhone season,
0:57:47when your life is the busiest it's going to be,
0:57:51you also decided to add in another 35 hour project
0:57:56just on top of that for funsies.
0:57:58- So there wasn't enough time for me to sit
0:58:00and read the entire thing multiple times before I read it.
0:58:04So I had to read everything as it was happening
0:58:07and would make changes as I needed to, right?
0:58:10So I expect that one of the ways
0:58:12it is less mentally taxing is by having already gone through it and having the text in your mind
0:58:18in some way because you probably then need to think less about what you change and what you
0:58:24don't and how you present things. Because I know that there is a part of my brain that is able to
0:58:29capture this stuff because when I edit this show four or five days sometimes after we've recorded
0:58:37it, my brain knows the parts that need to be taken out without me knowing it. We'll
0:58:44get to a section and I'll be like, "I'm gonna cut this part," or like, there's a part where
0:58:48I'm like, "Oh, I know I re-say this in a moment, in a clearer way, so I'm just gonna cut that."
0:58:53But I don't actively remember these things. I don't note them down, but it's just floating
0:58:57around somewhere in my brain. So I'm confident that if I would have been able to sit and
0:59:03read that book in advance, it would have been easier for me to record it. But I didn't
0:59:09have the luxury of that time. Because the deadline was anytime.
0:59:14It's like you were doing just-in-time audiobook production.
0:59:20That was it. Yep, that was it. Audiobook on demand. So it was interesting for that as
0:59:28It's like, I don't have that in my life.
0:59:30Like, if there is a deadline I can't meet,
0:59:33there are steps that I can take to change it.
0:59:35There was nothing that we could do about this.
0:59:38If it was ever gonna happen, it had to be on that day.
0:59:41- Right.
0:59:42- And so, yeah, that was interesting as well.
0:59:44The other part of this, which I've never done before,
0:59:49was answering the question of,
0:59:51how much should I pay you for this?
0:59:53- You mean, how much are you, Myke, going to charge
0:59:57for the production of the book.
1:00:00- Yeah, so Federico asked me the question,
1:00:02how much shall I pay you?
1:00:03I didn't know how to answer that question.
1:00:07- Well, Myke, haven't you spent a bunch of time
1:00:10tracking your time so that you know exactly
1:00:12what your dollar value is worth every hour?
1:00:15Haven't you done this?
1:00:15- Yes, and that was how I actually ended up
1:00:17coming to the figure.
1:00:18Right, is I had a rough idea of what I believed
1:00:23my hours were worth, but the other thing is
1:00:25I didn't know how long it was going to take me.
1:00:27- Yeah, that's the other problem.
1:00:29- I didn't know what was fair.
1:00:31I didn't know how good it was going to be.
1:00:34Or if anyone would even want to listen to it.
1:00:36It's like all of these questions going around in my mind,
1:00:38it's like, so really I didn't know how much money to charge.
1:00:42Now I picked a number, we agreed upon the number.
1:00:45I didn't want to go too high, right?
1:00:47'Cause it went, it felt like if I go too high
1:00:49and this sucks, like this guy's one of my best friends.
1:00:53Like I don't want to, you know,
1:00:55Like there were so many things in writing on this decision
1:00:58that made it really tricky.
1:01:00I actually, we ended up on an amount of money
1:01:03that I think was fine for my time.
1:01:05It actually ended up being pretty much exactly
1:01:08what I consider my hourly rate to be
1:01:10for the amount of time, like the amount of hours
1:01:13that it took me to put this thing together.
1:01:16But I had no idea that was gonna be the case
1:01:18when I set out on the project.
1:01:20So it was an interesting experience for me
1:01:22and like somebody saying to me,
1:01:23how much shall I pay you for this? And then I had to weigh up a bunch of factors that didn't
1:01:28have any monetary value to them to pick out an amount.
1:01:31Yeah, I mean, you've got a couple of things here because, yes, of course, this is
1:01:36where you do have the complication of you're working with someone who is also a friend,
1:01:42which always makes things harder.
1:01:44Interesting. Makes them more interesting.
