52: CORTEK - WWDC 2017


00:00:00   I finally did it.

00:00:01   What'd you do?

00:00:02   We're in the same place.

00:00:03   We're working on something together in the same place.

00:00:06   It's really uncomfortable because Myke is looking directly into my eyes.

00:00:09   Where else am I gonna look?

00:00:11   Well, you do this when you record in person.

00:00:13   For the listeners, I'm looking to the side of the room.

00:00:16   I'm not looking directly at the mic.

00:00:17   No, I don't. You didn't know this before we started,

00:00:19   but I will be locking eyes of you for the next two hours.

00:00:23   Oof.

00:00:24   I think I'm not sure I would have agreed to this if I had...

00:00:26   Are you really going to look...

00:00:27   No, I'm not.

00:00:27   Okay, thank God, because it's really weird.

00:00:29   There will be times where I'm gonna, like right now I'm looking at you but I'm not gonna look at you for the whole time.

00:00:33   Okay, I appreciate that.

00:00:35   I'm looking down now.

00:00:36   Thank you.

00:00:36   We're at WWDC again.

00:00:38   We are.

00:00:39   But last year you made me record in a hotel room.

00:00:43   And you were in your hotel room and we used Skype.

00:00:45   Yes, that's true.

00:00:46   But this year, you suggested, "Why don't we record in person?"

00:00:49   I didn't suggest it.

00:00:51   I feel like you did.

00:00:52   I didn't, I didn't suggest it.

00:00:54   You suggested it.

00:00:55   Okay.

00:00:56   And here's the thing, I agreed.

00:00:58   because I have a lot of audio equipment in my room right now that I really didn't want to unbox.

00:01:02   Ahh, that makes sense.

00:01:04   Okay, put the burden on me.

00:01:06   Last year I was all set to go and I was thinking,

00:01:08   "Oh, I think shows are better if you record separately."

00:01:11   But this year I just didn't really feel like unboxing all of these boxes,

00:01:16   so here we are together in the same room.

00:01:18   Have you thought about the potential issue if you really enjoy this?

00:01:25   No.

00:01:25   We'd have to record in person all the time?

00:01:28   Well, that's fine.

00:01:29   Okay.

00:01:30   You can come out to me every time we record a show.

00:01:32   To your office?

00:01:33   No, I can have a rental space.

00:01:36   The recording studio?

00:01:37   Yes.

00:01:38   You can go to the recording studio?

00:01:39   Yeah, we can have a central London cortex recording studio.

00:01:42   Okay.

00:01:43   But I don't think this is going to happen, Myke.

00:01:44   Okay, well we'll see.

00:01:45   You never know.

00:01:46   You might like it.

00:01:47   I don't know.

00:01:48   I'm feeling very uncomfortable right now.

00:01:49   Would you like to turn around?

00:01:50   I am very surprised that we're looking at each other face to face.

00:01:55   I did consider, I did consider, why are you shaking your head?

00:01:59   It would have been so ridiculous.

00:02:00   I did consider us facing in opposite directions in the same room, but I

00:02:04   thought, let me try not to be a burden upon other people.

00:02:07   Well, the whole time I will be turning around to look at you.

00:02:10   Think what's he up to over there?

00:02:12   That's what you were thinking.

00:02:13   Well, I just like, I'd say something, you know, I turn around and be like,

00:02:16   what do you think?

00:02:17   But that wouldn't make any sense.

00:02:19   It wouldn't make any sense.

00:02:20   No, no.

00:02:22   So I mentioned it, but we're in San Jose for WWDC.

00:02:25   So we recorded last year at WWDC in San Francisco.

00:02:29   So this is Apple's developer conference.

00:02:31   And we just come here to hang out, right?

00:02:33   We have like a bunch of friends who attend the conference

00:02:35   and there's a lot of periphery events

00:02:36   and we were doing some stuff at Relay FM.

00:02:39   And what do you think of San Jose?

00:02:41   - Well, I'm really glad because last year

00:02:44   I wasn't 100% sure if I was going to go to WWDC

00:02:48   And I ended up just sort of going to see the thing.

00:02:52   And now I am doubly glad that I went last year,

00:02:55   because I have a frame of reference to compare

00:02:58   the last San Francisco WWDC to the now San Jose WWDC

00:03:03   that everybody's talking about,

00:03:06   ooh, what are all the differences?

00:03:08   And I would have felt very left out of 40%

00:03:11   of the conversations about how San Jose

00:03:13   is different from San Francisco.

00:03:14   So I'm super glad that I went to the one last year,

00:03:17   just for the comparison for this year.

00:03:20   I mean, in many ways I have no business being here.

00:03:24   I'm not here as a developer,

00:03:27   so I have a very different perspective on it,

00:03:29   but my feeling from what I've seen is it seems like

00:03:33   San Jose is a total win for the conference

00:03:35   on almost every single metric,

00:03:39   and then there's one metric that everybody agrees

00:03:41   it's not a win on, and that's not a metric I care about.

00:03:43   So for me, it's ticking 10 out of 10 boxes

00:03:46   for better location than San Francisco.

00:03:49   - Yeah, the metric that I'm assuming you don't care about

00:03:51   is that bars don't open as late.

00:03:53   - Yeah, bars close early, restaurants close early,

00:03:56   and on all the conversations,

00:03:57   everybody's complaining about it,

00:03:59   and I'm sitting there secretly thinking, yes.

00:04:01   - It's like, I get an excuse to go to bed.

00:04:03   - Yeah, or like it pushes us into more reasonable,

00:04:06   more quiet locations.

00:04:08   - That's true.

00:04:08   - Oh no, we can't be at a loud bar until one in the morning?

00:04:12   Oh, what a shame.

00:04:13   I was like, actually, tick in the plus column.

00:04:16   So I think it's great.

00:04:18   - Yeah, I think I've spent more time in the hotel bar

00:04:20   than I would usually.

00:04:21   And I do actually agree with you.

00:04:23   Like last night, there was some kind of rowdy party

00:04:26   going on in the hotel bar.

00:04:28   So we came back from like a meal,

00:04:30   and we come into the hotel,

00:04:31   and there were just these two groups of tables,

00:04:33   about eight people on them,

00:04:34   and they were just shouting at each other.

00:04:36   Like just at the top of their voices,

00:04:39   nothing was happening,

00:04:40   but these people were just shouting,

00:04:41   and we're like, oh, I want anything to do with this.

00:04:43   So we all just bundled into my hotel room

00:04:45   and just sat around chatting

00:04:47   and there was like eight of us for a while

00:04:48   we're just hanging out.

00:04:49   And that was way nicer 'cause that's what I like

00:04:52   and one of the things about a lot of these conferences

00:04:54   is really what you wanna do is just hang out with the people

00:04:59   and talk to your friends

00:05:00   'cause not only are we catching up

00:05:01   there's also just a lot to talk about this week

00:05:03   and everybody's sharing things that they found out

00:05:06   and pieces of information and experiences.

00:05:08   So people just wanna do that

00:05:09   But those places are usually where alcohol is served

00:05:13   and where bars are and stuff like that.

00:05:15   So it gets a bit tricky.

00:05:16   Like it reminds me of whenever we set up meetups.

00:05:18   So we did a meetup here and I've done a few in London now.

00:05:22   I always have to spend extra time explaining to the bar

00:05:25   or the venue that we're in that I want the lights on

00:05:29   and no music.

00:05:30   And they can't understand why what they think

00:05:34   is gonna be a party would want that.

00:05:36   And I'm like, people are just gonna be talking to each other.

00:05:38   Like music makes it worse.

00:05:40   - It's not a party.

00:05:41   - We don't want music, please no music.

00:05:44   But I agree, like this is a vastly superior location

00:05:48   than downtown San Francisco for an event like this.

00:05:52   Basically for WWDC, the majority of attendees

00:05:56   and the majority of people that are coming

00:05:59   to attend periphery events, like me and you,

00:06:01   we don't leave like a four or five block radius

00:06:05   of the hotel or the convention center.

00:06:08   And that area of San Francisco, as we discussed last time,

00:06:12   it's not a nice part of San Francisco.

00:06:14   - No.

00:06:15   - And I mean, I don't know how this five block radius

00:06:19   of downtown San Jose compares to the rest of San Jose,

00:06:22   but it is vastly superior to that of San Francisco.

00:06:25   There's, again, there are food options, there aren't as many.

00:06:30   There are bar options, there aren't as many.

00:06:32   None of them are open as late.

00:06:34   But it works out just fine.

00:06:37   Like, I know why people have been looking for those things,

00:06:40   but like you, I'm really good with what we've had.

00:06:43   And there's a nice little coffee place near our hotel,

00:06:46   and it's been really nice,

00:06:48   and I feel like I can walk around the streets

00:06:50   and not worry about things like I do

00:06:52   when I'm in San Francisco.

00:06:54   So I mean, I think that everything has been a big win.

00:06:57   - Oh yeah, yeah.

00:06:58   And when you go to these places,

00:07:00   it is a thing that I'm very aware you're judging a city

00:07:03   on a three block radius.

00:07:06   - Yep. - Right.

00:07:06   San Jose, I know the whole city.

00:07:09   I know three streets, right?

00:07:11   It's like that is the entire perspective,

00:07:13   but the reality of it is that is the conference world.

00:07:17   So those streets matter a lot.

00:07:19   And where we were in San Francisco

00:07:22   and where the conference was,

00:07:24   those streets were an apocalypse.

00:07:27   They were terrible.

00:07:28   I'm sure there are plenty of lovely areas of San Francisco.

00:07:30   - I've been to them.

00:07:31   - But the place that the conference was,

00:07:34   it made San Francisco seem like a dystopian hellscape.

00:07:37   - Yeah, it's like there is a bunch of lovely places

00:07:40   in San Francisco, but you're either gonna be staying

00:07:44   like a 20 minute journey away from where everybody is

00:07:47   or like everyone's gonna have to pile into taxis

00:07:50   and go out for any dinner, like it doesn't work.

00:07:53   It's just where the venues are and the area

00:07:57   around the convention centers here and there

00:08:00   are just populated differently.

00:08:01   - Yeah, and the tightness of the radius adds

00:08:03   to the experience because it dramatically increases the probability of running into

00:08:08   people, which is nice, which I also think is an additional benefit of San Jose is it

00:08:14   really does feel like WWDC has descended upon this area, which was population-wise much

00:08:23   smaller than the same block radius in San Francisco. And I have had the experience numerous

00:08:28   times of walking between the various hotels because I'm on my way to go see a thing or

00:08:34   go meet a person and while doing that bumping into somebody else and being able to say hi

00:08:38   quickly and that's really nice. Like that's such a nice experience that it almost makes

00:08:44   it like a like a faux college campus for a brief period of time which is great. Like

00:08:50   that's what you want for this kind of experiences. Oh I have chance random encounters with people

00:08:56   that I know or that I've just met. And it's very nice.

00:08:59   WWDC has completely taken over. Like San Francisco takes the conference in its stride.

00:09:05   It's like it doesn't make a difference because there's always a conference or there's always

00:09:09   something.

00:09:10   Yeah, I was really aware of that feeling in San Francisco of walking out of the hotel

00:09:14   and standing on the street and feeling like, "Oh, I have been absorbed into the metropolis

00:09:19   of San Francisco." And the probability of bumping into someone was very low. I think

00:09:24   I think the number of times I bumped into someone on the street from the conference in San Francisco was maybe once or twice at most in the whole time that I was there.

00:09:33   Because I think it changes the mindset. Like, whilst all those people were also there, you don't pay attention to people as they're walking around because they're just Joe Schmo going to see Alcatraz, right?

00:09:46   The other thing that I think helps with that feeling is,

00:09:49   I don't know if I just tuned into it less in San Francisco, but it feels like the developers have these really identifiable jackets.

00:09:56   Okay, so there are jackets every year, but the jackets this year are more...

00:10:01   They stand out a lot more.

00:10:03   Yeah, they really do. They have these really... They're very cool looking black jean kind of jackets.

00:10:08   They're black Levi's jackets. They're Levi's denim jackets, which Apple kind of branded with WWDC17 on them.

00:10:15   Like previously they were these kind of like hoodie type things, big numbers on the back.

00:10:19   So they were actually in theory more noticeable because it was people walking around with

00:10:22   huge numbers on their back, but they were so nondescript that you kind of would blank

00:10:27   them out.

00:10:28   Yeah, I can't even remember what they look like, but I feel like these jackets are super

00:10:31   distinguishable and then a plus that I really like is I've heard from the people who have

00:10:37   been inside the conference that they're able to do some kind of scavenger hunt for all

00:10:41   of these pins that they're getting on the jackets.

00:10:44   And I find my brain really tunes into these little pins like a little Swift pin or a smiley

00:10:49   pin.

00:10:50   It seems like there's some kind of scavenger hunt going on.

00:10:52   And what I think this is great for, just an idea for a conference, I think that it is

00:10:56   a genius conversation starter because you have the thing where you can identify, "Ah,

00:11:02   here's the jacket, the person's at the same thing."

00:11:05   And it gives you an in with almost everyone to be able to say, "Oh, what did you get

00:11:09   that pin for?"

00:11:10   They're also encouraging, like it does encourage swapping and trading.

00:11:15   WWDC this year, again, so just from talking to people who have been inside and/or standing

00:11:20   at the outside of the convention center past the barriers and longingly looking at the

00:11:25   convention center, that's been my experience of it so far.

00:11:28   Yeah, but before we started recording I was telling Myke that the saddest I have been

00:11:32   so far was on keynote morning I thought, I'd just arrived in the city and I thought, "Oh,

00:11:37   I'm going to go look and see what the conference center looks like.

00:11:39   And I went out there to take a look and I just felt like the saddest

00:11:45   excluded person on the outside because I have no badge. And then to,

00:11:48   to top it off, I'm looking at, Ooh,

00:11:50   the conference center looks amazing and there's this huge exciting line.

00:11:53   And as I'm standing there looking on the line,

00:11:56   like my friends start waving to me from the cool insider part.

00:11:59   And I was just like, it might,

00:12:00   the skies might as well have opened up and rained down upon just me and that

00:12:04   moment.

00:12:05   Just this one column of rain going right down.

00:12:08   That is 100% how I felt in that moment.

00:12:10   I was like, oh, I'm so sad.

00:12:14   But so yes, that is our experience

00:12:16   from outside the conference.

00:12:18   But it's--

00:12:19   - It's more festival-y.

00:12:20   - Yeah, that is exactly it.

00:12:21   It feels like there is this festival

00:12:24   throughout the whole thing.

00:12:25   People are engaged in all of these different activities.

00:12:27   All of the peripheral conferences are literally next door

00:12:32   or just across the street.

00:12:33   so you can pop between different things.

00:12:35   It's been really great, it's really fun.

