0:00:00I finally did it.
0:00:01What'd you do?
0:00:02We're in the same place.
0:00:03We're working on something together in the same place.
0:00:06It's really uncomfortable because Myke is looking directly into my eyes.
0:00:09Where else am I gonna look?
0:00:11Well, you do this when you record in person.
0:00:13For the listeners, I'm looking to the side of the room.
0:00:16I'm not looking directly at the mic.
0:00:17No, I don't. You didn't know this before we started,
0:00:19but I will be locking eyes of you for the next two hours.
0:00:23Oof.
0:00:24I think I'm not sure I would have agreed to this if I had...
0:00:26Are you really going to look...
0:00:27No, I'm not.
0:00:27Okay, thank God, because it's really weird.
0:00:29There will be times where I'm gonna, like right now I'm looking at you but I'm not gonna look at you for the whole time.
0:00:33Okay, I appreciate that.
0:00:35I'm looking down now.
0:00:36Thank you.
0:00:36We're at WWDC again.
0:00:38We are.
0:00:39But last year you made me record in a hotel room.
0:00:43And you were in your hotel room and we used Skype.
0:00:45Yes, that's true.
0:00:46But this year, you suggested, "Why don't we record in person?"
0:00:49I didn't suggest it.
0:00:51I feel like you did.
0:00:52I didn't, I didn't suggest it.
0:00:54You suggested it.
0:00:55Okay.
0:00:56And here's the thing, I agreed.
0:00:58because I have a lot of audio equipment in my room right now that I really didn't want to unbox.
0:01:02Ahh, that makes sense.
0:01:04Okay, put the burden on me.
0:01:06Last year I was all set to go and I was thinking,
0:01:08"Oh, I think shows are better if you record separately."
0:01:11But this year I just didn't really feel like unboxing all of these boxes,
0:01:16so here we are together in the same room.
0:01:18Have you thought about the potential issue if you really enjoy this?
0:01:25No.
0:01:25We'd have to record in person all the time?
0:01:28Well, that's fine.
0:01:29Okay.
0:01:30You can come out to me every time we record a show.
0:01:32To your office?
0:01:33No, I can have a rental space.
0:01:36The recording studio?
0:01:37Yes.
0:01:38You can go to the recording studio?
0:01:39Yeah, we can have a central London cortex recording studio.
0:01:42Okay.
0:01:43But I don't think this is going to happen, Myke.
0:01:44Okay, well we'll see.
0:01:45You never know.
0:01:46You might like it.
0:01:47I don't know.
0:01:48I'm feeling very uncomfortable right now.
0:01:49Would you like to turn around?
0:01:50I am very surprised that we're looking at each other face to face.
0:01:55I did consider, I did consider, why are you shaking your head?
0:01:59It would have been so ridiculous.
0:02:00I did consider us facing in opposite directions in the same room, but I
0:02:04thought, let me try not to be a burden upon other people.
0:02:07Well, the whole time I will be turning around to look at you.
0:02:10Think what's he up to over there?
0:02:12That's what you were thinking.
0:02:13Well, I just like, I'd say something, you know, I turn around and be like,
0:02:16what do you think?
0:02:17But that wouldn't make any sense.
0:02:19It wouldn't make any sense.
0:02:20No, no.
0:02:22So I mentioned it, but we're in San Jose for WWDC.
0:02:25So we recorded last year at WWDC in San Francisco.
0:02:29So this is Apple's developer conference.
0:02:31And we just come here to hang out, right?
0:02:33We have like a bunch of friends who attend the conference
0:02:35and there's a lot of periphery events
0:02:36and we were doing some stuff at Relay FM.
0:02:39And what do you think of San Jose?
0:02:41- Well, I'm really glad because last year
0:02:44I wasn't 100% sure if I was going to go to WWDC
0:02:48And I ended up just sort of going to see the thing.
0:02:52And now I am doubly glad that I went last year,
0:02:55because I have a frame of reference to compare
0:02:58the last San Francisco WWDC to the now San Jose WWDC
0:03:03that everybody's talking about,
0:03:06ooh, what are all the differences?
0:03:08And I would have felt very left out of 40%
0:03:11of the conversations about how San Jose
0:03:13is different from San Francisco.
0:03:14So I'm super glad that I went to the one last year,
0:03:17just for the comparison for this year.
0:03:20I mean, in many ways I have no business being here.
0:03:24I'm not here as a developer,
0:03:27so I have a very different perspective on it,
0:03:29but my feeling from what I've seen is it seems like
0:03:33San Jose is a total win for the conference
0:03:35on almost every single metric,
0:03:39and then there's one metric that everybody agrees
0:03:41it's not a win on, and that's not a metric I care about.
0:03:43So for me, it's ticking 10 out of 10 boxes
0:03:46for better location than San Francisco.
0:03:49- Yeah, the metric that I'm assuming you don't care about
0:03:51is that bars don't open as late.
0:03:53- Yeah, bars close early, restaurants close early,
0:03:56and on all the conversations,
0:03:57everybody's complaining about it,
0:03:59and I'm sitting there secretly thinking, yes.
0:04:01- It's like, I get an excuse to go to bed.
0:04:03- Yeah, or like it pushes us into more reasonable,
0:04:06more quiet locations.
0:04:08- That's true.
0:04:08- Oh no, we can't be at a loud bar until one in the morning?
0:04:12Oh, what a shame.
0:04:13I was like, actually, tick in the plus column.
0:04:16So I think it's great.
0:04:18- Yeah, I think I've spent more time in the hotel bar
0:04:20than I would usually.
0:04:21And I do actually agree with you.
0:04:23Like last night, there was some kind of rowdy party
0:04:26going on in the hotel bar.
0:04:28So we came back from like a meal,
0:04:30and we come into the hotel,
0:04:31and there were just these two groups of tables,
0:04:33about eight people on them,
0:04:34and they were just shouting at each other.
0:04:36Like just at the top of their voices,
0:04:39nothing was happening,
0:04:40but these people were just shouting,
0:04:41and we're like, oh, I want anything to do with this.
0:04:43So we all just bundled into my hotel room
0:04:45and just sat around chatting
0:04:47and there was like eight of us for a while
0:04:48we're just hanging out.
0:04:49And that was way nicer 'cause that's what I like
0:04:52and one of the things about a lot of these conferences
0:04:54is really what you wanna do is just hang out with the people
0:04:59and talk to your friends
0:05:00'cause not only are we catching up
0:05:01there's also just a lot to talk about this week
0:05:03and everybody's sharing things that they found out
0:05:06and pieces of information and experiences.
0:05:08So people just wanna do that
0:05:09But those places are usually where alcohol is served
0:05:13and where bars are and stuff like that.
0:05:15So it gets a bit tricky.
0:05:16Like it reminds me of whenever we set up meetups.
0:05:18So we did a meetup here and I've done a few in London now.
0:05:22I always have to spend extra time explaining to the bar
0:05:25or the venue that we're in that I want the lights on
0:05:29and no music.
0:05:30And they can't understand why what they think
0:05:34is gonna be a party would want that.
0:05:36And I'm like, people are just gonna be talking to each other.
0:05:38Like music makes it worse.
0:05:40- It's not a party.
0:05:41- We don't want music, please no music.
0:05:44But I agree, like this is a vastly superior location
0:05:48than downtown San Francisco for an event like this.
0:05:52Basically for WWDC, the majority of attendees
0:05:56and the majority of people that are coming
0:05:59to attend periphery events, like me and you,
0:06:01we don't leave like a four or five block radius
0:06:05of the hotel or the convention center.
0:06:08And that area of San Francisco, as we discussed last time,
0:06:12it's not a nice part of San Francisco.
0:06:14- No.
0:06:15- And I mean, I don't know how this five block radius
0:06:19of downtown San Jose compares to the rest of San Jose,
0:06:22but it is vastly superior to that of San Francisco.
0:06:25There's, again, there are food options, there aren't as many.
0:06:30There are bar options, there aren't as many.
0:06:32None of them are open as late.
0:06:34But it works out just fine.
0:06:37Like, I know why people have been looking for those things,
0:06:40but like you, I'm really good with what we've had.
0:06:43And there's a nice little coffee place near our hotel,
0:06:46and it's been really nice,
0:06:48and I feel like I can walk around the streets
0:06:50and not worry about things like I do
0:06:52when I'm in San Francisco.
0:06:54So I mean, I think that everything has been a big win.
0:06:57- Oh yeah, yeah.
0:06:58And when you go to these places,
0:07:00it is a thing that I'm very aware you're judging a city
0:07:03on a three block radius.
0:07:06- Yep. - Right.
0:07:06San Jose, I know the whole city.
0:07:09I know three streets, right?
0:07:11It's like that is the entire perspective,
0:07:13but the reality of it is that is the conference world.
0:07:17So those streets matter a lot.
0:07:19And where we were in San Francisco
0:07:22and where the conference was,
0:07:24those streets were an apocalypse.
0:07:27They were terrible.
0:07:28I'm sure there are plenty of lovely areas of San Francisco.
0:07:30- I've been to them.
0:07:31- But the place that the conference was,
0:07:34it made San Francisco seem like a dystopian hellscape.
0:07:37- Yeah, it's like there is a bunch of lovely places
0:07:40in San Francisco, but you're either gonna be staying
0:07:44like a 20 minute journey away from where everybody is
0:07:47or like everyone's gonna have to pile into taxis
0:07:50and go out for any dinner, like it doesn't work.
0:07:53It's just where the venues are and the area
0:07:57around the convention centers here and there
0:08:00are just populated differently.
0:08:01- Yeah, and the tightness of the radius adds
0:08:03to the experience because it dramatically increases the probability of running into
0:08:08people, which is nice, which I also think is an additional benefit of San Jose is it
0:08:14really does feel like WWDC has descended upon this area, which was population-wise much
0:08:23smaller than the same block radius in San Francisco. And I have had the experience numerous
0:08:28times of walking between the various hotels because I'm on my way to go see a thing or
0:08:34go meet a person and while doing that bumping into somebody else and being able to say hi
0:08:38quickly and that's really nice. Like that's such a nice experience that it almost makes
0:08:44it like a like a faux college campus for a brief period of time which is great. Like
0:08:50that's what you want for this kind of experiences. Oh I have chance random encounters with people
0:08:56that I know or that I've just met. And it's very nice.
0:08:59WWDC has completely taken over. Like San Francisco takes the conference in its stride.
0:09:05It's like it doesn't make a difference because there's always a conference or there's always
0:09:09something.
0:09:10Yeah, I was really aware of that feeling in San Francisco of walking out of the hotel
0:09:14and standing on the street and feeling like, "Oh, I have been absorbed into the metropolis
0:09:19of San Francisco." And the probability of bumping into someone was very low. I think
0:09:24I think the number of times I bumped into someone on the street from the conference in San Francisco was maybe once or twice at most in the whole time that I was there.
0:09:33Because I think it changes the mindset. Like, whilst all those people were also there, you don't pay attention to people as they're walking around because they're just Joe Schmo going to see Alcatraz, right?
0:09:46The other thing that I think helps with that feeling is,
0:09:49I don't know if I just tuned into it less in San Francisco, but it feels like the developers have these really identifiable jackets.
0:09:56Okay, so there are jackets every year, but the jackets this year are more...
0:10:01They stand out a lot more.
0:10:03Yeah, they really do. They have these really... They're very cool looking black jean kind of jackets.
0:10:08They're black Levi's jackets. They're Levi's denim jackets, which Apple kind of branded with WWDC17 on them.
0:10:15Like previously they were these kind of like hoodie type things, big numbers on the back.
0:10:19So they were actually in theory more noticeable because it was people walking around with
0:10:22huge numbers on their back, but they were so nondescript that you kind of would blank
0:10:27them out.
0:10:28Yeah, I can't even remember what they look like, but I feel like these jackets are super
0:10:31distinguishable and then a plus that I really like is I've heard from the people who have
0:10:37been inside the conference that they're able to do some kind of scavenger hunt for all
0:10:41of these pins that they're getting on the jackets.
0:10:44And I find my brain really tunes into these little pins like a little Swift pin or a smiley
0:10:49pin.
0:10:50It seems like there's some kind of scavenger hunt going on.
0:10:52And what I think this is great for, just an idea for a conference, I think that it is
0:10:56a genius conversation starter because you have the thing where you can identify, "Ah,
0:11:02here's the jacket, the person's at the same thing."
0:11:05And it gives you an in with almost everyone to be able to say, "Oh, what did you get
0:11:09that pin for?"
0:11:10They're also encouraging, like it does encourage swapping and trading.
0:11:15WWDC this year, again, so just from talking to people who have been inside and/or standing
0:11:20at the outside of the convention center past the barriers and longingly looking at the
0:11:25convention center, that's been my experience of it so far.
0:11:28Yeah, but before we started recording I was telling Myke that the saddest I have been
0:11:32so far was on keynote morning I thought, I'd just arrived in the city and I thought, "Oh,
0:11:37I'm going to go look and see what the conference center looks like.
0:11:39And I went out there to take a look and I just felt like the saddest
0:11:45excluded person on the outside because I have no badge. And then to,
0:11:48to top it off, I'm looking at, Ooh,
0:11:50the conference center looks amazing and there's this huge exciting line.
0:11:53And as I'm standing there looking on the line,
0:11:56like my friends start waving to me from the cool insider part.
0:11:59And I was just like, it might,
0:12:00the skies might as well have opened up and rained down upon just me and that
0:12:04moment.
0:12:05Just this one column of rain going right down.
0:12:08That is 100% how I felt in that moment.
0:12:10I was like, oh, I'm so sad.
0:12:14But so yes, that is our experience
0:12:16from outside the conference.
0:12:18But it's--
0:12:19- It's more festival-y.
0:12:20- Yeah, that is exactly it.
0:12:21It feels like there is this festival
0:12:24throughout the whole thing.
0:12:25People are engaged in all of these different activities.
0:12:27All of the peripheral conferences are literally next door
0:12:32or just across the street.
0:12:33so you can pop between different things.
0:12:35It's been really great, it's really fun.
0:12:38I think even as someone who's not directly participating in it,
0:12:41the collectible pins are a genius idea
0:12:45that other conferences should totally pick up on
0:12:48as a way to encourage communication
0:12:51and recognizability around conference attendees.