1:01:46[laughs]
1:01:47And we could say interesting, but it's like, or perhaps less clear, right, is another way
1:01:52to put it, right? The waters are a bit more muddied because it's always tricky to separate out these
1:01:59kinds of things. And yeah, like you said, you don't know how much it's going to,
1:02:06how many hours you're going to be putting into this kind of thing. You're describing part of the
1:02:13problems which in some sense where you as the cog in the machine in theory don't really have to
1:02:19worry about the market demand for this product, right? That is the burden that the employer
1:02:25should be taking on. He's making a calculation that people will want to buy it and he's paying
1:02:29it for you. But you as someone who also is running a business can't help but be running that side of
1:02:35the equation in your head. So I can see why it's a very hard thing to figure out what is it that you
1:02:40actually want to charge in the end for this thing. But I'm glad that you came to what you think was a
1:02:45fair price. Yeah I think it ended up working out okay right like I didn't
1:02:49feel like I was paid not enough or too much. But at the time when we were
1:02:57setting that price I had no idea what that was gonna end up looking like. I
1:03:01also do know that like even though I feel like it was a fair price I would
1:03:05have to change that price in the future. Well at the very least you know you see
1:03:09it came out to be what your hourly rate is but but like this is one of the
1:03:14things when people do time tracking and figure out what their hourly rate is.
1:03:17Your hourly rate is is also like you're kind of like your break even rate,
1:03:21because it's really it's a question of opportunity cost of
1:03:24this is how much you make per hour working on your own things.
1:03:28And so it's the it's the break even rate for any other project.
1:03:34Yeah. And also, do you know what?
1:03:35That is not the same amount of money.
1:03:38That is my hourly rate for doing what I'm doing right now.
1:03:42I don't know what my hourly rate should be for audiobooks, because audiobooks are harder to make than podcasts.
1:03:47Right, yeah, and that's a thing that you have to factor in as well.
1:03:53It certainly sounds like if you spent the morning working on audiobooks,
1:03:57that would dramatically limit the number of podcasts you could probably schedule in the remainder of that day.
1:04:04Yep.
1:04:04So you wouldn't want to have three hours of audiobooks followed immediately by three different shows, I'm gonna guess.
1:04:12Well, because I was squeezing this in places that I don't want to work as well. It was
1:04:17going in the weekends, it was going in the evenings, I was consumed by this project for
1:04:22a period of time. So all of this lends into, would I do it again, and if I do, how would
1:04:28that look like? And yeah, well, one, who knows if I'm ever going to get the opportunity
1:04:34again, right? This might be it for you because I'm not paying for that guy again. Nobody
1:04:39knows. So, you know, but it was an interesting, it was a very interesting project. It was
1:04:46illuminating because I think this is the first thing that I've done, which has not been a
1:04:52podcast since I became self-employed. I can't think of any other work that I've completed
1:04:59to be paid for during this period of time. So it was illuminating to me to see that,
1:05:05to see what that process would be like to have that feeling of producing something different.
1:05:12I think I just like making podcasts, great.
1:05:14So you're not going to spin up an audiobook production house on the side?
1:05:19No.
1:05:20I have no interest in doing this for anybody other than Federico.
1:05:24Like if he asked me to do it again, I have no doubt that we could come to an agreement
1:05:28that we would both be really happy with and I would do it again because on the whole,
1:05:31I'm happy that I have this thing that I've made because I think that it's good
1:05:36and I've heard from a lot of people that have enjoyed it and
1:05:40you know like I wanted to make this because it would help people like me that
1:05:46want to consume something but struggle with it and there has been an
1:05:49interesting side effect of hearing from people that for whatever reason are
1:05:56unable to read this but are now able to consume it in a way that they can
1:06:01actually get the information when they've always wanted to but couldn't
1:06:03that's been like a really nice side effect of this but that doesn't mean that
1:06:08I want to turn this into a business you know like these are the reasons why
1:06:11given the opportunity I would consider to do this again but it's not like well
1:06:18now I want to read every article that anybody ever writes and you know that's
1:06:22that's not a thing that I want to do but I now know I now know I have this
1:06:26feather in my cap. Like I know I can make an audio book now. And there are things that I would do
1:06:32differently if I was ever going to do this again. There were processes that I would have that are
1:06:35different, but I don't consider this as part of my business. So for audiobooks, you only have eyes
1:06:41for t.g. That's what you're saying. I think that might be true. Yeah. All right. Well, people should
1:06:47go check it out. They should. Yeah, there'll be links in the show notes. I really think that this
1:06:51This is a valuable resource if you work on iOS
1:06:54or do anything, you just enjoy using iOS.
1:06:56There's a lot of information in here.
1:06:59I know that in reading this book,
1:07:00there were a bunch of things that I found out
1:07:02about an operating system that I've been using
1:07:04for three months and had no idea it could do.
1:07:06Because typically people don't spend
1:07:11six months of their life devoting themselves
1:07:13to a thing in the way that Federico does.