00:12:38   I think even as someone who's not directly participating in it,

00:12:41   the collectible pins are a genius idea

00:12:45   that other conferences should totally pick up on

00:12:48   as a way to encourage communication

00:12:51   and recognizability around conference attendees.

00:12:54   - So I've been to a conference that did this,

00:12:56   and I actually think this is the conference

00:12:58   that inspired Apple to do this.

00:13:00   So the last XOXO in Portland,

00:13:03   when you checked in, they gave you three pin badges,

00:13:06   but there were like 12.

00:13:08   And if you found one you wanted,

00:13:11   they were encouraging pin exchange

00:13:12   and they were like on the slack

00:13:14   and they have like an XOXO slack for attendees.

00:13:16   They have like a whole room for like pin swapping.

00:13:20   And the pins are so reminiscent

00:13:21   because there's enamel pins and all these colors.

00:13:24   I think that they might have like

00:13:25   crypt the idea from there, but it's great.

00:13:27   It's a great one.

00:13:28   - Yeah, whoever came up with, let's say XOXO came up with it.

00:13:30   It's a great idea.

00:13:31   - It doesn't matter.

00:13:32   It's fantastic. - It doesn't matter.

00:13:33   like you'll see someone and be like,

00:13:34   oh hey, I love your pen, I love that one,

00:13:36   and you'll swap and you'll chat,

00:13:37   it's like it's a nice thing,

00:13:38   and as you say, basically there are certain events,

00:13:42   certain talks or sessions, as Apple calls them,

00:13:45   that if you went to them, you were given a badge.

00:13:48   So like, and it was also, I think it's a way for them

00:13:51   to encourage attendance, like there was a special badge

00:13:55   for the accessibility sessions.

00:13:57   - Oh, okay, that is total genius, yeah.

00:13:59   - It was either the session or the labs,

00:14:01   In the labs you go and talk to the engineers

00:14:04   so they can give you advice on it.

00:14:05   So if you went and participated in that,

00:14:08   so to help people who have different disabilities

00:14:11   use your applications, they will give you a pin.

00:14:14   - That is so smart.

00:14:16   I've been aware of talking to some,

00:14:18   okay, so here's the thing that I would just

00:14:20   never normally do.

00:14:22   Because everybody is so recognizable

00:14:24   and because of the pins, I have on occasion

00:14:27   struck up conversations just very briefly in the elevator,

00:14:30   which is the thing I would never do,

00:14:33   but it's like it's begging you to do it,

00:14:35   and some of the pins are really interesting.

00:14:37   And so I've just said, oh, what was that one,

00:14:39   where'd you get it from?

00:14:40   And I've been aware that some of them

00:14:42   seem rarer than others, but I didn't realize

00:14:45   tying it to session attendance is another great reason

00:14:50   to do that, to encourage people.

00:14:52   I guess we want as many people to just come

00:14:54   to the accessibility session so that they're aware

00:14:57   of what exists.

00:14:58   That is really great, it's really great.

00:15:00   - And if you think like a conference like this,

00:15:02   there's so much standing in lines,

00:15:04   you know, like you're lining up for everything.

00:15:06   Having an ability to be able to turn around

00:15:08   and talk to someone is great,

00:15:09   'cause so many people come on their own,

00:15:11   or like they know people that are here, but aren't inside.

00:15:15   - Right. - Right?

00:15:16   Like I have, I know a bunch of people who like,

00:15:19   I know who they are, like we're friends,

00:15:22   but they don't know anybody inside.

00:15:24   - Right. - Or like I've spoken

00:15:25   to a bunch of people in the same way, right?

00:15:27   like none of their coworkers got a ticket, just them.

00:15:29   So they're going in and like it seems like,

00:15:32   well I mean it seems like it's nice in there,

00:15:33   I wouldn't know because we don't get to go in.

00:15:37   But it looks like it enables people to talk to each other

00:15:40   in a fun way and I think that's really good.

00:15:42   - Yeah it is. - I do think

00:15:43   that's really good.

00:15:44   But Monday you mentioned the keynote.

00:15:47   So it was quite a day.

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00:17:36   We watched the keynote together, which you got to see me scream in a bunch I think, was

00:17:41   something that you experienced.

00:17:43   Yeah, there was excitement all around on all sides.

00:17:46   It was really fun.

00:17:49   I think again to compare the experience last year versus this year.

00:17:52   I really, I really like going to WWDC last year.

00:17:56   I felt like we had a very,

00:17:59   very great time watching the keynote last year at the Twitter headquarters.

00:18:04   It was awesome to be invited to that and it was super fun.

00:18:07   That was the first time I had ever had the experience of watching a keynote,

00:18:12   not by myself.

00:18:14   I hate the other ones watching the other ones now because when,

00:18:19   The WWDC I've for the last like four years watched the keynote of other people.

00:18:23   So when like the iPhone event comes around and I'm just sitting in my living room with Tim Cook on the TV, it's so boring.

00:18:30   Like the WWDC stuff I always watch on my own.

00:18:33   But the iPhone keynote event, my wife is always very interested in that.

00:18:38   And so we at least watch it together.

00:18:41   And she's very excited.

00:18:43   So I always feel like, oh, we watch the iPhone event together.

00:18:46   I was like, "Oh, poor glass of wine. We'll sit back and now impress us, Apple.

00:18:51   Show us your magic."

00:18:55   So I have a very nice association with that one.

00:18:57   But the WWDC one for the past many years has always been like, "Oh, I'm just a sad nerd on my own watching it."

00:18:59   Please tell me about APIs.

00:19:05   Yes.

00:19:07   The API slide went by so quickly.

00:19:08   I'll have to wait for the technical keynote.

00:19:10   Yay!

00:19:13   Yay!

00:19:13   It was really interesting and a very interesting experience to watch it last year at Twitter in a room full of people.

00:19:14   year at Twitter in a room full of, I don't know, must have been 50 people.

00:19:18   There was a lot of people. There was a lot of people there. They had great food. Oh my god.

00:19:22   Yes, I swear, I swear, Twitter if you're listening, I still think about your

00:19:26   breakfast burritos. Oh god, it was so good. Every once in a while I'll just remember like, that breakfast burrito

00:19:31   at Twitter is so good. If I remember you were on a real strict carb diet at that point,

00:19:35   you were just like, it's going out of the window today. Yeah, that was,

00:19:39   it was too good, it was too good to pass on. But so again, it's great this year

00:19:43   to have a mental comparison because this year was a very different experience because there

00:19:47   were, I don't know, eight of us?

00:19:48   There was eight of us.

00:19:50   Eight of us in a hotel room watching it and obviously were people who have come to WDC

00:19:55   were all really interested, really invested in what's happening and that felt like another

00:20:00   whole very great way to watch the keynote with a smaller group of friends and also because

00:20:07   you know everybody in that room, you know what particular people care about or are interested

00:20:11   So even in some of the sections where I'm less interested,

00:20:14   it was still fun to see the reactions of my friends

00:20:16   who I know like, oh, for them, the Mac section,

00:20:19   like they're really interested in what's happening here.

00:20:22   And like I didn't come into this with big hopes for that.

00:20:25   So it was like, I really enjoyed

00:20:26   having those different perspectives live in the room.

00:20:29   So it was really fun, it was really fun.

00:20:32   - Yeah, and also in those scenarios

00:20:34   when it's just a group of friends,

00:20:35   like I'm more willing to show my true emotions, right?

00:20:38   Right, then if like I'm in an office of some big company.

00:20:42   Right, there was no hooping and hollering at the Twitter headquarters because you have to pretend like you're super cool in front of Twitter.

00:20:48   You just sit back and you're like, "Oh yeah, hmm, stickers."

00:20:50   The thing is though, this was a much more hooping and hollering year, I think, than last year.

00:20:55   I think one of the funny things about last year's WWDC, I mean we did our big event, that big live event that we did.

00:21:03   and we recorded a show and I remember the whole time

00:21:06   I'm like okay, whatever they talk about

00:21:07   is how I'm gonna plan out the content.

00:21:10   And there wasn't really a lot.

00:21:13   The plan initially was for me and you

00:21:15   to talk about whatever happened to the iPad

00:21:17   and nothing happened.

00:21:20   So it was kind of an underwhelming WWDC last year.

00:21:25   There was some cool stuff, like I still use and like stickers

00:21:28   I think it was a good addition

00:21:29   but that was like the biggest thing.

00:21:31   - That was their headlining feature.

00:21:32   for like consumers was just these changes to iMessage.

00:21:35   But this year is like everything, everything,

00:21:39   everyone got their thing this year.

00:21:41   - Yeah.

00:21:42   - Like there is nothing, going into WWDC,

00:21:44   there is nothing that I wanted

00:21:46   that they didn't address in some way.

00:21:48   - Yeah, here's my feeling of what they managed

00:21:51   to pull off at this WWDC.

00:21:54   This is like everybody in the world went into this hall

00:21:57   to watch, to see.

00:21:59   Tim Cook came on stage and said,

00:22:01   "Look under your chair, everyone.

00:22:02   and there's a box for you,

00:22:03   and you could reach under your chair

00:22:05   and you could open the box,

00:22:06   and there was something just for you in the box

00:22:09   for everyone in that theater.

00:22:11   So that's what they managed to pull off.

00:22:13   There was nobody who didn't get something

00:22:17   that felt like this is the thing you're waiting for,

00:22:20   or the thing that you want to hear about.

00:22:22   So very, very impressive keynote.

00:22:25   - Like I had some things that were on my total wishlist,

00:22:30   like Apple embracing VR.

00:22:32   - Oh man, yeah.

00:22:35   - I had no expectations, honestly, for that to ever happen.

00:22:38   I thought that they'd missed a boat on it.

00:22:40   And you know, I've been talking to some people

00:22:42   who know their stuff, and people have been tweeting at me

00:22:45   to kind of give me information about like

00:22:47   some of the graphic stuff that they're using.

00:22:50   And again, as you would expect,

00:22:51   it's nowhere near top of the line.

00:22:54   But for me, it's the,

00:22:55   it's just that Apple are understanding

00:22:59   that VR is something that the Mac should be able to do.

00:23:02   And they're starting to make machines

00:23:04   that are powerful enough to cope with it.

00:23:07   That's what I want.

00:23:08   I mean, I've been recently,

00:23:10   like we were talking about the Corsair recently,

00:23:13   and I have been just like thinking,

00:23:15   what have I gotta do?

00:23:16   But now I just think if I just wait a little bit longer,

00:23:19   I don't think the iMac Pro is for me.

00:23:24   But like I'm just kinda keeping my eye on things

00:23:26   that there are these external GPUs

00:23:28   that they're working with and maybe this Mac Pro in 2018,

00:23:32   like maybe one combination or not of these machines

00:23:37   could be all I need for decent gaming and VR on my Mac.

00:23:41   - Yeah, yeah.

00:23:42   The VR thing, I also agree,

00:23:44   felt totally out of left field.

00:23:46   - Yep.

00:23:47   - In an already very packed keynote

00:23:51   and a thing that they gave a bunch of time to.

00:23:53   And I love that they did the VR demo on the regular iMacs.

00:23:57   - Yeah, that was good.

00:23:59   - They weren't showing off like,

00:24:01   "Oh, we have a pre-production iMac Pro on stage

00:24:03   "and we're gonna give you a VR demo

00:24:05   "with our $5,000 machine."

00:24:07   As I know, our next generation of regular iMacs can do VR.

00:24:12   And I found that totally surprising

00:24:15   and really very welcome as I was watching it happen.

00:24:19   I feel like a feeling of just relief,

00:24:22   just like we have had the conversation about VR

00:24:24   and you have always very much been pushing this feeling

00:24:26   like I think they're missing the boat on this, that they're not placing a bet on the table.

00:24:31   And I too didn't expect they'd even address it, but to see it done in such a way to be

00:24:36   given time. And I also thought it'd be very interestingly done in a way that's a demo

00:24:41   about working in VR as opposed to gaming in VR.

00:24:45   They are talking about making stuff as opposed to playing games, but the fact that they have

00:24:53   support for the two of the largest game engines and Steam. It's like, their games are part

00:24:57   of this, but like Apple is, they're focusing more on the creation of 3D content right now

00:25:03   because there are no games that can run. So I think that's why they're like "Oh, make

00:25:08   your games" is kind of what they're saying, because that's the message. Because you can't

00:25:13   take a current game and just start playing it. So I think they're pitching it right,

00:25:17   but I think people were getting a little bit too hung up

00:25:22   on the verbiage that Apple's using.

00:25:25   VR is gaming, and if they're not doing that,

00:25:27   then they're crazy, and they are doing that, it's clear.

00:25:30   And they put a Steam slider, like it's gaming,

00:25:33   but there's just no games.

00:25:34   - Even if in many ways it was a demo out of necessity,

00:25:38   I still think it was a very Appley demo

00:25:41   to focus on creation.

00:25:43   That always feels like one of the bullet points

00:25:47   that they want to hit with their products

00:25:49   and their services is,

00:25:50   look at how we can enable you to create things.

00:25:53   And so, if, in a year or two,

00:25:57   they may be able to demo an amazing VR game on the Mac,

00:26:01   but I can imagine them continuing that theme

00:26:03   of liking to show off what you can make in VR,

00:26:07   as opposed to just doing a graphics demo.

00:26:10   - They really don't, I mean, they are as a company,

00:26:12   they have games, there's games on their platforms,

00:26:14   they are not a games company,

00:26:15   like this is a thing about Apple.

00:26:17   I think it's really funny when they say on stage

00:26:18   something like, "Oh, we're the biggest gaming company

00:26:21   in the world because of the iPhone."

00:26:22   And the iPad's like, "Yeah."

00:26:25   - By default.

00:26:26   - Yeah, it's exactly, by default you are,

00:26:29   but you're not really.

00:26:31   - No.

00:26:32   - You let these games exist on your platform,

00:26:34   but you're not building controllers or all,

00:26:37   like you're not a gaming company

00:26:38   in the way Nintendo is a gaming company.

00:26:40   - Yeah, I mean, this is like even like Apple's

00:26:42   backend systems are just not built

00:26:44   for the way that game developers work.

00:26:45   like it's just not, but it's just because they have

00:26:48   the largest software distribution platform in the world,

00:26:51   so people just keep putting games out on the system anyway,

00:26:55   'cause it's like a billion devices or something.

00:26:57   - Yeah, something crazy.

00:26:58   - So it's similar to Android,

00:27:00   but there are many differences,

00:27:03   and I think that it's like they talk about games,

00:27:06   and they have games, but they're no gaming company.

00:27:09   - Yeah, they're not in their sole gaming company.

00:27:12   - No, it's like, oh, I guess we just sell games now too.

00:27:15   That's kind of how they kind of stumbled into it.

00:27:17   But I'm really happy.

00:27:18   More powerful Macs is a good thing, right?

00:27:21   And the ability to do VR gaming is a good thing.

00:27:24   - Yeah, it's a really good thing.