0:12:54- So I've been to a conference that did this,
0:12:56and I actually think this is the conference
0:12:58that inspired Apple to do this.
0:13:00So the last XOXO in Portland,
0:13:03when you checked in, they gave you three pin badges,
0:13:06but there were like 12.
0:13:08And if you found one you wanted,
0:13:11they were encouraging pin exchange
0:13:12and they were like on the slack
0:13:14and they have like an XOXO slack for attendees.
0:13:16They have like a whole room for like pin swapping.
0:13:20And the pins are so reminiscent
0:13:21because there's enamel pins and all these colors.
0:13:24I think that they might have like
0:13:25crypt the idea from there, but it's great.
0:13:27It's a great one.
0:13:28- Yeah, whoever came up with, let's say XOXO came up with it.
0:13:30It's a great idea.
0:13:31- It doesn't matter.
0:13:32It's fantastic. - It doesn't matter.
0:13:33like you'll see someone and be like,
0:13:34oh hey, I love your pen, I love that one,
0:13:36and you'll swap and you'll chat,
0:13:37it's like it's a nice thing,
0:13:38and as you say, basically there are certain events,
0:13:42certain talks or sessions, as Apple calls them,
0:13:45that if you went to them, you were given a badge.
0:13:48So like, and it was also, I think it's a way for them
0:13:51to encourage attendance, like there was a special badge
0:13:55for the accessibility sessions.
0:13:57- Oh, okay, that is total genius, yeah.
0:13:59- It was either the session or the labs,
0:14:01In the labs you go and talk to the engineers
0:14:04so they can give you advice on it.
0:14:05So if you went and participated in that,
0:14:08so to help people who have different disabilities
0:14:11use your applications, they will give you a pin.
0:14:14- That is so smart.
0:14:16I've been aware of talking to some,
0:14:18okay, so here's the thing that I would just
0:14:20never normally do.
0:14:22Because everybody is so recognizable
0:14:24and because of the pins, I have on occasion
0:14:27struck up conversations just very briefly in the elevator,
0:14:30which is the thing I would never do,
0:14:33but it's like it's begging you to do it,
0:14:35and some of the pins are really interesting.
0:14:37And so I've just said, oh, what was that one,
0:14:39where'd you get it from?
0:14:40And I've been aware that some of them
0:14:42seem rarer than others, but I didn't realize
0:14:45tying it to session attendance is another great reason
0:14:50to do that, to encourage people.
0:14:52I guess we want as many people to just come
0:14:54to the accessibility session so that they're aware
0:14:57of what exists.
0:14:58That is really great, it's really great.
0:15:00- And if you think like a conference like this,
0:15:02there's so much standing in lines,
0:15:04you know, like you're lining up for everything.
0:15:06Having an ability to be able to turn around
0:15:08and talk to someone is great,
0:15:09'cause so many people come on their own,
0:15:11or like they know people that are here, but aren't inside.
0:15:15- Right. - Right?
0:15:16Like I have, I know a bunch of people who like,
0:15:19I know who they are, like we're friends,
0:15:22but they don't know anybody inside.
0:15:24- Right. - Or like I've spoken
0:15:25to a bunch of people in the same way, right?
0:15:27like none of their coworkers got a ticket, just them.
0:15:29So they're going in and like it seems like,
0:15:32well I mean it seems like it's nice in there,
0:15:33I wouldn't know because we don't get to go in.
0:15:37But it looks like it enables people to talk to each other
0:15:40in a fun way and I think that's really good.
0:15:42- Yeah it is. - I do think
0:15:43that's really good.
0:15:44But Monday you mentioned the keynote.
0:15:47So it was quite a day.
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0:17:36We watched the keynote together, which you got to see me scream in a bunch I think, was
0:17:41something that you experienced.
0:17:43Yeah, there was excitement all around on all sides.
0:17:46It was really fun.
0:17:49I think again to compare the experience last year versus this year.
0:17:52I really, I really like going to WWDC last year.
0:17:56I felt like we had a very,
0:17:59very great time watching the keynote last year at the Twitter headquarters.
0:18:04It was awesome to be invited to that and it was super fun.
0:18:07That was the first time I had ever had the experience of watching a keynote,
0:18:12not by myself.
0:18:14I hate the other ones watching the other ones now because when,
0:18:19The WWDC I've for the last like four years watched the keynote of other people.
0:18:23So when like the iPhone event comes around and I'm just sitting in my living room with Tim Cook on the TV, it's so boring.
0:18:30Like the WWDC stuff I always watch on my own.
0:18:33But the iPhone keynote event, my wife is always very interested in that.
0:18:38And so we at least watch it together.
0:18:41And she's very excited.
0:18:43So I always feel like, oh, we watch the iPhone event together.
0:18:46I was like, "Oh, poor glass of wine. We'll sit back and now impress us, Apple.
0:18:51Show us your magic."
0:18:55So I have a very nice association with that one.
0:18:57But the WWDC one for the past many years has always been like, "Oh, I'm just a sad nerd on my own watching it."
0:18:59Please tell me about APIs.
0:19:05Yes.
0:19:07The API slide went by so quickly.
0:19:08I'll have to wait for the technical keynote.
0:19:10Yay!
0:19:13Yay!
0:19:13It was really interesting and a very interesting experience to watch it last year at Twitter in a room full of people.
0:19:14year at Twitter in a room full of, I don't know, must have been 50 people.
0:19:18There was a lot of people. There was a lot of people there. They had great food. Oh my god.
0:19:22Yes, I swear, I swear, Twitter if you're listening, I still think about your
0:19:26breakfast burritos. Oh god, it was so good. Every once in a while I'll just remember like, that breakfast burrito
0:19:31at Twitter is so good. If I remember you were on a real strict carb diet at that point,
0:19:35you were just like, it's going out of the window today. Yeah, that was,
0:19:39it was too good, it was too good to pass on. But so again, it's great this year
0:19:43to have a mental comparison because this year was a very different experience because there
0:19:47were, I don't know, eight of us?
0:19:48There was eight of us.
0:19:50Eight of us in a hotel room watching it and obviously were people who have come to WDC
0:19:55were all really interested, really invested in what's happening and that felt like another
0:20:00whole very great way to watch the keynote with a smaller group of friends and also because
0:20:07you know everybody in that room, you know what particular people care about or are interested
0:20:11So even in some of the sections where I'm less interested,
0:20:14it was still fun to see the reactions of my friends
0:20:16who I know like, oh, for them, the Mac section,
0:20:19like they're really interested in what's happening here.
0:20:22And like I didn't come into this with big hopes for that.
0:20:25So it was like, I really enjoyed
0:20:26having those different perspectives live in the room.
0:20:29So it was really fun, it was really fun.
0:20:32- Yeah, and also in those scenarios
0:20:34when it's just a group of friends,
0:20:35like I'm more willing to show my true emotions, right?
0:20:38Right, then if like I'm in an office of some big company.
0:20:42Right, there was no hooping and hollering at the Twitter headquarters because you have to pretend like you're super cool in front of Twitter.
0:20:48You just sit back and you're like, "Oh yeah, hmm, stickers."
0:20:50The thing is though, this was a much more hooping and hollering year, I think, than last year.
0:20:55I think one of the funny things about last year's WWDC, I mean we did our big event, that big live event that we did.
0:21:03and we recorded a show and I remember the whole time
0:21:06I'm like okay, whatever they talk about
0:21:07is how I'm gonna plan out the content.
0:21:10And there wasn't really a lot.
0:21:13The plan initially was for me and you
0:21:15to talk about whatever happened to the iPad
0:21:17and nothing happened.
0:21:20So it was kind of an underwhelming WWDC last year.
0:21:25There was some cool stuff, like I still use and like stickers
0:21:28I think it was a good addition
0:21:29but that was like the biggest thing.
0:21:31- That was their headlining feature.
0:21:32for like consumers was just these changes to iMessage.
0:21:35But this year is like everything, everything,
0:21:39everyone got their thing this year.
0:21:41- Yeah.
0:21:42- Like there is nothing, going into WWDC,
0:21:44there is nothing that I wanted
0:21:46that they didn't address in some way.
0:21:48- Yeah, here's my feeling of what they managed
0:21:51to pull off at this WWDC.
0:21:54This is like everybody in the world went into this hall
0:21:57to watch, to see.
0:21:59Tim Cook came on stage and said,
0:22:01"Look under your chair, everyone.
0:22:02and there's a box for you,
0:22:03and you could reach under your chair
0:22:05and you could open the box,
0:22:06and there was something just for you in the box
0:22:09for everyone in that theater.
0:22:11So that's what they managed to pull off.
0:22:13There was nobody who didn't get something
0:22:17that felt like this is the thing you're waiting for,
0:22:20or the thing that you want to hear about.
0:22:22So very, very impressive keynote.
0:22:25- Like I had some things that were on my total wishlist,
0:22:30like Apple embracing VR.
0:22:32- Oh man, yeah.
0:22:35- I had no expectations, honestly, for that to ever happen.
0:22:38I thought that they'd missed a boat on it.
0:22:40And you know, I've been talking to some people
0:22:42who know their stuff, and people have been tweeting at me
0:22:45to kind of give me information about like
0:22:47some of the graphic stuff that they're using.
0:22:50And again, as you would expect,
0:22:51it's nowhere near top of the line.
0:22:54But for me, it's the,
0:22:55it's just that Apple are understanding
0:22:59that VR is something that the Mac should be able to do.
0:23:02And they're starting to make machines
0:23:04that are powerful enough to cope with it.
0:23:07That's what I want.
0:23:08I mean, I've been recently,
0:23:10like we were talking about the Corsair recently,
0:23:13and I have been just like thinking,
0:23:15what have I gotta do?
0:23:16But now I just think if I just wait a little bit longer,
0:23:19I don't think the iMac Pro is for me.
0:23:24But like I'm just kinda keeping my eye on things
0:23:26that there are these external GPUs
0:23:28that they're working with and maybe this Mac Pro in 2018,
0:23:32like maybe one combination or not of these machines
0:23:37could be all I need for decent gaming and VR on my Mac.
0:23:41- Yeah, yeah.
0:23:42The VR thing, I also agree,
0:23:44felt totally out of left field.
0:23:46- Yep.
0:23:47- In an already very packed keynote
0:23:51and a thing that they gave a bunch of time to.
0:23:53And I love that they did the VR demo on the regular iMacs.
0:23:57- Yeah, that was good.
0:23:59- They weren't showing off like,
0:24:01"Oh, we have a pre-production iMac Pro on stage
0:24:03"and we're gonna give you a VR demo
0:24:05"with our $5,000 machine."
0:24:07As I know, our next generation of regular iMacs can do VR.
0:24:12And I found that totally surprising
0:24:15and really very welcome as I was watching it happen.
0:24:19I feel like a feeling of just relief,
0:24:22just like we have had the conversation about VR
0:24:24and you have always very much been pushing this feeling
0:24:26like I think they're missing the boat on this, that they're not placing a bet on the table.
0:24:31And I too didn't expect they'd even address it, but to see it done in such a way to be
0:24:36given time. And I also thought it'd be very interestingly done in a way that's a demo
0:24:41about working in VR as opposed to gaming in VR.
0:24:45They are talking about making stuff as opposed to playing games, but the fact that they have
0:24:53support for the two of the largest game engines and Steam. It's like, their games are part
0:24:57of this, but like Apple is, they're focusing more on the creation of 3D content right now
0:25:03because there are no games that can run. So I think that's why they're like "Oh, make
0:25:08your games" is kind of what they're saying, because that's the message. Because you can't
0:25:13take a current game and just start playing it. So I think they're pitching it right,
0:25:17but I think people were getting a little bit too hung up
0:25:22on the verbiage that Apple's using.
0:25:25VR is gaming, and if they're not doing that,
0:25:27then they're crazy, and they are doing that, it's clear.
0:25:30And they put a Steam slider, like it's gaming,
0:25:33but there's just no games.
0:25:34- Even if in many ways it was a demo out of necessity,
0:25:38I still think it was a very Appley demo
0:25:41to focus on creation.
0:25:43That always feels like one of the bullet points
0:25:47that they want to hit with their products
0:25:49and their services is,
0:25:50look at how we can enable you to create things.
0:25:53And so, if, in a year or two,
0:25:57they may be able to demo an amazing VR game on the Mac,
0:26:01but I can imagine them continuing that theme
0:26:03of liking to show off what you can make in VR,
0:26:07as opposed to just doing a graphics demo.
0:26:10- They really don't, I mean, they are as a company,
0:26:12they have games, there's games on their platforms,
0:26:14they are not a games company,
0:26:15like this is a thing about Apple.
0:26:17I think it's really funny when they say on stage
0:26:18something like, "Oh, we're the biggest gaming company
0:26:21in the world because of the iPhone."
0:26:22And the iPad's like, "Yeah."
0:26:25- By default.
0:26:26- Yeah, it's exactly, by default you are,
0:26:29but you're not really.
0:26:31- No.
0:26:32- You let these games exist on your platform,
0:26:34but you're not building controllers or all,
0:26:37like you're not a gaming company
0:26:38in the way Nintendo is a gaming company.
0:26:40- Yeah, I mean, this is like even like Apple's
0:26:42backend systems are just not built
0:26:44for the way that game developers work.
0:26:45like it's just not, but it's just because they have
0:26:48the largest software distribution platform in the world,
0:26:51so people just keep putting games out on the system anyway,
0:26:55'cause it's like a billion devices or something.
0:26:57- Yeah, something crazy.
0:26:58- So it's similar to Android,
0:27:00but there are many differences,
0:27:03and I think that it's like they talk about games,
0:27:06and they have games, but they're no gaming company.
0:27:09- Yeah, they're not in their sole gaming company.
0:27:12- No, it's like, oh, I guess we just sell games now too.
0:27:15That's kind of how they kind of stumbled into it.
0:27:17But I'm really happy.
0:27:18More powerful Macs is a good thing, right?
0:27:21And the ability to do VR gaming is a good thing.
0:27:24- Yeah, it's a really good thing.
0:27:26- But of course the biggest stuff for me and you was iPad.