1:07:16So yeah, I think there's a lot of information
1:07:18that's interesting, I think that it is well produced.
1:07:21And so it is available for you to go and purchase if you would like to.
1:07:24And I think that you should.
1:07:25Yeah. I have to say, I always look forward to Federico's reviews of iOS.
1:07:29Like he just, he does just do such a, such a great job.
1:07:32And I find the exact same experience of, Oh,
1:07:36I've been on the betas for several months and come across information that I did
1:07:40not know or like details of, Oh, this is a way to do a thing a little,
1:07:43a little more smoothly. That's why I say, I feel like his,
1:07:46his reviews are really the definitive reviews.
1:07:50So also like if you are interested in this kind of stuff,
1:07:52like I highly recommend them.
1:07:54And this year you can go listen to Myke
1:07:57read the audio book version of this review.
1:07:59Listen to his sultry tones.
1:08:01Talk about iOS 11.
1:08:03- The conclusion especially,
1:08:04I put a lot into the conclusion.
1:08:06I put on my best conclusion voice.
1:08:09- I'm not sure what a conclusion voice sounds like.
1:08:15I'll have to go listen to the conclusion to find out.
1:08:17- Yeah, it's the only way you're gonna know.
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1:10:24So Gray, we move on to what some people will consider to be the main event of this episode.
1:10:31For good reason. I want to talk to you about the iPhone. So there are multiple iPhones.
1:10:39We have the iPhones 8, the 8 and the 8 Plus, and the iPhone 10.
1:10:45I want to know what you think about them.
1:10:46I know you think this is going to be the main event, but I actually don't have a whole lot
1:10:53of thoughts on this iPhone release.
1:10:55It's not about what you say, right?
1:10:58It's about people just want to know.
1:11:00Including me, because I don't even know what you think about these phones.
1:11:05So it's not like Gray's about to drop a bomb of knowledge on us all, it's just like, what
1:11:10do you think about them?
1:11:12Well, this is the first year in a long time where I didn't even watch the keynote live.
1:11:20What?
1:11:21Why?
1:11:22Yeah.
1:11:23It's a long story that ends with, I was in the foothills of Bavaria on an internet connection
1:11:30that was being herded to me bit by bit on the back of sheep. So I was not able to watch
1:11:37it live. I wasn't even theoretically able to watch it until days later. So this is actually
1:11:44one keynote event that I have not seen. I've only simply read articles later and then gone
1:11:51on to Apple's website to take a look at stuff.
1:11:53So...
1:11:54>>
1:11:54If you've looked at the website though, you know what you need to know, right?
1:11:57Like the website really actually does a better way of displaying the product than the keynote
1:12:01video does because that's the point of it.
1:12:03Yeah, it is a thing where I sort of thought like, oh, I'll watch the keynote after.
1:12:09But this is one case where watching it live is very fun.
1:12:13Watching it not live...
1:12:15It's not, yeah.
1:12:16Watching it not live, I become very aware of...
1:12:22How to put this...
1:12:23Even when Apple is going fast, there's a kind of very low information density in a
1:12:34keynote presentation that I think just...
1:12:37I'll read some reviews and I'll look on the website and I'll get the
1:12:44information from there that I need to. So that is how I have consumed the
1:12:48information about iPhone X and the other iPhones.
1:12:51There we go, there we go, that's what I was really waiting for.
1:12:55Okay, so we got that going on.
1:12:57There's nothing I can do about it everybody.
1:12:59I will say I wish that it was called the iPhone X.
1:13:01It's not what it's called.
1:13:03If there was any question about what Gray was gonna call it, that question has now been
1:13:08answered.
1:13:09So…
1:13:10Well, I mean if you just read it, that seems like the way it should be said.
1:13:14Well, that's why I constantly stumble over myself now.
1:13:19Are you-- now, so this is a--
1:13:21I feel like this is a kind of professional question.
1:13:24Are you going to on your--
1:13:27because you, Myke, you're an actual professional tech
1:13:31person reviewing and talking about things.
1:13:34I just happen to do this show with you
1:13:36when we talk about tech, but this is literally your job.
1:13:39Are you going to make the effort to call it iPhone 10,
1:13:44Even though you must know in your heart of hearts
1:13:49that the vast majority of the human population
1:13:52will forever call this the iPhone X,
1:13:56like you know that's going to be the case, right?
1:13:58- Yeah, people that are unaware
1:14:04will call this thing the iPhone X forever.
1:14:08- Like the iTouch.
1:14:11- Worse than that.