00:27:26   - But of course the biggest stuff for me and you was iPad.

00:27:30   That's what we were looking for.

00:27:32   I mean it was the make or break here for the iPad.

00:27:35   Because we got iOS 9, we got all the stuff that meant

00:27:37   that me and you could be working on our iPad all day

00:27:40   because of iOS 9.

00:27:42   Nothing happened in 10.

00:27:43   And it was like, well, okay, show us what you got. And they did.

00:27:47   They show us what they have. And there are,

00:27:52   I think maybe two like hugely fundamental

00:27:57   changes to iOS,

00:27:59   which is an exposed file system and management of that.

00:28:04   And the way that they have adapted multitasking,

00:28:07   they basically burned multitasking down and rebuilt it.

00:28:11   and it all focuses around a doc now.

00:28:14   Oh, and drag and drop as well,

00:28:16   being the addition to multitasking.

00:28:18   - Right, in my head I kind of roll that up

00:28:20   with multitasking, even though it's an incredibly

00:28:23   different thing.

00:28:25   The two of them on stage look like they go so well together

00:28:30   that I find like my brain is not mentally separating them

00:28:33   out as two distinct things, even though obviously they are.

00:28:35   - Exactly, and the way I've been hearing people

00:28:37   talk about these advancements and I agree with it completely is that there

00:28:43   was a lot of people saying oh they they taught the iPad to be a Mac they taught

00:28:49   that iPad to be a real computer but I think that what Apple has actually done

00:28:54   is taken these fundamental tenants of what it means to be a personal computer

00:29:00   boiled them down to what they are at their core and then built them for iOS.

00:29:07   So the ability to drag and drop them easily with our own files and content in

00:29:11   which apps are aware of each other, the ability to be able to have multiple

00:29:15   things on screen at one time and the ability to be able to access your files

00:29:18   wherever you want them. Because all of these things especially drag and drop

00:29:22   they make more sense to me here than they do on my Mac.

00:29:27   Well, the iPad always has the advantage that you are directly manipulating the thing with

00:29:34   either your hand or with the pencil.

00:29:36   And I think from a UI designer perspective, that is quite a challenge to think of how

00:29:45   do you want to make something that works like that.

00:29:49   But it also has the big advantage that once you see someone do it and once you yourself

00:29:53   do it one or two times, it's like your brain can lean on its muscle memory of the real

00:29:59   world.

00:30:01   And so with the drag and drop, it's like, "Oh yes, of course, I touch this thing and

00:30:05   I know that in this digital universe when I touch something else, it will fly to my

00:30:09   other finger and then I can move it around."

00:30:11   And you only have to do that a couple of times before your brain gets the metaphor.

00:30:20   There isn't that level of indirection of "Oh, I'm copying these files from this thing and

00:30:28   I don't see them move, I just see a progress bar."

00:30:33   I think a lot of people have a hard time with that and it's why many people struggle with

00:30:39   file management on a Mac and it's why lots of people do like an iPad because they don't

00:30:43   have to use that stuff.

00:30:45   But for the more pro power iPad users, it's very great to be able to do the drag and drop

00:30:52   stuff and also have that feeling of "oh, it's so easy because I'm just tap tap tap, I can

00:30:57   see what's happening" and it just slots into your brain in an easy way.

00:31:03   And just the things that I'm learning about the drag and drop and the way that it works

00:31:06   is so very clever.

00:31:10   enabling and keeping all this security in place but it's apparently it's it's

00:31:15   work for developers but not as much as it may seem to be initially and it's

00:31:19   there's been some demos of some really interesting stuff about the way that

00:31:23   other applications can extract relevant data so for example there's a demo that

00:31:28   Apple has been doing as part of their presentations where they have the photos

00:31:33   app and the Maps app side by side and you take a photo and drop it onto the

00:31:38   Maps app and it takes you to the location the photo was taken. Oh nice. So

00:31:43   there is all of this stuff where like you as an app developer can say what types

00:31:47   of data you're looking for and also what your files contain and when you drag one

00:31:53   over the other that application is looking for the relevant information

00:31:58   that it can extract from any file and then deals of it. It's very very clever

00:32:03   stuff and it really does feel like just a massive win. Like all of the really

00:32:12   big things that we needed on the iPad have been addressed. Yeah I would agree

00:32:18   with that and it's very interesting. Another reason why I like

00:32:22   being physically here at WWDC is related to this because when you're sitting in a

00:32:28   keynote and particularly this keynote which has the magic box for everybody

00:32:32   They're running through everything on stage and I swear I've never seen them go through more stuff faster

00:32:38   You know those those word slides that they have at the end were hilarious sometimes where they were they they run through the main things

00:32:44   And they say oh we've done a bunch of other stuff for iOS and they put a word cloud up on the screen and then they

00:32:48   Move on sometimes those word clouds were up for like two seconds

00:32:51   It's like we got to keep moving on and they were up for two seconds with

00:32:54   Many many words and we were all on Twitter's going did anybody catch that what was on there?

00:33:00   I need to know what was, I couldn't even see it for two seconds.

00:33:02   Um, there was so much stuff.

00:33:05   And when, when you're seeing them demo things like drag and drop on screen and

00:33:12   demoing the new versions of app switching and all of this stuff, I'm sitting here

00:33:17   watching it and I think I can see what they're doing in this looks amazing, but

00:33:22   there is always that part, which is, but I don't really get it until I can play

00:33:28   around with it because you know they're showing you things under certain circumstances and

00:33:33   like they've set up demos to do particular things and you don't have an ability to understand

00:33:40   how does this really work and what are the edge cases.

00:33:43   And so being a WWDC is fantastic because as soon as that keynote is over, someone is going

00:33:51   to be crazy enough to load the beta of the developer build right on their iPad immediately

00:33:57   And this year it was David Sparks, who runs two podcasts, if I'm right, on this network.

00:34:04   He does.

00:34:05   Which you should go listen to.

00:34:06   Especially if you're listening to Cortex, you should in particular listen to Free Agents

00:34:10   that he does with Jason Snell.

00:34:12   If you like this show, you will almost certainly like that show.

00:34:15   I think so.

00:34:16   I think so.

00:34:17   There's going to be a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram.

00:34:21   Yeah, so David Sparks had that, the build on his iPad super fast.

00:34:27   Basically immediately.

00:34:28   Yeah, he must have been one of the very first people in the whole of the conference to get it loaded.

00:34:33   And being here at WWDC then means, very shortly after the keynote has happened, he was nice enough to let me play around with his iPad, mess up lots of things.

00:34:50   and rearranging all of his icons, dragging and dropping emails and like,

00:34:55   "Woo, how does this work? Where does this go? What happens if I do that?" Like,

00:34:58   "Oh God, I would never let someone touch my..." He was incredibly generous.

00:35:02   So thanks again, David. But we got to play around with it.

00:35:05   And that's the moment where as a person trying to understand what does this mean

00:35:11   for how my workflows are going to happen?

00:35:14   What does this mean for the future of the way I do work on a device that's

00:35:16   deeply important to me. That's where the understanding comes in.

00:35:20   And in the first 20 minutes of playing with it,

00:35:23   I think we both had the same experience of, okay,

00:35:26   now that we have our hands on it,

00:35:27   you start out with a bunch of concerns because what you're realizing is, Oh,

00:35:31   the way I do everything is broken and the way I'm used to managing a bunch of

00:35:36   windows is not going to work. And so you start out by thinking, Oh God, I like,

00:35:40   I don't know how this is going to, I'm not sure if this is a good thing,

00:35:44   But I was very happy that over the course of those 20 minutes playing around,

00:35:47   I felt like, oh, okay, I understand we're not now focused on individual apps.

00:35:53   We're focused on the equivalent of spaces on the Mac and switching between these

00:35:57   and playing with slide over.

00:35:58   And very quickly I could see how is this going to change the way I work.

00:36:05   And from that it's like, hey, something seemed a little clunky,

00:36:09   but it's partly me just getting used to it. And I was overall very,

00:36:13   very happy at the end of it feeling like this is great.

00:36:16   Like this new dock is incredibly strange.

00:36:18   I don't know what's going to happen there.

00:36:20   There's a bunch of stuff to figure out,

00:36:21   but I was really, really happy to have an opportunity

00:36:24   to play around with it and get a bit of muscle memory feel

00:36:28   for how this is going to work.

00:36:30   - And the Apple Watch originally came out.

00:36:32   It was weird.

00:36:34   So from a software perspective,

00:36:35   there was just a lot of things about it that were really weird.

00:36:38   And then WatchOS 2 improved a little bit,

00:36:41   And then watchOS 3 felt like they had redesigned watchOS

00:36:45   based on the fact that it actually used the watch.

00:36:47   - Right.

00:36:48   - And I feel like that this version of iOS on the iPad

00:36:52   has been made by people who have been using iOS on the iPad

00:36:57   seriously over the last two years.

00:36:59   - That is a great comparison.

00:37:00   That's a great comparison.

00:37:01   - Because we have to start again in some ways,

00:37:05   but I feel like the scale is way better.

00:37:09   Like it will scale better over time

00:37:12   because you have more flexibility about the way

00:37:15   that you arrange your workspace.

00:37:17   Where if we would have just continued

00:37:19   with the previous split view at Pica,

00:37:22   even with just additional tools to manage that,

00:37:26   I think the idea of this pulling in and pulling down

00:37:29   would have eventually gotten to be feel really old.

00:37:32   When now we're like you can set up these pairs

00:37:34   of applications and they live together.

00:37:36   You can swipe up from the dock and bring things over.

00:37:38   It's basically like, oh, we have used the Mac

00:37:42   for such a long time, and we've never needed

00:37:46   to really change the way that you open

00:37:47   and play with applications,

00:37:49   and this is very similar to that.

00:37:51   Again, I think that there are benefits,

00:37:54   there are things that are good,

00:37:55   there are things that are not as good,

00:37:56   but overall I feel like it's really focused

00:38:00   on trying to make this a more scalable

00:38:05   and usable interface over time,

00:38:07   without needing to burn it back down again

00:38:09   in two years and restart.

00:38:11   Tim Cook started off the whole presentation about the iPad

00:38:14   as this is the biggest iPad release ever,

00:38:17   which I hated that to begin.

00:38:19   I was like, you're setting expectations.

00:38:21   - Never do that. - Way too high.

00:38:23   Like someone should have told you to do that at the end.

00:38:26   But it does feel that way though.

00:38:28   - It's like a comic coming on stage.

00:38:30   This is gonna be the funniest show you've ever seen.

00:38:32   - I have some real great jokes for you folks.

00:38:34   - Well, now it isn't.

00:38:35   to rip your lovely butts off, here we go.

00:38:37   But it is though, I mean he was right, it is.

00:38:42   And there are like a million little things,

00:38:45   and there are a million little things

00:38:47   that me and you don't even know about yet.

00:38:49   But like even there are things like,

00:38:50   you can record the screen now natively on iOS.

00:38:54   Which has been just like an eternal frustration for so long.

00:38:57   But you can do it now.

00:38:59   - There are, that simple ability to record the screen,

00:39:03   I can think of so many times over the past few years where I have wanted to do

00:39:07   something animation wise on the road and I've thought, Oh, if I could just,

00:39:12   I could just record the screen and Oh, right.

00:39:14   Yeah. Cause you could just record the screen and move stuff around.

00:39:17   There are ways that I could have done not the greatest animation,

00:39:22   but I could have done fine mobile animation with some screen recording.

00:39:26   But it's, but the problem has always been like, Oh,

00:39:29   you need a second device to record. And it's like, okay,

00:39:32   was a deal breaker because the whole reason I want to record the screen is I don't have

00:39:35   my Mac with me and now I might as well just use the Mac if it's here.

00:39:39   That's going to be really helpful to me. So there was a thing I wanted to do for a vlog

00:39:43   where it was the big travel vlog that I did recently.

00:39:46   Mega vlog. Mega vlog. The travel mega vlog. And I wanted

00:39:49   to... You should trademark that.

00:39:50   I'm gonna. I'm gonna do my best. There's something that I wanted to do to show like, you know

00:39:58   you have those old like those maps and you feel like a plane moving from place to place.

00:40:01   I know the exact thing that you're trying to do because I've tried to do this a couple

00:40:05   of times. It's hard to get it to look right.

00:40:06   I couldn't do it.

00:40:07   Yeah, you want to do like the Indiana Jones effect.

00:40:09   Yeah, and I didn't even know where to start really with the Mac apps, but I could pull

00:40:14   that together way easier on iOS.

00:40:17   Because now I could just record the screen and just physically move the plane from place

00:40:20   to place.

00:40:21   If you can do screen recording on an iPad, there are a lot of simple animations that

00:40:27   become way easier.

00:40:29   If you want to do complex stuff, you're still going to want to go back to the Mac.

00:40:32   But I can see a lot of things that people can do with the screen recording.

00:40:38   I'm just thinking about animation, but I feel like that really opens up a whole world of

00:40:43   other things that people can do.

00:40:45   I mean, even just doing tech support for other people.

00:40:49   I just want to record me doing the thing, and then I can send you the video file and

00:40:53   you can just see it right now.

00:40:55   This is what you do.

00:40:56   in the inverse when mom calls and she's like,

00:40:59   I can't work out why my phone is doing this.

00:41:02   Like why do I have a little phone icon in the top left?

00:41:05   I was like, I don't even know what you're talking about.

00:41:06   - That is always, that is the biggest tech support problem

00:41:09   is person on the other end who needs the tech support

00:41:13   is also the person who very often doesn't have

00:41:16   the technical vocabulary to describe what they're looking at

00:41:19   in ways that makes it immediately understandable.

00:41:22   And sometimes you will hear a visual description of a thing

00:41:25   You're like, I don't know what the hell that is.

00:41:27   And then when you see it, you go, oh, right,

00:41:29   it's the thing over there, right,

00:41:31   that's called the WYSIWOG, right?

00:41:32   And it's like, if you'd said WYSIWOG,

00:41:34   I would have known immediately what it was.

00:41:35   - We would have been, an hour ago,

00:41:37   we could have got through this.

00:41:37   - Right, but you're describing the shape of it,

00:41:39   and it's like, in my brain,

00:41:40   I just don't think of it that way.

00:41:41   Yeah, so I think the screen sharing,

00:41:44   it's such a little feature,

00:41:47   but it's one more thing that removes the need for a Mac

00:41:52   for a bunch of stuff.

00:41:54   'cause you've been able to do it if you plug a cable in

00:41:56   and you do quick timers. - And you do quick timers.

00:41:58   - But it's just like I never think of it.

00:42:00   - Yeah, and it's such a hassle

00:42:02   that you're never going to want to do that as a workflow.

00:42:05   (chiming)

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00:43:31   While we're talking about the screen recording, I will ask you, because I don't 100% know

00:43:36   what you think about this, the very controversial change to the look of Control Center.