0:27:30That's what we were looking for.
0:27:32I mean it was the make or break here for the iPad.
0:27:35Because we got iOS 9, we got all the stuff that meant
0:27:37that me and you could be working on our iPad all day
0:27:40because of iOS 9.
0:27:42Nothing happened in 10.
0:27:43And it was like, well, okay, show us what you got. And they did.
0:27:47They show us what they have. And there are,
0:27:52I think maybe two like hugely fundamental
0:27:57changes to iOS,
0:27:59which is an exposed file system and management of that.
0:28:04And the way that they have adapted multitasking,
0:28:07they basically burned multitasking down and rebuilt it.
0:28:11and it all focuses around a doc now.
0:28:14Oh, and drag and drop as well,
0:28:16being the addition to multitasking.
0:28:18- Right, in my head I kind of roll that up
0:28:20with multitasking, even though it's an incredibly
0:28:23different thing.
0:28:25The two of them on stage look like they go so well together
0:28:30that I find like my brain is not mentally separating them
0:28:33out as two distinct things, even though obviously they are.
0:28:35- Exactly, and the way I've been hearing people
0:28:37talk about these advancements and I agree with it completely is that there
0:28:43was a lot of people saying oh they they taught the iPad to be a Mac they taught
0:28:49that iPad to be a real computer but I think that what Apple has actually done
0:28:54is taken these fundamental tenants of what it means to be a personal computer
0:29:00boiled them down to what they are at their core and then built them for iOS.
0:29:07So the ability to drag and drop them easily with our own files and content in
0:29:11which apps are aware of each other, the ability to be able to have multiple
0:29:15things on screen at one time and the ability to be able to access your files
0:29:18wherever you want them. Because all of these things especially drag and drop
0:29:22they make more sense to me here than they do on my Mac.
0:29:27Well, the iPad always has the advantage that you are directly manipulating the thing with
0:29:34either your hand or with the pencil.
0:29:36And I think from a UI designer perspective, that is quite a challenge to think of how
0:29:45do you want to make something that works like that.
0:29:49But it also has the big advantage that once you see someone do it and once you yourself
0:29:53do it one or two times, it's like your brain can lean on its muscle memory of the real
0:29:59world.
0:30:01And so with the drag and drop, it's like, "Oh yes, of course, I touch this thing and
0:30:05I know that in this digital universe when I touch something else, it will fly to my
0:30:09other finger and then I can move it around."
0:30:11And you only have to do that a couple of times before your brain gets the metaphor.
0:30:20There isn't that level of indirection of "Oh, I'm copying these files from this thing and
0:30:28I don't see them move, I just see a progress bar."
0:30:33I think a lot of people have a hard time with that and it's why many people struggle with
0:30:39file management on a Mac and it's why lots of people do like an iPad because they don't
0:30:43have to use that stuff.
0:30:45But for the more pro power iPad users, it's very great to be able to do the drag and drop
0:30:52stuff and also have that feeling of "oh, it's so easy because I'm just tap tap tap, I can
0:30:57see what's happening" and it just slots into your brain in an easy way.
0:31:03And just the things that I'm learning about the drag and drop and the way that it works
0:31:06is so very clever.
0:31:10enabling and keeping all this security in place but it's apparently it's it's
0:31:15work for developers but not as much as it may seem to be initially and it's
0:31:19there's been some demos of some really interesting stuff about the way that
0:31:23other applications can extract relevant data so for example there's a demo that
0:31:28Apple has been doing as part of their presentations where they have the photos
0:31:33app and the Maps app side by side and you take a photo and drop it onto the
0:31:38Maps app and it takes you to the location the photo was taken. Oh nice. So
0:31:43there is all of this stuff where like you as an app developer can say what types
0:31:47of data you're looking for and also what your files contain and when you drag one
0:31:53over the other that application is looking for the relevant information
0:31:58that it can extract from any file and then deals of it. It's very very clever
0:32:03stuff and it really does feel like just a massive win. Like all of the really
0:32:12big things that we needed on the iPad have been addressed. Yeah I would agree
0:32:18with that and it's very interesting. Another reason why I like
0:32:22being physically here at WWDC is related to this because when you're sitting in a
0:32:28keynote and particularly this keynote which has the magic box for everybody
0:32:32They're running through everything on stage and I swear I've never seen them go through more stuff faster
0:32:38You know those those word slides that they have at the end were hilarious sometimes where they were they they run through the main things
0:32:44And they say oh we've done a bunch of other stuff for iOS and they put a word cloud up on the screen and then they
0:32:48Move on sometimes those word clouds were up for like two seconds
0:32:51It's like we got to keep moving on and they were up for two seconds with
0:32:54Many many words and we were all on Twitter's going did anybody catch that what was on there?
0:33:00I need to know what was, I couldn't even see it for two seconds.
0:33:02Um, there was so much stuff.
0:33:05And when, when you're seeing them demo things like drag and drop on screen and
0:33:12demoing the new versions of app switching and all of this stuff, I'm sitting here
0:33:17watching it and I think I can see what they're doing in this looks amazing, but
0:33:22there is always that part, which is, but I don't really get it until I can play
0:33:28around with it because you know they're showing you things under certain circumstances and
0:33:33like they've set up demos to do particular things and you don't have an ability to understand
0:33:40how does this really work and what are the edge cases.
0:33:43And so being a WWDC is fantastic because as soon as that keynote is over, someone is going
0:33:51to be crazy enough to load the beta of the developer build right on their iPad immediately
0:33:57And this year it was David Sparks, who runs two podcasts, if I'm right, on this network.
0:34:04He does.
0:34:05Which you should go listen to.
0:34:06Especially if you're listening to Cortex, you should in particular listen to Free Agents
0:34:10that he does with Jason Snell.
0:34:12If you like this show, you will almost certainly like that show.
0:34:15I think so.
0:34:16I think so.
0:34:17There's going to be a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram.
0:34:21Yeah, so David Sparks had that, the build on his iPad super fast.
0:34:27Basically immediately.
0:34:28Yeah, he must have been one of the very first people in the whole of the conference to get it loaded.
0:34:33And being here at WWDC then means, very shortly after the keynote has happened, he was nice enough to let me play around with his iPad, mess up lots of things.
0:34:50and rearranging all of his icons, dragging and dropping emails and like,
0:34:55"Woo, how does this work? Where does this go? What happens if I do that?" Like,
0:34:58"Oh God, I would never let someone touch my..." He was incredibly generous.
0:35:02So thanks again, David. But we got to play around with it.
0:35:05And that's the moment where as a person trying to understand what does this mean
0:35:11for how my workflows are going to happen?
0:35:14What does this mean for the future of the way I do work on a device that's
0:35:16deeply important to me. That's where the understanding comes in.
0:35:20And in the first 20 minutes of playing with it,
0:35:23I think we both had the same experience of, okay,
0:35:26now that we have our hands on it,
0:35:27you start out with a bunch of concerns because what you're realizing is, Oh,
0:35:31the way I do everything is broken and the way I'm used to managing a bunch of
0:35:36windows is not going to work. And so you start out by thinking, Oh God, I like,
0:35:40I don't know how this is going to, I'm not sure if this is a good thing,
0:35:44But I was very happy that over the course of those 20 minutes playing around,
0:35:47I felt like, oh, okay, I understand we're not now focused on individual apps.
0:35:53We're focused on the equivalent of spaces on the Mac and switching between these
0:35:57and playing with slide over.
0:35:58And very quickly I could see how is this going to change the way I work.
0:36:05And from that it's like, hey, something seemed a little clunky,
0:36:09but it's partly me just getting used to it. And I was overall very,
0:36:13very happy at the end of it feeling like this is great.
0:36:16Like this new dock is incredibly strange.
0:36:18I don't know what's going to happen there.
0:36:20There's a bunch of stuff to figure out,
0:36:21but I was really, really happy to have an opportunity
0:36:24to play around with it and get a bit of muscle memory feel
0:36:28for how this is going to work.
0:36:30- And the Apple Watch originally came out.
0:36:32It was weird.
0:36:34So from a software perspective,
0:36:35there was just a lot of things about it that were really weird.
0:36:38And then WatchOS 2 improved a little bit,
0:36:41And then watchOS 3 felt like they had redesigned watchOS
0:36:45based on the fact that it actually used the watch.
0:36:47- Right.
0:36:48- And I feel like that this version of iOS on the iPad
0:36:52has been made by people who have been using iOS on the iPad
0:36:57seriously over the last two years.
0:36:59- That is a great comparison.
0:37:00That's a great comparison.
0:37:01- Because we have to start again in some ways,
0:37:05but I feel like the scale is way better.
0:37:09Like it will scale better over time
0:37:12because you have more flexibility about the way
0:37:15that you arrange your workspace.
0:37:17Where if we would have just continued
0:37:19with the previous split view at Pica,
0:37:22even with just additional tools to manage that,
0:37:26I think the idea of this pulling in and pulling down
0:37:29would have eventually gotten to be feel really old.
0:37:32When now we're like you can set up these pairs
0:37:34of applications and they live together.
0:37:36You can swipe up from the dock and bring things over.
0:37:38It's basically like, oh, we have used the Mac
0:37:42for such a long time, and we've never needed
0:37:46to really change the way that you open
0:37:47and play with applications,
0:37:49and this is very similar to that.
0:37:51Again, I think that there are benefits,
0:37:54there are things that are good,
0:37:55there are things that are not as good,
0:37:56but overall I feel like it's really focused
0:38:00on trying to make this a more scalable
0:38:05and usable interface over time,
0:38:07without needing to burn it back down again
0:38:09in two years and restart.
0:38:11Tim Cook started off the whole presentation about the iPad
0:38:14as this is the biggest iPad release ever,
0:38:17which I hated that to begin.
0:38:19I was like, you're setting expectations.
0:38:21- Never do that. - Way too high.
0:38:23Like someone should have told you to do that at the end.
0:38:26But it does feel that way though.
0:38:28- It's like a comic coming on stage.
0:38:30This is gonna be the funniest show you've ever seen.
0:38:32- I have some real great jokes for you folks.
0:38:34- Well, now it isn't.
0:38:35to rip your lovely butts off, here we go.
0:38:37But it is though, I mean he was right, it is.
0:38:42And there are like a million little things,
0:38:45and there are a million little things
0:38:47that me and you don't even know about yet.
0:38:49But like even there are things like,
0:38:50you can record the screen now natively on iOS.
0:38:54Which has been just like an eternal frustration for so long.
0:38:57But you can do it now.
0:38:59- There are, that simple ability to record the screen,
0:39:03I can think of so many times over the past few years where I have wanted to do
0:39:07something animation wise on the road and I've thought, Oh, if I could just,
0:39:12I could just record the screen and Oh, right.
0:39:14Yeah. Cause you could just record the screen and move stuff around.
0:39:17There are ways that I could have done not the greatest animation,
0:39:22but I could have done fine mobile animation with some screen recording.
0:39:26But it's, but the problem has always been like, Oh,
0:39:29you need a second device to record. And it's like, okay,
0:39:32was a deal breaker because the whole reason I want to record the screen is I don't have
0:39:35my Mac with me and now I might as well just use the Mac if it's here.
0:39:39That's going to be really helpful to me. So there was a thing I wanted to do for a vlog
0:39:43where it was the big travel vlog that I did recently.
0:39:46Mega vlog. Mega vlog. The travel mega vlog. And I wanted
0:39:49to... You should trademark that.
0:39:50I'm gonna. I'm gonna do my best. There's something that I wanted to do to show like, you know
0:39:58you have those old like those maps and you feel like a plane moving from place to place.
0:40:01I know the exact thing that you're trying to do because I've tried to do this a couple
0:40:05of times. It's hard to get it to look right.
0:40:06I couldn't do it.
0:40:07Yeah, you want to do like the Indiana Jones effect.
0:40:09Yeah, and I didn't even know where to start really with the Mac apps, but I could pull
0:40:14that together way easier on iOS.
0:40:17Because now I could just record the screen and just physically move the plane from place
0:40:20to place.
0:40:21If you can do screen recording on an iPad, there are a lot of simple animations that
0:40:27become way easier.
0:40:29If you want to do complex stuff, you're still going to want to go back to the Mac.
0:40:32But I can see a lot of things that people can do with the screen recording.
0:40:38I'm just thinking about animation, but I feel like that really opens up a whole world of
0:40:43other things that people can do.
0:40:45I mean, even just doing tech support for other people.
0:40:49I just want to record me doing the thing, and then I can send you the video file and
0:40:53you can just see it right now.
0:40:55This is what you do.
0:40:56in the inverse when mom calls and she's like,
0:40:59I can't work out why my phone is doing this.
0:41:02Like why do I have a little phone icon in the top left?
0:41:05I was like, I don't even know what you're talking about.
0:41:06- That is always, that is the biggest tech support problem
0:41:09is person on the other end who needs the tech support
0:41:13is also the person who very often doesn't have
0:41:16the technical vocabulary to describe what they're looking at
0:41:19in ways that makes it immediately understandable.
0:41:22And sometimes you will hear a visual description of a thing
0:41:25You're like, I don't know what the hell that is.
0:41:27And then when you see it, you go, oh, right,
0:41:29it's the thing over there, right,
0:41:31that's called the WYSIWOG, right?
0:41:32And it's like, if you'd said WYSIWOG,
0:41:34I would have known immediately what it was.
0:41:35- We would have been, an hour ago,
0:41:37we could have got through this.
0:41:37- Right, but you're describing the shape of it,
0:41:39and it's like, in my brain,
0:41:40I just don't think of it that way.
0:41:41Yeah, so I think the screen sharing,
0:41:44it's such a little feature,
0:41:47but it's one more thing that removes the need for a Mac
0:41:52for a bunch of stuff.
0:41:54'cause you've been able to do it if you plug a cable in
0:41:56and you do quick timers. - And you do quick timers.
0:41:58- But it's just like I never think of it.
0:42:00- Yeah, and it's such a hassle
0:42:02that you're never going to want to do that as a workflow.
0:42:05(chiming)
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0:43:31While we're talking about the screen recording, I will ask you, because I don't 100% know
0:43:36what you think about this, the very controversial change to the look of Control Center.