1:14:13and for more reason because it was never called the eye touch like
1:14:17eye and then touch were never written together like that's just something that people said
1:14:23and they were wrong and i don't really know why that happened that people just forgot that the
1:14:27pod existed in between the middle of those two things it was like it was too funny not to say
1:14:33but people would say it with dead seriousness i don't like that that one that one i did it's not
1:14:39I don't dislike it because it's wrong, I just think that that sounds ugly.
1:14:42I touch. But the X, it says it, right? Like that is the letter X. It's what it is, right?
1:14:53So I understand that people are going to call it the iPhone X. It's why I keep calling it
1:14:58the iPhone X accidentally. "Exidentally" you could say.
1:15:02No, we could not say that.
1:15:04I mean you could, I'm not saying you would want to, I'm just saying that you could say it if you
1:15:09wanted to. But no, it is the iPhone X and I will call it the iPhone X and I will endeavor to call
1:15:15it the iPhone X for as long as the iPhone X exists. Because that's the correct pronunciation
1:15:22of the product, that's what it's called, right? That is what it is. It's like I don't call it
1:15:27it ifn. Right? Like I don't, you know, it's the iPhone. Right? Like I do my best to say
1:15:33it the way it's supposed to be said as opposed to how it may look.
1:15:37Sorry, I could not, I was like, I cannot parse what you think if that was not registering
1:15:42in my brain. But I'm confused, Myke, because you say wunderlist.
1:15:48Right, because that's correct. Like it is a product made in Germany. Right? It is wunderlist.
1:15:55Right, like that is what it is.
1:15:57What was your other one? You want to say "to doist"?
1:15:59To doist. I mean, and don't even get me started on this, Gray, because if you ask Siri things about todoist,
1:16:07I have found in my tests, Siri just wants to do it. Doesn't understand what todoist means.
1:16:14And I've honestly had people tell me, "Just say it like 'to doist'."
1:16:18I'm like, "Oh, it's come back to bite me, that one." Right? So there we go. I got that going for me.
1:16:24So that's what Siri thinks.
1:16:26So you as a professional, you're going to go for the iPhone X.
1:16:30I'm going to call it the iPhone X because that's the name of the product.
1:16:33I was just curious, I just pulled up the Apple webpage
1:16:36because obviously I know that it's supposed to be called the iPhone X.
1:16:41I'm going to devote 0% of my brain to trying to do that.
1:16:45But I was curious to say, let's imagine I hadn't been aware of this
1:16:50and I wasn't the kind of person who tries to watch the keynote
1:16:52to watch the keynote and then realizes,
1:16:53oh, it's super boring when it's not live.
1:16:55And I just went on to the Apple page
1:16:57where you can buy the iPhone X
1:17:00and wanted to see, does it say 10 anywhere on the page?
1:17:04And as far as I can tell, it does not.
1:17:07There is nowhere on the page where they write it out
1:17:10and say the word 10.
1:17:11No, they wouldn't do that, right?
1:17:12It's like they never did that for OS X.
1:17:14Yeah, and that is the reason why I think
1:17:18It might not have been until maybe 10.5 or 10.6,
1:17:23like years and years later,
1:17:27until I even ever first heard someone say OS X on a podcast.
1:17:32I was shocked because it was a thing that I only,
1:17:35I'd followed Apple relatively closely,
1:17:37but at that point in time it had only been
1:17:39just through like a text-based pre-podcast internet.
1:17:42I just had never ever heard anybody say the word
1:17:46of the Mac operating system.
1:17:48I see, but that was the different thing for me,
1:17:50is that the majority of time that I was familiar with OS X,
1:17:53I'd heard it being said, right?
1:17:56Like I didn't have a time in my life where I was hearing,
1:18:01or like just reading OS X in my brain
1:18:04without there being podcasts or videos
1:18:07or whatever it was I was consuming at the time,
1:18:10where I would hear people call it OS X.
1:18:13The other one, which is an interesting example,
1:18:15is Final Cut, 'cause it's Final Cut Pro.
1:18:17And I thought Apple's position was that it's Final Cut Pro X.
1:18:21Like I thought that was the name.
1:18:23- I believe that is the name.
1:18:25- But the thing that I'm wondering is,
1:18:28actually I bought like a professional course
1:18:31to review some of the details of how that works,
1:18:34'cause it was kind of like redoubling
1:18:35my efforts in the program.
1:18:37And they keep pronouncing it Final Cut 10.
1:18:40So I wonder if it really is 10 in terms of Apple speak.
1:18:45It just raises, like, what is Apple's position on Final Cut?