00:43:42   Ah, yeah okay.

00:43:44   Where do you, describe it for the listeners in case they're unaware, and then tell me

00:43:47   where you come down on this.

00:43:49   of iOS 10, Control Center went from being this single panel page of shortcuts to

00:43:55   three pages. So you would swipe up your three pages if you had any homekit

00:43:59   devices installed. So you would have like play and pause and some app shortcuts

00:44:03   and then you'd have all these big music card and then you would have this like

00:44:09   homekit set of switches. And now I think mostly because of how they've changed

00:44:16   iOS on the iPad where that same animation now brings the dock up instead.

00:44:20   They have moved all of these switches into one place and it's now

00:44:27   customizable to an extent where Apple has exposed more switches available of

00:44:33   their own system stuff that you can add in and you can also 3d touch where you

00:44:38   press into the screen on the newer phones and it will bring up additional

00:44:41   buttons like for example you can have an entire Apple TV remote in Control Center now.

00:44:45   I saw that. It's very funny looking on the screen.

00:44:48   Very strange. So they've moved it all into this one panel.

00:44:52   It is this big box of buttons and switches and faders and spinners and gosh knows what else

00:45:01   in one screen in all different sizes. So it looks like a kind of weird jigsaw puzzle of buttons.

00:45:08   I think it's beautiful. I love it.

00:45:13   It is so my aesthetic.

00:45:16   Like, I am a sticker person and it effectively looks like they have just taken stickers.

00:45:22   I would never have thought about it that way.

00:45:24   I would never have thought about it that way, but as soon as you say it, it does look like an array of stickers.

00:45:29   It's just like, I can appreciate having as much functionality as possible in as small a space as possible

00:45:37   and just minimizing the UI that goes around it.

00:45:40   I think it looks brilliant. I think it looks fun and weird and I can move stuff around.

00:45:45   I'm really on board with it.

00:45:47   That's very interesting. So this is the thing that people seem very divided on.

00:45:52   This is the thing.

00:45:53   And a lot of people are coming down on the "Oh my god, it's atrocious."

00:45:58   And I am with you that I actually like the look of it.

00:46:03   I think it is a bit messy in some ways,

00:46:08   and I can see why a lot of people would react poorly to it,

00:46:13   but as far as I'm concerned, I think it's fantastic too.

00:46:18   And if someone doesn't like the visual look of it,

00:46:22   I think you can still say that this is an appropriate place

00:46:25   where Apple is making, you have this slider

00:46:28   of how good does it look versus how well does it work,

00:46:31   And Control Center is one of those places

00:46:36   where I am very happy if I was on the design team

00:46:39   to say, look, we need the slider very far over

00:46:42   into the how well does it work,

00:46:44   because the whole reason Control Center exists

00:46:48   is because you want to just do something quickly.

00:46:51   And you want to just flip up and press a button

00:46:54   and have a thing happen.

00:46:56   And I think the redesign of Control Center

00:47:00   you know, really for quite a while now has leaned too hard on the

00:47:05   "Oh, we want it to look nice and pretty when it comes up" and has been a little

00:47:09   bit frustrating on the usability side.

00:47:11   I love that you can add or subtract the buttons that you're not going to use.

00:47:15   I haven't gone all the way to customizing those buttons.

00:47:20   Next year, I think. Looking at you, calculator button.

00:47:23   Yeah, I just know and desire.

00:47:27   Pcalc is terrible, Pcalc's way better.

00:47:29   But I'm, so yeah, it's, I wasn't sure

00:47:33   what you would think of it, but as soon as you say

00:47:35   it looks like stickers, of course you'd love it.

00:47:37   - Of course you'd love it. - Of course you'd love it.

00:47:38   - It's everything about me.

00:47:39   It's like I've been saying to you,

00:47:40   that is my aesthetic, that is it, that is 100% it.

00:47:44   What I like about this is,

00:47:45   in regards to the function of a form,

00:47:48   the whole point of Control Center

00:47:51   is to give you quick access to things,

00:47:53   and quick access comes from muscle memory.

00:47:56   The problem with Control Center now is,

00:47:58   when you swipe it up, now I know what,

00:48:00   okay, the way it is built and the way it works is,

00:48:03   it swipes up to the last panel you had open.

00:48:06   But what that means is, every time I swipe it up,

00:48:09   there is a pause where I have to realize

00:48:13   if I'm in the right place.

00:48:14   - Yeah, you have to visually look at the screen

00:48:16   and your brain has to process which action is going,

00:48:20   and already now it's like muscle memory is over.

00:48:22   - 'Cause it's fine if I press play on a song

00:48:24   and then I need to skip a song in two minutes, right?

00:48:26   I know it's there and I swipe it up and I hit the button.

00:48:29   But tomorrow, when I need to change the color of my light,

00:48:34   it's not where I need it to be.

00:48:36   And so that's why I am a big fan of this,

00:48:39   is you are putting as much functionality as you can

00:48:42   into one screen, which means I am gonna know

00:48:44   after a couple of weeks where all of those buttons live.

00:48:48   And I think that that's, again,

00:48:51   so this is another feature I think,

00:48:52   where they're like, we've used this for a year

00:48:54   and we have realized it sucks and we have to start again.

00:48:58   - Yeah, the three panel swipe left, swipe right,

00:49:01   it stays where you last left it,

00:49:03   control center was crazy making,

00:49:06   especially on a 12.9 inch iPad.

00:49:09   It's like, it's like--

00:49:11   - Well, they could have fit it all on there.

00:49:13   - They could have fit it all on.

00:49:14   It's like it's there intentionally to drive you crazy

00:49:17   on the gigantic iPad.

00:49:19   - That was the most egregious.

00:49:20   - Yeah, I was like, it works great on iPad.

00:49:23   No, it doesn't.

00:49:24   - No, it doesn't.

00:49:24   - Not on iPad at all.

00:49:26   It's enraging on iPad.

00:49:27   - Little things like that is what makes me realize

00:49:30   that we got this version of iOS later than intended.

00:49:34   'Cause that's such a weird thing to do,

00:49:37   but they're just like, well, this is how iOS is

00:49:39   because we haven't got anything else for the iPad yet.

00:49:41   So we're just moving these features

00:49:44   onto all these devices, right?

00:49:45   - Yeah.

00:49:47   - This wasn't the only iPad news that we got though.

00:49:49   It wasn't just software.

00:49:51   We also got hardware.

00:49:52   - Mm-hmm.

00:49:54   got our hardware. They refreshed the entire line.

00:49:57   Yeah, I am

00:50:01   I am very happy about this because you know

00:50:05   I had a deep fear going into this keynote. So I was very confident about

00:50:09   iPad hardware. But I had a really deep fear

00:50:14   that what we were going to get is the new 10.5 inch iPad which we did get

00:50:19   and I thought it was going to be all quiet on the Western Front

00:50:22   with the 12.9 inch iPad.

00:50:24   - Do you remember what I said to you at dinner

00:50:26   the night before, Gray?

00:50:27   - What did you say?

00:50:28   It's been so busy, I don't remember.

00:50:29   - We were sitting around at dinner and you and Marco

00:50:31   were saying that you thought it was dead, dead, dead forever

00:50:34   and I said, if they update one,

00:50:36   I believe they'll update both.

00:50:38   And I was really strong on this and you two were like,

00:50:40   no, no, Tim Cook's a crazy man.

00:50:42   (laughing)

00:50:44   - I wasn't sure it was gonna be dead forever,

00:50:46   but I was just concerned that something about it

00:50:50   I just felt it might stick around in the same form factor

00:50:55   for a very long time without any internal updates

00:50:58   or anything.

00:50:59   I was just, something was just really nagging my mind

00:51:01   about that, but that did not happen.

00:51:06   - It did not.

00:51:07   - And I was super psyched about that.

00:51:08   - Yeah, it was good.

00:51:10   - That was the most excited part for me in the keynote

00:51:13   was new 12.9 inch iPad, so happy, so happy.

00:51:19   Yeah, the 10.5 is amazing and I'm going to be buying one as soon as I get home.

00:51:25   It isn't exactly what I wanted.

00:51:28   Now why is that? Because I know you have been very excited for this.

00:51:32   And I feel like it looks just like it did in all the rumors.

00:51:37   It seems like this looks exactly like what we were expecting.

00:51:40   Yep, it's the exact hardware I expected it to be.

00:51:43   It is not what I thought it was going to be from a software perspective.

00:51:46   So we had a 9.7 inch iPad Pro and a 12.9 inch iPad Pro.

00:51:50   Right.

00:51:51   A 10.5 inch iPad Pro kind of sits between the middle,

00:51:54   but it is doing literally nothing for the software to make it any different.

00:52:01   So what I was hoping was going to happen was that the 10.5 inch iPad Pro

00:52:06   would give me the exact same software experience as the 12.9

00:52:10   but shrunk down so I would get two full-sized iPad applications side by side but it isn't like that.

00:52:17   It's like with the 9.7 where you get this kind of like halfway between iPhone and iPad

00:52:23   application if you have it split right down the middle. So if you have like two-thirds of the

00:52:29   screen was one app and one-third of the screen is another you get one full iPad app and then an

00:52:33   iPhone app. But if you bring them to the middle on the 9.7 and on the 10.5 you get this kind of like

00:52:39   in between. Okay, it's a different view controller on that one.

00:52:43   Okay. Right, and that's how it's been with the 9.7, but on the big one, on the big

00:52:47   iPad Pro, the 12.9 inch iPad Pro, you get two full-sized portrait iPad

00:52:52   applications side by side. Okay. And I was hoping that the 10.5 would

00:52:56   be like the 12.9 and that you would get like if you put

00:52:59   two apps side by side it's two portrait apps side by side, but that's not what

00:53:03   you get. Right, the operating system would tell them

00:53:06   "You are a full screen app. Act like it."

00:53:09   But they don't. They still say it's small enough that if you have a different view controller,

00:53:13   it's using the more mobile view controller.

00:53:16   That's interesting. I've never even really tuned into that on the smaller iPad Pro.

00:53:19   But I can see now immediately why that is a big considering factor in which you're going to use.

00:53:28   Because what I was hoping was, whilst I thoroughly enjoy the multi-pad lifestyle,

00:53:35   that if I got this iPad, it might potentially

00:53:40   mean I only need one, because I will be getting

00:53:43   what I hope to be best of both worlds.

00:53:45   That's not the case.

00:53:47   So it's like for me, I'm like,

00:53:49   I'm not trying to look a gift horse in the mouth with this,

00:53:52   but I don't understand why they increased the screen,

00:53:56   other than to differentiate it

00:53:57   from the regular sized device called iPad,

00:54:01   which is $329 and is 9.7 inch in size and screen.

00:54:06   I think that's the only reason,

00:54:07   is that they wanted to have 9.7 is the cheap one,

00:54:11   then you have these two Pro ones,

00:54:12   one is 10 and a half inches and one is 12.9 inches.

00:54:15   And again, if you're a company making these products,

00:54:19   you should differentiate them.

00:54:21   But there doesn't seem to be anything in the iPad

00:54:24   that takes advantage of the additional size of the screen.

00:54:27   And the reason that I'm annoyed about this

00:54:28   is they made the iPad bigger.

00:54:30   So the iPad itself is bigger to make the screen bigger for kind of no real reason it seems.

00:54:39   Right, but the software is still treating it like it's go to the mobile version.

00:54:44   But I've played with one, I spent some time with one and when you hold it, you don't know it's bigger.

00:54:50   They kept the weight the same, it doesn't feel bigger but it looks fantastic.

00:54:54   Fantastic right having the bigger screen. I'm looking at my old iPad right now, and I'm like look at all that bezel

00:55:00   You ugly ugly little thing, right?

00:55:03   He's a nice little guy.

00:55:06   He's right there man. He's all covered in stickers.

00:55:08   He has failed me now.

00:55:10   Wow that's hard.

00:55:11   There is a new hotness in town and this little guy ain't in it no more.

00:55:15   Wow so sorry buddy.

00:55:16   But this is what Apple does right and it's done that.

00:55:19   They make the device you were perfectly fine with yesterday,

00:55:23   hideous today. And that's what they've done with this. So I'm happy to have new hardware,

00:55:30   it's got some amazing new features which we're going to talk about in a second, but just from

00:55:35   a pure like what the screen size has brought me, there isn't really anything to that.

00:55:40   Okay that's interesting, that's very interesting. I think I didn't understand that with the view

00:55:45   controllers and like this is what you were looking for with it. So that makes it a lot more sense

00:55:49   about why it's amazing but you're a little bit lukewarm on it because of

00:55:55   that lack of that feature. Yeah it's like I'm really excited about iPad software

00:55:59   I'm really excited about the new iPad hardware but the combination of those

00:56:03   two and the 10.5 hasn't really changed anything. Right right. Like independently

00:56:07   they're both brilliant but together there's nothing special going on. But

00:56:11   the crowning feature of this device is a new display technology that Apple's

00:56:16   calling ProMotion. It encompasses a bunch of different things. One of these things is

00:56:21   a 120Hz refresh rate. Now the best way to try and describe this, so it's refreshing

00:56:27   to scream off which means they can show more fluid animation. But you know when you see

00:56:33   Apple do this, you see lots of companies do this. When you're watching a movie like a

00:56:37   promo footage or an advert or something and you see someone holding a device and they're

00:56:43   using it but it looks fake right and it's because they're using rendered

00:56:48   animations with like a green screen so they're just overlaying it and it always

00:56:52   looks weird like the fingers never really kind of exactly where it should be

00:56:55   and all the animations look too smooth that's how these new iPads look because

00:57:00   the animations are so smooth the first time you see it almost looks broken but

00:57:06   it just doesn't look real it's fantastic yeah I really wish I had seen one of

00:57:12   things in person. You can say it. It's okay. We're here. People have them. It's okay. You

00:57:21   can say it. It's fine. Okay. Just wanted to, just wanted to clear. Yeah. Another great

00:57:26   reason to come to WWDC. You get to, people have hardware and you get to see it. Things

00:57:30   get left on counters. Who knows how, right? Who knows? Who knows how? It's interesting.

00:57:37   I am, I am, I don't know how to put this, but I am, I'm going to be real curious to

00:57:41   to see when I have one for a while, playing around with it

00:57:44   and what it's really like,

00:57:46   because there is a certain kind of unreality to it.

00:57:50   - Yeah, it is. - And I think I am

00:57:53   in the minority of people who,

00:57:56   okay, so there's two kinds of people in the world,

00:57:59   people who notice frame rates and people who don't.

00:58:02   And I'm kind of fascinated by how some people

00:58:04   just can't see the difference between,

00:58:06   like when you shoot on your iPhone,

00:58:07   if you put it in 60 frames per second mode

00:58:09   versus 30 frames per second mode.

00:58:11   And I think it looks like an abhorrent disaster if people shoot in 60 frames a second.