0:43:42Ah, yeah okay.
0:43:44Where do you, describe it for the listeners in case they're unaware, and then tell me
0:43:47where you come down on this.
0:43:49of iOS 10, Control Center went from being this single panel page of shortcuts to
0:43:55three pages. So you would swipe up your three pages if you had any homekit
0:43:59devices installed. So you would have like play and pause and some app shortcuts
0:44:03and then you'd have all these big music card and then you would have this like
0:44:09homekit set of switches. And now I think mostly because of how they've changed
0:44:16iOS on the iPad where that same animation now brings the dock up instead.
0:44:20They have moved all of these switches into one place and it's now
0:44:27customizable to an extent where Apple has exposed more switches available of
0:44:33their own system stuff that you can add in and you can also 3d touch where you
0:44:38press into the screen on the newer phones and it will bring up additional
0:44:41buttons like for example you can have an entire Apple TV remote in Control Center now.
0:44:45I saw that. It's very funny looking on the screen.
0:44:48Very strange. So they've moved it all into this one panel.
0:44:52It is this big box of buttons and switches and faders and spinners and gosh knows what else
0:45:01in one screen in all different sizes. So it looks like a kind of weird jigsaw puzzle of buttons.
0:45:08I think it's beautiful. I love it.
0:45:13It is so my aesthetic.
0:45:16Like, I am a sticker person and it effectively looks like they have just taken stickers.
0:45:22I would never have thought about it that way.
0:45:24I would never have thought about it that way, but as soon as you say it, it does look like an array of stickers.
0:45:29It's just like, I can appreciate having as much functionality as possible in as small a space as possible
0:45:37and just minimizing the UI that goes around it.
0:45:40I think it looks brilliant. I think it looks fun and weird and I can move stuff around.
0:45:45I'm really on board with it.
0:45:47That's very interesting. So this is the thing that people seem very divided on.
0:45:52This is the thing.
0:45:53And a lot of people are coming down on the "Oh my god, it's atrocious."
0:45:58And I am with you that I actually like the look of it.
0:46:03I think it is a bit messy in some ways,
0:46:08and I can see why a lot of people would react poorly to it,
0:46:13but as far as I'm concerned, I think it's fantastic too.
0:46:18And if someone doesn't like the visual look of it,
0:46:22I think you can still say that this is an appropriate place
0:46:25where Apple is making, you have this slider
0:46:28of how good does it look versus how well does it work,
0:46:31And Control Center is one of those places
0:46:36where I am very happy if I was on the design team
0:46:39to say, look, we need the slider very far over
0:46:42into the how well does it work,
0:46:44because the whole reason Control Center exists
0:46:48is because you want to just do something quickly.
0:46:51And you want to just flip up and press a button
0:46:54and have a thing happen.
0:46:56And I think the redesign of Control Center
0:47:00you know, really for quite a while now has leaned too hard on the
0:47:05"Oh, we want it to look nice and pretty when it comes up" and has been a little
0:47:09bit frustrating on the usability side.
0:47:11I love that you can add or subtract the buttons that you're not going to use.
0:47:15I haven't gone all the way to customizing those buttons.
0:47:20Next year, I think. Looking at you, calculator button.
0:47:23Yeah, I just know and desire.
0:47:27Pcalc is terrible, Pcalc's way better.
0:47:29But I'm, so yeah, it's, I wasn't sure
0:47:33what you would think of it, but as soon as you say
0:47:35it looks like stickers, of course you'd love it.
0:47:37- Of course you'd love it. - Of course you'd love it.
0:47:38- It's everything about me.
0:47:39It's like I've been saying to you,
0:47:40that is my aesthetic, that is it, that is 100% it.
0:47:44What I like about this is,
0:47:45in regards to the function of a form,
0:47:48the whole point of Control Center
0:47:51is to give you quick access to things,
0:47:53and quick access comes from muscle memory.
0:47:56The problem with Control Center now is,
0:47:58when you swipe it up, now I know what,
0:48:00okay, the way it is built and the way it works is,
0:48:03it swipes up to the last panel you had open.
0:48:06But what that means is, every time I swipe it up,
0:48:09there is a pause where I have to realize
0:48:13if I'm in the right place.
0:48:14- Yeah, you have to visually look at the screen
0:48:16and your brain has to process which action is going,
0:48:20and already now it's like muscle memory is over.
0:48:22- 'Cause it's fine if I press play on a song
0:48:24and then I need to skip a song in two minutes, right?
0:48:26I know it's there and I swipe it up and I hit the button.
0:48:29But tomorrow, when I need to change the color of my light,
0:48:34it's not where I need it to be.
0:48:36And so that's why I am a big fan of this,
0:48:39is you are putting as much functionality as you can
0:48:42into one screen, which means I am gonna know
0:48:44after a couple of weeks where all of those buttons live.
0:48:48And I think that that's, again,
0:48:51so this is another feature I think,
0:48:52where they're like, we've used this for a year
0:48:54and we have realized it sucks and we have to start again.
0:48:58- Yeah, the three panel swipe left, swipe right,
0:49:01it stays where you last left it,
0:49:03control center was crazy making,
0:49:06especially on a 12.9 inch iPad.
0:49:09It's like, it's like--
0:49:11- Well, they could have fit it all on there.
0:49:13- They could have fit it all on.
0:49:14It's like it's there intentionally to drive you crazy
0:49:17on the gigantic iPad.
0:49:19- That was the most egregious.
0:49:20- Yeah, I was like, it works great on iPad.
0:49:23No, it doesn't.
0:49:24- No, it doesn't.
0:49:24- Not on iPad at all.
0:49:26It's enraging on iPad.
0:49:27- Little things like that is what makes me realize
0:49:30that we got this version of iOS later than intended.
0:49:34'Cause that's such a weird thing to do,
0:49:37but they're just like, well, this is how iOS is
0:49:39because we haven't got anything else for the iPad yet.
0:49:41So we're just moving these features
0:49:44onto all these devices, right?
0:49:45- Yeah.
0:49:47- This wasn't the only iPad news that we got though.
0:49:49It wasn't just software.
0:49:51We also got hardware.
0:49:52- Mm-hmm.
0:49:54got our hardware. They refreshed the entire line.
0:49:57Yeah, I am
0:50:01I am very happy about this because you know
0:50:05I had a deep fear going into this keynote. So I was very confident about
0:50:09iPad hardware. But I had a really deep fear
0:50:14that what we were going to get is the new 10.5 inch iPad which we did get
0:50:19and I thought it was going to be all quiet on the Western Front
0:50:22with the 12.9 inch iPad.
0:50:24- Do you remember what I said to you at dinner
0:50:26the night before, Gray?
0:50:27- What did you say?
0:50:28It's been so busy, I don't remember.
0:50:29- We were sitting around at dinner and you and Marco
0:50:31were saying that you thought it was dead, dead, dead forever
0:50:34and I said, if they update one,
0:50:36I believe they'll update both.
0:50:38And I was really strong on this and you two were like,
0:50:40no, no, Tim Cook's a crazy man.
0:50:42(laughing)
0:50:44- I wasn't sure it was gonna be dead forever,
0:50:46but I was just concerned that something about it
0:50:50I just felt it might stick around in the same form factor
0:50:55for a very long time without any internal updates
0:50:58or anything.
0:50:59I was just, something was just really nagging my mind
0:51:01about that, but that did not happen.
0:51:06- It did not.
0:51:07- And I was super psyched about that.
0:51:08- Yeah, it was good.
0:51:10- That was the most excited part for me in the keynote
0:51:13was new 12.9 inch iPad, so happy, so happy.
0:51:19Yeah, the 10.5 is amazing and I'm going to be buying one as soon as I get home.
0:51:25It isn't exactly what I wanted.
0:51:28Now why is that? Because I know you have been very excited for this.
0:51:32And I feel like it looks just like it did in all the rumors.
0:51:37It seems like this looks exactly like what we were expecting.
0:51:40Yep, it's the exact hardware I expected it to be.
0:51:43It is not what I thought it was going to be from a software perspective.
0:51:46So we had a 9.7 inch iPad Pro and a 12.9 inch iPad Pro.
0:51:50Right.
0:51:51A 10.5 inch iPad Pro kind of sits between the middle,
0:51:54but it is doing literally nothing for the software to make it any different.
0:52:01So what I was hoping was going to happen was that the 10.5 inch iPad Pro
0:52:06would give me the exact same software experience as the 12.9
0:52:10but shrunk down so I would get two full-sized iPad applications side by side but it isn't like that.
0:52:17It's like with the 9.7 where you get this kind of like halfway between iPhone and iPad
0:52:23application if you have it split right down the middle. So if you have like two-thirds of the
0:52:29screen was one app and one-third of the screen is another you get one full iPad app and then an
0:52:33iPhone app. But if you bring them to the middle on the 9.7 and on the 10.5 you get this kind of like
0:52:39in between. Okay, it's a different view controller on that one.
0:52:43Okay. Right, and that's how it's been with the 9.7, but on the big one, on the big
0:52:47iPad Pro, the 12.9 inch iPad Pro, you get two full-sized portrait iPad
0:52:52applications side by side. Okay. And I was hoping that the 10.5 would
0:52:56be like the 12.9 and that you would get like if you put
0:52:59two apps side by side it's two portrait apps side by side, but that's not what
0:53:03you get. Right, the operating system would tell them
0:53:06"You are a full screen app. Act like it."
0:53:09But they don't. They still say it's small enough that if you have a different view controller,
0:53:13it's using the more mobile view controller.
0:53:16That's interesting. I've never even really tuned into that on the smaller iPad Pro.
0:53:19But I can see now immediately why that is a big considering factor in which you're going to use.
0:53:28Because what I was hoping was, whilst I thoroughly enjoy the multi-pad lifestyle,
0:53:35that if I got this iPad, it might potentially
0:53:40mean I only need one, because I will be getting
0:53:43what I hope to be best of both worlds.
0:53:45That's not the case.
0:53:47So it's like for me, I'm like,
0:53:49I'm not trying to look a gift horse in the mouth with this,
0:53:52but I don't understand why they increased the screen,
0:53:56other than to differentiate it
0:53:57from the regular sized device called iPad,
0:54:01which is $329 and is 9.7 inch in size and screen.
0:54:06I think that's the only reason,
0:54:07is that they wanted to have 9.7 is the cheap one,
0:54:11then you have these two Pro ones,
0:54:12one is 10 and a half inches and one is 12.9 inches.
0:54:15And again, if you're a company making these products,
0:54:19you should differentiate them.
0:54:21But there doesn't seem to be anything in the iPad
0:54:24that takes advantage of the additional size of the screen.
0:54:27And the reason that I'm annoyed about this
0:54:28is they made the iPad bigger.
0:54:30So the iPad itself is bigger to make the screen bigger for kind of no real reason it seems.
0:54:39Right, but the software is still treating it like it's go to the mobile version.
0:54:44But I've played with one, I spent some time with one and when you hold it, you don't know it's bigger.
0:54:50They kept the weight the same, it doesn't feel bigger but it looks fantastic.
0:54:54Fantastic right having the bigger screen. I'm looking at my old iPad right now, and I'm like look at all that bezel
0:55:00You ugly ugly little thing, right?
0:55:03He's a nice little guy.
0:55:06He's right there man. He's all covered in stickers.
0:55:08He has failed me now.
0:55:10Wow that's hard.
0:55:11There is a new hotness in town and this little guy ain't in it no more.
0:55:15Wow so sorry buddy.
0:55:16But this is what Apple does right and it's done that.
0:55:19They make the device you were perfectly fine with yesterday,
0:55:23hideous today. And that's what they've done with this. So I'm happy to have new hardware,
0:55:30it's got some amazing new features which we're going to talk about in a second, but just from
0:55:35a pure like what the screen size has brought me, there isn't really anything to that.
0:55:40Okay that's interesting, that's very interesting. I think I didn't understand that with the view
0:55:45controllers and like this is what you were looking for with it. So that makes it a lot more sense
0:55:49about why it's amazing but you're a little bit lukewarm on it because of
0:55:55that lack of that feature. Yeah it's like I'm really excited about iPad software
0:55:59I'm really excited about the new iPad hardware but the combination of those
0:56:03two and the 10.5 hasn't really changed anything. Right right. Like independently
0:56:07they're both brilliant but together there's nothing special going on. But
0:56:11the crowning feature of this device is a new display technology that Apple's
0:56:16calling ProMotion. It encompasses a bunch of different things. One of these things is
0:56:21a 120Hz refresh rate. Now the best way to try and describe this, so it's refreshing
0:56:27to scream off which means they can show more fluid animation. But you know when you see
0:56:33Apple do this, you see lots of companies do this. When you're watching a movie like a
0:56:37promo footage or an advert or something and you see someone holding a device and they're
0:56:43using it but it looks fake right and it's because they're using rendered
0:56:48animations with like a green screen so they're just overlaying it and it always
0:56:52looks weird like the fingers never really kind of exactly where it should be
0:56:55and all the animations look too smooth that's how these new iPads look because
0:57:00the animations are so smooth the first time you see it almost looks broken but
0:57:06it just doesn't look real it's fantastic yeah I really wish I had seen one of
0:57:12things in person. You can say it. It's okay. We're here. People have them. It's okay. You
0:57:21can say it. It's fine. Okay. Just wanted to, just wanted to clear. Yeah. Another great
0:57:26reason to come to WWDC. You get to, people have hardware and you get to see it. Things
0:57:30get left on counters. Who knows how, right? Who knows? Who knows how? It's interesting.
0:57:37I am, I am, I don't know how to put this, but I am, I'm going to be real curious to
0:57:41to see when I have one for a while, playing around with it
0:57:44and what it's really like,
0:57:46because there is a certain kind of unreality to it.
0:57:50- Yeah, it is. - And I think I am
0:57:53in the minority of people who,
0:57:56okay, so there's two kinds of people in the world,
0:57:59people who notice frame rates and people who don't.
0:58:02And I'm kind of fascinated by how some people
0:58:04just can't see the difference between,
0:58:06like when you shoot on your iPhone,
0:58:07if you put it in 60 frames per second mode
0:58:09versus 30 frames per second mode.