1:18:49I'd be curious for someone to find in a keynote
1:18:53where is someone on an Apple stage saying the name
1:18:57of Final Cut? Do they say X or do they say 10? I now have
1:19:01enough doubt in my mind that I bet they say 10 when they talk about Final Cut.
1:19:05So, the new Final Cut Pro X. Although I think it's probably been a long time since Final Cut
1:19:09has been on center stage at an Apple event, but still.
1:19:13still. Anyway, I think you're making the correct decision for you as a professional person,
1:19:19but I think this is going to be such an incredible tidal wave in the opposite direction of everybody
1:19:24in the world is calling it iPhone X. And I think Apple is 100% to blame for that.
1:19:29And I would assume that they know this.
1:19:32So why do you think that they do it then?
1:19:35I don't know.
1:19:36I think they didn't want to put the number 10 here, right?
1:19:43They didn't want it to be iPhone one zero.
1:19:47I think that they wanted to call it the iPhone 10
1:19:53because the idea of the phone being from the future,
1:19:57we have the iPhone eight and the iPhone 10
1:19:59because this is a phone that is the future's phone today.
1:20:03And I'm not really sure why they chose the X.
1:20:07Like, I know why they called it 10.
1:20:09I think that the reasons for calling it 10 are fine, right?
1:20:12Like that idea of it being the future.
1:20:14I can't fully put my finger on why they would choose
1:20:17the Roman numeral when they've removed
1:20:19the Roman numeral from the Mac.
1:20:22Like it's just Mac OS and then a name now.
1:20:25There were a lot of other options
1:20:27that Apple could have gone with
1:20:28with the name of this iPhone,
1:20:29which wouldn't have been numbers at all,
1:20:31which also would have worked.
1:20:33Apple makes interesting choices at naming products.
1:20:36They always have, they always will.
1:20:38Most of them don't make sense
1:20:40when you put them under a microscope.
1:20:42This one is the same.
1:20:44Like when you start to really think about it,
1:20:45like why did they do this?
1:20:47Because somebody liked the way it looked
1:20:48on a poster probably.
1:20:49Like that's probably as far as it goes.
1:20:53They're like when you go to their website,
1:20:55what do you see when you go to that page?
1:20:57A huge colorful X when you go to the page.
1:21:01I think that was just all they wanted.
1:21:03like futuristic, weird, it's an X, it's not a number one zero.
1:21:08Like they wanted to keep, for whatever reason,
1:21:11they wanted to keep it to be sequential, right?
1:21:13That there could, in theory, be an iPhone 9 still.
1:21:16Yeah, I don't know.
1:21:19I don't think iPhone 9 is going to happen.
1:21:22I have a hard time imagining.
1:21:23It depends.
1:21:24There are a lot of things that have to happen between now and next year
1:21:28for there not to be an iPhone 9.
1:21:29And that means that they have to be able to produce
1:21:33more of these edge-to-edge screen phones which as it looks like right now where we're sitting
1:21:39at the end of September, it is difficult for Apple to produce them. They're coming out
1:21:43later and there are lots of rumors of supply chain problems and there are also, you know,
1:21:49this phone's been heavily rumored as potentially it was supposed to be here last year. So I
1:21:55don't know. I think that they have to be able to produce this phone at scale maybe in multiple
1:21:59sizes for there not to be an iPhone 9 next year. And I personally where we sit
1:22:05right now I think that the jury's out on that one. It's an interesting question.
1:22:11I expect that the the pre-order and wait period is going to be a real bloodbath
1:22:16with this. Yep. The kind that we have never seen before. I think
1:22:22that I think you'll be lucky you will be lucky if you get one of these in 2017. I
1:22:27I think you will be lucky.
1:22:28You might be right about that.
1:22:30The AirPods delay is going to look like nothing compared to this is my expectation.
1:22:34Yep.
1:22:35Because there are a lot of people saying that the iPhone 8, whilst it looks like a great
1:22:38phone, it looks like the people were waiting because they want the latest and greatest
1:22:41phone, which I get.
1:22:43I'm in that camp myself.
1:22:45But I want to know what you think.
1:22:47What do you think of these phones?
1:22:49What is your opinion?
1:22:50What do you want?
1:22:51Why do you want?
1:22:52What do you hate?
1:22:54about these phones interest you or doesn't interest you? Do they at all? Like, what is
1:22:58your opinion on what's going on here?
1:23:00I actually decided that I'm just going to get the iPhone 8 this year. Like, um...
1:23:05Okay. Okay.