00:58:15   Yeah, okay, so you're on the same page with me on this.

00:58:17   Yeah, it's like, I will not shoot in 60 frames per second on my phone because it's like,

00:58:21   "Ugh, I hate it!"

00:58:23   You're showing me too much.

00:58:25   It's almost like it's a reality uncanny valley.

00:58:29   It's so close to infinite frames per second.

00:58:34   60 is just inches away from infinite.

00:58:39   but it's not actually looking through a transparent piece of glass that a thing happened.

00:58:43   Like, that's sort of the feeling of looking at 60 frames per second footage.

00:58:47   And I have a little bit of that same feeling looking at the 120 frames per second

00:58:55   animations and scrolling on the new iPad. I think I'll get used to it, but it is weird.

00:59:02   But what I've... but the thing that is a concern for me is it feels like a little bit of a retina

00:59:07   a transition is that I think when I got used to retina screens,

00:59:11   I had a hard time working with non retina screens and I'm concerned about,

00:59:17   I think I will get totally used to the 120 frames per second,

00:59:23   but what I'm worried about is then switching back to screens that are at a

00:59:27   lower frame rate. Once my brain is used to the idea that, Oh,

00:59:30   things on a computer, they move in this preternaturally smooth way.

00:59:35   and then if it doesn't quite look the same,

00:59:37   I think this is going to be coming everywhere,

00:59:39   I just really hope it's in the new iPhone.

00:59:43   - I think it will be, I really do think it will be.

00:59:45   I mean, 'cause again, I don't know enough

00:59:47   about how the technology works,

00:59:48   but people smarter than me are telling me

00:59:50   that it's the display technology in the chip.

00:59:52   Well, I mean, the iPhone's gonna get the best display

00:59:55   Apple can make and the best chip they can make.

00:59:57   It's not like something like the True Tone stuff

00:59:59   where it needs additional sensors,

01:00:01   which is why it maybe hasn't come to the iPhone yet.

01:00:04   it seems like it would be easier to do than TrueTumbles

01:00:08   in the iPhone.

01:00:09   - Yeah, so I expect you're right about that.

01:00:12   So I'm very interested to see once I actually own

01:00:15   one of these things and use it for a while,

01:00:17   how it goes, how this transition goes.

01:00:20   But the thing that to me is amazing

01:00:25   is the decreased latency in terms of the pen usage.

01:00:32   So the other thing that happened, this is part of this whole system called ProMotion,

01:00:38   is they have increased the refresh rate of what the Pencil is able to provide.

01:00:44   So in the current versions of the iPad, the frame rate on the screens is 60Hz, what it's

01:00:51   able to do is 60Hz, and it is refreshing the screen at 120Hz to find Pencil input so it

01:00:59   reduces lag and increases smoothness.

01:01:02   the new devices they have a 120 Hertz for the output of the screen and a 240

01:01:08   Hertz refresh rate for the pencil. So they are continuing the smoothness

01:01:13   by doubling that. The smoothness has been doubled. Yes, more smooth. I've also heard

01:01:18   that they're doing some interesting things with better predictive technology

01:01:22   about which way your hand is going with the pencil and all these things.

01:01:26   But I think if you go back, if you go back last, I'm sorry, if you go back two

01:01:32   years ago when we were originally talking about how desperate we were to get our hands

01:01:36   on a pencil and see what does it look like and how does it work.

01:01:41   Oh gosh, yeah.

01:01:42   Well, like I see because now you're here in person, I see you making this face and you're

01:01:45   trying to do the mental math on was it two years ago and the answer was yes, Myke.

01:01:49   Whoa.

01:01:50   Yeah.

01:01:51   We've been doing this for a long time.

01:01:52   Very long time.

01:01:53   Episode 52 can throw you off.

01:01:57   Yes, it can.

01:01:58   But so if you go back and listen to those old episodes, we were desperate because we

01:02:01   wanted to see it because we're both very sensitive to the pencil latency and just

01:02:05   essentially didn't trust anybody's reports of like "oh it's great you can't

01:02:11   tell the difference" like I don't believe you for a moment like I'm sure I will be

01:02:15   able to tell and I think if memory serves me my verdict was the latency was

01:02:20   acceptable which as opposed to the previous style eye that were like using

01:02:25   hot dogs on a screen was just it was totally unacceptable just completely why

01:02:30   - Why even bother? - Yeah, why even bother?

01:02:31   Just a tale of misery.

01:02:34   But so when I'm using my current 12.9-inch iPad,

01:02:39   I can see that there's a little bit of latency

01:02:41   with the pen, but it's fine.

01:02:42   Like, it is acceptable, and I have gotten very used to it.

01:02:45   But when I got a chance, just for a few minutes,

01:02:48   to try the Pencil with what is my personal favorite

01:02:52   handwriting app, and I think the best,

01:02:54   which is GoodNotes 4, I got to try those two together,

01:02:58   And it was eerie for the first few moments

01:03:01   because it literally felt like,

01:03:04   oh, I am writing with an ink pen on a piece of glass.

01:03:08   - And bear in mind, this is about, I assume,

01:03:12   the app developer being able to optimize.

01:03:15   - This is exactly it.

01:03:16   I wanted to see it on GoodNotes in particular

01:03:18   because I feel like that developer

01:03:20   has done an amazing job with the handwriting.

01:03:23   If you are really sensitive to this stuff,

01:03:25   you can see there's, at least in my opinion,

01:03:28   there's a very big difference between the handwriting

01:03:29   on something like Notability versus GoodNotes,

01:03:33   and I think GoodNotes does a really great job.

01:03:35   But so it's like pre-developer optimizations,

01:03:40   it's uncanny.

01:03:41   And I'd say like this, I only used it for a few minutes,

01:03:45   but in those few minutes, I feel like I can say

01:03:47   that the latency was unnoticeable,

01:03:50   that it felt like it was right under the pencil tip

01:03:53   the whole time.

01:03:55   and it really is a very big subjective feeling change

01:04:00   using it that way.

01:04:02   So I am really looking forward to editing the scripts

01:04:06   with the pencil on the screen.

01:04:09   And you know, we haven't discussed it,

01:04:13   but you know I put up a wish list

01:04:15   before the keynote went up of things that I wanted,

01:04:18   and one of those things was Apple Pencil 2.

01:04:20   There are a lot of things that I still wanted

01:04:23   an Apple Pencil, mostly it not being in cotton white,

01:04:27   and maybe aluminum with a little grip on it,

01:04:30   but all those things aside, I feel in retrospect

01:04:33   like I can half tick that box,

01:04:35   because even though the pencil isn't new,

01:04:39   the experience of using it with the new hardware

01:04:42   makes it feel like it was a new one.

01:04:45   Like if someone had handed me a pencil and said,

01:04:48   "Oh, this is the Apple Pencil 2," and used it on the screen,

01:04:50   I would be saying like, I cannot believe

01:04:53   how you guys got the latency down, it's amazing.

01:04:55   - Yeah, it's one of those things with these combination

01:04:59   of two pieces of hardware and software,

01:05:01   is that you didn't need to update the hardware

01:05:03   of the pencil at all to make this change,

01:05:05   which is really impressive.

01:05:06   - Yeah, it really is.

01:05:08   - And I agree with you, I was hoping that we were gonna get

01:05:11   more in regards to the pencil, like an actual new model,

01:05:15   but that hasn't happened.

01:05:16   So, I mean, the things that I and you want with this,

01:05:20   I'm not surprised that they haven't bothered

01:05:22   to change it yet.

01:05:24   I feel like you can do that down the line.

01:05:26   There's no real need to make those changes right now

01:05:29   other than to just placate me and you.

01:05:32   In regards to the pencil,

01:05:34   there were two interesting things there.

01:05:36   One is if you have an Apple Pencil now,

01:05:38   you can tap on a locked screen and start writing a note.

01:05:43   - I thought that was a genius interface addition, yeah.

01:05:45   - So this is very similar to the way

01:05:47   that the Samsung Galaxy Note series has been for a while.

01:05:50   This is a little bit cooler in that you just start writing

01:05:55   and you write on the black screen.

01:05:57   - Oh, okay. - Yeah,

01:05:58   which is really cool.

01:06:00   With the, on the iPad, you tap it

01:06:02   and it just brings up a note which is sandboxed.

01:06:06   You can't access your other notes

01:06:07   until you unlock the device. - Until you unlock it.

01:06:09   - But you're able to just take notes really quickly,

01:06:11   which I think is really cool.

01:06:13   There's also like the ability to draw directly

01:06:15   into some applications.

01:06:18   So Notes and Mail have it.

01:06:19   I assume this is a developer API as well,

01:06:21   where you're able to,

01:06:22   rather than enter a specific drawing mode,

01:06:25   you can just draw,

01:06:26   as well as this new screenshot function,

01:06:29   where you take a screenshot on the iPad,

01:06:30   it flies down to the bottom left hand corner,

01:06:32   you can mark up and send it.

01:06:33   - Right, yeah, you can grab it, draw it, yeah.

01:06:35   - So amazing.

01:06:36   But what they have made sure to keep

01:06:39   is the ability to maintain what me and you fought hard

01:06:44   to keep, which is the ability to be able to use

01:06:47   the Apple Pencil as a UI manipulation tool

01:06:49   to use it as a replacement for the finger,

01:06:52   to the point where there is some settings somewhere

01:06:54   where you're actually able to turn off

01:06:56   this instant drawing functionality,

01:06:58   so you can keep moving around notes.

01:07:01   Now, I was really surprised to see that.

01:07:04   I figured the applications where they allow you

01:07:07   to just start drawing in them, they would take it away.

01:07:10   - Yeah, that, I was, anyone who's following on Twitter,

01:07:13   no, like I was getting very anxious

01:07:15   because I was looking at a lot of,

01:07:16   because when they're demoing the,

01:07:18   oh, here's how you draw on the screenshot thing,

01:07:19   here's how you do a whole bunch of stuff,

01:07:21   it looks like you're just drawing

01:07:25   on the screen immediately.

01:07:27   And I was watching all the videos incredibly closely,

01:07:30   like I just wanna see someone press a button

01:07:32   with the Apple Pencil, and they never do.

01:07:35   And I was extremely worried about it.

01:07:37   But yeah, it's such a huge deal, such a big relief

01:07:42   that they were able to add all of these interesting features

01:07:47   that are related to this instant drawing,

01:07:50   which we think was the original vision

01:07:52   of how the Pencil would work.

01:07:54   They were able to add all of those features

01:07:57   while keeping UI navigation with the Pencil.

01:08:00   I think it's fantastic.

01:08:02   I feel like if anybody on that interface team

01:08:06   is listening to this,

01:08:07   I want to personally thank you for this because it's--

01:08:09   - It's so important to us.

01:08:11   - Yeah, I cannot express in words adequately

01:08:14   how much of a big deal that is to me.

01:08:17   So my personal thanks goes out to anyone

01:08:21   who worked on that, and I understand that

01:08:24   adding that additional functionality

01:08:27   while keeping UI navigation was not an easy thing to do.

01:08:31   Like I can see that. - And adding a setting.

01:08:33   - Yeah, yeah. - As well, right?

01:08:34   Which rightly so in a lot of ways,

01:08:38   Apple was very reluctant to add settings to things

01:08:40   to try and keep the user interface simple.

01:08:43   So to have that is great.

01:08:44   I did say at the time, and I do mean this,

01:08:46   that if it was gone in certain applications

01:08:49   like Notes or Mail, I would have accepted it.

01:08:52   Because my problem at the time was

01:08:55   when an Apple originally took this away in like,

01:08:57   was it like iOS 10 beta something?

01:09:00   - Yeah, it was like, yeah, the second beta it disappeared.

01:09:03   - There was no reason, there was no added functionality.

01:09:07   And I think I remember saying at the time

01:09:08   that I would have been happy

01:09:10   if we could see why.

01:09:12   And all it seemed like at the time was,

01:09:14   boo hoo, I don't like you using my software in this way.

01:09:18   Because there was no functionality that was being added.

01:09:21   Like this is functionality that is added,

01:09:23   and you're like, okay, I can see why maybe I can't scroll

01:09:25   in Apple Notes anymore.

01:09:28   But there was nothing like that.

01:09:29   It just seemed like they were preparing for this then,

01:09:32   by just like, take it away,

01:09:34   rather than trying to fix and provide the solution.

01:09:37   So if it would have been gone in Notes,

01:09:39   So I've gone, okay, there is additional functionality here,

01:09:43   I'll understand.

01:09:44   But I'm really happy that's not the case.

01:09:47   - Yeah, I'm extremely happy.

01:09:48   - I'm more happy this way,

01:09:50   but I would have at least accepted it.

01:09:52   We would be on this show right now

01:09:53   and I wouldn't be complaining,

01:09:54   I wouldn't be begging like we did last time.

01:09:57   I would have said it's a shame, I understand.

01:09:59   I use apps that are like this.

01:10:00   So I use Notability quite a lot.

01:10:03   And if you have the pencil,

01:10:04   you have to use your finger as well to move,

01:10:07   or you switch into a different mode.

01:10:09   And I get it, it's like, but you know, it's always there.

01:10:11   I can just swipe in and write, swipe in and write.

01:10:14   It's fine.

01:10:14   It was just like, I didn't,

01:10:15   then wanted to be able to go back to the home screen

01:10:17   and tap around as I did.

01:10:19   So the fact that it's all there and it's all maintained,

01:10:23   it's such a big win for usability

01:10:25   and it is an accessibility feature.

01:10:27   - Yeah, it 100% is.

01:10:29   - Like injuries through repetitive strain injury, RSI,

01:10:34   which me and you both have,

01:10:35   new to a much worse extent than me,

01:10:39   It allows us to continue to be able to work

01:10:42   for long periods of time because we can switch modes.

01:10:45   - Yeah, I was at breakfast this morning

01:10:48   with essentially eight people,

01:10:51   and there was, the youngest one of us at the table

01:10:55   was describing that she was beginning

01:10:57   to get the first signs of RSI.

01:11:00   And immediately, right, everybody at the table,

01:11:04   we are all people who make a living on computers.

01:11:08   It was like everyone leaned in and was just focusing

01:11:12   on how central this is.

01:11:13   Like you are younger than us if you're getting

01:11:16   the beginnings of this, like focus on it right now.

01:11:19   It's like everybody at that table who makes a living

01:11:21   on computers in one form or another has to focus

01:11:26   on an RSI issue or an ergonomic issue in their own way

01:11:31   for their own thing.

01:11:32   And yeah, that's why I think the pencil as a stylist

01:11:35   for some people and I'm in that category is a vital input accessibility feature and it

01:11:43   really helps avoid injuries for people.

01:11:46   The ability to use a pen on my Mac with my Wacom tablet saved my hand. Like my right

01:11:53   hand has been saved by the fact that I can use my left hand. I'm unique in this way where

01:11:59   I'm extremely lucky that I am left handed for writing and right handed for mouse and

01:12:05   track pad manipulation because I can do the most magical thing. I give my hands a break.