0:58:11And I think it looks like an abhorrent disaster if people shoot in 60 frames a second.
0:58:15Yeah, okay, so you're on the same page with me on this.
0:58:17Yeah, it's like, I will not shoot in 60 frames per second on my phone because it's like,
0:58:21"Ugh, I hate it!"
0:58:23You're showing me too much.
0:58:25It's almost like it's a reality uncanny valley.
0:58:29It's so close to infinite frames per second.
0:58:3460 is just inches away from infinite.
0:58:39but it's not actually looking through a transparent piece of glass that a thing happened.
0:58:43Like, that's sort of the feeling of looking at 60 frames per second footage.
0:58:47And I have a little bit of that same feeling looking at the 120 frames per second
0:58:55animations and scrolling on the new iPad. I think I'll get used to it, but it is weird.
0:59:02But what I've... but the thing that is a concern for me is it feels like a little bit of a retina
0:59:07a transition is that I think when I got used to retina screens,
0:59:11I had a hard time working with non retina screens and I'm concerned about,
0:59:17I think I will get totally used to the 120 frames per second,
0:59:23but what I'm worried about is then switching back to screens that are at a
0:59:27lower frame rate. Once my brain is used to the idea that, Oh,
0:59:30things on a computer, they move in this preternaturally smooth way.
0:59:35and then if it doesn't quite look the same,
0:59:37I think this is going to be coming everywhere,
0:59:39I just really hope it's in the new iPhone.
0:59:43- I think it will be, I really do think it will be.
0:59:45I mean, 'cause again, I don't know enough
0:59:47about how the technology works,
0:59:48but people smarter than me are telling me
0:59:50that it's the display technology in the chip.
0:59:52Well, I mean, the iPhone's gonna get the best display
0:59:55Apple can make and the best chip they can make.
0:59:57It's not like something like the True Tone stuff
0:59:59where it needs additional sensors,
1:00:01which is why it maybe hasn't come to the iPhone yet.
1:00:04it seems like it would be easier to do than TrueTumbles
1:00:08in the iPhone.
1:00:09- Yeah, so I expect you're right about that.
1:00:12So I'm very interested to see once I actually own
1:00:15one of these things and use it for a while,
1:00:17how it goes, how this transition goes.
1:00:20But the thing that to me is amazing
1:00:25is the decreased latency in terms of the pen usage.
1:00:32So the other thing that happened, this is part of this whole system called ProMotion,
1:00:38is they have increased the refresh rate of what the Pencil is able to provide.
1:00:44So in the current versions of the iPad, the frame rate on the screens is 60Hz, what it's
1:00:51able to do is 60Hz, and it is refreshing the screen at 120Hz to find Pencil input so it
1:00:59reduces lag and increases smoothness.
1:01:02the new devices they have a 120 Hertz for the output of the screen and a 240
1:01:08Hertz refresh rate for the pencil. So they are continuing the smoothness
1:01:13by doubling that. The smoothness has been doubled. Yes, more smooth. I've also heard
1:01:18that they're doing some interesting things with better predictive technology
1:01:22about which way your hand is going with the pencil and all these things.
1:01:26But I think if you go back, if you go back last, I'm sorry, if you go back two
1:01:32years ago when we were originally talking about how desperate we were to get our hands
1:01:36on a pencil and see what does it look like and how does it work.
1:01:41Oh gosh, yeah.
1:01:42Well, like I see because now you're here in person, I see you making this face and you're
1:01:45trying to do the mental math on was it two years ago and the answer was yes, Myke.
1:01:49Whoa.
1:01:50Yeah.
1:01:51We've been doing this for a long time.
1:01:52Very long time.
1:01:53Episode 52 can throw you off.
1:01:57Yes, it can.
1:01:58But so if you go back and listen to those old episodes, we were desperate because we
1:02:01wanted to see it because we're both very sensitive to the pencil latency and just
1:02:05essentially didn't trust anybody's reports of like "oh it's great you can't
1:02:11tell the difference" like I don't believe you for a moment like I'm sure I will be
1:02:15able to tell and I think if memory serves me my verdict was the latency was
1:02:20acceptable which as opposed to the previous style eye that were like using
1:02:25hot dogs on a screen was just it was totally unacceptable just completely why
1:02:30- Why even bother? - Yeah, why even bother?
1:02:31Just a tale of misery.
1:02:34But so when I'm using my current 12.9-inch iPad,
1:02:39I can see that there's a little bit of latency
1:02:41with the pen, but it's fine.
1:02:42Like, it is acceptable, and I have gotten very used to it.
1:02:45But when I got a chance, just for a few minutes,
1:02:48to try the Pencil with what is my personal favorite
1:02:52handwriting app, and I think the best,
1:02:54which is GoodNotes 4, I got to try those two together,
1:02:58And it was eerie for the first few moments
1:03:01because it literally felt like,
1:03:04oh, I am writing with an ink pen on a piece of glass.
1:03:08- And bear in mind, this is about, I assume,
1:03:12the app developer being able to optimize.
1:03:15- This is exactly it.
1:03:16I wanted to see it on GoodNotes in particular
1:03:18because I feel like that developer
1:03:20has done an amazing job with the handwriting.
1:03:23If you are really sensitive to this stuff,
1:03:25you can see there's, at least in my opinion,
1:03:28there's a very big difference between the handwriting
1:03:29on something like Notability versus GoodNotes,
1:03:33and I think GoodNotes does a really great job.
1:03:35But so it's like pre-developer optimizations,
1:03:40it's uncanny.
1:03:41And I'd say like this, I only used it for a few minutes,
1:03:45but in those few minutes, I feel like I can say
1:03:47that the latency was unnoticeable,
1:03:50that it felt like it was right under the pencil tip
1:03:53the whole time.
1:03:55and it really is a very big subjective feeling change
1:04:00using it that way.
1:04:02So I am really looking forward to editing the scripts
1:04:06with the pencil on the screen.
1:04:09And you know, we haven't discussed it,
1:04:13but you know I put up a wish list
1:04:15before the keynote went up of things that I wanted,
1:04:18and one of those things was Apple Pencil 2.
1:04:20There are a lot of things that I still wanted
1:04:23an Apple Pencil, mostly it not being in cotton white,
1:04:27and maybe aluminum with a little grip on it,
1:04:30but all those things aside, I feel in retrospect
1:04:33like I can half tick that box,
1:04:35because even though the pencil isn't new,
1:04:39the experience of using it with the new hardware
1:04:42makes it feel like it was a new one.
1:04:45Like if someone had handed me a pencil and said,
1:04:48"Oh, this is the Apple Pencil 2," and used it on the screen,
1:04:50I would be saying like, I cannot believe
1:04:53how you guys got the latency down, it's amazing.
1:04:55- Yeah, it's one of those things with these combination
1:04:59of two pieces of hardware and software,
1:05:01is that you didn't need to update the hardware
1:05:03of the pencil at all to make this change,
1:05:05which is really impressive.
1:05:06- Yeah, it really is.
1:05:08- And I agree with you, I was hoping that we were gonna get
1:05:11more in regards to the pencil, like an actual new model,
1:05:15but that hasn't happened.
1:05:16So, I mean, the things that I and you want with this,
1:05:20I'm not surprised that they haven't bothered
1:05:22to change it yet.
1:05:24I feel like you can do that down the line.
1:05:26There's no real need to make those changes right now
1:05:29other than to just placate me and you.
1:05:32In regards to the pencil,
1:05:34there were two interesting things there.
1:05:36One is if you have an Apple Pencil now,
1:05:38you can tap on a locked screen and start writing a note.
1:05:43- I thought that was a genius interface addition, yeah.
1:05:45- So this is very similar to the way
1:05:47that the Samsung Galaxy Note series has been for a while.
1:05:50This is a little bit cooler in that you just start writing
1:05:55and you write on the black screen.
1:05:57- Oh, okay. - Yeah,
1:05:58which is really cool.
1:06:00With the, on the iPad, you tap it
1:06:02and it just brings up a note which is sandboxed.
1:06:06You can't access your other notes
1:06:07until you unlock the device. - Until you unlock it.
1:06:09- But you're able to just take notes really quickly,
1:06:11which I think is really cool.
1:06:13There's also like the ability to draw directly
1:06:15into some applications.
1:06:18So Notes and Mail have it.
1:06:19I assume this is a developer API as well,
1:06:21where you're able to,
1:06:22rather than enter a specific drawing mode,
1:06:25you can just draw,
1:06:26as well as this new screenshot function,
1:06:29where you take a screenshot on the iPad,
1:06:30it flies down to the bottom left hand corner,
1:06:32you can mark up and send it.
1:06:33- Right, yeah, you can grab it, draw it, yeah.
1:06:35- So amazing.
1:06:36But what they have made sure to keep
1:06:39is the ability to maintain what me and you fought hard
1:06:44to keep, which is the ability to be able to use
1:06:47the Apple Pencil as a UI manipulation tool
1:06:49to use it as a replacement for the finger,
1:06:52to the point where there is some settings somewhere
1:06:54where you're actually able to turn off
1:06:56this instant drawing functionality,
1:06:58so you can keep moving around notes.
1:07:01Now, I was really surprised to see that.
1:07:04I figured the applications where they allow you
1:07:07to just start drawing in them, they would take it away.
1:07:10- Yeah, that, I was, anyone who's following on Twitter,
1:07:13no, like I was getting very anxious
1:07:15because I was looking at a lot of,
1:07:16because when they're demoing the,
1:07:18oh, here's how you draw on the screenshot thing,
1:07:19here's how you do a whole bunch of stuff,
1:07:21it looks like you're just drawing
1:07:25on the screen immediately.
1:07:27And I was watching all the videos incredibly closely,
1:07:30like I just wanna see someone press a button
1:07:32with the Apple Pencil, and they never do.
1:07:35And I was extremely worried about it.
1:07:37But yeah, it's such a huge deal, such a big relief
1:07:42that they were able to add all of these interesting features
1:07:47that are related to this instant drawing,
1:07:50which we think was the original vision
1:07:52of how the Pencil would work.
1:07:54They were able to add all of those features
1:07:57while keeping UI navigation with the Pencil.
1:08:00I think it's fantastic.
1:08:02I feel like if anybody on that interface team
1:08:06is listening to this,
1:08:07I want to personally thank you for this because it's--
1:08:09- It's so important to us.
1:08:11- Yeah, I cannot express in words adequately
1:08:14how much of a big deal that is to me.
1:08:17So my personal thanks goes out to anyone
1:08:21who worked on that, and I understand that
1:08:24adding that additional functionality
1:08:27while keeping UI navigation was not an easy thing to do.
1:08:31Like I can see that. - And adding a setting.
1:08:33- Yeah, yeah. - As well, right?
1:08:34Which rightly so in a lot of ways,
1:08:38Apple was very reluctant to add settings to things
1:08:40to try and keep the user interface simple.
1:08:43So to have that is great.
1:08:44I did say at the time, and I do mean this,
1:08:46that if it was gone in certain applications
1:08:49like Notes or Mail, I would have accepted it.
1:08:52Because my problem at the time was
1:08:55when an Apple originally took this away in like,
1:08:57was it like iOS 10 beta something?
1:09:00- Yeah, it was like, yeah, the second beta it disappeared.
1:09:03- There was no reason, there was no added functionality.
1:09:07And I think I remember saying at the time
1:09:08that I would have been happy
1:09:10if we could see why.
1:09:12And all it seemed like at the time was,
1:09:14boo hoo, I don't like you using my software in this way.
1:09:18Because there was no functionality that was being added.
1:09:21Like this is functionality that is added,
1:09:23and you're like, okay, I can see why maybe I can't scroll
1:09:25in Apple Notes anymore.
1:09:28But there was nothing like that.
1:09:29It just seemed like they were preparing for this then,
1:09:32by just like, take it away,
1:09:34rather than trying to fix and provide the solution.
1:09:37So if it would have been gone in Notes,
1:09:39So I've gone, okay, there is additional functionality here,
1:09:43I'll understand.
1:09:44But I'm really happy that's not the case.
1:09:47- Yeah, I'm extremely happy.
1:09:48- I'm more happy this way,
1:09:50but I would have at least accepted it.
1:09:52We would be on this show right now
1:09:53and I wouldn't be complaining,
1:09:54I wouldn't be begging like we did last time.
1:09:57I would have said it's a shame, I understand.
1:09:59I use apps that are like this.
1:10:00So I use Notability quite a lot.
1:10:03And if you have the pencil,
1:10:04you have to use your finger as well to move,
1:10:07or you switch into a different mode.
1:10:09And I get it, it's like, but you know, it's always there.
1:10:11I can just swipe in and write, swipe in and write.
1:10:14It's fine.
1:10:14It was just like, I didn't,
1:10:15then wanted to be able to go back to the home screen
1:10:17and tap around as I did.
1:10:19So the fact that it's all there and it's all maintained,
1:10:23it's such a big win for usability
1:10:25and it is an accessibility feature.
1:10:27- Yeah, it 100% is.
1:10:29- Like injuries through repetitive strain injury, RSI,
1:10:34which me and you both have,
1:10:35new to a much worse extent than me,
1:10:39It allows us to continue to be able to work
1:10:42for long periods of time because we can switch modes.
1:10:45- Yeah, I was at breakfast this morning
1:10:48with essentially eight people,
1:10:51and there was, the youngest one of us at the table
1:10:55was describing that she was beginning
1:10:57to get the first signs of RSI.
1:11:00And immediately, right, everybody at the table,
1:11:04we are all people who make a living on computers.
1:11:08It was like everyone leaned in and was just focusing
1:11:12on how central this is.
1:11:13Like you are younger than us if you're getting
1:11:16the beginnings of this, like focus on it right now.
1:11:19It's like everybody at that table who makes a living
1:11:21on computers in one form or another has to focus
1:11:26on an RSI issue or an ergonomic issue in their own way
1:11:31for their own thing.
1:11:32And yeah, that's why I think the pencil as a stylist
1:11:35for some people and I'm in that category is a vital input accessibility feature and it
1:11:43really helps avoid injuries for people.