1:23:06Yeah. That's actually not going to happen. No, that's not going to happen at all.
1:23:09Oh, wow! You have me! You got me, man! I was like... But the thing is, though, great, you
1:23:14make a lot of really weird decisions when it comes to your iPhone, so like, it wouldn't
1:23:18have surprised me.
1:23:19[laughs]
1:23:20No, I'm not gonna get the eight. I'm going to hold out for the X and I'm hoping to get it this year.
1:23:29Not in 2018, but depending on how many milliseconds it takes me to fill out my order at the exact
1:23:38stroke of whatever it is, 10.01 a.m. in San Francisco.
1:23:45Yeah, it may take a while longer, but I mean I'm interested in the phone. I think it looks really good
1:23:51but the really the biggest deal for me is is simply that it is a
1:23:57a new form factor which I
1:24:00have been I have been unhappy with the form factor from Apple for the last
1:24:07four years, you know starting with the iPhone 6
1:24:11Which I really didn't like and I think they've refined and made the design better over time
1:24:17but I still just the physical size and interaction of the device has never
1:24:22never been
1:24:24What I wanted out of a phone and I feel like I've always been
1:24:27Trading off different amounts of unpleasantness for different advantages. Yep. So
1:24:33That's why I am more excited about
1:24:36the
1:24:38new iPhone than I have been about an iPhone in the past four years. And I can say that's genuinely nice
1:24:44to feel. Like I'm excited to have a different form factor,
1:24:48to try it, like I feel like I'm gonna really try to love this phone and really just
1:24:55get used to its size, and I'm hoping its in-between-y size is better for my personal use.
1:25:03Like there are, obviously there are a bunch of cool features and interesting things about the phone,
1:25:07But for me that is that is the number one biggest deal is it is a different
1:25:12Form factor and and that is what I want to to try out most with this new phone
1:25:18Yeah, I think that there for people that like the plus people like me and you there are gonna be some interesting trade-offs here
1:25:25Like what is what is this actually going to be like?
1:25:27Mm-hmm, but I think that on the whole I'm gonna be happy with this phone
1:25:31I mean, I will just say let me ask you a quick question. Actually. Do you think it is attractive?
1:25:36Yeah, I think it's a good-looking phone.
1:25:38Does the notch bother you?
1:25:39No, it doesn't. I think this is this is a case where
1:25:43I'm totally fine with the notch because I understand the like limitations of what they're trying to do.
1:25:50Mm-hmm.
1:25:51I can totally understand the reason for making this decision and I think it's fine. Like I'm perfectly acceptable about this.
1:25:58Yeah.
1:25:58What I think is a more
1:26:00interesting
1:26:03question is
1:26:04Is Apple going to decide to just stick with this notch as like, "This is what iPhones look like from now on,"
1:26:14as a almost like a branding decision to distinguish them from other phones?
1:26:19Or is Apple going to try to get rid of the notch as quickly as possible?
1:26:22And this is a question I feel like I don't have a really solid opinion on that.
1:26:27I can blow in the wind either direction based on who's talking to me at that point in time.
1:26:33I could see Apple saying, "No, we're going to keep this notch there because it will always
1:26:39allow us to be able to jam in more and more sensors like in this dedicated area."
1:26:44Or I could see them just getting rid of it as fast as they possibly can.
1:26:47I don't know.
1:26:48Like, what do you think about that?
1:26:50As you can imagine, I do have a very solid opinion on this.
1:26:54Okay.
1:26:55I think that they will eventually remove the notch, but they're not going to rush for it.
1:27:03I would expect that Apple are working as quickly as they can to find ways to do this, but there
1:27:08is an in-between time which they will embrace. And I believe that over the next few years
1:27:14they will keep that notch, they may make it smaller, they may change it in shape, but
1:27:17they will take that space to put more sensors in to make things like Face ID better and
1:27:23to give themselves some time to work through a lot of that stuff. And I think a good example
1:27:29of their thinking behind this type of stuff is the Apple Watch. The Apple Watch has had
1:27:34three revisions now and the case hasn't changed because they have been spending the time to
1:27:39stuff in what they need to stuff in. You look at the previous iPhone, you know, the iPhone
1:27:44has had a chin and a forehead, which has been pretty much the same proportions for 10 years,
1:27:49whilst they were getting everything into the phone that they needed to get into the phone
1:27:53before they felt like they could push the screen to more towards the edges. I think
1:27:57I'll do this with the notch.