01:12:12   It's not just that I'm able to swap around like I'm very lucky in this way. So all of

01:12:16   my teasing as a kid for being left handed, look at me now! So I'm really lucky that way

01:12:22   but it is this ability to be able to switch modes to grip in a different way. To be able

01:12:28   to hold a pen which is more natural to us because we do it from a much earlier age.

01:12:32   I don't think any of it's natural, but for whatever reason that is more than holding

01:12:35   a mouse.

01:12:36   Which makes me think, by the way, I was talking to Adina about this recently, I wonder if

01:12:43   and how these things will change in the next 10 or 15 years.

01:12:48   Like if kids today, or maybe in a generation younger than me or you, won't get RSI problems

01:12:55   in their hands for using trackpads and mice as much as we did.

01:12:59   - Well, my suspicion is that if,

01:13:03   and I know we've discussed this on the show

01:13:05   back when we were talking about this originally,

01:13:06   but if you think about your hand,

01:13:08   your gripping muscles are much stronger

01:13:11   than your opening your hand muscles, right?

01:13:13   You can just feel it.

01:13:14   And if you hold out your arm in front of you

01:13:17   and you open your hand,

01:13:19   you can feel, particularly in your index

01:13:23   and your middle finger, that holding it up

01:13:26   is much more of a strain than keeping a closed fist.

01:13:30   - Okay, I see where you're going.

01:13:32   - You can feel it in your hands,

01:13:34   and so the iPad as a touch surface is nothing but

01:13:39   reach out with your hand and pull your index

01:13:42   and middle finger back, right?

01:13:43   You're doing that hundreds and hundreds of times.

01:13:46   So everybody's body is different

01:13:48   in terms of what are they more susceptible to,

01:13:51   but I'm willing to bet that a higher portion

01:13:54   of the population, if you expose them

01:13:55   to that repetitive motion of keep your index

01:13:58   and middle finger up, I think a higher proportion

01:14:01   of them will develop strained injuries

01:14:04   as compared to keep your fist closed,

01:14:08   which is the hand position for holding a pen.

01:14:12   - Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

01:14:13   That explains, so I wonder, is it something anatomical

01:14:18   or is it just that we start at an earlier age,

01:14:21   so that we're kind of just more used to it?

01:14:23   That makes a lot of sense.

01:14:25   And I really wonder, like, all this time using touch screens,

01:14:30   I don't know.

01:14:31   I don't know, 'cause I think it is unproven right now

01:14:33   how ergonomic the iPad is and the iPhone is.

01:14:36   Like, I don't think we really know.

01:14:38   - Yeah, we really don't.

01:14:39   - If it's just destroying us or not.

01:14:41   Like, I think we're too far.

01:14:42   Oh, so my hands are really hurting me now.

01:14:45   Like, now we've been talking about it,

01:14:46   it's like, oh, my wrists.

01:14:47   - Yeah, you can feel every muscle.

01:14:50   Every muscle and tendon slowly degrading

01:14:53   as you age and use them.

01:14:55   [sighs]

01:14:57   I once, a while back, I can't remember the name of the story,

01:15:00   but I once read a science fiction book about a race of aliens that are essentially made of sand,

01:15:05   and so they have to be very careful about everything that they do and touch

01:15:10   so they're aware that every interaction with the world really costs them

01:15:14   because they're constantly rubbing off on all of the surfaces.

01:15:17   And we are just like that over a longer timescale.

01:15:20   We're all fading into sand over time, Myke.

01:15:24   Every time you touch your iPad.

01:15:26   But anyway, awesome to keep you on navigation.

01:15:29   Thank you so much, Apple team.

01:15:31   I really appreciate it.

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01:16:59   So we are both currently in San Jose as I mentioned and I'm going to be flying back

01:17:03   home to London tomorrow.

01:17:05   I think the iPads come out on like Tuesday of next week.

01:17:10   So I'll hopefully own one by about the time this episode will be coming out.

01:17:15   So I didn't actually, this is my usual thing, I didn't buy online.

01:17:19   I want to just go to the store, get it in my little grubby hands, and go back home again.

01:17:25   I'm not waiting around for no delivery, man.

01:17:28   Did I tell you about what happened to me when I bought the Switch?

01:17:31   No.

01:17:32   So I bought three Nintendo Switches, right?

01:17:34   Oh god, okay, three?

01:17:36   I think I heard a while back you were planning on buying two.

01:17:40   I ordered, I pre-ordered three because I wanted to make sure I got it on day one.

01:17:43   I've had so many problems, especially with Amazon.

01:17:45   Yeah.

01:17:46   But like I, when I pre-ordered the PSVR headset and then they emailed me on the morning,

01:17:49   they were like, "Yeah, we ain't even got them."

01:17:51   It was like the worst, just so annoying because I'm a terrible person.

01:17:54   So you wanted to ensure delivery.

01:17:56   This is not the multi-switch lifestyle.

01:17:58   Exactly.

01:17:59   Okay.

01:17:59   Ensure delivery.

01:18:00   Two of, one of them I sold to my brother, one I returned.

01:18:02   Okay.

01:18:02   He was purely just, I was just spreading the risk, right?

01:18:05   Got it.

01:18:06   On the morning that they were being delivered,

01:18:10   I had a guy coming to fit a fan in the bathroom and he calls me and he's like, "Your intercom's

01:18:15   broken."

01:18:16   And I'm like, "F*ck this.

01:18:23   I have three Nintendo Switches coming today."

01:18:25   So do you want to know what I did?

01:18:28   Did you sit down in front of the door like a little sad-o?

01:18:31   Got a chair, sat it by the window, and I was watching out on the street for the delivery

01:18:37   guy and like half an hour later I see a guy like an Amazon guy walking over a bunch of

01:18:42   boxes and I'm like just watching him and he comes to the door and I like just open the

01:18:48   door and I'm like I'm coming downstairs. I got, they all came.

01:18:53   I like the idea that as you were doing this, the song "The Waiting is the Hardest Part"

01:18:58   by Tom Petty is playing in the background. Because I can't do anything other than look

01:19:01   because I've got to watch out for the delivery drivers, right? So I'm just sitting there

01:19:04   the whole time and I'm so pleased that it arrived early in the morning not like 2 p.m.

01:19:08   in the afternoon. I'm a terrible person. I'm more of my terrible person this but I was

01:19:12   really excited about the switch and you know what it's freaking worth it because I love

01:19:16   that thing. You're very excited about it. We took like an 11 hour flight me and Federico

01:19:20   to get here. We were able to fill half of that time playing Mario Kart. That's that's

01:19:24   good use of the switch. It was pretty great. It was pretty great. So I'm gonna be getting

01:19:30   an iPad. I'm gonna be buying the 10.5. That's the one I'm gonna be buying because it's the

01:19:34   new one and I want to try it out I want to see what it's like. However, I do not foresee

01:19:41   me moving away from the moddipad lifestyle because I bring the smaller iPad when I travel

01:19:48   mostly, it's mostly my out of the house computer so when I travel when I go out to work somewhere

01:19:54   I would take the smaller one. When I'm at home working I have the bigger one so over

01:19:59   time what I originally thought was how it would shake out is how it would shake out.

01:20:02   My large iPad Pro is like my desktop machine and my small iPad Pro is like my laptop.

01:20:08   That's kind of how it has shaken out for me.

01:20:10   But I want to get the 10.5 first because it's the newer one.

01:20:13   It looks new, it has new stuff, big as green, it just looks new.

01:20:16   But I intend on buying the bigger one at some point in the future as well.

01:20:24   And I'm wondering what your multi-pad lifestyle plan is for these.

01:20:31   I would expect it's going to be in the inverse.

01:20:34   - Okay, so my current setup is that I don't have

01:20:41   a 9.7 inch iPad Pro that is mine.

01:20:46   So what happened in my household?

01:20:49   - My household is in disarray right now

01:20:54   because the iPad Mini seems to be going away.

01:20:56   - Okay, so let's talk about the iPad Mini for a second.

01:20:59   - Okay.

01:21:00   Where we should start the story is that over the past many years,

01:21:04   the iPad mini has become for my wife,

01:21:08   her general purpose computer.

01:21:10   I am astounded at her ability to use that as her

01:21:16   everything machine.

01:21:17   She must be proportionally the right size to use the key like the how fast she

01:21:21   can type on the iPad mini keyboard screen. Like it blows my mind.

01:21:25   And I look like a doddering old man when I try to use the software keyboard.

01:21:29   I can blame that on Dvorak though, but it's still,

01:21:31   I could type so slowly, but she just, you know,

01:21:33   types it all. - Dvorak was perfect.

01:21:35   - But they don't have a Dvorak keyboard for iPad,

01:21:38   that's what it is, Myke.

01:21:40   So she's been using that for years as her main computer.

01:21:44   Now the position that she is in,

01:21:49   is going back to our earlier conversation,

01:21:51   she recently started developing her own RSI problems

01:21:56   from using the iPad and I suspect the same way

01:21:59   of holding her fingers back over the screen.

01:22:02   And so as soon as that started happening,

01:22:03   I'm like, okay, you're not pushing this any further.

01:22:06   And I gave her my small iPad Pro to use with the Pencil.

01:22:11   And she totally fell in love with using the Pencil.

01:22:16   This is just like I was really pushing

01:22:18   the Wacom tablet on you a long time ago.

01:22:20   Like the Pencil is a great interface

01:22:22   and everyone I have ever been able to successfully

01:22:25   get them to try using it on a computer.

01:22:26   They've eventually adopted it and loved it.

01:22:29   I feel like it's the same thing with the Pencil.

01:22:31   - Once again, we will say buy a Wacom tablet,

01:22:33   set it to pen mode, and try it for a week.

01:22:36   - Yeah, you have to do it that way.

01:22:39   - That is the steps.

01:22:40   And also currently we are both using the Intuos Pro.

01:22:43   - Yep, yeah, it's fantastic.

01:22:45   - Absolutely fantastic.

01:22:46   It has buttons that you can set to do shortcuts.

01:22:49   It's just brilliant.

01:22:50   - It's a really great piece of hardware.

01:22:53   But yeah, so my wife then started using the pencil

01:22:55   with her iPad, which was my old 9.7.

01:22:59   Now, where we were in what I thought was going to be

01:23:04   the life cycle of the iPad, I thought,

01:23:06   "Oh, this'll just be for a couple months."

01:23:08   - Ah, ah-ha. - Right?

01:23:09   And it ended up being like-- - We'll fool you, Greg.

01:23:10   - Yeah, exactly. (laughing)

01:23:12   It ended up being like a year without this small iPad,

01:23:16   which I know what this sounds like,

01:23:19   but I cannot describe how much of a disruption

01:23:21   this actually was because of the way that I like to

01:23:24   split and divide my work and I just,

01:23:27   it's just this creeping delay of every month

01:23:30   I thought well I'm not gonna buy another one now,

01:23:33   like it's crazy, and every month it goes by

01:23:34   it's crazier and crazier.

01:23:36   So she's been using that thing.

01:23:38   But, sounds like we have something in common here

01:23:41   because while my wife loves using the pencil

01:23:44   as UI navigation, she'll never go back,

01:23:47   she's not a big fan of the bigger size, right?

01:23:51   She has been saying to me,

01:23:53   "I can't wait for them to come out with the mini

01:23:56   "with pencil support."

01:23:57   And I have been trying so hard to be like,

01:24:00   "I just want to be clear.

01:24:03   "I don't think this is going to happen.

01:24:05   "You need to prepare yourself for that."

01:24:07   And this has been a thought that has been,

01:24:10   I think I have been incapable of putting it in her,

01:24:13   like lodging it properly in her mind

01:24:15   because it keeps coming back up where it'll be like,

01:24:17   "Oh, I'm really looking forward

01:24:18   "to having the mini with pencil support."

01:24:19   like okay, but I think you might wanna prepare yourself

01:24:22   that the Mini might not be around,

01:24:23   like you might need to do this.

01:24:25   So just a small thing to go, just to double back again,

01:24:28   that UI that you were talking about before

01:24:32   where you can have the pencil touch the screen

01:24:35   and pop you right into a note and just start writing,

01:24:38   when I saw that, that UI alone made me feel even more

01:24:43   like I really wish they did make a Mini

01:24:45   that worked with the pencil because--

01:24:48   - That's a notepad.

01:24:49   - That UI is like, it's begging to be a notepad.

01:24:54   It really, really is begging to be a notepad.

01:24:57   I suspect since they didn't update the Mini this time,

01:25:00   like it's not gonna happen,

01:25:01   and especially not like pen support with the Mini,

01:25:04   if they ever do update the Mini.

01:25:05   - The current state of the Mini is not good.

01:25:08   They are only selling one model of it.

01:25:10   It's the most expensive with the highest storage option.

01:25:14   That is not a good sign, along with a lot of rumors

01:25:17   that are saying they're getting rid of it.

01:25:18   - Yeah, it really isn't a good sign.

01:25:20   But looking at that UI for quickly being able

01:25:25   to write a note, it feels like it's almost designed

01:25:29   for someone to have a little notepad with them

01:25:32   that they can write on.

01:25:34   It feels so perfect, but it's not around, so.

01:25:38   - So you know when you're a fan of a technology company,

01:25:41   especially Apple, and someone in your life

01:25:46   is upset at that company?

01:25:47   And then they start treating you as if you're the issue here.

01:25:52   - Yes, it's like, why are you getting rid of the Mini?

01:25:56   Like, oh no, wait, wait.

01:25:58   - You wanna argue on behalf of the company that you like,

01:26:01   where it's like, you know, the argument that I had

01:26:05   with Adina about this, not like we weren't

01:26:07   showering each other, I was being Apple in this.

01:26:10   And it's like, they know how many of these devices they sell

01:26:14   and if they sold lots of iPad Minis,

01:26:16   they would keep making the iPad mini.

01:26:18   I think they're not selling a lot of iPad minis.

01:26:20   And I know that there is this like,

01:26:22   there is a cycle which you can argue

01:26:24   that if you're not updating it, you're not gonna sell it.

01:26:26   But I think they're smarter than that

01:26:28   and they can look at trends over time.

01:26:30   And I think the iPad mini used to sell really well,

01:26:33   but over time has not so much.

01:26:35   - Right.

01:26:36   - And the iPad mini that Edina owns is my old iPad mini 2.

01:26:41   And I had been trying to convince her for a long time

01:26:44   to update that.

01:26:45   And now we're at a point where updating it

01:26:47   is a ridiculous thing to do.

01:26:49   Because it is more expensive than the regular iPad now.

01:26:54   It's like, it's like 400 or 500 pounds

01:26:56   to buy an iPad mini right now.