1:11:46The ability to use a pen on my Mac with my Wacom tablet saved my hand. Like my right
1:11:53hand has been saved by the fact that I can use my left hand. I'm unique in this way where
1:11:59I'm extremely lucky that I am left handed for writing and right handed for mouse and
1:12:05track pad manipulation because I can do the most magical thing. I give my hands a break.
1:12:12It's not just that I'm able to swap around like I'm very lucky in this way. So all of
1:12:16my teasing as a kid for being left handed, look at me now! So I'm really lucky that way
1:12:22but it is this ability to be able to switch modes to grip in a different way. To be able
1:12:28to hold a pen which is more natural to us because we do it from a much earlier age.
1:12:32I don't think any of it's natural, but for whatever reason that is more than holding
1:12:35a mouse.
1:12:36Which makes me think, by the way, I was talking to Adina about this recently, I wonder if
1:12:43and how these things will change in the next 10 or 15 years.
1:12:48Like if kids today, or maybe in a generation younger than me or you, won't get RSI problems
1:12:55in their hands for using trackpads and mice as much as we did.
1:12:59- Well, my suspicion is that if,
1:13:03and I know we've discussed this on the show
1:13:05back when we were talking about this originally,
1:13:06but if you think about your hand,
1:13:08your gripping muscles are much stronger
1:13:11than your opening your hand muscles, right?
1:13:13You can just feel it.
1:13:14And if you hold out your arm in front of you
1:13:17and you open your hand,
1:13:19you can feel, particularly in your index
1:13:23and your middle finger, that holding it up
1:13:26is much more of a strain than keeping a closed fist.
1:13:30- Okay, I see where you're going.
1:13:32- You can feel it in your hands,
1:13:34and so the iPad as a touch surface is nothing but
1:13:39reach out with your hand and pull your index
1:13:42and middle finger back, right?
1:13:43You're doing that hundreds and hundreds of times.
1:13:46So everybody's body is different
1:13:48in terms of what are they more susceptible to,
1:13:51but I'm willing to bet that a higher portion
1:13:54of the population, if you expose them
1:13:55to that repetitive motion of keep your index
1:13:58and middle finger up, I think a higher proportion
1:14:01of them will develop strained injuries
1:14:04as compared to keep your fist closed,
1:14:08which is the hand position for holding a pen.
1:14:12- Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
1:14:13That explains, so I wonder, is it something anatomical
1:14:18or is it just that we start at an earlier age,
1:14:21so that we're kind of just more used to it?
1:14:23That makes a lot of sense.
1:14:25And I really wonder, like, all this time using touch screens,
1:14:30I don't know.
1:14:31I don't know, 'cause I think it is unproven right now
1:14:33how ergonomic the iPad is and the iPhone is.
1:14:36Like, I don't think we really know.
1:14:38- Yeah, we really don't.
1:14:39- If it's just destroying us or not.
1:14:41Like, I think we're too far.
1:14:42Oh, so my hands are really hurting me now.
1:14:45Like, now we've been talking about it,
1:14:46it's like, oh, my wrists.
1:14:47- Yeah, you can feel every muscle.
1:14:50Every muscle and tendon slowly degrading
1:14:53as you age and use them.
1:14:55[sighs]
1:14:57I once, a while back, I can't remember the name of the story,
1:15:00but I once read a science fiction book about a race of aliens that are essentially made of sand,
1:15:05and so they have to be very careful about everything that they do and touch
1:15:10so they're aware that every interaction with the world really costs them
1:15:14because they're constantly rubbing off on all of the surfaces.
1:15:17And we are just like that over a longer timescale.
1:15:20We're all fading into sand over time, Myke.
1:15:24Every time you touch your iPad.
1:15:26But anyway, awesome to keep you on navigation.
1:15:29Thank you so much, Apple team.
1:15:31I really appreciate it.
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1:16:59So we are both currently in San Jose as I mentioned and I'm going to be flying back
1:17:03home to London tomorrow.
1:17:05I think the iPads come out on like Tuesday of next week.
1:17:10So I'll hopefully own one by about the time this episode will be coming out.
1:17:15So I didn't actually, this is my usual thing, I didn't buy online.
1:17:19I want to just go to the store, get it in my little grubby hands, and go back home again.
1:17:25I'm not waiting around for no delivery, man.
1:17:28Did I tell you about what happened to me when I bought the Switch?
1:17:31No.
1:17:32So I bought three Nintendo Switches, right?
1:17:34Oh god, okay, three?
1:17:36I think I heard a while back you were planning on buying two.
1:17:40I ordered, I pre-ordered three because I wanted to make sure I got it on day one.
1:17:43I've had so many problems, especially with Amazon.
1:17:45Yeah.
1:17:46But like I, when I pre-ordered the PSVR headset and then they emailed me on the morning,
1:17:49they were like, "Yeah, we ain't even got them."
1:17:51It was like the worst, just so annoying because I'm a terrible person.
1:17:54So you wanted to ensure delivery.
1:17:56This is not the multi-switch lifestyle.
1:17:58Exactly.
1:17:59Okay.
1:17:59Ensure delivery.
1:18:00Two of, one of them I sold to my brother, one I returned.
1:18:02Okay.
1:18:02He was purely just, I was just spreading the risk, right?
1:18:05Got it.
1:18:06On the morning that they were being delivered,
1:18:10I had a guy coming to fit a fan in the bathroom and he calls me and he's like, "Your intercom's
1:18:15broken."
1:18:16And I'm like, "F*ck this.
1:18:23I have three Nintendo Switches coming today."
1:18:25So do you want to know what I did?
1:18:28Did you sit down in front of the door like a little sad-o?
1:18:31Got a chair, sat it by the window, and I was watching out on the street for the delivery
1:18:37guy and like half an hour later I see a guy like an Amazon guy walking over a bunch of
1:18:42boxes and I'm like just watching him and he comes to the door and I like just open the
1:18:48door and I'm like I'm coming downstairs. I got, they all came.
1:18:53I like the idea that as you were doing this, the song "The Waiting is the Hardest Part"
1:18:58by Tom Petty is playing in the background. Because I can't do anything other than look
1:19:01because I've got to watch out for the delivery drivers, right? So I'm just sitting there
1:19:04the whole time and I'm so pleased that it arrived early in the morning not like 2 p.m.
1:19:08in the afternoon. I'm a terrible person. I'm more of my terrible person this but I was
1:19:12really excited about the switch and you know what it's freaking worth it because I love
1:19:16that thing. You're very excited about it. We took like an 11 hour flight me and Federico
1:19:20to get here. We were able to fill half of that time playing Mario Kart. That's that's
1:19:24good use of the switch. It was pretty great. It was pretty great. So I'm gonna be getting
1:19:30an iPad. I'm gonna be buying the 10.5. That's the one I'm gonna be buying because it's the
1:19:34new one and I want to try it out I want to see what it's like. However, I do not foresee
1:19:41me moving away from the moddipad lifestyle because I bring the smaller iPad when I travel
1:19:48mostly, it's mostly my out of the house computer so when I travel when I go out to work somewhere
1:19:54I would take the smaller one. When I'm at home working I have the bigger one so over
1:19:59time what I originally thought was how it would shake out is how it would shake out.
1:20:02My large iPad Pro is like my desktop machine and my small iPad Pro is like my laptop.
1:20:08That's kind of how it has shaken out for me.
1:20:10But I want to get the 10.5 first because it's the newer one.
1:20:13It looks new, it has new stuff, big as green, it just looks new.
1:20:16But I intend on buying the bigger one at some point in the future as well.
1:20:24And I'm wondering what your multi-pad lifestyle plan is for these.
1:20:31I would expect it's going to be in the inverse.
1:20:34- Okay, so my current setup is that I don't have
1:20:41a 9.7 inch iPad Pro that is mine.
1:20:46So what happened in my household?
1:20:49- My household is in disarray right now
1:20:54because the iPad Mini seems to be going away.
1:20:56- Okay, so let's talk about the iPad Mini for a second.
1:20:59- Okay.
1:21:00Where we should start the story is that over the past many years,
1:21:04the iPad mini has become for my wife,
1:21:08her general purpose computer.
1:21:10I am astounded at her ability to use that as her
1:21:16everything machine.
1:21:17She must be proportionally the right size to use the key like the how fast she
1:21:21can type on the iPad mini keyboard screen. Like it blows my mind.
1:21:25And I look like a doddering old man when I try to use the software keyboard.
1:21:29I can blame that on Dvorak though, but it's still,
1:21:31I could type so slowly, but she just, you know,
1:21:33types it all. - Dvorak was perfect.
1:21:35- But they don't have a Dvorak keyboard for iPad,
1:21:38that's what it is, Myke.
1:21:40So she's been using that for years as her main computer.
1:21:44Now the position that she is in,
1:21:49is going back to our earlier conversation,
1:21:51she recently started developing her own RSI problems
1:21:56from using the iPad and I suspect the same way
1:21:59of holding her fingers back over the screen.
1:22:02And so as soon as that started happening,
1:22:03I'm like, okay, you're not pushing this any further.
1:22:06And I gave her my small iPad Pro to use with the Pencil.
1:22:11And she totally fell in love with using the Pencil.
1:22:16This is just like I was really pushing
1:22:18the Wacom tablet on you a long time ago.
1:22:20Like the Pencil is a great interface
1:22:22and everyone I have ever been able to successfully
1:22:25get them to try using it on a computer.
1:22:26They've eventually adopted it and loved it.
1:22:29I feel like it's the same thing with the Pencil.
1:22:31- Once again, we will say buy a Wacom tablet,
1:22:33set it to pen mode, and try it for a week.
1:22:36- Yeah, you have to do it that way.
1:22:39- That is the steps.
1:22:40And also currently we are both using the Intuos Pro.
1:22:43- Yep, yeah, it's fantastic.
1:22:45- Absolutely fantastic.
1:22:46It has buttons that you can set to do shortcuts.
1:22:49It's just brilliant.
1:22:50- It's a really great piece of hardware.
1:22:53But yeah, so my wife then started using the pencil
1:22:55with her iPad, which was my old 9.7.
1:22:59Now, where we were in what I thought was going to be
1:23:04the life cycle of the iPad, I thought,
1:23:06"Oh, this'll just be for a couple months."
1:23:08- Ah, ah-ha. - Right?
1:23:09And it ended up being like-- - We'll fool you, Greg.
1:23:10- Yeah, exactly. (laughing)
1:23:12It ended up being like a year without this small iPad,
1:23:16which I know what this sounds like,
1:23:19but I cannot describe how much of a disruption
1:23:21this actually was because of the way that I like to
1:23:24split and divide my work and I just,
1:23:27it's just this creeping delay of every month
1:23:30I thought well I'm not gonna buy another one now,
1:23:33like it's crazy, and every month it goes by
1:23:34it's crazier and crazier.
1:23:36So she's been using that thing.
1:23:38But, sounds like we have something in common here
1:23:41because while my wife loves using the pencil
1:23:44as UI navigation, she'll never go back,
1:23:47she's not a big fan of the bigger size, right?
1:23:51She has been saying to me,
1:23:53"I can't wait for them to come out with the mini
1:23:56"with pencil support."
1:23:57And I have been trying so hard to be like,
1:24:00"I just want to be clear.
1:24:03"I don't think this is going to happen.
1:24:05"You need to prepare yourself for that."
1:24:07And this has been a thought that has been,
1:24:10I think I have been incapable of putting it in her,
1:24:13like lodging it properly in her mind
1:24:15because it keeps coming back up where it'll be like,
1:24:17"Oh, I'm really looking forward
1:24:18"to having the mini with pencil support."
1:24:19like okay, but I think you might wanna prepare yourself
1:24:22that the Mini might not be around,
1:24:23like you might need to do this.
1:24:25So just a small thing to go, just to double back again,
1:24:28that UI that you were talking about before
1:24:32where you can have the pencil touch the screen
1:24:35and pop you right into a note and just start writing,
1:24:38when I saw that, that UI alone made me feel even more
1:24:43like I really wish they did make a Mini
1:24:45that worked with the pencil because--
1:24:48- That's a notepad.
1:24:49- That UI is like, it's begging to be a notepad.
1:24:54It really, really is begging to be a notepad.
1:24:57I suspect since they didn't update the Mini this time,
1:25:00like it's not gonna happen,
1:25:01and especially not like pen support with the Mini,
1:25:04if they ever do update the Mini.
1:25:05- The current state of the Mini is not good.
1:25:08They are only selling one model of it.
1:25:10It's the most expensive with the highest storage option.
1:25:14That is not a good sign, along with a lot of rumors
1:25:17that are saying they're getting rid of it.
1:25:18- Yeah, it really isn't a good sign.
1:25:20But looking at that UI for quickly being able
1:25:25to write a note, it feels like it's almost designed
1:25:29for someone to have a little notepad with them
1:25:32that they can write on.
1:25:34It feels so perfect, but it's not around, so.
1:25:38- So you know when you're a fan of a technology company,
1:25:41especially Apple, and someone in your life
1:25:46is upset at that company?
1:25:47And then they start treating you as if you're the issue here.
1:25:52- Yes, it's like, why are you getting rid of the Mini?
1:25:56Like, oh no, wait, wait.
1:25:58- You wanna argue on behalf of the company that you like,
1:26:01where it's like, you know, the argument that I had
1:26:05with Adina about this, not like we weren't
1:26:07showering each other, I was being Apple in this.
1:26:10And it's like, they know how many of these devices they sell
1:26:14and if they sold lots of iPad Minis,
1:26:16they would keep making the iPad mini.
1:26:18I think they're not selling a lot of iPad minis.
1:26:20And I know that there is this like,
1:26:22there is a cycle which you can argue
1:26:24that if you're not updating it, you're not gonna sell it.
1:26:26But I think they're smarter than that
1:26:28and they can look at trends over time.
1:26:30And I think the iPad mini used to sell really well,
1:26:33but over time has not so much.
1:26:35- Right.
1:26:36- And the iPad mini that Edina owns is my old iPad mini 2.
1:26:41And I had been trying to convince her for a long time
1:26:44to update that.
1:26:45And now we're at a point where updating it
1:26:47is a ridiculous thing to do.
1:26:49Because it is more expensive than the regular iPad now.
1:26:54It's like, it's like 400 or 500 pounds
1:26:56to buy an iPad mini right now.