1:27:58I think part of the reason the notch is there,
1:28:00part of the reason that it looks the way it does,
1:28:02is so Apple can differentiate themselves in the market,
1:28:05because if they created a phone
1:28:07that was completely flat on the top,
1:28:08it would look just like a Samsung,
1:28:10it would look just like an LG.
1:28:11And you can love or hate that design,
1:28:13and that's totally up to you,
1:28:14and that's why consumer choice exists.
1:28:16But I think this is part of it,
1:28:18and I think the reason that they're asking developers
1:28:21to develop around it, they want people to fill the screen,
1:28:23is this is the way that Apple wants the iPhone to look.
1:28:26The outlines that they have of the iPhone on the page,
1:28:31or literally on their store page,
1:28:33they show the notch in the outline.
1:28:36They want the outline of a phone
1:28:39that they make to look like this.
1:28:41I've long thought, and I especially noticed this
1:28:43when I was working in my advertising job,
1:28:47'cause there would be times when I would have to
1:28:50buy some stock artwork,
1:28:54and I would want to buy stock artwork of a smartphone
1:28:58because I would need it.
1:29:00All stock artwork of a smartphone looked like an iPhone.
1:29:03- I definitely ran across that with animation stuff
1:29:06when I used to use clip art.
1:29:07It's like, you know what a phone looks like?
1:29:09It looks like an iPhone.
1:29:10- Apple created, there is no argument about this,
1:29:14I will not accept one.
1:29:16Apple created the defacto image
1:29:19of how a smartphone with a touchscreen looks.
1:29:22It is a rectangle with a screen in the middle with some space on the top and
1:29:27some space on the bottom. And for close to 10 years,
1:29:31every smartphone had that basic design to it.
1:29:35They created that design language. Then over the last year or so,
1:29:41maybe the last two years,
1:29:42companies like LG and Samsung have created
1:29:46overall new designs because the screens look different.
1:29:51the front of the phone doesn't look like an iPhone anymore. They look different. LG created
1:29:57one that went all the way to the edges, but you could still see the front and then Samsung
1:30:03created their infinity display where it kind of bleeds off the sides. They created designs
1:30:09for phones. Now both of these phones look different and the outlines of these phones
1:30:14look different because companies have found ways to finally push the technology past what
1:30:18have become the de facto standard. I believe that Apple decided to make some decisions
1:30:25for this phone. They wanted to have face ID because they wanted to get rid of the touch
1:30:30ID. They didn't want to put touch ID on the back. So they had to put the cameras in. There
1:30:34are two decisions. You either make a thin forehead, you just chop off the top, put the
1:30:39sensors in and you're done. Or you have the screen bleed around the sides in a big way,
1:30:45in a way that nobody else is doing.
1:30:47The Essential phone just has a camera in there.
1:30:49It's a little one in the middle.
1:30:51Doesn't look like the iPhone.
1:30:52The iPhone has this big black bar that goes across the top.
1:30:56I think that they decided that they wanted to create
1:30:59what they believe their smartphones are gonna look like
1:31:02for potentially the next 10 years.
1:31:05This is the design they chose for that
1:31:07because whether you love them or hate them,
1:31:10Apple are sometimes the biggest,
1:31:13sometimes second biggest handset manufacturer.
1:31:16They have to make a design that they think
1:31:18makes sense for them.
1:31:19And they moved away from the chin and forehead
1:31:21and they went for the notch.
1:31:23This is the iPhone.
1:31:25This is what they believe the future of phones
1:31:27is gonna look like.
1:31:28And this might be what ends up being stock photography
1:31:31in five years, but what will probably be,
1:31:33it would look something more like an LG.
1:31:35But Apple decided they didn't wanna look like
1:31:39what a phone looks like.
1:31:41they've made their phone look weird and different in its own way.
1:31:46Well I think of, I always like seeing little signs that say like "No cell phones allowed"
1:31:51like if you know in various places.
1:31:53And it's just it's always interesting to see like what is chosen as that little symbol
1:31:58and I would say in many public places in a city it's still overwhelmingly the 1990s cell
1:32:06phone like a little keyboard with a wire sticking up on the side.
1:32:09I just think is funny and aachronistic in this way.
1:32:14Like an icon for what a phone looks like is a phone that nobody has used in forever.
1:32:20And then you do see places that use the iPhone-looking phone.
1:32:24Like a no phone's allowed symbol or like here's the thing for your phone.
1:32:28But there is an interesting thing that I will give Samsung that their phones are
1:32:34I don't know how to put it more elegant or more simple in their design,
1:32:39but you do run into the problem that you can't just use a rectangle as a symbol for a phone.