01:26:58   So I mean, the suggestion of maybe you should use

01:27:04   the kitchen iPad, the iPad Air 2,

01:27:07   that was not met very kindly as a solution.

01:27:11   So I don't know what we're gonna do.

01:27:13   - Yeah, it's interesting.

01:27:15   I know a bunch of people who are fans of the iPad mini,

01:27:19   like really big fans.

01:27:21   - And it's only the same reaction that me and you had

01:27:24   when we thought that like, where is our iPad, right?

01:27:27   Like it's the same reaction of how dare you?

01:27:29   - Yeah, it definitely is.

01:27:33   That is just a long way of saying,

01:27:35   one, I am said on a personal level twice

01:27:40   that there is not a mini pro, because I know,

01:27:43   that could not be the more perfect machine for my wife.

01:27:47   And I also think there would be a real market

01:27:51   for like a notebook size thing

01:27:54   to make handwritten notes on.

01:27:56   But I just don't think that's going to happen.

01:27:59   - And the first rule of multi-pad club is more iPads.

01:28:02   - Right, more iPads. - Right, like, you know,

01:28:03   like a reason to own a third for a different use

01:28:06   is only a good thing.

01:28:07   - I personally would not get a mini Pro.

01:28:10   I really wouldn't-- - Really?

01:28:11   Okay. - I really wouldn't

01:28:12   I wouldn't want it anyway. Like it's too close to the phone.

01:28:15   Yeah, asterisk here. I love pencil support on the phone.

01:28:19   Me too.

01:28:20   And I'll tell you, not from my end, but someone in my household occasionally curses very loudly

01:28:26   when she's using her iPad Pro with the pencil.

01:28:30   You're giving it away now.

01:28:31   No, I'm not giving anything away. She's using the iPad Pro, a 9.7, with her pencil

01:28:37   and reaches over to tap something on her phone

01:28:41   and it does nothing, it's like being shocked with electricity

01:28:45   I really hope they do bring pencil support to the iPhone

01:28:49   at some point, I'm not holding my breath but it would be nice

01:28:52   but yeah so that is the situation

01:28:56   I am planning on getting both of the new iPad pros

01:29:00   at the same time? I am planning on getting them at the same time because

01:29:04   what I want to do is I want to

01:29:06   go back to the situation that I had before,

01:29:10   when I had a smaller iPad Pro before it got used

01:29:13   in another way, of having an ability to separate out

01:29:18   different areas of my working life.

01:29:21   And in particular, the place I really,

01:29:25   the only place that I don't like the 12-9 is on the couch.

01:29:30   I feel like it is too big of a machine

01:29:32   to be using on the couch.

01:29:34   I feel like it's almost a wall between you

01:29:37   and the other people on the couch.

01:29:38   It's too big of a screen.

01:29:40   It's like distracting for the other person

01:29:42   who's on the couch.

01:29:43   It's the only place I don't like it.

01:29:44   And that's where I would definitely wanna use

01:29:46   a smaller machine.

01:29:47   And when I had the 9-7, I always found that I was actually

01:29:51   like a really great admin machine sitting on the couch.

01:29:55   And so that is my plan for the 10-5,

01:29:58   is to use it in that way and like in that situation,

01:30:01   in particular in a few other things.

01:30:02   but the 12.9 is still going to be my main general purpose computer that I use for everything

01:30:10   that's not a specialized task.

01:30:13   One thing though is I haven't actually seen a 12.9 yet and I'm a little bit scared of

01:30:19   that because the 12.9 inch iPad has also gained the True Tone display.

01:30:27   display the true tone display with the 120 megahertz refresh rate is gonna be

01:30:34   bonkers so I'm worried that like I'm gonna go to the store to get my 10.5

01:30:41   mm-hmm and I'm just gonna take a look at 12.9 right and walk out with both of

01:30:46   them which I don't really want to do straight away. There's gonna be little sparkles around it, there's gonna be a little spotlight coming down from the

01:30:53   ceiling happy music and you're not going to be able to resist is that your

01:30:56   That is my concern. I mean I have my iPad fund because I got to save for longer than

01:31:04   I was expecting for my refreshes. So the money is there anyway.

01:31:09   Oh it's bought already.

01:31:11   It's probably.

01:31:12   We know how that is.

01:31:13   I mean the reason is, is like I know I'm going to do it and it's my plan to refresh them

01:31:17   both but it was I wanted to be able to spend more time with the newest hardware like the

01:31:23   the 10.5 before having them both so I could really put the 10.5 through its paces.

01:31:30   But we'll see how it ends up when I actually go to the store.

01:31:33   Oh, new keyboards as well.

01:31:35   So the 10.9 inch is obviously bigger.

01:31:38   It's bigger.

01:31:39   The keys are bigger.

01:31:40   Have you played with this new smart keyboard at all?

01:31:43   Yeah, I've had a chance to play with the smart keyboard on the 10.5.

01:31:49   It looks bigger.

01:31:50   I mean, when I look at it, I can see it's bigger.

01:31:53   - Yeah, it's, I had an outside hope

01:31:56   that maybe there'd be a way to use the 10.5

01:31:59   as the main machine,

01:32:01   because I really like the smart keyboard cover,

01:32:04   but I have to have a full-size keyboard.

01:32:07   It's a real deal breaker.

01:32:08   The 10.5 smart keyboard, it's so close,

01:32:13   but it's just maybe two centimeters too short,

01:32:18   and that's just enough that when I start typing quickly,

01:32:21   I start, like the number of mistakes goes up very, very fast.

01:32:25   So I can't use that as a general purpose machine.

01:32:30   I do love the lightness of it.

01:32:32   It is a big win, 'cause the 12.9 is like

01:32:35   just under my heaviness threshold.

01:32:37   - It's a tank.

01:32:38   - It is a total tank.

01:32:40   If it was two tenths of a pound heavier,

01:32:41   I would never use it, but I find it like it's,

01:32:46   it's just under that threshold for me,

01:32:47   so I'm totally fine and the trade-off of having a real full-size keyboard is completely worth it.

01:32:52   If you're a person who found the old 9-7 smart keyboard just a little too small,

01:32:58   you might be perfectly fine with it with the 10-5 keyboard. It is bigger,

01:33:01   but it's just a little too small for me still.

01:33:04   And there's like, you've seen this like sleeve?

01:33:08   Oh yeah, yeah.

01:33:10   This like, what I looked at and thought was a completely pointless thing, this leather sleeve.

01:33:15   - Yeah, they showed that on screen at the keynote.

01:33:19   I was like, "Well, that's dumb."

01:33:21   And then I saw it in person.

01:33:22   - And it looks real good.

01:33:24   It's the equivalent of where you'd see an old desk

01:33:29   and it would have a piece of leather built into the desk

01:33:31   as the writing pad area.

01:33:33   It reminds me of that. - Yeah, that's exactly it.

01:33:35   Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

01:33:36   - So you take your iPad out

01:33:37   and you put your little leather sleeve down

01:33:39   and you take the pencil out of the little well

01:33:41   that they have for it.

01:33:42   It's really nice.

01:33:43   It's a nice accessory and it's,

01:33:45   if I was ever gonna use something like that,

01:33:48   it would be seen as like something

01:33:50   to put in and out of a bag.

01:33:51   - Yeah, that's it.

01:33:53   The thing that made me reconsider that is,

01:33:56   one, it looks really nice in person.

01:33:58   It works with the cover of the iPad,

01:34:01   which I never, I just assumed that it wouldn't, right?

01:34:03   I thought like it would be a replacement

01:34:05   for having the smart cover.

01:34:05   - It's actually made for that.

01:34:07   - Yeah.

01:34:08   - That has been measured to be used

01:34:09   with the keyboard cover attached.

01:34:10   - Yeah, and that totally changes it

01:34:12   because in my mind I just assumed,

01:34:14   oh, this is not what it's for.

01:34:15   It is an alternative cover.

01:34:17   It's not meant to be used with a keyboard cover.

01:34:19   So as soon as I realized that, like, that's great,

01:34:21   because when I'm traveling in particular,

01:34:23   that's one time I'm very aware

01:34:25   of trying not to lose the pencil.

01:34:27   And I feel like my brain is always on high alert

01:34:31   about where's the pencil when I'm traveling.

01:34:34   And that makes that case really nice,

01:34:37   that I have a unit on an airplane that I can pull out.

01:34:40   It has both pieces that I need.

01:34:42   I can put both pieces back and slap it back into the suitcase when I'm done.

01:34:46   So I think I'll pick up one of those for travel usage if nothing else.

01:34:51   There is one other accessory which is just a leather cover case for the pencil.

01:34:59   I think that's not going to happen.

01:35:02   It's pointless and ridiculous.

01:35:03   That's not going to happen.

01:35:04   Like it doesn't change it in any way.

01:35:06   Like it doesn't do anything.

01:35:07   Like the pencil is this indestructible piece of acrylic plastic.

01:35:11   It doesn't need protecting.

01:35:12   - It doesn't.

01:35:13   It's like, oh, we got scuffed.

01:35:14   - Yeah, I'm incredibly rough on my hardware.

01:35:19   I've never noticed anything with the pencil,

01:35:21   like even scratches.

01:35:23   And it's like, I'm rolling it through sand

01:35:25   and gravel every day.

01:35:26   I never notice anything.

01:35:27   - Good, and on the construction site

01:35:29   where the iPad is used.

01:35:30   - Yeah.

01:35:31   - The last, one of the last things on the multi-pad lifestyle

01:35:35   and it is a tenet of the lifestyle

01:35:40   is what happens to the previous devices.

01:35:43   So if we both replace our current equipment,

01:35:47   where do the old ones go?

01:35:50   - I wish, I'm just looking around the room right now,

01:35:53   we're in your room, I wish we were in my room

01:35:55   because I would show you what my current

01:35:58   12.9 inch iPad looks like.

01:36:01   And it had a big drop like a year ago.

01:36:06   - Oh.

01:36:08   And I thought, oh, it totally dented out the corner.

01:36:13   And I thought, ah, whatever, it's not a big deal.

01:36:15   But over the months, what has been happening is

01:36:19   the screen is slowly, slowly separating.

01:36:23   - Uh-oh.

01:36:24   - On my 12/9, and just like I kept thinking,

01:36:28   oh, any day now, they'll release one.

01:36:30   It's like, I would never have lived with this

01:36:32   as a hardware problem for as long as I did,

01:36:34   but I kept thinking, oh, I'm gonna be replacing

01:36:36   this machine any day now.

01:36:38   because it was like, oh, I'll play something in September.

01:36:39   Oh, it'll be March.

01:36:40   - Yeah, exactly, right.

01:36:41   Oh, it'll be March, right, yeah.

01:36:43   And if it's not March, it's like,

01:36:44   well, it's gotta be WWDC, right?

01:36:46   It's like, yeah.

01:36:47   - God, you could be using that thing forever.

01:36:48   - Yeah, it is the most banged up hardware that I have.

01:36:53   So that 12.9 is not long for this world anyway,

01:36:57   so that thing is going to nobody

01:36:59   because it'll slice their hands open

01:37:01   on the side where the screen is.

01:37:03   So that thing is just gone.

01:37:05   My wife is going to keep using the smaller iPad Pro

01:37:07   because she doesn't want anything that's bigger.

01:37:09   She already thinks that one is too big.

01:37:11   So that'll stick around.

01:37:13   So this is actually, for me,

01:37:14   essentially a hardware replacement cycle.

01:37:16   - Yeah, okay.

01:37:17   But for me, I think I'm just gonna shuffle them

01:37:19   down the line.

01:37:20   So the current 9.7 will become the kitchen iPad.

01:37:23   - Right, right.

01:37:24   - Or it will become Adina's iPad if she can bear it.

01:37:27   And then the current kitchen iPad, which is in there too,

01:37:30   will go to another member of my family.

01:37:32   At 12.9, I have no idea.

01:37:34   I don't know what I'm gonna do with that yet.

01:37:35   'cause I don't know if anyone will want it.

01:37:39   Just because it's a specific device

01:37:41   for a specific type of person.

01:37:43   - Yeah, exactly.

01:37:44   - And so I'll have to ask around family and friends

01:37:46   if anybody wants to take it off my hands,

01:37:48   the covered in sticker device that it is.

01:37:50   - Yeah, I mean, it's funny.

01:37:53   You say it's a specific device for a specific person,

01:37:56   but I can't remember if I've mentioned on the show or not,

01:37:58   but when that iPad Pro came out,

01:38:04   In my family, we had a tech support decision

01:38:06   which was transitioning my aunt from this MacBook

01:38:10   that she had that was like an eight year old MacBook.

01:38:14   - One of the plastic ones or a metal one?

01:38:16   - Yeah, it was like, it was so old.

01:38:20   It was so old that Apple would refuse

01:38:23   to do any support on it.

01:38:25   And it was a really interesting experience

01:38:27   because her needs were so minimal for computing.

01:38:31   and she just does web browsing and email.

01:38:34   She doesn't even really do texts or anything.

01:38:37   But when it came around to thinking like,

01:38:38   oh, what are we gonna do with my aunt

01:38:40   because this thing is not gonna make it

01:38:42   until the next time I come and visit, right?

01:38:44   It's like all the tech support builds up

01:38:46   for every time I go to visit my family

01:38:48   and we're realizing like it's not gonna last

01:38:51   until the next time that I come so we have to do something.

01:38:55   And I took a gamble with that and I decided,

01:38:58   let's put my aunt on the 12.9 inch iPad Pro.

01:39:02   Now she's the most unpro user in the world,

01:39:05   and she loves that machine.

01:39:09   It's so interesting to see that like,

01:39:12   oh actually, on the reverse end of the spectrum,

01:39:16   this is a perfect computer.

01:39:18   It has a full size hardware keyboard,

01:39:23   and if you set it up so there's just a couple buttons

01:39:25   on the home screen, here's your email,

01:39:28   Here's your web browser, here's some maps.

01:39:30   - And no one can mess around with it, right?

01:39:33   - There's no way it can be broken.

01:39:35   The tech support requirement is minimum,

01:39:39   and it has, like we were saying before,

01:39:41   this feature of there's no drop-down menus to find stuff in.

01:39:45   It's like everything is just on the screen to touch.

01:39:48   So I have actually found like it's very interesting to me

01:39:53   that my aunt has taken to that and totally loves it.

01:39:58   And so in a weird way, it's actually a very good machine

01:40:02   on the total reverse end of the spectrum.

01:40:05   And she uses it just like a little laptop.

01:40:07   I'm not 100% sure she knows the screen even comes off, right?

01:40:09   But it's just a laptop to her.

01:40:12   And she's like, "Oh, the software is different."

01:40:14   And she's great.

01:40:15   It was no problem at all.

01:40:16   - Oh?

01:40:17   - Yes, exactly.

01:40:18   - My computer grew.

01:40:19   - Yeah.

01:40:20   - Is this what we wanna agree?