1:26:58So I mean, the suggestion of maybe you should use
1:27:04the kitchen iPad, the iPad Air 2,
1:27:07that was not met very kindly as a solution.
1:27:11So I don't know what we're gonna do.
1:27:13- Yeah, it's interesting.
1:27:15I know a bunch of people who are fans of the iPad mini,
1:27:19like really big fans.
1:27:21- And it's only the same reaction that me and you had
1:27:24when we thought that like, where is our iPad, right?
1:27:27Like it's the same reaction of how dare you?
1:27:29- Yeah, it definitely is.
1:27:33That is just a long way of saying,
1:27:35one, I am said on a personal level twice
1:27:40that there is not a mini pro, because I know,
1:27:43that could not be the more perfect machine for my wife.
1:27:47And I also think there would be a real market
1:27:51for like a notebook size thing
1:27:54to make handwritten notes on.
1:27:56But I just don't think that's going to happen.
1:27:59- And the first rule of multi-pad club is more iPads.
1:28:02- Right, more iPads. - Right, like, you know,
1:28:03like a reason to own a third for a different use
1:28:06is only a good thing.
1:28:07- I personally would not get a mini Pro.
1:28:10I really wouldn't-- - Really?
1:28:11Okay. - I really wouldn't
1:28:12I wouldn't want it anyway. Like it's too close to the phone.
1:28:15Yeah, asterisk here. I love pencil support on the phone.
1:28:19Me too.
1:28:20And I'll tell you, not from my end, but someone in my household occasionally curses very loudly
1:28:26when she's using her iPad Pro with the pencil.
1:28:30You're giving it away now.
1:28:31No, I'm not giving anything away. She's using the iPad Pro, a 9.7, with her pencil
1:28:37and reaches over to tap something on her phone
1:28:41and it does nothing, it's like being shocked with electricity
1:28:45I really hope they do bring pencil support to the iPhone
1:28:49at some point, I'm not holding my breath but it would be nice
1:28:52but yeah so that is the situation
1:28:56I am planning on getting both of the new iPad pros
1:29:00at the same time? I am planning on getting them at the same time because
1:29:04what I want to do is I want to
1:29:06go back to the situation that I had before,
1:29:10when I had a smaller iPad Pro before it got used
1:29:13in another way, of having an ability to separate out
1:29:18different areas of my working life.
1:29:21And in particular, the place I really,
1:29:25the only place that I don't like the 12-9 is on the couch.
1:29:30I feel like it is too big of a machine
1:29:32to be using on the couch.
1:29:34I feel like it's almost a wall between you
1:29:37and the other people on the couch.
1:29:38It's too big of a screen.
1:29:40It's like distracting for the other person
1:29:42who's on the couch.
1:29:43It's the only place I don't like it.
1:29:44And that's where I would definitely wanna use
1:29:46a smaller machine.
1:29:47And when I had the 9-7, I always found that I was actually
1:29:51like a really great admin machine sitting on the couch.
1:29:55And so that is my plan for the 10-5,
1:29:58is to use it in that way and like in that situation,
1:30:01in particular in a few other things.
1:30:02but the 12.9 is still going to be my main general purpose computer that I use for everything
1:30:10that's not a specialized task.
1:30:13One thing though is I haven't actually seen a 12.9 yet and I'm a little bit scared of
1:30:19that because the 12.9 inch iPad has also gained the True Tone display.
1:30:27display the true tone display with the 120 megahertz refresh rate is gonna be
1:30:34bonkers so I'm worried that like I'm gonna go to the store to get my 10.5
1:30:41mm-hmm and I'm just gonna take a look at 12.9 right and walk out with both of
1:30:46them which I don't really want to do straight away. There's gonna be little sparkles around it, there's gonna be a little spotlight coming down from the
1:30:53ceiling happy music and you're not going to be able to resist is that your
1:30:56That is my concern. I mean I have my iPad fund because I got to save for longer than
1:31:04I was expecting for my refreshes. So the money is there anyway.
1:31:09Oh it's bought already.
1:31:11It's probably.
1:31:12We know how that is.
1:31:13I mean the reason is, is like I know I'm going to do it and it's my plan to refresh them
1:31:17both but it was I wanted to be able to spend more time with the newest hardware like the
1:31:23the 10.5 before having them both so I could really put the 10.5 through its paces.
1:31:30But we'll see how it ends up when I actually go to the store.
1:31:33Oh, new keyboards as well.
1:31:35So the 10.9 inch is obviously bigger.
1:31:38It's bigger.
1:31:39The keys are bigger.
1:31:40Have you played with this new smart keyboard at all?
1:31:43Yeah, I've had a chance to play with the smart keyboard on the 10.5.
1:31:49It looks bigger.
1:31:50I mean, when I look at it, I can see it's bigger.
1:31:53- Yeah, it's, I had an outside hope
1:31:56that maybe there'd be a way to use the 10.5
1:31:59as the main machine,
1:32:01because I really like the smart keyboard cover,
1:32:04but I have to have a full-size keyboard.
1:32:07It's a real deal breaker.
1:32:08The 10.5 smart keyboard, it's so close,
1:32:13but it's just maybe two centimeters too short,
1:32:18and that's just enough that when I start typing quickly,
1:32:21I start, like the number of mistakes goes up very, very fast.
1:32:25So I can't use that as a general purpose machine.
1:32:30I do love the lightness of it.
1:32:32It is a big win, 'cause the 12.9 is like
1:32:35just under my heaviness threshold.
1:32:37- It's a tank.
1:32:38- It is a total tank.
1:32:40If it was two tenths of a pound heavier,
1:32:41I would never use it, but I find it like it's,
1:32:46it's just under that threshold for me,
1:32:47so I'm totally fine and the trade-off of having a real full-size keyboard is completely worth it.
1:32:52If you're a person who found the old 9-7 smart keyboard just a little too small,
1:32:58you might be perfectly fine with it with the 10-5 keyboard. It is bigger,
1:33:01but it's just a little too small for me still.
1:33:04And there's like, you've seen this like sleeve?
1:33:08Oh yeah, yeah.
1:33:10This like, what I looked at and thought was a completely pointless thing, this leather sleeve.
1:33:15- Yeah, they showed that on screen at the keynote.
1:33:19I was like, "Well, that's dumb."
1:33:21And then I saw it in person.
1:33:22- And it looks real good.
1:33:24It's the equivalent of where you'd see an old desk
1:33:29and it would have a piece of leather built into the desk
1:33:31as the writing pad area.
1:33:33It reminds me of that. - Yeah, that's exactly it.
1:33:35Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
1:33:36- So you take your iPad out
1:33:37and you put your little leather sleeve down
1:33:39and you take the pencil out of the little well
1:33:41that they have for it.
1:33:42It's really nice.
1:33:43It's a nice accessory and it's,
1:33:45if I was ever gonna use something like that,
1:33:48it would be seen as like something
1:33:50to put in and out of a bag.
1:33:51- Yeah, that's it.
1:33:53The thing that made me reconsider that is,
1:33:56one, it looks really nice in person.
1:33:58It works with the cover of the iPad,
1:34:01which I never, I just assumed that it wouldn't, right?
1:34:03I thought like it would be a replacement
1:34:05for having the smart cover.
1:34:05- It's actually made for that.
1:34:07- Yeah.
1:34:08- That has been measured to be used
1:34:09with the keyboard cover attached.
1:34:10- Yeah, and that totally changes it
1:34:12because in my mind I just assumed,
1:34:14oh, this is not what it's for.
1:34:15It is an alternative cover.
1:34:17It's not meant to be used with a keyboard cover.
1:34:19So as soon as I realized that, like, that's great,
1:34:21because when I'm traveling in particular,
1:34:23that's one time I'm very aware
1:34:25of trying not to lose the pencil.
1:34:27And I feel like my brain is always on high alert
1:34:31about where's the pencil when I'm traveling.
1:34:34And that makes that case really nice,
1:34:37that I have a unit on an airplane that I can pull out.
1:34:40It has both pieces that I need.
1:34:42I can put both pieces back and slap it back into the suitcase when I'm done.
1:34:46So I think I'll pick up one of those for travel usage if nothing else.
1:34:51There is one other accessory which is just a leather cover case for the pencil.
1:34:59I think that's not going to happen.
1:35:02It's pointless and ridiculous.
1:35:03That's not going to happen.
1:35:04Like it doesn't change it in any way.
1:35:06Like it doesn't do anything.
1:35:07Like the pencil is this indestructible piece of acrylic plastic.
1:35:11It doesn't need protecting.
1:35:12- It doesn't.
1:35:13It's like, oh, we got scuffed.
1:35:14- Yeah, I'm incredibly rough on my hardware.
1:35:19I've never noticed anything with the pencil,
1:35:21like even scratches.
1:35:23And it's like, I'm rolling it through sand
1:35:25and gravel every day.
1:35:26I never notice anything.
1:35:27- Good, and on the construction site
1:35:29where the iPad is used.
1:35:30- Yeah.
1:35:31- The last, one of the last things on the multi-pad lifestyle
1:35:35and it is a tenet of the lifestyle
1:35:40is what happens to the previous devices.
1:35:43So if we both replace our current equipment,
1:35:47where do the old ones go?
1:35:50- I wish, I'm just looking around the room right now,
1:35:53we're in your room, I wish we were in my room
1:35:55because I would show you what my current
1:35:5812.9 inch iPad looks like.
1:36:01And it had a big drop like a year ago.
1:36:06- Oh.
1:36:08And I thought, oh, it totally dented out the corner.
1:36:13And I thought, ah, whatever, it's not a big deal.
1:36:15But over the months, what has been happening is
1:36:19the screen is slowly, slowly separating.
1:36:23- Uh-oh.
1:36:24- On my 12/9, and just like I kept thinking,
1:36:28oh, any day now, they'll release one.
1:36:30It's like, I would never have lived with this
1:36:32as a hardware problem for as long as I did,
1:36:34but I kept thinking, oh, I'm gonna be replacing
1:36:36this machine any day now.
1:36:38because it was like, oh, I'll play something in September.
1:36:39Oh, it'll be March.
1:36:40- Yeah, exactly, right.
1:36:41Oh, it'll be March, right, yeah.
1:36:43And if it's not March, it's like,
1:36:44well, it's gotta be WWDC, right?
1:36:46It's like, yeah.
1:36:47- God, you could be using that thing forever.
1:36:48- Yeah, it is the most banged up hardware that I have.
1:36:53So that 12.9 is not long for this world anyway,
1:36:57so that thing is going to nobody
1:36:59because it'll slice their hands open
1:37:01on the side where the screen is.
1:37:03So that thing is just gone.
1:37:05My wife is going to keep using the smaller iPad Pro
1:37:07because she doesn't want anything that's bigger.
1:37:09She already thinks that one is too big.
1:37:11So that'll stick around.
1:37:13So this is actually, for me,
1:37:14essentially a hardware replacement cycle.
1:37:16- Yeah, okay.
1:37:17But for me, I think I'm just gonna shuffle them
1:37:19down the line.
1:37:20So the current 9.7 will become the kitchen iPad.
1:37:23- Right, right.
1:37:24- Or it will become Adina's iPad if she can bear it.
1:37:27And then the current kitchen iPad, which is in there too,
1:37:30will go to another member of my family.
1:37:32At 12.9, I have no idea.
1:37:34I don't know what I'm gonna do with that yet.
1:37:35'cause I don't know if anyone will want it.
1:37:39Just because it's a specific device
1:37:41for a specific type of person.
1:37:43- Yeah, exactly.
1:37:44- And so I'll have to ask around family and friends
1:37:46if anybody wants to take it off my hands,
1:37:48the covered in sticker device that it is.
1:37:50- Yeah, I mean, it's funny.
1:37:53You say it's a specific device for a specific person,
1:37:56but I can't remember if I've mentioned on the show or not,
1:37:58but when that iPad Pro came out,
1:38:04In my family, we had a tech support decision
1:38:06which was transitioning my aunt from this MacBook
1:38:10that she had that was like an eight year old MacBook.
1:38:14- One of the plastic ones or a metal one?
1:38:16- Yeah, it was like, it was so old.
1:38:20It was so old that Apple would refuse
1:38:23to do any support on it.
1:38:25And it was a really interesting experience
1:38:27because her needs were so minimal for computing.
1:38:31and she just does web browsing and email.
1:38:34She doesn't even really do texts or anything.
1:38:37But when it came around to thinking like,
1:38:38oh, what are we gonna do with my aunt
1:38:40because this thing is not gonna make it
1:38:42until the next time I come and visit, right?
1:38:44It's like all the tech support builds up
1:38:46for every time I go to visit my family
1:38:48and we're realizing like it's not gonna last
1:38:51until the next time that I come so we have to do something.
1:38:55And I took a gamble with that and I decided,
1:38:58let's put my aunt on the 12.9 inch iPad Pro.
1:39:02Now she's the most unpro user in the world,
1:39:05and she loves that machine.
1:39:09It's so interesting to see that like,
1:39:12oh actually, on the reverse end of the spectrum,
1:39:16this is a perfect computer.
1:39:18It has a full size hardware keyboard,
1:39:23and if you set it up so there's just a couple buttons
1:39:25on the home screen, here's your email,
1:39:28Here's your web browser, here's some maps.
1:39:30- And no one can mess around with it, right?
1:39:33- There's no way it can be broken.
1:39:35The tech support requirement is minimum,
1:39:39and it has, like we were saying before,
1:39:41this feature of there's no drop-down menus to find stuff in.
1:39:45It's like everything is just on the screen to touch.
1:39:48So I have actually found like it's very interesting to me
1:39:53that my aunt has taken to that and totally loves it.
1:39:58And so in a weird way, it's actually a very good machine
1:40:02on the total reverse end of the spectrum.
1:40:05And she uses it just like a little laptop.
1:40:07I'm not 100% sure she knows the screen even comes off, right?
1:40:09But it's just a laptop to her.
1:40:12And she's like, "Oh, the software is different."
1:40:14And she's great.
1:40:15It was no problem at all.
1:40:16- Oh?
1:40:17- Yes, exactly.
1:40:18- My computer grew.
1:40:19- Yeah.
1:40:20- Is this what we wanna agree?