1:32:46It has to have something that's a little bit more recognizable than just a rectangle if you're talking about very simple iconography.
1:32:54And so it is, I do think it's an interesting question of like, what will
1:32:58the thing that is the outline of the phone with the notch, like will that start showing up as a generic
1:33:04symbol for phones
1:33:06In the same way that the like clearly an iPhone of the past showed up everywhere as a generic symbol for phones
1:33:12I don't know, but I'm I'm willing to bet that at the very least a
1:33:17Standard rectangle with nothing to distinguish it is not going to show up as an icon for a phone
1:33:23Because it is not iconic enough. There is nothing to identify it and this is where I wonder if Apple is deciding
1:33:29To just stick with it
1:33:32Because I do think that it does give you the advantage of having a space where you can always stick new sensors and new stuff
1:33:43without having to worry about how does this interact through a screen that isn't display.
1:33:48They have given themselves some leeway.
1:33:52Yeah, and it's like, you know, even if let's say we had the technology to put all of the stuff underneath a screen right now,
1:33:59you don't necessarily know what other sensors you might want to add.
1:34:03And there's no doubt that the question of, "Can you add a sensor?"
1:34:08versus "Can you add that sensor also underneath a screen?"
1:34:12the second thing is harder to do.
1:34:14And so if you leave yourself space,
1:34:18you can potentially put stuff in sooner than you otherwise could
1:34:22if you also had to figure out how to get it under a screen.
1:34:26I wouldn't be surprised if they keep the notch around, but that said, I wouldn't be surprised if in three years Apple says, "Oh the hell with that, we're just going all screen as well."
1:34:35I really don't have a strong opinion on this one, but I am glad that we're in a phase where it is fun and interesting speculation time about what Apple's up to.
1:34:47As opposed to, "Oh, it's the iPhone 6 again." But just with some changes.
1:34:53changes. And the iPhone 8 looks like a great phone. Like the iPhone 8 looks like a better
1:34:58revision than the 7 from the 6. Oh yeah. But it is being completely overshadowed.
1:35:04Yeah. I'll put it in air quotes, the wireless charging. I think that is a really great
1:35:10addition and that's a thing that I'm looking forward to. And I am also really glad that
1:35:15Apple put the wireless charging in the 8 because I feel like anything Apple can do to push
1:35:23that farther and faster with adoption everywhere, like everybody benefits from that and that's
1:35:30great.
1:35:31Choosing an open standard is a surprise but awesome move.
1:35:34I'm very happy to see Apple choose an industry standard with Qi charging, like that's great
1:35:41As opposed to, like I don't want to go into a Starbucks and there's the pad for Apple
1:35:46devices and there's the pad for everything else.
1:35:48Like, ugh.
1:35:49Don't need that.
1:35:50Like anything we can do to make charging easier and everywhere, that's great.
1:35:56So like I am super glad that they're putting the wireless charging in the device that's
1:36:01going to sell way more just to like encourage the spread of that faster.
1:36:05So are you going to be waiting?
1:36:06Are you going to be putting in an order?
1:36:08What do you mean, for the iPhone 8?
1:36:10- For the iPhone X.
1:36:12- Oh yeah, no, of course for the iPhone X, without a doubt.
1:36:16I would like it in my hands as soon as possible,
1:36:19but I am mentally preparing myself for the notion
1:36:23that this may take forever.
1:36:24- Yeah, you may just be going to Apple stores
1:36:27and fondling them for a while.
1:36:29- Yeah, exactly.
1:36:29Like, do you mind if I just use your phone in the store
1:36:32for several hours?
1:36:34Can I set it up?
1:36:35Like, no, you can't do that, so you have to put it down.
1:36:37Like, oh.
1:36:38or like I did when the iPad Pro came out
1:36:41and I was trying to ask the Apple employees,
1:36:43can I buy your store display of the pencil off of you?
1:36:47And they're like, no, you can't,
1:36:48we have to leave the pencils here.
1:36:49So I'm very excited about it,
1:36:53but I'm preparing myself in advance for it's like,
1:36:56well, it's going to be a long time until the pre-order
1:36:59and get ready for a longer time of actually waiting
1:37:04for it to really ship.
1:37:05- The waiting is the hardest part.
1:37:07Yes, the waiting is the hardest part.
1:37:09There's gonna be a lot of sad Christmas trees, I think, this year.
1:37:13I'm not looking forward to it. You know, if you think that my delivery woes today were one thing,
1:37:19boy oh boy, that's gonna be something else.
1:37:22Something else.