01:40:22   Do you feel, do you feel,

01:40:25   placated isn't the word, are you satisfied?

01:40:28   I mean we spent a lot of time recently talking about

01:40:31   that we were unhappy with the way that things are gonna,

01:40:34   I've been kind of thinking about this,

01:40:36   that like WWDC 2016 to WWDC 2017

01:40:41   was an era of dissatisfaction and pessimism

01:40:44   in the Apple community,

01:40:46   which led to me and you rethinking

01:40:47   how we wanted to move going forward.

01:40:49   We felt like we were on all fronts losing.

01:40:52   Right? Like even our Macs were losing out,

01:40:54   which is the least important of our devices.

01:40:57   And we kind of felt like the pro users of Apple

01:41:00   were being left out in the cold.

01:41:02   - It was a long walk through the valley of darkness.

01:41:05   - Yeah. Like without a doubt.

01:41:07   Like it's just been bad.

01:41:08   But as you said earlier in the episode,

01:41:13   WWDC 2017, everyone got everything they wanted.

01:41:17   So how do you feel?

01:41:19   So in our previous episode, I mentioned that if I got everything that I wanted, it would still not be enough.

01:41:28   And here's the thing, that statement is true. I stand by that statement because what I want to see is not just,

01:41:41   "Oh, we've had a magical year and everybody got everything they wanted," which, while

01:41:47   I'm extremely happy, there is still that feeling of, like, some of this stuff just

01:41:50   feels way overdue. Like, it should have been sooner. Like, seeing it now, I can understand

01:41:55   maybe why, like, okay, multitasking, you were doing a UI refresh with it, like, I can see

01:42:00   why these things took a long time, but nonetheless, there still is a little bit of a feeling of,

01:42:04   like, "Okay, Apple, we're back on the level. You put on an amazing show, right? It's like

01:42:09   Like you've got elephants and lions and magic boxes and it's great.

01:42:12   You put on an amazing show and I'm like, I'm satisfied. I'm satisfied.

01:42:15   Very happy and also satisfied. So I feel that way.

01:42:20   It was a great WWDC.

01:42:21   I really want to congratulate everybody who was working on it. Like it's,

01:42:24   it's fantastic. I do have that feeling of,

01:42:28   I will be truly happy when I see that it is less than two years until this

01:42:35   happens again, like on my personal wish list for WWDC,

01:42:40   the number one item was less than two years

01:42:44   until the next major round of iPad improvements.

01:42:47   And I have that feeling, but I can also say

01:42:53   that I feel very confident that it won't be

01:42:57   two years until that happens.

01:42:59   - Why?

01:43:04   because I don't think that the magic box

01:43:07   with a gift for everybody was an accident.

01:43:10   Like, thinking back over that keynote

01:43:12   and looking at all of the things that they did,

01:43:15   I didn't realize it until after the keynote was over

01:43:19   how much of the stuff they talked about was future stuff.

01:43:24   Right, like they wanted to hit everybody's got something.

01:43:28   And it was like, hey, we've got new Macs today,

01:43:32   but guess what, there's gonna be,

01:43:33   is totally awesome, iMac Pro, it's coming out in December,

01:43:36   right, and it's like, hey, we're working on a speaker,

01:43:38   okay, that's coming out later in the year.

01:43:40   And they went through everything

01:43:42   so that everybody can feel happy,

01:43:44   and that is such a departure

01:43:47   from the normal Apple way of operating.

01:43:50   - Of we'll wait 'til it's done.

01:43:52   - Yeah, we'll wait 'til it's done

01:43:53   and we'll tell you when it's available for sale right now.

01:43:56   And I just, maybe I'm interpreting it wrong,

01:44:00   but I really do feel like this was an intentional decision

01:44:03   to have a total crowd pleaser

01:44:08   and that is a great opportunity to be a reset button

01:44:12   of like let's make everybody happy there's something for everybody

01:44:16   and I am taking that as a very good sign that there's

01:44:20   an internal reassessment in Apple of

01:44:23   even if it's taking us longer to do stuff let's try to be better about

01:44:27   communicating it at the very least

01:44:29   and let's be aware of just updating stuff as we go along so

01:44:33   I may be proven wrong in the future,

01:44:36   but I feel very confident that it's not going to be

01:44:41   two years until the next round.

01:44:42   That I'm going to see you in San Jose next year

01:44:46   and I'll be able to tick off that top box

01:44:49   on this year's wish list if it's not gonna take

01:44:52   two years for this to happen again.

01:44:53   - I feel exactly the same as you,

01:44:55   but a little bit more so in that

01:44:57   I don't like having to be pessimistic all the time.

01:45:02   Like it's not--

01:45:02   It's terrible, it's no fun.

01:45:03   - It's really frustrating and it's not happy

01:45:06   and it makes me not enjoy my job as much.

01:45:10   My job has inbuilt and it's so much enjoyment for me

01:45:12   because I get to do and talk about the things that I love.

01:45:16   Spending the last maybe nine months being annoyed

01:45:20   and frustrated has made my job less fun.

01:45:23   So I'm, my current feeling right now

01:45:27   for the next 12 months is I'm gonna try

01:45:29   and be as optimistic as I can

01:45:31   because what I have in front of me right now

01:45:33   is really exciting.

01:45:34   - Yes.

01:45:35   - 'Cause I've been given all the tools

01:45:36   that I was looking for.

01:45:38   So I'm gonna try and enjoy them as much as possible

01:45:41   because I feel like that that is a thing that I can do.

01:45:43   Like I always try,

01:45:45   but last year was not really given anything.

01:45:47   So it was really, it was like a stretch.

01:45:49   You know, after the first like three or four, five months,

01:45:52   it just got really tricky because it was like,

01:45:54   okay, the software sucks,

01:45:56   but at least I'm gonna get, oh no, new hardware.

01:45:57   All right, then fine, I'll just,

01:45:59   well, new iPhones is, oh no, all right,

01:46:01   and I'll stick with the current,

01:46:02   the way the iPhone looks.

01:46:03   Like, really, we've got AirPods, which are fantastic.

01:46:08   That's kind of it, really, like in the grand scheme of things

01:46:10   the things that really surprised and made me happy

01:46:13   in the past year, that was the big one.

01:46:16   And everything else that I was hoping for,

01:46:18   I had to wait a bit longer for.

01:46:21   So now, I'm like, well I have all the stuff

01:46:23   that I wanted now, they gave it to me in one day.

01:46:26   And like, even the things that I'm not that hot on,

01:46:28   Like the HomePod, the Siri speaker music thing,

01:46:32   I just don't think is a product for me,

01:46:33   that they're focusing way more on music,

01:46:36   and I don't really consume music that way at home.

01:46:39   - I'll just say, I have a suspicion about the HomePod

01:46:42   that I've been like, I'm trying to push on everybody,

01:46:44   which is, I think the name makes sense

01:46:48   if you think that the direction that Apple is going is,

01:46:52   this device right now is not its incantation

01:46:55   of what it's going to be. - Oh, 100%.

01:46:56   They're showing all the music stuff right now,

01:46:58   because Siri isn't at the point where they want it to be.

01:47:01   And it seems like even by the time this ships in December,

01:47:05   the story could be really different.

01:47:07   But just where they are today,

01:47:09   they're focusing way more on the music aspect

01:47:11   because that's the best feature of it

01:47:13   because it's this incredible speaker.

01:47:15   Like as they show it right now, it's not for me,

01:47:18   but I'm sure it's actually a product for a lot of people.

01:47:21   And if you listen to music at home,

01:47:23   like just as a thing in your house, this looks fantastic.

01:47:27   and I know people that have heard it,

01:47:29   and I've read some stuff about people

01:47:30   that have actually heard the thing,

01:47:31   and for the money, it seems to be an incredibly good speaker

01:47:35   but like for me, we like the Amazon Echo at home

01:47:39   because of its integrations for services

01:47:41   and Apple isn't at that point with this product yet,

01:47:44   so I have no desire to change,

01:47:46   but I'm not begrudging it

01:47:47   because they're not standing on stage and saying like,

01:47:50   this is our answer to the Echo, right?

01:47:54   They showed the Echo on stage and they're like,

01:47:57   they wanted to make a product that was a combination

01:47:59   between a really great speaker like a Sonos

01:48:01   and something smart like an Echo.

01:48:03   And it seems to have that

01:48:04   'cause you can do some serious stuff with it,

01:48:05   but it's definitely not their answer to it, not yet.

01:48:08   I believe, like you, that it will be

01:48:09   because the clue's in the name.

01:48:11   - Yeah, talking about what are we expecting in the future,

01:48:15   I feel like the HomePod name is an arrow

01:48:19   pointing in the direction of future development.

01:48:23   - And it can do some stuff,

01:48:24   like it can act as the base of your HomeKit devices.

01:48:28   I can't remember the actual terminology Apple used,

01:48:30   but effectively like the home server for those devices.

01:48:33   It can do that where the Apple TV can currently do it.

01:48:35   So like it has some functionality there.

01:48:37   - Or an old iPad, which is my central server for it.

01:48:40   - Mine is by accident.

01:48:42   My kitchen iPad is by accident, my home HomeKit thing.

01:48:46   But like, so it's got that stuff,

01:48:50   but it's like, I'm not annoyed about this.

01:48:52   Like what I wanted was Apple to give me something

01:48:55   that I could replace my Echo with,

01:48:56   but they didn't, but it's fine.

01:48:57   'Cause I'll just keep using my Amazon Echo.

01:48:59   I'm cool with it.

01:49:00   But I know that if they wouldn't have given me

01:49:03   the iPad stuff, my overall feeling would have been pessimism

01:49:06   and I would have been really annoyed about the HomePod.

01:49:09   - Right, right, yes, exactly.

01:49:10   - Because that's what the last year has been,

01:49:11   that every announcement that Apple has had

01:49:14   has not been good enough

01:49:16   because they weren't necessarily what I was looking for

01:49:19   and they also hadn't given me anything else, right?

01:49:22   And it's just like, there is an alternate universe where this WWDC keynote has,

01:49:27   uh, you know, maybe no new iPads or like you're just missing a bunch of stuff,

01:49:33   but they still have that kaleidoscope watch face and I would be burning down the

01:49:38   world. Right?

01:49:39   Do you know what the other thing is? I've recorded two shows,

01:49:41   I've listened to two shows. Nobody talks about the opening video.

01:49:44   Oh right. Yes, of course.

01:49:46   Which was funny but in points kind of tone deaf.

01:49:50   That video is going to come to bite Apple

01:49:54   in the ass eventually, because someday

01:49:57   they're going to have a major iCloud outage,

01:50:00   and that is going to be the first thing

01:50:02   that people on the internet remix.

01:50:04   It's like, oh right, remember when you made the video

01:50:06   about a big disaster at your data center?

01:50:08   - Yeah, and then nobody can use their phones,

01:50:11   and we start the apocalypse,

01:50:12   but that's not being brought up where it would be usually,

01:50:15   but we just haven't got time to criticize.

01:50:18   Yeah, and it's also in the scope of things...

01:50:22   I mean, just to touch back upon it briefly,

01:50:26   I think maybe the worst decision that Apple made when we were in the Valley of Darkness

01:50:30   was releasing the book about how fantastic all of their products are.

01:50:34   I think that is maybe the most tone-deaf thing Apple has ever done in the history of the company.

01:50:38   It's like, "Guys, hold off that book

01:50:42   just until after this WWDC."

01:50:46   And it's like, that is an example of like,

01:50:50   it seems like you're showing off a bunch of stuff

01:50:52   while you've got nothing to back it up.

01:50:55   And something like with this WWDC, it's like,

01:50:59   okay, is that first video a little tone deaf?

01:51:01   Is that kaleidoscope watch face

01:51:03   maybe the worst thing I've ever seen?

01:51:05   But it doesn't, like you're willing to go totally past it

01:51:08   because it's like, look at that sexy iMac Pro.

01:51:11   Like, ah, here's a dumb video, whatever, like who cares?

01:51:13   "Oh my god, you put new processors in a MacBook Pro already?

01:51:16   It's only been six months!"

01:51:18   - And so it's this feeling like

01:51:20   when you're doing amazing things,

01:51:22   the people who like your products

01:51:24   are also willing to cut you a lot of runway.

01:51:26   And if you're just silent and doing nothing

01:51:29   and everything is unhappy,

01:51:31   then the story turns to like everything you do

01:51:33   is a PR disaster and a waste of resources.

01:51:36   So I feel like Apple has bought themselves

01:51:38   a lot of runway with this WWDC.

01:51:41   And it's also because of that signaling

01:51:42   I feel confident that they're going to do more stuff in the future.

01:51:46   And I'm viewing this as like, reset WWDC.

01:51:49   I'm very I'm just really I'm relieved.

01:51:52   Yeah, because I was dreading like I was just really on so many fronts,

01:51:57   dreading it, right?

01:51:58   It's like I'm not going to get the tools that I want to do my work

01:52:02   and I'm going to have to spend months more being just really frustrated.

01:52:06   Yeah. And I have to say.

01:52:09   Other thing I've really liked about that that keynote,

01:52:12   going back to what we were talking about,

01:52:13   being in San Jose with everybody,

01:52:15   everybody's in such a good mood.

01:52:17   - Yeah.

01:52:18   - It's like, you can tell every person who is here

01:52:23   is super happy.

01:52:25   Everybody has something,

01:52:26   everybody has excited things to talk about.

01:52:28   It's like the whole mood of the Apple community,

01:52:32   which is orbiting around that convention center,

01:52:34   is like, everybody is great.

01:52:36   Whereas I remember last year,

01:52:38   there was really that feeling of like,

01:52:40   "Ooh, stickers, a scraper, like what's happening?"

01:52:44   Where were the things?

01:52:46   It was a totally different mood when you talk to people

01:52:49   versus this year.

01:52:50   And this year, it has made being in San Jose

01:52:53   genuinely more enjoyable,

01:52:54   'cause everybody's excited about something

01:52:56   and wants to talk about something.

01:52:58   So well done, Apple.

01:53:00   - Yeah.

01:53:01   - Thanks to Myke for setting up this thing in person.

01:53:04   - Wasn't too bad, right?

01:53:05   - Which has been a little weird.

01:53:06   - But it's been fine.

01:53:08   It's been easier than I was expecting.

01:53:11   I think maybe actually this has made it a little bit more

01:53:15   like our lunches actually are.

01:53:17   I feel like this conversation has been a bit more casual

01:53:20   than other conversations.

01:53:22   But--

01:53:23   - So we start looking into some--

01:53:24   - Don't count on this in the future is what I'm saying.

01:53:27   Don't count on this in the future.

01:53:29   All right man, we gotta go.

01:53:30   There's more WWDC.

01:53:31   More things to do.

01:53:33   More things to do.

01:53:35   - Thanks for the horrible audio there.

01:53:37   - Yeah.

01:53:38   Let's go. Let's get out of here.