1:40:22Do you feel, do you feel,
1:40:25placated isn't the word, are you satisfied?
1:40:28I mean we spent a lot of time recently talking about
1:40:31that we were unhappy with the way that things are gonna,
1:40:34I've been kind of thinking about this,
1:40:36that like WWDC 2016 to WWDC 2017
1:40:41was an era of dissatisfaction and pessimism
1:40:44in the Apple community,
1:40:46which led to me and you rethinking
1:40:47how we wanted to move going forward.
1:40:49We felt like we were on all fronts losing.
1:40:52Right? Like even our Macs were losing out,
1:40:54which is the least important of our devices.
1:40:57And we kind of felt like the pro users of Apple
1:41:00were being left out in the cold.
1:41:02- It was a long walk through the valley of darkness.
1:41:05- Yeah. Like without a doubt.
1:41:07Like it's just been bad.
1:41:08But as you said earlier in the episode,
1:41:13WWDC 2017, everyone got everything they wanted.
1:41:17So how do you feel?
1:41:19So in our previous episode, I mentioned that if I got everything that I wanted, it would still not be enough.
1:41:28And here's the thing, that statement is true. I stand by that statement because what I want to see is not just,
1:41:41"Oh, we've had a magical year and everybody got everything they wanted," which, while
1:41:47I'm extremely happy, there is still that feeling of, like, some of this stuff just
1:41:50feels way overdue. Like, it should have been sooner. Like, seeing it now, I can understand
1:41:55maybe why, like, okay, multitasking, you were doing a UI refresh with it, like, I can see
1:42:00why these things took a long time, but nonetheless, there still is a little bit of a feeling of,
1:42:04like, "Okay, Apple, we're back on the level. You put on an amazing show, right? It's like
1:42:09Like you've got elephants and lions and magic boxes and it's great.
1:42:12You put on an amazing show and I'm like, I'm satisfied. I'm satisfied.
1:42:15Very happy and also satisfied. So I feel that way.
1:42:20It was a great WWDC.
1:42:21I really want to congratulate everybody who was working on it. Like it's,
1:42:24it's fantastic. I do have that feeling of,
1:42:28I will be truly happy when I see that it is less than two years until this
1:42:35happens again, like on my personal wish list for WWDC,
1:42:40the number one item was less than two years
1:42:44until the next major round of iPad improvements.
1:42:47And I have that feeling, but I can also say
1:42:53that I feel very confident that it won't be
1:42:57two years until that happens.
1:42:59- Why?
1:43:04because I don't think that the magic box
1:43:07with a gift for everybody was an accident.
1:43:10Like, thinking back over that keynote
1:43:12and looking at all of the things that they did,
1:43:15I didn't realize it until after the keynote was over
1:43:19how much of the stuff they talked about was future stuff.
1:43:24Right, like they wanted to hit everybody's got something.
1:43:28And it was like, hey, we've got new Macs today,
1:43:32but guess what, there's gonna be,
1:43:33is totally awesome, iMac Pro, it's coming out in December,
1:43:36right, and it's like, hey, we're working on a speaker,
1:43:38okay, that's coming out later in the year.
1:43:40And they went through everything
1:43:42so that everybody can feel happy,
1:43:44and that is such a departure
1:43:47from the normal Apple way of operating.
1:43:50- Of we'll wait 'til it's done.
1:43:52- Yeah, we'll wait 'til it's done
1:43:53and we'll tell you when it's available for sale right now.
1:43:56And I just, maybe I'm interpreting it wrong,
1:44:00but I really do feel like this was an intentional decision
1:44:03to have a total crowd pleaser
1:44:08and that is a great opportunity to be a reset button
1:44:12of like let's make everybody happy there's something for everybody
1:44:16and I am taking that as a very good sign that there's
1:44:20an internal reassessment in Apple of
1:44:23even if it's taking us longer to do stuff let's try to be better about
1:44:27communicating it at the very least
1:44:29and let's be aware of just updating stuff as we go along so
1:44:33I may be proven wrong in the future,
1:44:36but I feel very confident that it's not going to be
1:44:41two years until the next round.
1:44:42That I'm going to see you in San Jose next year
1:44:46and I'll be able to tick off that top box
1:44:49on this year's wish list if it's not gonna take
1:44:52two years for this to happen again.
1:44:53- I feel exactly the same as you,
1:44:55but a little bit more so in that
1:44:57I don't like having to be pessimistic all the time.
1:45:02Like it's not--
1:45:02It's terrible, it's no fun.
1:45:03- It's really frustrating and it's not happy
1:45:06and it makes me not enjoy my job as much.
1:45:10My job has inbuilt and it's so much enjoyment for me
1:45:12because I get to do and talk about the things that I love.
1:45:16Spending the last maybe nine months being annoyed
1:45:20and frustrated has made my job less fun.
1:45:23So I'm, my current feeling right now
1:45:27for the next 12 months is I'm gonna try
1:45:29and be as optimistic as I can
1:45:31because what I have in front of me right now
1:45:33is really exciting.
1:45:34- Yes.
1:45:35- 'Cause I've been given all the tools
1:45:36that I was looking for.
1:45:38So I'm gonna try and enjoy them as much as possible
1:45:41because I feel like that that is a thing that I can do.
1:45:43Like I always try,
1:45:45but last year was not really given anything.
1:45:47So it was really, it was like a stretch.
1:45:49You know, after the first like three or four, five months,
1:45:52it just got really tricky because it was like,
1:45:54okay, the software sucks,
1:45:56but at least I'm gonna get, oh no, new hardware.
1:45:57All right, then fine, I'll just,
1:45:59well, new iPhones is, oh no, all right,
1:46:01and I'll stick with the current,
1:46:02the way the iPhone looks.
1:46:03Like, really, we've got AirPods, which are fantastic.
1:46:08That's kind of it, really, like in the grand scheme of things
1:46:10the things that really surprised and made me happy
1:46:13in the past year, that was the big one.
1:46:16And everything else that I was hoping for,
1:46:18I had to wait a bit longer for.
1:46:21So now, I'm like, well I have all the stuff
1:46:23that I wanted now, they gave it to me in one day.
1:46:26And like, even the things that I'm not that hot on,
1:46:28Like the HomePod, the Siri speaker music thing,
1:46:32I just don't think is a product for me,
1:46:33that they're focusing way more on music,
1:46:36and I don't really consume music that way at home.
1:46:39- I'll just say, I have a suspicion about the HomePod
1:46:42that I've been like, I'm trying to push on everybody,
1:46:44which is, I think the name makes sense
1:46:48if you think that the direction that Apple is going is,
1:46:52this device right now is not its incantation
1:46:55of what it's going to be. - Oh, 100%.
1:46:56They're showing all the music stuff right now,
1:46:58because Siri isn't at the point where they want it to be.
1:47:01And it seems like even by the time this ships in December,
1:47:05the story could be really different.
1:47:07But just where they are today,
1:47:09they're focusing way more on the music aspect
1:47:11because that's the best feature of it
1:47:13because it's this incredible speaker.
1:47:15Like as they show it right now, it's not for me,
1:47:18but I'm sure it's actually a product for a lot of people.
1:47:21And if you listen to music at home,
1:47:23like just as a thing in your house, this looks fantastic.
1:47:27and I know people that have heard it,
1:47:29and I've read some stuff about people
1:47:30that have actually heard the thing,
1:47:31and for the money, it seems to be an incredibly good speaker
1:47:35but like for me, we like the Amazon Echo at home
1:47:39because of its integrations for services
1:47:41and Apple isn't at that point with this product yet,
1:47:44so I have no desire to change,
1:47:46but I'm not begrudging it
1:47:47because they're not standing on stage and saying like,
1:47:50this is our answer to the Echo, right?
1:47:54They showed the Echo on stage and they're like,
1:47:57they wanted to make a product that was a combination
1:47:59between a really great speaker like a Sonos
1:48:01and something smart like an Echo.
1:48:03And it seems to have that
1:48:04'cause you can do some serious stuff with it,
1:48:05but it's definitely not their answer to it, not yet.
1:48:08I believe, like you, that it will be
1:48:09because the clue's in the name.
1:48:11- Yeah, talking about what are we expecting in the future,
1:48:15I feel like the HomePod name is an arrow
1:48:19pointing in the direction of future development.
1:48:23- And it can do some stuff,
1:48:24like it can act as the base of your HomeKit devices.
1:48:28I can't remember the actual terminology Apple used,
1:48:30but effectively like the home server for those devices.
1:48:33It can do that where the Apple TV can currently do it.
1:48:35So like it has some functionality there.
1:48:37- Or an old iPad, which is my central server for it.
1:48:40- Mine is by accident.
1:48:42My kitchen iPad is by accident, my home HomeKit thing.
1:48:46But like, so it's got that stuff,
1:48:50but it's like, I'm not annoyed about this.
1:48:52Like what I wanted was Apple to give me something
1:48:55that I could replace my Echo with,
1:48:56but they didn't, but it's fine.
1:48:57'Cause I'll just keep using my Amazon Echo.
1:48:59I'm cool with it.
1:49:00But I know that if they wouldn't have given me
1:49:03the iPad stuff, my overall feeling would have been pessimism
1:49:06and I would have been really annoyed about the HomePod.
1:49:09- Right, right, yes, exactly.
1:49:10- Because that's what the last year has been,
1:49:11that every announcement that Apple has had
1:49:14has not been good enough
1:49:16because they weren't necessarily what I was looking for
1:49:19and they also hadn't given me anything else, right?
1:49:22And it's just like, there is an alternate universe where this WWDC keynote has,
1:49:27uh, you know, maybe no new iPads or like you're just missing a bunch of stuff,
1:49:33but they still have that kaleidoscope watch face and I would be burning down the
1:49:38world. Right?
1:49:39Do you know what the other thing is? I've recorded two shows,
1:49:41I've listened to two shows. Nobody talks about the opening video.
1:49:44Oh right. Yes, of course.
1:49:46Which was funny but in points kind of tone deaf.
1:49:50That video is going to come to bite Apple
1:49:54in the ass eventually, because someday
1:49:57they're going to have a major iCloud outage,
1:50:00and that is going to be the first thing
1:50:02that people on the internet remix.
1:50:04It's like, oh right, remember when you made the video
1:50:06about a big disaster at your data center?
1:50:08- Yeah, and then nobody can use their phones,
1:50:11and we start the apocalypse,
1:50:12but that's not being brought up where it would be usually,
1:50:15but we just haven't got time to criticize.
1:50:18Yeah, and it's also in the scope of things...
1:50:22I mean, just to touch back upon it briefly,
1:50:26I think maybe the worst decision that Apple made when we were in the Valley of Darkness
1:50:30was releasing the book about how fantastic all of their products are.
1:50:34I think that is maybe the most tone-deaf thing Apple has ever done in the history of the company.
1:50:38It's like, "Guys, hold off that book
1:50:42just until after this WWDC."
1:50:46And it's like, that is an example of like,
1:50:50it seems like you're showing off a bunch of stuff
1:50:52while you've got nothing to back it up.
1:50:55And something like with this WWDC, it's like,
1:50:59okay, is that first video a little tone deaf?
1:51:01Is that kaleidoscope watch face
1:51:03maybe the worst thing I've ever seen?
1:51:05But it doesn't, like you're willing to go totally past it
1:51:08because it's like, look at that sexy iMac Pro.
1:51:11Like, ah, here's a dumb video, whatever, like who cares?
1:51:13"Oh my god, you put new processors in a MacBook Pro already?
1:51:16It's only been six months!"
1:51:18- And so it's this feeling like
1:51:20when you're doing amazing things,
1:51:22the people who like your products
1:51:24are also willing to cut you a lot of runway.
1:51:26And if you're just silent and doing nothing
1:51:29and everything is unhappy,
1:51:31then the story turns to like everything you do
1:51:33is a PR disaster and a waste of resources.
1:51:36So I feel like Apple has bought themselves
1:51:38a lot of runway with this WWDC.
1:51:41And it's also because of that signaling
1:51:42I feel confident that they're going to do more stuff in the future.
1:51:46And I'm viewing this as like, reset WWDC.
1:51:49I'm very I'm just really I'm relieved.
1:51:52Yeah, because I was dreading like I was just really on so many fronts,
1:51:57dreading it, right?
1:51:58It's like I'm not going to get the tools that I want to do my work
1:52:02and I'm going to have to spend months more being just really frustrated.
1:52:06Yeah. And I have to say.
1:52:09Other thing I've really liked about that that keynote,
1:52:12going back to what we were talking about,
1:52:13being in San Jose with everybody,
1:52:15everybody's in such a good mood.
1:52:17- Yeah.
1:52:18- It's like, you can tell every person who is here
1:52:23is super happy.
1:52:25Everybody has something,
1:52:26everybody has excited things to talk about.
1:52:28It's like the whole mood of the Apple community,
1:52:32which is orbiting around that convention center,
1:52:34is like, everybody is great.
1:52:36Whereas I remember last year,
1:52:38there was really that feeling of like,
1:52:40"Ooh, stickers, a scraper, like what's happening?"
1:52:44Where were the things?
1:52:46It was a totally different mood when you talk to people
1:52:49versus this year.
1:52:50And this year, it has made being in San Jose
1:52:53genuinely more enjoyable,
1:52:54'cause everybody's excited about something
1:52:56and wants to talk about something.
1:52:58So well done, Apple.
1:53:00- Yeah.
1:53:01- Thanks to Myke for setting up this thing in person.
1:53:04- Wasn't too bad, right?
1:53:05- Which has been a little weird.
1:53:06- But it's been fine.
1:53:08It's been easier than I was expecting.
1:53:11I think maybe actually this has made it a little bit more
1:53:15like our lunches actually are.
1:53:17I feel like this conversation has been a bit more casual
1:53:20than other conversations.
1:53:22But--
1:53:23- So we start looking into some--
1:53:24- Don't count on this in the future is what I'm saying.
1:53:27Don't count on this in the future.
1:53:29All right man, we gotta go.
1:53:30There's more WWDC.
1:53:31More things to do.
1:53:33More things to do.
1:53:35- Thanks for the horrible audio there.
1:53:37- Yeah.
1:53:38Let's go. Let's get out of here.